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flowoftime feedback thread

Started by flowoftime, March 09, 2014, 08:52:40 am

Onisake

I'm going to try to type less. trying to carefully explain myself doesn't seem to be working.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
So your argument is that "you guys should take it out of the game because I don't like it in there." No one is forcing you to try to achieve anything. Are you incapable of making a clear and concentrated choice? Because what you're saying is literally that. Your argument is not objective in the least, it is entirely a nitpick that you have with how things are being done.


My argument is that you guys should take it out because you don't want it there. Raven has said, in several places, that he doesn't expect you to have access to advanced jobs in chapter 1. I haven't read every single one of his posts. but most of them state this.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
You want things to be done one way, when they're being done in another. There is literally no difference in the effect on the player aside from what you're nitpicking about. If anything, I'd argue it another way and say that I prefer it this way because if I choose to, I can get a little taste of what I can expect to have in future chapters.


I want things to be designed well and have balance. is that really an unreasonable request? the only thing imbalanced is the rate at which you gain JP.

the fact we  have access to jobs you don't want us to have access to is completely different argument.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
No, what you've gathered from what I said is quite different from what I've actually said.


This is true. what you said implies something different to me than what you thought it meant in your head.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
Clearly you do not, because I actually did read what you wrote. A misunderstanding does not automatically give one a pass to be a pompous ass.


so instead of actually answering my questions you decide to argue about things that weren't even the meat of my argument? ok..

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
No, it's been stated that you should not expect to have them without an excessive amount of grinding in Chapter 1.


It's also been stated if you get too high in levels, monster battles become increasingly difficult because you lack the gear to close the power gap.

you soft cap how much you can grind. but then say i'm free to grind? there is a flaw in that logic.

It's one thing to say you have to excessively grind. it's another to say you have to excessively grind AND effectively screw yourself in every other random encounter you have

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
Because I would assume it's implied that you're simply playing the game instead of going out of your way to unlock everything. If you were, you wouldn't know anything about Animists and what have you.


isn't unlocking everything also playing the game? playing the game isn't ONLY story progression.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
What.

On this, we can agree.


what what?

you agreed with my point directly after that, but disagree with the point that it's founded on?



Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
Have you tried using the Attack command.


I don't really like putting my wizard and priest on the front line. considering they have lower HP, lower defense, and have little means of protecting themselves because they are fundamentally back-line classes. the attack command on them isn't really the first thing I think of.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
That's not what I said. What I said was that I could easily produce a video that disproves your notion that everyone is forced to be a self-sufficient hybrid, where you can't have a cohesive team.


They are the same thing. prior to level 10 you only really have access to your base class and chemist. by their very nature, having these two skill sets makes everyone a self-sufficient hybrid.

you can't begin to focus on specialized roles  until after you have leveled chemist and gain access to more specialized abilities from other jobs.

Cloud is the only character that doesn't have some means of keeping themselves alive. Flipper for Dante, Ramza and his many abilities, Link with his heal/saria song, snake with smoke break.

Dante has the option of going full offense, provided you stay away from his self-sustain abilities. but given that everyone starts with item subskill, everyone starts as a self-sustaining hybrid.

Jumza

(I'm going to try and address some things without actually having read everything :P, I feel like this might be getting a little out of hand here guys)
Also please refrain from double posting! The edit button is always there to use!

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
My argument is that you guys should take it out because you don't want it there. Raven has said, in several places, that he doesn't expect you to have access to advanced jobs in chapter 1. I haven't read every single one of his posts. but most of them state this.


Key word being expect. If you would like Ninja's on your team in chapter 1, go for it! But this will make the game more difficult for you because of the grinding necessary to get what you want.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I want things to be designed well and have balance. is that really an unreasonable request? the only thing imbalanced is the rate at which you gain JP.

the fact we  have access to jobs you don't want us to have access to is completely different argument.

I think the game is designed well and is also well balanced. But that's my opinion, and you not thinking so is yours. We aren't going to change things because one person hasn't enjoyed the system that's been put in place. Obviously we can't create something that appeals to everyone, that is literally impossible. There is always going to be one person who just doesn't like it for whatever reason. As long as a lot of people like it, I don't see the problem.

We want you to have access to the jobs, we don't expect you to because it's so early in the game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's also been stated if you get too high in levels, monster battles become increasingly difficult because you lack the gear to close the power gap.

you soft cap how much you can grind. but then say i'm free to grind? there is a flaw in that logic.

It's one thing to say you have to excessively grind. it's another to say you have to excessively grind AND effectively screw yourself in every other random encounter you have

If you grind, expect the difficulty to increase because you are making your characters better equipped to deal with it. If you found you've been grinding and haven't prepared yourself to deal with the expected spike in difficulty, then stop grinding. It's become counter productive, and is a bit like hitting yourself in a battle to gain exp, and then just simply continuing to do so until you die.

Please Note: You don't have to grind to win the game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
isn't unlocking everything also playing the game? playing the game isn't ONLY story progression.


The game is incomplete, and as a result unlocking what's been implemented is difficult. Expect there to be more the game can offer in the next release, and expect it to be easier to get the more advanced jobs.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I don't really like putting my wizard and priest on the front line. considering they have lower HP, lower defense, and have little means of protecting themselves because they are fundamentally back-line classes. the attack command on them isn't really the first thing I think of.

Good thing the game has ways that allow you to get around this!
A) Use something that doesn't require you to go to panels next to enemies! The 5 have their own jobs that have skills that you can put in as as a secondary, and generics (and the 5) can use Item
B) Grab a crystal from an enemy not wearing that annoying accessory that stops them from being crystallized

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
prior to level 10 you only really have access to your base class and chemist. by their very nature, having these two skill sets makes everyone a self-sufficient hybrid.

Unless you make someone a chemist early on and give them access to other jobs before level 10. I know some people like the base jobs, but you really have to branch out and customize your units to beat the game. That very limited self-sufficient hybrid isn't going to get you very far :P

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
you can't begin to focus on specialized roles  until after you have leveled chemist and gain access to more specialized abilities from other jobs.

Indeed. Good observation.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
everyone starts as a self-sustaining hybrid.

As much as I love the base jobs, I have to suggest use of Black Magic and White Magic and the other jobs skillsets. It just makes the game easier because you have more options!
  • Modding version: PSX
Nyzer: Alma teleports out of her own possessed body.
Raijinili: Remember that you're telling a modding community that the game they love could use some fixing.

RavenOfRazgriz

March 12, 2014, 06:19:49 pm #62 Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 06:55:07 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: formerdeathcorpsI think you're overgeneralizing from your own personal experience.  For the record, my units were 5 levels lower than yours when I beat Chapter I, and I'm sure Raven can probably do it at Level 18.  It all depends on how much care you put into analyzing the enemy.


I didn't read this massive textwall of a thread I came back to yet but I saw this.

I beat Chapter 1 of Jot5 (in the 1.0 release state, which was noticeably harder than the current version) with a party level average of 9-10 after Ganon Part 2, without performing any nonessential battles for Gil or JP or drawing out any essential battles for farming purposes, without ever entering the Job Change screen (meaning I only ever had Base+Chemist), without using Move-Find Item, without using the Soldier Office, buying every skill in the order of cheapest to most expensive at the first possible opportunity, and with only 1 reset on Ganon 2.

Yes, I made the damn game (at least in this regard), but uh, yeah.  Most video playthroughs (and non-video playthroughs that I've been made aware of) come out at about Level 15 at the end of Chapter 1.  20 seems to be the upper-end if you've been grinding.

3lric

March 12, 2014, 06:59:48 pm #63 Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:07:37 pm by Elric
Quote
Due to the limitations of the RPG genre, time, game balance, and our understanding of the code, we must allow certain "small" deviations between mechanics and story (such as Dante being able to learn a stealth generic class like thief despite it being against his nature) or Cloud being able to use ribbons in his generic class (while as a knight, he cannot), but any "large" or "global" disruption needs to have a storyline justification.


Don't forget about that fact that Link will totally have speech boxes when he casts spells that have them :U

This mod sucks, I quit

If anyone has any STORY or SCRIPT related things they would like to give feedback on, I would totally have more fun with this thread.

I don't even understand what's going on in this thread anymore (then again I don't even understand basic formulas, hence Raven...)
All I know is I somehow beat the entire Chapter 1 back in Beta without very much issue on any fight other than that fucking Chicken.

EDIT:
I did laugh at the "lazy" thing a bit though. I can assure you his "lol" was NOT out of embarrassment, but out of pure humor.
Even when I feel like I've done a lot it generally goes:

Me: Raven, I did 3 events this week, what did you do
Raven: Fucking EVERYTHING :U

(For anyone who didn't know, Raven's workload is seriously ridiculous)

Sorry, I know this last bit was pointless, but I personally found it very funny XD

Quote
we're seeing bleed in from FFT, FF7, and from across dimensions having Dante, Snake, and link appear in Ivalice. The balance of the world is clearly being upset. it isn't that unreasonable to see drastic changes happening to the world between chapters. maybe it starts to merge with other worlds. at this point the same reasoning can be used when you started the game. the characters are now in a 'different' world. it's no longer Ivalice. but Ivalice+Hyrule or w/e.


¯\(º_o)/¯
  • Modding version: PSX

Dome

This massive Tl:Dr topic is becoming the spam of Jot5
Really

Stop this madness before it's too late!

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

kyozo22

I know, can't believe you guys were so shoddy with your details... Dunno why I'm even bothering to respond to these. :P

Actually, being serious for a second, there's one issue I've had regarding the script. In the scene at Lionel when the gang are given a clue to go to Goug, Link and Dante head outside. Link says "Stones" and Dante responds with "Son of a..."

In all the times I've played this mod, not once have I understood that section. I'm assuming it's something to do with Link saying that Dante has no balls?
  • Modding version: WotL

3lric

March 12, 2014, 07:16:21 pm #66 Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 07:28:07 pm by Elric
Quote from: Dome on March 12, 2014, 07:09:17 pm
This massive Tl:Dr topic is becoming the spam of Jot5
Really

Stop this madness before it's too late!


* Elric silences Dome


Shhh! I'm waiting to see if something I can actually do something about or contribute to comes up.

EDIT:
See? I told you something would V V
EDIT:

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 12, 2014, 07:16:09 pm
I know, can't believe you guys were so shoddy with your details... Dunno why I'm even bothering to respond to these. :P

Actually, being serious for a second, there's one issue I've had regarding the script. In the scene at Lionel when the gang are given a clue to go to Goug, Link and Dante head outside. Link says "Stones" and Dante responds with "Son of a..."

In all the times I've played this mod, not once have I understood that section. I'm assuming it's something to do with Link saying that Dante has no balls?


//Message x11
{font:08}Dante{br}
{font:00}There you are!{br}
{br}
We've been searching{br}
the whole damn castle{br}
for you guys!!{br}
This one even got me{br}
up early to help{br}
him find you!{end}

//Message x12
{font:08}Link{br}
{font:00}...{end}

//Message x13
{font:08}Dante{br}
{font:00}!!!{end}

//Message x14
{font:08}Link{br}
{font:00}Stones?{end}

//Message x15
{font:08}Dante{br}
{font:00}Why that little...!{end}


Dante does his whole little complaint, and Link completely ignores it since they said they would discuss everything in the morning and Link
is still curious about the stone given to him by the Cloaked Stranger in Golgorand. He doesn't give a fuck about ANYTHING right now other
than finding out how this is connected to Zelda. Which is why we see Link charge into the gate at 900miles an hour out of excitement to be
on their way to Goug.

Dante being the self-centered mofo that he is is a bit irritated over the fact that after taking precious time out of his morning to help his little pointy
eared buddy find Ramza and Co., he doesn't get so much as a fist bump.

Or something like that. 

  • Modding version: PSX

kyozo22

Quote from: Elric on March 12, 2014, 07:16:21 pm

EDIT:
See? I told you something would V V
EDIT:


Of course! You did ask,after all. :P

btw, fucking AWESOME summary there. Entertaining. :D
  • Modding version: WotL

Advent

March 12, 2014, 07:58:09 pm #68 Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 08:21:50 pm by Advent
Bro, do you even quote? Everything you quoted me as saying in the first of those two posts was said by FDC, not me.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
My argument is that you guys should take it out because you don't want it there. Raven has said, in several places, that he doesn't expect you to have access to advanced jobs in chapter 1. I haven't read every single one of his posts. but most of them state this.


Right, but there is nothing objective (or reasonable, given limitations) about what you are asking. If you could lay out a cohesive (again, objective) argument about why -- mechanically -- leaving all those jobs in there but not expecting you to use them (yet) is bad, you'd be in a good spot. You have yet to do so.

And for the record, so there's no confusion on your part, Onisake, I am not part of the Jot5 team. I simply played a lot of it when Chapter 1 had just been released.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I want things to be designed well and have balance. is that really an unreasonable request? the only thing imbalanced is the rate at which you gain JP.


Designed "well" is subjective, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's also been stated if you get too high in levels, monster battles become increasingly difficult because you lack the gear to close the power gap.


There is a saying we have on the insanelyderpy boards regarding 1.3 that applies here: you can grind, but be aware that the enemies will grind with you.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's one thing to say you have to excessively grind. it's another to say you have to excessively grind AND effectively screw yourself in every other random encounter you have


You don't "have" to grind at all. The entirety of Chapter 1 is perfectly beatable with everyone in their base job with Item secondary.

That said, that may not be very fun for a lot of people. I for one grinded pretty heavily, mostly because I wanted to see some more of the new jobs. Sweegy gave me a hard time, and Ganon's minions claimed my lifeless corpse. However, I realize that that's a direct result of my actions, and not just the game design being bad. If I went through Jot5 again, I'm sure I could easily take Ganon down.

To say that you have to excessively grind -- or grind at all, for that matter -- is simply spurious.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
isn't unlocking everything also playing the game? playing the game isn't ONLY story progression.


'Kay. We can play this game.

Let's continue the slight trend and use Dark Souls as an example.

Most people would constitute "playing the game" as progressing, exploring, etc. It would be going throughout the game itself at a somewhat normal pace.

Unlocking everything, in this context, would be staying in the Upper Undead Burg and grinding on Undead Soldiers until you were SL 80 or higher.

See the difference?

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
you agreed with my point directly after that, but disagree with the point that it's founded on?


I agree with the fact that JP gain can be at times annoyingly low, but disagree with the premise that it's a balance issue.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I don't really like putting my wizard and priest on the front line. considering they have lower HP, lower defense, and have little means of protecting themselves because they are fundamentally back-line classes. the attack command on them isn't really the first thing I think of.


Dude. The Attack command is the most powerful thing in the entire game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
They are the same thing. prior to level 10 you only really have access to your base class and chemist. by their very nature, having these two skill sets makes everyone a self-sufficient hybrid.


Because it's not like you have the ability to not play them as hybrids, and instead use them as a cohesive team, right?

Jumza

  • Modding version: PSX
Nyzer: Alma teleports out of her own possessed body.
Raijinili: Remember that you're telling a modding community that the game they love could use some fixing.

3lric

  • Modding version: PSX

flowoftime

Hey, Mods. Why don't you answer my questions:
1. What's LP stand for? Videos?
2. Did you work on AI Coding? I found that your AI Coding isn't so different from the Vanilla. Is it just me or most of the enemies usually charge me ALONE without forming a group and can easily be banged into slaughtering? Bosses are exception since they're freakingly broken.
3. Why don't you add accessories that prevent Poison, Charm and Confusion? Is it because we're still at Chapter 1(a Chapter with Bad Breath, Venom/Poison, Charm and Confusion)? Bad Status without a prevention accessories = fun?

3lric

I am not a mod... A mod is what I work on, I'm an admin.

1. Let's Play...
2. No
3. Yes
  • Modding version: PSX

formerdeathcorps

2. Only three people have read the AI code.  Me, Glain, and SA.  None of us are primary coders for Jot5.
3. Totally unnecessary.
Poison is cured by Heal (you have Ramza).
Charm can be dispelled by attacking your own units.  Just because the AI is too stupid to do this properly doesn't mean you have to be.
Confuse can be removed in the same way as charm, but it's actually good for you because you can use it to exploit the AI.  A confused unit will not be directly targeted by the AI unless the AI can 1HKO him or he walks into the AoE range of an AI attack.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Advent

March 13, 2014, 08:38:15 am #74 Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 09:29:07 am by Advent
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 13, 2014, 07:18:22 am
3. Totally unnecessary.
Poison is cured by Heal (you have Ramza).
Charm can be dispelled by attacking your own units.  Just because the AI is too stupid to do this properly doesn't mean you have to be.
Confuse can be removed in the same way as charm, but it's actually good for you because you can use it to exploit the AI.  A confused unit will not be directly targeted by the AI unless the AI can 1HKO him or he walks into the AoE range of an AI attack.


But FDC you don't understand. I need the ability to outright prevent it! I need unisex Ribbons at the beginning of Chapter 1!

In all seriousness, I agree. Chapter 1 isn't hard as it is; you want it to be even easier with status immunity to everything?

Edit: I know Jot5's not a difficulty mod, but for Christ's sake, you don't want it to be as easy as Vanilla, right? >.>

kyozo22

Quote from: Advent on March 13, 2014, 08:38:15 am
But FDC you don't understand. I need the ability to outright prevent it! I need unisex Ribbons at the beginning of Chapter 1!

In all seriousness, I agree. Chapter 1 isn't hard as it is; you want it to be even easier with status immunity to everything?

Edit: I know Jot5's not a difficulty mod, but for Christ's sake, you don't want it to be as easy as Vanilla, right? >.>


I certainly don't, but given our vanilla mod of choice, we may well be somewhat biased.
  • Modding version: WotL

Advent

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 13, 2014, 10:08:56 am
I certainly don't, but given our vanilla mod of choice, we may well be somewhat biased.


I just don't see how anyone could find the difficulty (or lack thereof) of Vanilla to be enjoyable.

flowoftime

I thought Mod(s) = Moderator(s)?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 13, 2014, 07:18:22 am
2. Only three people have read the AI code.  Me, Glain, and SA.  None of us are primary coders for Jot5...


Too bad, no changes in AI Coding. I bet that was the very reason Raven gave monster broken skills... to add difficulty and balance things up.

Bad AI Code + Broken Skills = Fair.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 13, 2014, 07:18:22 am
...3. Totally unnecessary.
Poison is cured by Heal (you have Ramza).
Charm can be dispelled by attacking your own units.  Just because the AI is too stupid to do this properly doesn't mean you have to be.
Confuse can be removed in the same way as charm, but it's actually good for you because you can use it to exploit the AI.  A confused unit will not be directly targeted by the AI unless the AI can 1HKO him or he walks into the AoE range of an AI attack.


Curing bad status = wasting a turn, thus giving the enemies an advantage to deplete/reduce your HP/MP.

I agree that we're still at Chapter 1(a Chapter with many enemies-inflicting bad status effect(s)). It's not that I need those accessories preventing status, I just feel annoyed by those toads/frogs... Bad Breath and Venom Strike are just too awesome to make my day!

Nevertheless, I beat the game with ease...

formerdeathcorps

Quote
Curing bad status = wasting a turn, thus giving the enemies an advantage to deplete/reduce your HP/MP.


That would be a problem in an AI tournament or a PvP game where the level of intellect on both sides is equal.  However, in PvAI, your human brain is clearly superior to the AI.  You occasionally wasting a turn healing status is far outweighed by the AI wasting a turn almost 50% of the time.  There's no need to worry.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Choto

Quote from: Advent on March 13, 2014, 10:11:51 am
I just don't see how anyone could find the difficulty (or lack thereof) of Vanilla to be enjoyable.


I used to enjoy hack and slashing of vanilla when I was a kid. When I experienced them for the first time, the mustadio and velius fights were actually an adequate difficulty. Of course now they can be made trivial... Everybody has their tastes though, I doubt there's a one-difficulty-fits-all with FFT mods.