Final Fantasy Hacktics

Projects => Completed Mods => FFT Arena => Topic started by: FFMaster on July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Title: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm
NOTE: Balance debates only. If you think your change warrants its own thread, go for it.

Master Guide (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6483.0)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 13, 2010, 11:51:44 pm
Updated tables to have RSM and JP costs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 14, 2010, 01:21:18 am
Okay, so I'll try to give first impressions without ruminating this too much:


That's it for now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 14, 2010, 01:37:54 am
2 - maybe some other time. Most of them follow 1.3, so check those for now.
3 - I'm not sure either, guess we will see after the tourney
4 - I agree
5 - Greased Bolt works. It adds Chicken until the unit gets hit by something, or Regen/Move HP/MP Up/Poison activates.
6 - Odin I think is too strong, we are now thinking of making it a mass Death attack. like 25-30% death, or miss.
7 - yeah, i know the mistakes, but i'm just too tired right now to fix.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 15, 2010, 05:50:15 am
Updated again. Mostly its the same though. Hopefully, nobody has any huge objections.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on July 15, 2010, 05:00:24 pm
Seems decent, though some of the stronger abilities look kinda cheap, such as some of the powerful summons, maybe even the Sage skills, seeing as they hit the entire board 100%. But... F(MA*4 and 5) seems very weak... I'm guessing around 18-30 damage is the range? Well, I guess seeing as it's the whole map that seems fair. Never mind this.

Leviathan seems to weak, even for having that much range... but I guess that's not going to change. Silf is far more useful than Titan at this point, as it silences or Don't Acts. Maybe Titan could get Don't Move or Silf could get a slight nerf of F(MA*18)?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 15, 2010, 10:00:04 pm
I have to agree with Zaen, especially since I'm still surprised to see Concentrate so cheap.

Otherwise, all of the Equip X abilities outside of Equip Armor, Equip Gun and perhaps Equip Shield could stand to be a cheaper.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on July 16, 2010, 10:03:12 am
Is there a typo on Cure 4? It says AoE 0 but still has Vert 3.

Also, Repeating Fist is worthless, as it's completely outclassed by Wave Fist.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 16, 2010, 01:30:17 pm
Unless it's 100% hit like in 1.3. Which I assume is the case.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on July 16, 2010, 01:37:51 pm
Whoops, my error. It is 100% hit. And Cure4 should have have infinite vert... I think.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on July 17, 2010, 02:06:05 am
Can anyone explain the limitations on throw? i.e are all items that are on the list available to be thrown?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 17, 2010, 02:11:43 am
No limitations. Anything on the Weapon Lists pretty much. Except Knight Swords, which I removed.

EDIT: Removed the Random Hits flags for Nameless Dance and Nameless Song.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 17, 2010, 08:33:35 pm
Few notes about the new sage stuff:

1) Its set to persevere; intentional?
2) Silence doesn't stop it.
3) Evadeable, although not noted above
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 17, 2010, 09:11:40 pm
1) Intentional
2) Silence stops it now
3) They weren't supposed to be evadable. Fixed now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 19, 2010, 01:31:46 pm
minor theorycrafting points, that I'd like to be watched for in this beta tourney:

1) Lore is... lackluster.  It -barely- edges out Wiznaibus in damage-per-tick, but is marred by MP cost so it can't be sustainable forever (even on a summoner / half MP unit and such).  Its best use basically requires an entire team setup around it, with one of two facets.  The first is elemental absorbing (black costume + flame shield, e.g.) to make it basically BOTH life song and wiznaibus at the same time -- which is pretty sick in one sense, and I'm sure with some tweaking with MP restoration (2x both with absorbed use MP?) it can sustain itself for a long duration.  The second would be using the party damaging facet and slap all your own people with stuff like Speed and MA save and just go to town with it, probably coupled with poor compat and/or low faith on some units and/or half:element options.  Which, also, is quite effective in the theoretical sense and I almost submitted a team to that tune.  I just don't like a skillset being both borderline broken or a liability given the rest of the group, with Lore itself being the archstone.  

1a) Suggest gutting it and inserting something like a blue mage, red mage, gladiator(?), Mystic Knight, or other job-like from the spectrum.

2) While I am a bit proud that y'all are incorporating many things from ASM'd into the PvP patch, the movement thing really needs to be addressed.  One, in that the current pool is waaay too small and/or ineffective, with move HP and move MP probably being the best of the bunch.  ASM'd includes both move+1 and move+2 in its repitoire, and tbh half-expects the user to have them on many units which is why the 2 move is present in the first place.  If you remove movement-buffing abilities, I highly suggest going back to the 3/4 scheme.  

3) Masamune is too awesome, but I don't know how to fix it.  With the given range/movement/map size, its reasonable to expect 3/4 of the team to be both hasted and regened (with awesome synergy) once the fighting actually starts.  Plus its instant with no MP cost.  It completely replaces Time Magic and offers healing and offensive action all in a single skillset.  Maybe there's something we can do with the seperate flag?  25% Regen and 25% Haste might suck too much, though.

4) I don't think Silf needs to spit out that much damage and have a status proc on top of it.  

5) Given the current unlock scheme, oracle seems like an awesome combo as far as JP goes with both Def Up and Move MP-Up.  Suggest giving Move MP-Up to summoners as an ability.

5a) Possibly re-adjust the unlock price/JP costs/JP cap.  I was able to get primary, secondary, and R/S/M from five different jobs for many prelim builds, complete with 1-4 action abilities per slot.  Is that the target?
5b) 500 JP for Ultima?  too high imo.

6) Bards and Dancers shouldn't have 3 movement.  High mobility means you run into the enemy headfirst.  These classes don't need to do this, but do it anyways thanks to AI.  2 movement is far more fitting, unless the 3 is specifically because you don't want them to be fully effective.  

Think that's it for now >_>

edit:  7) Always:protect and shell are too good, imo.  coupled with def up or MDU, that's an effective hp boost of 50% (I think I did the reverse math right?).  So on a knight with a knight sword and coupled opposite has an effective HP pool of... 718.  But with  479 base HP this also means he's regenning 48 HP a turn with move HP Up, and 60 HP with regen thanks to masamune.  That... is a literally a brick wall.

I did the same thing with my dancers for this tourney :)  330 HP with both protect and magic Def up?  Its awesome.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on July 19, 2010, 05:12:06 pm
*hides from philsov's brick wall dancers*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 20, 2010, 07:52:51 pm
hee.

Also!  back to the movement thing.  

Exhibit A:  Cluster of death, and 2 movement units can't go through a stack of corpses.  Thankfully everyone had range in some form or fashion, but that's because all the melee killed each other.

[attachment=0:3b8sw80c]movement.PNG[/attachment:3b8sw80c]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 21, 2010, 10:27:49 am
Out of curiosity, what ability slots did you use for Lore? I'm asking this because the Charging animation for them looks...interesting.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on July 21, 2010, 12:19:01 pm
They're all blank slots.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 21, 2010, 12:46:27 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Out of curiosity, what ability slots did you use for Lore? I'm asking this because the Charging animation for them looks...interesting.

Looks like the ones immediately after Parasite.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 22, 2010, 11:09:30 am
Since R999 pointed this out in the tournament thread, I have to ask this: Did you remember to flag Kiyomori and Masamune as Random with the regards to the AI flags?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 22, 2010, 07:36:20 pm
Nothing has Random Hits flag.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 23, 2010, 01:56:35 am
This explains so much with regards to Masamune....

That's good to know. Would you be willing to change that after we end this current test tournament?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 23, 2010, 02:26:36 am
I honestly do not like Random Hits. Either way, it would make the AI dumb. Random Hits is why Kanbabrif doesn't spam Banish every turn. People wouldn't use it whether or not it has Random Hits. Those abilities will have to be remade. Sigh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on July 23, 2010, 09:48:59 am
So the list of stuff that needs to be "fixed" is...

Kiyomori
Masamune
Nameless Dance
?Nameless Song?

???

I dislike the random hits flag, too.  I'd rather these things be weaker but worthwhile than zomg the AI -might- use them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 23, 2010, 10:31:13 am
If you're talking about stuff that needs to be "fixed" via Random (or some other presently unknown solution), then yes, only those four abilities seem to be the only ones that need to changed.

If you're not then, then obviously more things like Last Dance, Last Song and Life Drain would be qualifying.

As for disliking the random hits flag, isn't the whole point of doing this test out how AI would perform with certain abilities in AI tournaments? Why immediately discount it when it's the easiest, most sensible solution?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on July 23, 2010, 01:41:48 pm
I hate the random hits flag, as philsov pointed out, I'd rather have a weaker and usable ability than an ability the AI -might- use. AI with random hits flags is pretty much the same as banning an ability, because the AI is on average never going to use it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on July 23, 2010, 04:17:00 pm
Ultima needs fixing as well, it's values are all out of whack. Here's how it stacks up against 2nd tier black magic (it's closest match in terms of current power level)

It has lower power then a tier 2 black magic spell (17 vs. 18)

It has no AoE (versus black magic with AoE of 1)

Much higher mp cost (30 for Ultima versus 12 for Black Magic)

Longer CT (5 for Ultima versus 3 for Black Magic)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 23, 2010, 05:18:30 pm
Don't forget about JP cost (500? vs 180).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on July 23, 2010, 06:56:51 pm
@CT5
that's a good point as well, if we go by jp cost, we SHOULD be comparing Ultima to a Tier 4 black magic spell.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 01, 2010, 05:53:11 am
Right now, the only thing Ultima has over the other spells is the fact that it is unevadable. But yeah, it really needs major buffs. I was thinking of making it not Faith based, as well as making an Ultima 1/2/3, to give it a few uses over Black Magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 01, 2010, 11:54:59 am
oh, and another thing, Quick should probably be flagged such that it cannot target the caster, because otherwise the AI will simply spam quick on itself (the casting unit) until it runs out of mp.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 02, 2010, 07:47:00 pm
Updated all stats and skillset tables. Take a good look.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 02, 2010, 09:55:17 pm
Might be useful if you made a change list of what you changed. From what I can gather, all you changed were adding new moves to Squire and Archer. I'm not sure what you changed with regards to stats.

Anyway, now that the tournament is over, IMO, here's what needs to be looked at ability-wise--I'm not going to touch stats since outside of Thief, I don't see any glaring problem:


I'm sure I'll think of more later. Besides that, I still don't know how I feel about Greased Bolt (because no one used it) and even though you split up Ultima into two levels, it's still rather weak.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 02, 2010, 10:06:59 pm
1) Agree
2) Agree
3) Agree
4) Right now, it has lost a lot of the worst statii.
5) Probably.
6) Either that or a new skillset completely. There is no reason to get Steal while Battle Skill is around. Or change Battle Skill and keep steal.
7) What do you mean by linear? Plus, its a low chance to hit and can be stopped fairly easily. If people like high risk, high reward attacks, then fine. I personally would rather use the Death spell from Black Mage.
8) Silf got changed recently to status only. Lower %hit than Paralyze and Don't Move, but AoE. Also, it only inflicts one or the other.
9) Either that or Demi should be buffed.
10) Agree
11) Agree
12) Sunken State will probably just be removed. Transparent messes the AI too much

Ultima is actually fairly strong. with some MA gear, it can deal about 200 damage. It's not faith based.

EDIT: Stats changed were very minor : +1 move to all units. +1 range for a lot of abilities (most spells, Earth Slash, Kiku, and a few others)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 02, 2010, 10:15:07 pm
With regards to Odin, I mean a linear attack like how Earth Slash and Kikuichimoji are. And it's less that Odin is risky than that it can pay off so easily (and, really, people tend not to use Cancel: Dead equipment, even with Secret Fist Dancers around).

With regards to Ultima, hunh, I didn't see that. I would still argue that they would like their casting times slightly reduced, but as it stands now, they're hardly my biggest concerns.

If Silf is back to status only, then I guess Don't Act or Don't Move is fine. I'm similarly fine with Sunken State just being removed, especially since it's outclassed by Concentrate anyway.

As for Steal, well, as I said in the Thief thread, it's probably easier to make it compete with Knight by making it less dangerous and more accurate to use than Battle Skills and maybe giving Thief new skills over the useless Steal Gil and Steal EXP than to try to design an entirely new skillset. This and a few other changes would probably make Thief useable. I find this especially true considering that Scholar is still new and needs more testing. If you want to try to make something from scratch though, it's really up to you and Aero and PX.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 03, 2010, 12:38:15 am
It looks like Thief is going to stay, and instead, Knight is going to get a makeover. If this goes through, it will become a Paladin. Thanks Aero and Eternal.

Here is a small list of abilities. Very rough draft.
Nurse - Heal_(25)% Hit_(PA+80)%
Dia- Minor Holy damage from afar and Blind.
Consecration- Kills undead surrounding the Paladin
Transfusion- Sacrifices HP to restore the health of adjacent allies. (AoE Wish)
Iron Will: Protect/Regen on self.
Magicward- Shell and Reflect on self.
Dispel - Hit_(PA+80)% remove +status
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 01:05:32 am
Heh, that's a promising take on Paladin, though it does raise the question of what exactly should happen with Kiyomori and Masamune somewhat indirectly view Magic Ward and Iron Will respectively. Dispel seems rather unnecessary, especially since Dispel Magic doesn't get used anyway. Transfusion could easily kill the AI.

Other looks like a good start. (Also solves the small problem of Slow being dished out almost exclusively by Knights and Knights also somewhat obviating Silence with Magic Ruin.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 03, 2010, 06:18:10 am
I think Move-HP Up should be moved to another class, and that move-HP Up and Counter Flood JP costs should be increased. And maybe Auto-Potion needs a slight nerf?

EDIT: Updated base stats for units. Specifically, there was an error for Squire in MA and MP, Time Mage gains 1 speed while losing 1 MA, and Summoner gains a lot of MP while losing Half of MP. Squire loses 10% evasion, while Thief goes to 20% evasion.

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/ArenaStatsv5.png)
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/Master1v5.png)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on August 03, 2010, 11:51:56 am
Last Dance:  A unit basically sacrifices its turns to remove turns from the opposing team.  At a rate of 25%, that is -breakeven-.  I recommend 33% personally.  So it'll on average knock out one person, and maybe snag another, for a net gain plus or minus RNG.  

Nameless Dance:  Needs to be without the random hits flag, but in order to make it effective with the AI it needs to lose any status that would make the AI plum ignore units.  So confusion is definitely out...... and looking at the updated front page we're in agreeance on most of the stuff so moving on.

Drawout:  We've learned that no random hits on multi-hit abilities suck, so we need to do something about kiyomori and masamune.  Perhaps kiyomori being AoE Shell (and shell only) with Masamune being AoE regen (and regen only)?  AoE regen does have some AI qwerks, but certainly that only happens when the samu also doesn't know Murasame, ya?  Pure instant AoE haste is too good imo, but we can gut any other draw out for an AoE protect.  Also I'd prefer to see some variety within the skillset since all the damaging ones are mostly interchangeable.  They could stand to gain another linear attack, perhaps?

Autopotion - Could stand to be tweaked to 50 HP.

X-Potion - 150 HP really is fine.  It seemed a bit OP on my dancers because they had protect and shell with minimal fury and faith, but really.... when a strong single-target attack occurs (hello kaz's archers), the damage isn't completely negated, and when AoE occurs (hello Kaz's samunners) it can only grab a single unit so the rest of the crew keeps the damage as well.

Ethers - Need some loving.  Maybe 30 and 70?

Lore:  Needs to be gutted.  But I've already discussed that in further detail.

Bards and Dancers:  Don't need 4 move -_-.  4 move is actually harmful to them.

Move HP/MP Up - seem like a too good for the JP combo with other R/S from classes in their current one, but shifting them to other similar classes has almost the same effect no matter where you slice it.  At least counter flood doesn't also provide defense, unlike equip shield/speed save/etc.  Maybe priest for Move MP Up.  Maybe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 12:45:08 pm
Last Dance: 33% is fine with me. By that logic, though, Last Song should be fine with at 25% since the Bard isn't really giving up a turn since his ability could hit himself, right?

Nameless Dance: Yeah, I suppose it makes sense that Confusion was causing the problem. If it's going to be nerfed to do only Darkness, Silence, Poison, Slow or Stop, then I'm fine with it still be 50%.

Draw Out: Masamune being AoE Regen is fine, especially since I've never seen anyone with a Priest use Regen in an AI tournament, much less anyone buy it. It's always Regenerator or P Bag that brings Regen (assuming that non-Random Masamune was banned). Kiyomori as AoE Protect (or Shell) is a lot more iffy though, since Priests still use those spells and Samurai don't have to use any MP to spam those over and over again. AoE Reflect seems like it'd be less invasive considering that similarly, no one uses Time Mage's Reflect or Summoner's Carbuncle as they are now. I don't think we really need to change any of other Draw Outs. They differ enough since most them have some element attached now.

Auto Potion: We're agreed.

X-Potion: Yours was hardly the only team where 150 seemed OP. It kind of screws over any non-Knight unit wearing a Cursed Ring. Even with my bias against Item, I'd be less annoyed by it if Item use against Undead could be dodged, but it can't. At the very least, X-Potion needs to cost more JP if it's going to remain at 150 HP IMO.

Ethers: Yeah, they've always sucked. I think 30 and 70 or even 80 MP would be fine and at least Ether's cost could be dropped a bit since it's still outshined by Move-MP Up.

Lore: Yeah, it probably needs to be changed, but it's not that huge of a deal at the moment, especially if Knight is getting completely redone. It can wait until after the next test unless someone has a clear suggestion of what to change it to: the only thing I could imagine would be Blue Mage, would be kind of difficult to properly adjust when we haven't discussed monsters at present.

Bards and Dancers: Yeah, they really don't need extra move. I'd argue that no one needs Extra move besides Thieves and Ninja and maybe Mimes. Yeah, even Mimes kind of get screwed over by extra move, though I can at least understand why they (and Squires) have it.

Move-HP Up & Move-MP Up: While Geomancer isn't OP with it, it could definitely stand to lose Move-HP Up. Move it to one of the less classes, like Mediator or Thief that have crappy R/Ss. Move-MP Up is a lot trickier to say. I think it maybe should be moved to someone else, but they all cause their own problems. It can stay with Oracle for now as far as I'm concerned. (Priest [and Wizard] would actually be worse IMO since Oracles basically have to have above average Faith, which Defense UP doesn't negate the penalty like Magic Defend UP does or make you into a replenishing nuke like Magic Attack UP does.)

***

Finger Guard: Needs to be free. There's no reason that a Reaction skill so useless should cost more than some other useful Reaction Abilities.

Mimes: They really need some innate Reaction ability and maybe even Any Ground movement because even with all the status protection, the great stats and the Innate Concentrate + Martial Arts combo, they're still sitting ducks with no reaction ability who just tend to die, especially with all that move. I think Counter and Any Ground (or Counter and Counter Magic, though I forget how Reactions stack at the moment) would go a long way to improving them without making them OP, even if it meant that they're PA would have to take a bit of a hit.

Reflect status in Spells: Both Reflect and Carbunkle need to be buffed, IMO. Reflect could stand to hit on AoE of 1, cost slightly less JP and have an upped chance to hit without being OP; it should cost more MP if that's the cast. Carbunkle needs to either similarly be upped and cost slightly less JP (and MP in this case) or do something useful besides Reflect. I'd suggest the FF9 version of Carbunkle that I'm using, but since that involves the Random flag and Transparent.... I don't know, they just both need something to make them at least seem worth using, even if they're probably never going to use just like Float (the spell). Hell, you could even just change Carbunkle to Shoat since you seem comfortable with trying to hand-out instant death via Odin and mass-Petrify is something that no one has (constant) access to.

Geomancy: Speaking of Float, I've always found it kind of odd that Elemental has some attacks that aren't elemental. I think that Pitfall, Hell Ivy and Carve Model could stand to gain Earth elemental. I say this even being aware that if Carve Model was Earth, I wouldn't have won that one match that my janky team won, but that match was pretty BS anyway on my side.

Ignore Height: Depending on what maps we ultimately end up deciding to use (if we get rid of that many or any), it's cost should probably be reduced, especially with Teleport and Fly around--both of those abilities can remain the same cost regardless because they both allow you to freely move behind people (even if the computer isn't as abusive with Teleport as we are).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on August 03, 2010, 02:08:04 pm
I'm in favor of 33% last song/dance.  

Masmune adding regen would work i s'pose, but im against having kiyomouri have protect/shell.  hardly any white magic was used in the tourney iirc.

X-Pot is fine IMO, it was more of a disadvantage when the AI used x-pot on undead since I could hit higher with other attacks.

Agree w/ ethers needing buff

Lore: just needs more damage output IMO

Bards/dancers: agree. I remember seeing philsovs dancers run out in to the open on a few matches after starting a dance.  The AI is pretty much suicidal with these things if you give them the move they need.

Finger guard: If you wanted it to be free I don't see an issue with that seeing as no one used talk skill last tourney - that being said i think it needs some buffs.

I think mimes are fine with the innates they have atm... if anything buff their hp.  from what I saw there was just an absence of healing/support for them.

Agree with ignore height being reduced.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 03, 2010, 02:30:15 pm
Mimes: Counter Flood is a nice blanket reaction that takes advantage of their stats.
Last Song should also be 33% - even if LS hit on the Singer, what good does that do? They're not going to change actions. It's one unit sacrificing his turns to give his teammates more.
X-Potion is fine. If people really want it nerfed, I think 120 would be good.

Hmm, Lore might be ok now that we're back to 3/4 move. I wouldn't mind if it was taken out though. We'll see...

I agree with everything else though.

Another thing to keep in mind (although you all are likely aware of this) is that any given ability, particularly R/S/M, has an extra 250 JP attached to it. So tweak JP costs with this in mind.

Oh, Protect 2 and Shell 2 need their JP costs slashed. In my opinion, Wall outclasses it by far.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 03, 2010, 03:10:36 pm
Lore: Double the CT, double the damage, you have the exact same thing, but procs once a turn instead of twice, weakening the Lore + Save strat.

Potions: I like the 50/100/no x-potion approach

Mimes already have the max HP considering we're using static growths to make things easier on ourselves, but they can stand for buffs. I like the counter flood innate reaction to them. They should have Any Ground though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 03, 2010, 03:32:56 pm
I agree that Counter Flood is probably the best Reaction skill if we want a catch all one and it's not like having Concentrate makes it as buff as Counter potentially could be since Geomancy already hits 100% anyway. Any Ground seems kind of necessary, even if does sort of step on Geomancers toes (unless fights take place at Volcano, hehe).

I also agree with PX's Lore proposal, especially since Lore is affected by Short Charge, correct? I don't know if the damage needs to doubled as well, though, since it's not able to be dodged and Lore was doing like 30~ damage per hit. The damage could be stand to be buffed, though.

Last Song at 33% would be fine with me. It's hard to tell how powerful Last Song is since no one even used a Bard this time around.

Quote from: "Kaz"hardly any white magic was used in the tourney iirc.

Yeah, I think that only two units (at most) used White Magic this entire tournament, one of them being Zaen's Undead Knight. Everything else was pretty much X-Potion this and Moogle that.

Although I guess this means I know what my next team is going to be.

QuoteFinger guard: If you wanted it to be free I don't see an issue with that seeing as no one used talk skill last tourney - that being said i think it needs some buffs.

Kind of my point. It works on so few things at present, especially with the 1.3 Talk Skill, that it's next to useless and thus shouldn't cost anything even though it still has its (very limited) uses.

It's rather difficult to buff. Believe me. One of the many things I'm trying to do for my patch is make Finger Guard stronger, but since most of it calls for formula changes, most of the changes have been to enemy classes and I had to keep the Brave and Faith affecting abilities of the original Talk Skill relatively intact.

Maybe we can look for ways to buff it after Scholars and now Knights (or Thieves) are dealt with, but as it stands now, making Finger Guard free is the easiest solution to a problem that will just up eat more time if we try to tackle it now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 03, 2010, 05:42:11 pm
Another idea we can do about Scholars

Revert them back to Calculators, with decent stats instead of pure shit they were in Vanilla

The list of Calc'd spells would look like:
Fire
Fire2
Ice
Ice2
Bolt
Bolt2
Poison
Cure
Cure2
Protect
Shell
Regen
Haste
Slow
Reflect
Blind
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on August 03, 2010, 06:09:10 pm
Hmm... forgot about the undead part with having White Magic secondary... Oh well.

Anyways, I wouldn't mind the Calc coming back with slightly better stats, less options.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 03, 2010, 06:23:57 pm
Potion - Heal 50 HP (Auto-Pot only)
Hi-Potion - Heals 40% of max HP (191 HP on a max HP Knight)
X-Potion - Heals 120 HP

Numbers may need tweaking. But this is the plan I have to make both potions useful.

EDIT: Last Song/Last Dance are now at 34%.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on August 04, 2010, 10:49:30 am
QuoteLast Song/Last Dance are now at 34%
.

I think Last Song should still be 50%.  The bard in question is dead in the water, and a good (stupid AI) bard who quick turns himself should go right back to last songing.  33% is fine for last dance because its against 4 targets, but with last song its 3 so following the same scheme 33% is the breakeven and 50% is the one beneficial bloke plus another one sometimes, plus or minus RNG.  

I like the new potion scheme too!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 04, 2010, 01:38:51 pm
Calcs: I guess that's fine. Since there's never really been enemy AI with neutered Math Skill (or at least multiple enemy AI with neutered Math Skill), I can't even begin to guess how the AI would use it though.

Last Song: Part of me wants to agree with philsov, especially since that's what the computer would do in most cases. The majority of me, however, wants to err on the side of caution since Last Song is even more powerful than Last Dance and I'm worried more about the Bard's teammates having a 50% chance of Quick than the Bard himself. I'd want to test it, though, so it's not like I'm going to fight hard for one or the other. I just think that it would be better if it was at 34%, though I'd gladly like to be proven incorrect.

Potions: Seems kind of bizarre that Hi-Potion could heal so much more than X-Potion. Why not just flip Hi-Potion and X-Potion around? Half of the teams tend to have at least one heavily armored (Knight) unit anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 04, 2010, 02:04:58 pm
Doesn't really matter, item users will either buy both potions now, or stick with just buying X-Potion. On most units, X-Potion will heal more than Hi-Potion anyway.

Calcs seem fine - JP costs will really kill them, and I guess they'd be more like Bards/Dancers in this environment (heavily specialized role).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 04, 2010, 05:04:42 pm
Since Zodiac decided to revert the forums back a fair few hours, a couple of updates were lost.

Chemist: Hi-Potion is now 35% healing. Remedy has been changed to Bandage - cure Don't Move and Don't Act.

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/Itemv7.png)

Priest: Reraise now 100% hit, Protect/Shell 2 made stronger, Wall MP cost increased. There is also an error on the table. Esuna heals DM/DA

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/WhiteMagicv7.png)

Samurai: Kiyomori is now 100% Poison, Masamune is now 100% Regen

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/DrawOutv7.png)

Phil has convinced me. Bard Last Song back to 50%
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 03:41:09 am
Repeating Fist is currently worthless as is. Wave Fist is better than it in every way AND costs the same amount.

This needs to change (even as much as I dislike Monks). I'm guessing it wouldn't change back to its original self since people understandably hate Random abilities, but just reducing the JP cost of it or increasing the JP cost of Wave Fist isn't really going to help improve Repeating Fist.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 03:44:33 am
Repeating Fist isn't actually evadable. It's a typo.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 03:50:56 am
Oh.... That's fine then, even with Concentrate still around.

Since I forgot to mention it, I like the changes to Item, White Magic and Draw Out.

Not to conscend, but you did make sure to change the AI flags for Kiyomori, right? It'd be kind of funny if they still thought they should use a 100% Poison attack on their allies.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 05:45:54 am
Oh shi... forgot to change the AI flags.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 05, 2010, 01:23:01 pm
Hmm. I'm leaning on Fire/Ice/Bolt 4 as being a bit too powerful. Right now, more damage, more range (summons still only at 3 range?), same AoE as Bahamut, the strongest damaging summon. Being evadable isn't a huge factor - ~0-20% evade (averageish), depending on shield and/or mantle. Max M.Ev setup with Abandon gives 84% M. Ev, 51% evade without Abandon, but that means very low P.Ev/lower stats/no status or elemental immunities. Low faith units still take a decent chunk (the first Fire 4 would've done ~140 to my 40 Faith Knight without Venetian Shield). Low HP moderate-high faith units will get one-shotted/close to it (Monk in critical, I think Sage died? definitely in critical at least), two or three in a row on a clumped team = death. Unless Venetian Shield/White Robe/lucky elemental absorb gear. I suppose that's the main deterrent, especially since Venetian Shield will be rather common.
18 MA Wizard with MAUP and ele boosting (30 effective MA) and 70 Faith will do 268 to a 40 Faith unit (neutral to element).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 06:37:30 pm
I agree. What should we do though? I don't see a good way to balance it. Got any ideas?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 05, 2010, 07:09:55 pm
Not really, unfortunately. Well, what if we reduced the AoE to that of the other black magic spells? (AoE 1 instead of 2) It'll be much harder to catch (and promptly blow up) 3-4 members of a team.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 05, 2010, 07:14:14 pm
Huge single target nuke?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 07:15:13 pm
I'd be fine with a single target elemental nuke. It would have to be weaker than Flare initially but potentially stronger with Strengthen to be worth it, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 05, 2010, 07:20:46 pm
Er, I meant the cross AoE, like the lower tier black magics. I guess single target could work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 05, 2010, 07:26:42 pm
I'm aware of what you meant. I was agreeing with PX, though. Sorry for being vague.

Only other "solution" would just be to off them completely either leave them gone or replace them with else, like Bio or something. (Not like Poison will be getting any use with Kiyomori's change.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 05, 2010, 07:31:19 pm
Poison is still ranged =/

Single target nuke sounds alright, but we already have Flare... I'm leaning towards 1 AoE like CT5 is suggesting, but either can work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 06, 2010, 12:19:23 am
I like the idea of scrapping the tier 4 black magics to replace them with bio 1/2/3, preferably dealing dark element damage + status (lower damage then the standard elemental black magic, 75% power maybe?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 06, 2010, 02:16:16 am
Dancers and Bards: Lower their speed to 8, and move to 3
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 06, 2010, 03:21:31 pm
When you get the chance, please change all instances of Knight to Paladin in the initial post. (Unless we're keeping the name of Knight. It's not like it really makes a difference.)

Similarly, Ninja's new Katon, Raiton and Suiton don't say what elements they are at the moment.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 06, 2010, 05:22:00 pm
Updated the tables with what the danmed said
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 06, 2010, 08:40:15 pm
We need a new formula for the Ninja abilities. The current formula won't accept elements.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 06, 2010, 08:47:46 pm
the elemental formula will, as will the non-faith magic attack formula (MA * X), and the Punch Art formula, and the standard faith magic formula. Of these, I most favor the elemental or punch art formulas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 06, 2010, 08:55:14 pm
I was thinking of using Punch Art formulas, but then Martial Arts boosted the power of the spells. I guess I will have to choose between MA*X or Geomancy formulas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 06, 2010, 08:55:53 pm
I'm fine with Punch Art formula (though that would make Martial Art Ninjas even more bullshit).

Speaking of Ninja, I'd actually argue (as much as I hate to admit) that they probably want Two Swords Innate back. I don't think anyone's even used them yet, which is kind of stark considering how whored they always were in AI tournaments. They would just need to (maybe) lose some PA and probably be forbidden from having Martial Arts Support (and maybe but probably not Concentrate Support).

Yeah, that's a lot of maybe, but since we talking about Ninja and Ninjutsu (since Throw doesn't fit anymore) anyway....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Pride on August 06, 2010, 10:24:33 pm
Is formula 63 (speed*wp) no good for the new ninja abilities?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 06, 2010, 10:25:51 pm
It can work, but if the caster has no weapon (Monks) then it does 0 damage. I can use that if you guys like it though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 06, 2010, 11:27:19 pm
And if they're using Defender, which has the highest WP, with attack up... yeah, uber 5 range nuke, 100% hit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Pride on August 06, 2010, 11:36:59 pm
Attack UP works on Speed*WP formula?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on August 07, 2010, 01:26:23 am
Quote from: "The Damned"I'm fine with Punch Art formula (though that would make Martial Art Ninjas even more bullshit).

Speaking of Ninja, I'd actually argue (as much as I hate to admit) that they probably want Two Swords Innate back. I don't think anyone's even used them yet, which is kind of stark considering how whored they always were in AI tournaments. They would just need to (maybe) lose some PA and probably be forbidden from having Martial Arts Support (and maybe but probably not Concentrate Support).

Yeah, that's a lot of maybe, but since we talking about Ninja and Ninjutsu (since Throw doesn't fit anymore) anyway....


I want the 2Swords innate back too - like Damned said, as long as their PA is low (which I think it already is) ninjas won't be over-used.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 07, 2010, 05:48:04 am
QuoteAttack UP works on Speed*WP formula?
Yes it does.

My feeble attempt at trying to find the SP*WP formula to edit didn't work. All I managed to find was current damage to be dealt =( So that means probably using either MA*Y and risk it being horribly strong for mages, or SP*WP and be able to deal as much damage as about now, except being evadable and having elemental attributes, while unarmed units get the shaft. Using the latter would mean Attack UP and Elemental boosting will both work, and if you put it on Paladin with Defender... either way, I don't like either of those options. A 3rd option would be to maybe use Malak's Untruth formula, giving them power while keeping 40 Faith.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 07, 2010, 06:36:26 am
oooh, I like the untruth option a lot, it makes for a very interesting secondary choice, and maybe even a powerful pesudo-primary if run on a 40 faith wizard or something
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 10, 2010, 08:02:08 am
/me prepares to hear a bunch of "WTF"'s from 10 speed Thief.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 10, 2010, 09:36:17 am
I see it, but apparently only the female thief is 10 speed, so you might need to update your update. that being said, I don't believe that 10 speed thieves are much of a problem, seeing as even with stacked +Pa gear, they max out at 2x146=292 damage (Iga/Koga), or 288 damage (Dragon Whisker Jump), but in each of those cases they only have 269hp, making them exceedingly fragile.
:EDIT: Oh, are ninja's getting innate Two Swords back? because if not, then thieves make for better ninjas then ninjas, +1 speed, +30hp, +5 class evasion, equal PA, -1 MA, equal move/jump.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on August 10, 2010, 12:13:19 pm
Ninjas should either have more PA or more Speed than thieves... What to do, what to do...

But then again, Thieves are better Lancers than Lancers, just like Wizards with Draw Out, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 11, 2010, 09:09:47 pm
Okay, so I can understand Ninja still not having Innate Two Swords (at the moment). However, the ability list for Ninjutsu is still contrary. Now, instead of merely missing the elementals like before, it has the much confusing information that Katon, Raiton and Suiton rely on the Untruth formula, are thusly magically and can trigger Counter Magic.

So...are those three supposed to be actually use Untruth or are they supposed to use SP*PA like you mentioned earlier?

(Similarly, is Shuriken actually SP*WP? Or is it also supposed to be SP*PA?)

Also, Mime still not having a Reaction skill makes me sad-face. :(
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 11, 2010, 09:21:35 pm
The SP*PA hack affected all weapons, which was why it was dropped. Shuriken for the moment is SP*WP. I can't do the same for the other 3 skills, since formula 63 ignores elements. The next best thing was to use Untruth, until I can find a formula to edit that won't mess other ones up.

EDIT: Someone suggested increasing Ninja PA to about 12.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 11, 2010, 09:35:03 pm
Oh, right, that's unfortunate. I just wanted to be sure, really.

I'm going to have to disagree with PX for once. If anything IMO (though I shouldn't have to say that) is to change about Ninja's PA, then it needs to be dropped a bit so they can get two Swords back Innately (since really there's little reason to use them over Thief now, esp. with Thief acquiring the Ruins). They'd just maybe need to be banned from using Martial Arts Support if they get back Two Swords innately.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 11, 2010, 10:06:19 pm
I disagree with arbitrary bannings. If I started stuff like that, people would ask for random things like Excalibur being unbanned if units didn't have speed save/speed boosting equipment/whatever. I really hate doing shit like that. it needlessly complicates things.

I'll mess around with teams of 4 dual wielding units and see how balanced it is though.

EDIT: It was Pride who suggested the PA buff.

EDIT2: Reducing PA won't help too much. Flails are still WP*WP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 11, 2010, 10:13:08 pm
Reducing PA was more to do with Martial Arts, but I can understand not wanting to arbitrarily ban things.

Make sure to test screw around with Duo Wielding fists.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 11, 2010, 10:47:24 pm
The problem, as I see it, is the superior damage output that comes from combining Two Swords with Martial Arts or Attack UP. The former is easy to solve, just make fists incompatible with Two Swords by editing the weapon data for them (the blank space above dagger), for the latter, just lower the PA of Ninja accordingly. Here's an example with Ninja PA reduced to 9 compared to the other big damage melee, the element boosted Ice Brand Paladin (chosen because both builds rely on stacking element boost + Attack UP). Look at this, then just adjust Ninja PA downwards until you're happy with their output.

Ninja Setup (9 base PA plus max PA gear plus Iga/Koga and Attack UP)

9 base gives PA of 15 speed of 9 so XA0=12, this is element boosted(x(5/4)) to 15, then Attack Up'd(x(4/3)) to 20, final output, 2x[20 * 9] = 2x[180] = 360

compare to Paladin with Ice Brand Kaiser Shield, Barbuta, Carabini Mail, Bracer and Attack UP

13 base gives PA of 17 which is element boosted to 21, then attack Up'd to 27, final output, [13 * 27] = 351 plus Ice 2 proc (25% of 27 damage, assuming caster/target faith of 55/55)

As for double flails

Flame Whip has a WP of 8, which can be element boosted to 10, then Attack UP'd to 13, for a final output of 13 * 8 or 104x2 or 208 damage total
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 11, 2010, 11:14:07 pm
I just realised that my stat tables were wrong for male Mediator and Thief
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/FFT%20Arena/ArenaStatsv9.png)

As for Mime, I can give them Counter I guess?

Still not sure about Ninja though. For now, though... Bare fists cannot be 2 sworded.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 12, 2010, 12:05:17 am
I think people wanted to give Mime Counter Flood and I agree. Also Any Ground as movement, though that's not as necessary.

And as long as Bare Fists can't be Two Sworded, that's what I most care about. Stupid Monks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 02:43:33 am
The Untruth formula seems to be very glitchy on the AI. When I cast a spell on a unit, it deals about 30 damage, but when I enter an AI battle, the AI can somehow magically cast it for about 150 damage. Same caster, same target, same everything. All that was changed was that instead of a battle at Barius Hill and me entering one, I choose a map in DD.

I might just make it PA*Y straight damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 12, 2010, 02:58:45 am
try using formula 32 (Repeating Fist) with the X value set to 1, end result is the same as the work formula with no backlash damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 03:07:28 am
Huh?

32 Dmg_(Rdm(1...X)*(PA*3+Y)) NS [Repeating Fist.] (Damage is always non-elemental.)

Unless the wiki and Patcher is wrong (and it is for formula 3E) that won't get a PA*Y formula. Multiplication before addition. Also, it needs elements. I was just going to edit Truth to PA damage, since I know that works.

EDIT: I think I have old Untruth working again.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Melancthon on August 12, 2010, 02:02:23 pm
Shuriken is using MP, is this correct?  I noticed while watching the me vs. CT5 fight.  If it is correct it is not reflected in the Abilities thread/chart.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 12, 2010, 06:42:40 pm
Here are the propsed changes to Skills/Abilities
GENERAL
-Fists can no longer be 2 sworded
-Ninja loses 2 PA and gains 2 swords innate

SKILLS
-Ultima/Ultima 2 now activates Counter Flood, Counter Magic
-Ultima/Ultima 2 are now MA*9 damage
-Ultima costs 450 JP, 6CT and 30 MP
-Ultima 2 costs 600 JP, 8 CT and 40 MP
-Chirijiradren is MA*8 damage
-Other Draw Outs are MA*7 damage
-Katon, Raiton, and Suiton are now (100-Faith)*(100-Faith)*PA*15 damage (still magic evadable)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 13, 2010, 06:12:54 pm
When you get the chance, can you please put the stat tables in spoilers, FFMaster?

I've been meaning to ask this because I'd imagine that they might slow down less computers (like mine...) a bit and there's no real reason the need to always be open. Regardless, thanks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 14, 2010, 09:58:43 pm
editting the blank space above dagger didn't work. you still get 2 attacks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 15, 2010, 10:41:06 am
What about this? we remove Martial Arts support from the game, and instead give the empty hand weapon the quality of +2 PA or something (with a straight PA/2 * PA damage formula for fists, Two Sword-ing Male Knights would deal a max of 171 damage per punch, pretty much dead even with the 2x170 from max PA double diamond swords), monks would then get innate Two Swords (or maybe Attack UP) instead of Martial Arts
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on August 15, 2010, 01:09:20 pm
Earth dragon is twice in lore.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Zaen on August 15, 2010, 01:22:44 pm
Those ideas for removing Martial Arts sound decent enough. I'm more for Two Swords than Attack UP, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 15, 2010, 07:59:25 pm
If monks get Attack UP innate, then ALL of their abilities get powered up, if they get Two Swords, only their regular attack command gets powered up, so it really depends on which kind of carrier is a preferable state for the monk; Equipment/Attack (via Equip X supports with innate Two Swords), or PA Ability (via secondary skillsets and innate Attack UP)
:EDIT: because of monk's lack of headgear, Attack UP support would probably lead to the least significant change in strategy and setups. Also, a quick question, I know that the new ninja jutsu use a PA-based revision of the untruth formula, but is damage from that formula improved via Attack UP or Magic Attack UP?
:EDIT2: Would it be too much to ask to give Asura a non-standard targeting configuration? For example giving it the standard black magic range or making it a 3-way attack, just to spice up Draw Out and take advantage of the fact asura's effect supports such changes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 22, 2010, 12:21:33 am
As seen in the battle topic thread, Ultima needs another nerf. It either needs to be single-target or have its MA halved if it's going to continue ignoring Faith.

Ultima 2 just needs to cease to exist entirely. It was never necessary to begin with IMO.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 24, 2010, 02:07:09 pm
Ultima competes directly with Bahamut for non-elemental ranged AoE damage, so if it continues to ignore faith, it's spell power needs to be based around that

Bahamut@28MA (female scholar + rune blade/holy miter/wizard outfit/magic gauntlet + Magic Attack UP)

40 faith to 55 faith = 147 damage

55 faith to 55 faith = 203 damage

70 faith to 55 faith = 258 damage

Ultima@28MA (same unit)

28 * 5 = 140

28 * 7 = 196

28 * 9 = 252

with the data above, we can see that Ultima should probably be set to MA * 7 damage, comparable to the average expected damage from bahamut at 55 faith
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: logus on August 24, 2010, 03:21:30 pm
you should have calculated 70 to 40 and 70 70, since those are the cases in 95% of the time:

70 to 40 =  188,16

70 to 70 = 329,28

Bahamut one-shots most 70 faith units. You either need mdef up or armor to survive that with caster classes.

I still don't think ultima needs another nerf. It's still a double edged skill, as the ai does not consider haste/speed save in the calculations and will usually end up doing ultima at both teams. And those scholars will be pretty fragile. But don't take my word for it: test it. My old lancers team vs. pride shows that for speed save, I've seen it for haste (maybe my elemental team shows that against pride's ultima team as well for haste, I forgot), but you can always check it out for yourself. The last team I posted should have an easy time against any ultima teams, I think.

And even then, if you are still not convinced, I'd sugest changing ultima to use faith instead of nerfing it's Q even more. Cause by nerfing it's Q, chiri would be just better than ultima, due to being instant and having good AoE. And I really, really don't want to see ANOTHER nerf to DO, which would make it plain useless. Murasame is half-useless. You either go full MA or you can't heal yourself properly.

ps: I love damned's idea of dropping ultima2. I don't see the point in making the AI even more suicidal with a bigger AoE.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on August 24, 2010, 05:35:14 pm
Quote from: "logus"I still don't think ultima needs another nerf. It's still a double edged skill, as the ai does not consider haste/speed save in the calculations and will usually end up doing ultima at both teams. And those scholars will be pretty fragile.

I agree for the above reason. this could also encourage more use of faster units
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 24, 2010, 06:03:18 pm
Removing Ultima 2 would be best. Far less likely to catch and massacre a whole team this way. Ultima should keep its current AoE. Then redirects are still possible (and deadly).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on August 25, 2010, 02:05:02 pm
just remove ultima 2 and make ultima 1 reflectable
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 30, 2010, 10:36:49 am
I kind of want a Comet spell for time mages, dealing non-elemental damage to random panels in an area, something like one of these targeting schemes

A: range 4, area 1v3, hits 1-3 times, no random fire flag (hits entire area with each proc, like 1.3 Meteorain)

B: range 4, area 1v3, hits 1-6 times, random fire flag (up to twice as many hits as A, but each proc only targets a single random panel)

C: range 4, area 2v3, hits 6 times, random fire flag (always procs 6 times, but covers a larger area, so a bit more of a gamble)

EDIT: really like the new change to MA + X% ability formulas, it in particular makes a team concept i've been kicking around much more potent, so you may see that being thrown out there soon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 30, 2010, 11:28:30 am
Can we change
Equip Sword -> Equip Knight/Sword
Equip Crossbow -> Equip Cross/Bow

Also, Time Mages are rather capped on skills, so in order to add more, we gotta take a few out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 30, 2010, 11:42:31 am
well, we could add Comet to scholar instead, but they hardly need it on top of the Bio line and Tornado/Quake, I suppose Balance could shift to Scholar instead, since they seem like a good place to stick 'gimmick' spells like that. Besides, for a time mage, a better fitting gimmick damage formula would be TarMaxHP - TarCurHP, and be called something like "Recall Injury" or "Recursion". I agree with you on changing the equip X abilities, but i'd rather go with something like the following

Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (one-handed/light blades)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (heavy blades)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole/Flail
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book/Robe (Equip Spell)

Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats
Equip Shield -> Unchanged
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on August 30, 2010, 12:28:43 pm
Hey, that'd be awesome. And 0 ASM required. I like that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: philsov on August 30, 2010, 04:19:38 pm
QuoteEquip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (one-handed/light blades)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (heavy blades)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole/Flail
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book/Robe (Equip Spell)

Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats
Equip Shield -> Unchanged

That scheme works out very well!

Only kink is that robes are on a bad table to be used with the rest of the magey weapons, except sticks.  And sticks are a better fit with spears and flails anyways.  

I'd also like to see Harps added onto Ranged, and wish I could see Carpets somewhere in the mix (teehee), but there's no solid place for them.  =\

For others:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4207 (http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4207)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 30, 2010, 05:34:43 pm
forgot that bit about robes, got the rest of them right from memory though, so yay me! what about this as a fix?

Equip Armor -> Equip Shield/Helmet/Armor

Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats

Equip Shield -> Equip Ribbon/Robe

The only potential problem here is that it makes Equip Armor even better then it already is, the alternative would be to bundle robes with clothes and hats, and leave equip shield alone.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 31, 2010, 01:37:14 pm
QuoteSkip Sandwich (Posts: 881)    
    * Private message
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:13 pm]


What if blood suck status no longer counted as Unable to fight? Then it would basically become a more potent version of confuse, but the AI will still attack the afflicted, and if an entire team gets infected, then they can keep fighting on (though the match might possibly devolve into a massive 8-way blood orgy)
   
   
philsov (Posts: 3623)    
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:15 pm]

....and we could also probably edit the blood suck ability to not inflict blood suck 100% of the time to avoid becoming a zombie swarm.
________________________

Skip Sandwich (Posts: 881)    
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:18 pm]

We could even make the human version of blood suck not inflict status at all, so only vampires could infect people (at a 25% chance or less), and not infected humans
________________________
      
philsov (Posts: 3623)    
    * [Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:19 pm]

which in turn turns blood suck into a combination berserk/confusion that's easily cleansable. This seems fine :)

Okay, so given the above, I propose we replace the confusion status with an edited blood suck

Blood Suck (elmdor) -> Blood Suck - drains 30% hp from target, range 1v3, area 0, no status, unevadable

Confusion Song -> Blood Kiss - turns target undead unit into a vampire, range 4, area 0, Undead_Hit(Sp + 70%), CT 4, MP 20

Esuna - as before, but also clears Blood Suck status

Stigma Magic - as before but also clears blood suck status
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 31, 2010, 05:06:35 pm
If we can remove the Unable to Fight bit, then yeah, that would be great. But I have no idea where to begin with that...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 31, 2010, 05:56:03 pm
what about the KO flag under status effects in the patcher? is that just for show or would that do it?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 31, 2010, 06:10:52 pm
Well, removing the KO flag worked... but well, this problem popped up.
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/BloodSuck.png)

Another stalemate. Blood sucked units don't attack each other. We can minimise the chance of it happening though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on August 31, 2010, 06:18:10 pm
well, in my proposal above, the Blood Suck ability itself would be unable to transfer the status, so that would reduce the posibility of blood orgies like above. As for attacking each other while blood sucked, perhaps by messing with the AI flags of the blood suck ability, we can change that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: SilvasRuin on August 31, 2010, 08:10:11 pm
Wouldn't Blood Suck backfire against Blood Sucked people since they are undead?  I don't see how you could get them to attack each other without breaking the AI rather badly, and it doesn't seem like all that great an idea either.

Of course, if it doesn't backfire when used against Undead, then that wouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on September 01, 2010, 12:41:17 pm
Blood sucked isn't being undead. So blood suck takes damage right like your guy normally would.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: logus on September 07, 2010, 12:50:27 am
What I have observed so far in stats/abilities (and the most blatant items):

-light robe is still not fixed/a bit too good. HP nerf should do it

-yell costing mp is a very good idea. I'd leave it at 4 mp though.

-met..what? Meteor? Give short charge and you got huge splash damage really quick and good. I might have to make a team to show proof on this one. But here's a tip that I'll show at items thread: the mantle that gives init:faith. This, ladies and gentleman, calls for rape. Actually, a lot of the AoE big magics with init:faith = rape.

- make raise cost around 16 mp, raise2 around 24 mp.

-change thieves' ruins to breaks. The class doesn't have the mp to support ruins, and double stat breaking/ranged stat breaking should be really nice (we'll see if it gets TOO nice with 14 speed).  And if anyone is thinking "oh, but knight had the same problem with ruins, it was balanced!": a) knights have twice as much mp b) knights can equip robes.

- "Unyielding" obviates mdef up. The meta is highly turned to physical attacks, and here we got a skill that helps you with the 70 faith issue AND helps you deal with the massive physical attacks.

-berserk needs a nerf. +30% increased received damage works for me. But as it is right now, it's too good, especially with abandon + defender.

-loved the nerfs on oracle's paralyze and sleep

-overwhelm is still kinda weird. It's not as good as atk up or matk up in terms of raw damage, and I don't think anyone would use it merely for the extra healing...

-mad science... what? 100% reraise on your entire party every 4 ticks or am I reading it wrong?

That's all I got for now. Some might be off, but who knows, just throwing some opinions out there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 07, 2010, 01:19:31 am
-fine
-1 MP wouldn't make much of a difference. fine
-Meteor is overpowered yeah. i'll probably make it random like Skip wanted, since I have no ideas for it.
-fine
-c) Thieves can equip Golden Hairpin
-Yeah, its probably too strong, but we will see. 20% was just a number I pulled out of nowhere.
-not gonna happen. i don't have any idea how to edit the constants for status effects. Find a different solution.
-Overwhelm is just for mixed units. Like a person who wants to run a mixed Samurai or Ninja or something. Its there for those who want it. 25% seemed too much, so I left it at 20% for now. We will see how it goes.
-Mad Science is single target.

EDIT: I just realised that I forgot to change Half of MP. Damn.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on September 07, 2010, 09:04:46 am
keeping an AoE of 3 is 25 panels to potentially hit, so you'd need an average or consistent result of 12-13 hits to cover effectively (effectively in this case meaning at least a 50% chance to hit any given target in the area at least once, adjust this up/down to your own taste/sense of balance). It's up to you if you want it to be able to target allies or not, if you still want it to have that massive AoE, i'd suggest not, otherwise just adjust the # of hits and/or vert tolerance to whatever your comfortable with. Also, reflect + random fire spells is a nono, since if even one hit gets reflected, the ENTIRE spell will be duplicated onto the reflect target.

as for berserk, what if the Salty Rage item also inflicted permanent blind status? Then stacking Berserk + Attack UP becomes a real gamble (except with guns, but ranged direct fire berserkers tend to not make very smart targeting choices). The oracle's blind rage spell and mediator's insult could likewise inflict both berserk and blind status (it would also make those two abilities more useful as the AI views berserk as more of a debuff status anyway, even though our player base views it as a buff status)

Also, since we're running fury anyway, any chance of using your reaction % hack to simply set reactions to 50% constant activation rate?

as for the mixed M/Attack UP-M/Defend UP abilities, could it be possible to make it so that instead of combining both attack or both defend abilities, it combined the attack and defend abilites for a single type? so you choose either Attack UP (+30% phys damage dealt), Defend up (-30% phys damage received) or Might UP (+15% phys damage dealt AND -15% phys damage recieved)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: logus on September 07, 2010, 03:09:50 pm
the AI looks at berserk as a debuff cause it CAN be used like that. Aim a caster with berserk and you got a useless unit. I somewhat like the blind idea for salty rage, as I suggested poison, but blind might be countered by concentrate (which always has been a good option for berserkers). I don't think you got to change the skills, since AI will hardly, if ever, use it on it's allies or strong physical enemy units.

I'd go for 60-70% with the reactions, although I still do love the idea. You shouldn't have to make yourself a huge target for physical attacks just in order to get a decent reaction working.

Just one thing: did finger guard die? I was thinking of making it give status protection instead of just protection against some skills. Is that even possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 07, 2010, 05:19:50 pm
If I change Meteor to random area hits, it will be in a smaller area, of course.

Zodiac and PX were very much against a set reaction%.

Finger Guard died because it was useless against half of the Talk Skills.

Now that I think about it a bit more, I am actually considering INCREASING Yell MP cost a bit more. It hits 100%, regardless of compat/faith/whatever. Pride's team is making very good use of it, with some battles I didn't record. He is also making extremely good use of Weak/Absorb.

I was thinking... what if I made absorb only 100% absorb, so no weak + absorb at all. Right now, Pride's team is healing for about 300 HP while attacking at the same time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Kaz on September 08, 2010, 12:37:23 am
Kind of completely off topic but I think throw-stone should be 100% hit and dash should go bye bye.  No one really uses dash anyways, and the the cancel charging special on throw stone doesnt really get utilized by the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Melancthon on September 12, 2010, 07:41:33 pm
Has there ever been any talk of getting rid of Haste entirely?  I'm sure most of you would be against the idea, but I for one wouldn't be heart-broken to see it go.  I just feel like the AI prioritizes it highly (as it should), and that anyone that doesn't bring Haste is at an immediate disadvantage, thereby limiting options for team creation.  Just my two cents.

Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Confusion completely gone either.  It just makes the AI stupid and makes fights drag out longer than they should, without the advantages of Sleep, Charm, and Death Sentance (which can also screw with the AI and make fights go long).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Skip Sandwich on September 13, 2010, 10:25:41 am
I think haste would be more managable if it followed the FFTA/2 pardigm, basic haste is single target, Haste 2 is AoE 1. Yell would be changed to inflict quick at a decent %hit (just don't let it target the caster, since we don't want the AI casting it on itself over and over till they run out of mp)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 19, 2010, 11:38:33 pm
Could somebody justify the nerfs to Yin Yang Magic?  The Oracle has always been an unreliable class due to the hit-or-miss nature of its spells.  Lowering the success rate of Yin Yang spells only makes the Oracle weaker.  What's more, Yin Yang spells are magic evadeable.  A 70 faith Oracle has a 50% chance of afflicting a 40 faith target with Don't Act prior to applying magic evasion.  At best, the Oracle has a 50% chance of making its opponent spend a turn casting Esuna and a 50% chance of wasting its own turn entirely (along with a juicy chunk of MP).  You may as well stack magic evasion and make yourself "immune" to all of an Oracle's spells (and all other spells, to boot) than fiddle around with status-resistant equipment.  Compare this to the Geomancer, who has an invariable 25% chance of afflicting ailments (including the nasty ones, like stop and sleep) at no MP cost nor charge time, and who at least deals damage if the proc fails, and you quickly see that the Geomancer beats the Oracle at its own job.

The one thing to fear from higher proc rates, I believe, would be crippling three or four target afflictions.  To that I say: "make your status manager status-resistant."  If that's still not enough, you can simply make all Yin Yang spells 0 AoE.

The most interesting fights in RPGs involve ailment management.  With Yin Yang magic as it is now, I feel that the Oracle class is wholly unnecessary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 20, 2010, 04:23:15 am
If anything, I've increased the chances. The formula is MA*2+Y. I made it like that to make MA count for more, while decreasing the Y by about 10 for each spell.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 20, 2010, 07:45:37 pm
The mainstays, Paralyze and Sleep, are reduced by 25%.  MA*2 recoups 1% per point of MA, so an oracle would need 25 MA to be back to where it was before.  The female Oracle has 11 Ma, so Paralyze and Sleep are at negative 14% prior to equipment bonuses.  Recouping the remaining 14% would require a full set of Ma equipment and MagicAtkUP, which would leave the oracle very fragile.  Again, this is at 70 Fa, so the oracle is susceptible to magic damage, unlike the geomancer.

The weakness is compounded with the lack of a minimum Fa requirement.  Removal of the requirement incidentally buffs physical-based teams that can afford to keep all members' Fa at 40.  These teams can forfeit status protection with no fear for the oracle.  Case in point: Pride's double draw out team has no status protection (aside from slow) and sticks together to take advantage of full-party healing.  One would think oracles threaten that arrangement.  However, an oracle with full Ma gear and MagicAtkUp (which, by the way, leaves the Oracle paper thin) has only a ~50% chance of inflicting the samurai with Don't Act.  The Oracle cannot do its own job at exploiting Pride's team's weakness.

What I might suggest, at the very least, is making Yin Yang spells ignore MEv.  I say this after considering the numbers:

Oracle with 70 Fa
24 Ma attained with MagicAtkUP

40 Fa target
Ma (oracle)  MEv (target)    Paralyze %     Sleep %
     18           0              55           51
     24           0              58           54
     18          25              41           38
     24          25              44           41

70 Fa target
Ma (oracle)  MEv (target)    Paralyze %     Sleep %
     18           0              96           89
     24           0             100           95
     18          25              72           67
     24          25              76           71

I didn't truncate values mid-calculation, so I might be off by a percent or two.  Evidently, the target's MEv affects the success rate more than the oracle's Ma ever will, and the change is only greater for higher Fa targets.  Keep in mind that Oracles must sacrifice all forms of defensive gear to attain 18 Ma.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 20, 2010, 07:54:46 pm
You forgot to factor in faith.

Using your numbers, starting at 170 (just as an example, dunno what real values are). 70 faith to 40 faith -> 47%.
Again, using your numbers, 170-25+11 (from the MA*2) -> 156, 70 faith to 40 faith -> 43%.

That's 4% reduction in success rate. Not even close to 25%

From what I've heard, if the values weren't lowered, 70 faith to 70 faith was around 90% with paralyze. I think it's ok.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 20, 2010, 08:38:52 pm
By 25%, I was referring to the Y value.  1.3's formulas are Hit_F(Ma+185%) and Hit_F(Ma+170%) for Paralyze and Sleep, respectively.  FFTA's formulas are Hit_F(Ma*2+160%) and Hit_F(Ma*2+145%), respectively.  The point I am trying to make is that nerfs to Yin Yang magic make a weak skill set only weaker.  The calculations I proceeded to write (which I was haplessly retrofitting as you posted) show that any contribution Ma has to the success rate is dwarfed by the target's Fa and MEv, so changing Ma to Ma*2 is inconsequential.  The target's parameters decide the oracle's effectiveness, and not the oracle's own as it were, so a bad success rate stays bad.  Setting the standard using 70 Fa targets is flawed when nothing keeps the player from making 40 Fa teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on September 20, 2010, 08:48:17 pm
If the success rate is 30% at 70/40 faith, that says just how high the actually % to land is. If it were 70/70, I'm sure it'd hit every time. Do you want Paralyze/Sleep/Petrifies hitting 40 faith units at a 60% rate? That's just retarded, as it'll ruin the metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 20, 2010, 08:55:12 pm
Those 2 were nerfed because from tests, they were destroying everything. Everything else was reduced by 10. Also, if you are planning to use MA gear and MAUP for Oracle, you need to rethink it.

11 MA, 70 caster, 40 target, 0 M-EV - 50%

At least 50% to cripple at least 1 unit for 2 turns, 4 range, and a small cast time(might use Short Charge here to speed things up, or maybe Defense UP), while having great HP(maybe some status protection instead, but whatever floats your boat) for a mage since you don't need the MA gear that much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 20, 2010, 08:58:30 pm
I never set the standard of targeting 70 faith units. I will point out, however, that there is usually one unit on a team with high faith -> this unit is easily shut down.
In my opinion, what's stopping people from running all 40 faith guys are the following:
Revival limited to PD, wish, and revive, all easily negated
Healing isn't too great - 120 with Hi-Potion, ~140ish with X-Potion, Chakra needs a monk/someone with Martial Arts to heal for a relevant amount
No buffs - Haste, Wall, etc
Not many ways to have AoE damage - Draw Out, Elemental, that's basically it.
No status infliction

Now, even if there was a Yin-Yang user up against a team of 40 faith guys, they still have their other skillset - they're not useless.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 20, 2010, 09:01:15 pm
Small correction - Haste can be used by Squires (Yell - 8 MP, 100% hit)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on September 20, 2010, 09:05:36 pm
Well, the general argument still stands. =/
I'll also admit that 40 Faith teams can use element absorb as another way to heal, but that requires a lot of specialization, and mages are quite useful in that regard (better DO damage/healing, Black Magic)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Shade on September 20, 2010, 11:39:11 pm
Little correction also, Archer status attacks, grand cross(aoe), spin fist(aoe), cover fire(also aoe), dancers skills, ninjas status infliction, bards status buffs, samurai's buffs, samurai's muramase healing, geomancer and samurai has status infliction also, and another buff from squire(to me square) cheer up and bards healing.




I also think that mages aren't better at healing at all, more weaker to be corrected since raise, raise 2(these two on same skillset) and fairy(and maybe re-raise abilities, just maybe) are only way to raise and in healing there is cure spells and moogle.

40 faith units could crush almost any mage filled team easy and could stand to another teams.

So I am saying the argument falls pretty flat there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 21, 2010, 12:06:09 am
Quote from: "PX_Timefordeath"If the success rate is 30% at 70/40 faith, that says just how high the actually % to land is. If it were 70/70, I'm sure it'd hit every time. Do you want Paralyze/Sleep/Petrifies hitting 40 faith units at a 60% rate? That's just retarded, as it'll ruin the metagame.
See my table above.  A 70 Fa target with MEv will take a chunk out of the success rate.  The success rate of Paralyze on a 70 Fa 0 MEv target for a 11 Ma 70 Fa oracle is roughly 90%.  Sleep is just above 80%.  Petrify is 65%.  They're not going to hit every time.  Against a 40 Fa target, by the way, the success rates are 51%, 41%, and 37%.  The spells are currently so unreliable against 40 Fa targets as to be useless.    When they do hit, the enemy can cure the ailment in one turn (and free of charge with items or Stigma Magic).  How is this any more imbalanced than one-shot Flare or Secret Fist?  A 70 Fa target is going to kiss the floor every time from a high-powered 100% accuracy Flare spell and force its team into sandbag mode, and all targets without death protection, no matter how powerful, will fall to the high-accuracy Secret Fist.

Of course 70 Fa targets will be vulnerable to Yin Yang magic; they're vulnerable to all other forms of magic as well.  There are so many lovely pieces of equipment that provide status protection: Gold Helmet, Gold Armor, Green Beret, Golden Hairpin, and so on.  Stop building status protection into the poor success rate and give players a reason to use them, or they'll default to stat boosting gear as they are now.

Quote from: "FFMaster"Also, if you are planning to use MA gear and MAUP for Oracle, you need to rethink it.
I was using max Ma and MagicAtkUP to demarcate the extreme.  Of course full Ma gear is silly.

Quote from: "FFMaster"At least 50% to cripple at least 1 unit for 2 turns, 4 range, and a small cast time(might use Short Charge here to speed things up, or maybe Defense UP), while having great HP(maybe some status protection instead, but whatever floats your boat) for a mage since you don't need the MA gear that much.
I agree.  In deference to the effect of other forms of magic against 40 Fa targets, a 50% chance to inflict a 40 Fa target with Don't Act is decent.  That is the best case, however.  Give the 40 Fa target a shield and the success rate goes south.  Hence, I suggest that Yin Yang magic ignores MEv.  Also, there's no reason to assume that the enemy will be afflicted with the status for two turns.  The AI is keen on curing status ailments.  A well built team should be able to cure status ailments on the fly, anyway.

This is how I break it down.  In the ideal case, the oracle spends one turn inflicting the status ailment and an enemy spends one turn curing it.  The net gain is zero.  Currently, the oracle has a 50% chance of failing (sticking with the 40 Fa target here).  The oracle initiates the offense, yet the oracle has a 50% chance of putting its own team down a turn right from the start, and that's before considering MEv and status protection!  In the real case, the success rate is less than 50%.  The oracle is now a liability.  By ignoring MEv, the oracle's chance to succeed does not dip below 50% for even the worst of targets (unless it's Petrify or Sleep, and rightly so, since those status effects are more dangerous).  Initiative now favours the oracle, as it rightly should, because luck is on its side.  In addition, Ma now possesses greater efficacy in increasing success rate on average.

Quote from: "CT5Holy"I'll also admit that 40 Faith teams can use element absorb as another way to heal, but that requires a lot of specialization, and mages are quite useful in that regard (better DO damage/healing, Black Magic)
Draw Out is an effective way to heal 40 Fa teams.  All it requires is one piece of equipment that absorbs an element on all characters.  This immunizes your team from your enemy's use of the element as a bonus.  Admittedly, options are limited to fire and wind absorption.

Quote from: "CT5Holy"Not many ways to have AoE damage - Draw Out, Elemental, that's basically it.
And both Draw Out and Elemental are two of the most potent forms of offense.  These abilities ignore Brave and Faith modifiers, which, in my opinion, breaks the system for everything else (unless the abilities are made incredibly weak or "unbuffable"), but this is all going off on a tangent.

Sorry for picking apart your posts, everyone.  Quoting simply helps me keep my rebuttals from being too wordy, which they evidently already are.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on September 21, 2010, 06:04:56 am
No need to apologize when you have a point.

As it stands now, at the very least, the elimination of a necessary Faith total makes magical, spell-based units, much less teams, innately weaker, especially since Geomancers and Samurai (and, to a much less extent, Mediators) can utilize MA without any of the hassle of charge time or MP costs or avoidance and Concentrate pretty much shores up everything else on the physical end.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 01, 2010, 08:05:50 am
Should all healing spells that have holy as element to be changed since absorb is halved?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: philsov on October 01, 2010, 12:11:31 pm
......is there anything that actually absorbs Holy in the first place?

I like Cure being holy elemental, as it allows for boosting via equips.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 01, 2010, 02:39:52 pm
excalibur and chameleon robe
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 01, 2010, 05:47:51 pm
Yeah, they will lose Holy element.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 01, 2010, 10:19:18 pm
Proposed changes to Equip X. Mostly similar to Skip's, but I changed it a bit. Agree/disagree?

Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (Equip Light Blade)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (Equip Heavy Blade)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole (Equip Polearm)
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book (Equip Magegear)
Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats/Robes (Equip Clothes)
Equip Shield -> Unchanged
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on October 02, 2010, 02:50:11 am
Agreed.  A much better change imo.

I haven't looked at the tables but always a good thing to look to see if any of these are impossible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 02, 2010, 03:02:41 am
Yeah, these are all possible. Robes couldn't be put with Rods, so I moved it to Clothes/Hats. Anyway, I've tested it and it works perfectly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on October 02, 2010, 10:31:08 am
Huh, those actually seem perfect for what I would require, except for the Katana, Guns, and Ninja Swords...(took them out/changed them into something else)

They are much more broad, so they give more use as supports. I approve.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Kaz on October 02, 2010, 04:10:38 pm
same, i likey
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on October 02, 2010, 04:11:55 pm
I assume the new Equip X abilities will be moved around (where appropriate) and JP costs adjusted?
Either way, it looks good.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Melancthon on October 02, 2010, 07:01:38 pm
I have wanted "Equip Stick" forever.  I can't wait to try it on a Samurai.  Some of these might end up being OP, but perhaps not with the new balancing.  Equip Cloths Lancers and Samurai have potential.  Anyway, I love the idea and look forward to trying them out!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on October 09, 2010, 12:52:03 am
I have another suggestion that's slightly more benign.  Can the JP cost on stat recovery items be lowered to, say, 80 apiece?  This will allow item users to be on status duty without feeling the JP crunch.  Expanding recovery options will help once monsters hit the field.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 09, 2010, 04:35:40 am
I will reduce the more expensive ones, but not to 80. 80 JP to cure Don't Move/Dont Act? Curing Zombie is much more powerful than curing Poison.

I was thinking

Echo Grass - 80 JP
Maiden's Kiss - 120 JP
Soft - 130 JP
Holy Water - 300 JP
Bandage - 250 JP

EDIT: And yes, removal of minimum Faith has had a huge impact on the metagame. With monsters entering the fray, I think the standard would probably become 40 Faith for every unit. Time to dust off Ninja skillset and put it on Paladin I guess.

EDIT2:
Class/Skill changes list so far
- Paladins can now equip Axes and Katanas
- Archers can now equip Guns
- Thieves can now equip Swords
- Lancers can now equip Poles
- All Cure spells, Raise 1/2 and Fairy lose Holy Element
- Meatbone Slash moves to Samurai(from Monk)
- Steal Heart no longer requires opposite gender
- Equip X reworked
   Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (Equip Light Blade - Thief, 350JP)
   Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (Equip Heavy Blade - Paladin, 400JP)
   Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole (Equip Polearm - Lancer, 350JP)
   Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged - Archer, 400JP)
   Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book (Equip Magegear - Scholar, 250JP)
   Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats/Robes (Equip Clothes - Squire, 250JP)
   Equip Armor -> Unchanged
   Equip Shield -> Unchanged
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on October 09, 2010, 01:35:48 pm
I am liking all of these proposed changes, especially the proposal to add some sort of inverse-faith Inquisition style ability to the paladin skillset, speaking of which...

Inquisition: Range 4, AoE 0, deals (100-Cfaith) * (100-Tfaith) * PA * 20 non-elemental damage, CT 0, MP cost 10

The ninja justus already deal inverse faith elemental damage, and as such have a higher damage potential with elemental boosting, so I think the paladin inverse faith ability should be non-elemental for reliability at the cost of damage.

Also, does anybody else think that Dia would be a little better if it were either moved to the Priest or used the elemental damage formula?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 09, 2010, 07:19:21 pm
Quote from: "FFMaster"I will reduce the more expensive ones, but not to 80. 80 JP to cure Don't Move/Dont Act? Curing Zombie is much more powerful than curing Poison.

I was thinking

Echo Grass - 80 JP
Maiden's Kiss - 120 JP
Soft - 130 JP
Holy Water - 300 JP
Bandage - 250 JP



Stigma magic 100 jp, Heals Ptrf, Conf, Brsk, Sil, Blnd, Frog, Psn, Slp, DA, DM

Esuna 280 jp, heals same as stigma magic

Vampire and zombie are status only from chemist and should be only one that costs that much, bandage could be still be halve less man.

Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"Also, does anybody else think that Dia would be a little better if it were either moved to the Priest or used the elemental damage formula?

I had priests with dia they did 150 damage on neutral and 70 to 70 faith. Easy way to kill 70 faith units. Sadly now that elemental absorb are halved, cause I was using it as healing method(paladins with excalibur). It was 6 range 150 hp heal instanly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on October 09, 2010, 07:43:29 pm
But remember, Stigma has 0 vert and no range. Esuna has a charge time, which really hurts it when healing DM/DA. I've seen units get healed of DM/DA from Esuna after they move way too many times.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on October 09, 2010, 08:35:29 pm
Remember DA takes 1-2 turns to stop. Item also has no range unless you give throw item(250 jp more) or have unit as chemist. Also remember that stigma magic is aoe not single target. I have seen esuna do instant heals and it's aoe too. Finally both of them heal all those status instead of one or 2.

Item skill set takes too much jp to begin with(x-pot, hi-ether, maiden's kiss, soft, holy water, bandage, pd 1500 jp[at the moment]). So why is bandage still so damm high jp?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on October 10, 2010, 08:06:15 pm
It seems like Squire's C-EV should be a tad lower. I'm not sure why though. It would seem more right with the other growths.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 06, 2010, 06:36:20 pm
BETA124 Changelog
GENERAL
- All equipment done with text editting


JOBS
- Paladins can now equip Axes and Katanas
- Archers can now equip Guns
- Thieves can now equip Swords
- Lancers can now equip Poles
- Ninja gains 1 PA
- Mime reaction changed to Counter Flood

SKILLS
- Chemist Skill JP costs changed(most skills around 80-150 JP)
- Cure 3 now 250 JP
- Cure 4 now 350 JP
- Raise 2 now 300 JP
- Holy now 500 JP
- Level 2 black magic now 120 JP
- Level 3 black magic now 190 JP
- Level 4 Black magic now 260 JP
- Death now 400 JP
- Flare now 550 JP
- All Cure spells, Raise 1/2 and Fairy lose Holy Element
- Meatbone Slash moves to Samurai(from Monk)
- Steal Heart no longer requires opposite gender
- Equip X reworked
Equip Sword -> Equip Sword/Knife/Ninja Sword (Equip Light Blade - Thief, 350JP)
Equip Axe -> Equip Axe/Knightsword/Katana (Equip Heavy Blade - Paladin, 400JP)
Equip Spear -> Equip Spear/Pole (Equip Polearm - Lancer, 350JP)
Equip Bow -> Equip Bow/Crossbow/Gun (Equip Ranged - Archer, 400JP)
Equip Gun -> Equip Rod/Staff/Book (Equip Magegear - Scholar, 250JP)
Equip Knife -> Equip Clothes/Hats/Robes (Equip Clothes - Squire, 250JP)
Equip Armor -> Unchanged
Equip Shield -> Unchanged
- Draw Outs which deal damage are now Magic evadable
- Chirijiraden is now 400 JP


ITEMS
- All equipment with Absorb: X is always neutral

Unless someone objects, or I am missing something.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 06, 2010, 06:48:28 pm
Thieves should be able to equip guns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 07, 2010, 02:39:50 am
And the justification for Thieves being able to equip guns would be...? It's not like these things are pistols, so I'm legitimately curious.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 07, 2010, 04:45:21 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"And the justification for Thieves being able to equip guns would be...? It's not like these things are pistols, so I'm legitimately curious.

Aren't they pistols?

Thieves are more likely to be carrying pistols than Knives. Thieves are stereotyped with knives only in the FFT series. How many times do you see a thieve hold a store at knife point?

Wouldn't hurt to change it up a bit and try something new.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 08, 2010, 01:33:31 am
I think only the Blast Gun or something is a pistol. Like with everything else, it'd been months since I've looked at the sprites of...anything, much less the weapons. That said, the guns in this game tend to be more like shotguns or rifles than pistols.

Also, you'd be surprised what people can hold up a store with and have, but that's not really a valid point of comparison for justifying things anyway, so let's drop that argument please.

I'm all for listening to (most) possible changes, but considering that no one has even tested out the last couple of rounds of changes, that Thieves' changes really have been tested that much as it is and that Guns are still kind of a big deal for classes to have innately even with Projectile Guard means that it should warrant some caution.

Still, I could have asked a better question: Why do you think that Thieves need Guns enough for you to suggest that they do?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 08, 2010, 09:11:17 am
Also, think thieves of this time period... a gun would be very counter-productive, as it was all about stealth. So... nix!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 08, 2010, 04:00:10 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"I think only the Blast Gun or something is a pistol. Like with everything else, it'd been months since I've looked at the sprites of...anything, much less the weapons. That said, the guns in this game tend to be more like shotguns or rifles than pistols.

Also, you'd be surprised what people can hold up a store with and have, but that's not really a valid point of comparison for justifying things anyway, so let's drop that argument please.

I'm all for listening to (most) possible changes, but considering that no one has even tested out the last couple of rounds of changes, that Thieves' changes really have been tested that much as it is and that Guns are still kind of a big deal for classes to have innately even with Projectile Guard means that it should warrant some caution.

Still, I could have asked a better question: Why do you think that Thieves need Guns enough for you to suggest that they do?

I never considered it an argument. I just gave a suggestion, that really didn't deserve any justification. I thought it would be cool to give thieves a gun, so I posted it. After all, it is a forum, and we are here to help.

P.S. Sorry for posting; I'm not very in depth when it comes to formulas and stuff like that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 09, 2010, 12:31:49 am
No need to apologize for suggesting something. I knew it was a suggestion; I was just wondering why you thought that it should be that way or why you thought Thieves might need Guns.

I suppose I should try to refrain from using "argument" so casually in the future since I tend to use it in the neutral "logical argument" sense and keep forgetting that it carries negative connotations of anger and such to most people.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 09, 2010, 04:23:14 am
Tables updated to match BETA124.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 09, 2010, 10:55:22 am
I see by the changelog that bards and dancers have regained Cheer Song and Slow Dance, is there any particular reason for this? I ask because song/dance is still currently mimeable correct? permament +/- speed has a huge effect, since the ONLY way to counter it is by running the same thing yourself. The same goes for all the stat beaks, actually, its just that speed has a much larger effect per pont of increase/decrease.

I'm not sure what to do about this though, +/- speed can be easily changed to haste/slow status, (Speed save is still a problem for now though) but +/- PA/MA is a trickier matter (Not as much of a priority though, since it mostly only affects the unit's ability to deal damage, and there are plenty of unit builds that are perfectly viable even with PA/MA both reduced to 1).

In my dream world, Berserk, Faith and Innocent status would all behave like the Chicken status, in that they are triggered by going above/below certain brave/faith thresholds and your brave/faith is restored/depleted every turn until you return to that theshold (at which point the status terminates). I'd also make it so that both brave and faith are capped at +/- 50% damage dealt/recieved. For faith, this actually makes more sense then the current model, where you can become immune to a REAL TANGIBLE EFFECT by not believing it it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 09, 2010, 03:10:49 pm
I brought back Cheer Song/Slow Dance to see how much it affected the game. It is a powerful ability, yes, but it would take a while to see the effects, just like Speed Save. Right now, I much prefer Lore + Mime + Speed Save anyway. 70% to trigger compared to 50%. I am pretty worried about Slow Dance though.

And you can keep dreaming about those statii, it won't happen any time soon =p.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 09, 2010, 03:22:06 pm
Quote from: "FFMaster"I much prefer Lore + Mime + Speed Save anyway.

But mime can counter with counter flood now, and kill the lore user, making this tactic alot riskier then 3 mime's and slow dance, or cheer song
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 09, 2010, 06:43:03 pm
I say lower Cheer Song and Slow Dance to 25% hit
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 10, 2010, 01:09:16 am
Agreed, but sadly we need to wait next version.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 10, 2010, 01:55:56 am
Yay at Mimes getting Counter Flood and Draw Out being M. Evadable. (I'm guessing we can't make Geomancy M. Evadable, though, right?)

Boo at not getting to test Half Absorb and Cheer Song & Slow Dance returning.

Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"In my dream world, Berserk, Faith and Innocent status would all behave like the Chicken status, in that they are triggered by going above/below certain brave/faith thresholds and your brave/faith is restored/depleted every turn until you return to that theshold (at which point the status terminates). I'd also make it so that both brave and faith are capped at +/- 50% damage dealt/recieved. For faith, this actually makes more sense then the current model, where you can become immune to a REAL TANGIBLE EFFECT by not believing it it.

Wow, it is really eerie how much we think alike on certain things.

Well, I guess since Skip already addressed everything else I was going to address, there's nothing more to stay here with regards to version 124.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: ffta707 on November 11, 2010, 03:39:59 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"No need to apologize for suggesting something. I knew it was a suggestion; I was just wondering why you thought that it should be that way or why you thought Thieves might need Guns.

I suppose I should try to refrain from using "argument" so casually in the future since I tend to use it in the neutral "logical argument" sense and keep forgetting that it carries negative connotations of anger and such to most people.

No worries. XD
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 12, 2010, 08:59:13 pm
Is Steal Heart unisex?  It seems to still be opposite sex only.
Unrelatedly, I think handbags are using the axe formula, I am getting beastly damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 12, 2010, 09:09:55 pm
Bags have always used axe formula.

Also, I thought Steal Heart was made no sex? It's probably just the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 12, 2010, 09:11:22 pm
Yeah, seems I forgot to save the fftpatch when I did the quick change for Steal Heart. And yes, bags use the Axe formula. I may nerf them a bit more though.

Expect a new patch to fix these problems + Speed Song/Dance in a few hours.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 12:15:45 am
As people have seen a a little while ago, pokeytax managed to pull out 70% Charms by maximising MA and using the MA*2+X formula really well. However we can actually increase it even more.

For example, if we used MAUP, it would easily break the 80% hit rate, and maybe break 85%. PX calculated that the max so far is 91% at neutral compat. Even worse, stuff like Mimic Daravon, Blackmail(1.3's Threaten) and a bunch of other skills will have this effect as well. Faith based hit% spells do not get as big an improvement, but it is still there. Now, what should be done?

Here are a couple things I can think of:
- Change hit% formula back to MA*X
- Reduce the X for those spells
- Leave things as they are(too early to say whether it is too powerful)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on November 14, 2010, 12:27:33 am
I think without question it is too powerful, leaving the last option not really an option. Without a X value, Charm with max equipment and mau would then hit 56% on neutral compatibility. That could be used as a baseline to determine how much of a X those status spells that use MA*2 + X should have. I would rather not have the first option and keep ma as a more important factor in the faith based status spells.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on November 14, 2010, 01:07:39 am
The problem if we reduce the X, then low MA units suffer even more from using these skills (Steal Heart, Talk Skills). Old formula of MA+X is probably the way to go.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 14, 2010, 09:41:49 am
Part of the problem is it's easier to get high MA across a range of classes in Arena - you don't have to completely sacrifice HP to get a Samurai with 17 MA.

K+MA*2 for unisex Steal Heart is absurdly broken, I'm still not sure how I dropped three matches running around with Allure.  I hate charm.  I think you should drop it to K+MA and keep K around 35, charming both genders is a huge buff.  Maybe even just make it K. I hate charm.

K+MA*2 for Talk Skill?  Probably pretty strong, but not necessarily broken.  A lot of these skills need a boost. Maybe drop the K on Mimic Daravon, which is the only talk skill that can turn a match around like Steal Heart.

K+MA*2 for faith-based magic was a much needed change.  It's basically K+MA for 70 faith targets, K+0.6*MA for 40 faith targets.  If your MA is cranked to the roof with Magic Attack UP, I don't see anything wrong with a success rate of 75% on the Death spell.  It's not costless to invest in MA gear.

Magic can also be evaded and reacted to, while Talk Skill and Steal Heart are unevadable and unreactable.  That is a serious strength.

If you have to choose one I would go back to K+MA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 14, 2010, 09:52:22 am
ma only shit back to old formula and faith shit not.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 02:52:19 pm
Quote from: "Shade"ma only shit back to old formula and faith shit not.
Not possible with my current knowledge.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 14, 2010, 03:38:07 pm
Steal heart needs to go back to a gendered formula for sure, it is instant, ranged, moderate to high success% depending on optimization.

We could replace Confusion Song with a Charm spell, so we can have our non-gendered charm status, but balanced by CT, MP cost, and vunerability to silence/low faith
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 14, 2010, 03:41:47 pm
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"Steal heart needs to go back to a gendered formula for sure, it is instant, ranged, moderate to high success% depending on optimization.

We could replace Confusion Song with a Charm spell, so we can have our non-gendered charm status, but balanced by CT, MP cost, and vunerability to silence/low faith


This, plus it gets rid of the "problem" of stalemates.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 07:26:46 pm
Reckon the lack of Charm recovering abilities could be affecting this?

Also random side

Hit% for Steal Heart
Arena - MA*2 + 35%
1.3 - MA + 40%

And right now, I am liking Skip's suggestion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 10:19:02 pm
What do you guys think of making Steal Heart Speed + 40% chance to hit?

EDIT: What about ways to heal Charm (Esuna, Stigma Magic, Item, maybe a new Paladin Skill?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 14, 2010, 10:57:12 pm
40 + SP is much better, 35 maybe?  I still think it is too strong as a unisex ability, but since Charm doesn't last forever like in vanilla it's not gamebreaking.  More ways to heal Charm without having to inflict damage might help too - not sure how the AI would react, but worth a try.

A Charm spell is a lot less problematic because of CT/Faith, that's a good idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 14, 2010, 11:13:15 pm
Here is the current changelog

Changelog
GENERAL
- Previous bugs fixed

JOBS
- Thief gains a new buyabe reaction: Awareness - 200 JP(front evasion% for all sides)

SKILLS
- Secret Fist is now evadable and is now Hit_(MA*2+50)%
- Steal Heart is now Hit_(Speed+35)%
- Blackmail, Insult and Mimic Daravon X reduced by 10
- Confusion Song replaced with Beguile
- Shuriken is now 6 range
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton are now 6 range and are not evadable
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 15, 2010, 12:09:42 am
I propose we buff up Poison to 1/4th Max HP Damage a tick. As it is right now, move hp+ nearly cancels it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on November 15, 2010, 12:33:23 am
Demi per turn? That's ridiculous. Up to 1/6 Max HP seems more reasonable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on November 15, 2010, 01:03:51 am
I think the damage done by Poison is solid enough, but I wouldn't mind seeing it buffed through ct.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 15, 2010, 09:40:00 am
IIRC, the hack to buff poison damage changes it to 1/4th Current HP, rather then rather then the current 1/8th max hp.

As for ways to heal Charm status, anything that used to cure/prevent confusion should now cure/prevent charm, since we've removed confusion anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 15, 2010, 11:04:59 am
While testing Salty Rage I found Abandon + Darkness means 0% chance to hit, even with Concentrate.  That's pretty strong.
Poison could be stronger, but it's a useful drain on resources now.  Move-HP Up can naff off though.
Awareness is nifty, and a useful alternative to Abandon, but strengthens Concentrate further.  Who cares though, it's already a guaranteed equip on most physical teams anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 15, 2010, 05:00:01 pm
Changes to Elemental(still under construction)
ELEMENTAL
Pitfall - Darkness
Water Ball - Frog
Hell Ivy - Slow
Carve Model - Petrify
Local Quake - Don't Move
Kamaitachi - Silence
Demon Fire - Oil
Quicksand - Death Sentence
Sand Storm - Stop
Blizzard - Sleep
Gusty Wind - Don't Act
Lava Ball - Dead


EDIT: I wouldn't trust the %'s for that Darkness hack. Wait until next patch before we discuss Darkness.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 15, 2010, 08:55:57 pm
I like these changes, it puts the power of various elemental attacks a bit more in line with how common those surface types are. One thing though, I see that Demon Fire inflicts Oil status, but I was under the impression that Oil status has not been fixed in Arena, is that incorrect? It would be great if that is the case, since it would be quite a fun status to play around with.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 15, 2010, 09:05:43 pm
Oil is getting implemented next patch, assuming Razele's hack works.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 16, 2010, 11:08:02 am
If I recall correctly, formerdeathcorps fixed the Oil hack in his topic. He also had some other nifty hacks as well. But yeah, he separated the Float from the Oil hack and also separately fixed the Float hack.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 16, 2010, 02:51:20 pm
Dancers and Bards need a buff.  Sick of seeing Singing and Dancing Paladins.  I am guilty too, but a Paladin is a washing machine with legs.  No one wants to see or hear that garbage.  Dancers and Bards should either be reasonable choices to Sing and Dance with, or reasonable choices to actually fight with.

You could buff Harps and Cloth - Cloth is especially weak, let's not even get into the cruel irony of excellent W-EV% on a Performing weapon.  They are actually very cool and clever right now, but right now the balance is "Initial: Protect, Defend" vs. "Equip Armor and Equip Shield innate and 60 HP" which is not a fair contest.  Fairy Harp and Bloody Strings are more like it!  Just, not enough to justify a Bard right now.  

You could buff the classes themselves.  The simplest solution is innate Overwhelm (which might even make them better at Life/Angel/Wiznaibus/Witch Hunt than other classes!) Or you could tinker with growths - because there is no male Dancer, you can set higher growths and balance Dancer against male PA classes, and Bard against female MA classes.  Or you could do more off-the-wall stuff (Bard MPM 150, Dancer C-EV% 45? Two Hand Harps, Two Sword Cloth, or Pole Dancer comedy option).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 19, 2010, 08:04:39 pm
Shadow Shade on Scholars only hits the first target currently. (Not a popular ability I assume)

Kinda ruined my gag group... oh wait, I know how to fix it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 19, 2010, 11:18:09 pm
That might be because of the animation I chose. I'll check it really quickly.

EDIT: Yeah, the animation doesn't like hitting multiple units. But it works just fine. Will be fixed in next patch.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gotwald on November 20, 2010, 09:16:53 pm
Could we just make the scholar spells look like other spells? Like, have the earth tome spell look like quake? it would go WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY faster, and should still show the animation for the damage and healing (as quake already does that)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 20, 2010, 09:35:04 pm
We could, yeah, but it would be confusing since they already have the Quake spell, which uses that exact same animation. Spell names already do not appear, and now they have 2 spells which use the exact same animation? I agree the slowdown is bad, but that will just confuse people even more. I would rather remove persevere from Scholar and double the damage it deals.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 21, 2010, 03:02:38 pm
Paladins seem kinda overpowered.  Best HP, best PA, best equips, an actual skillset instead of Battle Skill, enough MP to cast any spell you want a Paladin casting.

Wiznaibus is unusable, my team certainly isn't the best possible setup but a dead slot would have been better.  I think 2.5x damage and 2x CT might make it barely garbage-tier viable.

I'll kinda miss the artificial Cheer Song from Speed Save/Lore, but I think FFMaster's solution is best, all in all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Zaen on November 21, 2010, 03:44:53 pm
Yeah... Paladins are OP. Especially with Axes. I mean, 712 damage? Ridiculous. They are basically 1HKO killing machines in most cases. It would almost be best to make Squires more of a Knight class with better PA, slightly lower HP, Ultima + Breaks or something like that, and Axes. Then, ...axing... axes from Paladin.

Just a few possible remedies.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 21, 2010, 05:44:13 pm
How about 812 damage on 1.3 without any kind of damage boost(at AI tournament). It's called luck, axes damage calculation is pure luck. They aren't usually one shotters. At best axes would be changed to lower damage or something. Don't know about best equips, They can equip, or some other very usefull clothes.
20 HP to next best HP
1 PA to next PA
Paladins are lacking MP compared to geomancer and squire
Paladins MA is low
They have also only 4 move
They have maybe the next best equipment at best
They don't have very usefull skillset(even AI doesn't seem to use it much as it does every other skillset)

Their best ability is that they aren't complicated at all, their skillset is yes, but their hp and pa makes them easy to use for straight damage or just tanking. They are not the class that is OP, but it's overrated. I don't see any reason to change expect their skillset.

It's funny that squires have the best equips, very good stats, very good skillset(because of so many difffrent type of abilities(buffs, revival, status heal, PA increasing ability, strong magic, dash and throw stone very good at damage(I have seen 140 damage without crits or anything based on luck), not counting reactions and stuff), So why would you change that class? Squire is so underrated!

Comments on Paladin skillset(not on reactions and stuff):
Nurse: Don't know haven't seen how does AI use it, but it so far doesn't seem to be usefull. It could be kick ass abilty if you would add protect to it :D
Dia:  ... It's so good againts high faith units, but it's no strong on knight at all, so take it for someones else skillset
Consecration: FASTLY WEAK COMPARED TO SEAL EVIL
Transfusion: You could give it HP buff, cause every another aoe heal doesn't take damage and they are good as this(also can be boosted to be even better while transfusion, not so much).
Iron will: Only use that I can think is when AI is at crit and has move hp up, this would add protect and regen to be pain to finish off, but nurse is better then this and even nurse isn't very good
Magic Ward:Only reason to use this if you have full hp and someone is charging at you deadly spell that will follow you and you are out of range to do anything. I doubt that this would be ever used...
Grand cross: could be the best ability to have out of all, just haven't used it.

Overall:
Not good, I have foun every skillset better then this, even
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 21, 2010, 07:54:21 pm
I don't think the graphic overlap will matter. People will see Scholar, see charging, see it hitting every unit on the map. It should be self-evident, even if the graphic was Ice 1... but the graphic should be lined up with the element.

Paladin for stats + Equip Armor/Shield. Squire for stats + Equip Shield. Paladin skillset does seem to be... lacking, but nobody picks Paladin for the skills. In my mind for skillsets, all I'm looking at is "Status Cure? Worthwhile status Inflict? Rez? Anti-Critical, not-terrible-for-AI heal? MP heal? Haste? Slow? Imba Ability?"

Squire: Status Cure, Rez, Haste... haven't tested Throw Stone or Ultima yet. Squire seems OP to me.
Paladin: Heal, AI never used Grand Cross for me :(. Seems OP too, but only due to HP, PA, and Armor. Would be nice for there to be multiple subpar-skillset "Please Salty Rage Me" jobs, defining each with higher HP, higher PA, or versatile equips... not all 3 on one job.
Scholar: All Magic ruins AI so they'll never Wish/Phoenix Down. Good? Bad? I get annoyed with it, just because my Scholar has Phoenix Down, and ignores using it 'cause she's casting Natural Selection, but I like it too, 'cause anti-Sandbag is good, and they therefore have a niche.
Geomancer: The damage does get a bit ridiculous sometimes, with ignoring Evasion/Faith... I guess that's all Elemental does, so I'm not callin' for a nerf, just some QQ. Stats being across-the-board worse than Squire is an eyebrow raiser, especially since Squires get a very utility-packed skillset.
My 1.3 suggestion on Cheer Song: Clone of Nameless which only does Haste. I do hate how potent Haste is when only 2-3 sources are worthwhile. Time Magic, Yell (sorta)...

Lemme know if I get Shuriken nerfed... least I'm trying to. A Save Punch Art isn't as cool as I thought it'd be, so I doubt that'll get nerfed. MA Save... bah, wasn't impressed. Maybe on a Mediator?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 24, 2010, 11:22:44 pm
First and foremost, I'm liking most of the 127 changes, especially Cover Fire, Draw Out and Geomancy/Elemental (though the table doesn't say it is) being evadable now. Not sure how I feel about Critical Quick (which still says it activates on criticals only) and MP Restore activating outside of critical, but I can definitely see why, even if I'm rather weary of the former. We'll see how that takes (eventually).

Secondly, I have to say it's pretty awesome that Oil is working now. FFH did something the original designers of the game couldn't (or didn't, considering other things, get time to) fix. That's definitely something to be proud of.

Next, I would only ask what I say next be considered as suggestions and not taken as demands, especially since I've been kind of gone/inactive as of late.

Lastly, I might as well admit that there is also a bit of bias in the last two suggestions, if only because no one else besides me (at least that I can actively recall right now) seems to use the abilities in question. I will also note that I'm probably going to use bold a lot, even given how obnoxious it will probably look; my apologies in advance:



I think that's all the suggestions I have at the moment. I hate to come back and go right back to being a long-winded, nagging asshole, but I guess some things will never change, even as much as Arena rapidly might.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 26, 2010, 12:40:22 am
Never tested, but I heard Fly negates falling damage if you're knocked off a cliff, which makes it more potent than Teleport in an AI setting unless it's one of those rare settings with two heights. Same cost imo, up near 500. Move-HP Up could use a cost raise since it's a definitive best-in-slot... Unless we're trying to make all move skills on par... and nerf HP Up to the ground.

Critical Quick: should I try to break this? It's just asking for it... thinking double Sage + Mime + Crit Quick Conc Pally... or MA Up Squire. I'll replace my gag team with this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 26, 2010, 12:42:16 am
You can't abuse what has already been fixed. It was a coding error. All hosts should import the new BATTLE.BIN.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 26, 2010, 01:57:44 am
Bah... back to the old gag team then.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 26, 2010, 10:38:54 am
The new Lore animations are an improvement.  Cover Fire is still wicked (it was marked as evadeable before I thought) but lots of people are running it so it's getting tested.  Have to remind myself the point of balance is not to remove all effective abilities!

Many JP costs, especially R/S/M, could be overhauled.  I don't think lesser Reactions will ever get used until you have to make harder choices to get Speed Save or Damage Split.

The movement slot is kind of terrible and not much can be done about it (I'm assuming they're a pain to hack).

All of The Damned's changes seem reasonable.  I am going to run a Death Sentence team soon because I think adding Cancel: Death Sentence to Cancel: Dead items is a huge buff to the status, and Holy Water might be a good balance to that.

Right now a Monk can hit 19 PA out of the box, which is pretty sick - I would either drop the 2 PA handbag or revert Monk PA or both.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on November 26, 2010, 02:32:47 pm
All items with Cancel: Dead do have Cancel: Death Sentence already
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 26, 2010, 05:32:13 pm
Also make grand cross not hit on user(makes AI not use at all).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 26, 2010, 06:48:39 pm
Speaking of Paladin skills targeting the user, something just occurred to me: FFMaster, can Dia target and hit the person casting it? The answer I want to hear is "yes", but first I need confirmation one way or the other and it's not like it's something that makes or breaks things.

Also speaking of Paladin skills, the life gain from Nurse probably needs to be nerfed to within the 20%-25% range.

Also, I forgot earlier, but Float (Time Mage Movement) could probably stand to be a bit cheaper since it's basically just a glorified Jump +1 that competes with other Movement skills as well as Feather Boots given that the Volcano map is almost never used. Sure, it has Earth immunity, but most people that are concerned with Earth will just use a piece of equipment to absorb it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 26, 2010, 08:05:06 pm
Maintainence can lose a bit in JP cost, yes.

For Holy Water, I do like the idea of removing DS/Oil.

Similar agreements to Maiden's Kiss.

I can make Dia be able to hit the caster, which would be very interesting.

As for super reactions like Damage Split, I'm not too sure about raising the cost. They already take a lot to buy.

As for Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up, I am quite sure I can change the formula they use. In fact, it *may* be possible to make multiple variants of it, each one using a different formula.

The rest, I have no opinion on.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 27, 2010, 08:51:48 am
Personally, I think that Speed Save could stand to be even more expensive due to how Speed pretty much strengthens everything and thus is so important. It's also (a lot) easier to abuse Speed Save than it is Damage Split, which I think should probably left as is JP-wise, because even as abuse as it can be, it can backfire (also unlike Speed Save) and inherently weak to Two Swords. The only debilitating thing about Speed Save is that you go through 300 CT (much) more quickly and thus "die" permanently (much) faster than other units. That's not really enough as it is, especially with Lore around to whore with it.

Completely un-related to that (well, I guess not really since I've been wondering this about Lore), how do we tell what's (still) Reflectable and what isn't? I didn't really think to look until I stumbled across the S4 AI tournament--that I somehow completely missed--videos in the 1.3 section.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 29, 2010, 11:35:14 am
Shuriken's formula is OP, with knight sword it does same amount as knight sword would do, not only that, but you can icrease it by speed save, with setup that use lore.
Resulting in 400 hp knight that moves fast and does 200 damage at range instantly.

I wondered that if having strong weapon would make strong, it seems I was right.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 29, 2010, 12:02:29 pm
I have to concur with Shade about Shuriken being rather disgustingly overpowered, though I think it's more a problem of Concentrate, Paladins and Speed Save all being overpowered individually at present than it is about abuse of Knight Swords, especially when the strongest Knight Swords have the least benefits. I'll quote what I just said in the video thread:

Quote from: "The Damned"Hmmm...despite it arguably being Ninjutsu's only useful skill, Shuriken needs some type of chance, if perhaps being made evadable. (Concentrated EDIT: Oh, it already is Physically Evadable. Damn Concentrate.) It probably needs more than considering how much Speed Save makes it ridiculous. Oh well, more fodder for my argument that Speed Save's JP cost needs to be increased even more.

Speaking of crappy Ninjutsu Skills, man does Shinobi's Seal blow. I think I've only ever seen it hit twice and even when it did, it didn't do anything worthwhile.

Shuriken definitely needs a formula change since it can be made unavoidable with Concentrate. Problem would be what to change it to given the current...restrictions on usable formulas. I unfortunately can't suggest in anything off the top of my head since I'm well aware how much most of them suck.

Shinobi's Seal definitely needs a boost, though. I would actually say the same thing about Sunken State (in that it needs a JP reduction), but I'd sooner see that skill disappear entirely than start to give a damn about it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on November 29, 2010, 12:33:23 pm
The presence of the ARH means that we can get really creative in assigning restrictions to the use of various abilities. For example, we can make Shuriken only useable while Throw Item is also equipped, or only usable while under Transparent status or only  usable while equipping knives or ninja swords, for example.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on November 29, 2010, 12:37:33 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"I have to concur with Shade about Shuriken being rather disgustingly overpowered, though I think it's more a problem of Concentrate, Paladins and Speed Save all being overpowered individually at present than it is about abuse of Knight Swords, especially when the strongest Knight Swords have the least benefits.

?
1. Are you talking about ragnarok and protect queen? Aren't they one of the weakest weapons in arena? I consider defenders and chaos blades benefits alot higher level
2. Give that setup 8 wp weapon and the damage will start of 75(about), just concentrate and having knight swords combined with this skill is strong. It just makes paladins very good, cause they can have concentrate and knight swords at the same time.

Shinobi seal should be 75% atleast IMO
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 29, 2010, 01:35:10 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"...though I think it's more a problem of Concentrate, Paladins and Speed Save all being overpowered individually...

Yes, yes, and yes.

Concentrate: really kills part of the game. I don't know what nerf would be possible. Can it consider all attacks back? Ignore W-Ev/Abandon? Due to Weapon Guard innate, this support just wins for any phys unit. I was going to put it on my Paladin Puncher, but he ran out of JP. If Conc gets axed, then Abandon would be stronger, but I don't know if that'd be too much a problem.

Paladin: HP + Innate armor = lots of HP. Can set PA Save/Speed Save to make up for other stats if they're bad, but Pally PA is still nice. I'm thinking Paladins should lose the heavy weapon equips. Most encourage not using a shield, which doesn't seem very Paladiny... Or could just make Paladin skills require a Shield, but Paladins aren't well known for their skills. Could make Knight Swords only equipped by people using the support, and balance accordingly.

Speed Save: Hmm... it wouldn't be as bad if there was no attack which scaled with speed, but that's a boring solution. Reduced chance to work with armor equipped? Too abstract? I blame Scholar all-magic on making these saves even more powerful than they already are. Would there be a way to make certain skills trigger counters 50% of the time?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 29, 2010, 05:53:10 pm
Right now, the best thing I can do for Concentrate is to either remove it completely, or remove it's effects when they are inflicted with status(Darkness for example, remove Concentrate bonus and probably nerf to 30% miss chance). Maybe... I can make it just ignore 1 item EV? Like Shield EV?

For Lore, I planned to make it single cast again(no persevere) but decided against it for this version. It will probably become single cast next version.

Shinobi's Seal needs massive buffs yes, but I have been holding it out to nerf the stronger abilities first. Same for a lot of other abilities.


EDIT: Current changelog

GENERAL
- Previous bugs fixed

JOBS
- Paladin loses 1 Jump
- Paladin C-EV now 0
- Paladin MP Multiplier now 20

SKILLS
- Maintainence is now 100 JP
- Holy Water now also cancels Oil
- Maiden's Kiss now also cancels Sleep, 150 JP
- Dia can now hit caster
- Grand Cross is now Holy Elemental
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton can now hit caster
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton now (100-Faith)*(100-Faith)*PA*25 damage
- Shinobi's Seal is now Sp+70% chance to hit, seperate and inflitcs Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act(around about 20% chance for each status in tests)
- 5 Lores loses persevere and damage is doubled. Can be Short Charged.

ITEMS
- Stone Gun loses 1 WP
- C Bag loses 1 MA
- FS Bag loses 1 PA
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 30, 2010, 01:55:27 am
Those changes are looking rather nice, FFMaster. I do think that Maiden's Kiss could stand to go up to 200 JP if cancels Sleep given how long Sleep tends to last, but we should probably see how it performs at 150 JP first.

With regards to Concentrate, I think it would stop being (as) overpowered if it was actually affected by Darkness AND affected all EV except for Weapon evasion. I'd probably just test it out with the former, first, though if possible. Personally, I think that solution that Raziel said he could come with before he disappeared of making Concentrate be 100 + Br% chance to hit would be the most elegant solution, but I'm not sure if we can do that (yet).

Quote from: "Shade"1. Are you talking about ragnarok and protect queen? Aren't they one of the weakest weapons in arena? I consider defenders and chaos blades benefits alot higher level
2. Give that setup 8 wp weapon and the damage will start of 75(about), just concentrate and having knight swords combined with this skill is strong. It just makes paladins very good, cause they can have concentrate and knight swords at the same time.

Apologies for my wording it so nebulously:

1. I was referring to Defender and Chaos Blade having the highest WP of all the weapons and, arguably, the least benefits, at least of the Knight Swords. Defender could probably stand a bit of a nerf given it having the highest WP of weapons, one of the highest EVs and being one of the few weapons to prevent a Status as well. However, that's not something I want to address right now, especially since I haven't yet used Paladins with Knight Swords myself between my theme teams and my recent absence.
2. This is true.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 30, 2010, 08:42:28 am
Good changes.

Concentrate is a superpower and needs a nerf or a huge price tag.  Abandon is pretty strong and will be a superpower if 90% of physical attackers can't ignore it anymore.  Transparent is a neat status completely overshadowed by Concentrate. So you want Concentrate around, but not quite so mandatory. I think having W-EV or C-EV unaffected by Concentrate is a good starting point.

If Concentrate is affected by Darkness, Abandon + Darkness means 0% CtH always, which is sick (it was the original theme behind my Secret Hunt team). I guess it's risky to bring a team without Cancel: Petrify and it should be risky to bring a physical team without Cancel: Darkness.  I honestly can't remember how rigorous the AI is about cleansing, but I guess I've seen it use Eye Drops or Stigma Magic to do it before.

Shuriken's basically Throw so Concentrate-Throw is badass here like it is in S3/S4.  Gotta figure out a way to keep WP lower though.

Nicking 1 WP from Stone Gun is actually a decent nerf - 11 WP and Attack Up does maybe 10 more damage than unmodified 12 WP. I was originally going to run it with Salty Rage so we'll see how that goes.

I actually love Grand Cross as-is, although maybe it needs a slight buff to get the AI using it. But adding an element is going to make Paladins into combine harvesters, Defender/Diamond Helmet/108 Gems is a 240 splash that selfheals for 290 after Fury.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 30, 2010, 02:24:09 pm
ST. AJORA Speed Save, Damage Split
STRONG    Auto-Potion, Counter, HP Restore, MP Restore, C.Flood, Dragon Spirit, Abandon
WEAK      C.Tackle, Arrow Guard, Regenerator, C.Magic, C.Quick, Awareness, Meatbone, PA Save, MA Save
TRASH     Caution, Finger Guard, Absorb Used MP, Distribute, Brave Up, Faith Up

ST. AJORA Concentrate
STRONG    E. Armor, MD UP, MA UP, Short Charge, Defense UP, Attack UP, Two Hands, Two Swords
WEAK      E. Shield, Throw Item, Martial Arts, Unyielding, Overwhelm
TRASH     E. Clothes, Defend, Maintenance, E. Ranged, Half of MP, E. Blade, M. Talk, E. Polearm, E. Magegear, E. Heavy Blade

ST. AJORA Move-HP Up
STRONG    Move-MP Up, Move +1
WEAK      Teleport, Fly, Ignore Height
TRASH     Jump +1, Jump +2, Float

Here is a tierlist I threw together. I don't want to provoke four pages of arguing about tiers, this is just my own opinion and a sloppy reference for what needs buffing/nerfing.

It's fine to have stronger and weaker abilities, some stuff I have in weak is more niche. The God tier and especially trash is what needs action.  Obviously movement is a special case, I would just lower Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up to 5-7% and move on.

The Equip X abilities, strictly speaking, don't need to occupy the support slot. You could make them freebies that don't need to be equipped, since we're directly editing equipment. Or you could put them in the less useful movement slot. I think these abilities could be balanced by adjusting the class growths and items themselves, but this is another option, although one of Arena's strengths is avoiding these kinds of arbitrary rules and metapatching.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on November 30, 2010, 04:13:18 pm
Moving Equip X to the movement slot... is actually a really cool idea. I like it. Does anyone else like it, or do they think it is a terrible idea?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on November 30, 2010, 04:47:05 pm
Equip X has no contest vs other supports... except Shield and Armor. If Equip Armor and Move-HP couldn't be shared, that'd be pretty spiffy... except there're the classes who can innately equip armor. So... I "support".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on November 30, 2010, 04:51:27 pm
Its an interesting idea, and I really like it actually.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on November 30, 2010, 05:51:03 pm
I also think Grand Cross could stay as is. The only way to use it is to absorb the element, anyway. Now you're just restricting it to absorb Holy.

Equip X to movement is a great idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on November 30, 2010, 06:36:09 pm
I also support moving Equip X to the Movement slot. Only one I'm kind of iffy about is Armor, but thinking about it, it moving to Movement that would mean having to choose between it and Move-HP Up. On the one hand, that stops a lot of "laziness" or at least that combination from appearing so frequently. On the other hand, that favors the classes with heavy armor even more, especially if Paladin doesn't get a HP nerf or something.

Hmm.....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on November 30, 2010, 06:45:12 pm
How to balance Equip Armor? Leave it Support? Change it to Equip Helmet? Raise the cost? Reduce Helmet/Armor HPs by 10? It does basically cost 850 JP now, since it's the only good Paladin ability, so it's not out of the question to leave it as is.

I think letting Paladins/Lancers/Samurai have Equip Armor + Move-HP Up is fine; previously they were the only ones who could have Equip Armor + any support which is vastly scarier. This might actually be the nerf that keeps my teams from being 50% Paladin by weight!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 01, 2010, 01:55:54 am
Damn. Changing Equip X to movement in the patcher doesn't work. Then again, I am using 457. Does anyone know a way to change it so that I can buy/equip it as a movement? I don't want to generate a new memcard everytime I want to make a small adjustment =/
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 01, 2010, 07:50:30 am
Well, it's a major kludge, but you could just give every class all equips innately.  Not sure if that's really what you're looking for though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 01, 2010, 08:50:17 am
That'd probably create more problems than it would solve, unfortunately.

Given that I am lazy, talentless bum, I'm also unsure how to solve the Support to Movement problem, though I really should have remembered it would come up.

*whistles innocently*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 01, 2010, 08:07:43 pm
Here is a new changelog
GENERAL
- Previous bugs fixed

JOBS
- Paladin loses 1 Jump
- Paladin C-EV now 0
- Paladin MP Multiplier now 20

SKILLS
- Maintainence is now 100 JP
- Holy Water now also cancels Oil
- Maiden's Kiss now also cancels Sleep, 150 JP
- Dia can now hit caster
- Grand Cross is now Holy Elemental
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton can now hit caster
- Katon, Raiton and Suiton now (100-Faith)*(100-Faith)*PA*25 damage
- Shinobi's Seal is now Sp+70% chance to hit, seperate and inflitcs Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act(around about 20% chance for each status in tests)
- New skill for Ninja: Houkouton

ITEMS
- Stone Gun loses 1 WP
- C Bag loses 1 MA
- FS Bag loses 1 PA
- All spears up 2 WP
- All bows up 1 WP
- Ice Bow now casts Ice 3
- Lightning Bow now casts Bolt 3
- Rainbow Staff is now all Elements and 11 WP. Loses whatever it had before.
- All non-status crossbows up 2 WP
- All status crossbows up 1 WP, gains 100% status
- Cloths status changed to permanent
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 02, 2010, 09:00:38 am
update tables? I want to see what this new ninja skill "Houkouton" is about
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 02, 2010, 03:35:59 pm
(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj174/FF255Master/Ninjabeta.png)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on December 02, 2010, 04:01:16 pm
Show us a vid how it works.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 02, 2010, 04:38:35 pm
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 06, 2010, 06:44:02 pm
About reactions: If possible I suggest some based on Faith, some flat chance. Phys units can drop faith to 40 and not lose anything, but magic units drop their fury to survive longer, and also lose out on their reaction (unless it's Abandon). If it's possible to make caster reactions (like Counter Magic, Absorb Used MP...) Faith based, it'd be a good boost to casters... And generic boost or generic defense reactions (like Speed Save, Damage Split, Auto-Potion...) could be flat chance.

If that's too crazy, flat chance for all would be a nice change, assuming you can make the chance different for each reaction. Speed Save could be down around 35%... Auto-Potion 100%... Wha'cha think?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 06, 2010, 06:50:29 pm
Either suggestion would take up a lot of time and ASM space. Personally, I think that dropping Faith too low for physical units is more of a hindrance. No access to good revival and Haste does hurt quite a bit. Yell is a good alternative, but is single target. Right now, I think mages could run the show with Flare/Level 4 magic casters. Without the hindrance of 50% damage bonus while charging, they can probably live without Short Charge. But we shall see.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 06, 2010, 09:23:33 pm
My Black Magic team is quite potent... I haven't tested summons since the buff awhile back... and I should try out Oracle more, and Scholar is used a ton for stats, so its magic will be tested too, naturally.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 06, 2010, 11:16:54 pm
I guess that means I should try out a magic team sooner than later.

Speaking of magic, though, I have to ask why Float goes its JP increased? Is it because of Iron Boots? I honestly thought it was mediocre even with those given how many Monks forgo Earth Slash, Summoners forgo Titan and Samurai are stupid when it comes to Kikuichimoji.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 06, 2010, 11:22:58 pm
I see it as a utility for a load of things. Immune to earth, water doesn't affect you, +1 height (high ground > lower ground =p), no falling damage and walk over lava, all rolled into one movement ability. Pretty strong if you ask me.

By the way... I was thinking, instead of Iron Boots, how about a Movement ability to make move 0? I'm fairly sure it can be done, just not sure how the AI will act with it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 06, 2010, 11:36:30 pm
Higher ground isn't always a better, but given that most people weren't used Spears since they kind of sucked, that didn't really come into play. Same with lava and falling damage. I'll grant you the other things, but, if that's the case, then why is Fly still the same JP? It's not a huge deal with either way, I was merely wondering why.

As for Iron Boots vs. Move 0, it's something to consider. However, I'd rather see how non-recurring Lore acts with Iron Boots first, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 08, 2010, 12:30:57 pm
Throw Stone is pretty strong. I laughed hard at the absurd Monk team but figured it was just Martial Arts + Battle Song, but I tossed it on my Grand Cross knights as an afterthought and they spend most of their time two-shotting people with Concentrated rocks. Concentrate + ranged physical is brutal here just like S4 Throw.

Even without Holy-elemental, weapon-elemental Grand Cross is very powerful on an absorb team, instant splash healing/damage. Houkouton and Jutsus are strong but not broken, I think.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 08, 2010, 04:28:45 pm
19 MP Paladin?... I mean, it could work, but the Paladin skillset is now barely usable by Paladins. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of nerfing Paladin... but isn't this shoving them in the Salty Rage corner?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 08, 2010, 04:30:37 pm
Robes, Cross Helm. They basically have the same restrictions as mages who cast higher level spells.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 08, 2010, 04:53:57 pm
That's if you consider Nurse, Dia, etc. akin to high level spells. Transfusion is good enough to warrant a higher mana cost... in fact, wasn't it 20? I'm still in the mentality of highest HP possible with equips (unless you got a team gimmick like elemental absorb, or... I still need to make an all immune to DA Paralyze team)... but might as well test out the Cross Helmet, since I don't think anyone else has used it.

EDIT: Oh, little minor thing... notice Scholars don't care to use Hi-Ethers on themselves. Back when the spells were recurring they did, but now for some reason the AI just doesn't have incentive.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 08, 2010, 10:53:20 pm
What do you guys think of a Support that increases range for the ranged weapons? In other words, Longbows, Crossbows, Books and Guns would gain 1 extra range with this support on. If that consists of too many weapons, then we can change it to whatever we want. I stole this idea from Arch's forum, and thought it would be interesting to do. I can make it in a bit if people like it, but if it won't be used, then why bother?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on December 09, 2010, 12:13:50 am
I like it. Can already start stitching a team together with it.

Include Harps, too? Both Books and Harps are 3 range, so if Books get the range increase, it would make sense for Harps to get it too.

EDIT: Cheer Song and Slow Dance up to 25%? At 20% hit rate, there's a 41% chance that it will do nothing. At 25%, there's only a 31% chance that it will do nothing. Yes, minor fluctuations in speed can make a difference, but if the speed isn't even altered in the first place... =/
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 09, 2010, 08:58:15 am
Quote from: "FFMaster"What do you guys think of a Support that increases range for the ranged weapons? In other words, Longbows, Crossbows, Books and Guns would gain 1 extra range with this support on.

Sounds good. 2 range might be better, unless it's really cheap - it has to compete with Concentrate and Attack UP.

Quote from: "CT5Holy"Cheer Song and Slow Dance up to 25%?

Sure. Cheer Song at 30% would be reasonable, I think, it deserves a higher chance to hit than Slow Dance.

I like Paladin MP being terrible, but I want MP to be a bigger constraint in general... I can see why you don't want Paladins to have to equip special equipment to use their skillset, Squidgy. Still, my Paladins are running around Grand Crossing everything with 19 MP and a piddly 2 MP per turn from Move-MP UP. I don't think any Paladin will ever use a robe, though, the HP loss is just too much.

Paladins having 2 Jump really bones them on some maps due to start position (e.g. stuck on the roof in Zaland Fort City). Over the space of all maps this might be balanced, but I don't think people would find it very fun to lose that way in a tourney setting.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 09, 2010, 03:21:11 pm
I haven't noticed the 2 jump drive me insane yet, but I haven't played too many different maps, and Franz has 6 range...
Grand Cross does so much awesome with Elemental Absorb and looks so pretty, yet costs only 6 mp, when everything else is 10. I'm just thinking the costs are off based on the effect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 10, 2010, 06:11:32 am
Yeah, moving them to 2 jump was a bad idea. They will go back to 3 jump. And Paladins will have minimum 25 MP, for 2 casts.

Grand Cross... I think needs to go up in MP. I'm thinking 12 MP right now, and maybe a small CT.

Right now, I feel like Thief and Archer skillsets need a good overhaul. Pretty much untouched except for their stats/equips. Other than that, people rarely use Charge/Steal as a secondary skillset. Anyone have any suggestions? I seriously don't know what to do.

Ninja's Nightslayer might be changed. Same concept, but much stronger.
Reaper's Scythe - Deals 100% damage to a unit inflicted with Death Sentence.

I'll probably move Cheer Song/Slow Dance to 25% and see how it goes first.

And for the range hack, I can make it any range, and yes, it would also affect harps. It should affect any ranged weapon.

And finally, I really need ideas for Throw Stone.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 10, 2010, 08:08:22 am
So, I was going through the stats rather closely for once and I noticed that Geomancers are basically inferior Squires stat-wise now. The same for Mediators and Chemists. I suppose I can understand why given the move-set difference for the former, but the latter is just...weird given that Chemists get a lot more use than Mediators have ever gotten and they don't even use MA (or Faith).

Besides that, all I have to say is that links to the Item and Zodiac Chart (and probably even team making thread) should be in the first post. It might also be good to put the note that "All Geomancy is 600 JP" here for newer people, though that one seems less necessary.

Quote from: "FFMaster"Yeah, moving them to 2 jump was a bad idea. They will go back to 3 jump. And Paladins will have minimum 25 MP, for 2 casts.

Yeah, going back to 3 Jump is fine, but they still seem like they could stand to lose a bit of HP, especially if Grand Cross (and even Dia) heals them now.

QuoteGrand Cross... I think needs to go up in MP. I'm thinking 12 MP right now, and maybe a small CT.

It needs it's damage lowered (with respect to Strengthen: Holy at least) given that Knights have no reason to use it with anything but Excalibur, which is already a damn good Knight Sword. (Arguably the best one.)

QuoteRight now, I feel like Thief and Archer skillsets need a good overhaul. Pretty much untouched except for their stats/equips. Other than that, people rarely use Charge/Steal as a secondary skillset. Anyone have any suggestions? I seriously don't know what to do.

Thief is fine, though you never did answer my question about whether you had (or could) make Steal not trigger (physical) counters. Not really you're fault that no one uses it; I was going to give Vega Steal Weapon, but between the JP cost and not being sure about the counter thing, I decided against it.

Archer...I'm not sure. I'll try to think of something, but I know that I had trouble thinking of techniques for them. Hmm...maybe I'll check my notes for my patches....

QuoteNinja's Nightslayer might be changed. Same concept, but much stronger.
Reaper's Scythe - Deals 100% damage to a unit inflicted with Death Sentence.

That seems fine, though would the computer even bother using it on Death Sentenced people if it avoid them?

QuoteI'll probably move Cheer Song/Slow Dance to 25% and see how it goes first.

Also fine.

QuoteAnd for the range hack, I can make it any range, and yes, it would also affect harps. It should affect any ranged weapon.

Won't the "gaps" for Harps and Books get really wonky the more range you give them, though?

QuoteAnd finally, I really need ideas for Throw Stone.

Also not sure on this. I will try to think of something, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 10, 2010, 10:24:56 am
Geomancers are overshadowed by Squires and Samurai, who have excellent skillsets and stats (Geomancer has terrific R/S/M but you can't balance so much on that). Could use a few points to PA/MA. Mediators and Chemists are both weak - Mediator has 9 SP but is still outclassed by Archer or Time Mage, depending on application. Chemist at least has a good skillset and innate.

Given that the Grand Cross formula doesn't go lower than PA*WP, higher MP cost and short CT sounds good (didn't realize it only cost 6, that's why I had no problems!).

Dunno what flexibility you have but maybe PA*(1...9) or so for Throw Stone? Also, I am not up on what formulas can take what evasion, but this is what I was thinking for Charge. Honestly I like the direction you took, it just needs to be made more usable.

CHARGE       RNG  AoE  VERT  CT  MP  ELE  FORMULA                   EV?  SPECIAL  STATUS           COUNTER
Leg Aim      Wpn  0    Wpn   0   0   ---  Hit_(SP+55)%              ---           Add: Don't Move  C, CF
Arm Aim      Wpn  0    Wpn   0   0   ---  Hit_(SP+45)%              ---           Add: Don't Act   C, CF
Heart Aim    Wpn  0    Wpn   3   0   ---  Dmg_(Weapon)              ---                            C, CF
Execute      Wpn  0    Wpn   4   0   ---  Dmg_(TgtMaxHP - TgtCurHP) P                              C, CF
Greased Bolt Wpn  0    Wpn   0   6   ---  Hit_(SP+60)%              ---           Add: Oil, Slow   C, CF
Cover Fire   4    1    3     0   12  ---  Dmg_((1...3)*(PA*3+60))   P                              C, CF
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 10, 2010, 03:28:32 pm
Quote from: "The Damned"Thief is fine, though you never did answer my question about whether you had (or could) make Steal not trigger (physical) counters. Not really you're fault that no one uses it; I was going to give Vega Steal Weapon, but between the JP cost and not being sure about the counter thing, I decided against it.
Steal will always trigger physical counters. I can't really stop that.

QuoteThat seems fine, though would the computer even bother using it on Death Sentenced people if it avoid them?
True, guess some testing will help.

QuoteWon't the "gaps" for Harps and Books get really wonky the more range you give them, though?
No. I tested out the hack, Harps and Books are pretty much 3 range crossbows, increasing the range would be like making them actual crossbow range.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on December 10, 2010, 08:52:14 pm
Damned: I think Grand Cross is actually weapon element still.

Pokeytax: I don't like Heart Aim, assuming that it's meant to be an unevadable attack. I say we keep current Execute, and have your Execute renamed to something like Wound Aim (or something better, of course). That way you get instant kill on a critical unit, or a kill on someone with <= 50% max HP at the cost of 4 CT (maybe 5 CT? seems quite strong).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 10, 2010, 09:13:19 pm
Do Scholars have innate Throw Item? Wouldn't let me set it in-game... minor thing. I'll edit more in this post with skill suggestions... Thief lovin' and such.
EDIT: OMG I just saw my Scholar use a Hi-Ether on herself! So it's possible... phew.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 10, 2010, 09:21:39 pm
Oh, that would be a problem in the SCUS. It's because I swapped Chemist and old Calculator around, since there was code to slow down Calculator spells, which is why the Sage spells in 1.3 take so long. I can't exactly fix it right now, maybe in a while. Or... we can have Lore being super slow...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 10, 2010, 11:15:54 pm
Quote from: "CT5Holy"That way you get instant kill on a critical unit, or a kill on someone with <= 50% max HP at the cost of 4 CT (maybe 5 CT? seems quite strong).

Yeah, the Climhazzard formula is really strong, it needs a longer charge time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on December 10, 2010, 11:43:44 pm
It's a minor thing; I consider keeping Lore fixed of more importance.

Archer: I think the DA/DM makes it unique... Cover Fire has a place for secondary use, but the MP cost lessens that a little. If you want different stuff, I'm thinking steal some of Cloud's abilities pretty much directly, but make their damage PA-based. A Braver with range 5, similar to old Charge, but can be Short Charged... Climhazzard is the suggested execute change by pokeytax, which I agree with, but maybe 6-7 CT instead of 4.

Thief: Steal Heart was all I ever Thieved with, and still all I care for. In the 1.3 tourney Cherry has Steal Weapon since it's a stall team... but I really dislike Steal/Break Equip vs Maintenance. I'd love temporary equip removal, if possible, but really doubt it's so (via a status?) Also... Innate Two Swords... or Innate Awareness? I'm thinking physical Oracle mentality, but only in the uncommon oracle/mediator aspects.

"Heretic" Self: Innocent. High mp. 300 jp.
"Setup" Self: Transparent + Quick, if the AI doesn't go mad using it... Low mp. 80 jp.
"Break Status" Wep range, Phys%: Remove Reraise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell, Float. (Steal Status possible?) 200 jp.
"Noxious Gas": Range 0, Area 1 vert 1, Add: Confuse Sp+50 (Melee Mimic Daravon for Confuse) No mp. 300 jp.
"Distract" AoE 2, vert 3, (Draw Out area/range) CT: 00, Sp +20 chance. (Oh, Persuade could use a buff since Mimic Daravon or Blackmail trump it easily.) 200 jp.
Ruins back to Breaks, based on weapon, no mp cost, except Speed Ruin, unless that can be wep% Add: Slow?

Throw Stone... don't like the cancel: Charge version. What about just ranged single-target Houkouton (PA*8)? I always liked the knockback... is that able to come back?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on December 17, 2010, 09:46:39 pm
Proposed Squire Skill

Ultima Shot: Weapon Ranged heavy magic attack, big MP cost. Pretty much from FFTA. Or we can put it on Archers
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 18, 2010, 03:45:36 pm
I feel like mimes might be better served by having Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts as a support, they would benefit more overall, even with the loss of power for their attack command. They also still feel a little too easy to kill for a unit that is entirely reliant on others to heal itself, and they still have 1 support slot left, so why not put Unyielding in there?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: pokeytax on December 19, 2010, 06:48:58 pm
Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"I feel like mimes might be better served by having Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts as a support, they would benefit more overall, even with the loss of power for their attack command. They also still feel a little too easy to kill for a unit that is entirely reliant on others to heal itself, and they still have 1 support slot left, so why not put Unyielding in there?

I think Overwhelm is a good idea, male Mimes are better than female Mimes because they have a solid physical attack. While I like the fragility of Mimes balancing their power, losing Concentrate is going to be rough, so maybe Unyielding would be okay too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on December 19, 2010, 06:58:50 pm
actually, unless something has changed, Concentrate would become available ONLY as a mime innate ability, rather then being removed entierly
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 22, 2010, 02:12:06 am
Yeah, Concentrate is still innate on Mimes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on December 30, 2010, 04:20:12 pm
So, while changing my teams over to 129 versions already, I noticed that Concentrate still shows up on Archer's chart despite being verboten as anything other than Mime's innate now.

Less contrarily, I noticed some weird things now that Reflect bars up, namely that Holy and Flare are reflectable and that "Reflect", the Time Mage Spell (which no longer causes Reflect and could probably stand to have a better name), isn't subject to M-EV despite being an attack. These aren't big things, but they seem like they might need addressing.

Besides that, I "look forward" to Thief (and maybe Archer) ending up as an obnoxious gits now, though I will gladly like to be proven wrong, even if I would like for Steal [Equipment] to reappear. Thank you for at least lowering Maintenance's cost, though; however, "techniques" is misspelled as "technipes" still, but that's ultimately still an inconsequential typo.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 16, 2011, 10:25:50 pm
Quote from: FFMaster on January 16, 2011, 08:44:30 pm
Lich, I agree is strong. It has been that way since 1.3 tournaments, it's just that people have neglected it for other better things. With Steal Heart nerfed and Throw non-existant, Lich can finally show off what it does. Demi and Demi 2 have always been terrible imo, and needs a good boost. Odin will probably always be a gimmick I think.


Right now, Lich trades larger AoE for ~10% success rate. Boost Demi, Demi 2 hit% and lower JP costs as well?

I think Monk's Revive could also see a decrease in JP cost.

Someone mentioned it in the Tournament discussion topic, but Tornado and Quake could also use a buff. I'd go with damage.

Does Execute use Faith because that's the only convenient formula for it? Probably won't matter too much if it gets buffed since no one's using it, anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 16, 2011, 10:49:32 pm
The biggest problem with Demi 2 is that it is simply too costly in terms of both mp and jp expenditure compared to Lich

Lich deals 50% hp damage with an area of 2 for 45mp at CT 7 and costs 250jp

Demi 2 deals 50% hp damage with an area of 1 for 40 mp at CT 6 and costs 450 jp

by comparison

Demi deals 25% hp damage with an area of 1 for 20 mp at CT 2 and costs 200 jp
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on January 16, 2011, 11:12:10 pm
Yeah, that's really the killer when it comes to Demi, Demi 2 and even Death versus Lich: compared to Lich, their success rates are horrible for the JP, MP and range that they take and the limited targets they can affect. That Lich avoids Allies as well is merely the addition of insult to injury.

Quote from: CT5Holy on January 16, 2011, 10:25:50 pmI think Monk's Revive could also see a decrease in JP cost.


I'd disagree unless it's just a decrease to a more even JP of 400. IMO, Monks shouldn't even be able TO revive, but they can not only do that, barring the unlikelihood of isolate terrain uneven-ness, also heal both HP and MP better than Priests often can instantly.

If anything happens with regards to Monks, I'd say that Chakra and Stigma Magic--which is basically instant, multi-target Esuna for free repeatably for a third of the JP--need to become single-target.

QuoteSomeone mentioned it in the Tournament discussion topic, but Tornado and Quake could also use a buff. I'd go with damage.


That was me.

Personally, while upping damage would be nice, I'd be completely fine if their CT was lowered a bit as well, perhaps lowered significantly even if it meant the damage being lowered. Damage doesn't much help their case if they can be dodged.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on January 16, 2011, 11:16:46 pm
For the faith problem, I propose moving the limits from 40-70 to 60-90. That's the same as adding a constant to faith :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on January 17, 2011, 02:00:45 am
Not exactly PX. Your idea screws over people will plan to use Preach =p

EDIT:

I've been thinking about this a bit now.

For the Demi 1/2 and Lich problem:
Demi - Deals 30% damage, high accuracy
Demi 2 - Deals 60% damage, decent accuracy
Lich - Deals 45% damage(removes easy 2HKO), decent accuracy

JP costs for the spells need to be tweaked as well, I'm thinking of moving Demi to 150 and Demi 2 to 250.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 20, 2011, 03:06:44 pm
I just noticed a huge problem with Hawk's Eye, currently, it has a CT of 6, but whenever a unit moves after beginning to charge it, the charge cancels, resulting in the waste of a turn. So we either need to make Hawk's Eye instant cast or flag it to follow target.

:EDIT: scrapped what I said about a skillset swap, as it was pointed out to me that the problem wasn't with the archer's skillset but the flags set for Hawk's Eye, apparently this problem happens with any charge skill that doesn't also have follow target flagged.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 22, 2011, 04:24:20 am
Quote from: Skip Sandwich on January 20, 2011, 03:06:44 pm
I just noticed a huge problem with Hawk's Eye, currently, it has a CT of 6, but whenever a unit moves after beginning to charge it, the charge cancels, resulting in the waste of a turn. So we either need to make Hawk's Eye instant cast or flag it to follow target.

:EDIT: scrapped what I said about a skillset swap, as it was pointed out to me that the problem wasn't with the archer's skillset but the flags set for Hawk's Eye, apparently this problem happens with any charge skill that doesn't also have follow target flagged.


Yep.

I remember this one.  I pointed it out.

My incredibly vague fix for this was to flag Weapon Strike and Normal Attack? and unflag Targeting.  I was mucking about trying to turn Item into a Support Ability when I noticed a different skill I made had this problem, so I mucked around with it for about an hour while failing horribly at using the Generic Skillset Hack to make my original idea work and the AI didn't do its "Charge and Move" thing again even when I offered it ample opportunity to nail me in the back for huge damage + 100% status.  I later removed CT from the skill and modified it some for reasons unrelated to this glitch so I haven't tested more but it's worth trying if it's a skill you don't want to scrap and can't fudge about some to make Instant Cast.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Otabo on January 22, 2011, 10:47:24 am
Quote from: FFMaster on January 17, 2011, 02:00:45 am
Not exactly PX. Your idea screws over people will plan to use Preach =p

EDIT:

I've been thinking about this a bit now.

For the Demi 1/2 and Lich problem:
Demi - Deals 30% damage, high accuracy
Demi 2 - Deals 60% damage, decent accuracy
Lich - Deals 45% damage(removes easy 2HKO), decent accuracy

JP costs for the spells need to be tweaked as well, I'm thinking of moving Demi to 150 and Demi 2 to 250.


What about this?

Demi - 33% damage, 3 CT, good accuracy, 200 JP
Demi 2 - 66% (or 67%) damage, 6 CT, fair to bad accuracy, 400 JP
Lich - 40% damage, 5 CT, fair accuracy. Maybe 35-40 ish MP? At least more than Demi, but less than Demi 2.

Demi & Demi 2 would give another reason to use Time Magic other than the usual. 33% on Demi should be a decent buff to it; it'd put it up there with Life Drain at least, and Life Drain is a pretty good skill in itself. Now that I think about it, 66% on Demi 2 might be too strong, but perhaps the 6 CT (or maybe even 7 CT like Death) + accuracy nerf + JP Cost could balance that out. To be honest, I was thinking about 1.3's Gravi 2 at the moment. Lich as an even 40% would be still be pretty good.

On another note, can we please, please, get rid of song/dance mimicking? Way too strong. Battle Song is mainly the culprit here and is especially imba when mimed because of mimes' innate Martial Arts AND Concentrate. Wiznaibus is kind of bad too, especially for squishies, and when you've got both of them together, it gets crazy. Or at least make only Battle Song either not able to be mimicked or reduce it to Cheer Song's hit%. On its own, it's not that big of a deal, but when there's one or two mimes out, that is when it gets ridiculous. The other songs aren't as bad when mimicked (though, Magic Song could be bad, but it's not nearly as overused as Battle Song is).

Quote from: Skip SandwichI feel like mimes might be better served by having Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts as a support, they would benefit more overall, even with the loss of power for their attack command.


I agree with that. Mimes can one-shot anything given a few points of PA from Battle Song. I blame Martial Arts. They need to lose that, too. Overwhelm sounds good on them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on January 22, 2011, 12:37:57 pm
Hello,

i think there is a good reason why Demi is so much weaker than Lich.
Because time mage has the role of a supporter/disabler. If u want an strong atackspell u need to equip a second ability like black magic/summon magic. If Demi would become as strong that would boost time magic very much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 22, 2011, 12:56:52 pm
Demi - 33%, 2 CT, 15-20 MP, 200 JP, very high accuracy (higher than it is now - it's already 100% hit against 70 Faith targets, so it would only increase hit rate against 40 Faith units)
Demi 2 - 66%, 6 CT, 35 MP, 300 JP, current Lich accuracy (or maybe a bit higher)
Lich - 45%, 6 CT, 35-40 MP, 300 JP, same accuracy (or maybe a bit higher)

Basically, buff to Demi, while trade off between Demi 2 and Lich is damage for AoE.

I think Overwhelm instead of Martial Arts is a good idea. Should lower the damage enough that we don't need to tweak Song/Dance hit% or make them unmimicable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on January 22, 2011, 07:44:07 pm
@Percentage-Based attacks: Eh, I don't know if Demi should be that quick or Demi 2 should be that much, but I think that I like CT5Holy's changes for the most part. These would all still be Dark-based, right?

@Strange Aeons: Given what you said to me last time about Odin being a gimmick, FFMaster, and Barren's exhibition showing what an idiot the computer is about Death even when giving the ability to apply 100% Faith to a target, it seems pretty clear that Death needs to die. It's useless and making it more likely to hit would just make it stupid. 

Similarly, is there a reason that Flare and Holy are affected by Reflect? It seems a tad...unfair given how much better than Black Magic and White Magic Summon Magic already is.

@Martial Arts: I actually don't really have a problem with Martial Arts on Mimes since they otherwise have no options and range, especially with the player not controlling them. Taking away from Martial Arts from Mimes while letting stupid-ass Monks keep it similarly seems kind of backwards, even if, yes, I realize that Monks wouldn't be able to equip Martial Arts if they didn't have it innately. (Boo-fucking-hoo.)

Speaking of Monks, I was being serious when I asked if we could nerf Chakra and Stigma Magic to single-target abilities. It's stupid that strongest class in vanilla is still the strongest class (or tied for the strongest class what with Paladin) in Arena even after the changes, primarily because it's seem the least changes and has only really gotten buffs. (Being able to equip Ribbons and having more HP now.) I mean, why the hell can something that deals so much damage be so good at healing, status removal AND revival? Even Summon Magic has the decency to only be good at two of those.

Quote from: Skip Sandwich on January 20, 2011, 03:06:44 pm
I just noticed a huge problem with Hawk's Eye, currently, it has a CT of 6, but whenever a unit moves after beginning to charge it, the charge cancels, resulting in the waste of a turn. So we either need to make Hawk's Eye instant cast or flag it to follow target.

:EDIT: scrapped what I said about a skillset swap, as it was pointed out to me that the problem wasn't with the archer's skillset but the flags set for Hawk's Eye, apparently this problem happens with any charge skill that doesn't also have follow target flagged.


Yep. There's a reason that Charge in-game prevents you from moving after you've activated it: Apparently the AI is too stupid to not move otherwise.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on January 22, 2011, 04:24:20 am
My incredibly vague fix for this was to flag Weapon Strike and Normal Attack? and unflag Targeting.


I like the sound of incredibly vague fixes.

Quote from: Avalanche on January 22, 2011, 12:37:57 pmi think there is a good reason why Demi is so much weaker than Lich.
Because time mage has the role of a supporter/disabler. If u want an strong atackspell u need to equip a second ability like black magic/summon magic. If Demi would become as strong that would boost time magic very much.


No one's arguing that Demi 1 should be stronger than Lich, just there's no reason to use any other percentage attack OTHER than Lich at present since Lich is both unavoidable and a 2HKO.

An ability that has no reason to be used should just be eliminated.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 24, 2011, 09:34:02 pm
Auto Potion could have a lower JP cost of about 350, I'd say.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 25, 2011, 04:09:45 pm
There has been a lot of dissatisfaction floating around lately for how strong Monks in general are and Martial Arts in specific is. So I ask, just why can't we just remove Martial Arts entirely? It'd be really easy to just give monks Two Swords innate, or Poles or Rods or something, or to just make the unarmed "weapon" itself stronger, while removing the ridiculous PA scaling that Martial Arts causes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 25, 2011, 06:12:48 pm
Innate Overwhelm, then? Overwhelm + Attack UP would give monks (max PA setup) 26-28 effective PA (depending on whether or not FS Bag is equipped), as opposed to 33-36 effective PA from Martial Arts + Attack UP. Damage would be reasonably high, as opposed to ridiculously high.
I suggest innate Overwhelm instead of innate Attack UP because the AUP boost is larger -> less tradeoff in damage versus having a more defensive support for survivability. Overwhelm + Two Swords also probably won't be as... overwhelming as AUP + Two Swords/Martial Arts + Two Swords (then again, it's still probably a ton of damage).
Then again, since Overwhelm boost isn't as big, that might force Monks into max damage setups (which isn't a big deal for me, since that's what I always do, but it might be annoying for others, or if something pops up that would make me not use them for pure damage).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: PX_Timefordeath on January 25, 2011, 07:34:13 pm
Change Chakra and Stigma Magic to linear targeting, so they can only affect the monk and the person in front of him. Would that satisfy you Damned over the brokenness of Monks? Also, I like that Overwhelm idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on January 25, 2011, 08:57:01 pm
That would be better and worthy of testing despite it still seems stronger than what I want.

However, this shouldn't be about what just I want? As (surprisingly) vocal and bossy as I am towards you guys at times (sorry about that; you'd think I was helping you moderator), I WOULD like to hear other people's opinions on this Monk matter. I say this especially because I admittedly have a bias against them.

Sight Unseeing EDIT: Wow, I completely overlooked Skip Sandwich's and CT5Holy's posts; I'd ask what was wrong with me, but we don't have all day. Anyway, I somewhat agree with the Overwhelm thing, though that would mean that Monks (and Mimes) would probably need even more HP. Attack UP is useless anyway since you can just use PA.

But, yeah, Martial Arts can die forever as far as I care.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 27, 2011, 02:29:28 pm
Rather then giving monks more HP, we could give the unarmed "weapon" a W-ev rating of 10 or so (not too high since even without Two Swords most monks will technically still have two unarmed "weapons" "equipped".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on January 27, 2011, 02:32:50 pm
^^ I just like the idea because of two hands combination XD.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 27, 2011, 05:28:48 pm
Also, i've been thinking, maybe the solution for the Demi/Lich disparity is to turn Lich into something more like Hades/Doomtrain, a mass negative status inflictor, like a ranged Doku no Kyoukai. Of course, this would marginalize oracle spells even more, but those probably need to be overhauled anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on January 27, 2011, 07:14:07 pm
Instead of innate Overwhelm, I can easily make Martial Arts 25% instead. What do people think of that? And I think I might have an idea to get rid of 2 swords fist. As for unarmed gaining W-EV, I've never tampered with it, but assuming it changes in SCUS, there won't be room to edit that. I can add more C-EV to Monk instead as an alternative.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on January 27, 2011, 07:20:11 pm
you can give the unarmed "weapon" WP and W-ev in FFTPatcher, it's the blank spot right at the top of the weapon list
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on February 04, 2011, 01:12:15 pm
As another minor change, the ninja skillset "ninjitsu" should be written "ninjutsu."
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on February 04, 2011, 06:21:22 pm
A point has been raised that perhaps song mimicking is too powerful, at least in regards to Battle Song, ESPECIALLY with Martial Arts still running around. So, do we nerf it's % hit rate as we did Cheer Song? Or do we give it some other unique function, such as a field-wide Berserk?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on February 04, 2011, 06:30:41 pm
I still say the best solution would be to use Xif's stat cap ASM. Much more easily balanced that way, IMO.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Skip Sandwich on February 04, 2011, 07:09:34 pm
I was not even aware that we had something like that, how does it work? Does it just cap raw stats (as displayed in the status screen) or does it cap adjusted stats as well?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: LightningHax on February 04, 2011, 07:54:03 pm
QuoteStat gain/break cap + Maintenance prevents stat break
WW/XX = Lower Limit which the stat can be reduced.
YY/ZZ = Upper Limit which the stat can be raised.
For example, a lower limit of 1/3 and a upper limit of 1/4 for someone with 18PA, would be:
lower cap: 18PA - (18PA * 1/3) = 12PA
upper cap: 18PA + (18PA * 1/4) = 22PA
This hack takes full consideration of equipment.


It only caps adjusted stats. Also, Maintenance preventing stat breaks could make it worth the JP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on March 19, 2011, 02:40:29 pm
What are people's thoughts on increasing the range of most magic by 1? (Katon, Suiton, Raiton are obviously getting their range reduced) Offensive magic isn't too great - 40 Fa makes damage garbage, and at current ranges, it's easy for mages to be midcharged (no midcharge damage bonus is nice, but casters still die/get hurt -> sandbag mode etc). Offensive magic is essentially support - it's anti-sandbag/soften up enemies. It isn't too great at softening up units anyway though cause of 40 Faith. Buffed range would make magic even more of a support than a main source of damage, but mages could possibly squeeze in one more spell before dying.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on July 26, 2011, 09:08:44 pm
Rant on class stats:

Chemist: Lots of MA/MP on a job set which doesn't use it, but not more MA than mage jobs. Should probably be 10 speed, to be an alternative to the Thief Itembots, but would require hits to PA/MA.
Mediator: Just really low all around, maybe good for a speedy Geomancy unit? But Geomancy scales multiplicatively, so slight drops in stats have a large impact. Mediator range isn't too amazing, so the health could use a boost, along with every other stat. PA only helps books/daggers, so it can be ignored as a perk if it were to get boosted.

Archer: Little low on MP considering Cover Fire costs 12 (was this 'cause of Conc? Haven't seen this used in ages.) and Hawk's Eye of 8, which I've never seen.
Wizard/Summoner: All the mage stats are so similar because they want the same thing, flat MA, but Oracle/Priest/Sage/Bard get more health, and the MP loss is hard to judge the importance of. Maybe these two could get even more MP base? Also Summoner have Books available, but terrible PA.
Samurai: Really low HP for a melee unit, but armor makes up for it... maybe more HP would help though. Dunno why MP is so high when Draw Out costs nothing.
Ninja: Really low stats, but nice CEv and innate Two Swords... which I find to be overpriced. Maybe boost stats a bit, ditch the innate, and lower the price a lot? MP's too low considering the costs on Ninjitsu skills.

Squire: Too good at everything. High HP, MP, PA, MA, Move, equips nearly everything. MP doesn't need to be so high, especially with robes available. All-around better than Geomancers, the best stat job in vanilla. Probably should knock everything down a little bit.
Paladin: High HP/PA, AND Armor, Shield, Katana/Sword for optimal stat buffing. The only reason I'm not using two Nikos in Save Me is because I don't want to... it'd be the best choice though.
Monk: Highest HP/PA with innate Martial Arts... 9 speed also? All at the cost of a hat, which'll be circumvented by Equip Armor, or a Ribbon/Cachusha.
Thief: Best speed/CEv, good HP. Best Move/Jump. No MP, but plenty of skillsets don't use MP.
Sage: Best mage stats with average PA.

Nerf suggestions for the best? Well, make the tradeoffs more noticeable. Thief/Paladin having terrible MP is a good one, but it's not enough given the great no-mana skillsets (that and Cross Helmets). Thief should only have more speed or CEv or health or mobility... maybe even two of those... compared to Ninjas, Squires ability to equip near everything means they can suffer a bit all around, and be worse than Geomancers overall. Monk and Paladin have the best in the most important areas, HP and PA, for clothed and armored. Make one the best for HP, one the best for PA, and probably ditch the Monk 9 speed. Sage doesn't need high HP due to absorb equips with the all-target magic, and high PA is a nice flavor touch for book use, but being tied for highest MA doesn't really fit with the nice HP and minute PA perk.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Malroth on July 26, 2011, 09:22:13 pm
Drop monks and paladins to 7 speed  and give Samurai either more HP or innate 2 hands
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on July 27, 2011, 02:50:16 pm
Instead of ((PA+4)/2)*MA, make it (PA/2)*MA instead. Max (or at least close to max) damage Geomancy would be at 120, and the Geomancy user would be fairly squishy, too (~275 HP). Squidgy's Squires as they are would do 100 instead of 140. Damage should be more manageable. Also keep in mind that these numbers are for units fully (or almost fully) optimized for Elemental.
Making Elemental Faith-based would cripple its damage output (well, I suppose a different formula would be used, but I'm still against it) considering how many 40 Faith units there are.

Agree with Innate Two Hands for Samurai (I think I mentioned this at some point) and Two Hands, Two Swords being overpriced (I'd say -150-200 JP). Disagree with 7 speed units. Much too slow. Especially with Haste nerf (7 Speed Hasted = effectively 9 speed).
Also not a fan of Paladins being able to equip Katanas. Not much reason to go with Samurais for melee damage IMO.
Don't see why 10 Speed Chemists would need a hit to PA/MA when Thieves have decent PA. I think 9 or 10 Speed Chemists would be fine.
+1 PA/MA to Geomancers? This would make them the ideal Geomancy user as they would equal current Squire Geomancy damage but also have a secondary. Squire still has many other uses.
Talk Skill range +1 and/or different formula? Current formula demands high MA mage for decent reliability, and locks out low MA units from using it effectively.
Hawk's Eye CT down to 4? It certainly isn't impressive, not to mention Repeating Fist does the unevadable attack thing a lot better.
And that brings me to Abandon - I think it'd be ok to have Abandon double evasion again. Shield and Mantle evasion percentages are low enough that it probably won't be a big deal (well, max P-Ev setup gives ~80% evasion from front and sides, ~50% evasion from behind (and yes, I included everyone's innate Weapon Guard)). Awareness is still great for high C-Ev classes/those who want good evasion for attacks from behind, and there's still a good amount of unevadable attacks. And RNG hate, for what it's worth. XD
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on July 27, 2011, 07:44:05 pm
Just a small correction. Haste is 25% speed bonus, 7/4 = 1 rounded down. So Effective Speed with Haste will be 8... That said, I am not completely against making 7 speed units.

I've already started considering nerfing Elemental a little. I would rather change it to ((PA+1)/2)*MA or ((PA+2)/2)*MA though. Elemental is still strong though, requiring no charging, good range, AoE and statii. As for the class itself, I'm not sure.

Talk Skill, I think can use a small increase in hit%. Mediator itself needs buffs to stats. I'm considering +1 MA and a bit of HP.

Chemists gaining speed is fine.

Hawk's Eye will likely go down to 3 CT. It really is useless.

Abandon... lol I'm not sure at all. It would help mages even more I guess. But from the battles right now, I think mages are pretty damn good. That extra range has helped dramatically.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on July 29, 2011, 02:24:41 am
QuoteTalk Skill range +1 and/or different formula? Current formula demands high MA mage for decent reliability, and locks out low MA units from using it effectively.


This is partly the problem of using MA * 2 + adjusting down the Y values.

QuoteInstead of ((PA+4)/2)*MA, make it (PA/2)*MA instead. Max (or at least close to max) damage Geomancy would be at 120, and the Geomancy user would be fairly squishy, too (~275 HP). Squidgy's Squires as they are would do 100 instead of 140. Damage should be more manageable. Also keep in mind that these numbers are for units fully (or almost fully) optimized for Elemental.


Seriously, this doesn't seem too bad, especially when a bard or wizard with chiri or Kiku does more.  (Of course, Arena has overall lower damage and movement than 1.3, so geomancy is stronger since it didn't scale with the rest of the game.)  Factored for non-abandon evasion, though, geomancy is hardly better than draw out in damage, but geomancy has better range.  Thus, if you really must nerf it, lower its range to 4.
If anything, why is Squire (or Knight in S5's case) a better user of ELEMENTAL than geomancer?

Quote
Monk: Highest HP/PA with innate Martial Arts... 9 speed also? All at the cost of a hat, which'll be circumvented by Equip Armor, or a Ribbon/Cachusha.

Quote
It's stupid that strongest class in vanilla is still the strongest class (or tied for the strongest class what with Paladin) in Arena even after the changes, primarily because it's seem the least changes and has only really gotten buffs.


This is broken, but not because of the high base HP (which is offset by having no headgear).  It's also not really broken for having decent revivals/healings/anti-status (in each category, this is trumped by priest, except MP cost).  Rather, it's the crazy PA totals + the quadratic damage formulas.  Thus, we should change each monk damage formula to be linear, since only nerfing the Martial Arts' multiplier (or removing innate Martial Arts) doesn't stop A Save or (mimed) Battle Song abuse from scaling quadratically.  Once this is true (rendering PUNCH ART skills average without martial arts even when PA > 13), martial arts staying at 3/2x (or innate) would be fine.  Likewise, 7 base SPD is way too crippling, but 8 would be fine.

Quote
What are people's thoughts on increasing the range of most magic by 1? (Katon, Suiton, Raiton are obviously getting their range reduced) Offensive magic isn't too great - 40 Fa makes damage garbage, and at current ranges, it's easy for mages to be midcharged (no midcharge damage bonus is nice, but casters still die/get hurt -> sandbag mode etc). Offensive magic is essentially support - it's anti-sandbag/soften up enemies. It isn't too great at softening up units anyway though cause of 40 Faith. Buffed range would make magic even more of a support than a main source of damage, but mages could possibly squeeze in one more spell before dying.


If the problem is 40 faith proliferation + other tactics to haste/protect/reraise/quicken self, then why not install a faith floor?  We could even make some (or all) reactions dependent on faith (instead of Fury) to trigger.

Quote
I still say the best solution would be to use Xif's stat cap ASM. Much more easily balanced that way, IMO.


If this means no more Speed Save/quickening/A Save/BAttle Song abuse, I'm all for it.

If you bring back abandon, you should also bring back concentrate (at full 0% evasions across the board) as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on August 07, 2011, 01:21:53 pm
Someone mentioned changing Magicward to adding Shell and Regen instead of Shell and Reflect. Considering that Magicward hasn't been used yet, I think this would be a good change. Reflect likely makes one's own magic ineffective, since AI will usually use Magicward when they've been hurt a bit -> Reflect makes healing with magic impossible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on August 30, 2011, 05:17:32 am
Bug: Magicward isn't mimicable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on August 30, 2011, 05:41:04 am
Thanks for that. Fixed for next version. It is also stopped by Silence, so people know.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Squidgy on August 30, 2011, 06:10:47 am
Also... New Angel Song costs mana.

So either the AI will run itself under 5 MP and be a total idiot, or Angel Song restores 5 less mana per song. Perhaps just lower the mp restore by 5? (or 10... or 15...)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on August 30, 2011, 12:59:25 pm
(Despite those both being potential issues, I'd rather see how the AI reacts to the new Angel Song before suggesting anything be done with it.)

Speaking of potential issues, having just seen something pointed out to me by Barren, I only now noticed that you increased MP Restore's JP cost from 400 JP to 550 JP. That seems a bit...excessive (despite me being one of the people who suggested it be either that or 500 JP), but more importantly, it isn't noted in the changelog.

Are there any other surprises that await us in this brave new world of 132?

Blind EDIT: Nevermind, I am apparently didn't see it in the 131 changes for some reason as CT5Holy pointed out. Weird. I could have sworn I read through all of those....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on August 31, 2011, 12:02:27 pm
I didnt want to bring this up earlier since the only time it ever happened before yesterday were in matches against me and it would look like I was just bitter.  After seeing the new matches posted in addition to the earlier ones, it looks to me like Nameless Dance breaks the AI.

From all the matches I've watched with ND, it appears that the AI assumes that all of the statuses that ND can inflict will be applied the next time the dance goes off.  This makes the AI refuse to remove any of the status effects in place as well as influences what their next action will be based on when the next ND goes off.  Not immune to silence?  The AI assumes it will be silenced on the next ND and wont cast any spells.  Your stopped Paladin is going to remain that way regardless of what status recovery you have on your team because the AI assumes he will be restopped in a few CT.

I think that this would need some further testing at the least.  I would happily be proven wrong, but from what I've been seeing, this is an issue that definitely needs to be addressed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on August 31, 2011, 05:39:38 pm
(I'm kinda seeing what Dol is talking about it, but I just thought it was the AI being stupid. I wouldn't really be surprised, though, considering Nameless Song.)

Speaking of recent battles, I'm almost entirely certain now that Auto Potion just isn't working. It's never gone off on anyone as of yet and it's had quite a few chances. If it was just me, then I'd just chalk it up to my usually horrendous luck with...everything, but I'm fairly certain it's just not acting like it should.

It's difficult to tell if this is because of the recent HP boost or if it's always had problems since I don't recall anyone using it (anytime in the recent past).

Somewhat more predictably, it seems like initial Transparent makes the AI act dumb still. I wish there was someway to get around that....

Speaking of initial Transparent, I don't think it was noted that Hidden Knives no longer actually add Speed because if they're supposed to still, they don't. Going to have change that Hirosu team more than I already figured I would because of this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on August 31, 2011, 06:13:40 pm
Well, the few times the unit with Auto-Potion got attacked, he had some statii like Don't Act on him, which removes the ability to use reactions.

And yes, Hidden Knife isn't adding speed like it should.

EDIT: Auto-Potion isn't going off. No idea why, guess I have to investigate.

EDIT2: Does anyone know what the last version had a working Auto Potion?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on August 31, 2011, 09:53:04 pm
You apparently also forgot Echo Grass, both on the Memory Card Generator and on the Chemist's Ability List, according to Mando.

Sucks because I just gave it to my Chemists to counter Nameless Dance spam.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Malroth on September 12, 2011, 02:03:55 am
Question are hawks eye and coverfire affected by fury?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 18, 2011, 05:58:57 pm
Another random thing I noticed helping Malroth with the Memory Card Generator: Mad Science is missing from it, but I've seen it used in matches so I assume it's present in the game?

EDIT:  Apparently it's missing from their skillset too, when I opened up Arena 1.32 to test a few things.  Also, Darkness has absolutely no effect from what I can tell, at least on my units with 0 A-EV.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on September 19, 2011, 07:43:26 pm
I'm pretty sure that Frog (the black magic) is broken.  I put it on a unit in the only way the AI will use it (by giving it a choice of casting Frog or standing still), and it chose to stand still 100% of the time.  It either needs to be fixed a la AutoPotion or just removed completely.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on September 20, 2011, 04:47:31 pm
Can we boost Paladins by 20 HP and/or 1 PA?  They currently are the weakest armored class.  Their skillset is hardly better than jump and they are outclassed in stats by lancer and arguably samurai as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Wiz on September 20, 2011, 08:15:14 pm
I second fdc's suggestion. I'd argue 2 PA so they compete with monks a little bit better :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 20, 2011, 09:01:15 pm
Gotta go with more HP.  Every other armored class is already offensively oriented, herpaberp.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Wiz on September 21, 2011, 08:47:47 pm
That's true, but Knights also have the same amount of PA to an Archer/Lancer whilst 1 point lower in speed, which means they're put out of commission. There's really no reason to pick them of the other two I listed offensively; Their Skillset's not as good as breaking things nor sniping people from afar.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 21, 2011, 08:57:04 pm
Quote from: Wiz on September 21, 2011, 08:47:47 pm
That's true, but Knights also have the same amount of PA to an Archer/Lancer whilst 1 point lower in speed, which means they're put out of commission. There's really no reason to pick them of the other two I listed offensively; Their Skillset's not as good as breaking things nor sniping people from afar.


...And all of this is why I suggested going with the defensive option.  Their entire skillset isn't offensive in any way.  It's a defensive tank.  Iron Will and Magicward are obvious, Grand Cross is a harder-to-use Night Sword, Transfusion and Nurse heal.  Their only purely-offensive skill is Dia... and it's not even based on a stat they're terrible with (MA) and requires high Faith, something they'll only want if relying on Faith for allied buffs.  Hence, buff their defense, let them be proper tanks.  That's what the class wants to be, and like we both just said, we have no need for offense - Lancer covers offensive PA / armored unit role, Samurai covers both offensive PA / armored and MA / armored unit role, and Archer covers the Vanilla Knight's "Break shit" / debuff unit role.  There's no reason to give them more PA.  There's no demand for a powerful armored unit, and the class doesn't want to be a powerful armored unit.  Everything about Arena's needs and the class' skillset says both a defensive armor class is needed and that the class wants to be a defensive armored class, so just let it be one, give it more HP and let other classes beat it in either PA or Speed, because everything about the Paladin says it should be picked because you want something durable, not powerful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on September 22, 2011, 02:39:19 am
The class is whatever you make it to be.  There's no point in arguing what "it wants".

That being said, I don't see why we can't have both.  175 base HP + 11 PA wouldn't cause Paladin to be broken because Paladin's skillset is pathetic.
Furthermore, I don't think we should force specialization too hard on any given class.  It's relatively harder in Arena (compared to 1.3) to make good hybrid units.  I know a lot of metagamers who think that idea is stupid, but if you look at the units who placed well in S5, they were precisely the switch hitters on each team that could grant advantages against multiple team types.  Thus, giving the option for a Paladin capable of offense and defense would actually fill some gaps in Arena as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 27, 2011, 09:28:41 pm
The Master Guide says Mediator can't use Robes, but when constructing teams in-game I can equip Robes onto them.

Which is correct?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 28, 2011, 03:53:13 am
They shouldn't be able to equip Robes. I must have added them incrorrectly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 28, 2011, 10:02:30 pm
Okay.

Also, Murasame at the bare minimum still has a CT, looks to be the only one though.  Pretty sure that's just an oversight, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on September 30, 2011, 06:40:05 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on September 28, 2011, 10:02:30 pm
Okay.

Also, Murasame at the bare minimum still has a CT, looks to be the only one though.  Pretty sure that's just an oversight, though.


No, it's Murasame and Koutetsu.  To be honest, Murasame having a CT is balanced (so it's not obviating White Magic), and Koutetsu...I haven't tested it yet, so I wouldn't know.
EDIT: After seeing Wiz's battle, I think Chiri needs a CT timer instead of Koutetsu.  The rest of the draw outs are fine, though.  While we're on the subject, can we please reduce Ultima's CT and MP cost to 5 and 30, respectively?

However, there are a host of serious AI flag glitches.

Accumulate has check CT and faith flagged under AI flags.  Hence, it is never used.
Quickening does not have check CT flagged under AI flags.  Hence, it is rarely used.
Shell2/Haste2/Protect2 does not have target only allies flagged.
Slow2 does not have target only enemies flagged.
Consecrate has check HP flagged, rather than status.
Tzumazuku has check HP flagged, rather than status.
Draw Outs did not lose the target only allies flag.
Cyclops has both HP and Status flagged, even though the inflict status is only 25%.

For those of you who are wondering what I'm talking about, check this thread: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=4714.msg104619#msg104619

Furthermore, a lot of higher power spells on Black Magic and Summon still have learn on hit flagged.  Although the chances of affecting a battle is small, it still could be an issue.

Other bugs:
1) The purple palette is glitched because units with it occasionally turn black if attacked.  If a purple unit turns black and then crystallizes, the result is a black crystal which freezes the game if grabbed.  A purple crystal is perfectly fine, though.
2) Coral Sword has a second sword strike animation, but this doesn't affect gameplay.
3) Oil does not double fire damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 03, 2011, 03:26:54 pm
Mimes are vulnerable to Death Sentence but are immune to Dead.  That definitely needs to be fixed one way or the other.

Coral Sword is being weird because it's set to Formula 02 instead of Formula 01, so its procing an empty skill.

Draw Outs/Prot2/Shell2/Haste2/Slow2 look fine to me, outside of the CT inconsistency on Draw Out.  (Though Murasame and Chirijiraden having CT is fine by me, they're pretty damn powerful and having a small CT to check them would be cool.  The others are mostly the ones who really need to be instant.)

E: I see which flag now.  Nevermind.  Third Unknown in the Learn On Hit box is incorrect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 03, 2011, 03:36:15 pm
Mimes also probably shouldn't be vulnerable to frog.  It's stronger than sleep (which you can remove by taking damage) or stop (since stop wears off and doesn't cause you to take extra damage).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 05, 2011, 05:03:34 am
Your info about Scholar HP/MP in the Master Guide and in this thread is inaccurate.  You copied the Priest HP/MP info for the female Scholar and the info listed for Male Scholar here and in the Master Guide are different.  The one listed in the Master Guide for the male appears to be the correct one, though the female is definitely wrong in both.  Should be 106 HP and I think around 90-91 MP, but don't quote me on that second number.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 05, 2011, 05:34:35 am
Here's some more ideas.  Some will require some very simple ASM that I can do.

1) Dances are fundamentally not equivalent to songs because -Stats is stronger than +Stats on a percent basis.

Battle Song/Magic Song 50%
Cheer Song 33%
Polka Polka/Disillusion 40%
Slow Dance 25%

The above is probably more balanced than the current implementation.

2) Witch Hunt is really powerful to any squad that uses MP because it's currently too difficult to restore MP.  To remedy this, I suggest:
a) Move-MP UP needs to be 10% again.
b) Give Dia to Priest.  In exchange, give Reraise to Paladin.  Dia doesn't even make sense on a base class with 6 MA on females, while Reraise is hard to use on White Magic since healing interferes with its use.  Furthermore, Priest now has a form of offensive magic for those who can't afford Holy.  To make this useful for healing MP, hack formula 54 (MA * Y = MP Restored) to accept the status re-raise at 100% (so coded like if it were formula 2D).  Y should be 2 or 3 here.  This attack should cost 0 MP...think of it more as chakra (with the same range), but with a CT.  Thus also gives someone a good reason to use a paladin secondary (which right now is crap).
c) No one uses carbunkle because +Transparent bugs the AI.  Thus, I suggest we delete it and replace it with large AoE MP healing.  Because a lot of MP would be healed, this would require an MP cost, on top of costing CT.  Again, the same formula should be used (but no status proc).  Y in this case can be 6, though not higher than 8.

3) Damage Split is too weak now.  It should be 33%.

4) Considering Float is just Jump +1 and Earth Null and Move on Lava, it should cost no more than 200 JP.  Similarly, if Teleport = Fly in effect (the AI almost never goes the extra distance), then it should cost exactly 300 JP.  Lastly, Short Charge and MP Restore are overpriced (since 2S > Short Charge and HP Restore is roughly equal to MP Restore now even though both Short Charge and MP Restore cost more JP).  While we're on the subject, 2 Swords is definitely stronger than 2 Hands because of added weapon choice and that both weapons count for W-EV.  Thus, I suggest costs of 400 for Short charge, 450 for MP Restore, and 550 for Two Swords.

5) We overnerfed Regen.  The status itself in vanilla is weaker than protect, not stronger.
a) Cheer Up needs to be 100% Regen
b) Regen should either cost 50 JP and be the same as Protect/Shell in AoE/Y or be 250 JP and be the same as Protect2/Shell2 in AoE/Y/Ally Only.

6) Making Bio darkness elemental actually makes the spell weaker because of absorption.  Thus, I propose making Bio1/Bio2 non-elemental (since only Bio3 adds undead and could reasonably be considered dark).  Bio3 could also be slightly stronger to justify its CT.

7) Ultima is way too costly for what it does.  Right now, it's ranged chiri that costs more JP/MP/CT.  That's not worth the range.  To be worth 400 JP, ultima needs 5 range, the same AoE, 25 MP, and 5 CT.

8) Speaking of Chiri, I'll reiterate the above.  It NEEDS a CT of 3 to be fair.  Koutetsu does not.

9) It's kind of hard to use instruments or cloths because of class restrictions.  It might be interesting to let EQ: Magegear allow Instruments and EQ: Polearms allow Clothes.

10) Dispel Magic does not work on innocent units because the formula is faith dependent, even though the list of removed statii includes innocent.  Similarly, it is illogical to suggest that an oracle casting Innocent has a better chance of hitting a higher faith unit than a lower faith one when Innocent the status means 0 Faith.  Thus, I suggest that
a) Dispel Magic be made into (MA * 2 + 40)%
b) Innocent be made into (MA * 2 + 30)%
c) Faith be made into (MA * 2 + 30)%

Since these now resemble mediator skills, we can possibly delete threaten/solution/preach/praise and simply transfer the above three skills to Mediators so they'll have a better rounded skillset.  Oracle has more than enough going for it already.

11) Time Mage's Stop is too unreliable.  It's completely outclassed by petrify in terms of accuracy, range and staying power of the effect simply in exchange for AoE.  Increasing Y to 160 is probably necessary, as well as reducing CT to 4.  From there, you can raise the MP cost to balance any inequities (setting it equal to slow2/haste2 at 22 would work).

12) Anything that currently cancels charging needs to also affect perform since perform is charging, but better on CT usage (since it can cast multiple times between turns).  Specifically, this affects throw stone and reflect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 07, 2011, 03:42:30 am
Some thoughts on Magic:

Fire/Ice/Bolt balance is horrendous.  Ice costs more JP, and its only benefit over Bolt is that it costs less MP, which isn't a big deal.  It's useful, but not something so great it should cost more JP.  Ice should be normalized to 50/120/190/260 like Fire and Bolt are.  Fire is a joke.  The MP costs on the ones worth using (Fire3/Fire4) are essentially the same as Bolt, and Fire4 doesn't have the "AoE" benefit the other Fire spells do.  1 AoE 0 Vert?  That's not an AoE, that's fucking Geomancy.  Buff that vertical to at least 2.  The Ys on the lower Fires are also a joke, they're all essentially the same.  My recommended setup is:

Fire: Y=14, MP=6
Fire 2: Y=17, MP=12
Fire 3: Y=21, MP=21
Fire 4: Y=29, MP=30, Vertical 2

Bolt: Y=19, MP=12
Bolt 2: Y=23, MP=18
Bolt 3: Y=27, MP=30
Bolt 4: Y=35, MP=40

Ice: Y=16, MP=3
Ice 2: Y=20, MP=6
Ice 3: Y=24, MP=12
Ice 4: Y=32, MP=20

Across-the-board JP costs of 50/120/180/260 for 1/2/3/4.

Ice stayed the same, Bolt is basically the same with slightly rounded/higher MP costs, and Fire saw a combination of Y buffs and MP reduction to better situate them into tiers compared to Bolt/Ice, and Ice had its JP cost lowered because the higher cost is unnecessary and just further exacerbates the problem of Mages being nearly impossible to make due to JP constraints when compared to physical hitters.  This is especially true because Move-MP UP is essentially required for mages, and it was blasted to 5% MP for no reason and still carries a 500 JP cost + 250 class unlock cost, considering its not in a class most mages use magic from.  If you refuse FDC's suggestion of placing it back at 10% heal, at least reduce the JP cost to 250.  I prefer moving it back to 10% though, the current Move-MP Up is worthless on non-Mages, required on Mages, and eats a quarter of their JP.  It's basically like Short Charge in that regard.  Even when making a simple Wizard that took most of its R/S/M from the Wizard primary class... I only had the JP for two skills and one skill in its secondary class because Move-MP UP is overpriced and underpowered, and because Ice is overpriced for no reason.

Death is also a joke.  Half the hit rate of Petrify, for more MP and double the JP cost for a weaker effect that's blocked by a bunch of anti-Dead gear and one of the most commonly used Clothings and is far easier to recover from?  ...No.  If anything, Death is what deserves to be Y=200, not Petrify.  Really, just make that Y 200 please.  Buff Frog back to at least what it was before in terms of a Y value too, please.

MID-POST EDIT: Wizard's Poison could also go down to, erm, 50 JP.

Speaking of Y values... Oracle is a mess.  Petrify is essentially a guaranteed hit at 70v70 unless they have M-EV even if your MA is 0, and it's easily the most powerful skill in their skillset.  Their weakest skills oddly also have the lowest Y values.  Some recommended Y values:

Blind=255
Spell Absorb=255
Life Drain=190
Zombie=200
Silence Song=170
Blind Rage=160
Petrify=170
Beguile=150
Paralyze=170
Sleep=160

I didn't list Pray Faith / Doubt Faith / Dispel because I very heartily agree with FDC's idea of moving them to Mediator and giving it and Oracle some distinction, but good Ys should be easy enough to create for them if you disagree with that notion.  160/160/210, at least.

I think FDC covered everything else I could say in regards to mages.

EDIT:

Accumulate and Quickening could lose their CTs so the AI will actually use them on off-turns, too.  Quickening's MP cost is enough to prevent over-spamming, and Mime's idiocy has been dealt with so Miming both Quickening and Accumulate shouldn't be anywhere close to a problem.

EDIT 2:

Equip Armor could drop to 400 JP.  It sees some use, but is still prohibitively expensive, especially since the Paladin class' skillset as secondary is absolute shit, making Equip Armor's cost essentially 850 vs Defense UP, Magic Defense UP, and Unyielding which both only have a base cost of 400 and come in skillsets where you can actually use the skillset without being laughed at, meaning you're not always paying the 250 overhead for just your defensive booster.  Drop Equip Armor to 400 please, to make it fit in a bit better with its contemporaries.  Combined with what FDC suggested on the Dia/Reraise thing to make Paladin secondary actually at least begin to be worth a damn, Equip Armor should actually sit at least somewhat balanced against its three defensive counterparts.

EDIT 3:

Speaking of Paladins, Transfusion and Consecration could do to be a bit cheaper JP-wise.  Consecration is barely useful (and its stronger yet also barely useful contemporary of Seal Evil is only 200 JP) and Transfusion is super iffy and pretty much always weaker than Murasame for double the JP cost and a dedication requirement to offset the lost HP.  Lower costs would at least make these skills easier to experiment with, at least in the case of Transfusion.  Right now, it's prohibitively expensive, considering for the same price you can get the generally more effective Grand Cross.  Grand Cross is good enough to earn its high JP cost, Transfusion isn't.

EDIT 4:

Random question - Why does Jump, a situational skillset that the AI has a hard time using correctly, cost 900 JP to get the "full" version of, when a full set of Geomancy only costs 600?  

I know you can technically get four Jumpers by spreading out what you buy, but if you try to buy 600 JP worth of Jump, usually the Horizontal is too shit to be worth it, or you have almost no Vertical.  I'm not saying Level Jump 5 + Vertical Jump 8 need to be 600 JP combined, but some price cuts along the Jump skillset would be really nice considering Geomancy is generally both far better and far cheaper.  Also, ever considered adding a Level Jump 6 over what used to be Level Jump 8?  Easy to do in FFTPatcher, and 6 Horizontal would actually be worth 450-500 JP since its the range most other powerful skills like Flare, etc. utilize.  Level Jump 7 might be too much (though I'd add it too anyway for a test, but I like taking risks like that, you can easily turn Vertical Jump 2 into Level Jump 7 if you wanted), but Level Jump 6 wouldn't be an issue.  Having five different Level Jumps would also make reducing the costs of other Level Jumps easier, since as said before, Level Jump 6 can just take the place of Level Jump 5 at 400-500, and if you pull Vertical Jump 2 for Level Jump 7, you can easily just lower the costs of all the other Vertical Jumps by a tier as well and handle that.  

The other issue I'm for lowering JP costs on Jump / adding at least Level Jump 6 is because you generally also have to bomb 250 JP on Equip Polearm and give up having a useful Support to utilize Jump as a secondary, since Jump primary is almost useless due to Lancer's 9 SPD.  Level Jump 7 is probably unnecessary, but the rest at least should be definitely done, personally.

EDIT 5:

Half of MP should only be 200 JP, and be contrasted by Move-MP UP at 500 JP and 10% MP restoration and MP Restore at 400 JP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on October 12, 2011, 01:37:08 pm
Looks like 1.337 Quickening has the old Accumulate bug, where if you cast then move it stays on the panel rather than on the unit.   :evil:
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 12, 2011, 03:10:22 pm
Quote from: Dol on October 12, 2011, 01:37:08 pm
Looks like 1.337 Quickening has the old Accumulate bug, where if you cast then move it stays on the panel rather than on the unit.   :evil:


/sigh/

Give me 15 minutes.

Go download 1.338, everyone.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on October 19, 2011, 03:19:36 pm
Hmmm, now Quickening does nothing, the way the old Scream worked way back in the day.  Such a pain to have to try and fix  :(
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2011, 08:07:29 pm
Yeah I found the issue.  I trusted Accumulate to be "fixed" instead of actually checking everything myself... it wasn't fixed.

I think I got handled now.  No time to test it right now, but I'm 99% confident this will fix both skills so I'm uploading in a minute.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on December 11, 2011, 04:44:23 am
I have a few quick questions about damage modifiers.

1.  How does Attack UP modify the damage of a dagger?  Is it (4/3)(PA+Sp)/2 or ((4/3)PA+Sp)/2?

2.  Is elemental strengthening considered before or after Attack UP?  This matters for step-wise integer division.

3.  Are MA-based weapons (eg. staves) modified by Attack UP or Magic Attack UP?

4.  Are PA guns, MA guns, or flails modified by Attack UP, Magic Attack UP, or Overwhelm?

The battle mechanics FAQ states that elemental strengthening is considered before Attack UP.  It also states that Attack UP sets a dagger's damage to (4/3)(PA+Sp)/2, which doesn't seem right to me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 11, 2011, 05:05:28 am
1. It takes your final XA, multiply it by 4, and divide it by 3.  So in a case where PA and SP are 5, it should be (5+5) = 10, 10 / 2 = 5, 5 * 4 = 20, 20 / 3 = 6.  For Attack UP and Magic Attack UP, you perform the multiplication and then the division, not fractional multiplication (there's no difference, really, but that's how the game does it), and the decimal is dropped.  So with 5 base PA and 5 base SPD, your final Dagger XA would be 6.

2. Elemental Boost routine comes before the Attack UP / Magic Attack UP routine.  If you stack both, perform Elemental Boost, then perform Attack UP or Magic Attack UP on the new value.  So if you have 20 MA, Elemental Boost makes this 25 (20*5 = 100, 100/4), then Magic Attack UP boosts up this 25, resulting in a "final MA" of 33 (25*4 = 100, 100/3 = 33).

3. All Weapon Attacks (defined as the Attack Command, except Magic Guns) are always boosted by Attack UP.  Magic Guns are boosted by Magic Attack UP because their Formula merely calls a skill from a list, and that skill with WP substituted as XA is what's cast, taking the "shooting magic" example used to justify them in-game very literally.

4. Magic Guns are covered above.  Flails and non-Magic Guns are boosted by Attack UP, but only one instance of WP is boosted.  If you have 12 WP (Stone Gun), your final damage after Attack UP is 16*12, or 192 before Fury.  This is why Scorpion Tail only lost 1 WP despite its huge DPS, that 1 WP made Attack UP boosting go from 16*12 to 14*11.  Still very, very painful, but not OP.  The self-boosting Flails essentially use 12*10 as their base Formula for this reason, with Attack UP making them 16*10.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on December 11, 2011, 09:27:47 pm
That was informative.  Thank you.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 14, 2011, 06:08:02 pm
Magicward and Iron Will are listed as 200 JP in the spreadsheet but 100 JP on the Master Guide.
Also, some of the moves under mediator are still listed as MA * 2 rather than MA on the Master Guide.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on December 14, 2011, 07:13:45 pm
I fixed up the mediator problem about an hour ago. Fixed Magicward/Iron Will on the spreadsheet.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on December 18, 2011, 01:29:18 pm
Any idea how to get a Paladin to use Quickening?  At first I thought that if they had Nurse they wouldnt do it, but my latest revision removed Nurse and they still wont use it.  Its pretty bizarre.

Also, Hawk's Eye really sucks.  Adds a charge time and does a very minimal increase in damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on December 18, 2011, 02:21:25 pm
Another question: How does elemental weakness affect success rate?  I'm looking at Death, Demi, and Demi 2 in particular.  
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: doriantoki on December 18, 2011, 04:51:48 pm
Elemental weakness doesn't affect proc rates, as far as I know.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Generic19 on December 21, 2011, 06:19:15 am
New to this mod and have a newb question.  Does two hands doubling effective PA change anything that the original two hands doubling effective WP did not?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on December 21, 2011, 08:06:00 am
Two Hands I think only effected weapon power, but PA factors in as well like PA*WP. it depends on the weapon of course because the formulas are different sometimes
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Generic19 on December 21, 2011, 08:34:13 am
Ah, but I mean, isn't it 'effectively' identical for all intents and purposes?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: TrueLight on December 21, 2011, 11:18:17 am
Yes, Two Hands is solely used to double the damage of the weapon, nothing more.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on January 11, 2012, 09:53:24 am
For the elemental Ninja attacks, are they reduced by Shell or Protect?  I'm thinking it should be Shell, but after watching the marathon again, its looking like Shell had no effect on the damage when units used Magicward.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on January 11, 2012, 02:26:02 pm
The -tons are boosted by Attack UP, so I'm guessing they will be reduced by Protect. Your observations of Shell doing nothing would contribute to this guess.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 07, 2012, 04:52:22 pm
Some changes:

1) Make the spell guns always proc the Tier 3 spell so we can lower their WP.  Kagesougi gunner is a little too strong.
2) Remove the MP cost off transfusion.  There's no need to pay in HP and MP.
3) Remove haste from nameless song.  With it, the AI will never stop using nameless song.
4) Change grand cross so it can't target self.  To be honest, I'd rather see it add poison than blind since Kagesougi already does that.  (The fact that you can now use a PA optimized setup should already balance the new grand cross favorably against chirijiraden and spin fist and justify the MP cost.)
5) Give Secret Clothes Null: Blind / Poison / Oil since it's currently underpowered compared to thief hat, much less the +PA/MA gear.
6) Please move Dia to Priest and Reraise to Paladin.  As Raven and I both noted a while back, both skills currently are underused in their current skillsets because they conflict with the skillset since Paladin has no MA to use Dia while Priest has Raise and thus doesn't really need Reraise.
7) Make Hawkeye worthwhile by merging it with Greased Bolt.  An unevadable SP * WP attack that adds oil and poison is worth the charge time and MP; the current implementation is not.
8) Make Spellbreaker deal weapon attack damage + 50% Remove positive statii at MP cost.  This makes it useful compared to weapons like chaos blade or gold staff without obviating dispel magic or the above weapons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 09, 2012, 08:56:57 pm
Here are a few more.  Not all of them need to be adopted.  (But some of them do!)

Skills


Equipment


Status Effects


Finally, I'd like to echo FDC's suggestion about the guns.  Have them use tier 3 spells and lower the WP values of the fire, ice, and lightning guns to 13, 12, and 11, respectively.  This is tantamount to having the current guns proc spells a little weaker than tier 2 100% of the time.  Damage will be about 10 points higher on average (pre-Faith modifier) to possibly make the idea of a gun mage feasible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 09, 2012, 09:45:07 pm
Gaignun, the way I coded oil makes your suggestions to oil rather impractical: you'd either have to single out fire weakness induced by oil as 1.5x weakness or change elemental weakness as a whole to 1.5x.

As for decreasing the range on spells like holy / flare, I have to disagree.  There should exist spells as long-ranged as guns, especially since holy and flare aren't AoE.  The huge JP / MP costs are more than worth 6 range.

As for Kiyomori, it currently only works on teams with very defensive / evasive units with long-term strategies (zombie / death sentence / stat reduction).  Increasing the AoE will not increase use because the AI thinks poison is HP damage, and thus, will use poison over attacking.

Personally, I'd reduce masamune's vert to 0 because it really is that OP, but that's just probably me habitually running squads with 8 SPD units.

Also, what exactly do you mean by [1,3] or [2,3] for Koutetsu?  I do understand that the current AoE is kind of strong, but I'm not too sure what you are trying to suggest.

Personally, I'd rather break the consistency and subject ninjitsu to shell and M-EV (as well as reflect).  If you think about all the other broken attacks currently dominating the metagame (grand cross and kagesougi), they are also blocked by protect and P-EV.  Adding ninjitsu to this pile makes it too easy to counter, just run a team like Losers (high evasion) or spam Cherche (which incidentally stops so many other threats).  In short, by making all the strong physical attacks evadable by P-EV and reducible by protect, you guarantee the existence of an obvious hard counter, which can create a rock-paper-scissors metagame.
Part of the reason why shell/reflect/M-EV is underused is because unlike physicals, there exists far more variety in undercutting M-EV (summons), reflect (summons and Tier 4 spells), or shell (status magic).  However, if ninjitsus were also blocked by this (and if we make Draw Out more attractive an offensive option), there would be much more reason to run shell/M-EV.
Just to give an example, I may still run DEFUP or Cherche on 40 Fury units because I fear the power of the physical hitters in the current metagame.  On the other hand, I invariably use setiemson only to cover the weaknesses of an initial: faith or 70 faith unit because I know that most units with above 300 HP and 40 - 55 faith have little to fear from most mages without MATKUP / elemental boost / initial: faith.  Those that are threats usually are damage optimized, meaning they lack either the spell casting speed (Short Charge) or HP necessary to survive my spell interruption attempts.  Draw Out, with the exception of kiku, has less range and is less of a threat.  When optimized, it does less damage than flare.  The same can be said of ultima (which bugs the AI) and geomancy (even less damage, and the status effect isn't really stopped by shell).  To be honest, MATKUP + elemental boost on spell guns are more of a threat than the last two because the archer or chemist using it can have 350+ HP and 9+ SPD.  (Notice that many physical strikers share this trait: just consider the jumpers on Raven's team, the 2H paladins on my team, or the myriad of kagesougi gunners.)

Replacing Confusion with MP Regen would require some AI hacking.  I don't mind doing it though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 09, 2012, 10:13:55 pm
Ah, you responded while I was still editing my post post-post. 

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 09, 2012, 09:45:07 pm
Gaignun, the way I coded oil makes your suggestions to oil rather impractical: you'd either have to single out fire weakness induced by oil as 1.5x weakness or change elemental weakness as a whole to 1.5x.


Tough luck, then, huh.  I still think oil should be more easily utilised, though.

Quote
As for decreasing the range on spells like holy / flare, I have to disagree.  There should exist spells as long-ranged as guns, especially since holy and flare aren't AoE.  The huge JP / MP costs are more than worth 6 range.


Holy and Flare are much stronger than guns, though.  I view their 0 AoE as the tradeoff of their power.  To each his/her own.

Quote
As for Kiyomori, it currently only works on teams with very defensive / evasive units with long-term strategies (zombie / death sentence / stat reduction).  Increasing the AoE will not increase use because the AI thinks poison is HP damage, and thus, will use poison over attacking.


There are more reliable ways of punching through stall tactics than Kiyomori.  What do you think of my suggestion to change Kiyomori to something entirely?

Quote
...what exactly do you mean by [1,3] or [2,3] for Koutetsu?  I do understand that the current AoE is kind of strong, but I'm not too sure what you are trying to suggest.


I mean the area of effect extends from two tiles away from the user to three tiles away - kind of like crossbows.  It's a very mild nerf. 

Quote
Personally, I'd rather break the consistency and subject ninjitsu to shell and M-EV (as well as reflect).  If you think about all the other broken attacks currently dominating the metagame (grand cross and kagesougi), they are also blocked by protect and P-EV.  Adding ninjitsu to this pile makes it too easy to counter, just run a team like Losers (high evasion) or spam Cherche (which incidentally stops so many other threats).  In short, by making all the strong physical attacks evadable by P-EV and reducible by protect, you guarantee the existence of an obvious hard counter, which can create a rock-paper-scissors metagame.
Part of the reason why shell/reflect/M-EV is underused is because unlike physicals, there exists far more variety in undercutting M-EV (summons), reflect (summons and Tier 4 spells), or shell (status magic).  However, if ninjitsus were also blocked by this (and if we make Draw Out more attractive an offensive option), there would be much more reason to run shell/M-EV.


Kagesougi and Grand Cross won't be a problem if our change to guns is followed through.  Then people will move onto Shell and M-Ev to protect themselves from the next biggest threat: Draw Out and magic.  What would P-Ev be used for if not for Ninjutsu?  Apart from Kagesougi and Grand Cross, physical offense is a little toothless at the moment.  Physical attacks are weak due in part to the attraction of magic; it is safer to stick to Brave-independent skills and keep Brave low than add the option of attacking with weapons and opening oneself to the opponent's weapons (particularly that painful Stone Gun, which goes through P-Ev anyway) at the same time.  The job traditionally dedicated to fearsome physicals, ninjas, has been declawed.  They are weaker than squires, slower than thieves, and as squishy as scholars.   Punch Art, which should be holding the banner of physical-based offense, is excluded to all but units that sacrifice everything for PA thanks to its unwieldy quadratic formulae.  People don't need Ninjutsu to entice them to stack M-Ev; they already are for Draw Out and status magic - and I hope they would be for black magic if not for the impotence of the skill set.

Quote
Replacing Confusion with MP Regen would require some AI hacking.  I don't mind doing it though.


Sounds great!  Don't kill yourself over it, though.  It's currently a suggestion that's been thrown out there, after all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 09, 2012, 10:34:01 pm
You misread what I meant.  I meant that only stall teams can currently use kiyomori the Samurai spell.
As for changing it?  I can currently see a good niche use for it, as I can for Zombie and Heretic, but I admit such things won't see mass popularity, so I really don't mind it being changed but I won't advocate for it either.

[2,3] is actually really hard to code.  An alternative would be to change it to
Range 1
Area of Effect 2
Vertical 2

Quote
Apart from Kagesougi and Grand Cross, physical offense is a little toothless at the moment.  Physical attacks are weak due in part to the attraction of magic

If anything, Kagesougi and Grand Cross are the main culprits why physical offense is toothless right now.
If a melee attacker attacks a grand cross user, if the attacker doesn't immediately kill the Grand Cross user, the Grand Cross user will retaliate by healing himself while damaging AND blinding the melee attacker.  The blind makes the melee attacker's future attacks very uncertain while the Grand Cross user just erased most of the damage.
Similarly, a melee attacker must close the distance against a Kagesougi user.  If the close range attacker has too low move or was outsped (most Kagesougi archers have 9+ SPD), he'll take an attack strong enough to qualify as a 2HKO and will usually be blinded.  He'll either have to fall back and heal (for less than the damage taken, usually) or try for an uncertain kill shot (assuming he has one).

As for the trade-off between 40 and 70 fury?

70 Fury
+Reacts more
+Does more physical damage
-Takes more physical damage

40 Fury
+Takes less physical damage
-Does less physical damage
-Reacts less

Just from heuristics, as long as you have a reaction you care about and your damage is physical, it makes more sense to run 70 Fury, provided that unit (and by extension, his squad) can support that with the necessary damage output and healing.  More specifically, 40 fury only helps a low (< 300) HP unit survive a 1HKO attack, usually by being left in critical (which usually is just as bad in terms of tempo).  Obviously, for a charging mage, this doesn't matter as much since the charged spell will now go off (whereas with 70 fury, it would not), but for a physical striker, being put in critical leads to cowardly behavior.  Only when HP goes past around 350 (assuming no other defensive mechanisms) does 40 fury start to convert optimized physical 2HKOs into 3HKOs.  It's still a matter of playstyle (and obviously, my offensive bias shows here), but the downside of 70 fury really is overstated.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 09, 2012, 11:39:03 pm
QuoteYou misread what I meant.  I meant that only stall teams can currently use kiyomori the Samurai spell.  Or do you mean the weapon?


No, I meant the skill.  Sorry.  It's still weak at 1 range, though.

You're too hung up on Kagesougi and Grand Cross.  Kagesougi, Grand Cross, and Ninjutsu are the only things representing physical offense right now.  Consider Kagesougi and Grand Cross gone with the guns.  The next best option apart from Ninjutsu is physical attacks.  No physical attack is going to put a caster into critical state from full HP.  A Stone Gun does 151 damage with 70-on-40 Brave and Attack UP.   300 HP units with passive regen will take two bullets and still live.  This damage is manageable.   The only physical attacks more threatening than a Stone Gun that I can think of is Jump and Two Swords (dual wielding weapons).  Like Stone Gun, Jump goes through P-Ev.  Jump also takes time to land, which gives the opposing AI time to respond, turn order permitting.  Two Swords can hurt more and delivers damage instantly, but requires close proximity, is subjected to C-Ev and W-Ev, and has two chances to miss.  Neither Jump nor Two Swords will 1HKO at any rate.  More importantly, both target only one unit.  A single-target attack that doesn't kill is the most manageable form of damage.  Magic, on the other hand, hits multiple targets.  One may die while another is wounded at the same time.  Support needs to both heal and resurrect on the same turn.  High faith, which is indispensable for units with Raise 2, will take heavy damage.  This damage is much less manageable, and it is what I will strive to mitigate with shell.  Sure, status magic goes through shell.  It doesn't go through M-Ev, however, which is what I'll be stacking in lieu of P-Ev, which is of no use against Stone Guns and Jump.  Now I am exposed to Ninjutsu.  I still have a chance of dodging with C-Ev and W-Ev, thank goodness!

The way I see the defensive balance is

P-Ev: physical attacks, Ninjutsu, breaks
Protect: physical attacks, Ninjutsu, Jump

M-Ev: Magic (sans Summon), Draw Out, status effects
Shell: Magic (inc. Summon), Draw Out, Elemental

Moving Ninjutsu to M-Ev/Shell would imbalance the... well, balance.  If Punch Art was fearsome enough to deserve a mention, I would have no problem with Ninjutsu jumping the fence from P-Ev to M-Ev.

Minor point, but:

Quote
... the Grand Cross user will retaliate by healing himself while damaging AND blinding the melee attacker.  The blind makes the melee attacker's future attacks very uncertain while the Grand Cross user just erased most of the damage.


I empathise with this plight.  I think the 100% blind effect of Grand Cross and Kagesougi is unnecessary.  I would remove it or lower its proc. rate if I was calling the shots.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 10, 2012, 02:09:25 am
A couple of other useless moves.

1) Heretic (I can think of exactly one offensive setup that exploits it, but I'm not sure on how well it works.  I'll report back once I test that squad.)
2) Preach (I can also think of a use for this, though creating the proper speed synchronization is tricky.)
3) Solution (For the purposes of spell interruption, bizen boat / mimic daravon / blackmail is uniformly better, as is sinkhole and throw stone.  This has the same use as 1), but is much more of a risk.)
4) Doku no Kyoukai (I bet if I make a tanky enough squad, I can get this to work)
5) Nameless Song / Dance (The AI will probably never stop spamming either because they add haste and slow, respectively.)
6) Bad Luck (This can't even be used on tanking squads.  The range is limited, the AI will spam it because it thinks it's always adding dead, and there's a charge time, which exposes the caster to 100% accuracy attacks.)

Proposed Fixes:
1) None yet as I still have a testable strategy.
2) None yet as I still have a testable strategy.
3) is inferior both as spell interruption and as the strategy usable for Heretic.  Can we please fuse it with insult?  Not only does this distinguish mediator more from oracle, it gives insult more weight with the AI towards spell interruption while ensuring that innocent will also be added.
4) None yet, but I don't have a testable strategy.
5) Simply removing haste and slow from the respective spells won't work because we break parity between Nameless Song and Dance.  Slow is vital to making Nameless Dance moderately useful, while haste ensures Nameless Song is used proactively.  Thus, I think both skills just need to do something different.  I personally prefer Nameless Song being a 33% at mass esuna and Nameless Dance being a 50% at mass dispel magic (since positive statii are on the whole less decisive than charm or petrify).
6) I like the idea, but what if we changed the charge time to "persevere", i.e. performance?  This would mean that every 4 CT clicks, a unit inflicts some subset of {Dead, Darkness, Silence, Oil, Slow, Stop} to a unit that originally started within 1 range of the caster.  It costs 9 MP per use (which we can certainly up to 12 or 15, if needed) and will continue until the caster changes targets or inflicts stop / dead on the target.  On average, it'll take 36 MP to kill someone (and 18 MP to stop or kill someone), but the spell is close range (so much more limited than wizard death or TM Stop), but you get multiple chances (usually 1-2 in between turns), which makes up for the expected CT of 8 for stop OR dead.  Unlike the wizard spell death, actually works against the undead.  If nothing else, it would encourage people to null dead and stop.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 10, 2012, 02:41:17 pm
Nameless Song should be 100% hit. This way you're guaranteed a buff, which is the reason one would use Nameless Song in the first place. The buff is still random, so you won't always get the most helpful buff, and you might get the same buff applied twice in a row.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 02:45:32 am
For the record, I'd like to add a comment about elemental guns and Kagesougi. In addition to the usual defense of elemental absorbtion, Kagesougi Gunner is vulnerable to Projectile Guard [Hence my Unappreciated team]. If Grand Cross was also vulnerable, you wouldn't have to nerf the elemental guns.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 11, 2012, 10:47:00 am
Anything using a gun is blockable by projectile guard including MATKUP spell gunners, Jumping Gunners, Grand Cross gunners, and Kagesougi gunners.  However, if you intend to argue that people should run 2x projectile guard on two units and 2x black costume on other units just to deal with the current metagame, then we clearly have a broken tactic on our hands because you're effectively saying that people have to resort to junk defenses (projectile guard is worthless against any non-gunner team) just to stop your team.
For the record, the maximum damage dealt by Kagesougi gunner is 16 * 5/4 * 4/3 * 17 or 26 * 17 = 442 before Fury, which is actually more the maximum damage capacity of last season.  When you consider that Arena also has lower HP, movement, and SPD totals than S5, while this kind of damage also hits at 6 range and the Kagesougi gunner can attack at a decent magical clip, Kagesougi gunner is currently the most broken damage tactic (especially since the only physical units that do more have to use berserk at melee range, which gives them only one option and is extremely risky).

As for subjecting ninjitsu to P-EV?  As it currently stands and using Gaignun's notation,

P-Ev: physical attacks, breaks
Protect: physical attacks, Ninjutsu, Jump

M-Ev: Magic (sans Summon, Holy, Flare), Draw Out, status effects
Shell: Magic (inc. Summon, Holy, Flare), Draw Out, Elemental
Reflect: Magic (sans Summon, Tier 4), status effects, ninjitsu

This may not seem "balanced" but we can't weigh everything equally.  Breaks are a mostly bad offensive option due to their low hit chances, and are about equal to the attacks at the low end of the physical spectrum.  Physical attacks include kagesougi, grand cross, 2H weapons, 2S flails or elemental boost ninjato, 2 climhazzard knives, berserkers, and punch art (~240 DMG base at optimum).  Thus, although P-EV really only blocks one category, it is by far the most significant category to block.  Considering you can get it higher than 33%, when you calculate the expected damage dealt by your opponent, you can have it block this subset of attacks far more than Protect ever could.
One can reasonably argue protect blocks a more significant subset of physical attacks, but protect only can block 2/3 of the damage so the trade-off with P-EV is reasonable (though I'd still argue protect is slightly stronger since 33%+ P-EV isn't exactly easy to get either).
If you look at M-EV, we have four skewed effects.  At a mechanical level, C and W-EV only work on P-EV.  Second, the metagame is dominated by physical damage, which discourages the need for M-EV.  Thirdly, because most magic doesn't do enough, a unit with 40 faith doesn't need M-EV (unlike a unit with 40 fury); the units usually most afraid of magic are high-faith mages themselves, but they can't evade while charging.  Lastly, and probably most importantly, most players tend to use only the strongest or highest AoE spells, and these are precisely holy, flare, and Summon, the very things M-EV cannot block.  Thus, M-EV's effect is really only significant vs. Draw Out and Status Effects.  Out of the two, statii is actually the more dangerous threat because draw out is an inferior range and damage option compared to magic.  But even then, a mediator has a far higher hit chance against a 40 faith unit than an oracle.
I won't go over shell here, but it's fairly clear that the parity between M-EV and Shell is nowhere near the the parity of P-EV and Protect.  Even if we "fix" the brokenness of grand cross and kagesougi, the physical metagame would still remain fairly dominant so units with 40 fury would still probably want DEFUP/Protect or P-EV and M-EV will still be weaker than P-EV.  Thus, adding ninjitsu to P-EV, although it would make P-EV have parity with protect, would do nothing to solve the M-EV/P-EV parity and would likely only worsen that problem.  This is why I propose subjecting ninjitsu to M-EV.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 11:12:51 am
No, Grand Cross ignore Projectile Guard, at least with Elemental Guns. Test it yourself.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 12:36:11 pm
Look, an ability is not junk because it is not useful in 100% of situations. If that is your definition, then most abilities are going to be Junk, including Auto Potion, HP Restore, Holy, Kotetsu, Charm, and Zombie. You would not say all those abilities are useless just because they don't always work.

No, an ability is rated on 1) How often it is used 2) the strength of its use 3) The positive cost of using it and 4) the negative cost of using it.

Let's pretend Projectile Guard actually DID block Grand Cross. Projectile Guard is useful against any physical ranged unit, barring Monks and Lancers. And I'd say running into physical ranged units is about as common as running into Draw Out. But I'll give it a "B" under category 1.

It gets an A under category 2. It shuts down ranged attacks. Not only that, but the AI will still make the attempt, creating wasted actions. The very nature of Ranged Attacks means that multiple units will be in range, and since we know how AI targeting priorities work, it is not too hard to create units that will be frequently shot at. When it comes into play, in comes in HARD.

It gets an A under category 3. All you need is Brave and Faith. You can slap it on ANY unit, it is independent of stats. Further, it even activates when a unit otherwise would not get evasion. Abandon and Awareness require specific equipment builds - Projectile Guard does not.

It gets a B under category 4, but only because I'm being overly critical. To be honest, no reaction is so game breaking that using Projectile Guard instead of it handicaps you. Auto Potion works if you stack Protect and Shell, and/or Defense up, but by no means is it game breaking. HP restore comes up less than you expect, mainly because the very build that makes it useful discourages enemies from attacking! Abandon and Awareness require equipment, and though they tend to be more useful, but there are plenty of attacks that ignore evasion. MA Save / PA Save seldom triggers often enough or for long enough time to affect the outcomes of matches. Counter assumes the attacker is actually in range. Same with Meatbone Slash. Dragon Spirit sounds good, until you realize that the revived unit is still going to run or heal itself (often not enough to escape imminent death). And counter magic takes MP, and since most magic attacks are elemental, you might end up HEALING the attacking unit!

You claim it is Junk because you don't use it. I could understand that if you knew that Grand Cross bypassed it (And I would downgrade category 1 to a D), but you thought you could get the same evasion even against that. If I don't use projectile guard, it is because either A) I know it doesn't work against 1/3 of the Gun threat (Grand Cross) or B) I don't have the job points to spare.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 11, 2012, 12:58:46 pm
Actually, I understand what you're saying.

You're right. Absolutely. We need more MA Evade.

Have you considered greatly boosting the MA Evade of Shields and Mantles? Elemental resists are another reason people might skimp on the Evade...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dynablade on April 11, 2012, 02:32:50 pm
Just a question about Damage Split, is anything being done to it? I know I'm a scrub, but 33% feels too low. Maybe it's supposed to be an anti-sandbagging tool, unit with low health from across the screen hits with lore, you DS, they die? I dunno, but at 33% it felt more prudent to go after pure defense in Defense UP and somewhat risky high evade Abandon than it did to use Damage Split and die because you weren't able to reflect enough damage back.

Again, I'm a scrub, but I love Damage Split. Tanks are easy to make and work well with this crazy ass AI running shit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 11, 2012, 02:37:15 pm
Fanatic, I think you missed the point of my argument in both of your posts.

Arrow Guard ONLY blocks gunners and crossbowmen and the assorted weapon attacks coming from them.  It does NOTHING else.  When you compare this to HP Restore or Auto Potion (which pretty much works against everything EXCEPT status), it's clear arrow guard is a much more restrictive ability.  Thus, if I run into a team that doesn't use a gunner (which is far more common than a team that ONLY uses status), I just wasted my JP.  However, against gunner squads, I'll probably defeat them.  HOwever, as we've seen in the current metagame, that gunner squad is likely to defeat the generalized damage squad.  Thus, we create a rock-paper-scissors cycle:
Gunner Squad > Other DMG squad
Anti-Gunner Squad > Gunner Squad
Other DMG Squad > Anti-Gunner Squad
The fact that gunners can only be reliably countered by explicit anti-gunner tactics that put your team at a disadvantage against every other damage squad implies guns are broken.  Anyone who remembers Y U SO DERP and I AM SO DERP can see the parallels.

As for M-EV, the problem isn't how much you have; the problem is that the stuff it blocks is not as dangerous as the stuff blocked by P-EV.  Giving you more M-EV does not fix this problem.

Dynablade, 50% Damage Split as in vanilla and 1.3 is broken though.  EArlier version of Arena ran on 25% and that was too low.  I think 33% is just right.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Wiz on April 11, 2012, 10:55:39 pm
Why is everyone discussing about making changes to the patch? It's not like as if these are going to be implemented and used for the tournament. Quite a few teams have already been submitted and nerfing "X, Y, and Z" will only ruin the build for some of those teams and they'll have to redo them all over again.

If people are just throwing random ideas out for post-tourney, then I've got no quarrels with that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dinosaur on April 12, 2012, 04:37:49 am
This has been said and I agree with it so much I made a meme:

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/18374257.jpg)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 12, 2012, 03:17:17 pm
Quote from: Wiz on April 11, 2012, 10:55:39 pmIf people are just throwing random ideas out for post-tourney, then I've got no quarrels with that.


This.  I'm scooping the complaints others will make once the tournament is over.

Quote from: dinosaur on April 12, 2012, 04:37:49 am
This has been said and I agree with it so much I made a meme:

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/18374257.jpg)



Masamune's vertical is so damn high I can't eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Listen!  Someone's stomach churl chowl-stomach just growled!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 12, 2012, 10:48:30 pm
I just noticed that since most of the sources of protect come from the cherche, that squire recoil damage skill probably should have null: reraise and regen instead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 13, 2012, 11:07:16 am

Oh, I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I thought it was for constructive criticism and brainstorming of possible future rule changes in response to the exhibitions that are going on right now, as well as the comments and predictions concering how issues will effect the future tournament. But I understand this topic is actually for complaints about why we lost? Okay, I'm cool with that.

In that case, I would like to complain about the reason I lost this recent tournament: Maps. When I played my first match against whoever that will be, I was placed on a map that put me at a disadvantage. The map's chokepoint left me vulnerable to AoE attacks. And if my opponent doesn't use AoE, or the map doesn't have a chokepoint, then it was the lack of a chokepoint that did me in. Also the height difference. One side of the map was clearly higher than the other, and either my opponent was raining death from above upon me, or else I was trapped on a narrow ledge while my opponent dominated the low valley. And if the map was perfectly symmetrical, then my opponent was unfairly able to harness the fairness of the map to beat me.

Further, I would like to complain that Damage is too overpowered. Too many teams win games because they are better able to reduce the other team's HP to 0. When is the last time we had a team that won by inflicting Vampire on everyone, or by Inviting everyone, or by crystalizing Ramza. Clearly the current rules favor death by damage. This has led to our current Semi-Paper/Rock/Scissors  setup up, being that teams that win by reducing HPs to 0 are Granite, and teams that  rely on Petrify/Vampire/Invite/Ramza/DEB are plastic kindergarten scissors. Also, there is no paper in this example.

I propose we need more paper.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dol on April 13, 2012, 11:55:59 am
Quote from: Fanatic on April 13, 2012, 11:07:16 am

Oh, I misunderstood the purpose of this thread. I thought it was for constructive criticism and brainstorming of possible future rule changes in response to the exhibitions that are going on right now, as well as the comments and predictions concering how issues will effect the future tournament. But I understand this topic is actually for complaints about why we lost? Okay, I'm cool with that.

In that case, I would like to complain about the reason I lost this recent tournament: Maps. When I played my first match against whoever that will be, I was placed on a map that put me at a disadvantage. The map's chokepoint left me vulnerable to AoE attacks. And if my opponent doesn't use AoE, or the map doesn't have a chokepoint, then it was the lack of a chokepoint that did me in. Also the height difference. One side of the map was clearly higher than the other, and either my opponent was raining death from above upon me, or else I was trapped on a narrow ledge while my opponent dominated the low valley. And if the map was perfectly symmetrical, then my opponent was unfairly able to harness the fairness of the map to beat me.

Further, I would like to complain that Damage is too overpowered. Too many teams win games because they are better able to reduce the other team's HP to 0. When is the last time we had a team that won by inflicting Vampire on everyone, or by Inviting everyone, or by crystalizing Ramza. Clearly the current rules favor death by damage. This has led to our current Semi-Paper/Rock/Scissors  setup up, being that teams that win by reducing HPs to 0 are Granite, and teams that  rely on Petrify/Vampire/Invite/Ramza/DEB are plastic kindergarten scissors. Also, there is no paper in this example.

I propose we need more paper.



I am scissors.  Paper is fine, nerf rock.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 15, 2012, 05:44:45 pm
People have been saying Wizard has no unique role among the mage classes.  Thus, I suggest that wizard gain elemental neutralization (i.e. weak/halve: all elements) so wizard would have a unique role as the carrier of things like Light Robe or Undead Ring.  If that isn't enough, we can also consider giving wizard null: silence and berserk.  To make wizard spells more attractive, I think we should change the Tier 1 spells so that:

1) Fire1 +33% Oil
Bolt1 +33% Don't Move
Ice1 +33% Slow
2) Make the Tier2 spells take UnFury as their multiplier, but M-EV and shell as the means to block damage.

I think Tsumakuzu should be (FoeSPD + FoeMOV) * 12 at 100% Remove Haste
I'm only saying this because 100% Remove Haste doesn't adequately punish teams that run SPD domination.  Plus, if you're tripping someone, it would stand to reason that their mobility is used against them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: SoySauceMaster on April 15, 2012, 07:00:02 pm
So, the solution to balancing classes is to just add procs to existing abilities? Mages simply lack the tools. Why do Scholars and Summoners get more elemental types? Why do Ninjas and Samurai get elemental abilities? It's the same problem with ailments; the abilities need to be more exclusive to the classes they're intended for. It's why Mediators are broken; no charge-time *OR* MP cost.

What I'm seeing, right now, is that a pure melee team can't even compete, because of all the damn procs and AoE.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 15, 2012, 07:20:36 pm
Quote
It's the same problem with ailments; the abilities need to be more exclusive to the classes they're intended for.


Can you give an example of what you would like to see?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: SoySauceMaster on April 17, 2012, 05:57:19 pm
Giving every class a passive ability, that only benefits the abilities of the class, is a start. That would discourage exploitation of stacking effects of abilities from other classes. But, for that to happen, some nerfing needs to be done; especially to Mediators, Summoners, and Ninjas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 17, 2012, 07:35:18 pm
To be honest, I don't like your suggestion because it takes away the ability to mix and match skillsets and abilities to make a very powerful overall unit.  FFT team-making is more fun (and the metagame less predictable) when hybrid job classes are stronger than units specifically built for one purpose.  If you look back to the previous AI tournaments (S3/4/5), the winners weren't teams that maximized defense or offense, but teams whose main offensive units were hybrids between offense/status and healing.  In other words, to answer your question, a pure melee team, just like a pure defense/status team, or a pure magic team, SHOULD NOT be the best team of the metagame.
Thus, there should exist abilities that disproportionately punish teams that try to put all their eggs in one basket.  These abilities should be "relatively comfortable" to use in the sense that one isn't forced into an equally extreme setup (otherwise known as the rock-paper-scissors effect).

Right now, the only current means of turning high SPD into a weakness is to use 8/9 SPD units with Jump, but this runs into a host of problems.  Not only are such teams locked at such low SPD, they usually have to devote much of the entire squad to evasion tanking to compensate for the opponent's double attacks.  Also, if the SPD squad can boost their speed, it still may be for naught.  This is why I proposed that Ninja skill; it would allow squads that aren't specially built for jump to deliver far more exacting counterattacks to fast units (who usually are pretty squishy).
Similarly, there's no means to punish 40 fury (which isn't really a downside if your team doesn't use melee to begin with).  This is why I proposed those changes to Tier 2 Wizard spells; one or two 40/70 wizards with it could feasibly take down an entire squad with 40 fury.

You are right, of course, for saying that this itself does not boost the Wizard class, which is overshadowed by Summoner (more MP/versatile), scholar (better equips/MA), oracle (more HP), or bard (better MA/HP).  This is why I propose wizard gain Null: Silence/Berserk; this way, Wizards can use their equipment advantage to even out their slight MA deficiency.

My boosts to the Tier 1 spells was mostly so Wizard would be on par with Scholar's Bio1, but I can understand leaving them unchanged as well.  Those were made simply to encourage the use of status effects little used in the metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 19, 2012, 05:52:50 pm
I know none of this will be considered for the Tourney, but I've got a few suggestions anyway.

First, why does Mediator's "Blackmail" use the "Invitation" graphic? It even plays the Invite fanfare upon success. It's purely cosmetic though; functionality is just fine.

Second, should "Faith Up" really be triggering when a unit is healed?

Third, the potion system has become a really convoluted version of its original self. Potion getting cut... actually that makes perfect sense in the context of Arena. I'd say Hi-Potion is the most controversial change. In a lot of instances, it is actually more powerful than X-Potion now. And Auto Potion seems just a little too high. 80 healing is a bit much for a reaction. Consider the average Damage Split nowadays in comparison. This is just my opinion and you're all welcome to dismiss it, but I think Hi-Potion should do a flat 85 for 150jp, leave X-Potion as it is now for 200jp, and put Auto Potion at 60 healing...maybe 70...or possibly percentage based, but something in the range of 20-30%.

Fifth, Magic Guns seem a bit too powerful. Not only do you get instant magic for no MP (at a bit of a gamble, concerning which Tier), but you also get 100% accuracy. Why waste JP teaching your Wizard spells that the enemies can block with an Aegis Shield when you could just put that JP into Equip Ranged? I think the magic guns should be subject to magic evasion.

And sixth, mages are a bit overpowered right now. I think they've been given one or two buffs too many.

Tier 1/2 spells with the AoE of an average Draw Out? Seems excessive. Maybe save that for Tier 3 only. And speaking of excessive, the extended range. Maybe on the lower spells, but on Flare/Holy, it's too much. There's little to no penalty on the powerful spells and even less penalty on loading a mage up with MA gear. There's nothing wrong with loading a mage with MA gear, but there should be some kind of trade-off. 6 range Flare/Holy makes MA gear the easy choice. If they want that kind of reach, they should have to swap the Magic Gauntlet for Germinas Boots. Or make a choice between spending their JP on Magic Attack Up or spending it on Move +1. Currently, who needs move when you can reach the enemy from halfway across most maps anyway?

And if they want to deal that kind of lethal damage, they should at least have to stand kind of close-ish to the unit they're about to OHKO. With MA gear, even the average low faith unit doesn't have much hope. I'm fine with the idea of making a mage that powerful, but I should be giving something up in exchange for that power. I don't feel the crunch of a low move stat if I can reach everything I want to hit anyway. I don't feel the pain of low HP if nobody ever gets in melee range. Nerfing the magic range seems like the natural choice to me, but perhaps JP, CT, or MP cost could be effective alternatives.

Priests and Wizards as they are now are just begging to be loaded with MA gear and nothing else. The choice should be at least vaguely difficult. As is, a mage with full MA gear and semi-competent allies can take on almost any team. Twin Samurai even have trouble with it, only winning about a third of the time. And who wants to watch a tournament where a bunch of twin Samurai teams fight a bunch of MA-loaded mage teams?

Don't get me wrong, the MA mage teams I've been using for tests are extremely well-designed (I didn't design them). The MA-loaded mages are just one piece of a team and (probably) couldn't win on their own. It's just that those teams would have a significantly slimmer chance for victory if they weren't packing a 6-range, 100% accuracy, nuclear bomb. Lowering the range would at least come slightly closer to making an even playing field. At minimum, I really think that Flare and Holy should be nerfed to 5. Personally, I'd also recommend that Tier 1/2 spells go back to their old AoE, leaving the larger AoE for Tier 3 (that kind of power should cost a little JP).

Again this is all just my opinion. And I may have some bias owing to the fact my own team is getting rolled over by some of the things I've mentioned. I'd be interested to hear other viewpoints.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 19, 2012, 08:43:12 pm
Fantactic, which teams did you test against?  Your descriptions of the metagame seem 180 degrees apart from the experiences of virtually every other person here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 19, 2012, 09:34:51 pm
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 15, 2012, 05:44:45 pm
People have been saying Wizard has no unique role among the mage classes.


I think their skill set needs to be pruned.  They currently have twelve spells which are all halved by a single piece of equipment (venetian shield or white robe).  Reduce the four tiers into two and introduce three new elements for a total of six two-tier sets.  If we also add corresponding elemental absorption to the underused accessories I mentioned before (defense ring, defense armlet, et cetera), then these accessories can be used together with Black Magic in a variety of absorption strategies.  If we add status effects to the spells, too, then I suggest each accessory both absorbs the element and nullifies the status of the corresponding spell.

Quote from: formerdeathcorpsRight now, the only current means of turning high SPD into a weakness is to use 8/9 SPD units with Jump, but this runs into a host of problems.  Not only are such teams locked at such low SPD, they usually have to devote much of the entire squad to evasion tanking to compensate for the opponent's double attacks.  Also, if the SPD squad can boost their speed, it still may be for naught.  This is why I proposed that Ninja skill; it would allow squads that aren't specially built for jump to deliver far more exacting counterattacks to fast units (who usually are pretty squishy).


Why must SPD be turned into a weakness?  I would think that trading solid equipment for speed is enough of a sacrifice.   They're squishy indeed.

Quote from: Fantactic1316Priests and Wizards as they are now are just begging to be loaded with MA gear and nothing else.


Then they're begging for a taste of their own medicine.  MA-stacked units have no elemental absorption to resist wizards or evasion to resist time mages and oracles.  At 8 SPD, they're also slow.  You need to build a team around keeping these units in working condition, which I think is all fine and well, personally.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 20, 2012, 03:26:29 am
Quote from: Gaignun on April 19, 2012, 09:34:51 pm
Then they're begging for a taste of their own medicine.  MA-stacked units have no elemental absorption to resist wizards or evasion to resist time mages and oracles.  At 8 SPD, they're also slow.  You need to build a team around keeping these units in working condition, which I think is all fine and well, personally.


Eh. Point acknowledged. They are begging for a taste of their own medicine. Don't bring a Knight to a mage fight, I suppose. There's a case to be made in saying that the mage team is well-designed, but I still feel like Holy and Flare are just one panel too powerful. I still think a team is a bit too strong if the only thing that can overcome it is itself.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 19, 2012, 08:43:12 pm
Fantactic, which teams did you test against?  Your descriptions of the metagame seem 180 degrees apart from the experiences of virtually every other person here.


180 degrees? Virtually everyone? Well damn, maybe I'm just shitty at team building then. Seriously though? No one else has ever watched their long-thought-out team get repeatedly killed by a mage with full MA gear?

I put my teams (a few variations on my Tourney team, as well as some completely different builds) up against a few teams from the first page of the submission thread.

One was CT5Holy's "Holy Stones" team. That team is incredibly well-designed and I respect the ownage there. Though I do still feel it's slightly cheap that I got owned from 6 panels away. If it had been 5, it would have at least seemed like my team had put up a fight. The 6 panel range made them look a lot more pathetic than they are, but I don't think my current build could beat that Holy Stones, even if it were nerfed to 1 range. The skills of the four units all interlock in a beautiful sort of synergy that is very difficult to beat. Holy Stones is a tactical masterpiece.

Another team was Team Rellia, which also features an MA heavy mage. The other units are formidable in their own right, but they don't support each other quite as effectively as Holy Stones does. I'm convinced that my team could (emphasis: could) win if they'd just get close enough to take out that Wizard.

With both teams, my units consistently get OHKO'd from six panels away. And only two of my units are mid-to-high faith squishies. All four of them are capable of at least some range. One of them has only 50 Faith, armor, and bad compat with Team Rellia's mage, but he still got OHKO'd. The fact that he got OHKO'd says "well-designed mage". The fact that it happened from so far away is what gets under my skin. If that mage wants to OHKO my units, it should at least have to step into the average Longbow/Earth Slash/Kikuichimoji/Elemental range.

Is a 5 range, 100% accuracy, high damage attack not good enough? Does it really have to be 6? It seems unbalanced to me. But then again, maybe I'm just not doing a good enough job on my end of things. I could probably design a team specifically built to beat Team Rellia and Holy Stones, but then they'd be weak in other areas. I suppose that's the dilemma with most team building though.

Bottom Line: Holy and Flare out-range most other ranged attacks, have the accuracy of guns, and (with the right gear) deal greater damage than any other ranged attack, OHKO'ing nearly anything that isn't a full-on tank. The MP cost is a slight deterrent, but ultimately a pittance compared to a mage's total MP. It does nothing to prevent spamming. The JP cost is relatively high, but leaves a Priest with Holy enough remaining JP to add Cure 2, Raise, Magic Attack Up, Move-MP Up, and still have 470 left over. And because of its range, MA gear becomes the easy choice. You stand far enough away to avoid most hits (and even several ranged attacks) so you don't need high HP, and you can attack from far enough away that there's no need to boost your move stat. Show me another class that can OHKO a bad compat, armored unit from six panels away with 100% accuracy.

All told though, I don't think mages are *radically* overpowered. The mage class does trade away quite a lot in order to obtain their power. I just think that their most lethal attack has one panel too many to still consider them to be a fair and balanced opponent.

(Addendum: After tweaking a weak link in my team, they were able to beat Team Rellia two times out of three. They even beat my devilishly cheap, nearly invincible twin Samurai team on their fourth attempt. However, they still failed against Holy Stones seven times in a row. They would probably still fail even if Holy only had 5 range...which is my point. Mages don't *need* 6 range to beat the ever-loving shit out of you, they can do it in 5. The fact that they can do it in 5, but have 6, is what makes me say they're slightly overpowered.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 21, 2012, 02:57:11 am
If charging units bother you that much, you could run a mage with 8 SPD, short charge + don't act, silence song / sinkhole (without short charge) as the last unit of your team.  Similarly, you can run a fast unit with bizen boat, refute, or throw stone.
An HP setup gunner with MATKUP + elemental absorb + 70 faith is also a good idea.

Also, what's the average speed of your team?  Do you have haste2/masamune?  Are you always testing on the same map?  It seems to me that the squads you tested against are consistently getting first strike and flattening your units.  Instead of making your units tougher, why not make them faster or offer some bait?  It sounds counterintuitive, but if your squad is really slow, having any resurrection other than Raise2 may actually set your squad behind in constantly healing wounded units.

Quote
The JP cost is relatively high, but leaves a Priest with Holy enough remaining JP to add Cure 2, Raise, Magic Attack Up, Move-MP Up, and still have 470 left over

Isn't the leftover 750 JP?
Unlocked Jobs: 750 JP
R/S/M: 900 JP
Skills: 600 JP
Also, most people would buy Cure3, Raise2, and Esuna.  That's 430 more JP to spend, leaving you with 320 JP.  320 JP is good only for Black Magic or Yin Yang Magic.  Considering this unit is a midcharge risk and a pure MA/MP/strengthen setup has crap (~230) HP running 40/70 stats with no reaction, you can easily 2HKO (maybe even 1HKO) this unit with melee ranged attackers.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 21, 2012, 06:38:27 pm
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 21, 2012, 02:57:11 am
Also, what's the average speed of your team?  Do you have haste2/masamune?  Are you always testing on the same map?  It seems to me that the squads you tested against are consistently getting first strike and flattening your units.  Instead of making your units tougher, why not make them faster or offer some bait?  It sounds counterintuitive, but if your squad is really slow, having any resurrection other than Raise2 may actually set your squad behind in constantly healing wounded units.
Isn't the leftover 750 JP?
Unlocked Jobs: 750 JP
R/S/M: 900 JP
Skills: 600 JP
Also, most people would buy Cure3, Raise2, and Esuna.  That's 430 more JP to spend, leaving you with 320 JP.  320 JP is good only for Black Magic or Yin Yang Magic.  Considering this unit is a midcharge risk and a pure MA/MP/strengthen setup has crap (~230) HP running 40/70 stats with no reaction, you can easily 2HKO (maybe even 1HKO) this unit with melee ranged attackers.


My team does suffer a bit of a speed disadvantage (two 9's, an 8, and a 10). For range, the latest build I've been testing has got Wave Fist, Earth Slash, Geomancy, a Crossbow, and a Magic Gun. I'm not denying that Holy Stones has me completely outclassed - they do. I just think that 6 range Holy is unnecessary to an effective mage. A well-designed mage doesn't need that extra power, but they still have it.

My squad does have Short Charge Raise 2 on one unit, but there's no hope of accomplishing much with it. If my Raise 2 unit gets close enough to res, then Holy (with 3 move and 6 range, an effective 9) will more than likely find my 55 Faith, neutral compat, 309hp, res unit and OHKO her before the next turn...assuming she doesn't get mid-charged by one of the other units or Petrified by the effective 100 Faith Oracle. And Raise 2 hardly makes a difference against an OHKO unit like Holy the Priest. My units can be raised with ~300+ or they can be PD'd with 11, they're still dying in the next round. And god forbid my tank gets smacked with that damn 100% Add Faith Katana. (100%? Really? On something like a staff I'd understand, but something that's an effective weapon by itself, gets an additional buff of a 100% chance to add status? Really?) Anywho, I've gone off on a tangent now.

As for the JP totals, I forgot to scroll down on the spreadsheet I was looking at. Holy the Priest does have Esuna as well.

She's an effective sand bag, *and* an effective nuclear bomb, *and* she has the accuracy of concentrate, *and* she has almost 300 hp, *and* she has the range of a gun. Among *all* of that power, I think that she should lose *one* panel of her range.

All told, she has 290 hp, 14 ma (plus MAtkUp), and good compat with only one of my four units. (She could have even more MA, but for some incalculable reason, she's got a staff with 50% cast Dia instead of one with MA on it. She never uses the staff though.) I don't really have a problem with the fact that she can OHKO most of my team. I just think the range is too much, when added to that kind of power.

I have zero issue with the mage class's power. These magic units are well-designed, and have to trade certain strategic advantages to get that power. There are ways to defend against magic and my team is obviously weak against it. That's all good design on the opposing team's end, meeting with flawed design on my end. My only issue is with the range. Personally, I think that if an offensive mage can't fight effectively with five range, then that mage just isn't well-designed. I feel certain that both of the teams I tested against would still be super effective with only 5 range.

Things that have the same range as Holy/Flare:

1) Guns
2) ONE of the Longbows
3) Lancer's Level Jump 6 skill

And that's it.

Now then, on to today's list of complaints.

1) Dances and Talk Skills should trigger reactions if they connect. (Or maybe they do and I'm just extremely unlucky with the RNG. If they don't they should.)

If Dancers are going to drop stats so heavily, I should at least have the *chance* (assuming that I have an appropriate reaction equipped and the RNG favors me, based on my Faith and Fury) to fight back. To gain 20CT when I lose a point of Speed. To gain 5 Fury when I lose a point of PA. To gain 5 Faith when I lose a point of MA. If an Iron Boots Dancer (or two) wants to drop my team to 1 speed, I should at least be able to deal heavy damage from PA/MA save, on the off-chance that I  even get a turn. And if a Mediator wants to Death Sentence me at the flip of a coin, I should at least get a Counter Flood out of it. Or a Regenerator. Or a point of PA/MA so I that I can *try* (against the Iron Boots and Unyielding) to fuck them up on those two turns they spend ignoring me.

... Yes, I tried to test my teams against Y U SO DERP.

The current build of my Tourney team never had a chance and I respect the ownage. My Samurai team (after some tweaks to their support units...see also: Finger Guard) won one of three matches. The other two matches went on for about two hours each. Yep. Two hours of watching twin Samurai get slowly rolled over by twin Dancers...and failing to react as their Speed, PA, MA, and MP were reduced into nothingness.

2) This might actually fall into the "bug" category. With Magic Guns, I was noticing that the targeting window was showing a number like 42, but then the actual damage (from a Tier 1 spell, mind you) was somewhere around 60. Thinking on it, the units being targeted did have Unyielding for support. I'm assuming the damage was supposed to be 42 with Unyielding, but that the Magic Guns somehow ignored it...which they're probably not supposed to do. Regardless, if it's more than just a graphical glitch, if the AI has inaccurate information about how much damage it will do, it might act differently and that's a definite issue.

Similarly, are items supposed to bypass Unyielding? Should Hi-Potion still be doing 40% of Max HP healing on a unit that's supposed to take 20% less healing? Just wondering if that's intentional or not.

3) I stand by my previous assertion that 40% is too high for Hi-Potion. 35% might be more reasonable. And I still think 80 healing is too much for a reaction (Auto Potion). Perhaps it could be 40% of the damage received (slightly better than Damage Split for healing, but at the cost of not dealing damage to the enemy unit).

4) I hate to bite the hand that feeds me, but Stigma Magic and Chakra. They get range AND AoE? Even though they have zero vert, this seems a bit much. Either range or AoE would be nice, but both just makes Punch Art units a little too healing-centered. Personally, I liked the original versions of these two skills. No range, but AoE at 0 vert.

These are all just my opinions though. It's obvious that a lot of time and effort goes into  deciding what to buff, what to nerf, and what to remove. If I'm the only one who thinks these things, then there's a good chance that it's all errant nonsense.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 21, 2012, 07:13:08 pm
We tried 35% Hi-Potion before. Wasn't doing enough. Currently, both X-Potion and Hi-Potion are used frequently, and X-Potion costs a bit less JP to compensate for Hi-Potion being a bit better.

Chakra and Stigma Magic went through a similar evolution. It went from original, 1 AoE centered around self, to 2 range single target, to its current form. Single target made it pretty meh, but the range was nice, so we gave it the current AoE. And it's fine.

And magic pre-range buff? Far from impressive. Magic is a threat, and is actually being used now. I think that's good.

Auto Potion and Absorb MP trigger against Dances (Wiznaibus for AP). Faith Up also triggers. The Stat Save reactions trigger from HP Damage. It'd be pretty nuts if it triggered off everything. Also, the stat reduction dances have had their success rate lowered from 50% to 40%. I hardly consider them dropping stats "heavily." You basically need an incredibly defensive setup like Raven has to make it work.

Also, keep in mind that it's basically impossible to stop every single setup out there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 02:18:45 am
Quote from: CT5Holy on April 21, 2012, 07:13:08 pm
We tried 35% Hi-Potion before. Wasn't doing enough. Currently, both X-Potion and Hi-Potion are used frequently, and X-Potion costs a bit less JP to compensate for Hi-Potion being a bit better.

Chakra and Stigma Magic went through a similar evolution. It went from original, 1 AoE centered around self, to 2 range single target, to its current form. Single target made it pretty meh, but the range was nice, so we gave it the current AoE. And it's fine.

And magic pre-range buff? Far from impressive. Magic is a threat, and is actually being used now. I think that's good.

Auto Potion and Absorb MP trigger against Dances (Wiznaibus for AP). Faith Up also triggers. The Stat Save reactions trigger from HP Damage. It'd be pretty nuts if it triggered off everything. Also, the stat reduction dances have had their success rate lowered from 50% to 40%. I hardly consider them dropping stats "heavily." You basically need an incredibly defensive setup like Raven has to make it work.

Also, keep in mind that it's basically impossible to stop every single setup out there.


If 35% Hi-Potion wasn't doing enough, couldn't people have just put their JP toward X-Potion? Maybe I'm just being too picky about it because it's beating me, but nerfing X-Potion while buffing Hi-Potion just seems counterproductive. They do both have their strengths and weaknesses in their current incarnation though, which is the beauty of FFT, so I guess I don't have too much room to complain.

Chakra and Stigma Magic...yeah that's probably just my personal preference, then.

Are there videos of this "far from impressive" magic? I haven't exactly been frequenting Hacktics and keeping up with all the version changes. I find it hard to imagine a well-built mage team causing anything short of utter destruction though, even with 5-range Holy. I could be wrong though. I'm sure most of the people on this forum are probably more familiar with the ins-and-outs of the Arena patch than I am. I've been watching the Tournament videos on Youtube for years now, but only recently have I been actually playing around with the metagame.

It would be kind of nuts if the stat saves triggered on everything. (I'm remembering an old match where twin Wiznaibus met up with two speed save units.) However, I think a dance that drops a stat, if it connects, should still trigger a chance to save a different stat (or the same stat). From my view, what makes a team like Raven's so invincible (apart from the fact that they can tank and heal like nobody's business...and the fact that Raven knows the AI well enough to limit the Dancers) is the fact that hardly anything they do triggers reactions...and certainly none of the really good reactions. It'd be nice if they triggered stat saves, though admittedly that could cause a few complications. It would also be nice if they triggered Counter Magic. And do the Talk Skills trigger anything apart from Finger Guard?

And yeah, rock-paper-scissors, I know. I do need to keep that in mind. My main team beats my twin Samurai team, which can beat the MA mage teams, which can beat my main team. Pretty much textbook rock-paper-scissors. I am learning a lot from repeatedly getting my ass kicked though. And just from running test matches in general really. It's sometimes hard to see a team's strengths and weaknesses on paper. "Two Chemists and two Dancers," I said to myself. "Pfft, I can take that!" Should've known it was called "The Brick Wall" for a reason. Apparently I am very derp. I'm just glad that I decided to run these matches on my own computer and not post up my teams in the submission thread without testing them, thus allowing everyone else to watch the foolishness that inevitably occurs while attempting to design a decent team.

I can still make changes to my Tourney team if I get them in before April 28th, right? The build I originally submitted is infinitely weaker than the one I'm testing now...and I'm still fine-tuning the test build.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 05:34:30 pm
Martial Arts doesn't affect Punch Art skills??
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 22, 2012, 05:40:57 pm
I'm pretty sure that it does...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 06:00:14 pm
Might be an issue with the team builder spreadsheet then. Guess I'll have to fire up a match to know for sure.

EDIT: Yep, that's it. It wasn't affecting the damage output on the simulator spreadsheet, but it does work in game.

EDIT2: I'm an idiot. Changed the value of the ability, but not the modifier.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 22, 2012, 07:11:20 pm
Which version of the spreadsheet are you using?  Martial Arts should be modifying punch art skills in v1.01.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 22, 2012, 07:48:17 pm
See my second edit. I was just using it wrong. I was adding and removing the Monk skill, but not changing the value on the modifier. The simulation only applies the effect to damage output if the modifier is set.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 05:17:42 pm
Me again, back for more whining. You guys sick of me yet?

Geomancers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to have had nerfs to both their damage output *and* their range. (It's the *and* that bothers me most.) My 14 MA Geo only does ~50 damage to most units. I'd actually be okay with that if she had 5 range. As is she only has 4, and she's expected to compete against 5-6 range priests/wizards, and 5 range oracles. I think Geos have had one nerf too many.

Unyielding/Overwhelm. I don't like them. Well, not so much I don't like them as I think they're redundant. We already have supports skills like Attack Up, Magic Attack Up, Defense Up, and Magic Defend Up. We also have Fury, Faith, and Compatibility for increasing/decreasing the damage you give and receive. At least Unyielding is balanced by lower healing, but Overwhelm doesn't seem to have any drawback to it at all. You just get to raise your unit's effective stats...and we already have skills for that.

Lastly, does Silence stop Chakra and Revive or is my Monk just an idiot?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: TrueLight on April 23, 2012, 06:17:52 pm
Quote from: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 05:17:42 pm
Geomancers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem to have had nerfs to both their damage output *and* their range. (It's the *and* that bothers me most.) My 14 MA Geo only does ~50 damage to most units. I'd actually be okay with that if she had 5 range. As is she only has 4, and she's expected to compete against 5-6 range priests/wizards, and 5 range oracles. I think Geos have had one nerf too many.


The damage formula for elemental is actually based on PA and Ma (mostly PA). Your Geo needs a balanced of the two to do decent damage. Something on the line of Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Twist Headband (Golden Hairpin)/ Power Sleeve/Diamond Armlet + Magic Attack Up will greatly improve the damage. The range of Elemental if fine. 100 percent accuracy and a chance to cause status is very good and giving it more range will just make it OP.

Quote from: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 05:17:42 pm
Lastly, does Silence stop Chakra and Revive or is my Monk just an idiot?


Your Monk is an idiot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 06:34:07 pm
Quote from: TrueLight on April 23, 2012, 06:17:52 pm
The damage formula for elemental is actually based on PA and Ma (mostly PA). Your Geo needs a balanced of the two to do decent damage. Something on the line of Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Twist Headband (Golden Hairpin)/ Power Sleeve/Diamond Armlet + Magic Attack Up will greatly improve the damage. The range of Elemental if fine. 100 percent accuracy and a chance to cause status is very good and giving it more range will just make it OP.


Okay, so I can power up my Geo with gear. But an Oracle can inflict status at a higher rate from longer range. A Priest with Holy and MA gear can do ungodly damage (far more than even a well-equipped Geomancer) at 100% accuracy and outranges the Geo by 2 panels. A Wizard could conceivably attack from an effective 7 range with AoE, while a Geo can only hope for an effective 5 at best, assuming that the target happens to be on level ground. I maintain that Geos can't really effectively compete against their counterparts.

ETA: I wouldn't object to Geomancy becoming subject to Magic Evasion.

Quote from: TrueLight on April 23, 2012, 06:17:52 pm
Your Monk is an idiot.


Fair enough. Guess I'll have to think about limiting his choices.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 23, 2012, 06:44:34 pm
I kinda sorta agree with Fantactic on Holy (but not Flare). In and of itself, it isn't an unbalanced skill, but IMO it makes the White Magic set OP. I mean, just with White Magic alone you can be a walking artillery piece with Holy, a good buffer with Protect/Shell2, a rezzer with Raise 2, and the best healer in the game with Cure 4. I think that Holy should get a slight debuff so that it still does 100-150 damage on a well built mage, but not much more than that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 23, 2012, 06:49:32 pm
I actually wouldn't mind seeing Geomancy range back to 5 again. It's hardly used nowadays, and the only way to get decent damage is to fully optimize for it.

Geomancy should not be subject to magic evasion, since one of it's saving graces is that it's 100% hit.

Unrelated note, but Bio 2 and 3 JP costs could be lowered a bit IMO.

What do people think about Songs/Dances down to 150 JP?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 07:20:42 pm
The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.  You shouldn't have Cure and Protect2 at the same time because neither will be used reliably in the presence of the other.  Regen is even worse; it has the same AI priority as healing HP.  You similarly shouldn't have Protect2 and Shell2 because the AI isn't very good at judging the nature of the opponent's attacks (and may use Shell against a physically oriented team).  Wall's minimal AoE makes it good, but not great.  Re-raise < Raise1/2.  Cure4 isn't AoE and pales before murasame or transfusion's AoE effect.  It's only good on teams that use reflect on their own men.  Cure3 is about equal to murasame or transfusion.

Just White Magic alone, however, lacks variety on offense.  Yes, turbo-charged holy does lots of damage to a variety of HP, power, or Speed optimized units, but those aren't the only optimizations in the metagame.  Teams that use shell/MADEF, unyielding, reflect, or absorb/null will have an easy time surviving (1HKOs).  If their counter reply is Short Charged Don't Act (which is 100% at 70+ Faith), a fast unit with Bizen Boat, or Threaten, your white mage (who is also your anti-status unit) is now incapacitated.  The range issue becomes irrelevant when you don't have a 1HKO.  Nobody said you had to run above 40 faith or stuff your units full of one stat.

Quote
ETA: I wouldn't object to Geomancy becoming subject to Magic Evasion.

If we're talking about strengthening Geomancy, I don't see why this is also being brought up.  To be honest, geomancy is only a good damage option on a specialized MA setup (which necessitates something like thief or mediator as the secondary), but I know that a good majority of the metagamers on here would object to my suggestion of returning to vanilla's procs (i.e. stop on hell ivy, don't act on kamaitachi, sleep on demon fire, etc.).

Quote
Unyielding/Overwhelm. I don't like them. Well, not so much I don't like them as I think they're redundant. We already have supports skills like Attack Up, Magic Attack Up, Defense Up, and Magic Defend Up. We also have Fury, Faith, and Compatibility for increasing/decreasing the damage you give and receive. At least Unyielding is balanced by lower healing, but Overwhelm doesn't seem to have any drawback to it at all. You just get to raise your unit's effective stats...and we already have skills for that.

Overwhelm boosts spells and physicals.  This is extremely useful if you have draw out and an MA dependent weapon.  Then you get to boost everything by 20%.  This includes things like Murasame and Transfusion (which aren't boostable any other way).  Also, this 20% is to final damage so you don't have round down issues like you do with ATKUP.  On the whole, Unyielding is a bit more common because not many units have that dual attack option.

CT5Holy, the only songs not worth 200 JP are the HP ones.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 23, 2012, 07:59:55 pm
Returning to standard procs doesn't really do much for the Elemental skillset, since it's still at a low proc rate on a low damaging move that requires specialization to make the most of it. It would buff counter flood considerably, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 08:40:07 pm
Quote from: dacheat on April 23, 2012, 06:44:34 pm
I think that Holy should get a slight debuff so that it still does 100-150 damage on a well built mage, but not much more than that.


Sounds a bit severe to me. Most of the MA boosting gear has the lowest HP increases and has no positive status effects attached. An optimized offensive mage really does have to give up certain strategic advantages to raise their damage output. Although I remain, as ever, an advocate for dropping Holy's range to 5.

Quote from: CT5Holy on April 23, 2012, 06:49:32 pm
I actually wouldn't mind seeing Geomancy range back to 5 again. It's hardly used nowadays, and the only way to get decent damage is to fully optimize for it.

Geomancy should not be subject to magic evasion, since one of it's saving graces is that it's 100% hit.


I'd take 5 range evade-able Geomancy over 4 range concentrated Geomancy.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 07:20:42 pm
The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.


Maybe not, but you can still put a lot onto one unit. It's easy to have an optimized MAtkUp Holy Priest with Cure 2, Raise, and Esuna. The MA setup makes both Holy can Cure more effective, she can raise, and she can heal status too.

Good points though about ways to defend against such a mage or to turn the high Faith against them. And as previously mentioned, the MA gear leaves them squishy and susceptible to status. However, that only counts if you have a unit that can reach the Priest with that 6 range advantage.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 07:20:42 pm
I know that a good majority of the metagamers on here would object to my suggestion of returning to vanilla's procs (i.e. stop on hell ivy, don't act on kamaitachi, sleep on demon fire, etc.).


You've got my vote.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 07:20:42 pm
Overwhelm boosts spells and physicals.  This is extremely useful if you have draw out and an MA dependent weapon.  Then you get to boost everything by 20%.  This includes things like Murasame and Transfusion (which aren't boostable any other way).


That makes some sense, but skills like Murasame can be boosted by straight MA and MAtkUp support. (Though I'm not sure what the formula is for Transfusion.) For Draw Outs, MAtkUp is effectively the same thing as Overwhelm. Does a Samurai need a boost to both two-handed death and 2 range AoE at the same time? The AI would probably have trouble picking between them anyway. And if you need to raise both stats, you could always use MAtkUp for skill and PA on the gear for a unit that's balanced in both areas.

I still think Overwhelm is redundant, and I'm still not really seeing a drawback to it. I'd like it better if it worked like Fury/Faith, meaning you give more damage but you also take more damage. Even if it were something like "Increases physical/magical damage dealt by 20%, but increases physical/magical damage received by 10%". That could be the trade-off for getting to boost both stats at once.

That's my two cents.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 23, 2012, 09:15:26 pm
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 07:20:42 pm
The White Magic set isn't OP because you can't use all those spells at once.  You shouldn't have Cure and Protect2 at the same time because neither will be used reliably in the presence of the other.  Regen is even worse; it has the same AI priority as healing HP.  You similarly shouldn't have Protect2 and Shell2 because the AI isn't very good at judging the nature of the opponent's attacks (and may use Shell against a physically oriented team).  Wall's minimal AoE makes it good, but not great.  Re-raise < Raise1/2.  Cure4 isn't AoE and pales before murasame or transfusion's AoE effect.  It's only good on teams that use reflect on their own men.  Cure3 is about equal to murasame or transfusion.


It's true that it can't do all of those things at once, but it can do all of those things over the course of a match. A unit that can nuke for heavy damage one turn, and then Raise 2 a unit the next is a bit OP IMO. A Priest can sandbag with the best of them, and then nuke the opponent hard when the team gets their legs back under them.

None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 07:20:42 pmJust White Magic alone, however, lacks variety on offense.  Yes, turbo-charged holy does lots of damage to a variety of HP, power, or Speed optimized units, but those aren't the only optimizations in the metagame.  Teams that use shell/MADEF, unyielding, reflect, or absorb/null will have an easy time surviving (1HKOs).


Yeah, they can survive the hits, but their team is put into sandbag mode almost immediately, and the defensive unit will probably be left until last since the AI usually targets the unit that it can do the most damage to.

Quote from: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 08:40:07 pm
Sounds a bit severe to me. Most of the MA boosting gear has the lowest HP increases and has no positive status effects attached. An optimized offensive mage really does have to give up certain strategic advantages to raise their damage output. Although I remain, as ever, an advocate for dropping Holy's range to 5.


I was just throwing out numbers haha. I didn't think super hard about it. Maybe change the formula from MA*16 to MA*13?

Quote from: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 08:40:07 pmIf their counter reply is Short Charged Don't Act (which is 100% at 70+ Faith), a fast unit with Bizen Boat, or Threaten, your white mage (who is also your anti-status unit) is now incapacitated.  The range issue becomes irrelevant when you don't have a 1HKO.  Nobody said you had to run above 40 faith or stuff your units full of one stat.


How often does the AI do that? It's like FDC's argument above about Protect/Shell not being used effectively by the AI. The AI doesn't recognize that it should berserk the mage because it only uses spells. Don't act might be used on it, but it's just as likely to be used on other units. It's probably more likely to be used on others since the Priest usually hangs back. You also don't take into account that a unit specced for speed will most likely be OHKOd by Holy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 23, 2012, 09:34:25 pm
Don't act will in all likeliness hit the mage, especially if she's already charging up Holy, because it would be 100% hit and effectively stop the Holy before it goes off.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on April 23, 2012, 09:41:19 pm
Quote from: AeroGP on April 23, 2012, 09:34:25 pm
Don't act will in all likeliness hit the mage, especially if she's already charging up Holy, because it would be 100% hit and effectively stop the Holy before it goes off.

Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.


I never said Holy was OP. I said that the White Magic set was OP. I was just suggesting that nerfing Holy is the easiest way to balance it. I agree that the Priest should have an average/above average offensive spell, but not a 6 range nuke.

Quote from: dacheatNone of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 23, 2012, 10:43:39 pm
Quote
How often does the AI do that? It's like FDC's argument above about Protect/Shell not being used effectively by the AI. The AI doesn't recognize that it should berserk the mage because it only uses spells. Don't act might be used on it, but it's just as likely to be used on other units. It's probably more likely to be used on others since the Priest usually hangs back. You also don't take into account that a unit specced for speed will most likely be OHKOd by Holy.

A charging unit will be priority targeted by the AI, especially by skills that can cancel the attack.  A unit hanging back at a distance of 6 can easily be stopped by a mediator because threaten/refute/mimic daravon have a range of 3.  Ditto with Short Charged Paralyze.  A fast unit would get 1HKO'd if and only if the spell goes off before his turn.  A 12+ SPD with haste would likely get that crucial intermediate turn unless the mage has short charge.  But if the mage has short charge, she's not pulling a 1HKO.  Similarly, if the holy is being directed at a unit behind my front lines because the AI can pull a 1HKO (but can't 1HKO my 370 HP samurai), my front-line samurai with haste is probably only at a distance of 4 from your holy user and can use bizen boat if she gets a turn.

Quote
Yeah, they can survive the hits, but their team is put into sandbag mode almost immediately, and the defensive unit will probably be left until last since the AI usually targets the unit that it can do the most damage to.

In many cases, that defensive unit is the one providing the healing.  Thus, the AI ignoring that unit because of his high HP total only helps him to his job of protecting his allies.  Also, if holy becomes a 2HKO on my non-defensive units, unless you wounded them to critical, they'll keep advancing as I heal myself off MHPUP, regen, or some healing reaction.  IN a case like that, holy simply becomes another weapon the volley of attacks from both sides.

Quote
It's true that it can't do all of those things at once, but it can do all of those things over the course of a match. A unit that can nuke for heavy damage one turn, and then Raise 2 a unit the next is a bit OP IMO. A Priest can sandbag with the best of them, and then nuke the opponent hard when the team gets their legs back under them.

For all the options available to you, you still shouldn't purchase them all.  You'll have the AI use protect when it should use cure and vice-versa.  That can cause your squad to lose tight matches; this advantage is double-edged.

Quote
Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.

Except as I just made clear, White Magic's offense is great but not too diverse.  Hence, overall, it's only above average.  It's comparable to draw out and summon in terms of usefulness.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on April 23, 2012, 11:03:44 pm
Geomancy is actually kinda of nice. Mathmatically, the best carrier class is the Bard, and you can set up a bard to do roughly 126 damage and still have an accessory slot free for shell, protect, 108 gems, or whatever you want to put there. You HP will be crap (250ish?), but with 40 brave, 60 faith, shell, and maybe something like counter flood, you can put up some very respectable numbers without being OHKOd.

I was actually thinking of running a team with two optimized bard/geos. I'd have to combine them with two healing units, but 126 damage counter flood would be pretty fun. Course, shell + autopotion would ruin my day, not to mention status effects can vary a bunch...

I'm with FDC on White Magic. White Magic is not OP. Utility is not OP. By that logic, Monk is OP, because Monks can 1) inflict an instant death status effect, 2) instantly cure most status ailments, 3) restore HP AND MPs to multiple units, 4) Revive dead units, 4) hit a wide area of effect, 5) strike with powerful unevadable single space attack.

I'll grant that White Magic is better at most of those things than Punchart (not status removing though). But White Magic is subject to charging, so without short charge, you run the risk of the dreaded mid charge attack. And assuming you're not rocking undead, all you have to do is slap on "cancel" or "absorb" holy, and white magic can't hurt you at all. True, you can sandbag pretty damn good with it, but if you are sandbagging, you aren't attacking. It may be counter intuitive, but from my personal (perhaps "limited") observation, a heavy sandbag team will probably lose to a team optimized for massive damage - optimized damage teams usually lose because they have team members taken out of the fight before they can let loose with all their power. This is precisely why status effect teams are so deadly - they can derail an offense from the get go.

I support things as they stand with white magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 23, 2012, 11:42:15 pm
Quote from: dacheat on April 23, 2012, 09:15:26 pm
I was just throwing out numbers haha. I didn't think super hard about it. Maybe change the formula from MA*16 to MA*13?


I think the formula's actually okay, personally.

It is just one offensive spell with one element. Pit Holy against a team with two Small Mantles and two Chameleon Robes and you're screwed. Although, that build would be pretty rare, at best.

Quote from: AeroGP on April 23, 2012, 09:34:25 pm
Holy is great, but you're both overrating how powerful it is in the current metagame.


Quote from: dacheat on April 23, 2012, 09:15:26 pm
None of these abilities by themselves are OP, but together in one skillset they're OP IMO. Name one other skillset that is as effective offensively and defensively when compared to White Magic.


Whereas I think Holy is OP by itself, but only because of the range. My challenge would be: Name one other skill or class that can deal over 300 damage at 100% accuracy from 6 panels away.

The Stone Gun (6 range, 100% accuracy) deals ~200 to units with ~55 Fury. The Magic Guns (again, 6 range, 100% accuracy) deal ~150 from a 70 Faith unit to a 100 Faith (Faith Rod) unit with a Tier 1 spell, which fires most often. Tier 4 Black Magic does comparable damage, but at only 5 Range. Flare does higher damage, at the same range, though with greater MP and CT values.

I'm of the opinion that *if* Holy and Flare get to be 6 range, then their MP cost should go up by at least 10, their JP cost by at least 50, and their CT by 1. If it's going to be high damage *and* 100% accuracy *and* 6 range, there should at least be some attempt to deter people from spamming it. Another suggestion could be to subject Holy/Flare/Tier 4 to Magic Evasion (though I'm sure everyone hates that idea). Currently, M-Ev gear doesn't do very much except against low Tier magic and Draw Outs.

As for a skill set with similar variety, Punch Art would come in at a distant second. It can heal, revive, remove status, and deal damage, both single panel and AoE from up to 5 range, and that damage can be increased by an optimized PA set. Although, in everything but AoE damage, Punch Art is far outclassed by White Magic. There could be a case for charge time and MP cost, but those are currently negligible to an optimized mage.

Perhaps if MA gear didn't give as much MP. Look at something like the Golden Hairpin, which gives 1MA *and* strengthens Holy and Dark *and* has the most MP out of all the Hats. If you had to make a choice between high damage or spamming, that might make things slightly more balanced.

There are lots of things that could make mages less OP. Though I think the easiest thing would be to put the range of Holy and Flare at 5. Hell, I'd even support a range buff support skill that would boost range from 5 all the way to 8, because then they'd have to choose between high range or MAtkUp.

And to anyone who thinks that White Magic isn't currently OP or is easy enough to get around, run your team against teams like "Team Rellia", "Welcome to my Mind", and "Holy Stones" and let me know how it goes. I'd bet money that such well-designed mages could be every bit as threatening with only 5 range.

My assertion all along has been that a well-designed mage with competent teammates is perfectly capable of kicking your ass with 5 range, so why does it have 6?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 24, 2012, 05:23:12 am
Refutation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKSKR4YbMlE)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 24, 2012, 04:36:18 pm
In my defense, I didn't say no one could beat it. No build is invincible. I didn't say invincible, I said OP. If you design a team specifically for the purpose of beating one other team, of course you will win. And I still think that the diversity of the skillset and the power of the skill are actually just fine. I only object to the range.

In my opinion, a team with an optimized Holy mage will roll over more builds than it should. There are plenty of balanced builds, which should be able to stand their ground against an optimized magic team and win roughly 50% of the time, if the RNG favors them, but the range puts them at a distinct disadvantage. It's hard for most builds to hold their ground against a unit that can consistently reach and OHKO nearly any non-tank unit, even after Raise 2. This effectively nullifies two units, one dead and one sandbagging, leaving two units to take on the other three enemy units. There are other optimized units that can achieve the same effect, but those units at least have to step into moderate range and expose themselves to potential AoE or other damage.

It's not that optimized mage teams are unbeatable, but that they have an advantage over too many builds. And if you design a team specifically to cut paper, then you will be smashed by rock. A balanced team can't compete against Holy at 6 range. Most balanced builds probably wouldn't have enough power to win even if Holy were at 5, but they could at least make a fight of it. So much of FFT is subject to the RNG in one way or another. And when an ability is not subjected to RNG, it is limited in some other way. Holy has a very liberal amount of power. There are weights on the other side of the scale, but not enough to balance it. I don't think losing one panel of range would make Holy underpowered in any way, but rather balanced.

I'm still failing to see why Holy needs 6 range when it can frak you up with 5.

Kudos on the victory though. That was a very thorough demonstration of how to beat an optimized Magic team and how to turn their Faith against them. Well-played.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on April 24, 2012, 10:33:30 pm
People need to stop using theorycraft. As I've said a bunch of times, if you want to show something is OP, abuse it to hell and back until people agree with you. That's the only way to get changes to happen around here.

Berserkers were nerfed because everyone used them and anyone who didn't lost. Ninjitsu was nerfed for similar reasons. Haste status was hit because almost every team needed it ever since FFT AI tournaments. There was even one point where Squire skillset had to be nerfed. The thing they had in common was that people who found how powerful it was abused it until I changed it or gets banned until next version. That is the nature of a competitive game.

On a side note, slowly buffing Geomancy again isn't a horrible idea. It has a lot perks that a lot of skills in other skillsets want (such as ignoring Faith/Fury completely, hence being able to run tanky 40/40 units and 100% accuracy no matter what at potentially 5 range and no charge time) but pays for it in terms of power and the base class is mediocre at best. Here are some options I've considered:

- Buff Y some more, expect maybe +10/20ish damage
- Increase Geomancy range back to vanillas 5 range, 1 AoE which would potentially reach Holy/Flare range
- Increase Geomancer base class move range to 5, making it the 5 move class except for Mime
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 24, 2012, 11:42:13 pm
Quote from: FFMasterPeople need to stop using theorycraft. As I've said a bunch of times, if you want to show something is OP, abuse it to hell and back until people agree with you. That's the only way to get changes to happen around here.


I don't know.  I think some of the suggested changes here are creative.  I can't speak for the ones that say "nerf X", but suggestions that aim to open new designs are legitimate.  We'll see what is being abused in a few weeks.

Quote from: FFMasterBuff Y some more, expect maybe +10/20ish damage


I'm fine with the other changes, but I really don't think the free-of-charge 100% AoE spell that procs status, ignores brave/faith, and can be set as a reaction ability needs to be any more powerful.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 09, 2012, 09:45:07 pm
Gaignun, the way I coded oil makes your suggestions to oil rather impractical: you'd either have to single out fire weakness induced by oil as 1.5x weakness or change elemental weakness as a whole to 1.5x.


This comes late, but what do people think of reducing elemental weakness to 1.5x?  The current modifier of 2.0x is a death sentence to anyone who doesn't cover their weakness.  There are so few weaknesses that the change won't affect much as of now, but it would give the green light for implementing more oil skills without rocking the boat.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 26, 2012, 10:08:37 pm
Cover fire is not worth the MP cost because the formula is written wrong.  Right now, a martial arts monk with maxPA averages 132 damage (with a 1/3 chance of 198 and 66, respectively).  Although it nicely avoids the fury calculation, this is not a worthwhile when spin fist has a bigger AoE, costs 0 MP, and does 243 damage (before fury) and wave fist does 270 damage at good range (before fury).

However, the given formula is broken: a max-PA monk with martial arts averages (18 * 3/2 * 3 + 60) * 2 = 282 damage at AoE, ignoring fury.  Thus, I propose cover fire's formula be changed to (PA * 2 + 60) * {1...3},
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 27, 2012, 12:20:53 am
Couple of suggestions, wondering how others feel.

Haste 2 and Slow 2 should go back to affecting enemies/allies. As is they get high success rate (even from high Faith caster to low Faith target), a large AoE, and can never hinder your own team/help your enemies, so casters can fire it off indiscriminately. Meanwhile Samurais get the exact opposite (which is a good thing, but I think it should apply to the Time Magic as well).

How would people feel about the Stone Gun losing Initial: Petrify and gaining Always: Slow? Currently it doesn't get used very often and when it does, the teams come prepared to heal it, so they only waste the opening round and get a pretty hefty bit of power. I think Always: Slow would encourage more use and also balance out the power a bit. With Always: Slow, it could possibly even stand to gain one or two WP. Or maybe Always: Slow, Protect. Something more like the Iron Boots. It could even be Always: Don't Move, but get a range buff. Just a few potential suggestions. Any thoughts?

Lastly, Faith Up has some weird triggers. Just recently, I saw a unit get missed by an Esuna spell she happened to be standing next to, and then counter with Faith Up. Just an observation, not really sure what to suggest for that one.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pride on April 27, 2012, 12:29:23 am
Faith Up should be triggered when the unit is targeted by an attack that consumes MP iirc
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dynablade on April 27, 2012, 12:30:12 am
I'm kinda messed up but just let me say this
The stone gun has been the same since vanilla, and if it hasn't been changed by now, don't expect it to be. Initial: Petrify forces your squad to waste at least one turn trying to restore the unit, which sorta puts you at a disadvantage. Always: Slow would REALLY suck, like "damn why even use this" suck.

Restore MP does stuff like that too, even on spells that help the unit they can still react. Dunno how that works..
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on April 27, 2012, 12:35:00 am
Always: Slow would make it unusable. End of story.

And obviously the teams would cure the Initial: Petrify. Why else would someone use it?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 27, 2012, 01:16:10 am
To be honest, Absorb MP and Faith Up triggering off anything that uses MP allows you to chain it to stuff like battle song.  Since this lets me build better synergies, I see no reason to change that.
Stone Gun isn't really broken right now.  The damage is only average, the range is OK, but on a small map, your team loses the tempo of 2 attackers.

Equips:
Madlemgen's proc should be changed to Magic Ruin so it would be more useful (while having the same overall effect)
Change Ultimus bow to 15 WP, +1 PA.  This would at least guarantee some level of use.
Change Windslash bow to 12 WP, Wind Elemental, 19% Hurricane (-33% of maxHP, wind elemental)
Change Lightning bow to 13 WP, Lightning Elemental, 25% Don't Act
Change Ice bow to 13 WP, Ice Elemental, 25% Stop
Change Silver bow to 12 WP, Holy Elemental, 19% Holy
Possibly make longbow a 12 range weapon that adds don't move.  Alternatively, it being 8 range would work too.
Consolidate Assassin's Dagger with throwing knife.  Right now, neither is a good weapon, but combined, they might pose a real benefit to mediators who don't want to learn death sentence.  Instead of Assassin's Dagger, add the Rusty Shank (8 WP, 2Sable, 50% +Poison)
Make Diamond and Platina shield 15/15 on evasion.
Give N-Kai null undead instead of confuse.
Give Jade Armlet null ice instead of null chicken.
Give Reflect Ring null berserk instead of silence.  (It's currently overshadowing the magic ring a bit too much right now.)
Give Defense Armlet absorb fire.
Give Defense Ring some evasion (8/8 should do, I think).

Status:
Oil should add weak to more (possibly all) elements.  Of course, this means it will be dispelled by attacks of all elements.

Abilities:
Secret Fist should be MA + 75% (subject to P-EV) to have any reasonable level of parity with the mediator skill.
Make Wiznaibus add poison (at 50%) so it's not entirely blocked by auto-potion.  Make Nameless Dance add oil (see above change) instead of poison.
Similarly, have life song add regen (at 50%) so it's not entirely overshadowed by mimed murasame.
Make nameless song 4 CT and have it add reraise, protect, or shell at 33% chance.  This would make it much likelier that it would be used to save a unit's life without causing the AI to never do anything else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 27, 2012, 04:15:01 am
Quote from: CT5Holy on April 27, 2012, 12:35:00 am
Always: Slow would make it unusable. End of story.


Yeah, Slow is a bit severe.

I guess I was just thinking it should be slightly easier to use, but still with something to balance the power. Just me, I suppose.

Quote from: CT5Holy on April 27, 2012, 12:35:00 am
And obviously the teams would cure the Initial: Petrify. Why else would someone use it?


I was thinking of running a dual-sex Charm offensive and tricking the enemy into curing Petrify. Too convoluted? =P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 27, 2012, 01:36:40 pm
One more suggestion: I think it would be neat if Odin became more like Silf. More specifically, like Lava Ball. Low-ish damage, but with a flat 20% chance of adding Dead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on April 28, 2012, 01:19:00 am
I've got a similar plan for Odin in the works already. Just need some time to ASM edit it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 28, 2012, 05:56:46 pm
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 27, 2012, 01:16:10 amStatus:
Oil should add weak to more (possibly all) elements.  Of course, this means it will be dispelled by attacks of all elements.


I like this one.  Maybe have it add weakness to all but holy and dark.  That way we can reserve holy and dark for powerful AoE (of which we already have two: Koutetsu and Cyclops) without having to worry about oil catalysing one-hit kills of entire parties.  Reducing the weakness modifier might also be a good idea.

I have another case to make against infinite-duration silence.  Teams subjected to a performing Nameless dancer will never cure silence in fear of being afflicted with it again.  Mages without silence resistance on these teams become useless once the ailment procs.  If silence has infinite duration for a reason, then please tell me why.  If not, can we give it a duration to the beat of 20~30 CT?

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 28, 2012, 10:50:48 pm
To be honest, if blind is infinite duration, so too must silence.  The only reliable source of silence is silence song.  Since a good number faith rod mages use the reflect ring, not nulling silence is a moot point, even if we change reflect ring to blocking berserk (because the oracle would have to then run dispel magic).  Nameless Song requires a specialized setup (meaning such a team is less flexible than an elite team) and Bizen Boat is a relatively underpowered weapon these days.  The only units that currently need to avoid silence are mediators, but I don't think too many people would oppose the existence of something checking them.
The real reason no one is considering it is because it is fairly difficult to ASM in a feature that does not exist in the game that the game has no space to add.

As for reducing the weakness modifier, since not much gear even adds weakness and the teams that employ it usually run gear that negates weakness by absorbing, halving, or nulling the element in question (which they should be doing anyways), I see little point.  Unless we add my change to Fire1 (adding oil), I don't think many people will consciously use oil because it currently exists on suboptimal gear (short edge) or attacks (demon fire, greased bolt).  Adding weakness to every element is only meant to give an oil team a wider variety of attacks to work with (though you are right in saying that darkness and holy are stronger than the other elements on average).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 28, 2012, 11:12:25 pm
Then we give blind finite duration, too.  That silence is nulled by a popular accessory does not hold water against the call for change.  That's like saying gasoline can be left at $100/L because everybody drives an electric car, when, in truth, everybody might be driving an electric car because gasoline is $100/L.  Difficulty in giving silence a duration, however, does hold water.  I thought giving ailments a duration was a simple as changing a variable.  It seems I thought wrong.

Of course the change to weakness would change little now.  I'm thinking of a patch that features more oil (for example, in nameless dance, kiyomori, poison (spell), and fire1 as you suggested). 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 28, 2012, 11:54:26 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on April 28, 2012, 11:12:25 pmThat's like saying gasoline can be left at $100/L because everybody drives an electric car, when, in truth, everybody might be driving an electric car because gasoline is $100/L.


That holds even less water, because in this case we can say with certainty that the "cost of gasoline" isn't affecting people's decision to "drive electric cars". It's just more efficient to "drive electric cars" than to waste time with "gasoline" - the only way you'd change anyone's mind is if the "price" was practically zero.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 12:03:24 am
Its price isn't zero now, yet people drive cars that require it.  Electricity isn't free, either.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: AeroGP on April 29, 2012, 12:20:24 am
Quote from: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 12:03:24 amIts price isn't zero now, yet people drive cars that require it.  Electricity isn't free, either.


The "cars" aren't very good, tbh, and the "price of electricity" is negligible compared to the benefits.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 12:52:05 am
I don't expect that every consumer wants to buy an electric car knowing it costs about $10,000 more than an economy-sized gasoline-powered car, has a range of a few tens of kilometres, takes hours to recharge, and will become scrap metal once the batteries die out.  And every consumer doesn't.  My message is about giving consumers a choice.

To put this in FFT's terms, I don't expect every person to want to put a reflect ring on a mage knowing that reflect can be dispelled, ignored by summon magic and lore, and that it blocks friendly healing and support.  I want people to freely consider giving their mages evasion, elemental absorption, and status resistance.  My suggestion is a modest one: put a duration on silence so that teams without reflect rings aren't hamstrung by an inept AI.  Silence will still have its role in shutting down mages, just as gasoline prices have their role in pushing people toward electric cars.  Those afraid of silence can still choose electric.  Those not afraid can try something else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on April 29, 2012, 01:26:28 am
All that I see will happen is that people will move from using Silence to using Don't Act if they haven't already. Silence with a CT is a poor man's Don't Act. Unless we nerf both somehow? I've never really messed with status CT before. I just know that Silence doesn't take CT in Patcher.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 01:39:52 am
That's true.  I suppose we could compromise.  Don't act has a CT of 20, so silence could have a CT of around 30.  Silence could also be made to prevent the use of all skills and give that poor man at least enough money to feed himself.  The fact that it doesn't take CT is a problem, though, forcing me to suggest we strip silence from nameless dance, which I think has already been stripped enough.  This would also apply with blind.  Considering the grief we've been having with nameless dance, perhaps it's time to redesign it into something that doesn't tend to break the AI - something like 50% chance of dispell.  Then again, if this change scares the AI into refusing to buff itself, then we're no better off.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 02:17:27 am
Nobody here complains that petrify or frog are perpetual and they are far worse than silence.  Why is there a sudden complaint against silence?

Also, nameless dance is a gamble but it can be used because you mess up your dancer's AI and the AI of the entire enemy team.  That's a fair bargain for being forced to run a unit who'll choose dancing over healing (much of the time) and a mime to ensure enough of the statues actually hit the target.  Thus, I don't think it needs to be changed to something radically different anymore.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 02:34:11 am
I'm not complaining about petrify because nameless dance doesn't proc it.  Frog I have complained about, but I haven't yet been able to generate much dialogue about it.

If nameless dance messes up the dancer's AI as well as the opponent's, then perhaps it needs to be redesigned indeed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 06, 2012, 02:44:35 am
Most changes sound reasonable to me.

Quote
Summoner
Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.


Summons on the whole are going to need a little shuffling around to keep the skill set balanced in this case.  Here are a few suggestions:

Leviathan: Dmg_F(MA*8), water elemental, 10% +Frog, 20 MP, 5 CT
Salamander: Dmg_F(MA*8), fire elemental, 30% +Poison, 20 MP, 5 CT
Titan: Dmg_F(MA*9), earth elemental, 20% +Don't Move, 20 MP, 5 CT
Silf: Dmg_F(MA*8), wind elemental, 20% +Don't Act, 25 MP, 3 CT

Quote
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)


You sure about these?  I can't refuse new movement ideas, given how there are so few, but +3 seems a little high.  Faith UP and Brave UP will look terribly expensive by comparison.

Also, how does a movement skill that adds +5 CT for, say, 500 JP sound?

Quote
Dead:
Cancel Oil


I propose we add "Cancel: Frog" to this list.

Finally, what do people think about giving male mage classes a significant HP boost?  They are currently eclipsed by their female counterparts in terms of MA, and their extra PA is of little practical use.  They also have extra HP, but not enough to tempt people away from the females.  A boost of 10~20 HP might do the trick.  Pushing their HP past that of melee classes is not a problem, as they still won't have armour, shields, nor destructive power of these melee classes.  This would help differentiate the males from the females.  The males can be used as tanky support/status units, and the females can remain as glass cannons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 06, 2012, 03:09:21 am
Quote
I propose we add "Cancel: Frog" to this list.

I disagree for the reason that there should exist means to punish someone who just spams raise without actually bothering to heal status effects.  The part with dead canceling oil was only to resolve a bug where a boosted attack that becomes a 1HKO would not remove oil because dead status from the 1HKO was applied first.

Quote
given how there are so few, but +3 seems a little high.  Faith UP and Brave UP will look terribly expensive by comparison.

If we want, we can definitely reduce the bonus to +2.  However, given the JP costs are comparable to Brave/Faith Up, it shouldn't be that much of a difference.  The only difference is that Brave/Faith Up requires a bard to reliably use and this doesn't.

Quote
Finally, what do people think about giving male mage classes a significant HP boost?  They are currently eclipsed by their female counterparts in terms of MA, and their extra PA is of little practical use.  They also have extra HP, but not enough to tempt people away from the females.  A boost of 10~20 HP might do the trick.  Pushing their HP past that of melee classes is not a problem, as they still won't have armour, shields, nor destructive power of these melee classes.  This would help differentiate the males from the females.  The males can be used as tanky support/status units, and the females can remain as glass cannons.

I agree with you here, but we can't really do this without increasing the HP on all mage classes or on all males unless we fix how FFT calculates its HP growths.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 06, 2012, 06:13:57 am
should we remove diamond sword and replace it with flame tongue?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 06, 2012, 08:54:30 am
Quote from: Barren on May 06, 2012, 06:13:57 am
should we remove diamond sword and replace it with flame tongue?

Considering how well my team synchronized it to platina dagger (or alternatively, 2S/2H), I'd argue otherwise, but I'm indifferent either way.  However, lightning elemental could use a decent melee weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 06, 2012, 09:19:36 am
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on May 06, 2012, 03:09:21 am
I disagree for the reason that there should exist means to punish someone who just spams raise without actually bothering to heal status effects.


Frogs will die even if teams come prepared to cure it.  At 150% incurred damage, they draw the entire enemy team's fire.  Also, support units restore the frog's HP over curing the status.  The only way to cure frog is to have a significant turn lead.  If you want statii to stick around after death, I suggest statii that don't break the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 07, 2012, 12:59:28 am
Quote
Also, support units restore the frog's HP over curing the status


That's standard AI behavior for every status effect that doesn't specifically change the AI behavior or isn't flagged KO or ignore.  The problem, of course, is that frog is not your average status.  An IRC poll shows most people support your change, so I guess I'll add it.

To replace it, I think poison and regen should persist after death.  Both are currently undervalued status effects that could use a boost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 07, 2012, 11:05:10 am
Masamune should cost 400-500 JP, or at LEAST Haste 2 + Regen's JP cost combined.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 07, 2012, 11:10:27 am
Quote from: Shintroy on May 07, 2012, 11:05:10 am
Masamune should cost 400-500 JP, or at LEAST Haste 2 + Regen's JP cost combined.


Don't worry.  It's getting nerfed to only affect two units at a time, one of which must be the caster.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 08, 2012, 03:56:53 pm
A very little thing, but you know how some people will specify a unit order? Why not just arrange the units in the order that you want them? That little bit feels unnecessary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 09, 2012, 10:10:43 pm
I just looked at Bizen Boat as a weapon. It could use 1 more WP so it'd be on the same par as Masamune
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 09, 2012, 11:06:38 pm
Quote from: Barren on May 09, 2012, 10:10:43 pm
I just looked at Bizen Boat as a weapon. It could use 1 more WP so it'd be on the same par as Masamune


Make a weapon (Knife) that only damages MP.

Knife, Rod and Bow maybe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 10, 2012, 12:05:39 am
Demi 2 should get buffed in some way. I was thinking of one of these:

1. Shorter charge time
2. Higher hit rate
3. AoE up to 2
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Xifanie on May 10, 2012, 12:35:15 am
Quote from: CT5Holy on May 08, 2012, 03:56:53 pm
A very little thing, but you know how some people will specify a unit order? Why not just arrange the units in the order that you want them? That little bit feels unnecessary.

That feature will be removed in the new memory card generator, it is indeed rather useless
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 10, 2012, 01:10:28 am
Seriously make some weapons that damage only MP.
There's enough hard counters for melee units.

I want to use Salty Rage
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 10, 2012, 01:46:15 pm
I think we should also remove immune chicken on the gold helmet since we don't have to worry about brave being lowered anymore. maybe replace it with something else or just simply remove immune chicken
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 10, 2012, 04:06:18 pm
Good point.  Also, switching back to Vanilla Procs means Local Quake would add Confuse again.  Any idea what it should add instead?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on May 10, 2012, 05:49:41 pm
whats so bad about confuse?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 10, 2012, 06:32:24 pm
Well we really don't use confuse anymore considering that beguile now inflicts charm
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 10, 2012, 07:28:09 pm
Quote from: Avalanche on May 10, 2012, 05:49:41 pm
whats so bad about confuse?


It can lead to the AI refusing to kill the Confused units and having a battle that never ends.

See: the infamous "Loss" strategy used against Adramelk and other Confuse-using bosses in many FFT challenge runs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 10, 2012, 08:26:43 pm
Collected Changes (updated with the problems Barren pointed out):

Equips:
Throwing Knife (Gain +33% Death Sentence)
Dual Cutters (Gain +1 WP)
Blind Knife => Pain Knife (9 WP, 2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +5% Crystal)
Mage Masher (Change proc to 50% Bizen Boat)
Assassin Dagger => Katar (12 WP, no2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +1 PA)
Spell Edge (Change +1 MA to 50% Spell Absorb)
All Knight Swords (+1 WP)
Koutetsu (Add: +1 PA)
Heaven's Cloud (Change +1 PA to Proc: 50% Slow)
Healing Staff (+1 WP)
Rainbow Staff (-1 WP, Remove: All Elements)
Bow Gun (Change proc to 50% Armorbreak)
Blaze Gun (12-13 WP, Change proc to 100% Fire3)
Glacier Gun (11-12 WP, Change proc to 100% Ice3)
Blast Gun (10-11 WP, Change proc to 100% Bolt3)
Cross Bow => Silencer (10 WP, +50% Silence, 4 Range, 0% W-EV)
Poison Bow (+2 WP)
Longbow (+2 Range)
Silver Bow (Proc: 19% Holy)
Ice Bow (Change all effects to Proc: 25% Stop)
Lightning Bow (Change all effects to Proc: 25% Don't Act)
Windslash Bow (Proc: 19% Hurricane)
Ultimus Bow (+1 PA)
Monster Dictionary (Change proc to Magic Ruin)
Mythril Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Gold Shield (Change to 25 / 5)
Ice Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Flame Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Diamond Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Platina Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Crystal Shield (Change to 20 / 20, halve/weak: all elements)
Genji Shield (Change to 10 / 5)
Venetian Plate => Glitter Shield (+1 SPD, 5 / 5)
Gold Helmet (Change Null: Chicken to Null: Don't Move)
Genji Helmet (Chance Null: Don't Move to Initial: Berserk)
N-Kai Armlet (Change Null: Confuse to Undead)
Jade Armlet (Change Null: Chicken to Ice)
Reflect Ring (Change Null: Silence to Berserk)
Defense Armlet (+Absorb: Fire)
Defense Ring (+8/8)
Small Mantle (10 / 20, Null: Holy/EArth)
Wizard Mantle (15 / 25, Null: Don't Act)
Leather Mantle (20 / 30)
Elf Mantle (25 / 25)
Feather Mantle (30 / 20)
Dracula Mantle (25 / 15, Null: Berserk)
Vanish Mantle (20 / 10, Null: Wind/Water)


Jobs:

Squire
Remove: Cheer Up
Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste)
Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP)
Add: Concentrate (400 JP)

Paladin
Remove: Dia
Remove: Iron Will
Remove: Magic Ward
Change: Nurse (Add: Defend/Regen)
Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost)
Add: Prepare (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP)
Add: Wretched Blade (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, +Poison, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)

Archer
Remove: Greased Bolt
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP)
Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3})

Monk
Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65)
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

Priest
Remove: Reraise
Add: Dia (See old Paladin)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

Wizard
(+15 MAM)
Remove: Fire1
Remove: Ice1
Remove: Bolt1
Add: Fire 2 Back (Same as old Fire2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Ice 2 Back (Same as old Ice2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Bolt 2 Back (Same as old Bolt2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Change: Fire 2 (+19% Oil)
Change: Ice 2 (+19% Slow)
Change: Bolt 2 (+19% Don't Move)
Change: Poison (AoE +1, Vert +1)

Time Mage
Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2)

Summoner
Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.
Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 30% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT)
Change: Lich (Change Y = 65)

Thief
Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell)

Geomancer
(+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM)
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move
Change Local Quake to +Petrify
Change Quicksand to +Zombie
Change Pitfall to +Slow
Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep
Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act
Change Demon Fire to +Oil
Change Blizzard to +Silence/Blind
Change Sandstorm to +Berserk

Samurai
Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf)
Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, Self)

Ninja
Remove: Doku no Kyoukai
Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV)
Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects)
Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act)

Bard
Change: Life Song (+25% Regen)
Change: Nameless Song (Change hit rate 40%, CT = 4, RandomAdd: Reraise, Protect, Shell)

Dancer
Change: Wiznaibus (+25% Poison)
Change: Nameless Dance (Change to RandomAdd: Darkness, Silence, Slow, Oil)


Status:

Oil:
Dispel by all elements except holy/dark.
Weak to all elements except holy/dark.

Dead:
Cancel: Oil, Frog
De-Cancel: Regen, Poison
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 10, 2012, 08:32:51 pm
Suggestion: Magic Guns +1 MA

Also, as I'm here, not a fan of them becoming only Tier 3 spells. And if they do, they should definitely become subject to M-Ev and Reflect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 10, 2012, 08:41:53 pm
Quote from: Fantactic1316 on May 10, 2012, 08:32:51 pm
Suggestion: Magic Guns +1 MA

Also, as I'm here, not a fan of them becoming only Tier 3 spells. And if they do, they should definitely become subject to M-Ev and Reflect.


The formula for spell guns is WP * Y * Faith.  This means that +1 MA will do nothing to boost the power of those guns.  Furthermore, if WP comes down to accommodate for using the higher Y values of the Tier 3 spells, the overall spell damage will not change.  The only change is that you won't have Kagesougi or Grand Cross being so broken.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 10, 2012, 11:20:54 pm
Oh, Magic Guns don't use MA...well, that sorts me out on that one.

Although it makes me like the lower WP idea even less. It might fix Grand Cross, but the Magic Guns would start to look kind of puny to anyone who uses them as an actual weapon. 100% Tier 3 does a bit for that, I suppose.

How about if all three magic guns became 13 WP (which is what the Ice Brand has, and it's kind of the obvious choice for Grand Cross on a Paladin) and the Y values are raised to make up the difference for anyone who uses the melee ability of the guns? (+1 to Blast, +2 to Glacier, +4 to Blaze) Not sure how difficult it might be to change the Y's, and especially to assign 3 different Y's where they used to all be the same, but it sounds good in theory, right? Alternatively the guns could be made to all deal the same damage if different Y values cause trouble. Just raise all of the Y's by 2 to meet in the middle. (Blast gets slightly stronger, Blaze gets slightly weaker, Glacier stays the same.)

In either of those cases, Grand Cross becomes equivalent to the best a Paladin can make of it (assuming they want to absorb it, and...why wouldn't they?) while the guns retain their effectiveness as a melee weapon without having to make any changes to the random spells.

Third alternative, give the guns the regular spell formulas...but then they might be too strong??
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 10, 2012, 11:27:04 pm
Guns use the regular spell formulas, with WP as MA. Their regular attack damage is fine.

I'm pretty sure we can't do it your way, and reducing the WP means we aren't making any changes to "random spells." Also, they need their WP lowered because they simply do too much damage with Kagesougi/Grand Cross.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 11, 2012, 12:31:22 am
So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 11, 2012, 01:10:58 am
Quote from: CT5Holy on May 10, 2012, 11:27:04 pm
Guns use the regular spell formulas, with WP as MA.


I meant using MA as MA, and the Y values from the Black Magic skillset. You would literally use, for example, Fire 1 with the Blaze Gun (60% of the time) with the formula [Dmg_F(MA*6)] as opposed to the current (according to the Master Guide) [CFa/100 * TFa/100 * Q * WP]; Q = 16 : 60% of the time...

The damage output is similar, but those two look like different formulas to me. Am I missing something?

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 10, 2012, 11:27:04 pm
Their regular attack damage is fine.


Their attack damge is fine...as it is now. If the WP is lowered, so is the damage. Raising the Y values in the current magic gun formula could offset that, while still not giving any additional power to Grand Cross/Kagesougi. If WP drops, but Y goes up by the same amount, then the melee attacks would remain close to their current damage.

And putting them on the actual spell formulas would take WP out of the equation altogether. If that were the case, I'd suggest +1 MA so that units like Archers could still use magic guns effectively if they so desired.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 10, 2012, 11:27:04 pm
I'm pretty sure we can't do it your way,


Fair enough if you can't. Though I still think it takes the fun out of magic guns.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 10, 2012, 11:27:04 pm
and reducing the WP means we aren't making any changes to "random spells."


I was just going off of what FDC said.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on May 10, 2012, 08:26:43 pm
Blaze Gun (12-13 WP, Change proc to 100% Fire3)
Glacier Gun (11-12 WP, Change proc to 100% Ice3)
Blast Gun (10-11 WP, Change proc to 100% Bolt3)


And changing topics:

Quote from: Shintroy on May 11, 2012, 12:31:22 am
So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage


I think Bizen Boat and/or Mage Masher would fit that bill quite nicely (in conjunction with the removal of their Silence procs).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 11, 2012, 01:24:42 am
I don't know how well the AI would use a weapon that did solely MP damage. Proccing Bizen Boat or something similar is probably a better solution.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 11, 2012, 09:09:45 am
Quote from: Shintroy on May 11, 2012, 12:31:22 am
So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage


I've already told you this at least a half dozen times in Chat.  This is made obsolete by a weapon that procs 50% Bizen Boat/Spell Absorb/Magic Ruin and will be considered worthless by the AI (and rightly so) because it doesn't do HP damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on May 11, 2012, 09:54:10 am

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on May 11, 2012, 09:09:45 am
I've already told you this at least a half dozen times in Chat.  This is made obsolete by a weapon that procs 50% Bizen Boat/Spell Absorb/Magic Ruin and will be considered worthless by the AI (and rightly so) because it doesn't do HP damage.


I believe the Ai wouldnt use it ( a mp-dmg weapon) unless they can prevent a spell from going off. But this doesnt makes it useless. Because the fact that the ai cant inflict hp-dmg with weapon attack might be the strenght of such a weapon if you dont want the Ai to waste turns. For instance i had a chemist with talk skill who kept atacking the enemy for crappy dmg instead going for talk skills.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 11, 2012, 10:19:45 am
Maybe I'm more of the offensive player, but I believe that a well-designed team is one where all the favored AI options advance your strategy.  A good AI team is not only well-designed (by the above definition) but also carries multiple strategies on each unit without messing up the AI.  Thus, I'd rather a chemist using talk skill and his weapon because although he can't use both simultaneously (and thus will use talk skill less than the chemist you just described), the ability to freely use one or the other can counter more opponents than a chemist bound to only one role.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 11, 2012, 07:04:25 pm
(Man, I'd be pretty livid that this didn't post before I left after all the time I spent on it. Good thing I properly backed-up. Not sure if that's the fault of the forum or Firefox or myself. Probably all three.)

I am returned from my real life failures to address more virtual ones.

From what little testing I remember doing, the AI didn't exactly use MP-only damaging weapons well. Of course, it's been a year or two if I even did test....

Still, I think "we" should avoid that, as much as I would actually like to see that tested. Unless Shintroy (or who ever else supports it) can come up with multiple compelling reasons as to why "we" need yet more things to screw mages over when a lot of magic is still kinda dubious, then I too don't really see a point.

Quote from: Avalanche on May 10, 2012, 05:49:41 pm
whats so bad about confuse?


To elaborate more on what RavenofRazgriz said, it tends to make the AI ignore the Confused unit unless the AI can do 50% or more in one hit, and even that's kinda...iffy sometimes. Given that Confusion also has infinite duration (and traps in ARENA are removed, not that every map had damaging traps to begin with), this would pretty much mean stalemates in quite a few instances, especially for more tanky or less damage-oriented teams.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on May 10, 2012, 08:26:43 pm
Collected Changes (updated with the problems Barren pointed out):


Would you mind terribly telling us what exactly these "problems" were? I ask this especially since, as I've noticed, you removed your original post some time during my almost-week-long hiatus given the conspicuous gap Gaignun's posts of April 28th and May 5th.

Regardless, I'll break down my thoughts on this list as I going to do when I initially saw it before/as I left; I stayed my hand given I had stuff to (finally) do (horribly). I'll be breaking it into "Stuff I More or Less Agree With", "Stuff I Could Hesitantly Agree With Even Without Changes", and "Stuff I Outright Reject At Present Unless It Changes". Such concise titles will be the heading of appropriate spoilers. I'll be separating equipment and job (and status) stuff as well.


EQUIPMENT COMMENTS GO HERE

This part will be the most sparse in commentary, though perhaps that's not saying much coming from me:

1. Throwing Knife (Gain +33% Death Sentence) - Although, in my nigh-worthless opinion, this weapon isn't quite as bad some people seem to think it currently is, it and Assassin Dagger would definitely better and still fair combined. Right now, they're both just "there".

2. Dual Cutters (Gain +1 WP) - Agreed. At least, unlike Bow Gun, this can already be strengthened in various ways so maybe it will finally see some use.

3. Mage Masher (Change proc to 50% Bizen Boat) - Kinda rubs me the wrong way, but given that pretty much all the Knife-wielding classes have lower MA and the fact that it fits the weapon design on top of the fact that I do think we need a weapon that drains MP, I'm ultimately fine with. Probably.

4. Assassin Dagger => Katar (12 WP, no2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +1 PA) - I approve of the name change. I'm still not sure it and Orichalcum can compete with Main Gauche, though.

5. Spell Edge (Change +1 MA to 50% Spell Absorb) - I guess....

6. All Knight Swords (+1 WP) - I suppose I can see why due to Forced. Not sure how necessary, though.

7. Healing Staff (+1 WP) - Agreed.

8. Blaze Gun (12-13 WP, Change proc to 100% Fire3) - Agreed I guess; I'm not sure what the typical damage out from the actual gun would become, but it definitely needs WP drop. I'd prefer the lower end on all three of these.

9. Glacier Gun (11-12 WP, Change proc to 100% Ice3) - See above.

10. Blast Gun (10-11 WP, Change proc to 100% Bolt3) - See above.

11. Cross Bow => Silencer (10 WP, +50% Silence, 4 Range, 0% W-EV) - A much needed improvement.

12. Poison Bow (+2 WP) - I suppose I can see why this is merited.

13. Silver Bow (Proc: 19% Holy) - Seems fine, even if 19% is odd...; it vaguely seems like a reference to something, but that may just be my imagination.

14. Ice Bow (Change all effects to Proc: 25% Stop) - I am guessing you mean the status and not the spell, correct?

15. Lightning Bow (Change all effects to Proc: 25% Don't Act) - Meh. Definitely an improvement.

16. Ultimus Bow (+1 PA) - Agreed.

17. Monster Dictionary (Change proc to Magic Ruin) - Sinkhole is pretty much never going to work as a proc, so this changing is necessary. Changing it to something non-HP-damaging is "safe".

18. Mythril Shield (Change to 15 / 15) - Seems fine.

19. Ice Shield (Change to 20 / 10) - Agreed.

20. Flame Shield (Change to 20 / 10) - Agreed.

21. Diamond Shield (Change to 15 / 15) - Agreed.

22. Platina Shield (Change to 15 / 15) - Agreed.

23. Gold Helmet (Change Null: Chicken to Null: Don't Move) - Agreed given Chicken can't even be inflicted anymore.

24. N-Kai Armlet (Change Null: Confuse to Undead) - Agreed since Confuse can't even be inflicted anymore.

25. Reflect Ring (Change Null: Silence to Berserk) - Agreed, even as unsure as I am about wanting Magic Ring "back" and the fact that it blocks what's arguably Defense Ring's most useful immunity.

26. Defense Armlet (+Absorb: Fire) - Agreed.

27. Defense Ring (+8/8) - Agreed. Not sure it will help though, at least ....



This stuff will also be rather sparse on commentary, mostly asking for clarifications.

1. Longbow (+2 Range) - +2 Range seems a bit much, especially since the other Longbows already don't really see use in most instances. I understand you want to make it compete with Romanada Gun and I appreciate that sentiment, but given that it can extend its range already unlike Romanda Gun, I think that +1 Range alone is fine or, at least, is a decent starting point that errs on the side of caution. It getting +2 range might not be that bad though....

2. Windslash Bow (Proc: 19% Hurricane) - I am only hesitant here at present because I have no idea what Hurricane's formula is, especially in ARENA terms. The Master Guide needs to explain what some of procs do (read: show the formula) for those abilities that are only procs.[/b] *looks at all the "Bracelets"/Breaths and Climhazzard* Other that, 19% is again strange, so I'm guessing it's supposed to be "strong".

3. Gold Shield (Change to 25 / 5) - I'm really not sure why this has such a "funky" distribution compared to its partner Mythril Shield, especially when immunity to Earth is easier to come by compared to Lightning and when you went out of your way to make the other paired shields equal in P-EV and M-EV. Please explain.

4. Crystal Shield (Change to 20 / 20, halve/weak: all elements) - I'd argue that the P-EV and M-EV should be 15% like your changes to Diamond Shield and Platina Shield given stuff like P Bag and Light Robe are (still) around. Otherwise, I suppose it's fine.

5. Genji Shield (Change to 10 / 5) - Seems a bit low, especially since Cancel: Dead is kinda "meh". I suppose I can agree though because of +1 PA, but even with that and the 20% P-EV it has now it hardly sees much use. While that's more for other reasons besides some of the other shields being outright "better", maybe compromise with 10% M-EV or even 15% P-EV? I don't really care; it just strikes me as a bit odd.

6. Venetian Plate => Glitter Shield (+1 SPD, 5 / 5) - I can "dig" the concept. I just really don't like the name. Sorry. Please just call it "Buckler". I was going to suggest even just calling it Escutcheon, but that might confuse some newbs who ignore the "II" that 25/25 one has, so....

7. Genji Helmet (Chance Null: Don't Move to Initial: Berserk) - Pretty meh, but more because Berserk itself is currently meh as a positive status since despite being a "neutral" status, it is decidedly treated as negative one by the AI and it's definitely one when applied to the AI as Berserk status itself is now. Meaning that if you're going to try to use it, you don't get the benefit of using Esuna or Stigma Magic. Still, this does need something else besides Don't Move if Gold Helmet is getting that. Of course, if this gets Initial: Berserk, then Salty Rage becomes even worse.... Still, let's worry about that later. If you're going to give this Initial: Berserk, then I'd argue it needs a bit more HP; HP +5 seems "enough" since it doesn't step on Grand Helmet's toes, though I suppose you give this HP +10 and then boost Grand Helmet by HP +5.

8. Jade Armlet (Change Null: Chicken to Ice) - I agree that this needs to change since Chicken doesn't even exist anymore. However, I'm curious as to why you would want this to only Null Ice rather than Absorb it, especially when Ice is the weaker element (usage-wise at least) and you want yet another Fire-absorbing piece of equipment in Defense Armlet. Please explain.

9. Small Mantle (10 / 20, Null: Holy/Earth)  - I guess this is fine. While I can understand upping the P-EV and M-EV values for all of the mantles since the 0% never made much sense to me, I think these have perhaps a bit too much, if only because Abandon and technically Caution/Defend/Defending status are still around alongside an increasingly common Blind between just Kagesougi and Grand Cross alone. This one is...fine I guess, even if I still think that the nullification of Holy and Earth should be something slightly different. However, there's only so much Item Attribute Space....

10. Wizard Mantle (15 / 25, Null: Don't Act) - See above.

11. Leather Mantle (20 / 30) - See above.

12. Vanish Mantle (20 / 10, Null: Wind/Water) - See above.



I'll try to remain polite here. I say that not because I think your ideas are horrible or anything, sans Pain Knife. It's just kinda of a heads up since this week/month/year/life has been especially crappy and I'm not going to bed anytime soon, so I might come off (a lot) harsher than I mean to.

Also, I'm going to underline what I think the chief problem is or problems are since I'm already using the bold function to separate things.


1. Blind Knife => Pain Knife (9 WP, 2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +5% Crystal) - I literally rolled my eyes at this when I saw it before I left because I couldn't fathom what made you think letting something add Crystal (or Treasure) of all things made it a good idea. I still can't, especially since you're letting it be used with Two Swords...in a patch where classes that can use a Ninja Sword innately--all the same classes that can also use Knives--currently have 100% accuracy with whatever "2S-Yes" other weapon they want due to Hidden Knife. A weapon such as this one, that will hit you and might make a unit deader than dead 5% of the time...yeah.

As such, I can't get behind it at all, especially since it kinda screws over the proposed changes to Assassin's Throwing Knife. If you feel it must exist in some capacity, then please make it add Dead at 5%-10% since, as much as I hate items like that, they're so much more fair than adding Crystal. If you insist on keeping as Two Swords compatible, then please drop its WP a bit as well Otherwise, get rid of & maybe up its WP. Maybe go the extra mile and just name it Tonberrian and allow it to be Two-Handed, as silly as that will look.

2. Koutetsu (Add: +1 PA) - I have less a problem with this, hence no underlining, and more a problem with (certain) Katana as they are in general. That said, while I can understand why +1 PA would go here with Heaven's Cloud needing something more, I still say that "we" just go with what someone suggested forever ago; this admittedly might have been me, I forget, in which case this unintentionally comes off as narcissism. That suggestion would be to make it so that Kotetsu Strengthens Fire while Asura Strengthens Dark, even if "we" have to drop Asura's WP a bit to do so, especially with the innate Two Hands ARENA Samurai have and with Darkn being a stronger element. Or would that be even worse? Regardless, I don't think +1 PA is "the answer", though it's hardly overpowered or anything.

3. Heaven's Cloud (Change +1 PA to Proc: 50% Slow) - Much like Kotetsu above, this is more a problem with (certain) Katana than with this proposal, though 50% Slow is bit powerful given the high damage and the literal halving of Speed on top of that. I can't really see this being more than a 33% chance. Otherwise, I suppose that would be fine, especially since Wind is still a rather crappy attacking element, Fuuton's currently unavoidable aspect aside.

4. Rainbow Staff (-1 WP, Remove: All Elements) - While I can understand removing the All Elements aspect that largely hurts its already slim chances of use, it doesn't seem necessary to drop its WP. It's not like mages are really going to use Two Swords or Two Hands with Staves, especially when Rods and Poles still exist, respectively. Please put the WP back and leave it alone.

5. Bow Gun (Change proc to 50% Armorbreak) - While Bow Gun definitely needs a change, this seems a bit...much. Wouldn't Armorbreak also do extra damage when they had no armor? While I can understand trying to fix Bow Gun by essentially making it into "Super Bow Gun" by allowing to break Armor and then still double hit, that seems a bit overzealous. I'll detail an idea I just had for this below, but needless to say I can't get behind this; a nice attempt though, especially since it tried to stay true to FFMaster's original intentions.

6. Elf Mantle (25 / 25) - As I mentioned under the less dubious mantles, it seems like the P-EV and M-EV are getting too high, even if I just now remembered that Abandon has been nerfed from double evasion to 1.5 evasion. This is the least problematic one of the three mantles that I don't agree with, though.

7. Feather Mantle (30 / 20) - See above, only with more P-EV problems that cause this to be the mantle I'm the most wary of.

8. Dracula Mantle (25 / 15, Null: Berserk) - See above, only going back to the still potentially problematic 25% P-EV while also adding in more potential overemphasis on blocking Berserk on accessories when Defense Ring is already still dubious with "only" 8% P-EV and 8% M-EV added to it.



****

JOB (AND STATUS) COMMENTS GO HERE


I'll honestly try to keep this section concise. Must admit that I'm surprised you suggested no Mediator changes, though, given what you said earlier.

1. Squire: Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste) - Agreed, even if it might convince the AI to kill itself even more despite already being so careful.

2. Squire: Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP) - Agreed, since it is so very needed, though I'd probably make it cost a bit more MP considering. Anyway, as much as I like "Alacrity" (and "Celerity") as a word, please just call this "Focus".

3. Paladin: Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP) - Agreed.

4. Archer: Remove: Greased Bolt & Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil) - Pretty much the same thing. Otherwise, I guess this is fine.

5. Archer: Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3}) - Given what you said earlier, this rather needs to change.

6. Monk: Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP) - Should be interesting to see, especially since it has quite the potential to backfire.

7. Priest: Remove: Reraise - Rather necessary for Paladin to obtain it.

8. Priest: Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)  - I was going to say that this should go to another mage given what Priest is already one of the strong ones, but basically ever mage in ARENA has a movement already surprising sans Priest, Summoner and Scholar. Between the two, I must begrudgingly conclude that Priest would be less dangerous with it. Maybe.

9. Wizard: (+15 MAM) - Sure...even if I'm admittedly not sure what that actually ultimately adds. Plus +1 MA I'm assuming? I really need to get better at this stats stuff....

10. Wizard: Change: Fire 2 (+19% Oil) - I guess.

11. Wizard: Change: Ice 2 (+19% Slow) - See above.

12. Change: Bolt 2 (+19% Don't Move) - See above.

13. Time Mage: Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2) - Yes please.

14. Summoner: Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV. - Seems more than reasonable. I may steal this for Embargo, especially since I was already letting some Summon Magick be avoidable. However, I digress....

15. Summoner: Change: Lich (Change Y = 65) - Uh, sure.

16. Thief: Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell) - Agreed. Wonder if it will end up being abusable though....

17. Geomancer: Change Carve Model to +Don't Move - By the Occuria, yes! Yes. A thousand times yes. I'm not even going to ask for all Elementals to actually be...elemental now as long as you're getting rid of that damn stupid Instant Kill option that also applies on reaction via Counter Flood.

18. Geomancer: Change Quicksand to +Zombie - Interesting. I can get behind interesting.

19. Geomancer: Change Sandstorm to +Berserk - Sand is pretty damn irritating, so agreed.

20. Samurai: Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf) - Uh, sure. I hadn't even realized this was AoE 3 until now.

21. Samurai: Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, Self) - I suppose. I'd much rather it change to something else, but I honestly can't think of what still. But, yeah, it needs to not be able to hit more than two people max, even if that doesn't change much....

22. Ninja: Remove: Doku no Kyoukai & Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act) - Agreed, especially now that I've remembered/been reminded that Separate literally quarters the application changes. That said, maybe it would be for the best to get rid of Don't Act and restrict it to close range.

23. Ninja: Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV) - They definitely need to be subject to some type of evade.

24. Ninja: Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects) - This should be fine with only 4 units and range of 1. Perhaps only -20 CT is best, though.

25. Status: Oil: Dispel by all elements except holy/dark & Weak to all elements except holy/dark - Given these go hand-in-hand, I'll say yes to both now. It should be interesting testing. These won't be dispelled by elemental weapons, right? (I actually wouldn't mind if they were, just recall that they probably won't be.)

26. Status: Dead: Cancel: Oil - Essentially just fixes a glitch; something I realized forever ago. Rather necessary with the above too.



...Okay, I'll honestly try to be more concise here.

1. Squire: Remove: Cheer Up - Okay. I suppose I could see why you might get rid of this, though it honestly doesn't seem to overly pressing compared to something like Yell. Shrug.

2. Paladin: Remove: Iron Will, Remove: Magic Ward & Change: Nurse (Add: Defend/Regen) - Since these are all basically the same thing. I guess I need more clarification about this new Nurse. Does it only add Defending and Regen? Or does it still heal somewhat as well? I doubt it still heals, at least 33%, but I wish to be sure.

3. Paladin: Add: Prepare (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP) - I can get behind this. Or, rather, I could if Paladin didn't have clear means of healing itself through Grand Cross, which is what it's probably going to do in most instances if it doesn't just outright go for Nurse. As such, while the sentiment is nice, I'm not entirely sure the AI will use it unfortunately.

4. Paladin: Add: Wretched Blade (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, +Poison, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP) - So...basically a lesser Grand Cross that Poisons and can't heal the user. 'Kay. The only reason it is here at "maybe" section is because I'm so apathetic about it and because it's so off-theme for a "Paladin", especially if "we" are going out of the way to not call them Knights.

5. Monk: Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65) - Not really sure why this is necessary either, but sure....

6. Wizard: Remove: Fire1 & Add: Fire 2 Back (Same as old Fire2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%) - Sure, why not? Does "UnFury" mean that it's utterly independent of Faith, though? Or is that just the target's "UnFury"? being considered? Also, percentage? Is that percentage to hit then?

7. Wizard: Remove: Ice1 & Add: Ice 2 Back (Same as old Ice2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%) - See above.

8. Wizard: Remove: Bolt1 & Add: Bolt 2 Back (Same as old Bolt2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%) - See above.

9. Wizard: Change: Poison (AoE +1, Vert +1) - Not exactly what I had in mind for Poison, but it definitely improves it.

10. Summoner: Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 30% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT) - A standard 25% chance of Dead seems more fair since it's actually doing damage now and can thus kill through that too. Maybe raise its CT to 7 as well, but otherwise I concur.

11. Geomancer: (+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM) - As I said with the Wizard gains, I'm not entirely sure how this stuff directly translates, so I'm rather hesitant, especially since it's Geomancer.

12. Geomancer: Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep - I kinda want to change this and Kamaitachi around, but otherwise fine.

13. Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act - See above.

14. Change Demon Fire to +Oil - Demon Fire seems a bit "common" to add Oil, but considering Oil dissipates in one go, I guess it's not too bad. Might want to change Demon Fire to Dark elemental so it doesn't strength itself with the Oil its procing as currently does. Up to "you" though.

15. Geomancer: Change Blizzard to +Silence/Blind - This is mostly a clarification issue. Does this mean random Silence or Blind? Or All Silence and Blind? Or that you're just unsure? Regardless, I just now decided that All Silence & Blind would be "fair" considering how rare terrain for Blizzard is. Alternately, due to its rarity, this is pretty much the only one besides Lava Ball that I'd be comfortable with adding Stop.

16. Status: Dead: Cancel: Frog - I'm only wary of this because it kinda undermines Frog status and, more importantly, the one thing that Wizard do effectively besides "damage!" However, given that you're trying to implement Wizard otherwise changes and Frog really does need to change,  especially if it's still on Water Ball, since it's a fate worse than death, I can get behind this ultimately. Might steal this for Embargo too.

17. Status: De-Cancel: Regen - First and foremost, since it took me a while to (maybe) realize this: By "de-cancel", you mean that Dead will no longer cancel Regen, correct? Regardless, under this interpretation, this is only a "maybe" partly because I'm wary of Light Robe and P Bag. It's even more a "maybe", though, because I'm currently going to have say "no" to your request to "de-cancel" Poison. I'll explain why that is in a bit. That said, I do think its a novel, potentially interesting idea.



Again, my apologies if this comes out harsher than I intended.

Also again, I'll underline the troublesome spots if there's anything to underline in particular.


1. Squire: Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP) - I may be reading this incorrectly, especially given the time of morning and that I've been up basically 20+ hours combined with the day I've had, but you basically want to make a lesser version of the troublesome Kagesougi that currently plagues the game? Except that it actually takes the element of the weapon (read: magical gun) being used, correct? Yeah...I can't really get behind that, at least with such a cheap cost, being able to readily do more than normal power and being unavoidable & instant. Please change at least two of those aspects, especially if you're not going to advocate changing Kagesougi to close-range only.

2. Squire: Add: Concentrate (400 JP) - No. It's as simple as that, at least until you explain what you're doing with Concentrate to make it fair. Otherwise, you cannot fault me or anyone else for assuming we're talking about vanilla/1.3 Concentrate, in which case I invoke the power of Will Smith and say "Oh hell no" (followed by then then humming the Fresh Prince of Bel Air). A simple "Blind/Darkness blocks it now though!" isn't going to convince me to back its return either. That said, it being on Squire is more fair than it being on Archer, as I  think you initially advocated, but it is only slightly more so.

3. Paladin: Remove: Dia & Priest: Add: Dia (See old Paladin) - Again, "oh hell no." Priest is not getting Dia, at least as it is straight from Paladin without any modification. Priest already has a bunch going for it without you giving it access to an instant, mini-Holy that's literally only a fifth of what the "real" Holy costs yet almost half as powerful.. Honestly, Dia just needs to die, especially since you'd have to change it so much to make it fair for Priest to have that you might as well be creating something almost from whole-cloth. Additionally, all that said, as much as Paladin is horrible at using it, I'm not entirely sure it (or White Staff) should lose Dia, my "Dia should die" aside. I'd certainly rather see Paladin keep Dia and be relatively mediocre about using it than seeing Priest run rampant abusing it.

4. Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost) - No. Transfusion is fine and needs that (meager) MP cost with the wide AoE it has. This would be the second easiest of my objections to convince me otherwise on if you are so inclined, though.

5. Archer: Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP) - I can see what you're doing by making it hover between Demi and Demi 2, but those two (and Death...and Lich) already have difficulty enough seeing use as it is without having to deal with weapon-range (read: at least range 6) Demi 1.5 that's independent of Faith. Much like Dia (and Death), Execute probably just needs to die.

6. Geomancer: Change Hell Ivy to +Stop - Really not sure why you want to make the second most common Geomancy there is inflict something as detrimental as Stop. Really not sure. Geomancy is supposedly weaker than it was before, but it's not nearly weak enough to justify that, especially with Counter Flood still around. This goes back to being Slow.

7. Geomancer: Change Local Quake to +Petrify - Similarly, given that you had gotten rid of Petrify from Carve Model, I had hoped you had gotten rid of it entirely from Geomancy given what BS it is to have a Counter Flood be able to proc what's essentially instant death from what's an essentially very common set of terrain; outside of two really rare maps that are the only places you can use Lava Ball on, that shouldn't fly. Local Quake is a lesser evil, but let's get rid of Geomancy's evil once and for all and just tell Petrify to fuck off. Make this either proc Silence or, if you make Demon Fire proc Silence, proc Oil.

8. Geomancer: Change Pitfall to +Slow - With Hell Ivy going back to Slow, this can go back to being Blind. Still not sure why you changed it, but meh; not nearly as bad an idea as Hell Ivy inflicting Stop seems like it would be.

9. Bard & Dancer stuff: I can't really agree with any of these four changes. I can't see the computer using the Regen-adding Song or Poison adding Dance that well if at all, especially with such lower percentages. I can definitely still see them misusing Nameless Dance if it still has Slow in it and the enemy AI not curing the other status because it just feels that it's going to keep getting added, though I'm not sure there's a way to ever fix that unfortunately. And Nameless Song getting a much greater chance of adding Reraise and to multiple units regardless of range just sits quite wrong with me.

Just up the HP that Life Song and Wiznaibus can restore and damage respectively and make them unable to be Mimed; the other Dances would and should still be able to be Mimed (sans maybe Cheer Song and Slow Dance, but meh). Then make Nameless Song like how you want, except replace Reraise with Regen. Finally, for Nameless Dance, replace Poison with Slow, even if that doesn't entirely solve the problem there.

10. Status: De-Cancel: Poison - I sort of want to agree with this on a novelty level for the sake of "de-cancelling Regen" as well given the parity between them. However, as it stands now, I must refuse purely for one reason: Poison still has infinite duration whereas Regen does not. If Poison goes back to having finite (but lengthy) duration, then I would be more than willing to accept this for a "test run".



With all that finally said, given how long I've been typing and the fact that I need to do other things besides proofread this, I'll quickly (read: very tediously) ramble off about 10 or so changes relating to equipment and jobs (& status), each, that I didn't see. These will kinda be in order since they're coming off the top of my head, but they're hardly bound to that, especially since it's not like I (ever) know what I'm talking about with regards to ARENA (and everything else). Outside of the obvious when it comes to suggestions of formerdeathcorps I've rejected, unless I explicitly say that I'm contradicting him, please assume that my suggested changes are being considered in tandem with his:



EQUIPMENT COMMENTS GO HERE

1. Hidden Knife needs to lose Always: Transparent, turn into Ninja version of Defender - I don't care whether it gets Initial: Transparent and a bunch other of crap to ensure that the Ninja can hit like immunity to Blind or Don't Act, but it needs to lose Always: Transparent. At present, Ninja (and far less often, Thief) gets away with being the only class to essentially have access to (innate) Concentrate. This in addition to having access to innate Two Hands and thus free reign both of whatever other weapon they want to smack someone with at 100% and of yet another Support to choose from. It may not be outright broken in and of itself, but I feel like it's been egregious for a while and that no one has mentioned simply because there's been so much other unavoidable BS that happens from a longer distance, much it also coming from Ninja's ARENA skill set.

Anyway, beyond the dubious and obnoxious nature of Always: Transparent, with Hidden Knife also having +1 Speed it both ensures the Ninja gets more unmerited hits and that it completely obviates Sasuke Knife. Seriously, there is literally no reason to ever use Sasuke Knife at present. None. Nada. Zip. That too needs to change. So please just kill two annoying birds with one huge boulder and strip Hidden Knife of its current properties and let it share Defender's immunity to Don't Act, which people can hardly complain is a completely horrible trade-off, given that Item Attribute is miserly mistress.

2. Muramasa needs to not add Faith just because it hits - Faith is a rather powerful status to be adding to people, especially on a weapon that's already rather powerful with more than double-digit WP. Considering you're building around it if you're using it, the risk of it back-firing is fairly minimal, especially with all the damage backing it. As such, it seems like the Faith status should happen, at most, 50% of the time. 33% may be since 25% is perhaps too low, but definitely not 100%.

(Gokuu Rod probably similarly needs to change, if only for parity considering I don't anyone has ever used it given how horrible it still is and counter-intuitive to all the classes that equip it initially. That's probably for the best, though, given how horribly unfair towards most magical classes Innocent still is, but I digress.)

But, yeah, there currently needs to be reason to use Katana besides Muramasa, Bizen Boat (fine), Asura (my comment about formerdeathcorp's Kotetsu), Chirijiraden and, maybe, Masamune. Doing this will slightly help, though admittedly the "problem" otherwise lies with the other Katana and I'm not sure how to fix any of those.

3. Either (most) Guns need be Forced Two Hands or Archers need to lose Shields innately - Given my choice between the two, I lean towards the former given the latter kinda screws with crossbows as well, though given that I agree with most of formerdeathcorps's changes for Crossbows, that might not be such a bit deal since they go a long way towards making those more usable. Still, these options aren't mutually exclusive.

4. Platina Dagger needs to trigger Climhazzard slighty less - My view of this maybe somewhat skewed due to Hidden Knife, but honestly, it seems like Climhazzard would be more fair triggering only 33% of the time despite the weapon's power given that a) the proc is unavoidable, b) the other weapon used is usually more powerful since almost no one ever uses this without Two Swords and c) the Climhazzard's damage depends more on the user's teammates than the meager WP holding its normal damage back, Ninja's speed causing Ninja to charge ahead aside. Not really a huge change, though don't think it needs one.

5. Main Gauche can probably stand to lose 1 WP and 5% W-EV - Self-explanatory given that 40% W-EV seems pretty damn ridiculous and that there's really no reason to use any of the other Knives/Daggers that can't be used with Two Swords at present. Formerdeathcorps' (and others') proposed change to combine Assassin Dagger & Throwing Dagger takes care of those two and this would go a decent way towards making the other two or three none-Two-Swords Daggers more usable.

6. Diversify the "Head-bands" more please - Decrease Ribbon's HP to 60 and decrease Barrete's HP to 70 while letting it block Sleep given that a) Ribbon doesn't and b) Confusion & Chicken don't exist anymore. I really can't remember the last time I ever saw anyone use Barette or Cachusha even before they became Monk-exclusive. Perhaps let Cachusha keep its 80 HP, lose a bit of its 80 MP and gain immunity to Undead, Charm, Innocent & Faith (basically sharing Item Attribute with Crystal Armor) since it honestly needs to block something if the other two block so much; meanwhile Ribbon loses both its immunities to Undead and Charm to stop the aforementioned monopoly of serious status.

7. Bow Gun becomes Burning Bow or Debilitator, a Crossbow that adds Oil - I'm not sure if Oil should be added 50% of the time. However, it seems like it should be at least 33% of the time, especially given that its dispersed on what hit and that I'm not asking for Bow Gun's WP to be increased. Not sure what you're going to do with Short Edge, but no one's ever really used that (well), especially once Hidden Knife became busted.

8. Do...something with Salty Rage - Add Initial: Reraise or Block: Poison & Blind or a ridiculous around of P-EV or...something in addition to its Initial: Berserk. I honestly don't care. All I know is that at present there is still no reason to use this and there hardly was in the first place, at least without Concentrate. Alternately, you could just kill it and do something else with its spot, which would probably a lot more worthwhile. I'd probably another Absorbing accessory, but I need more time to think about this....

9. If Reflect Ring is to Block Berserk, then Defense Ring should Block Silence instead of Berserk - Given formerdeathcorps suggested two more Berserk-blocking accessory and that Defense Ring still sucks, this seems for the best. It gives mages another Silence-blocking accessory that doesn't outright obviate Magic Ring yet it is still usable, especially since it gives them P-EV and M-EV as well, which they normally have to outright eschew to block Silence. Please do this.

10. Let 108 Gems Block Oil instead of Blood Suck - Given that I'm kinda rattling these off the top of my head, that Blood Suck doesn't exist anymore and that no accessory currently blocks Oil...yeah. It's the least you can do considering pretty much no one has used it ever since ARENA started.


JOB COMMENTS GO HERE

1. Please make at least Raise 2 Holy Element - That way Cursed Ring, Consecration and Seal Evil can actually be worth using. I would suggest doing the same with Raise as well and slightly lowering the success rate of both now that they can be boosted with things such as Healing Staff or the aforementioned 108 Gems (or Faith Rod or formerdeathcorps' proposed Holy March). As also mentioned earlier in this thread (for different reasons), yes, this kinda screws over the two pieces of Holy-blocking equipment, but those are honestly used so rarely as to not really matter.

2. Please make something else Water Element - It was a bit...jarring to come back after like three or so months and see that Water is still horribly underrepresented in terms of being able to use it as an attack as well to absorb it. While I'm yet trying to work out absorption of it, at the very least you could make strengthening of it worthwhile, especially when at least one of the Bios could easily become Water or Earth Dragon easily could become that "Big Wave" I was suggesting....

3. Give Poison to Oracle & Beguile to Wizard - You can potentially take formerdeathcorps' advice alongside this and also expand Poison's AoE. However, I would prefer they be mutually exclusive/competing ideas considering the amount of other changes going on/being suggested. Of course, given the amount of changes going on, perhaps it's best if Poison stays with Wizard for now just to see the new AoE works. If it doesn't (or "you" don't want to consider that change at all), then please consider this one. I honestly feel like they would better served in each other's jobs. Well, at least Poison would and it would kinda stupid for Poison and Beguile to be in the same set, so....

4. Make Bad Luck Persevering - This was suggested by formerdeathcorps a bit ago and I agreed with it, which is why I'm surprised he didn't bring it up in his list above, but whatever. Might want to up the CT to 5 if that's the case, though. Not sure.

5. Make Demi 2 less damaging in exchange for being more usable - Demi 2 should perhaps at most do 49% considering that I'm slightly merciful if people want to use Light Robes and P Bags and not suffer instant death (like Cursed Ring units against the much more frequent Raise 2 currently have to). Regardless, making it deal 50% or less in exchange for giving it CT of 4 or 5, MP of 32, and changing its X to at least 70% seems like it would get it much more use.

6. Combine Insult and Solution? - Something else that formerdeathcorps had brought up a bit ago and that I agreed with given the computer's lack of use of Innocent status as it is. However, that's perhaps not a bad thing given that there's only one item that blocks against Innocent at present and that's freaking armor, which is not something that Mages would be wearing in most instances. As such, I suggest a solution...to Solution. Change it into "Hush" and just have it add Silence. Give it Insult's current hit-rate while Insult gets Solution's current hit rate; I would readily accept Insult's X becoming 40 given Berserk's infinite duration and denial of Reactions and certain Movements, though in that case, I would ask that Blackmail (or Persuade) be made slightly more accurate in return.

(Preach can stay as is for now, if only because formerdeathcorps said he wanted to test something and I have no idea what the hell he's getting at. Same goes for Heretic.)

7. Slightly weaken Auto Potion - Although people tend to still be conflicted over what to do with Hi-Potion and X-Potion, I think that I've seen pretty much everyone agree that Auto Potion heals a bit too much. Can we just go back to it healing vanilla Hi-Potion levels of damage and thus only restoring 70 HP? Did "we" already try that? I honestly can't remember, but we should perhaps try again.

8. Slightly up Cyclops and Slyph's status procs - ...Cyclops is Holy now? Hunh. I...forgot? Or did I even know? That certainly makes me hold back on suggestion which might have spoiled somomething.... ...Regardless, it and Silf can probably stand to have their procs go up to about 33%, especially if you decide to use formerdeathcorps suggestion about Odin.

9. Slightly lower Bizen Boat and Murasame's X - They seem like regularly they deal a bit too much MP damage or heal a bit too much HP, especially since they do so instantly and, in the case of Bizen Boat (or Undead confronted with Murasame), aren't subject to M-EV. While I don't think Bizen Boat should become subject to M-EV, it could probably stand to become MA*8 rather easily; similarly, Murasame can probably stand to become MA*9. This is pretty low on the list, though.

10. Esuna and Stigma Magic should no longer cure Charm - As someone who likes status, it's really frustrating seeing a unit that is otherwise rightly suspectible to Charm often instantly break its own Charm status "accidentally" by using either of the aforementioned abilities on itself. That they are both multi-target, basically 100% accurate and, in the case of Stigma Magic, instant, just poor salt over those wounds. If you have to lessen Charm's duration slightly because of this, then I would understand. However, there's more than enough ways to block Charm already available without screwing it over further by making it trivialized by two really common techniques. If you feel like there should be an ability that gets rid of Charm (besides Refute) without damage, then I guess you could make it so Squire's Heal gets rid of it (though then I'd argue it shouldn't be self-targeting, which ultimately weakens it) or, better yet, just make a new ability to do. (Give it to, what, Paladin?)


Ugh. My hands. My use of hours. My relative lack of sleep. I'll try to make more formal suggestions when I'm slightly less useless than I am now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 12, 2012, 12:08:53 am
Quote from: The DamnedPlease make at least Raise 2 Holy Element


Would this make Raise 2 fail to resurrect dead units that null Holy?   If so, holy-nulling equipment will be used much less frequently (which is a shame, as Small Mantle will get a lot better if it can help its wearer evade ninjutsu and summon magic).  How did 1.3 prevent Phoenix Downs from killing undead units?  Is there a passive modifier we can apply to reduce healing/resurrection damage here?

I like most of your suggestions, although I'm more inclined to remove Init: Berserk from all equipment and treat the status as a strictly negative, healable one.  Maybe that's too boring.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 12, 2012, 12:13:42 am
Quote from: Fantactic1316 on May 10, 2012, 11:20:54 pmHow about if all three magic guns became 13 WP (which is what the Ice Brand has, and it's kind of the obvious choice for Grand Cross on a Paladin) and the Y values are raised to make up the difference for anyone who uses the melee ability of the guns?


I think there's something else you're not realizing here - the reason their WP is offset as it is now and proposed to be 13/12/11 is because they don't cast the Level 3 Spell's Q value as set in the Battle Mechanics Guide by Aerostar (if you look there), but they cast the physical Level 3 spells from the Wizard's skillset.  In this case, they cast the Arena-versions of Fire, Ice, Bolt, meaning the Spell's Y values being changed aren't options.  You'd be upsetting the balance of the entire Wizard skillset unnecessarily.  13/12/11 at 100% Tier 3 Spell proc is the same output in terms of the Attack command as now roughly, maybe a bit better, but that's not a big deal because Magic Guns aren't the best for Attack damage anyway.  It is the best overall fix for maintaining the status quo and upsetting as little of the overall balance as possible while fixing the immediate problems.

Quote from: Shintroy on May 11, 2012, 12:31:22 am
So how about that weapon that only deals MP damage


There's already 3 weapons slated to being added that are strictly better than this in every way while still damaging MP

Quote from: The Damned on May 11, 2012, 07:04:25 pmPOST


@19%: The default hit rate for procs in FFT is 19%, not 25%.

@Mantles: Right now, the max evasion a Mantle can give is 24.  The Mantles FDC, myself, FFM, and some others worked out only cap at 30.  It is not very much "higher" at all, as you max evasion stack is only maybe 2-3% higher in the long run due to how evasion stacks work, it was just made more rounded and generally less awful considering every Accessory is a high-power item, and all the current Arena mantles... erm... suck, outside of the current Dracula Mantle, which is still terribly underpowered compared to other Accessories.

@Cheer Up: It's being removed because it's awful.

@Nurse: Yeah, it would still heal 33% HP.

@Blizzard: It means it adds both, if possible.

@Wild Blow: This skill makes any weapon into an Axe attack, basically.  Also, I hope you realize the problem solely resides with the "troublesome" Kagesougi is the 17 WP Blaze Gun that this set of changes addresses.  The skill is pretty awful otherwise.

@Concentrate: Concentrate sucks. Your average enemy unit has 15-20% Evasion at best, resulting in a net increase of 15-20% physical damage.  What adds even MORE Physical damage than that?  Attack UP.  Evasion in Arena is actually really shitty in the long term (something this update is looking to address with better Shields/Mantles, more M-EV affected skills, etc.), and all Concentrate does is give non-Ninjas/Thieves some options for cracking bulky Main Gauche users at the cost of their long-term DPS v everyone else who barely has any evasion to begin with.  The reality is, Concentrate is not that good when you're paying 650 JP after Squire overhead and your Support slot to use it.  It's also worth remembering that Blind in Arena overrides Concentrate (and Transparent) on top from being generally ridiculous and highly crippling to Attack-focused units and is something any evasion-dedicated team should be making use of anyway.

@Transfusion: You do realize Transfusion is generally worthless outside of fringe users and weaker than Murasame in almost every way even when in the hands of said fringe users, right?

@Execute: It still only works on Critical HP units.  This actually will take a lot of thought as to why this change was devised and I don't intend to spill the beans.  Once you figure out what it is, you will totally be like "FUCKING BRILLIANT."  But don't spoil it, let everyone else have the satisfaction of figuring it out for themselves too. :)

@Geomancy: The point of this set of updates is to make Geomancy overall better in the following update, but also remove the random bits where Geomancy can just score 4 OHKOs through Petrify on like half the maps in the game.  Current Geomancy sucks.  The buffs to general M-EV options, the addition to M-EV to Ninjitsu, and the buffing of its procs should hopefully resolve this.  As for your question to the stat buffs, it translates into Geomancer getting 1 more PA and MA in addition to a noticeable sum of MP.  It's also supposed to get 1 Jump, but FDC forgot.

@Bards/Dancers: Those songs still add their HP/MP, they just add those statuses on top of what they already did, and they're the two performing skills the AI loves to abuse anyway, so AI priority isn't affected.  The Regen/Poison are just small bonuses to make their long term use better, and in Wiznaibus' case allow it to be used without being 100% crippled by Auto Potion.  Fun fact: Another reason for these procs is to make Miming them better.  Oftentimes when we talk changes, we tend to (or at least I tend to try to push towards) changes that result in cool teams, such as Mime teams, or teams that can make use of the Execute change, etc.  Cool fringe teams keep the game fun, and it's very clear Arena has evolved long past the times of Mimes with Life Song or Dancers with Wiznaibus winning everything.

@Poison: Again, that was considered, and it's the point.  Poison's infinite duration allows it to suppress sandbagging from Phoenix Down and Wish, giving it an actual role in Arena as a powerful anti-sandbag status instead of something that's just there to annoy you sometimes.  You know, something you actually need to consider when making a team - if you rely on only Phoenix Down or Wish to revive your units, you better bring Burn Heal Antidote, or some way for those units to ensure Poison doesn't re-kill them right off.  It becomes a powerful tool for silencing rez loops and justifies the AI priority.  Regen mostly gets this privilege for parity reasons, and because it makes for more cool reasons to use Regen on those same Phoenix Down and Wish loving teams - their critical units can potentially get themselves out of Critical through a pre-death Regen and Move-HP UP, and Regen doubles as the best weapon against Poison.  In the end, both Statuses become leagues better and boring/lengthy rez-loop battles have a status that can silence them easily.

@Hidden Knife: See - Concentrate.  Consider it a class perk - Evasion is mostly negligible, and this allows Ninjas / Two Swords users to break bulky Main Gauche healers (sup DERP).  Sasuke Knife does kinda suck, but that's a matter for Sasuke Knife, not Hidden Knife.

@Muramasa: People don't even USE this goddamn thing anymore... :|

@Magic Guns: Again, you do realize the only problem is coming from Blaze Gun's 17 WP which is very clearly getting fixed, right?

@Bow Gun: I forgot this earlier.  It procs the Armor Break ability at 50%... which with a Bow Gun, has maybe a 30% chance of actually hitting.  .5*.3=.15%, less chance of breaking the target's armor than a weapon that casts Shellbust Stab at the default 19% proc rate, and it doesn't deal damage until subsequent hits, which in subsequent hits isn't a big deal since the base WP is still shit and can't be boosted by Two Hands or Two Swords.

@Salty Rage: Concentrate's coming back, sooo...

@Raise 2: The formula doesn't accept Elements, and making Cursed Ring immediately obviate every single primary weakness that comes with being Undead is a terrible idea.  If you pay more attention to the changes listed here, Undead teams got a TON of buffs.  They're just not the ones you'd expect.

@Water: Elements get unequal representation.  Lack of parity is what makes competitive games flow.  You also miss the advantage to Water not having too much representation - most enemies won't bother to do anything to block it.  Compare this to Fire or Dark, two of the most powerful Elements - but guess what, almost everyone wears friggin' Black Costumes to block them.

@Light Robe/P Bag: Really, the Weak: Dark shit on those could easily be dropped.  It's a completely pointless debuff as those items are generally meager in use.  Otherwise, as for the oneshot kill - "thems the breaks", risk v reward. If it's gonna be a risk, make it a real risk, don't weaken Demi 2 for the sake of giving them a meager infinitesimal chance of living with 1 HP.

Insult+Solution: Dear god no.  It's of note that (assuming Solution is flagged correctly, I don't have a patched Arena to look), the AI WILL use Solution, just not proactively.  It will use it as an idle-turn sometimes, but mainly to block an incoming spell.  It treats Faith the same way, and currently these two skills are the only ways to get Faith and Innocent without strings attached, so there's no reason to touch them if you know how the AI actually prioritizes their use.

@Auto-Potion: There's nothing really wrong with the 80 HP heal, though.  The only time it nulls damage out entirely is when your team has shit for offensive capabilities.  This actually brings me to the big issue I have with your grievance list and a big problem I had with Arena in general when I started bothering to give a shit about it - the approach to handling every problem is NERF NERF NERF, and the nerfing is almost always going way too far.  This is why a team like Y U SO DERP was able to (and in large is still able to) essentially terrorize Arena despite using a meager amount of otherwise garbage skills that are either so weak they CAN'T be nerfed or fine in the hands of literally everyone else.   Everything got nerfed way too far down, and constantly nerfing everything down just leads to making things even easier.  Since I've been pushing for Arena changes, you can probably notice the opposite trend if you thumb through the changelogs - while things that direly needed to get nerfed (Chirjiraden that one time, Blaze Gun this time, etc.) got nerfed - the main trend is to not weaken the strong, but to empower the weak.  You can see this general trend in this set of changes too, the weaker skills, items, and classes were for the most part buffed in order to solve balance issues, instead of directly addressing the issue with what would likely be an over-nerfing.  There is an art to realizing how to address problems from the side instead of the front, so to speak.





@FDC: Geomancer needs its +1 Jump noted.  There was something else I was going to mention, but I forgot in replying to The Damned's TL;DR, so I'll post it later.  EDIT: I remembered one of the things.  Holy should be subject to M-EV, that was also something we discussed before and would serve as a small nerf that would flow well with the rest of the changes upcoming. I still say we need to consider letting Echo Grass cure Berserk as well.  It needs some means of being cured, similar to the Undead status.  It's a powerful, debilitating status that only the Item skillset can cure and that can sometimes be used as a pseudo-buff or team building core otherwise, and with it becoming more prevalent as a negative status as well as a positive one, it should have one viable means of being healed outside of Refute.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 12, 2012, 02:55:53 am
(Sigh. I proofread all of that thrice and I notice at least one more typo. Ugh....)

Oh hey, Raven. Good to see you're still around. Why must you make me multi-quote at you first time I see you again, though?

Quote from: Gaignun on May 12, 2012, 12:08:53 am
Would this make Raise 2 fail to resurrect dead units that null Holy?   If so, holy-nulling equipment will be used much less frequently (which is a shame, as Small Mantle will get a lot better if it can help its wearer evade ninjutsu and summon magic).  How did 1.3 prevent Phoenix Downs from killing undead units?  Is there a passive modifier we can apply to reduce healing/resurrection damage here?


Yeah, it would unfortunately mean that Small Mantle (and Diamond Shield) would block Raise 2, though like I said, I've thought that Cancel: Earth & Holy was...underwhelming and I wouldn't mind it changing to something else. You make a good point about Small Mantle, though.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 12, 2012, 12:08:53 amI like most of your suggestions, although I'm more inclined to remove Init: Berserk from all equipment and treat the status as a strictly negative, healable one.  Maybe that's too boring.


Oh, I'd be fine with Initial: Berserk being removed too. Salty Rage sucks. It just sucks slightly less with Concentrate around.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 12, 2012, 12:13:42 amPOSTERS TOAST POSTS.


1. 19%: Oh, right. I forgot about that discovery.

2. Mantles: Meh. If you guys are confident it wouldn't be a problem, then I can get behind since I agreed that mantles need a boost.

3. Cheer Up: Just because it's awful? Okay....

4. Nurse: Good to know.

5. Blizzard: Okay, cool.

6. Wild Blow: If you say so. I really don't see why it needs to unevadable, though.

7. Concentrate: Is it really "equal" to 15-20% more damage if you would utterly miss those times with Concentrate? Also, it's not like it's difficult to block Blind, especially when it comes universally available with Initial: Reraise. However, as you know I've admittedly never liked Concentrate and it's not nearly as bad as it would be as an innate (on anything other than Mime and even then it's iffy).

8. Transfusion: Considering how Murasame goes off MA, I don't see how it utterly outstrips Transfusion on units that don't need to worry about MA since its solely dependent upon max HP. I could perhaps understand halving the MP cost to 3, but getting rid of all together seems a bit much. Not that it will break anything. I'm just not sure it's necessary, though as you can see, I argue that Murasame can stand to be slightly weakened as it is.

9. Execute: Oh, so it's still restricted to Critical-only people? Then I have no problem with that change. As for why it does 40% HP now, I suppose I can guess, but considering it was almost never used before and I don't feel like doing math right now since I have a bunch of stuff I still need to type up, I suppose I'll just have to ponder it.

10. Geomancy: Oh, I understand all that, though it's nice to have knowledge of what the stats are, including the missing Jump +1. I just think "we" should probably get rid of Petrify in Geomancy in general and avoid Stop on the extremely common Hell Ivy, if only because of Counter Flood. It certainly helps that Local Quake is indeed less common than Carve Model--though it's still moderately common--and that it's actually Earth element, meaning it can be "Guarded" against by Float, but I don't see why it should stick around at all when there's other, less egregious negative status to use. I concur that Elemental has been weakened, but I don't think it's quite as weak as some of these changes make it seem to be, especially when you're boosting the stats of Geomancer itself (again).

11. Bard/Dancers: Oh, so Life Song and Wiznaibus still do their restoration and damage too? Things like that really need to be noted. If that's the case, then I suppose I'm fine with those. I still can't say I much agree the suggestions for Nameless Song due to Reraise or Nameless Dance due to Slow's priority to the AI.

12. Poison: Oh, I realized that when I said the infinite duration thing. It just rubbed me the wrong way. The way you explain it makes it seem a lot more palatable though, even if I don't really want Chemist to gain yet more power. Well, that and all of the equipment that blocks Poison, including the Always: Regen ones technically, are presently of dubious quality sans maybe Diamond Armor.

13. Hidden Knife: Meh. I suppose the "class perk" bugs me when Ninja already gets so much else between innate Two Swords and Ninjutsu currently being unavoidable. Perhaps with Ninjutsu becoming subject to M-EV and things with M-EV (that aren't Shields) becoming a worth a damn, my view of that will soften. I'll still probably consider it obnoxious given my loathing of Concentrate, though. But, yeah, Sasuke Knife's problems are largely its own. Still....

14. Muramasa: I'm aware of that. It still probably needs to change though.

15. Magic Guns: Uh, yes? What exactly is this in response to that you thought I didn't realize that? The shield comment? Or...?

16. Bow Gun: Oh, so it procs Shellbust Stab rather than just Armor Break from Archer like I thought it did? In a way that makes me dislike it even more. I'm obviously missing why Bow Gun would only have a 30% chance of hitting as well? Are we assuming Arrow Guard being ubiquitous despite your "most teams only have 15%-20% P-EV" comment to advocate Concentrate coming back? I ask that not because they're mutually exclusive; I just want to be sure.

17. Salty Rage: As I said above to Gaignun, I would still rather it die as is, at least with the AI's current treatment of Berserk (even if Stigma Magic and Esuna indeed no longer cure it despite what the Master Guide says).

18. Raise 2: Oh, right. I forgot that formula doesn't take elements. Damn. Oh well. As for Undead being buffed implicitly, I'm not seeing much at present besides their being immune to Execute (still) and to the new Throwing Knife's secondary effect. I'm not really sure what status interactions ARENA has kept if that's what you're getting at.

19. Water: I understand that. I'm not asking for parity in representation with any of the other elements. I am literally only asking Water to get one more absorbing-equipment so that you can finally build Water-Absorb teams since you've never been able since ARENA started and more attacking representation in one or two more abilities or weapons. That's it.

As it stands now, despite its scarcity supposedly allowing for it to be the theoretical lurking scourge of the elemental world, it has only one good weapon to its name in Whale Whisker since no one bothers with Coral Sword since Water is literally the only element that can't currently be used with Grand Cross because the only absorb is a piece of Clothing. Similarly, Aspergillum doesn't ever get to strengthen anything besides Suiton (if that ever gets used) since there basically is nothing else to strengthen: {Suiton, Leviathan, Water Ball, Quicksand}. (EDIT: I just realized that Aspergillum could perhaps make decent use of Grand cross, if only on Ninja and Geomancer.)

Water has only four whole skills to its name, two of which can't even be done on command and none of which can be AoE Absorbed like literally every other element because Leviathan only hits enemies and, again, Grand Cross isn't worth abusing with Water as it is right now since there's nothing to absorb it. Yet Water is in a three-way tie for second place when it comes to elements outright get nulled the most with Wind (which has 7 skills, all of which are actually usable even if three of them are also Geomancy) and Holy (which is obviously usable). It actually probably ends up more likely to blocked than Holy presently due to the current Vanish Mantle being a lot more usable than the current Small Mantle in addition Magic Ring seeing a lot less use. As it is, Water isn't the "secret killer" you're making out to be and that it should be. It sucks and generally isn't worth using except as part of a mere variation of an independent powerful set of skills (Ninjutsu), which doesn't prove anything in its favor considering how many people still only use Meiton.

20. Light Robe/P Bag: You're right. Fuck mercy. 50% HP damage Demi 2 it is.

21. Insult + Solution: I know I wrote a lot, but you, uh, seemed to have missed the part shortly thereafter where I concluded/realized that mixing the two was indeed a terrible idea. If the AI actually uses Solution, then fine. No need to change it. I have little problem with leaving it be at present if the AI actually will use it (even if it's still probably largely inferior to Thief's Heretic from what you're saying).

22. Auto Potion: So noted, even if I personally didn't think it was huge deal, at least compared to the people were thinking about the other, active potions. Just figured I would comment on it since I blabbing about everything else.

23. Nerfing: As for that, well, it's not like I don't realize that nerfing things just makes it so that something else essentially becomes "top tier" simply because something else always ends up on top. I just prefer to weaken things and build from there if necessary rather than overall strength a bunch of things at once and walk into a potentially greater clusterfuck--for lack of a better word since I loathe "quagmire"--that can be more difficult to pinpoint the worsened issue and would require some nerfing anyway. And it's not like I'm against strengthening things, otherwise I would have said that I outright rejected much of formerdeathcorps' lists for the things that weren't obviously problems like Blaze Gun. So I will concede that you have a point here, as usually do, but I don't much agree with it in this instance.


All that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

1. Hidden Knife vs. Sasuke Knife: So, given what Raven said, I suppose I can begrudgingly let Hidden Knife keep its Always: Transparent since it's not like Hidden Knife itself does that much damage (though that was never the point). However, I would humbly request that it lose its Speed +1, especially since it can be used with Two Swords (as it "should" be). That let Sasuke Knife become the sole Ninja Blade(/Knife/Sword/Whatever) that had a speed boost. It would probably need more than that, but I'm not sure how many Item Attributes you have left and Sasuke Knife would still be sharing one with Sprint Shoes when it comes to even just Speed +1, so....

Not-So-Ninja EDIT: It just occurred to me (while properly proofreading this mess of a post) after I woke up that the "best" solution to this may just be to treat Sasuke Knife like the big Knife it is. As such, I would move for indeed taking away the Speed +1 from Hidden Knife and giving Sasuke Knife Speed +1 and Move +1. This would mean that Sprint Shoes also had Speed +1 and Move +1, but considering that almost no one is going to use those things as they are now, that's basically a bonus. Sasuke Knife could perhaps also use a bit more W-EV or even more point of WP as well.

2. Turn 108 Gems into Coral Ring: As I ranted at Raven above, there is seriously no excuse for Water to still be the only element that you can't make an absorption team out of...though you can make one that nullifies both it and Wind completely for some reason. (Earth and Holy too now that I think about and all four if you're feeling "adventurous".)

So, let it Absorb: Water and Block: Oil, Poison and Frog given that something also needs to block Oil and Absorbing Water isn't nearly as powerful as Strengthening every element, so this is actually weaker/less radical than the 108 Gems solution I was proposing, especially since it doesn't block Undead anymore.

3. Let Salty Rage Strengthen All Elements Alongside Other "Fun" Things: While I'd much rather get rid of damage boost that Salty Rage tries and fails to get with Initial: Berserk because it's ultimately too limiting in its options, adding Strengthen All Elements to it isn't necessarily mutually exclusive. However, I'd much rather Initial: Berserk die as a whole, especially since it doesn't interest anything interesting a strategy (unless you count handicaps interesting, in which there's this Stone Gun I'd like to sell you...).

As such, I'd say make somewhat a mix between Chantage and the current 108 Gems (that no one uses) and give it the properties of Initial: Regen, Block: Poison & Oil and Strengthen All Elements. I'm pretty sure we'll need more things to block Poison that aren't dubious if it's going to be an infinite duration status that doesn't go away even upon dying and is going to be added more things. We just need something else to block Oil so there's a choice since that will be more widespread than the Undead that 108 Gems lost (and N-Kai Armlet is proposed to have). Initial: Regen, even surviving past Dead and not being able to gotten rid of with Poison, shouldn't be too annoying while at the same time it should actually be useful. Same with Strengthen All elements.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shintroy on May 13, 2012, 12:39:35 am
Lemme know when there's a MP only damaging weapon thnx
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on May 13, 2012, 11:34:16 am
Quote from: The Damned on May 12, 2012, 02:55:53 am
16. Bow Gun: Oh, so it procs Shellbust Stab rather than just Armor Break from Archer like I thought it did? In a way that makes me dislike it even more. I'm obviously missing why Bow Gun would only have a 30% chance of hitting as well? Are we assuming Arrow Guard being ubiquitous despite your "most teams only have 15%-20% P-EV" comment to advocate Concentrate coming back? I ask that not because they're mutually exclusive; I just want to be sure.


I think he meant that chance to hit with armor break would be smaller then 19% percent. Considering that armor break is % based skill. Bow gun would be actually pretty badass to use afterwards.

About 19%, here's legit question, why not just change proc chance to 25%? I mean this would boost elements and a lot other skills.

Transfusion
Why does it need mp cost, it already costs hp?

Poison
Kinda cool status. Bad thing about it is that it will just help raise 2, a skill that I think should just die at this point.

Dia vs ninjutsu ton's(Meiton etc.)
Dia is a skill that has basically just different damage modifiers then ton's, so why does Dia have lower Y then ton's? I personally would have Dia and ton's with 9-8 Y so they would not make too little amount of damage, and not too high.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 13, 2012, 11:48:43 am
Suggestion: Take the vert off of Masamune and give it to Haste. Masamune would be significantly less broken at zero vert and Haste would look a bit more appealing by comparison if it had at least 1 vert.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on May 13, 2012, 12:39:35 am
Lemme know when there's a MP only damaging weapon thnx


Lol I forgot to reply to this.

We're adding 3 STRICTLY BETTER WEAPONS, we went over this in IRC.

Quote from: The Damned on May 12, 2012, 02:55:53 amPOST.


@Wild Blow: It trades being evadable with having highly unreliable damage output.  It should have a noticeable MP cost so that it's not easily spammed but otherwise, that's the main reason.

@Transfusion: A lot more units have good MA than good HP.  Good MA is also more likely to win a game than good HP on average.  You also forget that Transfusion already has a cost in HP that requires both Regen and Move-HP UP to be stacked together to offset since it doesn't heal the caster, another disadvantage it has against Murasame.  It is already far more build-dependent than Murasame, and its only real bonus is being ally-only targeted, which is only meagerly useful.  Even if you weaken Murasame, it is still far better and generally more usable than Transfusion.  Removing the MP cost from Transfusion makes it a bit more level to Murasame (if only a tiny bit, Murasame is still leagues better for the most part) and lets Paladins use it with MP-screwing their other skills due to their low MP totals.

@Geomancy: The stats of Geomancer are irrelevant because the best Geomancy users aren't Geomancers, they're Bards/Dancers.  The stats on Geomancer handle the class not sucking but don't do anything about the skillset.

@Nameless Song: Technically removing Haste makes it weaker, because Haste is still one of the best buffs to get from it.  The reason Haste is removed is to stop the AI from doing NOTHING BUT Nameless Song, which is how it currently operates.  And when the AI is shitting both Haste and Reraise onto people like candy... those teams still don't win.  Partially because the asshole with Nameless Song won't stop singing, but still.  You highly overrate this one.  Reraise becomes more common, but the lack of Hasting makes this a dubious benefit.  The main benefit will be Nameless Song using teams will actually have units that can be more than Nameless Song bots.

@Poison: I say "Antidote" as a joke. -.-  Chemist actually gets weaker from this, because now you'll need to spend even more JP on the Item skillset itself to get Antidote, forego Antidote, or forego something else, and if you DO get Antidote, you get to deal with the AI randomly throwing Antidotes when it should be doing other stuff.  If anything, the Esuna / Stigma Magic / Regen users are the ones who gain the most here, because they can handle the threat without additional investment or risky AI derps.

@Magic Guns: You merely proposed a huge pile of debuffs to Magic Guns beyond the WP decrements, when it wasn't Magic Guns that were even the issue, merely an interaction between one Gun and one skill that's fixed by a simple WP and proc adjustment.  If anything, the other uses of Magic Guns need buffs if anything - which is the other thing the 100% Tier 3 + 13-12-11 WP setup does, buffs their far weaker uses while making their one problematic one about on par with other weapons.

@Bow Gun: No... I mean a 50% Armor Break proc has a lower net chance to hit the target than a 19% Shellbust Stab proc because Armor Break with a Bow Gun has a terrible hit rate.  It's essentially a 15-20% proc after you compute Armor Break's hit rate, that then becomes a Double Shot weapon afterward, which isn't a big deal due to Bow Gun's low WP.

@Undead: Not talking about status interactions, nope.

@Nerfing: I'm just pointing out back when I decided to give Arena a look over (1.32ish?), it was a quagmire of things in the opposite direction - everything sucked, and I was able to make an essentially unbeatable team out of what were otherwise the worst items and abilities in Arena.  DERP is still really high up there in part because I'm not a fucking idiot and it abuses Speed ties, interactions, has tons of contingency plans, etc., but each version makes it harder and harder for teams like that to win v the entire field - because the entire field is becoming less and less of a quagmire of shit in terms of both teams and classes/equipment.  In a PVP game like Arena, one of the most important things is to allow a large number of strategies either competitive validity or the illusion of competitive validity, which are both much more easily obtained by pulling the bottom up than by pulling the top down, so to speak.  The latter is honestly what's most prone to making a 1-strategy metagame.


All that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

@Sprint Shoes: +1 Move +1 Speed oh god no.  For someone who likes to nerfstick so much, you must realize how ridiculous that is.

Quote from: Shade on May 13, 2012, 11:34:16 amAbout 19%, here's legit question, why not just change proc chance to 25%? I mean this would boost elements and a lot other skills.


Most procs are 25% now if you thumb through the Master Guide.  Note it's usually only the best-of-the-best procs like Holy that still fall in at 19%. 

Quote from: Shade on May 13, 2012, 11:34:16 amDia vs ninjutsu ton's(Meiton etc.)
Dia is a skill that has basically just different damage modifiers then ton's, so why does Dia have lower Y then ton's? I personally would have Dia and ton's with 9-8 Y so they would not make too little amount of damage, and not too high.


It's the difference in magic users vs physical users mostly.  MA stacks higher than PA naturally due to how their abilities work (which is why MA*WP weapons generally have slightly lower WP than PA*WP ones), so MA*6*Faith is going to be better than PA*6*Faith always simply because the MA version can do more damage.  Though, it's more because the instant, single-target damage like Ninjitsu just isn't what mages do.  Dia serves its own purpose (especially with being moved into the Priest's skillset) by being a magician's means of anti-sandbag and a source of Blind that can greatly increase their lifespan against melee units, but it's not equal to Ninjitsu because it's not meant to serve the same purpose.  Intentional lack of parity.  Same reason a spell like Comet only does 100 damage.

Quote from: Fantactic1316 on May 13, 2012, 11:48:43 am
Suggestion: Take the vert off of Masamune and give it to Haste. Masamune would be significantly less broken at zero vert and Haste would look a bit more appealing by comparison if it had at least 1 vert.


Giving some vert to the Haste spells is more than reasonable.  They're not terrible, but they're not super leet awesome.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on May 13, 2012, 01:51:57 pm
i just want to share my concern with ninjitsu spells like fuiton  and meiton.

I realy disslike an instant very high dmg/recovery spell that even allows a decend amount of evasion/Hp.

Plus i disslike the symbiosis with innocence
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pierce on May 13, 2012, 03:27:38 pm
I'm not a big fan of Nurse adding Regen instead of healing. Nor am I a fan of Life Song adding Regen. At the moment with Masamune being so popular and so frequently used by the AI, Regen is quite common. Yes I know Masamune is seeing a nerf, but that won't stop it from still being used somewhat frequently (Instant 100% Haste and Regen, why not?). Adding 2 more skills that add Regen is just going to make it annoyingly common.
Also, it's not like Nurse needs a change right now. And life song heals less than 60HP per turn (assuming the song goes off twice before the unit acts) and the unit is forced to be performing in that time, losing their evasion.

I'm also not really a big fan of Weak:Element from shields. I mean c'mon, it's a shield, it should really only be helping you, not potentially hurting you.

Is it possible that Esuna gets its JP cost dropped to 250? I know people have been saying they would like to see more status healing instead of relying on Raise2 to heal the unit (I think it was FDC that said this). Dropping the JP cost by 30 makes it an even 250 and makes it an easier addition to a team.

Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...

These are just my two cents.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 13, 2012, 03:49:30 pm
Quote from: Pierce on May 13, 2012, 03:27:38 pm
Did someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...


Ew, I hope not. In addition to Transparent there are also Guns. Not to mention half a dozen magic-based ways to get around evasion if one is determined to avoid that particular bit of RNG.

And I have an off-the-wall suggestion: Could crystals heal status in addition to restoring HP and MP? If you can completely drop and crystalize a unit in an Arena match, you've earned a bit of a reward. And it'd be neat to see units recover from something like Silence or Blind and get back into a competitive match. Just a thought.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 04:04:48 pm
Quote from: Pierce on May 13, 2012, 03:27:38 pm
I'm not a big fan of Nurse adding Regen instead of healing.


It's not "instead of", it's "in addition to".  It also gains Regen because Magicward and Iron Will are being merged into a single move that adds Protect/Shell with no Regen, so that the Paladin still has access to Regen but on a skill that's far better for adding it.  Magicward/Iron Will are currently used terrbily by the AI (they will actually use them over Nurse when at Critical HP, it's so bad), making them basically unusable.  It's a small buff to Nurse, making Magicward and Iron Will into one skill the AI will actually use somewhat competently, and leaving the number of skills that add Regen exactly the same (-Magicward, -Iron Will, +Nurse, +Life Song), the skills that add it just suck less and are used properly by the AI.  This is again the same with Life Song - no effect of Life Song is lost, it adds Regen at a 25% rate in addition to healing.  FDC's shorthand just sucks.

Quote from: Pierce on May 13, 2012, 03:27:38 pmIs it possible that Esuna gets its JP cost dropped to 250? I know people have been saying they would like to see more status healing instead of relying on Raise2 to heal the unit (I think it was FDC that said this). Dropping the JP cost by 30 makes it an even 250 and makes it an easier addition to a team.


We discussed this in IRC a bit, so, really, I need to bug FFMaster but what I think needs to happen here is -

Antidote, 50 JP.
Eye Drop, 50 JP.
Echo Grass, 50 JP.

Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP.
Shell, 50 JP.

(Personal onion, Raise 2 should probably be "raised" [hyuk hyuk] to 250 or 300 JP, but that's another matter entirely.)

(I would say Ice, 50 JP, but Ice is being switched out for Ice 2 Back, which'd be 100 JP.)
Ice 2, 100 JP.
Ice 3, 150 JP.
Ice 4, 200 JP.

Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.

Blind, 100 JP.

Bio 2, 200 JP.

The random not-a-multiple-of-50 values aren't helping anyone and are just annoying to deal with.  The only skills listed here that have them for reasons other than "Vanilla Derp" are the Ice series of spells, and they're not good enough to essentially cost 50 more JP than their contemporary spells.  Being economical is not that big of a boon when you consider all of the trio have their own unique perk.  It's pointless and just another reason not to use Wizards since part of their skillset is rather randomly overpriced with no real reason to be. All it really is, is an annoyance, because there's no difference between 60 and 100, 120 and 150, etc. unless you're using some of the random other skills like Esuna that suffer from "Vanilla Derp" JP costs for no reason - and again, those skills don't deserve to cost 50 more than their contemporaries.  This would also fix one of FDC's big complaints about people just letting their units die and get hit with Raise 2 instead of using Esuna - Esuna wouldn't cost 100 more JP than goddamn Raise 2, and hopefully will cost less than Raise 2 does.

Quote from: Pierce on May 13, 2012, 03:27:38 pmDid someone say Concentrate is coming back? Why... there's already Transparent...


Transparent as a status that can be added from skills isn't used correctly by the AI, neither by the person applying or by the person it is applied to, because they incorrectly think they are invincible or that it adds invincibility through being, well, invisible.  Transparent that is Initial from an item has the same issue described for a unit equipping that kind of item.  (Specifically, the unit that had Transparent applied to them won't attack because they think attacking will remove their invincibility, unless they're going for a kill shot or something.  Basically, the AI behaves very oddly and poorly because they think Acting will remove invincibility from enemies.)  Transparent that is Always makes the unit more aggressive than usual because again, they think they're invincible little shits, but when you do something like Hidden Knife + Platina Dagger, you want that behavior anyway, so it's more of a positive bug than anything.  Concentrate itself at a 650 JP cost for a unit that's otherwise not using the Squire class, and most units don't have enough evasion to really make it worth using over Attack UP.  It helps if you want a dedicated anti-healer to break things like Main Gauche Chemists/Mediators that aren't Ninjas though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 13, 2012, 04:21:41 pm
(Well, I guess we'll never see Shintroy again then.)

I can get behind Haste actually getting some vertical--I keep forgetting it doesn't since I pretty much never use it even when I use Time Magic--and Masamune losing it. I'm assuming Masamune would still keep its Haste & Regen, though, and that this would be in addition to becoming linear like formerdeathcorps proposed.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Wild Blow: It trades being evadable with having highly unreliable damage output.  It should have a noticeable MP cost so that it's not easily spammed but otherwise, that's the main reason.


Then we ultimately agree. I just wasn't comfortable with it both being unavoidable and being that cheap and instant, as I mentioned, given that's the exact same thing that happened with early Ninjutsu, which is still pretty damn powerful. While we should be aiming to improve as many things as possible, we should also be aiming to avoid the same mistakes.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Transfusion: A lot more units have good MA than good HP.  Good MA is also more likely to win a game than good HP on average. You also forget that Transfusion already has a cost in HP that requires both Regen and Move-HP UP to be stacked together to offset since it doesn't heal the caster, another disadvantage it has against Murasame. It is already far more build-dependent than Murasame, and its only real bonus is being ally-only targeted, which is only meagerly useful.  Even if you weaken Murasame, it is still far better and generally more usable than Transfusion.  Removing the MP cost from Transfusion makes it a bit more level to Murasame (if only a tiny bit, Murasame is still leagues better for the most part) and lets Paladins use it with MP-screwing their other skills due to their low MP totals.


I didn't forget that. I was merely saying that Murasame doesn't completely obviate it as you seemed to be implying even on units with such things. Otherwise, you have points I suppose, so I guess I can get behind it taking no MP, even if the ally-only thing will probably bug me considering Paladins usually have Regen or Move-HP Up as it is.... However, that's more a personal POV that I honestly would like to see end up being unfounded if it allows it to see more use without becoming obnoxiously overpowering.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Geomancy: The stats of Geomancer are irrelevant because the best Geomancy users aren't Geomancers, they're Bards/Dancers.  The stats on Geomancer handle the class not sucking but don't do anything about the skillset.


Never said that Geomancers were the best at using their own skillset or that stats would make them the best; merely that stats were an improvement to them using Geomancy, which they always would be since there's little other reason to use Geomancers. Still, even if Bards and Dancers are better than Geomancers are using Geomancy and will continue to be, if by a lesser margin, Geomancers at least get to do other things with their Secondary, like potentially get resurrection to use. Last time Geomancers were the best at using their own class, things were unfortunately...messy, though I think part of it was because Geomancy was still unavoidable back then.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Nameless Song: Technically removing Haste makes it weaker, because Haste is still one of the best buffs to get from it.  The reason Haste is removed is to stop the AI from doing NOTHING BUT Nameless Song, which is how it currently operates.  And when the AI is shitting both Haste and Reraise onto people like candy... those teams still don't win.  Partially because the asshole with Nameless Song won't stop singing, but still.  You highly overrate this one.  Reraise becomes more common, but the lack of Hasting makes this a dubious benefit.  The main benefit will be Nameless Song using teams will actually have units that can be more than Nameless Song bots.


Oh, I know losing Haste makes it weaker. I just really dislike Reraise, as I've said before. If it wasn't for the AI whoring Haste (and Slow), then even as much as you think I "love" nerfing things, I'd still rather Haste be on Nameless Song than Reraise even after having agreed to the suggestion about Poison persisting beyond death. Oh well, perhaps Poison (and Dispel Magic and new Spellbreak) will be enough combined with how seldom the AI actively uses Reraise, Protect or Shell for this to not be as potentially bad as I expect, but I guess we'll just have to see.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Poison: I say "Antidote" as a joke. -.-  Chemist actually gets weaker from this, because now you'll need to spend even more JP on the Item skillset itself to get Antidote, forego Antidote, or forego something else, and if you DO get Antidote, you get to deal with the AI randomly throwing Antidotes when it should be doing other stuff.  If anything, the Esuna / Stigma Magic / Regen users are the ones who gain the most here, because they can handle the threat without additional investment or risky AI derps.


I was aware of that. I was merely stating how I don't want Item to have be even more depended upon than it already is, especially since, despite requiring slightly more investment, Antidote is pretty damn cheap at 70 JP; not that it should be more, it's just doesn't seem like it's going to make people be forced to drop something on Chemist that they would otherwise use as you seem to be implying.

Esuna and Stigma Magic benefiting doesn't make me feel much better either to be honest, but oh well. At least maybe Regen, Squire's Heal and the Poison-blocking equipment will see more use now, though Regen was at least used semi-frequently unlike those last two.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Magic Guns: You merely proposed a huge pile of debuffs to Magic Guns beyond the WP decrements, when it wasn't Magic Guns that were even the issue, merely an interaction between one Gun and one skill that's fixed by a simple WP and proc adjustment.  If anything, the other uses of Magic Guns need buffs if anything - which is the other thing the 100% Tier 3 + 13-12-11 WP setup does, buffs their far weaker uses while making their one problematic one about on par with other weapons.


Uh, where? I literally only talked about actual guns twice in my original reply to formerdeathcorps where I a) agreed with his/your magickal gun nerfs and said that, without knowing what the average was (becoming), I'd probably go with the slightly lower WP (because the guns would still be unavoidable without Projectile Guard) and b) where I said that all guns probably shouldn't be able to be used with the shields. The second proposal was less about magickal guns--I'd be lying if I wasn't thinking about them, though--and more about how you shouldn't be able to have that much range with unavoidable attacks and still be able to give yourself extra-evasion and boosts with a free hand, at least innately.

That applies to Romanda Gun, Mythril Gun (not that anyone ever really uses the thing) and Stone Gun as well. It just seems really backwards to allow guns to use shields while at the same time having the less powerful, less accurate, less versatile and not-as-far reaching longbows to all be forced to be two-hands, which is part of the reason they currently suck and are barely used compared to guns. So unless you're talking about how I wanted the lesser WP for the magickal guns of the two integers offered, I really don't know what you're on about with this "huge pile" of debuffs.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Bow Gun: No... I mean a 50% Armor Break proc has a lower net chance to hit the target than a 19% Shellbust Stab proc because Armor Break with a Bow Gun has a terrible hit rate.  It's essentially a 15-20% proc after you compute Armor Break's hit rate, that then becomes a Double Shot weapon afterward, which isn't a big deal due to Bow Gun's low WP.


Oh, okay then. I can agree with that.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Undead: Not talking about status interactions, nope.


Hmmm...I guess I'll still have to think about it then.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pm@Nerfing: I'm just pointing out back when I decided to give Arena a look over (1.32ish?), it was a quagmire of things in the opposite direction - everything sucked, and I was able to make an essentially unbeatable team out of what were otherwise the worst items and abilities in Arena.  DERP is still really high up there in part because I'm not a fucking idiot and it abuses Speed ties, interactions, has tons of contingency plans, etc., but each version makes it harder and harder for teams like that to win v the entire field - because the entire field is becoming less and less of a quagmire of shit in terms of both teams and classes/equipment.  In a PVP game like Arena, one of the most important things is to allow a large number of strategies either competitive validity or the illusion of competitive validity, which are both much more easily obtained by pulling the bottom up than by pulling the top down, so to speak.  The latter is honestly what's most prone to making a 1-strategy metagame.


I mostly agree with that philosophy.

I just don't think it's as straightforward as it could be, unfortunately, with the restriction of the (current) AI being in charge and everything being proposed to happen at all once. If this was basically what Tethical is aiming to be with actual people in charge of their own teams and/or happening in waves rather than one tsunami of changes at once, then I'd likely to be able to readily get behind a hell of a lot more/not be so cautious. I really don't think nerfing "works" as much as you seem to be getting the impression that I do, but I'm sure as hell going to get more and more cautious with the more things that want to be changed for reasons that don't seem as readily clear to me as they do to you; it's only natural.

As such, keep in mind that I'm not the only person who, when looking at formerdeathcorps'/your list, only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 13, 2012, 12:44:56 pmAll that finally said, I've three (technically 4) equipment related suggestions:

@Sprint Shoes: +1 Move +1 Speed oh god no.  For someone who likes to nerfstick so much, you must realize how ridiculous that is.

 
Sigh. Ignoring the bold, yes, I do; admittedly I perhaps don't think it's as "ridiculous" as you seem to be implying, though you know you're more than welcome to enlighten me as long as you avoid being condescending. I said that should be done for Sasuke Knife's sake (and even then it's quite arguable for a couple reasons) because I'm not sure FFMaster even has any Item Attribute space left to try to improve Sasuke Knife (or some other pieces of equipment that really need it). I'm at loss as how to do that as it is, especially if it has to continue sharing with Sprint Shoes. Would +1 Jump instead of +1 Move be acceptable? What do you think Sasuke Knife would need for improvement, even as relatively unimportant as it is, if "we" are really trying to push as many valid strategies and choices as possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 13, 2012, 06:47:18 pm
Have y'all ever thought of implementing a move that could crystallize dead units (maybe this is the new purpose of execute)? It would obviously only work on dead units, and it should probably have a CT so that the enemy has a chance to revive the unit or disable (kill, berserk, or otherwise) the caster.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle such an ability though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 13, 2012, 09:10:07 pm
(Sigh. That last post had quite a few typos I missed in my initial once. Apologies, Raven.)

Ugh. I have a rather sizeable headache right now, but I figure I might as well answer this before I go back out to do more chores.

Quote from: dacheat on May 13, 2012, 06:47:18 pm
Have y'all ever thought of implementing a move that could crystallize dead units (maybe this is the new purpose of execute)? It would obviously only work on dead units, and it should probably have a CT so that the enemy has a chance to revive the unit or disable (kill, berserk, or otherwise) the caster.

I'm not sure how the AI would handle such an ability though.


The AI would probably handle it well.

The primary problem is, though, that with current formulas, which are mostly still the original ones, we are completely unable to do that. You'd have to make a formula akin to Seal Evil's (and Consecrate's), except that instead of only working on the Undead, it would only work on the Dead. There might be other ways to do it, but would doubtless be the easiest, especially since we can't use two different Inflict Status Codes, i.e. Cancel Dead (to only target the dead) and Add Crystal (add Crystal to them).

That said, with the proposed change to Poison, this also shouldn't be necessary at all.

P.S. It is impossible for overkill-damage to add Instant Crystal. If that were possible, then it would pop-up a lot and most people would probably actually avoid using Phoenix Down (and Wish) because of it. Execute being proposed to do "double damage" to the Critical is for...other reasons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 13, 2012, 09:42:34 pm
Is there a way to cast something like quick on a dead unit to make them immediately take their "turn" and make the counter go down?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 13, 2012, 10:23:29 pm
(Ugh. Still haven't left yet, so....)

Not really sure why you're insist about this, but to answer your question, no.

Again, you'd have to make up a formula that specifically targets the Dead. It should possibly be easier since you could use the formula for Reis's Dragon Power Up (or whatever it was that "gave" Quick to dragons) and just make the requirement that unit has to have Dead status rather than be ID'd as a "Dragon".

That said, as interesting as suggestion is it is, for ARENA, it would likely be quite useless. Most resurrection happens before the counter even hits 2, much less 1. You're better just building "anti-healer" units, which again letting Poison persist past death allows. Still intriguing to think about though....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 14, 2012, 01:08:19 am
Quote from: The Damned on May 13, 2012, 04:21:41 pm
(Well, I guess we'll never see Shintroy again then.)


Apparently adding 3 weapons that are strictly better than the weapon he wants while doing the exact same thing along with a Crossbow that adds Silence isn't good enough, I guess.

@Chemists/Antidote: Most people spend all 3000 of their JP, unless they're silly.  70 JP is essentially 100 JP unless using other oddly-costed skills like Echo Grass, so you very likely will need to drop /something/... and then you've ultimately got a skill that does nothing but Cancel Poison with nothing else.  Yay.  I'm more just pointing out that all the non-Item sources of anti-Poison are just outright better in general, and this Poison edit directly HURTS Phoenix Down users, so Item is being damaged quite a bit via this change. not helped.

@Guns: That's the debuff I'm talking about.  Notice that Longbows are being buffed, again, and Crossbows are getting buffed, and Guns are getting nothing but a debuff on bad interactions and maybe a slight buff in net Attack damage on the ones that require you run 70 Faith and have more risk to them.  When a class like Archer can access multiple weapon types, it's common for one type to be the go-to and the rest kinda be secondary, especially when each weapon type follows design trends as they (usually) do in Arena. In this case, Guns are primary, Longbows and Crossbows are secondary, but like I noted - the weaker end (Crossbows and Longbows) is being buffed, and the main thing that makes Guns leet awesome (Kagesougi Gunning) is being addressed.  Shore up the bottom value instead of undercutting the top line.  Longbows probably need more buffing than what FDC suggests though, but I need to run their numbers more.  They probably need higher WP rivaling Books and such, though, even though the stronger procs will also help.  But that's a problem with Longbows being inferior, when you stop to realize the Gun users (Kagesougi Gunners aside) aren't ruining the game, the Longbow users just can't keep up - so help them keep up, don't trip someone whose not damaging the game and risk ending up with both sucking instead of just one of them.

@only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why. - FDC kind of spontaneously posted.  I don't know why he did.  There is a reason I am out here fielding all the concerns that get raised since he decided to shit out a barely readable shorthand list that's of dubious use even if you DO know the goddamn context. I'll re-compile the changelog with actual explanations sometime later.
 
@Sasuke Knife: I personally think the weapon should just be scrapped and redone entirely.  Hidden Knife does everything you'd want Sasuke Knife to do unless you don't run Two Swords, which is fairly rare when it comes to Ninjato and Dagger users.  I can think of a couple defensive Thief builds where Sasuke Knife is better, but there's essentially two weapons in the same weapon group competing for the same design space.  I'd rather kill it and come up with a completely new idea.  It's not like most Ninjato have tons of flair so there's plenty of design space to work with in that regard.

@Condescending: I am always smug, arrogant, and condescending.  Where have you been? :V
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 14, 2012, 02:56:11 pm
(His loss. You know how people are never satisfied.)

Ugh. Meant to reply to this last night, but Firefox (and my body) acted up on me yet again. I'm noticing a pattern here. I need to start using Opera since Chrome is apparently crap on this computer, but I digress.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 14, 2012, 01:08:19 amEVEN THOUGH YOU'RE RIGHT ABOVE ME AGAIN.


@Chemists & Antidote (The Item, Not the FFT Track): I suppose so. Despite reconsidering the Poison thing as above, I hadn't considered how much it screws over Phoenix Down, only Wish. Still not sure it has as much impact even given the tendency to spend all 3000 JP, though normalizing all costs to be divisible by 50 will definitely help with that; even if you are suggesting further decreasing Antidote to be a mere 50, making Raise 2 more expensive is definitely something I can get behind.

@Guns: Oh, okay. So that's what you meant. I got confused when you said "huge pile" since, as I said, I only mentioned it twice. I can see what you're saying a lot more clearly now. While still think it might need to be measure that needs to be taken even with Kagesougi's most blatant problem already being taken care of, I can handle holding off for the same reason that I conceded about Wizard's points: potentially too many changes at once. As such, I would agree that Longbows probably need to strengthened more, though at this point they've had more attention paid to them than some other less than stellar weapons categories (Katana, Poles, Bags, etc.).

@only sees a list of things to change without any reasons as to why.: Oh, I wouldn't say what formerdeathcorps did was entirely bad. I think he wanted to put the list out for public comment because not everyone goes to chat, among other things. It's that that many changes, without much context besides the other things that are being changed and any further explanation of WHY (and sometimes a lack of clarity, as with "de-cancel" or features that are additions rather than replacements), are inevitably going to be confusing in some aspects. But, hey, you're here.
 
@Sasuke Knife: Agreed. I still Hidden Knife doesn't need that Speed +1 at all, but it can keep Always: Transparent (for now). Sasuke Knife probably just needs to die (and be redesigned) since there's absolutely nothing redeeming about it (like at least three of Katana).

@Condescending: Shrug. I guess I'm just used to if you are given the nature of the Internet and humanity. That and/or you're one of the few condescending people who tends to know what the fuck he's talking about rather than some arrogant twat who is in reality some vacuous buffoon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 14, 2012, 08:48:37 pm
Suggestion: Equipment with Always: Regen should gain Cancel: Poison. Regen cancels Poison in other instances, but things like the Light Robe get screwed up by Poison. Regen can't override the Poison because Regen still can't be cast on the unit, even though the Poison has cancelled it out. Just a small little complaint.

On the topic of Poison, I don't like the idea of it persisting past death. It makes one simple status effectively cancel Phoenix Down, Wish, and all forms of Reraise. I'm not a fan.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 15, 2012, 08:23:04 pm
While I appreciate the buff to poison, having it persist is going to make Raise and 0 CT healing even more popular.  I understand that you want poison to deny Phoenix Down's use, but I think there are already means of doing so.  These means include guns, geomancy, and concentrated physicals (if Concentrate comes back).  Adding poison as another mean is all fine and well, but it will add too much collateral damage.  Fantactic raises a good point: wish and reraise will also suffer.   Relying on healing with CT (ie. any "X Magic") is going to be a lot less effective, too.  This means that the few people who haven't already run to 0 CT healing - namely items, Murasame, and Punch Art - which are effective in their own right, are going to do so.

If we're going to buff poison, I propose we strengthen the one feature that makes it unique: using your opponent's max HP against him/herself.  Currently, it is negated by Move-HP UP.  Having it deal ~20% damage per turn would change that.  It would be like in Final Fantasy X.  Poison in that game was scary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 15, 2012, 09:23:41 pm
Quote from: Fantactic1316 on May 14, 2012, 08:48:37 pm
Suggestion: Equipment with Always: Regen should gain Cancel: Poison. Regen cancels Poison in other instances, but things like the Light Robe get screwed up by Poison. Regen can't override the Poison because Regen still can't be cast on the unit, even though the Poison has cancelled it out. Just a small little complaint.


I don't see the problem with this myself - it just gives Poison a reason to see use, similar to why the other change is proposed.  Light Robe and P Bag are already respectably strong considering Regen is stronger than Move-HP UP, the Poison interaction just gives them a counter instead of making those items guarantee a long slog.

Quote from: Fantactic1316 on May 14, 2012, 08:48:37 pmOn the topic of Poison, I don't like the idea of it persisting past death. It makes one simple status effectively cancel Phoenix Down, Wish, and all forms of Reraise. I'm not a fan.


Considering many times, Phoenix Down / etc loops just extend already lost games, it again gives Poison a metagame use while shutting down teams from flailing if you choose to incorporate it into your team.  The revived unit still also gets their turn to cope with the Poison effect before dying again, and oftentimes they'll have healing or something to offset it.  The teams that end up getting put down are the ones who likely wouldn't be making a comeback anyway.

Though, if it did persist after death, Poison would likely need to regain its CT to give it some level of fairness.  Infinite duration and persistence through death is a recipe for derp, agreed.

Gonna re-post FDC's list with the stuff he forgot and some reasoning for it to give people a better idea of wtf is going on:

Throwing Knife (Gain +33% Death Sentence)
Dual Cutters (Gain +1 WP)
Blind Knife => Pain Knife (9 WP, 2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +5% Crystal)
Mage Masher (Change proc to 50% Bizen Boat)
Assassin Dagger => Katar (12 WP, no2S, no2H, +1 Move, 15% W-EV, +1 PA)

Reasoning: Throwing Knife is kind of shit, Assassin Dagger is kind of shit, this simple solution merges them together and makes room for a PA-counterpart to the Orichalcum.  Mage Masher becomes a rather powerful Dagger that deals MA*9 MP damage on a reasonable basis, which equates to 56 MP damage on a minimum MA male Chemist - fairly respectable MP damage.  Dual Cutters are kind of shitty aside from being an offhand option to Platina Dagger, a role for which it competes and usually loses to Hidden Knife over.  The extra WP is an attempt to give it a bit more oomph in competing with Hidden Knife as an offhand choice, and add extra kick to anyone running to run a pair of Dual Cutters on the same unit.  The Pain Knife is sortof a joke and likely won't make it into the final release.


Spell Edge (Gain 50% Spell Absorb)

This is a simple one.  It's kind of like the Mage Masher, but has lower accuracy/MP damage in trade for replenishing the user's MP.  It gives a higher-HP, lower-MP damage option to Mage Masher while also allowing Ninjas, etc. to potentially spec MP efficiency for use with Ninjitsu, magic secondaries, etc.  While it does share some overlapping design space with Mage Masher, Mage Masher is very clear-cut "kill the enemy" where as Spell Edge is meant to be more multirole and compatible with DPS builds.


All Knight Swords (+1 WP)

A simple edit to help Knight Sword users keep up with other classes in terms of DPS, and offset the buffs to Shields that were given to continue justifying Knight Swords as competitive Two-Handed options.


Koutetsu (Add: +1 PA)
Heaven's Cloud (Change +1 PA to Proc: 50% Slow)

Again, the thought process here is simple enough: Koutetsu Knife and Heaven's Cloud separately are kinda shitty.  Koutetsu Knife might see use in a Dark absorb team maybe but that's it, and using Heaven's Cloud is like the punchline to a bad joke considering Masamume has a better buff AND more WP.  A 50% Slow status proc is actually fairly strong considering how powerful Slow can be compared to Haste - it has half the duration, but you get the full effect a lot sooner, letting you beat the shit out of the Slowed unit rather handily if your units are in position to do so.  It can also give the Heaven's Cloud user a solid advantage in a 1v1 setting through re-proc'ing Slow over and over, making it go from a shitty joke Wind Katana to something actually threatening.


Healing Staff (+1 WP)
Rainbow Staff (-1 WP, Remove: All Elements)[

Well, Healing Staff sucks.  Rainbow Staff at Neutral All Elements and 10 WP still hits harder than the 8 WP Wizard Staff unless you're using Two Swords with a pair of Wizard Staves together (and 1 Wizard Staff 1 Rainbow Staff should hit roughly as hard or harder than 2 Wizard Staff in terms of pure melee), so it's still a very effective weapon for your offhand if you just want a DPS stick.  The 11 WP was only to make it have HUGE damage to offset the fact it was easily absorbed, but Elements in Arena are almost TOO easy to absorb, so an ALL ELEMENT HUGE POWER weapon is just generally fucked.


Blaze Gun (13 WP, Change proc to 100% Fire3)
Glacier Gun (12 WP, Change proc to 100% Ice3)
Blast Gun (11 WP, Change proc to 100% Bolt3)

Simply put, this fixes the issues with Kagesougi Gunners and makes Magic Guns better at actually shooting people directly and more reliable.  In this sense, it's a bit of a twofer - an abusive interaction dies, AND otherwise underpowered weapons become better.  The WP is kept high enough so that interactions between WP-referencing abilities is still usable as well, while not being OP like the current Kagesougi Gunner combo.  Since, after all, there's no reason to kill and outright make the combo unusable when it can just be placed back under control and allowed to exist as another viable strategy.


Bow Gun (Change proc to 50% Armorbreak)
Cross Bow => Silencer (10 WP, +50% Silence, 4 Range, 0% W-EV)
Poison Bow (+2 WP)

As I described to The Damned earlier, that 50% chance on the Bow Gun is the chance to cast the Armor Break ability, not the chance to actually lose your armor.  Your net chance of getting your armor broken is maybe 20%, probably less, making it about as accurate as any other base-rate proc.  After that, it becomes a 50% Doubleshot weapon, reprising its original role against an enemy with weakened Max HP and making it a fair bit stronger.  As for the others, Cross Bow currently kinda sucks, so this merges Cross Bow with Poison Bow effectively, then uses the free spot for an anti-mage Crossbow, something we can more than afford to have since Crossbows are kinda eh at 10 WP and Silence is respectably healable/blockable if you want to give up specs for less risk.


Longbow (+2 Range)
Silver Bow (Proc: 19% Holy)
Ice Bow (Proc: 25% Stop)
Lightning Bow (Proc: 25% Don't Act)
Windslash Bow (Proc: 19% Hurricane)
Ultimus Bow (+1 PA)

[Personal addition - +1 WP all Longbows]

Well, Longbows suck.  Still.  The Longbow itself merely becomes long to offset being otherwise vanilla-y, giving the Romanda Gun more direct competition.  Ice Bow and Lightning Bow become debilitating weapons simply because otherwise, EVERY Longbow would essentially be a DPS weapon and that's kinda pointless.  Hurricane proc on the Windslash Bow (which is Wind Element 33% HP damage at middling hit rate) lets it do the proc for more DPS role of the old Ice Bow and Lightning Bow, though either the base proc rate of Hurricane needs to be raised or Hurricane needs to hit on 100% in this instance.  Ultimus Bow just becomes more raw DPS in this situation, as does the Silver Bow.  Though, honestly, these also likely need a flat +1 WP the way Knight Swords do.  They suffer from both an inferior damage formula and inferior WP... though someone will likely start bitching about Kagesougi Windslash Bow with our luck, though, despite how vastly inferior to Kagesougi Blaze Gun that would be.


Monster Dictionary (Change proc to Magic Ruin)

[Personal addition - condense WP to 15/14/13/12.]

Sinkhole proc just becomes a Magic Ruin proc to be more generally useful.  Otherwise, I've noted my other favored change, condensing their WP so that the Books ALL do relevant damage instead of just two of them, considering Books have what's likely the worst Weapon Damage formula in the entire game.




Mythril Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Gold Shield (Change to 25 / 5)
Ice Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Flame Shield (Change to 20 / 10)
Diamond Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Platina Shield (Change to 15 / 15)
Crystal Shield (Change to 20 / 20, halve/weak: all elements)
Genji Shield (Change to 10 / 5)
Venetian Plate => Glitter Shield (+1 SPD, 5 / 5)

Looking over these Shield changes again... I don't know what the fuck FDC is doing here.  Here's my version of this thing, because I find his is a terrible idea and ruins the entire driving force behind this update - promoting the M-EV stat.



Diamond Shield (Change to 5/25)
Platina Shield (Change to 25/5)
Crystal Shield (Change to 20/20, Neutral: All Elements.)
Genji Shield (Change to 10/5)
Venetian Shield => Glitter Shield (5/5 +1 SPD)

This I find is a far better version of his general idea.  The Crystal Shield is made better and can be used to cover the weaknesses of various setups while sporting good evasion, the Genji Shield now forces you to give up Evasion for your power boost instead of giving you everything in one package.  The Venetian Shield is removed because it basically makes Wizards worthless, and the Glitter Shield is added as a typical +Stats Shield, +SPD being a nice boon for units using one-handed weapons without Two Hands such as Crossbow users, some Spear users, etc. at the cost of basically any form of evasion.


Gold Helmet (Change Null: Chicken to Null: Don't Move)
Genji Helmet (Chance Null: Don't Move to Initial: Berserk)

Simple changes.  Current Genji Helmet sucks and Gold Helmet has a useless defense on it, so 1 + 1 = 2.  Genji Helmet then gets to become an alternate Salty Rage for Paladins, Samurai, etc., allowing them stronger Berserking setups while Salty Rage still allows non-Armored Berserkers to exist.


N-Kai Armlet (Change Null: Confuse to Undead)
Jade Armlet (Change Null: Chicken to Ice)
Reflect Ring (Change Null: Silence to Berserk)
Defense Armlet (+Absorb: Fire)
Defense Ring (+8/8)

[Personal addition - Defense Armlet should Null fire and not Absorb it.  Rubber Boots and Jade Armlet don't Absorb, so neither should Defense Armlet.  This way, only secondary Elements get the privilege of being Absorbed through Accessories as a perk compared to primary Elements.]

Simply, this provides for more anti-Berserk since Berserk is slowly becoming more prevalent as a Negative status as well as a Positive one (as it is also being added to Geomancy's proc set, see below.), as well as some anti-Undead and general removal of useless anti's.


Small Mantle (10 / 20)
Wizard Mantle (15 / 25, Null: Don't Act)
Leather Mantle (20 / 30)
Elf Mantle (25 / 25)
Feather Mantle (30 / 20)
Dracula Mantle (25 / 15, Null: Berserk)
Vanish Mantle (20 / 10)

Basically, anti-Don't Act shifts from Dracula Mantle to Wizard Mantle, and Dracula Mantle gets anti-Zerk to replace anti-Don't Act.  In addition, all the Mantles now suck a lot less - only having gradiations of 5 instead of 6 between tiers, capping at 30 instead of 24, and having a min stat of 10 in any EV area.  This way, Mantles can be more generally usable instead of just things that are kind of there as anti-stuff with token evasion scores or part of Abandon setups.



Remove: Cheer Up
Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste)
Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP)
Add: Concentrate (400 JP)

[Personal addition - Wild Blow should cost 15-20 MP.  It is fairly strong, Instant, and Unevadable.  While it's unreliable, if it's spammable that doesn't matter because you WILL get lucky unless you only get to cast it a couple times, at which point the MP cost is moot.]

Simply, Squire gets more random things - parity with Accumulate and in turn more reason to use things like Rods, Wild Blow to give them something cool and actually solid offensively, and the return of Concentrate to offset the fact Evasion is being promoted somewhat, and because Concentrate is a rather overrated skill whose purpose in Arena can easily become relegated to allowing non-Ninja melee units to break Main Gauche healers, and allowing them to be weaker but more consistent v other threats that honestly don't have that much evasion to begin with most of the time.  It also pulls centralization away from Hidden Knife on said Ninjas, allowing for a wider amount of viable setups.


Antidote, 50 JP.
Eye Drop, 50 JP.
Echo Grass, 50 JP.


Antidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.
[Insert New Item Here]


Both versions of these fix the non-multiple-of-50-JP issue which is just a terrible annoyance.  My preferred version also adds a means of countering Berserk AND leaves room for a new Item of some kind.  I have no clue what kind of Item would be worth adding, if any, but it's noteworthy design space and a move that makes both Echo Grass and Antidote generally more worth buying.



Remove: Dia
Remove: Iron Will
Remove: Magic Ward
Change: Nurse (Add: Regen on top of current effects.)
Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost)
Add: Prepare (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP)
Add: Wretched Blade (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, +Poison, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)

[Personal additions - rename "Prepare" to "Iron Will" or simply "Ward".  Prepare is a fucking terrible name.]

These changes handle a few things.  First, it addresses an AI issue that will cause it to use Iron Will or Magic Ward instead of Nurse when at Critical HP if the unit knows both, while making both Nurse stronger as stand-alone skills.  Wretched Blade gives Paladins an alternative to Grand Cross to use without absorption setups, and Reraise allows them to support fellow party members better.  The MP cost on Transfusion is dropped because it's already priced in HP, and Paladins already have low MP, so this gives Paladins a bit more long-term use and stops their MP from being tied up pointlessly when all their other skills also cost MP.  Dia and Reraise are switched because Paladin can make much better use of Reraise while Priest can make much better use of Dia.



Remove: Greased Bolt
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP)
Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3})

Cover Fire gets a better formula, and Execute becomes better at doing very not-obvious things.  Meanwhile, Hawkseye and Greased Bolt are merged because both are generally shit but make one okay skill together.


Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65)
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

Secret Fist gets a more generally reasonable Hit Rate to match that of the Death Sentence skill, and Monk gains a new Movement skill that manipulates Fury to give an alternative to Brave Up.



Remove: Reraise
Add: Dia (See old Paladin)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP.
Shell, 50 JP.
Holy (Gains: Evadable)

[Personal addition - Raise 2, 300 JP.]

The idea here is to again fix the random not-multiples-of-50, give weaker skills the low-end side of the rounding, promote Esuna > Raise 2 usage, and throw in an alternative to Faith Up.  Simple stuff, really.  My personal addition here just further emphasizes the changes already being done, and because Raise 2 costing less JP than Revive is more than a bit silly.



(+15 MAM) [Effective +1 MA]
Remove: Fire1
Remove: Ice1
Remove: Bolt1
Add: Fire 2 Back (Same as old Fire2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Ice 2 Back (Same as old Ice2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Add: Bolt 2 Back (Same as old Bolt2 except replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)%)
Change: Fire 2 (+19% Oil)
Change: Ice 2 (+19% Slow)
Change: Bolt 2 (+19% Don't Move)
Change: Poison (AoE +1, Vert +1)
Ice 2 Back, 100 JP.
Ice 2, 100 JP.
Ice 3, 150 JP.
Ice 4, 200 JP.

[Personal addition - Remove Reflectable from Flare to give it an advantage over Holy.]

Buff Wizard MA, buff the Tier 2 Magic and Poison, remove the shitty Tier 1 spells in trade for UnFury spells to counteract Ninjitsu somewhat.  This is a simple, small buff that goes hand-in-hand with removing Venetian Shield to promote Wizardry/Black Magic.  My personal addition here is to push for the difference in Flare and Holy that was being enforced from Holy being made subject to M-EV - Holy is faster, cheaper, and with the right setup more powerful than Flare.  However, Flare is guaranteed damage while Holy can be nullified in a variety of ways.  JP adjustments again keep everything clean and 50ified.



Change: Haste (Vert +1)
Change: Slow (Vert +1)
Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2)
Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.

With Don't Move, it's a simple buff to a currently bad skill to make it somewhat useful and intimidating.  Not much else to say.  As for Haste/Slow, this just makes the tier 1 versions of those skills more generally usable.  JP adjustments again keep everything 50ified.


Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.
Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 19% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT)
Change: Lich (Change Y = 65, remove Darkness elemental.)

Summons take M-EV to again push M-EV as being a relevant game mechanic and make a better distinction between the low-damage/area ones and high-damage/area ones.  The Lich losing Darkness elemental bit isn't something I added, but rather something we decided on but FDC forgot to note.



Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell)

Simple Spellbreaker buff.  Yup.



Blind, 100 JP.

Yup.



(+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM, +1 Jump)  (Effective +~20 MP, +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 Jump)
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move
Change Local Quake to +Petrify
Change Quicksand to +Zombie
Change Pitfall to +Slow
Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep
Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act
Change Demon Fire to +Oil
Change Blizzard to +simultaneous Silence and Blind
Change Sandstorm to +Berserk

Buffs to the base Geomancer class give it more distinctions from the Squire class - it becomes a strong Carrier Class with solid bases but lacking in Squire's large equipment repertoire.  The changes to the procs are done for two reasons - it removes the loldoublePetrifyGG of Carve Model, but overall buffs the power of Geomancy by making each individual proc more powerful and damaging to the opponent.  In the end it's a worthwhile trade for all parties involved, as Geomancy gets to keep up with the other skills being used and the dirty-feeling double Petrifies go away.



Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf)
Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, -1 Vert, Self)

The change to Koutetsu allows it to still cover a large area, but restricts it from being a lolsurfacenuke.  Masamune becomes weaker, with more restricted range and only able to hit 2 units instead of your entire party, again giving more reason to use Haste or Haste 2 while still keeping the double-Masamune that makes it worth using.



Remove: Doku no Kyoukai
Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV)
Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects)
Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act)

Kagesougi is buffed by merging it with Doku no Kyoukai, because non-Blaze-Gun-Kagesougi has generally been shit forever, and Doku no Kyoukai is shit, so they come together to again make one usable move.  Ninjitsu takes M-EV to again push M-EV actually being relevant, and Tsumazuku does cool and unique things.  Not much else to really say here, the -ton Ninjitsu gets a nerf of sorts and everything else gets buffed.



Bio 2, 200 JP.

Again, yup.  All the non-50s should be gone now.



Change: Life Song (+25% Regen, still heals HP.)
Change: Nameless Song (Change hit rate 40%, CT = 4, RandomAdd: Reraise, Protect, Shell)

Simple Life Song buff here since it's become far less relevant with weaker Mimes and the average DPS of a unit in Arena finally becoming more respectable.  Nameless Song gets a pseudo-debuff that fixes problems the AI has with using the skill due to it previously adding Haste at 100% - or at least, the AI thinking it did so, and in turn never doing anything but use Nameless Song.  This should fix that issue, and the higher rates on Reraise, Protect, and Shell will let it be a stronger defensive skill.



Change: Wiznaibus (+25% Poison, still damages HP.)
Change: Nameless Dance (Change to RandomAdd: Darkness, Silence, Slow, Oil)

Wiznaibus gets a buff, because like Life Song it has fallen to the wayside.  Nameless Dance also gets a bit of a buff, adding Oil and synergizing with the changes to Oil this update brings.  This should help Dancers trying to do things other than stat-debuff Dancers a la DERP function far better than they do currently.




Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

[Personal addition - I see no reason to exempt Holy and Dark.  There are very few Holy skills or weapons in Arena, and while Dark is prevalent, it is also the most easily countered through Black Costume being the best of the Elem Absorb items, among other things.  Koutetsu was also weakened, as was Meiton, so there's no real reason to exempt either element, personally.]

Dead:
Cancel: Oil, Frog
No Longer Cancels: Regen, Poison.

Weakens Frog a bit, fixes the bug with Oil, and promotes a change to Regen and Poison that was decided upon to make them more powerful statuses.

[Personal]
Poison:
CT becomes 96.

This just offsets the change to Regen and Poison not being Canceled after death by giving Poison a CT equal to Regen.  Since it goes from being a joke status to something actually of threat, being dispelled after a time is now something that's fair to do and at least gives people who can't dispel Poison in some way a chance, since those who can dispel it will be doing so long before 96 CT expires.


There, FDC's List-o-Changes with a few things he forgot added in, fully explained, etc.  Enjoy.

@Gaignun:  Poison currently does 1/8th HP Damage, or 12%ish.  The only way to buff it would be to 25% without a messy rewrite for 20%, but in either case it just ends up becoming too good since units suddenly drop to poison in only a couple turns.  The change here is again mostly meant to make it a weapon against sandbagging wars.  It does push people toward Raise 2 a bit - but if you read the rest of the changes, specifically those concerning Priest, the changelog itself is actually trying to push them away from Raise 2 and toward the Esuna and Regen spells, which also heal Poison.  It becomes quite a thing, really.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 15, 2012, 10:54:32 pm
Esuna has a charge time.  Relying on it to restore Poison on units revived without Raise will be a crapshoot.  Relying on it to restore one's own poison will be impossible.  0 CT skills are the only reliable salvation.

I understand where you're coming from about resurrection loops.  I always thought AoE was the answer to breaking them, though.  What I'm saying is, a team that can't break an opponent's resurrection loop is a team that's too reliant on single-target attacks.

As for pushing people away from Raise, what other form of resurrection are people being pushed to?  The way I see it, all forms are becoming worse or staying bad.  Dying will become more costly, so either stacking pure offense for one-hit kills (eg. FDC's S1 team) or stacking pure defense to avoid dying (eg. Wiz's S1 team) will be the go-to strategies.  Aren't these strategies viable enough already?  Maybe I'm alone on this, but I find the battle where teams go back and forth with offense and defense to be the most exciting.

25% poison sounds delicious.  We'd need to make the status more difficult to inflict and give it a short CT (say ~4-5 turns at 8 SP for certain death without healing).  Esuna and Regen will be equally attractive.  I think we could make it work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 15, 2012, 11:37:08 pm
Eh, personally I don't think a unit should be able to negate my Light Robe unless they're packing Armor Break. Poison takes away Regen, with no hope of having it re-cast, and if it persists past death then the problem just gets even worse. But that's just me, I guess.

And ick! Flare losing reflectable? It already has higher Y values. And adding 1MA to Wizards helps too. And it's non-elemental so Reflect is basically the only really effective method of cancelling it. Just keep it at 100% success rate and that'll be enough advantage over evadable Holy.

Also, I like Gaignun's thoughts.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 am
I'm late on this, but I thought I'd add my input to other listed changes:

QuoteVenetian Shield => Glitter Shield (5/5 +1 SPD)


I'm with The Damned on this: can we use a name other than Glitter Shield?  This is what I think of when I read the word "Glitter":

(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/9590/061320simmons2.jpg)

No offense to the name's creator or anything.

QuoteCrystal Shield (Change to 20/20, Neutral: All Elements.)


So it covers... only Light Robe's and P-Bag's Dark weakness, I think?  Too bad it won't do anything for Fire, Ice, Gold, and Mythril Shield's weaknesses, which is unfortunate, as I believe these weaknesses are what are preventing their adoption.   Crystal Shield will remain specialty shield.

QuoteDefense Ring (+8/8)


I think Defense Ring is going to need a little more to entice people.  +8 evasion is like garnishing shit with parsley (excuse my language); it still smells bad.  Maybe give it "Absorb: Earth" instead of EV to round out accessories' absorption of "secondary elements."  This is just a thought.

QuoteAdd: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 5 MP, 100 JP)


I'm with Raven on this one: increase the MP cost to keep the AI from spamming this.  Either that or let it be evadeable.  Otherwise, consider units with Wild Blow as units that can have both Attack UP and Concentrate equipped at the same time with an occasional Berserk-like damage boost.  That's pretty broken.

QuoteAntidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.


Sound proposals, and a freed item slot besides.  The status infliction of Kiyomori will be manageable this way, and people will have an accessible means of healing berserks they don't want.

Quote[Personal addition - Remove Reflectable from Flare to give it an advantage over Holy.]


If you're looking for an advantage of Flare over Holy, you got it by making Holy evadeable and buffing mantles.  Having Flare pierce reflect is a slap in the face to reflect.  I say we keep Dispel Magic as the reflect counter.  If Flare isn't useful enough, I suggest we lower its MP or CT instead.

QuoteAdd: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)


I mentioned this before, but these proposals shadow Faith UP and Brave UP.  If these movement abilities must be kept, then please lower the increments to +2.

QuoteSummoner
Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.


Some summons, particularly Salamander and Leviathan, are going to be dramatically underwhelming with this change.  We'll need to buff these summons' damage or give them a status proc to compensate.

QuoteChange Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move


We are trading one evil for another with this one.  Hell Ivy is just as common as Carve Model, and double-panel Stop can be just as game-ending as double-panel Petrify (and just as bitter if it's off of Counter Flood).  Can Hell Ivy remain as +Slow?

QuoteOil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

[Personal addition - I see no reason to exempt Holy and Dark.  There are very few Holy skills or weapons in Arena, and while Dark is prevalent, it is also the most easily countered through Black Costume being the best of the Elem Absorb items, among other things.  Koutetsu was also weakened, as was Meiton, so there's no real reason to exempt either element, personally.]


There is one holy skill worth mentioning: Holy.  Letting oil boost Holy will let low-MA short-charge mages 1HKO anything without magic resistance.  This falls into my grand scheme of reserving Holy and Dark for powerful skills that would otherwise be broken with oil modifiers.  As for the prevalence of Black Costumes, that's a problem with failing to entice people away from Dark absorption.  By exempting dark from oil, we pull people away from dark and toward six others.  We give players a choice this way: give a permanent, mild boost to Holy/Dark damage with a Golden Hairpin or go for a temporary, large boost to the six others with oil.

To close, let me echo two of The Damned's proposals that aren't present, since I thought they were inspiring:

Quote from: The DamnedTurn 108 Gems into Coral Ring... [L]et it Absorb: Water and Block: Oil, Poison and Frog


Quote from: The DamnedLet Salty Rage Strengthen All Elements Alongside Other "Fun" Things


"Init: Berserk" is a gimmick tactic (case in point: zero salty rages are being used in S1), so I'm all for letting Salty Rage inherit 108 Gem's purpose and turning 108 Gems into some sorely-needed water-based equipment.  That this "Coral Ring" also blocks Frog and Oil are thematic perks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on May 16, 2012, 01:00:29 pm
Something I've been wondering...

I understand the AI reserves priest spells Protect and Shell for when the unit needs healing. I would like to see that buffed. Has anyone ever played with the idea of making the spell protect, in addition to adding protect, also cure darkness (which is usually inflicted by PA based attacks)? Similarly, shell could be used to also cure a status ailment commonly inflicted by MA based attacks (don't act comes to mind, archer class aside).

Is this even doable? Would the AI be more willing to use those spells then?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pm
(I feel slightly less idiotic about suggesting Coral Ring and Salty Rage now.)

Similarly, I'm glad that this isn't just a back and forth between Raven and I given what a long-winded bastard I can be among other things.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 15, 2012, 09:23:41 pmNOW WITH FILLED IN REASONS.


First and foremost, spoilers won't open if they have apostrophes in the titles, Raven. Even though it's probably the most minor thing since we all already know what formerdeathcorps said and it's only an issue with his versions of Shields, I figured I'd let you know. I think there are some other pieces of punctuation that cause the same problem, but I don't remember and it's not important right now.

Secondly, I'll do yet another list to comment on the clarified stuff. However, it will mostly be the added stuff since I don't want to repeat myself where I don't think it's necessary:

1. Pain Knife being only a "sort of joke": Oh, thank Hera, especially if Hidden Knife and Concentrate are both going to be around.

2. Koutetsu Knife becoming more usable: While Heaven's Cloud becoming usable due to 50% Slow is obvious, I'm still really not seeing how +1 PA is going to help Kotetsu Knife (that much). Please enlighten me/us. Similarly, though somewhat unfair to point this out, this also still does nothing to solve half of the other Katana being crappy at present.

3. All Longbows get an additional +1 WP: I can agree with this.

4. All Books getting condensed WP: I can also agree with this.

5. Jaded Defense Armlets: Yeah, both either need to Null or need to Absorb. I'd rather they both Absorb, especially since I don't have a problem with making Rubber Shoes Absorb Lightning, but that might just be me.

6. Wild Blow costs more MP: Since this is what I was originally saying and you pretty much agreed when you clarified it, I of course still agree with this. I think 15 MP is fine actually, if only because I kinda think that's the same amount of MP that Alacrity/Focus should actually cost. That said, 20 MP might be necessary, but I'd personally rather try 15 MP first, at least until I do (or someone else does) average MP calculations.

7. Preferred Chemist Version in light of Hell Ivy: Well, personally, the most preferred Chemist is a dead one, but that might just be me.... As for what the [New Item] "should be" despite me being somewhat uncomfortable that canceling Poison & Blind and Silence & Berserk, I have one idea that instantly came to mind:

Chronos Tear - Cancels Stop - 150 JP - (Uses Eye Drop animation).

If some of you are so adamant about letting something as ubiquitous as Hell Ivy potentially cause something as devastating as Stop, then as much as I would like for Heal to see more use, it still needs to not be the only source of canceling Stop. As much as I hate strengthening Chemist (or Priest or Monk), it seems one of those classes needs to be able to cancel Stop and Chemist is least obnoxious, even if it's not multi-target while Hell Ivy is--just like how the normal Stop of Time Mages that no one ever uses is.

Of course, I don't think that Hell Ivy should be causing Stop in the first place and it's not exactly like Chemist needs another ability. The only viable things left for it to cure are Slow, which it shouldn't be doing, and Charm, which might be fine but only if Esuna and Stigma Magic lose it even though the Chemist would likely self-target that cure instead of using something else now. So, preferably, Chemists shouldn't get anything else IMO, but if they "have to" and this Hell Ivy change goes through....

8. Prepare's Name: Personally, I think "Iron Will" is a good name that should still see use and it's not too confusing even with the shift.

9. Warpath and Holy March: I was thinking about this a while before Gaignun mentioned it, but I didn't feel confident enough to suggest it. However, I agree with Gaignun that they should both become +2, if only for the sake of Brave Up and Faith Up, respectively.

10. Dia going to Priest unchanged: I'm still going to have to say "Oh Hades no" here big time for Priest getting Dia from Paladin, especially wholesale. Call me "nerf-happy" or whatever, but there is no way that Priest needs something as almost half as strong as Holy yet a fifth as cheap, instant AND with the ability to Blind. Yeah. That is...well, let's just say something needs to change here if Priest is getting Dia at all. Big time.

11. Raise 2 becoming more expensive: Yeah, that bullshit should have been 300 JP yesterday, so I can agree with that.

12. Esuna becoming less expensive: I can also agree with this, if only for the sake of normalizing everything to be divisible by 50. I'm not sure it should go all the way down to 200, though, since it's pretty damn good, so 250 JP seems a bit more "fair". It's not terribly important though and I can see why you want to make it that cheap in light of Stigma Magic, but I'd personally rather make Stigma Magic cost more JP....

13. Holy becoming avoidable: I...actually don't agree with this, at least if "you" are so insistent on Priest getting Dia. Holy then becomes inferior to Dia since that's also evadable, but costs a hell of a lot less and is instant and can cause Blind, so you can miss with it a hell of a lot more with a hell of a lot less risk. [/hell of a lot]

14. Flare ignoring Reflect: Yeah...no. If this ignores Reflect, then it needs to become evadable like Holy is being proposed to be. Considering that everything else Wizard/Black Magic(k) has is already evadable, this is a poor option. So, then it would need to lose some power...this even though it's already weaker than Strengthened Holy, which is now technically weaker than Strengthened Dia. So...yeah.

15. Time Magic(k): Sure, I can agree with all of these. I feel slightly better about Embargo's Immobilize being AoE 2 now as well.

16. Accidental Summoner Agreement: Let it be known that I'm an idiot--like that was ever in doubt--and that I only agreed to the CT > 4 thing because I was misreading as CT < 4. Why should the longer spells be less reliable ones when there's literally the opposite case for all other magic(k)? I guess I could understand Leviathan and Salamander getting that treatment due to their sheer AoE even though they're currently still mediocre as hell and with this change become even worse, especially in Salamander's case where it has to "compete" with the still unavoidable Ifrit. So I actually don't agree with this at all. Please reverse it or do...something at least try to do something to make Leviathan and Salamander worth using if they're going to become avoidable.

17. Odin & Lich: That said, I suppose I need to restate that I did read these properly (even though formerdeathcorps failed to mention Lich was becoming non-elemental). As such, I will restate that I still agree with these changes, especially with the chance of Dead being "Standard".

18. Life Song & Wiznaibus: I forgot to ask this last time: These two are still 100% and unavoidable, correct? Because that might be kinda problematic with the Poison that Wiznaibus is now adding.... Of course, that Dancer shouldn't become even weaker than Bard like it already is, so....

19. Holy & Dark benefiting from Oil: Yeah, no. Besides what Gaignun pointed out with Holy (the spell), it would also apply to Dia and Demi 2 at the very least. Dia, as it is now, becomes an instant 75% Holy with the chance to Blind for 6 MP. Demi 2 becomes multi-target instant death even if taking my suggestion to make it do 50% HP.

Furthermore, Holy & Dark are already two of the most used elements, whose only real competition at present is Fire. Ice and, to an even lesser degree, Lightning see middling use while the other three elements hardly see any; we already saw my Water rant.  Holy & Dark don't need help. Perhaps they can come to benefit from Oil eventually, especially if weakness is lowered to x1.5 from its current x2. However, as it stands now, they should probably sit this boost out.

20. Poison becoming finite again: Yes, this needs to happen, at least if Poison is persisting beyond death.


I'm not really what side of the Poison "debate" I fall just yet outside of the above, though I personally don't mind Phoenix Down and Reraise status getting screwed over. Wish, much like Fighter, is an unfortunate casualty.

Next, I'll respond to posts by people who aren't Raven.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 15, 2012, 10:54:32 pm
Esuna has a charge time.  Relying on it to restore Poison on units revived without Raise will be a crapshoot.  Relying on it to restore one's own poison will be impossible.  0 CT skills are the only reliable salvation.

I understand where you're coming from about resurrection loops.  I always thought AoE was the answer to breaking them, though.  What I'm saying is, a team that can't break an opponent's resurrection loop is a team that's too reliant on single-target attacks.

As for pushing people away from Raise, what other form of resurrection are people being pushed to?  The way I see it, all forms are becoming worse or staying bad.  Dying will become more costly, so either stacking pure offense for one-hit kills (eg. FDC's S1 team) or stacking pure defense to avoid dying (eg. Wiz's S1 team) will be the go-to strategies.  Aren't these strategies viable enough already?  Maybe I'm alone on this, but I find the battle where teams go back and forth with offense and defense to be the most exciting.


I rather agree with all of this, though at the same time I realize that the "back and forth" thing can easily slip into the rather pointless sandbagging battles that Raven and whoever else supports this are trying to avoid with this change to Poison. Due to the subtlety at which this often occurs, I'm not sure that there even is a compromise on this unfortunately.

We can all agree that Poison in FFX was/is damn dangerous, though.

Quote from: Fantactic1316 on May 15, 2012, 11:37:08 pm
Eh, personally I don't think a unit should be able to negate my Light Robe unless they're packing Armor Break. Poison takes away Regen, with no hope of having it re-cast, and if it persists past death then the problem just gets even worse. But that's just me, I guess.


Yeah, that really needs to be addressed. Kinda thought that Regen would reassert itself, but if it really doesn't, then the AI probably thinks that it still has Regen status on, which makes it not re-apply the status to get rid of Poison. Sigh....

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amSo it covers... only Light Robe's and P-Bag's Dark weakness, I think?  Too bad it won't do anything for Fire, Ice, Gold, and Mythril Shield's weaknesses, which is unfortunate, as I believe these weaknesses are what are preventing their adoption.   Crystal Shield will remain specialty shield.


It also covers Cursed Ring's weakness to Fire, but, yeah, that's about it since pretty much all other equipment that's weak to anything is a shield, which is what Crystal Shield is currently taking up. I hadn't thought about that all until you pointed out, so good eye/mind.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amI think Defense Ring is going to need a little more to entice people.  +8 evasion is like garnishing shit with parsley (excuse my language); it still smells bad.  Maybe give it "Absorb: Earth" instead of EV to round out accessories' absorption of "secondary elements."  This is just a thought.


I rather agree that +8/+8 in terms of P-EV and M-EV is dubious at best. However, I'm not sure how much I agree with Absorb Earth, especially with Feather Boots around. Of course, Null is different Absorb and I definitely wouldn't be opposed to it, especially if it's in combination with Defense Ring blocking Silence instead pf Berserk and maybe even with evasion as well (since Defense Ring is otherwise that outclassed).

Quote from: Fanatic on May 16, 2012, 01:00:29 pm
Something I've been wondering...

I understand the AI reserves priest spells Protect and Shell for when the unit needs healing. I would like to see that buffed. Has anyone ever played with the idea of making the spell protect, in addition to adding protect, also cure darkness (which is usually inflicted by PA based attacks)? Similarly, shell could be used to also cure a status ailment commonly inflicted by MA based attacks (don't act comes to mind, archer class aside).

Is this even doable? Would the AI be more willing to use those spells then?


It's doable by making Protect cancel Blind and Shell cancel Don't Act or making Protect and Shell cure a bit of damage, though the latter would necessitate making/slightly tweaking formulas that currently don't 100% add status when they heal (unless they're canceling something).

Priest hardly needs more of a buff, though, and the AI has proven that it will use Protect and Shell, just that it will, as you said, a) reserve it for when the unit needs healing and b) when it can't heal said unit. Usually.


Finally, it would be nice to have FFMaster (or PX) comment on this when he has the time considering he's ultimately the boss of these changes. However, I'm guessing he's busy on top of being in a different timezone and on a completely different continent than most of us, so....

(Also, since I'm already behind today--thanks Firefox--and need to leave to soon, I'll proofread this later like the lazy bastard I am. Sorry.)

Bold EDIT: Well, barring that utterly visible, manually-induced fuck-up that led half of the post being bold as has happened a dozen times before. I really need to learn from mistakes.

Timid EDIT: Now that this has been properly proof-read, it actually wasn't as horrible as I was expecting/as it usually is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 16, 2012, 04:03:25 pm
Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pm
Yeah, that really needs to be addressed. Kinda thought that Regen would reassert itself, but if it really doesn't, then the AI probably thinks that it still has Regen status on, which makes it not re-apply the status to get rid of Poison. Sigh....


It's not that the AI thinks it still has Regen, it's that Regen still can't be cast, even though they've got Poison now. Watch my recent match with Wiz. At about 4:30 my Light Robe Priest gets Kiyomori'd, then my Archer uses Masamune on her and she stays Poisoned, gaining Haste, but not Regen.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 16, 2012, 05:38:25 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amI'm with The Damned on this: can we use a name other than Glitter Shield?  This is what I think of when I read the word "Glitter":


Blame FDC for all the bad names.  :p

Glitter Shield is a terrible name, agreed.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amSo it covers... only Light Robe's and P-Bag's Dark weakness, I think?  Too bad it won't do anything for Fire, Ice, Gold, and Mythril Shield's weaknesses, which is unfortunate, as I believe these weaknesses are what are preventing their adoption.   Crystal Shield will remain specialty shield.


You missed the most important one and I think a couple other random ones, but yeah.  It is still a bit of a specialty shield, but it's one that's actually usable unlike the current one.  Niche items are still important as long as they're usable, which was the main point of this change - turn a useless Shield into a better one that addresses a few niches that need a boost instead of being in a niche that no one cares about.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amI think Defense Ring is going to need a little more to entice people.  +8 evasion is like garnishing shit with parsley (excuse my language); it still smells bad.  Maybe give it "Absorb: Earth" instead of EV to round out accessories' absorption of "secondary elements."  This is just a thought.


I'd be fine with that, the 8/8 is something I also think is shit but was FDC's random idea.  Earth Absorb would sit fine with me, there.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amIf you're looking for an advantage of Flare over Holy, you got it by making Holy evadeable and buffing mantles.  Having Flare pierce reflect is a slap in the face to reflect.  I say we keep Dispel Magic as the reflect counter.  If Flare isn't useful enough, I suggest we lower its MP or CT instead.


Reflect is still amazing either way, though, and Holy will still be usually preferrable for lower cost, CT, etc.  The reason we're shying away from buffing the CT/MP on Holy or reducing it on Flare is to keep them as distinct skills - they're both nukes, but Flare is the non-Element guaranteed nuke, whereas Holy is the more powerful but riskier one.  (There's also a reason basically no one uses Flare right now - it's inferior to Holy in every way while located in an inferior skillset.  Though, between Black Magic buffs, M-EV buffs, etc., losing Reflectable on Flare can probably wait until we see whether the other changes are enough to put them on even ground first.)

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amI mentioned this before, but these proposals shadow Faith UP and Brave UP.  If these movement abilities must be kept, then please lower the increments to +2.


The thing with Brave UP and Faith UP is though, they cost less JP (200 v 300 on the Movements) and give more Brave and Faith than they do (5 v 3).  The main issue with Brave UP and Faith UP has been that they're mostly useful on things like Song or Lore teams that trigger them a lot (as far as Faith UP goes, Brave UP is triggered by Countergrasp and just kinda fucked either way) - and really, these Movements don't impede those teams, as they're going to want their Movements to be things like Move-MP UP, etc.  An important thing to remember is that a mage with Holy March is one without Move-MP UP, and a warrior with Warpath is one without Move +1 or Move-HP UP, which are currently key skills for them to the point they're more likely to go without a Reaction than a Movement.  While these are more generally usable, they're in a more contested skill slot, meaning the opportunity cost offsets them quite a bit.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amSome summons, particularly Salamander and Leviathan, are going to be dramatically underwhelming with this change.  We'll need to buff these summons' damage or give them a status proc to compensate.


Works for me.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amWe are trading one evil for another with this one.  Hell Ivy is just as common as Carve Model, and double-panel Stop can be just as game-ending as double-panel Petrify (and just as bitter if it's off of Counter Flood).


You can recover from a Stop, you can't recover from a Petrify (usually).  When discussing it, we decided that +Slow on Hell Ivy clearly isn't cutting it as a powerful common proc, and +Petrify on Carve Model is basically just pissing people off, hence the reverse.  There are two big points about Stop - one, it wears off, so if your units don't get focused out fast they will get back in the fight, unlike Petrified ones, and if they do get focused out, they at least draw fire for a time, again unlike Petrified units, allowing your non-Stopped units to do things without taking too much hate.  The second point is simply that a Stopped unit has to be KOed - meaning skills like Raise, Phoenix Down, etc. work to bring them back into the fight and any reasonable team can at least get their units back up once they're killed, unlike with Petrify where it's like "welp, I don't have anti-Petrify, that unit's out of the fight for good."   Those are two really big distinctions that make Stop far less threatening than Petrify while leaving it threatening enough to make Geomancy desirable. 

(Another thing to note about Hell Ivy is that it doesn't have maps like the Arena map which are nothing but Hell Ivy tiles to my knowledge, another issue Carve Model had - it wasn't just common, but there were more than just a couple maps that were both literally NOTHING BUT Carve Model and reasonably flat.  While Hell Ivy is common, those situations with it aren't.)

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amThere is one holy skill worth mentioning: Holy.  Letting oil boost Holy will let low-MA short-charge mages 1HKO anything without magic resistance.  This falls into my grand scheme of reserving Holy and Dark for powerful skills that would otherwise be broken with oil modifiers.  As for the prevalence of Black Costumes, that's a problem with failing to entice people away from Dark absorption.  By exempting dark from oil, we pull people away from dark and toward six others.  We give players a choice this way: give a permanent, mild boost to Holy/Dark damage with a Golden Hairpin or go for a temporary, large boost to the six others with oil.


So you're going to take a skill that's already really fast, have a second unit dedicated to spreading Oil, then have the first unit use Short Charged Holy casts at 2x damage in the hopes for a OHKO that at min MA may not still oneshot bulky units?  This seems... no better than just using an MA Stacked Holy and having a second unit that supports via other methods.  You give people multiple methods of trying to use Holy instead of just one, potentially a method of making use of Dia, etc., and really the only Dark skill of note is Kotetsu which is seeing a nerf.  There's Meiton but Fuuton and Suiton are already boosted by Oil so it's basically irrelevant.  I just see no reason to not let people experiment with every element considering trying to double the rare Holy or Dark skills that already see use is basically superfluous and Oil is not something that is easy to inflict.

As for Black Costume prevalence - it's been like that even when Dark was a terrible Element.  The main issue has always been that Water (Rubber Costume) and Wind (Santa Costume) are just worse, and the Fire/Dark combo covers both a lot of AoE skills and that pointless Weak: Dark that's on H Bag still.  It also has synergy with Undead teams, which back then were also popular despite Dark being kinda shit and them still being Weak to Holy.  Black Costume did compete with Rubber Costume somewhat if only because Lightning was as good as both Fire and Dark combined, but now that Dark and Fire have gotten better, Rubber Costume's fallen to the wayside, especially with Wizard currently being shit.  Basically, Black Costume has always been amazing and basically the best of the "Absorbs two Elements" clothing even before Dark and Fire were even half as good as they are now, and it's going to take making the other Elements (Wind and Water mostly) not suck to fix that, not adding random exceptions to Oil that just stifle creativity.  The issue is finding space to actually make Wind and Water not suck, since they both contain very few moves, and most of them are smart-targeted meaning you can't build any kind of Absorb team with them...

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 am"Init: Berserk" is a gimmick tactic (case in point: zero salty rages are being used in S1), so I'm all for letting Salty Rage inherit 108 Gem's purpose


Counter-point: Kagesougi Gunners.  The primary users of Salty Rage for Berserking are Stone Gunners, and Berserk Stone Gunners are currently overshadowed by the imbalanced Kagesougi Gunner who does the same damage without needing to be Berserked.  If you look to Arena exhibition matches before Kagesougi Gunning became a thing, Berserkers were actually used.  They weren't uber awesome every team common, but they were used in a respectable enough number of teams.  Then, Kagesougi Gunning with 17 WP Blaze Guns appeared and did just as much or more damage without needing to be Berserked.  Ergo, I can't credit the lack of Berserkers in S1 as a reason to do in Salty Rage, since pre-Kagesougi Gunner evidence contradicts.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 16, 2012, 01:21:32 amand turning 108 Gems into some sorely-needed water-based equipment.  That this "Coral Ring" also blocks Frog and Oil are thematic perks.


The main thing against this is that Absorbing Water won't help a Water Absorb team see use.  There are very few Water skills - Suiton, Leviathan, Water Ball, Grand Cross + Whale Whisker, and... are there even any others?  My point being that the majority of them don't even hit your party are thoroughly unreliable.  Unless Water is heavily fleshed out, making an Absorb Water accessory only makes these already borderline skills worse, not better, since they're now counterable by your enemy but you can't really do anything yourself.

Quote from: Fanatic on May 16, 2012, 01:00:29 pmIs this even doable? Would the AI be more willing to use those spells then?


You cannot Cancel: and Add: Statuses with the same skill.  A simpler method of making the AI use these skills "better" is to switch them over to Raise's formula and heal 1% HP.  Why this hasn't been done already is beyond me, and I push for it every time I can remember.  But it just... hasn't happened. :|

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pm2. Koutetsu Knife becoming more usable: While Heaven's Cloud becoming usable due to 50% Slow is obvious, I'm still really not seeing how +1 PA is going to help Kotetsu Knife (that much). Please enlighten me/us. Similarly, though somewhat unfair to point this out, this also still does nothing to solve half of the other Katana being crappy at present.


Kotetsu Knife is a DPS weapon.  +1 PA is moar DPS.  The main issue with the "bad" Katana though, personally, is that Katana are just sloppily designed with random Yes 2S, No 2S, yes 2H, no 2H thrown around when the entire point of the Samurai class is its innate Two Hands.  If it were just me calling the shots, I'd nuke and re-up the shit from start to make it all compatible with Samurai's innate Two Hands and make them all better and more consistent to use.  However, the drawbacks of collaboration...

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmJaded Defense Armlets: Yeah, both either need to Null or need to Absorb. I'd rather they both Absorb, especially since I don't have a problem with making Rubber Shoes Absorb Lightning, but that might just be me.


The main issue with this is that it makes the respective Absorb Shields that much less useful, to me.  I'm not too bothered either way, though, I happen to like Absorb teams, as my notes on FFT: Redesign probably have hinted at many times.



Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmChronos Tear - Cancels Stop - 150 JP - (Uses Eye Drop animation).


Works for me.  But note, they don't "have to" gain anything, I even noted that the slot could go unused in my post.  It is just there, the merging covers an issue currently in Arena (Berserk has no means of being coped with when used as a debuff sans Death) and saves space while making two terrible Chemist abilities better.  The saved space doesn't actually need to be used right away, if at all, it is just there should it ever be needed.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pm10. Dia going to Priest unchanged: I'm still going to have to say "Oh Hades no" here big time for Priest getting Dia from Paladin, especially wholesale. Call me "nerf-happy" or whatever, but there is no way that Priest needs something as almost half as strong as Holy yet a fifth as cheap, instant AND with the ability to Blind. Yeah. That...something needs to change here if Priest is getting Dia at all. Big time.


Actually, it's only about a third as strong.  (Holy has a Y of 16, Dia has a Y of 6.)  In fact, most Staff attacks should do about the same damage as a Dia in a Priest's hands, unless stacked for Magic Attack UP, due to how low the Y is.  Dia really is far weaker than you credit it.  Though in your favor, I will say Dia could probably use a JP cost boost to about 200 or 250 if it is moved directly to Priest.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmEsuna becoming less expensive: I can also agree with this, if only for the sake of normalizing everything to be divisible by 50. I'm not sure it should go all the way down to 200, though, since it's pretty damn good, so 250 JP seems a bit more "fair". It's not terribly important though and I can see why you want to make it that cheap in light of Stigma Magic, but I'd personally rather make Stigma Magic cost more JP....


It's less about Stigma Magic, and more about making using Esuna to heal your status-laden unit actually attractive instead of just waiting for it to die and casting Raise 2 on it.  Like this, it costs as much (JP-wise) to Esuna your Blinded Poisoned Silenced unit as it used to in order to just let it die and Raise 2 it at full power.  So you can either keep the Raise 2 dump-and-revive tactic at more cost, or use Esuna at the cost of old Raise 2.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmHoly becoming avoidable: I...actually don't agree with this, at least if "you" are so insistent on Priest getting Dia. Holy then becomes inferior to Dia since that's also evadable, but costs a hell of a lot less and is instant and can cause Blind, so you can miss with it a hell of a lot more with a hell of a lot less risk.


See: Dia.  You're clearly mismatching quality here.  If you see a unit doing 210 with Holy (eg), they're only going to do maybe 80 with a Dia.  A stacked unit that does 350 with a Holy does maybe 125 with a Dia.  Even if you miss a Holy, you're going to kill them with Holy before you do with Dia almost every time. 

ITT: Numbers.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmAccidental Summoner Agreement: Let it be known that I'm an idiot--like that was ever in doubt--and that I only agreed to the CT > 4 thing because I was misreading as CT < 4. Why should the longer spells be less reliable ones when there's literally the opposite case for all other magic(k)? I guess I could understand Leviathan and Salamander getting that treatment due to their sheer AoE even though they're currently still mediocre as hell and with this change become even worse, especially in Salamander's case where it has to "compete" with the still unavoidable Ifrit. So I actually don't agree with this at all. Please reverse it or do...something at least try to do something to make Leviathan and Salamander worth using if they're going to become avoidable.


Bold loses meaning when you use it so much.

It's intentionally reversed from Black Magic - you get guaranteed AoE chip damage from Summon Magic and guaranteed singular high damage from Black Magic.  The high-end Summons are evadable to offset their damage + AoE, because otherwise the majority of viable magic is still ignoring M-EV and making the stat worthless.  It also adds better distinction between Summoner and Wizard, something that was honestly lacking as far as their DPS went beyond "Wizard does a bit more damage but Summoner is unevadable, hits more dudes, and accesses far more than just DPS all in one skillset."  This way, Summoner and Wizard have a bit more contrast.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pm18. Life Song & Wiznaibus: I forgot to ask this last time: These two are still 100% and unavoidable, correct?


Correct.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmbecomes an instant 75% Holy with the chance to Blind for 6 MP. Demi 2 becomes multi-target instant death even if taking my suggestion to make it do 50% HP.


1. Demi 2 still sucks.  It's sucked for a long time, bro.  Nothing's come along to change that - in fact, I think over time it's only grown to suck more.  If Oil doubling Demi 2 makes it actually worth acknowledging, more power to Demi 2.
2. It's more like a 60% Holy.
3. It's a two-part combo, where I could just use Holy as one part and kill you while saving a turn on my unit that would be casting Oil.  Having to commit two turns to doing 60% of a Holy?  lol.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmFurthermore, Holy & Dark are already two of the most used elements, whose only real competition at present is Fire. Ice and, to an even lesser degree, Lightning see middling use while the other three elements hardly see any; we already saw my Water rant.  Holy & Dark don't need help. Perhaps they can come to benefit from Oil eventually, especially if weakness is lowered to x1.5 from its current x2. However, as it stands now, they should probably sit this boost out.


Holy "Element" doesn't see use.  Let's not kid ourselves.  The Holy skill sees use, and is basically the only Holy Element skill that sees use.  There's a reason Chameleon Robe and Magic Ring suck despite absorbing what's supposedly one of the most common Elements.  As for Dark, yeah, it's awesome now because Kotetsu is good and Meiton is a Ninjitsu, but you can get more use out of just having two Meiton or Kotetsu users than an Oil user and a Kotetsu or Meiton user, since those Skills are good enough to not really need doubling from an outside source - which is why the damage boost is 2x to begin with, if I'm devoting two turns to a combo, I better get two turns worth of damage out of it, or it's not worth doing.  The only real advantage to a status like Oil is that your opponent only gets to dodge or React once.

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pm20. Poison becoming finite again: Yes, this needs to happen, at least if Poison is persisting beyond death.

I'm not really what side of the Poison "debate" I fall just yet outside of the above, though I personally don't mind Phoenix Down and Reraise status getting screwed over. Wish, much like Fighter, is an unfortunate causality.


My most preferred method of buffing Poison, honestly, is to make them both also heal/damage 1/8th MP, but people apparently didn't like actually making Light Robe usable on mages and making Poison actually crippling in a manner that isn't MAKE IT DO LEET UBER DAMAGE.  Again, the flaws of working with other people...

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmIt's doable by making Protect cancel Blind and Shell cancel Don't Act or making Protect and Shell cure a bit of damage, though the latter would necessitate making/slightly tweaking formulas that currently don't 100% add status when they heal (unless they're canceling something).


Yeah, the only way to make the Cancel/Add work would be to make ALL sources of those Statuses do it by making it something the status does innately.  And like I mentioned before, you don't need to tweak anything, just use the Raise formula.  Pretty sure that covers everything except for Draw Out, but the only buffs Draw Out dishes out anymore are Haste/Regen, so...

Quote from: The Damned on May 16, 2012, 02:19:20 pmFinally, it would be nice to have FFMaster (or PX) comment on this when he has the time considering he's ultimately the boss of these changes. However, I'm guessing he's busy on top of being in a different timezone and on a completely different continent than most of us, so....


You know he rarely posts on these things.  :p
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 16, 2012, 06:10:29 pm
I feel like Overwhelm and Unyielding could use a small tweak. Unyielding moreso than Overwhelm I guess. Basically my point is that if a tank unit runs Unyielding they'll be targeted less frequently by the AI since the AI will be doing less damage to them (at least I'm pretty sure that's how the AI works). Obviously this is counterintuitive to the purpose of a tanking unit so I propose that it adds 20% HP instead of 20% damage/healing reduction so that they'll be targeted more frequently by the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 16, 2012, 06:12:48 pm
Except the AI doesn't like targeting high HP units either. =P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 16, 2012, 06:43:56 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on May 16, 2012, 06:12:48 pm
Except the AI doesn't like targeting high HP units either. =P


I was under the impression that they targeted the unit that they could do the most damage to. Do they target based on how much they can do as a percentage of the unit's total health?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 16, 2012, 07:06:12 pm
Quote from: dacheat on May 16, 2012, 06:43:56 pm
I was under the impression that they targeted the unit that they could do the most damage to. Do they target based on how much they can do as a percentage of the unit's total health?


This is correct.  The units that go ignored are those with the highest effective total HP when that unit attempts to target enemies.  I even mention this in my Arena AI Battling Guide 2.0 that the AI will focus out the unit with the lowest effective CurHP first.

Tl;dr that change won't actually do anything to AI priorities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 17, 2012, 12:01:58 am
(Yeah, I know that I can overuse bold at times. I'm going to try not to for once. Let's all look forward to my miserable failure.)

Yeah...I'm not even going to bother quoting this time, especially since I'm just going to be replying to Raven only again. I'll also be trying to keep this short for once. (Ha!)

That said, I'll be proof-reading this post thoroughly for once, so keeping it shorter will make that task easier, especially since I've yet to do it for my last one, what with just having gotten home:

1. Names: Meh. They're rather difficult to think up; you should see some of my horrible ones. I was more just confused, at least in the case of Glitter Shield, as to why he made up a completely new name when there's at least a couple of shields that still had usable names or when Venetian Shield could still be used (unless he really hate Venice or Italy).

2. Nuking Hiroshima Katana: Yeah...I can agree with that, though at present it's relatively unimportant. It is pretty much the same reason that Hidden Knife currently screws over most Ninja Whatever and even there most of those swords are compatible with Ninja's innate Two Swords, so Sasuke Knife and the already changing Spell Edge are the only crappy ones; of course, that's not counting Short Edge either due to the upcoming change in Oil.

3. Chronos Tear & Hell Ivy: Yeah, I'm rather aware that Chemists don't "need" anything else, which is why I noted that. Trust me, I probably hate Chemists more than anyone here. That said, if Hell Ivy is keeping Stop (and you make a sensible argument for it, even if I'm still a bit uneasy), then something besides Heal should probably get rid of it like I said as much I would like to see Basic Skill used more. Still wouldn't mind all of Elemental/Geomancy becoming elemental though....

4. Dia "only" being 33% of Holy: Hunh. Really? I thought it was 3/8 for the same reason you pointed out, hence being "almost half", but I didn't do the math for that, so my bad if you're correct. But, yeah, it seems like it at least needs increased JP cost if nothing else. Even when "only" being a third, it does a good damn bit of damage and magic classes went out of their way to use it when it in something as crappy for them as Paladin's Skill Set. Now that it's in something excellent like White Magic(k)...yeah.

5. Summons with CT > 4 being subject to M-EV: Heh. "Chip damage". I guess I'll agree then, if only because you admit that Leviathan and Salamander need to become more powerful as compensation. Still think that Salamander should become something else, but meh.

6. Wiznaibus with Poison at 100%: Yeah...Poison definitely needs to become finite then. Otherwise we'll get two Mimes, two Dancer spam even worse than last time.

7. Wind: Eh... I don't think Wind is that crappy or, at least, it's not nearly as crappy as Water even if that's not saying much. For one, it already has a hell of lot more abilities than Water has, even though a lot of it is also Geomancy: {Silf, Kamaitachi, Sand Storm, Gusty Wind, Heaven's Cloud, Fuuton, Tornado}. While 3 of the 7 are again subject to terrain's whimsy (unless something triggers off of Float constantly, in which case Water is even more screwed) and 1 is smart-targeting, Wind actually has AoE to absorb beyond Grand Cross unlike Water. [/breaking bold agreement]

As for why people aren't using it...hell if I know. With Magic Ring's use utterly eclipsed by Reflect Ring at present, Tornado finally being theoretically usable now partly because of that and Wind having more weapons than Water does for Grand Cross (even if more of them are of...dubious quality), it seems like it should be at least possible to make a competent Wind-absorb team, especially one that no longer is defeated just because it didn't have Steal Accessory. It's just a lot easier to make other teams--Kagesougi, tanky stuff, various boost-related stuff, etc.--at present still since having only one magic(k)al all targeting AoE and only one physical all targeting AoE (that you makes you pretty much have to carry Slow immunity) is probably still not "enough". Still a lot more than Water has though.

8. Water: Yeah, I agree that Coral Ring would make things worse if we keep only the same four Water-element skills. Hence why I was asking for FFMaster (or PX) to convert more things to Water or create more abilities for Water, dummy. :p

Regardless, we do still need something else to Absorb Water, so....

9. Heart! Er...Holy, Dark & Oil: Sort of forgetting Dia there when it comes to Holy element, even as much as I'm perhaps overestimating it; I've similarly talked about why Magic Ring isn't seeing use "even" with its Holy absorb--Chameleon Robe is...less straight-forward, though it's strictly inferior to at least four other robes at present. At present, it doesn't help that Grand Cross is no longer best with Excalibur, but with a freaking Gun.

As for Holy & Dark benefiting from Oil, I still can't entirely buy your argument given that almost every instance of adding Oil goes hand-in-hand with damage. So it's not like you're giving up your turn to try to Unction your opponent to cause All Oil and nothing else should you miss. When it's on things like Hawkeye (sure damage with CT), Fire 2 (multi-target with presumably good damage) and a few other things, you have to keep in mind that adding Oil to the opponent (in ARENA) is already coming alongside damage; hell, I think the only thing that's proposed to add Oil that doesn't do damage is Nameless Dance. I might hesitantly agree with Holy & Dark elements benefiting from Oil if not for that; I have to otherwise agree that all it will do is make Black Costume even more popular, even if that piece of equipment will probably always be the most popular of the absorbing ones.

10. FFMaster & PX: Yeah, I know. I figure it's worth a shot, however low. As with most things, I hold no hope.

11. Raise formula for adding status: Hmmm...it works 100% of the time? I could have sworn that it didn't, but it's been so long since I've been able to test things.... Regardless, wouldn't that kinda screw over Cursed Ring/Undead users despite what you were saying earlier? (I still don't see most of the buffs you were saying at there when it comes to Undead.) Or would the AI be "stupid" enough to damage its ally for 1% "just" to add Protect or Shell?


I feel like there was one more thing I wanted to comment on, but meh.

Meh EDIT: Oh, I remembered the last thing I wanted to mention:

12. Initial Berserk + Stone Gun: It's always...annoyed me that Berserk works with Guns (and Crossbows). It just doesn't make sense and, frankly, I'm not all that much more convinced that Initial Berserk needs to stay around just for one weapon. I suppose with Longbows and Crossbows becoming better may be it might have more combinations to use, but when its merit will always remain "hit things really hard, repeatedly and without variation", you can understand how people might be...skeptical of it to put it mildly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Pierce on May 17, 2012, 12:51:03 am
Let me start by saying that my suggestions-to-come may have already been mentioned. I tried to skim through the text replies above, but I simply can't make time to read the mutliple essays. I tried, I really did, and I skimmed it so I may have got some of the basics of what you propose, but that's it.

Anyways...

I'm not a fan of Dia going to Priest. Despite the fact that it's not a heavy damage attack, Priests shouldn't really have that much offence going for them anyway in my opinion. At the moment there are people running Bard/Priest as primary/secondary because Holy is strong enough that this still leaves them with a powerful offensive unit that can revive, heal, cure status, and add defensive status. I'm sure Holy is seeing a nerf, but realistically shouldn't people be inclined to give priests an offensive secondary? At the moment, that's not necessary because unless your enemy is absorbing Holy, your priest is plenty offensive even with a blank secondary.

I also don't like Poison persisting through death. Raise/Raise2 are the better methods of reviving as is. They're exceptionally common, and they should be, Raise2 essentially brings a unit back as if it was never hurt. If Poison persists through death, Wish, Revive, and Phoenix Down will all feel the pain big. Yes PD is really common, and it can be annoying to watch PD-loops, but that's why you throw in an AoE attack once in a while. It's not like it needs to be a powerful AoE, the unit comes back with less than 20HP.

I would argue that Frog should be removed from BioII, but that might fall on deaf ears. Frog's a pretty annoying status. I see it's been changed to remove on death, but I'm still sort of meh on it sticking with BioII.


Idea for a new skill, feel free to shoot it down. It deals 50% damage to the user, and heals 50% damage to the enemy BUT it is undead reversible. Meaning an undead user would heal 50% damage and deal 50% damage. Maybe it's a bit OP, but Cursed Ring blows chunks right now, it could use a boost. If this idea gets dismissed, can Cursed Ring at least see some sort of boost? Maybe Reflect or Innocent, to cancel out the very realistic chance that said undead unit gets OHKO'd from Raise2.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 17, 2012, 01:46:29 am
Wall of text incoming.  I'm going to be up until 6 AM tonight making up for the time I lost putting this together.  I'm borrowing The Damned's bolding technique, as it makes arguments much easier to follow

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizThough, between Black Magic buffs, M-EV buffs, etc., losing Reflectable on Flare can probably wait until we see whether the other changes are enough to put them on even ground first.


This is a good idea.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizAn important thing to remember is that a mage with Holy March is one without Move-MP UP, and a warrior with Warpath is one without Move +1 or Move-HP UP, which are currently key skills for them to the point they're more likely to go without a Reaction than a Movement.


Yes, Move-XP UP and Move +1 are better.  These skills are also more expensive.  You currently have Holy March and Warpath at 300 JP.  If +2 Brave/Faith seems too low for 300 JP, then by all means make the JP cost lower.  Then they can serve as sorely needed mid-range movement abilities while not stepping on Brave/Faith UP's toes.  Players might even be able to equip both reaction and movement abilities when they otherwise would have to choose one or the other.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizThose are two really big distinctions that make Stop far less threatening than Petrify while leaving it threatening enough to make Geomancy desirable.


Yes, Stop is the lesser of two evils.  What bugs me about Stop is that there is currently only one way to cure it, and it's on an inferior skill set.  If we go ahead with The Damned's "Chronos Tear" (which I think is an excellent suggestion, by the way), then I won't mind putting Stop back on Hell Ivy.

On a related note,

Quote from: The DamnedAs much as I hate strengthening Chemist (or Priest or Monk), it seems one of those classes needs to be able to cancel Stop and Chemist is least obnoxious...


While it looks bad on paper, I think giving the item skill set yet another means of healing status is fine.  People rarely learn every status healing anyway, and 150 JP for a status with a short CT is rather steep.  Even if the cost was set to 100 JP (the same cost for curing the more debilitating Petrify), people will probably still choose to wait out Stop rather than bother curing it.  But choice is the important action we're providing here.  Currently, all teams without Basic Skill must wait out Stop whether they'd like to or not.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizSo you're going to take a skill that's already really fast, have a second unit dedicated to spreading Oil, then have the first unit use Short Charged Holy casts at 2x damage in the hopes for a OHKO that at min MA may not still oneshot bulky units? This seems... no better than just using an MA Stacked Holy and having a second unit that supports via other methods.  You give people multiple methods of trying to use Holy instead of just one, potentially a method of making use of Dia, etc., and really the only Dark skill of note is Kotetsu which is seeing a nerf.  There's Meiton but Fuuton and Suiton are already boosted by Oil so it's basically irrelevant.  I just see no reason to not let people experiment with every element considering trying to double the rare Holy or Dark skills that already see use is basically superfluous and Oil is not something that is easy to inflict.


Very few units are bulky enough to live through a 2x damage Holy.  If Holy is modified by oil, a 12 MA 70-faith mage with Holy strengthening (we're talking a Priest with only a Golden Hairpin and a Magic Ring here) will deal 378 damage with a short-charged Holy to a 40-faith target.  That same mage will deal 236 damage to multiple 40-faith targets with a short-charged Cyclops.  Damage goes to 528 and 330, respectively, at 70 faith.  I don't want to force people to stick to 40 faith (or Setiemson, which I'd like to remove along with Cherche, but that's an argument for a different post) to survive teams that will exploit these oil-nuke combinations.  I want to push people away from extremes and introduce them to the middle, which is currently better described as No Man's Land.  Giving people more reason to stick to low faith to avoid 1HKOs doesn't hurt just Holy and Cyclops; it hurts all magic.

I must argue that Holy-oil is better than MA-stacked Holy and a second support.  A unit with short-charge Holy is useful for other things, such as short-charge Raise - or short-charge anything really; Short Charge is an amazing support skill - and the unit spreading oil will be doing its own damage as it spreads it.  For example, fire does AoE damage, and Greased Bolt deals HP damage and poisons (... past death, as it now seems - 1HKO and resurrection denial at the cost of two turns.  Yikes!)  The short-charge mage, in addition to having the reliability Short Charge confers, doesn't need to sacrifice all defense for the sake of MA, either, allowing for synchronisation with other healing/resistance strategies.

Holy and Dark skills are not as rare as you chalk them up to be.  17 units know Holy in S1 (or up to 17 of 46 teams - I'm too lazy to count how many teams have two units with Holy).  9 units know Koutetsu and 2 know Bio 3.  (Yeah, they're not a majority, but they're still more popular than any other element.  Wind comes third with 9 units knowing Tornado, Heaven's Cloud, and Silf taken together.  I'm too lazy to count magic guns, but even if I wasn't, I doubt I'd find that Fire, Ice, and Lightning surpass Holy and Dark by usage, either.) The nerf to Koutetsu is small.  Golden Hairpin will keep Holy and Dark elements popular.  Dia will see more use with white magic users, who are a dime a dozen, and I hope Demi will see more use with buffs.  As for the difficulty of applying oil, that applies to all elements; the other six elements are at the same disadvantage.  Following this line of thought, I wouldn't mind making oil easier to apply and heal.  The weakness modifier might have to be dropped from 2x to 1.5x in this case, though.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizAs for Black Costume prevalence - it's been like that even when Dark was a terrible Element.  The main issue has always been that Water (Rubber Costume) and Wind (Santa Costume) are just worse, and the Fire/Dark combo covers both a lot of AoE skills and that pointless Weak: Dark that's on [P] Bag still.  It also has synergy with Undead teams, which back then were also popular despite Dark being kinda shit and them still being Weak to Holy.  Black Costume did compete with Rubber Costume somewhat if only because Lightning was as good as both Fire and Dark combined, but now that Dark and Fire have gotten better, Rubber Costume's fallen to the wayside, especially with Wizard currently being shit.  Basically, Black Costume has always been amazing and basically the best of the "Absorbs two Elements" clothing even before Dark and Fire were even half as good as they are now, and it's going to take making the other Elements (Wind and Water mostly) not suck to fix that, not adding random exceptions to Oil that just stifle creativity.  The issue is finding space to actually make Wind and Water not suck, since they both contain very few moves, and most of them are smart-targeted meaning you can't build any kind of Absorb team with them...


This is all symptomatic of a bigger problem: not giving people enough reasons to shift away from Fire and Dark.  Wizards will improve with these new proposals (which is saying very little, really; simply giving them a fancy name like "Death Man" will be an improvement - doubly so because it would be ironic).  As for space for wind and water skills, it can be made by pruning redundant ones.  For example, do we really need four tiers of Black Magic spells?  Consolidating Black Magic to three tiers will make space for one new element; consolidating to two tiers will make space for three.  Water could surely use representation here.  Then that one skill set that didn't have a unique job can find one in water healing. Wind and Earth can use representation, too, although I think I think they're doing well enough already with representation in Lore.  Then there's Draw Out's Heaven's Cloud, which sees little use right now due to the superiority of the Koutetsu-Golden Hairpin combination.

Anyway, exempting Dark from oil is going to shift people away from Dark.  We seem to be of the same mind on this need for a shift.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizThe primary users of Salty Rage for Berserking are Stone Gunners, and Berserk Stone Gunners are currently overshadowed by the imbalanced Kagesougi Gunner who does the same damage without needing to be Berserked.


It was a gimmick then, too.  Stone gunners were still sacrificing adaptability to do a single thing.  There aren't many ways to build a berserk gunner: Attack UP, a movement ability of choice, a Stone Gun, and that's about it.  Maybe add a few skills on the side to make use of the surplus JP when the gunner fails his job by dying.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizThe main thing against this is that Absorbing Water won't help a Water Absorb team see use.  There are very few Water skills - Suiton, Leviathan, Water Ball, Grand Cross + Whale Whisker, and... are there even any others?


Not really, but we can add them with a little adventurous spirit.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizDemi 2 still sucks.  It's sucked for a long time, bro.  Nothing's come along to change that - in fact, I think over time it's only grown to suck more.  If Oil doubling Demi 2 makes it actually worth acknowledging, more power to Demi 2.


So let's change it.  If we want to add more power to Demi 2, let's make it useable in all cases, either by reducing the cast time, lowering the MP cost, increasing the accuracy (at the expense of lowering the damage from 66% to 50%, as The Damned suggested), or all three.  This way, we make another skill useable while avoiding the multi-target instant-death oil-Demi2 combination at the same time.  Again, this comes back to keeping on Holy and Dark skills that would be broken with oil.

Ninja edit, because The Damned posted while I idled on my own post for several hours:

Quote from: The DamnedInitial Berserk + Stone Gun: It's always...annoyed me that Berserk works with Guns (and Crossbows). It just doesn't make sense and, frankly, I'm not all that much more convinced that Initial Berserk needs to stay around just for one weapon.


They shoot the bullets harder when they're angry.  Either that or they curve them to hit more organs at once.  Haven't you seen that movie "Wanted"?  The protagonist shot guns better when he was angry.  Hard rock played in the background, too.  I don't know how he pulled that one off, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on May 17, 2012, 08:26:18 am
Yes, I am still alive.

I've skimmed through most of the posts and here is some shit.

@Damned: I was there discussing most of the proposed changes for the next version. There are still a few things I disagree with, of course. Summon Magic becoming evadable, for example. However, some of the additions/changes that are proposed and would like to see it in action, whether it will be good or not. I would like if auto-potion becomes 70 for a version or 2, just to see how it goes, but it's not likely going to happen I think.

@Bad names for new items/abilities: I'll make new names, or steal names from other games as usual. Or I can butcher another language like a professional game designer.... (looks at Ninjitsu)
Some proposed names:
Prepare(the Protect/Shell thingy) ---> Guardian Angel
Glitter Shield: Shield of Harmony(if it fits)
Sinkhole: Mind Lapse(or something to that effect)

And I guess it's time to start fixing up names for all the other items as well, to fit their effects. Butcher your favourite language or ruin your favourite tv/anime/movie/comic series today! I'm not fussed where the names are from, just minimise FFTA usage, we have enough of that in Arena. Any names for abilities which currently suck will also be replaced.

@19% shit: Will all become 20%. I don't care that vanilla has it at 19%, increasing the procs by 1% won't fuck up the balance.

@Water not existing: I'll replace Natural selection(piece of shit Lore never used) with a water one. Unless people really object to that?

Monsters coming soon.

Prepare for some map range revives or whatever broken shit I come up with in a few months time.


EDIT: As an alternative to the Geomancer buff, I suggested giving them 5 Move, making them unique in that aspect. It's not a great idea, but it's better to run it through a few people I think.

Also, I need to know now. Do you guys prefer big infrequent version changes or more frequent minor changes? The only reason I've stuck to larger changes is because less patch releases and hence less downloading for others.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on May 17, 2012, 09:13:22 am
Prepare -> Phalanx
Glitter Shield -> Divine Shield
Sinkhole -> Flux

Random thoughts:

-If one Bio spell is Dark Elemental, they should all be.

-Replace Fire 4/Ice 4/Bolt 4 with Water/Water 2/Water 3. Their gimmick can be low CT.

-As far as a Water Lore, that should be fine. Call it Maelstrom or something.

-Paladins are generally meant to draw attacks, right? Why not give them a skill that inflicts Don't Move around themselves so they can draw non-ranged attacks?

-Tonberrian can proc Shock.
-Broadsword can add 1 PA and 1 Move.
-Lionheart can add 2 PA.
-Ultima Weapon can proc Ultima.
-Gladius can proc Kamatachi.
-Nagrarok can be Add: Frog.
-Buster Sword can proc Braver.
-Oak Staff can add 1 MA and 1 Move.
-Yoichi Bow can be one-handed.
-Perseus Bow can be Add: Slow.
-Javelin II at 30% EVD.
-Cypress Rod can have high WP, but only 1 Range.
-Battle Bamboo can inflict Don't Act.
-Musk Pole can proc Bio.

-Since Black Magic is different now, maybe it's time for the Magic Guns to be totally booted. If that happens, I have a few replacement ideas:
1) A healing gun (because it's an amazing concept)
2) A Leg/Arm Aim procing Gun.
3) A gun with large Range.

The Poison inflicting Paladin skill FDC mentioned earlier can be called "Blightbane".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 17, 2012, 10:23:01 am
Big infrequent version changes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 17, 2012, 01:20:00 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on May 17, 2012, 01:46:29 amPOAST.


@Holy March / Warpath: I still don't see how these step on Faith UP or Brave UP at ALL.  You didn't do anything to actually refute anything I said or provide a counter-example, just suggested lowering the JP to compensate for the lower gain.  Those UPs belong to niche teams and those niche teams get far larger, faster Brave/Faith boosts from them, so again, not seeing where the issue lies.

@Choice: That's pretty much the idea, yeah.  There's only 20 classes, so it's really less about how often each class appears and more how different/similar its skillset is each time it does appear.

@Holy: So... you'd rather have a Short Charge Holy user and be locked into a Dancer/Archer than a Holy user that can outright just spit out that much damage and have 3 other units not be locked down due to your Holy user's build, and also be more susceptible to having your combos broken because you rely on multiple units and turns to kill things?  Can't say I agree there.  Those numbers are right but that's the result of a two-man combo - if two guys working together can't output 350~ damage for a DPS combo, it's probably not a good DPS combo considering you can get that kind of damage out of one unit with stacks.   As for Short Charge, you overrate it in Arena - it's definitely good, yes, but "amazing in general" is far from what I would call it here, this isn't 1.3 AI where SPD gets super high, Haste is a 50% SPD boost, and CTs are longer.  Going without Short Charge is far from a "risk."  I do think I've only used it once myself, and find it to be kinda "ehhh" unless you want it for a mostly dedicated healer, where it's more an insurance policy than anything.  OilHoly just lets your healer have DPS if you support them from somewhere else but leaves your strategy more easily disassembled due to having more moving parts and turn dumps.

As for your counts - again, that's the Holy skill, not the Holy element itself.  If you exempt the entire Element because it has one skill that isn't garbage or easily blocked, other things such as Dia, the Silver Bow, etc. suffer needlessly.  Same with Dark and Kotetsu.  Fire/Ice/Lightning see low use because it's a dumb idea to use them aside from Kagesougi Gunning (where Fire will see a huge upswing in representation) when you can run said Kagesougi Gunning + Venetian Shield to block all 3.  While Tournament usage results are relevant, it's important to not forget the other changes also being proposed and why some things aren't being used - in this case, the main source of Fire/Ice/Lightning aside from Magic Guns (Wizard) gets buffs (though Kagesougi aside I'd call the changes to Magic Guns a buff too) from several different directions and the Venetian Shield disappears, which will result in another upswing from those Elements, since none of them are bad or suffer from low representation themselves, and Holy becoming Evadable combined with Mantles, while not guaranteed, has a moderate likelihood of reducing the number of Holy users.  Kotetsu's nerf isn't large, true, but that's just the upswing/downswing of Dark - get a powerful skill with a huge AoE, but a lot of times half the other team just absorbs it, because again Black Costume.

And I should note here, that I do not thing all Elements should be equally valid or that Black Costume, Rubber Costume, or Santa Outfit should be equally valid as options.  Part of what makes the Risk/Reward of Element setups is that lack of parity - you can pick a "good" Element such as Dark or Fire, which are easier to make teams with but ultimately will be blocked and force you to go to "Plan B" more often, whereas a "mediocre" Element (Earth, Wind) still has enough options to be at least somewhat valid as an option, but are harder to actually make teams with - while this makes them "weaker", it gives them the advantage of being less common, meaning they won't often fight opponents who can cancel or absorb their key skills, unlike Kotetsu where it isn't uncommon to fight two units with Black Costumes or something.  That is the Risk/Reward and metagame calling that makes competitive gaming tick, and I see no real need to pull people too far from Dark or whatever.  I only want options to exist and exist with just enough validity to be feasible.  Hence, seeing no reason to pull people away from Dark arbitrarily - it does not fit with my modus operandi of making a competitive PVP game.  Parity is the opposite of what is needed.  Not to say things like Water don't need something (I did say I wanted them at least somewhat feasible), but I have no want nor see a need to even attempt to make all 8 elements have any form of equality.

(This ramble is why my Wizards have always used Ice 4 over Bolt 4 - Ice is less likely to be blocked, a bit faster, and much cheaper MP-wise, it did a bit less damage but had almost 0 chance of being blocked.  Sadly, that's all irrelevant now with Venetian Shield making basically the entire Wizard skillset kinda useless.)

@Wizard, you could go from X 2 Back / X 2 / X 3 / X 4 to X 2 Back / X 2 / X 3 and add Water to it, I suppose.  (Though doing this would require Fire 4 actually mimic Fire 2 and Fire 3 in range instead of being useless.) Going to 3 tiers also lets the Y values be a bit less compressed.  I'm not outright opposed, but it needs to be done correctly because Wizard already has a bit of a delicate balance going between its 3 spells.  Going lowest CT / highest MP cost or something would work, maybe, then just have it mirror Ice otherwise, which is similar (in the way Ice and Water "should" be, for those who care about that) but one is quick and costly, while the other is slower and cheaper.

@Stone Gunners: Yup.  They are.  They're niche units.  Like Cursed Ring units.  Other good Berserkers included dual Scorpion Tail Ninjas (which can nearly oneshot a Y U SO DERP Chemist if both shots hit - quite a feat of DPS!) and Bizen Boat / Masamune Samurai.  The point I was getting at was that they were actually good, at least to a respectable enough degree.

@Demi 2: I think you missed the point of what I said, Gaignun.  I was more lambasting the fact he was so worried about Demi 2 + Oil when Demi 2 kind of sucks... and I'll be honest, Oil + any respectable high-end attack of ANY Element should be a oneshot or at least a huge chunk of that unit's HP.  Another reason I see no reason to exempt Holy here - Short Charge Holy does the same as a Short Charge Bolt 4 with 12 MA and an Element boost.  When you consider that most units with respectable Element builds will be doing more damage than that with weaker skills... yeah, Oil is basically always a one-shot unless you're carrying 350 HP+ v Min-MA Spells.  So still, seeing nothing wrong with doubling Holy/Dark here.  They're not doing anything that anyone else isn't, and them being doubled isn't going to detract much from the value of the others being doubled - being able to oneshot someone with far weaker/cheaper skills than Holy while being able to spread Oil from your innate skillset (in Wizard's case) is going to close the quality gap a lot whether Holy can do it too or not - simply because Holy already can do it.  All allowing Holy to do it as well does is open up more potential team options, something that is never bad in a PVP game.

Quote from: FFMaster on May 17, 2012, 08:26:18 amPOAST


@Auto Potion: I'm still not sure why this even comes up.  (Well, I know, sup The Damned and your irrational hatred of Chemists, Monks, and Priests.  :v)  There really is no reason to touch it, especially with us again looking to push up the low-end damage of weaker weapons, skills etc.

@Monsters: I'll be dead honest.  I see no reason to include monsters in Arena.  They're a 100% pre-packaged unit that will never see variance, even moreso than how Gaignun called Berserkers "gimmicks."  They're the ultimate in linear gimmick units and literally anything they could add to the game could be added better via a class, item, skill, etc. being added instead.  Even with gimmick human items with Salty Rage or Cursed Ring, you still get control to add variance to your units on at least some level.  Monsters you get absolutely nothing, and you have to make what few skills (3-4) that they can do so ridiculously strong to compete they just ruin everything.  Yeah, they're "cool", but that doesn't change the fact they're overly linear wastes of space that could be better suited to adding more things for human units.

@Changes: Big and infrequent.

Quote from: Eternal248 on May 17, 2012, 09:13:22 am-Since Black Magic is different now, maybe it's time for the Magic Guns to be totally booted. If that happens, I have a few replacement ideas:
1) A healing gun (because it's an amazing concept)
2) A Leg/Arm Aim procing Gun.
3) A gun with large Range.


3) is the Romanda Gun.  A Healing Gun is about as amazing as the other Healing weapons - not that amazing.  The current Magic Guns actually let you make Element Absorb teams where they can double as both healing and damaging weapons, and if you read the most recent changes to fix Kagesougi Gunning, they only got better at that. 

Quote from: Eternal248 on May 17, 2012, 09:13:22 amThe Poison inflicting Paladin skill FDC mentioned earlier can be called "Blightbane".


You take your fucking War of the Lions gibberish and get your fucking ass out of here right fucking now before I fucking murder your fucking ass.  Fucker.  :V
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on May 17, 2012, 03:33:40 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 17, 2012, 01:20:00 pm
You take your fucking War of the Lions gibberish and get your fucking ass out of here right fucking now before I fucking murder your fucking ass.  Fucker.  :V


^^
I'll be taking that.

Anyway...

@Dia
The thing with Dia is that, it would be good if it were like unfury, but currently it's faith. And when you are build for DPS, you are building damage against melee units most of the time, since none of the mages can have armors without equip armor and tanky melee units tend to have 40 faith and 40 fury. So of course you are going to take unfaith skills instead of Dia.

@Monsters
Well at this point it would be pointless to add them, since we really don't have space for them in ARENA. I can still remember the suggestions somewhat, almost all of them for some reason tried to make them jack of all trades. None of them really would have worked expect for FFM's own demon monster that had black hole and white hole. And that I could have used in ARENA, but anyway not enough space, moving on.

@Holy and Raise 2
Both of them should cost just more mp, so there would not be as much spam of them.  Also reason why I would use Holy instead of Flare is that Holy simply has better DPS/CT ratio, nothing more.

@Carbungle
This skill is the best way to get MP back compared to anything else. I mean wow did you really have to make 2 AOE or have it only cost 5 mp? AI isn't stupid about mp, if it has this skill it will heal it's mp back instead of casting damage, so it can keep casting spell without having running out of mp. So question. Why 5mp? why not like 15 or more? AI would still used it well. It would not make much harder to AI. Also the 2 AOE, just what? Anything that is going to carry this spell is going to have 10 MA atleast so it's 60 to 120 mp to 1 to 4 people. This is a lot for a team that has Holy or Raise 2. I would be fine if it was AOE of like 1.

@Demi's
I would like them a lot more if they had bigger AOE and before you ask "Why Shade? I mean there is already Lich.", reason is simple, Lich doesn't fit in summoner skillset, everything else has/had 100% hits (even if magic evasion were to come to skills, it would still be heck of a lower chance to hit). So I would actually say that let the Lich be dark elemental summon for summon skillset and increase demi AOE to 3 and Demi 2 AOE to 2. This would power up time mage skillset that doesn't see much use currently after haste debuffs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 17, 2012, 04:57:37 pm
(Ultimately, I'm not opposed to letting Chronos Tear be a "mere" 100 JP.)

Ugh. This is going to take a lot of quoting, so I'll just put the redone Katana that I was thinking about last night first before summoning up another Demon Wall of text to ram into everyone's eye-sockets and Telega their time away:

I figure I might as well as post up the original alongside this just to help everyone see how much I probably screwed them up even worse:

These are the current Katana:

1. Asura Knife: WP: 9; W-EV: 15%; Element: Fire; Strengthen: Fire; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

2. Kotetsu Knife: WP: 12; W-EV: 15%; Element: Dark; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No.

3. Bizen Boat: WP: 9; W-EV: 15%; 100% Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

4. Murasame: WP: 11; W-EV: 15%; +1 MA, Restores HP; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

5. Heaven's Cloud: WP: 9; W-EV: 15%; Element: Wind; +1 PA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

6. Kiyomori: WP: 14; W-EV: 15%; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No.

7. Muramasa: WP: 12; W-EV: 15%; 100% Faith; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No.

8. Kikuichimoji: WP: 13; W-EV: 15%; Element: Earth; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No.

9. Masamune: WP: 10; W-EV: 15%; Initial: Haste; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

10. Chirijiraden: WP: 11; W-EV: 15%; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: Yes.


These are my proposals that are largely off the top of my head, which is part of the reason they are probably even worse given I didn't do the math and I'm not nearly as competent about ARENA, much less "DPS", as a lot of other people are. Still, I feel Katana needed some changes, so I'll put in bold what's changed and try to give reasoning.

By and large, though, as the conservation between Raven and I hinted at, the biggest change is making it so that most Katana can be used with Two Hands automatically. May have to drop their WP a bit more because of that, but I feel that it needs to be done if Ninja-Whatever mostly get to be used with Two Swords but half of current Katana don't get to be used with Two Hands; I did this even as much as still don't like Two Hands or Two Swords essentially doubling attack power, especially innately:


1. Asura: WP: 9; W-EV: 15%; Element: Fire; Strengthen: Dark; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

IIRC, it's been said from the very beginning that Asura shouldn't strengthen itself/its own element, and that I rather agreed with that sentiment; it's "just" Asura now since it's not a "Knife". Rods can get away with it because Wizards/mages are physically squishy, even if I was less than thrilled about Rods becoming MA and getting decent WP, but I digress. Due to Black Costume's popularity not going anywhere, it seems both fitting and "fair" to let this Strengthen: Dark instead.


2. Kotetsu: WP: 9; W-EV: 15%; Element: Dark; Strengthen: Fire; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

For much the same reason as the above, this becomes the Dark mirror of Asura, meaning its WP gets lowered in exchange for being able to be used with Two Hands, it strengthens Fire and "Knife" gets excised from its name.


3. Bizen Boat: WP: 9; W-EV: 15%; 100% Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

Yep, this is unchanged. I was originally going to up its WP to 10, but considering Muramasa took a hit and its one of only four non-elemental Katana that does damage and can be Two-Handed on top of the only one to have a 100% proc...yeah. No need for change even as commonly as Silence is blocked.


4. Murasame: WP: 12; W-EV: 15%; Restores HP, Block: Berserk; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. 

Upped its WP a bit more, partly due to the loss of +1 MA, but also just because I felt that it needed to do more in a single blow than what Murasame could potentially group heal (only) two people. I was tempted to up its WP beyond 12, but I'm somewhat cautious of opening up Kagesougi to more shenanigans if it's already getting buffed. Block: Berserk is both because the new changes seem to pushing for more things to have it and because Murasame doesn't benefit from Berserk at all unlike most weapons. It getting Block: Berserk would "replace" Defense Ring potentially losing it for Block: Silence as well as not taking up anymore of the (probably nonexistent) Item Attribute space that may remain since it can share with Dracula Mantle. Similarly, unlike Healing Staff, which is also seeing a boost, Katana users are not nearly as commonly going to block Berserk as Stave/Staff users are.


5. Heaven's Cloud: WP: 9; W-EV: 15%; Element: Wind; 50% Slow; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

Rather unfortunately agree with Raven that this may be needed since Wind element is of dubious strength as it is even if it's not as bad as Water. That's the only change too since like the other elemental Katana it can be strengthened.


6. Kiyomori: WP: 11; W-EV: 15%; +1 MA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

The Katana that was previously "just there" the most is...still just there the most. I figured that it needed to be Two-Handed, that its WP should thus drop and that it should probably end up the strongest of the Two-Handed non-elemental Katana due to what Masamune has. However, beyond that...well, I figured that at least one Katana should strength all Draw Outs and I didn't want to go with +2 MA since that seemed a bit much in addition to its attack power between its WP and Two-Handed aspects.


7. Muramasa: WP: 10; W-EV: 15%; 33% Faith; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

Usual story of dropping WP to let it have Two Hands. It was originally going to be equal to Bizen Boat in WP, but given that I also figured that the Faith proc needed to be dropped--there's no way it should be anything more than 50% at most--and how Bizen Boat has a 100% chance to inflict Silence, it seemed like it need at least a bit more.


8. Kikuichimoji: WP: 10; W-EV: 15%; Element: Earth; 33% Quake; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

Much like the above beyond the usual WP-lowering to give it Two Hands, this is a bit above the elemental Katana because Earth is arguably the second worst element after Water; being the only element that can avoided by a Movement and a status doesn't exactly help one's chances of being used, even if I don't think anything should happen to either Float. For the same reason, it's also more straightforward, especially when Earth Clothes exists to both Strengthen and Absorb it all at once. Quake allows Samurai's MA to see some use besides Draw Out, but shouldn't be too doing too much damage, especially given Samurai's tendency to not use Faith that much, and is still subject to M-EV; not exactly like there was much else for me to choose from on that front, especially when Geomancy's only Earth-element ability is now the one that Petrifies. It also will allow me to yell "QUAKE! WITH! FEAR!" every time it triggers ala Ronin Warriors.


9. Masamune: WP: 8; W-EV: 15%; Initial: Haste; 50% Dispel Magic; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.

As much as I would just have liked to say "this should proc Comet" semi-jokingly again as I did for philsov's ASM'd before he scrapped it, I'd rather not let "proc" something that's guaranteed to do 100 damage and that isn't avoidable. The reason for the WP being so low is that, on top of the initial Haste, I suppose I viewed as more of a "sweeper" set-up by getting rid of any buffs the unit had rather than aiming to cave the unit's face in off the bat; it's only 50% because Gold Staff and Chaos Blade don't seem much use as it is and this needs to not trump units with Yin-Yang Magic(k) using Dispel Magic either. However, given how low its WP is (even if 8 when used with Two-Hands shouldn't be too terrible), Comet might be appropriate after all. Of course, if want to make this something else that doesn't bother calling up anything, then we could give it +1 Sp and give Sprint Shoes initial Haste to combine them.... [/semi-joking]


10. Chirijiraden: WP: 14; W-EV: 15%; Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No.

The last of the Katana can no longer be used with Two Swords and still can't be used with Two Hands. Instead it gets a WP boost unlike most of the other Katana and gets to shared Item Attribute space with Giant Axe without overshadowing it (I would like to think). It may be better to just allow this +1 MA or even +2 MA, but that seems kinda "messy" (at least in the +2 MA instance) partly because, like all Katana, this can still be used with Equip Shield rather easily and it wouldn't suffer for it unlike the other Katana. I would also rather try to push for just Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji (the abilities) seeing more usage than push all of Draw Out into seeing more usage when the only one that doesn't see all that much usage is Muramasa (the ability) and even that sees a decent amount.



Ugh. Actually, due to how much my computer (or rather Firefox) still seems to be acting up and how long it took me to type that, I'll reply to everything else in my next reply.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 02:31:24 pm
The Damned is actually going somewhere with the Katana, so I'll take those off his hands.


Asura Knife - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Fire Element, Strengthen: Fire.
Kotetsu Knife - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Dark Element, Strengthen: Dark.
Bizen Boat - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Silence on Hit.
Murasame - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Immune: Berserk, Heals HP on Hit.
Heaven's Cloud - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Wind Element, 50% Add: Slow on Hit.
Kiyomori - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Muramasa - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Faith on Hit.
Kikuichimoji - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Earth Element, 33% Cast: Quake on Hit.
Masamune - 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Initial: Haste, 50% Cast: Dispel Magic on Hit.
Chirijiraden - 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water.

Differences - Asura and Kotetsu are self-strengthening since their main role is to boost their related Draw Outs, and they gain a WP each.  Kotetsu has the power of old Asura and Asura is a bit more powerful at 10 WP, offsetting the fact that the Kotetsu Draw Out is stronger than the Asura one.  They're Elemental almost as an afterthought of the sake of Element Absorb teams who might want their Samurai PA-flavored, so Self-Boost isn't an issue.  Muramasa maintains 100% Faith because that has still never been an issue ever and is interesting and different, though the WP is lowered to 9 to mirror Bizen Boat due to this.  Kiyomori is +2 MA instead of +1 MA because a Strengthen: Element on even a male Samurai with +3 MA from other gear (not unreasonable if it's meant to be a male with decent MA) will gain an additional 3 MA from Element Strengthen, beating out the Kiyomori anyway, but at the expense of only some Draw Outs being boosted.  This makes Kiyomori great for otherwise low-MA setups to get an MA booster, though I lowered its WP to 10 so that it is equal to or weaker than all the Element-Boosting Katana in terms of Attack DPS to offset this.  I went with The Damned's idea for Masamune since it gives Masamune even more of a unique niche and many Katana can perform DPS now, though I modified Chirijiraden to work with Two Hands.  The reason being, no one is going to bother with an Equip Shield Samurai - it defeats the entire purpose of even having your Samurai, so the weapon will see no use.  It still keeps a respectable-for-Katana 11 WP and the Giant Axe effect, though, making it a great option for boosting Kikuichimoji and Heaven's Cloud.  The other relevant change here is that these Katana are also all compatible with Two Swords as well - there's no reason for them not to be, and this opens up the option of the Equip Heavy Blade Ninja to being a "thing", among other things, and the more noise for viable setups that can be thrown at the wall, the better.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 20, 2012, 02:38:47 pm
I like those proposed Katana changes.

Also, something mentioned on chat, but Speed Save could probably see a buff. Aero suggested +25 CT, others said +30. I was thinking +40, but that might be a bit much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 02:43:00 pm
It really shouldn't be higher than a +25 boost.  +30 is pushing it but probably acceptable.  +40 would be insane, lol.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 20, 2012, 03:29:44 pm
I think +30 would be fine. Hardly anyone uses Speed Save right now, and I don't think it'll see a lot of use at +25, either.

Balance JP down to 250?

The swords could use revamping/buffs. They are also very underused. At the very least +1 WP on the non-Platinum Swords, but I think they should also be all (or at least most) 2H/2S-able. Granted, doing that would mean a revamp. I'll try to toss out some ideas... (note: numbers will likely need to be tweaked. Again, these are just ideas, and I'm bad at stuff at like this)

Blood Sword 11 WP, no 2H/2S, absorbs HP
Ancient Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Petrify proc (actually, maybe 25% Don't Act proc would be better here? cause with 2S that's ~40% chance of Petrify)
Sleep Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Sleep proc
Rune Blade 10 WP, yes 2H/2S, +2 MA
Platinum Sword 12 WP, yes 2H/2S
Diamond Sword 8 WP, yes 2H/2S, 50% Extra Attack
Coral Sword 8 WP, Water Element, yes 2H/2S, 50% Poison proc or 25% Suiton proc (actually, Suiton proc would make more sense on the flails. Except I think it's a bad idea either way since that could lead to a looooooot of damage. Thoughts?)
Ice Brand 10 WP, Ice Element, yes 2H/2S, 25% Ice 3 proc
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 04:42:46 pm
Herp Swords Derp.


Tri-Edge - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Fire, Ice, Lightning Element, 33% Separately Add: Oil, Slow, Don't Move on Hit.
Tactician Blade - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 Jump.
Parry Edge - 9 WP, 25% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Moonlight - 9 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33/50% Cast: Blade Beam on Hit.
Blood Sword - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Absorb HP on Hit.
Coral Sword - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Water, 33% Cast: Water Ball on Hit.
Ancient Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Petrify on Hit.
Sleep Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Sleep on Hit.
Platinum Sword - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Shieldrender - 8 WP, 5% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 50% Cast Shield Break on Hit.
Ice Brand - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 20% Cast Ice 3 on Hit.
Rune Blade - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Lionheart - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, PA +2.
Ultima Weapon - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33% Ultima.

The idea here is to keep Swords as a grab-bag of random shit, stealing and morphing a few of the ideas I liked from both CT5Holy and Eternal and adding a bunch of my own to fill all the unused Sword slots in Arena.  I've kept a mix - some blades with high WP and No Two Swords or Two Hands, many weapons with both Two Swords and Two Hands to promote Two Swords, and still others with No Two Swords but Yes Two Hands to promote Two Hands use.  I'll do specific reasonings on-request for these since a lot is here and I have shit to be doing, so :v.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 20, 2012, 07:04:45 pm
(Ugh. I made a Delita-mistake with "seem" in the last post. Whatever.)

Well, I'm suddenly semi-glad that I waited (read: fell back asleep when someone didn't get back to calling me) to post this huge thing. Now I can answer (life, the universe and) everything all at once rather than needing to have posted again a mere two hours afterwards.

With regards to the latest two developments, I'll get those out of the way first:

1. Katana 3.1: Ah thanks for your input Raven. Outside of Muramasa being 100% Faith still, which is literally not a change, and being slightly wary of the self-boost & MA +2, which I all understand, I rather like those, my initial input aside; it does make me feel less stupid about it though. That said, even Muramasa can still be dropped later if need be; it probably shouldn't go below 50%, though. As such, I also agree with the changes; I just would like to think it isn't making innate Two Swords more potentially obnoxious. Regardless, Lord Anubis will be pleased. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arZh117iVQs)

2. Speed Save: Yeah, as much as I loathe to admit it, it needed a boost even before Tsumazuku's proposed change. It needs to at least boost by +25, though +30 is kinda pushing it, especially with Lore around. I'm going to think about this more, but for now I'd rather err on the side of caution as I usually do and just say that +25 CT be enough, especially since Tsumazuku isn't going to be universally used even if actually sees use now.


Now onward to the other posts:

Quote from: Gaignun on May 17, 2012, 01:46:29 amThey shoot the bullets harder when they're angry.  Either that or they curve them to hit more organs at once.  Haven't you seen that movie "Wanted"?  The protagonist shot guns better when he was angry.  Hard rock played in the background, too.  I don't know how he pulled that one off, though.


Sorry. As much as I like James McAvoy at times, I like good movies better.

Quote from: FFMaster on May 17, 2012, 08:26:18 am
Yes, I am still alive.

I've skimmed through most of the posts and here is some shit.

@Damned: I was there discussing most of the proposed changes for the next version. There are still a few things I disagree with, of course. Summon Magic becoming evadable, for example. However, some of the additions/changes that are proposed and would like to see it in action, whether it will be good or not. I would like if auto-potion becomes 70 for a version or 2, just to see how it goes, but it's not likely going to happen I think.

*snip*


Yes, I figured you were still alive. Doesn't mean you aren't legitimately busy, though, especially since I have no idea what the hell Australia's "schedule" in general, much less this time of year and much less your schedule.


1. Auto-Potion going to 70: I personally wouldn't mind it myself, but I at least concur with Raven that it's a really minor issue. It should probably wait until next version, if only because the sheer amount of changes being proposed for this version are the most yet I think.


2. "Bad" Names: Meh, names are fine by and large and the poorer ones can always be worked on.


3. 19% = 20%: More than fine with that, especially since it makes things less confusing for newer people.


4. Water's Nonexistence: I don't think anyone will object to that, especially since I don't think Natural Selection has been used more than literally half a dozen times since ARENA started more than a year ago; it's certainly better choice than screwing over Earth Dragon as I had proposed long ago. The name "Maelstrom" as Eternal suggested is fine, though that's normally only related to Behemoths and does something entirely different. As you brought up potentially trying to implement monsters, I still suggest "Big Wave", as underwhelming as it might be, or even "Tidal Wave" since all of the summons are named after themselves (and it's not like most people currently use Leviathan); other Water-element names can be found here (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Water_%28Element%29), though of course feel free to make up names rather than feeling like you're bound to history.


5. Geomancers Getting Move 5: Doesn't seem necessary and it would step on Mime's toes a bit. Also seems like it make them get themselves killed more easily and I always figured that Geomancers should be distance units since they get what's essentially free, if conditional, magic(k). Not sure how other people feel about this though, since no one else commented (in this thread at least).


6. Patch Style Change: Large, infrequent patches are best. You have a life, things need to be allowed to work themselves out and I don't think anyone wants you to become one of the many game companies that rapidly patches things (and makes them worse just because people visibly bitch) before that can happen.


Quote from: Eternal248 on May 17, 2012, 09:13:22 am
Prepare -> Phalanx
Glitter Shield -> Divine Shield
Sinkhole -> Flux

*cut*


I still think "Iron Will" should just be used for Prepare and one of the unused Shield names should be used for Glitter Shield, but these are fine too I suppose. I like "Flux", but I'm not why it's necessary; that said, now that I think about it, I've yet to see Sinkhole's animation, so maybe it is better. (Or it just fits better with Time Magic[k], especially since Sinkhole tends to be Terrain/Geomancy-related.)


Now for my random thoughts with regards to your random thoughts:

1. Bio's Elemental Properties: I concur that they all be Elemental if one of them is, hence why Geomancy still bugs the hell out of me, but that's a different issue. However, they need not be the same element, which is why I was pushing for at least one of them to potentially become Water or even Earth just because they're some of the less represented elements. That said, with Raven's point about elemental parity (which I was never pushing for...in ARENA at least) and the fact that Natural Selection is becoming Water now and your own Tier 4 suggestion, I think that all Bio spells should just become non-elemental for now.

We need at least a few non-elemental, faith-based spells that are a) quick and b) don't do fixed damage or are based on other conditions. At least a couple of people have used Bio 1 to great effect because of its non-elemental nature and I'd hate for yet something else to be absorbed/blocked by the ever-popular Black Costume.

That said, I've never really liked Bio 2 adding Frog. Can "we" just give that Oil or give it Poison and give Bio 1 Oil? Even if Frog will wear off now, multi-target changes to add Frog just seem like trouble, especially when they're not subject to terrain's whimsy. It's not a huge deal, but I figure I might as well admit that while talking about it.


2. Water Becoming Part of Black Magic at Tier 4's Expense: I can agree with this, as can other people apparently. However, I think the other gimmick should follow the flow of your Water element in Parted Ways and thus that these spells should be exempt to Reflect. Given that Tier 4 dying means that everything else that Wizard becomes subject to Reflect (unless the Back spells suddenly aren't), then it seems like Wizard would still need abilities that get past Reflect and it's not like these spells have to be horribly damaging or anything. So....


3. Paladins Purposely Immobilizing Themselves: I vaguely recall someone telling me that the AI won't use a negative statuses on itself even if they're packaged with other benefits. However, I can't remember who that was and I've yet to test it myself. That said, it could potentially be interesting, though knowing the AI, it would probably just lead to trouble....


4. Weapon Suggestions: Most sound decent enough. However, where is the room for Tonberrian, Lionheart, Ultima Weapon and Gladius coming from?


5. Possible New Guns: I'd rather not kill off Magic Guns entirely before we get to test them with their new fixes. Besides what Raven pointed out about the Option C gun being Romanda Gun, Option A Gun (Opera Gun?) would obviate the already barely used Healing Staff & Murasame as much as I also like the idea and Option B Gun is just bad news. You remember what a pain in the ass Spell Edge was when it was still like its vanilla self, right? You really want to give the potential to cause Disable/Don't Act to an otherwise unavoidable weapon? Immobilize/Don't Move won't be much better due to the sheer range on the thing, even if it were "only" 4, since then it would completely screw over Hunting (cross)Bow.


6. Blightbane: ...I kinda agree with Raven's eloquent rebuttal here. That said, it's at least a start name-wise, so thanks.


Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 17, 2012, 01:20:00 pm*prune*

@Auto Potion: I'm still not sure why this even comes up.  (Well, I know, sup The Damned and your irrational hatred of Chemists, Monks, and Priests.  :v)  There really is no reason to touch it, especially with us again looking to push up the low-end damage of weaker weapons, skills etc.

@Monsters: I'll be dead honest.  I see no reason to include monsters in Arena.  They're a 100% pre-packaged unit that will never see variance, even moreso than how Gaignun called Berserkers "gimmicks."  They're the ultimate in linear gimmick units and literally anything they could add to the game could be added better via a class, item, skill, etc. being added instead.  Even with gimmick human items with Salty Rage or Cursed Ring, you still get control to add variance to your units on at least some level.  Monsters you get absolutely nothing, and you have to make what few skills (3-4) that they can do so ridiculously strong to compete they just ruin everything.  Yeah, they're "cool", but that doesn't change the fact they're overly linear wastes of space that could be better suited to adding more things for human units.

*prune*


Hmmm...oddly I thought I had more to say about your post, but it's only two rather minor things; I'm not sure how I feel about the Holy March & Warpath thing, though I'd totally be done for dropping the JP if they became only +2.

Oh well. It at least spares your eyes a bit:


1. My Irrational Hatred: A slight correction, dear sir. It is Raise 2 I loathe, not Priests themselves, religiosity of the name aside.


2. Monsters Being Gimmicks: While you have a point about that and while monsters aren't exactly a priority, I have to disagree quite a bit with your other issues:

  a. There's more than enough space unused to in ARENA to give them more than a mere 3-4 skills. "We" would just have to make sure that human classes all require 1 Level of Squire rather than 0. Thought I suppose it wouldn't to be to try screw around with giving monsters' (human) Secondaries given the validity of your linearity comment.

  b. Given the amount of people that have wanted monsters (and Mimes) to get around their inability to use equipment. Most of the people that have expressed this are either working on other aspects of their own patches or just other miscellaneous things in general, so it's possible that having only to take care of aspect of it for an otherwise functioning, basically communal (at this point) patch might "encourage" them.

  c. Similarly, people have been trying to get the AI to learn to mount monsters (read: Chocobos), so it serves the same point there as a sort of testing ground.

  d. In a far less important but still semi-valid point, some monsters can also be used as stepping stones, which is something humans can't be used for at all. Not much, but still something, especially on some of the more cluttered/clustered maps.

  e. It would give something for Monster Talk to rather than be mockingly there, gathering dust. Similarly, it would make primary Mediators more valuable rather than just having Talk Skill be used more as a secondary only.

  f. Similarly would give Steal Heart a bit of boost, though it's arguable whether that's a good thing or not.


Admittedly, some people just want to use monsters and while that's not exactly a good enough reason, we also shouldn't outright dismiss them as you seem to be doing.

That said, I also wouldn't mind perhaps focusing on adding more human classes before that. First, however, we need to make sure that ones we have now are equally usable rather than somewhat conspicuously lopsided, if not as egregious as vanilla or 1.3.

Hell, I'd probably be the first person behind adding a usable Blue Mage class if people really wanted to "use" monsters.

Quote from: Shade on May 17, 2012, 03:33:40 pm@Dia
The thing with Dia is that, it would be good if it were like unfury, but currently it's faith. And when you are build for DPS, you are building damage against melee units most of the time, since none of the mages can have armors without equip armor and tanky melee units tend to have 40 faith and 40 fury. So of course you are going to take unfaith skills instead of Dia.

*castrate*


I can't recall if I've ever directly replied to Shade before, at least via quote. First time for almost everything I suppose:


1. Dia: Dia is already good. In fact, I'd argue it's too good for how little it costs, even if it's not outright broken and it's on the "wrong" set, though that's probably what keeps its overpowered aspect from being as apparent. That said, despite disagreeing with you most of your reasoning, I concur that it would perhaps be better as going off of Unfury. Not that Priests need to become better at attacking, though.


2. Monsters and Space: Not exactly sure what monster drafts you're remembering/mentioning, but as I did with Raven, I'm calling bullshit on the space thing. Considering we "only" have 20 classes at now, one of which, Mime, doesn't even have skills at all, we have tons of space left. Even counting the like half-a-dozen skills that are weapon procs only, ARENA has left over space from all Special characters & units, all Lucavi and all monsters. That easily has to be 150+ spaces, which means that "at worst" we could "only" give 16 monsters 9 skills if we really, really wanted to.

Yeah, we're totally strapped for space right now.


3. Holy & Raise 2 needing To take more MP: Agreed.


4. Carbunkle needing to take more MP: Kinda agreed, if only because I haven't seen it used more than twice. Admittedly, I'm terribly behind on matches. So perhaps 5 MP does seem a bit cheap. Then again, it does have to compete with Angel Song, which costs 5 MP as well and hits the entire map.


5. Demi spells getting buffed Giving Demi 1 AoE 3? Hell no. Same with giving Demi 2, even if it were lowered to 50%, AoE 2. Time Magic might not be used much for damage, but it's not supposed to be; even then, though, it's already being used half of the time for damage since after Haste it sees use, "if only" because of Slow (2), Comet and Sinkhole. Guess what. Two of those do damage, even if one of them is conditional and the other is fixed; Balance is also somewhat used, but it's infrequent since it's inaccurate (which it should be) and depends on higher HP units, which tend to have lower MA & MP and vice versa.

Both Demis see seldom use more a) Dark is absorbed so often as to often not be worth it unless you're absorbing it yourself and b) Demi 2 is rather inaccurate at present due to its sheer power. Still, they're used more than Lich because they can be absorbed and Dark-absorption really doesn't need a boost. Besides, Immobilize/Don't Move is getting strengthened definitely at least and while Stop is getting a bit of an indirect nerf due to Geomancy, it's still dangerous.

So Time Magic still has more things than "just" Haste (2), especially when (more than) half of one's skill set being used semi-regularly is more than a few other classes can claim at present.


I'll leave the sword talk for later since my computer decided to be utterly slow.

That said, I don't agree with CT5Holy's versions being mostly compatible with Two Swords. We hardly need Ninja to become the best all melee weapons that use PA sans Axes and Knightswords; same with Two Hands and Samurai, though in that case it would be Knives rather than Axes that would be exempt alongside Knightswords.

As for Raven's, at this point the ones that stand out as the most objectionable are Two Hands-compatible Blood Sword and Lionheart's PA +2 and superior WP when it can also be used with Two Hands.

Still, I'll talk about those in a separate post.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on May 20, 2012, 07:15:03 pm
@Paladins: It wouldn't affect themselves.

@Demi: I think it'd be interesting if Demi had a chance to proc Slow or Immobilize. </two_cents>
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: TrueLight on May 20, 2012, 07:31:08 pm
Probability a bad idea, but it seems that Wizards need something...that can't be reflected. How about bringing back Meteor? Most of the Wizard skillset (with the exception of Flare) can be reduced with Venetian Shield/White Robe. Giving them this skill would allow some more diversity and an overall, better unit. Also, the AOE and damage would be somewhat moderate in order to maintain some balance. This skill would be a quick spell that does decent damage and a great anti-sandbag tool, while at the same time, ignoring any element absorption.

As for a water skill, how about something like Tidal Wave. This spell would be rather quick and deal damaage around a level 2 spell. We could replace something like Poison since not many people seem fond of it, but that's just me.  Perhaps more people will be using some water absorption teams. For animation, we could use the Leviathan spell animation without the Leviathan. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 07:45:09 pm
Quote from: The Damned on May 20, 2012, 07:04:45 pmThat said, I don't agree with CT5Holy's versions being mostly compatible with Two Swords. We hardly need Ninja to become the best all melee weapons that use PA sans Axes and Knightswords; same with Two Hands and Samurai, though in that case it would be Knives rather than Axes that would be exempt alongside Knightswords.

As for Raven's, at this point the ones that stand out as the most objectionable are Two Hands-compatible Blood Sword and Lionheart's PA +2 and superior WP when it can also be used with Two Hands.


Reply to other shit later, busy right now, but;

Any Sword-bearing class (Squire, Geomancer especially with its proposed stat edits, etc.) will do more damage with Two Swords than a Ninja will using Equip Light Blade and the same Swords because Ninja has inferior PA.  An Equip Light Blade Ninja won't be used for its DPS alone.  A Ninjato-bearing Ninja (or a Climhazzard + offhand weapon bearing) Ninja with Attack UP also does more DPS with Attack UP than a Sword-bearing Ninja with Equip Light Blade does.  All this does is make Equip X skills on Ninjas somewhat appealing, resulting in a larger number of potential Ninja setups and adding more options to the game.  Mine focused more on having some that worked with Two Hands both for promoting the Two Hands skill and for promoting Equip Light Blade Samurai, on top of the Katana edits promoting basic melee Samurai.  (In fact, the Tactician Blade I whipped up is actually meant to primarily allow Geomancers to hit 5 Move and 5 Jump, coinciding with FFMaster's idea for buffing Geomancer.  So you get the buffed bases and the option for more Move range, in the same way that many Spears have SPD boosts to both promote Equip Spear and allow you a large range of options with your Lancers.)

Blood Sword - Note 0 W-EV.  You want to Two Hands it, you get some OK damage, but you get no evasion unless you give up power to run a Mantle, meaning it's a very all-in strategy.

Lionheart - It could probably go to 11 WP, but the main idea is to be stronger than a Two Swords Platinum Sword to again promote the Two Hands option over the Two Swords one, and to make another valid one-hand + Shield option alongside Ice Brand and Tactician Blade.


@TrueLight, I recommend following the conversation a bit more, Venetian Shield is going to hell, Wizard is getting some Water spells that will either be non-Reflectable or have Short CT in trade for a high MP cost along with an extra point of base MA.  Meteor's not really needed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am
(Ugh. I missed a colon and some other stuff after all that proof-reading? Arrgh.... Let's see if I can avoid fucking up for once this time.)

Before I forget again, I should ask something: Are "we" going to let all Black Magic spells be subject to M-EV with Tier 4 spells probably dying and becoming (un-Reflectable) Water? Or are we just going to let Tier 3 spells ignore M-EV while being still subject to Reflect now that they're the "strongest"?

(Let it be known I support the latter.)

Now, as to let all quotes aspects of this post be about Swords, I'll just answer Eternal here:

1. Immobilizing Paladins: Oh. I can completely get behind that, then. I'd honestly rather that than "Blightbane", actually, but I'm fine with giving the Poison technique a chance and Time Mage's Don't Move is most likely getting a boost anyway.


2. Demi having the chance to Slow or Immobilize: It would make sense, though giving it the chance to Slow might make the AI over-prioritize it and giving it the chance to add Immobilize would somewhat step on Don't Move's toes. That said, given Don't Move's AoE would now trump both Demi spells', maybe Immobilize would be doable; after all, it's priority isn't nearly as high for the AI as Slow. Then again, the same lackluster priority might just mean that AI never uses Don't Move if Demi ends up having a chance to cause Immobilize; I'm not sure.


And now for Swords. I'll do CT5Holy's first because they are both fewer in number and more problematic to me.

...Actually, I'll answer Raven's last post first since I need to clarify what I meant about not wanting almost everything PA & melee-based to be compatible with (innate) Two Swords:

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 07:45:09 pm
Reply to other shit later, busy right now, but;

Any Sword-bearing class (Squire, Geomancer especially with its proposed stat edits, etc.) will do more damage with Two Swords than a Ninja will using Equip Light Blade and the same Swords because Ninja has inferior PA.  An Equip Light Blade Ninja won't be used for its DPS alone.  A Ninjato-bearing Ninja (or a Climhazzard + offhand weapon bearing) Ninja with Attack UP also does more DPS with Attack UP than a Sword-bearing Ninja with Equip Light Blade does.  All this does is make Equip X skills on Ninjas somewhat appealing, resulting in a larger number of potential Ninja setups and adding more options to the game.  Mine focused more on having some that worked with Two Hands both for promoting the Two Hands skill and for promoting Equip Light Blade Samurai, on top of the Katana edits promoting basic melee Samurai.  (In fact, the Tactician Blade I whipped up is actually meant to primarily allow Geomancers to hit 5 Move and 5 Jump, coinciding with FFMaster's idea for buffing Geomancer.  So you get the buffed bases and the option for more Move range, in the same way that many Spears have SPD boosts to both promote Equip Spear and allow you a large range of options with your Lancers.)

Blood Sword - Note 0 W-EV.  You want to Two Hands it, you get some OK damage, but you get no evasion unless you give up power to run a Mantle, meaning it's a very all-in strategy.

Lionheart - It could probably go to 11 WP, but the main idea is to be stronger than a Two Swords Platinum Sword to again promote the Two Hands option over the Two Swords one, and to make another valid one-hand + Shield option alongside Ice Brand and Tactician Blade.


I should probably try to do a post just for TL;DR changes since more people keep falling behind and I'm the least busy of everyone. I'll do it later, though, if I decide it's even necessary at all; it might not be since FFMaster has kept up despite being busy and he's the most important.

However, let me digress from my possible elitism to actually reply to you:

1. Ninja's Not Being the Physically Strongest: I wasn't talking about Ninja flipping out and killing everyone through sheer power. I was talking about Ninja being the best because they have surety of hitting due to Hidden Knife. Yes, I shall concede that Ninja need to use Equip Light Blade to even equip Swords, but they still get Concentrate in addition to having innate Two Swords while the classes that you use as examples have to spring for Two Swords without getting Concentrate. As little PA as Ninja need have due to innate Two Swords, quite a few weapons don't really depend on power as much due to what they cause, so as long as they hit, which is what Hidden Knife allows. While I will no longer "rally" for that to lose more than its +1 Sp (for now), I'm still taking it into account as far as potential problems go given how commonly it is used.

That said, yes, I would agree Swords are better off as hodgepodge, which is part of the reason I disagree with CT5Holy's designs, but more on that in a bit.


2. Blood Sword: For now I'll just say that yes, I noticed the 0 W-EV%. I still have problems with it. I'll get into that below.


3. Lionheart: I was less worried about the WP and more the fact of the PA boost in relation to Two Hands. I'll get to that below as well.


However, first we'll do CT5Holy's stuff:


Quote from: CT5Holy on May 20, 2012, 03:29:44 pm
The swords could use revamping/buffs. They are also very underused. At the very least +1 WP on the non-Platinum Swords, but I think they should also be all (or at least most) 2H/2S-able. Granted, doing that would mean a revamp. I'll try to toss out some ideas... (note: numbers will likely need to be tweaked. Again, these are just ideas, and I'm bad at stuff at like this)

Blood Sword 11 WP, no 2H/2S, absorbs HP
Ancient Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Petrify proc (actually, maybe 25% Don't Act proc would be better here? cause with 2S that's ~40% chance of Petrify)
Sleep Sword 9 WP, yes 2H/2S, 25% Sleep proc
Rune Blade 10 WP, yes 2H/2S, +2 MA
Platinum Sword 12 WP, yes 2H/2S
Diamond Sword 8 WP, yes 2H/2S, 50% Extra Attack
Coral Sword 8 WP, Water Element, yes 2H/2S, 50% Poison proc or 25% Suiton proc (actually, Suiton proc would make more sense on the flails. Except I think it's a bad idea either way since that could lead to a looooooot of damage. Thoughts?)
Ice Brand 10 WP, Ice Element, yes 2H/2S, 25% Ice 3 proc



Yeah, most Swords could probably stand +1 WP even though, as mediocre as they tend to be, they're so ubiquitous that they still see use unlike other, weaker categories of weapons have yet to be touched (much).

Still, I'll reply to the ideas here since I might as well explain why I don't want Two Hands and Two Swords on most Swords:


1. Blood Sword: Seems reasonable even though Blood Sword is already the most usable Sword outside of maybe Rune Blade.


2. Ancient Sword: While perhaps that might be true, a bigger problem is that Ancient Sword probably shouldn't be causing Petrify at all. Two Swords certainly doesn't help, even if having dual Swords is debatable versus just having Hidden Knife and an Ancient Sword in the off-hand so as to not potentially waste damage just in case the victim gets cured of Petrify. Regardless, I'd be "willing" to accept it as a Two Hands sword, but the Petrify aspect probably needs to die.

I also don't want Don't Act coming back on any weapon, especially since Swords are more widespread than Ninja Swords; Spell Edge already proved how fucking obnoxious that could be on a weapon with much more limited distribution and squishier units. This goes double if Concentrate is coming back.


3. Sleep Sword: Not really much to say here since the only difference is +1 WP, so I'll just say how I've long found it amusing how Sleep Sword is probably the worst weapon to use with Two Swords, at least two of them, and yet it's one of the few swords that can be so used. Two Hands seems quite superior for this weapon, yet ironically due to the sheer power it already potentially has/sets it up should Sleep go off, that too seems like overkill; at least Two Hands Sleep Sword is probably worth it though.


4. Rune Blade: Similarly, Two Hands would be good for this sword. However, Two Swords seems problematic on this for differing reasons than Sleep Sword: +4 MA seems really good--perhaps too good--on non-squishier units, even if it's already possible with Wizard Rod and Wizard Staff. However, I'm not "exactly" for those either and, again, almost no mage is going to use Two Swords over something like Magic Attack UP or Short Charge or even Half of MP.  If this was able to be used with Two Swords, then it seems almost necessary for it to only add +1 MA, which makes it worse over all, especially with the plans for the new Kiyomori.


5. Platinum Sword: Meh. I literally have nothing else to say about this.


6. Diamond Sword: Way too similar to Dual Cutters, which already don't see use. We don't need something potentially upstaging them again, especially since they're only getting slightly improved, even if they aren't exactly the same.


7. Coral Sword: 33% Poison would probably be best, especially if you're adamant about most swords being able to be used with Two Swords; I'm going to have agree that Suiton would probably be "bad". I actually like this Coral Sword the second best of your ideas...too bad I like Raven's Coral Sword idea better.


8. Ice Brand: I think the change to Ice Brand is most appropriate. I'm hesitant of Two Swords, but even here and even with Ice 3, it seems to matter little since Ninja have piss-poor MA; it might be problematic on Squires and Geomancers, though.


Not bad for a first draft, but I concur with Raven that Swords should be hodgepodge in their approaches, partly because of their distribution:

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 20, 2012, 04:42:46 pm
Herp Swords Derp.


Tri-Edge - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Fire, Ice, Lightning Element, 33% Separately Add: Oil, Slow, Don't Move on Hit.
Tactician Blade - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 Jump.
Parry Edge - 9 WP, 25% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Moonlight - 9 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33/50% Cast: Blade Beam on Hit.
Blood Sword - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Absorb HP on Hit.
Coral Sword - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Water, 33% Cast: Water Ball on Hit.
Ancient Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Petrify on Hit.
Sleep Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Sleep on Hit.
Platinum Sword - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Shieldrender - 8 WP, 5% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 50% Cast Shield Break on Hit.
Ice Brand - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 20% Cast Ice 3 on Hit.
Rune Blade - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Lionheart - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, PA +2.
Ultima Weapon - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33% Ultima.

The idea here is to keep Swords as a grab-bag of random shit, stealing and morphing a few of the ideas I liked from both CT5Holy and Eternal and adding a bunch of my own to fill all the unused Sword slots in Arena.  I've kept a mix - some blades with high WP and No Two Swords or Two Hands, many weapons with both Two Swords and Two Hands to promote Two Swords, and still others with No Two Swords but Yes Two Hands to promote Two Hands use.  I'll do specific reasonings on-request for these since a lot is here and I have shit to be doing, so :v.



I'll try to be thorough in my reasons for bringing up Blood Sword and Lionheart specifically above. Don't blame me if I half-ass everything else, though, especially with the way that this computer is still acting:


1. Tri-Edge: Certainly an interesting idea, even if being part Fire is doubtless going to screw it over due to Black Costume's popularity. Speaking of screwing over, while I understand what you're going for with Separate, Random would be better and cause it to occur more often, especially at 33%; otherwise, the proc would be more akin to 8.25%--33/4--unless procs are exempting from the quartering that Separate unfortunately does. As faux compensation for that, perhaps lower the WP to 9 to further the theme of threes? Otherwise, I do like this a bit, I'm just...dubious about it because of the Fire aspect, but it's not like everyone wears those all the time. Alternately, increase its WP to 12 and drop being able to be used with Two Swords, partly because I do realize that they can be absorbed by the two other pieces of Absorb Clothing that aren't Earth Clothes.


2. Tactician Blade: For the record since you mentioned it earlier, I'm fine with this. I just don't think Geomancer should have Move 5 for reasons I already stated. This, though, is fine.


3. Parry Edge: I'm also fine with this I guess, even as annoying as 25% W-EV on such commonly available weapon might be with good WP; at least Main Gauche's WP is piss-poor and most jobs that get it can't use it with a Shield automatically. So this being able to be used with Two Swords kinda bugs me. I'd be up for getting rid of that while still allowing it to be used with Two Hands and potentially upping its W-EV to 30% as recompense, though Two Swords isn't exactly the end of the world on this thing.


4. Moonlight: Blade Beam does what exactly? The same thing as Balance only it's not avoidable or affected by MA or Faith, correct? Yeah...I don't know how I feel about that considering how I feel about (current) "Shock"-based techniques in general, 0 W-EV% aside. That said, I suppose the 0 W-EV% does kinda make up for it, even if it's not forced Two Hands. I'd say only 33% chance though if it can be Two Handed, but again that's me erring on the side of caution, especially with the ever-increasing amount of changes.


5. Blood Sword: Okay, so here's my problem with thing being able to be used with Two Hands despite the 0% W-EV: all drain techniques currently heal 100% of the damage they inflict. Considering that Blood Sword already does decent damage & is already the best sword and that AI can't see reactions & has been seen repeatedly to stupidly, physically attack with flimsy mages that have MP left, this thing seems like it would get really ugly, really quickly with something as simple as Counter & Two Hands; by "best" here, I mean the one most worth using if one had to use a Sword to physically attack, even though Rune Blade is probably the most diverse for other things due to +2 MA. If it wasn't for that, if the drain was between 30-50% percent, then I could completely get behind it having Two Hands. At present though, I'm sorry but I have to say no; "having" to use a mantle isn't exactly selling on that.


6. Coral Sword: If it wasn't for Frog probably dispelling on death now, then I might still have oppose this despite Frog being so unlikely to occur. That said, I really like this now, so...yeah. Good job.


7. Ancient Sword: Meh. The Petrify aspect probably just needs to die. I'll try to think of something that's less like a "You're better off dead 20% of the time". I'm tempted to say just give it Stop, but that's not much better.


8. Sleep Sword: What I said to CT5Holy kind applies here, though I'm not sure how I feel about the lowered chance to Sleep.


9. Platinum Sword: Still utterly apathetic to this, though I'll say in that in the case of your swords, it's decidedly inferior to Lionheart on the Two Hands front, so it being able to be used with Two Hands is pointless.


10. Shieldrender: I rather like this. Not much more to say besides that.


11. Ice Brand: I'm not really sure about whether I like this version better or CT5Holy's to be honest. I'll need to think on it more.


12. Rune Blade: Again, see what I said to CT5Holy.


13. Lionheart: My problem with this is lesser than Blood Sword, I suppose, but still something I'd rather avoid: Wouldn't using this with Two Hands essentially mean this gave +4 PA? That seems a bit...much, especially since it's only two slots being used as opposed to having to use other +PA gear, though of course you could still use that, upping it even more.... But, yeah, I don't think a mere WP drop will help deter that.


14. Ultima Weapon: I guess this is fine. It's been forever since Ultima's been used, though, so I'm not exactly sure how often it "should" trigger.


I'll try to think of something to turn Ancient Sword into--I think I have an idea already. However, I otherwise have little interest in Swords, at least presently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Celdia on May 21, 2012, 06:37:22 am
I see "Tri-Edge" and all I can think of is that game company Tri-Ace. How about "Delta Edge" as a nod to all the Delta Attack/etc skills found in the various games?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 01:46:46 am
Mind if I bring the discussion back to poison for a bit?  I took a few minutes to collate the changes related to poison that were proposed:

QuoteAdd: Wretched Blade (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, +Poison, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Poison (AoE +1, Vert +1)
Change: Wiznaibus (+25% Poison, still damages HP.)
Poison Bow (+2 WP)


I'm glad to see how poison is being put to greater use.  However, I am wary about how these changes will meld with poison lasting beyond death.  The point of making poison persist is to encourage people to cure it before the poisoned unit dies, right?  I foresee two skills in the above list that will make pushing players toward poison management feel more like pushing them off of a cliff:

Wretched blade: An AoE, weapon elemental physical attack that inflicts poison 100% of the time.  This is grand cross without the self-heal.  The AI loves to use Grand Cross; it will love this, too.  Teams fully equipped to cure poison have enough trouble cleansing the 100% poison from Kiyomori.  That this has potential to deal heavy damage in addition to 100% poison (remember that it takes the weapon's element, so it can be boosted by element strengthening and oil) will only compound this difficulty.  Thus, I am led to believe that Wretched Blade is too powerful to apply the new version of poison.

My proposal: Remove +Poison.  Alternatively, have it add poison at low (20-33%) probability.

Wiznaibus: 25% chance of inflicting every opposing unit with poison.  This amounts to:

68% chance of inflicting at least one unit with poison;
26% chance of inflicting at least two units with poison.

If Wiznaibus is mimed (as it often is), the odds become 90% and 44%, respectively.  Bear in mind that Wiznaibus targets the entire field, so this skill has the highest likelihood of inflicting poison on units spread far apart.  This means that one turn will be need to be devoted to cleanse each unit of poison.  And since Wiznaibus targets the entire field, dancers can effortlessly continue poisoning units, thereby putting the opposing team in a laborious status-healing loop.

My proposal: Remove Wiznaibus' ability to be mimed.  I have nothing against buffing Wiznaibus.  Dancers need it.  On the other hand, I do not like full-map AoE skills on principle because their boundary between "useless" and "broken" is razor thin.  The skills need to be kept weak because the opposing team has no way of avoiding their effects, yet if they're kept too weak, nobody uses them.  That's why I am treading lightly with changes to Wiznaibus.

My proposal will give the opposing team a chance to manage the poison.  Forcing your opponent to cleanse poison once every 6 clock ticks will put your opponent's healers under mild stress.  Forcing your opponent to cleanse it twice will put them under great stress.  However, the odds are low enough to avoid breaking your opponent's management capabilities.  (And by "breaking" I mean making poison management impossible.)  90% and 44% odds, however, won't.   Teams without poison healing are going to get punished all the same, so the "+Poison" buff is still going to work.

Poison: Will have 2 AoE and 3 vert with the change.  I am less worried about this than Wretched Blade and Wiznaibus because it (a) doesn't deal immediate damage and (b) isn't full-map, persisting AoE.  With that being said, the Poison spell's current Y value is so high (115!) that it hits just about every target.  Its Y value was set this high to entice people to use it.  Nobody did.  Now, with 2 AoE and an accompanying Poison buff, the spell stands to have this value lowered.  75, the same value for Time Magic's Don't Move, seems fair.  Black Magic is being taken in good directions with "back" spells, water spells, status infliction, and the removal of Venetian Shields.  We don't need to add to this with a wildly functional Poison spell.  Let's lower its Y value, then raise it later if need be.

On the subject of Wizards, does anyone have a thematic status effect that the tier 1 water spell can inflict?  +20% faith would make for a nice, albeit inefficient, way to topple 40 Faith units.

Finally, what do people think of changing Cherche and Setiemson?  I think that they are too useful at the moment.  Sure, accessories are meant to be useful, but no accessory is useful against roughly half of every attack in the game apart from these two.  Pair these accessories with their complementary (Magic) Defense UP and you have yourself an ultimate defense against HP damage.  I fear that this perma-defense will become worse with Warpath, behind which players can comfortably boost their Fury to 100.  (Holy march won't be as bad, as units using it must expose themselves to either status effects by equipping Setiemson or magic damage by equipping a mantle.)  The perfumes steal the thunder of the Protect and Shell spells, as well.  I say we demote "Always: Protect/Shell" to "Init: Protect/Shell" in exchange for some minor buffs, like +1 PA/MA.  When you consider that Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet give identical stat boosts with a humble +15% EV, these changes don't seem so egregious.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 06:24:02 am
Deal with replying to The Damned after I get back from my doctor's appointment.

@Gaignun:

Re: Wretched Blade - I've always felt the Poison proc on this skill was pointless as it's already a great DPS move, as you've pointed out.  I wouldn't be against removing Poison from it at all.  The person who pushed for having Poison on it was FDC, and it's always felt both non-fitting and rather pointless to be putting Poison on a high-DPS move to me anyway.  It also doesn't fit the Paladin flavor much at all.

Re: Wiznaibus - I'd rather further lower the %rate of Poison on Wiznaibus to 10% or 15% than remove Mime.  The entire point of this upgrade to Wiznaibus is to buff Miming teams.  I've mentioned this in replies to The Damned, but those get so long I don't begrudge people forgetting things: When we thinktank changes, usually it follows thought lines of "Mimes are cool, how can we make Mimes have more stuff to do?", "Undead are cool, how can we throw people more toys for Undead teams?", etc.  This again started as one of FDC's changes, though he originally wanted 50%.  I talked him down to 25%, but I'd also be more comfortable with 15% myself on both Wiznaibus and Life Song's procs - 15% v the whole field for a purely bonus effect is still nice, even without Miming, and it buffs the skills in a way other than just outright cranking their Ys.

Re: Poison - I'd be fine with lowering the Y value to 75-80 for the reason you mentioned.  It's still a good base value with the "new" Faith system, and Wizards do have the highest base MA for pulling their spells off.  Your rates to hit should still be good and the area is wide.  Like you said, it can be buffed a bit more if needed, but more powerful Poison Status + vastly superior range should more than offset the Y dip for now.

Re: Water 2 proc - Faith would be /interesting/, but Fire 2 already procs Oil, which does the same thing by doubling damage to every Element in the Wizard's skillset.  The only difference is that Water 2 would buff Poison, Death, and Flare as well - but it's still basically using the same design space.  I'm not sure what proc Water really /could/ have honestly without breaking the theme of having X 2 procs each being different and effective against basically any unit to at least some degree, but Faith doesn't fit for me because Oil already does it.

Re: Cherche and Setiemson - I need to disagree here for a couple reasons.  They were already Initial: Protect/Shell at one point (and I THINK even had the +1 PA / +1 MA, but my memory may escape me) and literally no one used them, from long before I started playing Arena at 1.31-1.32ish to now.  This is the first time I've seen those items even used, and they don't seem to be common to the point of metagame-warping.  The combo just gives people a stronger alternative to Unyielding at the cost of your Accessory slot, which usually means losing Initial: Reraise and being forced to go without it at all unless you waste your Reaction on Dragon Spirit or something.  This is also the reason many Accessories are being buffed - Accessories are generally meant to be great, but in Arena, the ones that aren't great suck HARD, which is why things like the Mantle buff are occurring.  We also know Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet suck ass, and there were items that we'd devised in our IRC chat to replace them, but FDC didn't add them to his list and I currently don't remember them.  I'll try to remember them and add them to the list next time I compile a change list.  As for Cherche and Setiemson though, like I said, this is the first time anyone's really even bothered to use them since the change from Initial: to Always: was either 1.36 or 1.37, and before I took a hiatus from FFH a month or two ago no one used them and the version number was still the same.  Let's buff the other Accessories first and not freak out because the thing that was just buffed is actually getting used.

Speaking of, I should do another change list soon so all this new shit can be shoved in and kept track of alongside everything else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 22, 2012, 01:37:38 pm
I'd like Wiznaibus/Poison at 19-20%. It might actually make Wiznaibus a properly useful offensive skill for once.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 03:59:21 pm
(Heh, you have a doctor's appointment as well? Mine is later in the day, so I probably won't be here when you reply unless you're back already.)

I'm still not sure how I feel about Ice Brand, admittedly.

However, I believe that I've decided on a potentially decent Ancient Sword replacement/re-tooling...even if it's semi-whoring myself out since it's basically the design I have for Embargo's Ancient Sword at present:


Ancient Sword: 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Element: Earth; 33% Immobilize; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No.


Basically, it allows the user to stay in the opponent's face should the infliction go off while getting rid of that pesky Petrify aspect. Similarly, it simultaneously both has superior qualities to Ninja Edge with its evade and potentially greater power yet also has inferior qualities, such as lower initial WP and being unable to be used with Two Swords, to avoid outright obviating Ninja Edge. Additionally, its elemental quality gives Paladins another source of Earth-based Grand Cross without stepping on any of the other Earth element weapons; Earth element also gives it the same double-edge with regards to Ninja Edge as it is potentially a boon in terms of Strengthen, but also possibly allows it to be absorbed and, in the case of Grand Cross, avoided. The 33% chance is to be more likely than a single Ninja Edge (especially since it can be used with Hidden Knife) at causing Don't Move, but lower than two of them used together.

Please discuss.

Quote from: Celdia on May 21, 2012, 06:37:22 am
I see "Tri-Edge" and all I can think of is that game company Tri-Ace. How about "Delta Edge" as a nod to all the Delta Attack/etc skills found in the various games?



You got something against barrels?

TEAR INTO PIECES!


Seriously, Delta-Edge has potential, though I do rather like Tri-Edge, partly because of the Tri-Ace thing. Still, I had never realized how often Delta Attack (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Delta_Attack) has shown up until now.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 01:46:46 am
Mind if I bring the discussion back to poison for a bit?  I took a few minutes to collate the changes related to poison that were proposed:

I'm glad to see how poison is being put to greater use.  However, I am wary about how these changes will meld with poison lasting beyond death.  The point of making poison persist is to encourage people to cure it before the poisoned unit dies, right?  I foresee two skills in the above list that will make pushing players toward poison management feel more like pushing them off of a cliff:

*amputate*


Yeah, the buffs for Poison-related abilities do seem a bit overzealous at present, but that's only natural with all the other changes happening. Being "natural" doesn't necessarily excuse it though:


1. "Blightbane": *dodges objects thrown by Raven*

Yeah, I haven't exactly liked this from the beginning on a mechanical or "flavorful" level. ARENA's Paladins, just like my own, do rather need another physical attack at present though. So do we just give them a close-range, possibly Holy-element AoE attack that doesn't hit the self and makes up for them losing Dia? Or do we give them something different that also makes use of status, though something more along the lines of Immobilize or something else that doesn't last beyond the grave?


2. Wiznaibus & Mime: Dancers are already worse than Bards, at least when it comes to the skills that are actually (usable) in Dance at present. I'd rather not screw them out of being able to have Wiznaibus be Mimicked as well.

That said, yeah, Wiznaibus definitely needs less of a chance of Poison, at least if it's still not going to be physically evadable and possibly even if it was. As such, I agree with Raven that it's chance to Poison should probably be between 10%-15%. I don't have time at present to be doing the math for how that statistically improves (read: lowers) things, though.

Of course, there's the still the separate question of whether the opposing AI would even attempt to remove Poison while Wiznaibus is being Danced no matter how low the Poison chance is if (old) Nameless Dance is any indication....


3. Wizard's Poison: What Raven said. Y becoming 75 is more than fair considering the AoE boost and how Poison is a lot deadlier than Don't Move in most instances.


4. Water 2 Causing 20% Faith: As "interesting" as it would be, it would undermine the whole point of trying to use the Back abilities/spells, even if not entirely, on top of it semi-competing with Oil as Raven pointed out. Unfortunately, there aren't really any negative statuses left that are temporary, though I suppose if you wanted to "punish" low-Faith units, which tend to have higher Brave/Fury/Whatever, then Sleep might be plausible. Too bad that lasts way too long at present and would thus likely end up as being overpowered.

As much it "breaks" the theme and parity, if the Water spells really do end up all ignoring Reflect, then I'm really not sure they "need" anything.


5. Cherche & Setiemson: What Raven said with regards to this I also agree with since, yes, they literally weren't used more than a dozen times before the change to this version; IIRC, Cherche added +1 PA and Setiemson added +1 MA when they were Initial: Protect and Initial: Shell, respectively. As such, giving them +1 PA & +1 MA wouldn't exactly make people want to use them if you changed them back to Initial, especially when Diamond Armlet sees no use despite not getting screwed over by Dispel Magic; I'd point out Cursed Ring, but that has other issues that have nothing to do with the stat boosts.

They're currently seeing so much use partly because at least half of the other accessories are rather...unusable or, at least, not really worth it at present when compared to them or Angel Ring or Chantage or Reflect Ring or maybe Dracula Mantle and a few others. So let's boost the other things first and then, perhaps if they're still as obnoxious next version, then think about how or if to "nerf" them; it's arguable that they'll still be fine since, really, it's not like many people were using Magic Defend UP or Defend UP before this either when/while Unyielding was around.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 22, 2012, 04:43:24 pm
Cherche and Setiemson were indeed +1 PA/MA, Initial: Protect/Shell at one point, and yeah, they weren't used.

Agree with getting rid of Poison from Wretched Blade. I think it should be weapon element to give it more opportunities for use, as opposed to just Holy element.

What if we gave Water a 20-25% chance of dispelling positive status? Is that possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pm
Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 amBefore I forget again, I should ask something: Are "we" going to let all Black Magic spells be subject to M-EV with Tier 4 spells probably dying and becoming (un-Reflectable) Water? Or are we just going to let Tier 3 spells ignore M-EV while being still subject to Reflect now that they're the "strongest"?


I had a long reply to this but it went into the aether.  Basically no because that shits on the entire design direction of this update.  You want no M-EV, use Flare.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am1. Ninja's Not Being the Physically Strongest: I wasn't talking about Ninja flipping out and killing everyone through sheer power. I was talking about Ninja being the best because they have surety of hitting due to Hidden Knife. Yes, I shall concede that Ninja need to use Equip Light Blade to even equip Swords, but they still get Concentrate in addition to having innate Two Swords while the classes that you use as examples have to spring for Two Swords without getting Concentrate. As little PA as Ninja need have due to innate Two Swords, quite a few weapons don't really depend on power as much due to what they cause, so as long as they hit, which is what Hidden Knife allows. While I will no longer "rally" for that to lose more than its +1 Sp (for now), I'm still taking it into account as far as potential problems go given how commonly it is used.


Hidden Knife has no real WP and a shitty DMG formula, and you give up your Support to Equip Light Blade and a single Sword so your DPS is in the shitter even if Ninja DID have respectable PA if that's your setup.  If you're looking for a proc combo, your best bet is still the Platina Dagger for Climhazzard since it effectively doubles your DPS, and does better ally combos, and allows you to use a more relevant Support skill related to erm, basically any role your Ninja wants to be doing.
Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am1. Tri-Edge: Certainly an interesting idea, even if being part Fire is doubtless going to screw it over due to Black Costume's popularity. Speaking of screwing over, while I understand what you're going for with Separate, Random would be better and cause it to occur more often, especially at 33%; otherwise, the proc would be more akin to 8.25%--33/4--unless procs are exempting from the quartering that Separate unfortunately does. As faux compensation for that, perhaps lower the WP to 9 to further the theme of threes? Otherwise, I do like this a bit, I'm just...dubious about it because of the Fire aspect, but it's not like everyone wears those all the time. Alternately, increase its WP to 12 and drop being able to be used with Two Swords, partly because I do realize that they can be absorbed by the two other pieces of Absorb Clothing that aren't Earth Clothes.


It is an odd weapon, indeed, and yes, the Separate %hit rate could probably be boosted to 50% or so.  It was mostly a concept weapon, but I do admit being blocked by everything that's not Earth Clothes is going to basically make it worthless.  I will think up something else because I don't think this design can be saved without being maimed beyond all recognition anyway.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am3. Parry Edge: I'm also fine with this I guess, even as annoying as 25% W-EV on such commonly available weapon might be with good WP; at least Main Gauche's WP is piss-poor and most jobs that get it can't use it with a Shield automatically. So this being able to be used with Two Swords kinda bugs me. I'd be up for getting rid of that while still allowing it to be used with Two Hands and potentially upping its W-EV to 30% as recompense, though Two Swords isn't exactly the end of the world on this thing.


Not gonna lie, a main point of this Sword was to overcome the Two Swords evasion weakness at the cost of WP on Sword-bearing classes at the cost of WP, and give Shield-bearers a Defender-like option to go with.  (The main difference is a Shield-bearer gets M-EV, a Two Swords bearer does not, and we're pushing to make M-EV more relevant after all.)  It might need to lose 1 WP, but otherwise, that's the idea.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am4. Moonlight: Blade Beam does what exactly? The same thing as Balance only it's not avoidable or affected by MA or Faith, correct? Yeah...I don't know how I feel about that considering how I feel about (current) "Shock"-based techniques in general, 0 W-EV% aside. That said, I suppose the 0 W-EV% does kinda make up for it, even if it's not forced Two Hands. I'd say only 33% chance though if it can be Two Handed, but again that's me erring on the side of caution, especially with the ever-increasing amount of changes.


Yes, Blade Beam is an unavoidable Shock!  This is again like Blood Sword in that it's meant to be an all-or-nothing weapon if you Two Hands it, or a perked weapon with a small drawback if you one-hand it.  It is stronger than Platina Dagger DPS wise and can be used with Two Hands, but cannot be Two Swords for the double Platina Dagger combo, hence why I still went with 50%.  It's a strong proc - but so is the Climhazzard proc, and unlike Climhazzard, you only get one shot here.  This just makes up for it by being slightly better as a weapon when you don't proc.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am5. Blood Sword: Okay, so here's my problem with thing being able to be used with Two Hands despite the 0% W-EV: all drain techniques currently heal 100% of the damage they inflict. Considering that Blood Sword already does decent damage & is already the best sword and that AI can't see reactions & has been seen repeatedly to stupidly, physically attack with flimsy mages that have MP left, this thing seems like it would get really ugly, really quickly with something as simple as Counter & Two Hands; by "best" here, I mean the one most worth using if one had to use a Sword to physically attack, even though Rune Blade is probably the most diverse for other things due to +2 MA. If it wasn't for that, if the drain was between 30-50% percent, then I could completely get behind it having Two Hands. At present though, I'm sorry but I have to say no; "having" to use a mantle isn't exactly selling on that.


1. Periods exist, use them.  I don't care if that sentence is grammatically correct, Jesus Christ.

2. You vastly undersell the AI with you "mages going in for melee while they can still cast" shtick, given that almost never happens in Arena due to the spells actually having manageable CTs.  The only time the AI really does that is when they can't cast before the turn resolves and they can't get outside the target's Move range, or if they can get the kill without spending MP, though sometimes they'll go for the Spell to kill anyway.  There's a huge reason Counter Blood Sword with Attack UP huge PA stacks doesn't already magically cripple mages and other "stupid AI that can't see Reactions" the way you describe - because the AI is far smarter than you seem to want to say it is, even if it can't see Counter.  As for it being "the best Sword", yeah, it's "the best" out of a bunch of terrible weapons that no one uses for the sake of their melee attack anyway.  At the behest of offending every person to ever read this thread and not regretting it at all, I must say that being the best retard in a giant mountain of retards doesn't make you great - at the end of the day, you're still a retard.  And that's basically Blood Sword's position.  It's "the best Sword" insomuch as "every other Sword sucks at DPS horribly other than maybe Ice Brand and at least this one gives some HP back.", and most Blood Sword users really don't hit very hard at all.  Even in FDC's team "Blood", the high-DPS Blood Sword Paladins didn't do an encouragingly large amount of DPS - that mostly came from the Bards that could swing out more than their own Max HP in Blood Harp damage, while the Paladins struggled to do even half that with a damage-boosting Support equipped to them.  (Not sure which had Overwhelm and which had Attack UP, though.)  As such, I really need to say that your concern in this case has shaky foundations.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am7. Ancient Sword: Meh. The Petrify aspect probably just needs to die. I'll try to think of something that's less like a "You're better off dead 20% of the time". I'm tempted to say just give it Stop, but that's not much better.


There's nothing wrong with a weapon that has a powerful proc, bro.  See: Climhazzard, etc., which are often far more damning far more consistently than an Ancient Sword would be.  If every proc weapon were just boring shit like Slow, some really weak DPS move, etc., we'd just end up with either people ignoring them all and maxing DPS or people having 20+ minute slugfests with a bunch of gear that sucks.  Guess what, Arena went through both of those phases already, they both sucked.  Yeah, you get this odd thing called "lucky" when you Petrify someone with an Ancient Sword, but that's the entire point of a proc - sometimes you get lucky and shit goes your way, sometimes you don't, and that's the risk v reward.  You just seem to be outright against any powerful proc (Stop, Frog, Petrify, etc.) on basically any semi-common skill or weapon.  I'm not trying to be condescending or make fun of your nerfnerfnerf for once - actually go look at your post history, you've spoken out against almost every instance of adding Stop or Petrify to anything so far and seem to be striving to making them even less common than they already are, when they're really not all that common from non-dedicated moves to begin with.  (Though oddly, you seem to have no qualms with Sleep even though you're almost more guaranteed a kill from that than Stop.  Huh.)

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am8. Sleep Sword: What I said to CT5Holy kind applies here, though I'm not sure how I feel about the lowered chance to Sleep.


Sleep proc could probably be kept at 25%.  I forget why I lowered it.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am9. Platinum Sword: Still utterly apathetic to this, though I'll say in that in the case of your swords, it's decidedly inferior to Lionheart on the Two Hands front, so it being able to be used with Two Hands is pointless.


It's pointless unless you're bad.  I am fully open to allowing people to be bad.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am11. Ice Brand: I'm not really sure about whether I like this version better or CT5Holy's to be honest. I'll need to think on it more.


My main idea here was to keep Ice Brand Grand Cross a thing, since very few weapons I had were sitting in the no-Two Swords, no-Two Hands tier without being at least semi-gimmicky, and Ice Brand Grand Cross is one of the few instances where Swords can be shown as something other than suckage.  It basically fills the roles of "generic high DPS beater with no gimmick" and "Grand Cross love Sword" at the same time.


Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am12. Rune Blade: Again, see what I said to CT5Holy.


If a mage wants +4 MA, they use dual Wizard Staff and get far better DPS than this.  Or you use two mages each with one Wizard Staff and one Gold Staff / Rainbow Staff.  Or if they're a Sage as they probably are, they spam Wizard Staff and Wizard Rod together because Sages have an OP gear pool.  The thing is, mages can do what you describe, and their damage formula is MA*WP, so they get a direct DPS boost from it, unlike dual Rune Blades.  Dual Rune Blades is a strictly inferior Dual Platinum Swords that allows the holder to use skills like Draw Out, Talk Skill, or Geomancy with at least a shred of competence, great for Geomancers (hey that class no one uses), or anything subbing the above skillsets.  It really doesn't make anything that already is good any better, and only opens new options up for people if they choose to pursue them.


Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am13. Lionheart: My problem with this is lesser than Blood Sword, I suppose, but still something I'd rather avoid: Wouldn't using this with Two Hands essentially mean this gave +4 PA? That seems a bit...much, especially since it's only two slots being used as opposed to having to use other +PA gear, though of course you could still use that, upping it even more.... But, yeah, I don't think a mere WP drop will help deter that.


It's +4 PA insomuch as PA is doubled, but a WP drop will deter that horribly.  There's a reason the best DPS comes from having the PA and WP values be as close together as possible.  9*3 is only 27, but 6*6 is 36, after all.  Losing 1 WP will result in more of a damage drop than somehow making Lionheart only add 1.5 PA would, so it does similar to what you want (reigning it in a bit) without making it not do what I want it to do (be a good +PA stick that's usable without Two Hands).  While it probably could get away with only being +1 PA and still be usable to some level, with the vast increase in quality seen by every Sword here, a 12 WP +1 PA Sword that's only usable with Two Hands is pretty underwhelming in the long run.  It's also worth noting that the boost is only "doubled" for Attack calculation, and in many cases, you will want the 2 PA from Lionheart to do things other than Attack.

Quote from: The Damned on May 21, 2012, 01:38:52 am14. Ultima Weapon: I guess this is fine. It's been forever since Ultima's been used, though, so I'm not exactly sure how often it "should" trigger.


It's MA*9, making it close to a Doubleshot that goes off your MA score instead of your PA score.  Originally I was going to go all the way with the Doubleshot parody and make it 50%, but Ultima Weapon has 10 WP (v 7/8 on Dual Cutters and Bow Gun), has a better damage formula than Dual Cutters, and can be used with Two Hands.  Obviously Two Hands won't buff the proc damage, but it will still hurt like a bitch.




GODDAMNIT THE DAMNED STOP DOING THAT WHILE I AM TRYING TO POST.  CT5HOLY, YOU TOO.  I'LL REPLY TO YOUR SHITS LATER, CHRIST.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 06:29:50 pm
(Hmmm....I have about an hour left now before I have to go the doctor given that I couldn't do what I was trying to do, so I guess I can respond to Raven yet again, right?)

In my defense, my latest post doesn't really have anything that you really need address sans maybe Ancient Sword, and even that's not really important; for the record, didn't someone else already explain why Petrify is so bad as proc? (Also, didn't I say that I was comfortable with letting Ancient Sword cause Stop?)

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pm1. Periods exist, use them.  I don't care if that sentence is grammatically correct, Jesus Christ.


Never! Grammatical atheism forever!

Alternately, "Problem? You mad?"

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 22, 2012, 04:43:24 pm
Cherche and Setiemson were indeed +1 PA/MA, Initial: Protect/Shell at one point, and yeah, they weren't used.

Agree with getting rid of Poison from Wretched Blade. I think it should be weapon element to give it more opportunities for use, as opposed to just Holy element.

What if we gave Water a 20-25% chance of dispelling positive status? Is that possible?


I don't think I'll even use a numerical list this time; time to whore multi-quotes:

Oh okay, good to know I'm not insane...well, not insane with regards to previous perfumes and that's good enough, right?

Well, I'd be all for "Wretched Blade"/"Blightbane" becoming generic, elemental-weapon damage, but then wouldn't it become basically inferior to Grand Cross?

Yeah, that should be easily doable given that all we have to do is give it the same ISC as Dispel Magic; why did you think we wouldn't able to do it?


Okay. I'll stop trolling Raven by not using periods (often).

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmI had a long reply to this but it went into the aether.  Basically no because that shits on the entire design direction of this update.  You want no M-EV, use Flare.


Oh, okay. I'm fine with that. I just want to have it be cleared up and be sure given how much formerdeathcorps apparently left out of his original post.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmHidden Knife has no real WP and a shitty DMG formula, and you give up your Support to Equip Light Blade and a single Sword so your DPS is in the shitter even if Ninja DID have respectable PA if that's your setup.  If you're looking for a proc combo, your best bet is still the Platina Dagger for Climhazzard since it effectively doubles your DPS, and does better ally combos, and allows you to use a more relevant Support skill related to erm, basically any role your Ninja wants to be doing.


Oh, I agree with this, though I'd argue that says more about Platina Dagger being at least somewhat overpowered than anything else. Still, I don't want to Platina Dagger to be nerfed (or at least, I don't think it's nearly as pressing a concern that it needs to be addressed before literally hundreds of other things), so meh. I'll agree to disagree.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pm[Tri-Edge] is an odd weapon, indeed, and yes, the Separate %hit rate could probably be boosted to 50% or so.  It was mostly a concept weapon, but I do admit being blocked by everything that's not Earth Clothes is going to basically make it worthless.  I will think up something else because I don't think this design can be saved without being maimed beyond all recognition anyway.


Very well.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmNot gonna lie, a main point of [Parry Edge] was to overcome the Two Swords evasion weakness at the cost of WP on Sword-bearing classes at the cost of WP, and give Shield-bearers a Defender-like option to go with.  (The main difference is a Shield-bearer gets M-EV, a Two Swords bearer does not, and we're pushing to make M-EV more relevant after all.)  It might need to lose 1 WP, but otherwise, that's the idea.


Ah, I see. I'm fine with that, then. Not sure it even "needs" to lose 1 WP, but you'd know better than I would at this point, if I'm only because I'm too lazy to do the math for this while doing the math for other things.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmYes, Blade Beam is an unavoidable Shock!  [Moonlight] is again like Blood Sword in that it's meant to be an all-or-nothing weapon if you Two Hands it, or a perked weapon with a small drawback if you one-hand it.  It is stronger than Platina Dagger DPS wise and can be used with Two Hands, but cannot be Two Swords for the double Platina Dagger combo, hence why I still went with 50%.  It's a strong proc - but so is the Climhazzard proc, and unlike Climhazzard, you only get one shot here.  This just makes up for it by being slightly better as a weapon when you don't proc.


Meh, I guess. I just really don't like Shock-esque abilities, at least as they are now. Then again, given it's the AI, they'll see a lot less abuse than they would in human hands, so I suppose I'm more or less okay with that this dislike.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pm2. You vastly undersell the AI with you "mages going in for melee while they can still cast" shtick, given that almost never happens in Arena due to the spells actually having manageable CTs.  The only time the AI really does that is when they can't cast before the turn resolves and they can't get outside the target's Move range, or if they can get the kill without spending MP, though sometimes they'll go for the Spell to kill anyway.  There's a huge reason Counter Blood Sword with Attack UP huge PA stacks doesn't already magically cripple mages and other "stupid AI that can't see Reactions" the way you describe - because the AI is far smarter than you seem to want to say it is, even if it can't see Counter.


I suppose I should have said that was a minor thing issue, but I felt that sentence was already long enough; I'm not sure if that counts as "irony" or anything.

But, yeah, I know the AI isn't that dumb. I'm just saying it's potential problem, though admittedly minor compared to the issue you didn't (directly) answer: Drain attacks fully healing the HP damage they inflict. Bringing up Bloody Strings just reminds me how much they still manage to make Ramia Harp/Lamia Harp and Fairy Harp pointless despite their buffs.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmAs for it being "the best Sword", yeah, it's "the best" out of a bunch of terrible weapons that no one uses for the sake of their melee attack anyway.  At the behest of offending every person to ever read this thread and not regretting it at all, I must say that being the best retard in a giant mountain of retards doesn't make you great - at the end of the day, you're still a retard.  And that's basically Blood Sword's position.  It's "the best Sword" insomuch as "every other Sword sucks at DPS horribly other than maybe Ice Brand and at least this one gives some HP back.", and most Blood Sword users really don't hit very hard at all.  Even in FDC's team "Blood", the high-DPS Blood Sword Paladins didn't do an encouragingly large amount of DPS - that mostly came from the Bards that could swing out more than their own Max HP in Blood Harp damage, while the Paladins struggled to do even half that with a damage-boosting Support equipped to them.  (Not sure which had Overwhelm and which had Attack UP, though.)  As such, I really need to say that your concern in this case has shaky foundations.


See above. I know that Blood Sword is basically king of a crap category and it does less damage to Bloody Strings, which has superior range and often damage. That doesn't make me feel anymore comfortable being used with Two Hands while it drains as much as it deals.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmThere's nothing wrong with a weapon that has a powerful proc, bro.  See: Climhazzard, etc., which are often far more damning far more consistently than an Ancient Sword would be.  If every proc weapon were just boring shit like Slow, some really weak DPS move, etc., we'd just end up with either people ignoring them all and maxing DPS or people having 20+ minute slugfests with a bunch of gear that sucks.  Guess what, Arena went through both of those phases already, they both sucked.  Yeah, you get this odd thing called "lucky" when you Petrify someone with an Ancient Sword, but that's the entire point of a proc - sometimes you get lucky and shit goes your way, sometimes you don't, and that's the risk v reward.  You just seem to be outright against any powerful proc (Stop, Frog, Petrify, etc.) on basically any semi-common skill or weapon.  I'm not trying to be condescending or make fun of your nerfnerfnerf for once - actually go look at your post history, you've spoken out against almost every instance of adding Stop or Petrify to anything so far and seem to be striving to making them even less common than they already are, when they're really not all that common from non-dedicated moves to begin with.  (Though oddly, you seem to have no qualms with Sleep even though you're almost more guaranteed a kill from that than Stop.  Huh.)


Sigh. I don't exactly want to make my posts even longer, but if you're asking for clarification on my positions, then very well:

1. With regards to Petrify: I'm actually only against Petrify of all four negative statuses you proposed because, as someone pointed out earlier, it's often worse than Dead. Either you can heal or you can't and if you can't, then that unit is just gone. Poof. Bye. They might as well have been hit with something that Adds Crystal.

While I'm not going to go as far as saying we need to get rid of Oracle's Petrify, that at least a) can be reflected, b) can be evaded, c) isn't on a counter (like how Ancient Sword or old Carve Model can be), d) goes off Faith, which means it has trouble against low-faith units, and e) is capable of being stopped by Silence or Berserk. The two whole other instances of Petrify, including Ancient Sword, do damage in addition to Petrifying, meaning its "deader than dead" bonus is just a "neat" little bonus. That just...seems wrong.

Alternately, Petrify also has the problem of meanings pretty much jack-shit if you can cure like Esuna and Stigma Magic does. It basically just becomes a worse version of Stop in that case.

If Petrify itself were less...bipolar about how effective it was, then I would be a lot less "do not want" about it being applicable via things.


2. Petrify vs. Frog: With Frog being dispelled on death, I'm no longer nearly as opposed to it as I was. My comment on Coral Sword was more about how if it still wasn't able to be dispelled on death, then I'd be more against--probably would still allow it--because a Critical Frog that starts to flee probably isn't getting cured of Frog. Ever.

I'm just against multi-target Frog, and even that's kinda relaxed on things do relatively mediocre damage like Water Ball, which unlike Bio 2 can be absorbed. My comment about Bio 2 was more about how it pretty much trumps Bio 3 as it is now, though part of that has to do with Bio 3 being Dark element.

Also, Frog being curable at least lets damage be done to it the mean time unlike Petrify and it's less "this unit is gone now" with Dead dispelling it whereas Petrify still is.


3. Petrify versus Stop: Actually, as I said above, after you explained Stop better two pages back with regards to Hell Ivy and I remembered how little it lasts, I've become completely fine with it. I wouldn't at all object to Stop being on Ancient Sword over Petrify or Don't Move; it just never comes to mind for me.


4. Petrify vs. Sleep: That's probably because a) you have to build teams to take advantage of Sleep otherwise that extra damage is wasted since it doesn't trigger off magick and b) all weapons that proc Sleep are shitty. Granted, Ancient Sword isn't stellar right now, but Two Swords with Sleep Swords has the chance to backfire where as two Ancient Swords don't, so there's that as well.

I'd like Sleep to last a bit less and I've said before that Mimic Daravon kinda bugs me, but you say I ask for nerfs too much, so that's why I've said nothing about either of those.

Does that explain my caution a bit more reasonably?

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmSleep proc could probably be kept at 25%.  I forget why I lowered it.


Shrug. I can't tell you.

Regardless, as I just said above, I'm fine with that.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmIt's pointless unless you're bad.  I am fully open to allowing people to be bad.


Heh. Fair enough.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmMy main idea here was to keep Ice Brand Grand Cross a thing, since very few weapons I had were sitting in the no-Two Swords, no-Two Hands tier without being at least semi-gimmicky, and Ice Brand Grand Cross is one of the few instances where Swords can be shown as something other than suckage.  It basically fills the roles of "generic high DPS beater with no gimmick" and "Grand Cross love Sword" at the same time.


I see. I still need time to think on it more, but this makes a bit more sense now.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmIf a mage wants +4 MA, they use dual Wizard Staff and get far better DPS than this.  Or you use two mages each with one Wizard Staff and one Gold Staff / Rainbow Staff.  Or if they're a Sage as they probably are, they spam Wizard Staff and Wizard Rod together because Sages have an OP gear pool.  The thing is, mages can do what you describe, and their damage formula is MA*WP, so they get a direct DPS boost from it, unlike dual Rune Blades.  Dual Rune Blades is a strictly inferior Dual Platinum Swords that allows the holder to use skills like Draw Out, Talk Skill, or Geomancy with at least a shred of competence, great for Geomancers (hey that class no one uses), or anything subbing the above skillsets.  It really doesn't make anything that already is good any better, and only opens new options up for people if they choose to pursue them.


What I said to CT5Holy already addressed all of this.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmIt's +4 PA insomuch as PA is doubled, but a WP drop will deter that horribly.  There's a reason the best DPS comes from having the PA and WP values be as close together as possible.  9*3 is only 27, but 6*6 is 36, after all.  Losing 1 WP will result in more of a damage drop than somehow making Lionheart only add 1.5 PA would, so it does similar to what you want (reigning it in a bit) without making it not do what I want it to do (be a good +PA stick that's usable without Two Hands).  While it probably could get away with only being +1 PA and still be usable to some level, with the vast increase in quality seen by every Sword here, a 12 WP +1 PA Sword that's only usable with Two Hands is pretty underwhelming in the long run.  It's also worth noting that the boost is only "doubled" for Attack calculation, and in many cases, you will want the 2 PA from Lionheart to do things other than Attack.


Hmm...I see. Still not comfortable, but much like Parry Edge, I can support this now.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 04:52:25 pmIt's MA*9, making it close to a Doubleshot that goes off your MA score instead of your PA score.  Originally I was going to go all the way with the Doubleshot parody and make it 50%, but Ultima Weapon has 10 WP (v 7/8 on Dual Cutters and Bow Gun), has a better damage formula than Dual Cutters, and can be used with Two Hands.  Obviously Two Hands won't buff the proc damage, but it will still hurt like a bitch.


Right. I'm fine with that. I just meant I honestly didn't remember.


Sorry for the laconic replies towards the end there, but I'm probably going to be late for my appointment now, so I can't proofread this either. Back in a couple of hours.




GODDAMNIT THE DAMNED STOP DOING THAT WHILE I AM TRYING TO POST.  CT5HOLY, YOU TOO.  I'LL REPLY TO YOUR SHITS LATER, CHRIST.
[/quote]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 22, 2012, 08:11:34 pm
Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 03:59:21 pmeah, I haven't exactly liked this from the beginning on a mechanical or "flavorful" level. ARENA's Paladins, just like my own, do rather need another physical attack at present though. So do we just give them a close-range, possibly Holy-element AoE attack that doesn't hit the self and makes up for them losing Dia? Or do we give them something different that also makes use of status, though something more along the lines of Immobilize or something else that doesn't last beyond the grave?


The point of Wretched Blade is that it's a Grand Cross that doesn't hit yourself.  This is actually amazing.  The best weapons you can really Grand Cross with are Excalibur, Blaze Gun (post-nerf), Ice Brand, and maybe 1-2 others I missed, because you hit yourself and are forced to run a Blind-blocking Absorption setup.  The fact it doesn't hit yourself means you lose out on your heal, but you can in turn use any weapon to attack with, including the incredibly high WP Chaos Blade.  It also costs less MP, giving you more uses.  Basically, Wretched Blade is a completely different move by changing the one most defining aspect of Grand Cross and leaving basically everything else the same.  That one change makes them completely different moves - one strong, generic, and adaptable, and the other incredibly strong, but linear and requiring specific setups to work.  They fill very different roles despite being almost the exact same skill.  This also helps Absorption teams on some levels since you could use Wretched Blade to AoE heal allies without healing self but gaining more setup flexibility in the process.  (Again, the Poison proc was something FDC insisted on to no end and is basically irrelevant to the move.)

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 22, 2012, 04:43:24 pmWhat if we gave Water a 20-25% chance of dispelling positive status? Is that possible?


Both possible and a good idea.  It's more niche but since Water also penetrates Reflect this isn't as big a deal.  It gets the weakest procs in terms of reliability but arguably one of the best Element perks.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 06:29:50 pmdidn't someone else already explain why Petrify is so bad as proc?


I did.  Doesn't mean I'm gonna remove all instances of it everywhere forever.  The main reason I rallied against anti-Petrify on Carve Model is that many maps are both very flat (allowing AoE hits) and almost 100% Carve Model (making the "Double Petrify OOOOO!") super-duper common.  Ancient Sword is nothing like Carve Model in terms of being able to slap a bitch with Petrify, lacking the AoE and the range.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 06:29:50 pmMeh, I guess. I just really don't like Shock-esque abilities, at least as they are now. Then again, given it's the AI, they'll see a lot less abuse than they would in human hands, so I suppose I'm more or less okay with that this dislike.


The AI doesn't see the proc on the weapon at all, so yes, they use it far worse than a human would.  It's like a Reaction, the AI doesn't even know it's there.  It's why procs tend to be useful against all units instead of things like Blind or Silence, with some highly dedicated exceptions like Bizen Boat.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 06:29:50 pmBut, yeah, I know the AI isn't that dumb. I'm just saying it's potential problem, though admittedly minor compared to the issue you didn't (directly) answer: Drain attacks fully healing the HP damage they inflict. Bringing up Bloody Strings just reminds me how much they still manage to make Ramia Harp/Lamia Harp and Fairy Harp pointless despite their buffs.


And I'm saying a Two Swords Blood Sword with no W-EV is still inferior to an Attack UP Bloody Strings, and neither are breaking the game as they are in Arena with 100% Absorption.  A team like FDC's Blood would eat bad teams alive simply because those bad teams suck and don't field damage while Blood does, but at this point in Arena, teams have gotten good enough that a good team will usually win, and FDC's Blood team is basically your problem with this change taken to its logical extreme.  Other Blood Sword users in the AI Tournament (from what I've noticed so far, at least, feel free to try and correct me and I'll examine things again) were both very uncommon, and the few that were used proved to be ineffectual at best.  Exhibition matches collaborate this, with very few Blood Sword users, and very few of those ones outside of FDC's Blood team being all that noteworthy.  Yeah, it's strong, but basically being 100% hit by everything in Arena v any team that can field decent DPS is going to make that HP Absorb mean nothing really fast.  The AI also doesn't know it can heal by using Attack on an enemy, so you can't really use the "Critical unit goes to full HP" argument because a Critical HP Unit with a Blood Sword will almost always run away instead of attacking.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 06:29:50 pmThe two whole other instances of Petrify, including Ancient Sword, do damage in addition to Petrifying, meaning its "deader than dead" bonus is just a "neat" little bonus. That just...seems wrong.

Alternately, Petrify also has the problem of meanings pretty much jack-shit if you can cure like Esuna and Stigma Magic does. It basically just becomes a worse version of Stop in that case.


Yeah, Petrify is high-risk, high-reward as far as KO statuses go.  That by itself is fine.  There needs to be high-risk, high-reward things in a game to entice players.  Which is what makes Ancient Sword and Local Quake, Ancient Sword takes your weapon slot and does inferior melee damage for the chance of a high-risk, high-reward KO your opponent might just laugh at, Local Quake does the same via Geomancy which is far cheaper but much more inconsistent to access.  Once upon a time, FDC wanted to remove Iron Boots, and I had to explain the same concept to him - high-risk, high-reward items are important because they help bad players learn better quality perception by trying them and failing to grasp how to use them, and because they reward players who do understand the intricacies of how to utilize their risk/reward and when with many victories.  In good hands, they ensure the metagame doesn't get stale by constantly throwing wild cards at the game, and in bad hands they become good learning tools for overcoming the newbie hump and helping them better understand item quality, both of which are highly important in a PVP game.  This is another reason I'm against "hand-holding" things like making the Platinum Sword not compatible with Two Hands despite the only reason to not make it so being that Lionheart is better with Two Hands - it doesn't help the newbie player learn, it just ferries them to the right answers without helping them learn why those answers are right, which in turn leaves us with a lesser quality of Arena players in general.


Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 06:29:50 pmbut Two Swords with Sleep Swords has the chance to backfire where as two Ancient Swords don't, so there's that as well.


"Backfire"?  You keep Sleep Sword in the top hand and a different Sword in the offhand, so you can Sleep and make the second swing at 3/2 damage.  You can do this with a second Sleep Sword too, you can proc Sleep on the already sleeping target, getting 3/2 on your second hit and re-Sleeping them.  It's not really a backfire when many times this is intentional and the superior way to use Two Swords with 1 or more Sleep Swords.  Not to say knocking the target unconscious and leaving them there is bad, but to call the other outcome a backfire is pretty much wrong.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 08:52:54 pm
(Okay, I'm back. You may commence booing.)

Too lazy to quote things right now. You want me to do that composite list, Raven?

In the meantime, I'll give laconic answers since I have a headache right now:


1. "Wretched Blade": Oh, right. In my haste, I was thinking of it from a purely elemental standpoint including self-absorption, but yeah, being able to use "Not-Grand Cross" with non-elemental weapons or with users that don't have to block Blind and/or absorb their own element would make it quite different. ("We" aren't letting it Blind like Grand Cross, right?)

I suppose it just needs a name now then. Unfortunately, all I can think of to suggest at present is "Southern Cross" since Celdia mentioned Tri-Ace earlier. Blame her and Celine.


2. Allowing Petrify as proc: Meh. I can't say I like it, but it's not like I'm final word on anything. The only things I'm really adamant about is Water getting more representation & absorption so as to not be complete shit, Carve Model not having Petrify, Hidden Knife losing -1 Sp and a few other things. Everything else I'm either like "this is fine (even if I may actually be apathetic to it)" or "I object (because of these possibly erroneous reasons)."

If other people are fine with Ancient Sword causing Petrify while being able to be used with Two Swords or Two Hands, then fine.


3. Blood Sword: Meh, I suppose. I know about the AI's Critical behavior, which is why I didn't bring it up since I know it won't attack unless it's right next to a unit already. Still don't like it, but as you say, it currently only goes so far. I still say that's more of a problem with Bloody Strings being slightly overpowered, but, again, "meh".


4. Double Sleep Sword "Backfiring": Oh, I was just being an idiot and for some reason thinking that Sleep would be applied before the damage that woke them up, especially since no one has ever used double Sleep Sword despite the fact I think it's been around since initial ARENA. Ignore me in this instance.


Now I remember that I still haven't thought about what to do with Sasuke Knife, even as low-priority as it is, or the three Harps, of which only Bloody Strings is currently worth using and raising WP further for the other two isn't really an option.

Poles and Bags also perhaps need some addressing, but other than that, I think every equipment category has been hit besides Spears and Cloths, which are both already more than fine/usable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on May 22, 2012, 09:17:58 pm
Humble request: Kill quickening. Kill it dead. Then stake it through its small dark heart, stuff holy vanilla waffers in its mouth, and then decapitate it, burn the remains, and throw them into the sun.

I... dislike... that particularly ability.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 09:39:00 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizRe: Wiznaibus - I'd rather further lower the %rate of Poison on Wiznaibus to 10% or 15% than remove Mime.  The entire point of this upgrade to Wiznaibus is to buff Miming teams.


I can get behind that.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizRe: Water 2 proc - Faith would be /interesting/, but Fire 2 already procs Oil, which does the same thing by doubling damage to every Element in the Wizard's skillset.


That is true.  Faith would be better than Oil in most cases, as well, as it isn't dispelled on hit.  The most benign universal ailment next to Oil, Slow, and Don't Move that comes to mind is Poison, but that's beginning to push it.  Is CT5Holy's suggestion about adding a chance of dispell to damage formulae possible?

EDIT: Question answered above.

Quote from: The Damned...if the Water spells really do end up all ignoring Reflect, then I'm really not sure they "need" anything.


The way I see it, each element group gets one "tradeoff," for lack of a better word, in addition to a status proc.  Fire trades damage for increased AoE, Ice JP affordability for MP cost, and Lightning MP cost for damage.  I am of the impression that the piercing of reflect would count towards water's tradeoff rather than its status proc, given that this feature will apply to all water spells.

Are we rolling with reflect-piercing as the feature now, anyway?  Reduced CT was also mentioned, which I think would make Water more useful in general, since the majority of units are not going to have a reflect status to pierce.  This also won't overshadow Dispel Magic's role in getting past Reflect.

Quote from: CT5HolyCherche and Setiemson were indeed +1 PA/MA, Initial: Protect/Shell at one point, and yeah, they weren't used.


I vaguely remembered that when I was typing my previous post, but was not sure enough to act on it.  The perfumes can stay in this case.  However, until there is some way to punish high Fury in spite of Protect, like Yin Yang Magic punishes high Faith in spite of Shell, I will remain wary about Warpath.

Quote from: The DamnedTEAR INTO PIECES!


You can recite Star Ocean 2 quotes, too?  I think I found my new best friend.

Quote from: FanaticKill quickening.


I agree with you here.  SP is the touchiest of stats.  Locking units into rigid SP tiers and balancing equipment and abilities accordingly is the easiest way to go.  That way you don't have to worry about the possibility of letting 20 SP chemists throw around items like candy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 23, 2012, 02:00:40 am
(Oh, fuck. I accidentally de-audio'd my computer while cleaning it up. Maybe some other things as well.... Anyway, this is going to delay things a bit slightly....)

I'd wait for Raven to respond to the composite list question normally, but in this instance I'm just going to assume "responsibility" for it given that I'm not doing anything else.

That said, since it was brought up the monster thread now, I figure I might as well ask it the more appropriate thread:

Make Undead immune to Crystal? Yay? Nay? Tropay? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReviveKillsZombie)

Quote from: Fanatic on May 22, 2012, 09:17:58 pm
Humble request: Kill quickening. Kill it dead. Then stake it through its small dark heart, stuff holy vanilla waffers in its mouth, and then decapitate it, burn the remains, and throw them into the sun.

I... dislike... that particularly ability.


I wholeheartedly agree.

Too bad I tried to get Quickening murdered as soon as it appeared months ago and it never took. Maybe other people will have more luck.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 09:39:00 pm
The way I see it, each element group gets one "tradeoff," for lack of a better word, in addition to a status proc.  Fire trades damage for increased AoE, Ice JP affordability for MP cost, and Lightning MP cost for damage.  I am of the impression that the piercing of reflect would count towards water's tradeoff rather than its status proc, given that this feature will apply to all water spells.

Are we rolling with reflect-piercing as the feature now, anyway?  Reduced CT was also mentioned, which I think would make Water more useful in general, since the majority of units are not going to have a reflect status to pierce.  This also won't overshadow Dispel Magic's role in getting past Reflect.


Yeah, people seem to be going for the Water spells Wizard is pretty much guaranteed to get at this point to bypass Reflect, if only because nothing else Black Magic has now does and people don't want Flare getting past Reflect. Of course, every time I say people, I mean "you (Gaignun), Raven, CT5Holy, Eternal and myself alongside a few posts by FFMaster and a few other assorted people". I don't know what, say, everyone that's currently participating in the AI tournament thinks about it, but they all have had the chance to say something (and continue to have a chance) and have said nothing about anything, so...shrug.

But, yeah, I guess that would be Water's "tradeoff" or special quality, independent of the easily implemented Dispel aspect of it. While I agree that Dispel Magic might be "overshadowed" by this, especially if Water 2 has a 20% chance to get rid of positive status, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Dispel Magic will still get rid of things other than Reflect at pretty much 100% unless the target has Innocent on. Similarly, Water ignoring Reflect (but not M-EV) will just be giving an option to get past Reflect, which literally every other mage has; very few of these Reflect-ignoring spells are direct damage, yes, but Black Magic pretty much doesn't do anything besides damage except Poison and Frog.

Alternately, I'd be willing to let Water's "schtick" be lowered CT and just have all the Tier 3 spells ignore Reflect but still be subject to M-EV. Double shrug.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 09:39:00 pmYou can recite Star Ocean 2 quotes, too?  I think I found my new best friend.


Been forever since I played the game (and didn't beat it), but quoting Claude is easy. Hardly remember much else.

His voice and whoring Earth...Ripper(?) was all I could do to try to forget Precis's voice.

*shudder*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on May 23, 2012, 03:49:42 pm
*dodges any and all attacks made that aren't heavy criticism*

Now then. I'll leave the decision making to those who know what they're doing. But.... I'll suggest a few ideas, see how they get taken. Or see if they get ignored, like I normally am.

Petrify:
Well, as a proc Petrify is devastating. Sure, it can be cured with a quick Stigma Magic/Soft, but it takes a turn to recover from it and if there's nobody to remove it, that unit is gone. So I'm curius to see what would be thought about borrowing from TO and making Petrify temporary, but still last a good while. I know it would then cut into Stop's usefullness, but when Stopped a unit can still be targeted, unlike Petrify.


Undead:
I agree with Eternal here. It would be made far more useful if an undead unit was guaranteed to get back up rather than having a chance to crystalize. Sure, they're easy to put down with a Raise 2 and such, but when the AI kills one and runs past them, with the undead rising back behind them and whacking at the exposed weaker units... Yeah. Still, undead needs that buff, otherwise it takes a specialized setup to avoid a Raise 2/Fire instakill.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 23, 2012, 03:58:13 pm
I do feel that the undead should have that kind of leverage because they are otherwise to vulnerable to a fire or a raise spell. no matter how hard hitting there area. sure reflect helps but seal evil and consecration (unless equipped with genji shield) can kill them instantly
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 23, 2012, 04:34:21 pm
Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on May 23, 2012, 05:03:43 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 23, 2012, 04:34:21 pm
Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.


Raven to the rescue. Seriously, that is an amazing idea, and it makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 23, 2012, 05:11:01 pm
(*facepalms*)

Hmmm...this reminds me I should probably post in the monster thread right after this...after I finish feeling like a gigantic moron; hey the self-deprecation is more than merited this time.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how I should "summarize" things, but I'll still try to do it since I'm not sure that's what Raven meant he was going to "reply" to.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 23, 2012, 04:34:21 pm
Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.


*headdesks repeatedly*

Ugh. It's been so fucking obvious this entire time, especially since I thought of blocking Crystal forever go. Why....

Oh, right. I got rid of Cursed Ring in Embargo for Undead-making armor that will probably die and I'm "buffing" Undead a bit despite it being a debuff. Right. Good job.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 01:53:10 am
Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 08:52:54 pm
(Okay, I'm back. You may commence booing.)

Too lazy to quote things right now. You want me to do that composite list, Raven?


No, I'll get to it.  Probably make a double-post immediately after this for it.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 08:52:54 pm("We" aren't letting it Blind like Grand Cross, right?)


No, as of now it would have no proc.  It is a pure Weapon Element DPS move.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 08:52:54 pmNow I remember that I still haven't thought about what to do with Sasuke Knife, even as low-priority as it is, or the three Harps, of which only Bloody Strings is currently worth using and raising WP further for the other two isn't really an option.


The other Harps really aren't bad either, the Bloody Strings likely does have a bit too much WP but Harps are so negligible I'd rather focus entirely on Swords and Katana currently and leave Harps for a separate update.  I have a quick and dirty means of getting Bags a bit better though, so I'll include it in the next amalgamation of shit.

Note that the amalgamation of shit will likely have no explanations for it since everything has already been explained, making that post much shorter and easier to sift through.  The few things I add in (such as my Bag quick-fix) will have explanations, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:35:00 am
Reformatted all the weapon areas to the setup I used in my Katana and Sword reboots since it's much cleaner than what FDC did.

Throwing Knife - 10 WP, 50% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, +1 Move, 33% Add: Death Sentence on Hit.
Dual Cutters - 7 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% Cast: Doubleshot on Hit.
Repel Knife - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% All or Nothing Add: Don't Act and Haste on Hit.
Mage Masher - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% Cast Bizen Boat on Hit.
Main Gauche - 10 WP, 40% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move.
Orichalcum - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 MA
Katar - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 PA
Air Knife - 13 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Wind Element, +1 Move, 25% Add: Sleep on Hit.

Only change here is that Main Gauche, Orichalcum, Katar, and Air Knife can be used with Two Hands.  This lets you be a bit derpy with them, but helps Katar quite a bit if you want a Knife that just kind of goes RAWR on something's face.  It's like a mini-Lionheart with a lower boost and weaker formula.  While this really doesn't boost anything other than the Katar and maybe Air Knife any, it's an explorable option that opens up more setups, which is good in my book.  Pain Knife also switched with what I consider to be a far cooler concept item.


Spell Edge - 11 WP, 5% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 MA, 50% Cast: Spell Absorb on Hit.


Phoenix Blade - 16 WP, 25% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, Always: Reraise, Slow. Immune: Haste, Undead.
Tactician Blade - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 Jump.
Parry Edge - 9 WP, 20% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Moonlight - 9 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33/50% Cast: Blade Beam on Hit.
Blood Sword - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Absorb HP on Hit.
Coral Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Water, 33% Cast: Water Ball on Hit.
Ancient Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Petrify on Hit.
Sleep Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Sleep on Hit.
Platinum Sword - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Shieldrender - 8 WP, 5% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 50% Cast Shield Break on Hit.
Ice Brand - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 20% Cast Ice 3 on Hit.
Rune Blade - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Lionheart - 11 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, PA +2.
Ultima Weapon - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33% Ultima.

Tri-Edge replaced with another concept weapon, the Phoenix Blade.  Huge WP, huge W-EV, Always: Reraise, Slow and immunity to Haste and Undead.  Basically, it lets you make a hulking monster of a unit that never dies, but moves at the pace of a snail even with full-on SPD gear.


All Knight Swords (+1 WP)


Asura Knife - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Fire Element, Strengthen: Fire.
Kotetsu Knife - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Dark Element, Strengthen: Dark.
Bizen Boat - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Silence on Hit.
Murasame - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Immune: Berserk, Heals HP on Hit.
Heaven's Cloud - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Wind Element, 50% Add: Slow on Hit.
Kiyomori - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Muramasa - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Faith on Hit.
Kikuichimoji - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Earth Element, 33% Cast: Quake on Hit.
Masamune - 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Initial: Haste, 50% Cast: Dispel Magic on Hit.
Chirijiraden - 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water.


Healing Staff - 11 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Holy, Heals HP on Hit.
Rainbow Staff - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Weak/Half: All Elements.


Blaze Gun - 13 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Fire 3 as Attack.
Glacier Gun - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Ice 3 as Attack.
Blast Gun 11 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Bolt 3 as Attack.


Bow Gun - 8 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Cast: Armor Break on Hit.
Silencer - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Add: Silence on Hit. (Replaces Cross Bow.)
Poison Bow - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Add: Poison on Hit.


Longbow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 8 Range.
Silver Bow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Holy Element, 20% Cast: Holy on Hit.
Ice Bow - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Ice Element, +2 MA, 25% Add: Stop on Hit.
Lightning Bow - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Lightning Element, +2 MA, 25% Add: Don't Act on Hit.
Windslash Bow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Wind Element, 20% Cast: Hurricane on Hit. (Hurricane's Hit Rate should become 100%, unlike the low hit rate it has naturally.)
Ultimus Bow - 16 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, +1 PA.


Battle Dict - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Add: Undead on Hit.
Monster Dict - 15 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Cast: Magic Ruin on Hit.
Papyrus Plate - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Cast: Flare on Hit.
Madlemgen - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Add: Stop on Hit.



C Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +2 MA.
FS Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +2 PA.
P Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Always: Regen.
H Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 SPD.

And a quick and dirty way to make Bags better.  Most anything worth using that boosts MA in the Weapon slot boosts it by 2 MA, so C Bag sees an upgrade. FS Bag sees an upgrade to match, considering it does almost no Attack damage itself.  H Bag (and in turn, Light Robe) lose the mostly pointless Weak: Dark debuff they have, to remove centralization around Dark and because neither item is good enough to need said debuff.  In addition, Bags become compatible with Two Hands and Two Swords.  While almost all the noteworthiness here goes to Two Swords combos (I can think of a few off the top of my head), the Two Hands compatibility is done for the sake of completeness, and the sake of allowing Samurai with purses to hit a bit harder.  Lol.  It's a quick and dirty fix, yes, but highly effective.


]Diamond Shield - 5% P-EV, 25% M-EV, Cancel: Earth, Holy.
Platina Shield - 25% P-EV, 5% M-EV, Cancel: Wind, Water.
Crystal Shield - 20% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Half/Weak: All Elements, +128 Jump. (+128 Jump makes the unit a Stepping Stone.)
Genji Shield - 10% P-EV, 5% M-EV, Immune: Dead, +1 PA.
Swift Plate - 5% P-EV, 5% M-EV, +1 SPD. (Replaces Venetian Shield.)

Added a minor buff to the already niche Crystal Shield because it's always been a cool concept to me and I was on a whim.


Gold Helmet - +110 HP, +0 MP, Immune: Frog, Don't Move, Sleep.
Genji Helmet - +120 HP, +0 MP, Initial: Berserk.



Light Robe - +75 HP, +50 MP, Always: Regen.

The follow-through of the H Bag edit.



Reflect Ring - +1 MA, Immune: Berserk, Initial: Reflect.
Defense Ring - Absorb: Water.
Cursed Ring - +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 SPD, Always: Undead, Absorb: Dark, Cancel: Holy, Weak: Fire, Immune: Crystal, Treasure.

Guess who made The Damned's day and shotgunned Water Absorb in somewhere to replace that useless 8/8 from before?


Jade Armlet - Immune: Stop, Petrify, Cancel: Ice.
N-Kai Armlet - Immune: Charm, Undead, Absorb: Dark.
Defense Armlet - Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act, Cancel: Fire.


Small Mantle - 10% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Cancel: Earth, Holy.
Wizard Mantle - 15% P-EV, 25% M-EV, Immune: Don't Act.
Leather Mantle - 20% P-EV, 30% M-EV.
Elf Mantle - 25% P-EV, 25% M-EV.
Feather Mantle - 30% P-EV, 20% M-EV.
Dracula Mantle 25% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Immune: Berserk.
Vanish Mantle 20% P-EV, 10% M-EV, Cancel: Wind, Water.



Remove: Cheer Up
Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste)
Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 20 MP, 100 JP)
Add: Caution (From Thief)
Add: Concentrate (400 JP)

Moved Caution from Thief over to Squire.  Caution and Awareness compete for the same role on the same slot of the character, so having them on the same class is a terrible idea.  Separating them gives both more chances to see use, since if a character is already using Steal or Basic Skill, they can grab the one already there and save JP, unlike before where you were basically always forced to open Thief, then Caution would mostly get ignored for the sake of Awareness since people seem to view Awareness as being better and you open the same class to get both anyway.


Antidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.
Chronos Tear - Cancel: Stop - 150 JP.



Remove: Dia
Remove: Iron Will
Remove: Magic Ward
Change: Nurse (Add: Regen on top of current effects.)
Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost)
Add: Iron Will (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP)
Add: Southern Cross (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)



Remove: Greased Bolt
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP)
Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3})


Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65)
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)



Remove: Reraise
Add: Dia (See old Paladin, JP cost up to 250.)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP. +1 Vert.
Shell, 50 JP. +1 Vert.
Raise 2, 300 JP.
Holy (Gains: Evadable)

Buffed Dia's JP cost to compensate for innately being in Priest's skillset, gave Protect and Shell +1 Vert.  Yay.



(+15 MAM) [Effective +1 MA]
Remove: Fire1
Remove: Ice1
Remove: Bolt1
Remove: Fire4
Remove: Ice4
Remove: Bolt4
Add: Fire 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost 18, Y is 7, rest is as Fire 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Ice 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 9, Y is 8, rest is as Ice 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Bolt 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 23, Y is 9, rest is as Bolt 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Water 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 21, Y is 8, rest is as Water 2, except no Proc.)
Change: Fire 2 (+20% Oil)
Change: Ice 2 (+20% Slow)
Change: Bolt 2 (+20% Don't Move)
Add: Water 2 (Same as Ice 2, except MP cost is 15, cannot be Reflected, 20% Cancel all Positive Status, Water Element.)
Add: Water 3 (Same as Ice 3, except MP cost is 27, cannot be Reflected, Water Element.)
[All Tiered Magic accepts M-EV, all Tiered Magic sans Water is Reflectable.]
Change: Poison (Y becomes 90, AoE +1, Vert +1)

Uniformed JP Costs for Tiered Magic:
[X] 2 Back, 150 JP.
[X] 2, 100 JP.
[X] 3, 150 JP.

You'll notice the X 2 Back spells are now slightly weaker than the X 2 spells in terms of DPS and cost more JP.  I ran numbers here - and while damage is seemingly identical to X 2 with X 2 Back, the X 2 Back spells are almost uniformly better because they hit both mages that mostly have 40 Brave anyway as well as tanky units meant to be 40/40, etc. Basically, they hit a far wider range of units while still hitting the things mages already hit hard.  Therefore, it seemed prudent to make their Y 1 less than X 2 and cost them higher in JP to make up for this huge upshot in utility.  Poison Y is lowered, but I only lowered it to 90 here after noticing it still takes M-EV.



Change: Haste (Vert +1)
Change: Slow (Vert +1)
Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2)
Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.


Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.
Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 20% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT)
Change: Lich (Change Y = 65, remove Darkness elemental.)



Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell)
Change: Speed Save (+25 CT.)



Blind, 100 JP.



(+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM, +1 Jump)  (Effective +~20 MP, +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 Jump)
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move
Change Local Quake to +Petrify
Change Quicksand to +Zombie
Change Pitfall to +Slow
Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep
Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act
Change Demon Fire to +Oil
Change Blizzard to +All or Nothing (simultaneous) Silence and Blind
Change Sandstorm to +Berserk



Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf)
Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, -1 Vert, Self)



Remove: Doku no Kyoukai
Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV)
Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects)
Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to High% Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act)



Maelstrom - F_MA*4 DMG, 6 CT, 255 Vert/Area, 15 MP, Water Element, 200 JP.  (Replaces Natural Selection.)
Bio 2, 200 JP.



Change: Life Song (+15% Regen, still heals HP.)
Change: Nameless Song (Change hit rate 40%, CT = 4, RandomAdd: Reraise, Protect, Shell)



Change: Wiznaibus (+15% Poison, still damages HP.)
Change: Nameless Dance (Change to RandomAdd: Darkness, Silence, Slow, Oil)


Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

Dead:
Cancel: Oil, Frog
No Longer Cancels: Regen, Poison.

Poison:
CT becomes 96.


Still can't remember what the two Gauntlets FDC, myself, and the others kicked around were to replace Genji Gauntlet and Power Wrist.  Eh, figure it out later.  I don't think I missed any changes here so far.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 am
(Hurray, an excuse to be lazy. Because I totally needed one of those.)

Very well then. I wasn't going to include explanations either, especially since this forum probably still wouldn't tell you when/if you hit the word limit. Explanations also would have to take into account the back and forth, at least in some sections, and that would make things even more problematic, especially for more open-ended things.

As for the other things, I suspected as much about "Not-Grand Cross"/"Southern Cross"; I just wanted to be sure as with Tier 3 Black Magic spells.

And, yeah, Harps can wait since they're all decent and exclusive. I was just pointing out how Bloody Strings' drain makes it so much better what would two otherwise good if not great weapons, especially since it's on a class that's not supposed to be attacking that regularly to begin with; maybe 33% isn't cutting either. But, yeah, not exactly a grand priority.

****

And, heh, you posted while I was typing. I guess I'll just reply to anything that's new-new:

1. Knives: Repel Knife's new. I rather like it, even if it will backfire hilariously on units that block Don't Act. I vaguely recall someone saying this disliked Two Hands on Knives, but I personally don't care.


2. Swords: I'm actually kinda morbidly curious to see how Phoenix Blade plays out. It should at least fair better than Salty Rage when it had Slow, though that's probably not saying much....


3. Bags: As much I'm still wary of innate Two Swords and (less, far less in this case) Two Hands, yeah, Bags needed this.


4. Shields: Good name to replace "Glitter Shield". Crystal Shield with will be interesting, if somewhat random. Still, it makes it slightly more usable and why not (besides slightly screwing over only maybe-happening monsters).


5. Rings: Hmmm...if by "make my day" you mean "give him reason to start kvetching again", then yes; not that I'm ever happy, though, so you have my thanks for trying. So does 108 Gems just not get anything at this point then? Also, while no one else commented on it, do we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?


6. Squire: Caution moving here is the first time that's been, right? Regardless, I agree with it, especially since Squire already has the (unused) Defend Support. Still wary of Concentrate, but meh. Can we please call "Alacrity" "Focus"? [/not a huge deal]


7. Chemist: I actually think we all agree, even myself as the "creator" of it, that Chronos Tear should only be 100 JP. Not that I'll lose sleep over it costing 150 JP since I loathe Chemist, but yeah.


8. Paladin: Daw, you named it "Southern Cross". Now I'll feel less horrible when I steal both abilities for Embargo. <3


9. Priests: While still wary of Dia, thank you for upping its JP cost. Also, yeah, like Haste and Slow, Protect and Shell needed the boost.


10. Wizard: Good to see someone has done the math; also that the whole "Water 1" or "Water 2 Back" to thing was made explicit. Also good to know we have confirmation of prices and Water ignoring Reflect. Why Y as 90 for Poison, though, when you had agreed that it was probably fine with Y being reduced all the way down to 75 like the less dangerous Don't Move?


I think you got everything aside from the brief talk about how Archer's Speed Save probably needs a bit of boost to -25 CT. I think there was something else too, but that's the only thing that comes to mind presently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: dacheat on May 24, 2012, 04:21:48 am
Quote from: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 09:39:00 pmI vaguely remembered that when I was typing my previous post, but was not sure enough to act on it.  The perfumes can stay in this case.  However, until there is some way to punish high Fury in spite of Protect, like Yin Yang Magic punishes high Faith in spite of Shell, I will remain wary about Warpath.


Why don't you make snipe a counter to Protect? It seems like Aim: Arm, Leg, and all of the breaks would lend themselves well to getting hit % boosts on high-fury opponents.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 04:25:08 am
Raven left it at 90 because Poison is M-Evadable.

I'm still pushing for Speed Save to +30 CT.

Repel Knife looks cool.

Phoenix Blade... another interesting concept, but Always: Slow is just so crippling. Not to mention that Always: Reraise doesn't matter when everyone's dead. =P
I'm willing to keep it around for a bit - it'll be fun to try to experiment with, maybe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz*Wizard changes*


We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizPoison Y is lowered, but I only lowered it to 90 here after noticing it still takes M-EV.


Don't Move takes M-EV, too.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz*Summoner changes*


You probably forgot to mention this, but the CT>4 summons are going to need some buffs to make up for the M-EV nerf.  How's this?

Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)

Salamander and Leviathan get 20% procs that mirror Black Magic (because I'm feeling unoriginal) and a damage boost so that they aren't laughably bad, Titan gets a damage boost so that Quake doesn't trump it, and Cyclops gets its CT reduced to keep par with the new Titan.  (I don't think +20% Blind is worth both 10 extra MP and 1 extra CT.)

Quote from: The Damneddo we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?


I'd rather add resistance to Oil over Silence, since nothing blocks Oil at present.  What do people think about giving Defense Ring immunity to Oil, Sleep, and Dead? (See the edit below.)

Also, I'd prefer to rename Defense Ring and Defense Armlet to something that elicits the concept of their newly nulled elements.  Coral Ring is on the drawing board.  Do we have any others?

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizOil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)


I know we didn't (and most likely never will) conclude our discussion about Holy/Dark.  You raised good points before.  It seems we are arguing for different things, though.  Let me attempt to summarise our stances.  You wish to include Holy/Dark to give more power to the player.  Your explanation was clear.  I wish to exclude Holy/Dark, however, to give more power to the designer.  I tried to do this by showing how accessible the Holy skill would become for 1HKOs.  Black Magic will become able to 1HKO, as well, but only if the Black Magic wielder has high MA in general.  This is fine.  On the other hand, even the tankiest of White Magic users (res bots, status bots, and so on) will be able to 1HKO with Holy.

I guess what this boils down to is that I want the White Magic skill set, which is already useful and widely used, to be incompatible with the Oil buff.  If you want to 1HKO with Oil, you need to be built as a DPS machine; support tanks are excluded.  By giving skill sets access to only elements we exclude from Oil, we designers can make this exclusion possible.  The same thing applies to Demi 2 pending a buff.  White Magic DPS machines will still be able to 1HKO with Holy in spite of the buff.  I don't have a problem with that, especially since Holy is now taking M-EV.  That Holy/Dark elemental weapons also lose out on Oil synergies is an unfortunate casualty, but a casualty I'm willing to accept.  I don't have much more to say about this, so if you, and possibly others, are still unconvinced, then go ahead and let Oil apply to all elements.

EDIT: On second thought, would anyone mind adding an additional Absorb: Earth to Defense Ring and simply scrapping Berserk immunity in exchange?  "Gaia Ring" would be a fitting name for this accessory.  At two elements apiece, this Gaia Ring would be comparable to the current Magic Ring.  Furthermore, Gaia Ring's Earth, like Magic Ring's Holy, is one of the elements the "big three" clothes (Black Costume, Santa Outfit, and Rubber Costume) do not absorb.  Oil immunity could shift to 108 Gems in this case.  That 108 Gems also has Undead immunity, which subsequently makes stocking Holy Water unnecessary for its wearers, is harmonious to design.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on May 24, 2012, 08:13:23 am
My $0.02:

Chronos Tear: Could probably stand to gain Cancel: Slow as well.

Silencer: Please rename this. Mageslayer should do.

Alacrity: Yes, Focus would be a better name.



Black Magic: *cringes at Black Magic names* Can't we just have Tier 1, Tier 2, and -Back magic? =x

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 24, 2012, 09:47:15 am
I like -a, -aga nomenclature. Also, that's a fun word, isn't it? Nomenclature. =)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pm
Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 am1. Knives: Repel Knife's new. I rather like it, even if it will backfire hilariously on units that block Don't Act. I vaguely recall someone saying this disliked Two Hands on Knives, but I personally don't care.


All or Nothing on Repel Knife means if either Haste or Don't Act is not able to be applied, the proc (should) fail, unless my memory is very bad.  As for not liking Two Hands on Knives, the ones not usable with Two Swords are basically short swords in the form of Daggers anyway, no reason you'd not be able to double-grip them.  Not that I care much of flavor and did the Two Hands stuff from a mechanical standpoint.

Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 amSwords: I'm actually kinda morbidly curious to see how Phoenix Blade plays out. It should at least fair better than Salty Rage when it had Slow, though that's probably not saying much...


The big difference between Salty Rage and Phoenix Blade is that you get to keep all your evasion (and Phoenix Blade has 25% W-EV), still do good DPS, still can use Shields, are immune to Undead, and have properly functioning AI that will use abilities / etc. instead of Berserk AI.  You also still get to keep your Accessory slot open, which often provides far more important buffs than your Weapon slot does.  So yes, it should fare much better than that old version of Salty Rage, I hope.

Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 amAlso, while no one else commented on it, do we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?


The number of accessories that block Berserk are intentionally higher than normal because Berserk cannot be easily cured.  Undead protection being added to Accessories was done for a similar reason - both are very crippling when used as debuffs and only the Item skillset can heal them, so in turn more options for immunity should exist so that you're not automatically locked into "Bring Item or Bust" to deal with these statuses.

Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 amI think you got everything aside from the brief talk about how Archer's Speed Save probably needs a bit of boost to -25 CT. I think there was something else too, but that's the only thing that comes to mind presently.


I filed that under Thief because I was half asleep.  Would fix it, but effort.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."


Maybe I'm alone here, but I find there to be quite a charm to the numbered tiers.  Sticking to the 2 and 3 tiers was also kind of intentional thatisthejoke.jpg.

Not opposed to new names, but they should be good if we're gonna get fancy.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amDon't Move takes M-EV, too.


Don't Move is also the better status in any situation where the enemy isn't already Critical and also has a AoE boost.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amChange: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)


Bah, I forgot about this shit entirely.  I'll mess with it later.  I'm too half asleep to hammer out ideas right now.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amThat Holy/Dark elemental weapons also lose out on Oil synergies is an unfortunate casualty, but a casualty I'm willing to accept.  I don't have much more to say about this, so if you, and possibly others, are still unconvinced, then go ahead and let Oil apply to all elements.


You get it pretty clearly, but there is a far simpler solution than yours that gives us both what we want - Holy can simply be a non-Elemental attack, if defensive Oil users prove to be such a big issue.  We both get what we want this way, and almost nothing is lost, because Holy being Holy Element is basically irrelevant to everything.  All it'd need is the Y to be buffed to compensate for a lack of compatibility with Golden Hairpin and it's still the exact same spell as far as application goes.  You shouldn't punish many synergies for the synergy of the lone skill.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amEDIT:


I can mess with this stuff, yes.  Get something good going.  It will probably keep the Berserk immunity regardless for reasons I mentioned to The Damned, but an Absorb: Earth accessory could easily be made a thing.  We have the room and enough Accessories that would probably love the buff.  Not sure if Defense Ring should get the Earth Absorb, since unlike Magic Ring, Earth Absorb is actually relevant to things and Water Absorb will now be too, but something can get it and thoughts have been noted.

Expect stuff thrown at things with stuff and things when I am more awake.



And yes Eternal, we can make Chronos Tear stop Slow if you like.  It doesn't really matter either way.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 06:19:44 pm
(I swear, every time I think I actually improve this computer....)

Ugh. I still can't remember what I feel like I'm forgetting. So now it's going to nag me all day even though I just woke up three ago after staying up all morning again. Hurray.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."


Meh. For now, I think that Black Magic can keep its crappy names just because it's difficult enough to keep up with the changes as it is. Maybe after stuff is implemented and "we" see it's actually effective "we" can go for "funner" names to vary them. Considering "we" just nuked Tier 1 and Tier 4 and added Tier 2.5, I think we've got enough numerical confusion.

Speaking of which, why are "we" calling the Back spells "2 Back"? Can't "we" just omit the 2 and call them "Back"?

(I'm starting to feel like I'm using the Royal We because of how I keep putting that word in quotations.)

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
You probably forgot to mention this, but the CT>4 summons are going to need some buffs to make up for the M-EV nerf.  How's this?

Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)

Salamander and Leviathan get 20% procs that mirror Black Magic (because I'm feeling unoriginal) and a damage boost so that they aren't laughably bad, Titan gets a damage boost so that Quake doesn't trump it, and Cyclops gets its CT reduced to keep par with the new Titan.  (I don't think +20% Blind is worth both 10 extra MP and 1 extra CT.)


I wasn't really thinking of Summon Magic, so that's not it.

That said, I can agree with all of these, though Cyclops is a bit iffy given how long Blind lasts and how Holy is generally less guarded (at least with Magic Ring currently overshadowed by Reflect Ring). I can't agree with Salamander if Oil boosts Holy or Dark, though, due to reasons that I comment on just below.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amI'd rather add resistance to Oil over Silence, since nothing blocks Oil at present.  What do people think about giving Defense Ring immunity to Oil, Sleep, and Dead? (See the edit below.)

Also, I'd prefer to rename Defense Ring and Defense Armlet to something that elicits the concept of their newly nulled elements.  Coral Ring is on the drawing board.  Do we have any others?

EDIT: On second thought, would anyone mind adding an additional Absorb: Earth to Defense Ring and simply scrapping Berserk immunity in exchange?  "Gaia Ring" would be a fitting name for this accessory.  At two elements apiece, this Gaia Ring would be comparable to the current Magic Ring.  Furthermore, Gaia Ring's Earth, like Magic Ring's Holy, is one of the elements the "big three" clothes (Black Costume, Santa Outfit, and Rubber Costume) do not absorb.  Oil immunity could shift to 108 Gems in this case.  That 108 Gems also has Undead immunity, which subsequently makes stocking Holy Water unnecessary for its wearers, is harmonious to design.


Oh, right. Something does rather need to block Oil. I suppose I just forgot because I had assumed that Coral Ring was getting in and that took care of both Absorb: Water and Block: Oil. I think I also got distracted because, while Blocking Berserk is important given its unfortunately still infinite duration, I do feel that something else needs to Block: Silence accessory-wise.

As for your proposals, I'll do a short list here:

1. Current Defense Ring becoming "Block: Oil, Sleep & Dead": Ironically, I kinda want to argue against this for part of the exact same reason that Defense Ring probably wasn't used: these statuses don't really have anything to do with each other. Oil and Dead would only even be on the same set due to upcoming changes to Black Magic(k) and Summon Magic(k). While it may be an improvement over how incredibly niche Defense Ring was despite how dangerous at least two of its status blocks were, since that was obviously meant to be an anti-Mediator ring, it also still doesn't change the fact that Defense Ring would be one of the few accessories that continues to actively do nothing.


2. Renaming Defense Ring and Defense Armlet: I'm not entirely sure that's necessary, at least in Defense Armlet's case. I guess "we" could rename Defense Ring "Coral Ring" just because Raven wants it to Absorb Water now, but to me Coral Ring does more than that and blocking Berserk, Sleep and Dead don't exactly fit the "theme" of coral. Also, why wouldn't "we" be renaming Jade Armlet too if that's the case?


3. Gaia Ring: What exactly would Gaia Ring end up doing then? Absorbing Earth & Water and Blocking Sleep & Death Sentence? Or is it Blocking Sleep and Dead? Regardless, I'm not exactly sure that making it comparable to Magic Ring is something to be desired. As I've said repeatedly, due to the monopoly on blocking Silence that Magic Ring has (and will apparently go back to having), pretty much any element it ends up blocking/absorbing instantly becomes shit since like half of all magic users (and Talk Skill users) will always end up absorbing it (even with Robes of Lords around).

While Gaia Ring wouldn't have this monopolized problem, I'd rather not chance screwing two of the already lesser used elements, especially if Wind is going to get screwed over again; this even though it would have fierce competition what with the other accessories that block Sleep or Dead both having Initial: Reraise. It doesn't exactly help that outside of the new Black Magic, the relatively few instances of Water and Earth are all otherwise on the same sets of Geomancy, Lore and Summon Magic; I guess Ninjutsu is also exempt, if only because Earth doesn't appear there at all. So, at present, I'd rather not have something else absorb two elements when I'm still not comfortable with Magic Ring doing it.


4. 108 Gems blocking Oil: I'd be fine with this, but wouldn't that mean it would block four statuses in addition to also Strengthening All elements? While I don't exactly have a problem with that and while its blocking of Blood Suck needs to go die in a fire (or a running body of water), I just want to be sure.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
I know we didn't (and most likely never will) conclude our discussion about Holy/Dark.  You raised good points before.  It seems we are arguing for different things, though. 

*Hakan interrupts*


No, I also agree with this. It also helps that I think that if we're going to be able to tell if Demi 2 gets legitimately improved--that's what I was forgetting that Raven didn't mention--in and itself, then it kinda needs to not become an instant death machine via Oil.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm also cautious about allowing the already stronger elements simply because all instances of Oil sans Nameless Dance also do (probably significant) amounts of damage by themselves; doesn't help that Priest is getting even better being offensive by getting Dia. Of course, that might not be a problem due to the aforementioned Magic Ring "problem".


Quote from: Eternal248 on May 24, 2012, 08:13:23 am
My $0.02:

Chronos Tear: Could probably stand to gain Cancel: Slow as well.

Silencer: Please rename this. Mageslayer should do.

Alacrity: Yes, Focus would be a better name.


I'm going to feel even more of an asshole than usual for saying this considering you're agreeing with the Alacrity-renaming, but I can't say I really agree with the other two things:


1. Chronos Tear curing Slow as well: Eh, I'm already rather iffy about Chemists being able to affect temporal changes; I only suggested that because it's necessary evil and a lesser evil than letting Esuna or Stigma Magic also cure Stop. Enough people carry Haste that getting rid of Slow isn't usually a big deal, though that's arguably an argument for letting it cure Slow as well. I'd kinda want to make Chronos Tear 150 JP again if it also cured Slow, though I'm not exactly sure if that's fair or just my hatred talking. Still, it would be nice for Chemist to not be able to cure some decidedly negative status aside from Charm and Death Sentence even if all it does is heal shit; if it didn't cure stuff at instant speed, then I would doubtless have much less of a problem with it. But, yeah, I guess "we" could let Chronos Tear cure Slow as well. I'm just...hesitant to do so.


2. Silencer vs. Mageslayer: I actually have to disagree more actively here. I think that "Silencer" fits with the projectile-nature of the weapon given the whole gun allusion in the name. "Mageslayer" also feels way too close to "Mage Masher" in name, even if it is more serious sounding than the canon knife's name. Regardless, "Silencer" is fine even if a bit on the nose; it's still far less on the nose than just calling the weapon "Cross Bow" again.


My feelings about Black Magic namse are already the first thing in the post after I start quoting.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmAll or Nothing on Repel Knife means if either Haste or Don't Act is not able to be applied, the proc (should) fail, unless my memory is very bad.  As for not liking Two Hands on Knives, the ones not usable with Two Swords are basically short swords in the form of Daggers anyway, no reason you'd not be able to double-grip them.  Not that I care much of flavor and did the Two Hands stuff from a mechanical standpoint.


Not that I think I have a stellar memory either, but I'm pretty sure that All or Nothing means either it will attempt to add all statuses at once or that nothing happens at all. That's a bit different from trying to add everything, but failing because one aspect is blocked, which I'm pretty sure is not what happens considering how Random and Separate work in comparison. I could be wrong though since it's been forever since I've been able to test anything.

As for the Two Handed Knives being "short swords", sure, why not. As I said (with that typo) above, I don't personally care. I just vaguely recall a person or two bemoaning how silly it would be.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmThe big difference between Salty Rage and Phoenix Blade is that you get to keep all your evasion (and Phoenix Blade has 25% W-EV), still do good DPS, still can use Shields, are immune to Undead, and have properly functioning AI that will use abilities / etc. instead of Berserk AI.  You also still get to keep your Accessory slot open, which often provides far more important buffs than your Weapon slot does.  So yes, it should fare much better than that old version of Salty Rage, I hope.


Oh, I'm aware of that. Please note that I said "Salty Rage when it had Slow", which is basically "Salty Rage when it was utter shit and unusable", hence why comparing anything to it favorably isn't necessarily saying much.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmThe number of accessories that block Berserk are intentionally higher than normal because Berserk cannot be easily cured.  Undead protection being added to Accessories was done for a similar reason - both are very crippling when used as debuffs and only the Item skillset can heal them, so in turn more options for immunity should exist so that you're not automatically locked into "Bring Item or Bust" to deal with these statuses.


Heal cures Berserk. It's just very few people use Basic Skill despite it being actually kinda decent and when they do, almost no one ever uses Heal. I can understand Block: Berserk being on quite a few things, especially due to its infinite duration. I was more arguing, as I explained in my reply to Gaignun above, that we kinda need another Accessory to block Silence unless we want Wind and Holy elements to become utterly rubbish again.

As for Undead, yeah, something else probably needs to heal that beyond the seldom used Holy Water, but given how much more difficult it is to apply than Berserk and that a good amount of equipment already blocks it, I'm not sure it's that large of a priority. It also doesn't help Esuna and Stigma Magic really don't need to help more things, though maybe if they cured slightly different things....

(Oh, this reminds me about the whole Esuna and Stigma Magic not curing Charm thing. I'm not sure where "we" stand on that.)

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmI filed that under Thief because I was half asleep.  Would fix it, but effort.


Wasn't there when I checked Thief while typing, but okay. Not a huge deal anyway.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmDon't Move is also the better status in any situation where the enemy isn't already Critical and also has a AoE boost.


Please explain, especially in the light that Poison lasts beyond death.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmYou get it pretty clearly, but there is a far simpler solution than yours that gives us both what we want - Holy can simply be a non-Elemental attack, if defensive Oil users prove to be such a big issue.  We both get what we want this way, and almost nothing is lost, because Holy being Holy Element is basically irrelevant to everything.  All it'd need is the Y to be buffed to compensate for a lack of compatibility with Golden Hairpin and it's still the exact same spell as far as application goes.  You shouldn't punish many synergies for the synergy of the lone skill.


Holy not being Holy element would be...odd to say the least, though I guess we can always rename it. Still, that seems like it would make Priests even better at attacking (not-Oily, not-Undead units), which doesn't seem like something they need.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmI can mess with this stuff, yes.  Get something good going.  It will probably keep the Berserk immunity regardless for reasons I mentioned to The Damned, but an Absorb: Earth accessory could easily be made a thing.  We have the room and enough Accessories that would probably love the buff.  Not sure if Defense Ring should get the Earth Absorb, since unlike Magic Ring, Earth Absorb is actually relevant to things and Water Absorb will now be too, but something can get it and thoughts have been noted.


If "we" are looking for space for an Earth Absorb accessory, then can't we just use Diamond Armlet's space? That thing pretty much never sees use despite being theoretically decent between boosting both stats a bit and blocking something as crippling as Slow. It's only going to continue to not see use since no one has mentioned wanting to change it thus far outside myself IIRC, especially if "we" let Chronos Tear cure Slow as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pm
Damned:
Heal doesn't cure Berserk anymore. It cures Charm instead.
Esuna and Stigma Magic do cure Charm, you clearly either haven't been paying attention or made a big typo.
Don't Move means several things can happen:
1. Unit can't retreat -> stays in range to get hit by stuff
2. Unit is melee, and now can't move around to hit people
3. Unit is itembot without throw item, and can't move to use items
4. There are plenty more, I'm sure, and it's all better than Poison.
5. Oh hey, remember Standstill? Yeah. Wouldn't work nearly the same if I gave them Poison Bow, would it? =P

Also, I'm against Chronos Tear removing Slow. I mean yeah, Slow's pretty darn powerful, but there's plenty of Hastes going around (maybe a bit less with Masamune nerf), and it just doesn't feel necessary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dokurider on May 24, 2012, 08:12:04 pm
So Kageshooters are getting the nerf via WP drop? Nice.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 10:40:06 pm
(...Some people seriously didn't notice the Kagesougi thing? Wasn't that like the very first thing brought up? I guess I can't blame people. Well, I mean, I can, but....)

Oh, okay. So I finally remembered the other thing that was nagging me: my Ribbons proposal about nerfing Ribbon a bit and buffing up Barette and Cachusha a lot so that there's actually reason to use them over Ribbon (even if only Monks can use them at present).

I'll have to see what page I made that on, partly because now I have another, related proposal....

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pm
Damned:
Heal doesn't cure Berserk anymore. It cures Charm instead.


Well I'm an idiot for not noticing that. How surprising.

When did that change? And more importantly, why? Seriously, Salty Rage lacked Slow before I left last year and I vaguely recall Heal still healing Berserk back then even after Esuna & Stigma Magic did.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pm
Esuna and Stigma Magic do cure Charm, you clearly either haven't been paying attention or made a big typo.


Uh, neither despite how shitty that post was when I initially pressed Enter.

I was referring to how I proposed that Esuna and Stigma Magic no longer cure Charm given that whenever a unit with either of those very common abilities gets Charmed, they pretty much always cure themselves of Charm. Kinda makes Charm somewhat pointless a lot of the time, especially since those abilities heal enough shit.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pmDon't Move means several things can happen:

1. Unit can't retreat -> stays in range to get hit by stuff
2. Unit is melee, and now can't move around to hit people
3. Unit is itembot without throw item, and can't move to use items
4. There are plenty more, I'm sure, and it's all better than Poison.
5. Oh hey, remember Standstill? Yeah. Wouldn't work nearly the same if I gave them Poison Bow, would it? =P


I'm aware of all of this. It doesn't really do anything to answer what I actually asked, especially since you're not Raven, about how Don't Move is more dangerous than a Poison that lasts beyond death. However, I might as well respond to these:


1. Units usually don't retreat unless they're either in Critical or Charging a spell/ability or healing themselves anyway. In the Critical case, Don't Move is less crippling if the Critical unit has no way to heal itself since then it probably dies where it's forced to stand. It can thus be revived rather than running away from the fight and likely being useless to the team unless it has Dance or Sing (or Quickening or Accumulate). In the Charging case, the unit that's afflicted with Don't Move can still dodge, while the Charging unit can't.


2. And? Melee units needing to get in range should be something that Don't Move can be used against and not be "punished" for. Seriously, the only status that melee/physical units in particular have to worry about at present is Blind; I'm not counting Don't Act or Stop or the other KO statuses here because those affect everyone equally. Gods forbid that melee units actually have to take precautions against the almost entirely unused Don't Move to make sure they don't screwed by range issues. I mean, why should they when long-distance physical units have to worry about Projectile Guard alongside Blind and mages have to worry about Silence, Berserk, Reflect and running out of MP. It's not like there's half a dozen pieces of equipment that block Don't Move either. So obviously it wouldn't be fair....

Heavy sarcasm aside, your second point also ignores that many, if not most, melee-weapon wielding classes have distance techniques built into their primary skill set. The only exception is really Paladin and that's only because it's losing Dia, which granted it could never abuse nearly as well as mage classes. Even in Paladin's case, though, it still gets a way to heal itself while damaging its enemies while (or even if) it gets wailed on via Grand Cross. This in addition to being tied for the second most HP amount of all classes.


3. Again, this is a bad thing? Given that Chemists have 100% accuracy with all of their skills and they have freaking Bandage, this point is extremely lame at best, pun intended.

Even if Bandage isn't something they have or even if it didn't exist, it's utter hyperbole to say that they can't use Items at all like if they were Don't Acted. It's more that they can't use Items on others...if they're not within 4 range, which is pretty damn far, or in Direct "line of sight". At worst, they can still Potion themselves until Don't Move wears if they're getting wailed on, which is hardly as crippling as you're implying. If we discourage obnoxious, ill-thought "Itembots", then that's basically an argument in favor of Don't Move needing to become stronger so those POS become far less prevalent.


4. There are plenty more what? I seriously don't understand this tautological sentence that doesn't actually say anything.


5. This is an erroneous argument for several reasons. Standstill was so abusive because a) Concentrate was around initially when it was created and even when it wasn't b) the Hunting Bows still did good damage on top of c) inflicting Don't Move at 100% and d) not be dependent upon MP or not being Silenced or Berserked to do so. So it's not even remotely the same.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not asking that Don't Move/Immobilize be buffed beyond Y = 75 or get around be subject to M-EV or even Reflect. I just don't see how the hell it's "more dangerous" than something it a) lasts 76 clockticks less than and b) that isn't dispelled by death like Don't Move is. Hence why I was asking Raven why he said that.

If his arguments are the same as yours, then so be it. I obviously won't agree with them, but at least I'll know. I'm still curious as to why he said that though given that you've actually managed to convince me even more that Don't Move is not more dangerous than Poison.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pmAlso, I'm against Chronos Tear removing Slow. I mean yeah, Slow's pretty darn powerful, but there's plenty of Hastes going around (maybe a bit less with Masamune nerf), and it just doesn't feel necessary.


We can at least agree on something in this post, though at this point I'm already rather apathetic as to whether Chronos Tear cures Slow or not.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 10:59:42 pm
Quote from: The DamnedI can't agree with Salamander if Oil boosts Holy or Dark...


In comparison to "Fire 2", Salamander would offer +1 AoE at the cost of +8 MP, +2 CT, and +50 JP.  Oil aside, I think this is a fair price.

Quote from: The Damned4. 108 Gems blocking Oil: I'd be fine with this, but wouldn't that mean it would block four statuses in addition to also Strengthening All elements? While I don't exactly have a problem with that and while its blocking of Blood Suck needs to go die in a fire (or a running body of water), I just want to be sure.


That's right.  Oil immunity would replace the idle Blood Suck immunity.  Strengthening all elements is fine and all, but under the current trend to power up all accessories, it's a pricey use of an accessory slot.  Players are already using weapons, shields, and armor to strengthen elements whenever possible.  Now that we are buffing mantles and keeping perfumes around, I predict that players will go on doing this.  The Oil immunity is a tiny, but significant buff.

Alternatively, we can "reinvent" Defense Ring and Diamond Armlet to something like:

Coral Ring: Absorb: Water, Immune: Poison, Oil, Frog
Gaia Ring: Absorb: Earth, Immune: Berserk, Sleep, Dead

The Coral Ring becomes an imperfect "anti-wizard" accessory, and the Gaia Ring inherits the Defense Ring's role as the "anti-mediator" accessory.  (I changed Death Sentence immunity to Death immunity above, since Death immunity implies Death Sentence immunity; it makes the accessory a little more useful.)  Both accessories have absorption on the side so that teams can do something else with them when they're not up against the relevant job.  We might want to find Diamond Armlet's now-homeless Slow immunity a new piece of equipment in this case.

Quote from: Eternal248Chronos Tear: Could probably stand to gain Cancel: Slow as well.


I agree: Cancel: Stop and Cancel: Slow go well together as Time Magic counters.  I share The Damned's hesitation on this one, though.  In my case, I frown upon giving people reason to set Chronos Tear's JP cost higher than 100. I want people to be drawn to Chronos Tear for its ability to cure Stop and Stop alone.  Given how Haste is still around, players might not be willing to spend extra JP to cure an ailment they already can with a routine buff.  It's like an ISP insisting on bundling cable with internet for a customer who watches TV online.  It doesn't matter how much money you'll save on bundled cable; you're only interested in internet.  The fact that you are paying any money at all for a service you don't need makes the deal less attractive.

Anyway, if we can keep Chronos Tear's JP cost at 100, then I don't mind if it also cures Slow.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on May 24, 2012, 11:13:39 pm
In the IRC, it was decided by FFMaster to call the Back abilities after those of Malak's skills in WotL.

IE:
Nether Fire
Nether Bolt
Nether Ice
Nether Water
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on May 24, 2012, 11:14:52 pm
I actually like the coral and gaia ring idea. those would actually help out so many item bot tanks like palys and lancers who are fitted for those roles (at least using gaia ring)

and for the coral ring another good idea imo. helps again with at least the more annoying status effects. it'll help with the creativity among the new inspiring teams
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 11:52:56 pm
Damned:

Charm doesn't need to be any more painful than it already is. So what if it's pretty underwhelming if you Charm someone who can get rid of it - it's still a wasted turn, and it can cancel a charge, which is very relevant even if the Charmed unit doesn't end up hurting its own team.

1. And if the unit does run away and you can't kill it, there's a good chance it'll get healed up by its teammates and be back in the fight. Don't Move keeps the unit there so you can finish it off, and also keeps the resser around to get hit by AoE. Dead units also don't get turns.
Now, Raise 2 does mean the unit will be back at full HP and likely immediately able to do something, but the resser being nearby to get hit with AoE damage is still relevant.

2. Exactly - Don't Move punishes melee units because now they can't move to hit their targets.
Yes, although these units do have ranged attacks in their skillset, they won't always have them (ex. for Monks, Stigma Magic, Chakra, and Revive are priorities), but more importantly, because they can't move, they have less effective range. Could be very important to prevent them from sniping a critical unit and what not.

3. Instead of being able to heal/revive/cure status from a more important unit, they're stuck wasting a turn removing Don't Move (assuming them have Bandage), and then will most likely run away from the unit that needs healing/revival/status cleansed. That's not good for that team.

4. There are plenty more situations of Don't Move being a bigger problem than Poison. Like keeping a unit stuck in place so it'll get hit by an AoE spell or something. There. Yet another situation. And I'm sure there are still more.

5. Um, I think it's very relevant because it clearly shows why Don't Move is more dangerous than Poison. I suppose it's an extreme example, but still.
Also, the Hunting Bows never did good damage. Enough to anti-sandbag, really.

Poison isn't particularly threatening because it only does a bit of damage at a very slow rate. It might kill someone in critical, if they don't get healed up. Yes, it will be more interesting since it persists after death in the next update, but it only hurts Reraise, PD, and Wish. Also, as someone else mentioned before, units afflicted with poison still have a turn to heal themselves up.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on May 25, 2012, 12:53:33 am
(I'd lying if I said I wanted to get into an argument right now, but so be it. I'll look for the Ribbon stuff later.)

Since this is all status-related stuff, I'll just use three points here rather than responding to those five with regards to Don't Move again:

1. Charm: Charm eating up a turn is "something" I suppose and it's like I'm going to argue that Charm isn't extremely dangerous otherwise, but at the same time, it kinda obviates the point of even having Block Charm gear given how ubiquitous those techniques are. This seems even more true when Charm is easily cured by basically any type of damage no matter how small, including the soon-to-be-buffed Poison. I don't think it's asking for much for at least one of them to not cure Charm and maybe even cure Undead so that they can differ a bit. They already heal a ton of stuff, which was more the point (that adds insult to injury) rather than the fact they cure Charm or the miscommunication that I don't think Charm is dangerous; I just don't think it should be cured by the very person it's been inflicted upon.


2. Poison: I never said Poison was all that great as it was now. Even lasting infinitely long, it never saw much use. That's because a) it was primarily on a crappy Skill Set and b) it did damage slowly over time, but was cancelled upon death, so it was basically an inferior form of Death Sentence. Even now, though, at least some people have been using Kiyomori (if only because it also Blinds) and it's not like Shuriken hasn't seen use specifically to Poison people on top its minimal damn. Considering that both those things are changing and that Poison lasting beyond death will screw over more than just those three things, Poison is hardly going to be as weak still; it might potentially be quite the opposite considering even more things are going to be adding it now and how the Critical AI acts, meaning it might very easily impact every form of resurrection save for the Raise spells, which hardly needed more help.

(Speaking of those three things, it's kinda another thing bugs me: you honestly can't say that Wish anything but collateral damage because, honestly, you can't say with a straight-face that Wish needs to be weaker.)

Regardless, I'm comparing (Time Mage's) Don't Move to what Poison is becoming, not how Poison currently is. Even what little use Time Mage's Don't Move has ever seen in ARENA, yeah, Don't Move would of course still stronger be than current Poison.


3. Don't Move: "Enough to anti-sandbag" isn't "good" damage on single-target, simple physical attack? I'm not sure what is then considering quite a few solo-hitting things can't anti-sandbag. It's not like all teams have (damaging) AoE or that their AoE goes off and hits more than one unit, even if there is a unit that's trying to revive another; the only revival that's really vulnerable to AoE is Revive since more often than not, Item-Bots use Throw Item if they're not a Chemist.

As for three other points, isn't a negative status supposed to inconvenient those it hits? Isn't that problem with Poison at present? That the AI generally doesn't have to give a damn it's been Poisoned? So what if an Item-Bot wastes a turn healing itself of Don't Move and it's not good for that Item-Bot's team? As a negative status, it's not supposed to be.

Seriously, I know you're trying to argue Don't Move is "more dangerous" than Poison, but you seem to be doing solely along the lines of current Poison and pseudo-blaming Don't Move doing exactly what it supposed to do to be actually threatening. Much like Charm, I never said Don't Move is toothless; it shouldn't be. I just didn't see it as more dangerous than what Poison is potentially becoming, as time will tell, and I still don't.


Quote from: Reks on May 24, 2012, 11:13:39 pm
In the IRC, it was decided by FFMaster to call the Back abilities after those of Malak's skills in WotL.

IE:
Nether Fire
Nether Bolt
Nether Ice
Nether Water


Oh, I see. I'm more than fine with this.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 10:59:42 pm
In comparison to "Fire 2", Salamander would offer +1 AoE at the cost of +8 MP, +2 CT, and +50 JP.  Oil aside, I think this is a fair price.

That's right.  Oil immunity would replace the idle Blood Suck immunity.  Strengthening all elements is fine and all, but under the current trend to power up all accessories, it's a pricey use of an accessory slot.  Players are already using weapons, shields, and armor to strengthen elements whenever possible.  Now that we are buffing mantles and keeping perfumes around, I predict that players will go on doing this.  The Oil immunity is a tiny, but significant buff.

Alternatively, we can "reinvent" Defense Ring and Diamond Armlet to something like:

Coral Ring: Absorb: Water, Immune: Poison, Oil, Frog
Gaia Ring: Absorb: Earth, Immune: Berserk, Sleep, Dead

The Coral Ring becomes an imperfect "anti-wizard" accessory, and the Gaia Ring inherits the Defense Ring's role as the "anti-mediator" accessory.  (I changed Death Sentence immunity to Death immunity above, since Death immunity implies Death Sentence immunity; it makes the accessory a little more useful.)  Both accessories have absorption on the side so that teams can do something else with them when they're not up against the relevant job.  We might want to find Diamond Armlet's now-homeless Slow immunity a new piece of equipment in this case.


I'll be laconic here just because my eyes are starting to hurt even with the walk I went on.

1. Salamander: You have a point.


2. 108 Gems: I'm fine with it still Strengthening All Elements if blocks four things since that honestly hasn't helped it before now.


3. Coral Ring and Gaia Ring: I'm fine those, though perhaps Coral Ring should block Slow instead of Poison or Oil if 108 Gems also blocks Poison, Oil and Frog. They both block all three, but it's just an option, especially since it keeps its "Anti-Wizard" theme since Ice 2 potentially adds Slow now.


4. What to do with Block Slow otherwise: Well, given Raven said something about having thought what to do with the Gauntlets, the only things that are really left that could "take it" are Sprint Shoes (& Sasuke Knife), which would make sense, and Salty Rage (& Genji Helmet), which would make them more desirable. You could go with both, actually, since it's kinda toss-up, or neither, since I'm sure that something else could sensibly block Slow. I wonder if we'll ever get any accessory that blocks Faith or Innocent, though those aren't pressing concerns with the raising need to block Poison and Oil.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on May 25, 2012, 01:13:59 am
Damned, I think you're misinterpreting me. Like I don't understand the 'pseudo-blaming Don't Move for doing its job' part. I think that I am indeed showing why Don't Move is worse than Poison for the very reasons that you're pointing out. Don't Move is very much inconveniencing the other team. It inconveniences them much more than Poison does. We both seem to agree about this.

I also do note how I think things might be different with new Poison, and I still stand by that Don't Move is more threatening. I could also be very wrong here, but hey. Time will tell.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 01, 2012, 06:46:55 am
Here are a few more proposals:

1. Reduce the JP cost of Critical Quick from 350 to 300.  It's overpriced to begin with.  Speed Save is getting a mild buff, so this skill should be made more attractive to keep in step.

2. Reduce Demi's MP cost from 20 to 12.  Tier 2 Wizard spells routinely do more than 33% HP damage, cost half as much JP, cost less MP, and have an easier time going through M-EV.  At 33% damage, mages are going to keep on keeping their distance from Demi, but low-MA jobs that typically don't have huge MP pools might come forward.

3. Change Demi 2's MP cost from 40 to 24, damage from 66% to 50%, and Y value from 65 to 75.  The current Demi 2 is way too expensive for its low hit rate.  The lower MP cost and higher Y value intend to make Demi 2 usable, as well as give players another sorely-needed reason to consider equipping a mantle (which we are incidentally buffing) instead of Setiemson by default.  Damage is reduced in compensation.

Proposals 2 and 3 here, in concert with the proposal for Lich on the previous page, are designed to transfer power from Setiemson's auto-shell to mantles' and shields' M-EV. 

4. Increase Asura's Q value from 6 to 7.  This makes it worth the 200 JP price tag it shares with Koutetsu and Heaven's Cloud.

5. Make Punch Art's damage formulae linear.  This removes the requirement to stack PA to to deal appreciable damage.  Stated another way, this allows we designers to make Punch Art more accessible without having to worry about damage being pushed too high at the extreme.  This is best visualised in the form of a plot:

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9864/punchartspinfist.jpg)(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2/punchartwavefist.jpg)

Spin Fist's formula is 11*PA.  Wave Fist's is 13*PA.  The current and proposed curves are equal at 22 PA in both cases.  The Q values could even be lower.

The maximum attainable effective PA in the next patch will be 29.  This puts Wave Fist well into into 1HKO territory.  This will only be exacerbated with Warpath.  By making the formulae linear, we clip off this high-PA region, where only Monks reside, and buff the low-PA region, where everyone else resides, and viola: Spin Fist, Repeating Fist, Wave Fist, and Earth Slash become useful to more than one class.  Not only will making the formulae linear help us avoid 1HKO shenanigans, but also place less of an emphasis on stacking PA to begin with.  You calculus buffs out there should readily know that the dependent variable is present in the first derivative of a quadratic formula.  Here that means that your damage bonus gets higher for every additional PA you stack.  On the other hand, the first derivative of a linear formula is constant, so there is no such incentive to stack PA.  Hence, players will find it easier to equip items other than Bracers and so on when making DPS Punch Art units.  (Most will probably move on to Cherche, but that says more about Cherche than the linear formulae.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on June 01, 2012, 02:52:53 pm
I agree with Gaignun on Critical Quick being lowered to 300. Not often do you see a critical quick being used because of JP cap. And I would like to see a team (besides Celdia) that can use critical quick effectively.

No complaints if Demi and Demi 2's MP cost is lowered with slightly higher hit rate. (I still think Golden Hairpin plays a good role there) Also back to 50% sounds more fair than 66%

Asura I guess could use a bit of a perk from MA*6 to 7. But definitely keep it enemy only

Just one question about Punch Art Gaignun: Are you saying that you don't necessarily need Martial Arts to do better Punch Art damage where Spin Fist is PA*11 or something like that?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 01, 2012, 04:27:40 pm
Quote from: Barren on June 01, 2012, 02:52:53 pmJust one question about Punch Art Gaignun: Are you saying that you don't necessarily need Martial Arts to do better Punch Art damage where Spin Fist is PA*11 or something like that?


Well, Martial Arts will still give you better damage.  Its damage bonus will simply become linear, leading to a weaker need for it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on June 01, 2012, 05:30:33 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 01, 2012, 04:27:40 pm
Well, Martial Arts will still give you better damage.  Its damage bonus will simply become linear, leading to a weaker need for it.


I see so it'll go hand in hand regardless what you choose.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on June 01, 2012, 06:03:28 pm
Random idea I had for either one or two shields as alternates to Setiemson and Cherche, or one shield with both and a debuff to balance it

Protect Targe- Always: Protect
Shell Shield- Always: Shell

Or them mixed:
Barrier (or Wall) Shield- Always: Protect, Shell -Initial: Don't Act or Slow
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on June 01, 2012, 06:21:11 pm
It can replace Platina Shield since really no one actually uses it
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 01, 2012, 07:21:43 pm
I have no problems with anything Gaignun proposed, though I really need to re-accumulate changes again and reply to something I'm sure I haven't.  I've just had lots of RL issues and not enough time.  I'm also for making Punch Art no longer be quadratic - nothing else is, and while it makes Punch Art "unique", it polarizes it as Gaignun also mentioned.  Fists were made PA*9 for the same reason, so Punch Art skills can be given proper Ys instead too, personally.  Though Monks only cap at 28 PA, not 29.  It makes a noticeable difference in damage so it's worth mentioning.  They previously capped at 27 PA.  Remember Martial Arts rounds down, not up, and they still can only use 1 FS Bag if they want the Martial Arts bonus.

As for what Reks mentioned, I can't support that at all.  An Initial: X debuff is basically a worthless debuff if you tried to make it one item, and honestly, Shields are intentionally not that "good."  They let you absorb an element or gain a stat point or some other random thing but it's rarely very high-powered, so the things that Reks mentioned would not fit the role of a Shield at all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 01, 2012, 10:15:45 pm
I'm also going to go with a "no" for the protect/shell shields.  Protect trumps P-EV 9 times out of 10, and it's going to get even better when Concentrate enters the scene.  A protect shield will overshadow the rest.  Likewise for the shell shield.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on June 01, 2012, 10:28:36 pm
Well, I understand why it'd be a bad idea now, but I forgot to mention to put that because of Protect/and or Shell, the shield would have no evasion to them
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 02, 2012, 12:07:22 pm
And guess what, people would still run the Protect/Shell shields over the others, even with no evasion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on June 02, 2012, 03:17:13 pm
Right. It made sense in my head before, plus it would have given more of a use to Shield Break. But i'm just being unhelpful. Hrm......


Nope, can't think of anything else I've noticed that Master Raven, Gaignun, and CT5 have already gotten covered. Now just to wait for this to cement and mess with the new stuff.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on June 02, 2012, 03:26:25 pm
Yes sorry Reks but even I know that they usually know what they're talking about when it comes to re-balancing equips and such
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Reks on June 02, 2012, 03:29:55 pm
I did post fully expecting to get shot down, and so I did.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 08, 2012, 09:29:09 pm
Gaignun here with a few more numbers to bore everyone with.

I foresee Black Magic's Nether tier being underwhelming.  In comparison to the "new" tier 1 spells, Nether spells cost +50 JP, +50% MP (except Bolt; did you mean 25 MP for Nether Bolt, Raven?) and do not have a status proc.  For this price, the tier gets to use its targets' low Brave against them, which, as Raven pointed out, maximises its damage against a wider variety of units.  I would like to argue that this feature is not worth the price.  Bear with me here.

With +1 Y, Fire, Ice, and Bolt will always deal more damage if the target has more than 56, 58, and 59 Faith, respectively.  These are pretty standard Faith values for teams that rely on magic for healing.  (Well, more like ~50-55 faith, but whatever.)  In other words, Fire, Ice, and Bolt are generally good investments in spite of whatever Brave value the targets may have.  Bear in mind that Nether spells break even at these Faith values in terms of damage alone.  The two spell types do not break even on all fronts: Nether spells are still more expensive to learn and cast and cannot inflict status ailments.  At progressively lower Faith values, the Nether spells begin to make up for this cost.  In their most favourable case (40 Brave 40 Faith), Nether Fire, Ice, and Bolt deal +22.5%, +24.4%, and +26.0% damage, respectively (around +1.4-2.1 HP damage per XA).  I believe its added cost is worth it at only this extreme - this makes the Nether tier pretty niche.  Start adding either Brave or Faith, and players will begin choosing Tier 1 over Nether.  Add in the facts that 40 Br/Fa targets are relatively rare as of late, that Brave and Faith can only increase in battle, and that Tier 1 can at least inflict a status ailment if all else fails, and it becomes easy to see how Tier 1 is the better investment.

My message here is that these added costs make the Nether tier too weak in its own right.  Indeed, its damage is maximised against a wider variety of units, but this damage still tends to be the smaller of the two.  Its cost spoils its utility.  Here are three suggestions for making the two tiers more competitive:

1. Remove its Y penalty.  In this case, one may claim that the Nether tier's damage is not only maximised, but also higher on a wider variety of units than Tier 1. The cost of this added utility is higher MP and JP costs and lack of a status proc.  This seems fair.  Its wide applicability should not be overstated, however.   Tier 1 still has its status procs and cheaper MP cost, making it the better choice at equal damage (eg. against the quintessential 40 Br/70 Fa mage,) and it becomes absolutely better the moment targets raise their Faith beyond 70.

2. Drop its CT from 3 to 2, which would lure players toward it for speed of casting, if not for niche team counters.

3. Drop its JP cost from 150 to 100.  This is the weakest of the three suggestions.  The Nether tier will still have its niche application, but players will at least have an easier time adding it "on the side" lest they encounter derpy 40 Br/40 Fa teams.

My vote is for suggestion #1.

Moving on, Ultima can use a buff, can't it?  If we're going to entice players to put Basic Skill on an MA-based unit, we need to do it with more than Faith-independent damage.  For that there's already Draw Out.  Boosting its power might not be the best way about it.  Would removing its Charge Time or slashing its MP cost in half upset anyone?

Quote from: Reks on June 02, 2012, 03:17:13 pm
Right. It made sense in my head before, plus it would have given more of a use to Shield Break. But i'm just being unhelpful. Hrm......


New suggestions are never unhelpful!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 09, 2012, 10:24:24 am
1. As Gaignun said, hearing new ideas is always good.
2. Numbers aren't boring! :D
3. Taking a quick look through recent teams, it seems like 40 Brave isn't as common as I thought, so I'm fine with suggestion #1.
4. Removing Ultima's charge time is asking for trouble. There would be little risk in running a max damage setup because the Ultima caster would be 5-6 panels away.
Halving its MP cost and having its JP cost cut from 350 to 300 seems good enough. Maybe CT down to 4 as well, but certainly at least the first two. We don't need to drastically buff Ultima because of its high damage potential.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on June 09, 2012, 10:32:35 am
Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone tried Ultima on Wizards/Scholars yet?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: TrueLight on June 09, 2012, 11:05:54 am
Quote from: Eternal248 on June 09, 2012, 10:32:35 am
Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone tried Ultima on Wizards/Scholars yet?


One of my past teams (I think it was Merciless Embrace) had a Wizard with Ultima. The damage was moderate considering that my Wizard had 15 MA, but I was running Short Charge instead of Magic Attack UP so the damage wasn't very lethal (135 damage per Ultima). Overall, 30 MP was not worth the spell  :| If I remember correctly, there was another team that had Bards with Ultima, but I don't remember how well they did in battle.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 09, 2012, 02:19:25 pm
Apologies for lack of re-summarizing everything lately, in the middle of a move.  Gearing up for a 3 day Greyhound bus ride in a couple days.  Fun.  :U

Gaignun, what you just summarized is more or less the point of Nether tier - it fills a role.  It pierces enemy 40/40 Tanks (something only Ninjitsu does currently) with ease, while often still being good against enemy Mages because it operates of UnBrave and not UnFaith.  The point is not to do more damage for more MP costs the way normal tiered magic does - you pay more MP for more utility, without having to leave your primary offensive skillset.  Yes, it does less damage than an equivalent Tier 2 against an enemy 40/70 Wizard from your own 40/70 Wizard than your own Fire 2.  That's not why you bring Nether skills.  You bring Nether skills because they still do very good damage (1 XA less) to those units, while hitting many units you are normally completely impotent against, such as Innocent Ninjitsu users. 40/40 tanks, etc.

You're comparing Nether Fire to Fire 2 (etc) in a situation where Fire 2 is better by design and saying Nether Fire is underwhelming without looking at many of the fairly common situations where Nether Fire is vastly superior.  Yes, against high-Faith targets, the non-Nether skills are meant to do superior damage so that you're required to bring one of each to maximize DPS, or can choose to do slightly lower DPS against enemy Wizards/etc and rely solely on Nether tiers to save more JP for other things while maintaining a wider offensive range and notably, only need to themselves run 40 Faith and win a Wizard v Wizard encounter where the enemy has no Nether skills with ease.

You're vastly underselling the utility here and expecting skills you can slap on and be one-and-done from what I'm reading, and my reply is that that's not the point of these skills.

However, lowering the JP cost to match the low-tier magic is fine to me, I did probably over-nerf with the JP penalty, but a skill that will still hit for good damage and basically undoes the entire weakness of the Wizard against everything that's not 70/40 cannot be undersold, and honestly cannot be made "equal" to a mainstream spell.  Nether spells bring a lot to the table and you're too busy talking about how they're (very intentionally) inferior to non-Nether skills in raw numbers to consider how they affect the class mechanically or the kinds of units they suddenly make Wizards go from shitty to really good against.

...Jesus Christ, all this bolding makes me feel like The Damned.  I need a bath. :V
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Celdia on June 09, 2012, 02:34:50 pm
That's not enough bold for that, Raven.

Apologies for lack of re-summarizing everything lately, in the middle of a move.  Gearing up for a 3 day Greyhound bus ride in a couple days.  Fun.  :U

Gaignun, what you just summarized is more or less the point of Nether tier - it fills a role.  It pierces enemy 40/40 Tanks (something only Ninjitsu does currently) with ease, while often still being good against enemy Mages because it operates of UnBrave and not UnFaith.  The point is not to do more damage for more MP costs the way normal tiered magic does - you pay more MP for more utility, without having to leave your primary offensive skillset.  Yes, it does less damage than an equivalent Tier 2 against an enemy 40/70 Wizard from your own 40/70 Wizard than your own Fire 2.  That's not why you bring Nether skills.  You bring Nether skills because they still do very good damage (1 XA less) to those units, while hitting many units you are normally completely impotent against, such as Innocent Ninjitsu users. 40/40 tanks, etc.

You're comparing Nether Fire to Fire 2 (etc) in a situation where Fire 2 is better by design and saying Nether Fire is underwhelming without looking at many of the fairly common situations where Nether Fire is vastly superior.  Yes, against high-Faith targets, the non-Nether skills are meant to do superior damage so that you're required to bring one of each to maximize DPS, or can choose to do slightly lower DPS against enemy Wizards/etc and rely solely on Nether tiers to save more JP for other things while maintaining a wider offensive range and notably, only need to themselves run 40 Faith and win a Wizard v Wizard encounter where the enemy has no Nether skills with ease.

You're vastly underselling the utility here and expecting skills you can slap on and be one-and-done from what I'm reading, and my reply is that that's not the point of these skills.

However, lowering the JP cost to match the low-tier magic is fine to me, I did probably over-nerf with the JP penalty, but a skill that will still hit for good damage and basically undoes the entire weakness of the Wizard against everything that's not 70/40 cannot be undersold, and honestly cannot be made "equal" to a mainstream spell.  Nether spells bring a lot to the table and you're too busy talking about how they're (very intentionally) inferior to non-Nether skills in raw numbers to consider how they affect the class mechanically or the kinds of units they suddenly make Wizards go from shitty to really good against.

...Jesus Christ, all this bolding makes me feel like The Damned.  I need a bath. :V

THAT'S enough bold. :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dokurider on June 09, 2012, 03:58:24 pm
Me? I just put things I want emphasized in -dashes- nowadays.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 09, 2012, 06:27:12 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 09, 2012, 02:19:25 pmYou bring Nether skills because they still do very good damage (1 XA less) to those units, while hitting many units you are normally completely impotent against, such as Innocent Ninjitsu users. 40/40 tanks, etc.


I don't think there is an "et cetera" here.  Flash Hat at 40/40 tanks are the only ones.  If you want to keep the Nether tier as a niche tier, then we should indeed lower the JP cost of its spells to 100 so players don't ignore it.  I simply want to see the tier being used.

I'm throwing together an alpha version of my next team builder and am coming across some interesting gear combinations.  Here's one:

====================
Thief
Free secondary
Abandon
Two Hands
War Path

Lionheart

Twist Headband
Power Sleeve
Feather Mantle
====================

Hit modifiers
P: 38%
M: 70%

Damage (target brave: [40,70])
At 70 Brave: [259,363]
At 100 Brave (ie. after 10 turns): [334,467])

Are we comfortable with this kind of stuff?  The thief is going to be a physical-damage magnet with 100 Brave and low (284) HP, yet is going to be dodging attacks left and right with its high P-EV.  (Look to my S5 Wizard to see how stupid the AI is about this.)  30% M-EV and low faith is going to shut down any mage who dares to get around this high P-EV with magic long enough to 1HKO it, its 40 Brave be damned.

The problem here is War Path.  It takes a setup that is perfectly fine on its own and blows it out of proportion.  Pointing out how players give up the passive HP regen of Move-HP UP in exchange falls flat for me.  I don't have a problem with Move-HP UP.  It gives what I can take away: HP.  I can't take away Brave, though, and if I don't have either a Stone Gun or Concentrate to get around that P-EV, it's going to permanently count against me.  Given how delicious 0 MP, 0 CT, neutral-element 1HKOs on a 4 Move, 10 SP unit is going to be, I'll be damned if I enter a tournament without either.

In summary, I don't think the repercussions of War Path have been carefully thought out.  If it's not the 1HKOs that's going to break things, it's going to be the AI baiting, for which Concentrate or Guns are the only counters.  This takes me back to my long-term petition for the implementation of Brave-based status magic, which will allow players to punish high Brave in ways other than damage, just as they can high Faith.

Now for some less controversial proposals:

1. Rename Tactician Blade as Scout's Blade.  Makes sense, given how the Tactician Blade has more to do with mobility than tactics.

2. Rename Parry Edge as Épée.  En garde!  I deflect your feeble lunge and riposte for 20 points!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 09, 2012, 07:07:27 pm
Scout's Blade works and I'm indifferent, Épée wouldn't work because I'm pretty sure the correct characters don't exist in FFT.  (Specifically, those fancy Es, so you'd just have Epee.)

I didn't reply to it before, but I'm also all for Ultima being reduced to 3 CT and 20 MP cost.  For the most part it's still an inferior Chirijiraden with range but it should at least be good enough to use, which is really what a lot of the Squire class is - stuff that's not quite the best but passably usable and highly varied.

Also your evasion math there is a bit flawed.  It only accounts for frontal attacks, when the majority of physical attacks against a unit (especially with high move) will be from the side, where only the Feather Mantle can take effect, where you get hit about 50-60% of the time for what's likely a guaranteed oneshot when at maximum power.  This setup also still falls to Ninjitsu or many other common tactics in the same way many other paper units fall.  It also has the big problem of needing to last 10 turns without getting blown to shit before even hitting  peak power, meaning you're at risk of simply getting fragged faster by an aggro enemy team that hits hard from the very start.  It's a DPS evasion bot, something Samurais have already been able to do with more evasion and more HP for a long time now.  The 10 SPD is the only potentially worrying aspect, but I can pull a huge chunk of damage from the very start of the fight by just using an Attack UP Samurai with Asura Knife.  (11 *1.25 * 1.34 * 2 * 10, or 320 pre-Fury if you use a Feather Mantle which will give more evasion, or if you just wanna go big or go home, 13*1.25*1.34*2*10 for 400 pre-Fury with a Bracer.  The obvious difference here is that a Samurai is slow as fucking dirt but can take a hit while your Thief is faster but will die to a stiff breeze.)  Yeah, Warpath / Holy March put the match on a timer one way or another - either the user will win with big damage over time or will fold and die.  The damage jump you're getting though could also be simulated through a mere few uses of Accumulate though given the amount of multipliers stacked around, though my Samurai counter-example would gain from that far more far more quickly.

Tl;dr it's a unit that hits hard but dies to a stiff breeze, Arena has tons of those.  I could always dock another WP off Lionheart without hurting much, though.  My point is there's already big 1-range damage setups that aren't really used much (even before this update!), so I'm not seeing what's so special on one that gets bigger on a timer.  Warpath / Holy March could be reduced to +2 to increase the length of the timer to 15 turns, I guess, though that still feels highly underwhelming.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 09, 2012, 07:44:25 pm
Epee works, too.  I'm sure it's been used without the accents in RPGs before.  Rapier would be the next closest thing.

Side and back evasion are 46% and 51%, respectively.  Units are rarely hit from the back.  Either way, the hit chance is still low, giving the unit the opportunity to weather quite a few stiff breezes.  The build is no more susceptible to Ninjutsu than any other.  Ninjutsu has that 30% M-EV going against it, too.  Faith doesn't need to be at 40, either.

10 turns transpire quickly.  On most maps, the thief will get around 2 before engagement, and even if the thief's evasion fails him and he hits the floor afterward, he's not going to stay down.  Toss a Raise spell his way and he's good to play his hand with the RNG once more.  Every attack he dodges takes pressure off his other team members, giving them room to support him or mount offense of their own.

Asura's damage is fine.  Its wielder is, as you said, a sluggish Samurai.  The samurai also needs to equip a Bracer to achieve the same damage, giving up that pivotal 45/30 A-EV and leaving the Samurai exposed to all manner of offense.  On top of that, Asura is Fire elemental, making Black Costumes and White Robes a simple counter.  This is a build you can prepare for in multiple ways, so I am comfortable with it.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 09, 2012, 08:53:08 pm
I have some time, so let's see if I can catch everyone's shit in this one.  I'm busy so I might've missed something, but I think I covered everything adequately.  I shotgunned a couple things to get everything to fit but I think it works well and covers everything that's been brought up so far.

Throwing Knife - 10 WP, 50% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, +1 Move, 33% Add: Death Sentence on Hit.
Dual Cutters - 7 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% Cast: Doubleshot on Hit.
Repel Knife - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% All or Nothing Add: Don't Act and Haste on Hit.
Mage Masher - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% Cast Bizen Boat on Hit.
Platina Dagger - 4 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% Cast Climhazzard on Hit.
Main Gauche - 10 WP, 40% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move.
Orichalcum - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 MA
Katar - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 PA
Air Knife - 13 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Wind Element, +1 Move, 25% Add: Sleep on Hit.

Only change here is that Main Gauche, Orichalcum, Katar, and Air Knife can be used with Two Hands.  This lets you be a bit derpy with them, but helps Katar quite a bit if you want a Knife that just kind of goes RAWR on something's face.  It's like a mini-Lionheart with a lower boost and weaker formula.  While this really doesn't boost anything other than the Katar and maybe Air Knife any, it's an explorable option that opens up more setups, which is good in my book.  Pain Knife also switched with what I consider to be a far cooler concept item.


Spell Edge - 11 WP, 5% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 MA, 50% Cast: Spell Absorb on Hit.


Phoenix Blade - 16 WP, 25% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, Always: Reraise, Slow. Immune: Dead, Undead, Haste, Death Sentence.
Tactician Blade - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 Jump.
Parry Edge - 9 WP, 20% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Moonlight - 9 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33/50% Cast: Blade Beam on Hit.
Blood Sword - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Absorb HP on Hit.
Coral Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Water, 33% Cast: Water Ball on Hit.
Ancient Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Petrify on Hit.
Sleep Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Sleep on Hit.
Platinum Sword - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Shieldrender - 8 WP, 5% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 50% Cast Shield Break on Hit.
Ice Brand - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 20% Cast Ice 3 on Hit.
Rune Blade - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Lionheart - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, PA +2.
Ultima Weapon - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33% Ultima.

Lionheart WP reduced by 1.



Defender - 16 WP, 40% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, Immune: Don't Act.
Save the Queen - 15 WP, 25% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, Initial: Protect.
Excalibur - 13 WP, 20% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, Holy Element, Strengthen: Holy.
Ragnarok - 15 WP, 25% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, Initial: Shell.
Chaos Blade - 17 WP, 20% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 100% Cancel: Protect, Shell, Haste. Reflect, Reraise on Hit.


Asura Knife - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Fire Element, Strengthen: Fire.
Kotetsu Knife - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Dark Element, Strengthen: Dark.
Bizen Boat - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Silence on Hit.
Murasame - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Immune: Berserk, Heals HP on Hit.
Heaven's Cloud - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Wind Element, 50% Add: Slow on Hit.
Kiyomori - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Muramasa - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Faith on Hit.
Kikuichimoji - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Earth Element, 33% Cast: Quake on Hit.
Masamune - 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Initial: Haste, 50% Cast: Dispel Magic on Hit.
Chirijiraden - 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water.


Healing Staff - 11 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Holy, Heals HP on Hit.
Rainbow Staff - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Weak/Half: All Elements.


Blaze Gun - 13 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Fire 3 as Attack.
Glacier Gun - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Ice 3 as Attack.
Blast Gun 11 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Bolt 3 as Attack.


Bow Gun - 8 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Cast: Armor Break on Hit.
Silencer - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Add: Silence on Hit. (Replaces Cross Bow.)
Poison Bow - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Add: Poison on Hit.


Longbow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 8 Range.
Silver Bow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Holy Element, 20% Cast: Holy on Hit.
Ice Bow - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Ice Element, +2 MA, 25% Add: Stop on Hit.
Lightning Bow - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Lightning Element, +2 MA, 25% Add: Don't Act on Hit.
Windslash Bow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Wind Element, 20% Cast: Hurricane on Hit. (Hurricane's Hit Rate should become 100%, unlike the low hit rate it has naturally.)
Ultimus Bow - 16 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, +1 PA.


Battle Dict - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Add: Undead on Hit.
Monster Dict - 15 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Cast: Magic Ruin on Hit.
Papyrus Plate - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Cast: Flare on Hit.
Madlemgen - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Add: Stop on Hit.



C Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +2 MA.
FS Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +2 PA.
P Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Always: Regen.
H Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 SPD.

And a quick and dirty way to make Bags better.  Most anything worth using that boosts MA in the Weapon slot boosts it by 2 MA, so C Bag sees an upgrade. FS Bag sees an upgrade to match, considering it does almost no Attack damage itself.  H Bag (and in turn, Light Robe) lose the mostly pointless Weak: Dark debuff they have, to remove centralization around Dark and because neither item is good enough to need said debuff.  In addition, Bags become compatible with Two Hands and Two Swords.  While almost all the noteworthiness here goes to Two Swords combos (I can think of a few off the top of my head), the Two Hands compatibility is done for the sake of completeness, and the sake of allowing Samurai with purses to hit a bit harder.  Lol.  It's a quick and dirty fix, yes, but highly effective.


Ice Shield - 20% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Absorb: Ice, Weak: Fire.
Flame Shield - 15% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Absorb: Fire, Weak: Ice.
Diamond Shield - 5% P-EV, 25% M-EV, Cancel: Earth, Holy.
Platina Shield - 25% P-EV, 5% M-EV, Cancel: Wind, Water.
Crystal Shield - 20% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Half/Weak: All Elements, +128 Jump. (+128 Jump makes the unit a Stepping Stone.)
Genji Shield - 10% P-EV, 5% M-EV, Immune: Dead, +1 PA.
Swift Plate - 5% P-EV, 5% M-EV, +1 SPD. (Replaces Venetian Shield.)

Added a minor buff to the already niche Crystal Shield because it's always been a cool concept to me and I was on a whim.


Gold Helmet - +110 HP, +0 MP, Immune: Frog, Don't Move, Sleep.
Genji Helmet - +120 HP, +0 MP, Initial: Berserk.



Light Robe - +75 HP, +50 MP, Always: Regen.

The follow-through of the H Bag edit.



Reflect Ring - +1 MA, Immune: Berserk, Initial: Reflect.
Defense Ring - Cancel: Dead, Berserk, Silence, Sleep, Death Sentence, Absorb: Water.
Cursed Ring - +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 SPD, Always: Undead, Absorb: Dark, Cancel: Holy, Weak: Fire, Immune: Crystal, Treasure.

Guess who made The Damned's day and shotgunned Water Absorb in somewhere to replace that useless 8/8 from before?


Diamond Armlet - +1 PA, +1 MA, Immune: Slow, Oil, Absorb: Earth.
Jade Armlet - Immune: Stop, Petrify, Cancel: Ice.
108 Gems - Immune: Undead, Oil, Frog, Poison, Strengthen: All Elements.
N-Kai Armlet - Immune: Charm, Undead, Absorb: Dark.
Defense Armlet - Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act, Cancel: Fire.


Small Mantle - 10% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Cancel: Earth, Holy.
Wizard Mantle - 15% P-EV, 25% M-EV, Immune: Don't Act.
Leather Mantle - 20% P-EV, 30% M-EV.
Elf Mantle - 25% P-EV, 25% M-EV.
Feather Mantle - 30% P-EV, 20% M-EV.
Dracula Mantle 25% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Immune: Berserk.
Vanish Mantle 20% P-EV, 10% M-EV, Cancel: Wind, Water.



Remove: Cheer Up
Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste)
Change: Ultima (20 MP, 3 CT, 300 JP)
Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 20 MP, 100 JP)
Add: Caution (From Thief)
Add: Concentrate (400 JP).


Antidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.
Chronos Tear - Cancel: Stop - 100 JP.

Reduced Chronos Tear to 100 JP, left off the ability to remove Slow to make Slow a bit better as a status.



Remove: Dia
Remove: Iron Will
Remove: Magic Ward
Change: Nurse (Add: Regen on top of current effects.)
Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost)
Add: Iron Will (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP)
Add: Southern Cross (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)



Remove: Greased Bolt
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP)
Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3})
Change: Speed Save (+25 CT.)



Change: Spin Fist (Fury*PA*9)
Change: Repeating Fist (Fury*PA*11)
Change: Wave Fist (Fury*PA*10)
Change: Earth Slash (Fury*PA*9)
Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65)
Add: Warpath (+2 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)

Reduced Warpath to +2 Fury for now, erring a bit on the side of caution despite disagreeing with Gaignun because this update does allow a lot more physical DPS builds to be possible.  Other stuff is what Gaignun mentioned on wanting to make the damage on Punch Art more linear, something I'm not against but don't see much need for.  These Ys are based on the Fist Y of 9.  Making the formula linear reduces the high-end damage while boosting the low-end damage, obviously, making Punch Art more generally applicable.  I don't see this as a problem, but making it have a linear damage formula essentially makes it magic via the PA stat and makes me wonder if it should accept small MP costs to make up for the heightened utility.  (Though I'll be honest - I'm more for not touching Punch Art at all this update and leaving it for the next one since it poses no direct and immediate concern and isn't too OP or UP.)



Remove: Reraise
Add: Dia (See old Paladin, JP cost up to 250.)
Add: Holy March (+2 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP. +1 Vert.
Shell, 50 JP. +1 Vert.
Raise 2, 300 JP.
Holy (Gains: Evadable)

Holy March mirrors Warpath



(+15 MAM) [Effective +1 MA]
Remove: Fire1
Remove: Ice1
Remove: Bolt1
Remove: Fire4
Remove: Ice4
Remove: Bolt4
Add: Nether Fire (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost 18, Y is 7, rest is as Fire 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Nether Ice (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 9, Y is 8, rest is as Ice 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Nether Bolt (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 23, Y is 9, rest is as Bolt 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Nether Water (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 21, Y is 8, rest is as Water 2, except no Proc.)
Change: Fire 2 (+20% Oil)
Change: Ice 2 (+20% Slow)
Change: Bolt 2 (+20% Don't Move)
Add: Water 2 (Same as Ice 2, except MP cost is 15, cannot be Reflected, 20% Cancel all Positive Status, Water Element.)
Add: Water 3 (Same as Ice 3, except MP cost is 27, cannot be Reflected, Water Element.)
[All Tiered Magic accepts M-EV, all Tiered Magic sans Water is Reflectable.]
Change: Poison (Y becomes 90, AoE +1, Vert +1)

Uniformed JP Costs for Tiered Magic:
[X] 2 Back, 100 JP.
[X] 2, 100 JP.
[X] 3, 150 JP.

Nether skills JP cost down.



Change: Haste (Vert +1)
Change: Slow (Vert +1)
Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2)
Change: Demi (12 MP, Y=90)
Change: Demi 2 (24 MP, Y=75, Dmg=50%, CT=4)
Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.
Critical Quick, 300 JP.

Follow through on all of Gaignun's proposed Time Mage buffs, in addition to reducing Demi 2's CT from a ridiculous 6 to a more reasonable 4.  Demi 1 also sees a slight accuracy boost from what Gaignun proposed, since both skills are subject to M-EV.


Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.
Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Cancel all Positive Status, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 20% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT)
Change: Lich (Change Y = 65, remove Darkness elemental.)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)



Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell)



Blind, 100 JP.



(+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM, +1 Jump)  (Effective +~20 MP, +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 Jump)
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move
Change Local Quake to +Petrify
Change Quicksand to +Zombie
Change Pitfall to +Slow
Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep
Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act
Change Demon Fire to +Oil
Change Blizzard to +All or Nothing (simultaneous) Silence and Blind
Change Sandstorm to +Berserk



Change: Asura (Y=7)
Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf)
Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, -1 Vert, Self)

Asura Y +1.



Remove: Doku no Kyoukai
Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV)
Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects)
Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to High% Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act)



Maelstrom - F_MA*4 DMG, 6 CT, 255 Vert/Area, 15 MP, Water Element, 200 JP.  (Replaces Natural Selection.)
Bio 2, 200 JP.



Change: Life Song (+15% Regen, still heals HP.)
Change: Nameless Song (Change hit rate 40%, CT = 4, RandomAdd: Reraise, Protect, Shell)



Change: Wiznaibus (+15% Poison, still damages HP.)
Change: Nameless Dance (Change to RandomAdd: Darkness, Silence, Slow, Oil)


Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

Dead:
Cancel: Oil, Frog
No Longer Cancels: Regen, Poison.

Poison:
CT becomes 96.


Still too lazy to remember what those old Gauntlets were, at worst there's room for 2 new accessories I guess!  I just think we'll be lacking the Attribute space...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 09, 2012, 10:49:03 pm
What do people think about lowering Balance's MP cost from 24 to 12?  This will allow for semi-sustainable use by armour classes - the ones with the HP pools to actually use the skill effectively.  Seeing Time Knights, Time Lancers, and so on using Haste, Slow, and Balance would be neat, for what that's worth.  Balance is a lousy skill for mages no matter its MP cost, so the skill currently stinks.

Here's another minor proposal: lower Sunken State's JP cost from 200 to 100.  Players are probably going to go on ignoring it with Hidden Knives and now Concentrate around, but... yeah, it sure isn't worth 200 JP.  Doesn't Transparent expire when being hit, too?

Quote from: RavenOfRangriz*Knives*


Has the Platina Dagger been removed?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 10, 2012, 02:31:54 am
I forgot Platina Dagger, I'll edit it in later.  It is unchanged.

I'd be cool with Balance being reduced to 12-16 MP.  It is a niche skill regardless of the cost, and a lower cost helps the niche use it better.

As for Sunken State, funny thing - it's slated to be replaced with a skill that grants Haste on hit as an alternative to Speed Save (Speed Save being better on units that are intended to take a lot of hits, this new skill on units intended to not be attacked as often, competing for a similar niche), but we never decided the JP cost or where to fucking put it. While it's easy enough to say the JP cost would be high end (400-500 range most likely), it still needs a home.  Sunken State is being trashed because the AI is retarded with non-permanent Transparent.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on June 10, 2012, 03:54:13 pm
One comment about the defense ring. Isn't canceling dead the same as canceling death sentence?

Edit: never mind, Raven already explained that the purpose to block both dead and death sentence is to prevent death sentence fail loops
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on June 10, 2012, 06:09:14 pm
Sorry, don't mean to interrupt, but I would like to share a few opinions of mine with you all.


I believe that PD is taking a huge hit with this planned revision. As things stand currently, PD is requires two moves to actually heal a character: the application of PD, and a second move to cure critical. The only builds I've seen use PD effectively are speed builds and builds that have a move that both heals self/allies and damages enemies. This is in contrast to Raise and Raise 2, which only require one application.

There is already a huge complication to PD revival teams, namely being the necessity of synching CT to avoid a wasted action (due to the enemy just re-killing the newly arisen unit). With poison lasting beyond death, a new complication arises - units getting a turn after being revived while poisoned, but having no instant healing ability (i.e., priests). Such a unit will die again, while probably doing nothing (as per critical A.I. behavior).

My understanding is that this is the desired result, as a means of preventing revive loops and speeding up matches. But in my opinion, this will substantially decrease the use of PD as a revival tool. Item users will now have to use THREE actions on a poisoned, dead unit - an action to revive, and action to heal, and an action to cure poison. I suspect that in response to his, many team designers will forego using PD entirely, and instead rely more on revive, raise, raise 2, and reraise, all of which only require TWO actions.

Further, I see this change as entirely unnecessary. Poison RIGHT NOW does two things - it potentially turns 2HKOs into 1HKOs, and it makes the A.I. waste a turn removing it. Due to the AWESOME nature of Masamune, a vast majority of teams are rocking this ability and curing poison with regen while simultaneously adding a second, enormously beneficial status effect. If you removed the regen status from Masamune, poison would instantly become more vicious because it would require a move that serves no other purpose other than to remove a status effect. Alternatively, more people might use abilities that induce regen, like the White Magic ability of the same name. Either way, the threat of poison would grow even as lesser used abilities likewise increase.



Even decreasing the range of Masamune, I'm probably going to favor it over haste because 1) it is 100%, 2) it is instant, and 3) it also adds regen. The upgrade to poison will make me even MORE inclined to use it, because unlike the Time Mage spell, the Samurai ability also removes poison. If you find nerfing Masamune unacceptable, I would suggest that in lieu of removing regen from Masamune, you strengthen the spell Haste so that it can compete. My suggestion would be to raise the constant to the max value so that it hits even on 40 faith units. Thus, Time Mages will still need higher faith to take advantage of debuffs, but users looking to spam haste can still rock a low faith Time Mage... which is sort of like those who use Samurai with just Masamune.



A final idea of mine is to REALLY buff Time Magic by making give the same treatment to slow as haste (namely making the constant so high the effect is near always at 100%). Slow, of course, would also have to be subject to M-Evasion. This way, 40 faith units can still get slowed 100% of the time so long as they aren't also using evasion gear.



You all did an excellent job on Arena. MA and PA shifts, even when close to 4 or 5 points, are generally difficult to pull off and even then do not completely lead to domination. On the other hand, shifts of Speed, Brave, and Faith can dramatically change the outcome of matches... and you've gone and made them 100%! Quickening is bad enough, but at least it requires an action and MP. A free 100% increase in Brave is just plain overpowering and will quickly become abused. Don't do it, for the love of god.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 10, 2012, 07:06:41 pm
@Poison: "Wasting a turn" really isn't a use of Poison as much as it is a use of any status the AI on the enemy team can cure, so that's essentially a null-argument.  If a negative status can be cured by the AI, it can cause the enemy AI to waste a turn, because the AI loves curing most of its negative statuses away.  If anything, the argument goes the other way around - units that can inflict Poison end up wasting turns because the AI is over-zealous with Poisoning everything in sight.  As for turning 2HKOs into 1HKOs... any team that would use Poison for that purpose is better served by a second DPS unit instead of a Poison-dedicated unit, as seen by the fact that no one has ever even considered using Poison in this way, and there's no advantage to trying to do so with current Poison.  So both your points here are completely null.  Yeah, this shits on Phoenix Down, again that's the point - a DPS team like you described can now consider Poison as a viable option because unlike a second DPS unit, it can suppress Phoenix Down / Wish loops that used to plague Arena terribly in addition to helping create OHKO opportunities, giving an actual advantage to going POISON ALL DA THINGS just adding more HULK SMASH to your team.  If the Phoenix Down'd unit gets its HP restored, it also does not need to cure Poison because Poison no longer kills them.  It adds an actual threat to the Phoenix Down / Wish user - similar to how badly aligned CTs and MP costs inhibit Raise and Raise 2 users.  Note that in earlier versions of Arena, Masamune used to randomly cycle between Haste and Regen the way it does in 1.3 and no one used it because it sucked.  Units also dealt far less damage so the near-infinite DOT of current Poison was actually able to do relevant chunks of damage to walling units.  Guess what?  People still didn't use Poison, so your posit on it becoming a lot more vicious can be disproven just by looking at Arena's history.

@Haste/Slow: I wouldn't be opposed to raising their Y values at least some, though I'd need to go pen through what they are now and do the math first.  Making them 100% is a bit much considering much weaker buffs aren't 100% at 70 Faith v 40 Faith and making them all 100% at 70 v 40 basically throws out the entire Faith mechanic for anything that's not offensive purposing, but some buff status could probably use higher Y values.

@Warpath: A maxed out Warpath (now 15 turns to make happen) roughly the bonus equipping Attack UP does, and essentially gives all units that attack you that Attack UP bonus as well.  The only thing noteworthy here is that it can be stacked with Attack UP, Two Hands, or Two Swords - if you want to wait 15 turns and turn yourself into paper mache in the process.  Using this also means you don't get Move +1 or Move-HP UP remember, which depending on the kind of offensive unit you're making can be big blows.  You can replace Move +1 with some boots, but then you're missing out on Bracer (meaning lower DPS) or a Mantle (making you even more paper), and bulky units using Warpath over Move +1 essentially give up their bulk.  There's some nifty things you can do like Gaignun's Thief, but... that's taking Jobs that had no real DPS options and giving them a unique and potentially useful DPS option.  I see nothing wrong here.  (Do note I addressed his concern by realizing the Sword involved was slightly OP and weakening the WP and by increasing the time it takes for Warpath to even work.)  Note that Faith Up strategies also currently suck - and you can build Faith up to 100 in a very small amount of time with a proper Faith Up team.  (As in, a good Faith Up team can hit 100 Faith in about 3 turns tops, and those teams DO get to use all the skills they want in the process such as Move-MP UP.)  There is an over-reaction occurring here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 10, 2012, 07:19:43 pm
How often does Poison finish off a unit? Rarely. Teams usually have healing and/or status removal to take care of Poison in a reasonable amount of time.

Now, I didn't think about the scenario where a unit gets Poisoned and then dies to something else as I was typing the above line, but now that I am thinking about it... isn't that also rather rare? Kiyomori, Shuriken, maybe Poison Proc Crossbow. Shuriken's the most relevant since it can kill and add poison in one action, as well as soften up a target for a follow-up. Poison Proc Crossbow could do the same thing, except no one uses it, so whatever. Kiyomori's starting to see use, but it's more for adding Blind than Poison. Oh, there's also Scorpion Tail, which I completely forgot about until I edited this post cause no one's using it all of a sudden. That one's relevant. Should be very relevant, in fact. Oh my. Hmm.

Masamune is being nerfed, Fanatic - in the new version it can only hit the user and one other unit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Fanatic on June 10, 2012, 10:27:39 pm
Where to begin?

@poison:
If I understand your position, and I will be simplifying, the reason behind the change is that before, poison sucked, and after, it will still suck, but at least now we can disrupt PD/Wish loops.

My thought is, if you are seeing a ton of PD/Wish loops, you've got bigger issues. What that suggests to me is that you have a game that favors the use of high damage single target attacks over weaker, AoE attacks, since the latter should be effective in stopping those loops. That is supposed to be the biggest virtue of large AoE attacks. I can think of several reason why AoE might not be effective at stopping those loops, but with the Black Magic update, I think you'll be addressing the biggest one.

I think we can agree that there are two major factors in evaluating the worth of a status effect: 1) the affect of the effect, and 2) how easily the effect is removed. Poison ranks very low right now because 1) there is very little use for inflicting such a tiny amount of damage, given that other actions can inflict far more and 2) poison can be removed by just about every class under the sun. Seriously, Squires, Paladins, and Samurai can cure it. I agree with you that as things stand, the only reason you would use poison was if you wanted to show off some bizarre team design and not because it is a powerful debuff.

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I think that by making death not cure poison, you and I agree that poison needs less curing. If you limit what can remove a particular status effect, you increase the power of that ability. But my problem is that the death extention makes poison more powerful by giving it an extremely limited use that is designed as  band-aid for a greater problem. And from comments from CT5Holy, even that might not work.

The more I think about it, if you want to really buff poison, you need to go further. My own suggestion of just taking Samurai of the cure list might not be enough.

No, how about only allowing 4 things to cure poison: Mediator's Refute, Paladin's Regen, Priest's Regen, and death. Prevent Squires, Chemists, Monks, and Samurai from being able to cure poison, and you definitely increase the strength of this status effect, and as an infinite status effect difficult for low faith units to get rid of, it starts looking like a more viable option against low faith tank teams.

@Masamune
As for Masamune - Yes, I can see what randomly giving haste or regen would suck. The same reason teams aren't spamming nameless song: we want predictability in our status buffs. It is too hard to plan out team tactics otherwise. That is why I didn't suggest random regen or haste, I suggested dropping regen completely. The more random an ability, the less people will use it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 11, 2012, 12:25:33 am
My point about old Masamune and everything else was that skills that healed Poison in older iterations of Arena weren't commonly used (hell, even Esuna was kinda rare), and the expected damage per unit was lower, meaning the ability of Poison to change damage thresholds was more valuable, and it still was not used.  Basically, older metagames have de-facto been the situation you are suggesting to create but better and Poison still sucked.  Yeah, this overlaps with the role of AoE some, and that's the point - competitive gaming often has lots of overlapping factors, forcing you to sort through the noise to pick and choose which options are best for your particular situation.  This change both makes Poison into a tool one could theoretically make use of and creates more competitive noise, an all-in-all positive change. 

Your posit is wrong too - the change is not about Poison needing less curing, it's about creating a unique situation in Poison's interaction with other statuses and the gamestate in general.  It has absolutely nothing to do with how easy or difficult Poison is to heal.  If anything, it is the ease of Poison being healed that makes giving it this new interaction more than reasonable - you can heal it from many sources from all sides of the tree, so you're not pressured to go far from your comfort zone if you feel Poison threatens your particular team.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Quman on June 17, 2012, 08:53:45 pm
Why are we even trying to balance Masamune? It was pretty much designed to be broken in vanilla, but it was "balanced" because it required the player to obtain a very rare and difficult to get piece of equipment and then risk breaking it. Those "balancing factors" aren't present in this hack, so what we're left with is a broken skill that doesn't really fit in with the rest of the Draw Outs anyway.

The Samurai move set seems complete enough without haste and regen, so why not just drop Masamune and leave haste to the Squire and Time Mage, where it actually fits in with the rest of the moves? Will the Samurai move set really be incomplete without this move?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 19, 2012, 07:34:00 pm
Hmm, this is something to keep in mind. Personally, I like what Masamune does, and keep in mind that in the next version, it can only hit 2 units max - it'll still be useful, just not ridiculously powerful. I'd like to see how this new Masamune plays out before we decide to scrap it. I think the nerf will make it fair and reasonable.

If Masamune still ends up being too strong, however, then it should be scrapped/changed to do something else (preferably changed to do something else, IMO).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Quman on June 19, 2012, 08:49:10 pm
I wouldn't suggest scrapping the ability if it actually felt like the sort of ability you might give the Samurai if you were building its move set from the ground up, but as it stands Masamune seems like an out of place ability that's being grandfathered in. I'm not concerned so much with balance as I am with letting the classes that specialize in this sort of thing actually feel special.

But regarding balance, I feel I should point out that even after Masamune is nerfed, the Samurai is still capable of accomplishing in one turn something that would take the support-focused Squire four actions to imitate. For the exact same JP cost.

I would also also like to point out that the Squire's haste ability has both a CT and MP cost, and doesn't add regen like Masamune. Yell's only advantage over Masamune is that it can reach 2 panels further. Again, we're comparing the more offense-oriented Samurai to a support-focused Squire, and the Squire is getting absolutely obliterated at his own game.

Granted, a female Squire with Ultima would be doing almost as much damage as a male Samurai with his stronger draw outs, but again the Squire trades range for both a (fairly high) CT and MP cost, and the damage is only comparable if the squire is built to have high MA and the Samurai isn't.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on June 19, 2012, 09:10:07 pm
(Yeah, as annoying as Masamune has been, I'd rather test out the linear version first before weakening it further or outright dismantling it.

Also, Squire's losing the ability to add Regen anyway; I've also personally never liked Yell, so....)

Hunh. Been almost a month since I've been around, but thankfully this thread hasn't missed much. Belated apologies to you, CT5Holy; I think were talking about the same thing and I just didn't see that for some reason.

Anyway, before I multi-quote a bit, I just want to comment that while I'm still rather iffy on the change to Poison, I actually am completely fine with Warpath & Holy March now that they only +2 Brave & Faith respectively.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 01, 2012, 06:46:55 am
Here are a few more proposals:

1. Reduce the JP cost of Critical Quick from 350 to 300.

2. Reduce Demi's MP cost from 20 to 12.

3. Change Demi 2's MP cost from 40 to 24, damage from 66% to 50%, and Y value from 65 to 75.

4. Increase Asura's Q value from 6 to 7.

5. Make Punch Art's damage formulae linear


I concur with all of these proposals. Hell, Critical Quick might need to go even lower to 250 JP.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 09, 2012, 02:19:25 pmApologies for lack of re-summarizing everything lately, in the middle of a move.  Gearing up for a 3 day Greyhound bus ride in a couple days.  Fun.  :U

*snip*

...Jesus Christ, all this bolding makes me feel like The Damned.  I need a bath. :V


No matter how many baths you've taken since this and will take, you'll never be able to get clean between that and having to take Greyhound.

Quote from: Celdia on June 09, 2012, 02:34:50 pm
THAT'S enough bold. :P


That's still not enough.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 09, 2012, 10:49:03 pm
What do people think about lowering Balance's MP cost from 24 to 12?  This will allow for semi-sustainable use by armour classes - the ones with the HP pools to actually use the skill effectively.  Seeing Time Knights, Time Lancers, and so on using Haste, Slow, and Balance would be neat, for what that's worth.  Balance is a lousy skill for mages no matter its MP cost, so the skill currently stinks.


I'd be fine with lowering Balance's MP, even as wary as I am of "Shock" techniques.

That said, since I am wary of Shock techniques, I'd go with the upper limit of what Raven suggested, which is to say 16 MP. That said, I readily admit that 16>x>11 MP might be fine.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 10, 2012, 02:31:54 amAs for Sunken State, funny thing - it's slated to be replaced with a skill that grants Haste on hit as an alternative to Speed Save (Speed Save being better on units that are intended to take a lot of hits, this new skill on units intended to not be attacked as often, competing for a similar niche), but we never decided the JP cost or where to fucking put it. While it's easy enough to say the JP cost would be high end (400-500 range most likely), it still needs a home.  Sunken State is being trashed because the AI is retarded with non-permanent Transparent.


Yeah, Sunken State probably does need to die.

As for its "home", why not have it go to Time Mage given that Time Mage is the original Haste-adder? It might be a bit much given Time Mage is also the same class with Short Charge and the only movement in the game/patch that still outright ignores an element.

Still, it would give Time Mage a useful, more reliable Reaction that doesn't require it to be actively knocked into Critical without being KO'd. This is already an iffy type of reaction to have on high-HP unit, much less lower-HP ones, especially with DSP going up. Critical Quick's problems are further even more depending on when it activates since mages often don't have instant actions, so they get a "Quick" turn only to try to charge something and retreat and then die mid-charge anyway. Additionally, I could easily give you a name for it if it goes to Time Mage.

The only other classes that would really fit would be Ninja and maybe Bard/Dancer, IMO; Bard & Dancer already have enough RSMs, though.

If it goes to Ninja, then it could probably have slightly less of JP cost than if it went to Time Mage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Quman on June 21, 2012, 07:19:00 pm
Like I said, game balance isn't my primary concern, so I'm approaching this from a different angle than you are. The linear version of Masamune might make it somewhat more balanced, but it also makes Masamune even more out of place in the Samurai's move set. Not that I'm pushing you to abandon the idea before you've tried it, but I think I should say my piece now so I don't forget to speak later.

If you end up not liking the linear version of Masamune, my suggestion is to replace Masamune with Zanmato, which would inflict instant death. Zanmato already exists in FFT as a treasure item, so it seems like an appropriate addition.

If you want to keep Masamune around though, it's probably best to revert it to the way it was in past games where it wasn't designed to be broken. In FFII, FFIV, FFV, and maybe a couple of others, Masamune's effect when used as an item was to cast the haste spell. Regen was an addition made in FFT, presumably because group haste alone wasn't good enough to justify the risk of breaking a rare weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 23, 2012, 05:54:24 pm
Quote from: Quman on June 17, 2012, 08:53:45 pm
Why are we even trying to balance Masamune? It was pretty much designed to be broken in vanilla, but it was "balanced" because it required the player to obtain a very rare and difficult to get piece of equipment and then risk breaking it. Those "balancing factors" aren't present in this hack, so what we're left with is a broken skill that doesn't really fit in with the rest of the Draw Outs anyway.

The Samurai move set seems complete enough without haste and regen, so why not just drop Masamune and leave haste to the Squire and Time Mage, where it actually fits in with the rest of the moves? Will the Samurai move set really be incomplete without this move?


The reason we're attempting to balance it is simple - Arena is a competitive game where flavor and creator intent are secondary to the metagame and mechanical design of the game. The creators made it to be broken, who gives a shit?  Its AoE is now a bit weird, who gives a shit?  Masamune is a big reason people use the Draw Out skillset, so yeah, keeping it around if possible would be nice, so everything else is secondary to making a version that isn't, well, derp.

Also, back bitches.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Quman on June 23, 2012, 08:16:05 pm
"Balance isn't my primary concern" doesn't mean "flavor is my primary concern." It just means that I have other concerns besides taking what we have and making it balanced. We both have the goal of making the game balanced, but your side prioritizes preserving the Samurai's ability to add haste and regen, while my side prioritizes mechanical coherence. It seems a bit odd that somebody on your side is criticizing me for clinging to creator intent when I'm the one saying we should ditch vanilla's precedent and focus on giving the Samurai a coherent move set rather than remaining true to the source material.

When I brought up creator intent, it was part of a strategy to encourage people to move away from creator intent, since creator intent for the ability to be broken is so strongly opposed to our goal of having a balanced game. People are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, and I'm saying that we don't need the square peg.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on June 23, 2012, 10:31:34 pm
By creator intent, I'm assuming you mean what the developers of FFT envisioned? If so, we've already thrown that out. Look at what has happened to Ninja, for example.

As for mechanical coherence, I honestly don't understand what you mean at all. If you are talking about how most samurai abilities are AoE, then why not also complain about Kiku, which has the same targeting system as Masamune, except that Masamune hits self and is 1 range. If you are talking about about how most Draw Outs deal damage to the enemy, then Murasame gets attacked as well.

And finally, the reason I don't want a mass death attack: It will either be shit or too good. Look at Odin right now. It's a terrible ability, but pumping up the hit% makes it godly. It's an ability that's impossible to balance, which is why these other suggestions are appearing. The same will happen to this new suggestion.

If you read the goals of this patch, it lists balance as the primary goal, bar nothing. Cool abilities are cool, sure, but I'm not going to make an overpowered/underpowered ability for flavour/mechanical coherence/whatever you want to call it.

TL;DR version: Masamune is currently broken, and getting nerfed. If the nerfed version is still broken, we can change it or whatever then.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Quman on June 24, 2012, 12:45:59 am
EDIT: Dang, I am way too verbose. Eh, I'll leave my wall of text in a spoiler in case somebody wants to read it, but the short of it is that I'm getting really tired of being treated like a scrub. My ego probably isn't worth the trouble of convincing you that I'm not some scrub who's all about "cool abilities" and "flavor" and "creator's intent," so I'm hoping this conversation can end now.

By creator intent, I'm assuming you mean what the developers of FFT envisioned? If so, we've already thrown that out. Look at what has happened to Ninja, for example.

I've noticed. And yet, people are very resistant to my suggestion of removing Masamune. Well, the first people to respond to me weren't too defensive. It was only after I posted my "I'm going to drop this now and leave you with these thoughts to think about later on" post that Raven got on and I felt the need to clarify that my suggestion to abandon haste and regen wasn't rooted in concern for flavor or adherence to creator intent.

As for mechanical coherence, I honestly don't understand what you mean at all. If you are talking about how most samurai abilities are AoE, then why not also complain about Kiku, which has the same targeting system as Masamune, except that Masamune hits self and is 1 range. If you are talking about about how most Draw Outs deal damage to the enemy, then Murasame gets attacked as well.

Most Samurai abilities inflict damage. One of them has a different targeting system, one of them inflicts harmful status effects instead of direct damage, and one of them is reversed to provide support rather than offense. Then there's one ability that has a different targeting system, adds status effects instead of affecting HP, and focuses on supporting the party instead of harming the enemy. Sorry for trying to use odd terminology to save myself the trouble of explaining this, but you can't tell me that Masamune doesn't deviate a lot further from the standard than the other abilities in the move set.

And finally, the reason I don't want a mass death attack...

I only suggested the AoE death because CT5Holy said he would prefer to change Masamune rather than scrap it, which was my original suggestion. I really don't care about Zanmato.

If you read the goals of this patch, it lists balance as the primary goal, bar nothing. Cool abilities are cool, sure, but I'm not going to make an overpowered/underpowered ability for flavour/mechanical coherence/whatever you want to call it.

I wasn't suggesting cool abilities for the sake of cool abilities. I was trying to come up with an alternative for people who didn't like my original plan of scrapping the ability (like CT5Holy.) Honestly, if the Samurai didn't already have haste+regen, wouldn't anybody who suggested adding that ability be treated to the exact same attitude you're treating me with? But I'm getting really frustrated here because I'm getting really tired of being treated like some scrub who's all about "flavor" or "cool abilities" or "creator intent" when I'm the one who suggested moving away from creator intent to scrap a cool ability rather than contorting it for the sake of... what exactly?

TL;DR version: Masamune is currently broken, and getting nerfed. If the nerfed version is still broken, we can change it or whatever then.

So... you referenced the Zanmato idea from my "I'm just going to leave these thoughts here so you can consider them later if your current idea doesn't work out" post, and yet you're still regurgitating back at me exactly what I already said about waiting for you to test Masamune? You are seriously getting on my nerves, but I'm going to try to calm myself because this is the internet, and text is easy to misinterpret. You probably saw me defending my position to Raven as me actually trying to convince you to change your plan (the square peg/round hole analogy probably sounded too much like an attempt at persuasion.) Also, you probably weren't paying attention to who was saying what when the topic came up on IRC (I wasn't the one suggesting veil or instant death, I just suggested the First Aid ability for the Squire when the subject of making regen useful came up.)

I probably sound just as much like a jerk to you as you do to me, so let's just end this conversation that should already be over anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 01:12:22 am
Draw Out as a skillset is Damage/Support with MA, similar to Punch Art which is Damage/Support with PA.  Draw Out supports via buffs and healing as well as defensive-oriented debuffs (AoE Blind), whereas Punch Art supports via revival/healing and anti-status.  A lot of skillsets fill two roles, and those roles aren't always obvious.  In this case, Kiyomori, despite being reversed from a defensive buff to an offensive debuff, still fills almost the exact same role by reducing your opponent's DPS - just by inflicting Blind instead of passing around Protect and Shell. There's the Poison infliction as well, but Poison is secondary to blind and mostly to allow interesting uses of the move, similar to how the Regen of Masamune is secondary to Haste  You're just seeing Masamune being buffs and thinking it doesn't fit because everything else is HP affective or offensive, but the thing is - it does fit, because the classification of skills on our end is different than the way you're thinking, is all.  (Also, a reason Masamune has kept Regen in part is so that all Samurai moves affect HP, in this case contrasting the way Kiyomori affects HP.)

If you think I come off as condescending and kind of a dick, I would apologize, but I'll be frank - I am highly condescending and very much a dick, so get used to it.  I treat everyone this way, even if they're known "veterans". :U
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on June 24, 2012, 01:18:37 am
Esuna/Stigma Magic losing Cancel: Charm is fine right? I never expected the AI to heal itself from Charm by using it that way.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 01:23:47 am
I personally like that interaction, myself.  It's still Cancel: Charging+ by negating things and costing the enemy team at least one turn, more if it goes unhealed.  Unanswered Charm is just so strong, and even answered Charm can be more than enough to change the tide of the game.

I could see maybe losing it from just Esuna and giving it to Heal or something?  Pull people a tad away from White Magic and more toward Punch Art and Basic Skill.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 24, 2012, 01:24:52 am
Hmm, how about only one of the two? Charm is just so deadly that, even if it's removed easily, the Charmed unit getting a turn is just devastating. And because it has such tremendous upside, the ease of removal hasn't deterred anyone from using Charm.

EDIT: It's already on Heal I think, Raven.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 01:31:10 am
Seems to be.  Huh.  Oh well!

I still don't see much reason to drop it, but I'd only drop it on Esuna if anything to try to de-centralize White Magic a bit.  I think the shifting in JP costs on a lot of things (namely the flip in costs on Esuna and Raise 2) will already help with that, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: iamBQB on June 24, 2012, 02:05:21 am
I have sort of a random suggestion to throw out there. I think there might be some use in a -1 movement accessory. There are certain builds that don't really act the way you'd want because the AI marches them forward when they'd better serve their purpose if they held back. Having a way to force certain units to hang in the back without giving them iron boots seems like it'd be useful, if perhaps a little niche in use.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 24, 2012, 03:51:28 am
I think that's only possible with the incredibly buggy ALMA, which means we won't be seeing any Stat- items until ALMA gets fixed? (Not 100% sure)

That said, at least in my opinion, 2 move units probably aren't good enough. Like do you really need a unit to stay that far back? It would hurt their ability to do other things, too, like move into range for an attack/spell/etc. Not to mention that when Arena first started, we experimented with 2 move units, and everyone hated it. Of course, it's not like I'm forced to use the Move -1 item, and you might be right in that it would help fill a niche. I just don't see myself using it. (And, this, of course, assumes it's even possible to have a Move -1 item, haha)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on June 24, 2012, 04:49:25 am
There's a hack from fdc a while back that allows signed values for stats. So while it is possible, it would require some of our precious attribute space. If there is enough demand, we can kill one of the unloved accessories I guess?

Idea I just thought of:

Move +3 becomes Move = 0 (pretty sure this can work)
Iron Boots loses the Don't Move part and becomes -1 move

Probably overpowered though... Or we can change Move +3 to Move -1 and keep Iron Boots the same?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 12:15:30 pm
I see no reason to change Iron Boots.  It serves a different purpose than a -1 Move accessory would entirely, and we have both the Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlets that currently go 100% unused and have no replacements slated even in our big list of shit.  I'd rather not touch Iron Boots because they actually fill a niche right now helping Dance, Lore, etc. users do their things without sucking, and while a -1 Move accessory is similar, I don't see it being of much use since often getting the correct Move synch honestly isn't very hard at all.  It'd be even more niche than Iron Boots.

I'd rather change Move +3 into Move -1 since Iron Boots isn't OP and a -1 Move / +33% HP item definitely would be far more OP than Iron Boots could ever hope to be since its fairly open-ended to use.  Honestly, I'd rather Jump +3 for Move = 0, Move + 3 for Move - 1, and kill one of the worthless Gauntlets for a Move -1 accessory.  Neither Move nor Jump +3 are even used in Arena so there's no reason we can't have both Movement skills, and the Gauntlets are useless so there's no reason we can't have both Iron Boots stay the same and get a Move -1 accessory assuming space exists.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: SoySauceMaster on June 24, 2012, 03:17:15 pm
I agree with Raven about Iron Boots. There are already the Perfumes for permanent Protect/Shell buffs. Besides, every single team has ranged/AoE skills and/or attacks. Having to sacrifice move isn't going to change a damn thing to the AI, and could only make for an OP accessory. Ignore Height and Teleport surpasses any Jump+ skill, so I also agree with Raven there. Seeing how easy it is to improve movement with knives and Green Beret, I doubt that anybody would be sad about shoes getting chucked.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 03:28:31 pm
You agree with me yet mention shoes getting chucked... but no one mentioned anything about chucking any shoes.  The accessories I'm talking about editing are the Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlets, two of the least used and completely redundant accessories in Arena. @.@
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: SoySauceMaster on June 24, 2012, 04:02:07 pm
Sorry 'bout that, was reading too fast. But, anyway, they may as well be. If you're going for a unit with high physical evasion, then most likely it will have low Faith. In that case, it'd be better to equip a Vanish Mantle, or even Cherche. It's the same scenario with Battle Boots. Red Shoes are the shoes worth using because of Draw Out. Even then, there's the whole metagame to worry about, and would probably rather prefer status/elemental protection over that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 04:32:17 pm
You forget Germinas Boots, the only source of Move +2 in the game.  They're the only method for a Move 3 unit to become a Move 5 unit without giving up their Movement slot, at least armored ones.  Cloth ones can use Green Beret, but that means needing to use Green Beret and a second item to reach 5 Move unless you're a base 4 Move unit to start and in turn giving up access to something like Twist Headband.

But... yeah, other than Red Shoes and Germinas Boots, the other Shoes are mostly niche.  The difference is that they're still usable on specific builds, which is all they really need to be - whereas Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet are just bad.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 05:59:03 pm
Though it should be noted that using FDC's hack removes the ability to make Stepping Stone units because Stepping Stone is determined by Jump being over 128 and his hack uses the values of 128-255 to determine negative values instead.  I think this means that anything with a negative Jump score might be able to be used as a stepping stone inadvertently though, but I don't see us making any negative Jump items or skills.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 24, 2012, 11:43:02 pm
Hmm, what are people's thoughts on a +1 Speed Armor or Helmet? Would give less HP than other Armors/Helms, of course.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 24, 2012, 11:53:00 pm
Kind of defeats the difference between a heavy armored unit and a light armored unit, personally.  Heavy units get more HP and status guards, light armored units get less HP but better stats and elem absorb.  Most armored units also get Shields by default (I wouldn't be opposed to also giving Samurai Shields by default for those that don't want to make use of innate Two Hands), which gives them even more bulkiness, Elem Absorb, stats, etc, including a SPD +1 Shield in this newest revision.

That's basically my main qualm against it - it reduces the division between Clothes and Armor even further and reduces the aspect of roles between classes by letting every class getting super derp SPD, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on June 24, 2012, 11:58:40 pm
Oh that's right, forgot about +SPD shield. I feel silly now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on June 27, 2012, 03:18:08 am
Here's the current changes. More changes will be added when I'm done asm hacking it. For pretty much all of it, it's follows Raven's proposed changes, so if you missed it, you can read it here.

Changelog
Bug fixes and other random noted changes
- Swapped Thief and Scholar back around... again. Added Xif's Calculator slowdown fix(this will make the ppf smaller overall)
- Added fdc's checksum hack


Items
Knives
- Throwing Knife  gains 33% Add: Death Sentence
- Dual Cutters WP increased to 7
- Blind Knife replaced with Repel Knife - 9 WP, 15 W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% All or Nothing Add: Don't Act and Haste
- Mage Masher - WP increased to 9, proc changed to 50% Cast Bizen Boat
- Main Gauche is now 2 Handable
- Orichalcum is now 2 Handable
- Assassin Dagger replaced with Katar - 12 WP, 15 W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 PA
- Air Knife is now 2 Handable

Ninjato
- Spell Edge gains 50% Cast: Spell Absorb

Swords - New
- Phoenix Blade - 16 WP, 25 W-EV, 1 hand only, Always: Reraise, Slow, Immune: Dead, Undead, Haste, Death Sentence
- Tactician Blade - 14 WP, 10 W-EV, 1 hand only, +1 Move, +1 Jump
- Parry Edge - 9 WP, 20 W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands
- Moonlight - 9 WP, 0 W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 50% Cast: Blade Beam
- Shieldrender - 8 WP, 5 W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 50% Cast: Shield Break
- Lionheart - 10 WP, 0 W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes 2 Hands, +2 PA
- Ultima Weapon - 10 WP, 10 W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33% Cast: Ultima

Swords - Old
- Blood Sword W-EV reduced to 0, becomes 2 handable
- Coral Sword gains 33% Cast: Water Ball
- Ancient Sword WP lowered to 9, gains 2 swords/2 hands, proc chance reduced to 20%
- Sleep Sword WP increased to 9
- Platinum sword WP decreased to 12, gains 2 swords/2 hands
- Diamond Sword removed to become Shieldrender
- Ice Brand WP increased to 14, proc chance reduced to 20%
- Rune Blade is now 2 handable

Knight Swords
- Defender WP increased to 15
- Save the Queen WP increased to 16
- Excalibur WP increased to 13
- Ragnarok WP increased to 16
- Chaos Blade WP increased to 17, gains 100% Cancel: Regen in addition to all other cancels

Katana
- All Katana are now 2 handable/2 swordable(even the ones not listed)
- Asura WP increased to 10
- Kotetsu WP decreased to 9, gains Strengthen: Dark
- Heaven's Cloud loses 1 PA, gains 50% Add: Slow
- Kiyomori WP decreased to 10, gains 2 MA
- Muramasa WP decreased to 9
- Kikuichimoji WP decreased to 10, gains 33% Cast: Quake
- Masamune WP decreased to 8, gains 50% Cast: Dispel Magic
- Chirijiraden gains Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

Staves
- Rainbow staff loses all elements(still retains neutral: all)

Guns
- Blaze Gun WP reduced to 13, always casts Fire 2
- Glacier Gun WP reduced to 12, always casts Ice 2
- Blast Gun WP reduced to 11, always casts Bolt 2

Crossbows
- Bow Gun proc changed to 50% Cast: Armor Break
- Crossbow replaced with Silencer - 10 WP, 0 W-EV, No 2 swords, No 2 Hands, 4 Range, 50% Add: Silence
- Poison Bow WP increased to 12

Bows
- All bows gain 1 WP
- Silver Bow gain 20% Cast: Holy
- Ice Bow proc changed to 25% Add: Stop
- Lightning Bow proc changed to 25% Add: Don't Act
- Windslash Bow gains 20% Cast: Hurricane (33% Max HP damage)
- Ultimus Bow gains 1 PA

Books
- Battle Dict renamed to Necronomicon, WP increased to 14
- Monster Dict proc changed to 33% Cast: Magic Ruin (50% MP damage at PA+60% chance to hit)
- Papyrus Plate WP increased to 12
- Madlemgen WP increased to 13

Bags
- All bags are now 2 handable/2 swordable
- C Bag gains 1 MA
- FS Bag gains 1 PA
- P Bag loses Weak: Dark

Shields
- Ice Shield P-EV increased to 20, M-EV decreased to 15
- Flame Shield P-EV decreased to 15, M-EV increased to 20
- Diamond Shield P-EV decreased to 5, M-EV increased to 25
- Platina Shield P-EV increased to 25, M-EV decreased to 5
- Crystal Shield P-EV increased to 20, M-EV increased to 20, gains Neutral: All Elements
- Genji Shield P-EV decreased to 10
- Venetian Shield replaced with Swift Plate - 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, +1 speed

Helmets
- Gold Helm loses Immune: Chicken, gains Immune: Don't Move
- Genji Helm loses Immune: Don't Move, gains Initial: Berserk

Headbands
- Cachusha renamed to Focus Band

Armor
- Genji Armor HP decreased to 40, MP increased to 40, gains Always: Protect, Shell, Don't Move(placeholder item until I can work something in, for now, have fun with HEAVY ARMOR OF NO MOVING)

Robes
- Light Robe loses Weak: Dark

Accessories
- Reflect Ring loses Immune: Silence, gains Immune: Berserk
- Defense Ring gains Immune: Dead, Silence, gains Absorb: Water
- Cursed Ring gains Immune: Crystal (Immune: Death Sentence was there but not documented)
- Diamond Armlet gains Null: Earth, gains Immune: Oil
- Jade Armlet loses Immune: Chicken, gains Null: Ice
- 108 Gems loses Immune: Blood Suck, gains Immune: Oil
- N-kai Armlet loses Immune: Confusion, gains Immune: Undead
- Small Mantle P-EV increased to 10, M-EV decreased to 20
- Leather Mantle P-Ev increased to 20, M-EV increased to 30
- Wizard Mantle P-EV increased to 15, M-EV increased to 25
- Elf Mantle P-EV increased to 25, M-EV increased to 25
- Dracula Mantle P-EV increased to 25, M-EV increased to 15
- Feather Mantle P-EV increased to 30, M-EV increased to 20
- Vanish Mantle P-EV decreased to 20, M-EV increased to 10


Jobs
Squire
- Bullrush proc changed to 100% Cancel: Haste
- Cheer Up remade to Alacrity: 10 MP, +1MA, self only, 200 JP
- Squire gains Concentrate(400JP)

Chemist
- Antidote gains Cancel: Darkness, JP increased to 100
- Eye Drop changed to Chronos Tear: Cancel: Stop, 100 JP
- Echo Grass gains Cancel: Berserk, JP increased to 100

Paladin
- Nurse gains Add: Regen
- Transfusion MP cost removed
- Iron Will gains Add: Shell, loses Add: Regen
- Magic Ward replaced with Reraise: 3 range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP, 0 CT, Add: Reraise
- Grand Cross gains Target Self
- New Skill Northern Cross: Same as Grand Cross except cannot target or hit self, no status, 250 JP

Archer
- Greased Bolt removed
- Hawk's Eye gains 100% Add: Poison, Oil
- Execute Y increased to 40
- Cover Fire formula fixed to Random[1...3]*(PA+70)
- Speed Save increased to 25 CT on proc

Priest
- Dia added to White Magic
- Raise 2 JP increased to 300
- Regen/Protect/Shell JP reduced to 50
- Esuna JP reduced to 200
- Holy is now M-Evadable

Wizard
- Wizard base job gains 1 MA
- Black Magic Fire/Bolt/Ice tiers remade to Fire/Bolt/Ice/Water(check the tables)
- Tiers are now Level 1 Magic(old level 2 magic), Nether Magic, and Level 2 Magic(old level 3 magic)
- Poison Y decreased to 90, AoE increased to 2, vert increased to 3

Time Mage
- Haste/Slow Vert increased to 1, JP increased to 100
- Don't Move AoE increased to 2, Vert increased to 3, JP increased to 100
- Balance MP cost reduced to 15
- Demi MP cost reduced to 12, Y increased to 90
- Demi 2 MP cost reduced to 24, Y increased to 75, X decreased to 50, CT decreased to 4
- Critical Quick JP reduced to 300

Summoner
- All summons with CT >= 5 are now M-Evadable
- Leviathan Y increased to 8, gains 20% Cancel: All positive statii, MP increased to 20
- Salamander Y increased to 8, gains 20% Add: Oil, MP increased to 20
- Titan Y increased to 10, MP increased to 25
- Odin remade - Dmg_F(MA * 9), Darkness elemental, 20% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT
- Lich loses darkness elemental, Y increased to 65
- Cyclops CT reduced to 5

Thief
- Spellbreaker formula changed to Dmg_(Weapon) with 50% proc

Oracle
- Blind JP increased to 100

Geomancer
- Geomancer base job gains 20 MP, 1 PA, 1 MA, 1 Jump
- Geomancy statii reshuffled

Samurai
- Asura Y increased to 7
- Kotetsu range increased to 1, AoE decreased to 2
- Masamune Range increased to 1, AoE decreased to 0,  hits self+target

Ninja
- Meiton, Fuuton and Suiton are now M-Evadable
- Doku no Kyoukai removed
- Kagesougi proc changed to 100% random add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act

Scholar
- Natural Selection replaced with Maelstrom( same as other all target Lore except water element)
- Bio 2 JP increased to 200

Bard
- Life Song gains 15% Add: Regen
- Nameless Song loses Add: Regen, Haste, gains Add: Reflect

Dancer
- Wiznaibus gains 15% Add: Poison
- Nameless Dance loses Add: Poison, gains Add: Oil

Status
- Poison is now 96 CT, does not get removed on Dead
- Regen does not get removed on Dead
- Dead now cancels Oil and Frog
- Oil now causes the unit to be weak to all elements except Holy/Dark, dispels on all  elemental attacks except Holy/Dark

EDIT: I will accept weapon/armor/skill renames. Basically, my goal is to tidy up everything. After the initial testing, the usual quickfixes for bugs/major balance issues will be done, and will be released as version 1.0. After that, we can start development on monsters. Ability descriptions will start as soon as I decide on a decent format for Arena.

Anything glaringly wrong or anything I've missed should be noted here so I can fix them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on June 27, 2012, 03:39:46 pm
Oil -> Imperil (Status in FFXIII that makes the enemy weak to all elements)
Tactician Blade -> Tactician's Blade
Parry Edge -> Broadsword (Parry Edge? What is this, FFVI SNES?)
Moonlight -> Estrella (Same meaning, sounds nicer. Sword in FFTA2.)
Silencer -> Silenshot
Swift Plate -> Zephyr Shield
Barette -> Choice Band
Ribbon -> Chakra Band
Southern Cross -> Saint Cross (Southern Cross usually has to do with Ice/Freezing status)

Nameless Song imbuing Reflect would make me use it even less, particularly if I use White Magic. Also, I still highly object to M-EVDable Summons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2012, 03:51:03 pm
Tactician's Blade is too many characters.

Moonlight is a reference even you should get Eternal.  It refers to the clear, magical blade that appears in King's Field, Demon's Souls, and Armored Core.  In Armored Core it fires a projectile weapon as well as initial blade damage which explodes for extra damage (Blade Beam).  Not everything has to reference a Final Fantasy game, bro. See: Focus Band.

Celdia will disembowel you if you don't let her have Southern Cross I think. :U
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on June 27, 2012, 04:44:31 pm
Not everything has to be final fantasy related yet we can't have ballistic knives :(

In all seriousness though i can understand why we're using the reference moonlight. its some pretty nice insight on your part raven
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 08:15:00 pm
Do the names I suggested before still count?  Here's my list of recommendations:

Tactician Blade -> Scout's Blade
Parry Edge -> Epee
Defense Armlet -> Oven Mittens (It's more descriptive than "Defense Armlet," considering that it now nulls fire)
Alacrity -> Focus (you can accumulate, you can focus, but you can't alacrity)

QuoteCrystal Shield P-EV increased to 20, M-EV increased to 20, gains Neutral: All Elements


This shield is as good as useless.  The only weakness it can cover for is Cursed Ring's weakness to fire.  How about putting it in a more useful niche, like "Null: Haste" with benefits like "Null: Slow, Stop" or "Always: MP/CT Regen" (if either existed)?  As long as we make the benefits attractive enough to lure people away from depending on Haste, the shield will have more personality.

QuoteNameless Song loses Add: Regen, Haste, gains Add: Reflect


Wasn't this supposed to add Reraise instead of Reflect?

Quote- Grand Cross gains Target Self
- New Skill Northern Cross: Same as Grand Cross except cannot target or hit self, no status, 250 JP


Do you mean that Paladins will have the old Grand Cross in addition to the new one?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2012, 08:33:28 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 08:15:00 pmThis shield is as good as useless.  The only weakness it can cover for is Cursed Ring's weakness to fire.  How about putting it in a more useful niche, like "Null: Haste" with benefits like "Null: Slow, Stop" or "Always: MP/CT Regen" (if either existed)?  As long as we make the benefits attractive enough to lure people away from depending on Haste, the shield will have more personality.


The issue is there's no room in Item Attributes.  See: the odd change to Genji Armor in order to squeeze space.  If you want the Shield to do something else, it needs another pre-existing effect.  While this shield for now only affects Cursed Ring (as a stronger alternative to Flame Shield), it also opens up future design space since there are many unused Clothing, Armor, Helmet, Hat slots which could involve elem weaknesses, etc.

It could do with something better most likely, but since there's no space, there's not many other options to put on there.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 08:15:00 pmWasn't this supposed to add Reraise instead of Reflect?


Yes, yes it was.  I missed that proofreading his changelog, not sure why it does that.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 08:15:00 pmDo you mean that Paladins will have the old Grand Cross in addition to the new one?


That was always the intent, yes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on June 27, 2012, 10:10:55 pm
It has both Reflect and Reraise currently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2012, 10:16:10 pm
Oh that works.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on June 27, 2012, 10:21:50 pm
If anything I'll still run tests for 1.38 anyways then from there we can decide if the changes are good or bad
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 10:35:45 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2012, 08:33:28 pm
The issue is there's no room in Item Attributes.  See: the odd change to Genji Armor in order to squeeze space.  If you want the Shield to do something else, it needs another pre-existing effect.  While this shield for now only affects Cursed Ring (as a stronger alternative to Flame Shield), it also opens up future design space since there are many unused Clothing, Armor, Helmet, Hat slots which could involve elem weaknesses, etc.


Ah, I gotcha.  Our hands are tied, huh?

I'm wondering how easy it would be to make abilities add elemental weaknesses to their targets.  It wouldn't be like Oil, which expires on hit, but something that would last until death.  If this is possible, we could add a new class of skills, or perhaps a new job entirely, that manipulates targets' elemental affinities.  Then, equipment with "Neutral: All Elements" can null these kinds of attacks.  The easiest way to pull this off would probably be to create eight status effects that add weakness to each element and making the equipment null every one.  Otherwise, an attack parameter which acts upon target affinities will need to be added, which will probably require a messy ASM hack.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2012, 08:33:28 pmThat was always the intent, yes.


I'm a little confused, then.  Is the only difference between the two skills that one hits self and adds blind and the other doesn't?  They seem similar enough to be two tiers of a group.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on June 27, 2012, 10:55:10 pm
Sothern Cross is usable with basically any setup, while Grand Cross requires specific setups. That's about it really.

Tactician's Blade can fit, so there's no problem with that name.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2012, 10:58:59 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 10:35:45 pmI'm wondering how easy it would be to make abilities add elemental weaknesses to their targets.  It wouldn't be like Oil, which expires on hit, but something that would last until death.  If this is possible, we could add a new class of skills, or perhaps a new job entirely, that manipulates targets' elemental affinities.  Then, equipment with "Neutral: All Elements" can null these kinds of attacks.  The easiest way to pull this off would probably be to create eight status effects that add weakness to each element and making the equipment null every one.  Otherwise, an attack parameter which acts upon target affinities will need to be added, which will probably require a messy ASM hack.


FDC and I discussed this a long time ago.  It'd involve gouging out your eyes with a rusty spork then trying to put them back in with some duct tape.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 10:35:45 pmI'm a little confused, then.  Is the only difference between the two skills that one hits self and adds blind and the other doesn't?  They seem similar enough to be two tiers of a group.


Yes, that's basically the difference, one hits you and one doesn't.  That makes both skills play out very differently in application though despite being almost exactly the same.  One is generic, easy to use, but is only good for DPS, the other is harder to use, requires setups, but can do many different things at us (status, healing, DPS). 

This is why I think Grand Cross should be renamed Northern Cross to better make it look a counterpart to Southern Cross.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 11:21:00 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on June 27, 2012, 10:58:59 pm
FDC and I discussed this a long time ago.  It'd involve gouging out your eyes with a rusty spork then trying to put them back in with some duct tape.


So you're saying it's possible? :D
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: SoySauceMaster on June 28, 2012, 01:22:46 am
Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2012, 11:21:00 pm
So you're saying it's possible? :D

Maybe if units had a sub-equipment menu that equips items that only halves one element, each. The sub menu would need to have 8 slots to account for all the elements, even though there's only 5 spaces available. Then you'd have to make a sniping class to target only the sub-menu items. Of course, all units would start out with innate half-elemental damage, so there would probably need to be some rebalancing issues with elemental weapons/abilities. There's also the issue of overlapping original elemental-guarding equips.

Seeing how there's already a sniping class, as well as teams that use equips which offer elemental protection, as is, I find it quite redundant. If you want to inlict more spell damage, then that's what Faith manipulating and Shell-dispelling abilities are for.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 28, 2012, 01:58:18 am
It's "possible" Gaignun, but the amount of work required to make it happen isn't worth it and it will disappear if a unit as its equipment broken or is otherwised forced to refresh its properties.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: formerdeathcorps on June 28, 2012, 03:18:19 pm
I propose the following:

Thief Hat: +80 HP, +1 SPD
Secret Clothes: +60 HP, +1 SPD, Halve: Wind, Earth, Water

Reasons:
1) Secret Clothes needs to see more use.
2) Stops teams from walling all elements (which is fairly cheap if the team doesn't rely on damage).  In particular, it discourages the overuse of black costume and white robe (both of which had perfect synergies with thief hat).  The metagame can handle this reduction in defensive ability because we reduced the effectiveness of some of the more potent damaging options, namely: Blaze Gun Kagesougi's damage, Koutetsu's AoE, evadability of holy/ninjitsu, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on June 29, 2012, 03:42:54 pm
While I agree that Secret Clothes needs a buff, I'm not sure if removing defensive options is the way to go about it.  The only gear combination right now that blocks all elements is Diamond Shield, Thief Hat, White Robe, and N-Kai Armlet.  The only classes that can equip these abilities without support skills are Squire and Geomancer.  However, this combination grants no positive buffs, with the exception of Thief Hat's +1 SP, so these two classes are going to be comparatively weak.  Mage classes can block all elements with Equip Shield, but then they are giving up their support slot for other valuable skills like Short Charge or Magic Defend UP, not to mention spending 250 JP unlocking a skill set (Geomancy) they're probably not going to use for anything else.  They'll also be squishy, which will leave them exposed to powerful non-elemental magic (the most potent of which is turning out to be simply the "Attack" command with all these new weapons coming out).  Exchanging offense/defense for elemental resistance is a fair trade, wouldn't you think?

Ultimately, if elemental resistance becomes a problem, you just need to start playing the meta-game with breaks and steals.  At least with Venetian Shield gone, playing the meta-game will be easier.

This is my thought on the issue, anyway.

EDIT: I've been wondering: is Ultima Weapon's Ultima proc going to hit its user?  The spell does have 1 AoE, after all
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 30, 2012, 01:18:13 am
Weapon Procs do not have an AoE so no it would not.

I don't see any issue with the Black Costume + Thief Hat or White Robe + Thief Hat combos.  You used to be able to make far stronger defensive setups in Arena, and now will Elements being pushed harder, having an answer to them that leaves you gimped in other ways seems fine to me, especially with Venetian Shield gone, since the main combo was Venetian Shield + Thief Hat which gave huge protection for low opportunity cost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on July 04, 2012, 02:10:14 pm
(Indeed. While I concur that Secret Clothes needs some type of boost, as does Sprint Shoes, that seems a bit much, formerdeathcorps.)

Well, good to see this thread hasn't moved too much from last Thursday, which is when I meant to post before everything kinda went to Sheol. Again. Well, moreso, but nothing major.

Anyway....

Ah, so the Item Attribute room did run out. I suspected as much.

First things first, though I suppose it's related to that since it doesn't call for any new Item Attribute room. I finally remembered to find that damn suggestion I had for Hair Adornments after not seeing any mention of those on FFMaster's...master list aside from the random Pokemon reference change. So, of course, it would be all the way back on page 23...as the first thing I ever replied with in regards to this:

Quote from: The Damned on May 11, 2012, 07:04:25 pm6. Diversify the "Head-bands" more please - Decrease Ribbon's HP to 60 and decrease Barrete's HP to 70 while letting it block Sleep given that a) Ribbon doesn't and b) Confusion & Chicken don't exist anymore. I really can't remember the last time I ever saw anyone use Barette or Cachusha even before they became Monk-exclusive. Perhaps let Cachusha keep its 80 HP, lose a bit of its 80 MP and gain immunity to Undead, Charm, Innocent & Faith (basically sharing Item Attribute with Crystal Armor) since it honestly needs to block something if the other two block so much; meanwhile Ribbon loses both its immunities to Undead and Charm to stop the aforementioned monopoly of serious status.


Given that no one objected to this--if only because everyone seems to have ignored it, perhaps because their eyes understandably glazed over at the length of that post--and I honestly feel like Hair Adornments still need changes, I am still going to push this. In fact, I'm going to elaborate further because I made an addendum to this some time after that I don't feel like finding to also quote:


1. Cachusha (or whatever the hell we're call it, even if I don't get this "band" talk): It shares the Item Attribute of Crystal Armor, which means that it comes to Block Charm, Undead, Innocent and Faith as well; we honestly need at least one more thing that blocks Innocent and Faith and if there's no more room.... It retains its 80 HP, but its MP drops down to about 30 or 40 or even 50.

2. Barrette: Its Item Attribute loses Confusion and Chicken since those no longer exist in ARENA and gains Sleep. As such, it would thus Block Dead, Silence, Poison, Slow, Sleep, Don't Move and Death Sentence. It retains its 70 HP and 0 MP.

3. Ribbon: Its Item Attribute loses Undead and Charm since it already blocks too damn much as it is. It would then "only" Block Petrify, Darkness/Blind, Berserk, Frog, Stop and Don't Act. Its HP might still be fine at 70 given that now it doesn't trump Barette (as egregiously at least), especially with the upcoming change to Poison, but maybe it should fall to 60 HP given Ribbon still covers almost all the other "serious" status effects sans Charm now.

4. Availability: Even if Monk continues to be the only class that gets to innately equip Hair Adornments/Headbands/Ribbons/Whatever, they really need to be still accessible to other classes somehow, even if that means they take hit in HP. As such, I think it would be "fine" to either include them with Equip Clothes, since it's not like anyone really uses that at present, or Equip Armor, even though that already sees plenty of use and would possibly obviate Helmets given the amount of HP that Headbands currently have (for some reason, given Monks are tied for the highest natural HP among classes that can wear equipment). Still, Equip Clothes getting Headbands might be a bit much considering it would largely obviate Hats there and mean that Equip Clothes were capable of blocking more status than Equip Armor, if only with less HP. Hmmm.... Maybe put it with Equip Shield considering they're--well Ribbon and the currently inferior Barrette, anyway--basically headshields against status; hell, male Geomancers wear headbands in their sprites anyway....


That's pretty much it with regards to Cachusha, Barrette and Ribbon (for now), though if someone can tell me why Cachusha was suggested to be named Focus Band, that would be great.

Quote from: Eternal248 on June 27, 2012, 03:39:46 pm
Oil -> Imperil (Status in FFXIII that makes the enemy weak to all elements)
Tactician Blade -> Tactician's Blade
Parry Edge -> Broadsword (Parry Edge? What is this, FFVI SNES?)
Moonlight -> Estrella (Same meaning, sounds nicer. Sword in FFTA2.)
Silencer -> Silenshot
Swift Plate -> Zephyr Shield
Barette -> Choice Band
Ribbon -> Chakra Band
Southern Cross -> Saint Cross (Southern Cross usually has to do with Ice/Freezing status)


Of these, I disagree with Tactician Blade, Silenshot, Choice Band and Chakra Band outright. It's not that I mind Pokemon references, but I'd rather have them...make sense considering that Focus Band and Choice Band are nothing like the two items they're being suggested for. (Maybe if Cachusha were getting Initial: Berserk, I could see Choice Band working....) The first two don't fit any better--the first one literally, in terms of length. Silencer already references another type of projectile-related apparatus and Scout's Sword/Blade/Edge just seems better anyway.

On the flipside, outright agree with Imperil and Zephyr Shield. I had forgotten that Imperil (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Imperil_%28Status%29) even officially existed. That's probably because I've only ever looked it up once, way before I "stole" formerdeathcorps' "Exposed" idea, and I've never played FFXIII (and still have no intention to do so). Zephyr Shield is something I agree with because the random "Plate" among everything else being a Shield (sans the two initial shitty shields and then the ultimate shield) always kinda bugged me.

The rest--Broadsword, Estrella and Saint Cross--I'm kinda ambivalent about, but as for which way I lean, I'd go with "yes, no and it depends." Broadsword does make better sense in a practical manner, even if it reminds everyone of the shitty initial sword. Estrella should stay Moonlight for reasons Raven explained even though I've never played that game and thus have no idea what he's referencing.

You're right about Southern Cross, and I feel like an idiot for suggesting that, partly because I forgot about Saint Cross myself despite working closely with Paladins as of late; as such, I'm probably using that for Embargo now and saving Southern Cross for something else. That said, I also concur with Raven that Northern Cross should be used if Southern Cross gets used, even if it won't (always) be Ice element. If Grand Cross is the name still getting used though, then Saint Cross should be used, even as much as Grand Cross being the name of that technique still weirds me out.

That said, the current Grand Cross animation works for...the current "Grand Cross" technique, so that should stay regardless of the name; you could probably get away with using that same animation for Northern Cross/Southern Cross/Saint Cross too.


I'll handle FFMaster's post in spoilers, though my reply won't be terribly long...for me:

Quote from: FFMaster on June 27, 2012, 03:18:08 am
Here's the current changes. More changes will be added when I'm done asm hacking it. For pretty much all of it, it's follows Raven's proposed changes, so if you missed it, you can read it here.

Changelog

Knight Swords
- Chaos Blade WP increased to 17, gains 100% Cancel: Regen in addition to all other cancels

Books
- Battle Dict renamed to Necronomicon, WP increased to 14
- Monster Dict proc changed to 33% Cast: Magic Ruin (50% MP damage at PA+60% chance to hit)
- Papyrus Plate WP increased to 12
- Madlemgen WP increased to 13

Armor
- Genji Armor HP decreased to 40, MP increased to 40, gains Always: Protect, Shell, Don't Move(placeholder item until I can work something in, for now, have fun with HEAVY ARMOR OF NO MOVING)

Accessories
- Defense Ring gains Immune: Dead, Silence, gains Absorb: Water



Jobs
Squire
- Cheer Up remade to Alacrity: 10 MP, +1MA, self only, 200 JP

Paladin
- Grand Cross gains Target Self
- New Skill Northern Cross: Same as Grand Cross except cannot target or hit self, no status, 250 JP

Priest
- Dia added to White Magic

Wizard
- Wizard base job gains 1 MA
- Black Magic Fire/Bolt/Ice tiers remade to Fire/Bolt/Ice/Water(check the tables)
- Tiers are now Level 1 Magic(old level 2 magic), Nether Magic, and Level 2 Magic(old level 3 magic)
- Poison Y decreased to 90, AoE increased to 2, vert increased to 3

Time Mage
- Demi MP cost reduced to 12, Y increased to 90
- Demi 2 MP cost reduced to 24, Y increased to 75, X decreased to 50, CT decreased to 4
- Critical Quick JP reduced to 300

Thief
- Spellbreaker formula changed to Dmg_(Weapon) with 50% proc

Bard
- Nameless Song loses Add: Regen, Haste, gains Add: Reflect


Anything glaringly wrong or anything I've missed should be noted here so I can fix them.



Knight Swords
- Chaos Blade change is new. It seems a bit...excessive considering the WP upgrade, what it already canceled, the new Paladin technique that makes it the weapon to use with that (in terms of straight damage) even without the WP upgrade and the upgrade to Poison. I don't think it makes it broken or anything; I'm just not sure it's necessary, even with Chaos Blade's 0% W-EV.


Books
- I approve of the name change to "Battle Dict". Actually, can we just use the PSP names for other books as well?


Armor
- Genji Armor...is new. For a "placeholder", I actually kinda approve of it.


Accessories
- Defense Ring blocking Dead...and Silence is new, though I suppose we don't want too many things to block Oil/Imperil. I also did say we needed something else to absorb Silence, even if I didn't want it to be something else that absorbed (or nullified) an Element given my feelings about Magic Ring. Regardless, please rename Defense Ring "Coral Ring".


Squire
- Please rename Alacrity "Focus".


Paladin
- Uh, didn't Grand Cross already Self Target?
- Technically, Northern Cross is "supposed" to be Southern Cross; I'm fine with this, though, since that's actually the name that I'm using for it in Embargo. Regardless, as I said above, what you name it should depend on what Grand Cross ends up (re)named as.


Priest
- Dia needs some type of nerf if it's going to White Magic considering how cheap it is in both terms of JP & MP and how powerful it is relative both of those, its instant speed and its ability to cause Blind. Yeah....


Wizard
- Looks good. Thanks for reducing the numbering scheme, even if that made the Guns using Whatever "2" initially confusing. Speaking of that, I'm guessing the new 1s are still able to cause 20% whatever and it's just not noted?


Time Mage
- Looks great. I'm a bit weary of Demi being almost half of Demi 2 all over the field, but meh, we'll see how it works. Critical Quick might need to be reduced a bit more, but otherwise it's a start. I'm tempted to suggest renaming Demi, but it wouldn't work with other "2s" currently around, so also meh.


Thief
- Whoa whoa whoa. Spellbreaker is supposed to be MA*WP, not straight weapon damage. Otherwise it becomes rather...ridiculous. Mind you, it could still rather easily be quite powerful as MA*WP, but probably not as absurd as PA and on universally squishier units that would have to get close. Also, please make sure this isn't usable with Two Swords, regardless; preferably Two Hands as well, but that shouldn't be a problem if it's MA-based.


Bard
- You should note that Nameless Song will still be adding Reraise if it's actually still there. Reflect being there is new and, as some people have already noted, potentially ripe for backfire. Still, I'm more or less fine with that since I feel that White Magic needs/needed a nerf overall and we'll have to see if the AI even uses Nameless Song still anyway.


Quote from: FFMaster on June 27, 2012, 03:18:08 amEDIT: I will accept weapon/armor/skill renames. Basically, my goal is to tidy up everything. After the initial testing, the usual quickfixes for bugs/major balance issues will be done, and will be released as version 1.0. After that, we can start development on monsters. Ability descriptions will start as soon as I decide on a decent format for Arena.


I'll make a formal list of suggested name changes next time I post, which will probably on Friday.

If you need help with Ability Descriptions, then I can (try to) help with those since I still need to work on them myself for the most part.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on August 07, 2012, 11:16:23 am
Sometimes I almost wish that only females can equip ribbons like in vanilla for arena. but that would be OP because you can then come up with uber defense setups for females like a female paladin with white magic, damage split, unyielding, move-mp up or whatever. Just my train of thought while anticipating 1.38
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Shade on August 19, 2012, 12:49:26 pm
I am declaring Murasame broken (the skill).

Reason are actually very simple.

Instant, better Y value then moogle, not based on fury or faith, AOE of 2.

Doesn't help that masamune still exist and in lesser extend, but it will still make murasame even more broken. Even if it's a single target.

Also I noticed during tourney that draw outs were really powerful. instant 150 damage in AOE of 2 hurts, especially when fury or faith don't effect it at all. Also notice how top teams in the tournament had draw out expect for FDC (I salute you for making farther then I my friend). It's not a suprise that draw out was efficient, it is pretty easy determine that the consistency of the draw out was killing other team left and right. and a lot of consistency coming from the fact that draw outs aren't affected by fury or faith.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on August 23, 2012, 03:02:01 am
About Draw Out: Masamune was mainly responsible for the skill set's success last season.  That, and the fact that hardly anyone stacked M-EV.

If progress on the 1.38 patch isn't too far along, might I suggest a few tweaks to the current list of suggestions?


How is the 1.38 patch coming along, anyway?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on August 23, 2012, 03:04:51 am
It just came out, Gaignun, although there appears to be a few bugs (not 100% sure about the bug statement).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on August 23, 2012, 04:48:59 am
Ah, my bad.  That's what I get for asking a question before checking the latest news.  Thanks for the notification.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on August 23, 2012, 06:12:51 am
Yea i detected a few bugs already myself. I'll look for more as I go along
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Avalanche on August 23, 2012, 07:22:53 am
great patch so far.
But i wonder how phönix blade works out, allways Reraise seems pretty strong.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Swiss on September 01, 2012, 12:14:51 am
I know i mentioned this to Barren but I figured id put it here to see if anyone else has noticed or if I'm just talking nonsense.
I have used Heaven's Cloud a bunch on my bard, but have not seen it once slow a target.  I checked for immunity and i believe it may not be able to slow.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 01, 2012, 02:44:31 am
Checked it and the chance to add status is set to 0% currently. Will be fixed next version.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 02, 2012, 04:17:33 am
(Now let's see if I can both not hypocritically typo due to my constant inattention and actually be concise for once. Hmmm...this is going to need some type of secular miracle...just to pull off one.)

At present, I've only one suggestion for the next version of 138 at present, at least when it comes to suggestions that aren't more likely to need larger system changes, i.e. a version 139 already: Please move the "Defend" Support from Squire to Paladin.

I didn't really think about it given all the far more important things that we were discussing months ago before 138 came together, but "Defend" is even more unlikely to see any use now that "Concentrate" is both back and in the same set.

(This reminds me: Perhaps it should be noted in Concentrate's description that Blind negates it now.)

That is really saying something since I think "Defend" has seen literally 0% usage before throughout ARENA's entire history. As such, now it's looking at maybe i% usage if stays in the same set as freaking Concentrate. So it would really be for the best if it went to Paladin, especially then Paladin would at least be able to use a Support within its own skill set that isn't utterly redundant, ignoring desperation or quality concerns; let's similarly ignore how the AI tends to whore Defend status stupidly and how Nurse basically obviates it save for costing MP.

Additionally, it fits thematically more with Paladin as it is, given that Paladin is only class in all of ARENA that can actively add Defend through skills.

At the very least, it needs to not be in the same set as Concentrate if it's going to continue to have illusion of possibly being used; Equip Clothes actually can "compete" with Concentrate (by doing something entirely different), so that staying with Squire is fine.

(Now that I think about the Nurse thing, perhaps other alternatives like Samurai or Thief would be better since they too lack non-redundant Supports [and actually have C-EV, unlike Paladin].)

****

I'm trying not to "lie" about not making heavy suggestions, but I really have to ask something about that's been confusing me ever since 138 was revealed: Why was literally the only thing that changed about the three still-now Monk-only "headbands" the names?

I ask this less because no one commented on my suggestions about how to "fix" them twice, and more because I still have no idea what people actually think about them. The fact that only names changed, though, implies that people think they're fine...despite the fact that they've seldom seem use since they got relegated to Monk and its pretty much only ever Ribbon, now Chakra Band, that ever saw use.

So...yeah? What's the deal there? I can understand not touching certain things (read: Poles) given how much else was overhauled, but why touch that if you're only to touch the names to make them more...unisex?

(Also, I don't understand why you'd keep the weather graphics around if you went through the trouble of disabling their effects. That just seems like ripe for potential confusion. However, I'm utterly ambivalent about that, so I'm not going to kvetch about it.)

Quote from: Gaignun on August 23, 2012, 03:02:01 am
Make Bizen Boat M-Evadable.  While situational, it is brutally effective when the AI chooses to use it.  Mind you, it usually uses it when its opponent is charging, so it's going to bypass M-EV anyway.  Regardless, this will at least minimize its collateral damage, as well as give players the ability to guard against the new Mage Masher.


I pretty much concur with this between how much a Samurai's Bizen Boat can do and the fact that Mage Masher's Bizen Boat, while likely to becoming from units with lesser MA, is backed by damage. Comparatively, the only other item to both do damage and potentially damage MP is the Monster Dict, which only has more range over Mage Masher. Meanwhile, Mage Masher gets to be used with Two Swords & potentially get used with the pseudo-Concentrate of Hidden Knife or double it with itself, adds +1 Move, has more EV, effectively has more WP since Knives aren't split between PA & MA like Books/Tomes are and has a proc that isn't evadeable (unlike Magic Ruin coming off squishy, low-PA mages).

So, yeah, Bizen Boat, even if isn't "killer", seems like it should have M-EV. It would be consistent with the other offensive Draw Outs, even if it's not a direct; in that instance, though, Kiyomori would also need to become magickally evadeable, though that I'd actually get behind as well due to the huge boost Poison got going into 138.

Not a huge deal with way, but I just wanted to comment on that, especially no one else had yet.

(Ugh. This computer needs a break if it took that long to post.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 am
Headbands need a change, yes, and got neglected due to the number of changes. Same for the Monk class.

Defend... I'm not sure what I should do. It doesn't matter where the skill is, nobody will use it. I'm thinking to either remove it or remake it into something entirely if possible. It's probably possible to make it add status other than Defend, or add more than just Defend, for example.

I see no problems with Bizen Boat change, and it will probably be added unless someone puts up a good counter argument.

As for weather, I personally like the extra effects, even if they do nothing. Only thing I dislike is rain in DD, but I have no idea how to just change that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Swiss on September 02, 2012, 11:36:17 am
I have an idea about intial petrify with the stone gun.  I equipped stone guns on monks so i could see if a chakra band would start them off without the petrify status but it doesn't. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone who is immune to a status can start the game off with that status. Unless you think it would be to powerful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 02, 2012, 05:47:31 pm
(Nice to start another day with already being half-wasted.)

Might as well comment on this before I leave for at least a few hours.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 am
Headbands need a change, yes, and got neglected due to the number of changes. Same for the Monk class.


I suspected as much, but as I said, I think it can wait until 139 really. I just figured I'd ask since I was curious what was actually thought about them yet was still uncertain since no one had said anything and I'm not psychic, especially over the Internet.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 amDefend... I'm not sure what I should do. It doesn't matter where the skill is, nobody will use it. I'm thinking to either remove it or remake it into something entirely if possible. It's probably possible to make it add status other than Defend, or add more than just Defend, for example.


Also understandable, especially since as I mentioned, the AI tends to waste turns with Defend(ing) status. I mean, the AI tends to constantly use Nurse when it really "shouldn't" or rather doesn't need (that much) healing just because it adds Defend.

That said, I'm pretty sure you can add and/or change what status(es) the Defend Support adds to the self. It "should" be relatively easy too from what I remember of the couple instances someone brought it up...forever ago (says the person who still can't code at all).

At present, you have a bunch of options for dealing with it:

1. Ignore it for now and deal with it later - Your easiest and frankly "best" option at the moment since it takes the least effort and there are far more important things to focus on at present. Besides, it'd have "company" in the useless department what with Monster Talk being around and unused since the beginning as well (if for different reasons).

2. Remove it - The second easiest "solution", though it requires you editing the Master Guide in the Squire section when you don't really need to (unless you want to point out that Concentrate is negated by Blind now).

3. Give it to someone else unchanged - The worst "solution", so it would of course be the one that I originally suggested. All it would really do is make Defend look less impotent not having to measure to Concentrate (or Equip Clothes) and potentially give a class devoid of self-redundant Supports like Samurai or Paladin a (free) Support they could use (in case of desperate emergency).

4. Change it to add Defend and some other positive status - I'm relatively sure that you can change Defend so that it somehow adds another positive status in addition to Defend. I'm not entirely sure, though. Of course, even if it can, you have to figure out what positive status to add alongside Defend that a) isn't busted to able to add continually and free, which means something like Reraise is out, and b) if possible, won't have the AI eating up its actions as continually (or at least uselessly), which means Haste is out.

5. Change to add some positive status other than Defend - This is a sure option even if the above isn't possible. Even if the above is possible, though, this would still be the second trickiest since outside of the above things, you'd also have to find a status the AI would use it on itself at all, even while in Critical, period. The "easiest" seems like it would be Regen, but free, infinite Regen also has the problem of seeming overpowered. (This gives me an idea for Embargo though.)

6. Make coding changes to Defend status itself - What these changes would be or "should be", though, I cannot say.

All that obviousness out of the way I must admit it's probably best for you to leave it alone for now.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 amI see no problems with Bizen Boat change, and it will probably be added unless someone puts up a good counter argument.


Huzzah. I'm guessing that Kiyomori will stay as is, correct? I just want to confirm.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 02, 2012, 06:25:04 amAs for weather, I personally like the extra effects, even if they do nothing. Only thing I dislike is rain in DD, but I have no idea how to just change that.


Fair enough.

Quote from: Swiss on September 02, 2012, 11:36:17 am
I have an idea about intial petrify with the stone gun.  I equipped stone guns on monks so i could see if a chakra band would start them off without the petrify status but it doesn't. It just doesn't make sense to me that someone who is immune to a status can start the game off with that status. Unless you think it would be to powerful.


It would be too powerful. The other guns would pretty much not get used, save maybe the elemental guns solely for absorption purposes; the other two non-elemental guns, which barely see any use now, would definitely never see use.

Initial (and Always) status taking precedent has been like that since vanilla. Not that I'm saying that alone should be the reason it stays as is, but given that Initial: Petrify is the only thing balancing Stone Gun as it is...yeah. Also, I think if you changed Initial: Status to be vulnerable to getting Blocked, then it seems liked you'd inevitably change how Always: Status interacted with immunities as well. Phoenix Blade with the Slow aspect blocked would be busted; so would Genji Armor or Iron Boots with the Don't Move aspect blocked.

Besides, this would only really be a problem if the Initial: Petrify meant that your Block: Petrify aspect didn't work at all and thus the character was still vulnerable to Petrify after the fact, which isn't what happens.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on September 02, 2012, 08:38:06 pm
Could be just me but isn't Malestorm suppose to be water elemental in the scholar skillset? I did a gauntlet series for Otabo's High Tides a while back and his scholar used Malestorm healed the party. Its not listed as water elemental in the master's guide
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 02, 2012, 09:24:16 pm
(Maelstrom is indeed supposed to be Water elemental and isn't listed as such.)

I already pointed that out on the currently last page of the Download thread last night/early this morning though, alongside pretty much everything else that's wrong with the Master Guide in terms of just not matching the Changelog or stuff we discussed here.

There are probably more errors that are going unnoticed that can only be revealed by testing though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on September 02, 2012, 09:46:38 pm
Quote from: The Damned on September 02, 2012, 09:24:16 pm
(Maelstrom is indeed supposed to be Water elemental and isn't listed as such.)

I already pointed that out on the currently last page of the Download thread last night/early this morning though, alongside pretty much everything else that's wrong with the Master Guide in terms of just not matching the Changelog or stuff we discussed here.

There are probably more errors that are going unnoticed that can only be revealed by testing though.


Ahh I must have missed it. My bad Damned. Didn't mean to repeat what you said
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 02, 2012, 11:38:15 pm
(No need to apologize.)

It was easy to miss and it's not like repeating anything is verboten. I just wanted to point out that it's already been noted, just not in this thread.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: reinoe on September 03, 2012, 09:44:20 pm
I have a question about status interactions.

Let's say I have a Paladin equipped with Rune Blade, Flame Shield, Crystal Armor, Maximillian, and Cursed Ring

If I'm hit with the fire spell, I take double because of Cursed Ring, but then does it all heal because of Flame Shield?

Also what happens when and Undead unit get's KO when it has Re-Raise?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Eternal on September 03, 2012, 10:00:11 pm
In regards to Fire Shield, you'd heal 2x the damage. As for Undead, I'm not 100% positive. I'm fairly sure Undead prevents Reraise in Arena.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on September 03, 2012, 10:06:02 pm
undead you have a 100% chance of coming back (I believe cursed ring units are immune to crystal) and there is no double absorption in arena. flame shield and cursed ring combo does block out fire weakness yes
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 04, 2012, 11:40:12 am
Quote from: Eternal on September 03, 2012, 10:00:11 pm
In regards to Fire Shield, you'd heal 2x the damage.


Wrong.

If you read the Master Guide (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6483.0) under Elemental Absorption, it makes it very clear that anything that gives Absorb will also give both the Half and Weak properties, meaning Absorption will always heal 1x damage regardless of your other equipment.  I know it does because I harassed FFMaster for about 4-5 version releases until he included the goddamn line because it's otherwise undocumented.

QuoteAbsorb: Element
Anything labelled Absorb is always neutral. This means you cannot do Weak: Element and Absorb: Element to double the absorb. Oil Also falls under this restriction.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Swiss on September 04, 2012, 05:12:51 pm
I was wondering if MP switch is allowed because i think it is pretty cheap.  Its not in the master's guide, but i noticed in the team builder in the memcard gen it allows you to put it in, and apparently its a squire ability.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: reinoe on September 04, 2012, 10:10:44 pm
Speaking of the master's guide, I noticed that it's not in synch with the unit generator spreadsheet.  It's not really too far off but it's noticable to me because I like the Paladin skillset and there are things that don't match up there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 08, 2012, 11:19:37 pm
(Well, it would look like reinoe's observation got addressed by Fantactic, maybe, so I'll just ask something else since it was brought up.)

When it comes to the new Oil and the weakness it generates, does that weakness override Absorption? Or does any absorbed element still get absorbed the usual rate if the unit is covered in Oil?

Similarly, if the absorption works regularly, then does the Oil status still dissipate?

Quote from: Swiss on September 04, 2012, 05:12:51 pm
I was wondering if MP switch is allowed because i think it is pretty cheap.  Its not in the master's guide, but i noticed in the team builder in the memcard gen it allows you to put it in, and apparently its a squire ability.


MP Switch isn't allowed at present.

I'm not sure why it even shows up in the Memory Card Generator since Squire doesn't have it in the patch itself. The only thing Squire has at present that it shouldn't have is Masamune, but MP Switch doesn't show up in its RSMs, so I'm not sure what you're seeing there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 09, 2012, 12:19:18 am
As memory serves, a unit with Oil in Arena should ignore Absorb, Half, Null entirely and force only-Weak: Elements onto the target, regardless of previous existing elemental affinities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: reinoe on September 09, 2012, 06:37:11 pm
So far to date, I've never seen anyone get poisoned by Wiznaibus even though it has a 15% proc rate according to the Master Guide.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 09, 2012, 06:56:31 pm
I'm betting I forgot to do something like set a status add% again.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Swiss on September 10, 2012, 12:54:30 am
it doesn't say it but it allows you to put it in the reactions section, and under jp used it states the jp used as from a squire
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 11, 2012, 05:58:39 am
(So after this gets posted, I'll be gone until at least Friday afternoon, probably longer.)

Something that slipped my mind when it came to that massive list I posted in the download thread (that might have been better suited for this one). It doesn't help that it's not terribly important....

That said, I keep getting the impression that Feather Boots need a bit more of a boost what with Diamond Armlet now Absorbing Earth. Even if Diamond Armlet only Nulled Earth instead, that would kinda be stepping on Feather Boots' toes when it already has a lot to compete with, especially since at least four other things cancel Earth, including the Float Movement; of those, only the helm is impermanent.

The only problem is that I'm not really sure what else you could reasonably give it since you already gave it Move +1 and Immune: Don't Move in addition to Always: Float.

Perhaps it needs nothing, especially since I think it's seem at least some use as opposed to some other shoes. (Has anyone used Red Shoes? I honestly can't think of any team.)

Still, it having more competition now reminded me that perhaps it needs more.

***

This is unrelated, but I also just reminded something else I had meant to mention: If Oil does indeed overcome elemental absorptions and everything else, then it seems rather necessary that Item Attribute 1F, the one gives neutral all elements, needs to also have "Immune: Oil". At present, nothing else is making you weak to an element if you weren't already weak to it aside from Cursed Ring or, if a mage wants to use Equip Shield for some reason, one of the elemental shields with Rainbow Staff.

Again, not really necessary perhaps, especially since Diamond Armlet got Immune: Oil as did 108 Gems, but it was something that popped into my head.

Quote from: Swiss on September 10, 2012, 12:54:30 am
it doesn't say it but it allows you to put it in the reactions section, and under jp used it states the jp used as from a squire


Weird. Then again, I don't think I've ever touched that memory card function, so I have no idea how it actually works.

Regardless, it's not allowed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 11, 2012, 07:56:24 am
I have no idea about the MP Switch problem. Might be on Xif's end. Try putting in other RSM's like Non-charge, Move+3 and Blade Grasp. If they are saying it should be on Squire, that pretty much confirms that the bug is on the spreadsheet. Otherwise... I dunno, I'm sure I never gave Squire MP Switch ever, and it's not on my current ISO.

Masamune was there because I was testing it before use ages back, and forgot to remove it from the skillset. I can't actually test the Draw Out skillset directly due to bugs, so I normally just add skills to the Squire skillset to test and then remove them.

The idea about giving Immune Oil is a good idea I think. And yes, maybe Feather Boots is slightly weaker than most of the other accessories. I think we can do something for Battle Boots/Red Shoes next version though.

EDIT: The plan is to deconstruct ALMA 3/4 and transform it from bloatware to something that only extends the item attributes. I have never used either one though, so I don't know which one to work off. Any help would be appreciated.

EDIT2: I'll get to work on bug cleaning tomorrow if I have time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Barren on September 11, 2012, 09:34:31 am
Are bards still allowed to equip robes? Cause I know in Xif's spreadsheet that it says Bards can equip robes. Even without equip clothes or magegear
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 11, 2012, 09:43:14 am
Bards have had Robes checked for a while, but I always forget to remove it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on September 12, 2012, 02:29:47 am
I've used Red Shoes, and IMO it's fine, but a buff/revamp never hurts. It isn't used as often as Battle Boots because mages have range, so the extra move isn't as important. Red Shoes is basically for Draw Out users, since they need to be closer to the opponent to do damage than the average mage.

On a completely unrelated note, Wall MP cost down to 15-18? It has not seen play in a very long time, and part of that may be due to the high MP cost (or it may be due to AI being bad with Protect/Shell).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: reinoe on September 12, 2012, 02:32:20 am
Are my eyes deceiving me or is "CURE 4 AOE =0" on the Master Guide?  I'm making a team with priests right now and I'm switching out Cure 4 for Cure 3.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: FFMaster on September 12, 2012, 04:42:28 am
Cure 4 is AoE 0.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on September 12, 2012, 12:55:52 pm
How does merging Battle Boots and Red Shoes into one accessory that gives 1 Move, 1 PA, and 1 MA sound?  Unless the unit is a Geomancer or is sporting some novelty build, this new accessory is still only going to be used for one stat.  This will free up item space for something else, like Genji Armor, which currently does not have space of its own.

Also, Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet need EV buffs.  They were left behind (as if they weren't behind already!) with the mantle buffs. How does the following sound until these things are overhauled entirely?

Power Wrist: 1 PA, 20 P-EV, 10 M-EV
Genji Gauntlet: 1 MA, 10 P-EV, 20 M-EV

This puts them in line with Vanish Mantle and Small Mantle, giving the player a choice between bonus damage and elemental immunity.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dokurider on September 12, 2012, 08:49:14 pm
Houkouton should be free considering Spin Fist is free and has better AoE and better damage potential. At best, they're roughly equal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on September 14, 2012, 03:30:02 pm
Back with another (fabulous) idea: reinvent Black Magic's Death to deal light damage with a chance of death.  Something like:

Death: 5 Rng, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 24 MP, Dark element, Dmg_F(MA*8), 20% Add: Dead, 200 JP

This would make it like Dia, but with more damage and a better status proc.  Keeping these advantages in check is its higher MP cost (4x more costly), higher JP cost (50 more), arguably less useful element for offense (Dark), and being on a skill set without a resurrection ability (Black Magic).

What is key to making this ability attractive is not its Dead proc, which, at 20%, is going to be unreliable, but its 0 CT.  This would make it Black Magic's only 0 CT ability, inviting people toward it for its instantaneous damage, Black Costumes be damned.  Its high MP cost is going to keep SP-stacked units from spamming the skill to proc Dead all over the opposing team, too.

Also, is anyone comfortable with lowering the JP cost of Lore's all-map spells from 200 to 150?  This would make it easier for Lore users to bring more than one spell into battle lest they encounter teams that absorb their chosen element.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 14, 2012, 05:09:21 pm
I don't see what purpose that serves other than making Black Magic the bar-none go-to source of offensive magic.  It already has skills with meager CTs (3-5) across a wide array of elements, can bypass Reflect, can bypass the Faith system, can hit for focused or area damage, etc.  One of the Wizard's few real remaining drawbacks is that it has no instant skills.  Death probably needs its CT shortened or JP cost dropped a bit because 7 CT / 200 JP is a tad silly for it compared to other skills in the skillset, but it already fills a unique role in the Black Magic skillset as being the resident tank-buster - the one skill Black Magic has that ignores Shell and Magic DefendUP almost entirely, similarly to how the Water series can ignore Reflect and the Back series can ignore Faith (at the cost of considering Un-Fury instead).

Seems like you want to throw out a skill with a unique role just to make a Dia clone in a skillset that's already been heavily buffed and has very few remaining drawbacks.  Expecting people to use skillsets like Draw Out or White Magic when they want an instant-gratification MA based skill?  Pfft, let me just tie their all-in-one mage up with a fancy little bow while I'm at it, too.


As for lowering Lore's JP costs... I don't see any harm in lowering the map-wide ones from 200 to 100-150 range.  Good Lore teams require at least two elements to function properly anyway, and aren't particularly strong, so it pushes them in the right direction and gives them a bit more leeway to function correctly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 14, 2012, 06:00:53 pm
(As I said before, take your time, FFMaster. I can't help you with ALMA and you'll need to double check my list, but I'll try to think up something to boost Feather Boots since I brought it up.)

By Odin's Beard, no.

Not only are instant death techniques that add Death--Lava Ball gets a pass because its terrain only appears on two maps--while doing less than 100% HP damage quite unfair, but if anything, it's Dia that needs "nerfed" rather than Death that needs to buffed; admittedly, I hate such techniques just like I dislike Shock techniques. Death perhaps still needs to be buffed a bit, especially if Odin is now doing damage and is basically a larger AoE yet much slower and expensive version (and thus "fairer" version) of what you're asking for. Emulating Dia is not the way to do it however since there's really no reason, at the very least, that Dia should be instant and immune to Silence now that it's on White Magic(k) rather than in Paladin's skill set; it should probably be more expensive too MP-wise.

Aside from that, Lore's JP cost also doesn't need to be lower IMO. Running into a team that can absorb your element is the price you pay for being able to attack and heal with an unavoidable attack that hits entire map and that can be repeated via Counter Magic(k), especially if you're only using one such element. What exactly are units with Lore spending their JP on that they can't sacrifice to afford to spend 200 more JP yet could spend 150 more JP?

Quote from: FFMaster on September 11, 2012, 07:56:24 am
Masamune was there because I was testing it before use ages back, and forgot to remove it from the skillset. I can't actually test the Draw Out skillset directly due to bugs, so I normally just add skills to the Squire skillset to test and then remove them.


Oh, I see. I had suspected as much, but I was still going under the impression that Draw Out did it's "wig out if not a skill with only other Draw Out spells" thing, so I just thought it was a straight-up error.

So noted.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 11, 2012, 07:56:24 am
The idea about giving Immune Oil is a good idea I think. And yes, maybe Feather Boots is slightly weaker than most of the other accessories.


Yay. I can actually have good ideas somewhere at least.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 11, 2012, 07:56:24 amI think we can do something for Battle Boots/Red Shoes next version though.


I actually don't see much of a problem with either of those. Yeah, they could be "stronger" and Red Shoes is pretty much limited to Samurai as CT5Holy pointed out, but I'd still say they're more useful than something like Germinas Shoes or Sprint Shoes. I honestly can't remember anyone using Germinas Shoes or Sprint Shoes while I'm relatively sure that people have used both Battle Boots and Red Shoes.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 12, 2012, 12:55:52 pm
How does merging Battle Boots and Red Shoes into one accessory that gives 1 Move, 1 PA, and 1 MA sound?  Unless the unit is a Geomancer or is sporting some novelty build, this new accessory is still only going to be used for one stat.  This will free up item space for something else, like Genji Armor, which currently does not have space of its own.


Even though I don't have a problem with Battle Boots and Red Shoes, I kinda like that suggestion.

...Too bad "we" can't get away with it because of those meddling Knives and their limited Item Attributes.

At present, Battle Boots and Red Shoes have to share their Item Attributes with Katar and Orichalcum respectively. So anything we do to or the other affects the knives and it seems rather unfair to screw over two items that just got buffed and have yet to be tested. So, really, if you trying to overhaul Battle Boots' and Red Shoes'  Item Attributes, then you're going to have simultaneously come up with new knives, even if they don't use the new Item Attributes that those accessories do.

Quote from: Gaignun on September 12, 2012, 12:55:52 pm
Also, Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet need EV buffs.  They were left behind (as if they weren't behind already!) with the mantle buffs. How does the following sound until these things are overhauled entirely?

Power Wrist: 1 PA, 20 P-EV, 10 M-EV
Genji Gauntlet: 1 MA, 10 P-EV, 20 M-EV

This puts them in line with Vanish Mantle and Small Mantle, giving the player a choice between bonus damage and elemental immunity.


I'm pretty ambivalent to this though, if only because I don't think they need quite that much evasion since it's not like Vanish Mantle or Small Mantle are still seeing that much use with absorption trumps nullification.

(Or are those mantles seeing use? I basically can't watch videos on Youtube at this point for some reason and the Team Submission thread shifts around too much.)

Quote from: Dokurider on September 12, 2012, 08:49:14 pm
Houkouton should be free considering Spin Fist is free and has better AoE and better damage potential. At best, they're roughly equal.


Uh...Spin Fist isn't "free", unless you're counting anything < 151 as "free" for some reason. If you instead mean that Houkouton should be 150 JP instead of 200 JP, then I could maybe see that. Houkouton isn't completely outclassed anyway because a) it can't evaded unlike Spin Fist and b) apparently Monk skills shouldn't be quadratic anymore anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dokurider on September 14, 2012, 06:35:26 pm
I'm referring to MP cost, Damned. I never said Houkouton is strictly worse than Spin Fist, they are roughly equal. It's just one is free and the other isn't.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on September 14, 2012, 06:37:42 pm
I don't think Dia needs a nerf. It isn't used much and is for the most part an anti-sandbag tool. You have to do a lot to make it relevant damage-wise, and even then it's still subject to Faith and Setiemson. Ok it might see more use now that it's in White Magic, but that still doesn't change the fact that its damage is far from great, and it's not AoE, either.

Lore is not subject to Counter Flood or Counter Magic.

Shoes usage is something like Battle Boots ~= Sprint Shoes > Germinas Boots > Red Shoes > Feather Boots.

Spin Fist still does better damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: The Damned on September 14, 2012, 06:48:28 pm
(*facepalms*)

Oh, MP-wise. I think I just automatically thought you were speaking of JP cost because I vaguely remember Spin Fist being free in 1.3 or something. My mistake.

Anyway, I'm still not entirely sure that it should be "free" since its unavoidable and multi-hitting, though really it's only the unavoidable aspect that matters in this comparison. I could see it taking less MP, though.

Quote from: CT5Holy on September 14, 2012, 06:37:42 pm
I don't think Dia needs a nerf. It isn't used much and is for the most part an anti-sandbag tool. You have to do a lot to make it relevant damage-wise, and even then it's still subject to Faith and Setiemson. Ok it might see more use now that it's in White Magic, but that still doesn't change the fact that its damage is far from great, and it's not AoE, either.


It's not like I'm saying it's broken on White Magick or anything, at least I haven't since Raven corrected me about its damage versus Holy a while back. I guess I just don't see why White Magick should have anti-sandbag power in the first place, especially instantly and for so little a cost.

Quote from: CT5Holy on September 14, 2012, 06:37:42 pmLore is not subject to Counter Flood or Counter Magic.


Ugh. 0-2 already. Hurray!

Wonder why the hell I thought it was despite checking the entirety of ARENA last week. Probably just because I noticed that "Severe Weather" team or whatever has Counter Magic on its units with Lore and I never use it myself, so.... Still not much of an excuse.

Quote from: CT5Holy on September 14, 2012, 06:37:42 pmShoes usage is something like Battle Boots ~= Sprint Shoes > Germinas Boots > Red Shoes > Feather Boots.


Really? Hunh. I honestly haven't seen anyone use Germinas Boots.

No one using Iron Boots anymore either? And, well, Rubber Shoes still tends to glossed over.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: CT5Holy on September 14, 2012, 06:55:11 pm
Ok, maybe Battle Boots ~= Sprint Shoes > Germinas Boots ~= Red Shoes ~= Iron Boots > Feather Boots=Rubber Shoes is a bit more accurate (I think). =P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Dokurider on September 14, 2012, 07:13:37 pm
QuoteAnyway, I'm still not entirely sure that it should be "free" since its unavoidable and multi-hitting, though really it's only the unavoidable aspect that matters in this comparison. I could see it taking less MP, though.


If it isn't free, it should be 1, maybe 2 MP since it's easily less effective than the other -tons and is still somehow costs twice as much. Unevadablity only takes you so far, and it's mere presence doesn't alway justify a MP tag.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [HUMANS]
Post by: Gaignun on September 14, 2012, 08:14:53 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on September 14, 2012, 05:09:21 pmSeems like you want to throw out a skill with a unique role just to make a Dia clone in a skillset that's already been heavily buffed and has very few remaining drawbacks.


I want to throw out a skill that sees zero use and needs to be made nigh-unusable to be balanced.  You can't make instant-death spells viable in this kind of competitive play, nor can you for an AI with a dysfunctional risk-reward system.  See: 1.37 Odin.

Death isn't unique for tank-busting.  The resident tank-buster is Oracle, unless you're talking about tanks which stack M-EV, in which case neither Black Magic nor Yin Yang Magic are effective.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizExpecting people to use skillsets like Draw Out or White Magic when they want an instant-gratification MA based skill?  Pfft, let me just tie their all-in-one mage up with a fancy little bow while I'm at it, too.


Even you know you're exaggerating here.

Quote from: The_DamnedEven though I don't have a problem with Battle Boots and Red Shoes, I kinda like that suggestion.

...Too bad "we" can't get away with it because of those meddling Knives and their limited Item Attributes.


Ah, too bad.  It's something to keep in mind if knives ever get shuffled around, at least.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 14, 2012, 08:19:27 pm
Updated thread title to involve item discussions as well. There's no reason why it should only affect abilities/stats when everything affects the balance of each other.

Houkouton is pretty outclassed by Spin Fist, I agree. I have no ideas how both can exist without the other one obviously being better though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on September 15, 2012, 12:03:55 am
Houkouton can still be useful. Until PA>15, Houkouton is the better damage dealer, so it's good for Tanks, Evaders, Speedsters and Ninjas with Attitude. Plus being an unevadable AoE is nice. The problem is that it's 10 MP cost is just murder, especially considering the other -tons have the same MP cost for more damage with more range and for less JP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on September 15, 2012, 12:34:20 am
(Thanks for the thread title change, FFMaster.)

Actually, since we're talking about Monk, can you clarify whether their abilities are still "supposed" to be quadratic or not in the first place, FFMaster?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 19, 2012, 02:31:27 am
Hate to rain on everyone's parade, but here's an actual problem:

Nether Magic is using the wrong UnFury Constant, according to the Master Guide.  It should be using (145-CasFury)*(145-TarFury) as UnFaith does, because this also allows it to replicate the boundaries of the current Faith and Fury constants, but is instead using (135-CasFury)*(135-TarFury).  Not only does this result in unnecessary mechanical inconsistency between Fury and Faith mechanics, but it also results in the Nether series of skills being noticeably weaker for it, losing roughly 22% effectiveness in a 70 v 40 scenario when compared to UnFaith, Faith, and Fury-based skills using the same criteria.   This needs to be fixed pretty much immediately.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on September 19, 2012, 11:48:56 pm
Ultima's MP cost is way too high. Bio 2 has the same Y value for 12 MP. For 35 MP, you can use Zodiac and Bahamut. The only advantages Ultima has is unevadability and no faith modification.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 26, 2012, 02:44:21 am
Here's a current log of what I've done and what I plan to do(Doesn't include the bug fixes)

Balance
- Ultima MP cost reduced to 20
- Dia is now stopped by Silence
- Spellbreaker formula changed to MA*WP damage
- Cover Fire Y reduced to 60
- Poison JP increased to 100
- All Geomancy becomes Enemy only
- Meiton/Fuuton/Suiton Y reduced to 9
- Berserked units can now use reactions
- Added Movement: Warpath - Adds 2 Brave on Move action, Monk base, 250 JP
- Added Movement: Pilgrimage - Adds 2 Faith on Move action, Priest base, 250 JP



TODO

Test Frog AI
Life Song/Wiznaibus add status
Equipment break bugs? Needs further testing to see if it's an actual bug or not
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 26, 2012, 03:28:57 am
For Cover Fire, reducing the Y to 60 doesn't do much, just reduces damage by 10-30 points.  I recommend changing it from (1...3)*(PA+70) to (1...6)*(PA+25)

I recommend this for a few reasons.  Cover Fire currently in a lot of ways is like a random Comet - it does mostly stat-independent damage, but how much it does is left to chance.  What the above does is leave the "optimal" damage about the same, but it does two other things.    The "average" damage is more controlled because the center of gravity changes from 2*(PA+70) to 3-4*(PA+25).  The damage between these is more or less even, but it's a lot less likely to hit the 'peak' damage, so Cover Fire stays good while being a lot less swingy overall.  It also makes your PA factor in a lot more - If you stack 20+ PA, instead of only doing 20-60 more damage, you do 20-120 more instead, giving you more incentive to buff up.  (Considering 6*45 = 270, you could make the constant value as low as 20 for 6*40 = 240.  This would make the damage of a 20 PA Cover Fire user doing full damage about equal to what Gaignun displayed earlier, but make that max damage half as likely to happen while also making PA more important.  Overall improvement unless you really want the skill to pretty much ignore stats, at which point you may as well just make it 1...3*65 and just remove the PA element entirely.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on September 26, 2012, 04:46:39 am
(And I return to not actually help with anything again.)

I agree with Raven that Cover Fire needs to be centered out and since I'm both lazy and incompetent as well as confident that his math is correct, I'll just say he has my support on the specific change above.

I'm not really sure what the hell Kagesougi's deal is since apparently that's overpowered or something. I'm still not able to watch the videos (easily) due to Youtube still being magickally horrible for me. (Hurray!)

Quote from: FFMaster on September 26, 2012, 02:44:21 am
Here's a current log of what I've done and what I plan to do(Doesn't include the bug fixes)

Balance
- Ultima MP cost reduced to 20
- Dia is now stopped by Silence
- Spellbreaker formula changed to MA*WP damage
....
- Poison JP increased to 100
- All Geomancy becomes Enemy only
- Meiton/Fuuton/Suiton Y reduced to 9
- Berserked units can now use reactions
- Added Movement: Warpath - Adds 2 Brave on Move action, Monk base, 250 JP
- Added Movement: Pilgrimage - Adds 2 Faith on Move action, Priest base, 250 JP


These look good overall, especially the Berserked units being able to use reactions, even if that's potentially abusive with Concentrate being back.... Warpath and Pilgrimage should be equally...interesting.

I'm not really sure why Poison's accuracy needs to be upped, but it's not by that much, so meh. Similarly, I still think Dia should be weakened a bit more, chiefly making it so that it's not instant, but since everyone else seems ambivalent or fine with its current level of power, I'm not going to push that. I'm utterly ambivalent to Geomancy (and Counter Flood) becoming Enemy Only; I kinda "liked" it being able to hit allies, but that's probably because I wanted people to get screwed over by Counter Flood like I tended to get screwed over by it (even when I was the one using it).

That said, I have to agree with Dokurider that Ultima seemed quite weak at 30 MP after doing the math in my head. Knocking off a third of the MP cost helps, but it's still seems...kinda weak. Maybe increase its Y from 9 to 10? Because right now, I don't see any reason to use it over Comet really since Comet is way faster, way cheaper, and completely independent of MA. The only things Ultima has going for it are its AoE (unreliable between its slow-ish CT, the way the computer acts and potential backfires) and having higher potential damage on single target (after the user has MA > 11); I guess Ultima is also affected by Zodiac whereas Comet might not be.

Regardless, despite allowing for Berserk to use reactions now, you're going to still going to have it deny Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up gain, right? Similarly, you should probably check to make sure that it denies Pilgrimage's and, more importantly, Warpath's activations.

Quote from: FFMaster on September 26, 2012, 02:44:21 amTODO

Test Frog AI
Life Song/Wiznaibus add status
Equipment break bugs? Needs further testing to see if it's an actual bug or not


This bug has been around since Vanilla. I don't know what causes it, especially since I still know very little about coding, and it doesn't really seem like anyone's looked into it after all this time.

That said, if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that for some reason the game is unable to check that equipment's been destroyed until after the attack phase stops, hence why things are capable of being broken "twice" with Two Swords. Also, it's probably unrelated, but I can't imagine that the Breaks doubling as normal attacks when the equipment is broken exactly helps.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 26, 2012, 08:10:05 am
Ah ok, it's a bug that has been around since vanilla. That... doesn't really narrow it down lol.

As for Warpath/Pilgrimage, they are not disabled by anything currently. If needed, I can add the check for Berserk or other things. It works, but is shoddily coded, and the routine is in a very odd place, but was the only location that I could find. I'm personally not expecting much from these Movements personally, they are a very slow way to gain power, and there is a negative when you get attacked back as well.

Ultima will definitely need more tweaking, but I want to do this slowly or we may end up with the Double Ultima win teams again =p

Poison accuracy isn't being increased, the JP is.

Another TODO - fix constants for UnFury.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on September 26, 2012, 06:19:41 pm
(Sigh. I really need to pay more attention to everything.)

Understandable on all fronts. I was mostly asking the Warpath thing for consistency sake, not because I thought it was something you would be specifically doing or even anything that would be "broken". Maybe a bit overpowered depending, but given that Initial: Berserk units barely tend to last three turns, much less fifteen, I doubt it will end up being much of a deal. This especially when the AI is still going to try to cure Berserk at its earliest possible convenience anyway.

****

Speaking of "TODO" stuff, I'm guessing this means that the Monk formulas will stay quadratic for now then given your lack of comment on them.

Also, did you ever figure out what the problem with Hawk's Eye was?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 26, 2012, 07:29:08 pm
Monk formulas will remain unchanged for 1 more version. I have a few rough ideas for different formulas, but that will come later.

I actually have no idea what the problem with Hawk's Eye is. I just remade formula 2D to work with multiple stats(which will work better in the long term as well)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on September 26, 2012, 08:24:37 pm
Quote from: The Damned on September 26, 2012, 04:46:39 amI'm not really sure what the hell Kagesougi's deal is since apparently that's overpowered or something. I'm still not able to watch the videos (easily) due to Youtube still being magickally horrible for me. (Hurray!)


It's not really.  You can combine with with Ninjato to do slightly more Attack damage than you would otherwise because you ignore the SPD component, meaning a fully-maxed Ninja has 4 more XA with Kagesougi than it does with the Attack command.  It's not really outpacing the damage other units can inflict, though, and you can simply remove the Ninja Knife (the one that gives +1 PA) to reduce the PA stack by 2 and basically make the difference between Kagesougi and the normal Attack command nil. 

Though, I really don't think that's necessary, since without a huge PA stack on a Ninja there's otherwise no difference between Kagesougi and Attack, and it helps them circumvent the weakness of their weapon type at a JP cost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on September 27, 2012, 01:47:20 am
Unless there are any major debates, 138d will be released tomorrow. If someone can make Monk nice on the restriction that only the current formulas are used, I might also add that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 04, 2012, 09:51:35 pm
(Didn't see the Monk thing until now. Oh well....)

Anyway, before I forget again, something else I noticed was that Rainbow Staff still says it's All elements when it isn't/shouldn't be. I think that there was something else, but I've forgotten considering how much real life is sucking right now.

Regardless, are we allowed to start thinking about/suggesting things for 139? Or it is too early to ask? (Or do you think that there might need to be a 138e?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 08, 2012, 11:47:15 pm
Suggestions for the next big version.

1)  Add "Don't Move" to the list of statuses Nameless dance can Inflict,  right now it isn't even valid as an annoyance

2)  Add a support ability to allow non Monks to equip monk only headbands or add them to "equip clothing".

3)  More weapon evasion on scarves

4)  New skill for Basic skill   Target self,  heal 1/5HP Add Berserk.




Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 09, 2012, 12:53:40 am
Multi hit specials don't work for procs. Holy Bracelet will only proc once.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 14, 2012, 02:06:58 am
I was looking at the Master Guide and I was wondering: what's the difference between Null: water and Immune: water?  Another question I have is: do guns always hit at 100% regardless of shields or mantles?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 14, 2012, 05:54:50 am
Null and immune are the same in terms of definition. FFM probably left it there by accident. But I'm sure he wouldn't panic over that as long as people get that it means this or that blocks a certain element or two.

As far as guns, unless you have projectile guard then guns will always hit. Not even abandon can save you from guns. That's why we have projectile guard
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 14, 2012, 03:30:19 pm
Pilgrimage works properly. There just isn't a cue for the +2 Faith. If you look at units with Pilgrimage, their Faith does indeed increase.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 14, 2012, 03:39:52 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on October 14, 2012, 03:30:19 pm
Pilgrimage works properly. There just isn't a cue for the +2 Faith. If you look at units with Pilgrimage, their Faith does indeed increase.


Sometimes you just have to pause the videos to see for yourself or notice the damage increasing from the magical guns. It is working as CT5Holy pointed out, just gotta look closely
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 19, 2012, 06:52:54 am
Thanks for the heads up Doku. I'll have to decide what to do for Holy Lance next version then.

Malroth: 1, 2 and 3 sounds fine to me. Not sure about 4, I think the AI will not use it. The AI sees berserk as a bad status after all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on October 19, 2012, 01:03:03 pm
If you really want self-berserk, add 1.3 Scream minus the innocent proc. The AI <3s haste.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2012, 01:14:27 pm
Can we just add Cloths to Equip Polearm and Harps to Equip Magegear while we're at it?

Equip Clothing generally sucks but Headbands gives them an actual option to make the skill worth buying.  Equip Magegear sucks but Harps are awesome and makes the skill worth buying.  Equip Polearm is already kind of good but its the best place to fit Cloths and it finishes up the things that can't be Equip X'd well enough.

Pretty sure the AI won't use a Self-Berserk no matter what you do.  Also, if Self-Berserk inflicts any other Status (required to get them to use it most likely), Immune: Berserk gear allows you to bypass and simply use it as a low-cost buff move.  Which... may or not be fine, but is kind of silly considering Squire already has access to Yell for self-buffing.  There's not much point to it, really.  (Though, we could give Berserk units Evasion back at this point.  They still kind of suck and are properly balanced since their high DPS is no longer 100% unique to them.)

Don't see much of a need for giving Nameless Dance Don't Move (the times I've wanted to use it, it did its job well), you just can't sit there with Nameless Dance and expect it to hand you the game the way Wiz used to like to let it.  You have to actively apply pressure to the opponent, not try to wall out until they're Status-Crippled.  All adding Don't Move does is give me a lower chance of inflicting the actually good Status that Nameless Dance offers (Darkness, Silence, and Slow), all of which are more crippling than Don't Move.  Straight up hard-nerf.  The only way this could possibly make the skill "better" is if it ends up fucking the opponent's AI the way Stop infliction used to.

Better suggestion: Use my old idea from a long time ago that Eternal stole from me for Parted Ways and have Oil seal Reactions.  This is far more useful than Don't Move because it makes Oil a useful status to any team even if they don't use Elemental weapons and limits the opponent's ability to fight back in a way not offered by the other three Statuses and without reducing the chances of inflicting them.  It also makes Oil itself slightly less shitty by giving it a bit of utility to compliment its damage boosting capability.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 19, 2012, 05:32:51 pm
Darkness and Silence are supposed to be the good results from nameless dance????
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 19, 2012, 05:55:26 pm
...Darkness in Arena is an incredibly strong status and Silence is good against any team that uses magic for even a lynchpin healer role, so kind of.

Unless you think disabling units entirely and essentially doubling your HP are bad things.  In which case you're a derp.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 19, 2012, 06:44:47 pm
Yeah but every caster in existance carries silence immunity and Darkness immunity is almost as common for the melee combatants not to mention both statuses are completely worthless applied to the wrong archetype.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 19, 2012, 07:13:09 pm
Just did a recording and something seems to be wrong with Projectile Guard. It reads 100% hit with a blast gun  even though the evasion rate should be 60-30% chance of hitting. I'll upload the video either tonight and tomorrow
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 20, 2012, 11:34:50 pm
(I was still under the impression that Projectile Guard wasn't supposed to or just couldn't block the Spellguns since they're, you know, magick. Of course, if Projectile Guard is supposed to do that, then it's been "broken" for a lot longer than 138 since I'm pretty sure I got shot in the face every damn time I had Projectile Guard against those things.)

Hmm...I would have sworn that I posted in here in response to Malroth's suggestions..., but then I remembered that I didn't want to post when I was probably going to eat up an hour doing some huge ass post that could wait. Well, screw that. I don't exactly have to suggest some of my changes while answer something, even if the "Headbands" should be part of "Equip Clothes" is relevant.

Quote from: Malroth on October 08, 2012, 11:47:15 pm
Suggestions for the next big version.

1)  Add "Don't Move" to the list of statuses Nameless dance can Inflict,  right now it isn't even valid as an annoyance

2)  Add a support ability to allow non Monks to equip monk only headbands or add them to "equip clothing".

3)  More weapon evasion on scarves

4)  New skill for Basic skill   Target self,  heal 1/5HP Add Berserk.


1. As Raven already said, adding Don't Move would ultimately have the effect of making Nameless Dance worse and more annoying than actually better. Sure, Don't Move & Poison could eventually destroy the few teams that rely (almost) entirely on up-close damage to do anything. With the addition of another status, however, you have less of a chance of hitting both and hitting the, according to you, "useless" statuses of Darkness, Silence and, if you're not using an element that isn't Holy or Dark, Oil than that. Nameless Dance really doesn't need more statuses since "Separate [ Anything]" tends to suck as it is.

If mages almost always having something to Block Silence is a problem, then bring another unit with Steal Accessory or Armor Break (or both). You can't really complain about not taking advantage of Darkness (outside of your Dancing unit) when pretty much the only teams that block Darkness are the ones using Grand Cross and incidentally the increasingly fewer that use Angel Ring. As Oil, yeah, it should probably prevent Reactions since it still disappates on elemental hit and now properly disappates on death.

(That said, having Oil do that would make Hawk's Eye even stronger and I'm already rather wary of that thing.)


2. All the Equip X skills are taken up already, though I suppose FFMaster could probably take one of the unused Supports like Secret Hunt and change into one. Anyway, just assuming that we have eight Equip Xs "only" to work with still, then I'm actually kind of wary of letting Equip Clothing get Headbands/Ribbons, at least as they are now. Even with an increase in JP cost, allowing Equip Clothing to get that would kinda obviate Equip Armor's role given how both Helmets and Armor in ARENA are concerned with status protection. Giving that to Equip Clothing would meant having status protection and elemental "protection"/absorption so easily on the same unit, which doesn't seem like it would be for "the best". This is especially true when it furthers screws over Robes (unless someone wants an absurd MP boost I suppose between Robe of Lords and +80 MP "Headband) and then still has to compete with being in the same set as Concentrate. I'd actually feel "better" about putting Headbands into the already expensive Equip Armor since then everything in it would still prevent statuses, even if perhaps too much due to Ribbon and Cachusha having so many just by themselves; still, that seems "better" than adding more elemental absorption into the mix when Shields & Accessories already cover that. That or adding Headbands into Equip Shield since Headbands are essentially just shields against status.

Of course, as I said above, I'd rather change Headbands first before I really comment on any of this and some of the changes I'd suggest would be to drop the HP and shuffle the statuses in terms of numbers.

(As for Equip Magegear getting Harps and Equip Polearms getting Cloths, I'm still ambivalent. Besides vaguely recalling that FFMaster himself was still hesitant about it, I still think Harps need some type of overhaul so the ones that aren't Bloody Strings are worth using and Equip Polearms is already decent even if Poles likely need a boost still.)


3. I can get behind this, though I can't really see them getting more than 20% W-EV. They probably shouldn't have more than 15% though, especially if they become able to be equipped by classes other than Dancers.


4. The AI won't use it as the others as have said since even though Berserk is supposed to be a neutral status, the AI supposed won't use it because it considers it solely a negative status for some reason. (It's probably because of the loss of control.)


There are at least half a dozen things I wanted to talk about as well, but they can wait at least another week.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 20, 2012, 11:44:12 pm
Quote from: Malroth on October 19, 2012, 06:44:47 pm
Yeah but every caster in existance carries silence immunity and Darkness immunity is almost as common for the melee combatants not to mention both statuses are completely worthless applied to the wrong archetype.


You know, that's the theory, except if you actually play the game you can see that's not what happens because people don't understand how powerful Darkness is and a lot of casters forego Silence for better builds simply because Silence is a very uncommon status... due to the fact everyone goes "Oh every mage protects from Silence so I won't run it."  Your mindset makes Silence uncommon and in turn makes the protection not worth running in turn making Silence very powerful.  Darkness protection isn't commonly obtainable on things physical units want to run unless they're Knights or Samurai, either.  Proof is in my very own goddamn Nameless Dance team having an incredibly high win rate.  :U

==============

The Damned, that wouldn't make Equip Clothing better than Equip Armor.  You can equip a Ribbon now and block a ton of status... but good job losing 70 HP and your Support skill.  Equip Armor gives you both status protection and higher HP values compared to typical clothing, making it a beneficial choice.  It's like a pseudo Unyielding that also prevents status for bulky units that don't care about PA or MA as much.  Equip Clothing with Headbands is nothing like that even with Headbands because even the 80/80 Headband is inferior to Helmets for HP.  Equip Clothing also has the big issue of not being as valuable on armored units as they can all use Robes already (the main thing you'd want from Equip Clothing) and the cloth units already have Hats and Clothing so all they can maybe gain is Robes.  The ONLY class that gains a noticeable boost to equipment options as it is with Equip Clothing, ironically, is Monks, as they can normally only use Headbands and Clothing, so they gain Robes and Hats... not that they need either of those, so even this ends up being moot anyway.  Headbands give a clear and definitive boon that is powerful and that every non-Monk can make use of and very much does not obviate Equip Armor if you stop going RIBBON OHHHH and realize HP exists as a stat.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 21, 2012, 12:52:57 am
(I'm tempted to do an Ode to Ribbon now, partly because I still don't understand the name change to Headbands.)

No, I'm remembering HP, otherwise I wouldn't feel like the Headbands need less of it. I suppose I'm just hesitant about it with regards to Equip Clothing because I haven't had the way that I want to change it Headbands yet.

Aside from that, I suppose it's also a question of Equip Clothing where should go if it gets the Headbands, especially since I agree with you that Monks benefit the most from it. With Equip Clothing have to "compete" with Concentrate in Squire now, maybe moving it to Monk or some other class if it gets Headbands wouldn't be too bad.

Shrug. I'll try and think more about this during the next week.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 21, 2012, 01:23:35 am
Moving Equip Clothing to Monks once it gets Headbands... is actually a good idea.  Monk doesn't have much in utility R/S/M other than HP Restore and maybe Warpath.  This gives it a utility Support and makes the semi-derpy Equip Clothing Monk a tad more viable by making it cost 250 JP less to make.

You did something right for a change.  Good yob.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 21, 2012, 01:45:08 am
(The irony.)

Sigh. I suppose I should just make suggestions off the top of my head more often since thinking about things has been what's been holding up Embargo forever too....

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on October 21, 2012, 01:23:35 amYou did something right for a change.  Good yob.


Yay! Now I'm 3 for 300 with those Katana suggestions and Chronos Tear!

Oh, speaking of Chronos Tear, AeroGP informed me more than a week ago that apparently it's possessive in the worksheet/memory card thing when it shouldn't be. I'm not sure what that's about.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on October 21, 2012, 01:47:02 pm
Quote from: The Damned(I was still under the impression that Projectile Guard wasn't supposed to or just couldn't block the Spellguns since they're, you know, magick. Of course, if Projectile Guard is supposed to do that, then it's been "broken" for a lot longer than 138 since I'm pretty sure I got shot in the face every damn time I had Projectile Guard against those things.)


According to the latest match I put up, Projectile Guard is working as normal; it was blocking arrows and normal gun shots, but not magic spell gun shots. I think it's fine.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 21, 2012, 03:53:09 pm
I'm not sure if it's working or not.  On one hand there looks to be the video presented by Otabo where the Oracle was dodging arrows and guns left and right.  Further observe Otabo's recent video at 4:46.  If you pause and observe the non-magic gun is showing a hit rate of 100% but it misses.  Picture below...

(http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u592/reinoe1/ProjectileGuardFail2_zps87e5c0bf.jpg)


However on the opposite end of the spectrum  there have been instances of units with very high evasion getting hit with 100% on the magic gun.  The unit in question had Escutcheon, Leather Mantle, and Projectile Guard.

(http://i50.tinypic.com/15h29ma.jpg)



It looks like something is going on with Projectile Guard, but I'm not certain what it is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 21, 2012, 05:27:42 pm
While you're changing the proc on the Holy Spear, what about Spear/Mythril Spear/Partisan procs? They do nothing for their native class and just get in the way when fighting absorption teams.

Spear = 50% Execute
Mythril Spear = 50% Bad Luck
Partisan = No proc
Holy Spear = 33% Spellbreaker
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 21, 2012, 11:57:07 pm
My plan currently is to allow Martial Arts users to be able to equip Headbands. And I have a potential rework for Holy Spear. As for the other spear procs, I'm not too sure myself. I'd prefer to keep them the same proc, but make the weapon have their respective element.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 23, 2012, 12:03:05 am
(I'm still going to hold off on my main "suggestion" post until the weekend, but since we're talking about this....)

Yeah, I'd concur that just making the three Breath proc spears the same elements as their procs would seemingly be the most sensible and best solution at present. As I mentioned in Monk thread, Fire and Lightning are currently the least likely element types to be used with Grand Cross; I think that Lightning has literally never been used with Grand Cross. Additionally, Lancer tends to never get used for anything but Jump--not that this is "bad"--due to how odd its weapons are and I honestly can't remember one ever using Grand Cross despite having good PA. That would solve both those problems really.

If you do make the three spears elemental, then you might have to lower the WP and/or Breath procs a bit in power just because Strengthening them would actually be worth it now, especially since then they could be used as "healing shivs" like other elemental weapons. I'm not sure if it's necessary though, at least in terms of the Breath procs. Lancers do to have crappy MA after all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 23, 2012, 02:29:18 am
Quote from: FFMaster on October 21, 2012, 11:57:07 pm
My plan currently is to allow Martial Arts users to be able to equip Headbands.


I am unsure how I feel about this at present.  :v
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 23, 2012, 05:55:47 pm
Would really benefit ninjas and archers acting as a simultaneous offense and defense boost if taken,  would be somewhat good for casters since it can be taken just for the headband purposes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 27, 2012, 07:50:31 pm
I have a noob question.  Functionally what is the difference between having Concentrate and having Transparency?  It seems to me that both allow someone to hit at 100% with physical attacks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on October 27, 2012, 07:52:23 pm
There is none, IIRC. Transparency changes enemy AI a bit though, unless FFM magicked that away.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 27, 2012, 08:09:51 pm
Transparency also makes you lose evasion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 27, 2012, 08:12:09 pm
Transparency is effected by Blind.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 27, 2012, 08:26:01 pm
Thanks for the fast responses.  Very interesting to know about Blind and how Transparancy causes a person to lose their evasion.  I'll make sure none of my units have Hidden Knife with Abandon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 29, 2012, 04:57:59 am
(It's still not entirely clear what you actually "fixed" with regards to Projectile Guard, FFMaster. That we "need" to know, but it help us look for it if something is still amiss.)

Okay, so let's see if I can do this in a reasonable amount of time considering that, like always, I'm already behind when it comes to pretty much everything.

What follows is a Formal List of Suggestions™ for ver. 139 (or ver.138e):


1. Equip Clothes goes from Squire to Monk - Regardless of whether Headbands go to Equip Clothes or Martial Arts or whatever, Equip Clothes should go to Monk. Not only will it give them another viable Support within their job, unlike Squire where it's redundant even before Concentrate now comes in, but it would help to lessen the incoming "stress" of becoming rather reliant upon MP for half of their skills.

And while we're talking about Squire RSMs, you might as well just kill off Defend going into ver. 139 unless you've thought of a solution.


(I also still have no definitive opinion on Martial Arts potentially getting Headbands "instead" now, even if that would arguably help availability more than putting it on Equip Clothes.)


2. Non-Holy Lances with Elemental Breaths become that Element - As suggested above on this page, Spear, Mythril Spear and Partisan should become the same element as the Breath/"Bracelet" that they're supposed to proc so that they can see some actual use; I seriously don't think they've been used since the overhaul that weakened Breaths by neccesity. This means that Spear becomes Fire element, Mythril Spear becomes Ice element and Partisan becomes Lightning element. Since this change would automatically make them Grand Cross friendly and capable of being Strengthened elementally, I would additionally suggest that you drop their WP to 10 so that they don't automatically obviate Obelisk, especially since that's the same WP that Holy Lance has. If you want to drop their WP down further to 9 since you seem to want Holy Lance to be the strongest of the elemental ones, then that's fine with me; you said that you had something in mind for Holy Lance as it is, so I'm not going to suggest anything for that presently.


(If you want to make them new names that correspond, then you can just go with [Colour] Fang for them. Those are kinda generic, but they're still [slightly] less generic than the current names from vanilla and it would make it easy to remember what element is what, i.e. Blue Fang for Ice element.)


3. Balance Headbands' Usefulness - Besides the slightly increased HP that Focus Band and Choice Band currently have over Chakra Band, they are still a lot less useful than it. This is especially true of Focus Band and its MP currently going to waste. While the proposed changes to Monk in the other thread will change that at least somewhat for the better, those changes won't "fix" it. This lack of mitigation, though in part due to Headbands' current lack of availability--itself another issue--among classes, is primarily due to Ribbon...I mean, Chakra Band, still hogging almost all of most useful status immunities.

I know that part of this is due to annoyingly small amount of space we all have to deal with for Item Attributes. However, given my last suggestion dealt with this in a way that I think was fine and was totally uncommented upon, I'll put it forth again (for the third time). This will be what is probably a more than slight modification since I'm going off of memory here even before I deliberately alter the Barette and Ribbon more:


Cachusha [Focus Band]: HP: 65; MP: 60; Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith.

Barette [Choice Band]: HP: 55; MP: 40; Immune: Dead, Frog, Poison, Berserk, Death Sentence.

Ribbon [Chakra Band]: HP: 45; MP: 20; Immune: Petrify, Silence, Blind, Slow, Sleep, Don't Move.


While the HP & MP amounts can vary for all of them and the status combinations for the last two can vary, this seems a lot more "fair" and likely to allow the other two to see more use than the current situation. Cachusha [Focus Band] gets to share Crystal Armor's Item Attribute, which is good both because the other two already have their own Item Attributes and because something, anything, else seems like it really needs to be able to block both Innocent and Faith; those two don't necessarily have to be blocked together mind you.

Beyond Cachusha's sharing, Barette got moved around to have fewer but more "serious" statuses, with the blocking of Berserk and Frog now complimenting each other since Frogs don't get the boost from Berserk damage anyway. It lost Silence primarily because I thought it unfair for a Headband to get both immunity to Silence and Berserk alongside MP since then it would almost obviate Defense Ring; this is especially true since Barrette also already has Dead and Death Sentence immunity. This is why I declined my original thought to give it immunity to Sleep when it still blocked Silence and then when I moved Berserk to it. Barette retains Poison because it felt appropriate given that Poison lingers after Dead now and Barrette has always blocked it and both Dead and Death Sentence as well anyway.

Ribbon, on the other hand, was more a mater of subtracting its always bloated BS. It lost immunity to Undead & Charm to Cachusha. It lost immunity to Stop and Don't Act because I don't think that it should be blocking either of those. It "shouldn't" block Stop because that already gets very little use as it is and now Stop can be dispelled by an additional method via Chronos Tear. It "shouldn't" block Don't Act because it already blocks something as serious as Petrify and people that block Status should be vulnerable to something serious. It lost Berserk primarily because it gained Sleep. This was both to somewhat "make up" for losing Don't Act and Frog and, as stated above, both Berserk & Sleep on the same thing as Silence would have felt like it was obviating Defense Ring. It blocking Slow and Don't Move are similarly to "make up" for no longer blocking Stop.

I will reiterate my opinion that I feel it's fine that none of the Headbands/Ribbons block Oil. I don't think any of them should despite Oil's (increasing) power.


(I will also reiterate my question of why they even got renamed to Headbands in the first place when that's thoroughly confusing even if the new names "should" be more straightforward. Seriously, what was the decision that led to that?)



4. Crystal Shield & Salty Rage - It perhaps seems somewhat odd to group these together, but I'll explain why I am: Crystal Shield is the shield that does almost nothing while Salty Rage is the accessory that does almost nothing. At present, Salty Rage is still the only accessory to literally do nothing after you die. You go down or get your Berserk dispelled by a well-intentioned ally and you might as well have equipped nothing as your accessory. This is rather...noticeable considering the other Perfumes were changed to Always: Protect and Always: Shelled to prevent this and all other Accessories with Initial: Status have some type of other aspect to them.

Now, I'm not saying to go back to making Salty Rage "Always: Berserk". That might help somewhat, but not really, especially since you'd ultimately be giving up that character permanently as opposed to temporarily. Similarly, I recognize that, as with Ribbons/Headbands above, you're working with only limited Item Attribute space that you've already all used. So whatever you do to Salty Rage has to be done to Genji Helmet as well...which already now totally obviates it since at least that gives HP after Berserk is lost at the "cost" of being a lot less accessible than Salty Rage.

So, initially, I was thinking that the "solution" would be to give Salty Rage some minor evasion since that's really all that you can give it without also giving something to Genji Helm. This isn't to say that Genji Helm getting something else would be the end of the world though, just that it's already better than Salty Rage. Also, I say only "minor" because I realize that Salty Rage isn't a mantle and also it shouldn't obviate Power Wrist (or Bracer).

However, I then realized that Crystal Shield was in a similar, if less dire, predicament: its special property of elemental neutrality is currently next to useless. With Light Robe & P Bag no longer being innately weak to Dark and with Crystal Shield (and Rainbow Staff) not blocking Oil (more on this in another Item) as was suggested, the only thing that "Neutral: All Elements" actually does is make Cursed Ring users not weak to Fire. So it's basically a glorified Black Costume...except it doesn't absorb anything and it "only" gives you some decent evasion instead of 100 HP. Um...yay?

Assuming we want to actually get the most out of "Neutral: All Elements", it can't be a Shield really since other shields are now the only thing besides Cursed Ring that are actually "weak" to anything.

All of that is why the idea to potentially swap special properties came up. While "Neutral: All Elements (with Block: Oil)" becoming an accessory is all fine and dandy, "Initial: Berserk (with Block: Blind?)" becoming a shield is quite a bit more suspect. Even if being a shield gives it the benefit of evasion that was asked for in accessory form (and more evasion than that), it kinda screws over Two Swords, Two Hands and any weapon that can't be used with a shield, i.e. Longbows. It also makes Initial: Berserk, which already (still) has issues, even less desireable by making its accessibility less universal.

So...this is less killing two birds with one stone and more stating that "Neutral: All Elements & Initial: Berserk equipment still need something more. Maybe they can help each other out?"


(Regardless, Rainbow Staff still says in the Master Guide it's All elements when it no longer should be. I need to make a list of the errors in the Master Guide I still noticed, but I'll wait to do that until I look through ARENA 138d more closely...two weeks from now.)


5. Oil Blocks Reactions - As suggested (again) by Raven, the Oil status blocking Reactions as well seems like would be good since it would give an actual use for teams that are using either Holy or Dark or no elemental abilities.

Of course, saying that, if this occurs, I would additionally recommend making it so that Oil either dissipates naturally (beyond hit or Dead) or gets canceled (or blocked) by other statuses or, at the very least, lowering the amount of damage from weaknesses. Otherwise, it seems like it could be a bit too much, especially since the spellgun damage on CT5Holy's Ele Break team seems all kinds of absurd. I say this even as I admit I've always been...wary of the special guns.


(Related to the above conditional recommendation: Please make Hawk's Eye cost slightly more MP & CT since causing Oil & Poison would become an even bigger deal with this around. That or make it do slightly less damage. Maybe even both.

Also, under Absorb: Elements, please make it clear whether or not Oil overrides Absorption or not. Right now that issue is extremely vague and basically unanswered.)


6. Equip Magegear includes Harps - I'm personally still quite ambivalent to this, especially since I still see a problem with Harps or, rather, with Bloody Strings. However, people have been clamoring for this for a while and there doesn't seem to be much reason not to aside from the aforementioned offending weapon, so why not. This even though Equip Magegear will then likely be used only for Bloody Strings, which rather defeats the point of including anything besides Harps in it; hence my hesitance.


(I'll try to include some reasonable changes among Harps in my next suggestion list. Well, reasonable changes beyond asking that you please change Ramia Harp to Lamia Harp already. [/nag])


7. Equip Polearms includes Cloths - I'm also rather ambivalent to this, though I lean more towards a "positive" apathy than with the above change. That's because while Cloths could potentially be obnoxious if they were Always like there were long ago, their Initial versions are all easily dispelled, even if only by Dead. Then they all become essentially the same weapon. This, when combined with the fact that Polearms is already decent, but could still see a boost since Poles are rather...lackluster now that they aren't Two Handed death machines, is why I "support" this.


(As with Harps above, I'll try to include suggested changes for Poles in my next suggestion list. Even with lack of Item Attribute space, there should be something...else that can be done to better them aside from just making them all Two Hand-compatible again; that is a terrible idea in my opinion.)



...And that of course went WAY too long, especially this still isn't all I wanted to do, but I'll have to think on the other stuff since most of it was equipment stuff; pretty much everything else was stuff I'd notice that I of course didn't write down, like most of the above list.

Also doesn't help that I'm rather immensely pissed about a couple of unrelated things that I don't want to take out on you guys, so I'll just end it here for now after two additional comments.

Quote from: Malroth on October 23, 2012, 05:55:47 pm
Would really benefit ninjas and archers acting as a simultaneous offense and defense boost if taken,  would be somewhat good for casters since it can be taken just for the headband purposes.


"Ironically", it benefiting Ninja so conspicuously is part of the reason that I'm rather undecided about it. The whole innate Two Swords thing with Martial Arts was something we were trying to avoid, even if Ninja have less PA now. Giving them incentive with status protection that, currently, has an--in my opinion--overblown amount of HP doesn't exactly sit well.

I'm not really seeing how it benefits Archers especially, though, and it benefiting spellcasters more than other supports is certainly arguable even before my proposed changes.

Quote from: FFMaster on October 27, 2012, 08:09:51 pm
Transparency also makes you lose evasion.


...I don't recall this ever being noted. Good to know.

I still think that Hidden Knife is "problematic" regardless, at least when it comes to Sasuke Knife.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 29, 2012, 10:38:01 am
Swapping Salty Rage and Crystal Shield actually sounds like a good idea.

Also Bow Guns are not working supposedly, and neither has Focus.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 29, 2012, 05:00:14 pm
Is Last Song really only 34% chance to hit now? If so, when and why was this change made?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 29, 2012, 05:02:04 pm
The Damned, I am about to beat you with a fish.  Lrn2brevity.

Making Crystal Shield give Berserk is a bad idea because that means only Shield users can be Berserkers.  Berserkers are already a dying breed and that only makes them worse because their most common Support skills are Two Swords or Two Hands, and most Shield-bearers can already access Berserk through Genji Helmet, which will almost always be the better choice except for in really niche situations like using Crystal Shield + Barbuta instead of Genji Shield + Genji Helm.  You'd make the attribute of Crystal Shield slightly more useful at the cost of more or less killing off Berserkers outside of a small subset forever.  You're right in that Crystal Shield would be better as an Accessory - but you'd do a lot more damage than good by swapping it with Salty Rage, as the times even Shield-users would prefer an All-Neutral vs. an Absorb Accessory would be minor anyway now that either Cancel or Absorb exists for every Element as Accessories already.




Also, Focus Band being useless, what the fuck are you smoking?  It gives excellent HP to a class that has excellent HP and innate healing to help them tank even more All The Things.  Not to say Headbands couldn't use a rework since Monk's new iteration really will require them all to give some form of MP and the status distribution does look dumb... but Focus Band does offer serious perks over the others, especially on particular units, and your lack of acknowledging that just made you look really dumb.  80/80 is huge when you consider these things called Secondary skillsets.  Not acknowledging how important the Secondary skillset is makes you look dumb, since quite a few utilize MP, both in terms of MA-lite ones like Yin-Yang and Time Magic and more Physical ones like Chivalry, Ninjitsu, Sing/Dance, etc., all of which aren't unreasonable Monk Secondaries depending on your team.  Then again, 90% of people forget how important the Secondary skillset can actually be, so I really shouldn't be surprised...

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 29, 2012, 05:05:36 pm
@CT5Holy, it's not documented in any Arena changelog and it's been that way as long as I can remember.  If it was ever different, it was probably slightly adjusted to account for Mimes, but I doubt that.  I remember when The Big Mime Debacle happened and people wanted to rape Song/Dance 5 ways to Sunday or otherwise de-Mime it, and I ended up convincing FFMaster to make Mimes less stupidly OP instead.  I know it wasn't changed then and I can't remember a time it wasn't 34%, so...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 29, 2012, 05:13:33 pm
It's always been 50% from what I remember, haha. So something happened along the way.

I think it should be 50% because it isn't used that often to begin with, you have to build around it, and it doesn't work well with Mimes because landing two Quicks on the same unit is redundant. Not to mention Last Song hitting the singer also doesn't usually do much. It's a bit too low at 34% to be effective IMO.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 29, 2012, 05:23:18 pm
(Wait, Alacrity--can we rename that Focus please?--still isn't working?

*looks at Plastic Knight makeover*

...Fuck.)

Oh, yeah, I forgot about Bow Gun supposedly not working. Did anyone ever check to see if Shieldrender is working if that one isn't?

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on October 29, 2012, 05:02:04 pmThe Damned, I am about to beat you with a fish.  Lrn2brevity.


What type of fish? I'm going to need you to write a 1000-word essay describing it before I can consent or not.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on October 29, 2012, 05:02:04 pmMaking Crystal Shield give Berserk is a bad idea because that means only Shield users can be Berserkers.  Berserkers are already a dying breed and that only makes them worse because their most common Support skills are Two Swords or Two Hands.... *hypocritical snip*


Uh, which is why I noted that. I only lumped them together in the first place because the notion came up when I realized both Crystal Shield and Salty Rage still have problems, even when subtracting my ineptitude in team-building from the latter. I quickly dismissed the idea that Salty Rage would work better as a shield for what you said and other reasons, though I suppose I can't blame your eyes for glazing over. (Well, I can given the way that I broke it up, but I won't.)

Still, we ultimately agree that Crystal Shield would work better as an accessory, which is half of the battle really. Improving Salty Rage is, as always, one of the more difficult tasks.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on October 29, 2012, 05:02:04 pmAlso, Focus Band being useless, what the fuck are you smoking?  It gives excellent HP to a class that has excellent HP and innate healing to help them tank even more All The Things. *snip*


You're putting words in my mouth now. I've never said that Focus Band was "useless" to my recollection. I've always maintained that I think it's outclassed, especially since the MP part of it is largely useless on the only class that can use it at present given the way that people currently build Monks, i.e. not with MA-light magick and pretty much always with Chakra. It's not entirely useless, mind you, as you point out. I even admitted that if "we" kept the 80 MP aspect, it would be a lot more useful just for new Monks. Still, if "we" are going just by it having slightly more HP than Focus Band (since, again, most people aren't really using it for anything involving MP save maybe Ninjutsu or Sing), then Barrette (Choice Band) has the exact same amount and status immunities, so...yeah. I'm not "forgetting" anything because I never said it was useless in the first place.

Calm down please; there's really not a less condescending way to say that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2012, 01:27:16 am
(http://www.thebadgecentre.co.uk/images/detailed/0/dont-tell-me-to-calm-down-red.png)

I glaze over because WERDS.  I make long posts on a consistent basis and you even got me Tl;dr'ing.  It's an amazing feat really.  Not sure whether you should be proud or disturbed by it though, probably both.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 30, 2012, 03:38:08 am
(I'll go with "barely disturbed due to being apathetic and used to it" because pride is for the arrogant and the accomplished and I am neither.)

Anyway, since Raven mentioned it above, I just realized how little use Time Magic has been getting lately. I can't say I'm really surprised even with the positive changes given in large part to Masamune, which I'm beginning to lean towards still being overpowered/needing some type of change. I'm not sure that's entirely part of it, but it seems rather...telling that there's literally only one Time Mage on all of the (non-retired) teams; Time Magic isn't much better, only appear about half a dozen teams a best.

Now, I'm not entirely attributing this to Draw Out, though that certainly doesn't help. I'm just  point out the "weirdness" as something to think about since, despite it getting a lot of new things, Time Mage still seems to have virtually no appeal. Some class has to be last, of course, but such a sharp disconnect seems off, especially since I'm not sure what else can be done to improve Time Magic itself that it didn't get going into 138.

Quote from: CT5Holy on October 29, 2012, 05:13:33 pm
It's always been 50% from what I remember, haha. So something happened along the way.

I think it should be 50% because it isn't used that often to begin with, you have to build around it, and it doesn't work well with Mimes because landing two Quicks on the same unit is redundant. Not to mention Last Song hitting the singer also doesn't usually do much. It's a bit too low at 34% to be effective IMO.


I actually concur with this: Last Song should probably be 50% because, even if Quick works, there is a good chance that will be backfire depending on when it hits due to how the AI acts.

At the same time, I kinda have to ask for a compromise: Can Battle Song & Magic Song go back 50%? I really don't see why they need to be 66%, even if it makes sense that Polka Polka and Disillusion are of course lower.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2012, 03:41:45 am
...Why are we lowering Battle Song and Magic Song, exactly?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 30, 2012, 04:17:05 am
Time Mages just don't have very exciting equip options. Everyone's trying out all these updated weapons and shit except for Staves because they're boring for the most part and are mostly just there to have something to have in your hand. Staves just don't do that much for Time Mages for the most part.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 30, 2012, 05:00:04 am
(And I get that. Not that Staves can possibly still be improved [somehow].)

It's just rather...jarring to see next to know one using Time Magic. I could understand if Time Mages weren't be used because "Staves are boring" while Time Magic still was, but even Time Magic is barely being used. When it's only on like 6 of 100+ units, something just seems "wrong" even if again something has to be on the bottom.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2012, 03:41:45 am...Why are we lowering Battle Song and Magic Song, exactly?


We're not, necessarily. Just don't understand why they were raised in the first place when they were more than fine at 50%. Must have missed memo as to why people thought it was necessary at 66%.

I figure that maybe could stand to be "lowered" against if Last Song goes back to be 50% since, by and large, Sing/Song is already better than Dance. Last Song should go back to being 50% regardless though, so it's not like I'm demanding that other two be changed back as well; it's just like with Ribbons being named changed to Headbands: I don't know why that happened and I don't recall it ever even being discussed on the forums. (Yes, I know things are discussed in IRC as well. That's fine. That's also not the point.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2012, 04:24:49 pm
So you're requesting two sort of usable Songs be made worse for no reason other than one slightly less usable Song was asked to be made better and not because anything needs to be done?  That's a Bad Idea.  It was buffed to 66% a while ago after Mimes + Battle Song stopped being a problem and it was realized other Battle Song / Magic Song strategies at 50% weren't that great both with and without Mimes.  This was the same time a lot of other Song/Dance hit rates were modified so that Songs generally had better Hit Rates than Dances did because it gave games momentum and because a single hit of any Song usually meant less than a single hit of any Dance despite what initial logic may tell you.  Basically, Sing is better than Dance because things that give a game momentum have to be better than those that take it away.  That's how you prevent slogs, not that they're still not more than possible in Arena - Y U SO DERP still works fine despite Dance having MP costs, being inferior to Sing, etc.

Headbands were changed because FFMaster felt like it.  The names are 2 Pokemon names and 1 bad one because no one else really gave input and it kind of happened.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 30, 2012, 05:48:12 pm
(Arggggghhhhh.... [/completely unrelated frustration].)

Well that certainly explains where Chakra Band came from, even if "ironically" that one is the most appropriate name given the class.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2012, 04:24:49 pmIt was buffed to 66% a while ago after Mimes + Battle Song stopped being a problem and it was realized other Battle Song / Magic Song strategies at 50% weren't that great both with and without Mimes.


When did Mimes + Battle Song stop being a problem? It's certainly been used less of late, but I must have missed some other change as to why that stopped, which wouldn't be surprising considering I was gone for months.

If that's legitimately not a problem anymore, then I'm fine(-ish) with them staying 66%. I was just confused as to why they changed, especially since I thought it was more recent, i.e. for 138 itself.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 30, 2012, 05:49:09 pm
Time magic doesn't get used because  spending MP to have a 39% chance of hasting each one of 4 units is inferior to having an 100% chance of hasting 2 units for free.   

What  Time magic can do  and who else does it better

Haste.   Samurai, Thieves, Bards, and Squires all improve their teams action speed faster, cheaper and more reliably
Prevent the enemy from acting.    Oracles, Mediators, Archers, Thieves,and Ninja   are all better at it
Dark elemental AOE from Demi         Scholars, Summoners Samurai and Ninja
Interupt enemy spells.          Squires, Samurai, Thieves and any class with ranged direct damage
Fast long range antisandbag.     anyone who can equip a bow, crossbow, gun, or has geomancy, punchart, ninjitsu, or drawout
Slow.   


The major problem.
Time magic's has low, faith dependent hitrates that are not significantly boosted by any degree of investment in magic attack. (+3 MA per 1% boost when targeting an enemy with 40 faith)  combined with High MP costs, redundant affects and non scaling damage that is either trivial in the case of comet or horribly innacurate in the case of the Demi spells.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 30, 2012, 05:59:45 pm
Battle Song Mimes were only ever a problem, The Damned, because of the Fist formula being Fury_PA*Br/100*PA and Mimes having innate Martial Arts, the combination essentially making each +1 PA worth closer to +3 PA or more.  Now Fists use Fury_PA*9 and Mimes have no innate Martial Arts, Attack UP, Magic Attack UP, or Overwhelm in trade for just having a lot of base PA/MA, meaning each +1 to PA or MA is simply a +1 to PA or MA and not exacerbated to higher levels.  It was addressed by fixing the actual problem, which wasn't Battle Song at all since you could replicate the same situation with Accumulate more or less.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 30, 2012, 08:21:58 pm
(Oh, right. I keep forgetting Fists aren't quadratic anymore even though it's at the top of weapons. Probably because you don't consciously "pick" the Fist "weapon", even if you elect to use Martial Arts.)

And I concur, Malroth. The question then becomes what to "do" about it considering Time Magic just got a bunch of buffs, which apparently still aren't/weren't enough.

Do "we" try to buff its existing skills again? Weaken Draw Out a bit? Finally kill Quickening? Give it new skills since things like Balance just don't seem to working--it works fine on Moonlight, but as a spell....

*shrugs*

Like I said, just throwing things out there before I do another formal suggestion list over the weekend.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 30, 2012, 10:30:32 pm
haste/haste2   Y values should be increased by half of their current value   leaving you with a 52/84 % chance of inflicting status on a neutral compat 40 faith ally.

Slow/Slow2 Y values should be increased by 25% of their current value leaving a 44/66% chance of inflicting slow on a 40 faith neutral compat enemy equiped with no magic evasion gear

Stop/Don't move Duration increased to a value above 25 clock ticks to ensure an affected 8 speed unit will miss more than 1 turn

+1 range for comet/sinkhole
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 31, 2012, 12:25:42 am
Time Magic spells are fine.  They're just so damn expensive.  The big contenders are Haste 2, Slow 2, Stop, and Demi 2.  All cost 300 JP.  If you want your Time Mage to serve an additional role with a second skill set (most do), you get to choose one, maybe two, of these.  There's little room for play.

The Time Mage itself suffers from rotten base stats.  Among the spellcasters, it has the second fewest HP (above Summoner, which is another seldomly used class), fewest MP (tied with Oracle), and fewest MA - all this to match Mediator's 9 SP, which has nearly 50% more HP at the same MA.  Small wonder people put Time Magic on a stronger class when they use it.

Making Time Mage the 9 SP spellcaster is a silly design decision in Arena, to be honest.  You often want your Time Mage to be slowest and in fourth position so that its team members don't run out of Haste's AoE.  If anything, Priest should be the one who has 9 SP, since you want your healers to be as fast as possible.  How does the following sound?


Female
            HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     106  82   9   6  10
Time Mage  125  87   8   3  10

Change      HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     -19  --  +1  --  --
Time Mage  +19 +10  -1  --  +1
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 31, 2012, 02:34:39 am
Gaignun's suggestion looks fine.

And yeah, Time Magic is fine. Malroth, how are you getting your numbers? Currently, without considering caster Faith or MA, Haste 2 and Slow 2 have a 75% chance to hit a 40 Faith neutral compat target. Include caster Faith and MA and it goes up to ~86%. Those are pretty good odds. If we use your suggestion, then Haste 2/Slow 2 are more or less guaranteed to hit.
Admittedly, Haste/Haste 2 could probably see an accuracy buff, but not Slow/Slow 2.

+1 range for Comet should be ok, but I don't think Sinkhole needs to be changed. 5 range is plenty.

Not sure what to think about Stop duration going up. It'd certainly make it more attractive, but Stop is plenty deadly as is. But now there's also Chronos Tear. Hmm. I'm inclined to say no to Stop duration increasing, but it's an interesting prospect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on October 31, 2012, 03:13:50 am
Gaignun's stat changes address the problem adequately.  Reduce the JP costs of Haste 2, Slow 2, and Sinkhole to 200 each as well and you're good to go.  Doing that would make the majority of Time Mage's "good" skills sit in the moderate JP-cost range, with its offensive options being "expensive" at 300 each for the good ones.  Maybe also reduce Comet to 100 JP just because the cost looks weird on this class as nothing else is a multiple of 50 JP cost but that doesn't matter much.  These two changes would help both Time Magic and the Time Mage class work out a lot better imo.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 31, 2012, 03:36:30 am
(Not that it really matters, but you put MA twice instead of MP, Gaignun.)

Otherwise, I can support those changes. I certainly wouldn't mind Priest being squishier or Time Magick being less expensive overall. I'm not sure that Comet needs to be as cheap as 100 JP given it eschews Faith, but considering it's basically auto-screwed over by Auto Potion, I'm not sure I really mind it being that cheap; it certainly doesn't need extra range, though, especially given its CT. Haste spells could use a slight boost, if only because all other instances of speed boosting, sans Cheer Song, are guaranteed to hit; as CT5Holy said, though, the Slow spells are fine aside from Slow 2's JP cost. Nothing else reliably causes AoE Slow and Slow is still pretty damn debilitating at 50% less Speed.

Quote from: Gaignun on October 31, 2012, 12:25:42 amMaking Time Mage the 9 SP spellcaster is a silly design decision in Arena, to be honest.  You often want your Time Mage to be slowest and in fourth position so that its team members don't run out of Haste's AoE.  If anything, Priest should be the one who has 9 SP, since you want your healers to be as fast as possible.  How does the following sound?


That's not just ARENA, though. For some reason, Time Mage was curiously one of the faster mages in--or, rather, since--vanilla despite the fact that development staff had to know about the priority of Haste when it comes to the AI's focus. Time Mage being slower, among the other changes, should certainly help things, even as wary as I am of anything with Raise 2 getting slightly more turns.

Lesser evil I suppose.

*makes a note of this for his second wave of formal suggestions*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 31, 2012, 08:55:25 am
I agree with Gaignun. switching the priest's and time mage's stats would make perfect sense. especially since I do recall in vanilla that priests were faster than time mages. It would get people to choose time mage more often than previous versions
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 31, 2012, 09:22:48 am
Quote from: The Damned on October 31, 2012, 03:36:30 am
(Not that it really matters, but you put MA twice instead of MP, Gaignun.)


Whoops.  Thanks for catching that.

Quote from: The Damned on October 31, 2012, 03:36:30 am
That's not just ARENA, though. For some reason, Time Mage was curiously one of the faster mages in--or, rather, since--vanilla despite the fact that development staff had to know about the priority of Haste when it comes to the AI's focus.


You mean Square's dev team?  It was Priest that was quicker than the rest in vanilla.  Unless by vanilla you mean 1.3, in which I believe Time Mages were indeed the faster ones.  I don't blame anyone here for keeping Time Mages this way.  It is just one of those things that carried over from 1.3.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 31, 2012, 01:29:07 pm
In 1.3 Time Mages were quicker. But in vanilla it was priests. So yea like Gaignun suggested just simply switching the stats between priests and time mages around (at least most of them) would make logical sense considering that primarily time mages are only designed to disrupt opponents at the latest opportunity while priests get these quick heals off during cast time (I know I'm paraphrasing Gaignun but still....)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 31, 2012, 04:12:56 pm
(As usual, parades are overblown pieces of excrement that I understand neither the point nor the excitement of in most instances. [/completely unrelated])

I could save face, but, no, I was referring to Vanilla as in PSX FFT. Must have been getting confused with Priest, which I definitely remembered being a faster mage, just like I remember Summoner being below average but not as glacial as Calculator.

So, with Time Mage somewhat agree upon already, I figure I'll just continue throwing things out there: Should Time Mage get more equipment options than just using Stave as weapon? Or is it Staves that should change (more)? Or both? (Or neither?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 31, 2012, 10:08:55 pm
Are the Bio spells suppose to bypass reflect?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 31, 2012, 10:11:47 pm
(No, they're not.)

When did this come up?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 01, 2012, 12:42:50 am
They are flagged reflectable in Patcher. Maybe Reflect was dispelled before?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 01, 2012, 02:31:31 am
This might seem a little weird but I think Flare needs a boost.  It's not evadable but Flare typically does less damage than Holy thanks to Golden Hairpin, but Flare also costs 20 mp more and has a higher CT.  When looking at the two it is hard to justify Flare.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 01, 2012, 03:02:19 am
(Flare could probably stand to have 5 or 10 MP shaved off.)

I just don't think that it needs to do anymore damage considering it's not subject to M-EV at all, whereas Holy is now. Holy could maybe see a slight damage decrease or Flare could maybe see slight CT reduction to 6, though of the two I would prefer the former rather than latter.

Beyond any of those things, I don't think any more drastic needs to be done to Flare with regards to how it compares to Holy (or doesn't).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 01, 2012, 03:26:43 am
Also, being elemental, Holy can be blocked. It has value in it's reliability. Might be a little too MP intensive.

The real issue is actually Golden Hairpin. Not only does is it one of the highest MP boosting items of Arena period, it comes with Holy/Dark strengthening AND +1 MA. All that and it's somehow isn't dead last in giving HP. The MA boost is just too much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 01, 2012, 04:09:15 am
(*is guilty of abusing Golden Hairpin*)

Yeah, that most likely does need to lose +1 MA, though I can sort of understand why it was/is there.

At the same time, I'd argue that Black Hood needs to gain some MP. That or, less ideally, Thief Hat. I say this because besides Golden Hairpin, the only two Hats that give any MP aren't really meant for mages. In fact, they're both rather anti-mage since mages don't really want more movement since they tend to charge forward suicidally and they obviously don't want Initial: Innocent. Considering that Hats still double as the Head equivalent for both Clothes and Robes, Black Hood (or Thief Hat) getting a bit of MP seems like it would be "fair" despite Black Hood having the highest HP. I mean, it makes sense for the highest HP Helm(et) to give no MP since Armor doesn't give MP at all, but since Robes don't have a Head equivalent still...yeah.

Just another thought.

*goes back to watching The Haunting*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 01, 2012, 09:37:38 am
Quote from: FFMaster on November 01, 2012, 12:42:50 am
They are flagged reflectable in Patcher. Maybe Reflect was dispelled before?


It could be just me but I did a test and even though my chemist was wearing a reflect mail due to equip armor bio 2 still hit him (unless there was a reflected bio 2 off of my oracle....I wasn't quite paying attention) but I will do more research on that
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 01, 2012, 10:33:05 am
I just did another test with one of Doku's team. His scholar can still target my oracle for damage with bio 2 whereas I think if I remember correctly it's suppose to be 0% due to reflect right?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 01, 2012, 07:19:31 pm
I'd rather see Golden Hairpin lose the Strengthen: Holy/Dark. Dia, Cyclops, and Holy are all quite strong and they get boosted by it. Kotetsu is another strong skill that benefits from Golden Hairpin, but there's a lot more Dark absorb than Holy absorb. Still hurts though. Remember, Strengthen: ___ on a mage effectively gives them at least 3 more MA for the corresponding element.

I think Black Hood giving MP would be fine. While we're talking about MP though, how about some more clothes giving MP? Right now it's only Earth Clothes at a measly 10 MP.

Flare MP down to 40 and CT down to 6 seems reasonable.

Thoughts on increasing the HP on Grand Helmet and Maximillian? No one uses either.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 01, 2012, 08:07:36 pm
Hats just have a lot of bad balance to them.  60/0 for +2 MA is fine, but 70/50 for +1 is almost always better, and the STR: Elems on top are just ridiculous.  I think keeping the STR: Elems is fine because it's narrow and a head-based variant on Black Robe, but it does a lot of other shit that is clearly ridiculous compared to equivalent items.  Maybe switch it up with:

[HELMETS]
HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects.
HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.

[HATS]
HP 080 MP 020 Green Beret - Move +1, Jump +1.
HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2.
HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2.
HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect.
HP 060 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark.
HP 080 MP 020 Flash Hat - Initial: Innocent.
HP 060 MP 000 Thief Hat - SP +1, Half: Wind, Earth, Water.

[HEADBAND]
HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith.
HP 040 MP 040 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence.
HP 020 MP 020 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.

[ARMOR]
HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.

[CLOTHES]
HP 080 MP 000 Wizard Outfit - MA +2.
HP 120 MP 030 Brigadine - No Added Effects.
HP 100 MP 020 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind.
HP 080 MP 000 Power Sleeve - PA +2.
HP 090 MP 010 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth.
HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1.
HP 100 MP 020 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark.
HP 100 MP 020 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water.

[ROBES]
HP 110 MP 040 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.

I left out anything that didn't get changed for the most part.  Silk Robe is adjusted because it's not that great and to make it match the updated Brigadine better.  Cross Helmet is adjusted to better match Black Hood because it'd be dumb for Black Hood to be 110/XX relevant MP but Cross Helm to only be 90/40 when an armored unit is already going to be downgrading its HP quite a bit for Robes if they want an MP build.  Everything else is addressing things like Golden Hairpin or Clothing never giving MP, etc. and adjustments based on those adjustments.  Also mugged and adjusted The Damned's Headband recommendation to be a bit better balanced.


Also gonna say that Flare should keep its CT but definitely drop the MP cost.  The CT is the main counterbalance to it being mostly unblockable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 01, 2012, 11:02:57 pm
(Mugged? Damn. I knew I should have equipped Maintenance.)

I can get behind Raven's changes for the most part, including our agreement over Flare, saves for two matters:

1. Silk Robe's MP should probably go up to 50 just because the two +X MA robes also have 50 and Linen Robe isn't that far off in terms of HP from it even before the HP drop.

2. I'm not sure if I'm entirely comfortable with Chakra Band/Ribbon (or even Choice Band/Barrette) blocking that many statuses still, especially since last time there were at least some negative statuses they missed like Sleep and Oil. Then again, considering Chakra Band now has as little HP as I was originally going to give it....

Ultimately I'd like support the above two as Raven suggested them anyway. Just making notes like always.

Speaking of which, after my suggestion list, it seems that we've already talked about Last Song, Time Mage & Time Magic(k), Flare vs. Holy and now Headgear & Body Armor.

Anything else coming to people's minds before I flood the thread with text again? For instance, I ask again if anyone has any thoughts about Staves.

Quote from: Barren on November 01, 2012, 10:33:05 am
I just did another test with one of Doku's team. His scholar can still target my oracle for damage with bio 2 whereas I think if I remember correctly it's suppose to be 0% due to reflect right?


Yeah, it should be 0%. Reflect has always been all or nothing, with the "nothing" part also coming up if spell was already Reflected.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 01, 2012, 11:14:35 pm
Here are my thoughts with that list.

Golden Hairpin: HP 060 MP 030, Strengthen: Holy, Dark

Removing the MA and reducing the MP is fine, but keep the HP at 70.  60 HP puts it on terms with Thief Hat, which has the universally applicable SP boost.  With its MA lost, mages that don't use Holy or Dark (which I dare say is a significant fraction of the Golden Hairpin userbase) will migrate to a 50-MP Black Hood, anyway.  I think it's best to nerf Golden Hairpin bits at a time, especially if other hats will get buffed.  If Golden Hairpin still seems too attractive, then we can slash its HP as well.

Santa Outfit, Black Costume, Rubber Costume: HP 100 MP 020, Absorb: ...

No to the MP boost.  These clothes see enough use for their elemental absorption.

Brigandine: HP 120 MP 030

I personally find robes to be the equipment responsible for MP boosting.  If you put 30 MP on Brigandine, non-robe classes will go to Brigandine without ever bothering with Equip Clothes, and robe classes will choose Brigandine over Silk Robe since an equal exchange of MP for HP, when paired with an MP-boosting hat, is worthwhile (except for Paladin, perhaps).  If non-robe classes want extra MP without sacrificing their support ability for Equip Clothes, they look to hats.  Putting 50 MP on Black Hood is a significant buff in this regard.

That said, I'm comfortable with Brigandine having a few MP, like 15 or 20.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 02, 2012, 11:59:45 am
Just did a couple of test with reflect. Now I know that white magic esuna bounces off reflect, but for some reason bio 2 can pierce through reflect. I know lore spells like quake and tornado ignore reflect but I thought bio 2 was suppose to be reflected. And no it wasn't dispelled or worn off before hand. this happened in the beginning of the fight
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 02, 2012, 05:14:58 pm
Then I seriously have no idea what is happening. Bio 2 is flagged reflectable in my ISO. Open it in your ISO and check. It should be the first Bio 2 in the list.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 02, 2012, 05:32:38 pm
Opened the patch with FFTpatcher and did check the bio 2 (1st on the list) and it is reflectable....maybe there's something wrong with reflect ring
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 02, 2012, 06:22:29 pm
(So I guess no one has anything pressing to say about Staves. Good to know.)

Barren, can you be more precise about when/where on the map this is happening? Is it near the edges? Is the Reflect animation just not coming up at all? Did you record any of this?

Quote from: Gaignun on November 01, 2012, 11:14:35 pmGolden Hairpin: HP 060 MP 030, Strengthen: Holy, Dark

*rock*

Santa Outfit, Black Costume, Rubber Costume: HP 100 MP 020, Absorb: ...

*paper*

Brigandine: HP 120 MP 030

*scissors*


Decent points all. In thinking about it more, I agree that Golden Hairpin shouldn't take an HP drop.

The other two I'm not so sure about, especially since the issue with Brigandine was partly why I was asking for Silk Robe to have more MP.

As for the absorbing equipment, perhaps compromise and have them get 10 MP, while Earth Clothes get 15-20 MP and Brigandine gets 15 or 20 or even 25?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on November 02, 2012, 07:04:43 pm
Well about Staves,  I'd Like it if Geomancers could equip them but thats just a minor quibble and fixable with equip magegear.  White Staff should probably be holy elemental to go along with its Dia Proc.  and I still don't see the Point of Rainbow Staff.  Perhaps add Immune:oil 100% add oil and make it non 2swords ?

Edit:  nevermind the add oil suggestion,  i just noticed its still ALL elemental and that would be way too powerful if it added oil.   Still Be somewhat pointless to use under any circumstance though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 02, 2012, 08:09:17 pm
(Rainbow Staff actually isn't All Elemental anymore. That's just a typo.)

Even if it isn't a typo, Rainbow Staff is becoming non-elemental next version considering that it was supposed to be non-elemental starting back at 138a. Additionally, even if it was it's probably going to get Block: Oil anyway if the "make Crystal Shield an accessory with Block: Oil" suggestion goes through since they share the same Item Attribute.

Besides, even if Rainbow Staff was All Elemental, aside from spellguns(' BS), no regular element weapon attack should cause double damage on an Oil-covered target unless someone "fixed"/changed that. Even when Oil just caused weakness to Fire, Asura didn't cause double damage when just attacking.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 02, 2012, 09:30:48 pm
Next chance I get I'll record my findings on reflect and then we'll determine if there's something with it or not.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 02, 2012, 09:51:10 pm
White Staff is worthless. Any class that has access to this weapon has better offensive options or is better off not even trying. Wizard Staff is just a Wizard Rod clone and should be differentiated. If they really want the +2 MA that badly, just slap on a C Bag.

White Staff: Initial: Shell
Wizard Staff: Initial: Protect
Gold Staff: 20 W-Ev
Rainbow Staff: Immune: Oil

I think Cloths will be fine with sharing their attributes seeing they're used with completely different setups/units. They are also only available to Dancers, and not all that used in the first place, so conflict will be minimal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 02, 2012, 10:06:59 pm
I know there was some talk about this but I don't know what the end result was.  Can the geomancy effects for Carve Model (petrify) and pitfall (don't move) be switched around?  As mentioned previously Carve Model can just ruin a team and there are multiple entire stages that trigger nothing but Carve Model.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 02, 2012, 10:09:59 pm
How about switching with Local Quake instead? Because it's already done.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on November 02, 2012, 10:51:40 pm
I like Gold staff's 100% dispel proc  :cry:
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 02, 2012, 10:57:03 pm
And it's still there. I just didn't bother typing it for some reason along with Rainbow Staff's Element Neutrality.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 02, 2012, 11:49:24 pm
(...Well, it would seem that Otabo preempted me in the realm of both a Mediator-based team and a Knife-based team. Glad I didn't waste time on that.)

Gold Staff getting more P-EV makes sense since it's only one of the Staves, aside from Healing Staff, that you really giving you any real benefit from physically hitting someone. Similarly, I also support Rainbow Staff obviously.

However, I'm not really sure I can get behind White Staff and Wizard Staff's proposed changes, even if, yeah, Wizard Staff desperately needs one "now" that Wizard Rod has been MA*WP instead of PA*WP for a while. Even if they would no longer be Two Sword-able or even Two-Handable (I presume), that still seems like it's infringing on Knightswords design space, who also see relatively little use still; those don't need changes though.

Regardless, I suppose it's something to think about over the next ten or so hours....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 03, 2012, 02:20:37 am
Oh crap, I forgot about the K-Swords. Okay Plan B:

White Staff: Half: Fire, Ice, Lightning
Wizard Staff: +1 MA, Always: Transparent

I thought Transparent would be nice in particular for Draw Out users with it adding aggression and unevadability. I'm not sure what's going to happen when caster try to use this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 03, 2012, 05:39:17 pm
FFT Arena - Problem with reflect ring (http://youtu.be/UZhCszCq3zI)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 03, 2012, 07:27:48 pm
Well, we found the problem. Skillset 15(originally Math Skill) skills will automatically ignore Reflect. There's some funny hardcoding which I may or may not be able to find. So that means all Lore is not reflectable for this version.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 03, 2012, 10:01:40 pm
([Expletive deleted.] I hate having to sleep.)

I'd rather not have Transparent on anything else considering how much I loathe Hidden Knife and still feel that needs to "change". Regardless of my opinion on that, there's also the matter that there simply isn't any room for new Item Attributes without overriding something else. The only reason my Headband/Ribbon changes would work is because Focus Band would share an already existing one and other two already have their own isolated Item Attributes. So, basically, you'd have to kill an Item Attribute to get +1 MA & Initial: Transparent on something.

Similarly, I'm not really comfortable with giving Half: Fire, Ice & Lightning to a weapon, which is saying a lot considering what my item list for Embargo looks like. I mean, considering that "we" killed off Venetian Shield because of that....

Anyway, since I brought it up, I've thought to include Staves in my Second Formal List of Suggestions™ for ver. 139 (or ver.138e). I think I've thought of something for them, which is "ironic" considering that I took a lot less time to think about them than Poles or Harps, which I still haven't decided on:

 
1. Please change Last Song back to 50% from its current 34%: As detailed before, there's no reason why Last Song shouldn't be 50% still, if only because the AI is often too dumb to make full use of Quick, especially if it's in the middle of already charging something. Also due to the fact that, as CT5Holy pointed out, Quick hitting a target twice or more before it gets its turn doesn't do anything. Of course, you could somewhat argue that same for CT00, but Last Dance's hit-rate is currently fine.


(Never thought I'd be arguing for Sing to be made stronger....)



2. Please change Time Mage's stats as Gaignun suggested: Given that, as Gaignun also pointed out, Time Mages have relatively horrible and counterproductive stats, the class itself needs something. Everyone seems to concur that his suggestions were for the best, so there is no reason to deviate from those. As such, I will just reproduce them from page 37:


Female
            HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     106  82   9   6  10
Time Mage  125  87   8   3  10

Change      HP  MP  SP  PA  MA
Priest     -19  --  +1  --  --
Time Mage  +19 +10  -1  --  +1


(You will have to of course make the same changes for Male Time Mages, whatever those may be.)



3. Please change Time Magic(k) as largely suggested by Raven and a few others: I decided to separate these from asking about stat changes given both that I view them as somewhat separate anyway and everyone was a lot less unanimous about them. I'll just list the proposals I back here:


1. Please reduce the JP cost of Haste 2 from 300 to 200.

2. Please reduce the JP cost of Slow 2 from 300 to 200.

3. Please reduce the JP cost of Sinkhole from 250 to 200.

4. Please increase the Y value of Haste from 60 to 70.

5. Please increase the Y value of Haste 2 from 100 to 115.


I have other, more personal suggestions, but considering that no one has made (good) use of Don't Move or Balance yet, I'll hold off on those for now. They might be completely unnecessary after all.


(I'm ambivalent about Comet getting either more range or becoming 100 JP instead of 150. Please only do one or the other though if you do either.)



4. Flare still seems like it needs a bit of a boost versus Holy. Please give it one: Right now, this is as much an issue with Golden Hairpin as it is with Flare and Holy; Golden Hairpin will be discussed in just a bit though.

At present, it seems that the MP reduction is the change best agreed upon and one that I myself agree with. Therefore, I would ask you to please reduce Flare's MP from 50 to 40.


(Feel free to slightly reduce Holy's overall power by a point Y value-wise if you wish, though even that might be unnecessary with pretty much everyone agreeing that Golden Hairpin needs to lose its +1 MA.)



5. Please change the following Headgear and Body Armor: Originally I was personally just going to ask for Headbands to be rebalanced and to give another Hat or two some MP, but then it ballooned. At present, I'll just use Raven's list since he used my Headband ideas along with some other things I mostly agree with. I'm going to change some things on that list from page 38, but I'll bold what they are:


[HELMETS]
HP 120 MP 040 Cross Helmet - No Added Effects.
HP 150 MP 000 Grand Helmet - No Added Effects.

[HATS]
HP 080 MP 020 Green Beret - Move +1, Jump +1.
HP 070 MP 000 Twist Headband - PA +2.
HP 070 MP 000 Holy Miter - MA +2.
HP 110 MP 050 Black Hood - No Added Effect.
HP 070 MP 030 Golden Hairpin - Strengthen: Holy, Dark.
HP 080 MP 020 Flash Hat - Initial: Innocent.
HP 060 MP 000 Thief Hat - SP +1, Half: Wind, Earth, Water.

[HEADBAND]
HP 060 MP 060 Focus Band - Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith.
HP 040 MP 040 Choice Band - Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence.
HP 020 MP 020 Chakra Band - Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act, Oil.

[ARMOR]
HP 160 MP 000 Maximillian - No Added Effects.

[CLOTHES]
HP 080 MP 000 Wizard Outfit - MA +2.
HP 120 MP 025 Brigadine - No Added Effects.
HP 100 MP 010 Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind.
HP 080 MP 000 Power Sleeve - PA +2.
HP 090 MP 015 Earth Clothes - Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth.
HP 070 MP 000 Secret Clothes - SP +1.
HP 100 MP 010 Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark.
HP 100 MP 010 Rubber Costume - Absorb: Lightning, Water.

[ROBES]
HP 110 MP 050 Silk Robe - No Added Effects.


Most my changes were just switching around MP. I lowered the elemental absorption gear from 20 to 10 and Brigandine from 30 to 25. Meanwhile, I rose Silk Robe from 40 to 50 because of the +X MA Robes and slightly rose Earth Clothes from 10 to 15 because of the other elemental clothes still "needing" to give at least some MP in my mind.

Aside from that, I changed Golden Hairpin back to 70 HP because I figured with it losing +1 MA--as it should--and with the +2 [Stat] hats going up to 70 HP, there's really no reason it should go down to 60 HP considering it's more narrow. This even if it does give MP while those two still don't.


(Admittedly, I'm torn betweewn Earth Clothes having 15 or 20 MP though, as well as still having reservations about a couple of the changes Raven made to my initial suggestions about Headbands.)



6. Staves Still Need a Boost In Usability: Right now, aside from the utterly abusive Mace of Zeus, Staves are extremely mediocre at best. The best Stave after Mace of Zeus is Wizard Staff, which is essentially just a duplicate of Wizard Rod now that Rods are MA*WP instead of PA*WP. Healing Staff is "fine", I suppose considering that it's not really meant for attacking. As such, it doesn't see use still like Murasame doesn't save for "Turn the Enemy Undead" teams, which is also...fine...I guess. Shrug. I still think it could use a bit of a boost since Murasame got one or two recently.

As such, Staves need changes. While Dokurider has come up with a change to Gold Staff that I agree with, since Gold Staff is pretty much the only Staff besides Healing Staff that gives you any real benefit for hitting people presently, that still leaves three that need changes. Well, two if one can assume that the "Crystal Shield's Item Attribute gets Block: Oil" goes through since Rainbow Staff shares that Item Attribute.

Regardless, since thus far White Staff and Wizard Staff are still short-changed and no suggestions for them have been ones I've agreed with, I will propose the following. I fully admit that these changes are made with Time Mage in mind since, at present, they can only equip Staves; well they can also equip Bags technically since everyone can now, which is why Wizard Staff is even more redundant really.

I'll bold the changes:


1. White Staff - WP: 7; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Holy; Special: 50% Cast: Dia; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

2. Healing Staff - WP: 12; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Special: Restore: HP, Strengthen: Holy and Dark; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

3. Rainbow Staff - WP: 10; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Non-Elemental; Special: Neutral: All Element, Block: Oil; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

4. Wizard Staff - WP: 7; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Cast: Dark (Dmg_F[MA*6] Dark Element spell that has 20% Add: Silence and is subject to M-EV); Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.

5. Gold Staff - WP: 8; W-EV: 20%; Range: 1; Special: 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

6. Mace of Zeus - WP: 7; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Special: Absorb: Lightning, No longer Strengthen: Lightning; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


As stated above, half of these were made with Time Mage in mind, the new Healing Staff in particular since it can share an Item Attribute with the new Golden Hairpin (instead of Excalibur) and would strengthen the Demis. Healing Staff's new changes will make it both so that Golden Hairpin isn't the sole holder of that particular boost (as it is now) and so that Healing Staff can actually be used Two Swords style with something other than itself. With these changes, it is compatiable with the new White Staff (which can actually be used on Holy Absorb teams now) or the new Wizard Staff (which isn't a clone of Wizard Rod anymore now); yes, Healing Staff is already compatible with the three elemental Rods, but to a lesser extent obviously since it already never boosted any of their elements and because literally no one has ever used it as such--also because not all mages can equip both Rods & Staves.

The new White Staff and the new Wizard Staff are such as to mirror each other obviously, right down to the "necessary" creation of a Dark to rival Dia. I think that's a lot more "fair" than my original idea to make it cast Demi, for better or for worse. It may not be all that "fair" ultimately, though, since Two Swords on both means that Wizard Staff could be used with Sadist's Whip (on Priests) while White Staff doesn't get that equivalent. So feel to up White Staff's power a bit if you want. That or lower Dark's cast chance a bit.

Rainbow Staff and Gold Staff's changes are self-explanatory, so I'll quickly say that I took away Mace of Zeus's Strengthening because it just seems like it had the same problem that Excalibur originally had of doing too much. Mages can already equip Black Robes, 108 Gems and, if they really want to, Two Swords Thunder Rod and Mace of Zeus or equip Shield Mace of Zeus with Kaiser Plate. There's really no reason that the strongest of the Wizard elements should come pre-strengthened on something that absorbs it IMO, especially now that Pilgrimage is around too.


(Please, for the love of death, change Rainbow Staff's element in worksheet to None next version since I'm pretty sure it's been non-elemental for at least a month or two.

Also, for Dark, if you use that idea, feel free to juse use Demi/Pitfall's animation. Of course, I suppose you could just use one of the Lucavi's Fear animations. I honestly don't think I even know what Darkness's animation looks like though. Additionally, I'd avoid using Blind 2 since that takes a bit. Feel free to change the name to like Harm--if you want to be ironic--or something if you feel an attack named Dark is too confusing. [/insert nagging about changing all instances of "Darkness" to "Blind"])


...Hmmm...I guess I'll leave the third (and final?) list of suggestions for next weekend, when I'll "actually have time" to look through all of 138d in FFTPatcher. In theory at least. We know how that tends to go....

Quote from: FFMaster on November 03, 2012, 07:27:48 pm
Well, we found the problem. Skillset 15(originally Math Skill) skills will automatically ignore Reflect. There's some funny hardcoding which I may or may not be able to find. So that means all Lore is not reflectable for this version.


Heh. For a minute, when you said "all Lore", I was thinking you just meant the "everything on screen" abilities, which have been Reflectable. Not that I would mind them being subject to Reflect or M-EV really....

Still, hunh. That's a pain in the ass.

*notes this in general*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 03, 2012, 11:02:53 pm
QuoteI'd rather not have Transparent on anything else considering how much I loathe Hidden Knife and still feel that needs to "change". Regardless of my opinion on that,

Oh no, unevadability = OP!
Quotethere's also the matter that there simply isn't any room for new Item Attributes without overriding something else. The only reason my Headband/Ribbon changes would work is because Focus Band would share an already existing one and other two already have their own isolated Item Attributes. So, basically, you'd have to kill an Item Attribute to get +1 MA & Initial: Transparent on something.

Right and that's what I killed White Staff for.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 03, 2012, 11:32:53 pm
(Well that was slightly quicker than I was expecting.)

Even if it wasn't necessarily what I was expecting to get quoted really.

Quote from: Dokurider on November 03, 2012, 11:02:53 pm
Oh no, unevadability = OP!


Considering that whether something is avoidable or not is part of the entire balancing act, being unavoidable certainly can be overpowered. That said, I made no explicit mention of my problem with Hidden Knife being that it's "overpowered", that's it's "overpowered" because of Always: Transparent or that my sole problem with it is Always: Transparent.

The fact it currently still obviates Sasuke Knife is one of the things that keeps bugging me, which I'm still trying to think of a solution for.

Quote from: Dokurider on November 03, 2012, 11:02:53 pmRight and that's what I killed White Staff for.


...Except that there's nothing on White Staff to kill. Right now White Staff has no Item Attribute; it only casts Dia 50% of the time (if anyone would use it). So I don't understand how you "killed" anything on White Staff with respect to Item Attributes.

While it's true that you're just having it share White Robe's Item Attribute in your latest proposal, you're still asking for another new Item Attribute space, +1 MA & Always: Transparent, to be made solely for Wizard Staff. This when FFMaster ran out of Item Attribute space awhile ago. So, yeah, you'd still have to kill an Item Attribute for that, which is doubly not worth it to me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 04, 2012, 01:21:32 am
We aren't killing any attribute spaces. I have a good plan in the works to expand attribute space. One unique attribute for every item. Arena only of course, unless you can somehow find 0xf00 free bytes in SCUS.

I'm going to need someone who is good with spreadsheets when all my testing is done since I can't make one for the life of me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 04, 2012, 01:03:16 am
(*points at Raven*)

I'm at best only mediocre with spreadsheet stuff, though if you only need someone for tedious stuff, then I can probably do it instead of him.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 04, 2012, 02:11:10 am
Yeah, staves really do need to be differentiated from Rods.

Since idea are flying about...



White Staff - WP: 8; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Element: Holy; Special: 50% Cast: Dia; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

Healing Staff - WP: 14; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Special: Restore: HP, Strengthen: Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.

Wizard Staff - WP: 5; W-EV: 10%; Range: 1; Speed +1; Null:Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.

As for the other Staves, I don't know what to think about them.  Except I like Mace Of Zeus as it is.  Wizards don't have access to it and scholars have better options for boosting Lightning.


I'd like to see Mimes immune to Blind, DA, and Silence.  I don't think they'd be overpowered with those protections.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 04, 2012, 02:51:09 am
(More Speed isn't actually desirable for mages in most instances, so I can't get behind that Wizard Staff

As for Wizard's not having access to Mace of Zeus, other classes have access to Black Magic and I'm not seeing what better option that Scholars get for boosting Lightning.)

As for Mimes, I can't get behind any of that. I could may be get behind Blind if Concentrate were vulnerable to Blind (as it "should" be), but since it isn't and Mimes have Concentrate...yeah, it's superfluous. Similarly, Silencing a Mime does nothing IIRC; that's one of the things I'm pretty sure I tested personally years ago.

As for Don't Act, outright no. Mimes mean (a lot of) extra actions if used/planned correctly. There should be some way to stop extra actions besides outright Death (or Stop), especially since Silence doesn't work them as aforementioned. Additionally, like a quarter of the Mime teams that exist have a Monk on them, which means they have Stigma Magic to cure Don't Act if they're even worried about it since it doesn't show up all that commonly; Don't Act is frequent, yeah, but hardly on even half of all teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 04, 2012, 04:15:13 am
Quote from: The Damned on November 04, 2012, 02:51:09 am
(More Speed isn't actually desirable for mages in most instances, so I can't get behind that Wizard Staff

As for Wizard's not having access to Mace of Zeus, other classes have access to Black Magic and I'm not seeing what better option that Scholars get for boosting Lightning.)

Not a lot of classes have access to a speed boosts via weapons.  If Staves are to get a boost then I figured I'd try something out of the ordinary.

While it's true that other classes get access to Black Magic it's also true that Black Magic is very underpowered right now.  Plus, aside from Scholars, no other class has access a Wizards MA power.  Summoners can equip Staves, but Ramuh has a low Q value.  Scholars can boost Thunder Flare with Zeus, but Faith Rod or Wizard Rod will take it's place: in fact some teams are already spamming Thunder Flare with those.

Mimes seem underpowered but I'm willing to acknowledge that mine may be a minority opinion.  Mimes have no equip options to defend themselves from the most debilitating statuses.  I forgot about their innate Concentrate, but them getting silenced is still very bad.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 04, 2012, 06:20:33 am
(Everyone please remember to set your temporal-measuring devices back an hour if you or they themselves already haven't.)

Speaking of reminders, I suppose I should say again that as bossy as I can be and as much as I can nag FFMaster (especially), I'm ultimately not in control of things, so it's not like people should feel they have defend themselves especially again me. Not that I think that's the case in most instances here, but since I feel like I'm starting to become (extra) controlling again, I just feel the need to reiterate that. Sorry.

Quote from: reinoe on November 04, 2012, 04:15:13 am
Not a lot of classes have access to a speed boosts via weapons.  If Staves are to get a boost then I figured I'd try something out of the ordinary.


I suppose. I just don't see how speed boosts, even if they are rare (with good reason), really belong on any most mage weapons. I could maybe see them on Sticks or even Harps, but that's because both of those have distance and I'd argue their main magical classes, Oracle & Bard respectively, actually benefit from being a little faster like Priest. When it comes it on a Stave, it makes "sense" in the sense that a Stave easily doubles as a "walking stick", but as far as functionality goes.... Well, we were just talking about how speed isn't good for Time Mages. As such, I'd rather keep all Staves as something that Time Mages can use well if they're going to be forced to use only them (and Bags).

That might just be me though.

Quote from: reinoe on November 04, 2012, 04:15:13 am
While it's true that other classes get access to Black Magic it's also true that Black Magic is very underpowered right now.


Aside from Flare being overpriced, I'm not really seeing this, especially since Black Magic(k) technically extends into spellguns.

Why, besides Flare, do you think Black Magic is still "very underpowered"? 

Quote from: reinoe on November 04, 2012, 04:15:13 amPlus, aside from Scholars, no other class has access a Wizards MA power.  Summoners can equip Staves, but Ramuh has a low Q value.  Scholars can boost Thunder Flare with Zeus, but Faith Rod or Wizard Rod will take it's place: in fact some teams are already spamming Thunder Flare with those.


And some teams are "spamming" Thunder Flare with Zeus Mace, which is really more beneficial in the long to "spamming" Thunder Flare as it is now. Even with it losing Strengthening, it would still be the best thing to Spam Zeus Mace with.

Quote from: reinoe on November 04, 2012, 04:15:13 am
Mimes seem underpowered but I'm willing to acknowledge that mine may be a minority opinion.  Mimes have no equip options to defend themselves from the most debilitating statuses.  I forgot about their innate Concentrate, but them getting silenced is still very bad.


I agree that I'd like to see Mimes get equipment options. I think that everyone would, but it's annoyingly hardcoded and no one has figured it out for years, so who knows when (or if) it will ever happen, especially in ARENA.

As for them being Silenced, I'm pretty sure that being Silenced doesn't affect their Miming at all. I'll admit that I'm not entirely sure, but I'm inclined to think that I'm actually remembering something correctly for once.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 04, 2012, 02:40:05 pm
+1 Speed seems like an interesting idea for Wizard Staff. I'm fine with this proposal.

Mimes are hard to use, not underpowered. Mimes can give so much free damage, either directly (mimicking an action that hurts an enemy) or indirectly (via buffs, like Songs). Pretty huge upside to them. Of course, Mimes are fairly useless on their own, but they're not meant to be used on their own.
They do have protection from some rather debilitating statuses, by the way. Dead is really bad because 1. Mimes are really tanky and 2. Dead Mimes = no free actions. Undead is bad because you don't have a reliable way to get your Mime back once they get Raise 2'd (not to mention if he does get back, it takes 4 turns) -> no free actions. Petrify, even if most teams have a way to cure it, is still obviously really bad. Berserk... eh, it's certainly worse if a support member gets hit by it, but Mimes don't have great melee damage and I think Berserk stops them from miming. If Frog didn't now cancel upon death, I'd suggest giving Mimes immunity to Frog, but it's also a fairly rare status.

Wait, Black Magic got a massive buff and it's still underpowered? Water element 1. allows for Water-absorb based teams and 2. gives Black Magic unreflectable magic. Reflect no longer shuts down Black Magic. Tier 1 spells now can proc status, all of which are fairly relevant. Nether spells use Un-Fury formula, which allows them to hurt 40/40 units (since Black Magic users will also usually have 40 Fury themselves). The damage is solid, too. Tier 1 spells can do 200+ (provided you're built for damage). I really don't see how Black Magic is underpowered.

I also have no idea where you get the ideas that Scholars have better options for boosting Lightning and that Thunder Flare spammers would rather use Faith Rod or Wizard Rod. Ok, Faith Rod I can understand since it dramatically boosts magic, but certainly not Wizard Rod. Strengthen: Element will almost certainly give at least 3 MA, and 3 > 2. You also get automatic Absorb: Lightning with Mace of Zeus, and that's what makes it the best weapon to use for Thunder Flare. Strengthen and Absorb of the same element in one Item. Since you think Black Robe or 108 Gems is better for boosting Lightning than Thunder Flare (does anything else Strengthen: Lightning? oh Kaiser Plate, I suppose. I think that's all though), notice how you need to devote a second equipment slot to Absorb Lightning if you use either of those items, including Kaiser Plate if you decide to give your Scholar Equip Shield. It's simply worse.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 04, 2012, 03:56:49 pm
The back&forth is enjoyable, especially compared to a situation I'm dealing with on Facebook...

Spoilering to save space...

Quote from: The Damned on November 04, 2012, 06:20:33 am
(Everyone please remember to set your temporal-measuring devices back an hour if you or they themselves already haven't.)

Speaking of reminders, I suppose I should say again that as bossy as I can be and as much as I can nag FFMaster (especially), I'm ultimately not in control of things, so it's not like people should feel they have defend themselves especially again me. Not that I think that's the case in most instances here, but since I feel like I'm starting to become (extra) controlling again, I just feel the need to reiterate that. Sorry.

I suppose. I just don't see how speed boosts, even if they are rare (with good reason), really belong on any most mage weapons. I could maybe see them on Sticks or even Harps, but that's because both of those have distance and I'd argue their main magical classes, Oracle & Bard respectively, actually benefit from being a little faster like Priest. When it comes it on a Stave, it makes "sense" in the sense that a Stave easily doubles as a "walking stick", but as far as functionality goes.... Well, we were just talking about how speed isn't good for Time Mages. As such, I'd rather keep all Staves as something that Time Mages can use well if they're going to be forced to use only them (and Bags).

That might just be me though.

Aside from Flare being overpriced, I'm not really seeing this, especially since Black Magic(k) technically extends into spellguns.

Why, besides Flare, do you think Black Magic is still "very underpowered"? 

And some teams are "spamming" Thunder Flare with Zeus Mace, which is really more beneficial in the long to "spamming" Thunder Flare as it is now. Even with it losing Strengthening, it would still be the best thing to Spam Zeus Mace with.

I agree that I'd like to see Mimes get equipment options. I think that everyone would, but it's annoyingly hardcoded and no one has figured it out for years, so who knows when (or if) it will ever happen, especially in ARENA.

As for them being Silenced, I'm pretty sure that being Silenced doesn't affect their Miming at all. I'll admit that I'm not entirely sure, but I'm inclined to think that I'm actually remembering something correctly for once.



Black Magic seems underpowered because it's rarely chosen as a secondary.  I supposed it could be that it's actually perfectly balanced, but people are just not choosing Black Magic.  I used to play a CCG and incredibly powerful strategies sometimes wouldn't get used because people didn't discover them until they were proven to be effective.



I'd increase the power of Healing Staff to 14 because it never sees any play.  I see the Season 1 stats and it never saw any play, and it's currently not seeing any play now.

Wizard Staff getting a speed boost is to give spellcasters an option that they currently have in only a limited capacity.

I'm feeling inspired...
Gold Staff - WP: 10; W-EV: 30%; Range: 1; Special: 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.
The high power is to encourage people to create spellcasters who will enter combat.  Since magic-users are squishy I'd greatly increase the Evasion on the staff as well.


I have no idea what to do with Rainbow Staff.






Surprisingly these seem to be going under the radar when it comes to weapons that need balancing.  Of course like I said previously, these things could be perfectly balanced, but nobody has tried them out yet.

Long Bow - WP: 14; W-EV: 10%; Range: 6; Special: Move+1; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No.

For lightning bow and Ice Bow perhaps let them stay the same but instead of the MA bonus give them PA bonus.



Yeah, I suck at balancing.  But with enough crappy ideas maybe one of them will actually be usable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 04, 2012, 09:49:47 pm
(I'm not sure that's a fair comparison considering Facebook is a "social network", which means it pretty much is automatically horrible. [/has no social network "page"])

I see. I will respond in an enumerated fashion if only because I've used spoilers enough already (on this page) and this should be comparatively concise:

1. Judging Black Magic(k)...By Secondaries: I'm not really sure that's such a good judgment for several reasons, one of them being the CCG analogy that you point out. Even that isn't really as appropriate since the relative smallness of ARENA and the constant "expansions" means that most of us still generally don't "copy" each other within the same version and there's been at least nine in the past couple of years. Due to all the changes it just endured, Black Magic as a whole is very new again.

Aside from that, when it comes to Secondaries, that tends to automatically get dominated by things with revival. This seems especially true on the magickal side given that White Magic(k) and Summon Magic(k) both have the higher revival than all their physical (or, in the case of Phoenix Down, just non-magickal) counterparts and come with attacks; Summon Magic even comes with AoE. Since even Basic Skill sees use as a Secondary despite Wish being horrible, even moreso after Poison's boost (as a status), and since Black Magic is one of the many skill sets that doesn't have revival, that tends to be a factor.

Another factor is that even with the Nether Magick, a lot of people want to deal more reliable magick damage, for which there is always still Draw Out and, to a lesser degree now, Summon Magic.

Probably the most pressing one that I can think of, though, is simply that a lot of people tend to use Wizards as their primary due to the high MA you pointed out when you were arguing that Mace of Zeus should keep Strengthen Lightning. So "arguably" Black Magic is better used as a Primary than a Secondary anyway since Wizard's stats are actually rather good, especially now that Rods go off MA rather than PA.


2. Six Sagely Staves: I'd argue that Healing Staff still won't get use regardless of how high its WP is as long as all it does is a) heal at close-range only and b) only strengthen an element that's only found on two classes, both of which already have distance and AoE healing. The only way its WP would matter is if you boosted it so high that it easily did enough to OHKO Undead units with at least 250+ HP and even then it would probably still only be found on, you know, teams that actually tried to cause Undead (of which there are already a few).

Hence why I only increased its W-EV and focused on increasing its usability via Strengthen. With Strengthen Dark to compliment Holy (and not use up a new Item Attribute), it automatically becomes useful to Time Mages (Demi, Demi 2), Scholars (Shadow Shade, Bio 3), Samurai (Koutetsu...though it's inferior to Koutetsu Knife for just that unless on an Undead-causing team), weird Ninja (Meiton and, technically, Kagesougi and Tsumazuku) and Wizards (since Death is technically Dark, even if Wizards can't equip Staves naturally) as well. This in addition to becoming more useful to Summoners, even if Odin doesn't need a boost, and actually being usable with Two Swords with other Staves besides itself and the currently overpowered Mace of Zeus, which is far better used for distance healing already/at present; of course, the latter only really applies with my other changes to White Staff and Wizard Staff.

...Getting away from self-promotion, I can't agree with Gold Staff having that much evasion. Mages are squishy, but they're not that squishy. And there's really no reason that anything that gives 30% P-EV should be able to used with Two Swords. Even 20% W-EV is kinda pushing it, but at least that is more or less "equal" to just a single Main Gauche. Similarly, the WP seems a bit much since it has a reliable special effect unlike pretty much every other weapon aside from Chaos Blade, Poison Rod and Bloody Strings.

Besides, IMO, Rainbow Staff should probably be the strongest WP-wise (after Healing Staff) if it's probably "only" just going to get Block: Oil, which is enough really since then it allows Mages & Squires (and others that already equip Shields, if they use Equip Magegear) to use elemental shields without having to use an Armor or Accessory slot to not die horribly to their weakness. It would get additional points just for Blocking Oil, especially if Oil got a boost, which I'm getting more and more uncertain about blocking.


3. Long Bows Are (Probably) Fine: Admittedly, they may still be slightly overshadowed "Because (Spell)guns" and having 100% accuracy unless you use Projectile Guard...which also blocks Longbows (and Crossbows). As with Black Magic and, really, anything you feel is underpowered or overpowered, it's better to try to make a team yourself to use that technique to show its crippling flaws or overwhelming power than to wonder "what if". You seem capable enough of that and pretty everyone (else) here is nice enough to give you advice without biting off you head if you want it (or, at times, even if you don't).


...What? That's concise for me. I did say "comparatively" after all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 04, 2012, 10:34:52 pm
Procs are not apart of Item Attributes. Noted.

Black Magic is just fine. It's just people's preferences skewing the data.

+1 Speed on Wizard Staff would be good for Draw Out Mages and other non-caster builds. Making staves appealing outside of casters is good.

30% W-Ev is way too high, especially if they are to be two sworded, ending up with 60% W-Ev. Just way too high. Take away Two Swords? Make them Forced Two Hands? They work best being Two Swordable, because Gold Staff is very attractive for mix and matching with other weapons. Gold Staff/Poison Rod would be a decent combo. Or Gold Staff/Dragon Rod. Both of which nets you 30% W-Ev. 20% W-EV is perfectly fine.

Increasing the power of the Healing Staff is not going to change anything. Honestly, after thinking it over, I think it's just an underutilized weapon. Other than it's sister weapon, the Murasame, it is the only weapon in the game that guarantees your caster unit is not going to go full retard and whack a slab of meat covered in metal for dink damage and die when it's turn comes up. Sealing the melee option may actually be a worthwhile, if somewhat abstract, option. It means that a unit can freely invest in Move without worrying about the unit straying out of reach of your team.

I think someone needs to make the first plunge and see how well it actually works out. I was actually considering equipping the priest and my Time Mage (coincidentally, the only Time Mage in Arena play) with Healing Staff, but I reconsidered because I wanted Auto Regen instead. I might just try putting my money where my mouth is and try it myself. I'll update my teams to try this out shortly. Also consider it's a stronger, instant Cure. If you're willing to gamble a little, it can save your unit some much needed JP. It's only real problem in this regard is that a unit who want to use it in this regard have low brave, resulting in suboptimal healing. Perhaps it should be exempted from the Fury mechanic somehow, or perhaps it should have it's WP upped after all.

I'd rather have Long Bow increased to 7, maybe 8, Range than +1 Move. Nobody thinks the +1 Range stands up to +1 PA, +1 Speed, or Element typing with a helping of procs. Alternatively, keep the +1 Range, but give it Initial: Float. I do agree that the 2 MA is useless on the Elemental Bows and should be removed, perhaps replaced even. I would just bump it's WP to 14 instead of +2 PA though.

Since we're mentioned under used weapons:
Slasher: 8 WP, 50% Extra Attack.
Just an interesting revamp to an otherwise unimpressive weapon. 12 WP isn't all the impressive, especially if you're going to hit for only half of it's damage half of the time. It's far wiser to opt for it's less cousin that comes with the Decap proc or it's Ele Boosting Cousin.

Persian: Initial: Haste
Cashmere: +2 Speed

Good Dance Bots value Speed over damage, wanting to get started Dancing as soon as possible to disrupt the enemy. These changes will allow Dancers to naturally take that route. Initial: Protect and Shell don't really help dancers out all that much. Dedicated dancers rarely get good use out of them before they wear off.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 05, 2012, 12:10:17 am
(Hunh. Hadn't realized I'd gotten the actual 777th post in here.)

Before I forget again, I have to again ask something: Has anyone checked to see if Shieldrender's proc is working if Bowgun's supposedly isn't? Same with making sure that Focus is actually working since someone said it supposedly wasn't?


Quote from: Dokurider on November 04, 2012, 10:34:52 pm
Procs are not apart of Item Attributes. Noted. *snip*


Ohhhhh.... That's where your confusion was.

Yeah, we'd be pretty screwed variability-wise if Procs weren't independent of Item Attributes like Elements, WP, EV, Speed, PA, MA, MP and, of course, HP already are. There are already only 64 Item Attributes spaces in the game--as opposed to the 112 spaces for Inflict Statuses. And it's already difficult to create variability over 300+ items.

If procs were a part of it, then we'd all be screwed. (Even if, "ironically", Square would have likely afforded Item Attributes more space because of that.)

As for everything else....

1. Black Magic(k): I concur.


2. + 1 Speed Wizard Staff: Still feeling Meh. I'd rather not encourage already overused Draw Out on mages, but again, I accept that this might just be me.


3. Gold Staff: I concur.


4. Healing Staff (& Murasame): Hmmm...that's certainly an interesting way to think about it, especially in terms of Murasame. I wonder.....

Still, I think that Healing Staff does need a bit of an upgrade still, just not WP-wise. I think it needs an upgrade in part because, IIRC, it's still subject to P-EV despite it being advantageous to hit, just like Cursed Ring & Death('s formula).

I'll try and think of something, though I currently have two other teams in mind in addition to having to fix at least three of my own. Maybe I'll work in it into the non-elemental one, though someone else could always do it, especially since I kind of want to work more with Murasame at present....


5. Long Bow, Lightning Bow & Ice Bow: At present, nothing has Initial Float, so that's out. I'd say +1 Move or Range 7 actually isn't really a bad idea, but I'm not sure it needs it, really, since it's not like it's that much weaker than the other bows and it having plus two range over them seems a bit much.

As for Lightning Bow & Ice Bow, yeah, the +2 MA are doing even less now then when those were supposed to actually procing things that would be strengthened by it. At the same time, them still having that isn't really hurting anything and I think they already have enough power, especially now that they proc things that are a lot more dangerous in hands of an Archer.

6. Slasher: I suppose I could get behind this since only advantages that Slasher has over Battle Axe at present being better with the Cross attacks and having higher potential damage (if the opponent absorbs Dark, since I'm pretty sure Decapitation is Dark given its nature). Of and of course both of those are trumped by Giant Axe due to its innate Strengthening.


7. Cloths that don't Reflect: I see where you're coming from, but I have to respectively disagree that Initial: Protect & Initial: Shell aren't useful for Dancers at all. However, in this instance, the changes you propose are currently possible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 05, 2012, 12:16:19 am
Focus should be working. I just found out there is no animation though, you can check it for yourself midbattle. As for Shieldrender/Bowgun, I currently have no idea.

On an unrelated note: I got the item attribute extend hack working. So no more troubles about that. According to my calculations, there should be more than enough room for 1 attribute for every item.

Raven: How long do you think it will take to make a spreadsheet for item attributes 50-EF?

EXTRA NOTE: Formula 07(Healing Staff) isn't evadable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 05, 2012, 01:54:41 am
FFMaster called me out so I guess I'm gonna have to reply to this shit.  Goddamnit.  I swear to fucking god, learn some vocabulary.  I don't mind long posts, but posts that are long because people couldn't be bothered to be concise irk me.

You'll have to talk to me about making a Spreadsheet on how the fuck the thing works, but it should be pretty easy.  I can make one entry and copy/paste like a champion to get it going most likely.


I'll reply to other shit bottom-up:

Element Bows and +2 MA: If you don't have anything better to do don't remove it.  It's incentive to run your Archer with a magical secondary because their base MA is abysmal and, unlike most physical units, have no Rune Blade or equivalent item to compensate.  Think of them as Elemental Rune Blades.

The Damned's vicious mauling of my Clothing changes works, I guess.  The main reason that list puts Golden Harpin at 60 HP is because it essentially grants +3 or more of to BOTH PA/MA for relevant units along with +30 MP.  70/30 with just STR: Elem should be fine though.

Dokurider, you seem to not understand how the Axe formula in Arena works.  You don't hit for half its damage half of the time.  The BASE damage is PA*12, then it goes in either direction by 50%.  You're going to hit for under PA*12 half the time, but it's very very rare that you hit for the bottom-value PA*6, especially with high-PA units.  It randomizes the PA value, so units with bigger PA stacks are less likely to deal minimum damage.  (Also less likely to deal maximum, but this swings for PA*12 and is compatible with Two Hands with 30% EVD, you can kill things adequately with far lower than maximum damage.)  A good Slasher-bot can oneshot basically anything, but it is kind of redundant having it and Battle Axe in the same weapon set.  Your change actually makes Slasher WORSE by making it even less reliable.  PA*8 base damage is horrifically bad, and 50% on another PA*8... math the two together, and your average base damage is PA*12.  If you get incredibly lucky you can deal a shitton of damage, but a max-damage Slasher already oneshots basically everything so that doesn't mean shit.  Basically, you took a mediocre weapon and through a lack of understanding the random permutations made it even more random without actually increasing its expected base damage at all.

Re: The people who want to change Wizard Staff - You're forgetting something very important.  It's a clone of Wizard Rod but it's used by different classes.  The only classes that overlap both weapons are Summoner and Scholar.  Changing Wizard Rod means that notably Priests and Time Mages lose a strong +2 MA option.  Their only other means of getting +2 MA is the much weaker C Bag, which gives these units no offensive functionality whatsoever.  Not only that, but you want to change it to a +1 Speed item for Draw Out primary users who don't need a functional Attack command in most cases... which they can already receive from H Bag, whose drawback they can ignore since their primary offense is Draw Out itself, as noted before.  Sense, this makes none.  Please hang up and try again.

Healing Staff gaining Boost: Dark would actually work pretty well, but you'd better rename that shit into a Chaos Staff or something for it to make sense.  Giving Rainbow Staff Immune: Oil and second-highest WP behind Healing Staff is fine and dandy too.

Why are we being dumb and removing Strengthen: Lightning from Mace of Zeus NOW, when that's endured and not been a problem for around 10 updates and alternates to it have only gotten stronger?  It's a "bloated" weapon to be sure, but Arena doesn't have too many of them and a few here and there are fine for variety.

Silence indeed stops their ability to Mime a skill suppressed by Silence.  However, I don't see this as an issue as a team with Silence-weakness either runs a means to heal it or is okay with accepting a potential loss to Silence anyway.  Mimes are immune to the majority of the pain-in-the-ass statuses that suppress their Miming, they need some kind of non-damage based weaknesses such as the "lesser" status of Don't Act / Silence / Blind / etc. to keep them in check against teams not based on dealing 100,000 damage a turn, which was one of their problems back in 1.30 Arena - they were immune to all status and any low-damage team auto-lost to Mime teams.  Give them too many advantages and we'll be going back to feeding people Mime teams on a plate because they're too stupid to figure it out for themselves, as Mimes are already incredible in the correct circumstances.

Flare, lower MP cost, blah blah blah.

If there's anything in particular I forgot to comment on do tell me and I'll tell off whoever wrote the suggestion post-haste.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 05, 2012, 03:27:15 pm
DATA TIME WOOO

Item Attributes
   0x00 - PA
   0x01 - MA
   0x02 - Speed
   0x03 - Move
   0x04 - Jump
   0x05 - Innate Statuses 1
   0x06 - Innate Statuses 2
   0x07 - Innate Statuses 3
   0x08 - Innate Statuses 4
   0x09 - Innate Statuses 5
   0x0a - Status Immunity 1
   0x0b - Status Immunity 2
   0x0c - Status Immunity 3
   0x0d - Status Immunity 4
   0x0e - Status Immunity 5
   0x0f - Starting Status 1
   0x10 - Starting Status 2
   0x11 - Starting Status 3
   0x12 - Starting Status 4
   0x13 - Starting Status 5
   0x14 - Absorbed Elements
   0x15 - Nullified Elements
   0x16 - Halved Elements
   0x17 - Elemental Weakness
   0x18 - Elements Strengthened


Status sets(0x05-0x13) - These are for Starting/Innate/Immune statii. For example, status Set 1 will apply to Starting/Innate/Immune status 1

Status Set 1
   0x80 -
   0x40 - Crystal
   0x20 - Dead
   0x10 - Undead
   0x08 - Charging
   0x04 - Jump
   0x02 - Defending
   0x01 - Performing

Status Set 2
   0x80 - Petrify
   0x40 - Invite
   0x20 - Darkness
   0x10 - Confusion
   0x08 - Silence
   0x04 - Blood Suck
   0x02 - Cursed
   0x01 - Treasure

Status Set 3
   0x80 - Oil
   0x40 - Float
   0x20 - Reraise
   0x10 - Transparent
   0x08 - Berserk
   0x04 - Chicken
   0x02 - Frog
   0x01 - Critical

Status Set 4
   0x80 - Poison
   0x40 - Regen
   0x20 - Protect
   0x10 - Shell
   0x08 - Haste
   0x04 - Slow
   0x02 - Stop

Status Set 5
   0x80 - Faith
   0x40 - Innocent
   0x20 - Charm
   0x10 - Sleep
   0x08 - Don't Move
   0x04 - Don't Act
   0x02 - Reflect
   0x01 - Death Sentence

Elements(0x14-0x19) - for all Elemental Strengthen/Weak/Half/Absorb/Null
      0x80 - Dark
      0x40 - Holy
      0x20 - Water
      0x10 - Earth
      0x08 - Wind
      0x04 - Ice
      0x02 - Lightning
      0x01 - Fire




The data has no gaps in between, all it really needs to do is spit out a huge line of numbers. Starting address is 0x610e8. Attributes will go from 50 to EF, or 160 separate item attributes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 05, 2012, 04:35:25 pm
Yeah that's easy.  I'll do it tonight probably.  The main issue will be getting a nice interface since a lot of data has to be displayed but I'll figure it out.  I'll probably just copy FFTPatcher to an extent.  The only really time-consuming part of this will be getting it to wire the numbers together correctly, but I think I can steal code from one of my old sheets to save effort on that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 06, 2012, 02:25:40 am
Small update, interface is done but wiring it will take time.  It's simple work but tedious.  Expect it to probably be a few days.  Here's a shot of your fancy-pancy interface:

(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2253/attributehackpreview.png)

It's nice and incredibly user-friendly for if/when you find a way to adapt this to general use. 

PA/MA/SP/MOVE/JUMP are simple hex values.  Input the hex you want and it adds it, just keep it two-digits.  I could've set it up to work with DEC and convert everything properly but I'm lazy and no one will ever use a value greater than 09 anyway.  The rest will be a simple O/X check.  O = True and X = False.  For the sake of a failsafe any non-O value will also return a False but O/X is the system I'll be using by default.  Column A will also use an alternating Violet/Creme pattern for Attributes to help you keep note of where you are while doing things as the workbook is very long vertically.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 06, 2012, 03:17:28 am
Awesome, that's a good layout. Is it possible to split it into multiple worksheets? If you split it into 5 worksheets, each with 0x20 attributes, then it would involve less scrolling. Or is that too much work?

As far as it being used for general purposes, the system overwrites job data starting at job 01. If you use less item attributes, you can use the later jobs for unique jobs. Arena pushes the system to the limit, and will still have some room for unique jobs. For example, if you needed 10 more attributes, it will be safe to use special jobs 0A and onward, or maybe even a few before that. I haven't got exact calculations though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 06, 2012, 03:19:51 am
Moving it between 5 worksheets would make it a lot harder to wire up but I'll see what I can do.   I haven't wired enough for multiple sheets to cause me to lose work, but it might become annoying later.  If I can find an easy way to split it up though I'll split it so that there's 16 Attributes per Sheet.  So 50-5F, 60-6F, etc. to keep it intuitively organized.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 08, 2012, 01:13:06 pm
Yeah, I guess I didn't read the new Axe formula too well.

I don't care how crazy this is, I'm just going to throw it out there.

Germinas Boots: 2 Move, Always: Death Sentence

This would make a high move unit viable, using the AI's tendency to ignore DS'd units to create a kamikaze unit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on November 08, 2012, 03:16:20 pm
The battle would never end. To my knowledge, the AI will -never- target a Doomed unit, even if it's the only one left.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 08, 2012, 03:24:51 pm
^

It will however target a Doomed unit if that unit has a skill charging on the CT list.

This is still the kind of idea I think is really bad though, personally.  Slap a high-damage unit like a Two Hands Samurai with power boosts on with this and the anti-Dead helmet and suddenly you have a unit getting 3 free turns where things probably die each go and his only drawback is a turn skip because Arena does not apply the Doom ignores Dead ASM as protection from both is bundled.  Even if it adopted that ASM though, you're still giving +2 Move and what's essentially 3 free oneshots on anything that's not a large map unless the opposing team is incredibly bulky.  No thank you.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on November 09, 2012, 12:29:47 am
One semi random question. Does Move distance affect teleport disance?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 09, 2012, 12:40:06 am
Yes. The current maximum move that the AI can move via Teleport is equal to their Move. I've got a hack that will let them move further, but it does make the AI very dumb. It will always try to move the max distance possible, without regard to fail chance. I've considered making it something like this(a few ideas here):

Teleport: Allows unit to move 2 spaces further than current Move. Has a 30% chance to fail regardless of the distance moved.

Teleport: Allows unit to have a Move action after Act, even if the unit has already moved. Does not allow 2 Move actions after an Act action.

Teleport: Changes Move based on MA. Move becomes MA/3, rounded down.

Teleport: Increases Move based on % of HP. +1 Move when HP > 50%. 0 Move when lower.

All Teleport ideas still retain the original teleport effects, such as ignoring obstacles and terrain.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 09, 2012, 01:06:48 am
The only one that sound reasonable would be the first idea of Move + 2 with 30% of failing. If I'm understand the second idea right, it sounds more broken than Teleport 2. You'd be uncatchable as you hit and run the entire team. The third idea just makes MA stackers even more powerful. Flying mini-Elmdors everywhere. The 4th is pretty meh. It's a conditional Move + 1.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 09, 2012, 02:00:10 am
0/10, don't really like any and don't see the point in them.  A flat 30% chance to fail just makes it a luck-based Movement that no one will want to use.  The other ideas are all just bad.  HP based one just makes it inferior to Fly in every way, MA based one just locks Teleport to mages always forever and encourages thoughtless MA stacking, and the Fire Emblem style one just further obviates long-ranged weapons like bows by allowing a melee unit to move in, attack, and leave.  Insert Samurai with power stack and Germinas Boots here. (Whether the AI will actually DO that... no idea.  If they're not doing it and just being stupid with it, it just becomes a pointless change so it's a lose/lose either way.)

If you're looking to differentiate Fly and Teleport a bit, you could merge Float and Fly together so that a unit with Fly can stop on any tile but one with Teleport can move through walls.  They're otherwise functionally the same and each advantage is better or worse depending on the map.  (EG, New Fly would be better on a map like Zigolis Swamp whereas Teleport is better on one like Underground Book Storage First Floor which has a big ass wall in the center.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 09, 2012, 02:58:22 am
It's more trying to give them uses.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 09, 2012, 05:01:28 am
(Before I forget again, I noticed something when Dokurider posted his "Magic Missile" team: Master Guide says the Female Geomancer only has 3 Move, not 4. Furthermore, checking FFTPatcher right now, it would seem that both sides say that Geomancers only have 3 Jump when they actually have 4.)

...I'm not really sure what your "them" is referring to, but I have to concur with Raven that all those changes to Teleport would change it for the worse. Of them, the MA-one is probably the least worse considering it would theoretically encourage more MA*WP use. However, it's probably really encourage even more Draw Out, which hardly (read: doesn't) needs help.

If Float & Fly could be merged, then that would probably be for the best. Of course, that brings up the question of what the hell to do with Ignore Height still since that's obviated by both Teleport and Fly in almost every possible way, especially since fall damage occurs so rarely.

I'm not sure if anything *can* be done with that though, much like Defend.

Regardless, if Fly and Float get merged, I'm guessing that would get kept on Time Mage, right? If so, then we can move Move -1 to Bard & Dancer? Because, really, Paladin has absolutely no use for that.

****

I sincerely apologize for my inability to concise, Raven. I will legitimately try to keep it this series of replies to your post at the top of the page concise, especially since I really have other things I should be doing as always.

I'll keep all replies to three (regular-length) sentences:


1. Elemental Bows Keeping +2 MA for now: I concur; it's not hurting anyone, even if it's helping the Bows even less now.


2. Mauled Clothing: Yeah, sorry about that. I figured that's what you were aiming for. To me though, without the +1 MA, the Str: Holy & Dark seemed narrow enough to not justify the HP drop, at least if the other two were going to get +10 HP when they're more general and apply to every, even if the Strengthen element has the potential be bigger.


3. Axes Don't Work Like That: Oh, right, that crappy formula has been long fixed. Whoops. Still, maybe Slasher could use a bit of boost since it's weaker than Giant Axe when its own Strengthen is taken into account and Battle Axe's proc arguably makes that outright stronger too.


4. Wizard Staff differing from Wizard Rod: Actually, I was taking into the account that not every class that gets Staves can use Rods. Only Priest really "suffers" though since Time Mage's primary (like Oracle) didn't/doesn't really benefit that much from MA +2 anyway presently. Also, I wasn't agreeing with the +1 Sp Staff at all, hence why my Wizard Staff suggestion looks nothing like that and was trying to heavily benefit Priest as well as Time Mage as compensation.


5. Healing Staff and Rainbow Staff: ...That said, I've now decided that if any Staff does get +1 Sp, then Rainbow Staff should probably get it in addition to Neutral: All Elements and Block: Oil. As for Healing Staff getting a name change, I'm game if relatively indifferent that it gets one. Either "Chaos Staff" or "Cosmos Staff" works perfectly IMO.


6. Mace of Zeus's Achilles Heel: I'm not entirely sure it needs nerfing, hence making a new team to test it to its "fullest", but it just seems more prominent. Obnoxiously so now, frankly, as well being kind of braindead. I think it's just sticking out more that Lightning is already the strongest element damage-wise on Wizard now that those elements actually differ, which seems unnecessary.


7. Mimes Actually Being Affected by Silence: Well, shit, of course I'd be wrong. So noted. I concur they don't need immunity to Silence, especially since Sing and Dance still can't be Silenced anyway.


8. Flare Getting Lower MP: Yeah.


I'll try to make my (final?) suggestion list tomorrow of bearable length even inside the spoilers.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 09, 2012, 06:28:05 am
Time Mages still benefit from Wizard Rod's +2 MA. Again, it's called Secondaries.  If your Time Mage runs White Magic or Black Magic secondary (neither is very unreasonable), Wizard Rod helps a lot while +1 SPD is still generally not as useful.  Since you can get the one not given by the staff from a Bag, it makes more sense to keep +2 MA on the MA*WP weapon and relegate +1 SPD to the catch-all.  That was more in reply to Dokurider and co anyway who were suggesting that +1 SPD change, since I didn't really use quotes or anything on that post.

...You could give +1 SPD to Healing Staff if you REALLY want a +1 SPD Staff, though.  It would give the weapon a secondary use beyond healing things and it again synergizes with the whole "healers are better when they're faster" schtick when combined with Gaignun's stat changes by making Priests into 10 SPD with a healing Attack command.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 09, 2012, 06:38:06 pm
(Yeah, I suppose +1 Spd would be best on the Healing Staff if people want one at all. I was originally discounting that because of the Item Attribute cap; well, that and people saying they still felt that Rainbow Staff didn't really "do" anything...despite blocking Oil and having the highest attack of Staves now.)

With regards to Wizard Staff, that's understandable. It's not like I'm always trying to discount Secondaries. I just feel like Primaries take especial precedent in this case, at least if Time Mage is stuck only with Staves [and Bags] as weapon options and we're trying to buff the class. I also don't think Priest needs anymore buffs when it already has solid attack options despite being a healer because of Flail, so it can "kick rocks" to me since it's not especially tough loss IMO.

Of course, whether that would make them ultimately worse as healers when compared to the still rather dubious Murasame....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on November 09, 2012, 06:47:08 pm
As far as Ignore Height goes, I really feel it should tie into the Jump skillset somehow, like lowering the CT of Jump or something. Just a random thought.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 09, 2012, 07:02:22 pm
(Jump already seems fast enough, though, if only because of current +Speed spears usually making them 5 turn Jumps. Still, it's something at least, which is better than what I've ever thought of; this means I'll probably steal the solution for Embargo if it works FYI.)

Getting back to Staves, it just occurred to me that if there being a +2 MA Stave is so important and the +1 Spd is indeed better off on Healing/Chaos/Cosmos Staff alongside Strengthen Holy & Dark, then perhaps Rainbow Staff can get +2 MA? It would require its WP being lowered to the previous Wizard Staff's WP of 8, but it would give it "something" active to do aside from being really good with Shields with Block: Oil. Still, it might be a bit much, but meh.

I don't know, I'm just rather attached to my own proposal for Wizard/Black Staff admittedly. Between the lack of Dark type weapons--seriously, the only ones are Koutetsu Knife and Sadist's Whip, which are extremely similar--and wanting for Healing Staff to be useful/usable with Two Swords when it comes to other Staves, it seems "necessary". Of course, this is also taking into account that White Staff would become Holy element as parity to that so it would also be Two Swords usable with Healing Staff. Well that and just be usable in general, frankly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 10, 2012, 03:27:03 am
This is going to sound random as hell, but what if Ignore Height lessened the duration of negative status (negate 3 CT from each negative status each time moved)?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 10, 2012, 04:25:13 am
That is random and kinda dumb.

The thing people forget with Ignore Height is that all Movements DON'T need to be made equal.  Ignore Height, Fly, Jump +3, and Teleport in 99% of cases do the exact same thing - allow you to ignore the map's terrain and go wherever you want.  Each one has its own nuances and are better/worse in different situations but the general point is the same.  The main thing is availability - if you already run Lancer somewhere, that character doesn't need to open Fly, Teleport, or Jump +3 because Ignore Height is much cheaper to get and pretty much the same.

Of the four, Ignore Height IS probably the weakest because it has no secondary perk.  Jump +3 can negate Fall Damage and cross large horizontal chasms to somewhat mimic Fly/Teleport, Fly (if you merge it with Float) would allow you to ignore Water panels and other such things, and Teleport allows you to bypass walls.  Due to this, I could see changing it to some degree... but it should mostly stay how it is.  This way, the Physical and Magical trees both have two "ignore Terrain" options - Jump +3 and Ignore Height on the Physical end, and Teleport and Fly on the Magical end, with the stronger ones being on the Magical side to force Physical units to either spend more JP for quality or go with something slightly weaker.  It adds options and depth and those things are good.  Not everything needs to be created equal to be useful and an option.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 10, 2012, 04:45:39 am
(While I'm not sure that just thinking about Ignore Height becoming more useful is "kinda dumb" even if it is impossible for everything to be of equal use and still be differentiated....)

That said, I will concur that it is an immensely low priority compared to everything else, especially since no one really uses it as it is. I was just musing out loud since it's in at the bottom of the Movement "hierarchy" that Teleport dominates (when it comes to affecting actual movement).

At least it has a use, though, however outclassed. What do you think "should" be done with Defend, Raven? Just let continue to linger there so the newer people learn not to pick it and learn from their mistakes? Like Monster Talk, it currently has no real use. Unlike Monster Talk, however, which may eventually have a real use when/if ever monsters get added to ARENA, Defend's problems stem how the AI utterly abuses the status of it at present as seen with Nurse; the same Nurse which obviates the need to even have Defend as a Support really.

All that and it taking an Action seem to make rather unfeasible; of course, considering it can't be "fixed" by just making it not take Action since that would be utterly abusable with Blind....

I'm tempted to ask the same of Move=0, but considering that's so very new, I'll give that at least a few versions to linger and see whether it gets ever any use or not; I already said what I wanted to about Move -1.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 10, 2012, 09:42:33 am
Change "Defend" to "Status Defend UP" and it lowers the ct of negative status by 33 percent.  Instead of it being an action it's just innate.  I have no idea how to program such a thing though. 

16HRS later edit: I've seen a team use Move=0 (DarkxFatal's Shadows Unending).  Although the team using move=0 wound up losing the matchup 1 vs 3, the outcome could have been different if the Scholar in question simply continued to spam Shadow Flare instead of wasting time casting Death on a Squire named Trollbait equipped with Escutcheon+Leather Mantle+40 Faith.  So yeah, the only team using Move=0 lost in a very close match.  Move=0 helped because it saved the unit 20ct a turn. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 11, 2012, 01:35:39 am
Quote from: reinoe on November 10, 2012, 09:42:33 amMove=0 helped because it saved the unit 20ct a turn. 


How about just turning Move=0 into something that saves CT per turn?  Something like -1 move, but moving uses 10~20 fewer CT.  This falls in line with the "Move-CT UP" idea I had, but probably didn't announce.  Is this possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 11, 2012, 01:47:08 am
Well, yes, pretty much anything is possible. It just takes time and effort. As long as all the mechanics are laid out and the majority is happy, then I can give it a go.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 11, 2012, 02:37:01 am
(I suppose I should have clarified "ways to change Defend without basically killing it off" like how Chrono Trigger "killed" Sunken State even though they use the same spot.

An affects-negative-status-only, reverse (?) Spellbound could be interesting though, even if I don't ultimately now how to feel about it.)

I suppose I should still do this even though I still can't think of solutions for things for most things. Therefore, I'll just break this up into a couple of formal suggestions and a list of formal questions about if other things should be changed.

First, the Third Formal List of Suggestions™ is much smaller than the first:

1. Please make Wish's success rate 100% or close to 100%: Right now, even before taking Poison's buff screwing it over into account, Wish is not worth the 200 JP IMO. Even if it's "some" revival, most of the time, it just leads the unit get horribly killed again unless they can like heal close-to-max and then gets the reviver murdered because it's close-range only. The fact that it restores so little HP is understandable considering there's Monk's Revive, but the fact that it has exact same rate of success makes no sense, especially since it's still close-range. Only Phoenix Down heals less and that at least has 4 range most of the time and is 100% of the time. Something needs to change here....

2. Please change "Alacrity" to "Focus", "Venetian Shield" to "Zephyr Shield" (in the Master Guide) and "Ramia Harp" to "Lamia Harp": Self-explanatory, really. I mean, I called Alacrity "Focus" without even realizing it just last page and FFMaster called it the same in response, so....

3. Please make Hidden Knife's W-EV 0%: If Transparent is really supposed to be negating the Evade of the user, then it should be made more apparent and there's really no reason that Hidden Knife should have W-EV if that's case since it wouldn't matter. As it stands now, it would seem that Transparent users can still physically evade things, which apparently isn't what's supposed to be happening.

4. Should the extra Item Attribute space go through, please give Salty Rage "Block: Blind" in addition to its Initial: Berserk: Before I hadn't wanted to suggest that since its Item Attribute is tied to Genji Helmet now, which is already better than it. With the possibility of separation, getting over one of Berserk's weaknesses seems like it should go exclusively to it if ever wants to see real feasibility. It should probably get more than that, such as evasion that I suggested in the first List and/or "Block: Berserk" since that wouldn't interfere with "Initial: Berserk". I just needs to do something should the Initial: Berserk be lost, which Genji Helmet already achieves by way of "defense"/HP.

6. Please Replace Sprint Shoes with the Neutral: All Element Accessory: When it comes to making Crystal Shield's Item Attribute more useful, everyone pretty much agreed that it should go to an accessory and that Rainbow Staff should be buffed. With regards to the former, though, even with the Item Attribute extension that Raven is working on, there's no space. All the accessory space has been used since basically the beginning of ARENA and a lot of it fairly recent. As such, I would suggest that the least used Accessory (besides Salty Rage) be replaced and I'm pretty sure that's Sprint Shoes. Of course, with the extension, you could just give Sprint Shoes "Neutral: All Elements" on top of +1 Sp and it would probably finally see some use, but I'm not sure how I feel about that.... Ultimately, it's up to you as usual FFMaster.

Damn it, I think I forgot something. Oh well.

****

I suppose here is the First Formal List of Questions™:

1. Should there be any upgrading of Poles?: I've been trying to think of what, if anything, could be done to make them more usable without turning them into the obnoxious Two-Handed (Swedish) Murder Machines they were more than a year ago. So far, I've been able to come up with anything. ...I'm no longer sure, however, that they need to be improved though. I figure since I can't decide, I might as well make one team that focuses on them in the meantime.

2. Should Lamia Harp and Fairy Harp be improved in the face of Bloody Strings?: At present, there seems to be very little incentive to use the other two Harps with their iffy procs when they have the same power as something that drains HP 100% of the time and thus only backfires against Undead units. I know that Lamia Harp has seen a bit of use, but I honestly don't think anyone has ever used Fairy Harp. So, should the two be improved in some way? Or should Bloody Strings be nerfed? Or neither? Both?

3. Should Sasuke Knife be Improved?: Right now, it sees very little use because of it's basically automatically inferior to Hidden Knife's Always: Transparent in almost every instance, even for classes that don't automatically have Two Swords. So should it be boosted in some way? Or should Hidden Knife be weakened?

4. Should Masamune be Further Weakened?: Right now, despite the nerf to linearity, it still seems rather...overpowering. Not as busted as before, but it seems to outright obviate the Haste spells and the improved Regen & Poison spells. This when it's already in the same Job Class as Murasame, which is itself still kind of "suspect" in terms of power. Perhaps it's because I expected for Poison's buff to actually mean something, but with everyone running to Masamune (and why wouldn't they when it's 100% guaranteed?), that seems to not be happening for better or for worse. I remember people earlier talking about it should maybe be limited to one person or even just the user. Would that be acceptable change still if this is necessary? Does Masamune just need to change to something else by necessity? Or is it fine...if kind of obnoxiously prevalent? [/loaded question]


I guess that's "it". I was going to ask about Feather Boots, but like Poles, I'm no longer so sure that those needs changes or "improvements".


P.S. Since this happened while I was typing: Oh, so Move = 0 saves CT? I thought since the Movement was reduced to 0, "Moving" was automatically counted. If that's the case, then it has plenty of use then and is on the right class (unlike Move -1 currently). [/nagging]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 11, 2012, 03:53:14 am
1. No comment.
2. Sure whatever
3. Sure whatever
4. No comment.
6 (?). Sprint Shoes already see plenty of use, especially for Armor classes.

1. Nah
2. Bloody Strings is clearly heads and shoulders above the other harps. It could probably stand a WP drop, although I doubt that'll fix it.
3. Maybe. Ninjas obviously avoid it like the plague. But Thieves find it useful for adding speed + damage while keeping their evasion intact. I guarantee you that Squires would use the shit out of Sasuke Knife if they had access to them.
4. Masamune is still the number one provider of Haste. Is that a problem?

Move - 1, useless. Right.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 11, 2012, 05:07:09 am
(I didn't say that Move -1 was useless. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I said it's in the wrong class, like Equip Clothing currently is. Paladins have no use for Move -1, which would be far more appealing to mages, Bards and Dancers and even Archers. Considering the 250 JP requirement applies for every class you take, including your Primary and Secondary, making sure that a class can use its RSMs well or at least has sensible ones is at least somewhat important.)

Similarly, I never said that Sprint Shoes were unused. I just said they were the least used of the oldest accessories. This is going off my admittedly spotty memory of how little it's seen use--since it's not like all the old teams are around anymore--versus how long it's been around. Obviously Salty Rage sees less use if we're going with stuff that's more or less been around from the beginning, which is why I exempted it since its purpose is more "unique" than +1 Sp.

Really, what else what other accessory you cut for or merge with Neutral: All Elements? Everything else feels a more important "niche" aside from maybe Rubber Shoes or one of the mantles, but mantles just got redone and Rubber Shoes didn't get redone too long ago either. I'm curious.

As for Masamune being the one provider of Haste, yeah, it sort of is. Outright obviating one of the few things (multi-target Haste) that Time Mage could still do well--hence why everyone's agreeing they need to be a buff--is rather a clue. This is further compounded by it still happening at 100%...with Regen. It's not necessarily an "OP" problem though and Time Mage is getting boosted anyway, but yeah, that's kind of why I'm asking.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 11, 2012, 05:14:25 am
You want useless accessories? Genji Gauntlet/Power Wrist.

As far as the placement of RSM goes, it's more to fit the theme of the class rather than use. For Move-1, nobody could really decide who would use it, so we just shoved it onto a class that almost everyone unlocks lol.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 11, 2012, 06:08:28 am
And I'm asking how well does it sit with people having the Haste job is Draw Out and not Time Magic, not why. Or maybe it's JP cuts will allow Time Magic to shine again with Slow 2/Stop and make being the Haste King unnecessary? Who would have thought a skillset that had flippin' Lifebreak in it would be so rarely used?

I've been tempted to use Genji Gauntlet/Power Wrist several times before, but the evade they offer is just too low to use over +2 PA/MA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 11, 2012, 07:37:01 am
The Damned, you should see the post I'm actually replying to and stop assuming I'm always replying to you.  I was replying to the post right above me (Dokurider's), which is clear since his post outright says "this is probably random and kind of dumb" to which I reply "That is random and kind of dumb."  www.

I think Defend is fine as a 0 JP AI manipulation option.  It just needs to be on a class that benefits from CT / AI manipulation naturally and not Squire.  It allows you to pace a unit's turns backwards to ensure it falls into the Speed tier you want instead of your Speed synch being messed up by a Move-Wait, which is good if it's in the right place and easy to grab.

Move-CT UP is a very convoluted method of essentially making a Speed +1 Movement skill.  If that's what you want to do, make a Speed +1 Movement skill.  It's simpler, to the point, and slightly better since it works with Jump and a couple other nice things that Move-CT UP wouldn't.  It also doesn't need to replace Move = 0 (a skill that is niche but actually useful) to do so as there are still quite a few "unclaimed" Movement as I recall.

Wish -> 100% Accuracy... a better option would be to increase the range to 3.  Right now Item's main thing is its consistency, which in Phoenix Down's case is a 100% revival.  Revive's main thing is that it hits a lot with a decent HP gibe without relying on Brave/Faith.  Raise's main thing is that it heals for a LOT of HP at high range.  Giving Wish 3 range would make it unique for non-Throw Item users as it'd be solid target-independent accuracy (similar to Revive) with acceptable range (similar to Throw Item - Phoenix Down), but it would be cheaper than Phoenix Down as a secondary and keeps your Support free as long as you can use other stuff in Basic Skill and don't need other specific items such as Ether or Hi-Potion.  This is a better option because it gives Wish unique strengths instead of just making it from a more expensive, inferior Phoenix Down into a more expensive, slightly less inferior Phoenix Down.

Salty Rage / Immune: Blind, yeah sure, but it should also be given to Genji Helmet.  The HP offered by Genji Helmet isn't something you can say is a boon over Salty Rage because all Helmets give HP of roughly the same amount.  The HP is a property of things that get equipped in that slot and is expected by default - it not giving HP would be seen as a direct flaw, whereas on Salty Rage we never expect it to give HP to begin with.  Salty Rage also has the bonus of working on any class instead of just armored ones, relevant for Berserk Stone Gunners (which do good damage when not shooting your own guys as FDC and I showed ages back), Ninjas, Squires, and Geomancers to name a few.  Just because you might generally gravitate toward Genji Helmet on an armored class (because this allows you an additional PA point among other things) doesn't mean Salty Rage is inferior simply because of scope - not only are there equipment combinations on Armor classes where Salty Rage is superior pending what you need your Berserker to have as traits, but there are all the cases where Genji Helmet is just off the table entirely as a viable option.  Scope is a thing too, remember.

Sasuke Knife is really bad (along with most Ninjato and several other weapon types as a whole) but it's probably going to have to wait until 1.40 I'm thinking.  It looks like this update already has enough important content to juggle.

Sprint Shoes... unused?  ...Wtf u smoken champ.  A lot of the (good) teams across Arena's history have made use of Sprint Shoes, especially as damage has gone from everything being a pea shooter over to being able to do actual relevant damage that doesn't make Y U SO DERP 100% win every matchup every time.  Genji Gauntlet and Power Wrist, as mentioned, are generally the most worthless.  They fill a very very very specific niche on setups that are most often not that great anyway, and if truly needed their properties could probably just be added to Mantles by juggling their existing passive effects a bit.  Kill those LONG before you even CONSIDER killing Sprint Shoes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 11, 2012, 02:40:14 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on November 11, 2012, 07:37:01 amMove-CT UP is a very convoluted method of essentially making a Speed +1 Movement skill.  If that's what you want to do, make a Speed +1 Movement skill.  It's simpler, to the point, and slightly better since it works with Jump and a couple other nice things that Move-CT UP wouldn't.


Move-CT UP's CT boost would work only if the unit moves and would not contribute to skills that use SP in their formula (like Jump as you mentioned).  Therefore, it has less potency than Speed +1.  Also, its CT boost is more effective for units with low SP, providing a mild buff to such units should they equip it.  (Actually, Move-CT UP favours the faster units.  Got my numbers mixed up!)  Finally, (and on a more personal note,) it falls in line with Move-HP UP and Move-MP UP as a movement skill that boosts one of the three GUI stats.

Then again, I'm not contributing to FFT Arena's code, so I can't expect anyone to implement Move-CT UP over Speed +1.  If it's as convoluted as you say, then forget it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 11, 2012, 05:17:02 pm
Speed +1 is also better for units with lower Speed though because of how higher Speed has a tapering effect...

Also, Speed +1 fits into the Move +1 / Jump +1 trio of skills that give a hard boost to stats on the far left of the stat window, get at me.  (If there's room there's no reason not to do both but Move-CT would definitely require a lot more effort for what's personally an overall less appealing skill.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 11, 2012, 05:22:53 pm
Yeah, I misinterpreted my inequality sign before posting that.  Speed +1 is better for faster slower (must be the hunger) units, indeed.  You got a point about fitting in with Move +1 and Jump +1.  I just feel that Speed +1 on a move ability is incredibly powerful.  I would assign it a JP cost of 500 at minimum.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 11, 2012, 07:00:18 pm
(Oh, right. I forgot ask: "What it's going to happen to Spin Fist vs. Houkouton? Do people still want Houkouton's MP to be reduced to 0? Or...?"

Also, I reiterate that I think Bizen Boat needs to be M-EVadable. Speaking of that, Mage Masher in the Master Guide says it procs Silence instead of Bizen Boat for some reason despite the fact that it was accurate before 138d.)

Again, I didn't say that Speed Shoes were unused. I said they seem to be the least used. If people are fine with getting rid of Power Wrist and/or Genji Gauntlet to make way for the "Neutral: All Element, Block: Oil" accessory, then I'm more than fine with that even though I've personally used both and know other teams have. Something's got go or change accessory-wise though.

I also said I wasn't counting the mantles since they all just got changed to be actually worth using.

That said, replacing Power Wrist and/or Genji Gauntlet seems more complicated than Sprint Shoes since they had parity, which means if one goes, then the other has to. So if they both go, what becomes of the other's spot? Similarly, would this mean that Bracer and Magic Gauntlet "should" get some P-EV and M-EV respectively to "compensate"?

This is not say they shouldn't change over Sprint Shoes if that's what "everyone" really wants, but it's yet more to think about.

Quote from: FFMaster on November 11, 2012, 05:14:25 amAs far as the placement of RSM goes, it's more to fit the theme of the class rather than use. For Move-1, nobody could really decide who would use it, so we just shoved it onto a class that almost everyone unlocks lol.


That's understandable, especially since Paladin's never had a Movement and a lot of people do use it. Thing is, though, is that Move -1 literally seems the least useful to it of all classes, so it really seems like it should be on something else that doesn't have a Movement already like, say, Ninja or even Squire.

Quote from: Dokurider on November 11, 2012, 06:08:28 am
And I'm asking how well does it sit with people having the Haste job is Draw Out and not Time Magic, not why. Or maybe it's JP cuts will allow Time Magic to shine again with Slow 2/Stop and make being the Haste King unnecessary? Who would have thought a skillset that had flippin' Lifebreak in it would be so rarely used?


Probably the people who realized that the AI wouldn't use Balance as well as the Ultima Demon's use Lifebreak considering that a) Ultima Demons had a lot more HP, b) had better MA and c) couldn't heal themselves. The only reason Balance isn't busted is because the AI is control, same with Quickening. Considering Time Mage was already having problems before that....

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on November 11, 2012, 07:37:01 amThe Damned, you should see the post I'm actually replying to and stop assuming I'm always replying to you.  I was replying to the post right above me (Dokurider's), which is clear since his post outright says "this is probably random and kind of dumb" to which I reply "That is random and kind of dumb."  www.


I saw that. I only assumed you were also talking to me because I brought up Ignore Height in the first place, hence why I was also apologizing since I knew it was unimportant.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on November 11, 2012, 07:37:01 amI think Defend is fine as a 0 JP AI manipulation option.  It just needs to be on a class that benefits from CT / AI manipulation naturally and not Squire.  It allows you to pace a unit's turns backwards to ensure it falls into the Speed tier you want instead of your Speed synch being messed up by a Move-Wait, which is good if it's in the right place and easy to grab.


So what class then? Another physical one? A magickal one? Chemist?

It's obviously not better off on Bard & Dancer and pretty much most Scholars, so they're out. Paladin seems like it would make "sense" due to Nurse...but then they could just use Nurse and they have 0% C-EV besides, so that seems out. The other mages all have a bunch of range no their abilities, so they seem out.

So that basically leaves Mediator, Geomancer & Samurai on the MA side, Chemist and non-Paladin classes. Of those, who benefits the most from waiting for free? Thief seems out despite having the most CT simply because it has the most Speed, so being out of sync is good; same with Ninja really, especially since Kagesougi is quite usable and good and Ninja usually have Hidden Knife to get around physical evasion. Geomancer doesn't really care about CT stuff considering Geomancy is instant and varied.

So that leaves Chemist, Archer, Monk, Mediator, Lancer and Samurai. Of those, I'd actually think, ironically given my Monster Talk comparison from earlier, that Defend would best going to Mediator given Refute interrupts Charging & Performing. Solution might also seem use finally if the AI knows to use Innocent screw with Charging spellcasters (or target themselves). Not sure if anything can "save" Preach though.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on November 11, 2012, 07:37:01 amWish -> 100% Accuracy... a better option would be to increase the range to 3.


I'm more than fine with that actually. I was tempted to add into things, but I remember people talking about the accuracy as recently as before 138 due to the Poison changes. That and I couldn't decide whether 2 or 3 range would be less "controversial" even though 2 is obviously not much better.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on November 11, 2012, 07:37:01 amSalty Rage / Immune: Blind, yeah sure, but it should also be given to Genji Helmet.  *snip* Scope is a thing too, remember.


I suppose that would work. I just feel like Salty Rage needs "something" over Genji Helmet since at present it does nothing after the Initial: Berserk is gone, even it does have wider use by virtue of being accessory. Perhaps them both getting Block: Blind would fix that perception, though I'm not entirely sold on that just yet.

Still, it's something, which is what Salty Rage desperately needs right now if it's only "real" use doesn't want to be hiding in the back with Stone Gun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 11, 2012, 07:30:45 pm
I'm pretty sure that Sprint Shoes sees more use than Feather Boots, Rubber Shoes, Defense Armlet, Jade Armlet, Power Wrist, and Genji Gauntlet. Quite possibly more use than Cursed Ring and Iron Boots, too. Sprint Shoes are good and are definitely used. Don't change it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 11, 2012, 09:32:39 pm
(Sigh. Again, I said I was discounting things that were recently changed since Sprint Shoes has been unchanged since ARENA began two years ago. Otherwise we'd be counting Defense Ring, Diamond Armlet, pretty much all the Mantles and probably a couple of other things as well.)

So, of those things you just listed, the only things would really apply are Power Wrist, Genji Gauntlet, Iron Boots (of late at least) and maybe Feather Boots & Rubber Shoes--I forget when the last two were changed.

Regardless, since FFMaster himself offered up Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet, Sprint Shoes is safe. So can we please think about what the other new accessory is rather than keep misquoting me about saying something is useless or unused or the least used of all accessories ever when I said nothing of the sort? Especially when it would just suffice to say that Sprint Shoes should remain unchanged for [insert other reason here]?

Thanks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 11, 2012, 10:50:25 pm
If the gauntlets are going gone and we're in the works of making one replacement then how about something I mentioned earlier?

Accessory

Medicinal Pouch
Special: Lowers the CT of negative status by 33%


I'm not really beholden to the 33%.  I suck at balance.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on November 11, 2012, 11:01:46 pm
Since we're on the topic of accessories, how about accessories that increase HP/MP? I don't know if it's possible, but it might be something "new". As of the moment, Genji Gauntlet/Power Wrist are pretty useless, maybe adding a slight HP/MP (10-20?) boost would make them more appealing.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 12, 2012, 04:53:04 am
(I apologize if that last post came off harsher than I meant it to. Life sucks more than usual right now, but that's no reason to take it out on you guys [and gals].)

I'm not sure how feasible doing stuff like adding HP & MP or fullblown supports to items are, but looking at the state of ALMA, I'd hazard guess and say that, at present, it isn't terribly feasible. That said, since I still know next to nothing about coding, I'll let someone who is actually competent speak on those matters ultimately.

(As an "ironic" aside: A Chemist's Bag was something I'd long considered making an accessory in Embargo, though given the aforementioned ALMA issues, that's kinda been nixed presently, at least it originally was. Chemist dying didn't help matters, but that wasn't what changed it.)

Anyway, if it's rather likely that Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet are likely to be replaced now, then I propose two things:

1. That Bracer and Magic Gauntlet receive a bit of P-EV and M-EV respectively. No more than 10%, though 5% is probably safer (for ARENA).

2. That the two items that replace the other Gloves/Gauntlets/Armguards have +1 PA, including the Neutral: All Elements & Block: Oil one. Considering that most of the classes that can already use shields are PA-based and that two +1 MA accessories would still exist in the form of Reflect Ring and Magic Ring....


Yeah.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on November 12, 2012, 08:18:17 pm
Raven, Whats your opinion on Speed +1 as a time mage support ability instead of a movement abiliity? assuming a cost of around 450
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 13, 2012, 06:08:18 am
Defend on Mediators for 0 JP might work, they are a good class for it.  Others include Chemist, Priest, and Time Mage.  You dismiss mages too early because one of the biggest ways to mess with a magic-reliant team is to mess up their Speed Synch, causing their revival to happen after the attacker's turn passes.  You can see that happen a lot with Haste-based teams, which is probably the other reason you probably don't see magic Hasters a lot - Haste is strong in the right hands but ruins your Speed Synch, so from a mage's perspective adding Slow onto an enemy is probably better if their Secondary is supportive.

reinoe, TrueLight, both of those things can't be added to Accessories without some serious ASM hacking.  And in the case of HP/MP accessories, there's just no need as you already have two equipment slots for HP/MP and two equipment slots for evasion and/or option effects.  (Head/Body and Shield/Accessory, respectively.)  It's a piece of stylistic division that Shields and Accessories bestow evasion instead of HP to increase survival, and having it possible for either to do both just lessens the quality of evasion assuming you give them enough HP or MP to actually make someone care.

The Damned, Bracer/Magic Gauntlet don't need evasion.  Just because you take something away (+Power w/ evasion) doesn't mean you need to give it back somewhere else.  Something can die and just stay dead, which is really what these gloves need to do.  Bracer and Magic Gauntlet are already premiere items.  As for the new items giving +1 PA, I'm not against it but I definitely won't say it's necessary.  Making MA easier to boost isn't a problem because the R/S/M that boost Magic v those that boost Physical is a lot more limiting.

Malroth, I don't see any point in making it a Support ability.  A large number of top-tier Supports exist and you're just adding more noise into an area that already has a lot of competition as to which one you choose - even the "bad" ones are situationally worth using.  Movements even with War Path and Holy March added don't compare in volume for semi-utility Movements, so a Speed +1 should definitely go there.  Movements are far more in need of viable, flavorful options and Speed +1 is right at home.  I'm also going to go on the record on saying you guys are overestimating the power of a Speed +1 Movement because the AI tends to get really retarded when units move too quickly and one of its best uses outside of a kamikaze (where the JP will be mostly irrelevant anyway) will be to help your team's Speed Synch.  In that regard I'd say it should cost no more than 400 JP, similar to Move +1.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 13, 2012, 06:49:57 pm
(Ugh. Another wasted day.)

With regards to a Speed +1:: Yeah, I actually don't have a problem with Speed +1 being a Movement as long as it isn't cheaper than Move +1. It's a more a problem of determining who gets it, really. I guess Ninja could since they still don't have Movement and it would help them better parallel Thief, which is automatically faster than Ninja. Then again, Ninja already has a bunch of perks....

With regards to Defend as a Support: I suppose I didn't take the speed sync thing into mind, though I'm still kinda wary about Time Mage getting Defend. With everything that we're already agreeing to give it--including possibility this Speed +1--and despite your point about Haste, especially with Dispel Magic finally seeing some use, I would like Time Mage to be able to use the Haste spells at least. And from my memory, even as obnoxious as the AI priority on Haste can be, IIRC Defend trumps even that. So, while indeed a Time Mage with Defend could just not use Haste or a Time Mage with Haste could just not use Defend, I'd rather Defend be a class could use it without having to "decide". So I'd still say Time Mage is out personally.

Of the other three, I feel that Chemist and Priest are already strong enough, Mediator seems best for me. Not that Defend has to go there though.


With regards to Gauntlets: I suppose. It was more an ideal thought than "this needs to be replaced".

With regards to R/S/Ms boosting Physical more than Magic: I'm not really seeing this if we're talking just numbers, even though I acknowledge Martial Arts' existence and that Counter tends to backfire a hell of a lot less than Counter Magic does. As such, I'm guessing you just mean that physical units tend to be able to use their RSMs to boost their attacks, where as magickal ones--that aren't just whoring Spellguns--generally have to decide between boosting attack or restoring MP (or one of other utility RSMs like Float). If so, then I could see that.

At this point however, as with Defend, I think I'd rather like for the Neutral: All Element, Block: Oil accessory to have PA +1. The other accessory doesn't have to have PA +1, but I'm just not even sure what to begin think about what it "should" be; the same goes for what "we" are supposed to be replacing Crystal Shield with.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 14, 2012, 10:37:34 am
Speed +1, Ninjas, yeah sure whatever.

The best option for a 0 JP Defend is honestly Chemist.  There is no Support they'd glaringly like to have unlike with mages, Item makes a good secondary on mages if you buy into Chemist and Defend will come as a free option, etc.  Mediators often also run Item as a secondary anyway or vice-verse, so giving Chemist a 0 JP Defend helps everyone while being as unrestrictive as possible.  "Piggybacking" Defend onto a utility class like Chemist also makes it more usable because when you unlock a skillset for Defend, you'll stay for the skillset.  Putting Defend on a class like Mediator not everyone will use gives Mediator a nice option, but they'll likely get it anyway from opening Chemist as I mentioned and everyone else will have a harder time using it.  Putting "weak" things on strong classes is a good way to get people to experiment with them more readily and Chemist has no real good Supports anyway, so it works well.  (Throw Item, while "good", is also very niche.  Defend is too sortof, but the niche is completely different and a bit more generally applicable.  Chemist also doesn't get Haste so there's no worry about status priority.)

RSMs, magic (the primary use of MA) is only boosted by MATKUP and sometimes Elem Boost.  Physical can be boosted by ATKUP, MARTS, Two Hands, Two Swords, and sometimes Elem Boost.  Two Hands and Two Swords can sometimes boost MA*WP weapons but those weapons usually have slightly lower WP than PA contemporaries, much less common, and unlike when boosting PA via them, using them to boost MA weapons can sometimes end up conflicting since it does nothing for your skillset, which is often not geared for use by an in-your-face melee'er.  Either way, giving that Accessory PA +1 would be fine since the majority of users would be PA based anyway, but there's definitely inequality among PA/MA that will always exist even if Arena removed a lot of it, and that bit of inequality is what creates more in-depth strategy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 14, 2012, 07:02:40 pm
(Ugh. I idiotically, of course, forgot about Two Hands and Two Swords on the PA side for some reason, perhaps because the majority of their use at present is just through innates.)

I guess that Chemist can get Defend since, yeah, Chemist doesn't have an "active" support to use as a Primary. I say this despite thinking that a lot of people still underrate Maintenance even if it can "backfire" with regards to the AI's targeting.

That said, I'd still rather Mediator get some if possible. So perhaps give them Speed +1 instead of Ninja? I keep forgetting that they have 9 Speed in ARENA since I'm used to them being the "fastest" only in my patch really, but since they do and Ninja already has Hidden Knife to abuse for Speed still....

As for the accessories, yeah, it's not like I'm trying to create a world where "everything is equal" since as I admitted early, that can never exist in any capacity ever without making everything the same and banal. That said, I'm just trying to think I feel like should be at least a minor replacement of Power Wrist. So if "we" are fine with Crystal-Shield-as-accessory getting PA +1 as well in addition to Neutrality and Block: Oil, then that's done.

Of course, that still leaves the question of what to do with Crystal Shield's current spot and the other accessory spot if Genji Gauntlet is dying as well. I'm currently stumped on both those fronts, partly because I'm still not sure about some of the statuses going into 139. (Are "we" changing Oil to block Reactions? Are Reraise and Death Sentence going to cancel each other like I think we discussed earlier? Etcerta.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 15, 2012, 04:15:23 am
Quick note for Master Guide (dunno if Damned covered it or not): Male Geomancers have 10 PA/8 MA, female Geomancers have 8 PA/10 MA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 15, 2012, 05:41:31 am
(Nope. I just covered the Move and Jump discrepancies because those were the most easily noticed.)

Anyway, while I literally just thought of something while typing up my "advice" to feeldawrath after noticing that AI still might not be using Nameless Song:


If "we" are probably keeping the Defend support around for at least another iteration on Raven's advice, then can "we" also try having Nameless Song add Defending?


Hear me out. "We" didn't want Nameless Song adding Hasting because it both ate up the AI's priority and would obviate pretty much all other forms of Haste (at least before Masamune existed) on top of being usable from anywhere on the map. While Defending has the same "problem" of making AI focus on it as a priority, hence the potential addition, it doesn't exactly out compete anything...save maybe the already unused Defend. Even that, however, would still have use as keeping the speed sync as Raven argues.

It seems it would definitely get the AI to use it for once and, unlike Haste, Defending only lasts until the AI moves. It would also allow for a use of Defending that would can actually be used to make a unit not have to use its Act to have Defend (exempting Mimes mimicking Nurse of course). That might be somewhat busted between Nameless Song having Reraise and Defending still stacking with Blind when it comes to evasion. However, Reraise can always leave and either get replaced by Float or nothing and Defending's evasion boost can (and should) probably be nerfed like Abandon's was. Similarly, Blind arguably still needs a bit of a buff since it doesn't disable Concentrate as was "promised" when we spoke of bringing it back for 138. [/not bitter] [/suspiciously specific denial]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 17, 2012, 04:31:39 am
(So apparently Nameless Song will get used, but only if the Bard would otherwise be using Life Song, which apparently Nameless Song takes priority over due to Reraise.

...Good to know.)

Anyway, I hate to double post, but among other things, Dokurider's kicking my ass allowed me to realize something...weird seems to be going on with Ninjutsu. (Also, Repel Knife, but I'm not going to get in to that now.)

In the Master Guide, it says that Fuuton and its ilk are subject to M-EV only, yet when my Ninja went to heal my Archers, he got "guarded"...despite the fact neither of them have M-EV of any kind. I only realized this after the fact, probably because even if those had hit, it's unlikely that I would have won that fight.

Is this perhaps an intentional consequence of the "fix" to Projectile Guard (if was the Archer with Projectile Guard)? Or something else?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 17, 2012, 09:07:55 pm
-ton skills have been getting blocked by P-EV since the beginning of 1.38.  I mentioned it a long time ago, but my post was either overlooked or the fix is not straightforward.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 18, 2012, 02:24:54 am
(Yeah...I don't remember seeing that post, but then I think my memory is horrible, so....)

Hmmm, well the Master Guide also needs to change on that account then. I'll see if I can "go through it" on Thanksgiving since I'm not going to be doing anything on that day and make a list of everything that's wrong with it.

Other than that, I'm actually fine with that change considering how the -ton Ninjutsu initially were, even if that actually screws up my plans a bit. Hmmm....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on November 20, 2012, 03:33:04 pm
Immune Poison to  Light robe and P bag
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 20, 2012, 05:05:39 pm
Why?  Poison is the only counter to those items outside of raw DPS.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on November 21, 2012, 01:37:36 pm
Well I mostly suggested this because Poison persists after death, so anyone running always regen could use pheonix down/wish as a rez without instantly dying as soon as they get a turn
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 21, 2012, 02:01:12 pm
There is a video I uploaded somewhere that kind of backs up Malroth's argument. I remember when TrueLight's Time Mage kept dying over and over due to poison which gave feeldawrath's team a 2nd round victory especially since his team compared to TrueLight's at the time had a lot more synergy problems between the two
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on November 21, 2012, 03:37:38 pm
So someone won a game because they used Poison against a team with nothing but low-tier revival and was able to keep up pressure.

Poison's doing exactly what it was buffed to do so I'm not sure what the issue is really.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 22, 2012, 02:11:54 am
(So...anyone have any ideas about Crystal Shield's replacement or what the second new Accessory should be? Because I still have nothing.)

I concur with Raven even though I'm still somewhat wary of Poison continuing past death. Much of that is it screwing over the already horrible Wish however, so if that's definitely getting fixed next version then I'm more than fine with Poison staying it as that. This especially when Poison is already getting screwed over completely by Masamune being everywhere. There's no way in hell that Poison needs to get nerfed if Masamune stays as it is, though Masamune probably needs to be weakened as it is, so....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 22, 2012, 03:05:32 am
Well, if turning Crystal Shield into a accessory is confirmed, then what if we had a Kaiser Plate-esqe shield that boosted Wind, Water, and Earth?

As for an accessory, what if we had one that blocked both Charm and Blind? As a maker of hyped up Melee units, I find myself having to choose between blind and charm protection. I'd be nice if I could block both.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 22, 2012, 03:06:32 am
Maybe keep the poison after death but perhaps lower the number of ticks just by a little bit. of course do the same to regen. otherwise its really up to you
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 22, 2012, 03:07:50 am
Quote from: Dokurider on November 22, 2012, 03:05:32 am
Well, if turning Crystal Shield into a accessory is confirmed, then what if we had a Kaiser Plate-esqe shield that boosted Wind, Water, and Earth?

As for an accessory, what if we had one that blocked both Charm and Blind? As a maker of hyped up Melee units, I find myself having to choose between blind and charm protection. I'd be nice if I could block both.


you could always run with either diamond armor and n-kai armlet or crystal mail and angel ring but I know what you're saying. you would rather have 1 accessory that blocks both of those statuses
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 22, 2012, 05:17:40 am
I'm actually fine with Poison lasting past death.  In fact I built a team using only low level raise and built in Immunity to such things.  Poison is so easily negated that it had to get some sort of buff.  In fact negating poison is more pervasive than negating Regen.  It needs to last beyond death otherwise it's unplayable.


I wish frog lasted beyond death, but that's unlikely to get switched back.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on November 23, 2012, 09:00:11 pm
I move to have TIGER's middle wall edited/removed. With it currently how it is, it takes forever for melee units to get into adequate range and gives ranged units a very heavy advantage. Further, it seems like battles themselves take longer to get going in that map.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on November 23, 2012, 09:08:55 pm
It also doesn't help that Player 2 starts at a height advantage
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on November 24, 2012, 02:06:58 am
Quote from: Eternal on November 23, 2012, 09:00:11 pm
Further, it seems like battles themselves take longer to get going in that map.


That wall is the only thing that gives elemental spam or Song/Dance teams any ghost of a chance on the map.  Also Teleport/Fly.  But I do think that the height should be balanced out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 24, 2012, 09:03:49 am
(...Well, that online essay turned out to be long....)

Before I go for a walk, I figure I'll talk about the two or three things I've been thinking of ...One of which I've now forgotten after slogging through another 20,000 words. Ugh..., if only this was the work I was supposed to be doing.

Let's see if I remember what the hell it was...:


1. Masamune: In thinking about it more and more, aside from Time Magic(k)'s current weakness, I think the reason that it still seems overpowered is because of Regen. If Masamune was just Linear 1 Haste at 100%, then it would still be powerful and worth use without being as (seemingly) obnoxious. Because, really, why does the one thing that guarantees Haste 100% on multiple units come with built-in healing, especially on a class that already has arguably the best healing? There really doesn't seem to be a reason for it, especially when more turns means more healing via Regen, which now lasts a really long time and past death.

So having Masamune become Linear 1 Haste at 100% seems like it would be for the best even if it still screws Yell since then at least Slow 2 would be at worst a zero sum game against Masamune rather than a steady, eventual loss because of Regen on top of things. Additionally, Masamune adding Regen seems even more egregious when P Bag, Light Robe and Regen the spell just got buffed and are all seeing relatively little use despite the first one being able to be equipped by anyone who isn't a Mime. So...yeah, can "we" try nixing the Regen aspect of Masamune so people have to actually pick between that or healing or paying more (ability-wise or equipment-wise [or reaction-wise]) for both? Or "we" could try making it so that it only targets the user with Haste & Regen...even though I think that's actually weaker than what I'm proposing and gets rid of what's strongest about Masamune: 100% multi-unit Haste.

(And in doing so, "we" make it so that Poison as a strategy is actually usable, the Regen equips and spell actually have more than novel worth, that the Slow spells don't fight an utterly losing game and so that Haste spells aren't still utterly curb-stomped by its MP-less competition. Again, not sure how to "save" Yell, but Squire's Basic Skill tends to be one of the more difficult sets to balance.)


2. Song vs. Dance: Oh, right. I forgot this because it just came up a few hours ago when watching Barren's lastest video of Reks vs. Ahong: Would it be wildly inappropriate to suggest Song/Sing being subject to Silence? I suppose Dance could be made subject as well if only to be "fair" since I currently feel like Song is a (lot) better than Dance, if only due to how unstoppable the buffs are should they get going and the AI being smarter about Songs in general. It both makes "sense" and is something the AI already tries to do anyway (despite the fact that it should know that Song, for some reason, has never been subject to Silence). While not nearly as important as the Masamune suggestion, I just figured I'd throw that out there before I forget.


3. 500+ JP: Speaking of which, while I'm not convinced that the JP limit should (ever) be lifted like some people are, I've been thinking about this as well lately: How about making it so that people no longer have to "pay" to open their Primary and Secondary classes? Right now, that would save every unit 500 JP and thus maybe be a bit much, which is why I'm not terribly "serious" about this. If it was adopted however, then there would be nothing stopping you from upping the cost of opening classes from 250 to...whatever.

Shrug.

Quote from: Dokurider on November 22, 2012, 03:05:32 am
Well, if turning Crystal Shield into a accessory is confirmed, then what if we had a Kaiser Plate-esqe shield that boosted Wind, Water, and Earth?


I'm really...lukewarm to that idea, more because of the fact that the weapons that boost Wind, Water and Earth still don't see that much use than it being an outright "bad" idea. It's just a sort of "meh" idea though, but, hell, it's better than what I've got presently.

The only other thing I could can think of would be a "Block: Blind" shield given Grand Cross, but I'm not sure how much that might upset the balance of things.

Quote from: Dokurider on November 22, 2012, 03:05:32 amAs for an accessory, what if we had one that blocked both Charm and Blind? As a maker of hyped up Melee units, I find myself having to choose between blind and charm protection. I'd be nice if I could block both.


This one I definitely can't get behind though. While there probably should be another accessory that Blocks: Charm and another one that Blocks: Blind, I don't think they should be on the same accessory. I say this especially considering that, outside of revival, "hyped up Melee units" still tend to be (quite) a bit better than "hyped up Mage units" overall. As with the above, though, I currently don't have an alternative.

Speaking of statuses that need more protection from things, I think the new accessory (or one of the previous, still weaker ones) needs to protect against Innocent (and Faith, not that anyone has used Muramasa in a while) considering that nothing does aside from an Armor. Even if it doesn't straight out disable Faith-based magick like it used to do in vanilla, it being only blocked by Armor currently (and soon, possibly, a Ribbon/Headband/Hair Adornment) has long stuck out to me.

...Of course, I say that still being unsure of what exactly "we" are planning to do with Headbands' availability for the next version, Equip [Whatever] and "Martial Arts! (Now with Limited Edition Headband!)" plans included in this uncertainty.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 06:37:42 pm
Power Wrist is not worthless.  Not everyone, Raven, believes in maximizing evasion to the point of having no power (or maximizing power without evasion).  I've ran at least a few units with ATKUP + power wrist and abandon (or 2S thieves/ninjas with platina daggers and power wrist just to get the right amount of PA for the (PA + SP)/2 stat while keeping evasion).  As a good dual purpose item, I think it should stay.  Now that M-EV is more important and we have MA * WP (unevadeable) off thief, I think genji gauntlet should stay too.

There is actually a good case for making Salty Rage permanently berserk now given that berserk units can react.  I'm thinking that salty rage + phoenix blade would then be viable on a high SPD thief since the biggest problem with phoenix blade users isn't merely that they are slow, but that reraise revives them in critical (in which they will waste turns healing or running rather than fighting).  There's no need to grant it a residual effect (such as null: blind) since the whole point of such a unit is early game dominance (with a possible late-game switchback if you run re-raise and an intelligent secondary), but I wouldn't really object either.

The rest of this post is addressed to The Damned.

Masasmune is NOT broken unless you have two units running it.  Since masamune only affects two people, if you depend on one masamune unit to haste 4 people, it will take 3 turns and by the time that happens (for the average team with units less than 10 SPD), at least one of your hasted units is dead/needs refreshing, so your unit is stuck on masamune duty indefinitely.  Now, if you want to run two units with masamune, you're free to do that, but you mess up your offensive variety at your own peril.
Slow spells fighting an utterly losing game?  Back when masamune was target AoE, I tested it against Slow2 and nameless dance.  Nameless and Slow2 teams beat my single masamune teams, winning on most maps except the small ones where you could always haste 4 units.  You needed 2 masamuners or haste2 to counter it.  If anything, the new masamune will fail utterly against slow because you'll eat up the masamune unit's AI priority into removing slow every single turn, with an even less likely chance to haste someone else (compared to before).

Dance > Song:
Witch Hunt > Angel Song (0 MP = incapacitation for a lot of units without Absorb MP or Move-MP Up with 150+ maxMP; Angel Song will not be used in a Move-MP UP kind of way, but only used to reload, meaning you'll still waste turns)
Wiznaibus > Life Song (A fully spec'd life song team can last only if you don't kill its mimes, but a non-fully spec'd life song team is pretty weak; a fully spec'd wiznaibus team can only be stopped by auto potion, speed save, or critical quick, but even a partially spec'd wiznaibus team can still snipe PD units or be used to accumulate damage for climhazzard procs)
Slow Dance > Cheer Song (Y U SO DERP proved the use of slow dance.  No one uses cheer song because once your SPD > 10, you will get a turn before Cheer Song finishes, giving the AI a chance to switch songs before finishing the cast.)
Polka Polka / Disillusion > Battle/Magic Song (Y U SO DERP beat a lot of teams that used these tactics.)
Nameless Dance > Nameless Song (Nameless Dance adds Slow.  Nameless Song cannot add haste for AI reasons.  Otherwise, Oil is effectively equal to Protect/Shell.  Running reflect pretty much blocks out using cure1/2/3 on your team, so only re-raise is solid (since very few people run undead).  Meanwhile, darkness and silence can incapacitate a large swath of units, much more so than reflect and reraise can counter.)
Last Song > Last Dance (Last Dance is only good if you use Jump.  Last Song is lethally applied as long as you have a team with 10+ SPD except for the singer.)

We do not need to create elemental neutralizers that also cancel oil (which was created to counter elemental halve/neutrality) because a game should minimize the number of anti-counters (like Yu-Gi-Oh's counter traps).  Such specializations become ever more niche and create an arms race for even bigger trump cards (which makes coding more and more complicated).

Damned, transparent ignores the evade of the defender, not the attacker.  That being said, blind overrides transparent (as it should).
Nerfing bloody strings is obvious as drain HP in FFT is actually equivalent to a weapon that averages to be around 1.5x its normal WP.
Poles honestly are fine as is.  The 2H poles are powerful (as Dol proved a while back with Sticks), but the only pole that is bland is the 14 WP one.
Ninjato are kind of flat by comparison because of how much we boosted swords (which weren't even weak before), but again, I see nothing really off with it unless you all want Sasuke Knife at +2 SP.
Honestly, Damned, innocent is fine the way it is.  It's really only reliably inflicted from one source, and usually used to charge up ninjitsu (because you can't reliably target mages with a stick).  Honestly, a mediator would rather use berserk (on the majority of the enemy squad) followed by kiyomori rather than innocent on possibly only half the enemy squad.  Mages are squishier in general, but start with high ninjitsu evasion (high faith), if not outright ninjitsu blocking (reflect).  They don't need anti-innocent.  Knights, who are supposed to tank, have more need to stop means of boosting damage.

Honestly, most of the anti-status gear are fine as is now that they are tied to elemental absorb/null.  If anything, the Defense Ring may be too strong for mages with 40 fury (in blocking most of the anti-mage status effects as well as nether water).  Can we swap it with the jade armlet (null ice)?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 01, 2012, 10:06:09 pm
(I might as well answer this before I go for a walk.)

Yay! A post addressed mostly to me! I now feel special!

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 06:37:42 pmMasasmune is NOT broken unless you have two units running it. *snip*


I never said it was "broken" IIRC. I've just been saying it's overpowered. Repeatedly.

As you know, broken is stuff that you can't beat without being extremely specialized, like when Hunting Bow was 100% Don't Move, or that just isn't working, like Shieldrender & Bowgun.

That said, if you replace "broken" with "overpowered" in that sentence, then is Masamune *really* any better? Should "we" just leave as it is?

It would be better to argue why it needs to add Regen at all present if we're going to talk about it unless people have other solutions, including leaving it is and why that should be.(This, of course, includes talking about why it should keep adding Regen.)

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 06:37:42 pmSlow spells fighting an utterly losing game?  Back when masamune was target AoE, I tested it against Slow2 and nameless dance.  Nameless and Slow2 teams beat my single masamune teams, winning on most maps except the small ones where you could always haste 4 units.  You needed 2 masamuners or haste2 to counter it.  If anything, the new masamune will fail utterly against slow because you'll eat up the masamune unit's AI priority into removing slow every single turn, with an even less likely chance to haste someone else (compared to before).


There are at least four issues with this paragraph alone between its seeming assumptions and ambiguities:


1. Are we talking about a team that has both Slow 2 AND Nameless Dance? Just teams that have two users of each or both only at the maximum? Both?

2. Did the targets of Slow 2 in question have high Faith or low Faith?

3. I'm not sure why you're talking like having two Masamune users isn't that common, especially when Draw Out is still one of the better skill-sets "variety-wise".

4. You also seem to be arguing like Slow 2 is a) guaranteed to hit everyone it targets, b) guaranteed to be used against more than one unit all the time despite almost all units who have it only having it and not Slow and c) will be on a unit that always has the MP necessary versus a skillset that doesn't use MP for Masamune and that has the MP-damaging, unavoidable Bizen Boat.


You must excuse me if I remain skeptical.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 06:37:42 pmDance > Song: *snip*


This is obviously arguable. Also, for the record, I'm not sure if you're talking about how Y U SO DERP performed before Dancer's accuracy got slight nerfs or after as well, especially since I wasn't around for when Dancer's chances were lowered months ago:

1. Witch Hunt only trumps Angel Song if the MP goes below 5 before Angel Song can go off since otherwise Angel Song tends to restore more. Additionally, the Dancer will almost always run out of MP for one reason or another whereas Angel Song loops into self infinitely. Bards tend to use Move-MP Up far more often than Dancers use it, even if Dancers admittedly use Punch Art (and thus Chakra) at lot more than Bards. Still, Chakra takes an Act(ion), which means the Dancer isn't Dancing Witch Hunt (or any other Dance), while a Bard doesn't have to stop Singing even if they hit 0 somehow if they have Move-MP Up since they recover at least 6 MP even with no MP providing equipment.

2. Yeah, Wiznaibus has an edge over Life Song...even if it can and does tend to horrifically backfire with some regularity against anything that isn't a form of Counter, Awareness, Abandon, Projectile Guard or Distribute. This occurs even with Mimes, who can make the backfiring even worse and with not being as potent any more with the increase in CT. So while it's still arguably better, it's definitely riskier than full-map healing that now comes with potential Regen.

3. Yeah, Cheer Song has the potential to backfire, which is why I initially wasn't using it, and Last Song tends to be better. Good thing I never said that Slow Dance was inferior to Cheer Song.

4. Thing is, even though Polka Polka and Disillusion DO have merit, they have two issues that Battle Song and Magic Song don't suffer from even before taking into account the Songs having (much) higher accuracy now. The Songs can be built around from the get-go while with the Dances you generally have either use one unit with Polka and one with Disillusion to be sure you'll affect an enemy. Even then, there's a decent chance that one of those Dances will just be a waste of time depending on the team. For this reason, the Songs tended to beat the Dances even before the Songs became more accurate and the Dances became less so just because the Songs were much easier to benefit from, plan around and, additionally, to Mime. The Dances, meanwhile, if not used in tandem by two different units, generally have to be on the same team with a Protect (2) or Shell (2) user for Disillusion or Polka Polka respectively to singularly really worth it. So...yeah. They're worth using because, again, I never said Dance was worthless, but the Songs are still clearly better to me overall even if certain teams can make great use of the Dances.

5. Again, never said Nameless Dance was worse than Nameless Song. Hell, quite the opposite considering I supported Raven vouching for Nameless Dance when Malroth said that Nameless Dance still needed improvement about a month ago. Meanwhile, I even more recently expressed exasperation that Nameless Song seems to still only be on the same level of priority as Life Song and other healing, which makes it a lot more difficult to use than Life Song considering the longer CT.


For the record, all your argument does is convince me that Dance should also be affected by Silence at this point alongside Song/Sing, which I'm fine with.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 06:37:42 pmWe do not need to create elemental neutralizers that also cancel oil (which was created to counter elemental halve/neutrality) because a game should minimize the number of anti-counters (like Yu-Gi-Oh's counter traps).  Such specializations become ever more niche and create an arms race for even bigger trump cards (which makes coding more and more complicated).


Perhaps.

The problem with Oil at present, though, is that it never wears off unless you either die or have Holy Water or almost miraculously survive the ensuing elemental hit. When combined with the fact that it's x2 damage weakness to six elements and that FFMaster's variation of your hack makes it so that it weakness carries over to basic weapon attacks...yeah. Something has to give.

If that something is element weakness being reduced to 1.5x damage, then I'd be fine with Power Wrist and Magic Gauntlet staying around since I've used too. That would make the elemental shields more readily usable as well with having to worry about instant murder if you don't guard your loins weakness. At present though, I can't really think of anything else that would work besides an accessory with that "niche" and that accessory is probably less controversial than the above proposal change to weakness.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 06:37:42 pm[Insert Transparent, Bloody Strings, Poles & Iron Fan, Ninjato & Sasuke Knife and Innocent stuff here.]


I already answered about Transparent in the Video thread, so I'll just say that I agree about Bloody Strings and Poles & Iron Fan, though in the case of Iron Fan, it's not like bland is necessarily "bad"--not that you were saying that (I think). Similarly, all I'll say about Sasuke Knife is that +2 SP won't really improve it, at least not for Ninja who can just use two Hidden Knife and get the same effect plus pseudo-Concentrate.

Also, I'm fine with Innocent now that I realize it doesn't utterly neuter Faith-based magick anymore. I still think that it and Faith could maybe blocked by an Accessory though. (Not really sure you're talking about with the rest of the stuff in that Innocent paragraph.)

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 06:37:42 pmHonestly, most of the anti-status gear are fine as is now that they are tied to elemental absorb/null.  If anything, the Defense Ring may be too strong for mages with 40 fury (in blocking most of the anti-mage status effects as well as nether water).  Can we swap it with the jade armlet (null ice)?


What is this "it" "we" would be swapping? Or rather, what part of "it" are "we" swapping?

P.S. I'll think about your Salty Rage thing now that Item Attributes might be freed up, but Phoenix Blade *really* doesn't need any buffs.

P.P.S. Now that this is all answered, I feel empty again. Hurray!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Quote
It would be better to argue why it needs to add Regen at all present if we're going to talk about it unless people have other solutions, including leaving it is and why that should be.(This, of course, includes talking about why it should keep adding Regen.)


Masamune without regen < Haste (which is nearly impossible to midcharge and MP deprivation is a non-issue outside of long battles without MP regeneration or active MP destruction, so the MP and CT costs are effectively trivial).  To keep it competitive with haste and to keep the game varied, +Regen is the right course of action.  This is also why Wish getting 3 range to match PD is a good idea.

Quote
Are we talking about a team that has both Slow 2 AND Nameless Dance

No, just ONE user of Nameless Dance on one team and ONE user of Slow2 on the other.

Quote
Did the targets of Slow 2 in question have high Faith or low Faith?

I tested it against both and honestly, if 4 people were marked by the spell, at least two were usually affected at the lowest Faith bracket.

Quote
3. I'm not sure why you're talking like having two Masamune users isn't that common, especially when Draw Out is still one of the better skill-sets "variety-wise".

Uses of Masamune:
1. On a Draw OUt user
a. Not a physical damage unit (probably some generic mage)
b. Kind of is a physical damage unit (probably a bard with a harp and overwhelm)
c. Is a physical damage unit (probably female samurai with sticks)
2. On a stall unit
3. On a physical striker

The only case where 2x masamune is maximized is 1c where you have both powerful chiri damage, haste, and physical strikes.  Here, you can strike against M and P-EV.
As Barren proved, 1b is also pretty strong but if you want your magic damage to match max power chiri, you need to pump all your effort into boosting MA and elemental boost, meaning you probably won't have a damaging weapon like a harp.  If you do attempt to mimic 1c with a blood harp and some draw outs on the side, you'll likely get competitive inhibition between overwhelm + blood harp and murasame + overwhelm.
1a is tidally locked into a defense that M-EV can block.

In other words, only 1c is something that's not easily blocked by just M-EV.  Thus, it's pretty stupid to double up on model 1b/1a in a squad because it will be easy to counter, either elementally or by evasion.  And honestly, if we're talking about those samurais, masamune is the least of your worries.

Usually, stall units will run kiyomori with masamune and murasame/bizen boat.  Having two units with kiyomori is usually overkill because half of your entire party is nearly worthless on the offense while poison/blinding the enemy twice as fast isn't really a virtue if your stall team is sturdy enough (since you only need one unit that the enemy cannot kill slowly spreading poison).  Thus, unless you want an offense like Wiz's S6 team, you probably want only one stall unit with kiyomori, and thus, only one with draw out.

A physical unit doesn't have the MA reserves to use any of the other draw outs.  It may be possible that they may not even have the MA to be able to bizen boat someone effectively.  They are wasting their secondary slot by learning masamune when a time mage secondary can cover haste with spell interruption, % of HP darkness damage, constant damage, and slow, all of things prioritized by the AI if your physical attacker hasn't the range to compete with spells.  (Of course, some people may not want 70 faith, so masamune has its place, but your argument of being completely stronger than time mage is easily disproved.)  The only partial exception to this is when you are running a unit that starts with 11/12+ speed and no MP reserves, but even then, one has an equal case for item (not to mention snipe, talk skill, steal, or a more damaging secondary).

In other words, Damned, although double masamune exists, double draw out is hardly the a do or die strategy in the new metagame partly because the prevalence of more M-EV and because masamune is a poor substitute for time magic on most non-MA spec'd teams.  Furthermore, the above strategies are pretty close to mutually incompatible: a stall unit doesn't function well unless the entire team is built around stalling so a stall draw out user + a 1c samurai probably won't exist on the same team, a fast physical unit with masamune alongside a 1c female risks squad separation on large maps as well as the inability to boost them both with songs, etc.  Pretty much, the only teams where I think double draw out is effective are those that use 1c/1b, which have a lot more things "overpowered" about them than masamune.

Quote
a) guaranteed to hit everyone it targets
b) guaranteed to be used against more than one unit all the time despite almost all units who have it only having it and not Slow
c) will be on a unit that always has the MP necessary versus a skillset that doesn't use MP for Masamune and that has the MP-damaging, unavoidable Bizen Boat.

Already answered a) above.
b) is usually true on all but the largest maps because the AI will use slow2 to preferentially remove haste.  Usually, that is the masamune user, who's next to his comrades that he just boosted.  Even on larger maps, the large AoE usually ensnares the enemy because most teams are built to have units fight together (rather than split up from each other).  Squads that don't will have an edge against a slow2 squad, of course, but fail against general opposition.
As for nameless dance, slow is much less likely to land, but when you consider that blind, silence, and oil are the other options, I think I really don't care what lands, as long as something does.
c) This is simply a question of team management.  Your Slow2 user needs a means of MP Restoration (but this is fundamental since any team that has important spells needs MP healing, preferably on the units that use MP).  You want your Slow2 user to move after all the hasted enemy units so slow2 will land.  Since bizen boat is most often used to interrupt charges, the chances your slow2 user was preemptively hit isn't very high (unless you have a ton of other mages charging or a ton of other MP users or units so sturdy that the draw out user may as well use bizen boat).  Given these conditions don't occur, your Slow2 will land on a hasted unit with masamune.  The best part is that since his CT meter is only at around 20-50, he'll be slowed for much too long before he can get another turn, (which he'll waste on masamune to hit at most one other person) giving your other units plenty of time to destroy him or the people around him that you also slowed.  Damned, you overlooked THIS as why Slow2 is strong against masamune; it can give your entire team a free turn to beat up on them.

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I'm not sure if you're talking about how Y U SO DERP performed before Dancer's accuracy got slight nerfs or after as well, especially since I wasn't around for when Dancer's chances were lowered months ago:


After, obviously.  Y U SO DERP continued to dominate until Absorb Used MP became Auto-Ether, reactions were changed away from simply fury% activation, and blaze gun's WP was boosted to 17 to allow 441 damage.  Incidentally, Absorb Used MP change was the biggest killer because it made witch hunt vulnerable the way wiznaibus was.  This in itself should give credence to why witch hunt > angel song; pretty much, unless you run an all physical squad or openly try to block it and then build your team around it, you will suffer at least one incapacitation on your squad.
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Bards tend to use Move-MP Up far more often than Dancers use it

Looping indefinitely isn't a strength because dancers don't need to use witch hunt indefinitely.  After the enemy has been incapacitated or enters the strike range of the dancer's secondary, you can do other things.  Even if you don't completely take out someone's MP on a small map, the pressure of fighting at half MP can easily stop the enemy if you can take hits.

Otherwise, your objections are mostly sound.  Honestly, silence blocking both song and dance is only fair, but I know Eternal will resist anything resembling turning silence into addle.

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it never wears off unless you either die or have Holy Water or almost miraculously survive the ensuing elemental hit. When combined with the fact that it's x2 damage weakness to six elements and that FFMaster's variation of your hack makes it so that it weakness carries over to basic weapon attacks...

Oil comes from
Short Edge (25%)
Hawkeye (100%)
Geomancy, Summon, and Black Magic (20%)

Honestly, if the latter hits you, that's just the fault of the map or bad luck, nothing more.
Hawkeye is usually substandard damage except on teams that boost their speed, meaning the enemy suspends their heavy damage for a turn (to pummel you next turn if they can manage their CT synchronization) or they aren't fighting at full power to begin with (which would be an archer's kagesougi off a bow).  Short Edge requires ninjas (which aren't very strong offensively) or thieves (which are even worse).  The lethal chain damage is 50% oil + elemental weapon, but honestly, this is no different than climhazzard at 50%.  If you get the 50%, you have a lucky KO.  If you don't, you've dealt far less damage than a better built attacker would have.

Of course, if the initial strike isn't chained, you can have oil persist on your units, disrupting your carefully built elemental defenses, but honestly, how is this any different than silence or blind (both of which persist until death)?  AT least, such oiled units will function as distractions since they will be KO'd in fairly short order (and if you do survive, at least oil goes away).  The process is slower on a blinded or silenced unit but is really no less painful.  If you have the time to heal, tanks can sometimes survive an oiled shot (while armor for knights and accessories for regular units can both block it).  All oil does now is force people to rely less on white robes and thief hats, which dominated the last season.

Sasuke blade users are mostly thieves, often with EQ Armor, as Wiz used.  In their case, +2 SP is a good way to counterbalance the hidden knife and two swords.  Furthermore, if I want two ninjas with +2 SP from weapons, I wouldn't be able to use 4 hidden knives.
As for my defense ring proposal, I'm saying that defense ring should null ice (because absorb water is now too strong) while jade armlet should absorb water.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on December 02, 2012, 04:19:07 pm
...I'd be perfectly fine with Silence becoming Addle.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 02, 2012, 05:33:03 pm
(Before I forget while typing up this massive reply: FFMaster, is Charging "supposed" to be nullifying M-EV now as well?)

...I see....

*takes off gloves*

Well, at least Raven can't blame me solely for the long length of this reply. Spoiler abuse, hoooooooooooo!


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pmMasamune without regen < Haste (which is nearly impossible to midcharge and MP deprivation is a non-issue outside of long battles without MP regeneration or active MP destruction, so the MP and CT costs are effectively trivial).  To keep it competitive with haste and to keep the game varied, +Regen is the right course of action.


I think you're discounting the key advantage that Masamune has over the Haste spells, even if Masamune only added Haste and not Haste & Regen: Masamune is guaranteed to hit. Being 100% counts for a lot. Hell, being 100% still sees Yell getting some use even though by both our standards it's still overall inferior to Masamune and Haste & Haste 2.

To be honest, the 100% aspect is what really bothers me about Masamune. I'd probably be more or less fine with it adding Haste & Regen if just weren't so damn..."braindead" I guess is the closest word to describe it. If it went by MA+X% or something where you were actually "punished" for having lower MA, even as little as that a difference of a few stat points tend to mean on status spells, especially ones that aren't avoidable, then I'd feel at least a bit better about it really. Especially since, as you point out, it would quickly become detrimental to run two of it "just because" even without having to go up against Slow 2 or Nameless Dance or both.

Additionally, Regen lasting past death now and for quite a while along doesn't "help". Neither does Masamune being actually instant instead of pseudo-instant like Haste; this important to note because of how common Speed ties are and, "ironically", because of Time Mage's proposed 139 improvements, lowering its Speed to 8 will mean that it will speed tie a lot more.

You have a point about MP though since most units worth their salt that have Haste or Haste 2 in the first place have some method of recovering (a lot) of MP relatively easily. It could still be an issue if the unit that was otherwise hasting had to do manually restore MP themselves however. Still, that's more with Haste 2 than Haste since you only need have to at least 120 MP to be able to cast infinite Hastes via Move-MP Up.

That said, given you basically admitted last post that Masamune is at least a tad overpowered if you double up on it, you never answered the question I asked: If you feel that way, then are you fine with Masamune staying as it is solely for the sake of "variety"?


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
This is also why Wish getting 3 range to match PD is a good idea.


Well, good to see we agree there.

I'm not sure if Wish "should" be improved beyond that (all at once) to be more likely to hit as well or restore just enough HP so as not get the unit auto-killed by Poison as well.

However, both those things seem unnecessary at present and the improved range should probably be enough to make it worth using (for its 200 JP cost) or, at the very least, not suicidal to use. Besides, Poison's actually surprisingly "bad" at present, though part that is due to how ubiquituous Masamune has been, which is another part of the reason the Regen aspect has been irking me.


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
No, just ONE user of Nameless Dance on one team and ONE user of Slow2 on the other.


Ah, I see.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pmI tested it against both and honestly, if 4 people were marked by the spell, at least two were usually affected at the lowest Faith bracket.


That makes sense seeing how accurate it can be when combined with high Faith and high MA (mages), especially if they get Good or even Best compatibility.

Of course, getting it to constantly target, much less hit, more than 2 people in the first place and matter is the tricky part.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Uses of Masamune:
1. On a Draw OUt user
a. Not a physical damage unit (probably some generic mage)
b. Kind of is a physical damage unit (probably a bard with a harp and overwhelm)
c. Is a physical damage unit (probably female samurai with sticks)
2. On a stall unit
3. On a physical striker


Hmmm...I see. That's an interesting take on things.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
The only case where 2x masamune is maximized is 1c where you have both powerful chiri damage, haste, and physical strikes.  Here, you can strike against M and P-EV.

As Barren proved, 1b is also pretty strong but if you want your magic damage to match max power chiri, you need to pump all your effort into boosting MA and elemental boost, meaning you probably won't have a damaging weapon like a harp.  If you do attempt to mimic 1c with a blood harp and some draw outs on the side, you'll likely get competitive inhibition between overwhelm + blood harp and murasame + overwhelm.
1a is tidally locked into a defense that M-EV can block.


To be honest, I'm not sure what the difference between 1b and 1c are with the way you describe it, especially considering that Bards have more MA than female Samurai to begin with. Additionally, Bards are only one of two classes that can boost MA, so...yeah, a bit confused there.

I understand what you mean about 1a, but I'll comment on that in a bit.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
In other words, only 1c is something that's not easily blocked by just M-EV.  Thus, it's pretty stupid to double up on model 1b/1a in a squad because it will be easy to counter, either elementally or by evasion.  And honestly, if we're talking about those samurais, masamune is the least of your worries.


I could see 1a being "stupid" in the sense that it was on a squad where no unit has the ability to get around M-EV despite all of squad's (relevant) attacks being subject to M-EV. Similarly, Masamune just generally doesn't benefit mages, at least not as heavily as physical units between AI movement behavior & easy speed ties causing mages to get mid-charged as it is and their "squishiness" making Regen less effective.

That said, even with 1a's "stupidity", it seems like you're at least somewhat overestimating how common M-EV is, especially on units that don't have access to shields; arguably even on units that have shields. Aside from aforementioned shields, M-EV is only on about...eight accessories, half of which sucked until very recently. Even then, all of those are seeing at best moderate use save for maybe Wizard Mantle (and that's partly because of Block: Don't Act). It's a lot more likely for people to use Setiemson than an accessory with M-EV still really, though people are increasingly using Mantles (and most other accessories, sans Jade Armlet and a few others), which is a good thing. So I won't deny that M-EV is an issue that must be overcome if you're going to have your team be magickally-based, but it's not really as common as you seem to be implying, especially since charging (and performing?) anything seems to negate it (now?).

See my comment about 1b above.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Usually, stall units will run kiyomori with masamune and murasame/bizen boat.  Having two units with kiyomori is usually overkill because half of your entire party is nearly worthless on the offense while poison/blinding the enemy twice as fast isn't really a virtue if your stall team is sturdy enough (since you only need one unit that the enemy cannot kill slowly spreading poison).  Thus, unless you want an offense like Wiz's S6 team, you probably want only one stall unit with kiyomori, and thus, only one with draw out.


Yes, we can both agree that Kiyomori, especially as a two-of, has been rather ineffectual on any team that wasn't /isn't Wiz's...though that's only fought recently once so far; I'll try to remedy that soon enough while Barren & Otabo record other things.

That said, unless you're talking specifically about stall teams that use Kiyomori for some reason (despite the fact that Kiyomori is currently rather weak for various reasons), I think you're narrowing down the stall teams that can use Masamune well a lot. For example, DomieV's "Famous Knights" team that a few people are gushing over is undoubtedly a stall team and it doesn't use Kiyomori but can use Masamune (all too) well. At the very least, you seem to be discounting some of the more devestating weapon procs that are likely to concur the longer you stall things, such as Battle Axe or Ancient Sword or even some of the mage weapons like Necronomicon.

Additionally, Warpath and Pilgrimage have made stalling rather...interesting in both fighting it and using it, even if Brave UP and Faith UP already technically did what they did respectively. Only you now don't have to give up your reaction and subsequently get hit to increase your Brave or Faith. Given that Warpath tends to backfire less and that Masamune is better on physical units than magickal ones anyway, at least where actual CT-using mages are concerned, Pilgrimage isn't really relevant for this however.

But...yeah. As I'm sure you know, there's more to stalling than just Kiyomori or, subsequently, the Poison status, even with Masamune having Regen at present. This especially because, "ironically", Masamune having Regen is part of the reason that Poison isn't very effective at stalling presently.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
A physical unit doesn't have the MA reserves to use any of the other draw outs.  It may be possible that they may not even have the MA to be able to bizen boat someone effectively.  They are wasting their secondary slot by learning masamune when a time mage secondary can cover haste with spell interruption, % of HP darkness damage, constant damage, and slow, all of things prioritized by the AI if your physical attacker hasn't the range to compete with spells.  (Of course, some people may not want 70 faith, so masamune has its place, but your argument of being completely stronger than time mage is easily disproved.)


Er...what? I never said that Masamune was completely stronger than all of Time Magick. The most I've ever said is that a combination of this:

1. Time Mage and Time Magick have numerous problems, which everyone agrees with.

2. Masamune isn't helping since it's better than the Haste spells due to surety & not caring about Faith and the Slow spells since they have to worry about MP, M-EV and again Faith.

3. Masamune being on the already good skill-set of Draw Out isn't exactly helping Time Magick see use a secondary due to aforementioned problems either. (Outside of Masamune, specifically doesn't really help that Draw Out also has more consistent forms of mage denial & Dark damage and has damage + potential Slow, even if Wind-elemental, as well as arguably the best healing technique in all of ARENA.)


That's it. I've never said that Masamune alone obviates Time Magick as a whole, which seems to be what you're saying I said.

As for physical units not having enough for Bizen Boat or any of the other Draw Outs to be really useful and thus "naturally" preferring Time Magick, that also seems to gloss over a couple of things. Namely, it doesn't touch on the fact that Time Magick would take MP on physical units who otherwise probably have crappy MP, especially with the dearth of equipment that gives MP presently. The second thing is that if Masamune is all they need from Draw Out, then it's not really a "waste", is it? Especially if they used up their JP on other things to be a better physical fighter than some Time Mage-hybrid?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pmThe only partial exception to this is when you are running a unit that starts with 11/12+ speed and no MP reserves, but even then, one has an equal case for item (not to mention snipe, talk skill, steal, or a more damaging secondary).


True. Of course, I'd argue that it's not the only exception, much less "only partial exception", as I just did above.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
In other words, Damned, although double masamune exists, double draw out is hardly the a do or die strategy in the new metagame partly because the prevalence of more M-EV and because masamune is a poor substitute for time magic on most non-MA spec'd teams.  Furthermore, the above strategies are pretty close to mutually incompatible: a stall unit doesn't function well unless the entire team is built around stalling so a stall draw out user + a 1c samurai probably won't exist on the same team, a fast physical unit with masamune alongside a 1c female risks squad separation on large maps as well as the inability to boost them both with songs, etc.  Pretty much, the only teams where I think double draw out is effective are those that use 1c/1b, which have a lot more things "overpowered" about them than masamune.


So noted.

Also, I must ask this question with regards to the statement I put in bold: such as?



Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Already answered a) above.
b) is usually true on all but the largest maps because the AI will use slow2 to preferentially remove haste.  Usually, that is the masamune user, who's next to his comrades that he just boosted.  Even on larger maps, the large AoE usually ensnares the enemy because most teams are built to have units fight together (rather than split up from each other).  Squads that don't will have an edge against a slow2 squad, of course, but fail against general opposition.


While it's true that most squads need to stay within about 4-6 spaces of each other to not die horribly, I think you're rather overestimating just how often Slow 2 hits can target everyone on a team at the same time. Targeting just two units with Slow 2 is good if hits both obviously, but its advantage is short-lived much of the time since Masamune assuredly undoes it even if it manages to hit both characters. It generally needs to hit three or all four characters in my eyes to really be "worth it" since then at least you're not trading one for one with the now-Hasted (again) target now getting Regen (again) and potentially screwing you up mid-charge now because you Slowed him/her for a brief bit and screwed with "speed sync". That and you spent 22 MP versus 0 MP.

So yeah, I'll agree that Slow 2 can be an answer, it just too often isn't. (This for various reasons aren't necessarily Slow 2's or even Masamune's "faults", but more the type of respectively classes they tend to be found on.)

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
As for nameless dance, slow is much less likely to land, but when you consider that blind, silence, and oil are the other options, I think I really don't care what lands, as long as something does.


I concur...which is why I find it odd that you don't mention Nameless Dance later when talking about Oil, but I'm getting ahead of myself here.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
c) This is simply a question of team management.  Your Slow2 user needs a means of MP Restoration (but this is fundamental since any team that has important spells needs MP healing, preferably on the units that use MP).  You want your Slow2 user to move after all the hasted enemy units so slow2 will land.  Since bizen boat is most often used to interrupt charges, the chances your slow2 user was preemptively hit isn't very high (unless you have a ton of other mages charging or a ton of other MP users or units so sturdy that the draw out user may as well use bizen boat).  Given these conditions don't occur, your Slow2 will land on a hasted unit with masamune.  The best part is that since his CT meter is only at around 20-50, he'll be slowed for much too long before he can get another turn, (which he'll waste on masamune to hit at most one other person) giving your other units plenty of time to destroy him or the people around him that you also slowed.  Damned, you overlooked THIS as why Slow2 is strong against masamune; it can give your entire team a free turn to beat up on them.


See above. I'm not entirely discounting that. I'm just discounting that Slow 2, as much as the AI will indeed use it, will always be able to target, much less hit, 3 units or more so as to be "worth" it.

Additionally, given that you brought it up so much with regards to Draw Out, I'm surprised you've acknowledged nothing about Slow 2 also being subject to M-EV in addition to having to worry about Faith and MP. On top of that, even if Slow 2 is the answer, there's really nothing stopping Masamune users from just blocking Slow if they feel they have to, especially since quite a few of them innately use Helms & Armor already and there are two Helms that block Slow. That the one accessory that blocks Slow got buffed to both absorb Earth & Block Oil helps a bit as well.


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
After, obviously.  Y U SO DERP continued to dominate until Absorb Used MP became Auto-Ether, reactions were changed away from simply fury% activation, and blaze gun's WP was boosted to 17 to allow 441 damage.  Incidentally, Absorb Used MP change was the biggest killer because it made witch hunt vulnerable the way wiznaibus was.  This in itself should give credence to why witch hunt > angel song; pretty much, unless you run an all physical squad or openly try to block it and then build your team around it, you will suffer at least one incapacitation on your squad.


I see.

I'm not really sure why you're acting like Absorb MP is such horrible thing for mages to have as a reaction though. It's arguably one of their best reactions to have considering all the things it triggers off of and how, aside from Counter Flood on the few mages with decent PA and sometimes the prone-to-backfire Counter Magick, mages don't really benefit from "active" counters. It's hardly as narrow as Projectile Guard or Finger Guard or Distribute or even Counter/Meatbone Slash with distance weapons, at least now that it's "Auto-Ether" as you put it. That Absorb MP is also in the same skill set as both Defense UP and Move-MP UP helps its "cred" as more than just "anti-Witch-Hunt tech" a lot as well.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Looping indefinitely isn't a strength because dancers don't need to use witch hunt indefinitely.  After the enemy has been incapacitated or enters the strike range of the dancer's secondary, you can do other things.  Even if you don't completely take out someone's MP on a small map, the pressure of fighting at half MP can easily stop the enemy if you can take hits.


Okay, I'll grant you that, especially since Dancers can be built to hit disgustingly hard.



Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Otherwise, your objections are mostly sound.


Thanks. Don't let Raven see you say that, though.

Quick! Hide it in layered spoilers in text the same color as the forum background!

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pmHonestly, silence blocking both song and dance is only fair, but I know Eternal will resist anything resembling turning silence into addle.


I see. Well, nice to know how at least a couple of people feel about it one way or the other considering no one's said anything about it (or several other things) still so far.


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Oil comes from
Short Edge (25%)
Hawkeye (100%)
Geomancy, Summon, and Black Magic (20%)


I'm not really sure how you forgot Nameless Dance (roughly 12% or 13%), especially if you counted Short Edge which no one has any business using at present and were using Nameless Dance as evidence against Masamune earlier. Then again, your post is pretty long, so it happens.

But, yeah, the list might as well eschew Short Edge and Bad Luck, just because no one uses them (for good reason).

With that addressed, let's move on.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Honestly, if the latter hits you, that's just the fault of the map or bad luck, nothing more.


I'm not sure what to make of the wording of this. I guess it's just a difference in our perception of how common M-EV is ultimately, unless you're specifically talking about Demon Fire, which case, yes, it's literally down to the map (even if Demon Fire is one of the more common Elemental abilities).

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Hawkeye is usually substandard damage except on teams that boost their speed, meaning the enemy suspends their heavy damage for a turn (to pummel you next turn if they can manage their CT synchronization) or they aren't fighting at full power to begin with (which would be an archer's kagesougi off a bow).


The thing is though, even with "substandard damage" (despite Archers having access to some of the highest WP weapons innately and above average speed), substandard damage is all they need. Considering that Hawk's Eye/Hawkeye is guaranteed to hit, is guaranteed to add Poison and Oil and that teams that try for Oil can easily hit Oiled/Oily units for 300+ damage, all Hawk's Eye needs to do is knock a bit of HP anyway for the kill. This unless you're a really tanky unit and pretty much no one uses the highest HP gear at present, especially on the armor side. On top of that, it's easier to cure Poison and because the AI prioritizes curing Poison over Oil, the Oil kill is almost guaranteed to happen since nothing except for Refute gets rid of both Poison & Oil (not even death now).

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Short Edge requires ninjas (which aren't very strong offensively) or thieves (which are even worse).  The lethal chain damage is 50% oil + elemental weapon, but honestly, this is no different than climhazzard at 50%.  If you get the 50%, you have a lucky KO.  If you don't, you've dealt far less damage than a better built attacker would have.


See above. Short Edge isn't worth talking about unless we're talking about how to improve it.

So noted though.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Of course, if the initial strike isn't chained, you can have oil persist on your units, disrupting your carefully built elemental defenses, but honestly, how is this any different than silence or blind (both of which persist until death)?  AT least, such oiled units will function as distractions since they will be KO'd in fairly short order (and if you do survive, at least oil goes away).  The process is slower on a blinded or silenced unit but is really no less painful.  If you have the time to heal, tanks can sometimes survive an oiled shot (while armor for knights and accessories for regular units can both block it).  All oil does now is force people to rely less on white robes and thief hats, which dominated the last season.


Blind & Silence are different from Oil for quite a few reasons, though your point about Blind & Silence being more "painful" if allowed to persist is valid:


1. Blind & Silence are way easier to block against than Oil, especially Silence; really, if you get hit by Silence and don't have a way to heal it, you deserve to suffer considering how easy it is to avoid. Hell, Concentrate and (Spell) guns "block" Blind since it's basically irrelevant against them.

2. Blind & Silence don't affect units all equally like Oil does, which only really doesn't "affect" tanks since they tend to be the only type of units that can survive it. Blind is closer to Oil than Silence is, if only because the AI mages tend to be stupid about trying to attack the enemy at times unless they're holding a Healing Staff or an elemental weapon the enemy absorbs (or a Murasame for some reason). Silence is honestly nothing like Oil, right down to the "lingering pain" since, as you note, Oiled units tend to get murdered within a turn. It only affects Faith-based mages and doesn't even affect all things that use MP that are otherwise spell-like such as Song/Sing, Dance and what is now Paladin's Reraise.

3. Blind & Silence are, again, easier to heal. Both are simultaneously cured by Esuna & Stigma Magic (and Refute). Outside of Refute, which basically affects & cures everything that isn't Crystal, Dead or Jumping, no active skill other than Holy Water affects Oil. And people tend to not have Holy Water anyway unless they're dumping about 800+ JP into Chemist since other status cures and actual HP restoration tend to be more important.

4. Blind & Silence tend not to come with as much damage as Oil does, Grand Cross aside. Everything relevant that causes Oil save for Nameless Dance can do a crapload of damage on top of adding Oil, which makes it easier to do a crapload of damage. When it comes to relevant sources of damage that cause either Blind or Silence, aside from Grand Cross and, quite randomly, Kagesougi, there isn't anything else that actually sees use. Bizen Boat, Silencer and Night Killer might qualify if they were used, but no one really uses those, probably due in part to how easy it is to block Blind & Silence.


I'm not saying Oil should be murdered or anything or even that it needs be cured healed by something new, though that would be nice. I just fail to see how giving it a couple of more sources of being blocking, such as on Rainbow Staff and another universal accessory, is overly niche and so bad.

At the very least, you're fine if Rainbow Staff got Block: Oil right? Or is that too "niche" too?


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
Sasuke blade users are mostly thieves, often with EQ Armor, as Wiz used.  In their case, +2 SP is a good way to counterbalance the hidden knife and two swords.  Furthermore, if I want two ninjas with +2 SP from weapons, I wouldn't be able to use 4 hidden knives.


True, I suppose, especially about the weapon limit aspect. Sasuke Blade/Knife being usable by Thieves only is still...decent rather than it seeing next to no use at all, so giving it +2 SP might actually be enough.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 01, 2012, 11:53:11 pm
As for my defense ring proposal, I'm saying that defense ring should null ice (because absorb water is now too strong) while jade armlet should absorb water.


Oh...I understand now. I can get behind that, actually, especially since aside from Rubber Shoes (& technically Feather Boots) and maybe the mantles, the null elemental accessories haven't really been seeing use still. (And it's not like it's named Coral Ring like I wanted anyway. [/pouts])

Hasty EDIT: Whoops. I forgot the Haste & Slow spells redone MP values among other things. Fixed. This obviously how well my all-Time Mage team will do.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on December 02, 2012, 09:02:39 pm
For the record, Short Edge actually procs Oil at 50%. Gaignun asked about this a while back and got a clarification from FFM.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on December 02, 2012, 09:04:22 pm
Yeah, Short Edge is accidentally 50% and hasn't been fixed yet.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on December 02, 2012, 09:08:04 pm
Why not leave it at 50%?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 02, 2012, 09:16:10 pm
Please leave Short Edge at 50%!  That would be like another platina dagger, just with elemental weapons.

Also, can we please boost the evasion on power wrist and genji gauntlet to 25%?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on December 02, 2012, 09:20:01 pm
Thirded.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 03, 2012, 11:13:29 am
(FFMaster, if you have the time, can you clarify whether you meant this post about Transparent (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg181630#msg181628) to be talking about both the attacker and defender's evasion or just the defender's evasion?

Similarly, can you reiterate whether or not Concentrate is affected by Blind?)

So Short Edge actually adds Oil at 50% and not 25%? Oh, then accident or not, that makes it actually useful and usable and should probably stay.

Admittedly, due to my reservations about Oil, I'd probably more comfortable if it were only 33%, especially since it's in the same weapon class as Hidden Knife. That said, I admit that addition of merely +8% probably wouldn't really help it see more. On top of that, in giving a little more thought, I realized that if a Ninja with Hidden Knife chose Short Edge, then he'll basically have to give up using Kagesougi if he wants to inflict Oil for his team. So I'm fine with that trade (for now).

*makes a note of this for complaint thread*

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 02, 2012, 09:16:10 pmAlso, can we please boost the evasion on power wrist and genji gauntlet to 25%?


An increase to 25% seems a bit much. Maybe an increase to 20% instead?

I guess I am not that comfortable with things that increase power being equip in evasion to things meant to dodge, especially when Elf Mantle has no additional effect and even with "only" 20%, Genji Gauntlet & Aegis Shield give you about 50% M-EV and +2 MA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 03, 2012, 11:41:31 am
My blind hack was meant to override concentrate.  You don't have to ask FFM on this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 03, 2012, 01:11:01 pm
(Oh, so Blind does override Concentrate as it's supposed to. I could have sworn that FFMaster said the opposite and that it hasn't worked a few times back. Good to know though. It would also explain why "Blind by the Light"'s Angela used Stigma Magic on herself a couple of months ago despite having Concentrate...; I thought it was just the AI being dumb again.)

Good, I don't have to double post a brief suggestion for Thief of all things since all the Thief usage in recent videos has had me thinking about it and it's a class that no one has talked about when it comes to possible changes & improvements. This is probably because for the most part its abilities is fine, as much as I still feel Quickening needs to die in a fire ultimately. The same goes for its weapon choice, especially if Sasuke Knife adds +2 SP instead of +1, and its stats more or less. It also helps that people are figuring out how to get the AI to actually use Heretic on itself, that I've shown Spellbreaker is worth using and that Steal Accessory ignoring evasion now helped it tremendously. This even if the AI seems to be really dumb about Ruins now, though perhaps just my crappy luck.

Anyway, I've only three things to suggest with regards to Thief at present:


1. Quickening gets raised to 20 MP: Now, this isn't (just) out of spite, but something I realized is probably necessary given how Quickening can be abused so readily even now when every little equipment adds MP. If Hats and Clothes are going to add more MP now, then Quickening doesn't need to be even more abusive. That raising it from 15 MP to 20 MP also has the added benefit of making it less readily abused with Ether, even the weakest of Chakras, Absorb MP and Move-MP Up helps.

2. Thief's MP goes up by +1 for both sexes: Of course, with Quickening now costing 5 more MP, Male Thieves still need to be able to use it at least once even if Female Thieves still can without changes. As I've said before, there's no reason having a skill be in a skill set that the Primary class can't make good use of with its basic stats.

3. Bad Luck's MP gets reduced from 9 to 6 and its Dead proc gets replaced by Frog or Death Sentence: This is easily the suggestion I'm the least "sure" of. This even though I think we can all agree that Bad Luck--can we rename this Jinx?--is frankly nigh unusable right now. Lowering its MP would, again, enable Thieves to use it more in the first place, even if thrice isn't much more than twice. Losing Dead is compensation for it becoming cheaper MP-wise, especially since its unavoidable even if it is random. (Actually, I can never remember due to how its written in the Master Guide. Is it Random? Or Separate? Because it really needs to be Random, especially it has CT that long.) Death Sentence is a pseudo-replacement for Dead as is Frog and both, consciously, have the chance of backfiring, though that's lessened due to all the things that Bad Luck/Jinx can add.

Alternately, keep it 9 MP, but reduce its CT to 3 and have Frog or Death Sentence replace Oil.

Actually, that's another thing really that responding to formerdeathcorps's longer post reminded me of: Bad Luck/Jinx shouldn't really even be capable of adding Oil as it is. It's too random to add a status that a team must be built around to benefit from and I no longer support Raven's tentative proposal to maybe have Oil block Reactions since Oil is strong enough as it is to me, especially with Spellguns around. Everything that Bad Luck/Jinx is able to be inflict thus needs to be able to stand alone, which Oil can't/doesn't.


That's "it" really. Thief's other stats seem more than fine otherwise, especially since they are still the fastest class that can actually have a Secondary and wear equipment. It's also been made extremely obvious by Dokurider's "Chrono Storm" team that Air Knife needs to not be compatible with Two Hands, so no need to go into that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 03, 2012, 04:30:09 pm
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on December 03, 2012, 11:41:31 am
My blind hack was meant to override concentrate.  You don't have to ask FFM on this.


I'm pretty sure he's not USING your Blind hack, FDC.

He made his own, after all.  I know he had to dick around with whatever one he was using because it was not working at ALL for a while.  (As in, Blind literally did nothing.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on December 03, 2012, 09:28:21 pm
Nope, I'm using fdc's one.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 04, 2012, 03:36:39 pm
The Dance of Song and Silence
I like the Idea put forth of Silence Blocking Sing and Dance. IF Dancers get the capability of equipping robes so that they natively have a piece of equipment that can stop it.
That being said I'm not convinced that Dance as an action skill is currently usable. Besides Witch Hunt every Dance is massively underpowered (wizanabus), worthlessly inaccurate,( slow dance),  or has a high probability of being completely pointless even if it does hit (polka polka, Disillusion, nameless dance, Last Dance)

The Invincible Masamune
Yeah this thing is way too powerful,  when 1 action from 1 class finds its way onto 1 out of every 3 units you know you have a problem.   I'd recommend ditching the 100% accuracy and instead have 2 separate 50+ma% chances for each status similar to how the Byblos demon's skill.

Luck and Thieves and  Magic
Theives could use some more MP and some more MA  since for some strange reason 1/3 of their abilities are keyed off a stat in which they have the lowest in the game.  Quickening however could definately stand an increased MP cost as well as an increased JP cost  while Speed ruin and Magic ruin are very over priced and still probably wouldn't see much use even at 100 JP. 


Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 04, 2012, 04:24:42 pm
Dance/Song don't need Silence to counter them.  It has nothing to do with lack of blocking it but that's a different issue.  The issue is that each single Song or Dance doesn't affect the flow of battle heavily, they're a DOT effect that already require very specific setups to work and can be easily shut down through other methods such as Sinkhole.  With magic, Silence is a powerful counter but a single magic casting can heavily affect the flow of battle and most mages (now) can do some decent damage with Attack to mix things up while waiting for Silence to be removed.  Most of the Song/Dance builds that are actually good don't have good Attack damage and require long-term strategies that are easily shut down through other methods.  Adding Silence to that list is stupid. 

Dance isn't particularly weak either, you just need to be patient...

Quickening is still overrated.  Thief could use a bit more base MP, though.  Speaking of base MP, Lancers need Robes back.  They got them in Vanilla and had them removed in 1.3 for AI random equip reasons, but in Arena not having them places them at a major disadvantage as a base class v Paladin and Samurai.  There are many MP-utilizing skillsets that would work well on a Lancer, but your only MP boosting option is the Cross Helm while the other armored classes also get Robes... and yet, Lancer still has "armored Class" HP as if it were able to equip Robes, leaving it fucked.  The Genji Armor was also changed because it was essentially a weaker Light Robe and overlapped... but Lancers can't use the Light Robe either because they get no Robes.  They already have enough issues with Lances not being a populous or varied weapon type (like Katana) and not being able to access other primary weapons (like Paladin can), the least they can get is their goddamn Robes back.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 04, 2012, 06:24:29 pm
Quote
The Invincible Masamune
Yeah this thing is way too powerful,  when 1 action from 1 class finds its way onto 1 out of every 3 units you know you have a problem.   I'd recommend ditching the 100% accuracy and instead have 2 separate 50+ma% chances for each status similar to how the Byblos demon's skill.

Do all of you realize why masamune is back to 100% infliction?  Back when it was randomly adding haste or regen, no one used masamune because it had the same problem as the old Nameless Song; it was so hard to actually add haste that the AI would spam masamune over literally everything else for the entire match.

Instead of reducing Time Mage speed to 8, can we increase it to 10?  I believe Time Mage would actually be stronger this way because:
1) It reduces the need for a SPD investment to become the leadout haste/slow user and makes SC'd haste2/slow2 much easier to attain.
2) It increases the lethality of the 2S staff spammer.
3) It opens up speed dependent setups involving hawk's eye
4) It makes spell interruption off sinkhole and suppression sniping off comet more likely.
5) Mages could use a fast option.

While we're on the subject, can we raise Ninjitsu back to PA * 10 since it now takes evasion?  I don't want it being so overnerfed that people run 40 faith teams without fear.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 05, 2012, 09:29:00 pm
Don't see how you can call it over-nerfed.  Right now it's equal to Tier-1 Black Magic with 0 CT, lower MP costs, and access to the Flash Hat to grant both Auto-Innocent for a solid power boost and more MP for more casts of Ninjitsu, whereas equivalent Black Magic relies on the Faith Rod which takes up your weapon slot, meaning you don't get to choose a powerful handheld to supplement your Black Magic the way you can with Ninjitsu.

Being PA based also makes it more compatible with one of the stronger forms of MP regeneration (Chakra, and in turn, access to that entire skillset of worthwhile skills) and being instant makes it strong for Blitzkrieg tactics that magic can't really do easily.  It's a shadow of its former self but its by no means weak, a testament to how strong ye olde Ninjitsu was.

I would be in favor of doing something with Ninjitsu like was done with Black Magic though and give each one its own properties though:

Meiton @ PA*9, Reflectable, Evadable, 11 MP, NO Counter Magic, NO Counter Flood, DARK
Fuuton @ PA*10, Reflectable, Evadable, YES Counter Magic, Counter Flood, 16 MP, WIND
Suiton @ PA*8, Non-Reflectable, Non-Evadable, YES Counter Magic, YES Counter Flood, 6 MP, WATER

Something like this would work.  Meiton is the current Ninjitsu minus some counterablity, Fuuton is "old" Ninjitsu with Evasion at a higher MP cost, and Suiton is a cheaper, lower-damage option that bypasses evasion and Reflect the way old Ninjitsu did.

It'd be a small buff that adds options to the Ninjitsu set and gives people reasons to double up beyond "oh they might absorb my primary one".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 06, 2012, 12:51:49 am
I actualy like being able to run 40 faith units without Black costume and small mantle being mandatory.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 06, 2012, 01:50:27 am
I cannot agree.  There should exist no safe number in this game; no one should have the mental security in this game that having 40 fury or faith will guarantee safety vs. enemy units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 06, 2012, 01:53:00 am
Malroth, that was never mandatory even back when Ninjitsu ran off a 10 Y with no Evasion or Reflect, a MP cost o 6 each, and you could get more powerful damage stacks, Innocent, had much strong Element Absorption/Negation combo options than you do now, and most offensive alternatives to Ninjitsu were a lot weaker than they are currently.  I'm also fairly certain Ninjitsu had 6 range back then, too.

Stop being derp.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 06, 2012, 03:06:33 am
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on December 04, 2012, 04:24:42 pmQuickening is still overrated.  Thief could use a bit more base MP, though.  Speaking of base MP, Lancers need Robes back.  They got them in Vanilla and had them removed in 1.3 for AI random equip reasons, but in Arena not having them places them at a major disadvantage as a base class v Paladin and Samurai.  There are many MP-utilizing skillsets that would work well on a Lancer, but your only MP boosting option is the Cross Helm while the other armored classes also get Robes... and yet, Lancer still has "armored Class" HP as if it were able to equip Robes, leaving it fucked.  The Genji Armor was also changed because it was essentially a weaker Light Robe and overlapped... but Lancers can't use the Light Robe either because they get no Robes.  They already have enough issues with Lances not being a populous or varied weapon type (like Katana) and not being able to access other primary weapons (like Paladin can), the least they can get is their goddamn Robes back.


I agree with this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 10, 2012, 08:32:43 pm
(Ugh. I should have done this yesterday, but forgot. Now I have to do it today or else it will nag me until Saturday, only for me to have forgotten about it today.

I'll proofread this next weekend since I've spent more than enough time typing it up. Apologies, though I've typo'd horribly enough here that you can probably grasp what I'm rambling about unless I omitted a negative. Even then....)


First, though, I agree with the proposed changes to the elemental Ninjutsu and to Lancers getting back Robes, even though both Ninja & Lancer are already among the stronger classes. That said, Lancer getting back Robes, specifically Black Robe, makes it pretty much necessary that Spear, Mythril Spear & Partisan take that WP drop I was previously ambivalent become the same elements as their Breaths. Yes, I'm aware they could have been powered up by Kaiser Plate, but if Robes are back, then that means they get to potentially equip other shields instead of having to give up (more) evasion otherwise to 108 Gems. Spears & Jump already hurt enough as it is without more options to make them horrifically damaging, but at the same time there's really no good reason that Lancers should be kept from having Robes again if the other Heavy Armor classes have it.

That said, I'm going to spend the rest of this time talking about how I should be doing some else if I don't want to fail classes about weapons or, rather, weapons that we haven't talked about at present, like Knightswords, after realizing something from the latest series of videos. It helps that there aren't very many weapons we haven't talked about yet, so it will also help me get something down so that it isn't nagging me. (Then, like hydra, two more things will step into its place.)

Regardless, this will also serve as a "recap" I guess, though we are going of my crappy memory here, so I'm probably forgetting some things and I'm definitely not hitting everything since people obviously have differing opinions than I do whether they've posted them or not:


I always wanted to use that stupid phrase; now I just have to use it in a smutty context and I cross it off my "bucket list":


1. Knives: Well, Air Knife obviously needs to lose Two Hands so as not to be murder machine from which there is almost no escape, especially since it benefits from Oil. Other than that, Knives seem more or less fine now, since Two Hands have benefited the other three Knives without making them absolute monsters. Throwing Knife might need a bit more  power though since so it's been rather...lackluster at best. Repel Knife, at the very least, needs its description fixed since it is not All or Nothing Haste & Don't Act.

(Personal) Consensus: Air Knife loses Two Hands. Throwing Knife maybe gets +1 WP. Mage Masher and Repel Knife's descriptions in the Master Guide get fixed.



2. Ninja Swords: I agree with Raven that trying to fix these are is best left to ARENA 140 most likely since there's "a lot" wrong with them. Rather, it's fairer to say, there's very little incentive to use anything that isn't Hidden Knife, Ninja Knife (only due to Kagesougi), (now, by accident) Short Edge and maybe Sasuke Knife.

Consensus: Largely skipping this, but if some changes "should" happen here, then Short Edge gets to keep its 50% Oil (for now) and that gets fixed in the Master Guide. Additionally, Sasuke Knife should probably get +2 Speed; it might "need" to lose a bit of WP though. Not really sure.



3. Swords: As formerdeathcorps said, not was really wrong with these to begin with. For the most part, the ones that went used were just kind of...bland. That said, I like most of the changes save Phoenix Blade, which I'm still...unsure about. People are pretty much using everything else save Ice Brand & Platinum Sword.

Consensus: These are fine for now...except maybe Phoenix Blade that needs more time to "marinate". Well, that and fix Shieldrender please.



4. Knight Swords: Okay, so we come to the first category things that I really want to talk about. After watching Otabo's latest videos, I've come to realize that even with the power ups, Save the Queen and Ragnarok haven't been used in 138 so far at all. The premiere Knight Swords are Chaos Blade, now that both Southern Cross and its W-EV exist, and of course Excalibur; even Defender got at least some use in the original version of DomieV's team. It's certainly still usable due to the immunity to Don't Act  and all that W-EV though, even with the boost to Main Gauche.

Save the Queen and Ragnarok though...there's no really any reason to use them if you think about it. Chaos Blade, Masamune (the Katana) & the finally increasingly in-use Dispel Magic strip it of its initial enchantments. Paladin, the only class that use either of them innately, now have Iron Will to use and abuse. The perfumes are better them now and yet it would obviously be too much to make the initial aspect of either of them into Always.

So...I'm at a loss at how to improve Save the Queen or Ragnarok. Off the top of my head, possible changes--note I'm not calling them improvements--would to make Save the Queen also have Initial: Shell in addition to Initial: Protect. Then Ragnarok would become a Dark version of Excalibur.

Of course, those aren't necessarily improvements. Save the Queen becomes extremely obnoxious while at the same time still being relatively ineffectual due to the aforementioned Iron Will and dispelling abilities. Ragnarok is somewhat better, but it already exists for Paladins since they have the ability wield Koutetsu Knife, which is better than it due to being able to Two Handed.

(Also, I'm not convinced that any of these really needed power increases, particularly Excalibur.)

Consensus: Save the Queen and Ragnarok need some type of improvement. Chaos Blade needs the "Reriase" in the Master Guide fixed still.



5. Katana: Despite being the person who "fixed" these, as helped by Raven & FFMaster & co., I...actually think these are fine. Surprisingly I managed to not fuck something up for once. Go me.

Consensus: These are actually fine.



6. Axes: Despite being such a small category, these are problematic. The same thing goes for the other two really small categories, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

I'm increasingly convinced that Battle Axe's proc is rather overpowered since pretty much the only way to survive it is be at 100% health and even that's iffy. Battle Axe isn't Platina Dagger, so it can hit by itself without procs for rather respectable damage--100+--for its relatively low PA even without Two Hands. The proc hitting for a full 85% of Max HP that can't be evaded just seems...excessive.

On the flip side, Slasher is thusly nigh worthless because of the above since Battle Axe ends up being great just for both offensive and defensive builds. After all, given how much damage Decapitate can do and how no one can dodge it, if you're going to outright attack with an Axe, then you might as well play the odds with Battle Axe since it's way stronger at its apex than Slasher ever will be.

Giant Axe, the appropriate middle man, is actually fine and is finally seeing some use now.

Consensus: Battle Axe's proc gets renamed "Maim" and ends up "only" doing 50% of TarMaxHP, which makes it potentially survivable. It should maybe also drop by one WP and/or to 20% proc chance, but that seems a tad...excessive.

Regardles, Slasher needs some type of improvement like Knight Swords, but like with Knight Swords, I currently can't think of anything.



7. Rods: Much like Swords & Katana, these are fine. (Even if I'll never be able to do my Ninja idea now that they're MA * WP.... Sadface.)

Consensus: These are fine.



8. Staves: We've had a rather...robust back and forth about this already. For the most part, everyone seems to think Gold Staff is fine and everyone else seems to think Mace of Zeus is fine. On the flip side, everyone agrees that White Staff, Healing Staff and Rainbow Staff need some type of buff. Wizard Staff, on the other hand, seems to be the most contenious with regards to how it should be changed, at least when it comes to Raven, Dokurider and I's proposals all being rather different. So I'll leave that one alone for now.

Consensus: Gold Staff is fine; Mace of Zeus is maybe fine. Rainbow Staff should probably Block: Oil at the least; it also needs to lose its description that it's still all elements in the Master Guide. White Staff should almost assuredly become Holy element, though I don't think anyone has commented on that one way or the other. Healing Staff seems to be agreed that it should add +1 Sp and boost both Holy & Dark now. There might have been some other things, such as it getting a name change, in which I'd say either Chaos Staff or Cosmos Staff are fine (if those don't become the new names for Wizard Staff & White Staff respectively).

As for Wizard Staff, I'll leave that alone for now since not everyone agrees with my version of it becoming a Dark version of the now Holy-element White Staff.



9. Flails: These are fine surprisingly. I only say "surprisingly" because I'm still not that big on self-strengthening weapons, but they seem to work on ARENA presently, Mace of Zeus potentially an exception.

Consensus: These are fine (though I personally wouldn't mind some possible changes to Scorpion Tail, especially if Wizard Staff becomes not +2 MA like I want it to).



10. Guns: The "regular" guns still seem fine, if lackluster, for the most part. At present, Stone Gun is one of the few things that makes Salty Rage worth attempting to use. The spellguns, though, are still...kind of overpowered it seems. I'm not sure if it's just because of Oil though, admittedly, or just the fact that they're still unable to be dodged but now benefit from Pilgrimage as well despite the damage nerf.

Consensus: Spellguns may have to be nerfed again, but that might just be me.



11. Crossbows: Well, aside from needing to fix Bow Gun, I...guess these are fine? No one's really used any of these still aside from the aforementioned currently broken Bow Gun and the already strong Hunting Bow. When it comes to the other four though...I think someone's tried to use Gastrafatis and I know I've tried to use Poison Bow, but other than that....

That said, Gastrafitis and Night Killer, probably fine.

Silencer & Poison Bow though....

Well, Poison Bow just seems a bit redundant with Hawk's Eye around, which is why I imagine that it has more WP despite Poison lasting for longer now. With regards to the increased WP, it seems like that would be better on Silencer considering how frequent Block: Silence is, but meh.

Consensus: Silencer & Poison Bow probably need changes and Bow Gun's Armor Break doesn't work presently. The other three crossbows are probably fine though.



12. Longbows: The changes to all the bows except for Silver Bow have made them a lot more worth using. As such, everything but Silver Bow has been used in 138 already. As for fixing Silver Bow, I'm not really sure how. Perhaps give +1 MA as a start? Maybe even +2 MA?

Even that seems...lacking though.

Consensus: Everything is fine except for Silver Bow, which still isn't really worth that using seeing how both it and Windslash Bow have the same power when powered up. This when Windslash Bow's proc is unavoidable and not reliant on Faith or MA. Having to compete with Long Bow having more range, Mythril Bow & Ultimus Bow having more power & Ice Bow & Lightning Bow having more utility make it the easily the weakest.

I'm not sure how to fix it though.



13. Bloody Strings Harps: Full stop, Bloody Strings is overpowered still. The other two Harps aren't completely trash, but compared to Bloody Strings current level of power, there is very little incentive to use anything else due to the way that drain attacks work at present.

Consensus: Please drop Bloody Strings to 8 WP.Also, please rename Ramia Harp into Lamia Harp.



14. Books: These are fine for the most part I suppose, even if Madlemgen might need to differ from Fairy Harp if Harps become part of Equip Magegear. Similarly, Monster Dict/Bestiary could maybe stand to have a higher level of proc due to how weak Magic Ruin is compared to the other three procs, but otherwise, everything seems "fine".

Consensus: More or less fine.



15. Spears: As stated above with regards to Robes, Spears & Mythril Spear & Partisan need to take WP nerfs if they're becoming the same element as their breaths. Other than that, these are more or less fine I guess.

Holy Lance is already getting fixed proc-wise, so no comment on that.

Consensus: Spear, Mythril Spear & Partisan all become 9 or 10 WP and Fire, Ice and Lightning elemental respectively.



16. Sticks: I'm convinced that these are for the most part fine, especially now that I realize how Innocent status works with the variable Faith stat "fix". I do agree with the statement that Iron Fan is rather...bland, but that can also wait until 140.

Consensus: All but Iron Fan can are more or less fine while Iron Fan can wait to be "fixed" until 140.



17. Bags: These are all usable now, so, uh, good job and such.

Consensus: These are fine. However, please note that all classes can use Bags somewhere (clearer) in the Master Guide. Thank you.



18. Cloths: Basically the same problem as Save the Queen & Ragnarok plague these,  right down to having to compete with the new Swords. That said, unlike Save the Queen & Ragnarok, these can be used with Shields, so I'm less worried about them ultimately, especially since I've used them myself and they might become available via Equip Polearm.

So...I'm not sure if these should change, even though dispelling their special aspects makes all three carbon copies of each other.

Consensus: Fine? Even if not, they can probably wait until 140.



I'll refrain from replying to anyone until Saturday...no, make that Sunday since I might accidentally eviscerate them in bitterness.


Refuting EDIT: Oh, damn it. I ended up forgetting something anyway:

Refute should probably lose its ability to cancel Charging & Performing. This only occurred to me when it was revealed that, for some reason, it will cancel the Performing status of its allies at times. Perhaps it's because their evasion is reduced to 100%, but so far I've yet to see it cancel a Charging ally; I wouldn't really be surprised if it did, though.

Regardless, even if that wasn't the case, Talk Skill already has the most skills that tell mages to screw off anyway between Blackmail, Insult, Mimic Daravon and arguably Solution. So, yeah... Refute should probably lose that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 10, 2012, 09:29:24 pm
I'll comment on other shit later, but point out now that the loss of HP from a Black Robe (which averages 50 or 60 HP, as its the Robe that gives the lowest amount of HP) is a lot more crippling than using a Kaiser Plate, as Kaiser Plate has moderate P-EVD and M-EVD.  Unless you need MP or are using a particular Shield effect Kaiser Plate + Any Armor is outright better than Any Shield + Black Robe because it gives you more P-EVD, more M-EVD, and more HP for the same end effect.  You can't use Two Hands on any of the Element Spears, remember.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 10, 2012, 11:27:01 pm
(Last comment until Saturday, I "swear".)

True, true. Also, I suppose if Bow Gun and Shieldrender get fixed, then both things are equally susceptible to destruction with Black Robe being more so considering Bow Gun's range, even if that's susceptible to Projectile Guard. I did remember that the non-Holy-Breath lances weren't usable with Two Hands, though.

*shrug*

Those three lances are going to have to take a WP hit if they become elemental anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 10, 2012, 11:41:58 pm
I don't see why.  Weapons like the Platinum Sword can be used with Two Hands and have 12 WP.  All this is would be PA * 1.25 (rounddown) * WP with Attack UP as your biggest booster... with neither being able to boost damage from the Jump command.  I mean, it has that MA*8 proc, but... err... that's literally 48 damage after Element Boost.

Gonna tell me you really wanna lower the WP on a weapon not compatible with Two Hands because it has a 50% chance to proc 48 damage?  Weapons like Ice Brand have 14 WP and actually proc good skills like Ice 2 of classes with an actual MA stat, and those can be Elemental Boosted.  Iga and Koga Knife combo are a self-boosting 11 WP pair together and compatible with Two Swords. Asura Knife is a self-boosting 10 WP weapon on a class with innate Two Hands.  The "boring" Iron Fan and Dragon Whisker both just outright give you 14 WP, which is only slightly weaker than a 12 WP weapon with Element Boost usually.

So.  Um.

Yeah.

Gonna say you're really really wrong there.

-----

Meh, I'm needing a procrastination for a few mins, let's roll.

Throwing Knife - This could easily be 12 WP to match Katar and Orichalcum with range being its perk compared to stats and Two Hands. 

Air Knife - I'd say this is better dropped to 11 WP, because Katar, Orichalcum, and Throwing Knife are meant to be your primary "high WP" Knives anyway unless the wool's been polled over my eyes on that one.  It is fairly strong for a Two Hands compatible weapon, though.


I'mma just post a list of weapons instead of replying to you directly here.

(Note: All of these would be compatible with both Two Swords and Two Hands.)

Hidden Knife - 8 WP. 0% W-EVD, No Element, Always: Transparent, +1 SPD
Ninja Knife - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, +1 PA
Short Edge - 10 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Oil
Ninja Edge - 9 WP. 15% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Don't Move
Spell Edge - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Cast: Dark Sword (P-EVable) or 100% Cast: Spell Absorb
Sasuke Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Fire Element, Boost: Earth (Insert Naruto Joke Here) (Make Icon Red)
Koga Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Earth Element, Boost: Fire
Orochimaru Fang - 12 WP, 0% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Blind

Keeps them doing more or less what they're already doing, just better and a bit more varied about it.  Also removes the Iga Knife / Spiked Futon overlap.



Phoenix Blade - Gain Immune: Critical.

Parry Edge - Boost to 25% W-EVD.  20% W-EVD each is shit and not worth using Two Swords for any unit that could use Attack UP and Escutcheon II, and Two Swords Parry Edge isn't much stronger (if at all) than a 14 WP Sword with Attack UP supplemented by Escutcheon II.  That's why I originally proposed this to have 25% W-EVD but everyone flipped a shit over it, and now it's kinda garbage.



Defender - Becomes 16 WP.
Save the Queen and Ragnarok - become Always: Protect and Always: Shell and 15 WP.

Since status is permanent now, Defender needs to be stronger to be worth using, so WP swaps around.



Battle Axe - W-EVD reduced to 20%.  Decap Proc damage reduced to 50% Max HP. This really is stupidly strong lol.

Slasher - W-EVD reduced to 25%.  Gain compatibility with Two Swords for optimum hilarity.


This is the part where I get bored and decide to go to sleep.  Maybe I'll finish it tomorrow.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on December 11, 2012, 07:08:20 am
lol dual wielding axes :P

but yea Raven, I can't see the spoiler for the knightswords because nothing pops up when I click on it.

One comment I do want to make about the Orochimaru Fang weapon: You really want Abandon to be THAT much more useful by adding blind?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on December 11, 2012, 09:19:13 am
Quote from: Barren on December 11, 2012, 07:08:20 am
lol dual wielding axes :P

but yea Raven, I can't see the spoiler for the knightswords because nothing pops up when I click on it.

One comment I do want to make about the Orochimaru Fang weapon: You really want Abandon to be THAT much more useful by adding blind?

That's because there's an apostrophe in "Knight's".  If you quote Raven's post you'll be able to see the text inside the spoiler.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on December 11, 2012, 10:30:13 am
Fixed the spoiler tag.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on December 11, 2012, 07:08:21 pm
Also. Why is Yell 8 MP when Masamune does the same thing for free, with AoE, and Regen?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 11, 2012, 07:47:46 pm
Because it's half the JP cost and has more range?

It could lose that 3 CT, though.  There's no reason for anything other than Ultima to have a CT.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on December 12, 2012, 05:21:43 am
Air Knife: 11 WP was exactly the number I was thinking of proposing. In any case, Air Knife should remain a Two Handed weapon as many elemental two handable weapons still remain out there, only with better damage formulas.

Everything else Raven proposed, I agree with, although I will say that I thought the reason Battle Axe had that powerful of a proc was to simulate Dead proc. Why not just give it a Dead proc was beyond me.

Now for a proposal of my own. With testing of my thief team, I initially found that Heresy is next to near worthless, as they refuse to use it. But, as I spoke with fdc about that matter, it does have a use, for ninjas who want a free innocent. But it actually not really that free, as it requires a specific, and in my opinion, rather dubious, strategy that involves Ninjas and 9 Speed Lores, to make it work reliably. But even then, it's still worthless on it's native class, being too fast to Innocent themselves in time until late into the match when speed synch has kicked into full.

So here are some proposals to fix this:

1 (FDC's idea): Swap it with Ninja's Houkouton, so that 9 SP Lore strategy can be utilized by other Jobs.
2: Change it to something better
3: Make it add something else, so that they use it right when the battle starts. Preferable Regen, because the AI can't stop slathering themselves with that, maybe they'll even overlook Innocent.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 12, 2012, 02:41:40 pm
("Back" sooner than I should be since...things, though I really shouldn't have time on Friday at least. Not that anything is urgent.)

Yes, I can agree with Yell needing to be instant if it's going to be useful or, at least, if it's going to be able to remain competitive against Masamune and the buffs to Time Mage & Time Magic(k).

Speaking of CT, I still think that Ultima could stand to be 6 CT rather than 7 since its damage isn't nearly as bonkers as it was when it was getting used and abused before its nerf. Then again, I don't think it's necessarily hurting it hat much as 7 CT when it has AoE, so meh.

***

As I just noticed in the latest series of videos, Air Knife isn't adding Sleep as it's supposed to. If Air Knife is getting changed though, then that raises another question or two: Should it be fixed to properly add Sleep? Should it add anything at all?


Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on December 10, 2012, 11:41:58 pm*Elemental spear stuff*


Shrug. I guess we could keep them at the WP that they have now even though Oil exists and Lancer will finally be able to use Grand Cross now and see what happens. Might as well, really. Just think they might need to ultimately be lowered even if perhaps not by that much.

Also, I'm not sure if Ice Brand is such a good example considering....

I forget though. What were the Breaths before when they were first added and basically doing like 50% HP damage? PA-based?

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on December 10, 2012, 11:41:58 pm*suggestions for Knives, Ninjato, Swords, Knight Swords and Axes*


I'll just respond to this category by category, though for the most part, I'm fine with these changes:


1. Knives: Throwing Knife getting 12 WP is fine. I actually wanted to give it more WP, but you already know I err on the side of caution. Air Knife only dropping to 11 WP yet still being able to used with Two Hands is...not something I'd prefer, but I guess like Spears we can try it out and just drop Two Hands later if it's still so strong. I can't imagine it would drop the power too much to prevent Dokurider's current set-up from OHKO'ing most things no wearing armor (or Thief Hats), but I could be wrong. That tends to happen.


2. Ninjato: I like most of these changes, especially if Hidden Knife is probably staying as it is otherwise. One can only want for Sasuke Knife to be more effective than it's possibly referenced namesake considering how hard Fire attacks blow in that franchise, but more Fire-elemental weapons is always nice and old Iga Knife was indeed always redundant. When it comes to new Spell Edge, personally I'd go with Dark Sword since that's PA-based. Either that or make it proc Spell Absorb and give +1 MA since Ninja MA is...average at best otherwise; Dark Sword is probably the better choice.

As for Orochi(maru) Fang, I sort of agree with Barren about Abandon even though the weapon itself has no W-EV. Maybe only 33% Blind?


3. Swords: I'm not sure why Phoenix Blade already needs another buff, but I can at least understand the general sentiment I suppose. Are we sure that immune to Critical doesn't screw with the AI though, especially when it comes to being resurrected at what would normally be Critical? Regardless, I can agree about Parry Edge getting boosted, though I can't remember if I was one of the people who "flipped his shit" about it initially. Shrug.


4. Knight Swords: Eh, I guess. Giving both of those Always Barriers seems potentially rather obnoxious, especially since Paladin already has the most HP and a bunch of good stuff (like Lancer). Of course, I think pretty much everything should be usable and Save the Queen & Ragnarok aren't currently, so if this is what it takes, so be it; that Defender gets a buff is just a perk.


5. Axes: I agree with both these changes.


Quote from: Dokurider on December 12, 2012, 05:21:43 am
Air Knife: 11 WP was exactly the number I was thinking of proposing. In any case, Air Knife should remain a Two Handed weapon as many elemental two handable weapons still remain out there, only with better damage formulas.


Perhaps, but I wouldn't say that (PA+SP)/2*WP formula is exactly terrible, at least when it comes to Knives for Thieves since they naturally have 10 and automatically have access to one of only two ways to repeatedly raise one's Speed stat. So, as with your current Air Knife set-up, they only have to really worry about boosting PA, which Two Hands already takes care of. That or alternately use a lot of Speed gear and whore the cheaper Accumulate.

Quote from: Dokurider on December 12, 2012, 05:21:43 am
Everything else Raven proposed, I agree with, although I will say that I thought the reason Battle Axe had that powerful of a proc was to simulate Dead proc. Why not just give it a Dead proc was beyond me.


I thought that Battle Axe was the way it was merely because FFMaster borrowed it wholesale--nothing wrong with that--from 1.3. where that design (arguably) worked and since Axes were basically not worth using at all before that. So less "pseudo-Add: Dead" and more "it works (even if quite overpowered)".

Adding direct Dead is probably even worse then the current Decap though, since that's at least potentially survivable (even if it often isn't) without needing to have one of about half a dozen items to guarantee survival if the proc goes. Of course, it's also potentially worse than Decap in the "hmmm...this weapon sucks now" way since at least half a dozen items block Dead. Still, I suppose that's maybe more "fair" than Ancient Sword, so who knows.

Quote from: Dokurider on December 12, 2012, 05:21:43 am
*Heretic stuff*

So here are some proposals to fix this:

1 (FDC's idea): Swap it with Ninja's Houkouton, so that 9 SP Lore strategy can be utilized by other Jobs.
2: Change it to something better.
3: Make it add something else, so that they use it right when the battle starts. Preferable Regen, because the AI can't stop slathering themselves with that, maybe they'll even overlook Innocent.


I'm not sure about how I feel about 1, partly because I'm iffy about Thief's getting potentially decent AoE, especially since I suspect that Houkouton is still getting some change versus Spin Fist, with its Speed. Also iffy because I'm not sure Ninja needs more free power-ups even though, yes, it can currently use Heretic the best--only?--of any class.

The second option isn't really a valid option, in the sense that "duh". The third option is...meh. Poison currently sucks as it is with all the Regen flying around and the AI doesn't really use Regen unless it's already injured. So, yeah, it would probably use it more than it does now, but it still wouldn't use it right off the bat, if that's what you want.

Similarly, if we're talking about Heretic needing a change, then what of Solution (& Praise)?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on December 12, 2012, 04:25:17 pm
Ultima is at 5 CT. So it definitely shouldn't be at 6.

If those spears were to gain elements, don't think their WP needs to be lowered. They can't even be two-handed, and you want to hurt their damage even more? Even with Strengthen: Element, max damage setup (off top of my head) of: [Spear]/Kaiser Plate/Barbuta/Carabini Mail/Bracer and Attack UP gives... 264. So even if it weren't a max damage setup, the damage would still be fairly reasonable. Drop the WP, and they become a lot less desirable. Might only be worth using with Oil at that point (ok obviously not 100% true, but goodness the damage would be a lot worse with the lowered WP). Jump damage would also go down with the lower WP.

Actually, if you lower their WP, then they'd be like Holy Lance, only it's not 2Hable and on more easily blocked elements, and Holy Lance isn't really used in the first place. Definitely no to lowering their WP.

You do bring up a good point about Preach and Solution, though, and I would like to see Preach, Solution, and Persuade all get an accuracy buff. I think the low hit-rate shies people away from using them. Especially notable is in the case with Persuade, since Mimic Daravon does a similar thing, only with much more benefits, and at only a 5% accuracy penalty. How does Preach and Solution up to MA+60%, and Persuade up to MA+55% sound?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on December 12, 2012, 04:50:43 pm
Re: Abandon / Orochimaru Fang- No one cared about Blind Knife, which had a 50% Blind Proc, 15% EVD, and was innately usable on the shield-bearing Squire class as well as Ninja, as well as being more widely usable in general.  This is a 0 W-EVD option only really available to Ninjas and Thieves that'd primarily see use because it has 12 WP.  Not to mention you've got Night Killer whipping out 50% Blind from range on multiple classes that bear shields innately.  (Namely Squire and Archer.)  0 W-EVD and Fang's availability don't make it a particularly good Abandon weapon, it would just be a high-damage option that procs Blind, which is useful on its own, but is designed in a way that actually discourages Abandonspam.

Heretic and Houkouton should be switched and properly renamed.  Heretic is an Iron Will-class status buff where its only purpose is to be directly useful to its base class or other setups trying to do things similarly to what its base class tries to do.  Thieves can easily make use of a skill like Houkouton since it gives decent weapon-independent damage as area control which Ninjas don't really need, and Ninjas can obviously make use of Heretic in their base class, as can most people who sub Ninjitsu.  The best answer though is to probably to switch Heretic over to Ninja then just toss Houkouton for something else because it's just a derpy Spin Fist.

Preach / Solution are more along the Yin-Yang and White/Time Magic style of buffs so there's nothing to change on them, they're just not easy to use.  They (and Persuade) should have their hit rates buffed as CT5Holy said, though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 12, 2012, 07:22:06 pm
(I still wonder why no one is using Night Killer, so I have to wonder if it or Silencer [or Poison Bow] are probably working considering Bow Gun....)

Yeah, I guess can agree with all that, especially since it's not like Heretic is going to see much use otherwise.

I do have to wonder why the AI didn't use Persuade when I had it though since the AI is supposed to whore "CT to 00". Also don't think I've ever seen the AI use Preach, but Solution should work in the same situation as Heretic, if worse.

Speaking of Heretic going to Ninja, just rename it "Mu" (Nothingness/Emptiness). There. Done.

Not sure what the hell would replace Houkouton on Thief though without still getting obviated by Spin Fist in most instances. Having a tri-directional attack still might be nice though....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on December 12, 2012, 07:46:16 pm
Air Knife's sleep is probably working correctly, but who knows? It keeps killing everyone before it gets to proc. Hehe.
But seriously, I think a Sleep proc is overkill.

I suppose adding Regen would be a little excessive for Heretic. Adding Defend would probably work out better. Or moving it to Ninjas. I'm fine with either.

How would you feel about making Houkouton Fire Elemental guys? Or at least replacing it with a Fire elemental skill? Fire Elemental has been very underrepresented in the physical department as of late, and while Asura Knife and upcoming Fire Spear and Orochimaru Fang will help that, an AoE Fire skill would see a more subdued return of Fire Absorb teams. Fire Absorb teams weren't bad, they were just powered by an abusable skill. This will be nothing like the Asura days of old, with less AoE, physical evadability, and an MP cost making it less abusable. It'll help differentiate itself from Spin Fist and it'll give Cursed Ring users a little more to be afraid of.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 12, 2012, 10:35:20 pm
(Let's see if I can respond concisely to this.)

1. Air Knife's Sleep proc isn't working. Your latest match against Jumza is where I finally noticed. It's easiest to tell if you pause it when your Thief attacks his Knight in the first round. But, yeah, it doesn't really need it, at least if it's keeping Two Hands and Oil remains around as it is.

2. Defending (or Haste) would work out better in term of use, but Defending would be really obnoxious, especially if it remained on Thief. Good luck hitting a Defending, Innocent Thief that just has C-EV & Main Gauche without Concentrate.

3. A Fire-type elemental skill and the original tri-directional Asura was actually what I think of when it came to possibly changing Houkouton if Thief gets it, so I'd suppose that. You could name it "Fire Bomb" ala the Juggler skill from FFT:A, though there's probably a better name if it's tri-directional.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 13, 2012, 01:14:44 pm
Quote from: The Damned on December 12, 2012, 07:22:06 pmSpeaking of Heretic going to Ninja, just rename it "Mu" (Nothingness/Emptiness). There. Done.


How about Mushin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushin) (無心)?  It has strong Zen/Buddhist connotations.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 13, 2012, 05:13:37 pm
(Ugh. Damn it. I totally meant "no one" in that post at the top of the page, not "anyone".)

Sure, "Mushin" is even better. I mean, it's ultimately up to FFMaster, including whether Ninja gets what was formerly called Heretic at all, but it seems pretty clear that if they are going to get it, then it's going to be Mu[something].
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 14, 2012, 02:01:58 am
Move  Blind Charm and Stop  immunity from Chakra band to Choice Band so there's an actual reason to choose choice band.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 19, 2012, 08:06:38 pm
(Here are two more Ninja-related things that have occurred to me that I might as well post before I forget again like always.)

1. Kagesougi really doesn't seem like it needs to able to proc Don't Act given the good amount of damage--200~--it usually does on average. At present, Don't Act just seems like a leftover artefact of Doku No Kyoukai that results in making Kagesougi a bit too good. This if only because it's on the class that automatically gets pseudo-Concentrate via Hidden Knife and almost always hits twice via innate Two Swords. Damage and Don't Act would perhaps be fine if it wasn't for those, which is why I don't have a problem with Silf or the new Lightning Bow especially since those are 20% and elemental yet can't be used for team healing like so many other elemental abilities. So...yeah.

2. Should anything be done about Tsumazuku? In theory, it seems like it might be a decent enough ability, but the AI has literally never used it. At this point, I think the only other ability I haven't seen the AI ever use is Preach, and that was only after it was changed to Add: Faith. In addition, as just mentioned, with Kagesougi's ability to Don't Act present, there's really no reason to ever use it if you're "worried" about canceling Haste. So...replace it? Or fix it? Or just kill it? Or just leave it alone for now?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 22, 2012, 04:56:50 am
Opening at least one of the axes to Two Swords WILL allow for maximum hilarity. Hilarity i'm already hoping for.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 25, 2012, 08:44:37 am
(So this is something that occurred to me while recording one of Wiz's matches....)

If this the part of the problem with Insult is that Berserk has infinite duration, then can't that just be solved by giving Berserk finite duration? I know this seems like a "well, duh" solution, especially since that "well, duh" seems to have the added "but obviously if it were that easy to just generate CT for statuses, we'd have done by now", but bare with me.

I was asking this because it was reminded that Reflect's CT in ARENA is currently 0 and thus effectively unused. This means that "we" could just use Reflect originally finite and thus existent CT for Berserk, doesn't it?

Of course, the other reason that I ask in this particular is because even if that's the case, and "we" change to be finite, that seems like it instantly screws over Salty Rage (and, to a lesser degree, Genji Helm). This seems like it would happen unless Berserk's new CT is made so pointlessly lengthy as for there to be no point in making the CT change.

So, yeah, a bit of a "dilemma" there, though I'd argue that Berserk getting a CT takes a lot more priority over a currently still-crappy Accessory that's pretty much pointless to use. That Spellguns are still outpacing Stone Gun now even when Berserk due to the ease of Pilgrimage + Strengthen seems only to add to this.

(For what it's worth, Insult probably could stand to hit a bit less though; I'd argue that Blind Rage could stand to hit a bit more though.)

****

Other things I've noticed is that Mage Masher seems to be procing 100% of the time and, unless I have even worse luck than usual when it comes to fighting Dokurider, so does Night Killer.

There is also some seem issues with Projectile Guard and with Berserk still canceling Abandon despite that technically being a Reaction, but I'll put that in annotations whenever (or if ever) I get things up to Youtube.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on December 25, 2012, 03:10:57 pm
The thing about Tsumazuku is that it doesn't fit the Ninja class at all, in that it's a 1 range skill that lacks Two Sword capability. Even if the AI used it, it wouldn't be all that great anyways, even with it's SP*WP formula, because it's just completely overshadowed by Hawk's Eye.

I could keep trying to delve into the triggers of Tsumazuku, because I remember the AI actually used it once, but I don't think it's all that worth the effort. I think the reason it won't use Tsumazuku is that it will only use it when someone's turn about to come up because it's trying to maximize it's -25 CT proc. It's not an damage issue, because I ran a Sasuke Knife Thief with max speed and 40 brave, leaving Tsumazuku the only source of damage it had, and it still refused to use it.

So my suggestion is to get rid of it's current proc and give it 3-5 range. You could make it proc Don't Act or Blind, but those are probably too much. Or just scrap the whole thing and change it entirely.

Night Killer is working just fine. The RNG is just screwing with you. And Abandon doesn't work when berserk because you can't evade while berserked in the first place. 1.5 * 0 = 0.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 25, 2012, 03:27:02 pm
I''d rather turn the Ninja class into a debuffing unit.  Give them a 0 CT ranged or self-targeting AoE skill that does damage and cancels Regen and/or Haste at 100% efficiency.  An AoE skill that cancels either of these buffs can be used well against Masamune since Masamune users can only buff one other unit at a time and need to bunch up to do so.  The skill would be less effective against the Haste and Regen skills, since these skills can be cast at a range and have a wider AoE.  Thematically, the skill could be depicted as an "explosive tag," such as the ones seen in Naruto.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 25, 2012, 04:09:16 pm
(Hmmm...sounds like we could combine those two things, especially if Tsumazuku's sound effect.)

All I know is that I'm really tired of there being nothing that can screw over Masamune on more than one unit, which then gets applied promptly and instantly at 100%.

Perhaps I'm even more biased than normal because I'm really tired of Masamune (and Kiyomori), especially sound effect-wise, what with having been doing video stuff for the past six hours straight.

So, yeah, let us kill the fuck out of Tsumazuku and replace it with something the AI will actually use, even if the name remains the same since it means "to stumble" anyway.

Quote from: Dokurider on December 25, 2012, 03:10:57 pmNight Killer is working just fine. The RNG is just screwing with you. And Abandon doesn't work when berserk because you can't evade while berserked in the first place. 1.5 * 0 = 0.


Oh right. Well, good to be reminded about Berserk & evasion and good to confirm that my luck is just that crap, especially since it tends to be the Archer with Projectile Guard that keeps getting arrow'd and blinded in the face.

*goes back to trying to do one more video*

*doesn't look forward doing to annotations for videos that have more than 30+ mins*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on December 25, 2012, 04:12:19 pm
Well, you wanted to do it all in one go. You only have yourself to blame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 25, 2012, 04:21:16 pm
(Yeah, I have only myself to blame.

Oh, this isn't all of it. Hardly. It's just Wiz's videos and then editing things because as much of a bum as I am, I'm still a perfectionist "at heart".

....

To keep this relevant to the patch itself, something I was ideally wondering in Domie's match with the aforementioned: Would Ice Brand be better if it's WP was slightly lowered, but it got (at least) +1 MA and the chance to cast Ice 3 2 was improved? Because right now, it seems pretty damn worthless on Paladins, especially given their other options.

*cough*Chaos Blade*cough*

Not that every weapon a class gets has to be tailor-made for it, especially since Paladin actually has a selection of weapons unlike some classes, such as Wizard or Time Mage (or Monk, technically). Similarly, it's not that I've ever believed it's an entirely a bad weapon, as will be attested by the first match I'll post in...some hours. It's just that what it does is rather counter to Paladin's have crap MA and usually Faith, so even if the Ice 2 aspect goes off at all, it ends up doing crap damage in most instances (if it even hits).

Shrug. Just a thought and definitely one of the things that would take the least priority in all the changes that have been flying around with regards to 138d going on 139.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 25, 2012, 08:12:03 pm
(I hate to double post, especially only hours apart, but I'll completely forget about this otherwise.)

Fuck (dual) Phoenix Blade. Not what this post is about, but I feel I have to that off my chest after just blundering in another match with those...abominations, that I probably can't even post after the match dragged for almost an hour due to audio issues. Hurray.

Anyway, what this post is about me noticing that Wizard, much like Time Mage, is horribly outclassed at present in the stat department. As Mediator outclasses Time Mage, Scholar outclasses Wizard. This is unsurprising given that Scholar is frankly becoming or already has become the magickal equivalent of early ARENA Paladin, in that they were a bit too good at their side of the physical-magickal split.

While Black Magic(k) including maybe even Death surprisingly is actually usable now due to the change, there's almost no reason to use Wizard as your primary class over Scholar when it comes to Black Magick unless you need Fire element absorption & (actual) revival; even then, that Scholars can just use Summon Magick for that Scholar can use Summon Magick for most of that is why I specific absorption.

(Unfortunately, I'm excluding Poison from "usable" Black Magick due to all the Masamune & Nurse running around. That and partly because it's still inferior to Bio & Hawk's Eye and even Kiyomori among other things.)

By themselves, Scholars hit all the other Wizard elements even with the new (and need) addition of the Water series & Maelstrom. Even if those counterparts are lesser in power, Scholar has them in forms that aren't subject to M-EV and hit everyone instantly. This by itself would be fine, however, given the power difference.

The real trouble comes the other things Scholar has (gotten). Scholar doesn't have to worry about Reflect at present. It gets a form of Reraise. It has access to Wind and Earth & Dark elements, with Wind & Earth being extremely quick and having AoE 2. It  even has access to damaging forms of Poison & Frog and the best equipment selection among mages.

Meanwhile, all Wizard gets that superior to Scholar is a bit of MP more.

Yeah...Wizard needs something just like Time Mage does and, "unfortunately", sans maybe getting rid of Poison or Death to make room for other things despite just buffing Poison alongside most of the rest of Black Magic, there's nothing else that can be (reasonably) done on the Black Magic side. So it has to come from the stat side.

At present, the "best" solution seems like it would be to just give Wizard 1 more MA point and maybe a bit more HP or MP or something. However, the MA aspect isn't even that great a "solution" for me given that I really don't think Draw Out-bots need any extra help, especially when it comes to Murasame's instant healing. Still, it seems "better" than taking away a point of MA from the Scholar side, which I'd be otherwise fine with if it wouldn't tie it for stats with Samurai. Then again, I don't exactly see Samurai or Scholar outclassing one another any time soon since they barely compete aside from the "uses MA" thing, so maybe that would work better too.

Shrug. I just think something should be done if we're buffing Time Mage for essentially the same reasons stat-wise, especially when Mediator isn't as good as Scholar is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 25, 2012, 09:04:38 pm
Perhaps adding Innate:Magic Attack UP  to Wizards might make them usable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 25, 2012, 09:42:31 pm
(Sure, that would make them usable.)

It would also make them completely broken, especially if Overwhelm stacked on top of that, which it probably does.

*shudders*

Innates should really be the last solution to something, at least where humans that aren't Mimes are involved. I honestly think it's as simple as just giving Wizard one more MA, taking away an MA from Scholar or both.

Oh, and in case I forgot to mention it, since I'm still recording, something odd seems to be going on with Move-MP Up and Berserk. Yes, I remembered this time that it isn't supposed to work with Berserk at all. However, it seems like in one instance, it worked with Berserk only. Not sure what the hell was up with that. Maybe I'll catch the cause when, sigh, I do annotations for all of this....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on December 26, 2012, 12:08:22 am
Scholars need a stat reallocation/rebalancing anyways, as it's pretty much a hold over from 1.3 (which I've hated since day 1, when Voldemort slapped them in, for being Wizard+, like you said.). They don't need that high of MA to begin with. Instead, they need higher HP to capitalize on their equipment options. Or better speed to attack with Tornado/Quake/speedy Lores. What's the point of giving them Poles and Swords and all these options if they can't even survive melee combat to begin with?

No comment on Black Magic vs Lore except that I still don't think Death measures up as a spell, especially up against Flare.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on December 26, 2012, 03:40:24 am
Did you remember to add the hotpatches, Damned?

Ice Brand currently stands as the strongest Grand Cross. One of my unposted team involves a 280 damage Grand Crosser with Dragon Spirit using that very weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 26, 2012, 03:45:21 pm
(And my lazy ass returns to the land of consciousness more or less.)

And I still have no idea why the hell Camtasia suddenly won't let me record audio. Even searching on Google and their website has been less than helpful.

Whatever. I'll just record matches without game audio for now.

Quote from: Dokurider on December 26, 2012, 12:08:22 am
Scholars need a stat reallocation/rebalancing anyways, as it's pretty much a hold over from 1.3 (which I've hated since day 1, when Voldemort slapped them in, for being Wizard+, like you said.).


Oh, well that explains quite a bit really. I agree that Scholar and the patch as a whole would benefit from a stat reallocation, but I didn't think anyone would really agree to that, so I didn't say anything. I also didn't really have any ideas about what to change it to since I'm still horrible at stat stuff. (How surprising.)


Quote from: Dokurider on December 26, 2012, 12:08:22 am
They don't need that high of MA to begin with. Instead, they need higher HP to capitalize on their equipment options. Or better speed to attack with Tornado/Quake/speedy Lores. What's the point of giving them Poles and Swords and all these options if they can't even survive melee combat to begin with?


I can agree with their MA not needing to be that high and their HP could stand to be higher, especially if they're going to bother having the type of weapons they have (even if they get two "ranged" weapons). The speed part I'm ambivalent on outside of speeding up Priest and maybe slowing down Time Mage, though I must admit that formerdeathcorps's proposal to speed up Time Mages further to 10 Speed is...intriguing.


Quote from: Dokurider on December 26, 2012, 12:08:22 am
No comment on Black Magic vs Lore except that I still don't think Death measures up as a spell, especially up against Flare.


Oh, I never said that Death was good. I just said it was usable, at least if you have some luck.

*looks at Vigilanti*


This compared to Poison, where even if you get "lucky" with that spell, that just means at best you managed Poison your enemy's entire team without hitting your own. "Getting lucky" also means that said can't just Masamune, Nurse, Regen(erator), Heal, Stigma Magic, Esuna or heal it in whatever way that has a lot more chance of succeeding than Poison ever does. This on top of Poison belonging to the second "squishiest" unit, which means you're pretty much never going to tank anything unless you're using Black Magic as a secondary on a high HP unit...all of which has crap MA.

I mean, when was the last time you ever saw a Paladin use Black Magick?

Exactly.

Poison and Death actually have the same problem: they're too easily undone for the low chance of success and high risk, especially with Poison's damage being too slow for most Mages to take advantage of (especially Wizard) and Flare basically being an OHKO on most units that Death could maybe manage to hit anyway.

This also doesn't take into account the other disadvantages that the Poison spell has, namely being the only source of Poison aside from Kiyomori that doesn't also do damage and even Kiyomori does something besides add Poison. This is rather telling since Kiyomori, outside of Wiz's team, is basically still almost worthless, at least for the Poison aspect and because of the AI's idiotic obsession with it in the face of Masamune and the aforementioned ubiquitous Poison counters.

It also doesn't take into account my distaste for Poison (or Regen) lasting past death anyway since all that does is fuck over mages and the currently shitty Wish, neither of need(ed) yet another disadvantage. Yeah, it can occasionally screw over Phoenix Down as well, but that actually has range & 100% accuracy and any Poisoned unit with Item that gets revived can just Antidote or instantly Potion itself to not die again (by Poison anyway); even Squires can just Heal themselves, though it's a lot less likely for two non-Squire Basic Skill users to be on a team as opposed to two Item users.

This as opposed to mages, who have no chance to not die again from Poison unless they have Item or Draw Out (or Basic Skill or, improbably, either Chivalry or Punch Art) as a secondary since everything they can do (sans Dia) takes time that they don't have. Similarly, mages benefit less from Regen staying around after death since they just naturally have less HP, as it "should" be in most cases. Regen lasting after death also bugs me because of Masamune and Regen (and positive statuses) being a lot less likely to be dispelled than Poison and most negative statuses that aren't Undead or Berserk (or Oil).

...Yeah, I've not been a fan of Poison or Regen staying after death for somewhat opposing reasons obviously.


That said, I think I just had a realization about how to "fix" Death: Just make it add Undead as well as Dead and make sure that the Undead aspect takes before the Dead aspect gets added. (If it already doesn't; I keep forgetting if status order IDs being lower in number means they come earlier or latter.)

This way, if Death has to stay around, then at least with this change it isn't entirely obviated by literally any form of resurrection and isn't forced to have "I'm Raise 2's bitch" tattooed on its forehead. Similarly, it keeps Death as a way for Cursed Ring users, like Vigilanti, to maybe heal themselves.

As for "fixing" Poison, there's really nothing else that could be reasonably done to "buff" it given it just got an AoE buff. Given that everyone who bothered responding pre-138 shot down my proposal to just move it to Oracle (you know, one of the few mages that can actually "tank" since it has access to Defense UP in its primary and better HP) and give Wizard one of Yin-Yang Magic(k)'s spells in exchange, I have no idea what to do to help it.

And, right now, I don't really care anymore partly because of aforementioned "Poison-after-death" reason.


Quote from: Dokurider on December 26, 2012, 03:40:24 am
Did you remember to add the hotpatches, Damned?


...Fuck. I didn't because I'm idiot.

Dear Minerva, this means that at the very least I have to do Malroth vs. Reks again--two Phoenix Blades are so fun--since Reks could have totally won that second match after the gunner Weapon Broke the immobile Scholar has his Priest any MP. Great...this means I have to check the other matches too outside of the first one, which is thus far the only one to end under the 30 minute mark.

Fun times.


Quote from: Dokurider on December 26, 2012, 03:40:24 am
Ice Brand currently stands as the strongest Grand Cross. One of my unposted team involves a 280 damage Grand Crosser with Dragon Spirit using that very weapon.


Oh, yeah. I'm not saying that Ice Brand is worthless, especially with Grand Cross; the first match I recorded was AeroGP's "Snow Pirates" (as I had intended to do before he finally moved his post in the team submission thread). Both of the Grand Cross-using Squires on that team were hitting for 308, though I think compat. might have to do with that.

I just don't find Ice Brand all that threatening on Paladins because despite hitting hard still with Ice Brand, they can't use it with Grand Cross without sacrificing power. Similarly, unlike Squire (or Geomancer or literally any other Sword users, who all also get to wear Clothes), their own class doesn't come with any measures to get around Ice absorption or halving or nullification, which screwed DomieV over (again) when I recorded. So they either need a teammate with Oil (or Snipe) or they probably become useless as attackers against certain units unless they have Snipe or Punch Art.

As said, I'm not sure Ice Brand needs to become "better", I just think it sucks as a sword for actually attacking though unlike the current, admittedly broken, Air Knife, especially since Ice Brand's proc is underwhelming right now on the classes that actually use it. Maybe if Scholar actually had some HP and incentive to attack...though with their current stats, Ice Rod would still be better, so....

The currently best user of Ice Brand as an actual sword rather than as a Grand Cross MacGuffin is pretty much Bard...except that they have access to the still-overpowered Bloody Strings. Even among swords, unless maybe it's an Ice Absorb team, Ultima Weapon is better for them between Two Hands, its proc being 8% more likely to go off and its proc not taking Faith (or M-EV) into account.

So, yeah, as a Grand Cross and to a lesser extent Southern Cross MacGuffin, Ice Brand is great and has (the) power (of Greyskull). As an actual attacking sword, unless it's backed by Oil, Ice Brand is rather...lacking even when backed by Attack UP (or Overwhelm) or Strengthen; it pretty much needs to backed by two of those together to make a real "dent" as oppose to just overhand stabbing with Air Knife right now.

Ice Brand has these problems even though Jade Armlet remains among the least used accessories. And Ice Brand is only going to get worse if formerdeathcorps's reasonable suggestion to make Defense Ring null Ice instead of absorb Water and thus give Water absorption to Jade (or Coral) Armlet is heeded.

(As an aside, I'm not sure what can be done to make Defense Armlet see more use, especially since basically it's only "use" at present is to allow Grand Cross Ice Brand users with Ice Shield to not get burned up.)

Shrug. I just think Ice Brand could be better for actually attacking where Chivalry isn't involved is all, even if swords as a whole probably didn't need some of the buffs they got.

*looks at Phoenix Blade's increasingly dubious existence*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 26, 2012, 05:42:30 pm
Dear god you diddn't try to record a match with my joke team did you?  You poor poor man.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 26, 2012, 05:55:53 pm
(Hey, I asked you if I wanted something recorded.)

And it wasn't exactly a joke team since it won or, rather, it wouldn't die...for almost an hour over just two matches. I cut it short after Reks's was left with just one Archer both times since goddamn Auto Potion made it pointless to wait just as with Raven's match vs. Wiz.

Speaking of which, you actually gave me the older versions of Wiz's Team, so...I couldn't use that match, hence trying to record...that.

At the very least, I should be able to get you and Gaignun recorded by today though again, I'm still having audio issues.

*decides to try and think of something to say that is actually relevant to thread topic*

Uh...I still say that Wizard Staff can afford to become not +2 MA even if that "deprives" Priests of having +2 MA on something they can actually attack with for good damage. Considering C Bag exists and I'm not sure why the hell Priests, as healers, should be getting need to be able to brain people so easily with that particular Stave, it seems a small and more than acceptable loss given what I proposed for it. Making Healing Staff more usable (with Two Swords) and making Wizard Staff not a carbon copy of Wizard Rod seem far more important, especially since it's only really Priest that (unnecessarily) benefits from Wizard Staff as it is now anyway. [/covering huge ass]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 01, 2013, 06:23:43 pm
I've been thinking about Time Mages.  If we really (and I mean really) want to buff them, how about we keep their stats poor, but let them equip shields?  Then we'd let the player choose which stat gets boosted (ie. +1 MA from Aegis Shield, +1 SP from Zephyr Shield, +2-3 MA for elemental offense from Kaiser Plate - a Time Mage with Kaiser Plate and Magic Attack UP would be a formidable Black Magick user, although no more so than, say, a Geomancer, which is fine since both would have minimal recovery options).  We wouldn't even need to worry about buffing Haste over Masamune: the utility a shield provides will attract players to Time Mages, whereupon they'll make use of Haste whether it is inferior to Masamune or not.  This, in my opinion, is the best way to buff skills: promote new synergies while leaving currently popular formulas alone. That said, Haste still needs a buff to its constant (from 60 to 70-80), which I believe was brought up already.  The only build this change wouldn't promote is dual-wielding staves - a small price.

Time Mages will become the only mage class that can cover high Faith with M-EV.  I guarantee that Time Mages will see a lot more use for this very reason, poor base stats be damned.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 01, 2013, 11:32:42 pm
(The Damned takes a break from Youtube still giving a headache to give everyone else a headache, partly because he's such a giving person like that.)

Hmmm...giving Shields to Time Mages. I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't thought about it with as much as mages and Time Mages in particular have come up as late.

That said, at present, I can't really get behind that change. Certainly, it's interesting, perhaps even more than formerdeathcorps's 10 Speed proposal. Giving them Shields "just" so that they can be the only mage class that can cover high Faith with M-EV seems like overkill that isn't addressing the problem however. This especially when you realize how "slow" Time Mage's spells are and how that M-EV still isn't going to mean much if they get stuck charging. This is even more likely to occur now with Short Charge not being in Time Mage anymore; I'm really not sure when that happened.

(It doesn't exactly help that Wizards can fill a pseudo version of what you want already considering they no longer need high-Faith to mess people up despite still being inferior to Scholars in almost every way.)

If "we" are going to give a mage class access to shields, then I think it should be more for reasons that are more than  "high Faith with M-EV" since as valid a reason as that is,  mantles do exist and have been improved; similarly, Genji Gauntlet looks like it's going to continue to exist, so....

As such, I feel there are three things that we must consider, though only one of them is unique to mages:


1. Whether the class has some Primary abilities that would be able to take advantage of two more Shields than just Aegis Shield, which all mages benefit from: Time Mage fails here, not really benefiting from any shield save Aegis Shield without dipping into a Secondary. In a small bit of hindsight, I suppose it does benefit from Zephyr/Venetian Shield as well to get to 10 Speed, but that's really not "enough", especially when it can already get that from H Bag or Thief Hat or "even" Secret Clothes or Sprint Shoes.

2. Whether the class has equipment options that would benefit from shields: Time Mage fails here as well. Hard. If they're going to be still suck with only Staves & Bags, then there's really no reason for them to have Shields since part of the reason to have those is to encourage physical attacking on the class as a whole. Since Bags are unlikely to get buffed in terms of WP--they don't need it to--and of the three Staves people have agreed on--Gold Staff, Healing Staff & Mace of Zeus--only Gold Staff is worth attacking with...yeah. This is valid despite most mages not being "meant" to attack because a) it's a consideration that obviously went into all other shield-bearing classes and b) we all know that the AI will attack at some of weirdest and dumbest times, even with a Bag, unless you have a weapon that can heal the opponent.

3. Whether the class has "enough" spells (read: at least half of their spells) that are "quick enough" (read: > or = CT 3) with Short Charge for any evasion granted by a shield to matter so as not to be caught mid-charge: Time Mage actually passes here despite what I was initially thinking as I thought about your post while on the way to an errand about an hour. It actually succeeds the most here. It just has a problem getting mid-charged due to being stuck at 9 Speed right now and having to pay an additional 250 JP for Short Charge now.


IMO (not that I should have to say that), if we assume that a (mage) class has to pass at least two of these to really "deserve" a Shield, then Time Mage obviously isn't it. Let's look at the other mage classes; assume that Aegis Shield applies for all instances of 1:


1. Wizard: Passes 1 due to elemental shields that aren't Mythril Shield & Kaiser Plate. Passes 2 despite being stuck with only Rods in bags because Rods are actually quite threatening to attack with now that they are go off of MA. Passes 3 by having 9 such spells. Overall: Pass.

2. Priest: Fails 1 since it doesn't benefit from anything but Aegis Shield with White Magick as a whole, not even Genji Shield since Flails go strictly off WP. Fails 2 much for the same reason despite Flails being great attack options. Passes 3 by having 10 such spells, including the still instant Dia. Overall: Fail. (Not really a loss given that Priest frankly has enough good crap as it is if we're considering nerfing it to buff Time Mage anyway.)

3. Summoner: Fails 1 because the only other Shield it benefits from is Kaiser Plate and even then that's only 4 of its spells, though 3 of those are unavoidable; Genji Shield doesn't really count even if Books PA just because Summoner PA is such crap. Passes 2 for much the same reason that Wizard does, even if it's even squishier than Wizard. Fails 3, but only surprisingly barely since 7 of its 15 spells pass. Overall: Fail.

4. Oracle: Arguably passes 1 because it benefits from Kaiser Plate due to having access to Rods; it benefits from Zephyr/Venetian Shield due to having having the most CT 1 Spells of any mage & arguably the best equipment vs. its other stats (at present); it even potentially benefits from Genji Shield since, unlike Summoner, it has Oracle decent PA, especially for a mage, and access to Books. Passes 2 for the same reason that Summoner does, except has better to having HP and access to Poles. Passes 3 because the only spells slower are Sleep (poor, poor Sleep), Beguile and Petrify. Overall: Pass.

5. Scholar: Passes 1 for benefiting Kaiser Plate, all elemental Shields save Flame Shield and even Genji Shield. Passes 2 due to having the most diverse access to weapons of among mages, getting Swords and the "rare" Poles alongside Staves, Rods & less rare Books. Actually fails 3 because the only speedy spells it actually has are Bio, Tornado, Quake and, right on the edge, Bio 2; this while 4 obviously isn't half of 11. Overall: Pass.


So going by that, this means we can split mages down the middle:


1. Mages that "deserve" Shields: Wizards, Oracles or Scholars.
2. Mages that don't "deserve" Shields: Priests, Summoners or Time Mages.


So...yeah. Maybe if "we" were decided on what Time Mage's Speed was going to be going in 139 as well as Staves "should" be in the coming version I could get behind it, but as Time Mage is now, its crappy stats really need a buff. This especially if spell-guns don't die considering Time Mage are directly in competition with Mediators.


TL;DR: Shields aren't going to do much more for Time Mage that mantles are. If anything, Oracles or Scholars or Wizards "should" get Shields before they ever naturally touch Time Mage's spindly wrist (unless, of course, you're giving Shields to everyone.)

Also, spellguns should probably die, but that's another topic of long-winded discussion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 01:49:32 am
I think you're overanalysing it.  Everyone benefits from shields.  I put shields on an oracle and chemist in season one despite one being white magick support and the other being a gunner simply because I wanted the M-EV and elemental boosting.  I propose to give shields to Time Mages because they are the one mage class most sorely in need of these benefits.

QuoteIf "we" are going to give a mage class access to shields, then I think it should be more for reasons that are more than  "high Faith with M-EV" since as valid a reason as that is, mantles do exist and have been improved; similarly, Genji Gauntlet looks like it's going to continue to exist, so....


I don't see how this detracts from the proposal.  Making shields innate opens Time Mages to plenty more equipment options.  By equipping shields, their accessory slot is freed up for something else, like status resistance or stat boosting.  Everyone has access to mantles, so why aren't we pulling shields away from everybody?  I expect you answer this with my next quote, which I will summarise.

QuoteClasses with access to shields must:
1) be able to use all (or most) equally well
2) be able to pair them with weapons for melee combat
3) must not have skills in their primary skill set with long (3+) CT


First of all, I appreciate your effort in qualifying which classes are worthy of shields.  I thought I'd share my own philosophy about shields by going through these qualifiers one by one.

1. The class must be able to use all (or most) shields equally well

I argue that all classes can use all shields equally well.  The elemental resistance from Gold Shield, Platina Shield, and so on are universally applicable.  P-EV and M-EV are also universally applicable.  Granted, some - particularly Aegis Shield - will be more attractive to Time Mages than others, but that speaks more about the shields than their user.  Aegis Shield is popular with Geomancers for Draw Out and Geomancy because it gives an MA boost.  This doesn't mean we should pull shields from every class that stacks MA.  Similarly, Paladins can't use the absorption shields effectively because they have a hard time covering for the shields' attendant weaknesses.  In fact, Time Mages can use these shields better than Paladins because Time Mages have access to clothing.  This isn't grounds for pulling shields from Paladins.

In the end, the purpose the shield is put toward depends entirely on the player.  A player can put a Gold Shield on a Time Mage and cover the attendant Earth weakness with Earth Clothes just as well as the player can put an Aegis Shield on a Time Mage for an MA boost.  (Ice Shield, Black Costume, and Mace of Zeus is a solid counter to magic guns, by the way.  Face a Glacier gunner that tries to get around ice absorption, which is typically from Santa Outfits, with Armor Break and he'll be SOL.  That's a better reason to consider equipping an Ice Shield than there's ever been!)  There are as many possibilities as there are shields.

2. The class must be able to pair them with weapons for melee combat

I hope I'm not twisting the meaning of your second qualifier with this summary, but this is what I gathered when I read your statement about pairing shields with weapons for physical combat.  To be honest, I don't even know what to make of this qualifier.  Personally, I never saw the purpose of shields as being to assist melee combat.  Weapons assist melee combat.  This is, unless, you mean that shields are meant to cover the high Brave values that melee classes traditionally have, in which case I'd say that you are subjecting shields to a personal imposition.  Shields are equally worthy for covering high Faith values, as well.  They have M-EV for a reason, after all.

A shield is simply meant to keep its user alive.  Whether the player plans for this user to engage in melee combat is his or her prerogative.  Magic attacks hit from afar.  Avoiding melee combat does not keep units out of harm's way, so the shield is still going to see use on a Time Mage.

3. The class must not have skills in their primary skill set with long (3+) CT

This is your most valid qualifier.  Indeed, there will be times when a Time Mage toting a shield will be mid-charged.  This speaks only to the shield's P-EV and M-EV, though.  Like I said in my previous post, the shield serves a second purpose: boosting the Time Mage's lousy stats (or, alternatively, providing some elemental resistance).  Stat boosts and elemental resistances apply whether the Time Mage is mid-charged or not.  If the player is especially worried about being mid-charged, then he or she can give the Time Mage Short Charge, as always.  However, might I inform you that, if you equip a Time Mage with Zephyr Shield or Thief Hat, then, on the first turn of battle, all spells with 3 or fewer CT (lower tier Time Magick and Black Magick, most of the useful Yin Yang Magick, et cetera) will finish casting before 8 SP units get their first turn.  With Short Charge, all spells with (I think) 5 or fewer CT will do the same.  Alternatively, we can just reduce Time Mage's SP to 8 so players can make their Time Mages hug the bottom of the AT list.  This is actually what I suggested from the beginning.

Regardless, Time Mages will exploit their shield's P-EV and M-EV more often than you think.  Unless the Time Mage and every single opponent share the same SP, and that Time Mage is in the first unit position, the shield will invariably help keep the Time Mage alive.

In the end, Time Mages are no better off if we continue to deprive them of shields.  Think of the current Time Mage as getting mid-charged and losing out of the shield's evasion 100% of the time, because the shield is not there to begin with!

While other mage classes might indeed be more worthy of shields according to your qualifiers, I do not propose these classes get them because they are strong enough as it is.  For example, giving Wizards access to both Kaiser Plate and Magic Attack UP would be plain broken without an accompanying nerf to their base MA.  Giving Time Mages shields will not upset the balance so.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 02, 2013, 12:16:11 pm
(Oh, I actually have no intentions of giving present Wizards shields for the reason you get at since Kaiser Plate and Magick Attack UP would be...Overwhelming. I'd much rather they go to Time Mage before they ever go to present Wizard, even if present Wizard is a worse present Scholar.

I mean, I'm not against Time Mages maybe getting access to Shields ever. I'm just not...for it at present, especially if it's in lieu of fixing their stats. If Shields are to go to any mage in 139, then I'd rather they go to Oracle or a "nerfed"/differently statted Scholar before they go to Time Mage is all.)

That said, yes, of course Shields are useful to all classes because "duh." My argument was never "Time Mages in no way benefit from Shields". It was (and still is) "Time Mages only really benefit from two Shields--Aegis Shield & Zephyr Shield--without having to dip into specific secondaries".

Are "we" going to start giving things to (lesser) classes in lieu of trying to fix actual problems because just a few items in that category would benefit the class? If that's the case, then why not give Bards innate access to Bows so that Holy Bow could finally see some use? Better yet, why not give all Mages (or, hell, everyone) innate access to Armor if Hats other than Flash Hat are finally going to get more MP? Especially when everyone has trouble with status? Same with giving everyone Clothes. Everyone benefits from elemental absorption, right?

The reason that I thought everyone wasn't given Shields while everyone had access to Mantles was because a) everyone having access to Shields would end up weakening anything with M-EV even more, which is bad when most of that is the already still-troubled Faith-based magick and b) the buff to Blind alongside Defending still being as it was. Concentrate being back is the only reason that things blocked by P-EV also wouldn't get screwed over as badly by everyone suddenly getting access to shields.  This is to say nothing of some classes' initial C-EV as it is.

*looks at Thief*

I obviously don't have such a huge problem with everyone potentially getting access to Shields, what with considering to currently do it in Embargo at present. To me, though, that necessitates such a large work around just in terms of magick and classes as to not really be feasible in ARENA; hell, it might not even be feasible in Embargo, to say nothing of Equip Shield becoming completely obviated.

As for why Paladins "should" have Shields if they access to Mantles as well, it's because a) they're meant to be defensive tanks and b) they have no class evasion anymore to make up for having access to both. Remember when they had just decent evasion, barely more HP than they have now and access to both Shields & worse Mantles? When they still pretty much beat the shit of everyone else despite having a crappy skill set aside from Grand Cross before Blind was buffed? Yeah.

As for the other classes that have Shields, well Squires & Geomancers have Shields to make them more enticing due to their jack-of-all trade stats, Lancers are offensive tanks that evade with both Shields & Range 2 weapons & Jump and Samurai would probably have Shields if they didn't have Innate: Two Hand/Doublehand. As for Archers, well, to be frank, I've said many times that I'm not comfortable with them having innate access to Shields or, at the very least, Guns being usable with Shields. No one has ever agreed with me on that, though, and I'm so very tired of arguing it especially with so many other things being worthy of focus at present.

In terms of balance, stats of course balance out shield access, which is part of the reason why I can't currently get behind your proposal: not only does it throw any stat "changes" to Time Mage into further chaos by adding in another option--"Leave Time Mage's stats as they are and just give them Shields"--but also doesn't solve the underlying problem of said stats...you know, being horrible. Or, at least, being the exact same as Mediator and then blown away in terms of HP. Time Mages don't really have jack-of-all-trade stats, much less good ones at present.


(As an aside, I will grant that a Glacier Gunner can't get past your set-up...easily. This is of course assuming that he doesn't have Shield Break [instead of Armor Break] or just have friends with Oil [or with Shield Break/Weapon Break/Armor Break]. Unless you're going to tell me that this already too-specialized, only-two-of set-up [that currently screws over the Time Mage's MP] also necessitates wearing Diamond Armlet or 108 Gems, which block Oil but leaves the user vulnerable to Silence now as well, or using Maintenance as a Support or both.

Basically you're telling me that spellguns aren't a problem just because some obscure set-up that drastically cuts down your actual options and can only be used as a two-of exists and might beat it. This despite the fact that said Gunners can just Hawk's Eye your face off, Oil you up and paddle you that way.

...Yeah. You might as just say "hey, Spellguns aren't a problem so long as you make every team you have two units with Projectile Guard and two Time Mages with either Black Magick or Summon Magick." Sounds fun. Spellguns either need to die or turn into "Nether" Spellguns so they don't get powered up by just walking around since obviously lowering their WP and making them consistent didn't do jack.)


I'll end this by concisely answering your criteria commentary:


1. You're underestimating Paladins use of accessories here, again. That's all I'm going to say, especially since Grand Cross is instant unlike literally almost every other self-elemental-absorb healing.

2. Of course it's a personal imposition. I'm just bringing up melee synergy because the AI pretty much always charges forward unless a) it's in Critical & not the last unit or b) it can't move for some reason or c) it has Teleport as its movement. Yeah....

3. I am aware of that. Countdown in the SCC tournament is literally using this very fact which is why he has 11 Speed and Short Charge Stop, which means the cutoff with Short Charge is 6 CT. So...yeah, that's why the cut off was 3 CT in the first place. Way ahead of you there, especially since I went back and admitted before I even posted that Zephyr Shield would benefit Time Mages even if we left them at their horrible speed; I just said that Zephyr Shield wasn't enough of a reason along Aegis Shield for Time Mages' stats to be left as they are.


Don't get me wrong (again, please). Your proposal has merits and isn't utterly horrible or anything. I just don't agree with it at present for the (long-winded) reasons above. That's it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on January 02, 2013, 01:35:31 pm
Quote from: The DamnedThat said, yes, of course Shields are useful to all classes because "duh." My argument was never "Time Mages in no way benefit from Shields". It was (and still is) "Time Mages only really benefit from two Shields--Aegis Shield & Genji Shield--without having to dip into specific secondaries".


Quote from: GaignunI argue that all classes can use all shields equally well.  The elemental resistance from Gold Shield, Platina Shield, and so on are universally applicable.  P-EV and M-EV are also universally applicable.
Like I said in my previous post, the shield serves a second purpose: boosting the Time Mage's lousy stats (or, alternatively, providing some elemental resistance).  Stat boosts and elemental resistances apply whether the Time Mage is mid-charged or not.
In the end, the purpose the shield is put toward depends entirely on the player.


I'm now going to go through a list of the non-Aegis, Genji, and Zephyr shields and see which ones require a secondary to take full advantage of.

Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV/20 M-EV, Absorb Earth Weak Lightning - no secondary needed
Gold Shield: the compliment to Mythril Shield, also no secondary needed
Ice and Flame Shields: Similar to above, just with Fire/Ice Absorb/Weak, so no secondary needed here
Diamond Shield: 5 P-EV/25 M-EV, Null Earth and Holy - no secondary required
Platina Shield: 25/5, Null Wind and Water - no secondary needed
Crystal Shield: 20/20, Neutral: All - no secondary needed
Kaiser Plate: 15/20, Strengthen Fire Ice Lightning - yes secondary needed
Escutcheon II: 25/25, no secondary needed

So uh, only one shield needs a secondary to be extra effective.
Also, I think Genji Shield is a rather poor choice for a Time Mage. Genji Shield has very meh evasion, and the main reason to use it, the +1 PA, does not benefit Time Mages. The Cancel: Dead (and by extension, Death Sentence (I think?)) part is nice, but it's not very common. Death Sentence, Secret Fist, Throwing Knife and Odin IIRC are the only ways to inflict Dead/Death Sentence. Oh and Death, which apparently requires the target to be susceptible to Dead.

Quote from: The DamnedAs for why Paladins "should" have Shields if they access to Mantles as well, it's because a) they're meant to be defensive tanks and b) they have no class evasion anymore to make up for having access to both. Remember when they had just decent evasion, barely more HP than I had now and access to both Shields & Mantles? When they still pretty much beat the shit of everyone else despite having a crappy skill set aside from Grand Cross before Blind was buffed? Yeah.


They were only able to 'beat the shit out of everyone' more because of their stats than anything - they had 12 PA at the time. That's 2 PA more than they have now. That's actually relevant, since before you could give them Attack UP and they'd already be at an effective 16 PA, so you could give them non-stat boosting armor, knowing they would do solid damage.
I'm pretty sure Paladins lost their C-EV (which was only like 5 or 10% at the time, anyway) because it was a small and simple nerf that wouldn't change things too much, and it was part of the main nerf package of adjusting their stats in the first place. If it was due to them having access to Shields and Mantles, then most likely Abandon was the problem, as Abandon was 2x evade for a time.
Now that Paladins do occupy a more defensive role, I think it would be ok to give them some C-EV, just 5 or 10%. Remember, C-EV only applies to physical attacks coming from the front (unless you use Awareness). Chances are good that a unit will face a few physical attacks from the front, but it's usually inconsequential, as units also have innate Weapon Guard (which also may or may not be fairly inconsequential). If there's a significantly higher chance to miss, it's likely due to Shields and/or Mantles and/or Main Gauche than it is C-EV. I think Thief C-EV is fine for said reason - they have access to Main Gauche for a really slippery unit, and Concentrate and Hidden Knife are around to counter.

Also, as a fun sidenote, the spellguns are actually working as intended. The changes were meant to encourage people to shoot things with it, instead of comboing them with other skills due to their formerly absurd WP. Their WP was that high to begin with to make the average damage from a spellgun shot reasonable, since 60% of the time it would fire off a tier 1 spell.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 02, 2013, 04:30:37 pm
(*yawns*

Damn. I actually fell asleep.)

The Genji Shield thing was a typo, hence why I fixed to say Zephyr Shield in italics well before you replied.

Quote from: CT5Holy on January 02, 2013, 01:35:31 pm
I'm now going to go through a list of the non-Aegis, Genji, and Zephyr shields and see which ones require a secondary to take full advantage of.

*snip*


By saying "take advantage" of, I meant two things that we seem to be disagreeing on:


1. The unit has to not get often stuck mid-charging so to be able to take actually take advantage of the evasion: This is my greater problem with giving Time Mage's shields, especially since I'm pretty much the only other person besides maybe Gaignun to comment on formerdeathcorps's 10 Speed proposal. Giving Shields to only 9 Speed class that constantly needs to charge isn't going to fix said class's shit HP and awkward Speed, among other things.

2. The unit has to be able to take advantage of the secondary effect of the shield if left on its own regardless of its Secondary: Not really sure what's difficult to understand about this, especially since it's the reason that I've not mentioned Escutcheon II so far despite its significant evasion that anyone can take advantage of (as long as they aren't Charging or Performing).

Let's look through the other shields you brought up:


1. Mythril Shield: The easiest of elemental shields for Time Mage to cover the absorption of between Rainbow Staff and Mace of Zeus. Too bad Time Mage doesn't have any Earth element spells to take advantage of that without dipping into Lore. Similarly, this shield has to compete Float if used on a team that isn't focused on Earth absorption or a Time Mage with Lore.

2. Gold Shield: This is also "easy" for Time Mage to cover the weakness of between Rainbow Staff and the aforementioned Float. Even if you're overly paranoid about Float not blocking Kikuichimoji (the sword) or Giant Axe, Earth Clothes is literally the only piece of clothing at present to give the user some MP anyway. Too bad there's literally no reason for a Time Mage to ever use it unless you've managed to hit the 2-of limit for Mace of Zeus since Gold Shield is so inferior to the current Mace of Zeus as to be laughable. And given that Mace of Zeus is one of the two usable Staves as it is and Time Mage's only weapon options are between basically it and Bags for potential offense (since part of Healing Staff's use is that the AI won't ever attack the enemy unless Berserk)...yeah....

3. Ice Shield: Rainbow Staff works here too of course. Baring Gaignun's "nifty" anti-spell-gun set-up (that still loses to spell-gun), there's no reason to use this without a secondary or the usual team absorb support (which can be replicated by anyone).

4. Flame Shield: See above, except switch in a Santa Outfit for the Black Costume in Gaignun's set-up; excuse me if I still remain doubtful about the effectiveness of that.

5. Diamond Shield: Might as well just be "block: Holy" to Time Mage since it naturally gets access to Float. Granted, often a Time Mage will be using Move-MP Up, but personally, there's no reason I'd ever use Diamond Shield on a Time Mage over Aegis Shield or even just Platina Shield, especially when Small Mantle has better M-EV than Vanish Mantle anyway. So...yeah. Next.

6. Platina Shield: Easily one of the more usable shields with Time Mage (and just Time Mage's primary, remember), though that's not saying much really at present, even in the sense of freeing them up to use a Stave that isn't Rainbow Staff or Mace of Zeus. Still, I will grant you that it can be effective for Time Mage, especially with Time Mage's innate access to Float making this a "better" version of Thief Hat (minus that actually somewhat fixing Time Mage's currently awkward as hell Speed).

7. Crystal Shield: I honestly forgot this thing exists because it sucks so damn hard and Time Mages already have access to Rainbow Staff, which I will admit would have more of a use if got access to Shields. (Not that it doesn't have use right now what with Squires being able to equip both and you don't exactly see Rainbow Staff ever used much there despite Squire MA being only a point less than Time Mage's.) Seriously, there's no reason to ever talk about this unless "we" are going to talk about how we're going to change it, especially since the whole "elemental neutral accessory" idea seems to have gone by the wayside and no one, myself included, brought up a way to "fix"/replace this damn thing.


And then we already talked about Kaiser Plate (needs Black Magick, which even you agree with), Genji Shield (was a typo on my part) and Escutcheon II (good, so it has no secondary, meaning everyone uses it more or less equally well, though obviously classes with more C-EV benefit more).

So...yeah. Still not terribly convinced.


Quote from: CT5Holy on January 02, 2013, 01:35:31 pm*Paladin stuff and Thief C-EV snip*


First and foremost, I don't have a problem with Thief C-EV, especially with Abandon being nerfed as it is. Thief C-EV is a bit of the reason that I think that Defending also needs to be "nerfed" in terms of it still boosting evasion by twice the amount, but that's basically the extent of my "problem" with Thief. I only mentioned it because they really don't need the extra P-EV in addition to Main Gauche, Awareness and all that, which is why it was a counterexample of why we don't just give Shields to everyone.

As for the Paladin stuff, I admittedly somewhat forgot Paladin's PA at the time being slightly higher, which indeed is a factor. Similarly, I can't remember if the C-EV thing was before or after Excalibur and Abandon got nerfed. I don't recall Abandon being much of the reason for that nerf though, especially since I explicitly remember quite a few people griping about Paladin having any measure of C-EV with their level of power even after the PA drop I think. (It's not exactly like Paladins hit like kittens with "only" 10 PA after all.)

You want to propose that Paladins get some C-EV back to FFMaster? Sure, go ahead. I don't have an opinion about it one way or the other at present.


Quote from: CT5Holy on January 02, 2013, 01:35:31 pmAlso, as a fun sidenote, the spellguns are actually working as intended. The changes were meant to encourage people to shoot things with it, instead of comboing them with other skills due to their formerly absurd WP. Their WP was that high to begin with to make the average damage from a spellgun shot reasonable, since 60% of the time it would fire off a tier 1 spell.


I don't recall saying that I didn't understand why their WP was that high to begin with or that they shouldn't be ultimately consistent or even that I don't think they're working as "intended".

I just find it immensely dumb if "working as intended" basically means "if you're any type of mage, bring White Robe and Magic Defend Up or Projectile Guard to avoid getting 2HKO at Worst and sent into Critical with one shot"; this basically translates into "you can never have a team with more 2 mages unless you want to get stuck in a losing 'rez loop' off the bat."

Similarly, I find it dumb that "working as intended" means they still hit at 100% accuracy outside of the Projectile Guard fix, basically obviate attack mages in terms of damage except in the area of AoE and (Faith) Flare & Holy and get powered up just by moving around. At least before you needed to sacrifice your reaction for (the extremely generous in firing) Faith UP and get "hit" (or Cured) if you wanted to do that. Now basically their damage spikes are inevitable due to Pilgrimage unless they get Don't Moved, which is pretty much meaningless against them given their Range 6.

So, yeah, they can be "working as intended" all they want, but I'm not going to act like they're magically fine just because Grand Cross isn't being thoroughly abused with them anymore. If you want to "shot" people in the face so badly, then even if spellguns died, the other three guns and, you know, Longbows & even Crossbows would spontaneously stop existing too. As it stands now, if anything's stopped existing Gun-wise, then it's Stone Gun since there's reason to use that thing if you can get damage already superior to it without specifically having to cure Petrify and wasting a turn on two of your units.

I'm not entirely blaming FFMaster for this given that spellguns have pretty much always been overpowering to me, even since Vanilla, despite their randomness. It just seems like it's even more noticeable now when they're consistent about hitting for 200~ damage strikes on average across the map even on 40 Faith units.

If you don't think spellguns are a problem even as they are now, then there's honestly nothing I can say about the issue that would convince you they need to change again or are better off dead. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 02, 2013, 04:55:36 pm
Waitwaitwait.  I'm not reading 90% of that because it'll make my brain hurt, but I did read your reply about Shields, which I can summarize down to "The class has to perform /work/ to get the most of that Shield? Fuck that!"

So...

Using the same logic that "Time Mage shouldn't get Shields because the only ones it can use without 'work' are the Escutcheon II and Aegis Shield."

Time Mage shouldn't get Staves because the only one it can use without "work" is the Wizard Staff, which you want removed.

Time Mage shouldn't get Hats because the only ones it can use without "work" are the Golden Hairpin and Holy Miter.

Time Mage shouldn't get Clothes because the only ones it can use without "work" are the Wizard Outfit and Black Costume.

Welp, you heard the man, better remove Staves, Hats, and Clothes too.




In seriousness, you missed the point of what Gaignun was saying entirely.  FDC wants Time Mages with 10 SPD.  Some want Time Mages with 1 more MA.  Etc.  Guess what all these things can be found in?  The secondary effects of various Shields.  You give players the choice of which Time Mage buff they ultimately want, and through your own admission open yourself up to a wider array of combos and synergies despite the Time Mage's limited equipment options through things like Mace of Zeus and Mythril Shield, Rainbow Staff + various Shields, etc., as well as giving something unique to Time Mages that they were sorely lacking in compared to other mages when put on the offense.

All you've been doing is using wordiness to draw out the replies to be longer, and longer, and longer, and longer... and you've been so hung up on the goddamn "oh no it might be midcharged the EV won't work oh no" you don't seem to understand what Gaignun was saying at all.  There are plenty of reasons to be against it, but you don't seem to understand why it even wants to be done to get to the point where you can be against it...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 05:28:24 pm
Quote from: The DamnedAre "we" going to start giving things to (lesser) classes in lieu of trying to fix actual problems because just a few items in that category would benefit the class? If that's the case, then why not give Bards innate access to Bows so that Holy Bow could finally see some use? Better yet, why not give all Mages (or, hell, everyone) innate access to Armor if Hats other than Flash Hat are finally going to get more MP? Especially when everyone has trouble with status? Same with giving everyone Clothes. Everyone benefits from elemental absorption, right?


You're taking my counter-argument to a logical extreme.  I said every class enjoys the benefit of a shield to counter your point that Time Mages cannot use shields effectively without secondaries.  Indeed, every class benefits from status resistance and elemental absorption, too.  That doesn't mean every class gets them.

Quote from: The DamnedIn terms of balance, stats of course balance out shield access, which is part of the reason why I can't currently get behind your proposal: not only does it throw any stat "changes" to Time Mage into further chaos by adding in another option--"Leave Time Mage's stats as they are and just give them Shields"--but also doesn't solve the underlying problem of said stats...you know, being horrible. Or, at least, being the exact same as Mediator and then blown away in terms of HP. Time Mages don't really have jack-of-all-trade stats, much less good ones at present.


Would you mind specifying which stats in particular are holding the Time Mage back?  The way I see it, a Time Mage:

The shield's evasion covers for the poor base HP, making Time Mages squishier, but harder to hit -- a unique role among mage classes.  As for Time Mage's primaries, all are status-based -- well, except Comet, which hits 100% of the time and doesn't scale -- so none strongly depend on base stats.  They can use their primaries just as well now as they ever will.

Quote from: The Damned(As an aside, I will grant that a Glacier Gunner can't get past your set-up...easily. This is of course assuming that he doesn't have Shield Break [instead of Armor Break] or just have friends with Oil [or with Shield Break/Weapon Break/Armor Break]. Unless you're going to tell me that this already too-specialized, only-two-of set-up [that currently screws over the Time Mage's MP] also necessitates wearing Diamond Armlet or 108 Gems, which block Oil but leaves the user vulnerable to Silence now as well, or using Maintenance as a Support or both.


And all is well in the FFH universe.  Heaven forbid there is no counter to my setup.  At least gunners rock Shield Break in addition to Armor Break or need to spray around Oil now.  Using magic guns just got (a little) more difficult.

As my own aside: is it possible to have Oil simply add "Weak: Element" without overriding "Absorb: Element"?  When I proposed the change to Oil all those months ago, I didn't expect Oil to overwrite absorption.  What are other people's thoughts on this suggestion?

Quote from: The DamnedBasically you're telling me that spellguns aren't a problem just because some obscure set-up that drastically cuts down your actual options and can only be used as a two-of exists and might beat it. This despite the fact that said Gunners can just Hawk's Eye your face off, Oil you up and paddle you that way.

...Yeah. You might as just say "hey, Spellguns aren't a problem so long as you make every team you have two units with Projectile Guard and two Time Mages with either Black Magick or Summon Magick." Sounds fun.


I didn't say magic guns aren't a problem.  I simply gave an example of what shields make possible for a Time Mage.  No other mage class will be able to block Fire, Ice, and Lightning damage without utilising their support ability or accessory slot.

Quote from: The DamnedSpellguns either need to die or turn into "Nether" Spellguns so they don't get powered up by just walking around since obviously lowering their WP and making them consistent didn't do jack.)


Spell guns are a whole other can of worms.  We (and I'm not even sure who "we" is anymore) redesigned spell guns to remain a solid DPS option.  In fact, on average, they do less DPS now than they did when they were triggering three tiers of Black Magic. (On second thought, they might actually do a bit more, but with the removal of tier 2-3 procs, there's a smaller chance that they'll 1HKO their target.)  What's currently out of control is how they're being paired with Pilgrimage, which is boosting their solid DPS into ridiculously solid DPS.  Personally, I would kill Pilgrimage before magic guns, but seeing that Pilgrimage was just introduced with patch 1.39, I doubt that this suggestion is very popular.    Something else needs to change.  Making them "Nether" gets around the whole Warpath/Pilgrimage problem, so I think it's a good idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 02, 2013, 05:43:57 pm
Mev should work on spellguns  and there should be an additional piece of equipment (Crystal shield?) that duplicates the effects of the white robe
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 06:10:47 pm
Subjecting the guns to M-EV is indeed another option.  If we subject them to M-EV, but keep them boostable with Pilgrimage, players will surely start to stack more M-EV.

As for making a second White Robe, the problem with that is that it adversely affects Black Magick, as well.  That's why we removed Venetian Shield in the first place.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 02, 2013, 11:20:54 pm
(I've only been putting "we" in quotations because only small percentage of the people actually involved with ARENA actually post here. Seriously, outside of the newer Malroth, it's basically the same half dozen people ever responding, yourself [Gaignun] and myself included. And since I don't want to assume that anyone automatically agrees with anyone else....)

Okay, I'll make this reply shorter (not like that's saying much), which should be easy since I was tired of talking about this after the initial reply (which just proves how much I can ramble when bored).

That said, before I forget, I have to ask something: Is there any reason ARENA isn't using Xifanie's hack that puts a limit on stat boosting and reductions?

I ask both because I rarely talk with FFMaster directly and because it seems like using it would solve a bunch of things, like Mimes being basically still only used for Song or Dance still and Quickening quickly getting absurdly powerful.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on January 02, 2013, 04:55:36 pmWaitwaitwait.  *snip*


Only reason I'm harping on the EV so much is because Gaignun seems to be saying that we should leave Time Mage's currently crappy stats alone for Shields. Well, that and getting mid-charged happens a lot because the AI is dumb about that too much of the time even if you know to expect it. So, yes, again, Shields would benefit Time Mage quite well, just like they would basically any class save maybe Samurai & Ninja. "Even" I can see that if you feel I'm missing the point by harping perhaps a bit much on "OMG! UR LIK GOT MID-CHARED DUDE!" [/physical pain]

Thing is, getting mid-charged with their currently weird speed is a real and constant problem, especially with their crap HP, which giving Shields isn't actually fixing or even really addressing. I don't deny that Zephyr Shield would "fix" that somewhat by bumping their speed up to 10, but part of Gaignun's argument for giving Time Mage's Shields in the first place was because Shields have a bunch of M-EV...except for Zephyr Shield & Genji Shield.

I mean, 5% M-EV is better than 0% M-EV, but...yeah. Shrug.

I'm curious: What "more valid" reasons do you have against it?

As I've said, I ultimately wouldn't be against Time Mages potentially getting Shields. I just want us to "decide" on what happens with their stats (or doesn't) and with Staves (and Crystal Shield & Rainbow Staff & that possible accessory) first. I don't think that's asking that much, walls of text aside.

Well, those things and maybe considering that another mage--*cough*re-statted Scholar*cough*--should get a Shield first/as well if it's going to bother having access to Swords.

(Also, I wasn't talking about Wizard Staff being one of the "usable" ones. I mean, it's decent and all, but we're already been over why I think it should die and don't see "But C Bag has less power!" as all that legitimate of a counter-argument. The two of us just don't seem to agree there, which I'm fine with.

As for Hats & Clothes, well, most Time Mages don't really use Clothes anyway and Hats are necessary because Time Mage HP is already crap without them and there aren't any other options. I'd be fine with them getting access to Ribbons instead though now that you mention it.... [/purposely misses point])


Quote from: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 05:28:24 pm
You're taking my counter-argument to a logical extreme.  I said every class enjoys the benefit of a shield to counter your point that Time Mages cannot use shields effectively without secondaries.  Indeed, every class benefits from status resistance and elemental absorption, too.  That doesn't mean every class gets them.


That was kind of my probably too-fixated point: Where do we stop exactly giving beneficial equipment to classes to solve things that are perhaps better off fixed with stat changes? Especially with as much as equipment changes in ARENA?

It's a "slippery slope" even if it isn't a huge one since giving a mage (or two) access to Shields isn't so wildly out there. I just think other relevant issues should be "conclusively" discussed first is all, especially since you were the primary person who suggested changing Time Mage's stats in the first place IIRC.

I mean, yes, you can of course change your mind, but I'm just curious as to...why you suddenly decided their stats were fine even if they get Shields. That's (part of) what I don't get.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 05:28:24 pm
Would you mind specifying which stats in particular are holding the Time Mage back?


Basically their crappy HP and weird Speed--it either "needs" to go 8 or 10--as you pointed out originally. They could maybe use some MP as well, but I'm ambivalent about that. Their PA is obviously irrelevant even though; not sure why I thought it was even "decent" for a mage--probably confused it with Oracle's. As for their MA, well, I actually don't think giving them +1 more MA would really do much for them given pretty much all of their abilities are MA+X% or...Comet.

Quote from: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 05:28:24 pm
The shield's evasion covers for the poor base HP, making Time Mages squishier, but harder to hit -- a unique role among mage classes.


Eh...being squishy is hardly a unique role among mage classes. [/purposely missing point.]

Though...now that you mention it, I don't think it would break anything if Time Mages got more C-EV regardless and the most of any mages. That would certainly help on the "unique" front whether they get Shields or not.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 05:28:24 pm
As for Time Mage's primaries, all are status-based -- well, except Comet, which hits 100% of the time and doesn't scale -- so none strongly depend on base stats.  They can use their primaries just as well now as they ever will.


Basically why I don't think +1 MA would really "fix" anything; I was more interested in Aegis Shield (for Time Mage) because it blocks Silence and has a crapload of M-EV.

As for Time Mages being status-based, that's kind of their problem....

They're only mages that are really "in-between" status/support-mage and damage/attack mage. I mean, yeah, the majority of their skills are status, though one could easily argue that Haste & Haste 2 and Slow & Slow 2 are basically the same skill in this respect. But they then have five weird damage spells in the form of Comet, Balance, Sinkhole and Demi & Demi 2. Balance & Sinkhole are utterly conditional, Comet basically gets walled by Auto Potion for the price of foregoing Faith entirely and Demi, Demi 2 & Sinkhole are utterly dependent on your opponent's HP.

(Balance basically being useless to Time Mages at present is part of the reason I think they could use at least a bit more HP because that spell is seriously only used on armored units, which is...fine ultimately I guess. It's not like I expect armored units to stop using it. It would just be good if it's primary class could, you know, actually use it well [or better] and we moved Dia for a similar reason.)

I think that might explain why its stats are so...lackluster or basically a mimcry of Mediator, which is another "weird" class but manages to not have as many problems between all its skills being instant and unavoidable, getting instant mass Sleep & instant Paralyze and getting access to a hell of a lot better weaponry and HP. Oracles and Priests are more "status"/support-mages and have the best HP of mages to help back this up. Wizards, Scholars and Summoners all have the squishier HP because they blow people the hell up and (attack) mages are "supposed" to glass cannons anyway.

Meanwhile, Time Mage is a hybrid status & damage spell-caster that gets completely crappy HP despite its sources of damage being a lot less dependable (sans Comet) than literally every other class above (even Oracle & Mediator). Additionally, it can "only" manipulate four statuses as it is, two of them being utterly stat dependent in terms of effectiveness and one of them not really doing much with spell-guns steamrolling over everyone at present. Even Wizard gets more status if we're talking about just the chance to add status.

Granted, Haste & Slow can be and usually are pretty damn important, but Hasting (far) more reliably is already on two other classes right now and pretty much everyone's already agreed Squire's Yell needs a buff; Time Mage's Haste has also been universally agreed to need a buff, but it will still have competition which is also...fine. Similarly, Stop is good and can be quite devastating, but arguably it's ultimately inferior to Sleep...which Mediator gets an instant version of. This when it's already the same or better than Time Mage in every way stat-wise sans a bit of MP. That leaves Don't Move, which got a buff to be usable and can be good, but as said above is a bit...lacking, if only due to the current "Pilgrimage to Spellgun Mecca" metagame.



Quote from: Gaignun on January 02, 2013, 05:28:24 pm
*Speaking of Spellgun stuff*


Oh, okay. The way I was reading that, you seemed to be saying that it was a guaranteed solution to the spell-gun issue, which seemed...odd considering what else Snipe contains and Oil being available on multiple things.

As for fixing it with M-EV, meh... That doesn't really seem like it would be that helpful even if no one gets it automatically. I'd much rather they be Nether though if they have to exist at all since M-EV doesn't really "solve" the problem of their ridiculous damage (even without Pilgrimage); it just delays the "inevitable" even when you actually have it.

Still, it would be something that theoretically makes spell-guns less overpowering than what they are now and it remains a valid option (unless trying to make them go by M-EV breaks the game or something...weird).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 03, 2013, 12:56:31 am
Quote from: The Damned...I'm just curious as to...why you suddenly decided their stats were fine even if they get Shields. That's (part of) what I don't get.


I'm just stirring the pot, I guess.  We can change their base stats, give them shields, or both.  Shields are a pretty huge boost, so I'm willing to keep their base stats poor if we go that way.

Quote from: The DamnedBasically their crappy HP and weird Speed--it either "needs" to go 8 or 10...


Well, in this case, the Zephyr Shield would boost their SP to 10 for you.  Setting their base SP to 10 and keeping them from being able to equip shields is equivalent to permanently equipping them with a Zephyr Shield (without the 5% evasion).  Of course, there is no -1 SP shield, so the SP stat won't be able to fall to 8.

This suggestion aside, I am also sensitive to the suggestions being made about Scholars.  I kind of like the idea of having a tank mage in the game.  One problem with this, though, is that most of Lore is heavily MA-based.  In fact, Time Magick is better suited as the primary skill set of a tank mage.  I think it would be better if we make Time Mages the tank class (ie. give them a massive boost in HP, a boost in PA, drop their SP to 8, possibly drop their MA to 8 -- although we won't want to do that if we expect these tank mages to menace their foes with staves -- and give them shields and a wider variety of weapons) and take Scholars weapons and PA away.  The Scholar sprite seems so much sturdier than the Time Mage sprite, though.  From an artistic viewpoint, I'd expect scholars to be the tank class.  Maybe we can swap sprites while we're at it.

As a matter of fact, I like this idea so much that I'm willing to propose a new set of base stats for Time Mages:


Male       HP  MP  SP  PA  MA Move Jump CEv
Time Mage 154  62  08  10  07    3    3   5
Scholar   113  86  08  04  10    3    3   5

Female     HP  MP  SP  PA  MA Move Jump CEv
Time Mage 144  67  08  08  09    3    3   5
Scholar   106  92  08  03  12    3    3   5


Time Mages would be comparable to Squires, but would have +1 MA, -10 HP, and -5 CEv.  I pulled these numbers off the top of my head, so shoot them down as you please.

Equipment would be something like

Time Mage: Swords, Staves, Books, Poles, Shields, Hats, Clothes, Robes, Accessories
Scholar: Rods, Hats, Clothes, Robes, Accessories

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 03, 2013, 01:11:19 am
I'd rather see Time Mages gain/lose 1 SPD, leaning towards 10 SPD, then adding shields. However, I would definitely like to see a shield wielding mage, preferably Oracles.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 03, 2013, 02:24:52 am
(Good to see that I wasn't that out of bounds in suggesting that Oracles would be among the more "deserving" of Shields even though at present their only real problem is Mimic Daravon utterly obviating Sleep. Well, that and Beguile being so damn finicky, but that's because Charm is so all or nothing compared to most other statuses....)

Okay, I'll keep this post "short", partly because I'm sure Raven is already irked by me again as it is. Of course, that wrongly gives the implication that he ever stops being irked by me, so....

Since I'm speaking "at" him/to him, I figured I might as well say now that I thought of a potential compromise to the whole Wizard Staff thing just a couple of hours ago:

Raven, how do you feel about giving the +2 MA from the current Wizard Staff either to Healing Staff, which would then lose the Strengthen Holy & Dark buff (that respectively go to the redone White Staff & Wizard Staff), or to Rainbow Staff?

Hell, you could even maybe give it to Gold Staff if you want since that's currently the only damn Staff worth attacking with (at present) anyway, especially if you're worried about damage on +2 MA option as you brought up when you mentioned how C Bag wasn't enough a while ago.

I just want Wizard Staff to open up to be something other than a needless carbon copy of Wizard Rod, especially when C Bag exists for everyone.

Quote from: Gaignun on January 03, 2013, 12:56:31 am
I'm just stirring the pot, I guess.  We can change their base stats, give them shields, or both. Shields are a pretty huge boost, so I'm willing to keep their base stats poor if we go that way.


I see. That's more than fair. It just seemed kind of sudden.

Regardless, sorry if it seemed like I was biting your head off in between making your eyes bleed.

Quote from: Gaignun on January 03, 2013, 12:56:31 am
*Tank Mage stuff between Time Mage and Scholar*


Hmmm...that's quite an interesting idea, especially since it works and fits on a lot of levels despite being such a seemingly drastic change. It fits with Time Mage's hybrid mage status. It gives them a further niche with the Shield thing by being the only (?) mage to have Shields. It gives them better self-healing from the Demi spells. It gives them a less awkward speed (even if it thus makes Zephyr Shield less usable for them without other equipment sacrifice, but meh, small loss). And it finally, finally would enable Time Mage to able to effectively use its own damn Balance spell.

Of course, it's not entirely without faults, but aside from the stats probably needing to be more fine-tuned, those faults seem to be more with outlying things. Things such as it being such a drastic change (on top of everything else that's maybe going into 139 already) or something still needing to happen with Scholar obviating Wizard even though Lore is so MA-oriented as you pointed out.

Regardless, it's something to definitely think over now. Hmmm....

P.S. Since it came up when you originally suggested how to change Time Mage's stats for the better, how do you feel about Priest's stats now (and in relation to all this)?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 03, 2013, 04:00:43 pm
I'd say Take 2 MA away from Scholars but they should be the ones to get shields as they're the mages with the best weapon selection anyway.  (but the all map affecting lores should get a boost) 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on January 03, 2013, 08:43:10 pm
Quote from: Malroth on January 03, 2013, 04:00:43 pm
(but the all map affecting lores should get a boost)

I agree with this because I have several teams that spam lore.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 05, 2013, 03:08:19 am
I'm also starting to be a fan of Un-Fury based gun damage, having the guns proc nether fire/bolt/ice with MEV applying to the shots

Also AOE2 Vert 3 for Dispel magic so it can be an effective masamune counter
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 05, 2013, 08:28:50 am
Quote from: The Damned on January 03, 2013, 02:24:52 amSince it came up when you originally suggested how to change Time Mage's stats for the better, how do you feel about Priest's stats now...?


I am kind of indifferent toward priest stats at the moment.  If we're going to drop Time Mages to 8 SP, then priests could still be bumped up the 9 SP, if only for the sake of variety.  But if 9 SP is truly awkward for caster types, then let's not bother.

Quote from: Dokurider... I would definitely like to see a shield wielding mage, preferably Oracles.


Oracles are indeed another option, but I am hesitant to give them access, myself.  Unlike Time Mages, Oracles are blessed with a solid skill set and decent stats.  For the low cost of 400 JP, Oracles may equip themselves with Defense UP.  Throw on Aegis Shields and they're ready to handle almost anything that's thrown their way.

They're definitely suited for shields, but, in my opinion, giving them shields makes them too good.

Quote from: MalrothI'm also starting to be a fan of Un-Fury based gun damage, having the guns proc nether fire/bolt/ice with MEV applying to the shots


Let's have a look at the damage.  I'll consider Glacier Gun since it's the strongest.  Using current values for Nether Ice and Glacier Gun, damage output from a user with 40 Brave is

Base: 75-105
With Elemental Strengthening and Magic Attack UP: 126-176

Given that this is as strong as they'll ever get, that's pretty weak for a gun that would take M-EV.  By comparison, Romanda Gun's optimal damage is 78-110 (base) and 102-143 (with Attack UP), and that bypasses P-EV and is insensitive to the target's elemental resistance.  Stone gun is even better, at 113-158 (base) and 151-211 (with Attack UP).  If we use Nether spells, we're going to have to keep letting the magic guns hit at 100%, and even then they'll be pretty unattractive.  Boosting their WP isn't an option, because we'll run into issues with Grand Cross and Kagesougi again.

I propose three options:

1) Make magic guns mildly strong, but let them continue to bypass M-EV.  This keeps the guns dependable for both dealing damage and healing party members that might be stacking M-EV.  I would like to have the guns proc a Nether spell that is stronger than the current ones, though.  (Nether Ice's current formula is MA*8; I would be comfortable with a Nether spell whose formula is MA*9 or MA*10)

2) Keep magic guns strong, but subject them to M-EV.  If a Nether-equivalent Ice 2 spell is made for Glacier Gun, then the gun's damage would be 103-145 (base) and 173-242 (maximised).  This is equal to its current damage output, with the only difference being that it can no longer be boosted with Pilgrimage.  This puts it on par with Stone Gun.  Its lack of "initial: Petrify" and slightly higher maximised damage makes up for its susceptibility to elemental resistance and M-EV and the general larger number of Setiemson wearers over Cherche wearers.  The high damage gives players a reason to stack M-EV, or to continue equipping Projectile Guard.  As a bonus, we can reduce the JP cost of Projectile Guard (from 300 to 200~250) to give players an easier time designing counter strategies.

3) Make magic guns use the current Nether formulas, but let them continue to bypass M-EV.  This will lead to the demise of magic guns.  Aside from in specialized elemental absorption teams, I highly doubt many players will consider using this version of magic guns.  Maybe players will finally start equipping their archers with those longbows and crossbows that have been neglected for so long.  Either that or they'll go back to using Stone Guns.  I bet they'll do the latter.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 05, 2013, 03:07:04 pm
(I'm just going to assume no one knows about the Xifanie Maintenance hack thing, so I'll have to try to remember to ask FFMaster when he comes back to the forums.

Also, I'm not yet sure about the "completely redo Time Mage & Scholar" thing yet, though I am increasingly leaning towards it....)

Ugh. Accursed need for sleep. Apparently I was so tired that I ended actually being sleepy, but I have yet to annotate because I was seriously trying to do four things at once last night. So now the Youtube stuff won't be annotated until well into this afternoon. Joy.

Anyway, I'll just type up a few things that (re)occurred to me while compiling all that equipment and ability information for the SSC tournament. I figure I might as well put it down now because, as always, I might otherwise forget:


1. Crossbows: So, when I made that list concerning all the weapons about a page or two back, Crossbows were one of the things I was ambivalent about changing. Outside of "fixing" Bow Gun's proc, the only suggestion I had was to switch Poison Bow & Silencer's WP and even that was only a "maybe" thing. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Silencer needs to have the highest WP after Gastrafitis/Gastraphetes because otherwise it will continue to see no use due to how commonly Silence is blocked. After all, Bizen Boat (the katana) still sees very little use despite causing Silence at 100% and being one of the few weapons innately accessible by a class with innate Two Hands.

That said, I think I've come to understand why Poison Bow probably has the most power of the non-Forced Crossbows. Actually, I'm pretty sure I've understood for a while: it's so that it isn't obviated by Hawk's Eye, especially since Hawk's Eye is currently one of the few reliable/useful sources of Poison across the board as well as being a source of Oil and good damage. To that end, I would agree that dropping Poison Bow down to 10 WP would probably be the "unofficial death of it" between having to compete with Hawk's Eye and both Night Killer & Hunting Bow as well now being out-damaged by Silencer; it would also technically be out-damaged by a working/fixed Bow Gun, but more on that in a bit.

So...in that light, here's what I propose again for Crossbows:

As I said before, I continue to think Night Killer, Hunting Bow & Gastraphetes are fine as they are; I'm tempted to say that Gastraphetes could maybe use a bit more, but that's probably Spellguns and those being able to be used with Shields mostly coloring my idea. The other three do need changes though:

Bow Gun: 8 WP stays as it is, but its Armor Breaking ability falls to 33% if that recent hack that makes Breaks not act as attacks after the target doesn't have the viable equipment is not used. Even if the initial Armor Break (even with Concentrate) has a "low" chance of hitting off the 50% as it is as Raven pointed out months ago, after Armor is broken, I can't remember if the double hit aspect would become 100% or not (with Concentrate). Regardless, there really is no reason for this to outpower already barely used Dual Cutters so much IMO. Otherwise, if the hack is used, then that its Armor Break chance staying at 50% seems fine even with Concentrate lurking around.


Silencer: Its 10 WP becomes 12 WP and it becomes the strongest of Crossbows that can still be used with Shields, which should be enough for it to see use finally even as much as Silence is blocked.


Poison Bow: This will technically die just as...whatever Silencer replaced died; I honestly don't even remember what Silencer replaced already apart from being really blandly named "Cross Bow". This is partly because both of them weren't ever used, with Silencer's disuse being literal at present.

Regardless, the Crossbow that would "replace" Poison Bow would have 10 WP and have a 33% chance of adding Poison and Oil to whomever it hits; please, no Repel Knife repeats where it's really "either, or or maybe both"--Separate sucks outside of Swordskills for a reason. That may seem a bit much, but it allows it to not be obviated by Hawk's Eye's (admittedly still kind of dubious) existence and instead directly compete with it without obviating Hawk's Eye either (on Range 4- weapons at least).

Despite the direct competition and Eternal currently showing in the tournament how unlucky one can with 50% chances (if that's what Spell Edge really is), it probably shouldn't have 50% because it's instant and Concentrate is back. That and it is (slightly) more powerful than Hawk's Eye on average from the get-go. It would also be only the second weapon--though Repel Knife technically isn't working--to add two statuses and the first and only one to do it at a distance.

As for what to rename it, I've always felt that "Poison Bow" was rather bland, just like Cross Bow--whatever it did--was before it "died" and became Silencer. It doesn't mean that a name can't be "on the nose", so to speak, since I don't have a problem with Shieldrender doing exactly as says, but just "Poison Bow" wouldn't really fit anymore anyway. As such, I propose one of the following variants, which are legion: Hawk Bow, Hawk's Bow, Hawk's Band Bow, Hawkeye Bow, Avenger's Bow, Hawkingbird Bow Hawk's Eye Bow, Riza Bow, Marker Bow or Target Bow.

This may just be me though.



2. Recent Break Hack: So this is basically a "yay or nay" question: Do people think that the hack that makes it so that breaks miss and don't act as attacks if the target doesn't have the proper equipment to broken should be used in ARENA?


3. Damn, "Daravon" Dryly Drones Dutifully: So...with it popping up more and more lately, I've been thinking again: Mimic Daravon seems like it might be a hell of a lot more fair if was just single-target, especially since Mediator's never really ever been a complete pushover without it. This even if half of their skills are still sort of dubious. At present, though, Mimic Daravon seems a bit too "swingy" for something that's more or less unavoidable & multi-target & instant and it has hell of a lot more freedom than Oracle's Sleep & it thus obviates that more or less. Reducing its targeting to one target doesn't seem like it would make it instantly useless either, even if it would now have to "compete" with Blackmail since Don't Act and Sleep are similar; ultimately they're quite different though. Its JP cost would probably have to be reduced, though, especially if Oracle's Sleep is only 150 JP.

I've been kind of ambivalent about this and still kinda am admittedly. This is partly because aside from Spellguns, Mediator's innate damage sources of Knives & Guns have been "meh" until recently and they didn't get Books & Robes until relatively recently as well. Additionally, with Spellguns obviously needing some type of change and Insult or at least Berserk possibly able to get "nerfed" in terms of actually getting a CT, I'm not entirely sure it's merited. It gets increasingly "hazy" given the AI tends not to use Preach or Solution and, for some reason, doesn't seem to be using even the buffed form of Persuade despite the fact that it "should" be whoring CT 00 skills as much as it whores Defending.

So shrug. Just a thought like everything else.

Quote from: reinoe on January 03, 2013, 08:43:10 pm
I agree with this because I have several teams that spam lore.


I picture you saying this in a completely serious and deadpan tone for some reason...in the voice of Daria.

Regardless, even if Scholar did lose 2 MA, there's no way in Hell I'd support increasing Lore damage except maybe to be F(MA*5). That said, I'm not as convinced that Mace of Zeus "needs" to lose Strengthen or Absorb, but that requires...more "investigation" I suppose.


Quote from: Malroth on January 05, 2013, 03:08:19 am
I'm also starting to be a fan of Un-Fury based gun damage, having the guns proc nether fire/bolt/ice with MEV applying to the shots

Also AOE2 Vert 3 for Dispel magic so it can be an effective masamune counter


AoE 2 is rather overkill. I think you meant AoE 1, which I actually wouldn't be that against, though that then pretty much "screws over" all buffs just because of Masamune and I say this as someone who loathes the current Masamune. So...I suppose I'm ultimately ambivalent about this and feel that there is likely some better solution.

Good to know that's one more person on the Nether Gun idea though.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 05, 2013, 08:28:50 am
I am kind of indifferent toward priest stats at the moment.  If we're going to drop Time Mages to 8 SP, then priests could still be bumped up the 9 SP, if only for the sake of variety.  But if 9 SP is truly awkward for caster types, then let's not bother.


Priests having 9 Speed shouldn't be awkward for them at all since they're more reactive anyway. Hell, they have access to the still-instant Dia, which is already a hell of a lot more reliable than Time Mage's current sources of damage sans Comet. 9 Speed is only so awkward for Time Mage because they have crap HP and attacking options (esp. equipment-wise), they lost Short Charge and the AI has that obsession with casting/trying to inflict/add Haste and Slow even if it would get them killed; the last part is made all the worse by having to compete with Masamune and the soon-to-be instant Yell.

So 9 Speed should be fine for Priests and be a nice parallel to Chemist having that Speed. Hell, maybe "we" could even bump them or another mage--Oracle? Redone Scholar?--up to 10 Speed.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 05, 2013, 08:28:50 amOracles are...definitely suited for shields, but, in my opinion, giving them shields makes them too good.


I see. I suppose I agree...somewhat.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 05, 2013, 08:28:50 am
*snip*

I propose three options [for Spellguns]:

1) Make magic guns mildly strong, but let them continue to bypass M-EV.

2) Keep magic guns strong, but subject them to M-EV

3) Make magic guns use the current Nether formulas, but let them continue to bypass M-EV.


Yeah, I agree that 3 would be bad; I'd rather they just be dead if that was the case.

So that only really leaves 1 and 2. I lean towards 1 at present, but I'll need to think about it more.

Thanks for running the numbers. I'm sadly so atrocious at that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 05, 2013, 05:22:41 pm
no to 10 speed scholars,
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Avalanche on January 05, 2013, 05:30:37 pm
- I dont like the idea of casters with shields.
- If you want to boost Time Mage give it Speed 10. It makes sense since its the units controlling time.
- I Agree the idea to make Magic Guns subjects to M-Ev
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on January 05, 2013, 11:01:45 pm
Some thoughts of mine:

The Cure line seems very iffy to me right now. Cure2 and Cure3 get the most use, whereas Cure and Cure4 are barely touched at all. I propose a change to that line of spells.

-Cure stays the same, but has Cure3's formula/MP/CT/etc.
-Cure2 becomes Nether Cure, which would cost more and be a bit longer to cast, but would be based on Unfaith (not Unfury).
-Cure3 becomes Pray, which would be single-target heavy healing, but it wouldn't cost as much as Cure.
-Cure4 becomes Heal, which would heal the entire party at once for a bit of HP.

Nether Cure would exist so Priests could have -some- use with low/medium Faith units. I feel something should be done with Protect/Shell, but I can't think of anything decent to replace them with currently. My only guess would be replacing Protect with Vanish and Shell with Wall (as in 1 HP damage until next turn Wall), but I know the AI has issues with the latter.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on January 06, 2013, 12:56:55 am
Recently FFMASTER announced that he's going to begin work on 139.  Normally I don't offer too many serious suggestions in this balance thread because I quickly realized I suck at balancing the game.  However there are some things that I hope that we can hammer out a general consensus on.

With that being said here are the things that seem to NEED changes.  I suppose RavenofRazgriv can then present our ideas to FFTMASTER because he seems to be our "GO TO" person to relay info.

Speed 10 vs Speed 9 Remains the same but they get shields vs Speed 8 but get MP, HP, MA BUFFS.

Of the three I actually think that speed 10 is the best option.  I say this because as much variety as shields offer, at the end of the day if a Time Mage gets hit mid-charge then any evasion on the shield is useless. 


Lower their attack power vs make them UNFAITH vs Make them Subject to EVASION
Interesting is that while Masamune has been everywhere for a long time, it turns out that what's really, truly, OP right now is Pumped up Spellguns.  Anyway  I actually don't want Spellguns subject to evasion.  Hitting everyone nearly 100% of the time is what guns are about.  However they should stand to get a lower power AND subject to UNFAITH.  This prevents them from getting OP with Pilgrimage.  They can still stack with MA UP and Shields.  I recommend lowering their POWER BY 2.



I think we came to a consensus that this will be a movement ability but did we ever decide whom it would actually belong to???



I think this idea fell off the radar when the Masamune/Spellgun power issue started becoming prominent AND obvious.  Once it also became increasingly clear that the problem wasn't so much Staves but Time Mages.  I don't think we ever came to any conclusions except that...

Rainbow Staff needs a change but we're not sure what.
Healing staff needs some sort of boost.
White Staff may actually be even more useless than Rainbow staff

I would like to see Healing Staff (and murasame) get an increase in power by 2. 


It needs to lower it's HP, and MP OR it needs to lose it's HOLY/DARK BOOST.  No matter what it needs to lose +1MA
I think the HOLY/DARK boost should remain and it should have less HP/MP.  Gaignum recommended that it go down to +60HP AND +30MP while keeping HOLY/DARK boost.  This seems acceptable.

FLARE should get it's MP costs reduced by 10.



I think the idea was that Black Hood and Brigandine would get +10mp while GRAND HELMET AND MAXIMILLIAN WOULD GET +10HP


Thieves should get a boost in MP because so many of their abilities rely on MP.  While there has been some discussion of raising the cost of quickening, I think this idea was dropped because the A.I.'s unreliable use of Quickening.  If it were human vs human there would definitely be a need to nerf quickening.


Ninja needs to gain "Heretic" and then have the skill renamed "Mushin" or something like it.  Did we come to a conclusion about Kagesougi losing Don't act?  I think that idea was dropped because as powerful as DA is, there are a lot of items that neutralize DA.


Decapitate needs to lose its 80% proc.

There was also talk about dual-weilding axes.  I don't know if that was or lol's or not.





Throwing Knife - This could easily be 12 WP to match Katar and Orichalcum with range being its perk compared to stats and Two Hands. 

Air Knife - I'd say this is better dropped to 11 WP, because Katar, Orichalcum, and Throwing Knife are meant to be your primary "high WP" Knives anyway unless the wool's been polled over my eyes on that one.  It is fairly strong for a Two Hands compatible weapon, though.


I'mma just post a list of weapons instead of replying to you directly here.

(Note: All of these would be compatible with both Two Swords and Two Hands.)

Hidden Knife - 8 WP. 0% W-EVD, No Element, Always: Transparent, +1 SPD
Ninja Knife - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, +1 PA
Short Edge - 10 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Oil
Ninja Edge - 9 WP. 15% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Don't Move
Spell Edge - 11 WP, 5% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Cast: Dark Sword (P-EVable) or 100% Cast: Spell Absorb
Sasuke Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Fire Element, Boost: Earth (Insert Naruto Joke Here) (Make Icon Red)
Koga Knife - 11 WP, 10% W-EVD, Earth Element, Boost: Fire
Orochimaru Fang - 12 WP, 0% W-EVD, No Element, 50% Add: Blind

Keeps them doing more or less what they're already doing, just better and a bit more varied about it.  Also removes the Iga Knife / Spiked Futon overlap.



Phoenix Blade - Gain Immune: Critical.

Parry Edge - Boost to 25% W-EVD.  20% W-EVD each is shit and not worth using Two Swords for any unit that could use Attack UP and Escutcheon II, and Two Swords Parry Edge isn't much stronger (if at all) than a 14 WP Sword with Attack UP supplemented by Escutcheon II.  That's why I originally proposed this to have 25% W-EVD but everyone flipped a shit over it, and now it's kinda garbage.



Defender - Becomes 16 WP.
Save the Queen and Ragnarok - become Always: Protect and Always: Shell and 15 WP.

Since status is permanent now, Defender needs to be stronger to be worth using, so WP swaps around.



Battle Axe - W-EVD reduced to 20%.  Decap Proc damage reduced to 50% Max HP. This really is stupidly strong lol.

Slasher - W-EVD reduced to 25%.  Gain compatibility with Two Swords for optimum hilarity.

That's all I can think of for now.  Most of the stuff seems to already have a consensus.  But there are some things that can stand to be hammered out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 06, 2013, 01:23:03 am
Quote from: The Damned on January 05, 2013, 03:07:04 pm
2. Recent Break Hack: So this is basically a "yay or nay" question: Do people think that the hack that makes it so that breaks miss and don't act as attacks if the target doesn't have the proper equipment to broken should be used in ARENA?


Makes sense to me.  Breaks doubling as physical attacks struck me as odd ever since I first played FFT on PSX.

Quote from: The Damned on January 05, 2013, 03:07:04 pm
3. Damn, "Daravon" Dryly Drones Dutifully: So...with it popping up more and more lately, I've been thinking again: Mimic Daravon seems like it might be a hell of a lot more fair if was just single-target, especially since Mediator's never really ever been a complete pushover without it. This even if half of their skills are still sort of dubious. At present, though, Mimic Daravon seems a bit too "swingy" for something that's more or less unavoidable & multi-target & instant and it has hell of a lot more freedom than Oracle's Sleep & it thus obviates that more or less. Reducing its targeting to one target doesn't seem like it would make it instantly useless either, even if it would now have to "compete" with Blackmail since Don't Act and Sleep are similar; ultimately they're quite different though. Its JP cost would probably have to be reduced, though, especially if Oracle's Sleep is only 150 JP.


I think Mimic Daravon is one of the few redeeming skills in the Mediator's toolset - the others being Insult and Refute.  Taking away their sole AoE skill might make them kind of toothless.

Quote from: Eternal on January 05, 2013, 11:01:45 pm
The Cure line seems very iffy to me right now. Cure2 and Cure3 get the most use, whereas Cure and Cure4 are barely touched at all. I propose a change to that line of spells.

-Cure stays the same, but has Cure3's formula/MP/CT/etc.
-Cure2 becomes Nether Cure, which would cost more and be a bit longer to cast, but would be based on Unfaith (not Unfury).
-Cure3 becomes Pray, which would be single-target heavy healing, but it wouldn't cost as much as Cure.
-Cure4 becomes Heal, which would heal the entire party at once for a bit of HP.


Cure 2 with Magic Attack UP tends to be a better option than Cure 3 with Short Charge.  For around 5% less healing strength, it costs fewer MP and JP and lets its user put the bonus MA into offense when the user isn't healing.  I'd hate to see it go.

Cure is also great for sneaking in some healing between enemy turns.  Again, though, it requires the caster to have a lot of MA to be worthwhile.

I feel that Cure 4 is unpopular because it is single-targeted.  For single-target healing, most people stick with Item; while items heal for less, they're much easier to use.  Your proposed skill "Pray" might be unpopular for the same reason.

As for "Heal," isn't that kind of like Angel Song?

Anyway, I'm open to shuffling around Cure spells, myself, especially if it means axing Cure 4 for something better. 

Quote from: Eternal on January 05, 2013, 11:01:45 pm
I feel something should be done with Protect/Shell, but I can't think of anything decent to replace them with currently. My only guess would be replacing Protect with Vanish and Shell with Wall (as in 1 HP damage until next turn Wall), but I know the AI has issues with the latter.


I've been thinking about Protect and Shell, too.  How does making them heal a bit of HP in addition to providing Protect or Shell sound?  The AI only casts the spells when their party members are injured, anyway.  I'm not sure whether having a skill concurrently use a MA*X formula for restoring HP and a MA+Y formula for adding a status effect is possible, though.  We might have to make the spells add the status at 100%, then bump up the JP, MP, or CT (or all three) to compensate.

Quote from: reinoe on January 06, 2013, 12:56:55 amWhom Speed +1 belongs to


My choice is Ninja.

Quote from: reinoe on January 06, 2013, 12:56:55 amStaves


I like The Damned suggestion of combining Healing Staff with Wizard Staff into a new staff (... called Healing Staff...) that gives +2 MA and heals.

Quote from: reinoe on January 06, 2013, 12:56:55 amArmour


Somebody (was it Raven?) made a nice post a few pages back about rebalanced armour.  I'll repost it in FFMaster's new thread.  I wasn't following the weapon changes as closely, so I'll let somebody else take care of that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 01:33:47 am
Hold on Gaingun, I'm going to postdump EVERY half-competent idea from here into the other thread.

Sorting through all about 400 posts now, gimme 20mins.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 06, 2013, 02:48:22 am
Too late!  I got most armour-related and skill-related suggestions.  I added in a few of my own, as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 02:59:21 am
I sorted through every post there was so I posted anyway, y'all can screw. :v

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on January 06, 2013, 12:59:58 pm
@Gaignun: Pray would be cheaper than Cure4, and would (hopefully) have lower CT. I suppose that if it were to be buffed further, you could make it Holy Elemental so that it could be further boosted. As for Heal, it'd be similar to Angel Song, but it'd heal for more, would be based on Faith, and wouldn't add Regen.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 06, 2013, 04:16:23 pm
Hasn't come up in a while but Every dance except witch hunt is currently worthless.  Its either so Innaccurate that you only get a proc 1 out of ever 4 uses or has no useful effect when it does.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on January 06, 2013, 05:48:05 pm
Quote from: Malroth on January 06, 2013, 04:16:23 pm
Hasn't come up in a while but Every dance except witch hunt is currently worthless.  Its either so Innaccurate that you only get a proc 1 out of ever 4 uses or has no useful effect when it does.


Agreed. IMO, Witch Hunt is worthless too, with all the Move-MP Up/Absorb MP/MP Restore running around.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 06:32:30 pm
(No[t] going to touch the Dance talk outside of saying that the Dances aren't worthless, though Last Dance, like Last Song, should probably go back to being 50% again.)

Yeah, something probably does need to done with the Cure series of spells, especially since Cure (1) is rather pathetic in most instances. Similarly, despite it being usable, Cure 4 does kind of get obviated by Item a lot of the team, especially with Spellguns punishing such high Faith with damage almost equal to Cure 4; this if it even gets to go off in time.

Cure 3 has similar problems that Gaignun already pointed out.

So Cure(1) getting a boost and Pray & Heal don't sound unwelcome. That said, I can't really get behind Nether Cure, if only because there's really no reason for a low-Faith unit to otherwise use White Magick even for AoE healing since Angel Song, Chakra and elemental-absorb tactics exist. The only thing that doesn't take Faith in White Magick right now is Wall, which currently sucks.

Speaking of which, can we do something about that? For something that's 100% on a class has MP to spare unless it's Holy'ing everything in sight or has some (expensive) attack Secondary, it's rather telling that it hasn't seen use in at least the past three months, if not longer. Hell, it was barely used before my months long self-imposed hiatus in April of last year.

And it seems to have only gotten worse from there what with further having to compete with Chivalry having a now for some reason instant Reraise ability/"spell" that hits 100% and is a third of Wall's cost. This when Wall already had to compete with the Perfumes, Iron Will, the Protect & Shell spells, a Nameless Song that AI will actually use now, and even the two lesser Knightswords & the two lesser Cloths.

So...yeah, something needs to be done with Wall.

That said, I don't see why we should be touching Protect or Shell, much less replacing them with things that we know makes the AI extremely dumb in the form of Vanish (Transparent) and Wall (status). They aren't broken. So why are we trying to "fix" them and make White Magic even more powerful and necessary when it's already mostly fine?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on January 06, 2013, 06:42:44 pm
Sorry, I should have been more clear about Nether Cure. It'd be based on the -target's- Unfaith (I think I used a formula like that in PW somewhere a while ago), and flat out ignore the Priest's. This way you can run a high Faith Priest and still be able to help out your low Faith other units. If people are against the idea of Nether Cure, I suppose it could be made into either Refresh (MP healing) or the like.

As far as Vanish/Wall goes, since Vanish exists now on that one Ninja Blade and the AI works fine with it, I don't see how Vanish would be a problem. I think there's a fix for Wall, too. I'm mostly against Protect1/Shell1 because unlike Haste1/Slow1, the AI barely uses them as is and better versions exist and are far better.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 06:52:41 pm
(Oh.)

Hmmm...I'll have to think about it more in that case though. I wouldn't mind seeing Refresh, though I'm biased towards that obviously.

As for Vanish, the AI only uses that fine because it has as Always: Transparent. If it was Initial: Transparent only, they would act a lot more wonky and dumb. Additionally, IIRC, no one has used Weapon Break on a Ninja with (just one) Hidden Knife, so we really don't know how the AI acts. Didn't we see it act rather stupidly when Sunken State was around though? Or was that only really used with Grand Cross?

As for Wall the status, meh. I'm less against that one, but I've yet to see it be used in any context save for videos of Kanbarif's (or whatever his name was) busted ass, so it immediately rubs me the wrong way. If we're just talking about Protect 1 and Shell 1, then I guess I could see some changes. When you said "Protect" and "Shell", I thought you were talking about changing the statuses on Priest as a whole for some reason.

That's what happens when most spells and statuses are named the same I guess.

Suffice to say if Wall the status gets in, though, then Wall the spell is deader than dead since that thing would instantly become even more worthless, if that's possible. Guess Refresh could replace Wall instead then.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 06, 2013, 06:56:45 pm
Witch Hunt isn't worthless. Sure Absorb MP walls it, but Move MP Up loses to a decent Witch Hunt and MP Restore doesn't come into play until late game. Casters lose turns having to heal up or can't use their more potent spells and that wins games. It especially hurts Physical MP users like Kagesougi spammers and Hawk's Eyers.

Nameless Dance is good, it's just really variable.

Do I need to remind you what Slow Dance does and why it's needs to not that successful in the first place?

Last Dance is just plain inferior to Last Song as adding turns is strong that taking away turns.

Disillusion/Polka Polka is just too much of a guessing game to be useful. Perhaps if they were combined into one with Slow Dance's odds...

Wiznaibus is useful on paper, but in practice, it's walled by Auto Potion, the most common reaction ever.

Why do I feel like I'm repeating what someone already said?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on January 06, 2013, 07:14:38 pm
Random thought. Add: Undead to Wiznaibus. Too overpowered?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Wiz on January 06, 2013, 07:18:32 pm
Yeah, we're gonna have to talk about quickening with thieves plus a few other things I have in mind.
Black Hood: Damned was going somewhere with Quickening discussion before, but alas. Raven's suggestion for this item would actually facilitate Quickening spam even more than it does now.
Taking one of my thieves as an example

Before 139
Male + Thief + Green Beret + Black Costume/Santa Outfit = 324 HP with unyielding (388 in actuality; 324 * 1.2 = 388~ HP Physicially and Magically), 39 MP, 5 Move, 5 Jump at 40 Br/Fa

139 (Black Hood = +110 HP, +50 MP)
Male + Thief + Black Hood + Black Costume/Santa Outfit = 354 HP with unyielding (424 in actuality; 354 *1.2 = 424~ HP Physically and Magically), 74/79 MP (+5/+10 Base MP to Thieves), 4 Move, 4 Jump at 40 Br/Fa

Only con there would be is the -1 jump since it's debatable as to whether -1 Move is actually better/worse. Everything else would just completely go against Gaignun's objective and make my thieves even more difficult to take down

Quote from: GaigunQuickening: increase MP cost to 20 (from 15).  With hats and clothes getting an MP boost, this is done to prevent "Move-MP UP + Quickening" from being easily used on tanks with huge HP pools.
Give Thieves around +5 base MP (on par with Ninja)


Quickening: The move's meant to be spammed, not to be applied just one to four times in battle and that's it. Defense's best friend is speed  and when the two are combined, they're nearly impossible to kill single-handedly. Not only that, but it increases their offense as well with the constant double, and even triple turns if it comes to that. Quickening's only flaw to it is that the death counter will work against you now, nothing more. Take my thieves again as an example, would you prefer to do 300 damage via double-turns (150+ HP swipes from the Sasuke Knives after only gaining a few points in speed, a few as in only 7 or so) or would you want a PA/ MA Stacked Glass Cannon that does that same amount of damage in one turn to non-tanky units, but never gets hits off because he/she's so slow at a measly 8 SPD and has only a less than 50% chance of connecting his/her shots due to the darkness status inflicted from Kiyomori-Spamming Mediators? If Quickening's not rid of and the changes to the Black Hood are implemented, you're just going to see the same thing happen from my team and it'll be easier for them to pull it off (Higher HP Pool and all). And if Quickening's not rid of and the proposed change to the black hood is taken off the list, then you'll just punish and detract everyone from using it at all since it'll be more difficult to use effectively otherwise with the units that currently use it (Can't really imagine mages using it all that much).  Basically, all what I'm saying metaphorically speaking is that Quickening requires a niche strategy and is most effectively used only on a team like mine because Speed + Defense are mutually exclusive:  Although increasing speed doesn't yield a higher DPS compared to Pure-Offense initially, the constant additional turns from speed-building will inevitably increase that DPS just enough (And even higher compared to Pure-Offense if it gets to that point) to take down any other Defensive force a vast majority of the time.

TL;DR Quickening's broken (Meaning it needs to die), and won't be used more effectively any other way compared to how I'm using it because as a component and despite the +5 MP increase to 15 as opposed to its former 10 MP Cost, it's still beating a majority of the metagame like YUSD.  Being able to do 300 damage from one unit at 40 Br in two turns (Commonly double-turning people I may add) is wrong.


Now that one of the biggies is out of way
Sasuke Knife: It can stay as is, it's a nice little one-trick pony for my thieves currently...if everyone wants to have Quickening stay around that is. If not (As well as Sasuke Knife I may add), then I propose the next thing below should be on the chopping block due to it being irrefutably broken in its given context (And niche like my team is)...

Iron Boots: Before I get into the details, let's just do a little math.

Attacking Raven's 40 Br Defense UP/Protect Dancers (Monk/Dancer now), with a 70 Br AU (Attack UP) Stone Gun User at Neutral Compat = 56 Damage

Attacking a 70 Brave Unit, with a 70 Br AU Stone Gun User at Neutral Compat = 211 Damage

56/211 = 26.54~ % ; 1 - .2654 = .7346~ = 73.46~ Damage Reduction

Yeah, reducing the damage output by that much from the two layers of physical defense is absurd in addition to essentially protection from Magical Offenses (Sans Draw Out, to some extent) via Shell + 40 Fa. At the very least, I'm willing to keep it intact as long as it loses Always: Protect (For now). Right now, this is the equivalent of DU(Defense UP)/MDU (Magic Defend UP)/Move=0 conveniently packaged all into one accessory. I know this accessory's here for Dancing/Singing and and I guess used to be lore spamming (Scholars being changed to Druids) , but frankly, it's only been really effective through YUSD, which has gone about beating probably 90% of the metagame. And imo, having a team win that often (More so than my S1 Team, which I've proven also has broken elements to it; Quickening, Masamune...although it's only OP, Insult, etc...) only verifies that Defensive/Offensive Extreme teams need to be toned down, i.e. the damage scale should be narrowed. I mean, if Akuma (http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/31/super-street-fighter-2-turbo-hd-remix-tiers-character-rankings/) was banned and he was only beating the metagame 62.5 % of the time (100/160; Assuming players are of equal skill level) and other outlets like this (http://www.capcom-unity.com/street_fighter/go/thread/view/7411/14050127/Akuma_banned_at_Evolution_2009) or shoryuken (http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Akuma_(HDR)) verify that as such even after supposedly being rebalanced in HDR, then I think it's safe to say YUSD shouldn't exist in its current form as explained above.


Berserk subjected to Evasion: I don't think so. The status, although is considered neutral to the AI, is meant to be a debuff, not a buff. And since it already is subjected to reaction abilities anyway, there's no need to go any further steering it away from its intended direction especially since it's only applied through only one reliable way that's broken, which is...

Insult: It can die. Decreasing it's hitrate will only make it useless (Another niche strategy best used defensively), The Damned. You'll just see the same fate happen to those that have already incurred my team's wrath if left alone in its current form. (And even if all you're units are immune to Berserk, that's not a guarantee for victory. Test out DomieV's Famous Knights against me and see what happens). Imo, combining Berserk (Oracle Skillset) + Poison (Wizard Skillset) for a faith-based skill (In the Oracle's skillset) with an AOE of two would be far more beneficial since people would have more of an incentive to pick it due to its deadly nature. Besides, it would free up one additional skill slot + an AOE Poison/Berserk spell would actually see some use although it would have certain risks to it with having smart-targeting and what not.


A few more biggies...
No JP Cap, No Ability Cap, No Item Cap: Gonna be blunt and just say I'm suggesting these because that'll significantly increase the scope of team creation. There are other reasons like the fact that if something were to be deemed OP or Broken as a result of these, then they just can simply be Nerfed or Rid of and replaced with something else accordingly. Putting it into practice (hypothetically speaking of course), if I created 4x of the Mediator design I have now from my S1 Team, it might sound cool on paper and beat a lot of teams that aren't immune to Berserk, but all what it takes to stop it in its tracks entirely is the Diamond Armor. And hell, it'd probably only take immunity to poison + having Auto-Potion since 10-25 damage bag smacks I doubt are gonna cut it. It also might sound cool if you gave everyone the Brigandine as opposed to varying it up with Black Costumes/Santa Outfits/Rubber Costumes/Earth Clothes, but now you're less diversified in regards to elemental-oriented teams. There's checks and balances. The changes made to the gear and abilities then become the rules of the game. I don't see why anyone wouldn't want to take advantage of that.


One last tiny thing...
HP/MP/PA/MA Buffs: I was thinking of buffing the MP/MA Raw Stat Values of Males to that of Females and vice versa of Females to that of Males(HP/PA Raw Stat Values) if only because I'd like to see more male mages and female warriors (Especially the Sprites). It'd help out everyone especially Female Thieves since the only reason why someone would pick one is for Steal Heart, and that's it, which is pretty lame. And, as a result, you're more capable of fiddling around with the Zodiac Stats without having to worry about drawbacks in stat discrepancies as well.


I would elaborate more on those last few spoilers, but I'm lazy, so yeah.

There's just a few bugs though (more or less) that I should point out before concluding.


-I mentioned it to FFM, but the Thieves/Scholars have their Sprite type switched around (Shishi ftw). That's why thieves look like they're swinging awkwardly and the motion from the Scholar's arms looks odd.

-Not that it matters all too much, but the yellow and purple palettes for the female summoner are inverted (Palette 5 = Yellow; Palette 6 = Purple)

-It's been said before, but units with transparency are still taking in evasion (From Mantles I know that much, but everything else, I'm not sure).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 07:27:36 pm
There's no reason to edit Dance further.  How many versions of Arena did I have to dominate with Y U SO DERP to get people to realize how strong that stuff is?

It's still useful, just not omgwtfoplol.  The only Dance that truly has no use and could potentially be buffed is Wiznaibus, but Wiznaibus being buffed essentially makes Auto Potion and HP Restore even more mandatory, so I'd rather leave it alone.  Dancing for damage is generally the worst reason to be Dancing when the entire skillset is based on hazing.  Wiznaibus mostly exists as a hard-counter to Life Song and leaving it that way is fine, personally.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 07:47:23 pm
(Yeah, the only real change that I could see to Wiznaibus that wouldn't necessitate Auto Potion becoming even more popular is just giving it [back] a cheaper JP cost compared to all the other Dances like 150 JP or even 100 JP. No way that thing needs to cost 200 JP unlike Life Song, even with Mime Spam due its longer CT now.)

I pretty much agree with Wiz about Quickening, but I've always admittedly hated the hell out of that that thing since the beginning. Only way I'd maybe ever be "comfortable" with it was if Xifanie's stat hack was implemented, but I think that's only for Maintenance and losing stats. Even if it isn't, I'm sure I would still not like Quickening (though I'd use it because, hey, winning).

Can't really say where I stand his other stuff at present, though I've already watched his team and DomieV's fight for the record. I just need to record it--damn pseudo-homonyms. Suffice to say, even without Berserk being a factor, the results...weren't pretty due to Quickening and a few other things.

Quote from: Eternal on January 06, 2013, 07:14:38 pm
Random thought. Add: Undead to Wiznaibus. Too overpowered?


Too overpowered since nothing really cures Undead (and I think it should stay that way), though amusingly we had the same thought.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on January 06, 2013, 08:06:16 pm
There's Holy Water for undead.  Wiznaibus(Undead Proc) followed by Autopotion is too powerful of a hard counter. 

Is that really necessary?  I mean Monks are not tearing up the charts when it comes to damage that they deal.  Furthermore unless it's a "theme team" like CT5HOLY's "Do Not Disturb", monks have 70 Fury to maximize their damage.  It also means physical damage dealt to them is sorta maximized.  I'm just not seeing the monk skill as problematic.


I'd like to see quickening stick around for one more version.  The reason for this is because while it can be potentially problematic on long matches, Long matches are something not of the norm in the game.  Furthermore, even though Dokurider unlocked the A.I. behavior for quickening, there's still no guarantee that the A.I. will abuse it.  I'm indifferent to the MP cost of it being increased though.


I'd rather not see their JP decreased.  The skills themselves are INCREDIBLY USEFUL.  Yes capitalized for extra emphasis.  Take "Arm Aim" for example.  It's instant, costs no MP, and because of it typically being combined with guns, has huge range.  Compare with Blackmail.  It costs 100jp is also instant and has a range of three.  In fact Blackmail may have to be increased to 200 considering that it's more efficient than "Arm Aim"


We could actually rearrange these like how we did with Black Magic.  And it's also thematic with what Eternal recommends.

Kill off Cure 1 completely and replace it with whatever maybe Nether cure???
Kill off Cure 4 completely and make it some sort of Healing for the entire team or have a large AoE.  If we really want to get ambitious with it we can make it like "White Wind" from Final Fantasy 7 and have it cure status too, for a hefty MP cost of course.
Make "Cure 2-->Cure 1" 
Make Cure 3-->Cure 2".


I know I mentioned it once already but I'm just repeating it for emphasis.  As much as giving them shields is the more creative option and gives them more choices, Speed 10 is the better choice simply because of the mid-charge issue.


It should lose "Don't Act".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 09:09:27 pm
reinoe, the Monk overhaul actually buffs low-damage Monks and increases their setup variety.  "Overhaul" != "Nerf".  In this case, the Monk (and in particular Punch Art secondary and Monks running setups other than maximum PA) get buffed while max-damage Monks stay mostly the same or maybe become very slightly stronger. 

I don't see a reason why Priest needs Mass-AoE HP Healing.  That's what Summoner and Bard are for.  Cure 1 and Cure 4 are niche but still useful on certain teams, and now it feels like people are just trying to stretch them.  Cure 4 is notable because it bypasses Reflect, giving it use on teams with Reflect Mail and Reflect Ring that still want to run a Priest as their primary healer instead of a Summoner since Reflect dissipates on death to allow the Raise 2.  Cure is probably the main "weak" skill that could do with being changed in some way but it works well enough for what it is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 06, 2013, 09:43:45 pm
(Even if Cure and Cure 4 stay the same, Cure 3 does seem like it needs a bit more leverage over Cure 2 or...something.

Forgetful EDIT: Ugh. I am so damn bad getting distracted considering how constantly I poorly multi-task, but anyway, I on't sure why there needs to be four types of Cure anyway. Seems like we would just kill Cure 2 [or Cure 3], keep Cure 4 as it is, maybe expand Cure 1 to AoE 2 [though that kind steps on Regen] and then turn the "dead" one in something else like Refresh or Nethers Cure [intentional "typo"].)

I didn't literally mean there's "nothing" that gets rid of Undead, reinoe. I just meant that the only consistent thing to get rid of Undead is Holy Water, which still sees only moderate use at best of the status heal Items. Outside of that, literally the only other thing that cures Undead is Refute, which "cures" pretty much everything save Dead, even Charging & Performing (when it really shouldn't).

As for the other things in that post, the only thing I want to add to at present is that I agree that Snipe shouldn't have any of its skills decreased in terms of JP, though I could maybe see the Aims being slightly cheaper. Otherwise, they're correctly priced. That said, the other Don't Act abilities are "oddly" priced enough--Paralyze is also 100 JP and Silf is "only" 150 JP--to make me think that Blackmail really doesn't need to cost double its current cost even with Arm Aim being highest.

Still, I suppose it's one more think consider when thinking about Mediator.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 06, 2013, 10:23:53 pm
Make Cure instant, so that they can save themselves from Poison.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 06, 2013, 11:01:45 pm
Quote from: reinoe on January 06, 2013, 08:06:16 pmI'd rather not see [Snipe skill's] JP decreased.


You really think Leg Aim is worth 200 JP?  Don't Move is one of the lousiest of status ailments.  It only shuts down melee classes with zero support, healing, or range abilities.  Time Mage's Don't Move costs only 100 JP and has an AoE of 2.  Execute is another funny one.  Considering that most archers use guns, spending 200 JP to do what simply one more bullet can do is kind of silly.  Unless I'm failing to see some powerful hidden purpose here, Execute is only good on bow users faced against opponents that stack P-EV.  And in that case the bow user has other problems.

At the very least, I'd like to see the JP cost of these two skills reduced.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 09:09:27 pm
Cure 4 is notable because it bypasses Reflect...


If we're going to keep Cure 4 around for that niche application, can we at least reduce its CT and JP to make it more accessible?  Right now, it's competing with Murasame, items, and gun healing, and those options are better because they're instant.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on January 06, 2013, 11:16:58 pm
This is probably a bad idea, but couldn't we also combine Cure 4 & Wall? I rarely see the two used and a combination of the two might seem more appealing. Something like Full Heal + Protect/Shell on a single target would make a great combo.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 11:44:10 pm
I'd be fine with that, Gaignun.  Making Cure 4 have a shorter CT and MP cost and Cure 1 be instant (and maybe also bypass Reflect) should be enough I think.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 07, 2013, 12:01:52 am
(*facepalms at wasting an hour and a half trying to re-render things that were already re-rendered*)

I could get behind Cure becoming instant and Cure 4 being quicker & lower MP. That still doesn't really solve Cure 2 being "better" than Cure 3 though.

I similarly can get behind Leg Aim getting lowered in cost I guess. Execute is something I've never really behind though, if only because it seems so incredibly niche given Guns have always been more popular than both types of Bows outside of when Hunting Bow was causing 100% Don't Move. With Concentrate coming back, Execute is even more useless really....

That said, with everything else being proposed, even if it won't probably ultimately help it, I can get behind Execute's JP getting lowered too. This if only because it's easier than getting rid of it and trying to think of something else, especially with all the other proposals flying around.

All of Snipe's other JP costs are more than fine though, especially the Breaks and Cover Fire.

Speaking of Cover Fire...what exactly is happening with that? I remember people still thinking it was too "swing-y" in its damage and it really, really is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 09, 2013, 08:20:58 pm
I don't understand what's wrong with Always: Berserk. If they were Always: Berserk, we can change Berserk's CT to something reasonable, instead of lasting forever and ever.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 09, 2013, 09:02:52 pm
(Hmmm...Always: Berserk could possibly work.)

Much like Cursed Ring, due to it being such a simple "solution" for Genji Helmet and Salty Rage not having to "die". Of course, it being simple is why I didn't even think of it; simple solutions are anathema to me.

Of course, there was also the issue of me kind of being ready to kill off Salty Rage for a while since I had wanted Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet to stay around until Raven's latest. Well, that and last time it was Always: Berserk, it was either overpowered or underpowered due to Always: Slow with nothing remotely in the middle. With it possibly blocking Blind now too, which is the only way to stop Concentrate...yeah.

Shrug. It's definitely a possible solution.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 11, 2013, 10:32:46 pm
Biezen bolt needs a nerf down to 6 or 5x MA
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on January 12, 2013, 12:43:51 pm
Random thoughts:

-FFM, you've messed with Golem's AI before. Would it be possible to remove the AI check for Protect/Shell/Regen that looks for the target's HP being below 100%? With that check removed, the AI would hopefully start throwing Protect/Shell/Regen out before units get damaged.

-Since we have Movements that add Fury/Faith, can we get Movements that subtract the user's Fury/Faith upon movement?

-I'm really not liking MP Restore. It almost completely outclasses Absorb MP and Carbuncle (which, IMO, heals too much MP at present also). If I had to make a suggestion, I'd suggest that MP Restore trigger at 50% HP or below.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 12, 2013, 01:59:22 pm
Anti-Warpath might trigger Chicken though, but that's easily countered with a Chicken Immunity. Otherwise, no opinion.

MP Restore is fine. It's effectiveness, like almost all reactions, varies. When you're up against a Lore team and are constantly getting showered in damage, you're the MP Sampo. But up against a team with nothing but Two Handed Air Knives, Hawk's Eyers and Pilgrimage Spellguns, MP Restore is about as useful as having nothing equipped at all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on January 12, 2013, 02:35:05 pm
Also, talking to CT5Holy about this, I wonder. Does Move = 0 conserve 20 CT?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 12, 2013, 02:39:21 pm
I can confirm that. I used Move = 0 as a key component for my Jumping Cursed Thief Strategy. Theoretically, he was so fast, he can jump repeatedly with only 1 or 2 CTs inbetween, making him close to invincible. Didn't work out so well in practice because he wouldn't spam Quickening, but knowing what I know now about Quickening...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 12, 2013, 05:58:10 pm
(Still working on that compiled list. It's mostly finished, actually. I'm just simultaneously editing an hour long match and had to deal with sleep and my bugs list getting wiped yesterday. Regardless, I should have it up within about an hour.)

There is no reason for their to be Reverse-Warpath or Reverse-Pilgrimage abilities. They would be possible, yes, but a lot of times teams do too little damage to each other with just 40/40 & Unyielding as it is. Either of those would make things even worse, especially if "we" are agreeing on changing Spellguns over to Nether spells.

That would make Spellguns even more powerful than they are now, since Nether Spells would become required to damage the user of the spellgun.

Let's not, shall we?

No opinion on the two other things.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 12, 2013, 07:39:22 pm
Quote from: Eternal on January 12, 2013, 12:43:51 pm-Since we have Movements that add Fury/Faith, can we get Movements that subtract the user's Fury/Faith upon movement?


So you hate Phoenix Blade for drawing out games and want to add Movements that can make units pretty much 100% unkillable except against very specific moves?

...

Quote from: Eternal on January 12, 2013, 12:43:51 pm-I'm really not liking MP Restore. It almost completely outclasses Absorb MP and Carbuncle (which, IMO, heals too much MP at present also). If I had to make a suggestion, I'd suggest that MP Restore trigger at 50% HP or below.


Absorb MP isn't really comparable to MP Restore.  They function completely differently.  They physically cannot out-class one another because they counter and work with completely different things.  Carbuncle is kind of like the middle-area between the two of them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 15, 2013, 12:32:06 am
Idea
Wizard staff 10WP  Half: Holy/Dark Immune:Silence, Berseerk
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 15, 2013, 04:56:44 am
While we're discussing giving Berserk a CT (which is a good idea), I would also like to propose giving Blind a CT, as well.  The reason for this is that the AI lacks the foresight to reliably cleanse this ailment.  For example, if a melee unit with Antidote is blinded, it will choose to attack at 50% odds rather than use Antidote.  Keep the CT long (60-90) so that Blind is still debilitating, but make it finite to curb the odds of losing by retardation.

Quote from: Malroth on January 15, 2013, 12:32:06 am
Idea
Wizard staff 10WP  Half: Holy/Dark Immune:Silence, Berseerk


That staff is a little overpowered, Malroth.  Putting both elemental and status resistance on a staff is wildly attractive to mages that don't make strong use of weapons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 15, 2013, 06:53:05 am
Maybe if you took off half holy/dark that should be balanced enough
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 15, 2013, 05:08:41 pm
(I'm not sure why you want to give mages yet another source of block Silence when you've repeatedly said you thought that Nameless Dance was worthless given "all mages block Silence" as it is, Malroth.)

I can get behind Darkness/Blind becoming finite but still having a long-ish CT given the AI's...idiocy when it comes to not healing that thing by itself most of the time. It would be more preferable if we could make it just heal Blind or at least making recognize that physically attacking is a lot less attractive when Blind, especially if it has other (unaffected) options.

I'm guessing that we could just use Wall's CT for this if we can use Reflect's CT to give Berserk a CT, correct? Similarly, Silence would still remain "infinite", correct?

===============

Anyway, while that marinates, I'm just going to take the time to formally post my more "controversial" personal suggestions from the 139 thread here for perusal and such since that particular post of mine was even longer than usual, spoilers aside. Actually, I think I still go back and edit some things in even though I fixed all of the typos (that I saw)....

Regardless, this will be a far more concise version that just contains some of my "crazier" ideas. I'll be ignoring Masamune, Spellguns and, for the most part, Time Mage's stats here:



1. [SQUIRE]: Heal and only Heal becomes a new source of canceling Oil.

2. [PALADIN]: Reraise's CT increases from 0 to 2 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.

3. [ARCHER]: Hawk's Eye's MP cost increases from 8 to 10 and Archer gets at least +2 MP across the board.

4. [PRIEST]: The spell Wall's MP decreases from 25 to 20 and its CT decreases from 3 to 2.

5. [PRIEST]: Holy's X decreases from 16 to 15.

6. [PRIEST]: Priest's Speed increases from 8 to 9, MP decreases by 5, Male Priest's PA decreases from 8 to 7 (and at present its HP doesn't change).

7. [WIZARD]: Death's JP cost decreases from 200 to 150.

8. [WIZARD]: Poison spell goes to Time Mage and Wizard instead gains a composite Bio spell: Old Bio 2 stats except it costs 15 MP, is F(MA*8), has 150 JP and adds Poison instead of Frog (and is actually susceptible to Reflect).

9. [TIME MAGE]: Comet's JP cost decreases from 150 to 100 and it becomes susceptible to Counter Magic (but not Counter Flood).

10. [TIME MAGE]: Stop's MP cost increases from 14 to 16.

11. [TIME MAGE]: Balance goes to Oracle and it gains Poison from Wizard.

12. [TIME MAGE]: Critical Quick's JP cost decreases from 300 to at most 250, Chrono Trigger's JP cost decreases from 300 to at least 250 and it gains "Equip Magegear" Support from now defunct Scholar.

13. [TIME MAGE]: Time Mage's Speed increases from 8 to 10 and its C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.

14. [THIEF]: Bad Luck's CT decreases from 4 to 3, MP cost decreases from 9 to 8, status infliction becomes Random rather than Separate (?), loses Dead, Oil & Slow aspects, is no longer susceptible to Counter Magic and gains the ability to proc Death Sentence, Don't Move or Don't Act. (Also, maybe rename it "Jinx".)

15. [THIEF]: Quickening dies in a fire and is then taken out back and shot for good measure before being buried in an unmarked grave. That or at the very, very, very least it has its MP cost increased from 15 to at least 20.

16. [THIEF]: Power Ruin and Mind Ruin's JP costs decrease from 200 to 150.

17. [THIEF]: Thief's MP increases by at least 1 (but probably more if Quickening dies) and Thief's HP drops by 10 across the board.

18. [MEDIATOR]: Persuade becomes single-target Add: Stop, its X becomes 40 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 300.

19. [MEDIATOR]: Solution becomes Cancel: All Negative statuses and its JP cost increases from 100 to 200 JP.

20. [MEDIATOR]: Refute loses Charging & Performing & its ability to Cancel: All Negative statuses, becoming Cancel: All Positive statuses, and its JP cost decreases from 300 to 200 JP.

21. [MEDIATOR]: Mediator gains "Move -1" Movement from Paladin.

22. [MEDIATOR]: Mediator's HP decreases by about 10 and Mediator's C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.

23. [ORACLE]: Beguile's CT decreases from 5 to 4 and its MP cost decreases from 20 to 16.

24. [ORACLE]: Paralyze's X decreases from 60 to 55 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.

25. [ORACLE]: Sleep's CT increases from 4 to 5, its MP cost decreases from 24 to 20 and its X increases from 60 to 65.

26. [ORACLE]: Oracle gains Balance from Time Mage, which remains the same except that its JP decreases from 300 to 250 and its CT increases from 2 to 3.

27. [ORACLE]: Oracle's HP increases by 10 (probably not necessary), Oracle's MP increases by at least 5 and Male Oracle's PA increases from 7 to 8.

28. [GEOMANCER]: Geomancer's C-EV decreases from 10% to 5%.

29. [LANCER]: Lancer's C-EV increases from 5% to 10% and its MA increases by 1.

30. [SAMURAI]: Bizen Boat becomes subject to M-EV.

31. [SAMUARI]: Murasame's X decreases from 10 to 9.

32. [NINJA]: Tsumazuku dies and Ninja gets something that's worth using, that it will actually use and that will still at least cancel or deny Haste.

33. [NINJA]: Shuriken's MP decreases from 10 to 8.

34. [NINJA]: Kagesougi's MP cost increases from 5 to at least 8 and it loses its ability to cause Don't Act.

35. [DRUID]: Gets Mad Science as Scholar currently has it, except with CT 3 and renamed "Astra"; Heart of the Wild becomes unnecessary. Should probably get a fourth Inner Beast-linked ability with "Heart of the Wild" "dead". I'm not sure about what it should be though at present.

36. [DRUID]: Loses "Equip Magegear" Support, which goes to Time Mage, since it will have "Inner Beast" support its stead.

37. [DRUID]: Its MA is, at most, 11 so that it doesn't go back to having basically Wizard+ stats.


38. [BARD]: Last Song's accuracy increases from 34% to 40%.

39. [DANCER]: Wiznaibus's JP cost decreases from 200 back to 100.

40. [DANCER]: Last Dance's accuracy increases from 34% to 40%.

41. [BARD & DANCER]: Brave UP's JP cost decreases from 200 to 100.





1. [KNIVES]: Throwing Knife's WP increases from 10 to 12 and maybe its Death Sentence proc decreases from 33% to 25% (especially if Death Sentence gets "buffed").

2. [KNIVES]: Dual Cutter's WP increases from 7 to 8.

3. [KNIVES]: Repel Knife's WP decreases from 9 to 7 and it actually adds both Don't Act and Haste at the same time or nothing at all instead of the Separate things it's doing now.

4. [KNIVES]: Mage Masher either keeps the 100% Bizen Boat proc it has now (despite what it says in the Master Guide presently) and its WP decreases from 9 to 8 or it goes back to the 50% Bizen Boat it "should" be and its WP increases from 9 to 10.

5. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Knife's WP decreases from 11 to 9 since Kagesougi's powerful enough without its best Ninjato, sans Hidden Knife, buffing it and having the most WP.

6. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Edge's WP increases from 9 to 11 since it has to compete with Kagesougi still causing Don't Move as it is.

7. [SWORDS]: Phoenix Blade's W-EV decreases from 25% to 20% and it loses Immune: Dead (especially if it gets Immune: Critical).

8. [SWORDS]: (As furtherance of Raven's suggestion): Parry Edge's WP increases from 9 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 20% to 25%.

9. [SWORDS]: Platinum Sword's W-EV increases from 10% to 15%.

10. [SWORDS]: Ice Brand's WP decreases from 14 to 13 and its chance of casting Ice 2 increases from 25% to 33% (or, better yet, 50% Ice).

11. [KATANA]: Asura Knife's WP decreases from 10 to 9.

12. [KATANA]: Bizen Boat's WP increases from 9 to 10.

13. [AXES]: (As a slight tweak of Raven's suggestion): Battle Axe's W-EV decreases from 30% to 25% W-EV, "Decapitate"'s damage decreases from 85% TarMaxHP to (around) 50% TarMaxHP and gets renamed "Maim".

14. [AXES]: Giant Axe's WP decreases from 10 to 9.

15. [AXES]: (As taking Raven's suggestion seriously): Slasher's W-EV decreases from 30% to 20% and it becomes usable with Two Swords.

16. [STAVES]: White Staff's WP increases from 7 to 8 and it becomes Holy Elemental.

17. [STAVES]: Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.)

18. [STAVES]: (As a compromise so that Wizard Staff can change): Rainbow Staff's WP decreases from 10 to 7 and gains Block: Oil & +2 MA.

19. [STAVES]: Wizard Staff's loses +2 MA, becomes Dark Element, gains the ability to cast at 50% the spell Harm (basically Dark element version of Dia, except with a 20% chance to Silence) and gets renamed Black Staff.

20. [STAVES]: (As a furtherance of Dokurider's suggestion): Gold Staff's WP increases from 8 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 10% to 15%.

21. [GUNS]: Romanda Gun's WP decreases from 10 to 8.

22. [GUNS]: Mythril Gun's WP increases from 8 to 10.

23. [LONGBOWS]: Silver Bow gains +2 MA or at least +1 MA.

24. [ACCESSORIES]: (As per formerdeathcorps's suggestion): Defense Ring loses Absorb: Water & Gains Null: Ice.

25. [ACCESSORIES]: (As per formerdeathcorps's suggestion): Jade Armlet loses Null: Ice & Gains Absorb: Water. (I'd suggest calling this Coral Armlet, but that might just be me.)




1. [OIL]: Remains "one-shot" & not applicable with Holy & Dark, but instead gains the ability to block Haste and perhaps even cancel it.

2. [RERAISE]: Changes to (formally) cancel Death Sentence.

3. [BERSERK]: If so possible, then this trades CT with Reflect (or even Wall) and gets a finite CT of, say, 48.

4. [DEATH SENTENCE]: If anything new "should" block Reactions that doesn't already, then it should be finite and it should probably be this.

5. [DEATH SENTENCE]: Changes to cancel Reraise.



Aside from all of that, I've still been thinking (while I have the free time) about what to do with Madlemgen vs. Lamia Harp and Persia & Cashmere if Harps and Cloths are to be included in Equip Magegear and Equip Polearms respectively; both of those and Equip Clothing might need an JP cost of 50, but meh. I think I've found a solution though I'm not too sure how Item Attribute space is looking since Raven isn't a machine and has a life on top of other things to work on.


Anyway, I figure I'll put my proposals for those two "issues" here last night. Well, I'll put those two issues here and a couple of "slight" issues with Monster Dict while I'm talking about Books:


1. Madlemgen: Its proc of 33% Stop (status) instead becomes either 25% Sleep (status) or 33% Sleep (spell). Since Madlemgen is overall "weaker" than Lamia Harp (damage-wise), it gets the stronger proc; Lamia Harp stays as it is with 33% Stop (status).

2. Monster Dict: Its proc becomes either 50% or even 100% since despite Magic Ruin being universally useful--hence it seeing no JP reduction in my Thief proposals--like Speed Ruin, its rather...underwhelming as a proc compared to all the other book's procs. This even though Monster Dict has highest WP chance, partly because the WP variances between the four books are so slight as it is (by necessity), which is fine for the most part. Just not here when it's between a 33% of maybe reducing someone's MP by half of max...versus turning them permanently Undead, killing them with Flare and Stopping them. (Also, can we rename Monster Dict "Bestiary"? It's shorter anyway.)

3. Persia: As per one of Dokurider's older suggestions, this gets Speed +2 instead of Cashmere because Iran, Iran so far away.... *gets shot* But, yeah, besides that it, its stats remain the same since it and Javelin would different for neither to eclipse the other. This could maybe see a slight increase to 15% W-EV since I agreed with Malroth that Cloths could use an overall W-EV boost and maybe could see a slight decrease to 11 since Speed +2 is a lot; then again, Javelin is both better with Jump, comes innately with Shields & Heavy Armor since only Lancers can use Spears initially at present (hmmm...) and can be used with Two Hands. (My only other suggestion on how to improve this would be to give it +2 PA alongside its Initial: Protect, but that's a bit "meh" for a couple of reasons.)

4. Cashmere: By far my most ambivalent suggestion, my idea for this is a furtherance of Malroth's suggestion that Cloths get more W-EV. As such, I would suggest this lose its Item Attribute spot entirely and its stats become 10 WP and 45% W-EV. My initial version of this was originally going to suggest it become Forced Two Hands with 50% W-EV, but that still became too easily impossible hit just with Defend or Blind (rather than "only" nigh impossible to hit, meaning the AI will still target that unit). (My initial suggestion in general was having this add +2 MA alongside its initial: Shell, but like my initial Persia suggestion, that was "meh" for at least a couple of reasons.)

5. Ryozan Silk: This doesn't really need that much improvement since its presently the only Cloth worth using really. (Although as I've said, I've used Persia & Cashmere as they are now before; of course, that was before the perfumes were permanent IIRC and we all know I suck, so....) But, hell, if almost all the other equipment is getting improvements, might as well improve this a bit. It keeps its relatively unit "Initial: Reflect" status and instead just gets more W-EV as per Malroth's suggestion; I'm presently thinking 20% or 25% W-EV seems "fair", especially since that's mostly negated by Dancing anyway if a Dancer (who Dances) is using this.


Yeah....

At the very least, two changes to Persia & Cashmere alongside the changes Raven proposed for Knightswords saves two Item Attribute spaces...even if those get immediately gobbled up by Staves most likely.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
I got time to kill, so I'll respond to some of those suggestions, Damned.  Your list is long, so my answers will be concise.

Quote2. [PALADIN]: Reraise's CT increases from 0 to 2 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.


Reraise has finally been made usable as of 1.39.  Its usefulness is limited by the AI's refusal to use it unless an ally is wounded, and its spammability is limited by its high MP cost for a Chivalry skill.

Quote6. [PRIEST]: Priest's Speed increases from 8 to 9, MP decreases by 5, Male Priest's PA decreases from 8 to 7 (and at present its HP doesn't change).


I believe differences between each gender's stats is hard-coded and, at present, impossible to change.

Quote19. [MEDIATOR]: Solution becomes Cancel: All Negative statuses and its JP cost increases from 100 to 200 JP.
20. [MEDIATOR]: Refute loses Charging & Performing & its ability to Cancel: All Negative statuses, becoming Cancel: All Positive statuses, and its JP cost decreases from 300 to 200 JP.


You are indirectly nerfing Mediators by increasing Refute's JP cost from 300 to 400 here.  Refute is fine as it is now (although I am comfortable with removing its ability to cancel charging/performing; that's what Throw Stone and Sinkhole are for).

Quote22. [MEDIATOR]: Mediator's HP decreases by about 10 and Mediator's C-EV increases from 5% to 10%.


You really think Mediator's are in line to have their HP nerfed?  Their high HP makes up for their unworkable primary skills.

Quote24. [ORACLE]: Paralyze's X decreases from 60 to 55 and its JP cost increases from 100 to 150.


Reducing Paralyze's X value is not necessary.  The counter to Paralyze is and always has been M-EV.

Quote25. [ORACLE]: Sleep's CT increases from 4 to 5, its MP cost decreases from 24 to 20 and its X increases from 60 to 65.


For someone who thinks that Mimic Daravon is too swingy, are you sure you want to increase Sleep's X value?  I'm just asking here.

Quote32. [NINJA]: Tsumazuku dies and Ninja gets something that's worth using, that it will actually use and that will still at least cancel or deny Haste.


I am earnest about my AoE skill that cancels Haste and does damage.  I'll repeat it here:

Kibaku Fuda (Exploding Tag): 4 range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 10 MP, Dmg_B(SP*WP), M-EVable, 100% Cancel: Haste, Regen.

The idea is that the "100%" cancel together with damage puts Draw Out users in a Masamune loop.  If these users are wounded and do not have any other form of healing (and they often don't), they will use Masamune 100% of the time.  The HP recovered from one turn of Regen will not recover the damage Kibaku Fuda dealt, so they will eventually die.  Making Kibaku Fuda depend on SP both keeps its damage from being boosted like Black Magick and makes it feel at home on the Ninja skill set, which will also possess Speed +1.  Depending on how the AI uses this skill, it might be overpowered and in need of tweaks, but that can all be chalked up to growing pains.  Let's give it a chance.

The skill takes M-EV so that it can't be boosted by Hidden Knife, which is native to Ninja.

Quote[KNIVES]: Throwing Knife's WP increases from 10 to 12 and maybe its Death Sentence proc decreases from 33% to 25% (especially if Death Sentence gets "buffed").


Throwing Knife's shtick is its Death Sentence proc, not its damage.  This change makes Throwing Knife less appealing to me.

Quote5. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Knife's WP decreases from 11 to 9 since Kagesougi's powerful enough without its best Ninjato, sans Hidden Knife, buffing it and having the most WP.


I strongly disagree with this.  You're making the Ninja Knife vastly inferior to all other ninjatou by doing this.  As for Kagesougi, Hidden Knife's "Always: Transparent" is the problem, not Ninja Knife.

Quote6. [NINJATO]: (Slight change from Raven's suggestion): Ninja Edge's WP increases from 9 to 11 since it has to compete with Kagesougi still causing Don't Move as it is.


Ninja Edge's WP is already 11, unless I'm missing something.  It's Don't Move proc should be increased to 50% to compete with Short Edge, however.

Quote17. [STAVES]: Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.)


This sounds overpowered.  Superior W-EV, +1 Speed, and elemental strengthening?  Give some of these boons to other staves.  For example, 20 W-EV would work better on Gold Staff, since Gold Staff is intended to be used as a melee weapon.

Quote21. [GUNS]: Romanda Gun's WP decreases from 10 to 8.

22. [GUNS]: Mythril Gun's WP increases from 8 to 10.


You lost me on this one.  Mythril Gun gives +2 MA.  Romanda Gun gives nothing.  Do you still wish to swap their WP?

Quote1. [OIL]: Remains "one-shot" & not applicable with Holy & Dark, but instead gains the ability to block Haste and perhaps even cancel it.


Oil is good enough!  Having it block Haste is going to make the ailment too good.  I even oppose having Oil lock reactions.  Having Oil lock reactions is going to make the spellgun + Oil combo even more destructive, as Projectile Guard will no longer counter it.

Quote5. [DEATH SENTENCE]: Changes to cancel Reraise.


This fairly addresses your concern about Paladin's Reraise.  I like it.

The other stuff I do not feel strongly enough to comment on, although I must warn against making too many changes at once.  Mixing too many things up with each patch makes balance more difficult to achieve. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 16, 2013, 03:43:15 am
(Yes, I agree with you on the "too changed many things = bad balance" thing.)

The thing is, though, that even without these particular "controversial" changes, we kinda of passed the threshold of "too many changes" at once a while ago. "A while ago" being before FFMaster announced that he was basically retooling an entire class on top of everything else we were already asking of him.

I figure we might as well "go for broke" even if some stuff can wait, which is why I've said nothing about Poles and a few other things....

But...yeah, it's pretty inevitable that 139a is probably going to have a bunch of broken things one way or the other. FFMaster is only human (as unexcepted as enough;

Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
Reraise has finally been made usable as of 1.39.  Its usefulness is limited by the AI's refusal to use it unless an ally is wounded, and its spammability is limited by its high MP cost for a Chivalry skill.


Well, to be "fair", the only reason that Reraise was "unusable" to begin with was because it was on White Magic...whose whole deal is healing people with a side-dish of attempting to murder them with Holy Elemental. Since, as you said, the AI won't use Reraise unless the enemy was injured, no one used it even though it was 100%, eschewed Faith and had the same cost it did now (I think); much like how no one uses Wall.

I suppose what "bothers" me if the instant aspect on top of the Death Sentence thing, it being able to self-target (because it just prolongs matches), Regen lasting (so long) past death and the enemy AI being rather dumb about positioning themselves near Dead units with Reraise. If Death Sentence status gets changed though, then I'll concede that might be enough.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 amI believe differences between each gender's stats is hard-coded and, at present, impossible to change.


Wouldn't it be possible by just making Priest's PA growth slightly lower though? It's not like it's terribly important either way, but now I'm curious....


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
You are indirectly nerfing Mediators by increasing Refute's JP cost from 300 to 400 here.  Refute is fine as it is now (although I am comfortable with removing its ability to cancel charging/performing; that's what Throw Stone and Sinkhole are for).


So you would be fine with them both costing 150 JP? Or do you think Refute should just not be changed? Talk Skill as a whole despite three skills being basically unusable by the AI at present?

I only really broke up Refute, aside from it needing to lose Cancel: Charging & Performing, to help fill space after killing Solution, since that thing is going to even more useless with Heretic probably going to Ninja.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
You really think Mediator's are in line to have their HP nerfed?  Their high HP makes up for their unworkable primary skills.


They're arguably third in line after Priest and Thief. They're not at the front and Spellguns' current level of power is probably skewing my perception at least a little bit admittedly. Regardless, I don't see the need for that much HP between the types of weapon they get, being slightly faster than average, having slight more move than average and all their skills being instant. I also felt I needed to "compensate" for suggesting Oracle get more HP for Balance, but since that's probably no longer necessary, yeah....

Still, Mediators are hardly as toothless as people make them out to be even without Mimic Daravon and even with as many problems as their skill set still has.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
Reducing Paralyze's X value is not necessary.  The counter to Paralyze is and always has been M-EV.


I was reducing Paralyze's X value less because it was problematic and more to give people incentive to use Oracle's Sleep. Oracle's Sleep is currently pretty much useless between Oracle's own Paralyze being cheaper, faster & way more effective, especially for mages, and Mediator's Mimic Daravon.

Regardless, are you saying you're fine with my suggestion for its JP to become higher?


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 amFor someone who thinks that Mimic Daravon is too swingy, are you sure you want to increase Sleep's X value?  I'm just asking here.


I think Mimic Daravon's "too swingy" because a) it's unavoidable without Finger Guard regardless of your M-EV, b) it doesn't care about Brave/Fury or Faith either and, the biggest "swingy" factor, c) it's instant. All of that make it vastly better than Oracle's Sleep, which has to also contend with getting sabotage'd by other casters, even on the user's own team; we've all seen Sleep hit only for a Summon Magic-using teammate to hit and wake the Slept target immediately after.

So...yeah, Oracle's Sleep becoming slightly more likely to hit doesn't seem like it would make Oracle's Sleep overpowered to me if that's what you're implying, especially on mages. It would just make it finally worth using.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
I am earnest about my AoE skill that cancels Haste and does damage.  I'll repeat it here:

Kibaku Fuda (Exploding Tag): 4 range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 10 MP, Dmg_B(SP*WP), M-EVable, 100% Cancel: Haste, Regen.

The idea is that the "100%" cancel together with damage puts Draw Out users in a Masamune loop.  If these users are wounded and do not have any other form of healing (and they often don't), they will use Masamune 100% of the time.  The HP recovered from one turn of Regen will not recover the damage Kibaku Fuda dealt, so they will eventually die.  Making Kibaku Fuda depend on SP both keeps its damage from being boosted like Black Magick and makes it feel at home on the Ninja skill set, which will also possess Speed +1.  Depending on how the AI uses this skill, it might be overpowered and in need of tweaks, but that can all be chalked up to growing pains.  Let's give it a chance.

The skill takes M-EV so that it can't be boosted by Hidden Knife, which is native to Ninja.


Oh, I concur. I just couldn't remember/find your suggestion for what the replacement would be and I got distracted by one of the suggestions in Raven's compiled boost being Dispel Magic becomes AoE 1 when that was only talked about a couple of times.

But, yeah, I completely get behind this. I'm so very sick of seeing Masamune so often as it's basically "unpunishable" presently, especially when no one is (somewhat understandably) using Slow 2 & Nameless Dance together as formerdeathcorps claimed worked against it.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
Throwing Knife's shtick is its Death Sentence proc, not its damage.  This change makes Throwing Knife less appealing to me.


So noted. I'm most ambivalent about that particular suggestion anyway.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
I strongly disagree with this.  You're making the Ninja Knife vastly inferior to all other ninjatou by doing this. As for Kagesougi, Hidden Knife's "Always: Transparent" is the problem, not Ninja Knife.

Ninja Edge's WP is already 11, unless I'm missing something.  It's Don't Move proc should be increased to 50% to compete with Short Edge, however.


Oh, I'm not saying "Always: Transparent" isn't a problem (when it comes to Kagesougi) However, considering that people want that stick around for some reason, I figure it would be "best" to then go after the second biggest offender in Ninjato: Ninja Knife. I'm just not sure why the Ninjato with +1 PA needs to be tied for the second strongest WP (after changes) if Kagesougi is all it's going to be used for (primarily). Maybe it could fall to 10 WP, but I'm just wary of it because Kagesougi is already overpowered as it is and isn't taking that huge of hit, as much it losing Don't Act should help.

As for Ninja Edge already being 11 WP, it goes to show that I've never used that thing; I think only one team ever has and it was to very little effect. As it is, Raven's suggestion has it at 9 WP, probably because of the 15% W-EV. I'm just wary that the 50% Don't Move (which Raven also suggested) still won't be enough versus Kagesougi, which will have a greater chance of causing Don't Move with it losing Don't Act. So if Ninja Edge is kept at 9 WP, then it will still be less valuable than Ninja Knife with Hidden Knife when it comes to Kagesougi if Ninja Knife has that much power.

So...yeah. Both of those suggestions are basically because Kagesougi is Kagesougi, though I guess I would be fine with them both becoming 10 WP instead.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
This sounds overpowered.  Superior W-EV, +1 Speed, and elemental strengthening?  Give some of these boons to other staves.  For example, 20 W-EV would work better on Gold Staff, since Gold Staff is intended to be used as a melee weapon.


It probably is, though I'm used to making Healing Staff overpowered. (My Embargo version is probably stupidly overpowered for example.) I actually am ambivalent about the +1 Speed, but a lot of people seem(ed) to want that on Healing Rod and I personally really want the Strengthen Holy & Dark thing, though I suppose it's not like Golden Hairpin won't still have that....

But, yeah, the 20% W-EV is probably better off on Gold Staff, especially since it's what Dokurider originally suggested. I can't remember why I "switched" their W-EV suggestions. There was some reason.... Bah.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
You lost me on this one.  Mythril Gun gives +2 MA.  Romanda Gun gives nothing.  Do you still wish to swap their WP?


Mythril Gun also hasn't really ever been used to my recollection, partly because of its inferior range. It's also partly because of the three classes that innately use guns, only Mediator really gives a damn about MA and relatively small boosts to MA aren't "doing" anything for Talk Skill (in neutral settings). It doesn't really help that Archer's two weapons with +2 MA are now quite usable (and good) and that it might get another one, which basically limits Mythril Gun as it is now to being used by Chemists & Mediators, non-elemental aspect aside.

The solution is probably to just change its Item Attribute to something more useful rather than switch the WP, but I honestly can't think of anything as evidenced by me still not being able to think of a shield and my "meh" Cloth suggestions.


Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 02:25:17 am
Oil is good enough!  Having it block Haste is going to make the ailment too good.  I even oppose having Oil lock reactions.  Having Oil lock reactions is going to make the spellgun + Oil combo even more destructive, as Projectile Guard will no longer counter it.


Oh, I agree on both points. I don't think that Oil really needs a buff, even if I somewhat agree that non-elemental teams should be able to take some advantage of it. I definitely don't agree with it blocking Reactions anymore or, as you already know, with what FFMaster proposed about both making it last and affected by Holy & Dark.

So...this seems like the least "evil" option to attempt to appease people while also strengthening Nameless Dance, which a few people have been saying is toothless (alongside Dance as a whole) and helps it "Slow" people down. Admittedly, this suggestion is also because the AI's fixation on Haste annoys me, however understandable, and Masamune has, again, been running rampant & giving the finger to most attempts to Slow/deny Haste.

*has more time to kill than thou*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 04:27:41 am
Quote from: The Damned on January 16, 2013, 03:43:15 amSo you would be fine with them both costing 150 JP? Or do you think Refute should just not be changed? Talk Skill as a whole despite three skills being basically unusable by the AI at present?


I am of the impression that Refute removing buffs when it's being used defensively - or removing ailments when it's being used offensively - is an appropriate double-edged sword for its universal applicability.  Splitting Refute into two skills is like trading in this double-edged sword for two single-edged ones.  With that said, making the skills cost 150 JP is actually a buff, albeit a mild one.  I'd prefer to keep Refute in one piece, but if splitting it turns out to be more popular, then I would suggest making each skill cost 150 JP.

Quote from: The Damned on January 16, 2013, 03:43:15 amOracle's Sleep is currently pretty much useless between Oracle's own Paralyze being cheaper, faster & way more effective, especially for mages, and Mediator's Mimic Daravon.


You're right about Paralyze being more useful than Sleep.  I personally shy away from Sleep because of its higher CT and JP cost.  Increasing Paralyse's JP cost to 150 solves half of that problem.  Reducing Sleep's CT to 3 can solve the other half.  Then Sleep will work just as nicely on 10 SP Oracles as Paralyze.  Sleep will probably need to have its Vert reduced to 0, though, to keep it balanced.  By the numbers, this makes Sleep and Paralyze nearly identical to each other.  I am fine with that, personally.

Quote from: The Damned on January 16, 2013, 03:43:15 amMythril Gun also hasn't really ever been used to my recollection, partly because of its inferior range. It's also partly because of the three classes that innately use guns, only Mediator really gives a damn about MA and relatively small boosts to MA aren't "doing" anything for Talk Skill (in neutral settings). It doesn't really help that Archer's two weapons with +2 MA are now quite usable (and good) and that it might get another one, which basically limits Mythril Gun as it is now to being used by Chemists & Mediators, non-elemental aspect aside.


Noted.  We could always just swap the WP then remove the Romanda Gun for the time being.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on January 16, 2013, 06:09:25 am
Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 04:27:41 am

Noted.  We could always just swap the WP then remove the Romanda Gun for the time being.

I'm going to interject here.  I would be a sad panda if there is no 8 range gun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 16, 2013, 06:15:21 am
(Indeed, simpler solutions are often better.)

However, they are concise, which is why I never take them. Concise bad!

That said, that solution to Sleep vs. Paralyze vs. Mimic Daravon sounds "more" reasonable. Oracle's Sleep would definitely need vertical 0, though. Getting back to Mimic Daravon vs. Sleep, part of what bothers me about Mimic Daravon is that it has vertical 3, though in action that's rarely, if ever, been a factor, at least in ARENA.

I'm not sure about removing Romanda Gun entirely, if only because of its 8 Range. Then again, that would help out Long Bow.... Are you talking about merging Romanda Gun's range with Mythril Gun as well? Or just its WP? Because I could probably get behind former, but the latter is a bit of tougher sell.

As for splitting Refute, yeah, I'm aware it's purposely a double-edged sword, even if it loses Cancel: Performing & Charging. Again, the only real reason I "split" it is because with Ninja getting Heretic and AI not using Solution (or Preach or, for some reason, Persuade), Mediator could stand to have another skill that's actually, you know, useful. I suppose I could just taken my suggestion for Persuade--"Stall"--and had that replace Solution as well, but since Stop kinda competes with CT00...yeah.

I mean, if almost everyone is calling Mediator so toothless as to defend Mimic Daravon being an instant AoE Sleep, then a mild buff for Mediator shouldn't be too horrible. Right?

At the very least, splitting Refute apart would make it easier for people to tell just what the hell it's supposed to cancel since pretty much everyone was surprised about the Charging & Performing thing.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 06:51:08 am
Ah, I forgot that Mythril Gun had shorter range than Romanda Gun, even after reading your post.  Yeah, Mythril Gun would get 8 range, as well.

As for Mediators, is the AI smart enough to use Solution on the opposing team?  I ask because I never bothered testing it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on January 16, 2013, 11:07:09 am
Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 06:51:08 am
As for Mediators, is the AI smart enough to use Solution on the opposing team?  I ask because I never bothered testing it.


AI will definetly use Solution on enemy units if its set up with a non-damaging weapon or if it has no other damage sources. Other than that, I found that it is used very rarely.

QuoteAgain, the only real reason I "split" it is because with Ninja getting Heretic and AI not using Solution (or Preach or, for some reason, Persuade)


Same with Preach; The AI does use it, but barely. But it's a lot harder to get the AI to use it though, unlike with Solution. I have sometimes seen it used sorta like how AI uses Reraise, and on occasion, used when a unit has a decent to high percentage of its HP missing, but overall, the AI is quite weird with Preach and when it decides to use it.

Persuade, on the other hand, I have never seen it used at all in any given situation. With that said, I kinda agree that Persuade desperately needs something done to it or it needs to die entirely. Because that thing is useless.

QuoteAt the very least, splitting Refute apart would make it easier for people to tell just what the hell it's supposed to cancel since pretty much everyone was surprised about the Charging & Performing thing.


I like this idea myself. I would say give the Cancel: Charging/Performing part of Refute to Persuade, but doing that will most likely just make it a worse Throw Stone. Unless it's given a bit of AoE maybe; say AoE 1, Vert 0 or more range than Throw Stone or something.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 12:40:10 pm
How feasible is creating a status effect that locks the Attack command?  If specialty skills like Solution are tough to use because the AI would sooner attack, then we could slap this status effect on a new bag to prevent the AI from attacking.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 16, 2013, 06:48:35 pm
(*yawns because he's lazy*)

So...I finally decided to double check a couple of things about the latest iteration of ARENA in FFTPatcher and there doesn't seem like there are any accidental AI Behaviors that FFMaster did that's preventing the AI from using Persuade, Preach or Solution. Preach or Solution were updated, so the AI knows they add Status now, though they don't have "Target Enemy" or "Target Ally", which I doubt would change anything since Heretic shows that the AI knows what Innocent does anyway. Similarly, Persuade isn't changed at all, so I'm really not sure what the hell the problem is there since CT = 00 is usually at the top of the AI's list.

*looks at Last Dance*

Completely unrelated to what we're talking about now, Repel Knife's ISC is 1D and it actually is All Don't Act & Haste. So I'm not sure what the hell happened against Dokurider with it seemingly separating when I don't think he was blocking anything. I'll have to look at the video again....

I'll let someone else answer Gaignun's question since I still suck at coding, though that status effect obviously need to Block Berserk and maybe even Frog (or be canceled by both) as well.

Quote from: Otabo on January 16, 2013, 11:07:09 am
AI will definetly use Solution on enemy units if its set up with a non-damaging weapon or if it has no other damage sources. Other than that, I found that it is used very rarely.


So basically only if it has Healing Staff, Murasame or one of the few (read: four) elemental weapons it innately has access to is absorbed and it has no other recourse? This despite three of those elemental weapons & Solution (read: the Innocent status) being anathema to each other?

Great.

Ironically, if Spellguns became Nether-shooting Spellguns, then Solution would have a bit more use since then their users wouldn't care about the Faith stat anyway. However, considering Oil exists, Solution in that context would still be inferior even against absorb unless they also block Oil, which is still somewhat unlikely on absorbers still.

So, unless (or perhaps even) we decide that Romanda Gun or Mythril Gun takes a page from Opera Vector and becomes a healing gun, Solution seems automatically outclassed by a combination of Heretic/Mushin no Shin on Ninja, Mediator having Blackmail, Insult & Mimic Daravon and Gokuu Rod existing. (That or make one of the Knives into a Healing Shiv.)


Quote from: Otabo on January 16, 2013, 11:07:09 am
Same with Preach; The AI does use it, but barely. But it's a lot harder to get the AI to use it though, unlike with Solution. I have sometimes seen it used sorta like how AI uses Reraise, and on occasion, used when a unit has a decent to high percentage of its HP missing, but overall, the AI is quite weird with Preach and when it decides to use it.


I see. When formerdeathcorps reported that he had seen the AI use it, I thought it was just some type of "obscure" set-up as with Heretic, but if that's the case, then Preach should probably die too. Only reason I didn't suggest "killing" it was because, unlike Solution, no other skill adds Faith. The only thing that adds Faith is the Muramasa katana, but that's probably more than enough really, especially with Concentrate back, Hidden Knife still existing and Muramasa being compatible with both Two Swords & Two Hands.


Quote from: Otabo on January 16, 2013, 11:07:09 am
Persuade, on the other hand, I have never seen it used at all in any given situation. With that said, I kinda agree that Persuade desperately needs something done to it or it needs to die entirely. Because that thing is useless.


I concur despite still finding it odd that AI isn't using it and wanting to "investigate" more. I think it would be better off becoming Single-target Add: Stop. This especially if (almost) everyone agreed that something as common as Hell Ivy has a change of causing AoE Stop, Chronos Tear now exists (cheaply) and Heal & Jade/Coral Armlet are likely to become more popular in use come 139 anyway.


Quote from: Otabo on January 16, 2013, 11:07:09 amI like this idea myself. I would say give the Cancel: Charging/Performing part of Refute to Persuade, but doing that will most likely just make it a worse Throw Stone. Unless it's given a bit of AoE maybe; say AoE 1, Vert 0 or more range than Throw Stone or something.


I have to disagree with that suggestion, especially with the AoE 1 aspect. Admittedly, I thought of giving the Cancel: Charging/Performing aspect its own separate ability after splitting up Refute, but then I realized both the Throw Stone issue and that it quickly would become obnoxious, especially with all the other ways that Mediators have of shutting down mages anyway. Additionally, unlike Throw Stone, it can go through enemies that are in the way since it isn't Direct and thus doesn't need Line of Sight, which is one of the things that balances Throw Stone since the M-EV aspect of that is moot.

So making it AoE 1 to try to compensate for Throw Stone essentially being 100% would probably end up making mages rather worthless when they already have still have problems as it is. That or it would end up still being inferior to Mimic Daravon due to that still having Vert 3 even with as common as Defense Ring currently is.

That basically makes the very idea of it kinda of lose-lose really.

That said, having thought about it this, I did have an ability that I was going to suggest before I figured that Preach could maybe stay around for another iteration:


Hush: Rng 3, AoE 0, Vert 3, Add: Silence - Costs 100 JP.


With that, Mediator still gets anti-mage technique since it's losing one, continues its competition with Oracle without obviating Oracle's Silence Song and gets another 100 JP ability after losing three of the four and, most importantly, it gets a useful technique that it will actually use.

Between it getting redone Persuade/Stall, Hush & a mini-boost from Refute getting broken up, Mediator should no longer be as "toothless" as almost everyone is claiming it is, even if something eventually happens to Insult or Mimic Daravon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 19, 2013, 04:03:58 pm
(*finishing up editing videos*)

While waiting for that Mediator proposal to get some type of response one way or the other, I'll say something else that's been bugging me as of late: Tornado & Quake seem like the might need to be slowed down to CT 3 (again). They actually hurt and are usable now, but for something that can hit that hard over AoE 2, CT 2 seems a bit...short.

Then again, it might be Scholar MA partly skewing things, but still....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 20, 2013, 04:00:01 am
Idea   Black Magic: Replaces Poison 300JP 20MP  CT 5 Target self adds Faith,Reflect,Defend
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 20, 2013, 05:36:49 am
I don't know about that skill Malroth, but I do know that we need more access to Reflect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on January 20, 2013, 06:38:28 am
The problem is the AI doesn't like statii like Protect/Shell/Reflect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on January 20, 2013, 06:57:25 am
Quote from: FFMaster on January 20, 2013, 06:38:28 am
The problem is the AI doesn't like statii like Protect/Shell/Reflect.


The units I had in Late To The Party used Protect and Shell 2 well enough.

And they'll use it over other things that could be more useful at that moment. It's not that they don't like it, Protect/Shell is just makes the AI wonky(er).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 20, 2013, 08:45:24 am
But it does like defend for some unknown reason so using it as a way of telling the AI to buff itself seems to work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 20, 2013, 08:56:58 pm
(Yeah, the idea would definitely use that because of Defend. It's part of the reason wy the AI whores Nurse.)

That said, I can't get behind it at all, though more because of Self Faith. I could maybe get behind Self Reflect & Defend as a replacement for Heretic on Thief given that's losing at least one ability and no one, including myself, has thought of a "suitable" Houkouton replacement to give to them for it. However, Thief would definitely need to lose Quickening if that was the case (which I think needs to happen anyway) since Reflect & Defend is already rather...obnoxious with enough evasion, which Thief definitely has.

It would probably be better to "package" Reflect with healing or Regen (or Reraise) if we want the AI to be able to use it. Reflect lasting "forever" with its 0 CT, especially if its former CT is going to Berserk to make that finite, and Reflect Mail & Reflect Ring existing make me extremely ambivalent to this though, as much as another source would be "nice".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 23, 2013, 01:59:49 am
Quote from: Gaignun on January 16, 2013, 12:40:10 pm
How feasible is creating a status effect that locks the Attack command?  If specialty skills like Solution are tough to use because the AI would sooner attack, then we could slap this status effect on a new bag to prevent the AI from attacking.


I'm scratching my quote here to propose something that's equally effective, yet is much easier to realise: implement a bag that heals on hit.

This is one of those things that looks stupid on paper, but has a real purpose: it takes the attack command away from the wearer.  For reasons unbeknownst to me, the AI likes to smack opponents even when there's no reason to.  By implementing a healing weapon that is usable by all classes (ie. a bag), players can forcibly prevent any unit from attacking.  For example, Mediators use abilities like Solution when they have literally no other form of offense available.  If you want a Mediator to spam Solution, you need to deprive that Mediator of all offensive abilities, including the attack command.  Unfortunately, Mediators do not have access to a healing weapon, so you can't pull this off without Equip Magegear or Equip Heavy Blade.

We don't even need a new bag for this.  Simply make one of the existing bags heal on hit.  The H and P Bags are the best candidates.

In the interest of making "Innocent" strategies effective, it is also worthwhile to go ahead with The Damned's proposal of splitting Refute into two abilities.  A Mediator with Refute attempts to remove the Innocent status on friendly Flash Hat wearers.  This is problematic for teams that try to use a Mediator for Solution and an Innocent Ninja for -ton skills.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 24, 2013, 06:02:59 pm
I was testing out the Air Knife today and, yes, it does proc alright...Darkness.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 24, 2013, 06:06:07 pm
I don't know if anyone said this already but the other night me and FFMaster were talking the other night about changing the magic guns to nether guns where they shoot nether fire/bolt/ice. Formula can be same as the nether spells for wizards, less brave = more damage

And perhaps a status gun as well. If anything that can replace mythril gun it can be a gun that inflicts status.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 24, 2013, 06:29:58 pm
Are you guys even sure that just swapping from a Faith Spell to a Nether Spell is going to automatically take on the Nether properties, or is it just going to just take the Y value out of the spell and keep on trucking?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on January 24, 2013, 06:43:33 pm
It should be fine. It just loads XA = WP instead of XA = MA. If we really wanted, we could make it shoot things like Grand Cross as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 24, 2013, 07:27:21 pm
Kagesougi in a can, eh?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 24, 2013, 07:58:28 pm
I was thinking about the innocent status. Let's say we have a cursed ring unit with flash hat, does that lower the chances of raise 2 hitting? because even when equipped with a aegis shield which gives 30% M-EV Raise 2 can still hit at a high rate (at least that's what I remember)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on January 24, 2013, 09:20:07 pm
Raise 2 isn't evadable. Innocent status will reduce hit rate though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 24, 2013, 09:22:07 pm
do you think it should be considering that it would help an undead unit with innocent or would it be too much evasion
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 25, 2013, 01:17:48 pm
Does M-EV apply when using Raise 2 on dead units?

Also, is anyone comfortable with letting EV apply when performing?

Quote from: BarrenAnd perhaps a status gun as well. If anything that can replace mythril gun it can be a gun that inflicts status.


I don't mind this suggestion.  Make it proc something silly, like Innocent or Faith.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on January 25, 2013, 01:47:05 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on January 25, 2013, 01:17:48 pm
Does M-EV apply when using Raise 2 on dead units?


No, the only things that apply are faith(caster & target), innocent, faith(status), zodiac compatibility and MA to an extent.

As for performing having EV...I'm neutral on it. It would be interesting to see some evasion builds on performers.

Status guns seems like a fun idea. Although we need to find some statuses fit for it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 25, 2013, 02:01:41 pm
Maybe we can do a gun that inflicts faith by chance like Tetragrammation.

If you all know the anime Chrono Crusade, its a gun with high power against demons with low backlash developed by "Elder" Hamilton for the final confrontation against Aion, is given to Rosette by the Father Remington and later used by Chrono.

That can replace the mythril gun I think. It doesn't need 2 MA really
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 26, 2013, 01:09:43 am
(I'm neutral to a bag healing on hit though I lean towards it, surprisingly neutral to Raise 2 taking evasion, surprisingly against Performing taking evasion and against a Faith-adding gun, though that's partly dependent on how it would add Faith, how frequently and the CT of the Faith status itself.)

Speaking of which, if Solution (and possibly Preach) are able to be made more usable, then Innocent (and by extension Faith) might have to have their CTs lessened. Even if the Innocent status isn't as huge as a "fuck you" to faith-based magick as it was in vanilla, where it basically negated it, it still greatly minimizes the damage here and it being readily applicable for 64 turns could be a...problem. This especially since, if we're splitting up Refute, I would suggest neither split ability cancel Innocent (or Faith or Charging or Performing).

Then again...given that one of the composite things Raven listed in the 139 changes thread was Dispel being moved to AoE 1 and that cancels Innocent....Still, that's based on Faith, so...yeah.

The Faith status's CT getting lessened is less because it's a problem at 64 CT, though Faith-Lore for that long is rather obnoxious, and more of Innocent and Faith status having obvious parity (and thus only two things blocking either). Faith-units tend to die before Faith expires anyway, unlike Innocent units, so....


Quote from: Gaignun on January 23, 2013, 01:59:49 am
In the interest of making "Innocent" strategies effective, it is also worthwhile to go ahead with The Damned's proposal of splitting Refute into two abilities.  A Mediator with Refute attempts to remove the Innocent status on friendly Flash Hat wearers.  This is problematic for teams that try to use a Mediator for Solution and an Innocent Ninja for -on skills.


Before I concur, I have to correct you and say this was actually Wiz's suggestion...that I was actually initially against as well. But, yeah, I've come to agree with the idea myself.

Anyway, if we're splitting up Refute into two abilities that cost 150 JP, then there are at least three things that "should" be done:


1. Neither ability continues to cancel Innocent, Faith, Charging or Performing.

2. The positive-canceling ability cancels Haste, Protect, Shell, Regen, Reraise, Reflect, Float, Defending & maybe Transparent and has a higher chance of hitting.

3. The negative-canceling ability cancels Blind/Darkness, Poison, Berserk, Death Sentence, Frog, Oil, Undead, Slow, Don't Move, Don't Act, Silence & maybe Sleep, Charm, Petrify and/or Stop and has a lower chance of hitting.


When it comes to naming them, I'd actually suggest switching the "Refute" (or "Refutation") name to "positive-canceling" ability. When it comes to the "negative-canceling", I'd actually like for it to be named "Solution" (or "Solve") and for Solution, even if it's staying as "Add Innocent" for now, to be renamed "Reject".

When I say "maybe" to canceling Transparent for the new Refute, I say that because the only thing that even still adds Transparent is the (accursed) Hidden Knife, and that's Always: Transparent. I'm not sure if the AI would waste turns trying to Refute it away despite that. Besides, it can be dispelled on hit if Hidden Knife gets broken (which has yet to happen anyway), so....

(To be truthful, the same thing might happen with Float and Defending, but those at least have more sources and I almost forgot about them anyway, so.... Besides, if Defending is going to stay as it is with doubling Evasion and a strong Blind-adding Ninjato in addition to Kagesougi & Grand Cross's strength, then Defending could actually use something to cancel it.)

As for saying "maybe" to Sleep, Charm, Stop and/or Petrify on, well, obviously the negative-canceling version cancels a lot more than the positive-canceling version by default. I'm a bit tired of Charm getting canceled by pretty much every non-Item negative status under the sun even with Charm's potential turn-around. As for Sleep, well, I'm just trying to be consistent with regards to vanilla Talk Skill not affecting Sleeping units; I'd rather the new Refute not be able to affect Sleeping units either really. As for Stop & Petrify, I'm less insistent on those being additional exemptions. I'd rather just that Heal be allowed to have more use in the former sense and in the latter sense, enough things already cancel and block Petrify, even if it is another form of death; both being exempted would logically consistent with the sleep exemption, but meh.

That still doesn't solve the problem of Persuade, but I suppose it's a start.

Quote from: Dokurider on January 24, 2013, 06:02:59 pm
I was testing out the Air Knife today and, yes, it does proc alright...Darkness.


Told you so. [/sing-song]


Quote from: Barren on January 24, 2013, 06:06:07 pm
I don't know if anyone said this already but the other night me and FFMaster were talking the other night about changing the magic guns to nether guns where they shoot nether fire/bolt/ice. Formula can be same as the nether spells for wizards, less brave = more damage


Yeah, I brought that idea up about two weeks ago and a couple of people, like Gaignun, at least agreed about possibly entertaining the idea, if only because it wasn't powered up by Pilgrimage (or Faith Up). Well, that and it would no longer almost single-handedly obviate attack mages.

It would also make for a good "counter" if Innocent strategies become more viable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 26, 2013, 02:54:34 pm
Quote from: TrueLight on January 25, 2013, 01:47:05 pm
No, the only things that apply are faith(caster & target), innocent, faith(status), zodiac compatibility and MA to an extent.


I support making Raise 2 take M-EV, then.  People won't have to swear by Flash Hats when playing with Cursed Rings.

Also, can we change Defense Armlet to Oven Mitt and give it an appropriate sprite?  There aren't enough cooking references in Kitchen Stadium Arena.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 26, 2013, 09:42:25 pm
(Speaking of Defense Armlet/Oven Mitt, can we talk about making it actually worth using? Because, at present, it's pretty the only accessory that we haven't talked about improving even though it's still not seeing use and never really has.)

I'm actually somewhat...against Raise 2 taking M-EV, since Cursed Ring actually already seems more than usable enough at present, especially since, for some reason, it seems like Cursed Ring causes the dead unit to come back on the fourth turn 100% of the time. I wonder if it's because it's an artificial Always: status caused by an Item rather than a "natural" one since it doesn't seem like FFMaster has changed in any coding with regards to Undead (yet). Hmmmm....

That said, I suppose that I could maybe get behind it if we get an assurance that Seal Evil & Consecration are among the abilities that are getting their JP reduced alongside things like the change to the Cures. Otherwise, two Cursed Rings seems like they could get as obnoxious as two Phoenix Blades currently are, especially since Cursed Ring increases Speed and the AI is blind to uncertain Undead resurrection unlike assured Reraise resurrection.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on January 27, 2013, 07:00:50 pm
I wasn't quite sure where else to put this question but...

How does one calculate the CT of Jump skills?  It's something I couldn't figure out when the original came out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on January 27, 2013, 08:36:11 pm
INT( 100/2xspeed)

so CT 6 for a 8 speed unit
CT 5 for 9 or 10 speed
CT 4 for speeds 11 to 13
CT 3 for speeds 14 to 17

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on January 27, 2013, 08:51:07 pm
Round up the number you get for (50/Speed).

8 Speed -> 7 CT Jump
9 Speed -> 6 CT Jump
10-12 Speed -> 5 CT
13-16 Speed -> 4 CT
17-24 Speed -> 3 CT

And I believe Haste does not factor into the equation.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 28, 2013, 02:50:21 am
(Haste indeed does not factor into Jump or else it would have been even more obnoxiously overpowered in vanilla where it sped up Speed by 50% instead of the current 25%.)

For everything you want to know about Jump, just look at the section 2.3 of the Battle Mechanics Guide (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197339-final-fantasy-tactics/faqs/3876) (or BMG) by Aerostar. That guide is actually pretty much still accurate for most of what's underlying ARENA still and it has very few errors, most of the ones I remember being mere typological ones.

Since we're speaking of Jump and I mentioned earlier today because of the video I put up, I'm beginning to wonder if it needs to lose its 100% accuracy or at least have its Spear multiplier decreased from 1.5 to 1.3 or something. It's one of the few techniques that AI uses perfectly, which would reason not to touch it...if it weren't so damn damaging at 100% accuracy and with periods of complete invulnerability that the enemy can't see until it's off the ground. When combined with it having range 6 (by necessity), most Spears auto-increasing speed, being the only skill that has a loophole that allows all four units on a team to use it and, of course, Quickening still being a round for some reason, yeah....

I've been thinking it's kind of a problem for a while, but I couldn't really decide on a way to "fix" it that's actually meaningful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on January 28, 2013, 10:23:43 pm
>AI uses Jump perfectly.

:|

Go home Damned, you're drunk.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 28, 2013, 10:34:23 pm
"Oh look, my 221 HP mage fell asleep! I better wake him up with a 600+ damage Jump!"
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on January 29, 2013, 01:34:16 am
Meanwhile, another unit decides to kill the sleeping and about to be Jumped on person anyway, making the Jump a turn waste.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 29, 2013, 02:03:59 am
(Heh, forgot about that "minor" imperfection, partly because I hardly ever use Jump myself.)

Aside from that, the AI pretty much uses Jump perfectly. We should totally look into that and everything, but it's pretty bottom of the pile in terms of priority, especially with everything else we are asking FFMaster to do. Well that and, like Mime, no one has looked into it despite it going on since Vanilla.

Regardless, it remains that Jump might be a "bit" of a problem, but it's one that I'm fine leaving until 140. I was just reminded of it while recording Reks's team.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 30, 2013, 09:45:42 am
So no go on my faith gun idea?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 30, 2013, 05:07:12 pm
I'm for it if it has a low proc rate (33%).  It will make for a nice, reliable counter to 40 Brave 40 Faith teams.

FFMaster has the final say, of course.  FFMaster: would you mind throwing together a list of changes you'll go ahead with in 1.39 before actually going ahead with them?  A lot of propositions were tossed around in the "1.39 changes" thread, so there will need to be some pruning.  If you'd like assistance, I can maintain a list of changes featuring hard numbers so people can look at them and ask for tweaks. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 30, 2013, 07:02:58 pm
I personally don't mind the proc rate being low as long as its implemented. But like you say, FFM is the judge
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 04, 2013, 07:44:33 am
Just so that it doesn't go without being said: Dance/Sing are incorrectly flagged for Silence and thus should be remedied (not by making Silence effect Song/Dance, you dummies).

EDIT: Also, Air Knife is procing Darkness *and* Silence. As in Blizzard's proc. wtf ffm?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 07, 2013, 02:57:48 am
(I knew I was seeing the chance to cause Silence there at times. I'm beginning to wonder if the "problem" that [I think] Repel Knife is experiencing is caused by the proc hack that FFMaster is using, especially since I don't know if that's what's causing problems with Bow Gun & Shieldrender.)

Oh, so Dance & Sing are flagged for Silence? I was wondering why the AI was suddenly trying to use Silence Song to stop them. Hunh.

Anyway, while there's still been next to no feedback about my proposal for Talk Skill overall aside from splitting up Refute, the video I just posted of reinoe vs. DarkxFatal shows that the AI will use Preach. Now, whether it will use Preach and then be able to actually do something with it...yeah....

With that proved multiple times in go through makes me think that, for now, Preach & Solution/Reject are fine to stay around for now, especially if the healing Bag idea goes through. That still does nothing to solve Persuade's disuse though.

Anyway, some other things that have been bugging that I otherwise forgot to mention or having harped enough:


1. Quake & Tornado go back to being CT 3: IIRC, we made them quicker because they couldn't compete with Summon Magic...back when all of Summon Magic was unavoidable. Right now, for the amount of damage it does and the AoE it has, it's a bit much to be that quick even without Short Charge. Admittedly, this, like many things related to Lore, may be somewhat skewed by Scholar's somewhat busted stats and the issue with Golden Hairpin doing too much, but I don't think it's that much to ask. I'm even tempted to ask that they reduced from MA*9 to MA*8, but, meh. Baby steps.


2. Battle Song & Magic Song: I still don't see why these got an increase of 16% when they were already cheap and pretty much nothing can be done to stop them. They seemed fine at 50% and even if Monk skills also shouldn't be quadratic anymore come 139, I'm not really sure why these should stay at 66%.


3. Coral Sword's proc goes up to 50%: Because, right now, that sword kind of sucks and I'm not even sure it's proc is working. Besides, the Frog chance off that is only like 10% at best.


4. Reraise either remains instant but unable to target self or gets a small CT boost: Self-explanatory what I'm asking for here. Games get drawn out enough as it is between Dragon Spirit, HP Restore, Cursed Ring and now Phoenix Blade. Being able to Reraise one's self as soon as they get up is...irksome. I'd prefer the former rather than the latter (if Reraise has to stay around at all).


5. ....


I'll actually save the fifth thing for 139 changes thread since I'm going to post there anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 12, 2013, 12:15:31 am
(Ugh. I'm double posting in here even more of late. Well, being gone for at least a week should "fix" that.)

Since I didn't want to continue discussing this in the video thread, I'll reaffirm my stance about Bards & Robes and the other two things.

As said before, I can't support Bards getting Robes, mostly for reasons that other people already pointed out. I'd have to hear what Javelin II would do before I can get behind it, but right now I'm against that as well since Spears are more than fine & getting fixed and, if anything, Jump is slightly overpowered between the ability loophole and its damage potential & sure-hit aspect & invulnerability & nigh flawless AI use; this especially with Quickening around.

I'm behind Nether Guns since I proposed that before you apparently separately proposed it to FFMaster (or he did to you, I'm not sure).

*waits for anyone to commit on the Mediator stuff or anything else above*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 12, 2013, 12:27:10 am
Oh that's right, I was going to comment on that. Just let me fetch my magic conch...

(http://en.spongepedia.org/images/thumb/c/c2/DaConch.jpg/180px-DaConch.jpg)

1. Yes

2. Try asking again

3. Maybe someday

4. Follow that seahorse
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 12, 2013, 07:40:38 pm
(But I already have a Kingdra! [That's probably starved to death by now like my other biological Pokemon.])

Okay, so before I "really" leave and blah blah, there are two more things that are nagging me that I, of course, forgot about:


1. VALKYRIES sucks: Despite its awesome, it's even more unfair than TIGER which a bunch of people were agreeing was a bad map and arguably more unfair than even END. I'm pointing this out less because it's been problematic and at present more because I find myself surprised it's on Gaignun's "approved" map list when a couple of other maps that seem okay aren't. I don't know. It just occurred to me that it's a worse TIGER, especially since there's no "obvious" way to fix it.


2. Hawk's Eye could probably stand to lose Poison: Considering Hawk's Eye does a crapload of damage, is unavoidable and adds Oil, I don't see why it needs to add Poison as well. It losing access to Poison would help make using Poison Bow attractive now that it's losing WP to Silencer (as it still should). Otherwise, Poison Bow seems like it's going kind of get screwed over, especially since it's "only" 50% versus 100% Poison plus Oil plus built-in Concentrate. ...Yeah.

(For the record, I would still think that Hawk's Eye would need a bit of an MP cost boost even if it lost Poison because I think it's that good. Also for the record, I would also rather like if Kagesougi lost Poison considering it kind of devalues Shuriken, but considering how ambivalent most people were to it losing Don't Act despite Kagesougi's obvious power, I'll cut my losses for now.)

*disappears into the ether...again*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 12, 2013, 09:56:55 pm
Contrary to what the Damned things, Mage Masher's Bizen Boat proc is not 100%, but I think it should be.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on February 13, 2013, 12:07:56 am
Quote from: The Damned on February 12, 2013, 07:40:38 pm


( but considering how ambivalent most people were to it losing Don't Act despite Kagesougi's obvious power, I'll cut my losses for now.)

*disappears into the ether...again*


Several people actually spoke in favor of Kagesougi losing DA.  Since 'sougi procs so many potentially crippling things, especially against mages if they're lucky enough to survive.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 13, 2013, 02:14:56 am
Yeah, I agree with Kagesougi losing Don't Act over here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on February 13, 2013, 05:45:56 am
Quote from: Dokurider on February 13, 2013, 02:14:56 am
Yeah, I agree with Kagesougi losing Don't Act over here.


Hear hear.

Nothing to add or complain about on my end. Damned and such pretty much hit all the nags I had. Also, like he said concerning my Nanten Thieves team, Jump could use a slight nerf in it's power, at least with spears.

But then again, my Dancers were made to exploit the damage from Jump in that way, and not too many other teams have been made for such, I believe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on February 13, 2013, 10:46:17 pm
Re: balancing Hidden knife...

How about lowering it's WP to 5?  It still grants pseudo concentrate and I never realized that the 100% hit rate extends to things like the -tons.  Also a ninja dual-wields 2 weapons most of the time.  So while Hidden Knife is granting Concentrate the other the weapon will hit 100% of the time.  A team with two ninja weilding a hidden knife each, and then the other two units have Concentrate.  A team like that would be a little scary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 14, 2013, 06:22:55 am
A team like that would still be subject to Blind not to mention a little lacking in the damage department. 8 WP is already pretty low as is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on February 15, 2013, 05:17:58 pm
Here's my question in case no one else has thought of it before: If any of you saw some of my latest videos you'll notice that one of Ahong's team is sporting a Javelin II. Should we allow it for 1.39?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 15, 2013, 05:32:32 pm
If it is allowed into 139, it definitely need a WP drop, because it obviates Dragon Whisker.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on February 15, 2013, 05:59:12 pm
Maybe we could have Javelin II be Forced 2 Hands. That way, if you wanted a shield you could go with Dragon Whisker instead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 15, 2013, 06:24:37 pm
Might work, but I'd rather see something more unique than Dragon Whisker + 1 - shield.

Seeing that Mediator might possibly be dropping it's 00 CT effect for a Stop effect come next update, what if we lowered Javelin II's WP and gave it a 25% chance of procing 00 CT?

Of course, we could always just eat it's space and give it to a more deserving/needy item class instead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on February 15, 2013, 08:17:16 pm
Quote from: TrueLight on February 15, 2013, 05:59:12 pm
Maybe we could have Javelin II be Forced 2 Hands. That way, if you wanted a shield you could go with Dragon Whisker instead.


Funny you said that, because I brought that up when talking to Dokurider on IRC chat
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 17, 2013, 03:57:45 pm
Hey so who asked why nobody uses Titan? Because I can explain why.

See, most people will not run an Earth skill unless it has sniping potential, see Kiku and Earth Slash, works into an absorb strategy, Quake and Earth Dragon, or otherwise has a remarkable property. Titan is none of these things. 1+ to Y isn't remarkable by any stretch of the imagination. I'd suggest giving it better range instead.

While the +Y can be useful, see Jumza's Dancer team, I think it would be more useful in general with +Range instead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on February 18, 2013, 01:47:49 am
I always thought the real reason was that people were still wary of float canceling it, so unless the move offered some other useful novelty (Quake's low ct, high area of effect; kiku-ichimoji/earth slash's flat, easily scalable damage) people shied away from it. That's certainly the reason why I avoided such moves for quite a while - if I even picked kiku, it was simply because I needed the extra range!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 18, 2013, 05:51:03 am
That's what I said. I think it's unwarranted nowadays because Float has fallen on the wayside. Float movement is cheap enough to grab, but Time Magic pretty spendy. Diamond Helmet is fine until you die. Feather Boots are...Feather Boots. And the only skill that adds Float is locked up in Lore and is also low on usage despite adding Reraise and Regen as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on February 18, 2013, 03:13:36 pm
Titan is a poor man's Cyclops.  It costs half as much JP and 10 fewer MP, but it doesn't add Blind and doesn't work on floating targets.  Its damage cannot be boosted with headgear and is easily halved by Thief Hats, too.  What will make matters worse is that Float may become more common once Time Mages receive buffs.

What the Earth element lacks is reliability.  I suggest that we make Titan ignore M-EV for that reason.  Considering that Float effectively grants 100% M-EV against it, having it ignore M-EV won't break the game.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on February 19, 2013, 02:45:11 am
I know the discussion about Masamune has kinda fallen by the wayside with the more pressing matter of Magic Guns and Time Mage needing help but I had an idea.  What if Masamune were to remain the exact same but the JP requirement was upped to 400?  I was looking at the JP requirement for Regen and Haste.  Considering that Masamune is instant, 100%, is not restricted by faith, and often hits 2 units the JP might make it balanced.  Just something that popped into my head while I was reading earlier pages of this thread.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on February 19, 2013, 07:50:09 am
I don't know if 400 would be the best idea for masamune to cost, that is a little too high. I think 200 is fine considering that the AoE is nerfed. Plus its still useful as it is, just not OP like before, at least in my opinion
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 19, 2013, 12:28:26 pm
My last video has told me two things: (http://youtu.be/urLzu-7FYPo)


Also, in addition to the existence of Javelin II, there is also Escutcheon as well. But at 24 P Ev/3 M Ev, it's not exactly ground breaking.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 21, 2013, 06:23:37 pm
Two ideas I had the other day:

1. Half of MP simply doesn't reduce MP costs enough for it to be a worthwhile on most classes. Either they have enough MP for Half of MP to not be necessary or don't have enough MP for Half of MP to make a worthwhile difference. So what I'm proposing is that Half of MP instead set all MP costs to 5 MP. That way, even the most MP deprived classes can cast a few spells here and there. Now before you all pull Quickening out of your ass, that proposed MP cost wasn't going to curb it's abuse that much to even begin with. Adding a charge time would do much more good to stop it's abuse.

2. I doubt that Dash/Bullrush will ever be a good move, so why don't we make it a good Reaction? Counter Tackle will always use Dash in it's reaction, so whatever we do to Dash, we do to Counter Tackle, as evidenced by the fact Counter Tackle also damages the user...

So here are some ideas I had:
Add 50% Poison
Add 33% Stop
Add 25% Dead
Dash deals 33% damage in target HP
Dash deals 33% damage in *caster* HP
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on February 21, 2013, 11:50:14 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on February 21, 2013, 06:23:37 pm
I doubt that Dash/Bullrush will ever be a good move...


Bullrush is a good move. It's Squire's answer to Monk's Repeating Fist, does more damage on average and even cancels haste. Counter Tackle is the problem, alone - it can only do, at best, half of what Counter can do no matter what we give it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 24, 2013, 07:24:38 pm
(Ugh, I meant to comment on this last night finally, but then...oblivion.)

Yeah, I agree with AeroGP on this actually, especially since Bullrush currently isn't avoidable as it "should" be/is supposed to be. You could maybe make it so that Bullrush canceled Regen as well as Haste since Masamune has an obnoxiously high saturation at present, especially with there currently being nothing multi-target that fully counters it 100% of the time. That' is probably all Bullrush "needs" at this point, however, unless you also want to slightly lower the recoil to like a fifth of the damage; I'm ambivalent about that given how much damage Bullrush can do and how cheap its JP cost is. If anything, it's Counter Tackle that's the flawed one, not least because it activating only when you probably get hit makes it likelier that your own recoil will kill you (as happened hilariously in one of the videos I just recorded).

As for other things, I'll just rapid-fire off "solutions" or general commentary:


1. Kagesougi "ambivalence": I should have explained less poorly before I "left". By "ambivalence" I meant more that even some of those who did agree were kind of "sure, why not" rather than all for it despite Kagesougi's obvious level of overpowering damage and status; Hawk's Eye is much the same way, really. Additionally, Kagesougi losing Don't Act is the bare minimum of what I think should happen to it; I still think it's going to end up being overpowered if that's all it loses, but if losing Don't Act could barely get "unanimous" support, then I'm not going to bother trying to push for it to lose anything but Don't Act (and perhaps taking more MP) for now.


2. Javelin II as an available weapon: No. Unless someone can think of a useful design with that has less power than Dragon Whisker and doesn't obviate anything else, then I see no point of adding another spear presently. Between everything else FFMaster already has to do for 139 and the fact that spears are already all at least decent and half of them are getting "necessary" fixes/boosts already, there's really no point to increase Jump's already too-great power, especially when Lancer itself is getting at least one definite and significant buff.


3. Hidden Knife still needing a nerf: Well, besides its W-EV being reduced to 0%, which again was the least thing that I thought should happen, I have something else in mind: get rid of it adding +1 Speed. There's really no reason that the sole weapon to give the user what's effectively Concentrate also enables its user to automatically get more hits in even if you just equip one of it, much less two of it; "ironically", it losing +1 Speed would somewhat boost since then there would no more reason to put two Hidden Knives one use, effectively "wasting" the second one. There's no reason to reduce its WP considering that 8 WP is already kind of low, but it can definitely be weakened further without making it useless, especially since currently has the same paradoxical treatment that Quickening has to a lesser extent. (That said, I would be fine with it retaining it's current meager W-EV of 5% if it lost Speed instead. I only ever wanted the W-EV gone because I figured people wouldn't go for speed and because it cleared up FFMaster's ambiguous phrasing of "Transparent cancels evasion".)


4.Titan being Outpaced: Well, outside of Quake and Tornado being way too quick at present and Quake having the same AoE and barely less power than the twice-as-slow Titan that can't even be used for Earth-absorption, Titan has the problem of being "bland" as well. When considering that the majority of summons have a status in addition to their power and that half of the ones that don't are sure-hit, with Titan also having to "deal" with Float and Thief Hat, there's little surprise that it's "left behind". [/screw that book series] This especially when Silf is sure-hit and causes status (which I still think is fine) and is only 3 CT vs. 5 CT and when both Odin & Cyclops have statuses and are easier to power-up--this will remain as such even after Golden Hairpin loses +1 MA. So, yes, Titan could use something.

That said, I agree that giving it +1 Range wouldn't help that much, pretty much because of both Kikuichimo(n)ji & Earth Slash; no need to step on the toes of two other Earth elements since Titan already stepped on old Quake as much as current Quake stomps on it. So, the one of the "best" solutions at present seems like it would be to just allow Titan the chance to add a negative status (or two). At present, the best statuses to have it potentially add seems like it would be Slow or, sigh, Stop. Everything else would be too overpowering or permanent.

That or just taking Gaignun's suggestion to have it ignore M-EV, which should probably be fine.


5. Masamune: I still think it would be more than fine at 200 JP if it only added Haste at 100% (or if Regen & Poison went back to not lasting past death). However, given that Ninja's "explosion tag" is being made specifically to counter it, Dispel Magic might become AoE 1 and a couple of other things are being buffed to due to how obnoxious it is, leaving it alone for now it is probably the best thing (unfortunately).


6. Reraise Spam: As I've said a couple of times already, just make Reraise unable to target one's self if it's going to remain instant. Otherwise it drags out matches way too much, especially when most of the time it's delaying the inevitable. Being unable to target the self would also mean that Death Sentence would remain viable if it and Reraise finally cancel each other like they "should".


7. Half of MP becoming 5 MP All: Honestly, that seems really broken Dokurider, especially when considering that Robe of Lords has both Block: Silence and some of the most MP and when taking into account that Bizen Boat really should just take M-EV overall. I personally think in most instances, Half of MP is "fine". It could maybe stand to be slightly cheaper JP-wise, but that's it.


8. Making Counter Tackle viable: Since I agree with AeroGP that Counter Tackle is more the problem, "we" could just use the fact that Counter Tackle will always use what's in Dash's spot to our advantage and move Bullrush somewhere else before making Counter Tackle's spot a move that isn't otherwise actively available. For instance, "we" could follow Eternal's lead and change Counter Tackle into "Jinx", which would try to add status to the opponent. Of course, that is both potentially (far) too powerful, somewhat steps on Counter Flood's toes (even if it would be single-target) and something better suited to Thief. In the case of that last point, however, I wouldn't be against shuffling around Squire and Thief's RSMs somewhat, especially since Squire's already losing Defend. Squire getting Caution (back) could allow it to finally see some use.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on February 24, 2013, 08:24:04 pm
...why can't we just make Reraise a normal spell again? CT, Faith based with an MP cost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 24, 2013, 08:53:05 pm
(Probably because it was 100% on Priest as a spell for the longest time and never saw any use.)

It also being on Paladin now means that any attempt to make it actually use MA would just end up making it sub-par, as was Dia's fate until quite recently.

That said, I'd be up for making it have a CT if self-targeting is kept. To me, either keeping it instant but having unable to self-target or forcing it to take CT again but allowing it to be self-targeting would be fair. I also wouldn't mind it having more of JP cost, but meh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on February 24, 2013, 10:47:47 pm
Quote from: The Damned on February 24, 2013, 07:24:38 pm1. Kagesougi "ambivalence"

3. Hidden Knife still needing a nerf:


These issues are related.  Kagesougi is nasty when it's paired with Hidden Knife.  Without Hidden Knife, you can guard against Kagesougi with P-EV (in addition to status-resistant armour as you can now).  Are people still against removing "Always: Transparent" from Hidden Knife?  We do have Concentrate now, after all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 24, 2013, 11:00:28 pm
(Indeed, Hidden Knife just exacerbates the problem with Kagesougi.)

I'm definitely not against "Always: Transparent" getting removed from Hidden Knife (and it consequently probably getting to keep Speed +1). However, I'm not sure if anyone else can say that. From what I remember when I asked the same thing like...almost year ago already or whatever, FFMaster and Raven were against it. Someone else might have also been against it. Everyone else might have been ambivalent, if only because I don't remember them saying anything.

Kagesougi definitely has other problems though, even if Hidden Knife only adds to them. (Not trying to put words in your mouth that you're saying Hidden Knife is the only reason "Kagesougi is nasty". I just want to be personally clear since your wording is somewhat ambiguous.)

****

Your appearance reminds me that I was going over maps while I was "away" these past couple of lists, particularly with regards to your "approved list". While for the most part I can agree with them and I've found the list to be quite helpful--thanks for that--when it comes to recording, I disagree with VALKYRIES being an acceptable map as I typo'd before I left--I meant to put "awesome name". As I said, it's arguably an even worse map than END or even NOGIAS, which is saying something. It basically has all of TIGER's problems with any of TIGER's possible fairness, especially since it would be easier to "even out" TIGER than it would to even out VALKYRIES.

Beyond that, I also felt there were about a dozen or "fair" maps you left out, though I can understand your hesitance on some of them. I'm not sure if I should talk about this now, bump said thread or just wait until later considering people keep raising points that hardly get to get discussed in here.

*still waiting on Mediator feedback besides everyone agreeing about splitting Refute*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on February 24, 2013, 11:58:06 pm
Without Hidden Knife, I'd say Kagesougi is "very good," like Raise 2 or Haste 2.   

Go ahead and scratch Valkyries from my list of maps.  If memory serves me right, I threw that list together in one evening.  Valkyries is that long, twisty map with a height difference, right?

As for your Mediator suggestions, I say:

YES to splitting Refute
YES to adding Hush (if there's a skill slot to spare)
NO to lowering base HP
NO to raising C-EV

Were there any others?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 25, 2013, 01:21:21 am
(Yeah, VALKYRIES is the twisty map where one team starts way at the top and the other team starts way at the bottom. Basically like END, only not circular and not remedied by having Fly or Teleport.)

Only other thing about Mediators, since I'm fine with them keeping Preach and Solution now that I know the AI is actually using them and even if Mediators currently have no innate access to a healing item, is replacing Persuade since the AI still isn't currently using it. I proposed "Stall", which is basically a 100 or 150 JP single-target Add Stop, as a replacement.

Well, that and maybe me being adamant that neither of the Refute "pieces" cancel Innocent or Faith in addition to no longer canceling Charging or Performing. I also wouldn't mind the positive status canceling "piece" not canceling Reflect or the negative status canceling piece not canceling all non-Dead statuses, but those aren't "big" issues presently.

****

Oh, and speaking of map stuff, while I disagreed with Dokurider that Bervenia Volcano should banned before the SCC tournament happened, the more I look at that map, the more I realize that its starting positions really need to be changed. The team that starts out "on" the lava tends to be at huge disadvantage versus the team that starts towards the back of the map. It would be a lot better if the teams just started across on the opposing shores from each other with the lava in-between them so no non-Geomancers potentially get automatically stranded or at least stuck behind an ally.

Other maps could be improved starting position-wise, but that's only map "allowed" that I regard thinking could be improved so substantially.

Oh, right. Also think the Windmill Shed map, where you fight Wiegraf outside, is pretty terrible considering the team that starts behind the windmill tends to be heavily disadvantaged. It and VALKYRIES were the only two "allowed" maps that I currently have problems with though. (I also thought that Araguay Woods was more a Large map than a Medium one though, which is probably what I'm going to use it as from now since there aren't enough [good] Large maps and I rather like that map anyway.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on February 26, 2013, 03:02:36 pm
Just because something isn't being used, doesn't mean there's something wrong with it. Exhibit A: Silver Bow. On casual inspection, Silver Bow's proc, Holy, is powerful, but can't be used fully by it's native class, while it's twin, Windslash Bow, is universally useful. But there are three aspects of Silver Bow that set it apart from Windslash Bow and in fact, make it superior in ways. It's proc, while Archers aren't renown for their MA, Holy has such a high Q value, it allows for good damage anyways. Easily an extra 100 damage. That would be true, if most non-Spell Gun Archers had high faith. So in practice, it probably deals much less than that and falls flat of Hurricane.

But the second and third, and most important reasons of all, are that it's is Holy Elemental and therefore boosted by Golden Hairpin.  First of all, Holy, out of all the elements in the game, is the frequently least blocked Element in the game. Even with the ever-omnipresence of the Holy spell, I can count the number of teams that have even fielded Holy protection, let alone ran it as their primary absorption element, Holy, on one hand. Outside of Magic Ring, Holy is unblocked. Right now, it's an non-Oil Elemental without any of the drawbacks. So unlike Windslash Bow, it doesn't have to worry about running into a team that completely absorbs it's elemental, because there's only one team that does just that!

Golden Hairpin give Silver Bow a boost in a way most other elements would die for. Taking up the Head Slot leaves every other slot, including the all important Accessory slot, open for customization. Contrast that to Windslash Bow, that has to take 108 Gems, lowering it's customization (which is why I think Strengthen: Wind should be an attribute  for Head Items). Golden Hairpin also allows the unit to field Kagesougi with an ease Archers don't usually have, thanks to Golden Hairpin's massive MP bonus, and allowing them to replace the otherwise incompatible Holy proc with Kagesougi's procs for pure profit.

Damage wise, Silver Kagesougi stills falls short of Ultima Kagesougi, but that's probably because Ultima Bow is a hair too strong, basically being a 5 ranged Chaos Sword when paired with it's partner in crime. Small wonder why no one uses Gastro Feeties. And even then, that Silver Bow users has nearly 80 MP, so paired with Move MP Up, you can Kage all match long, even under a Witch Hunt Storm. You can even attach Meiton on just because you fucking can. And best of all, if you really wanted to, just have some buddies in Chameleon Robes for absorb strategies.

The point is, the Silver Bow is being overlooked, and it's not going to take it anymore. An item's popularity can only tell so much about how an item really is. Low usage can be a symptom of many things. It can mean the item is simply too weak, or it can be a sign that it's perfectly fine, but just being overshadowed by stronger items and pushed out of it's niche, or it can just mean no one has seriously tried using it yet.

Expect it guys. Expect to fly away, now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 01, 2013, 09:09:34 am
Quote7. Half of MP becoming 5 MP All: Honestly, that seems really broken Dokurider, especially when considering that Robe of Lords has both Block: Silence and some of the most MP and when taking into account that Bizen Boat really should just take M-EV overall. I personally think in most instances, Half of MP is "fine". It could maybe stand to be slightly cheaper JP-wise, but that's it.


1. I've been meaning to say this for a while now, but giving Bizen Boat will do absolutely nothing to curb it's so called 'abuse' for the simple fact that the AI will use Bizen Boat to interrupt spells. While said caster is Charging. Meaning they can't evade. Making adding M-Ev completely and utter worthless.

2. First, I realized that the code for decreasing costs to 5 MP would be difficult to code, especially for those spells with less than 5 MP. Instead, I'll ask for MP costs to be quartered instead.

Anyone with Robe of Lords can spam whatever spell of choice outside of Flare indefinitely when paired with Move MP Up any other MP recovery method. There is really no advantage to having infinite MP or near infinite MP, even aside the fact that most matches don't last long enough to exhaust your average mage's MP. The real reason is that most mages don't want to give up having a shorter charge time or hitting harder. In fact, they'll want to do anything else with their support slot except use Half of MP.

The simple fact is that Half of MP is not a support of mages. Not for a type of unit that can easily get all the MP it could ever need. So I don't know what you're worried about. Besides, lowering it's cost will do nothing. It's already incredibly cheap as is. It could be free and it'll still be just as unused.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on March 02, 2013, 09:21:12 pm
As seen in my latest match with SWA (thanks again, Barren!), an odd thing happened.

Hawk's Eye was used on a unit, which it did what it's supposed to do: Oil and Poision. However, when said unit used Nurse to heal itself, it didn't get Regen.

Don't think that's supposed to happen, entirely.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on March 02, 2013, 10:11:13 pm
Quote from: Reks on March 02, 2013, 09:21:12 pm
As seen in my latest match with SWA (thanks again, Barren!), an odd thing happened.

Hawk's Eye was used on a unit, which it did what it's supposed to do: Oil and Poision. However, when said unit used Nurse to heal itself, it didn't get Regen.

Don't think that's supposed to happen, entirely.


Actually, I think it was suppose to happen. I was playing FFT Vanilla today and one of my units with a P Bag got poisoned. I tried taking it away with Masamune/Regen, but the poison continued to remain. I used Stigma Magic and when the poison was removed, Regen was back. I guess Vanilla and Arena has the same mechanics in terms of initial/always.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on March 03, 2013, 07:17:32 am
Quote from: TrueLight on March 02, 2013, 10:11:13 pm
Actually, I think it was suppose to happen. I was playing FFT Vanilla today and one of my units with a P Bag got poisoned. I tried taking it away with Masamune/Regen, but the poison continued to remain. I used Stigma Magic and when the poison was removed, Regen was back. I guess Vanilla and Arena has the same mechanics in terms of initial/always.


Huh, interesting. Possible counter to Masamune and Nurse spam? Won't stop the Haste on Masamune, but....

EDIT: And then I read this post from The Damned on Youtube, same match.

"As for the Paladin's Nurse not restoring Regen status after he was Poisoned, it was because he still *had* Regen status from Light Robe, which for some weird reason doesn't just "reactivate" & negate Poison the next turn. It's been that way since Vanilla, but it's easy to miss for several reasons."
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 04, 2013, 12:39:17 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on March 01, 2013, 09:09:34 am
1. I've been meaning to say this for a while now, but giving Bizen Boat will do absolutely nothing to curb it's so called 'abuse' for the simple fact that the AI will use Bizen Boat to interrupt spells. While said caster is Charging. Meaning they can't evade. Making adding M-Ev completely and utter worthless.


Making Bizen Boat take M-Ev is meant to reduce collateral damage.

Quote from: Dokurider on March 01, 2013, 09:09:34 amThe simple fact is that Half of MP is not a support of mages. Not for a type of unit that can easily get all the MP it could ever need. So I don't know what you're worried about. Besides, lowering it's cost will do nothing. It's already incredibly cheap as is. It could be free and it'll still be just as unused.


To add, Half of MP is not an attractive support for any clothes wearers, either, especially if we're about to slap an MP bonus on most clothes.  Armour support is the only unit type that gets much use out of it.  Furthermore, considering that this unit type has nearly the lowest base MA in the game, it will likely not be using its host skill set, Summon Magick, whose skills' formulae are mostly all MA*X.  If we're going to tweak Half of MP, we had best start off by moving it to another skill set.  Time Magick is the best choice.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 04, 2013, 01:37:03 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on March 04, 2013, 12:39:17 pm
Making Bizen Boat take M-Ev is meant to reduce collateral damage.

Fair enough, if solidly underwhelming.

QuoteTo add, Half of MP is not an attractive support for any clothes wearers, either, especially if we're about to slap an MP bonus on most clothes.  Armour support is the only unit type that gets much use out of it.  Furthermore, considering that this unit type has nearly the lowest base MA in the game, it will likely not be using its host skill set, Summon Magick, whose skills' formulae are mostly all MA*X.  If we're going to tweak Half of MP, we had best start off by moving it to another skill set.  Time Magick is the best choice.

Oh yeah, clothes are gaining the MP boost. I forgot about that. Yeah, adding Half of MP to Time Mage would be a start. It and Yin Yang Magic are the only magic skillsets a non-mage could possibly use that isn't Talk Skill and Yin Yang Magic already has MP recovery covered three fold.

As for Nurse not getting rid of Poison, yeah that's been a thing since vanilla. I believe it's even documented in the BMG. Moral of this story: If you going to run Nurse, you don't need Light Robe. Even without badly interacting mechanics, it'd still be a redundant design choice.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 05, 2013, 09:53:43 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on March 04, 2013, 12:39:17 pm
Making Bizen Boat take M-Ev is meant to reduce collateral damage.

To add, Half of MP is not an attractive support for any clothes wearers, either, especially if we're about to slap an MP bonus on most clothes.  Armour support is the only unit type that gets much use out of it.  Furthermore, considering that this unit type has nearly the lowest base MA in the game, it will likely not be using its host skill set, Summon Magick, whose skills' formulae are mostly all MA*X.  If we're going to tweak Half of MP, we had best start off by moving it to another skill set.  Time Magick is the best choice.

As you've demonstrated, most mage classes have very little use for Half MP.  So perhaps we move it away from mages altogether?  Give it to One of the physical classes that actually needs a usable support skill?  Thieves perhaps?

FOUR HOURS LATER EDIT: Does FLOAT block Kikuichimonji?  If it doesn't block it, then maybe it should?  I'm referring to the Draw Out ability, not the weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 07, 2013, 08:13:01 am
It'll be fine on Time Mages, not that I was hoping to make Half of MP an excellent support, thereby allowing Short Charge to go back to Time Mages or anything.

QuoteFOUR HOURS LATER EDIT: Does FLOAT block Kikuichimonji?  If it doesn't block it, then maybe it should?  I'm referring to the Draw Out ability, not the weapon.


Absolutely. The only difference between Float status and Float the movement is that the movement allows you to stop on Lava Panels.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on March 08, 2013, 03:24:43 am
Just had an idea - what if we gave a shield Initial: Reflect? I was thinking of turning the Crystal Shield into this since its current ability is rather niche. Evade can stay the same, though realistically it'd probably be safer at 15%/15%. Alternatively, give Crystal Shield Initial: Reflect in addition to Neutral: All Elements?

An Initial: Reflect shield with decent evade would be a rather attractive option for mages, or for anyone, actually, haha. I dunno, what do you guys think?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on March 08, 2013, 03:43:25 am
Quote from: CT5Holy on March 08, 2013, 03:24:43 am
Just had an idea - what if we gave a shield Initial: Reflect? I was thinking of turning the Crystal Shield into this since its current ability is rather niche. Evade can stay the same, though realistically it'd probably be safer at 15%/15%. Alternatively, give Crystal Shield Initial: Reflect in addition to Neutral: All Elements?

An Initial: Reflect shield with decent evade would be a rather attractive option for mages, or for anyone, actually, haha. I dunno, what do you guys think?


*obligatory Zelda Mirror Shield joke here*

Sounds fairly good to me. Also offers another option for reflect, as not everyone wants to use their accessory slot for Reflect Ring or support for Equip Armor, if they can't equip the Mirror Mail already.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on March 08, 2013, 06:12:08 am
(I'd be all over a Mirror Shield, though I think I'd go with the "safer" P-EV and M-EV considering everything else that's changing, even if Dispel Magic might get a boost.)

As much as I somewhat agree about Half of MP (and in some other senses, really don't), I'd rather just leave Half of MP changes for 140 considering everything else that's changing and FFMaster being busy and/or not around (on the forums).

Unless, of course, we're just talking about this to talk about it since nothing else is still able to be discussed...outside of those Mediator issues...and Quickening...and Kagesougi...and Hidden Knife...and....

Quote from: Dokurider on March 04, 2013, 01:37:03 pm
Fair enough, if solidly underwhelming.


Life as a whole is pretty underwhelming, so...yeah. Not really surprising about that, though part of the reason was also so that Mage Masher could exist at 100% Bizen Boat proc without being really abusive, even with the piss-poor MA that most Knife users have.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on March 09, 2013, 01:29:41 am
Couple more ideas:

Wall should get lower CT and/or MP. I personally think reducing its MP cost to 15 would be enough. Another possibility would be to reduce its CT to 0, which would make the current MP cost of 25 more justified.

I seem to recall some talk of increasing Geomancy range back to 5. What do people think of this? Also, what about improving the damage formula to ((PA+4)/2)*MA? It would be a very small increase to its damage (~+16 for max damage setup), so I think it would be ok.
That said, I think increasing the range is the more important topic of discussion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 09, 2013, 03:16:42 am
Elemental has fallen on the wayside lately, mainly because it's lost a lot of it's utility, mainly as a Sleep/Charm breaker. While that's not likely to ever come back for the sake of making Counter Flood slightly better, giving it back 5 range would at least restore it's old harassment ability. The +2 would be nice, more for increasing minimum/lower end damages.

I think giving Wall 0 CT would be wiser, possibly increasing it's odds of intercepting an otherwise killing blow.

Reflect Shield is also a good idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 09, 2013, 12:29:44 pm
Is it possible to make it so that Projectile Guard only affects Guns?  Bows and crossbows are already subject to regular evasion.  Projectile Guard just makes the various non-gun items inferior.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 09, 2013, 09:23:58 pm
It can be done, but I disagree since Spellguns are going to fixed and other then that, Bows are actually good enough to justify Projectile Guard.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on March 12, 2013, 04:09:07 am
(Yes, it would indeed be possible, but I concur with Dokurider here, especially because in the face of both Hawk's Eye and Kagesougi, I also agree that Ultimus Bow is just a tad overpowered; the same is arguable of Mythril Bow too. It should be unnecessary anyway if the Spellguns [and the aforementioned Hawk's Eye & Kagesougi] are getting nerfed as they should and Crossbows are, relatively speaking, getting another buff after they and Bows just got one.)

That said, I certainly wouldn't be against guns perhaps losing their innate auto-Concentrate. That said, I think they should still have some kind of accuracy "bonus" just because, Spellguns' persistent inanity aside, they have intentionally crappy damage to off-set that. I'm including Stone Gun here because you miss a turn and the AI's Berserk routines are way too dumb to make use of any distance weapon effectively most of the time unfortunately despite Stone Gun being the weapon that would benefit the most.

Of course, that's partly motivated by own plans for guns in my hacks that I'm currently still (read: forever) too lazy to code for where they just halve accuracy rather than being sure-hit. Not sure how that would work out though, especially for ARENA.

Also, speaking of guns, where are "we" on that new healing item? Is it still going to be a bag? If so, which bag? I ask partly because of how seldom things get discussed on here--partly because I know they get discussed on mIRC, which I am almost never on--and partly because I was only semi-joking about the healing gun replacing one of either Romanda Gun or Mythril Gun (if "we" are actually combining the two).

****

Anyway, here's map stuff before I forget again.

Looking at Gaignun's selection for Season 6 (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=8608.0), which is what I've been using for my videos, more closely during my hiatus a couple of weeks ago has led me to disqualify a couple maps, change the classification of another and "suspect" a few. For now, we'll ignore the "suspects" for the most part.

The first disqualified map is VALKYRIES, which is, frankly, terrible and arguably worse than either NOGIAS or even END, which everyone thinks are unusable. The second is Windmill Shed just because the team that starts near the Shed is basically screwed in most instances and the map is really uneven since the Shed in question is huge obstacle.

The changed map is Araguay Woods, which definitely seems like it more fits the definition of a Large map than a Medium map; one of side could probably stand to start slightly farther back though.

What's more, I noticed quite a few seemingly usable maps that just weren't on there:


1. #007 - Inside of Riovanes Castle [Medium]

2. #011 - Office of Igros Castle [Small]

3. #023 - Belouve Residence [outside of it; possibly usable, though strong potential Fly/Teleport abuse due to severe height difference - Small]

4. #026 - Weapon Storage of Yardow [possibly usable, though extremely narrow at only 4 tiles across, meaning AoE 2+ spells are basically unavoidable in here - Large]

5. #033 - Hospital in Slums [the 3D-ish map; seems fine surprisingly, even in the face of Teleport - Large]

6. #039 - Underground Passage in Goland [like 026, but not as narrow, so a more likely usable - Large]

7. #040 - Slums in Goug [where Mustadio officially joins - not sure if Medium or Large]

8. #041 - Besrodio's House [even with orrery, which I would prefer gone, it should be fine - Medium]

9. #042 - Warjilis Trade City [P1 might have the height adventure; otherwise fine - Medium]

10. #043 - Port of Warjilis [P2 might have the height adventure; otherwise fine - Medium]

11. #047 - Zarghidas Trade City [fine - can't decide if Medium or Large; probably the former]

12. #057 - Underground Book Storage First Floor [where you fight Wiegraf for a second time; possibly okay - can't decide if Medium or Large; probably the former with current starting points]

13. #059 - Underground Book Storage Third Floor [where you fight Izlude; probably fine - Large]

14. #066 - South Wall of Bethla Garrison [a bit spread out, even more so than 007, but otherwise fine - probably a Medium despite its width just because of starting points]

15. #093 - Broke Down Shed-Wooden Building [where Algus interrogates the guy before Sand Rat Cellar; fine - Small]

16. #095 - Church [where Delita & Ramza meet before Zalmo II?; seems fine - Medium]

17. #097 - Inside Castle Gate of Lesalia [unused map with a couple of house behind P2; seems fine - Medium]

18. #099 - Main Street of Lesalia [similarly unused map; seems fine even if one team has to turn a corner right at the start - Large]



Anything that's not mentioned either can't be fixed, like Nelveska Temple & Banished Fort, or is something that I'm even more unsure about, like Grog Hill & Bed Desert.

That said, there are also at least a few maps that could still be improved with start positions even if they are otherwise already usable, including Volcano (really need to start opposing shores), Colliery's 2nd Map (it was the starting one for Taichii vs. xyzqvw that I just recorded), Arena (which I'm still unsure about) and more.

Discuss. Or don't.


Quote from: CT5Holy on March 09, 2013, 01:29:41 am
Couple more ideas:

Wall should get lower CT and/or MP. I personally think reducing its MP cost to 15 would be enough. Another possibility would be to reduce its CT to 0, which would make the current MP cost of 25 more justified.

I seem to recall some talk of increasing Geomancy range back to 5. What do people think of this? Also, what about improving the damage formula to ((PA+4)/2)*MA? It would be a very small increase to its damage (~+16 for max damage setup), so I think it would be ok.
That said, I think increasing the range is the more important topic of discussion.


I'm fine with both of these. When it comes to Wall, I concur with Dokurider that Wall would probably "need" to become CT 0 to see use compared to Iron Will since that has a literal fourth of the cost.

Not sure how comfortable I am with White Magick becoming even better though. With this suggestion, that means it would have three CT 0 spells, when no other mage has any CT 0 spells, on top of still having Raise, Raise 2 and really powerful offensive in Holy which probably still isn't getting more than slightly nerfed.

So, having supported that, I would move that Wall go back to actually being based off Faith rather than being 100% that occurs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on March 12, 2013, 04:50:38 am
No, one of Wall's big strengths is that it is 100% hit. Think of it as a reason for the high MP cost. Besides, not all White Magic users necessarily use Holy and/or have high MA. While most WM users would have high Faith for Raise/Raise 2, making Wall Faith based obviously means the success rate drops when the caster targets a low faith teammate, and I think the decrease in accuracy would turn people away from using Wall.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on March 12, 2013, 05:31:27 am
(I understand that. I'm just saying that giving White Magick that as well just makes it seems too strong.)

That said, very well. Let us "go" with the 100% hit rate that Wall now if we give it CT 0 even though Iron Will would still exist for low Faith users, which is hardly attractive when Chivalry might keep its for-some-reason instant Reraise ability.

I'm sure that wouldn't turn out to be obnoxious at all. [/sarcasm]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 16, 2013, 06:51:45 pm
I have a question to noone in particular.  Are murasame (The weapon attack) and Healing Staff subject to evasion?  If my memory is right they weren't subject to evasion in vanilla.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on March 16, 2013, 06:53:02 pm
I think they are subject to evasion yes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 16, 2013, 08:53:06 pm
Quote from: reinoe on March 16, 2013, 06:51:45 pm
I have a question to noone in particular.  Are murasame (The weapon attack) and Healing Staff subject to evasion?  If my memory is right they weren't subject to evasion in vanilla.

No they are not.

Two propositions today:
1. Poles are excellent weapons. Their only problem is that they are natively stuck on classes that can't use them to their full potential. Oracles are conflicted about going full melee and would rather just stay casters and use Ivory Rod/Octagon Rod, and Lancer having poles must be some kind of setup for a punchline in the next version. So I propose that Poles get picked up by Geomancers. They have both shields and the move to make full use of Poles. It might even get people to use Iron Fan for once.

2. Heaven's Cloud (the Draw Out). Right now, it is the weakest draw out. It's distinguishing feature has a low proc rate, and even when it does proc, isn't that strong to begin with, and interferes with absorbing strategies. I propose that either it and Asura trade the friendly traits or Heaven's Cloud drops 20% Slow entirely.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on March 16, 2013, 08:56:25 pm
I though they were considering that both murasame and healing staff weren't 100% unless paired with concentrate. maybe it's something that I didn't notice or test out
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 16, 2013, 09:07:04 pm
Quote from: FFMaster on November 05, 2012, 12:16:19 am
Focus should be working. I just found out there is no animation though, you can check it for yourself midbattle. As for Shieldrender/Bowgun, I currently have no idea.

On an unrelated note: I got the item attribute extend hack working. So no more troubles about that. According to my calculations, there should be more than enough room for 1 attribute for every item.

Raven: How long do you think it will take to make a spreadsheet for item attributes 50-EF?

EXTRA NOTE: Formula 07(Healing Staff) isn't evadable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on March 16, 2013, 09:20:40 pm
ahh thanks for the reminder
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 18, 2013, 04:38:20 pm
Quote from: The Damned on March 12, 2013, 05:31:27 amThat said, very well. Let us "go" with the 100% hit rate that Wall now if we give it CT 0 even though Iron Will would still exist for low Faith users, which is hardly attractive when Chivalry might keep its for-some-reason instant Reraise ability.

I'm sure that wouldn't turn out to be obnoxious at all. [/sarcasm]


I don't think it will be any more obnoxious than Cherche and Setiemson.  As long as Wall costs more MP than Dispel Magic (which will also get an AoE of 1), Wall will have a viable counter.

Here are two JP modifications to throw on the pile:

Maintenance: 100 JP -> 0 JP
Maintenance is dramatically underpowered for a support ability.  Giving up your support ability for break protection is costly enough.

Equip Armor: 450 JP -> 250 JP
Equip Armor's 450 JP cost is from a time when clothes were much weaker than armour.  Now, clothes and armour are on approximately equal footing; it is appropriate to make their JP costs reflect that.  Keep in mind that mage classes, who find Equip Armor most attractive, must spend an additional 250 JP unlocking the Paladin skill set, which they will likely not use in any further capacity, for this ability.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 18, 2013, 04:43:54 pm
I was looking through the Master Guide when I started to wonder about something...

Chrono Trigger is currently listed as "when damaged" as a trigger.  However while watching Les Liaisons Dangeruses vs Celestial Status, Chrono Trigger was activated off a missed Earth Slash.

My question is...
Are "when damaged" and "When attacked" considered the same thing for reaction abilities?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on March 18, 2013, 06:32:16 pm
No. PA/MA/Speed Save will not trigger if the unit dodged an attack.

I'm guessing Chrono Trigger and Dragon Spirit have similar triggers - the unit is targeted by a physical attack. Dragon Spirit will also trigger off a dodged attack. I have yet to see Dragon Spirit activate off of a magic attack. I'm going to assume that Chrono Trigger is the same. (Does anyone remember if Sunken State triggered off of a magic attack? Sunken State became Chrono Trigger, so I'd think they would have the same properties.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 18, 2013, 07:02:39 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on March 18, 2013, 04:38:20 pm
I don't think it will be any more obnoxious than Cherche and Setiemson.  As long as Wall costs more MP than Dispel Magic (which will also get an AoE of 1), Wall will have a viable counter.

Here are two JP modifications to throw on the pile:

Maintenance: 100 JP -> 0 JP
Maintenance is dramatically underpowered for a support ability.  Giving up your support ability for break protection is costly enough.


I'm pretty sure even that will be 250 JP more than most would be willing to spend for it. Still, it's an okay change for me.

QuoteEquip Armor: 450 JP -> 250 JP
Equip Armor's 450 JP cost is from a time when clothes were much weaker than armour.  Now, clothes and armour are on approximately equal footing; it is appropriate to make their JP costs reflect that.  Keep in mind that mage classes, who find Equip Armor most attractive, must spend an additional 250 JP unlocking the Paladin skill set, which they will likely not use in any further capacity, for this ability.


I disagree. Armor and Clothes are roughly equal, but that don't translate into a good Equip skill. Simply put, more units will sooner go for Equip Armor than Equip Clothes because Equip Armor gives excellent HP and status protection. It is essentially a better Unyielding, or a HP Boost. Meanwhile, Equip Clothes cannot compete with Attack Up or even Overwhelm. Nobody even uses Equip Clothes for the Speed or Elemental protection. Furthermore, most of the classes that can use or want clothes already have them.

Point is, Equip Armor is priced high because it's the best Equip skill. Equip Clothes is priced low because it's a bad Equip skill, if not the worst. Equip Armor and Equip Clothes are not congruent and they shouldn't be priced as so.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 18, 2013, 10:34:26 pm
Equip Armor is certainly the most useful, but I'm still not convinced that it's worth 700 JP.  Allow me to run through a case example:

1. Female Priest wearing clothes
345 HP, 182 MP
Black Hood (+110 HP, +50 MP)
Silk Robe (+110 HP, +50 MP)

2. Female Priest wearing armour
360 HP, 82 MP
Crystal Helmet (+120 HP, Immune: Don't Act)
Diamond Armor (+115 HP, Immune: Berserk, Darkness, Poison, Don't Move)

Armour certainly offers excellent HP, but clothes can, too!  The featured armour offers +15 HP.  Overwhelm, by comparison, offers +86 HP.  Armour's real feature is its status protection.  However, by buying into that feature, you pass up on MP.  Status protection is worth more than MP, but I don't think it's worth 700 JP more.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 18, 2013, 11:05:22 pm
Yeah, most mages would rather have the Robes than the Armor, but I was thinking more along the lines of Chemists. They absolutely benefit from Armor. In fact, it's what I usually give my Chemists.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 19, 2013, 06:32:18 pm
I have (yet) another (fabulous) idea!  (In truth, I'm just bored.)  How comfortable would people feel if we gave first-tier Demi an AoE of 2?  With average damage clocking in at 100~125, and with damage being unboostable, it has the destructive output of first-tier Fire on a 15-MA caster.  Fire also adds Oil, costs half as much JP, and works with Oil.

Now, of course, Demi is better in other ways.  Demi:

so I don't mean to compare Demi and Fire on damage alone.

Why do I propose this?  For two reasons:

1. To promote balanced absorption strategies

Demi has a short CT, making it a useful method of healing, and it doesn't add nasty ailments like tier 1 black magick.  It is balanced because teams that will rely on party-wide Demi absorption will need to pass up on M-Ev, leaving them exposed to hostile magick.

2. To weaken damage-reduction strategies

By damage-reduction strategies, I mean the use of Overwhelm, (Magic) Defend UP, and perfumes.  Defensive strategies rustle my jimmies because they drag out matches.  Demi and status ailments are the sole two counters to these strategies.  Demi is unique in that it is the only "status-formula" skill that deals direct damage.  I feel an urge to promote this feature.  Now, I'm not suggesting that we break the game by buffing Demi's damage to the point of absurdity.  I'm suggesting that we allow it to be used in more ways (here, wide-area, simultaneous damage and healing in mild quantities.)  With more teams using Time Magick for their Haste and damage support, defensive strategies become that much less attractive.

Is an AoE of 2 too good?  Perhaps.  If I had it my way, I'd increase its AoE to 2 and leave it at that, but if there is dissenting opinion, I am willing to increase its cost of use in another way to compensate.  Increasing its MP cost, for example, will pre-emptively nerf teams that try to stack armour and spam Demi.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 19, 2013, 08:25:36 pm
It's not a bad idea, and upping the MP cost will be fine because most armored units will be wanting to take advantage of Balance more than Demi anyways. However, Demi's damage is boostable. It's a weird quirk with elemental damage success formulas, whereas it'll boost damage instead of success. But that a minor point and not a big deal. As for bypassing defenses, I don't think it's going to be the great equalizer, or even a decent equalizer. I'm not sure if Demi's damage is effected by Unyielding or not, but Shell and Magic Defense Up will reduce success rates. Not to mention Demi is more vulnerable to evasion.

The only reliable way I've found to punch through all that defense shit is Death Sentence, mainly via Secret Fist. It's one of the reasons why I've been so bugged about Death, because while Secret Fist will cut down tanks barring an immunity, meanwhile, Death is evadable both by faith and evasion, making it worthless as a so called tank buster. The only units that are legitimately frightened by Death are other mages, and that's if Death somehow avoids getting midcharged by said units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on March 19, 2013, 08:31:13 pm
I agree with the buff to Demi and the JP cost reduction on Maintenance. Don't have a strong opinion on Equip Armor, so I'll throw out the obligatory compromise solution of 350 JP.

Are you sure, Doku? I'm pretty sure ele-boosting will only boost the success rate of Demi, not its damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 19, 2013, 09:07:38 pm
Oh, you're right, guys. I was getting mixed up with Half/Weak properties.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 22, 2013, 11:59:47 pm
Actually, I have a idea on what to do with Maintenance: turn it into a Movement or Reaction. As a Reaction, it doesn't have to worry about triggering, it'll just be on all the time like Abandon, or a pseudo Reaction.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 23, 2013, 02:57:31 am
Quote from: Dokurider on March 22, 2013, 11:59:47 pm
Actually, I have a idea on what to do with Maintenance: turn it into a Movement or Reaction. As a Reaction, it doesn't have to worry about triggering, it'll just be on all the time like Abandon, or a pseudo Reaction.


If anything I'd rather see if it's possible as a movement, since Chemists don't have a movement ability, and we're still a little short on interesting movement abilities, even once Ninja's get Speed +1.  My issue though is that as a movement Maintenance doesn't seem "thematic" at first glance.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 23, 2013, 03:19:40 am
It would probably work the best as a movement, where it'll have less competition, whereas with Reactions, it'll still have to fight with Auto Potion, Abandon, and the Guard reactions. But yeah, it would be hard to see as a movement.

Another suggestion is concerning the changes to Oil. Now Raven suggested that Oil block reactions, but I think it would be more effective blocking evasion. One of the biggest concerns for oil/magic spells combos is M-Ev and how nothing can really be done about it, thanks to Concentrate only effecting P-Ev, aside from using Paralyze/Sleep/other shit. So, Oil could be used as a way to help out in that regard and make Oil more generally applicable. Negating reactions is unique and would be welcome, but consider that Oil's effect is potentially strong enough to net OHKOs, making Reaction Negating pointless except against Projectile Guard, and possible Counter Magic, if Oil finally becomes a spell. Perhaps, poor neglected dummied out Curse/Evil Looking could be introduced to negate Reactions? mite b gud

EDIT: On second thought, Maintenance could work as a psuedo-Support Reaction on 40/40 units. With Auto Potion only going of 40% of the time, some people might get results from just slotting Maintenance for a Reaction so they'd get a passive, yet possibly rump saving effect versus gambling with Auto Potion. It. Might. Just. Work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 23, 2013, 06:01:22 am
Regarding something I noticed about the Poison spell: what if it applied Oil?  Watching CT5HOLY's video before it got pulled I noticed a wizard was frequently using the Poison spell.  However despite it's massive AOE and high hit percentage, the spell was mostly useless.  We could rename it "Toxify" and have it apply oil?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on March 23, 2013, 10:36:37 am
Quote from: reinoe on March 23, 2013, 06:01:22 am
Regarding something I noticed about the Poison spell: what if it applied Oil?  Watching CT5HOLY's video before it got pulled I noticed a wizard was frequently using the Poison spell.  However despite it's massive AOE and high hit percentage, the spell was mostly useless.  We could rename it "Toxify" and have it apply oil?


Fire already inflicts Oil, so having 2 spells causing Oil is not really necessary. Although, Poison could use the buff whether it's inflicting another status effect or more AOE.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 23, 2013, 11:55:16 am
Poison is good at forcing the opposing team to reapply Regen.  It's also a fallback spell if the opposing team is using White Robes and Thief Hats.  It's pretty weak, but it has a purpose.

We could replace Poison with Oil (and change Fire's status effect to something else... preferably Poison), but then I really wouldn't want Oil buffed.  Oil already makes many spells 1HKO, and, more worryingly, Oil overrides elemental resistances.  Giving Oil another effect will overload it.  I believe it is better to create a new status effect that cancels M-Ev and/or locks reaction abilities.

I think Maintenance fits the Chemist's skill set best as a Movement ability, even though it sounds silly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 25, 2013, 09:58:00 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on February 14, 2013, 06:22:55 am
A team like that would still be subject to Blind not to mention a little lacking in the damage department. 8 WP is already pretty low as is.


After watching my team, "House Of Dead Ninjas", in action I'm not sure Hidden Knife needs a nerf.  Wasn't the problem with Hidden Knife actually Kagesougi?  And Kagesougi is getting a slight nerf via removal of Don't Act.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on March 29, 2013, 04:39:56 am
(Sigh. This has been long delayed. My apologies.)

Outside of my response to Wiz, which isn't from this thread, I'm going to put every other reply in spoilers since they're all from the most recent page and there's no point making a wall of text, especially at this order. Restraint from me? I know, it's shocking.

That said, I also do this to make it easier to ask a question that's been nagging me ever since I pointed out to Dokurider that the Cursed Ring guaranteeing fourth turn revival is weirdly "unnatural": Would anyone else agree that Cursed Ring is probably fine losing that +1 Speed?



Except that Cherche & Setiemson are trumped by the now unavoidable Steal Accessory, only cover the user themselves and aren't guaranteed to come with access to revival, healing and/or a Holy nuke. Granted, Wall is indeed able to be gotten rid of by Dispel Magic, Spellbreaker, Chaos Blade, the current Refute or just dying, but aside two of those aren't 100% like Wall would still be. That's why not re-binding it by Faith just seems...unnecessary given everything else White Magick has. Sure, it's losing Golden Hairpin's currently overpowered boost to Holy...slightly due to the loss of +1 MA, rather than a guaranteed, probably necessary change to Holy's power and/or speed.

(What are "we" doing with Holy anyway? The only thing I remember being suggested that I think people kind of agree with was to slightly drop its power by one multiplier point, but that's it.)

As (I think) I said before, my problem isn't with Wall getting made better since I'm the one who brought up how much it sucks compared to Chivalry's Iron Will in the first place. It's more that the way it's possibly to boosted may be too much with the other boosts the already strong White Magick is getting, namely "fixing" the Cure spells and making one instant. This versus what little it's definitely losing, namely Golden Hairpin losing +1 MA. Holy, as asked above, is still up in the air, but White Magick's Raise spells and Esuna aren't getting touched. Also up in the air is what Priests stats might look like, though it seems probable that they'll be made a faster/the fastest mage.

Additionally, while Wall getting such a boost is necessary, it also somewhat muddles what "should" be done with Protect (2) or Shell (2) since I know some people brought up those as being "deficient". So...yeah, Wall has kinda has rippling problems just because it isn't in a vacuum, even if it does need improvement (compared to Iron Will).

I'm fine with trying it, I'm just...hesitant.



I vaguely remember Sunken State triggering off of magickal attacks, but it's been a while. Looking at the BGM makes it seems like neither Sunken State nor Sunken State should, of course, and I honestly don't recall Chrono Trigger triggering off magick. Then again, very few people have been using Chrono Trigger, so....

Regardless, I'll double check this weekend when I try to check for Unction and...other things.




I wouldn't be against trying it out as a Movement or "Reaction". However, if that's the case, then I don't agree that its JP should be 0. It should be at least 50 JP since it has significant effect, even if only against five certain skills, unlike the two free 0 JP Movements of Move -1 and Jump +1.

Of course, if it's changed from a Support to a Movement or especially a Reaction, it should perhaps be made sure that the AI can still "see" it like it does now. Unless, of course, we want the AI to waste turns trying to break the equipment of or steal from a unit with Maintenance. Of course, the former isn't too much of a problem with the way that Breaks have been set-up since vanilla since they default to damage; if that should change though....

Similarly, I'd probably be for trying to use Xifanie's Maintenance hack that negates stat minus abilities (and that puts a general limit on stat boosts in general IIRC, which I may not).

As for it possibly not being thematic as a Movement (or Reaction), just change the explanation to say that the unit makes sure it has all of its equipment as moves about. [/mastery of bullshit]



I concur with Dokurider. I see no reason to make it cheaper or, at least, that much cheaper. Maybe making it 400 JP would be fine, but otherwise...I'm not sure. Maybe 350 JP as CT5Holy proposed as a compromise, but that seems pushing it, especially since the health-based armors are getting a boost and Regen & Move-HP Up are already quite strong.

This especially when Equip Clothing will a)be moving to Monk most likely and b) probably be getting a boost by allowing Ribbons/Hair Adornments/Headbands. If anything, it's Equip Clothing that probably needs a JP increase going into 1.39/139.




I wouldn't be against Demi potentially getting up to AoE 2, but I'd rather wait until 1.40/140 to try that rather than try to tack it on to 1.39/139 (if that's what you're suggesting). There's already quite a few changes suggested both for Time Mage and in general and that would be a rather large one. Besides, Kotetsu is already an AoE 2 attack of Dark(ness), which is more than half of the elements can say since only Fire, Earth and Wind have absorb-friendly AoE 2s.

Additionally, I'm admittedly rather hesitant for two other reasons between the Cursed Ring "problem" and the suggestion that it's likely more Fire that has the problem than Demi.

As such, I'd maybe up for changing Fire's proc to Poison from Oil, despite still disliking Poison lasting past death, particularly on mages. Admittedly, might make Fire even worse/more powerful given its AoE, but the Poison spell as it is now just...sucks frankly. The new Regen is at least usable--another point to White Magick--even if it still seems somewhat little use due to nigh-ubiquitous usage of Masamune; the boost to Antidote also isn't a point in Poison's favor.

(Also, it's somewhat hazy if Salamander would/"should" have to change its proc from Oil to Poison as well if Fire did. I'd imagine it would, but....)

A similar problem to that suggestion is that an Oil-only move--Unction--might both be too powerful and might be something that isn't even used by the AI (or at least often used) like Persuade (or Preach/Solution). Still, Unction would be...interesting to try at least; I'll try to see if I can finally test the AI using it in one of my patches before this weekend ends, but I promise nothing.

Otherwise, I'd still suggest what I suggested in 1.39/139 thread months ago already:


1. Poison goes to Time Mage (or Oracle).
2. Balance goes to Oracle (if Poison goes to Time Mage).
3. Wizard gets a composite Bio that can proc Poison since Druid is apparently doing away with all Bio spells.


There. Poison gets to be on a class that would actually use it because neither can just nuke everything into the ground and, at the same time, the entire Bio line doesn't just go "poof".

As for combining Poison & Oil into Toxify potentially, for Brahma's sake, please no. There's a reason I have such thing as a special-character-only ability in my planned hacks. It's the same reason why Hawk's Eye is currently pretty damn busted: simultaneously applying life loss over time and a greatly susceptibility to a certain (set of) element(s) makes things quickly swing in the favor of the user pretty much always, especially when the damage lasts past death and thus negates half of the available resurrection options.




Yeah, I'd be up for it (or something) negating M-EV in general if people decide/agree that something is really "needed" to do so (besides Sleep or Don't Act or Stop [?]), if only because Concentrate is back. Of course, this means Unction itself would likely have to by-pass M-EV or else it would be pointless...which would be a rather huge boost to elemental teams that aren't Holy or Dark (or even ones that are since Holy, nuke that it is, is still avoidable).

So...yeah. As much a magickal equivalent to M-EV might be worthwhile, I don't think giving it to Oil would be good, especially with the level of power Oil already has. Making use of one of the dummied out abilities for that sake might be interesting, even if M-EV is hardly ubiquitous currently and even now quite a few teams are still (understandably) utterly devoid of it.




Besides the seeming bugginess I just uncovered with my match against fdc, Kagesougi was never the sole problem with Hidden Knife. It just quickly became the most visible problem after Spellguns were "taken care of"--laugh--because Kagesougi by itself is already horribly overpowered. And having that same ability be on the one class with innate Two Swords that also has access to a weapon that basically gives Concentrate with +1 Speed without need to pay a single extra JP (beyond the 200)? ...Did no one really foresee this being an issue while I was gone?

Regardless, there are several problems with Hidden Knife besides it basically obviating the current Sasuke Knife on every team except for Wiz's and making Kagesougi even dumber. There are three main issues with it that have been around since the beginning:


1) It grants Concentrate automatically two two of the fastest of classes, one of which has innate Two Swords. This is the biggest problem.

2) On top of that it grants +1 Speed, so you get more Concentrated hits on which ever user has it. This is the "smallest" problem.

3) It's compatible with Two Swords, meaning that it makes other weapons compatible with Two Swords unavoidable, still without any sacrifice. This is the Goldilocks problem.


This all along with making every physically-based attacks also unavoidable and...yeah, that's basically why I've always disliked Hidden Knife. At least with it and Concentrate being subject to Blind/Darkness now, it isn't as bad as it was initially, but it still really doesn't need all of that even before Kagesougi. I'd rather it just lose Always: Transparent and keep the +1 Speed and compatibility with Two Swords, even if that would mean a slight WP boost from 8 to 9. Then I'd just be fine with having (almost) all of Raven's proposed changes for Ninjato take place otherwise.




Quote from: Wiz on March 25, 2013, 03:46:23 pm
I've been lurking pretty much these past few months only to stick around and see what'll come of 139 then I'm probably gone for good afterwards. GG to everyone else who's tried to triumph over me so far and btw the Damned, have the results from Insult's wrath convinced you that it needs to die since it's obvious it's only compatible with defensive-themed teams that utilize quickening and darkness, which is probably also gonna get the cut (quickening i.e.)? Because it should, and if not, I wouldn't mind hearing your rationale despite the current results kinda proving my point to be true.

\o


I'm still not entirely sure Insult needs to die just yet. The problem seems more to be that Berserk lasts forever after its afflicted. So I'd rather see how Insult fares if Berserk is given a CT of, say 48, before we nuke it from orbit; Quickening can be nuked from orbit though--I'm personally quite tired of giving that thing chances it doesn't deserve. Otherwise, in killing Insult, we'd also have to probably get rid of Blind Rage and Salty Rage since Berserk status as a whole is really a problem.

Unless of course you think, for the most part, that Insult is as overpowering as it seems to currently be solely because its instant (and unavoidable outside of Finger Guard), which would be understandable. After all, I personally think that Mimic Daravon is overpowering despite Oracle's Sleep sucking quite hard in most instances by contrast simply because Mimic Daravon is instant (and, again, unavoidable); of course, it also doesn't help Sleep that it's in the same skill set as the cheaper, faster and more-beneficial-to-magic(k)-using-teams spell that is Paralyze.

But, yeah, if it's possible to make Berserk have finite CT, then I'd rather try that for 1.39. If it doesn't work to curb the problem, then Insult and Berserk status as a whole probably need to be done away with as a whole in ARENA like how Confuse eventually was.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 16, 2013, 03:55:57 am
Thoughts on Life Song and Wiznaibus:

What if we combine Life Song and Nameless Song? So it'd be like HP Heal MA+20, 10-15% chance of adding Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Reflect? Or maybe not all of those buffs, but you guys get the idea.

As for Wiznaibus, what about remaking it completely? I don't have any ideas atm, but the HP damage isn't significant enough, and I'm not sure if the Poison proc alone is enough to make it more usable. 2x Wiznaibus Dancers with almost max PA gear + 2x Mimes = 190 damage per round of Wiznaibus, but units with Auto Potion are more or less immune to Wiznaibus, and AP is quite prevalent. I dunno, maybe I'm thinking too narrowly about the uses of Wiznaibus. Even if you wanted the game to go really long so Wiznaibus goes off a lot, wouldn't it be better to have one of the stat reducing dances instead? Is the random bits of damage and Poison Wiznaibus adds actually worth it? Does it do enough? I'm not sure, hence the proposal of changing it.
What if we upped Wiznaibus' damage, but made it not persist, like what happened to Lore? Make it something like 50+PA damage? Except this actually makes 2x Wiznaibus Dancers + 2x Mimes ridiculous - 400 damage per round of Wiznaibus. So let's not do that. (Granted, you're probably getting 2 Wiznaibuses off per turn, so the current 2x Wiznaibus + 2x Mime does 380 damage per turn, but it's spread out, so it gives the other team a chance to recover/drop some units -> survive next wave.)
Hmm, what if this new dance messes with Brave or Faith? Just throwing ideas out there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on April 16, 2013, 05:30:14 am
 In order for Wiznaibus to justify it's existence, it must answer the following question: What can Wiznaibus do that Lore can't? Even Lore's problems of running into a team that absorbs the element being used is nothing compared to Wiznaibus' problem of not only being rendered moot by Auto Potion, but it also painlessly feeds PA/MA/Speed Save users, triggers Dragon Spirit/Chrono Trigger and might even trigger HP Restore. While Lore also has these problems, Lore deals more damage per instance which helps negate this problem and heals allies anyways, while Wiznaibus' DPS model only exacerbates Save Reactors. If Wiznaibus is to be buffed, it's damage output cannot increase, not significantly, because in addition to the problems CT5Holy pointed out, it would be a folly anyways because that's just trying to compete with Lore, a battle it can never win.

My solution would be to make it add only Poison (at 66%?), dealing no damage. It would be very useful because not only does it basically do the same thing, but the AI reacts to it like a bug crawling up it's figurative arm, causing them to drop everything they are doing and try to heal it over and over again, wasting turns. Look at what Kiyomori does to Nursing teams; it's an anti-AI move.

As for combining Life Song and Nameless Song, I don't oppose it. It might even work out just fine. God knows I'd like to see another song used other than Magic/Battle Song.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 16, 2013, 01:47:26 pm
I'm not sure if this is still correct, but something people noticed with Nameless Dance a while back was that the AI never bothered to cure any of the statuses inflicted because the AI believed the statuses would just get reapplied by the dance. If this is still the case, then your Wiznaibus would simply poison everyone on the enemy team very effectively, without generating the wasted turns that you intend.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 16, 2013, 10:33:45 pm
(Huzzah! My Internet has stopped getting screwed over.)

You are correct, CT5Holy. That issue is something that still applies to the AI, meaning that they most likely wouldn't try to dispel Poison unless it was part of something else like Nurse or Life Song or maybe Masamune.

As for just making Wiznaibus a mini-Nameless Dance as Dokurider suggested, I'm for that since I concur that Wiznaibus is never going to outdo Lore without becoming busted itself, especially since Scholars/Druids are going to be able to equip Shields now; well that and Lore being subject to Short Charge, Oil & Absorb strategies while Wiznaibus isn't. That said, I don't think Poison itself would be enough, especially given all the Regen and the fact that so many things block Poison or even heal it besides Regen.

Since we're talking about this, I actually have two suggestions with regards to bettering Dance (directly):


1. Wiznaibus dies and "becomes" Dirty Dance: Add All or Nothing Poison & Oil at 50%.

2. Nameless Dance loses Add: Random Oil and gains Add: Random Immobilize; its chance to add status remains the same at 50%.


I think these changes would be beneficial for several reasons:


1. As pointed out by both CT5Holy and Dokurider, having Wiznaibus's replacement not do damage means it doesn't auto-lose to half of the Reactions that exist even when it's actually doing its damn job. Doing no damage means it sets off nothing. That's the most beneficial aspect on top of still "working" with Mime (whenever they decide to work).


2. Hawk's Eye needs to lose Add: Poison (or Add: Oil) anyway, so having it get replaced in terms of its status by something that doesn't automatically do 100+ damage (at 100% chances except with Projectile Guard) allows the strategy to still exist. Add: Poison & Oil still existing, but existing in a less overpowering form would definitely help keep and make the metagame more diverse beyond the current "have Projectile Guard or Cursed Ring or die from getting shot in the face" one we have. (For the record, I'd still be fine with Hawk's Eye doing damage & adding Oil at 100%, it just needs to not add Poison on top of that and needs to probably cost 10 MP, especially with the MP increase in clothes.)


3. Adding more than Poison means it isn't auto trumped by the aforementioned Nurse or Regenerator...or Auto Potion (still) or Move-HP Up or the new instant Cure...or the many items that outright block Poison. This while at the same time making it so that it's not such a bizarre combination (like say, Oil &, I don't know, Stop) that you have to go out of your way to block it without being so common that one single chemist item or spell gets rids of it (like with Kiyomori, though that's necessary since Kiymori is 100%). Dirty Dance would still be blocked by 108 Gems and Platina Helmet, which are items that already on the rise in use anyway, so it would still be "fair".


4. As for Nameless Dance losing Oil and gaining Immobilize, that decision was made for three reasons. The first reason is that I'm still of the opinion that, as with Bad Luck, every status that Nameless Dance can add needs to be able to stand on its own due to the nature of its randomness. As many people have lamented time and time again, Oil doesn't and buffing it even further to make it stand on its own would probably break it given the absurd amounts of damage that it allows for now; part of the problem with that is that, aside from Nameless Dance, every other instance of Oil is literally on something that's already potentially very damaging anyway (Fire, Salamander, Hawk's Eye, etc.). So moving Oil to Dirty Dance solves that "problem".

The second reason is that Immobilize/Don't Move is easily the weakest of the current negative abilities or, at least, definitely the one sees the most use. Yet it stands on its own as seen with the still kinda-dubious buff to Time Mage's Don't Move and much maligned Leg Aim, the AI is willing to use Don't Move and Don't Move would greatly benefit all Dances while also being something that's easy enough to block and to cure and not as devastating as Stop (or Disable/Don't Act).

The third and final reason is that adding Don't Move to Nameless Dance wouldn't screw over Last Dance given CT 00 may be similar to Don't Move, but is different enough that it should be able to survive (especially given the same JP cost...and Last Dance [& Last Song] going up to 40%).


While we're on this and ways to directly or indirectly make Dance as a whole more usable, I'm still of the opinion that Battle Song and Magic Song never needed the boost from 50% to 66%. While yes they should both be better than their respective Dances, the Songs already being way easier to build around and a lot more difficult to counter makes them being a whooping 26% more likely to hit than the Dances rather unnecessary; this especially when the Songs can still be Mimic'd and can't be shut up nearly as easily as Dance given that any team with a Bard almost always has Angel Song.

Shrug. It might just be me since I brought this up months ago and everyone else said nothing except for Raven, who disagreed, though that seemed to more about reminding me that the quadratic damage was fixed. So meh.

As for Life Song and Nameless Song probably merging, that I'm actually against. Both are fine as it is. They just "override" each others priorities' given that the AI won't use either until at least one of its allies are or itself is hurt. The only buff I'd be behind for Life Song would be making it (and Dirty Dance...and Witch Hunt & Angel Song) all CT 5 rather than CT 6 (and CT 4); okay, you could maybe buff Witch Hunt slightly more because of Absorb MP, but I'm pretty ambivalent about that.

As for Nameless Song, I think it would be fine to buff that by giving it the ability to add Haste in addition to the other statuses (though maybe Reraise or Reflect should go), especially since Nameless Dance can add Slow.

That's it though. Allowing Life Song the ability to heal and buff more things than health is just asking for trouble to me, especially when Song is already "better" than Dance currently or at least far easier to use.


P.S. Yes, I am still aware that among other things, I still owe Unction "research". I'll post that on Saturday...probably.

P.P.S. I am no longer of the opinion that Death needs to be (heavily) buffed. It's just...really swing-y and some people are (way) more lucky with it than others, like Vigilanti or Celdia. Proof of this when I finally post up my videos around...midnight tonight (so in like five or so hours).

P.P.P.S. Damn it. I really need to proofread much better.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 16, 2013, 11:55:54 pm
Making Dance like Lore surely would make the AI less stupid about cleansing status ailments.  There's nothing like going into battle with Eye Drops and Esuna only to witness your AI refuse to cleanse Blind because an enemy dancer won't stop dancing.  I support the motion to make Dance like Lore.

On the subject of Blind, I think it is time we give Blind (and, by extension, Silence) a CT.   The AI refuses to cleanse Blind even at the best of times since its decision-making process is insensitive to hit rates.  If Orochimaru Fang is implemented (12 WP Ninjatou that inflicts Blind at 50%), then melee builds without Angel Rings are going to be nonviable in a tournament setting.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 17, 2013, 12:36:49 am
To clarify, you mean make Dances like Lore in that Dances do not persist?

I'm pretty sure Life Song and Nameless Song are not ok in their current form seeing how no one uses either of them (literally for Nameless Song).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 17, 2013, 01:29:18 am
Yeah, so that a dancer would not be performing Nameless Dance when the opposing party gets its next turn, allowing the opposing party to cleanse ailments.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 17, 2013, 04:19:22 am
(I'm not sure how I feel about Songs & Dances not persisting ultimately, though I'm not immediately it against, especially since the AI is dumb about re-starting Songs & Dances when it doesn't have to [and shouldn't] switch and it would solve some problems beyond that.)

People use Life Song; just not very many. That's nitpicking perhaps, but certainly more people use Life Song than Nameless Song, which, again, conflicts with it, or Cheer Song, which suffers both from the above "re-Singing" problem & Quickening's entire existence. By Hades, I wouldn't even be surprised if people used Life Song more than Last Song, especially with Last Song (& Last Dance) having lowered chances to go off now. And really there's little reason to want to use Life Song anyway when Battle Song & Magic Song are even more braindead now and you both want your Bard to keep Singing that at almost all costs and both of them feed into forms of healing with Chakra & various magicks respectively even before absorb.

Life Song is just not helped by being slow as it is at CT 6 just because people were annoyed when it and Wiznaibus were CT 4 and easy to "spam" with Mimes. The problem was way more with Wiznaibus at the time (and even then it still lost to half of the reactions), but Life Song got dragged down anyway due to parity. Like Witch Hunt, I could see perhaps upping its output a bit more and maybe making the chance for Regen (a bit) higher, but it really doesn't need the chance to add any other statuses IMO. It just needs more speed or a more of a chance to add Regen if it's going to have to compete with Cure 3, Cure 4, Moogle, Murasame & Masamune (and Regen) and be slower than all of them (presently). Besides, adding more statuses to Life Song would just make it even less reliable unless you're going to suggest making its ability to add status around the 50+% range and even then that's unreliable because a) it's still random and b) it's still not 100% since that would likely be "broken".

As for Nameless Song, all you seriously have to do is add Haste to it and the AI (and by extension, players/creators) will start using it. Either Haste or Defending will have the AI use the damn thing proactively even and I really don't see a problem with Haste if, again, Nameless Dance is already potentially adding Slow (and Haste is being thrown around almost everywhere at 100% anyway via Masamune [or Yell]); Defending is "meh", partly because it still outright doubles evasion, which "bothers" me--otherwise I'd suggest maybe "fixing" Life Song by turning into a miniature, mass Nurse.

Speaking of Nameless Song & Nameless Dance, I'll partly amend my suggestion above: Nameless Song & Nameless Dance should probably have their chances to hit increased to 66%. The Nameless Arts should be the only Song & Dance abilities with 66% though. Everything else should either be 100% (Witch Hunt, Life Song, Angel Song) or equal to or lower than 50%.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on April 18, 2013, 04:04:40 am
I just noticed something about Nameless Song...it adds Reflect, but isn't reflect a neutral status?  Imagine how someone with White Magic Healing feels about getting reflect cast on their allies?  I'm having trouble thinking of anything that can replace reflect besides Haste though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on April 18, 2013, 09:20:40 pm
Quote from: reinoe on April 18, 2013, 04:04:40 am
I just noticed something about Nameless Song...it adds Reflect, but isn't reflect a neutral status?  Imagine how someone with White Magic Healing feels about getting reflect cast on their allies?  I'm having trouble thinking of anything that can replace reflect besides Haste though.


We could go back to the good old days when it added Reraise, although that might create a problem. The only other "positive" status I can really think of is Transparent and that would be quite interesting. Float would also be another option, but that would really mess up some Earth-based teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 18, 2013, 10:33:18 pm
(Uh, Nameless Song already adds Reraise still. It's just not being used for that between Life Song conflict, general AI conflict, the various Initial: Reraise items being good, Dragon Spirit and the really dumb, instant 100% Reraise that Paladin has access to at present.)

Nameless Song adding Reflect is fine. Honestly, if you're trying to use White Magic with Nameless Song when you know in advance that it has a chance of adding Reflect and you don't have any way around that, then it's really your own damn fault as a team-builder. As dumb as the AI can be at times, that wouldn't be a mistake of its own making for once.

All Nameless Song needs is the chance to add Haste and to up its hit chance to 66%. It  may need to lose Reflect (or Reraise) because of how valuable Haste can be, but not because of White Magick.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 19, 2013, 09:21:54 pm
How straightforward is it to make Transparent cancel the affected unit's P-EV and M-EV?  If Transparent cancels all evasion, then I would be a little more comfortable with letting Hidden Knife stick around.  We could also create new skills that apply Transparent offensively to help take down units that stack EV.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 19, 2013, 11:43:41 pm
(It probably would be rather straightforward to make Transparent shut off the affected unit's P-EV and M-EV unless there's something I'm not sure of that's hardcoded...which is possible since I suck a coding.)

Either way, Hidden Knife still needs to lose Speed +1 if it's keeping Always: Transparent. That or lose Always: Transparent if it's keeping Speed +1. Losing all evasion formally doesn't really matter all that much if you're still able to murder everything to with Kagesougi but aren't as dumb as the Berserk AI is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on April 21, 2013, 12:34:44 am
Inspired by CT5HOLY's comments that "we need ideas, even if they're bad" during the 1hr 5 minute video he made.  Here are my thoughts on Wiznaibus.

There's no way to "fix" wiznaibus if we're judging by the metric of it getting made useless by saves, HP RESTORE, and Autopotion. It's unfortunate that Wiznaibus just happens to get negated by several very good reactions.  I often look at old battle arena matches.  Wiznaibus spam+mime teams used to be pervasive.  But it's not that Wiznaibus got significantly weaker, the metagame simply shifted.  Adding poison is a nice for sandbagging but otherwise can anything really be done?

One way to judge if Wiznaibus is "broken" is by having a team that spams Wiznaibus fight against a team that does not use one of those reactions.

Avalanche's "Circulus Terastris"(the only team in Arena that's using Wiznaibus) vs SoySauceMaster's "Smiles and Frowns".

P.S. I was looking at old Balance discussions and there was genuine concern about poison being OP if it lasted beyond death but it turned out not to be a big deal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 21, 2013, 05:24:04 am
reinoe: A huge change happened to Wiznaibus: it went from 4 CT to 6 CT. That meant Wiznaibus only went off twice per turn instead of 3 times per turn on an 8 speed unit, like Dancers. That's a lot less damage being put out.
Also, that's not a good way to judge an ability, since those reactions will be used, especially Auto Potion. I suppose we could see how it's used in a favorable scenario, but it's just unrealistic.

On a side note, I think Cursed Ring should lose +1 Speed and/or lose Null: Holy. As people have said, high Speed + Cursed Ring is good because you get your turns faster -> you get up quicker. I don't think the +1PA and MA is nearly as consequential as the +1 Speed. The guarantee that your unit will come back from Cursed Ring is really nice, especially since they can be easily dropped courtesy of Raise 2/Murasame/Items/etc.

Otabo: no, that vid hardly counts as conclusive evidence. Your team was not being pressured at all, so it could leisurely build up Speed. Your team was never at any point in danger of dying. I am fairly certain that a team with a solid offense can punch through Twisted Fate, because as I mentioned in the vid, I think your team takes too long to set up.

Phoenix Blade is interesting, and I don't think we've seen anyone use it well enough yet to warrant its removal/demonstrate it's truly overpowered. So far we've seen that it can be an effective tool, and those are good to have in a game.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 21, 2013, 06:46:01 am
(Nice to have more people on the Quickening & Phoenix Blade hate trains considering how much I've been speaking out about those two things.

I still want to know what people think about Cursed Ring probably "needing" to lose +1 Sp though it now guarantees resurrection on the fourth turn for some weird, probably Item-based reason. [Oh, heh. It would seem that CT5Holy at least chimed in about while I've been typing this up off and on considering how distracted I got by Youtube and typing up something else.])

I'd argue that Poison lasting past death is a big deal, but it's just like the least of the "big deals" currently existing at present between Kagesougi, Spellguns, Phoenix Blade, Hidden Knife, Quickening and various other things that "should" be "fixed" one way or the other. It helps that it's only a "big deal" to mages, that Wizard's Poison sees no use, that very few teams make effective use of Kiyomori--the one usable non-damaging Poison attack--as it is, that Masamune is nigh ubiquitous and that, for some reason, quite a few people still thought Hawk's Eye was bad until a few months ago. The increase in Cursed Ring & 108 Gems use and Phoenix Blade not really giving a crap about Poison ultimately doesn't really help it stand out either.

The problem with Poison lasting past death to me is, still, that aside from nipping Phoenix Down's usage a bit, it lasting past death seems do (way) more harm than good. I say this in the sense that it just makes already good techniques like Raise 2, Chakra, Stigma Magic, Masamune and Murasame all the more prevalent while screwing over already underused abilities like Wish, the lesser Cures, Moogle and, to a degree, Life Song. Of the underused techniques that have benefited from Poison, the only one that really has seen a big boost is Antidote and that's far more because it got upgraded to also cure Darkness/Blind than anything else. People still aren't really using Regen (the spell), mostly because of Masamune's stupidity & Nurse, and people still aren't really using Heal; the same goes for P Bag and, to a lesser degree, Light Robe despite them losing their weaknesses to dark, partly because they (necessarily) get screwed by Poison hard.

It doesn't really help mages either that both Hawk's Eye and Kagesougi both cause Poison & do hell of a lot of damage on top of it. If you can live through the initial assault without being on death's door, then you can get a turn and probably cure yourself of Poison before you die at least. If you're a squishier unit, like say every mage (save arguably Oracle), then you're basically screwed if you got Poisoned before dropping. Now the already heavily damaging units can just ignore you since you're doomed to die even if revived before you can do anything since it's not like most mages have Item or Punch Art or Basic Skill or Chivalry as secondaries. Even if they're using Draw Out, then the AI will probably have the unit Masamune themselves instead of Murasame if it has both, meaning they'll probably just die again after they gain back a pittance of HP, especially since mages tend not to [be able to] carry Move-HP Up.

That's part of the reason why I think both Hawk's Eye and Kagesougi need to lose Poison, but considering I couldn't even really get much consensus on Kagesougi losing Don't Act when I initially proposed, I didn't bother saying anything. (Seriously, Ninja already had/has an attack that caused Poison anyway in Shuriken, which really needs its Poison proc rate increased to a base 20% and a slight MP decrease as it is most likely. The only person who has even really used it in 1.38 is Ahong.)

Furthermore, Poison after death only seems like it's not a "big deal" because it's really not doing its job when you think about it. Or, rather, it can't do that job that was supposedly envisioned of it to universally keep units down or whatever because all of the classes with the most HP (sans Mime) have an innate way of countering it. Monks get Stigma Magic, Chakra, the sole access to headbands and, if counting Reactions, HP Restore. All of the armored classes also get non-Accessory Poison protection in both (Platina) Helmet and (Diamond) Armor on top of having their own, frequently used ways to get around Poison: Paladins get Nurse & the easily absorbed Grand Cross; Samurai get Masamune & Murasame; Lancers get Jump. Meanwhile, mages only get access to P Bag & Light Robe outside of accessories, none of which block Silence or even Berserk, which are both items that make being Poisoned worse. Whoops.

Yeah, some classes (read: multiple classes) are naturally going to need to have a way get around something or else that thing dominates the metagame. *cough*Spellguns*cough*Hidden Knife*cough*

The thing is there are also naturally going to be problems when all of those "some classes" are classes that have high HP and tend to not die are the ones with a solution to the "something" that is specifically a status upgraded to worsen your chances of recovering after death. With equal opportunity for protection or recovery without dipping into sub-par skill sets for most of their set-ups, mages end up being the ones to suffer since they can almost never do anything to survive after they get revived, instead having to rely on eating up two of their teams actions just to get KO'd again anyway cause they were likely still in kill range if not brought back by Raise 2.

So in addition to Cursed Ring giving Poison the finger and Phoenix Blade effectively doing the same, you have all of the highest HP, non-squishy classes basically shrugging off Poison even if they manage to die. Meanwhile, mages just get another weakness if they're unfortunate enough to survive and get Poisoned before being dropped.

Is Poison lasting past death overpowered? No, probably not. Is it a big deal or at least a big inequity? Definitely, especially since the only mages meant to be a "glass cannon" are Wizard & Summoner (and I guess maybe Scholar since its uber-Wizard)...and even Priest arguably does that better between Holy stupidity and having the only instant ability of all mages in Dia.

Will the proposal to make Cure instant fix this at least somewhat? Definitely. Will that proposal alone solve the problem? Definitely not, especially when it's just going to make the already powerful White Magick even stronger (even before the fact that Wall also "needs" to be fixed, at least compared to Iron Will).

That said, I'm not sure what the hell to do to "fix" that issue outside of the aforementioned fixes to Hawk's Eye & Kagesougi, which is a problem because I do think it's a "big deal" while also thinking it would be nice to see Poison (the spell) & Poison Bow actually see some use. Similarly, given my proposed fix to Wiznaibus would see more Poison flying around...yeah.

Actually, I did have a thought as soon as I saw that you had posted, reinoe: Perhaps make it so that Reflect Ring also blocks Poison. This in addition to continuing to Block: Berserk since Dispel is getting a boost, meaning it will make it see ever increasing use and I feel like the Accessory slot should constantly being doing something unless its stolen--my issue with Salty Rage. As such, +1 MA and Block: Berserk is pretty damn underwhelming with a Dispelled initial Reflect, especially if Berserk is made to take a CT.

(I also probably wouldn't mind Diamond Armor losing block: Poison and getting a bit more HP, but I already know I'm not going to have support there, so....)



TL;DR: Poison lasting after death is a big deal. It's just there are a lot of "bigger deals" and it's primarily a big deal only to mages (and Mimes), who get another, rather unnecessary weakness.


P.S. I still say "Dirty Dance" is the way to go for replacing Wiznaibus, and not just because I thought it up.

P.P.S. I still say "Phoenix Blade" isn't actually interesting. It's different compared to every other weapon. But "interesting" is..."pushing it" considering we all know what's going to happen when a Phoenix Blade user dies, especially if two of them are on a team.

P.P.P.S. It would seem that in addition to still somewhat abusing bold and quotation marks (and eyes), I'm now abusing post-script. Joy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on April 21, 2013, 08:17:48 am
Quote from: CT5Holy on April 21, 2013, 05:24:04 am
reinoe: A huge change happened to Wiznaibus: it went from 4 CT to 6 CT. That meant Wiznaibus only went off twice per turn instead of 3 times per turn on an 8 speed unit, like Dancers. That's a lot less damage being put out.
Also, that's not a good way to judge an ability, since those reactions will be used, especially Auto Potion. I suppose we could see how it's used in a favorable scenario, but it's just unrealistic.


Does the CT change in the grand scheme of things really matter then?  If the biggest complaint about Wiznaibus is that it's completely negated by some of the most powerful reactions, in the game then shouldn't it go back to being CT4?  The problem of course is that this could backfire and make HP RESTORE, AUTOPOTION, and the various saves even more pervasive.  But that just would prove what I said in the beginning.  It could be that there simply is no "rescuing" wiznaibus.  Either it's set to CT 4, goes off three times and is overpowered or it's set to CT 6 and goes off twice and is underpowered.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on April 21, 2013, 08:22:12 am
From what I can tell, it'd be better to change what absolutely needs changing first, then see how things like Wiznaibus fare.

Trying to change too much at once won't go too well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 21, 2013, 10:28:11 am
(Pretty sure we passed the "trying to change too much at once" barrier with 1.39 a while ago.)

Like mid-way through the equipment stuff and especially after FFMaster came back and announced "oh, hey, Scholars are dying and Mimes will be able to use RSMs".

Just saying.

Might as well go for broke, really, since 1.39a is going to be hilariously busted as it is regardless. Like the Rainbow Edition of ARENA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 22, 2013, 02:10:24 am
Correction, CT5Holy.  The big change that made Wiznaibus actually worth a damn is that FFMaster actually went and fixed Auto Potion, because he moved shit around on the ISO without testing it and made it so Auto Potion literally did nothing for many versions of Arena.  Considering that Auto Potion is the most prevalent "Wiznaibus Screwer" of them all and the one that gets the largest number of opportunities to trigger and perform that Wiznaibus Screw, it's had far more of an influence than the CT change ever could have.

Though funnily enough, skimming the other posts makes me want to at least leave you all with a thought:  People are saying so many things are "a problem" (Quickening, Phoenix Blade, Cursed Ring, Kagesougi, Hawk's Eye, Magic Guns, Hidden Knife, etc. etc. etc.), has it ever occurred to you that what you have isn't a big laundry list of problems, but rather, a metagame?  I really recommend sitting and stewing on that thought for a bit, because the list of "problems" seems like it's getting so large it's beginning to reek of "nerf everything that's good because it's good and I don't like it being good."  I'm pretty sure Arena already went through that phase once, then I walked in with Y U SO DERP and basically showed why all those nerfs that piled up over time were a goddamn terrible idea to do.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on April 22, 2013, 04:30:11 am
QuoteI'm not sure if this is still correct, but something people noticed with Nameless Dance a while back was that the AI never bothered to cure any of the statuses inflicted because the AI believed the statuses would just get reapplied by the dance. If this is still the case, then your Wiznaibus would simply poison everyone on the enemy team very effectively, without generating the wasted turns that you intend.


Well, it's sounds pretty decent either way. As for not curing Nameless Dance's statuses: Silence and Darkness, I've noticed, are lower on curing priority than say, Poison. The AI will often leave Silence and Darkness on for absurd stretches of time, even if it's noticeably screwing them over and are otherwise perfectly capable of curing it. In fact, I'm convinced that Blind and Silence are dead last on the list when it comes to getting cured. They will definitely cure Oil if it's a threat and negate Slow if they can, though. So I'm pretty sure the AI will react to Wiznaibus' poison like always.

Adding Oil in the mix is okayish with me.

QuoteMagic Guns

I've been thinking about this for a while now, but now that you mention it...

The main reason people (myself included) have come to condemn Magic Guns was the SCC tournament, which was strife with low HP units that didn't have the regular protections that would usually check or counter. For instance, most mage teams could never survive against a Magic Gun team, except ironically Wizards because they could just spec Nether Magic and gain some survivability but the resident Wizard team ended up not doing that.

Maybe Magic Guns aren't so bad? I think making people think twice about tacking on Raise 2 is a good thing and really hammers the lesson home about making yourself unnecessarily vulnerable to Magic. I think the question depends on what counters Magic Guns other than more Magic Guns? Is Magic Gun and Pilgrimage too much for most teams to handle without explicitly blocking against it? Is it too damaging against 40 Faith units? Is it overcentralizing Arena?

QuoteOil doesn't need anything else.


If Oil was to be made it's own spell, it would have trouble standing as a debilitating status, even when used in a AoE fashion. Yeah it makes big numbers, but more often than not, it's overkill and it only does what just attacking them would already do.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 22, 2013, 10:31:46 am
The current version of magic guns is like Yun in Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition: you can dabble with other characters, but you pick Yun by default if you are serious about winning.  This makes the meta-game too simple: you're either Yun or anti-Yun.

From here, I think it is best if we nerf the big offenders (e.g. magic guns, quickening, hidden knife), and buff many other things (e.g. time magick, ninjutsu, low-tier equipment) so that there is more than one big contender in the meta-game.  In my opinion, the ratio of viable to nonviable equipment and skills in Arena is currently around 1:3.  I would like to make that ratio 3:1.  This is why most of my posts call for buffs.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on April 22, 2013, 03:49:34 pm
A long post so I'm putting it in spoilers...

Like Raven, I used to play a CCG.  For something to be "nerf-worthy" it has to be able to beat everything no matter what happens.  For me only Quickening Stall, OP Magic Guns, and Kagesougi's DA proc are the only things that fit into that category.  For person "X" there could be something else.  For person "Y" it could be yet another thing.

For example, Cursed Ring dies to RAISE 2, Consecrate, and Seal evil.  They're also hurt by potions, and if the person who built the team doesn't protect against fire, then the team is also weak against that elemnt.

Wiznaibus not strong enough?  Can we really be sure when there's only one team using it at this point?  Furthermore Circulus Terastris went 1win 2 losses against Gaignun's "Patch Me".  Ironically enough "Patch Me" focuses on abusing the "brokenness" of Attack UP+Hidden Knife and it still lost once.  Which is where I segue to Hidden Knife+Attack UP...

There are things that can be done to stop units that abuse Hidden Knife+ATTACK UP NINJAS as exemplified by the losses "Patch Me" suffers.  Granted, "Patch Me" usually wins the overall matches, but observing the rounds lost is very telling...    For something to be "broken" there should be no way to reliably mitigate it's power or it's weaknesses are not sufficient.  Is there a way to stop Hidden Knife+ATTACK UP ninjas?  Yes, ironically by hitting them in the exact same manner that they hit their opponents only at a range.  They will lose to Geomancy, unevadable summons, Lore spam, Wiznaibus, JUMPS, magic guns, or -ton abilities with concentrate.  Why?  Because in order to use Hidden Knife+Attack up a person must sacrifice HP.  Ninjas are already glass cannons and to maximize the potential to one-shot a unit they must sacrifice even more HP.  There are both magical and physical ways to stop Ninja's being abusive.

That's why I was in favor of lowering the power of Hidden Knife.  Even with Attack Up, if Hidden Knife's power is lowered you're getting diminished returns.  Wasn't the benefit is Hidden Knife always being able to hit the opponent?  If so then there's no need for it to have a high Attack Power, especially considering that Ninjas with Hidden Knife get access to a second weapon.

But compare Hidden Knife's problem to Quickening Stall, or more specifically Wiz' (S1).  Unless you're building a team specifically to beat it, I don't think I've ever actually seen WIZ team actually lose.  Similarly Magic Guns.  Unless you're building a team specifically designed to beat magic guns then your team is at a distinct disadvantage.  Furthermore a magic gun team will almost always flat out beat a team of spellcasters.  That's just not fair.  That's why I am convinced that Quickening does indeed need to die and Magic Guns need to have their power lowered somewhat.  Some things I'm "iffy on though".


I'm not sure what to do about poison to be honest.  For all the potential it has to wreck havok I can only think of two instances where poison beyond death really mattered.  The Damned can you remind us of some matches where poison was especially problematic?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on April 22, 2013, 06:29:09 pm
Quote from: reinoe on April 22, 2013, 03:49:34 pm
I'm not sure what to do about poison to be honest.  For all the potential it has to wreck havok I can only think of two instances where poison beyond death really mattered.  The Damned can you remind us of some matches where poison was especially problematic?



Just a small sample, but check round 2 of This Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7cZghOoolY) (Round 2 starts around the 8 minute mark). Pretty much, my Chemist wasted turns reviving my Time Mage and she died the following turn due to Poison.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on April 22, 2013, 06:45:16 pm
Poison forced a res loop against Item.

Poison was given Death Persist for the expressed purpose of forcing res loops against Item.

Problem is?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 22, 2013, 06:49:16 pm
(For the record, I've disliked Magic Guns since vanilla or rather "before it was cool". It helped that I was taking a "break" from FFH when the whole "Grand Cross Spellgun" metagame apparently rampant or else I probably would have beem bitching about it even more heavily then.)

Gaignun already made an extremely apt comparison. It's not that Spellguns are so broken that they're basically unbeatable like Ivan Ooze (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY) from the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers game. (Forgive the video's hyperbole at some points.) It's just that they are like SSF4: AE Yun and so obviously at the Toppest of the Top Tier out the gate that they require no thought in terms of set-up to attain an easy, almost guaranteed victory (barring AI stupidity, which is really the only thing "mudding" a lot of the disputable things). When it doubt, dive-kick it (read: shoot it) out.

Considering with that, if spellguns are SSF4: AE Yun, then all mages are basically Dhalsim from that same game. An 8-2 match-up that only becomes doable with the absolute right plays from the get-go (read: Projectile Guard or White Robe & Setiemson and/or Magic Defend UP) and even then you're still fighting a losing battle based on luck.

To add insult to injury, at least Yun & Dhalsim differed play-style-wise. Literally the only advantage that attack mages have over spellguns is that they can possibly hit more than one unit and aren't Direct. That it's. Current spellguns basically obviate attack mages or, hell, every mage in general that isn't using White Magick or, to a lesser degree, Summon Magick (or Lore) for revival (or to guarantee hitting everyone on the field). How is that possibly fair?

Even then, though, it's not like I want to get rid of spell-guns, which is where I could see the metagame accusation actually having weight...if I wanted to get rid of more than only two--Quickening & Phoenix Blade--of those things outright. Even then, I want to get rid of those things outright not because I simply don't like them, but because I feel like they don't anything good to the metagame at all:


1. Quickening: This literally has no counter. The only thing that negatively affects Speed is Slow Dance, which loses to Quickening hard between having a third of the hit rate and being not instant.

2. Phoenix Blade: The only counter is Weapon Break...which is blocked by Maintenance and which hardly everyone carries anyway. Even break teams tend to not use Weapon Break that much, only using Shield Break less IIRC. Meanwhile, literally nothing else keeps a duo of Phoenix Blades users from just stalling the game for 10+ minutes, sticking the AI in the same idiotic loop because it's blind to the fact that it shouldn't be focusing on them (if other units are still alive); all the AI sees is "attack the Unit with the lowest health!" over and over again, without realizing something is going on. The only thing keeping Phoenix Blade from being even more busted is that the user always gets back up in Critical, meaning they focus on healing rather than getting an unearned action ad infinitum. Yay. How exciting and interesting.



Everything else is less a matter of "this is a such a problem that needs to be removed from the metagame" and "this is a problem that over simplifies the metagame when it doesn't need to":


1. Spell Guns: Talked about above. It seems pretty obvious that it needs to change over to Nether Gun formula, even before Pilgrimage made them even dumber than usual since you can only do so much to "nerf" it until it's just not worth using. Only forcing them to be Two-Handed isn't going to do very much; it will do is make it so that having M-EV isn't one more advantage that spell gunners have over all mages. Them losing Shields sure as hell isn't going to stop Pilgrimage Spellgunners.


2. Cursed Ring: This isn't a problem for the most part. The only aspect that is a problem is its guaranteed revival and that's mostly because of Quickening--my, what a big surprise. The "should it lose Sp +1?" proposal was just something I was wondering aloud; I am actually a fine with it keeping Null: Holy, though admittedly that's partly because Priest's Holy is kinda stupid right now even without Golden Hairpin's overpowered aspect.

If anything, it's other things related to Cursed Ring that are more problematic to the metagame (besides Quickening), namely Consecration and Seal Evil being both too expensive and, in the case of Consecration, inconsequential. Adding Dead to something guaranteed to get back up is hardly appealing, especially when it's not even guaranteed to hit, and the only reason I'd think someone should ever use would be a) if they're using Blood Sword or Bloody Strings & not using Snipe or b) have a Zombie-team & have Steal Accessory. Otherwise, Consecration blows right now. Hard. Like Tobias Funke.

Going further with that, both of the specific anti-Zombie techniques being so bad just serve to make the already powerful Raise 2 even more "needed", which is also bad for the metagame, especially since White Magick is only to get stronger.


3. Kagesougi: As much as it makes me roll my eyes, I don't ultimately want Kagesougi dead. It just want it to not be so "herp derp" brain that you can stick on every unit with Two Swords (or higher-end Longbow) and do 250+ instant damage, likely, guaranteed for 5 MP with an almost 100% chance of status. Especially when some of those statuses are Don't Act & Poison.

It's severely under-costed for the ease of use and success and if anything it oversimplifies Ninjutsu. None of the other techniques even really matter anymore unless you're going out of your way to apply Innocent like my "Those Who Don't Fear Gods" team or Otabo's "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" team. Kagesougi having Poison makes the otherwise usable Shuriken redundant even though Ahong's team shows that Shuriken is/should be usable (and even though). It's just why sacrifice HP & evasion for max PA set-ups to get the most out of Shuriken when you can just slap Hidden Knife on, get a speed boost & Concentrate and Berserker Barrage about with Kagesougi, slaughtering everything without thought or effort?


4. Hawk's Eye: A lesser problem than the above, but it's also obviously under-costed for the fact that it does 150+ damage very easily at 100% (unless you, again, have Projectile Guard since it's used with Bows 99% of the time) that also adds both Oil and Poison...for only 8 MP. What. It just does too much. Way too much. It would be completely fine with just adding Oil, even on teams that don't use elements doubled by Oil since 100% damage from a distance without needing to use Concentrate is 100% damage. It's also made problematic since, again, Quickening, which increases its damage. Additionally, Clothes & Headgear are getting MP boosts and Ribbons/Headbands are likely to get more availability, it at the very least needs an MP boost.


5. Hidden Knife: I've always seen this as a problem from the beginning, but not entirely just for the Always: Transparent aspect. I've always been weary of it because of it had Always: Transparent and boosted Speed. Even with Blind actually affecting Transparent (and Concentrate) now, it's still the premiere Ninjato because of innate Two Swords, especially with Kagesougi around, which isn't going anywhere (and shouldn't). This in addition to us trying to finally make Ninjato beyond Hidden Knife and the +1 PA Ninjato (and, to a degree, the good, bugged Spell Edge's 50% Oil) worth using. It's just...why ever use anything else, when, again given a brain-dead option of guaranteed hits alongside more hits? So in my view, Hidden Knife either needs to lose Speed +1 or Always: Transparent since making it drop in power isn't going to do jackshit, just like with proposals to make Spellguns drop in power (again).


6. Songs & Dances: Not that this was listed, but since we're still talking about Wiznaibus and stuff, the reason I've been persistently scratching my head about Battle Song & Magic Song being buffed from 50% to 66% is because they were already good and the most used Songs. Pretty much no other song besides the two of them get used outside of Angel Song...and much of that is fuel Battle Song & Magic Song, which people can't really do anything about since a) Polka Polka & Disillusion are now so much lower than the Songs and b) Magic Ruin & Power Ruin are on a class both has horribly low MP & cares more about Quickening than anything else. They're pretty brain-dead to use as well while Last Song & Cheer Song, especially in light of Quickening, got over-nerfed hit-rate-wise for some reason and Life Song is iffy.

All the Songs still fair better than any Dance that isn't Nameless Dance or Witch Hunt and even the latter's use is...arguably between Move-MP Up and ever increased use of Absorb MP (which would otherwise be great). Polka Polka & Disillusion's hit rates are otherwise fine (I guess), but just can't compete with the unnecessarily, greatly increased hit rates of the opposing Songs; even Polka Polka & Disillusion went back to 50%, they'd still be pretty screwed with Songs at 66%. Last Dance like Last Song was over-nerfed when it never did anything of importance before, unlike Last Song. Slow Dance's hit rate is probably correct, but it's not worth using when Quickening exists and beats it effortlessly. And Wiznaibus just sucks giant, STD-riddled porn-star cock and, on top of that, it sucks said cock poorly.



So, yeah, that's kind of why I've been harping on the fact that Songs & Dance need a change in general, even if it was CT5Holy and others that brought up Wiznaibus needing a change first.

I don't intend to drop talking (read: kvetching) about any of these and you know I really could go on, but for now I won't since I think my point is understood, rambling though it tends to be.


TL;DR: Yes, every metagame is going to have top tier strategies. However, it is detrimental to a metagame if some things are so top tier that you basically have to pick them or directly counter them or you will almost always lose rather than merely having to try to account for them. Quickening, Spellguns and, to a (much) lesser degree, Phoenix Blade are that dominating. Granted, Phoenix Blade is only really "dominating" in the sense that like Quickening, there's no real way to fix it/make the AI not stupid against it, and that it Quickening just makes even dumber; that said, you could probably do something with an Always: Undead sword....

Everything else that's been mentioned as a problems are just things that further simplify and already simplified metagame and that, if "fixed", would allow for more diversity, which can only be a good thing unless the only changes you're making is nerfing everything, which isn't the case.


P.S. I would have to look through videos, reinoe, since I don't remember any specific match off the top of my head. I'm sure it's happened though, but it would take a while to find. I imagine a lot of the ones I would be able to find would be akin to TrueLight's, though, in the sense that even with it having the expressed purpose of forcing res loops against Phoenix Down, it's only really mages that are affected.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 22, 2013, 07:21:14 pm
That's not a problem. That's exactly what the Poison buff was intended to do. And someone dying to Poison doesn't happen nearly often enough for it to be an actual issue.

Gaignun: being nitpicky, but your analogy would be more accurate if you said Fei Long or Cammy - Yun got nerfed a while back IIRC.
That said, I am all for buffing weaker abilities and items.

I'm still not convinced on Quickening and Phoenix Blade just yet. I admit, I like pushing the power envelope. But I still think a strong offense can punch through them.
If I really had to say goodbye to one of them, it would be Quickening though. It is simply always useful, basically. Phoenix Blade is interesting in the team development process, and I'm sure I'm not the only one to find a lot of enjoyment in making the team itself. Besides, Always: Slow is a rather significant handicap. Less so for a defensive team that wants the game to go long in the first place, but such a team is more vulnerable in the early-middle stages of the game because a unit is getting less turns - less actions to help the team get to the late game.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on April 22, 2013, 07:50:03 pm
"There's" "nothing" "wrong" "with" "Poison". "It's" "doing" "exactly" "what" "it's" "supposed" "to" "do", "countering" "Phoenix" "D""o""w""n""."

""

Giving Quickening a CT (4 or 5 CT sounds fine to me) would sharply curb it's abuse. I'd rather try that before killing it dead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on April 22, 2013, 07:53:57 pm
I misspoke when I went on about lowering their power.  I believe you proposed, and the community overall accepted, the notion that Magic Guns should be made "nether guns" so that they can't be abused by Pilgrimage.  And they also won't kick Spellcasters in the nutz


If it has to change then I'd rather see it lose the +1speed.  Transparent is such an interesting mechanic.  Although I'm sure a power reduction would have a bigger benefit than the item losing it's speed bonus but I don't think this is something we (TheDamned and myself) will agree on.


I have nothing to say about Dancer abilities to be honest.  I just put it here so I can say "made you look"


Now that I think about it, Consecrate and Seal Evil should hit at 100%.  I remember when my MachineGunners went against undead units and Seal Evil missed twice.  TWICE!  That's two time.  One more time than once.  But it shouldn't have missed at all :wark:  Oh I'm just being silly now...but not about Consecration and Seal Evil.  Those really do need to hit at 100%

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 22, 2013, 09:47:24 pm
Quote from: reinoe on April 22, 2013, 07:53:57 pmI misspoke when I went on about lowering their power.  I believe you proposed, and the community overall accepted, the notion that Magic Guns should be made "nether guns" so that they can't be abused by Pilgrimage.  And they also won't kick Spellcasters in the nutz


Aye.  The nice thing about the nether formula is that spellcasters can more comfortably increase Fury than decrease Faith to reduce damage.  At the same time, increasing Fury exposes the spellcasters to physical damage.  It's a tradeoff that has not since been considered.  This will also keep the spellguns effective against 40-40 derp teams without elemental or oil protection.

Quote from: CT5Holy on April 22, 2013, 07:21:14 pm
Gaignun: being nitpicky, but your analogy would be more accurate if you said Fei Long or Cammy - Yun got nerfed a while back IIRC.


Yeah, you're right.  The Yun I spoke of was before the 2012 patch.  Turns out they're going to nerf Cammy, too, though!

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 22, 2013, 10:44:53 pm
(Oh, so the v2013 patch is actually finally going to be a thing? I thought it was just something people were longing for. Hunh.

*waits for Blanka to still destroy poor, poor T. Hawk for free and Honda to do the same to Juri*

Sigh.)

Yeah. If having to choose between Phoenix Blade and Quickening when it comes to what to kill and only being allowed to kill one, then, yes, I'd definitely go with killing Quickening. It literally adds nothing to the game strategy-wise and makes even otherwise fine things like Cursed Ring absurdly overpowered. As dumb as dual Phoenix Blade can be, it would at least be less dumb without Phoenix Blade and, at the very least, would mean that people would actually try to use Cheer Song again.

So I'd be "glad" with Phoenix Blade sticking around for one more version if Quickening dies the horrible death it's deserved from the get-go. I must confess seeing how Phoenix Blade would be without 100% Speed Boosting might be interesting, even if think it would still ultimately have to go.


Quote from: Dokurider on April 22, 2013, 07:50:03 pm
"There's" "nothing" "wrong" "with" "Poison". "It's" "doing" "exactly" "what" "it's" "supposed" "to" "do", "countering" "Phoenix" "D""o""w""n""."


Except that Phoenix Down was never really a problem. (Why did people think it was? I forget and I say this as someone who overall loathes Item/Chemist.)

Again, it's only the classes that were already squishy that have been really affected (read: screwed over) by Poison lasting after death, which kinda defeats the point since they're currently so easy to put back down even at full health. Similarly, in trying to screw over Phoenix Down, which at least 100% accurate, Poison after death has currently screwed over Wish more, since current Wish blows since it's literally just a worse version of Revive.

Admittedly, if Spellguns (and Kagesougi & Hawk's Eye) become less ridiculous, then I'll probably be fine with Poison lasting after death between Cure becoming instant and not needing Raise 2 to maybe not just die again, Poisoned or no. This even though White Magick is already strong and is only going to be getting stronger going into 1.39 regardless of what else happens.

Also, I can abuse quotations marks even worse if you want. Don't tempt me please.


Quote from: Dokurider on April 22, 2013, 07:50:03 pmGiving Quickening a CT (4 or 5 CT sounds fine to me) would sharply curb it's abuse. I'd rather try that before killing it dead.


Yeah...those aren't fine. The reason that Malroth proposed such a lengthy CT of 8 was because that would theoretically maybe stop the AI from ever letting it resolve at 13 Speed.

What you're proposing means that that the AI would only stop (maybe) letting it resolve at 25 or 20 Speed respectively. Wiz's team usually destroys people before it even gets near 20, much less 25, so letting it have CT 4 or 5 isn't going to do very much outside of try to necessitate trying to carry Throw Stone or Sinkhole (or Bizen Boat) on every team. The same goes for ever other team that uses Quickening. They usually pretty much destroy people around 16 or 17 Speed.

This even before you realize that even Malroth's proposal doesn't take Short Charge into account, which runs into the same problem of your proposal, while you're proposal is shredded even more by Quickening becoming CT 2 or CT 3. Neither of you are also taking Cursed Ring or Phoenix Blade into account, which would still be stupidly overpowered with any form of Quickening, even if you made it like CT 10+ (in Phoenix Blade's case).

Quickening just needs to die. I honestly don't see why people are (still) making excuses for it. If you want to play around with Speed, then why aren't people petitioning FFMaster to make Cheer Song (or Last Song) actually worth using or making Speed Save (or Critical Quick) cost less rather than focusing on something so brain-dead?

Phoenix Blade I can maybe understand some people wanting to still play around with, but there is absolutely nothing redeeming about Quickening metagame-wise and there never has been.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: iamBQB on April 22, 2013, 11:48:16 pm
From what I remember as a lurker, it wasn't that Phoenix Down was a problem, but that Poison was a rather worthless status effect and it was thought that making it persist after death and act as a counter to PD would make it a more viable option to use.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 23, 2013, 01:25:52 am
(Ah, yes. That sounds about correct. Thank you.)

Still, I'm not sure it's worth it. Then again, I can't think of a way to improve Poison other hand, which is part of the problem.

Hmmm....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 27, 2013, 09:05:20 pm
The only think the only way to salvage Tsumazuku would be have it cancel charging/performing. I know there's refute, throw stone and sinkhole. But I think that will give Ninjitsu a little more variety in what it can do. Plus no the AI hasn't used Tsumazuku at all. So how about giving Tsumazuku cancel charging/performing instead of cancel haste?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 30, 2013, 04:30:40 am
(At the very least, Refute will be losing Cancel Charging & Performing even if for some reason FFMaster doesn't split it up whenever 1.39 comes out.)

That said, I was under the impression that Tsumazuku was outright dying regardless between Ninja likely getting Mushin (no Shin)--the renamed version of Thief's Heretic--and that anti-Masamune explosive tag move Gaignun suggested that I keep forgetting the name of.

I guess, provided that Quickening dies, giving a Cancel Charging & Performing move to Thief might not be too bad. Then again, Thief is already the fastest class and mages currently are getting screwed horribly enough as it is, so....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on April 30, 2013, 05:25:11 am
Quote from: The Damned on April 30, 2013, 04:30:40 amand that anti-Masamune explosive tag move Gaignun suggested that I keep forgetting the name of


Kibaku Fuda
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on May 13, 2013, 04:06:33 am
Thoughts on Poison/Regen damaging/healing HP and MP? I think it'd be pretty neat, and we know it's possible courtesy of (mild spoilers that i'm not bothering to put in a spoiler tag cause i'm silly) Jot5.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on May 13, 2013, 05:04:29 am
I'm tempted to give into endorsing this change because of all the whining surrounding Poison's Death Persistence as of late, but then again, it's just that, whining. I might endorse it if Regen was given MP Regen as well, making both statuses more generally useful instead of just punishing revival loops. However, there is a snag about just handing over MP Regen to Regen: Masamune. If Masamune gains MP recovery in addition to it's already potent properties, that could possibly tip Masamune back into being the dominant support skill again. So either this change shouldn't happen or it happens at the cost of Masamune getting completely altered.

Speaking of Draw Out, I'm going to post this again because it got glossed over when I posted it:
QuoteHeaven's Cloud (the Draw Out). Right now, it is the weakest draw out. It's distinguishing feature has a low proc rate, and even when it does proc, isn't that strong to begin with, and interferes with absorbing strategies. I propose that either it and Asura trade the friendly traits or Heaven's Cloud drops 20% Slow entirely.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on May 14, 2013, 07:23:32 am
I'm partial to creating MP regen/poison as a set of new status effects, entirely.  Then have White Magick Regen (and not Masamune) add both HP and MP regen.  Not sure how straightforward this is, though.  Could we just copy Regen's code over an unused status effect (such as blood suck), then change the active stat from HP to MP?  If the status effect table is evenly partitioned, it could be possible.

Also, we can add a bag that imparts MP regen so mages don't need to equip Move-MP UP all the time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on May 14, 2013, 06:15:17 pm
It's going to suck be that unit who is charging a spell and at the end of their turn, they're going to realize that the spell isn't going to happen due to not having enough MP =/

Ar least this might get people to use more Regen(the spell) & Wiznaibus.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on May 20, 2013, 08:13:42 pm
There is also an additional problem with MP Regen. One of the ways Iron Boots is balanced is that without Move MP Up, they have to find other ways of keeping their MP up. Implementing MP Regen can make Iron Boots users even harder to take out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on May 21, 2013, 06:38:17 am
(...Or you could just make Iron Boots [& Genji Armor] immune to the new MP Regen status, which in my controlling methods, I'll just refer to as "Refresh" from now on.

There. Problem solved before it even becomes a problem, though it was a valid concern otherwise.)

Weird to realize I've been away from ARENA for over a month already. There's things I still owe even before bothering Dokurider for a memory card again and now I'm behind on a huge backlog of videos again. Ugh.

That said, I "felt" I had to pipe on this particular discussion, especially since it would taking notes from Journey of the Five.

First and foremost, I concur with Gaignun that if this chance has to happen at all (and I think it should wait until 1.40), then "we" should definitely look at trying to implement the MP Regen ("Refresh") and MP Poison (uh, "Addle"? "Pain"? "Meltdown"? "Amnesia"? "Fog"? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxh5rq_CGJI)) as separate status from regular HP Regen and HP Poison respectively. There's certainly space for it, after all:


1. The space above Crystal is still unused (except, probably, by Kagesougi technically).
2. Blood Suck is never going to be used in ARENA.
3. Chicken is no longer being used.
4. Treasure is no longer being used.
5. Wall is still unused and that's what Pride's hack for MP Regen originally overrode.
6. Dark/Evil Looking still isn't being used either even though that still has graphic problems that need to be hammered out.
7. Confusion is no longer being used and is unlikely to ever return.



In addition to those empty spaces, it would be a good experiment to see if you can actually link the CT counts of separate statuses together. I know that formerdeathcorps has talked about it among his own patch ideas, but I've yet to see it confirmed by anyone. Then again, I don't know much about coding--I R SMART--and such still, so maybe it's already known to be possible.

Regardless, I do think that at least considering it in-depth beyond "hey, this might help Regen the spell" is something that needs to be looked into.

Now, this is where I'd probably do something even more long-winded in the way of analysis, but I have shit to do, including make some Jot5 videos public, and basically have to be up for more than 24 hours. So, I'll pass at this moment, and just "briefly" list what bringing these two new statuses in would actually affect:


a. Regen (the spell--sees very little use; this would benefit the most from MP Regen even though White Magick as a whole is already getting a large buff going into 1.39; would probably need to be increased to 100 JP).

b. Regenerator (this is already usable and doesn't need MP Regen since otherwise it would obviate Absorb Used MP and MP Restore).

c. P Bag (usable, but could maybe use the boost; people aren't still haven't decided on whether this bag will be the healing one though; I guess an MP Regen-only bag could maybe exist as well as Gaignun suggested).

d. Light Robe (could also maybe use the boost despite being usable, though it would have to become the Robe with the least MP most likely).

e. Life Song (is a weaker Song, but giving it MP Regen steps on Angel Song's toes, so...). 

f. Masamune (already fucking overpowered, so it doesn't need shit else).

g. Nurse (could maybe not be utterly obnoxious with MP Regen, especially with Paladin's pitiful MP, but it would have to lose Defending and probably heal slightly less).

h. Mad Science (is getting changed into something on Druid that will probably be overpowered since it has AoE 1, so no. Please).



a. Poison Bow (already seeing a nerf while Hawk's Eye fate seems unclear, but MP Poison on top of Poison & damage would be too much).

b. Hawk's Eye (already does way too much and it needs to lose regular Poison, so no go).

c. Wiznaibus (even with MP Poison on top of regular Poison, it would still be trash while now also stepping on Witch Hunt's space; if anything, Witch Hunt should probably get a chance to MP Poison on top of MP damage so it doesn't auto-lose to Move-MP UP, Absorb Used MP and this new MP Regen; Wiznaibus needs to become Dirty Dancing still [/self-promotion]).

d. Shuriken (this does sort of need a buff, but that can be easily attained by...).

e. Kagesougi (this losing Poison [and Don't Act] and costing more MP while sees slightly less MP usage and more of a chance to HP Poison; neither need MP Poison).

f. Kiyomori (I'm...ambivalent about adding MP Poison to this, mostly because most teams still can't/don't use it effectively while at the same time the AI is pretty dumb about Blind and Poison already screws over mages more; so...yeah. I don't think it really needs it ultimately, but I'd oppose it less than any of the above getting it).

g. Poison (the spell--desperately needs something to make it actually usable, especially since the AI will actively use it; there's just no rewards for doing so presently; would probably need to be increased to 100 JP).

h. Scorpion Tail (almost forgot about this; like Poison Bow, this does a lot of damage already on top of Poison; unlike Poison Bow, it's also actually already quite used, so no, it doesn't need MP Poison).

i. Bio (is apparently dying right out, which no one except me seems to care about. It also can do a crap ton of damage at almost instant speeds, so...no).

j. Zigolis Swamp (well, more the Poison Marsh tiles here than the entire map itself if we're being technical; I think this is already an unusable map, unfortunately, so it doesn't really matter, but if we're being thorough, then, yeah...it at least has to be counted here).



a. Dispel Magic (is already getting an AoE buff, but Refresh would undeniably be a positive effect; still Spell Absorb doesn't exactly see much use as it is...).

b. Water (basically linked to the above, except it does Water elemental damage; not like it could differ on the Refresh front one way or the other, though).

c. Leviathan (see above).

d. Spellbreaker (could potentially "use" the buff, especially since it's the only non-Faith-based option to dispel Regen currently that isn't just adding Poison. It is already, however, rather strong and way too cheap [MP-wise], so I'm not sure. It depends on what Thief's skill set and MP look like whenever FFMaster gets done with 1.39).

e. Refute (cancels too much, which is why it's getting broken up; the positive status canceling version should probably get Cancel: Refresh as well).

f. Kibaku Fuda (given this is suggested as a direct counter to Masamune's bullshit, it obviously cancels Regen; would it canceling Refresh also fit?).



a. Antidote (Item doesn't need to get any stronger, so this can likely forego curing MP Poison).

b. Esuna (you would think this would be a "yes", but between trying to buff Regen and White Magick actually being really strong already, this is a "no"; if White Magick users want to cure MP Poison, then they need to actually have Regen, boo hoo).

c. Stigma Magic (this, on the other hand, would bother me less if it cured MP Poison despite being both instant and in the same skill set as Chakra; I'm not whole-heartedly supporting it, but I do still think that Esuna and Stigma Magic need to differ more).

d. Heal (despite Basic Skill getting a moderate round of buffs again, I actually think it would be good for Heal to get rid of MP Poison).

e. Refute (as with Refresh, the broken-up version of this should probably cancel MP Poison on its negative status side).

f. Platina Helmet (I'm...ambivalent here, partly because Platina Helmet already blocks three negative statuses).

g. Whichever 1.39 Headband Blocks Poison (will probably get protected from MP Poison as well).

h. Diamond Armor (like Platina Helmet, I'm ambivalent here, except it's even worse since Diamond Armor already blocks four negative statuses).

i. 108 Gems (the only Accessory to block Poison, but like Diamond Armor, it already does too much and is well-used, so...no).



Yes, this could be longer, especially since there's other things that need to be addressed to talk about still, though those can be saved for later. I'll end on this, though: Provided they're implemented, something other than White Magic(k)'s Regen needs to cause Refresh/MP Regen as well, otherwise White Magic becomes even more powerful by virtue of having a monopoly.


Quote from: Dokurider on May 13, 2013, 05:04:29 am
I'm tempted to give into endorsing this change because of all the whining surrounding Poison's Death Persistence as of late, but then again, it's just that, whining.


That seems uncalled for, though it's possible I missed actual whining in the month I've been "gone".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on May 21, 2013, 03:06:18 pm
Iron Booters using MP-regen bags is fine with me.  Bags have no W-EV or stat bonuses, so there's a tradeoff.  I say we let the cards fall where they may.

That is, if the cards fall at all.  Judging by the lack of activity on these boards, I'm guessing FFMaster is busy with other things.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on May 21, 2013, 09:28:57 pm
(Yeah, I figure FFMaster is rather busy as well. He does seem to actually have a life and has basically been doing ARENA alone for the past year and a half.)

Well, actually, I'd be fine with Iron Boots users using an Always: Refresh bag (if one existed), given that would get around Iron Boots & Genji Armor blocking: Refresh anyway. I was merely saying that's a way to preemptively nip it in the bud if the needs actually arises or whatever provided two statuses actually make it in among the shitload of other changes already slated just for 1.39.

While we're talking about Poison & Regen as they related to Journey of the Five, I have to ask something else:


Given utter ambivalence of people over having Cursed Ring losing Sp +1 (especially if some people want fucking Quickening to still stay around), then perhaps "we" should make the Undead immune to Regen & Poison as in Jot5?


That would at least mitigate some of the power of Masamune has right now since Regen currently makes it trivial for Undead teams to heal on top of them being guaranteed to get back up every 400 CT.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on May 27, 2013, 02:32:19 pm
Another possible balance issue I noticed.

I realized that I still haven't used the "Black Magic" skillset so I made an all-wizards team (The Wizards Of Oz).  One of the things I immediately noticed is that the level 1 spells are far more favorable to use than the level 2 spells and the "Nether" spells.  Because they have a 20% chance of adding some effect it can be considered worthwhile to simply load up on those spells.

Also the "Water" series is underpowered compared to the other elements.  The other elements can be strengthened by Kaiser plate and the naturally fitting Black Robe.  But it's more difficult for a wizard to boost water, instead relying on 108 gems or equipping the Coral Sword.  Also compare the "Ice" series to the "Water" series.  For the same power level the Ice element is usually half the MP.  Water is not Reflectable but is that worth nearly double the MP? 

Since the "nether" spells take up more MP perhaps have those spells proc at a 10% higher rate(30%) and the level 2 spells proce at another 10% higher rate(40%).  A possible solution to the Water elemental situation would be to make water both not reflectable AND not evadable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on May 27, 2013, 03:04:29 pm
Each element is supposed to have its own unique perk. Fire has better AoE, Lightning better damage, Ice has reduced MP costs, Water is unreflectable. Wizard has Prismatic Rod to boost Water, and 108 Gems boosts everything, so you can just use that and you're set =P

Also, the status proc is meant to differentiate the tiers. Tier 1 is the procs, Nether Tier is UnFury damage instead of Faith, Tier 2 is for max damage. Giving the other tiers the procs as well would then kinda obviate Tier 1 IMO, cause the Nether spells would then proc at a better rate, but have the same CT, as well as let the caster run 40/40 -> better protected against enemy magic. And then the Nether spells would probably be the 'best.' And at 40% proc for Tier 2, that means if they aren't dead, they get crippled (mainly with Ice's Slow proc). Heck, since Tier 2 has the best damage, just run someone with ele boosting and short charge and the tier 2 spells to wreak havoc.

There are valid reasons to use any element, at any tier. I think Black Magic is quite fine.

Though hmm, unevadable Water does sound interesting.... It doesn't need that buff though. It would tread on Summon Magic if Water became unevadable as well. Black Magic is fine.

Anyone else's thoughts?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on May 27, 2013, 03:23:57 pm
Yes I did forget about Prismatic Rod.  I always forget about Prismatic Rod.  But the water spells still seem weak for the MP cost. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on May 27, 2013, 03:50:31 pm
I dunno, the MP cost seems fair (remember, Ice is meant to cost very little MP), and ignoring Reflect is rather important. A fairly common (at least for a while) option was to give a 70 Faith unit Reflect and more or less dodge most magic, especially since Summon doesn't usually produce life-threatening numbers. Water 2 lets you really punish that, and Water's proc can dispel the Reflect, letting other mages connect with their spells as well! Also lets you run Water absorb+Reflect, which I thought was totally awesome when I saw that interaction (it's still pretty cool >_>).

Water seems pretty good, haha.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on May 28, 2013, 04:36:46 am
(I''m still not back in ARENA [yet?], but since not much has changed....)

Yeah, Black Magic is mostly fine outside of Poison sucking foot-long cock and badly at that despite the AI's willingness to use it. The Water spells could maybe use a slight MP decrease and Death could maybe use...something, but other than that, they're fine. I mean, Flare could maybe use something to, but really it's just that Holy needs to be "nerfed" between it being too fast, too powerful and too cost-efficient even before the issue of the current Golden Hairpin being overpowered.

If anything, then a bunch of people might argue that the Level 1 series of spells causing statuses is what makes them less viable. This is because there's a very real chance of you screwing up your own team even (or perhaps especially) if you absorb the element in question.


*looks at how he had to change the Fairy Tale Fairness team from having Faith Rods since Water can get rid of Faith or how the various Fire-based teams have to block Oil unless they want to accidentally destroy themselves*


Regardless, Black Magic is already getting an implicit boost whenever/if-ever 1.39 comes out between Scholar's Wizard+ stats buying it and the Bio series of spells, which stepped on Water's role since Lore currently ignores Reflect and were/are faster, also dying.

So outside of making Poison actually worth using and maybe reducing the MP costs of some spells like Flare, current Black Magic is fine and actually usable and it's only going to get better.

Currently, of the four elements that Wizard has (ignoring Death being Dark), I still think that Ice is the most screwed actually. Ice Absorb has always been one of the lesser, if the least, used elements through ARENA and nowadays there's basically no reason to use Ice Absorb unless you're using a Glacier Gun and even that's usually not team Ice-Absorb. It's not exactly like anyone's really using the elemental Rods either, so Prismatic Rod boosting Water alongside four other elements is actually pretty damn good.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on May 28, 2013, 05:11:30 am
Funny you should mention the Ice spells. I actually have found that because of their low MP costs, you don't have to use up an head/armor slot for an MP bonus. Just slap on Move MP Up for unlimited Ice spells.

As for removing the Speed Bonus from Cursed Ring, I support it. Not only does the +Speed hurt casters, but it plays too well into obnoxious immortal speed builds.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on May 29, 2013, 04:26:01 pm
A couple of things that came to mind:

As much as I love Thief Hat, I think it should lose Half: Wind. As is, Thief Hat makes Quake and Tornado inconsequential, and when coupled with Black Costume, shuts off Ninjitsu. Losing Half: Wind allows Tornado and Fuuton to be relevant again against Thief Hat users.

Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, we should give Secret Clothes a small buff. It pales in comparison to Thief Hat, since it only gives the +1 Speed, and it has tougher competition (the ele absorb clothes). I was thinking of either moving the Half: Wind from Thief Hat to Secret Clothes, or give Secret Clothes immunity to one or two status effects. I'm thinking Immune: Blind and/or Don't Move.

Thoughts? I realize that status immunity is meant to be armor's thing, but I think it's ok to have it on one piece of clothing.

Also, Ice is awesome for the low MP cost as Doku mentioned, and because it's not used much for element absorb teams, that means people aren't running Santa Outfit -> Ice is not being absorbed -> Ice spells are actually effective.
I'm not sure if 'Ice is one of the least used elements' is correct, either. That probably goes to Water since it didn't have much support until very recently, and there wasn't much differentiation between the elements in Black Magic. Also Ice Brand + Grand Cross is quite strong, as seen in Aero's Snow Pirates.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on May 29, 2013, 09:38:24 pm
Tornado is still very much a relevant spell because of it's sheer speed and AoE. There's also the dangers of Air Knife (yeah everyone's must have forgotten about it ever since Air Krieg was banned from recording) and Thief Hat's the only item that stops it from utter domination. That being said, once Air Knife and Tornado is reined back in, Wind will go back to being a mediocre elemental, so I suppose you do have a point. I do however agree that Secret Clothes could use a buff and perhaps moving Half: Wind to it would be okay. Not Immune: Blind because it's one of a few ways to thwart most high speed units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on May 29, 2013, 11:19:59 pm
(Well, good to know that at least one [more] person agrees that Cursed Ring should lose its +1 Speed.

Too bad that won't mean much of anything if Quickening stays around like half of the people want[ed] it to for some unfathomable reason. So noted though.)


I was just reminded--by looking at the thread title as I keep switching between windows actually, haha--that I'm still not really sure how people feel about Balance the spell when it comes to, well, mages actually using it. I'm thinking about this between the Jot5 talk and the fact that, right now, even with proposed changes to Time Mage, Time Mage is probably still not going to be able to make use of the current Balance.

Then again, I'd argue that the current Balance in and of itself is the problem, but I've never liked Shock-esque abilities, so I'm admittedly biased....


Quote from: CT5Holy on May 29, 2013, 04:26:01 pm
A couple of things that came to mind:

As much as I love Thief Hat, I think it should lose Half: Wind. As is, Thief Hat makes Quake and Tornado inconsequential, and when coupled with Black Costume, shuts off Ninjitsu. Losing Half: Wind allows Tornado and Fuuton to be relevant again against Thief Hat users.


I suppose I agree with the overall sentiment, but as someone who tends to--tended?--play mages, Quake & Tornado are far from inconsequential. If they're anything, then they're too fast at 2 CT and way too powerful (read: furious) for the speed and AoE that they have. Part of that will be eased by Scholar's Wizard+ stats dying though. Also, IIRC, I think "everyone" (who responded...which was probably only a couple of people) agreed that Quake & Tornado should go back to being CT 3, so there's that too.

But, yeah, that's pretty much another "mage-only" problem like the "Poison after death" thing unless you happen to have gotten hit by Oil or Faith beforehand. It's always bothered me that Thief Hat has halved so much, especially of the lesser used/available elements, if only because it tends to be used by classes already low on Faith and it gives +1.

I guess it potentially screws over Geomancy/Elemental too, but since Geomancers have largely been Draw Out bots and are still increasingly becoming so because of Tactician's Blade and Masamune... yeah. Also, outside of the utterly hax-y Water Ball, the both best and the most common Elemental abilities arguably aren't halved by Thief Hat's anyway.

Of course, there's a question of which element it "should" lose if it does lose one though. I guess Wind element is the most "sensible" given the Ninjutsu point, Dokurider pointing out how Heaven's Cloud kinda sucks and, if we're talking about Faith, Silf; like I said, Tornado is fine--I actually think Silf is fine too, but Silf isn't nuking any as it is like Tornado does/can, so.... It would also make it less redundant than removing Earth given there are a couple of things that still see relatively little use that entirely block both Wind & Water. This even if removing Halve: Earth would buff Earth Clothes and maybe buff the other things Block/Null: Earth, including Float.

...Of course, you could also remove Halve: Water instead, which would still work for Ninjutsu, give Leviathan an edge over Salamander, give the Water series another edge over other Black Magic (even if the current Defense Ring is kept) and help Coral Sword.

Again, I'm biased though.


Quote from: CT5Holy on May 29, 2013, 04:26:01 pmAlternatively, or perhaps additionally, we should give Secret Clothes a small buff. It pales in comparison to Thief Hat, since it only gives the +1 Speed, and it has tougher competition (the ele absorb clothes). I was thinking of either moving the Half: Wind from Thief Hat to Secret Clothes, or give Secret Clothes immunity to one or two status effects. I'm thinking Immune: Blind and/or Don't Move.

Thoughts? I realize that status immunity is meant to be armor's thing, but I think it's ok to have it on one piece of clothing.


I kind of agree that Secret Clothes could use a buff and about the status immunity thing on a piece of clothing. I'm rather unsure as to what that buff or those statuses "should" be though and I'm also unsure as to how that work-around to the very limited Item Attribute space turned out. So right now I'm not going to say anything else on this.


Quote from: CT5Holy on May 29, 2013, 04:26:01 pm
Also, Ice is awesome for the low MP cost as Doku mentioned, and because it's not used much for element absorb teams, that means people aren't running Santa Outfit -> Ice is not being absorbed -> Ice spells are actually effective.

I'm not sure if 'Ice is one of the least used elements' is correct, either. That probably goes to Water since it didn't have much support until very recently, and there wasn't much differentiation between the elements in Black Magic. Also Ice Brand + Grand Cross is quite strong, as seen in Aero's Snow Pirates.


Well, it's not like Ice spells suck or anything now that they actually differ from the other spells, it's just that MP cost is their only main difference. Other people have complained it's still rather "generic" compared to "I need more power!" Bolt, the larger AoE of Fire with its haxy Oil or even Water getting around Reflect and possibly canceling positive status (read: Masamune). I personally don't see much of a problem since I had an Ice absorb team, but I can see how a chance of adding "only" Slow rather than Oil or Don't Act can seem unappealing. Similarly, the low MP cost doesn't mean much when spellguns currently (still) do what Wizards do better for free and nuke Wizards in the mean time, especially since Wizards are already so squishy.

"Ironically", having the least backfire-capable status and lowest MP cost of all series would make you think that (in a vacuum), Ice-absorb would show up a lot more. But no....

Also, I meant Ice is probably one of the least used of the elements that could actually be effectively absorbed through overall ARENA history. As you already know, until very recently, Water absorption couldn't be done effectively at all, which is why I bitched to FFMaster about it for quite a while until it happened. I mean, outside of/before AeroGP's recent-ish team, there are only like...two other notable Ice absorb teams that come to mind to me before I went on hiatus for a bit. I mean, I'm sure that there have been more, but I can't remember anyone's besides my own and--this says a lot--PX's ancient Ice absorb team that actually did quite well.

Still, I wasn't very clear about that and it's not like you're psychic (or, at least, telepathic, right? ...Right?), so as usual being imprecise is my fault.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on May 30, 2013, 02:18:29 am
To be fair, Snow Pirates is not "recent-ish." It's just the logical conclusion of "Always Windy in Ivalice."

The loss of wind-absorb is telling of my opinion on Tornado losing CT 2.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on May 30, 2013, 05:43:43 am
Quote from: The Damned on May 29, 2013, 11:19:59 pm
I'm still not really sure how people feel about Balance the spell when it comes to, well, mages actually using it.


I thought Balance is going to Oracle.  Would anyone mind if I maintain a list of proposed changes in a separate thread so we're all on the same page?

Quote from: The Damned on May 29, 2013, 11:19:59 pm
IIRC, I think "everyone" (who responded...which was probably only a couple of people) agreed that Quake & Tornado should go back to being CT 3, so there's that too.


I didn't respond, but I am fine with Quake and Tornado being 2 CT.  It gives Tornado and Quake something over Black and Summon Magicks.  Their speed is compensated by their high MP cost.  They are also countered by the current Thief Hat.

Quote from: The Damned on May 29, 2013, 11:19:59 pm
I kind of agree that Secret Clothes could use a buff and about the status immunity thing on a piece of clothing. I'm rather unsure as to what that buff or those statuses "should" be though and I'm also unsure as to how that work-around to the very limited Item Attribute space turned out. So right now I'm not going to say anything else on this.


Currently, it is going to receive +10 HP (for a total of 70). This puts it in the same ballpark as Power Sleeve and Wizard Outfit. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on May 30, 2013, 08:31:57 am
(I'm actually the only person who proposed the Oracle thing and that was after the last time that FFMaster replied on the forums months ago, so I'm not even sure he saw it.

Regardless, no one said anything about one way or the other, so I thought it was ignored like most things I saw, for better or for worse.

*still waiting on Mediator stuff technically*)

Well, there's already the 139 changes (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9446.0) for such a list. That got...cluttered, however in part due to myself, so I don't mind and I don't think anyone else would if you want to start a separate, Gaignun-only thread for it or whatever.

As for Secret Clothes, I'm honestly not sure that's enough, but like I said, I'm ambivalent ultimately in this case, at least presently.

As for Tornado & Quake, even without 2 CT, they'd still have their elements over Black Magick since that doesn't have Wind or Earth at all and they'd still have the ability to be absorbed over Summon Magick, whose ignoring of allies a double-edged sword in ARENA. Still, I'll admit that without the Wizard+ stats of Scholar, maybe even with 2 CT they'll be less "nuke" happy. Then again, it's not like Wizard won't exist still while Druid does and while expensive, it's not like 25 MP is all that prohibitive a cost on all but the most glass cannon-like of mage set-ups.

Shrug.


Quote from: AeroGP on May 30, 2013, 02:18:29 am
To be fair, Snow Pirates is not "recent-ish." It's just the logical conclusion of "Always Windy in Ivalice."


I wasn't around for that team then. So noted.


Quote from: AeroGP on May 30, 2013, 02:18:29 am
The loss of wind-absorb is telling of my opinion on Tornado losing CT 2.


Also noted.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on May 30, 2013, 12:13:17 pm
I don't know if the 1.39 changes thread is "cluttered".  But if you think about how if all the changes discussed and/or balance issues brought up since then were in that thread then that thread would probably be 10 pages.  I don't know if it's because we're REALLY REALLY divided or if we all are just throwing ideas out there and seeing what sticks.

You'd think that the changes between 1.38D and 1.39 would be the most controversial update ever. ;)  But I think it's really because 1.38 is mostly balanced and we're arguing over the small things because the big things are really obvious or becoming increasingly so.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on May 30, 2013, 06:41:08 pm
The thing about Quake is that I'm actually perfectly fine with it's CT and AoE (then again maybe it's too good versus Titan) thanks to being hard countered by Float and other Earth items keeps it balanced. But Tornado has no such problems, and that's a legitimate complaint.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on May 31, 2013, 08:14:34 am
I posted the summary.  I probably forgot some changes.  I added a few of my own on the fly:

Dual Cutters: 8 WP.  With extra attack, its average WP is 12.  This makes it the most powerful two-swordable weapon for ninja by 1 WP.

Stone Gun: -1 Range, -1 SP.  This is done to decrease Stone Gun's DPS, which currently dwarfs that of Longbows and Crossbows.  I removed "Init: Petrify" in compensation.  Maybe that's too good of a compensation.

Defense Armlet:  Added Immune: Poison, Blind in addition to Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act.  This makes it the melee-class equivalent of Defense Ring (which largely benefits mages).

Misogi: A new, economical, self-targeting Ninjutsu skill that cleanses benign status ailments.  Obviously, being self-targeting, it cannot cleanse serious ailments such as Petrify or Frog.

Summoner:  Granted a bonus ~20 base MP.  Frankly speaking, the Summoner class sucks due to its abysmally low HP.  By buffing its base MP to the 130~140 range, players may entirely forgo MP-boosting armour for HP-boosting armour to cover this glaring weakness.  This buff also promotes the use of Summoners for Summon Magick (as opposed to slapping Summon Magick on a mage class that doesn't suck), as Summon Magick is the most MP-intensive skill set in the game.

Titan: Made it ignore M-EV.  With their base MP boost, Summoners will be able to comfortably equip Earth Clothes for some serious Titan fury.  Here's a rough build idea using the new numbers:

Female Summoner
70 Faith, Wizard Staff, Black Hood, Earth Clothes
HP 296
MP ~190
MA 13 (effectively 16 with Earth Clothes)

Titan damage
126~176 (with Short Charge)
165~231 (with Magic Attack UP)
220~308 (with Magic Attack UP, Holy Miter, and Magic Gauntlet)

That ought to get people to consider using Vanish Small Mantles, Feather Boots, and Float!

Blind/Silence/Berserk:  Gave each a CT of 48.  The AI does not heal Blind or Silence on its own, so these ailments need a finite duration.  Berserk is given a finite CT to stem Insult shenanigans.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pm
First and foremost thanks a whole lot for doing this Gaignun!  You don't post often but you always seem to post something hugely significant!

Quote from: Gaignun on May 31, 2013, 07:55:31 am
The following is a (mostly) complete list of changes proposed for FFT Arena 1.39.  This list is for the purpose of display only.  Nothing on this list is final.

Please keep discussion of these and any additional changes confined to the discussion thread (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.0).

I will attempt to transfer ideas from the discussion thread to this thread once per week.

Buffs are highlighted in green.
Nerfs are highlighted in maroon.
Neutral changes are highlighted in blue.


2-Hand and 2-Sword properties are not changed unless otherwise stated.

Knives
Dual Cutters: 8 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, 50% Extra Attack
Air Knife: 12 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Wind Elemental

Ninjatou
Hidden Knife: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Transparent, (+1 SP removed)
Short Edge: 9 WP, 5 W-EV, 50% Add: Oil
Ninja Edge: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Add: Don't Move
Spell Edge: 11 WP, 5 W-EV, 100% Cast: Spell Absorb
Sasuke Knife: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, Fire Elemental, Strengthen Earth, 2-Swordable (+1 SP removed)
Naruto Koga Knife: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, Earth Elemental, Strengthen Fire, 2-Swordable
Orochimaru Fang: 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Blind, 2-Swordable

Swords
Phoenix Blade: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, Add Immune: Critical
Parry Edge: 9 WP, 25 W-EV

Knight Swords
Defender: 16 WP, 40 W-EV, Immune: Don't Act
Save the Queen: 15 WP, 10 W-EV, Always: Protect
Ragnarok: 15 WP, 10 W-EV, Always: Shell

Axes
Battle Axe: 9 WP, 25 W-EV, 33% Decapitate (Damage: 50% of max HP)
Giant Axe: 10 WP, 25 W-EV, Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

Staves
White Staff: 7 WP, 10 W-EV, Holy Elemental, 50% Cast: Dia
Healing Eldritch Staff: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Heals on hit, Strengthen: Dark
Rainbow Staff: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Immune: Oil
Gold Staff: 8 WP, 20 W-EV, 100% Cancel: Positive Statii

Guns
Blaze Gun: 14 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, Cast: Nether Fire
Glacier Gun: 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, Cast: Nether Ice
Blast Gun: 11 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, Cast: Nether Bolt
Stone Gun: 12 WP, 0 W-EV,  5 Range, -1 SP (Init: Petrify removed)

Crossbows
Silencer: 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Range, 50% Add: Silence

Longbows
Long Bow: 14 WP, 10 W-EV, 6 Range, +1 Move

Spears
Spear: 12 WP, 5 W-EV, +1 SP, Ice Element, 50% Cast: Ice Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Ice Element)
Mythril Spear: 12 WP, 5 W-EV, +1 SP, Fire Element, 50% Cast: Fire Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Fire Element)
Spear: 12 WP, 5 W-EV, +1 SP, Lightning Element, 50% Cast: Thunder Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Lightning Element)
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 SP, 50% Cast: Holy Bracelet (Damage: MA*8, Holy Element)

Harps
Bloody Strings: 10 WP, 5 W-EV, 3 Range, Absorbs HP

Helmets
Cross Helmet: 120 HP, 50 MP
Grand Helmet: 150 HP

Armour
Maximilian: 160 HP

Hats
Twist Headband: 70 HP, +2 PA
Holy Miter: 70 HP, +2 MA
Black Hood: 110 HP, 30 MP
Golden Hairpin: 70 HP, 50 MP, Strengthen: Holy, Dark (+1 MA removed)

Headbands
Focus Band: 60 HP, 60 MP, Immune: Undead, Charm, Innocent, Faith
Choice Band: 40 HP, 40 MP, Immune: Dead, Frog, Petrify, Berserk, Sleep, Death Sentence
Chakra Band: 20 HP, 20 MP, Immune: Poison, Silence, Blind, Slow, Stop, Don't Act, Don't Move, Oil

Clothing
Brigandine: 120 HP, 20 MP
Santa Outfit: 100 HP, 10 MP, Absorb: Ice, Wind
Black Costume: 100 HP, 10 MP, Absorb: Fire, Dark
Rubber Costume: 100 HP, 10 MP Absorb: Lightning, Water
Earth Clothes: 90 HP, 20 MP, Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth
Secret Clothes: 70 HP, +1 SP

Robes
Silk Robe: 110 HP, 50 MP

Crystal Shield: 20 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Immune: Oil

Power Wrist: 30 P-EV, +1 PA
Genji Gauntlet: 30 M-EV, +1 MA
Sprint Shoes: +1 SP, Immune: Slow
Jade Armlet: Absorb: Water, Immune: Slow, Stop, Petrify
Defense Ring: Null: Ice, Immune: Dead, Death Sentence, Silence, Berserk, Sleep
Defense Armlet: Null: Fire, Immune: Poison, Blind, Don't Move, Don't Act
Cursed Ring: +1 PA, +1 MA, Weak: Fire, Null: Holy, Absorb: Dark, Immune: Crystal, Always: Undead (+1 SP removed)

Skills not listed are not changed.

Squire
Heal: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 2 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Cancel: Stop, Blind, Silence, Poison, Charm, Oil, 150 JP
Yell: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 8 MP, 100% Add: Haste, 100 JP
Wish: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Heal_(5%), Hit_(PA+70)%, Cancel: Dead, 200 JP
Ultima: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 3 Vert, 4 CT, 16 MP, Dmg_(MA*9), 300 JP
Defend: Given to Chemist
Equip Clothes: Given to Monk

Chemist
Auto Potion: Decrease HP healed from 80 to 70
Maintenance: Change to a movement ability, 0 JP
Defend: Received from Squire

Paladin
Consecration: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(SP+70), Undead targets only, Add: Dead, 250 JP
Reraise: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 1 CT, 16 MP, 100% Add: Reraise, 100 JP
Equip Armor: 350 JP
Move -1: Given to Mediator

Archer
Leg Aim: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(SP+55), Add: Don't Move, 100 JP
Seal Evil: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(SP+60), Undead targets only, Add: Petrify, 150 JP
Hawk's Eye: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_(SP*WP), 100% Add: Poison, Oil, 200 JP
Execute: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Dmg_(40)%, Hit_F(MA+255), Critical targets only, 150 JP

Monk
Equip Clothes: Received from Squire

Priest
Cure: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 0 CT, 10 MP, Heal_F(MA*7), 100 JP
Cure 3: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 5 CT, 16 MP, Heal_F(MA*15), 150 JP
Cure 4: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 3 CT, 16 MP, Heal_F(MA*16), 200 JP
Regen: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 1 CT, 8 MP, Hit_F(MA+100), Add: Regen, 50 JP
Protect: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Hit_F(MA+80), Add: Protect, 50 JP
Shell: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Hit_F(MA+80), Add: Shell, 50 JP
Wall: 4 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 35 MP, 100% Add: Protect, Shell, 200 JP

Wizard
Frog: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 18 MP, Hit_F(MA+65), Add: Frog, 150 JP
Death: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 6 CT, 24 MP, Dmg_(100)%, Hit_F(MA+50), Add: Dead, 150 JP
Flare: 6 Range, 0 AoE, 7 CT, 40 MP, Dmg_F(MA*18), Unevadable

Time Mage
Haste: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+70), Add: Haste, 100 JP
Haste 2: Hit_F(MA+100), 250 JP
Slow: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+70), Add: Slow, 100 JP
Slow 2: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 4 CT, 22 MP, Hit_F(MA+90), Add: Slow, 300 JP
Sinkhole: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 2 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_(25)%, Hit_F(MA+75), Cancel: Charging, Performing, 200 JP
Comet: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 1 CT, 8 MP, Dmg_(100),100 JP
Balance: Given to Oracle
Demi: 5 Range, 2 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_(33)%, Hit_F(MA+85), Dark element, 200 JP
Critical Quick: 200 JP
Half of MP: Received from Summoner

Summoner
Half of MP: Given to Time Mage
Titan: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 5 CT, 35 MP, Dmg_F(MA*10), Earth element, Ignores M-EV, 250 JP
Bahamut: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 6 CT, 40 MP, Dmg_F(MA*12), 300 JP

Thief
Bad Tough Luck: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, 33% Add: Death Sentence, Blind, Silence, Stop, Don't Move, Don't Act
Heretic: Remove from the game
Quickening: Remove from the game

Mediator
Persuade: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(MA+45), Add: Stop, 300 JP
Solution: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Hit_(MA+60), Add: Innocent
Move -1: Received from Paladin

Oracle
Beguile: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 16 MP, Hit_F(MA+45), Add: Charm, 100 JP
Dispel Magic: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 2 CT, 20 MP, Hit_F(MA+80), Cancel: Float, Reraise, Regen, Protect, Shell, Haste, Faith, Innocent, Reflect, 200 JP
Paralyze: 5 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Hit_F(MA+60), Add: Don't Act, 150 JP
Balance: Received from Time Mage

Geomancer
Counter Flood: 300 JP

Lancer
Ignore Height: 150 JP

Samurai
Asura: No longer ignores allies
Bizen Boat: M-EV now applies

Ninja
Tsumazuku: Remove from the game
Kagesougi: Wpn Range, 0 AoE, Wpn Vert, 0 CT, 8 MP, Dmg_B(PA*WP), 100% Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move (Add: Don't Act removed)
Meiton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 11 MP, Dmg_UF(PA*9), Dark Element, M-EVable, Reflectable, Not counterable
Fuuton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 16 MP Dmg_UF(PA*10), Wind Element, M-EVable, Reflectable, Counterable
Suiton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_UF(PA*8), Water Element, Unevadable, Unreflectable, Counterable
Kibaku Fuda: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 0 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_B(SP*WP), Cancel: Haste, Regen, M-EVable, Unreflectable, Counterable, 300 JP
Mushin: Self-targeting, 0 CT, 5 MP, Add: Innocent, 50 JP
Misogi: Self-targeting, 0 CT, 5 MP, Cancel: Poison, Blind, Silence, Slow, Don't Move, Oil, Faith, 50 JP
Speed +1: Movement ability, +1 SP, 400 JP

Scholar/Druid
FFMaster's changes are pending.
Tornado: 5 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 30 MP, Dmg_F(MA*9), Wind Element, 250 JP
Quake: 5 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 30 MP, Dmg_F(MA*9), Earth Element, 250 JP

Bard
Last Song: 0 Range, 255 AoE, 255 Vert, 10 CT, 5 MP, Hit_(40)%, Add: Quick, 200 JP
Brave UP: 100 JP

Dancer
Last Dance: 0 Range, 255 AoE, 255 Vert, 10 CT, 5 MP, Hit_(40)%, 00 CT, 200 JP
Brave UP: 100 JP

Time Mage
(M) 113 HP, 77 MP, 10 SP, 4 PA, 7 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
(F) 106 HP, 82 MP, 10 SP, 3 PA, 9 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV

Summoner
(M) 103 HP, ~130 MP, 8 SP, 3 PA, 9 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
(F) 96 HP, ~140 MP, 8 SP, 2 PA, 11 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV

Thief
(M) 144 HP, 24 MP, 10 SP, 9 PA, 3 MA, 4 Move, 4 Jump, 20 C-EV
(F) 135 HP, 25 MP, 10 SP, 7 PA, 4 MA, 4 Move, 4 Jump, 20 C-EV

Blind: Increase CT from 0 to 48
Silence: Increase CT from 0 to 48
Berserk: Increase CT from 0 to 48


Wasn't slasher going to be Dual Weildable?  As it stands straight 12 WP makes it inferior to the other axes, even with Battle Axe getting a nerf to Decapitation proc.

I'm sad that Sasuke Knife will be losing its +1speed.  Ninja Edge and Spell Edge are getting the buffs it looks like they were supposed to have.

Yay Longbow might get +1 Move.  I have nothing to say about spears because the only one I ever use is Javalin


No changes to Staves due to mass divisions on what to actually do with them.   :? 


I think Golden Hairpin should go down 10 HP-20 HP more than what's in here, but I certainly won't push it.

Headbands-  The HP being given seems a bit low considering that Monks are actually quite squishy. 


Nothing really to add except that I'm not sorry to see the +1 speed to Cursed Ring gone.  After Doku showed how strong auto-revival is during the single class tournament the use has become pretty pervasive.  It's reaching it's logical conclusion now with 15 speed units being created with+Move HP+Regen

I like the Spring Shoes Immune to slow.  It's very thematic and flavorful.  I also like the boosts to Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet.  Those changes+Nurse/Abandon might make them usable.  Although I would have made them at 40 evasion because they needed a MAJOR BOOST but I won't argue the point


With Maintenance moved to MOVEMENT I think it should have a JP cost because now it's much more usable.

I know I said it in a rant but I really do think Consecrate and Seal Evil should hit at 100% or nearly that much.  Even with the change to Cursed Ring.  Being undead really needs to be punished.

Was the range on the cure series of spells always 5?  I never noticed.

I'm most saddened that Beguile isn't getting it's proc rate increased.  I really think it's necessary even with the other buffs.  Charm isn't the devastating status it used to be.

I like the buffs Time Mage and Summoner are getting getting to their skills.

Quickening is dead.  Thanks to the tireless campaigning of an increasing number of people it became apparent that it needed to die as a skill.  It really was a community effort because there were so many folks (myself included) who didn't believe it needed to die at first.

Counter Flood increased to 300?!?

I don't know if it was missed or forgotten but no changes to Refute???  Not even to eliminate cancelling performing?

Interesting changes to Last Dance.  I'm going to have to build a Last Dance team.

Asura now ignores allies, but what about Heaven's Cloud? 


EDIT: Fixed Formatting because that post looked like crap.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on May 31, 2013, 09:06:15 pm
If (and it needs to be done absolutely) Berserk loses it's infinite duration, then Salty Rage and Genji Helmet needs to become Always: Berserk with a possible Blind Immunity.

Would it be a problem to change Death's Formula to a Nether Formula? That way, it can be used to bust up tanks.

Also let's not forget about the monk overall. They are very good and needed. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9272.0)

In addition to Balance being changed to Yin Yang Magic, it should also gain additional +CT.

FFM was talking about creating the -1 Speed attribute some time ago. If it can be done, then this would be a pretty decent drawback for Stone Gun.

Cursed Ring should also lose Null: Holy, because forcing Holy weapon users to pack Consecrate is a waste. While this isn't too problematic for Excalibur and Silver Bow, Holy Spear has to resort to Jump or their Secondaries to attack Cursed Units.

Speaking of Holy Spear, that still needs a better (read: properly working) proc. We could just give it Cyclops as a proc.

Sucks we still don't have a new shield idea that everyone agrees on. All I know is that Crystal Shield blows.

Lancers need Robes back. Period.

I think the Ultimus Bow (and the Mythril Bow too) could use a single WP point drop so that not only are the other bows a little more viable, but so can the crossbows.

In any case, here's to hoping that Koga and Sasuke Knife see use come the next version.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on May 31, 2013, 11:21:24 pm
Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmWasn't slasher going to be Dual Weildable?  As it stands straight 12 WP makes it inferior to the other axes, even with Battle Axe getting a nerf to Decapitation proc.


Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pm
I don't know if it was missed or forgotten but no changes to Refute???  Not even to eliminate cancelling performing?


Quote from: Dokurider on May 31, 2013, 09:06:15 pm
Also let's not forget about the monk overall. They are very good and needed. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9272.0)


Yeah.  Some changes were inevitably missed.  I'll add them later.

Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmI think Golden Hairpin should go down 10 HP-20 HP more than what's in here, but I certainly won't push it.


Other hats are getting buffed, so Golden Hairpin is becoming less attractive by comparison.

Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmHeadbands-  The HP being given seems a bit low considering that Monks are actually quite squishy.


Indeed.  I believe I copied these changes from one of Raven's posts months ago.  Personally, I have nothing to add about them.

Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmI like the Spring Shoes Immune to slow.  It's very thematic and flavorful.


I think so, too.  However, I believe we do not have the attribute space for it at present.  I added it anyway in case we decide to merge or eliminate attributes in the near future.

Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmI also like the boosts to Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet.


Raven actually proposed a redesign for Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet, but I was uncertain of its acceptance, so I left it out.

Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmCounter Flood increased to 300?!?


This is one of my personal changes.  Counter Flood is actually really good: it procs off of just about everything and at any range, deals AoE damage at 100% accuracy, and has the chance of inflicting status ailments.  It is at least as good as Auto Potion and Damage Split, which also cost 300 JP.

Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmWith Maintenance moved to MOVEMENT I think it should have a JP cost because now it's much more usable.


Maintenance will be the only movement ability that does absolutely nothing against all but two skill types (Breaks and Steal Accessory).   It'll be like Jump +1: it's only equipped when no other movement ability can be afforded.  That said, a low (50~100) JP cost might not be too bad.

Quote from: reinoe on May 31, 2013, 02:57:21 pmAsura now ignores allies, but what about Heaven's Cloud?


Discussion about Heaven's Cloud was pretty recent, right?  Did we come to an agreement about it?

Quote from: Dokurider on May 31, 2013, 09:06:15 pmIf (and it needs to be done absolutely) Berserk loses it's infinite duration, then Salty Rage and Genji Helmet needs to become Always: Berserk with a possible Blind Immunity.


That's a logical conclusion.  I will update the list accordingly.

Quote from: Dokurider on May 31, 2013, 09:06:15 pmWould it be a problem to change Death's Formula to a Nether Formula? That way, it can be used to bust up tanks.


I can't say, myself.  One 1.39 combination that is on my mind is a Paladin with a protect/shell knightsword and a shell/protect perfume for total defense.  This combination is not entirely broken because the Paladin will have very little P-EV and no M-EV.  In this case, Death might serve a purpose.  Assuming the Paladin has 70 Brave for melee damage, switching Death to a nether formula would preclude this application.  It's easier to have 70 Brave than 40 Faith, after all.

Then again, 40-40 units are obnoxious, so I'm on the fence.

Quote from: Dokurider on May 31, 2013, 09:06:15 pmSucks we still don't have a new shield idea that everyone agrees on. All I know is that Crystal Shield blows.


I am partial to simply handing over Crystal Shield's "Immune: Oil" to Escutcheon II, then killing off Crystal Shield altogether.

Quote from: Dokurider on May 31, 2013, 09:06:15 pmLancers need Robes back. Period.


I agree!

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 01, 2013, 12:28:05 am
QuoteDiscussion about Heaven's Cloud was pretty recent, right?  Did we come to an agreement about it?

Unfortunately it hasn't even been discussed at all.

QuoteI can't say, myself.  One 1.39 combination that is on my mind is a Paladin with a protect/shell knightsword and a shell/protect perfume for total defense.  This combination is not entirely broken because the Paladin will have very little P-EV and no M-EV.  In this case, Death might serve a purpose.  Assuming the Paladin has 70 Brave for melee damage, switching Death to a nether formula would preclude this application.  It's easier to have 70 Brave than 40 Faith, after all.

Then again, 40-40 units are obnoxious, so I'm on the fence.

Keeping it as a Faith Formula would do little to remedy that anyways aside from Pilgrimage. Those 40-40 unit are precisely the kind of units that Death would excel in killing if turned into a Nether Spell in the first place. 70 Brave units are usually damage dealers and are optimized for offense and thus would be easy pickings for other kinds of strategies in the first place, as opposed to 40-40 units that are optimized for turtling and a lot harder to kill in the first place.

QuoteSilence: Increase CT from 0 to 48

This is also a good change as it relaxes Mages' need to be Silence proof, but at the cost of weakening an already weak status. I propose that Silence persist on death, so while a Silenced unit isn't worthless forever, they still have to wait the full 48 CT to be worthwhile again.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 02, 2013, 01:48:55 am
Thinking about ways to get the A.I. to proactively use Protect/Shell.  I came up with an idea that's probably overboard but I figured I'd post it anyway for the sake of discussion.  What if Wall also triggered Defend?  The problem of course is that it might make turtling teams too powerful.  Also the A.I. loves babying itself so another problem might be that it'll spam wall until it runs ouf of MP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 02, 2013, 03:04:06 am
I noticed the AI tends to use both if they're already targeted with something, whether or not they'd survive even if they had it.


A few of my teams did use it near the start(in tests, might have one or two examples on a video from Barren and such here somewhere), but I think that was just to use a turn doing something when they could be reached already, and the units didn't have other abilities that they could use on that turn.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 02, 2013, 05:13:17 am
Quote from: Dokurider on June 01, 2013, 12:28:05 am
Keeping it as a Faith Formula would do little to remedy that anyways aside from Pilgrimage. Those 40-40 unit are precisely the kind of units that Death would excel in killing if turned into a Nether Spell in the first place. 70 Brave units are usually damage dealers and are optimized for offense and thus would be easy pickings for other kinds of strategies in the first place, as opposed to 40-40 units that are optimized for turtling and a lot harder to kill in the first place.


Point taken.

Quote from: Dokurider on June 01, 2013, 12:28:05 am
This is also a good change as it relaxes Mages' need to be Silence proof, but at the cost of weakening an already weak status.


Silence is weak on paper, but the AI's refusal to cure it makes it strong.  Furthermore, silence is one of the easiest ailments to inflict.  At present, it is inflicted incidentally (e.g. from Kagesougi, the Bizen Boat katana, or Silencer, all of which deal HP damage as well) rather than intentionally (e.g. from Paralyze or Blackmail).  Lastly, at 48 CT, Silence will last a whopping 4~5 turns.  The same argument applies to Blind.  For these reasons, I don't believe that persistence past death is necessary.

Quote from: Reks on June 02, 2013, 03:04:06 am
I noticed the AI tends to use both if they're already targeted with something, whether or not they'd survive even if they had it.


Does the AI use it on team members that are being targeted, or only itself?  Either way, 0 CT Wall should complement this observed behaviour.

Before closing, I'd like to issue a proposal.  What would people think if we made Earth elemental attacks tend to ignore evasion?  The reason is clear: the Earth element is unreliable because of the presence of float.  By making Earth attacks tend to ignore evasion, we give them the reliability they need.  Conversely, from the defenders viewpoint, coping with unevadable attacks is a pain.  (Consider, for example, how annoying Hidden Knife and Magic Guns are!)  So, float becomes a much-needed coping mechanism alongside element absorption.  (Granted, not all Earth attacks will ignore evasion.  Quake, for instance, is good enough as it is.)

Anyway, the reason why I propose this now is because Raven's suggestions for Punch Art and Ninjutsu call for Water to become the unevadable element.  How does the following sound, instead?

Punch Art
Repeating Fist Clay Fist: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 0 Vert, 0 CT, 8 MP, Dmg_B(PA*10), Earth Element, Unevadable, Uncounterable, CounterFloodable
Earth Slash Torrent Slash: 6 Range, Linear, 1 Vert, 0 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_B(PA*8), Water Element, Evadable, Counterable, CounterFloodable

Ninjutsu
Suiton Doton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_UF(PA*8), Earth Element, Unevadable, Unreflectable, Counterable, CounterFloodable

Coincidentally, the Vanish Mantle+Black Costume combo will no longer be able to stonewall Ninjutsu teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 05:49:15 am
I'm not sure how everyone feels about my proposal about dropping Ultimus Bow down a WP, perhaps hesitance? I primarily propose it because Ultimus Bow and it's partner in crime, Kagesougi have made Crossbows, especially Gastrafitis go to the wayside. So I came up with an alternate solution: Make Gastrafitis literally Kagesougi: The Weapon.

Gastrafitis: 14 WP - Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Don't Move, Forced Two Hands

(Curious how it's basically combining the other crossbow's procs)
Combined with Kagesougi's MP increase, I think Gastrafitis should see some use again.

Quote from: reinoe on June 02, 2013, 01:48:55 am
Thinking about ways to get the A.I. to proactively use Protect/Shell.  I came up with an idea that's probably overboard but I figured I'd post it anyway for the sake of discussion.  What if Wall also triggered Defend?  The problem of course is that it might make turtling teams too powerful.  Also the A.I. loves babying itself so another problem might be that it'll spam wall until it runs ouf of MP.


Wall's new 0 CT is designed to get the AI to use Wall more by being more capable of intercepting blows. Building your teams understanding this fact will probably net more successful strategies with Wall.

Personally I think any attempt to use Protect/Shell proactively will just end up promoting some overly powerful stall skill. I actually think that using it in Item attributes are it's most balanced application believe it or not.

QuoteMaintenance: Change to a movement ability, 0 JP

While I feel that Maintenance is simply not a worthwhile Support, I've been hesitant to support changing it to a Movement, preferring it be switched to being a Reaction. It's been something I haven't been able to put my finger on until recently. The reason I feel that changing Maintenance to a Movement is a bad idea is because it too easy for tanky units to add it on painlessly, especially with such a low cost. Making Maintenance too easy to tack on will phase out Item Breaking strategies. Anti-Items, as annoying and heartbreaking a skills they are, serve a powerful purpose in the game as a way to counter defensive teams, especially Iron Boots and Cursed Ring users, the items that would benefit strongly from Maintenance as a Movement. Meanwhile, Maintenance as a Reaction while having to compete with Auto Potion, Absorb MP, and other popular defensive reactions, would ultimately find itself seeing use on fragile offensive units that can't really use another reaction well because of how easily and quickly they die or 40-40 units who would have bad reactions rates anyways and maybe would prefer not losing their stuff over reactions that only go off less than half the time.

That's my 2 cents on it.

QuoteDoes the AI use it on team members that are being targeted, or only itself?  Either way, 0 CT Wall should complement this observed behaviour.


Yes, the AI will already use Wall to save their teammates if CT permits it.

My final item for tonight is concerning Genji Armor. Simply put, it's HP is too low. It loses out to Robes + Iron Boots, which alone grants a higher HP total, making the point of giving Genji Armor low HP in the first place moot. I think it needs to be more competitive with Robes by giving it at least 70-80 HP and possibly 10 more MP.

inb4 doku's gone mad
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 06:19:08 am
QuotePunch Art
Torrent Fist Earth Fist: 1 Range, 0 AoE, 0 Vert, 0 CT, 8 MP, Dmg_B(PA*11), Earth Element, Unevadable, Uncounterable, CounterFloodable
Earth Slash Torrent Slash: 6 Range, Linear, 1 Vert, 0 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_B(PA*8), Water Element, Evadable, Counterable, CounterFloodable

Ninjutsu
Suiton Doton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_UF(PA*8), Earth Element, Unevadable, Unreflectable, Counterable, CounterFloodable

Coincidentally, the Vanish Mantle+Black Costume combo will no longer be able to stonewall Ninjutsu teams.


If we did that, my first thought would be that perhaps the changes to Iga and Koga Knife won't be necessary then, since there's skills to actually complement the pairing now, particularly Doton and Fuuton? Otherwise the elemental changes seems reasonable enough.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 02, 2013, 06:30:24 am
Why are we changing Iga and Koga Knife in the first place?  I thought it was to get around Thief Hats.

Regardless, even if the Ninjatou combo gets changed to Earth+Fire, there is still Spiked Futon for boosting Wind damage.  The odd one out is now Aspergillum.

I added Monk, Ninja, Lancer, and Mediator changes to the proposal summary.  Concerning monks, the changes allow for an optimized monk (FS Bag, Power Sleeve, 108 Gems, and Martial Arts), to push 300 damage on 70-70 Brave.  Keep in mind that many options for reducing Water, Wind, and Earth damage exist, so it's not so bad.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 06:34:58 am
We can always just bring the Flame Whip back. Or just make it a Stone Whip.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
Wall doesn't need an MP cost increase, does it? I thought people were fine with leaving it at 25 MP.

W-EV nerf to the spears seem unnecessary.

I'm not sure Bloody Strings needs the WP nerf. People aren't using it. Also not 2Hable like Blood Sword, but it does have range. hmm. Actually, the damage output is very comparable to a 2H Blood Sword (15 MA Bard with AUP compared to ~12 PA something with 2H Blood Sword). I dunno, just feels like another unnecessary change, and the WP nerf makes it even more unlikely for it to see use.

I'm fine with the status reshuffling on the headbands, but I think they should give at least 40 HP. I feel Monks would become a bit too squishy - their current HP levels are just about right IMO. Are headbands becoming part of Equip Clothes? Is the lowered HP to compensate for that? Or just simply for their status protection?

I think Counter Flood can stay at 250 JP. The damage isn't great (well, it's (on average) comparable to Damage Split, actually, haha), but it isn't usually going to hit for AoE, and the main draw to CF for me, at least, is the status procs. Assuming 55% proc rate, statuses only occur 11% of the time. On the right unit, the HP gained back from Damage Split can keep said unit alive for another turn/attack, and if they survive a high damage attack like Holy, the recoil can be quite severe.

I'm on the fence about Save the Queen and Raganrok granting Always: Protect/Shell. That feels really powerful.

Were Priests going to receive +1 SP as well? Or was that only in the case where Time Mage goes to 8 Speed? And are Time Mages going to be able to equip Shields? I'd certainly be fine with that.

I more or less agree with the changes I did not comment on.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 02, 2013, 04:18:29 pm
I think as we inch closer to 1.39 it might be nice to see if we can do something about staves.  It's a little unfair for something like staves to get no improvements.  But it's also one of those things were just about everyone had an opinion at some point.  Almost all of those opinions seemed balanced.  Since just about every idea seemed to be a fair and balanced one and there were ideas for each individual stave we didn't  even come close to a consensus.

QuoteWere Priests going to receive +1 SP as well? Or was that only in the case where Time Mage goes to 8 Speed? And are Time Mages going to be able to equip Shields? I'd certainly be fine with that.

This was one of those things were the forum seemed to be split.  Unlike the "Staves" example, this got split into only two camps.  Either Time mages getting a stat boost while getting shields and going to 8 speed, or Time Mages just getting 10 speed with little or no stat boosts.  Both ideas were good ones.

I don't recall too much discussion about priests because the Time Mage situation was one of those all consuming things.  In fact that Staves discussion was an extension of the Time Mage discussion.


EDIT: There are currently 3 Genji Gauntlets and one Power Wrist currently in play considering all teams in Arena.  I think the evasion on Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet need to be higher than the currently proposed 25%
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 02, 2013, 11:50:47 pm
Having Time Mages at 10 speed would make it hard to synergize the speed between units. Not true in EVERY sense, but it's not the best of choices in my opinion. Giving them shields opens them up to a bit more evasion and Elemental immunities/Absorbs/weaknesses. They're glass already with their poorer stats, so it should give them a bit more survivability.

As for staves, well.... It depends on how they're used overall. They, in theory, CAN be potentially good for melee. The reason they're overlooked is because the White Staff, Healing Staff (less so from the Holy boost), and Golden Staff primarily rely on their melee procs/effects. There are far better alternatives in the MA field that aren't as risky to use as mages, who are the only ones to really use them effectively, are squishy. The other staves are good as is, potentially 'overpowered' in Mace of Zeus's case, which is because it overshadows the others by a huge degree, aside from the Wizard Staff.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 04, 2013, 07:21:12 am
Old quotes, but:

Quote from: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 05:49:15 am
Gastrafitis: 14 WP - Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Don't Move, Forced Two Hands


No complaints here.

Quote from: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 05:49:15 amWhile I feel that Maintenance is simply not a worthwhile Support, I've been hesitant to support changing it to a Movement, preferring it be switched to being a Reaction.  The reason I feel that changing Maintenance to a Movement is a bad idea is because it too easy for tanky units to add it on painlessly, especially with such a low cost.


Well, that's the point.  If it's not painless to equip, it never will be equipped.  Besides, tanks that use Maintenance (as a movement ability) pass up on Move-HP UP and soon-to-be Speed +1.  If you're still concerned, we could bump up the JP cost from 0 to 100, or even 200.

Quote from: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 05:49:15 am
My final item for tonight is concerning Genji Armor. Simply put, it's HP is too low. It loses out to Robes + Iron Boots, which alone grants a higher HP total, making the point of giving Genji Armor low HP in the first place moot. I think it needs to be more competitive with Robes by giving it at least 70-80 HP and possibly 10 more MP.


Genji Armor is a joke item.  FFMaster threw it in because he didn't have the attribute space to make it unique.

Quote from: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
Wall doesn't need an MP cost increase, does it? I thought people were fine with leaving it at 25 MP.


Hard to say.  35 MP is pretty steep, though.  It will be easier to judge how much MP it should cost after seeing how effectively the AI exploits it.

Quote from: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
W-EV nerf to the spears seem unnecessary.


I think so, too.

Quote from: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
I'm not sure Bloody Strings needs the WP nerf.


Me neither.  Seems like a cop-out for those that refuse to run P-EV gear.

Quote from: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
Are headbands becoming part of Equip Clothes? Is the lowered HP to compensate for that? Or just simply for their status protection?


I think that Equip Clothes was the idea when Raven proposed those changes.  I'm not sure what FFMaster's opinion on this is, though.  I believe FFMaster was against including headbands in Equip Clothes in the past.

Quote from: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
I think Counter Flood can stay at 250 JP. The damage isn't great (well, it's (on average) comparable to Damage Split, actually, haha), but it isn't usually going to hit for AoE, and the main draw to CF for me, at least, is the status procs.


Damage Split doesn't trigger off of status attacks or dodged attacks, though, whereas Counter Flood does.  Counter Flood is very deadly when used by Geomancers, Bards, and Dancers.  Give it a try!

Quote from: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pm
I'm on the fence about Save the Queen and [Ragnarok] granting Always: Protect/Shell. That feels really powerful.


They'll certainly have growing pains!  Rest assured, Save the Queen and Ragnarok can only be used by Paladins, so their application is limited.

Quote from: Reks on June 02, 2013, 11:50:47 pm
As for staves, well.... There are far better alternatives in the MA field that aren't as risky to use as mages, who are the only ones to really use them effectively, are squishy.


Exactly.  What staves need is a job class that can equip them naturally and that has decent HP and MA - a tank mage class, if you will.  I originally wanted Time Mages to be the tank mages because the idea fits so well with their skill set.  Shortly after my proposal, though, FFMaster announced his Druid class.  Let's wait and see if Druids can fill the niche.

Quote from: Reks on June 02, 2013, 11:50:47 pm
Having Time Mages at 10 speed would make it hard to synergize the speed between units.


Well, there are still other mage classes with 8 SP synergy.  Time Magick fits comfortably on a Priest if you're concerned about its user outpacing the rest of the party.  Again, let's wait for Druids before making our final decision.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
(I'm guessing you already saw my composite list (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9446.msg184686#msg184686) in the 1.39 thread when you did yours, right Gaignun?

Also, wow that last post of mine in here had a few typos, but I guess they worked out even though "saw" was supposed to be "say" and there were other mix-ups & omissions. [/general failure])

Yeah, I'm still not sure about the whole Heaven's Cloud thing. I mean, I'm "sure" it needs some type of change, I'm just not sure what given that Wind Absorb is already kinda "meh" and arguably the "worst" elemental absorb; something has to be after all.

I'll try to come to a decision about it soon though since it would be rather hypocritical to often semi-jokingly complain about always being ignored and then have someone else feel like they were being ignored.

Needless to say, this post is probably going to be long even by my standards. That said, I'll try to compress everything as much as Ultimecia tried. That means I'm thus fated to fail; fucking SeeDs and space-time and Fate.

Given the discussion about Staves again, I'll start by just posting my suggestions for Stave changes again:


[STAVES]
1. White Staff's WP increases from 7 to 8 and it becomes Holy Elemental. -
Explanation: Basically this makes it having the Dia proc far more useful and Holy Elemental gets another ally since right now, with Holy Lance still sucking, the only (useful) Holy weapons are the rather exclusive Excalibur and Silver Bow.


2. Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.) -
Explanation: The Speed +1 is there partly because given that we were and still are unsure about Priest and Time Mage's speed and yet everyone agreed that a healer "should" be moving first. Even though Speed +1 is a big deal--and it's nice to see Sprint Shoes get a boost with Immune: Slow--and all, given Murasame has a) Block: Berserk and b) more power due to innate Two Hands, having dual strengthens and that W-EV still seem fair with no WP boost. Having both Strengthen: Dark & Holy means that Staves might actually gets used with Two Swords more outside of Wizard Staves, which are utterly interchangeable with Wizard Rods and, to a degree, C Bags.


3. Rainbow Staff's WP decreases from 10 to 7 and gains Block: Oil & +2 MA. -
Explanation: The severe drop in WP was solely due to adding +2 MA, which itself was solely as a compromise to Raven since I wanted and still want Wizard Staff to be/do something else and not be a carbon of Wizard Rod (or C Bag). That said, however, +2 MA is probably for the best since just Block: Oil doesn't seem like it would cut it very much against Gold Staff, which everyone at least agrees should be the "attack" Staff. So Rainbow Staff becomes the non-healing support staff that has benefit of a) being able to actually attack unlike Healing Staff and b) also boosts general magic instead of just Holy & Dark (which Healing would do more) while c) blocking Oil.


4. Wizard Staff's loses +2 MA, becomes Dark Element, gains the ability to cast at 50% the spell Harm (basically Dark element version of Dia, except with a 20% chance to Silence) and gets renamed Black Staff. -
Explanation: As just said above with Healing Staff, when it came to suggesting Staff re-designs, I tried to think of ones that could actually benefit from the fact that Staves work with Two Swords; the current ones really...can't aside from the current generic as hell Wizard Staff. The current Wizard Staff also has the problem of not really helping the already crappy Time Mage class, the class that's stuck with using only Staves unless they want to use Bags (or Fists), much if at all. The +2 MA does nothing for Comet and basically does very little for everything else Time Mage has, especially Balance. So I figured the new Wizard Staff (or whatever is in it spot, this being "Black Staff") should benefit Time Mage somehow, especially if I was suggesting that White Staff be made more beneficial to Priests and people who want Priests as attackers. So making the opposite of Wizard Staff just seemed to work since Time Mages could just strengthen it alongside their Demis. This especially since there aren't really any Dark element weapons right now anyway; there are literally only two--the almost never used Sadist's Whip and the barely-more used Koutetsu Knife. Even if no one is probably going to be using Black Staff with Chivalry any time soon, there's at least room in the Dark element weapons category for an MA-based weapon if nothing else.


5. Gold Staff's WP increases from 8 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 10% to 15%. -
Explanation: This is the most straightforward explanation: Gold Staff is the only current Staff--since current White Staff is horrible--overtly concerned with actually hitting the opponent. As such, it should be rewarded more for hitting opponents who don't have positive status on them, hence more WP, and it should be made easier for it to "get in" to attack in the first place, hence more W-EV (since giving it Move +1 is both far more "iffy" and subject to the lack of Item Attribute space). I wouldn't be against this getting 20% W-EV and Healing Staff "only" going up to 15% W-EV so long as Healing Staff's evasion increases (since giving it even more WP isn't going to do crap outside of give Kagesougi something else to abuse).


I gave no changes for Mace of Zeus since I've ultimately come to believe that Staff is more or less fine. Besides, with the main problematic user of it, Scholar, dying and formerdeathcorps's team not convincing me it's broken as he seems to think, there's no point in changing what's the only currently good (non-carbon copy) Staff.



With all that typed up, might as respond to Gaignun's lists first before actually quoting anyone. I'll be using the one from Gaignun's thread (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9753.msg189140#msg189140) since he apparently updated on Sunday and I didn't notice until a couple of hours ago.

Assume if I don't comment on something here, that I'm probably more or less fine with it:


Knives
1. Yeah, I obviously thought that Dual Cutters does need the attack boost, but I don't recall anyone commenting on it, so thanks for putting that out there (even if you came up with it independently).

2. IIRC, Air Knife is actually getting decreased to 11 WP, not 12, since it will still be the most powerful Knife between Oil and/or Strengthen. It needs to neither beat nor tie with Katar and Orichalcum from the start, even with Thief Hat around halving Wind.

3. You missed people more or less agreeing that Throwing Knife should get more WP since it's...barely whelming right now. [/YJ Robin] I think the consensus (that Raven gave) was 12 WP, even if that might mean its Death Sentence proc may "need" to lessen a bit later.


Ninjatou
1. I can handle Hidden Knife losing both Speed and W-EV. Someone still needs to test whether its Transparent aspect is screwing with Weapon Break though or if my horrible luck just weirdly screwed me over against formerdeathcorps.

2. I'm pretty sure Spell Edge still has its +1 MA. No one had a problem with that combined with 100% Spell Absorb.


Swords
1. No one actually agreed on the Phoenix Blade thing and I know that I at least thought there should be quite a bit of discussion about Immune: Critical if it stays around at all. At the very least, I know I personally said that it needs to lose some W-EV (20%) and one of its immunities if it gets Immune: Critical given its abuse already.


Knight Swords
I'm fine with these.


Axes
1. I still suggest re-naming Decapitate "Maim", but more importantly, I think Giant Axe's W-EV wasn't supposed to drop at all. At least, I'm pretty sure people expressed no problem with it keeping 30% W-EV so long as Slasher was made usable and Battle Axe made not absurd, though perhaps something changed in the past month I've been "gone"....

2. As reinoe pointed out, you missed Slasher's big (suggested) change (by myself and others, though others were initially joking): it becomes Two Swords capable at the "cost" of losing some of its W-EV, going to 20% so as to not obviate the just-boosted Parry Edge.


Staves
See my own list above since no one really agreed on any of these save Gold Staff being the "attack" Staff and Mace of Zeus probably being fine.


Guns
1. Spellguns becoming Nether is wholly necessary, so I agree. I still think they should perhaps be Forced Two Hands as well, but for now them becoming Nether might be enough.

2. As long as -1 Sp can be done without anything becoming...wonky, then I guess the new Stone Gun suggestion might be fine. It might have to take a bit of a WP nerf as well or something though, especially with Speed +1 being existent next version.


Crossbows
The buff to Silencer actually meant a WP decrease for Poison Bow as well, which I still think sort of needs to happen, if only because it forces people to see (even more) how overpowered current Hawk's Eye is. I wouldn't be against buffing Poison Bow's status though depending....


Longbows
Long Bow getting +1 Move is fine. Probably.


Spears
1. Yeah...I'm not really sure the now-elemental--you forgot to mark them as neutral--Spears need W-EV nerfs or even WP anymore, especially if Lancers aren't getting a boost to MA. The Spears could maybe lose their +1 Sp though.

2. I kinda agree with Dokurider's Cyclops suggestion, though I also don't know if this (read: your suggested Holy Spear/Lance) is what FFMaster had in mind when he said he was fixing Holy Breath and Holy Spear.


Harps
10 WP on Bloody Strings is actually 2 WP more than it was agreed upon, at least when fdc and I were pretty much the only ones talking about it. That might be fine, but 8 WP or even 9 WP (as a "compromise") isn't nearly as bad as people think.



Armour
These are all fine, though I think even I agreed with Raven and the others that the Headbands should have more HP, even if I'm still really uncomfortable with all of the things that Ribbon/Chakra Band now blocks.



...Yeah, Immune: Oil isn't enough to save this thing most likely. Still, I guess that's better than what I've still (not) come up with.



1. I like the Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet changes since the more I thought about Raven's suggested mantles changes, the more they seemed rather overpowered. Yours might have a tad too much EV though, even Power Wrist if only because of Defending still doubling EV.

2. I approve of this change to Sprint Shoes even if people were already using it apparently.

3. When it comes to Jade Armlet, I'd rather have it block Faith & Innocent instead of Slow between Sprint Shoes getting Immune: Slow, Headbands being part of Equip Clothes still being...unsure and nothing else blocking Faith & Innocent still accessory-wise.

4. I like the change/boost to Defense Armlet since pretty much no one is using that poor thing.

5. I of course approve of Cursed Ring losing +1 Sp. I think I'd even be fine with it losing Null: Holy too like Dokurider suggested or maybe having Null: Holy "only" become Halve: Holy, though the latter might make even more powerful in a way....



Squire
When it comes to Ultima, outside of the JP drop that I suggested, I'm not sure how I feel about the slight buff to its CT and MP cost. I guess they're probably fine though, I'm just unsure, especially when all the Clothes are suggested to get more MP.


Chemist
1. I agree with the Auto Potion nerf. I'm not sure if anyone else did though.

2. I agree with Maintenance becoming Movement--I can't remember if I said so explicitly. The JP cost might need to be 100 JP though. It's better than the free Jump +1 since, if you're using Maintenance, then it protects your setup and its effect is constant and not map dependent like how Jump +X is. It shouldn't be 200 JP though; 150 JP should likely be the max.


Paladin
1. I still think that Reraise needs more CT and/or needs not to self-target, but I'll compromise at 1 CT as long as it has *some* CT since instant, self-targeting Reraise is obviously bullshit.

2. I approve of the Equip Armor JP decrease even if I don't think it was ever agreed upon as to how much it should decrease or if it should even decrease at all.


Archer
1. I agree with all of the JP decreases. I think someone wanted Leg Aim to be more accurate though and I wouldn't really have a problem with that.

2. Even though your listed MP cost for Hawk's Eye is actually more than my suggested 10, it's still too good at 12 MP as something that adds both Poison and Oil on top of guaranteed damage. It really needs to lose Poison or Oil, preferably the former.

3. Something still needs to be done to make Cover Fire less absurdly swingy, I think people agree; it's just no one suggested how, myself included.


Monk
1. Not really sure why Spin Fist needs an MP cost or why we're reshuffling the proposed elemental changes to the redone Punch Art/Martial Arts, but I'll comment on that the next time I post when I have more time to think over it.

2. Equip Clothes probably needs a higher JP cost, at least if it's for sure getting Headbands as part of it. We need FFMaster to sound off on that still though, so for now I'll skip that too.


Priest
Even as much as I've kvetched about White Magick being strong and only getting stronger, I really don't think Wall needs to cost that much MP, especially with no MP increase on Iron Will, Dispel getting a boost and Save the Queen & Ragnarok getting boosts. For Wall, 20-25 MP should probably be the "max".


Wizard
1. I approve of the undiscussed changes to Frog.

2. I also approve of the changes to Death, though I think that Dokurider has a point about it probably being better off as Nether spell.

3. I was under the impression that people wanted Flare to be less expensive than even that, but personally 40 MP is probably fine with me. Maybe 35 MP would be better though.


Time Mage
1. I'm really not sure that Comet needs to be that quick, especially with the change to Auto Potion.

2. Similarly, I'm not sure that Sinkhole needs to be that cheap JP-wise given how quick and disruptive and ultimately good it is actually is, especially if the other Time Magick spells are becoming cheaper like they (save for the possibly the aforementioned Comet) need to.

3. I'm still unsure how I feel about that Demi change ultimately, but it should be...interesting regardless.


Summoner
1. I approve of that personal change to Titan.

2. I approve of that personal change to Bahamut since, yeah, no one's been using the poor King.


Thief
1. I approve of the change to Bad Tough Luck.

2. I of course approve, literally a hundred times over, of Quickening dying.


Mediator
1. Oh, hey. You used my suggested change for Persuade. I still think it should be renamed "Stall", but it's not like Persuade is that far off name-wise, so....

2. Well, you added a change to Refute in...but I think pretty much everyone agreed with it being split up into two halves: a negative-canceling ability that also canceled Berserk and a positive-canceling ability that also canceled Faith & Innocent but not Charging & Performing. Oh well. The inability to cancel Charging & Performing was the key change really.


Oracle
1. I approve of the relatively undiscussed change to Beguile. Unlike reinoe, I think its accuracy is probably fine; it's difficult to tell given how swingy Charm is though--it either sucks or outright devastates teams in most instances.

2. I approve of Dispel's AoE boost...though now that I think about it, I'm not really sure why the hell it "should" cancel Faith (or Innocent). That's just an "out-loud" musing about a new, general realization though.

3. Good to see the Paralyze thing realized, though I believe its missing the complimentary slight speed nerf to 4 CT or the speed boost that Sleep was supposed to get to 3 CT (between Paralyze and Mimic Daravon kicking its ass). I forget which though.

4. Thanks for backing me up on the "Balance to Oracle" thing since literally no else had said anything else about it until you mentioned it again about a week ago.


Geomancer
1. Yeah, Counter Flood needs to more expensive, especially if Geomancy is getting a bit of power back now with CT5Holy's suggested buff--which you missed, though I can't blame you since I had forgotten about it myself.

2. No one has anything about if Sandstorm should "get fixed" becoming Berserk capable like its supposed or keep its Stop even though Hell Ivy--for reasons I still can't fathom--has Stop now. I figure this should be talked about at some point.


Lancer
Yeah. Ignore Height mostly sucks, so it costing half as much is more than fair.


Samurai
1. With regards to Asura and Heaven's Cloud, like I said to Dokurider, I need yet more time to think about this.

2. I of course approve of the Bizen Boat change.

3. I still think Masamune and/or Murasame (and maybe even Chirijiraden) needs some type of change or slight nerf, but that's apparently just me, so....


Ninja
1. I still think Kagesougi should lose the ability to Poison now as well (or that Shuriken's chance to Poison should be [greatly] improved), but I'll take what I can get here.

2. I approve of Kibaku Fuda (and will try to remember the name for once).

3. I approve of both Mushin and the newer Misogi, though I think both of their JP costs should be (at least) 100 JP. Mushin because Innocent boosts Ninjutsu & greatly lessen most incoming magick. Misogi just because it helps potentially quite a bit, even if it's "only" self-targeting. If I had to pick, though, then I'd go with only the former being 100 JP (or more) since the -ton backed by Innocent status on a unit with above average PA still hit like a (non-Suplexable) train.


Scholar/Druid
I guess I'm fine with those changes to Tornado & Quake even if they're not becoming slower, which is what I cared about the most.


Bard & Dance
1. The Last abilities getting back up in percentage is good, especially since they're not back up to 50%, which I realized could be obnoxious in the Last Dance case if Quickening died as it should. This even if Mimes are unreliable and Last Dance is slow.

2. I approve of the change to Brave Up of course. Let's see if anyone will actually make use of it now, much less good use.

3. I still think that Magic Song & Battle Song need to go back to being only 50% since otherwise Polka Polka & Disillusion are basically worthless. At least Slow Dance & Cheer Song get a boost by Quickening dying in a fire like it should have forever ago. Polka Polka & Disillusion? Not so much.

4. I think everyone pretty much agrees that Wiznaibus needs to die for reasons that CT5Holy pointed out; they just haven't agreed how to "fix" it or what to replace it with. I have my own suggestions, of course, which you've already seen, but people currently still have others. Still, I figure you could at least note that Wiznaibus is basically "removed from the game" by this point.



I agree with all of these, especially with Summoners getting more MP and Lancers getting Robes back. I think that Lancers could maybe do with another point of MA, but meh.

I also think there was something else that was forgotten job-wise, but it probably wasn't important....



1. I'm fine with these changes to Blind, Silence & Berserk.

2. I also agree with Barren that Regen & Poison could probably stand to last a bit less if they're going to continue to persist after death now.

3. We "should" try to continue discussing the MP Regen (Refresh) & MP Poison thing even if it's unlikely to be in 1.39.

4. Similarly, also if taking notes from Journey of the Five, then we should discuss Poison & Regen and whether they should affect the Undead still.

5. Similarly, I also wouldn't be against discussing if Sleep's CT should become shorter if we're also taking notes from Journey of the Five and if Mimic Daravon still exists as an instant AoE ability.



So...considering that took up much more time than I expected and I wanted to go for a walk, I'll save quoting people to death for next time actually. I'm starting to get a headache anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 05, 2013, 04:26:25 am
I don't have time to comment on every one of your points, Damned, but:

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
1. White Staff's WP increases from 7 to 8 and it becomes Holy Elemental.


Hmm.  I kept White Staff at 7 WP because it packs a punch when dual-wielded.  A balanced setup (Golden Hairpin, 2x White Staff, 12 MA, 70 Brave) deals 164~230 damage.  Dia procs once on average, adding an extra 50~99 damage (40-40 Faith and 70-70 Faith, respectively) with a chance of Blind.  All things considered, average damage is around 240~305 with a chance of Blind.  By comparison, 12-PA dual-Platinum Swords deal 226~318 damage with zero chance of Blind.

At 8 WP, dual-White Staff damage rises by around 30 HP on average.  It outperforms Platinum Swords, but is susceptible to elemental resistances.  Are we okay with that?

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
2. Healing Staff's W-EV increases from 10% to 20% and gains Strengthen: Dark & Speed +1 in addition to Strengthen: Holy. (Possible renames: Chaos Staff, Cosmos Staff, Priest Staff, etc.)


I found this overpowering.  Eldritch Staff is the same, but without the W-EV boost, nor Strengthen: Holy.  It's essentially an H-Bag, but with 10% more W-EV, zero chance of wasting turns smacking enemies, and a small boost to Demi, Lich, and Koutetsu.  The W-EV boost is transferred to Gold Staff, which is in greater need of buffs.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
3. Rainbow Staff's WP decreases from 10 to 7 and gains Block: Oil & +2 MA.
4. Wizard Staff's loses +2 MA, becomes Dark Element, gains the ability to cast at 50% the spell Harm (basically Dark element version of Dia, except with a 20% chance to Silence) and gets renamed Black Staff.


I'm with Raven in believing that there is no problem with the current Wizard Staff.  Wizard Staff exists for classes that do not have access to Wizard Rod, and vice versa.  This version of Rainbow Staff will overshadow Wizard Rod.  Thus, I cannot agree with a staff getting both +2 MA and immunity to Oil unless Wizard Rod gets something as well.

I am more inclined to making Rainbow Staff Black Staff and leaving Wizard Staff as is.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
5. Gold Staff's WP increases from 8 to 10 and its W-EV increases from 10% to 15%


Gold Staff's W-EV is set to 20% so that magick users fancy it simply for resilience to physical-based offense.  Setting its WP to 10 will make it vastly superior to Parry Edge, though, seeing as how Gold Staff cancels positive statii at 100%.  This is another Masamune-killer weapon.  We simply don't see it because stave wielders as a concept are unpalatable.  I think it is better to make the +2-MA staff the beastly DPS weapon (seeing as how... well... it has +2 MA), and leave Gold Staff for its sinister auxiliary effect.

In other words, how does boosting the +2-MA weapons to 10 WP sound?

Then again, Parry Edge sucks in its own right.  Maybe Gold Staff can be bumped up to 9 WP in spite of all this.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
2. IIRC, Air Knife is actually getting decreased to 11 WP, not 12, since it will still be the most powerful Knife between Oil and/or Strengthen. It needs to neither beat nor tie with Katar and Orichalcum from the start, even with Thief Hat around halving Wind.


I must have missed this discussion.  Did we seriously agree with dropping Air Knife's WP all the way to 11?  I understand that it's currently very powerful, but I don't want to nerf it into oblivion.  At 11 WP, Air Knife with 108 Gems will be no stronger than Katar.  However, at least with Katar the accessory slot is free for Cherche and whatnot.

If it's Oil we're afraid of, then we should be fixing Oil.  Oil shouldn't be overriding elemental resistances in my mind.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
3. You missed people more or less agreeing that Throwing Knife should get more WP since it's...barely whelming right now. [/YJ Robin] I think the consensus (that Raven gave) was 12 WP, even if that might mean its Death Sentence proc may "need" to lessen a bit later.


I disagreed with this, saying that Throwing Knife is attractive for its Death Sentence proc (particularly on support classes, like Chemists and Mediators, who aren't built for damage to begin with).  Raising its WP and reducing its proc rate turns it into yet another DPS weapon.  That's why I left the change out for now.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
2. I'm pretty sure Spell Edge still has its +1 MA. No one had a problem with that combined with 100% Spell Absorb.


I accidentally left this out.  I'll add it back.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
1. No one actually agreed on the Phoenix Blade thing and I know that I at least thought there should be quite a bit of discussion about Immune: Critical if it stays around at all.


Okay.  I'll cross it out for now.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
Axes


Yeah, I am aware of that.  It's not changed at the moment because I don't have time to dig up the full change description. 

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
1. Yeah...I'm not really sure the now-elemental--you forgot to mark them as neutral--Spears need W-EV nerfs or even WP anymore, especially if Lancers aren't getting a boost to MA. The Spears could maybe lose their +1 Sp though.


You're the second person to comment on these nerfs, so I'll strike the changes out for now.  You think they really need to lose +1 SP, though?  These weapons don't seem particulary powerful to me to begin with.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
These are all fine, though I think even I agreed with Raven and the others that the Headbands should have more HP, even if I'm still really uncomfortable with all of the things that Ribbon/Chakra Band now blocks.[/spoiler]


Any suggestions for how much extra HP they should receive?

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
1. I like the Power Wrist and Genji Gauntlet changes since the more I thought about Raven's suggested mantles changes, the more they seemed rather overpowered. Yours might have a tad too much EV though, even Power Wrist if only because of Defending still doubling EV.


I'm just trying to make them good.  They're made to compete with Feather and Leather Mantles: either +1 PA/MA or +20 P/M-EV.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
1. I agree with the Auto Potion nerf. I'm not sure if anyone else did though.


I'm pretty sure Auto Potion was supposed to be nerfed last patch, but never was.  I'm simply transferring the change to this patch.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
2. Even though your listed MP cost for Hawk's Eye is actually more than my suggested 10, it's still too good at 12 MP as something that adds both Poison and Oil on top of guaranteed damage. It really needs to lose Poison or Oil, preferably the former.


Is Hawk's Eye really that much of a problem?  I don't follow the videos thread, so I'm not aware.  Again, I think Oil is overpowered in its own right.  If we could keep Oil from overriding elemental resistances, and if we also reduce Poison's CT, would you still want to see Hawk's Eye nerfed?

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
3. Something still needs to be done to make Cover Fire less absurdly swingy, I think people agree; it's just no one suggested how, myself included.


We already did, didn't we?  The RNG chooses a value between 1 and 6 now, rather than 1 and 3 as before.  Cover Fire isn't a top-tier skill any more.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
Monk
1. Not really sure why Spin Fist needs an MP cost or why we're reshuffling the proposed elemental changes to the redone Punch Art/Martial Arts, but I'll comment on that the next time I post when I have more time to think over it.


The elements give Wind, Water, and Earth some (much needed) representation in skill sets.  The MP cost was a long time coming, I believe.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
Even as much as I've kvetched about White Magick being strong and only getting stronger, I really don't think Wall needs to cost that much MP, especially with no MP increase on Iron Will, Dispel getting a boost and Save the Queen & Ragnarok getting boosts. For Wall, 20-25 MP should probably be the "max".


All right.  I'll strike off the MP nerf.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
2. I also approve of the changes to Death, though I think that Dokurider has a point about it probably being better off as Nether spell.


I'm liking the Nether formula, too.  Does anyone object to switching the formula?

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
3. I'm still unsure how I feel about that Demi change ultimately, but it should be...interesting regardless.


It's best to compare it to first-tier Fire.

Demi: faster CT and is relatively independent of caster MA, but costs more JP, can't be boosted by oil, and is less accurate
Fire: costs fewer JP, does more damage on average, can be boosted by oil, applies oil itself, and is more accurate, but has a slower CT, is strongly dependent on caster MA, and doesn't exist on a skill set with support abilities.

I think they more or less complement each other.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 02:31:59 am
3. I approve of both Mushin and the newer Misogi, though I think both of their JP costs should be (at least) 100 JP. Mushin because Innocent boosts Ninjutsu & greatly lessen most incoming magick. Misogi just because it helps potentially quite a bit, even if it's "only" self-targeting. If I had to pick, though, then I'd go with only the former being 100 JP (or more) since the -ton backed by Innocent status on a unit with above average PA still hit like a (non-Suplexable) train.


Mushin is another one of those skills that is good only on paper.  The AI does not use it proactively.  The traditional way of getting the AI to apply Innocent is to put a Scholar on your team, but even then, the AI will only use it on the first turn; once engaged with the enemy, the AI will often choose to attack rather than reapply Innocent.

Misogi could be bumped up to 100 JP, though.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 05, 2013, 05:01:04 am
How would Immune:Critical work?  I'm asking this in all sincerity.  Isn't "status:critical" a condition where your HP gets low?  Would "Immune:Critical" actually keep your HP above a certain threshold?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 05, 2013, 05:16:45 am
I think it would prevent you from running away when your HP is low.  I could be wrong.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on June 05, 2013, 10:09:35 am
I thought it meant that the unit would be immune to critical hits, silly me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 11:16:04 am
(Well, that didn't take long. Too bad I've been distracted by something else for the past...four hours.)

I'll respond to Gaignun's response outside of quotations since I figure it will be more concise that way:

1. White Staff: I'm fine with it "only" being 7 WP then.

2. Eldritch Staff/Healing Staff: I can understand being accused of that version being overpowered, but I'm really not understanding why your version ONLY has Strengthen: Dark I guess. Why does it not still have Strengthen: Holy, especially since no other Two Swords-compatible weapon can do that? Also, I'm guessing you came up with "Eldritch Staff", right?

3. Wizard Staff: It's less that Wizard Staff is an active problem and more that it's dead space. Literally the only Staff classes that cannot use Wizard Rod are Priest and Time Mage and both of those, as I already said, can use C Bag. Really, the only thing that losing Wizard Staff would actually mean is that you can't have attack Priests, which really isn't much of a loss since Priests already do too much as it is and they still have the nuke that is Holy as well as Dia; besides, Priests still gets Flails anyway, which almost no one else gets. Meanwhile, even with Secondaries, Time Mage doesn't really care; it's not getting an MA boost as it is, so it's not like it's going to magically start being used with attack mage Secondaries all that much more. I just think that Wizard Staff's space could be much better utilized at present is all rather than me seeing it as a "problem".

4. Gold Staff & +2 MA, 10 WP weapons: I'm fine leaving it with 8 WP or "only" giving it 9 WP, partly because, yeah, Parry Edge "needs" help even if Swords are easily in top three of the most boosted weapon classes, if not at the very top. Giving 10 WP weapons +2 MA as well...doesn't make me all that comfortable; it would be heavily dependent on what else they did as well of course.

5. Air Knife: I'm pretty sure it's "supposed" to be 11 WP, but as you said, the problem lies more with Oil. Too bad that's unlikely to change any time soon though. If it took so long for people to see how broken the obviously busted Quickening was, the way more subtly overpowered Oil is even more contentious. That said, if that's the case, then shouldn't Orichalcum be boosted to 13 WP as well since otherwise it's "inferior" to Katar too, especially when Two Handed.

6. Throwing Knife: Personally, I think even with 12 WP, that its proc probably won't need to be lowered, especially since unlike the other Knives it can't even be used with Counter due to its range. Also personally though, I thought that only boosting it to 11 WP would be fine, but if people want to go with 12 WP, then I doubt anything will end up broken.

7. Elemental Lances/Spears: Oh, I'm not really sure they need to lose +1 SP. I was just musing about it as something that's possible out-loud since people were talking about it.

8. Headband: I could have sworn that Raven had upped the amounts already in the 1.39 changes thread. I'm too lazy/tired to look for it right now, but if it not, then I'll think on it. The MP costs are fine though.

9. Power Wrist & Genji Gauntlet: Understandable. I'm still a bit weary though. Maybe only 25% A-EV then?

10. Auto Potion: That's news to me then. I honestly don't recall. I support it though, so meh.

11. Hawk Eye: It is currently really dumb. It's just being overshadowed by even dumber things like Quickening, Cursed Ring and Spellguns. Once again, the problem is Oil, but as said above, that's probably not changing any time. At present, it's also problematic just because units good at hitting Hawk's Eye easily hit for 150+ HP on top of Poison & Oil. So, even if both those things were nerfed, I'd probably still want Poison to leave, if only because of Poison Bow and my own proposal to replace Wiznaibus.

12. Cover Fire: It's still seems way too swing-y being able to go from 40~ to 240~ on the same unit. I'm really not sure what to do with/about it though. It's not overly problematic like some things, but it seems kinda...dumb. I mean, weren't you the one with the "Patch Me" team? I thought you built that to show off that Cover Fire still needs fine-tuning?

13. Monk skills: No, I meant "why are the elements switched around from what Raven initially suggested?" Or, rather, since I was around for why you changed those things, I should say "I'm still not sure we should be changing these around just as we're giving them elements". This is mostly because we're not sure about Thief Hat still, but also partly because I'm not sure I agree with the distributions even if I'd be all for a Water elemental linear attack "normally". As for Spin Fist, I get why it needs to cost something with that change suppose; I just don't recall seeing it discussed. I actually thought of another proposal with regards to Punch Art/Martial Arts, but that can wait.

14. Mushin & Misogi: I guess we can try Mushin out at only 50 JP then.



Time to quote the hell out of things, though there are fewer I "need" than I thought:

Quote from: Dokurider on May 31, 2013, 09:06:15 pm
If (and it needs to be done absolutely) Berserk loses it's [sic] infinite duration, then Salty Rage and Genji Helmet needs to become Always: Berserk with a possible Blind Immunity.

Would it be a problem to change Death's Formula to a Nether Formula? That way, it can be used to bust up tanks.

In addition to Balance being changed to Yin Yang Magic, it should also gain additional +CT.

Cursed Ring should also lose Null: Holy, because forcing Holy weapon users to pack Consecrate is a waste. While this isn't too problematic for Excalibur and Silver Bow, Holy Spear has to resort to Jump or their Secondaries to attack Cursed Units.

Lancers need Robes back. Period.

I think the Ultimus Bow (and the Mythril Bow too) could use a single WP point drop so that not only are the other bows a little more viable, but so can the crossbows.


I concur with all of this.

Otherwise, I'm not sure that giving Holy Spear the ability to proc Cyclops would be that much better since Lancers still have piss poor MA. It would definitely better though, so....


Quote from: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 05:49:15 am
I'm not sure how everyone feels about my proposal about dropping Ultimus Bow down a WP, perhaps hesitance? I primarily propose it because Ultimus Bow and it's partner in crime, Kagesougi have made Crossbows, especially Gastrafitis go to the wayside. So I came up with an alternate solution: Make Gastrafitis literally Kagesougi: The Weapon.

Gastrafitis: 14 WP - Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Don't Move, Forced Two Hands

(Curious how it's basically combining the other crossbow's procs)
Combined with Kagesougi's MP increase, I think Gastrafitis should see some use again.


I'd be fine with this. I'm guessing the proc rate would be 50%, correct?

To that end, I have to ask: Are people fine with Poison Bow becoming 10 WP for the sake of Silencer? Because while Silencer does need to become 12 WP, especially if Silence becomes finite, Poison Bow with 10 WP seems...lackluster, especially if Hawk's Eye gets to keep the ability to inflict guaranteed Poison (alongside guaranteed hits and Oil).


Quote from: Dokurider on June 02, 2013, 05:49:15 am
My final item for tonight is concerning Genji Armor. Simply put, it's HP is too low. It loses out to Robes + Iron Boots, which alone grants a higher HP total, making the point of giving Genji Armor low HP in the first place moot. I think it needs to be more competitive with Robes by giving it at least 70-80 HP and possibly 10 more MP.

inb4 doku's gone mad


This seems fine since while Genji Armor is obviously filler due to the current extremely limited Item Attribute space, it might as well be made to be at least potentially useful filler, especially since it's competing with a more readily usable item that all classes can equip. I seriously think only like two teams have ever tried to even use Genji Armor in all this time, so it really needs a huge boost, especially if Ragnarok & Save the Queen are becoming additional competition one of the few classes that can use it.


Quote from: CT5Holy on June 02, 2013, 03:45:20 pmI'm not sure Bloody Strings needs the WP nerf. People aren't using it. Also not 2Hable like Blood Sword, but it does have range. hmm. Actually, the damage output is very comparable to a 2H Blood Sword (15 MA Bard with AUP compared to ~12 PA something with 2H Blood Sword). I dunno, just feels like another unnecessary change, and the WP nerf makes it even more unlikely for it to see use.


It needs it for the sake of the other two Harps actually seeing real use potentially right now it easily out-damages them due to how absorb (stupidly) works. Bloody Strings was being used a lot until people realized how stupid Spellguns still were and then Cursed Ring became really popular as well and it's basically anathema to using Bloody Strings (or Blood Sword), especially since Consecrate and Seal Evil are overly expensive, so....

Also, I'd say Bloody Strings are better than Blood Sword, even a Two-Handed Blood Sword, since you have range, more power from the go and can easily slap on Concentrate to a Bard with Bloody Strings. Meanwhile you have to choose between Concentrate and Two Hands (or Equip Light Blades) with Blood Sword as well as try to get range to even manage to land a hit in the first place.


Quote from: reinoe on June 05, 2013, 05:01:04 am
How would Immune:Critical work?  I'm asking this in all sincerity.  Isn't "status:critical" a condition where your HP gets low?  Would "Immune:Critical" actually keep your HP above a certain threshold?


No to the HP threshold. IIRC, being Immune: Critical would just prevent the A.I. from going into Critical at all even when it hits that HP threshold, meaning they'd continue attacking even when they were on the verge of death. That is why I primarily oppose the Immune: Critical suggestion, because while I can understand what Raven is getting at, dual Phoenix Blade is already too good at being a damage sponge that eats up the enemies turns even when it's just fleeing. So it getting to want to attack every time it gets up as well just seems too much.

(Also, they'd become immune to Execute and that's terrible.)

Of course, I'm still increasingly of the opinion that Phoenix Blade shouldn't even be around, so I'm admittedly biased.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 05, 2013, 12:57:00 pm
Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 11:16:04 amEldritch Staff/Healing Staff: I can understand being accused of that version being overpowered, but I'm really not understanding why your version ONLY has Strengthen: Dark I guess. Why does it not still have Strengthen: Holy, especially since no other Two Swords-compatible weapon can do that? Also, I'm guessing you came up with "Eldritch Staff", right?


To avoid synergy with the spell Holy.  And yes, I came up with the name.  Thought it was fitting, given that it boosts dark, yet heals on hit.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 11:16:04 am
3. Wizard Staff: ... Really, the only thing that losing Wizard Staff would actually mean is that you can't have attack Priests


We could have attack Time Mages as well depending on what we do with them. 

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 11:16:04 am
5. Air Knife: ... That said, if that's the case, then shouldn't Orichalcum be boosted to 13 WP as well since otherwise it's "inferior" to Katar too, especially when Two Handed.


Orichalcum is used to boost MA, though.  It's not supposed to compete with Katar.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 11:16:04 am
6. Throwing Knife: Personally, I think even with 12 WP, that its proc probably won't need to be lowered, especially since unlike the other Knives it can't even be used with Counter due to its range. Also personally though, I thought that only boosting it to 11 WP would be fine, but if people want to go with 12 WP, then I doubt anything will end up broken.


Well, as long as the proc rate isn't touched, I won't object.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 11:16:04 am
12. Cover Fire: ... weren't you the one with the "Patch Me" team? I thought you built that to show off that Cover Fire still needs fine-tuning?


Patch Me has... well, been patched.  I published it when Cover Fire was 1~3.  The team is less effective now.

Quote from: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 11:16:04 am
13. Monk skills: No, I meant "why are the elements switched around from what Raven initially suggested?


Ah, naluhodo.  Thief Hat doesn't enter into the decision.  I reason that if an elemental skill ignores evasion, its element should be Earth.  If the change conflicts with equipment for whatever reason, that equipment can be adjusted.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 05, 2013, 03:11:04 pm
Phoenix Blade should definitely get Immune: Critical! It's a much needed buff IMO, because currently, someone with Phoenix Blade will get up, then run away and do nothing, as per usual of units in Critical. Assuming these units have Move-HP UP/Regen so they are out of Critical -> will re-enter the fray, that's like 2 wasted turns from the Phoenix Blade user, who's turns are precious enough already given Always: Slow. Also, no one is abusing Phoenix Blade in the slightest - I think teams with Phoenix Blade are at a lower win rate than teams without, and teams with 2x Phoenix Blade are doing the worst, contrary to what you think is happening, The Damned.

Crossbows: How about +2 WP to all of them (except Gastrafitis)? So Bow Gun at 10 WP, status proc Xbows at 12 WP, Gastrafitis at 16 WP. Crossbows overall seem rather meh.

Hawk's Eye: no, 12 MP + change to Oil should be more than enough to make it 'fair.' I acknowledge that Hawk's Eye is good, but it's not the problem The Damned is making it out to be. Remember, Poison is not that scary, and since Oil is really what's pushing Hawk's Eye over the top, let's find a way to tone down Oil.
Also remember that Archers have a subpar MP pool, and not all Hats/Clothes are receiving MP boosts. Archers will probably have an average of 10 more MP, which come from the elemental absorb clothes.

Speaking of Oil, is there a way to make it so Oil makes you one 'tier' worse in terms of elemental resistance? So if a unit had Oil and Absorbed an element, that unit would now Null the element, and Null -> Half, Half -> Normal, Normal -> Weak? I agree with Gaignun that Oil overriding elemental weakness is problematic, but if this were possible, then elemental resistance would still be effective, but Oil also wouldn't be completely shafted.

Blocking Faith/Innocent (Damned's proposed change to Jade Armlet) feels unnecessary since only one item applies Faith (Muramasa), and only one item Innocent (Gokuu Rod). Neither of those weapons are used much (certainly not Gokuu Rod, Muramasa is used occasionally). Randomly hosing those strategies seems silly, and Slow is much more relevant than Faith/Innocent.

Bloody Strings nerf to incentivize use of other Harps: How about... raising proc rates of the other harps to 50%? 50% Stop proc sounds pretty awesome to me.
Actually, the real issue is, no one's using Harps in general. Bloody Strings was never used a lot. People are using Bards as spellcasters/Draw Out cause of their awesome MA. All of these builds default to Rune Blade for the extra MA, which frees up at least one equipment slot for survivability purposes. So perhaps in addition to the 50% procs on Ramia and Fairy Harp, Bards can no longer equip swords? (I think at least 50% proc rate should happen though)

Nether formula for Death sounds good.

Crystal Shield: How about we give it some immunity to statuses instead of/in addition to Neutral: All Elements?

Damned: Cover Fire has been fine once it became 1-6, which was a long while ago. It's fine because of how swingy it is. When Cover Fire was 1-3, you consistently had very high damage output, and that was the source of the problem.

Remember, most spears have +1 Speed because Lancers used to have 9 Speed. They got bumped down to 8 SP for Jump, and the best spears for jumping, Dragon Whisker and Oberisk, do not give +1 Speed. This change made people who used Jump happy, while keeping people who liked 9 SP lancers happy. I got sidetracked, this was just meant to say that the spears don't need to lose +1 Speed >_>
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 07:03:39 pm
(*yawns as he just wakes up* Damn it, I was supposed to be editing video....)

I'm not really going to both using quotations this time since it's only two people. I'll respond to the stuff that I'm relatively apathetic about first:


1. Cover Fire: Fine. I was gone for a while last year and when I left, Cover Fire was...stupid. I thought the same applied when I returned, though it seems like people are fine with the current change; it just needs to be properly reflected in the Master Guide like some other things do.


2. Innocent & Faith on an Accessory: Okay, that's fine. I was merely raising the question again since we talking about accessories and when I mentioned it months ago, a couple of people showed interest but it was never talked about. Even if those strategies are rare, I merely figured that blocking them needed to be more than just one item, but I already got that with the change to the Headband with the most HP, so....


3. Spears keeping +1 Sp: Very well. Just something else I was throwing out there.


4. Healing Staff boosting Holy: I'm...not sure why this is a problem since even with its needed nerf, Golden Hairpin is going to be boosting Holy. Also, Holy itself should probably be nerfed at least a bit in power and maybe speed as well if we're trying to make Flare more usable and White Magick is getting a bunch of other buffs already. Considering Healing Staff is probably mainly going to be used by Priest anyway....


5. Attack Time Mages: Well, yeah, it ends up depending on what we do with them, but I honestly still don't see how wasting one whole item space on something they can do equally well with another item in the same set (read: Gold Staff) is all that necessary. Unless by "attack", you're also counting magick. Even then, though, I still say C Bag is more than fine there if that's the case. If you're not building your spell-caster with HP and/or evasion, then you probably don't want them going in to physically attack anyway, even if the A.I. can still be a bit stupid about Bags (and, hell, any non-healing, non-distance weapon). I just don't see the point of wasting a space we could actually be using for so much more with even if, yeah, it's not "broken" or anything; it's just redundant as hell and has been ever since Rods were switched to go by MA.


6. Dual Phoenix Blade: What? If I had to guess, then teams with it are now only doing "the worst" because it's become apparent how busted Quickening is and how powerful currently is Cursed Ring and how utterly broken they are together. Given that basically obviates Phoenix Blade and is even more accesible...yeah. Sure, Phoenix Blade wasn't exactly explosive in use before the plague of Undeath descended upon ARENA, but that weapon doesn't suck by any means and basically any time Dual Phoenix Blade showed up, half of the watchers rolled their eyes as the enemy A.I. became even dumber than usual.

Like I said before, I've understood what the point of Immune: Critical was as soon as Raven said; I just didn't and don't agree. Even ignoring my distaste for the weapon, current Phoenix Blade already disadvantages the enemy enough since they tend to waste turns focusing on the "always going to get back up" unit anyway. Granted, Quickening is also part of this problem, but I'm just...weary giving one of the weapons with the most WP (by "necessity") the opportunity for free (back-)attacks; the A.I. is kinda blind to resurrection unless it's immediately about to happen, as I'm sure everyone has seen with Cursed Ring. At the very least, can we decrease Phoenix Blade's W-EV a bit if we're giving it Immune: Critical? This would a) help Parry Edge and b) make it (slightly) less annoying in general.


7. Crossbows getting +2 WP: I'm not really comfortable giving Bow Gun any more power, at least without its Armor Break ability already working to see how well it does. So let's wait on that one. The others one getting to 12 WP. Eh...maybe. I'm pretty apathetic actually. I just feel like them all being the same power just means that Silencer is going to continue not getting used, but increasing it even more above the others would start stepping on Gastraphetes, especially if Gastraphetes was changed to what Dokurider suggested. Also, giving Crossbows more power also makes me weary because of Hawk's Eye, as "mediocre" as all them save for Hunting Bow and maybe Gastraphetes are.


8. Bards losing Swords & other Harps getting 50%: I'd be fine with both of those things, especially since I find Draw Out still rather...annoying; not like I haven't been guilty of using Rune Blade though. I'd still think that Bloody Strings would need to decrease a bit in power to 10 or even just 11 WP though given the way absorb currently works. Of course, it's question of would everyone else be fine with it....


9. Hawk's Eye: I agree about the Oil part, but I obviously disagree about the Poison aspect, especially since I tend to use mages. Still, with Cure becoming instant at least, if Oil became less...extreme, the bows Dokurider talked about lost a bit of power and maybe Poison (& Regen) got their CT lessened somewhat, then Hawk's Eye would definitely be fine. As it is now though, even with 12 MP, it seem like it will be still kinda be too good even with Archers probably maintaining crap MP given all it can do.


10. Oil in general: I'd be up for changing Oil to that and I assume it's possible just because it's basically the same thing as a status that formerdeathcorps was apparently thinking about for his own patch. Of course, I'm not sure how much of a pain in the ass it would be to code correctly, especially since FFMaster was finding problems with his Oil coding lately and I still know jack about coding, so I'm not going to pretend like that's an easy solution even if it's probably a preferable one.

Still, it has to be asked: Would that mean that Oil would still be canceled on hit? Similarly, would that mean that Holy & Dark would still not be compatible with Oil (given that Demi 2 issue)?


11. Crystal Shield being Immune: [Something]: That would be good, maybe. But it's going to be difficult for people to agree on what it should block, much less if it should still have Neutral All Elements and much, much less what its new stats should be.


When it comes to Punch Art/Martial Arts, I've "realized" that Stigma Magic should probably cost 150 JP and Revive should probably cost 250 JP. Considering that Stigma Magic is back to being an AoE 1 instant Esuna, there's no way it should be as cheap as 100 JP, especially if Heal is 150 JP and that only hits one person. Similarly, Revive isn't anywhere full revive like Raise 2 and is vertically challenged, so I'm not sure why it costs 300 JP; even the AoE revive of Fairy doesn't cost that much. Changing both of them would still keep the trio of Stigma Magic, Chakra & Revive at 600 JP for people who want to buy all three as well.

(I thought about this when I suggesting that Misogi probably needs to be 100 JP, especially we're changing Monk anyway.... For the record, I wouldn't mind Heal's JP getting decreased even if it comes to cancel Oil, though I think it would be fair as it is so long as Stigma Magic cost the same.)


P.S. I'm still thinking about Heaven's Cloud, Dokurider.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Ecthel on June 05, 2013, 09:28:46 pm
What about changing Hawk Eye's damage formula, or keeping it but splitting off Oil + Poison into another skill? A big issue with it is that the unit is doing comparable damage to decent PA attacks, but also going more often (after the slower mages who benefit from oil, as well) and applying debuffs. Maybe one skill based on SP*WP and another, weaker one for the debuffs? If the status part got split off into its own spell Hawk's Eye could even get a damage increase.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 05, 2013, 09:46:05 pm
In previous versions of Arena, there used to be two skills doing exactly what you propose. The skills weren't that strong on their own. People definitely used the skill that added Oil and Poison, too, and it never did much. Oil also got buffed this latest version, since it affects six elements instead of just Fire. That said, I still don't think splitting Hawk's Eye back into those component skills is the right answer.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 05, 2013, 10:18:05 pm
(Yeah, splitting Hawk's Eye up or having it go back to doing no damage isn't the solution.)

A large part of the reason I want it to lose Poison is because Poison Bow otherwise isn't going to see any use still unless its WP gets boosted absurdly, which then screws over Gastraphetes unless that gets its WP boosted absurdly.

Additionally, I still promote replacing Wiznaibus with "Dirty Dance", which would still be a source of adding All or Nothing Poison & Oil (at 50%), just without the already above average damage and 100% hit-rate output.

I can understand that people might not agree with or might just have different opinions in general, but even if Oil somehow gets made less extreme, Hawk's Eye having Poison still seems...a bit much.

Problematic EDIT: On top of meaning "solution" instead of "problem", the syntax of the second non-parenthetical paragraph was really muddy. That's been cleared up.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 05, 2013, 10:48:35 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on June 05, 2013, 03:11:04 pm
Speaking of Oil, is there a way to make it so Oil makes you one 'tier' worse in terms of elemental resistance? So if a unit had Oil and Absorbed an element, that unit would now Null the element, and Null -> Half, Half -> Normal, Normal -> Weak? I agree with Gaignun that Oil overriding elemental weakness is problematic, but if this were possible, then elemental resistance would still be effective, but Oil also wouldn't be completely shafted.


No idea here, since I've never looked at FFT's code, but from my knowledge of programming, I'd say this is tricky.  It sounds like a bunch of conditionals will be required in the code (e.g. If "Null: Fire", then replace with "Half: Fire"; if "Half: Fire", then replace with "Normal: Fire", and so on.)

Two easier ways of fixing Oil could be:

The first option is the better of the two (in my opinion), but the second option should require nothing more than a change of constant in the code, so it is easier to implement.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 06, 2013, 04:52:08 am
QuoteP.S. I'm still thinking about Heaven's Cloud, Dokurider.

It's really as simple as deciding whether Draw Out deserves a Friendly AoE. With Asura no longer friendly, it and Kotetsu are the Absorption Draw Outs. It would be easy to give Friendly Fire to Heaven's Cloud. Leaving Heaven's Cloud as is would make it too similar to Asura at best, a losing proposition. It also goes against the implicit design of Draw Out, which was to make every Draw Out distinct, and no, it's 20% proc doesn't do enough to make it stand out.

I don't think their anything wrong with Friendly AoE in Draw Out, and Heaven's Cloud isn't doing anything important right now, so put them together and get a good skill. I think it should keep it's Slow proc, as I only suggested it to make it a better Absorption skill, but that's moot if it can be friendly now. It wouldn't be the end of the world if everyone felt it had to go, but I don't think it should.

I know you don't think very highly of Draw Out thanks to it's constant presence, but leaving Heaven's Cloud in the dust as some attempt to address a perceived skill set usage issue (which is more of a fault with Masamune/Murasame than anything) is just awful design philosophy.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 05, 2013, 10:48:35 pm
No idea here, since I've never looked at FFT's code, but from my knowledge of programming, I'd say this is tricky.  It sounds like a bunch of conditionals will be required in the code (e.g. If "Null: Fire", then replace with "Half: Fire"; if "Half: Fire", then replace with "Normal: Fire", and so on.)

Two easier ways of fixing Oil could be:

  • Simply have it add the "Weak" flag

  • Reduce the elemental weakness modifier from 2x to 1.5x


The first option is the better of the two (in my opinion), but the second option should require nothing more than a change of constant in the code, so it is easier to implement.


Agreed, if it can't be done reasonable (or at all, which is highly unlikely, but it does sound like a lot of work), a Plan B would be needed, and I think Option 1 sounds best.

QuoteBloody Strings


The reason why Bloody Strings are getting nerfed is because it just shouldn't be at the same WP as the other Harps because Drain multiplies its offensive advantage to simply being greater than either one of the harps, and even arguably Blood Sword. It gets even worse: when paired with Magic Song, its drain effect just outright runs away. I have no doubt that the other harps are good and have their uses, but the Bloody Strings is simply better because it has a much stronger effect. And yes it is actually used quite a bit, it's just been a while since we've seen an orthodox bard. They are probably still out there, they just aren't getting recorded. Maybe it doesn't need to be nerfed all the way to 8 WP, but it does need a WP decrease.

Increasing the Harp procs to 50% would make locking down entire teams way too easy. Don't forget this can be used in pairs. They are that low for a reason. Maybe they can go up to 33% to make them easier to for Bards to bank on.

QuotePhoenix Blade


Immune: Critical isn't that important anymore thanks to the Berserk Items becoming Always. If you want your Phoenix Blader attacking upon Revival, just slap that on and try to make the audience's eyes roll out of their sockets.

Quote11. Crystal Shield being Immune: [Something]: That would be good, maybe. But it's going to be difficult for people to agree on what it should block, much less if it should still have Neutral All Elements and much, much less what its new stats should be.


Petrify + Frog immunity? Feel free to add Stop and/or Sleep immunity.

Let us not forget about CT5's idea of a reflect shield, which I'm hesitant to support because I don't know how increased Reflect access will effect the game, for good or worse (leaning toward worse here).

QuoteBards losing Swords


MA Stacking on Bards will not end with the loss of Swords. They'll just promptly switch to C Bags and tough out the loss of a good melee. I will say this though, Bards and Dancers don't have to be perfectly symmetrical. I know it triggers your collective OCDs, but try to get over it and really take a look at what both classes actually need. That's all I'll elaborate about the subject for now.

QuoteHoly Spear


Yeah Lancers have terrible MA, but then again, only White Staff can get into the hands of a unit with decent MA and it procs Dia. They are supposed to be a way of boosting damage output without boosting WP or adding +stats, which can be very unbalancing. Holy Spear procs Holy Breath 50% of the time and I don't see Cyclops warranting a lower output, so it actually will increase the weapons' output.

QuoteBow Guns


Speaking of Bow Gun, thank god it's proc didn't work this version, because mark my words, it would have been the most powerful gun of all. It's basically Mighty Sword: The Crossbow. Shieldrender, while losing your shield sucks, isn't absolutely essential to a unit's function most of the time. Hell, many units don't even carry shield, that just means they get double hammered by a Double Handed sword. Meanwhile Bow Gun not only does exactly that, but it's low damage gets a relative boost thanks to the usually significant loss of HP, so those double shots are more significant. It just needs to go back to the drawing board.

QuoteGiraffe Gun


As for Gastro Feeties, whatever proc rate Kagesougi has, it should have that too; it should be as close as possible to being Kagesougi.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 07, 2013, 01:13:26 am
(So, I've thought about, fallen asleep like the indolent bastard I am and thought about it some more. Need more time to think about the Shield though.)

Again, no quotations because I'm lazy:


1. Asura, Heaven's Cloud and, I guess, Koutetsu: Having thought about it, I think I've reached a "solution" or at least an opinion: Asura remains enemy-only since Fire already has the most AoE to absorb & Koutetsu is already also absorbed by Black Costume still; I really don't remember people agreeing that Asura should no longer be enemy-only. Meanwhile, Koutetsu remains able to hit allies alike since its huge-ass AoE and being instant necessitates having to take Dark element affinity into account on the team or accidentally killing teammates (like with Chirijiraden). As for Heaven's Cloud, I guess I'm now of the opinion it should lose Slow as well and instead become the only offensive Draw Out that ignores M-EV (and thus all evasion); this even if it has to lose some power.

That seems preferably to making Fire absorb more powerful and Wind absorb even weaker because without Heaven's Cloud, even as much as it is currently underwhelming, the only AoE ability Wind is left without side of [Whatever] Cross is Tornado. I'd rather not have Wind absorb start to creep into oblivion and become like Water absorb before my nagging caused Water to get some Black Magick. There's unfortunately no room for Aero either on any class, so....


2. Oil: Of the two easier solutions, I'd presently rather go with the first, if only because the second solution is hampered by some problems that I've noticed with FFMaster's hack and I'm sure he's probably noticed. The main problem is that elemental weapon strikes are enhanced but don't cause Oil to go away unless, of course, they kill the unit since we've made it so that Dead cancels Oil.


3. Harps: The other harps are already 33%, which is that's part of the problem. I agree that 50% is probably too much, but I honestly have no idea what else to do if people don't want to decrease Bloody Strings even only to 10 WP, much less 9 or even 8 WP. Increasing the WP of the other Harps just seems like it would cause more problems than it solves, especially since Harps currently by pure MA now, unlike Books/Tomes with their (still) mixed stats. So...yeah. It seems like all the only changes include Bloody String taking some necessary hit in power (and Magic Song going back to 50%), but if people don't even want to do that....


4. Phoenix Blade and Always: Berserk: I agree, though I am of course admittedly against Phoenix Blade getting Critical. But...yeah, if Salty Rage and Genji Helmet become Always: Berserk, then there's really no excuse for Phoenix Blade to get Immune: Critical with Move-HP Up already existing and Regen still lasting such long time past death.


5. Bards Losing Swords: Yeah, they can still use C Bag...which I'm fine with. Like my "campaign" against Wizard Staff, I think a class no being able to its cake and eat it too (without any sacrifice) is what we should be. Taking a hit to its normal attack power if it's increasing MA from the get-go seems more than fair and I honestly can't think of any other swords I've seen a Bard use outside of my own Bard trying to use Ice Brand once or twice.


6. Holy Spear getting Cyclops: I'd be off for it even with Lancer's crap MA. I just want to know what FFMaster's solution was/is considering he didn't say anything the last time he was on the forum months ago even though I directly asked him.


7. Bow Gun: Yeah, it doesn't need more power at all. Still, there's a masochistic part of me that wants me to see it stay around with a working proc for at least a sub-version or two, especially given how difficult it was to convince people something as obviously broken as Quickening needed to go. It doesn't help that I can't think of what to do with regards to replacing it, given the Extra Attack Bow Gun never got used and Crossbows as a whole already have problems.


8. Giraffes Are Cool: Yeah, your suggestion for Gastraphetes seems to make the most sense.


*waits for people to comment on his comment about Heal, Stigma Magic & Revive*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 07, 2013, 03:02:57 am
QuoteAsura remains enemy-only since Fire already has the most AoE to absorb & Koutetsu is already also absorbed by Black Costume still; I really don't remember people agreeing that Asura should no longer be enemy-only.

Other than the Fire spells on Black Magic, there are no more Fire AoE spells. There aren't even Fire Weapons currently in the game aside from Asura and Fire Rod (oh and Blaze Gun). I suppose no one outright said they agreed to Asura, but it was in Gaignun's changes and nobody said anything about it, so I assume Silence = Quiet Yes.

QuoteAs for Heaven's Cloud, I guess I'm now of the opinion it should lose Slow as well and instead become the only offensive Draw Out that ignores M-EV (and thus all evasion); this even if it has to lose some power.

That's also a decent suggestion.

QuoteThat seems preferably to making Fire absorb more powerful and Wind absorb even weaker because without Heaven's Cloud, even as much as it is currently underwhelming, the only AoE ability Wind is left without side of [Whatever] Cross is Tornado. I'd rather not have Wind absorb start to creep into oblivion and become like Water absorb before my nagging caused Water to get some Black Magick. There's unfortunately no room for Aero either on any class, so....

Perhaps we can take Wind in a different direction other than setting up more absorb strategies? Maybe instead it can be more like Holy, an offensive element that can be absorbed, but otherwise doesn't really need to be. More independent if you will.

Quote
5. Bards Losing Swords: Yeah, they can still use C Bag...which I'm fine with. Like my "campaign" against Wizard Staff, I think a class no being able to its cake and eat it too (without any sacrifice) is what we should be. Taking a hit to its normal attack power if it's increasing MA from the get-go seems more than fair and I honestly can't think of any other swords I've seen a Bard use outside of my own Bard trying to use Ice Brand once or twice.


Having to take C-Bag will cause melee damage to drop from from 60 damage to 30 max damage on 40 Caster Fury (before target fury), which is a drop in the bucket. It's not really any kind of drawback for that kind of unit. All it does is cut down on potential Bard strategies. That being said, Bards don't seem to be all that capable of using swords in the first place. So if they were replaced by a weapon group with better synergy with Bards...

Quote7. Bow Gun: Yeah, it doesn't need more power at all. Still, there's a masochistic part of me that wants me to see it stay around with a working proc for at least a sub-version or two, especially given how difficult it was to convince people something as obviously broken as Quickening needed to go. It doesn't help that I can't think of what to do with regards to replacing it, given the Extra Attack Bow Gun never got used and Crossbows as a whole already have problems.

If they are going to stick around with the same property, at least have the decency to make it Head Break instead of Armor Break.

Quote*waits for people to comment on his comment about Heal, Stigma Magic & Revive*

Sounds reasonable enough. I can't think of any reason to oppose this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 07, 2013, 03:04:38 am
Quote from: The Damned on June 07, 2013, 01:13:26 am
*waits for people to comment on his comment about Heal, Stigma Magic & Revive*


Quote from: If anything happens with regards to Monks, I'd say that Chakra and Stigma Magic--which is basically instant, multi-target Esuna for free repeatably for a third of the JP--need to become single-target.

I disagree with this.  Physical units should get access to at least one multi-unit, multi-status recover ability.  As for "Heal" It can take a page from Wish and have a range of 3. 

However I'd like both Heal and stigma magic to stop getting rid of Charm.  Charm as an ability is quickly becoming obsolete.  Speaking of charm, Beguile's hit rate needs to be increased by 5-10%.  The spell costs too much mp, and it's too slow for how inaccurate it is.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 07, 2013, 06:46:54 am
(Uh...that's not the Stigma Magic thing I was talking. In fact, that quote is like ancient considering I know it's from before I left more than a year ago.

I was talking about the JP adjustment at the bottom of my post that's at the top of the page. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg189401#msg189401))

That said, people aren't going to go for that type of nerf to Heal or Stigma Magic. Trust me, I asked a while ago--longer ago than even what you quoted--and the above was the compromise to that. Of course, at the time, I had wanted it to be Esuna, rather than Heal, that got said nerf since Basic Skill had even more troubles around the time.

I think people would be fine with Beguile becoming slightly more accurate, but I've been (horribly) wrong before. I also wouldn't be against Heal getting some range like Wish even on top of the Oil curing buff and even though I don't think it's nearly as bad as Wish currently is.

With that addressed:


1. Asura and Fire type: I meant more that Fire element actually has an AoE variety of absorb-able abilities already as it is, even if it's all the same set. This is unlike Wind absorb, which has only Tornado right now since we both agree Heaven's Cloud is meh at best.

Anyway, I guess I'd be fine with Asura becoming non-enemy only if people want more variety, I just don't remember it ever coming up in the first place. Also, for me, it's rather dependent on what happens with Heaven's Cloud, which is still up in the air obviously. (Possible pun not intended.)


2. Heaven's Cloud and Wind element: What did you have in mind? Because as much as I don't see the need to change Monk's elements around at the present, I'm also not that against Gaignun's idea to make Earth as a whole the "unavoidable" element since I think that's something he and I have talked about for. (That or it was Pride. I can't remember. Sorry.)

Similarly, my Heaven Cloud's suggestion is...half-assed at best, so...yeah. I'd be totally for switch Asura and Heaven's Cloud...if Wind got some other AoE to absorb or some clear direction because right now, just like in my own patches, it's kinda of the element "out":

- Fire has AoE in ARENA.
- Ice has lower MP cost in ARENA.
- Lightning has higher damage in AoE in ARENA.
- Water ignores Reflect in ARENA.
- Holy does the highest damage, but tends to single-target in ARENA.
- Dark has percentage based attacks and Death in ARENA.


Wind and Earth don't really have anything, though unavoidable at least makes sense for Earth considering there's Float to counter. Additionally, given that absorb-able Wind is going to be missing something if Heaven Cloud's become enemy-only and isn't getting anything foreseeably back AoE-wise...yeah.

What do you have in mind? I have absolutely nothing currently since I think in the last notes of my patch, Wind just ended up becoming the quickest element because there was nothing else. (That or it went through Reflect, which Water already does in ARENA.)


3. Sword-less Bards: True, but the lessening in damage is still something since you know how the AI will idiotically attack at times even if it has absolutely no incentive and a crap weapon, i.e. a Bag, & Fury. I also don't think that Bards are *that* terrible at using Swords. It's just there's little incentive to use anything PA on them when a) Draw Out is as strong as it is, b) Magic Song is powerful as it is and got buffed in accuracy for no reason and c) they have automatic access to Magic Song.

Again, I currently have no solutions.


4. Bow Gun with Head Break: Probably. Still, like I said, I'm masochistic enough to want to see if it goes should breaks actually be able to work as weapon procs at all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 08, 2013, 05:37:32 am
Black Magick's tier 1 and 2 spells have the same problem as White Magick's tier 2 and 3 Cure: The lower tier with Magic Attack UP is superior in every way to the upper tier with Short Charge (, doubly so since Magic Attack UP is native to the Wizard skill set).  Either the lower tier needs a nerf or the upper tier needs a buff.  With respect to MATK-UP tier 1 and Short-Charge tier 2:



Obviously, the first option is a blow to Wizards, which might not be called for.  We could drop tier 2's CT to 4 instead, but I'm hesitant about doing that.

As for Heaven's Cloud, having it ignore M-EV sounds really broken.  It'd be the only 0-CT AoE skill outside of Geomancy that hits at 100%, and it is a lot harder to boost Geomancy's damage.  Surely there's something else we can do with Heaven's Cloud.

Edit: I've been trying to balance staff damage using the next version of the team design tool.  Achieving balance with sword damage is most appropriate in my mind.  Here's what we have using 1.39 numbers:

2x Platinum Swords
Paladin: 13 PA, 8 SP, 420 HP, (122~171) x 2 damage
Thief: 14 PA, 10 SP, 294 HP, (132~185) x 2 damage
Squire: 15 PA, 8 SP, 315 HP, (141~198) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (8 WP) (current)
Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (119~167) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (9 WP)
Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (134~188) x 2 damage

For fair competition, I propose that Wizard Staff's WP is increased to 9.  To keep things rounded out, I also propose that Rainbow Staff's WP is increased to 11.  That way one Wizard Staff can be freely traded with Rainbow Staff for 2 fewer MA and Oil resistance with no damage penalty.  White Staff's WP should also be increased to 8 to keep pace.

With these changes, staves should be just as attractive as swords for melee.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 08, 2013, 01:11:12 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 08, 2013, 05:37:32 am

Edit: I've been trying to balance staff damage using the next version of the team design tool.  Achieving balance with sword damage is most appropriate in my mind.  Here's what we have using 1.39 numbers:

2x Platinum Swords
Paladin: 13 PA, 8 SP, 420 HP, (122~171) x 2 damage
Thief: 14 PA, 10 SP, 294 HP, (132~185) x 2 damage
Squire: 15 PA, 8 SP, 315 HP, (141~198) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (8 WP) (current)

Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (119~167) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (9 WP)
Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (134~188) x 2 damage

For fair competition, I propose that Wizard Staff's WP is increased to 9.  To keep things rounded out, I also propose that Rainbow Staff's WP is increased to 11.  That way one Wizard Staff can be freely traded with Rainbow Staff for 2 fewer MA and Oil resistance with no damage penalty.  White Staff's WP should also be increased to 8 to keep pace.

With these changes, staves should be just as attractive as swords for melee.

Gaignun, just to follow along with your example I inserted the Oracle into the current design tool to replicate your results.

Right Hand=Wizard Staff
Left Hand=Wizard Staff
Head=Holy Miter
Body=Wizard Outfit
Accessory=Reflect Ring

I had to pimp out Oracle with every MA stacking gear just to get her (and I had to use a female) at 19 MA.  Wheras Paladins, Thieves, and Squires didn't have to utilize every equip slot to obtain 13, 14, or 15 PA.  Doesn't this suggest that for Melee mages to be able to do equivalent damage they actually need Staves to have even higher Power than what you suggest?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 08, 2013, 01:33:28 pm
Are you sure?  The Paladin, Thief, and Squire are nearly maximized, too (Barbuta/Twist Headband, Carabini Mail/Power Sleeve, and a +1 PA accessory).  I wouldn't want to boost staff WP any further at any rate, since MA can be effectively applied to support secondaries such as White Magick and Draw Out, whereas PA cannot.  That's the benefit of using a slow, squishy mage as a melee unit, I suppose.

Edit: I've also been calculating rod damage.  Fire, Ice, and Thunder Rods are pretty scary.

2x Fire Rod (with Fire 2 buff)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (155~218) damage [381~534 total damage]

2x Fire Rod (current)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (141~198) damage [367~514 total damage]

Ice and Thunder Rods are progressively weaker, respectively.

These are easily the most damaging dual-wieldable weapons in the game, even now in 1.38d.  With 70 Brave and Faith, the oracle is highly susceptible to attacks that ignore evasion (e.g. guns, 1.39 Titan, etc.), but still!  One way to prevent this damage is to forbid these rods from being dual-wielded.  They'll still be viable as two-handable weapons, but the average spell proc rate will drop by 0.5, thereby reducing the average total damage by 80~110.

On a related note, the Ice and Thunder Rods need their WP boosted by 1 to be comparable to Fire Rod.

Finally:

Quote from: DokuriderI'm not sure how everyone feels about my proposal about dropping Ultimus Bow down a WP, perhaps hesitance?


Lowering Mythril Bow's and Ultimus Bow's WP by 1 is a good idea.  Kibaku Fuda is appearing to be pretty broken with its Dmg_B(SP*WP) formula. (e.g. A 14 SP archer deals around 190~260 damage using Kibaku Fuda with a Mythril Bow and Attack UP.  That is too high for what is supposed to be a debuffing skill.)  However, lowering Mythril Bow's WP by 1 only reduces Kibaku Fuda's damage by around 10 points.  For this reason, we probably need to settle on a new formula.  Is it possible to incorporate WP in the Geomancy formula [e.g. SP*(WP+Y)/2]?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 08, 2013, 08:23:56 pm
If Poison and regen stick around even after death why not have also have blind and silence stick  around too, it would give a necessary buff imo for those statuses, especially if you're using night killer, nameless dance, bizen boat (katana), etc.

I'm fine with what ever else as long as its fairly balanced
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 09, 2013, 04:10:24 pm
If giving Crystal shield "Immune:oil" isn't enough to make it worthwhile what about this...

"Immune:oil"
"initial:Reflect"

The problem then is that it would give Paladins and Lancers access to two Reflect abilities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on June 09, 2013, 11:32:21 pm
Quote from: Barren on June 08, 2013, 08:23:56 pm
If Poison and regen stick around even after death why not have also have blind and silence stick  around too, it would give a necessary buff imo for those statuses, especially if you're using night killer, nameless dance, bizen boat (katana), etc.

I'm fine with what ever else as long as its fairly balanced
I have to disagree with this. The problem is that Blind and Silence are too much off a crippling status (imo). You can get by with Poison, but Blind and Silence can make a unit useless unless they can cure it quickly or have the status protection.

Quote from: reinoe on June 09, 2013, 04:10:24 pm
If giving Crystal shield "Immune:oil" isn't enough to make it worthwhile what about this...

"Immune:oil"
"initial:Reflect"

The problem then is that it would give Paladins and Lancers access to two Reflect abilities.
Reflect Ring and Reflect Mail already give Reflect, so I don't think we need another item that gives Reflect. Although, it does make sense since it is a "Crystal" shield. Hmm...

Since Quickening is "dieing", can we give its animation to Focus, or is there already something planned for it?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 10, 2013, 06:00:18 am
Quote from: reinoe on June 09, 2013, 04:10:24 pm
If giving Crystal shield "Immune:oil" isn't enough to make it worthwhile what about this...

"Immune:oil"
"initial:Reflect"

The problem then is that it would give Paladins and Lancers access to two Reflect abilities.


Actually, the real problem is that'll give Unarmored units Reflect Options, like say Cursed Ring units for Raise-Proofing. Even aside from that, that much Reflect can be a problem.

QuoteEdit: I've also been calculating rod damage.  Fire, Ice, and Thunder Rods are pretty scary.

2x Fire Rod (with Fire 2 buff)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (155~218) damage [381~534 total damage]

2x Fire Rod (current)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (141~198) damage [367~514 total damage]

Ice and Thunder Rods are progressively weaker, respectively.

These are easily the most damaging dual-wieldable weapons in the game, even now in 1.38d.  With 70 Brave and Faith, the oracle is highly susceptible to attacks that ignore evasion (e.g. guns, 1.39 Titan, etc.), but still!  One way to prevent this damage is to forbid these rods from being dual-wielded.  They'll still be viable as two-handable weapons, but the average spell proc rate will drop by 0.5, thereby reducing the average total damage by 80~110.

On a related note, the Ice and Thunder Rods need their WP boosted by 1 to be comparable to Fire Rod.

I've yet to see a successful Dual Rod build. I find that these Dual Rod fighters fail because they can't close the distance without significant Move/Speed/HP investment, including my own attempt at chasing the Poison Dragon. I don't see this as a big deal as a result. I've actually rarely gotten success with Death Melee strategies at all except with 2h Katar/Air Knife. That being said, I don't see a problem (other than loss of style points) in making the Elemental Rods and only the Elemental Rods un-Two Sword-able. WP buffs also sound good.

QuoteLowering Mythril Bow's and Ultimus Bow's WP by 1 is a good idea.  Kibaku Fuda is appearing to be pretty broken with its Dmg_B(SP*WP) formula. (e.g. A 14 SP archer deals around 190~260 damage using Kibaku Fuda with a Mythril Bow and Attack UP.  That is too high for what is supposed to be a debuffing skill.)  However, lowering Mythril Bow's WP by 1 only reduces Kibaku Fuda's damage by around 10 points.  For this reason, we probably need to settle on a new formula.  Is it possible to incorporate WP in the Geomancy formula [e.g. SP*(WP+Y)/2]?


Or it can be MA * WP. It doesn't need to deal good damage or be a damage formula immediately relevant to it's native class. It steps on Spellbreaker's toes? Yeah well it's 1 range and nobody uses Spellbreaker in the first place.

QuoteSpellbreaker


Speaking of Spellbreaker, Spellbreaker could use a reworking into a more focused, more efficient skill. It's formula is going nowhere cross class wise because so many other weapons and skills do it's job already. I think a better use of Spellbreaker would be to solely destroy Reraise. See, Reraise can quite often putting a team on the defensive insanely difficult. Wiz's {S1} can often stop offensive pushes that would otherwise put them into survival mode because of that single instance of Reraise. They get up, heal themselves back up and resume fighting. So I think a skill devoted to destroying Reraise would be helpful to an offense.

Spellbreaker: 1 Range 2 Vertical, 0 CT, 0 MP, Cancel: Reraise, Defending, Float, 150 JP, not evadable, MA + 80.

(Defend can also be pretty similar on the right units.)

Not canceling Protect/Shell/Haste/Regen has the AI benefit of stopping the AI from wasting turns getting into a Masamune canceling war and lets it resume normal play afterwards.

QuoteMisogi: Self-targeting, 0 CT, 5 MP, Cancel: Poison, Blind, Silence, Slow, Don't Move, Oil, Faith, 100 JP

This skill has an excellent potential simply because it's self only property makes it very good for offensive AI behavior. That being said, it's still hard to justify a 5 MP price tag in comparison to the other MP free cleasing skills. It should be free to use.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 10, 2013, 07:34:14 pm
Quote from: Barren on June 08, 2013, 08:23:56 pm
If Poison and regen stick around even after death why not have also have blind and silence stick  around too, it would give a necessary buff imo for those statuses, especially if you're using night killer, nameless dance, bizen boat (katana), etc.


My first inclination was to disagree, but, this change would likely shake things up a lot and change the meta (maybe?). I expect status immunity to become very important, for example (yes, I realize that's the most obvious/likely consequence =P). So, it depends on if people want a possibly drastic change in team building (going off status immunity becoming more important, the equipment use frequencies might change, etc).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 10, 2013, 08:07:50 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on June 10, 2013, 06:00:18 am
I've yet to see a successful Dual Rod build... I don't see this as a big deal as a result.


Yeah, that's valid criticism.  It's probably better just to leave it in, then nerf it if it becomes a problem.

Quote from: Dokurider on June 10, 2013, 06:00:18 am
Or [Kibaku Fuda] can be MA * WP.


I want Ninja to deal damage with it, though.  Ninja's MA is so bad that the damage will hardly make up for that gained by regen.  The damage target on my mind is around 100 (average) ~ 150 (optimized).

Edit:  Does anyone mind if we increase Excalibur's WP to 14 or add a spiffy feature like Always: Haste?  Now that Defender's WP is being boosted, we need to do something to Excalibur to keep pace.   This will also make Ragnarok and Save the Queen weaker by comparison, which I think we can all agree will be necessary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 11, 2013, 02:20:26 pm
Always: Haste on Excalibur would be spiffy indeed. I approve.

Piggybacking off of the Geomancy formula idea, how about SP*((PA+Y)/2), if it's easily doable? In other words, replace the MA with SP in the current Geomancy formula. I think the constant would have to be a bit higher though, say PA+~6? I think that gets right around the damage you'd like. Initial calculations put optimized damage as ~140-150, average (on Ninja) would be ~80-90.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 11, 2013, 08:34:28 pm
I'd rather +1 WP for Excalibur thank you very much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 12, 2013, 03:48:54 pm
Well with the tournament coming up, we'll decide once and for all what needs to be changed for 1.39
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 14, 2013, 12:41:17 am
If Speed - 1 is going to be an Item Attribute, then I think it should also be added to Phoenix Blade. I think Phoenix Blade is too effective at burning turns. It basically locks down an enemy for free, for the duration of the battle. With Speed-1, enemies can't get locked down indefinitely anymore.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 15, 2013, 04:20:26 am
Concerning giving Excalibur Haste, Paladins are typically as slow as snails, so the buff would allow them to keep pace with the other classes.  Bear in mind that Paladins do not have native access to Thief Hat or Secret Clothes, so Excalibur will not add more than 2 SP.  On top of that, the Paladin will not be able to be Hasted by skills for additional speed, as Haste will already be applied.

Excalibur would become an amazing weapon, to be sure, so we could dial back a few of its other features to compensate, as we are with Save the Queen and Ragnarok.

Simply adding 1 WP is fine, too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 15, 2013, 05:46:22 am
That sounds reasonable until Equip Heavy Blade comes into the picture. Now you have 12 Speed Thieves running around perma hasted to 15 speed. Generally speaking, no item should be allowed to boost speed by more than 2 speed.

Another idea: Give Masamune (the katana) initial: Regen. That way, you can put in on a unit and your team Masamune (the draw out) user won't waste the first turns giving you Masamune.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 15, 2013, 06:05:55 am
Equip Heavy Blade gives access to Knight Swords?  I didn't notice.  In that case... Yeah, Always: Haste is not a good idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 15, 2013, 10:54:18 am
(Yeah. Equip Heavy Blade has given access to Knight['s] Swords for...a while, like since almost the beginning of ARENA if not the very beginning.)

Well, with that taken care of and my Internet back, I might as well comment on what's been typed since I've been gone even though it's thankfully not as much as I expected. I'll just go backwards since that's easier for me.


1. Boosting Excalibur: Not sure why it really needs a boost since it's always been the best Knight('s) Sword, even after it got nerfed from its absurd initial Absorb incarnation and even after Chaos Blade got buffed twice-over. That said, if people do think it needs a buff, which even with the buffs to the other Knight Swords, I don't think it does, then yeah, +1 WP is the "sane" option. Giving it Always: Haste, as much as it's nice to reference T. G. Cid, is just begging for trouble even before Equip Heavy Blade. Excalibur already strengthens itself still and works with Grand Cross, while Defender, even with its boost, still won't, so...uh, yeah. I think Excalibur will be fine staying as it is going into 1.39 even with the three other Knight Swords becoming usable.

That may just be me though.


2. Boosting Masamune the katana: I actually wouldn't mind that. The only reason I didn't suggest that from the get-go when I made those Katana designs was because I felt Masamune the ability was too powerful--I still do--& could stand to "waste time" even with Masamune the katana equipped; I guess I also thought it felt redundant given how whored out Masamune was and is.

That said, with Dispel getting buffed, Quickening's death making Masamune (like many things) less stupid, Cursed Ring being slightly nerfed and, among other things, an anti-Masamune skill being made up, the Katana would probably be fine with getting Initial: Regen in addition to what it was given in 1.38. It's not like anyone is really using that katana right now, though it has at least seen some use and Katanas lack of use (to Attack) in general is more because Draw Out is just so damn strong that Samurai tend not physically attack, so....

Ultimately, I'm pretty ambivalent here.


3. Kibaku Fuda's damage formula being SP*((PA+Y)/2): Yes, this seem for the best if it's easily possible, which from what little I know of coding, it "should" be. At least half a dozen people now for sure though. Regardless, I've never been a fan of the simple "Stat*X" formulas since those are far more difficult to balance in cases of damage--Hawk's Eye and Draw Out are examples of this. Similarly, if we really want Masamune the ability to stop running so rampant (for at least a while), then the only thing Kibaku Fuda needs to be dependent on to work is MP. Using WP in place of PA in the above formula automatically means two things: Monks basically can't use it without using an Equip [Weapon] Support and that it's vulnerable to Weapon Break since its damage becomes piss-poor without a weapon.


4. Misogi costing 0 MP: Yeah, I'd actually probably be fine with this since Heal and Stigma Magic don't cost MP and Misogi can only hit the self and thus not heal anything "serious". I'd still want Misogi to cost 100 JP though. (Mushin can stay costing a mere 5 MP just because Innocent is the best defense against faith-based magick AND it's instant; it also helps that I don't think it's as limited as Gaignun said even if, yes, the AI probably isn't going to use it freely.)


5. Changing current Spellbreaker: I'm still of the opinion that current Spellbreaker isn't actually bad or anything. This especially since it's both unavoidable and guaranteed both to do damage and to remove the positive statuses it removes despite what the Master Guide says. I will of course admit that with its present formula, it doesn't really belong in Thief considering Thief has piss-poor MA.

Still, I'm not sure what to change it to and while Dokurider's alternative is somewhat intriguing, I actually think that Spellbreaker can win "a war" with Masamune the ability as it is now because it does damage. It's merely that on an actual Thief, it won't ever do good enough damage to justify since even with the most MA stacked gear....

*does the mental calculations*

Hmmm...actually, on a female Thief, with Rune Blade, Holy Miter, Wizard Outfit, Magic Gauntlet and Magic Attack UP, Spellbreaker gets to around 160 damage, which is better than expected, especially for something unavoidable. Still, it could probably be improved in terms of overall formula making it easier for Thief to use, given they'll still have crap MP. This even though I still say a complete overhaul probably isn't needed.


6. Focus's Animation: As far as I know, the plan for it was just to use the exact same animation as Accumulate. I suppose I wouldn't be against giving it Quickening's animation since nothing is likely to use it save maybe one of Ninja's new techniques. This even if having been forced to see Quickening's animation so much this past year has been...irksome.


7. Crystal Shield & Initial: Reflect: ...Yeah, I'm not sure this is "the answer". This even though Dokurider's example about Cursed Ring already exists because of Reflect Mail. I "think" what was suggested earlier about making it a Shield immune to some statuses is ultimately the best. This especially since the only other thing I can think of that isn't out there or overpowered is making it an Earth, Wind and Water version of Kaiser Plate, which seems as if it would be both boring and ineffectual. That, I'm willing to consider a "Mirror Shield" at least.


8. Blind & Silence sticking around after death: That might be okay for Blind, since that still allows the user to at least attack, but Silence's issue is that it utterly shuts down six certain skill sets. While Blind is actually a pain in the ass now even without evasive gear coming into play, it still allows the A.I. to at least attack; this even if that's arguably the problem with the A.I. tending not to heal Blind in the first place. Of course, Silence is the most blocked status in all of ARENA, so....

Regardless, I'm assuming you're suggesting this in accordance with the suggestion of making Blind and Silence have a finite CT alongside Berserk in the first place, correct? Otherwise, Blind and Silence with infinite CT lasting after death is...yeah, no.


9. Lowering Mythril Bow's and Ultimus Bow's WP: Yeah. This needs to happen.


10. Tier 1 Black Magic vs. Tier 2 Black Magic: I'd be up for lowering Tier 1 slightly rather than buffing Tier 2 since I think Tier 1 does too much damage as it is even before comparing it to Tier 2, especially since Fire and Bolt are a bit...absurd in their procs on top of their potential damage. (I'm not kvetching about Bolt [1] adding Don't Act when I did it for Kagesougi since Kagesougi is instant, Kagesougi adds status at 100%, Kagesougi on average hits harder, Kagesougi costs less MP, Kagesougi usually hits twice right away and Bolt [1] having Don't Act somewhat backfires for Lightning absorb teams; Bolt [1] can also backfire in terms of redirects as well.)


Current Rods are probably fine for reasons Dokurider already pointed out. The closest teams have come to having successful dual-wielding Rod users have been through Scholars, which are dying in terms of their Wizard+ stats, and Wizards, who are the second "squishiest" class in all of ARENA. They can do absurd damage via Two Swords, but actually getting close enough to do so without dying or getting knocked into Critical and hitting the target without Concentrate makes it far deadlier on paper than in reality.

I'm still not sure about Heaven's Cloud, mostly because of the "Tornado would be the only absorb-able MA-based Wind element technique if it becomes enemy-only" and because no one else offered any ideas while I was gone. Shrug.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 14, 2013, 12:41:17 am
If Speed - 1 is going to be an Item Attribute, then I think it should also be added to Phoenix Blade. I think Phoenix Blade is too effective at burning turns. It basically locks down an enemy for free, for the duration of the battle. With Speed-1, enemies can't get locked down indefinitely anymore.


Would Speed -1 be in addition to Always: Slow? I'm guessing it would, but I'm really not thinking it would change much since, even with Quickening dying, Sprint Shoes automatically cancels that and Cheer Song cancels that out on the first try.

I wouldn't personally mind it, though, given my dislike of Phoenix Blade.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 15, 2013, 11:34:51 am
Quote from: The Damned on June 15, 2013, 10:54:18 am3. Kibaku Fuda's damage formula being SP*((PA+Y)/2): ... Using WP in place of PA in the above formula automatically means two things: Monks basically can't use it without using an Equip [Weapon] Support and that it's vulnerable to Weapon Break since its damage becomes piss-poor without a weapon.


You're right, but, on the other hand, replacing PA with WP enables non-melee classes to use it well.  It also promotes the use of high-WP weapons that see little use, such as Tactician's Blade, Iron Fan, Monster Dict, and Blaze Gun.

Quote from: The Damned on June 15, 2013, 10:54:18 am
4. Misogi costing 0 MP: Yeah, I'd actually probably be fine with this since Heal and Stigma Magic don't cost MP and Misogi can only hit the self and thus not heal anything "serious".


That's a good point.  I'll drop the MP to 0.

Quote from: The Damned on June 15, 2013, 10:54:18 am
10. Tier 1 Black Magic vs. Tier 2 Black Magic: I'd be up for lowering Tier 1 slightly rather than buffing Tier 2 since I think Tier 1 does too much damage as it is even before comparing it to Tier 2, especially since Fire and Bolt are a bit...absurd in their procs on top of their potential damage.


I'm kind of hesitant about nerfing Wizards, though, given that we finally made them useable for the first time.  They're our glass cannons!


Finally, concerning Thief's Hat, I agree that one of its elemental resistances should be transferred to a different piece of armor.  The element that gets transferred will be indirectly buffed.  Here's a summary of the relevant weapons and skills:

Wind
Weapons: Air Knife, Heaven's Cloud, Spiked Futon, Windslash Bow
Skills: Gale Fist, Silf, Heaven's Cloud, Fuuton, Tornado

Water
Weapons: Coral Sword, Whale Whisker
Skills: Wave Palm, Water (magick), Leviathan, Maelstrom

Earth
Weapons: Koga Knife, Kikuichimoji, Giant Axe, earth-elemental flail
Skills: Clay Fist, Titan, Kikuichimoji, Doton, Earth Dragon, Quake

Heaven's Cloud really needs a buff, since it competes with Kotetsu and Chirijiraden, but the water element (especially Coral Sword and Leviathan) needs a buff as well.  At the same time, I really don't want to buff Air Knife, Fuuton, and Tornado.  Thus, I vote that Thief Hat gives up its water resistance.  If we want to buff Heaven's Cloud while we're at it, we could make it water elemental (after all, clouds are... water... vapour).

As for what the resistance is transferred to, I want to say Secret Clothes, but that will over-represent water resistance in the armour category.  The only other real option is Green Beret, which I'm actually cool with, since Green Beret is losing its place as MP-boosting headgear to Black Hood.  This way, we create new efficient hat-armour combinations:

Thief Hat + [Black Costume, Rubber Costume]
Green Beret + [Black Costume, Santa Outfit]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 15, 2013, 02:17:59 pm
Wizards and Black Magic in general is pretty awesome now; a nerf seems unwarranted to me.

Also, Damned, a few points to note:
1. Bolt 1 procs Don't Move, not Don't Act.
2. Excalibur has not been the best Knight Sword in a looooong time (since it lost Absorb: Holy). I think it might be the worst, honestly. Defender's high WP and DA immunity makes it better, Ragnarok/Save the Queen's Initial: Protect or Shell, combined with almost the same damage output make them better, and Chaos Blade's high WP+Dispel on hit I think also makes it better than Excalibur. Excalibur does have the best damage output, but it's not by enough to make Excalibur outclass the other Knight Swords.

Oh, I had this idea a while back and don't remember if I posted it or not, but what do people think of making Coral Sword proc Suiton instead of Water Ball?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 15, 2013, 03:26:08 pm
(Ugh. I feel like I'm forgetting something I was going to say a week ago before my Internet went out. Meh. Probably nothing important [as per usual].)

So noted about Bolt 1. Not sure why I thought otherwise. Also, Excalibur being the best at damage output kinda makes it the best for me, especially given I didn't say it outright outclassed the other Knight('s) Swords anymore and given that it still definitely see the most use of the Knight Sword.

I'll have to think about Coral Sword, though that would doubtless be a buff.

Anyway, my reply this time should be much shorter. Well, "shorter" for me:


1. Kibaku Fuda's formula: Meh. I guess Monk missing out if WP was concerned wouldn't be too terrible. That said, I'm not really convinced, not just because half of your particular examples are "bad" ones since Blaze Gun and Tactician's Blade see a decent amount of use, even if the latter case is less for actually attacking with it and more for "Go Go Gadget Chirijiraden". Hell, I'd even argue that Monster Dict is perfectly usable for its WP already given my Plastic Knight team used that for Southern Cross; it's just that its proc, Magic Ruin, kinda sucks even for free, at least compared to what the other books proc and especially with having a similar rate to them. Iron Fan's the only really problematic one and that has issues because a) two of the other Poles can do way more damage when Two-Handed, especially Whale Whisker, b) the other two Poles have extremely good procs and c) the MA-boosting Pole, which is the one mages would be concerned with, is also one of the ones that can be used with Two Hands.

Regardless of what high-WP weapons actually see how much use, I'm not really sure trying to make it so that Kibaku Fuda is usable by mages will really work anyway. I mean, I can understand the notation of accessibility, especially since making it so that only one class misses out while six--well, three, really--don't, but that kinda misses a key point: Mages have little reason to ever want to use Ninjutsu secondary anyway.

When you think about, even as a "debuffing" class, Ninjutsu is solely PA driven (as it "should" be, at least in ARENA). As referenced above, three of the mages classes, Wizard, Time Mage and especially Summoner, have abysmal PA. So they automatically have very little use for Ninjutsu as Secondary. This issue of incompatibility increases when you realize about half of Ninjutsu is powered by a lack of Faith, when all mages but Wizard (and, technically, Time Mages due to only Comet) need Faith; given the fact that we just established Wizards (& Time Mages) are horrible users of Ninjutsu...yeah. Furthermore, of the three new techniques being given to Ninjutsu, only one, Misogi, is guaranteed beneficial to mages and Misogi removes Faith, which means no using it with Faith Rod. Even the new Movement for Ninja, Speed +1, is something that tends to cause mage spells to backfire without specific set-ups.

So trying to make sure (three) mage classes can maybe use Kibaku Fuda, while admirable, seems ultimately pointless, especially when Dispel is being buffed to also be an AoE 1 ability. As such, I have to still support the PA-base formula that CT5Holy suggested at present.


2. Nerfing Tier 1 Black Magic: Meh. I can understand you reacting with hesitance given that Wizards or Black Magic still haven't exactly "taken off" despite all they got going into 1.38. You have to consider (further), however, that they're already getting a lot of buffs going into 1.39 merely by Scholar's Wizard+ stats dying, the spellguns no longer going by Faith and Flare getting buffed. Then people agreed rather quickly that Death needed some type of buff, which it's now "definitely" getting in the form of going by Un-Brave and, in a way, Frog is getting buffed as well by becoming more accurate even if it will cost more MP. It wouldn't surprise me if people still wanted to see Poison buffed since it doesn't seem to be switching classes as I would personally want given that I think the key issue with Poison is that it's on the wrong class (unless "we" are doing that MP Poison & MP Regen thing).

So Wizards can probably stand to take slight nerfs to easy access nukes, especially ones that you just admitted were a problem and especially as long as Fire can still cause Oil and Bolt can still cause Don't Act.


3. Heaven's Cloud...is made of Water: I can admit that I see quite a bit of potential merit to this, especially when it comes to Green Beret and Thief Hat. That said, I don't think Leviathan is bad as you say. Again, I'd say the problem lies more with Salamander being able to proc Oil, really, at least or perhaps especially with what present Oil can do. Additionally, I don't think people ever really agreed about the Monk element thing (or Earth-flail for that matter), at least yet.

Most importantly, though, just switching Heaven's Cloud over to Water element doesn't really do anything to make the ability itself any less crappy; it just gives Water a new ability to play with, sort of, while Wind gets screwed over and permanently loses one regardless of how Monk turns out. Heaven's Cloud would still have the problem of Slowing down its allies if it's not enemy-only and if it's enemy-only, then it's not really like Water is getting another thing to play with, at least in terms of absorption; you were perhaps not talking about that considering you mentioned Leviathan, which can't be absorbed by the team using it outside of Counter Magic. I guess Fire element benefits with Asura becoming not enemy-only, but, again, "meh".

Furthermore, that raises the issue of if Heaven's Cloud the katana should remain Wind element even though Heaven's Cloud the ability becomes Water. If not, then Wind loses a weapon as well as an ability, though it could better afford to lose a weapon even if Grand Cross with current Heaven's Cloud is the easiest Wind Grand Cross for Paladin to access.


Shrug. I have a "solution" to the Katana thing if people support switch Heaven's cloud the ability to Water and want to switch the Katana as well. Right now I still am uncomfortable with Wind getting screwing over, however, almost to the point of becoming like how Water was for the longest time. This especially since I, and apparently others, can't think of a solution to that problem (yet).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 15, 2013, 04:41:27 pm
I don't understand how the wind element is getting screwed over if the current Heaven's Cloud is useless to begin with.  Even if wind loses Heaven's Cloud, it still has Silf, Fuuton, and Tornado, all of which are above-average abilities (especially since Fuuton's damage is getting buffed).  It also has Air Knife, which Dokurider demonstrates works well on Thieves.

On the other hand, water weapons and abilities are under-represented (even before supposing that Suiton is scratched.) Leviathan is one of the weaker summons for being 5 CT, having a multiplier of only 8, and having a status proc that doesn't disable; Maelstrom is incredibly niche.

Let me restate that the only case in which I want to make Heaven's Cloud water elemental is if Thief Hat loses "Half: Water".  Thief Hat is what kills Heaven's Cloud in my mind.  As for the Slow proc, well... if absorption is that important, we could always shift it over to Asura.  Mind you, not every Draw Out ability needs to be absorbed.

Quote from: The Damned1. Kibaku Fuda's formula: ...


You're right about the homogeniety.  To be honest, using PA makes the skill harder to use well, but we'll run with it for now.

Quote from: The DamnedMeh. I can understand you reacting with hesitance given that Wizards or Black Magic still haven't exactly "taken off" despite all they got going into 1.38. You have to consider (further), however, that they're already getting a lot of buffs going into 1.39 merely by Scholar's Wizard+ stats dying, the spellguns no longer going by Faith and Flare getting buffed. Then people agreed rather quickly that Death needed some type of buff, which it's now "definitely" getting in the form of going by Un-Brave and, in a way, Frog is getting buffed as well by becoming more accurate even if it will cost more MP. It wouldn't surprise me if people still wanted to see Poison buffed since it doesn't seem to be switching classes as I would personally want given that I think the key issue with Poison is that it's on the wrong class (unless "we" are doing that MP Poison & MP Regen thing).


You surely agree, though, that Frog, Flare, and Death are currently weak?  Frog was nerfed hard after the ailment was made to expire on death; Flare's buff is very minor; lastly, Death is becoming stronger primarily against 40 BrFa teams, but will still be unreliable against anything with a drop of M-EV.  We're lifting the bottom floor here.

Faith Rods are a valid concern with the spellgun change.  A Wizard with 17 MA and a Faith Rod deals 223~313 damage using (buffed) short-charged Bolt 2.  However, this wizard is woefully exposed to magic, particularly Summon Magick and Water, against which Reflect Ring offers no protection.  Besides, I don't think I'm alone in wanting Black Magick to be destructive even without Faith Rods.  Faith Rods are quite niche, after all.

Quote from: The DamnedFurthermore, that raises the issue of if Heaven's Cloud the katana should remain Wind element even though Heaven's Cloud the ability becomes Water. If not, then Wind loses a weapon as well as an ability, though it could better afford to lose a weapon even if Grand Cross with current Heaven's Cloud is the easiest Wind Grand Cross for Paladin to access.


Shifting the weapon to water element would be sensible.  I'm not really concerned.  We could turn Coral Sword into a Wind weapon that procs Kamaitachi, Sandstorm, or Gusty Wind to compensate.

Quote from: The DamnedAdditionally, I don't think people ever really agreed about the Monk element thing (or Earth-flail for that matter), at least yet.


To be honest, I haven't heard comments nor complaints.  In fact, I think only Raven and I voiced approval at the moment (Raven because he proposed it, and me because I'm writing this sentence.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 15, 2013, 04:58:44 pm
Just throwing my noob opinion into the Wind vs Water argument.  Currently there are a few too many defenses against water.  I don't think Heaven's Cloud needs to be changed to Water but I also really don't want Asura getting "slow".  Fire is already strong enough.  But one way that we could make Heaven's Cloud better would be to increase the proc rate.  It rarely gets used and I don't think a 33% rate is going overboard.

I'd like to see Secret Cloths get an elemental defense because it's a terrible piece of equipment that only get's used when all other options are taken first.

Although I think "Frog" is fine enough as a spell.  And speaking of status spells getting improvements I'm even even more convinced that BEGUILE needs improvements.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 15, 2013, 05:59:01 pm
Actually, elemental defenses are nearly even across the board.  Only one element has more defenses than average, and it isn't water:

Fire (4): Flame Shield, Black Costume, White Robe, Defense Armlet
Ice (4): Ice Shield, Santa Outfit, White Robe, Jade Armlet
Thunder (5): Mace of Zeus, Gold Shield, Rubber Costume, White Robe, Rubber Shoes
Wind (4): Thief Hat, Santa Outfit, Magic Ring, Vanish Mantle
Water (4): Thief Hat, Rubber Costume, Defense Ring, Vanish Mantle
Earth (6): Mythril Shield, Thief Hat, Earth Clothes, Feather Boots, Diamond Armlet, Small Mantle
Holy (4): Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring, Cursed Ring, Small Mantle
Dark (3): Black Costume, Cursed Ring, N-Kai Armlet

Would increasing Beguile's Y value from 45 to 50 be enough?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 15, 2013, 06:37:24 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 15, 2013, 05:59:01 pm
Actually, elemental defenses are nearly even across the board.  Only one element has more defenses than average, and it isn't water:

Fire (4): Flame Shield, Black Costume, White Robe, Defense Armlet
Ice (4): Ice Shield, Santa Outfit, White Robe, Jade Armlet
Thunder (5): Mace of Zeus, Gold Shield, Rubber Costume, White Robe, Rubber Shoes
Wind (4): Thief Hat, Santa Outfit, Magic Ring, Vanish Mantle
Water (4): Thief Hat, Rubber Costume, Defense Ring, Vanish Mantle
Earth (6): Mythril Shield, Thief Hat, Earth Clothes, Feather Boots, Diamond Armlet, Small Mantle
Holy (4): Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring, Cursed Ring, Small Mantle
Dark (3): Black Costume, Cursed Ring, N-Kai Armlet

Would increasing Beguile's Y value from 45 to 50 be enough?


Aha.  That post is very informative.  I hadn't realized how little Dark Protection there is considering how much support there is for that element.

Regarding Beguile's Y value, while I personally think it needs to be a 10, considering it can be blocked with low faith or reflection, On a good compat+high faith it's equivalent to steal heart.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 15, 2013, 11:52:59 pm
QuoteSpellbreaker

Thing is, Spellbreaker only removes statuses 50% of the time according to the Master Guide. So it actually doesn't keep pace that well. Can it be safely buffed to being 100%? Yes it can, it's just I think that would be a much more useful skill if it did no damage, and just got rid of Reraise reliably. Why? So you can 'disarm' units of Reraise that have Dragon Spirit or just a nasty reaction in general, or just make it so you can take down tough units with Angel Ring/Chantage without worrying about what they will do when they get up.

QuoteWould Speed -1 be in addition to Always: Slow?

Yes
QuoteI'm guessing it would, but I'm really not thinking it would change much since, even with Quickening dying, Sprint Shoes automatically cancels that and Cheer Song cancels that out on the first try.

True, but now the choice has to be either field a 7 Speed Slowed unit or use up one of your equips to negate it. And while Cheer Song would cancel out the attribute on Phoenix Blade as well as Stone Gun, Cheer Song has an AI-enforced cap on it according to people I've spoken to, so that means that Speed -1 will still matter. Basically it's the difference between 11 speed and 12 speed.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 15, 2013, 05:59:01 pm
Actually, elemental defenses are nearly even across the board.  Only one element has more defenses than average, and it isn't water:

Fire (4): Flame Shield, Black Costume, White Robe, Defense Armlet
Ice (4): Ice Shield, Santa Outfit, White Robe, Jade Armlet
Thunder (5): Mace of Zeus, Gold Shield, Rubber Costume, White Robe, Rubber Shoes
Wind (4): Thief Hat, Santa Outfit, Magic Ring, Vanish Mantle
Water (4): Thief Hat, Rubber Costume, Defense Ring, Vanish Mantle
Earth (6): Mythril Shield, Thief Hat, Earth Clothes, Feather Boots, Diamond Armlet, Small Mantle
Holy (4): Chameleon Robe, Magic Ring, Cursed Ring, Small Mantle
Dark (3): Black Costume, Cursed Ring, N-Kai Armlet


Just a nitpick: Diamond Shield blocks Earth and Holy, and I think Float (the movement) should also factor in too. So that would be 8 defenses against Earth and 5 against Holy.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 am
(Ugh...fucking fatigue....)

Uh, Spellbreaker already cancels status at 100%, Dokurider. That's why I said "despite what the Master Guide says", especially since the Master Guide also says that Spellbreaker can avoided when it actually can't. At all.


1. Winded: I meant in terms of (AoE) absorption, Gaignun. Without Heaven's Cloud, all that can be absorbed AoE-wise with Wind is Tornado and the Crosses, the latter of which are both weapon-based (and thus susceptible to Weapon Break) and not MA-based. Literally every other element has at least two MA-based things that can be absorbed (now), while Wind, which is already the least absorbed element now, would be reduced to one...that's Faith-based...when the only other prominent Wind-absorb (before Monk changes) would a single-target ability that's UnFaith-based.

That is the problem. I agree that Silf is good; Silf is great, actually. It can't be absorbed, however, and the two other "leftover" absorb-able abilities you provide as examples are totally contrary to each other in purpose. There's a reason that my "Gone with the Wind" team didn't bother trying to use Tornado despite the fact that I think the current forms of Tornado and Quake are overpowered (due to their Speed): it's because for me to get use out of Fuuton, I couldn't use Tornado. Heaven's Cloud, as crappy as it is/was, at least gave another MA-based option that didn't undermine Fuuton and wasn't undermined by powering up Fuuton to its fullest. Without that, given that whatever Monk ability it gets isn't going to be replacing it as an AoE ability, much less an MA-based ability...yeah.

Part of the problem with Water element before FFMaster gave into my griping about it not being able to "really" be absorbed was, before the Water spells, the paucity of its abilities (and weapons). That meant that all of its absorption was a) physical and b) stuck to close-range AoE on relatively crappy weapons (when it came to Grand Cross). Wind is certainly doing better in the weapon department already thankfully, even if we make Heaven's Cloud the katana Water element as well (which I think we should if we go with your suggestion, but more on that in a bit). Being stuck with the Crosses as its only other source of AoE, though, also means that units are either going to have to block: Blind and get Blinded a lot if they don't or they're going to have to forego being able heal themselves while healing their allies via Southern Cross.

So I ask that you "forgive" me for being cautious about Wind's future here (even though I think I just thought of a solution given something else you mentioned).


2. Watered Down: Leviathan is also one of only two summons that hits an AoE 3 and is one of only two skills in all of ARENA that hits such a large area without hitting the entire map. Sure, its proc could be "better" or at least more active, but we can change that if we want even though the dispel aspect of it has been useful in the past (due to all the Masamune flying around). Also, with Thief Hat getting a necessary nerf in terms of elemental resistances, Leviathan is getting at least one boost. Additionally, my recalling at least a couple of people besides myself saying that Salamander probably shouldn't add Oil means that if that changes, then Leviathan gets another implicit boost.

As for Maelstrom, you think that's niche? When that ability is basically the reason that Short Circuit and other four-Lore teams are able to curb-stomp people so horribly due to the current version of Defense Ring and Rubber Costume? What. If you're going to accuse any of the current Lore, all-map abilities of being niche at present, then it's Rime Bolt you want since no one has used that for quite a while and, to a lesser extent, Shadow Shade. Hell, Natural Selection was niche and basically never used before I nagged FFMaster into changing it to Maelstrom, which hasn't even been around long to be legitimately called niche. Bio 3 is more niche than Maelstrom. If you honestly think Maelstrom is "niche", then you and I have very different definitions of that word.

Regardless, current Water techniques and Water abilities are more or less fine, and even with Thief Hat, I honestly don't understand why people keep saying it still has such problems; I'm really tempted to make a tournament team for it, though I suspect maybe CT5Holy already has.... Yeah, current Water weapons still kind of suck (for purposes of Cross absorption, at least, since Whale Whisker breaks face), but again, an element having legitimate absorption strategies means it shouldn't be dependent upon the Crosses or weapons, so....


3. Thief Hat and Heaven's Cloud: Yes, I realized that, which is why I agreed it's a good idea. It's just that it kinda screws over Wind element for reasons that I expressed above.

That said, provided Heaven's Cloud the ability does get made into Water, then I propose that Heaven's Cloud the Katana follow suit, especially given Water element would be losing a weapon (a Flail) if people agree about the "Desert Rose" Earth-element flail. Also, since you mentioned Leviathan and I mentioned Salamander...:


- Heaven's Cloud: 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Water Element, 50% Dispel Magic, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Masamune: 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Initial: Haste & Regen, 25%-33% Slow, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Leviathan: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Slow rather than 20% Cancel: Positive Status. (Only counting this as a buff since current Leviathan [and Water, for that matter] can get rid of Faith.)
- Salamander: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Don't Move rather than 20% Add: Oil.


In addition to that, provided we could make Heaven's Cloud merely dispel positive status like the other current Water element techniques and keep it able to hit allies. If we really wanted to make Asura not enemy-only, then do we have to make anything else enemy-only really? And if we do, then perhaps we should make Koutetsu enemy only then, especially with the buff to Demi (and the fact that Koutetsu the Katana sees so little use)?

Other than that, that still leaves Coral Sword as a "problem" given while it would be sensible for it to become Wind, I'd rather not Water lose yet another weapon, even as much as Coral Sword presently is underwhelming. This especially since both Katana and Pole are among the rarer equipment classes get while Swords are practically ubiquitous and every element needs at least one easily accessible item I think even with what I said above. After all, this is currently part of why you almost never see Dark-element Crosses since the only Dark weapons presently are a Katana and a Flail, both of which almost no classes get.

Still, I need to think about how to "improve" Coral Sword since I'm not sure Suiton is it, though again I readily admit that's better than its current Water Ball proc.


4. The "Weakness" of Black Magic: Frog is not and never has been weak. It got weaker, yeah, but it also got made to be, you know, fair in the process. If we're talking about statuses that are made worse since A.I. rarely heals them, then Frog was basically at the top of the pile before it got changed to be canceled on death. Sure, the A.I. would heal it...if the unit was nearby, but considering a Frogged unit's first inclination was and remains to run away from its party, a Frogged unit still tends to remain Frogged for the whole match. This especially since the A.I. isn't de-Frogging itself with Frog for some reason even if it has the spell. Making Frog cancel on death just means that you can't abuse Lore (or Poison) in tandem with Frog and then doubly waste the enemy's turn effortlessly re-killing the still-Frogged unit they try to resurrect, not that Frog magically became "weak".

As such, considering Frog being made even slightly more accurate is to me ultimately a rather moderate buff even with the (necessary) MP increase given that Frog still remains basically a "you probably lose this unit for good" K.O.-esque spell like Petrify. This especially since Maiden's Kiss still sees a lot less purchase than Soft. I mean, Frog, despite its nerf, has basically been the only thing remotely capable of taking down Wiz's currently busted team because of that, so...yeah. Frog is hardly "weak" even if it's weaker.

Flare also isn't weak; it's just currently outclassed by Holy in almost every case, when it shouldn't be. Yes, there's a difference, especially when Flare is at least getting minor buffs and Golden Hairpin is getting nerf it deserves. Additionally, Holy really really should also be getting some minor nerfs in terms of damage and/or speed, especially given all the other buffs the already strong White Magic is getting. So, yeah, Flare isn't weak either, especially since it's the only Black Magic spell (and one of the few Faith-based spells period) not affected by M-EV.

The current Death spell, however, is weak (unless you're Vigilanti or, oddly, Celdia--I swear that's like the only ability she has luck with though). It's like "a Belmont or half-vampire has me in a headlock and using Holy Water" Castlevania Death weak. It's weak for the same reason that Poison is weak and for a reason you already pointed out about Wizards: Black Magick is usually held by glass cannons that are concerned with nuking their enemy as hard and fast as possible. Normal Tier 1 spells (or the Nether spells on teams like Dokurider's "Strangers from the Lake team") already act like more accurate AoE death at present, which has always been the problem really since the elemental spells default to 100% without any M-EV in the way while Death...doesn't. Switching it to UnBrave/UnFury at least gives it far less competition and thus amounts to a sizable buff.

So the only Black Magic spell that is actually going to remain "weak" going into 1.39 is, again, Poison, which is basically anathema to everything Black Magic is trying to accomplish anyway and why I keep saying that spell should just change jobs. This even if we (force FFMaster to) do the MP Regen & MP Poison thing. I mean, really, anything Black Magick can't "nuke" it can just Frog and, going into 1.39, Death even if it has low-Faith.

Given people bought my "Balance should go to Oracle" thing surprisingly, I'd offer that Poison should go to Time Mage given it could use some more (offensive) support, Poison compliments that currently weak Don't Move spell and the A.I. will use Poison. I'd also suggest Wizard should get some composite Bio spell that can add Poison at 20% both as recompense and so that the Bio spells, as busted as Bio 1 and Bio 2 are, don't just completely go "poof".

But...yeah, as far as Black Magic being "weak", not really. It got a bunch of buffs going into 1.38 with only Frog being (necessarily) nerfed and while White Magic still "out-nukes" Flare (and Death) presently, that too should be changing going into 1.39.


5. Monk element shifts: I vaguely recall people being some hesitant about it, even if they haven't "complained" per say. I think my "issue" with it is two-fold beyond the Wind & Water thing: I personally need more time to think about it still and I don't think it's necessarily a good policy, in this case, to think "silence = approval". The latter is admittedly also because I'm just used to silence on a matter being that people either ignored it, missed it, don't care about it or otherwise currently have no opinion on the matter.

So...yeah. I personally still need more time to think about it and while I'm obviously not the only one deciding this, I can't speak for other people one way or the other.


6. Beguile increasing by 10: Yeah, this seems fair really. It shouldn't break anything at least, especially since I keep saying that N-Kai Armlet has always been one of the better accessories even before its buffs just because it blocks something as powerful as Charm.


7. Phoenix Blade having -1 Speed on top of Slow: Yeah, I guess. Like I said, I'm not exactly a fan of Phoenix Blade though, so I'm biased.



All this Water and Wind take makes want to make a team for the tournament that absorbs one. Of course, it will be difficult to prove a point one way or the other between the Faith-based spell guns and Quickening and Cursed Ring....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 16, 2013, 03:41:37 am
Ok, some things I feel obligated to point out:
1. no one uses Cheer Song
2. ~5 teams use Tactician's Blade. That's not "a decent amount of use."
3. People definitely get Maiden's Kiss, since it cures Sleep.

I'm also unsure about Beguile getting +10 to accuracy. It would then become 5% less accurate than Paralyze and Sleep. Assuming 10 MA, 70 Faith caster to 70 Faith target, Beguile accuracy would be 71%. 71%. Methinks that's a little too high for Charm. 70 Faith to 40 Faith would be a more reasonable 51%. It is 5 CT, but it does have 5 range. Yin-Yang Magic benefits a lot from Short Charge, as it makes it more effectively disrupt the enemy team, putting Beguile to 3 CT, which is enough time to catch slower spells, like Raise 2 and Holy.

+5 to Beguile accuracy seems more reasonable. Also, what about lowering Steal Heart's accuracy? It's currently MA+50%, when most Talk Skills are MA+45%, and it's instant, which means it can cancel anything being charged. Additionally, I think everyone agrees that Charm is a devastating status. Steal Heart would still be used at MA+45%, and it would mean Beguile becomes more accurate than Steal Heart on average. 10 MA caster, Beguile hit rate at +5 from current form, 70 Faith to 70 Faith target is 66%, 70 to 40 is 47%. I suppose, most importantly, is that in worst case scenario (not counting Zodiac compats), Beguile would only be barely worse than Steal Heart.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
Quote from: Dokurider on June 15, 2013, 11:52:59 pmDiamond Shield blocks Earth and Holy, and I think Float (the movement) should also factor in too. So that would be 8 defenses against Earth and 5 against Holy.


Forgot about those shields.  Wind, Water, Earth, and Holy should be increased by one.  I was only tallying equipment, so Float was left out.  If we include it, then yeah, Earth has 8.


Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 am
(Ugh...fucking fatigue....)


Go exercise!

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 am1. Winded:


So your requirement for elements is for each to have at least two MA-based, friendly-fire AoE skills?  That's currently untenable.  What about Fire and Holy?  Fire only has one (well, three, but they're all on the same skill set), and Holy has none at all!

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 amAdditionally, my recalling at least a couple of people besides myself saying that Salamander probably shouldn't add Oil means that if that changes, then Leviathan gets another implicit boost.


Nerfing Salamander doesn't boost Leviathan.  It just makes both of them bad.

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 amIf you honestly think Maelstrom is "niche", then you and I have very different definitions of that word.


I use the dictionary's definition of niche: "specialized."  As in, "Maelstrom is niche in that every member of one's party needs to be equipped to resist water."  The scholar usually needs extremely high MA and/or 0 Move to be effective, as well.  Just because it's niche doesn't mean it has to suck.

Anyway, using Maelstrom to discuss the merits of water is moot:  Scholars are losing 2 base MA, and Water absorption is being shifted from Defense Ring to (the fashionably unpopular) Jade Armlet.

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 am
- Heaven's Cloud: 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Water Element, 50% Dispel Magic, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Masamune: 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Initial: Haste & Regen, 25%-33% Slow, Two Hands: Yes, Two Swords: Yes.
- Leviathan: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Slow rather than 20% Cancel: Positive Status. (Only counting this as a buff since current Leviathan [and Water, for that matter] can get rid of Faith.)
- Salamander: Its proc becomes 20% Add: Don't Move rather than 20% Add: Oil.


That nerf to Salamander is unnecessary.  I don't see Salamander as a very exploitable way of applying Oil compared to Short Edge.  Besides, we're still waiting to hear back on how Oil can be nerfed as a status.  The nerf to Oil itself might be enough to assuage your anxiety over Salamander.

As for the others, I don't mind one way or the other.

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 amIf we really wanted to make Asura not enemy-only, then do we have to make anything else enemy-only really?


How about making the Draw Out skill that applies Slow enemy only?  Other than that, nothing.  Seeing how unpopular the current Asura is in comparison to Chirijiraden and Koutetsu, nothing of value is being lost here.

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 am... considering Frog being made even slightly more accurate is to me ultimately a rather moderate buff even with the (necessary) MP increase given that Frog still remains basically a "you probably lose this unit for good" K.O.-esque spell like Petrify.


You typically lose the frog until it dies, and it dies quickly due to its receiving bonus damage, which the AI loves.  Maybe the buff is not necessary and can, thus, be removed.  Although, I do remember hearing somebody (was it Reinoe?) express interest in it.

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 am[Flare and Holy]


I am adamantly against nerfing Holy.  It (and, to a lesser extent, Cyclops) is the only skill the holy element has.  And you're worried about Wind!  The nerf to Golden Hairpin is already going to drop Holy's damage by 20~30 across the board.

Flare's ability to ignore M-EV (and reflect) is huge.  It allows Flare to punch through teams using Abandon -- teams against which Holy falls flat.  Flare would be worse than Holy if it was on White Magick.

Quote from: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 02:35:11 amSo the only Black Magic spell that is actually going to remain "weak" going into 1.39 is, again, Poison, which is basically anathema to everything Black Magic is trying to accomplish anyway and why I keep saying that spell should just [be given to Time Mages].


Poison has its place.  Wizards use Poison when they're up against units with elemental resistances and/or Shell.  It's not supposed to compete with tiered magic.  That's why it's affordable.  Giving it to Time Mages will just add more noise to the Time Magick skill set.  Time Mages already have Slow, Stop, and Don't Move to play with, and the AI loves applying these just as much as Poison.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 06:33:40 am
(For the record, it was kinda too late when I woke up to go exercise and the fatigue was more from being awake since yesterday.)

I guess I'll just use quotes this time since I'm tired of using bold at present. This will still be pretty long though, so I'll use spoilers as well.


Quote from: CT5Holy on June 16, 2013, 03:41:37 am
Ok, some things I feel obligated to point out:
1. no one uses Cheer Song


Because of Quickening. Seriously, you can't tell me Cheer Song isn't hurt by Quickening's brain-dead existence. Just like how you can't tell me Quickening doesn't also screw over Slow Dance, Speed Ruin and, to a degree, the Haste & Slow spells.

I'm not going to act like Cheer Song doesn't have issues even without Quickening's idiocy, but it can't exactly compete with what Quickening currently offers and it's unfair to try to fault it for not being as abusive as something that was one of FFMaster's few bad ideas from the get-go. Even then, I know at least a couple of people have tried to use it between myself and Raven. I think one other person has too and that number will doubtless increase once Quickening gets shoved into the incinerator where it belongs.

If anything, we should be applauding Cheer Song for having built-in balance when it comes to A.I. since it's not going to up and become the next Quickening if still allowed.


Quote from: CT5Holy on June 16, 2013, 03:41:37 am
2. ~5 teams use Tactician's Blade. That's not "a decent amount of use."


Define "a decent amount of use" for ARENA given how few people we (still) have then and compared the amount of (working) weapons, like Silencer, Platinum Sword, half of the Katana, half of the Ninjato, half of the Poles and all of the Cloths that both exist and see no use. I didn't say it saw a great amount of use--not everything can be Hidden Knife or a spellgun--or even a good amount of use, but even having been "gone" for a month, the few teams I've seen use it have used it well, hence "decent".


Quote from: CT5Holy on June 16, 2013, 03:41:37 am
3. People definitely get Maiden's Kiss, since it cures Sleep.


I never said people don't buy Maiden's Kiss. I said they still purchase it less than Soft because I was comparing Frog to Petrify.

Of course people are using Maiden's Kiss, especially since Sleep lasts so (read: probably too) damn long, but you can't honestly tell me people still aren't buying Soft more if only because Soft is 50 JP cheaper. Well, that and all of the Cursed Ring usage since Petrify is literally the only thing that stops those guys outside of Steal Accessory, especially with Quickening around. After all, unlike Sleep and even Frog, which can eventually wear off (now), if you can't cure Petrify, then that unit is effectively instantly Crystallized. (Which is what old Frog also basically used to do.)


Quote from: CT5Holy on June 16, 2013, 03:41:37 am
I'm also unsure about Beguile getting +10 to accuracy. It would then become 5% less accurate than Paralyze and Sleep. Assuming 10 MA, 70 Faith caster to 70 Faith target, Beguile accuracy would be 71%. 71%. Methinks that's a little too high for Charm. 70 Faith to 40 Faith would be a more reasonable 51%. It is 5 CT, but it does have 5 range. Yin-Yang Magic benefits a lot from Short Charge, as it makes it more effectively disrupt the enemy team, putting Beguile to 3 CT, which is enough time to catch slower spells, like Raise 2 and Holy.

+5 to Beguile accuracy seems more reasonable. Also, what about lowering Steal Heart's accuracy? It's currently MA+50%, when most Talk Skills are MA+45%, and it's instant, which means it can cancel anything being charged. Additionally, I think everyone agrees that Charm is a devastating status. Steal Heart would still be used at MA+45%, and it would mean Beguile becomes more accurate than Steal Heart on average. 10 MA caster, Beguile hit rate at +5 from current form, 70 Faith to 70 Faith target is 66%, 70 to 40 is 47%. I suppose, most importantly, is that in worst case scenario (not counting Zodiac compats), Beguile would only be barely worse than Steal Heart.


So noted then. I can get behind Beguile "only" becoming accurate by +5 if that's what it actually translates when all is said and done. I want it to get a buff of some kind, but that doesn't mean I want it to become suddenly stupid either.



Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 amSo your requirement for elements is for each to have at least two MA-based, friendly-fire AoE skills?  That's currently untenable.  What about Fire and Holy?  Fire only has one (well, three, but they're all on the same skill set), and Holy has none at all!


No. That's not my requirement. My requirement, if I had any, would merely be having another AoE at all besides reasonable access to the Crosses, which Wind would still have (theoretically).

I was merely pointing out that AoE was the only thing that Wind had going for it on the MA-based side and that two of the few Wind absorb-able techniques left, Tornado and Fuuton, are utterly contrary to each other and thus can't be used on the same team. At least the current Heaven's Cloud is something else for Wind to work with on the MA-side since, without it, there's really no point in using Tornado for purposes of absorption (unless you're planning to make 70/70 melee units, which tends to...not work outside of having Raise as back-up).

Shrug. I just don't see the point of making the already bad Wind absorption even worse, at least without any potential suggestions--even if they're not followed through with--for recompense or us being "really" sure about Draw Out or Monk just yet. Sort of a Catch-22, I know, since that's why we're discussing it, but still.

As for Fire, meh. It already has three spells like you said, even if they are all on the same skill set. And? The same applies for Ice (because, again, no one's been using Rime Bolt for quite a while) and, since you keep calling Maelstrom "niche", Water too technically. Besides, there actually being more than one (non-contrary) technique means at least everyone on the team can use it, rather than only two units max having Tornado and no one getting Wind-absorb-able Heaven's Cloud now.

I guess 70/70 units with Wind [Whatever] Crosses might work on Tornado absorb teams, but so far no one's even really been successful at trying that. Whether it's because of Thief Hat or Magic Ring or whatever, I'm not sure, but...yeah.

When it comes to Holy, that has a) Dia as well, b) one of the best Grand Crosses due to Excalibur (and, to a lesser extent, Silver Bow) and c) power, which is why people agreed on it being the rarer single-target element. Wind also sort of has power, especially since current Tornado is a bit too strong for its current Speed and Scholar's Wizard+ stats, but unlike Holy element, it doesn't really...cohesiveness I guess is the word I want? Fuuton & Tornado work against each other while Wind doesn't have much else to "fall back on" absorption-wise unlike Dark and Water (or, I guess, Earth if we're changing Suiton to Doton "all of a sudden"). This even though Dark was/is also supposed to be a "rarer, more powerful" element; while it doesn't have weapons to Grand Cross with, it's been steadily getting better and better AoE.

I'd like to think Wind absorb can work as it is now or maybe even without any recompense for Heaven's Cloud, but even Holy, for all its "limitation" AoE-wise, has seen way more (successful) absorb based teams than Wind ever has. And given we're trying to base data off what's actually happened merely than what ifs--like with the dual rod thing--or what could be...yeah.

I really do want to believe, though. [/X-Files]


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
Nerfing Salamander doesn't boost Leviathan.  It just makes both of them bad.


True, even though, again, I don't believe Leviathan is actually "bad". I just vaguely remember some people saying they thought Oil on Salamander was a bit much, just like with Oil on Fire. (This was probably largely because, again, Oil itself is currently "a bit much.")


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
I use the dictionary's definition of niche: "specialized."  As in, "Maelstrom is niche in that every member of one's party needs to be equipped to resist water."  The scholar usually needs extremely high MA and/or 0 Move to be effective, as well.  Just because it's niche doesn't mean it has to suck.


...How is absorption strategy niche when that's what Lore has been used with/for and Defense Ring is like the go-to accessory for mages currently because it blocks Silence, a bunch of other detrimental statuses and absorbs Water? Similarly, how is that "niche" when the same thing applies to literally ever other all-map Lore spell? Are you suddenly trying to say that all-map Lore spells are themselves "niche" just because they need some type of set-up and can't be slapped on to everything like brain-dead Quickening or brain-dead Masamune even though such Lore spells have been incredibly effective?

Again, "What."


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
Anyway, using Maelstrom to discuss the merits of water is moot:  Scholars are losing 2 base MA, and Water absorption is being shifted from Defense Ring to (the fashionably unpopular) Jade Armlet.


True. You brought it up in the first place though, which is why I was refuting it. Also, considering current Defense Ring is almost as overpowered as current Golden Hairpin and 1.39 Jade Armlet is getting a pair of considerable buffs, that alone helps Water a lot actually. So, uh....


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 amThat nerf to Salamander is unnecessary.  I don't see Salamander as a very exploitable way of applying Oil compared to Short Edge.  Besides, we're still waiting to hear back on how Oil can be nerfed as a status.  The nerf to Oil itself might be enough to assuage your anxiety over Salamander.

As for the others, I don't mind one way or the other.


True. It depends how Oil is nerfed though. Personally, I'm not that "anxious" about Salamander since, hell, I've probably used that spell more than most people, so I'd just be nerfing myself again. I merely mentioned it because I remember at least a couple of people mentioning it months ago and it not really getting discussed.


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
How about making the Draw Out skill that applies Slow enemy only?  Other than that, nothing.  Seeing how unpopular the current Asura is in comparison to Chirijiraden and Koutetsu, nothing of value is being lost here.


I need to consider it more, but I guess I'd be up for that depending what it meant. Does it mean leaving Asura as enemy-only and transferring Heaven's Cloud 20% Slow to it while leaving Heaven's Cloud as Wind? Or something else? And what of the katana (plural) then?


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
You typically lose the frog until it dies, and it dies quickly due to its receiving bonus damage, which the AI loves.  Maybe the buff is not necessary and can, thus, be removed.  Although, I do remember hearing somebody (was it Reinoe?) express interest in it.


Well yeah, Frogs tend to get killed quickly if they're caught. The thing is, though, when it comes how the Frog spell actually tends to connect in most instances, it's before the unit is all that close to the rest of the enemies. Thus the unit will separate from its team (if it even has any team left) while the rest of its team just advances forward if they can't cure Frog. So that unit probably stays Frogged for the rest of the match, whether its team wins or loses--its team will be far more likely to lose if no one can cure Frog without dying, though.

Also, given the way you're talking about Frog being nerfed, it's almost like you're ignoring the fact that Frog can potentially hit one of the units with resurrection capabilities on a team. Most teams tend to "only" have two such units and if both of them are Faith-based for purposes of Raise, Raise 2 or Fairy, then they're extra susceptible to Frog really.

As for the buff, meh, it's slight so it's probably fine. It definitely could stand to cost more MP regardless though.


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
I am adamantly against nerfing Holy.  It (and, to a lesser extent, Cyclops) is the only skill the holy element has.  And you're worried about Wind!  The nerf to Golden Hairpin is already going to drop Holy's damage by 20~30 across the board.


Like I said above, you're forgetting Dia and Excalibur Grand Cross, which are both quite good (even if, thankfully, Dia didn't turn out to be as overpowered on White Magick as I expected). As for the nerf to Golden Hairpin, okay, if you say so. I was merely suggesting Holy the spell probably needs to be nerfed slightly more (like 1 mere point more, so when strengthen it doesn't still out-damage Flare), not demanding Holy's head or anything.


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
Flare's ability to ignore M-EV (and reflect) is huge.  It allows Flare to punch through teams using Abandon -- teams against which Holy falls flat.  Flare would be worse than Holy if it was on White Magick.


...Okay? I don't recall refuting this. In fact, you were the one saying Flare was weak. So now you're say that Flare would be even stronger on White Magick?

Yes, it would. I don't and have never disputed that--quite the opposite considering how much I've kvetched in the past couple of months about how strong White Magick already is and how it's been getting nothing but buffs going into 1.39.

So, I agree? Are we arguing because we're in agreement suddenly?


Quote from: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:34:17 am
Poison has its place.  Wizards use Poison when they're up against units with elemental resistances and/or Shell.  It's not supposed to compete with tiered magic.  That's why it's affordable.  Giving it to Time Mages will just add more noise to the Time Magick skill set.  Time Mages already have Slow, Stop, and Don't Move to play with, and the AI loves applying these just as much as Poison.


I guess you have a point about elemental resistances and Shell. It's just that Poison is still ineffectual as hell with all of the Masamune going around. Maybe the change to Dispel and the addition of Kibaku Fuda will change that. I'll remain skeptical until I see it happen consistently enough though.

As for being "more noise", why is that a bad thing if Poison would still fit better on Time Mage potentially than Wizard? It's not like you're mandated to use every skill a skill set has or even half of the skills. Rather the opposite, in fact. After all, to phrase the tournament motto, "Know the A.I. Be the A.I. Realize what the A.I. will actually use to kill everyone."

I mean, if you're talking about skill sets being "noisy" just because they have many similar things to play with, then we could totally reduce almost all of the magick sets to half of what they currently are at the very least. After all, isn't Yin Yang Magick "noisy" as hell when Paralyze, Dispel, Petrify and maybe Undead basically trump everything else it has access to? Etcerta etcerta.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 08:21:43 am
OK!!!!!!!! TIME TO OIL UP!

I can do pretty much anything stated. However here are some problems.

Both ideas if I just did really quick fixes WILL bring weak/absorb back into action. Just be prepared for that. Getting afflicted by Oil, and then having a teammate use HC on your face to heal 300+ like good oldschool Arena. As for changing the weakness multiplier to 1.5x, it would mean that we would have to remove all the half: element from all the absorbing items as well, else they will only heal 0.75x damage. This will also bring back the Weak/Absorb, although at 1.5x healing.

I'm completely out of touch with Arena now so I won't make any suggestions for balance, I'll just say what is/isn't mechanically possible.

On an unrelated note, here are a few ideas in the backburner if I have time to implement them for 139:

Movement: Initiative - start battle at 100 CT. Effectively, this means a double turn for fast units, or a turn to set up a nice Haste or something before they even get close enough to hit each other.
Defend: Adds 20 CT when you end your turn with Defend. Effectively, a unit using Defend would still get the CT bonus for not taking an Act action.

EDIT: I plan to start work on the massive update for 139 tomorrow. Should I just follow the thread Gaignun made?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 16, 2013, 10:38:44 am
(Glad to see you back, FFMaster, even if your absence was of course understandable.)

Yes, it would be best to start with Gaignun's thread. Just leave the Monk, Ninja and Flails changes for last for now since those are basically the "only" things there being heavily discussed off the top of my head. Everything else has been more or less agreed upon at this point, though it's not like it can't be changed after the fact if necessary.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 16, 2013, 04:57:17 pm
I'll highlight the changes that are currently being disputed so that you can skip over them for the time being.  A few more changes are still on the drawing board.  They'll be added to the list once we get more input.

One thing you'll notice is that I completely disrespected the item attribute space by adding new attributes to existing equipment.  I remember reading a discussion many months ago about whether this space can be expanded.  If it cannot, then we will have to prune or reorder some of the changes.

Quote from: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 08:21:43 am
Both ideas if I just did really quick fixes WILL bring weak/absorb back into action. Just be prepared for that. Getting afflicted by Oil, and then having a teammate use HC on your face to heal 300+ like good oldschool Arena. As for changing the weakness multiplier to 1.5x, it would mean that we would have to remove all the half: element from all the absorbing items as well, else they will only heal 0.75x damage. This will also bring back the Weak/Absorb, although at 1.5x healing.


Removing half: element probably isn't a good idea.  Having oil simply set weak: element might be best in spite of weak/absorb.  This would put the onus on the attacking party to attack the oiled unit before it's healed.

Quote from: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 08:21:43 am
Movement: Initiative - start battle at 100 CT. Effectively, this means a double turn for fast units, or a turn to set up a nice Haste or something before they even get close enough to hit each other.
Defend: Adds 20 CT when you end your turn with Defend. Effectively, a unit using Defend would still get the CT bonus for not taking an Act action.


I like these!  It never hurts to have more movement abilities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 16, 2013, 05:26:07 pm
So, you know how the current paradigm for Summon Magic is that Summons with CT <= 3 are unevadable, and Summons with CT >=5 are evadable? Why don't we change it so Summons whose damage formula is <= F_(MA*8) are unevadable, and damage formula >= F_(MA*9) are evadable? This would help Leviathan and Salamander.

Another idea for Leviathan and Salamander would be to make their damage formula a straight MA*6 or MA*7, so it's Faith independent. Damage wouldn't be too high, much like it is now to compensate for the 3 AoE, and if you choose to run 40 Faith, then you lose out on all the other summons.

I also really like the new movement ability and buff to Defend.

Damned: Sorry, I meant people do get Maiden's Kiss at more or less the same frequency as Soft =P
I should also mention that Swords are equippable by a lot more jobs than Crossbows, Poles, Katana, and especially Cloths, so it's still not a decent amount of use in my mind. Doesn't help that there are a lot of different swords, too. Regardless, this seems to be more of a semantics argument, so let's drop it, and I concede that you have a point in that there are a lot of unused equipment. Let's focus on those =P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 05:33:10 pm
Everyone must understand that simply due to the massive amount of items in this patch, some will obviously be neglected while others are used. This is dependent on what strategies are currently being run. So in my mind, these items are not bad, but rather they do not work in this current meta. If the meta shifted, you can definitely expect the equipment choices to shift as well.

That doesn't mean that there are some items that are just too good or vice versa. The hard part is trying to work out which ones are just bad and not just being neglected because of the current meta.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 16, 2013, 05:37:55 pm
Quote from: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 05:33:10 pm
Everyone must understand that simply due to the massive amount of items in this patch, some will obviously be neglected while others are used. This is dependent on what strategies are currently being run. So in my mind, these items are not bad, but rather they do not work in this current meta. If the meta shifted, you can definitely expect the equipment choices to shift as well.

That doesn't mean that there are some items that are just too good or vice versa. The hard part is trying to work out which ones are just bad and not just being neglected because of the current meta.

Well I just want you to know that myself and many others are very grateful.  Furthermore there are going to be bugs too, that's inevitable.  Take your time.  And thanks.  Oh, btw are you doing all these updates by yourself?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 06:21:41 pm
Yes, I do the updates myself, unless there is something I need help on (spriting, some asm hacking).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 18, 2013, 03:53:00 am
(Gods damn it, I am such a lazy ass.)

I had meant this to be up around 3:00 A.M. and then noon after getting horribly distracted repeatedly. And then I fell asleep. Great.

Anyway, I did an impromptu count of the weapons on the currently non-retired teams, not including mine which aren't "officially" retired for the most part; that's probably for the best part, given my...atypical weapon usage, though I'll likely add them in the next day or two anyway when I re-post some of them. It's probably somewhat flawed by a factor of + or - 1 or even 2 on some of the more commonly used items given my level of repeated distraction, but this should be mostly accurate even if it would be nice if someone more competent double-checked.

It should be noted that I counted "inactive" people who obviously aren't around anymore like Taichii even if I avoided teams that were "retired" or on "vacation" or currently on "hiatus" (again, besides my own, which I obviously have access to information-wise). I don't think that should change too much outside of Kikuichimonji going down to 0 between Celdia's "retirement" from ARENA as a whole and Taichii's apparent disappearance. This especially after seeing how many new teams that Dokurider, Otabo and reinoe have added since I've been "gone".

Anyway, without further ado:



I'm going to "steal" Gaignun's color-coding for this.

Buffs are highlighted in green.
Nerfs are highlighted in maroon.
Neutral changes are highlighted in blue.
Disputed changes are highlighted in red.
Probable snark or sarcasm may or may not be highlighted in anything.


KNIVES (Usable by: Squire, Chemist, Thief, Mediator, Ninja, Bard, Dancer and units with "Equip Light Blade" Support.)
Throwing Knife - 5 [Maybe getting a buff.]
Dual Cutters - 3 [Getting a buff.]
Repel Knife - 3 [Probably staying the same; it is actually (seems to be) working as it should unlike what I claimed last time you were around, FFMaster.]
Mage Masher - 3 [Perhaps staying the "same", though it currently kinda sucks, really, and the very least needs a correct in the Master Guide since it's proc Bizen Boat at a rather high percentage.]
Platina Dagger - 5 [Stays the same.]
Main Gauche - 17 [Stays the same.]
Orichalcum - 2 [Stays the same.]
Katar - 5 [Stays the same.]
Air Knife - 4 [Getting a necessary WP, however slight it actually seems to be turning out.]


NINJATO (Usable by: Thief, Ninja and units with "Equip Light Blade" Support.)
Hidden Knife - 33 [Getting a couple of necessary nerfs if it's going to keep that pesky Always: Transparent.]
Ninja Knife - 18 [Probably stays the same (even though I think it's also part of the Kagesougi problem, if not as big as Hidden Knife or a couple of Bows).]
Short Edge - 13 [Getting its WP nerfed, though it's sort of getting a "buff" in that the accidentally Oil proc is becoming official (in the Master Guide), so....]
Ninja Edge - 1 [Overall getting buffed despite taking a slight hit to its WP.]
Spell Edge - 2 [Despite the fact that it's actually missing its MA +1 IIRC (that or its Spell Absorb proc), Dol's "8 Swords" team is using two of it currently on one unit.] [Getting a buff to proc, which will be 100%, and the fact its +1 MA will definitely actually be around next version.] 
Sasuke Knife - 9 [This is dying and getting replaced by Orochimaru Fang, so....]
Iga Knife - 1 [Overall should be stronger even with the current suggestion, even if this is basically dying as well.]
Koga Knife - 1 [Overall should be stronger even with the current suggestion, even if this is basically dying as well.]


SWORDS (Usable by: Squire, Paladin, Thief, Geomancer, Scholar, Bard, Dancer and units with "Equip Light Blade" Support.)
Phoenix Blade - 16 [Disputed changes abound here. The Immune: Critical thing was suggested by Raven and while some people are for it and I can understand why he thinks it's necessary, the more I thought about it, the more I against became it. Other people are against it getting Immune: Critical as well given how dumb it already makes the enemy A.I., even when not in pairs. Additionally, I've said it should probably lose a bit of W-EV even if Parry Edge is getting a W-EV since now that's going to have to compete (even more) with Slasher.]
Tactician's Blade - 4 [I vaguely remember someone suggesting a slight, sensible buff for this months ago, but it's not on the list, I'm too lazy to look for it currently and no one's saying anything about it, so it probably remains the same.]
Parry Edge - 1 [Only used by one of Jumza's new teams.] [Gets a slight W-EV boost so that its W-EV isn't inferior to Phoenix Blade; it still only ties with Phoenix Blade though.]
Moonlight - 5 [Stays the same.]
Blood Sword - 3 [Stays the same.]
Coral Sword - 1 [Only used by reinoe's "Squinja" team.] [Everyone agrees it needs at least a slight buff proc-wise, but no one can agree on what presently. CT5Holy suggested replacing Water Ball with Suiton.]
Ancient Sword - 4 [Stays the same.]
Sleep Sword - 3 [Stays the same.]
Platinum Sword - 0 [Stays the same? (Even though no one's using it now and it will have to compete with Slasher?)]
Shieldrender - 1 [Purely unused because its Shield Break proc doesn't work presently; for some reason Dol's "Beta" team hasn't been edited since last September.] [Its proc gets fixed going into next version.]
Ice Brand - 5 [Stays the same.]
Rune Blade - 28 [Stays the same.]
Lionheart - 15 [Whoa, what? Since when the hell are we giving this thing W-EV, much less 10% W-EV? No one mentioned this. Disputed like hell.]
Ultima Weapon - 3 [Stays the same.]


KNIGHT('S) SWORDS (Usable by: Paladin and units with "Equip Heavy Blade" Support.)
Defender - 5 [Getting a buff to WP.]
Save the Queen - 2 [Getting a buff overall even if it takes a slight hit in WP & W-EV due to Initial: Protect becoming Always: Protect. This technically frees up an Item Attribute spot should Persia change too.]
Excalibur - 5 [Disputed in actuality. Personally, people said that the +1 WP would be a sensible buff compared to Always: Haste; I don't recall people unanimously agreeing that Excalibur actually needs said buff though.]
Ragnarok - 1 [Getting a buff overall even if it takes a slight hit in WP & W-EV due to Initial: Shell becoming Always: Shell. This technically frees up an Item Attribute spot should Cashmere change too.]
Chaos Blade - 4 [Stays the same.]


KATANA (Usable by: Paladin, Samurai and units with "Equip Heavy Blade" Support.)
Asura Knife - 2 [Stays the same.]
Kotetsu Knife - 0 [Stays the same.]
Bizen Boat - 2 [Stays the same.]
Murasame - 12 [Stays the same.]
Heaven's Cloud - 1 [Only used in Dokurider's Peking Dragon Company.] [May change if Heaven's Cloud the ability changes.]
Kiyomori - 22 [Stays the same.]
Muramasa - 6 [Stays the same.]
Kikuichimonji - 2 [Stays the same.]
Masamune - 4 [May end up getting a buff if people are fine with it getting Initial: Regen too.]
Chirijiraden - 5 [Stays the same.]


AXES (Usable by: Paladin, Geomancer and untis with
"Equip Heavy Blade" Support.)
Battle Axe - 23 [Getting what's more of a nerf rather than a neutral change, really, since Decapitate--I still say it should get renamed "Maim" now--gets dropped all the way down to 50%-55% Max HP from 85% Max HP.] [I don't recall people agreeing that the proc rate should be as high as 33% definitively though.]
Giant Axe - 6 [Stays the same.]
Slasher - 3 [2 used by FDC's "TestB". Getting boosted.] [Getting a buff overall by becoming usable with Two Swords as well as Two Hands so that both other axes no longer overshadow it, even if it needs to take a slight hit to W-EV.]


RODS (Usable by: Squire, Wizard, Summoner, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Magegear" Support.)
Prismatic Rod - 9 [Stays the same.]
Thunder Rod - 0 [Apparently is getting a slight WP buff despite only one other person agreeing it to explicitly; I guess I'm fine with it since elemental Rods haven't exactly been slaughtering people in a while.]
Flame Rod - 3 [Stays the same.]
Ice Rod - 1 [Apparently is getting a slight WP buff despite only one other person agreeing it to explicitly; I guess I'm fine with it since elemental Rods haven't exactly been slaughtering people in a while.]
Poison Rod - 3 [Stays the same.]
Wizard Rod - 37 [Stays the same.]
Dragon Rod - 1 [Probably stays the same even though it's seeing almost no use.]
Faith Rod - 11 [Stays the same.]


STAVES (Usable by: Squire, Priest, Time Mage, Summoner, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Magegear" Support.) [This entire category is contested in actuality outside of people agreeing that Gold Staff should have the most W-EV, that White Staff should probably be Holy Elemental and that Mace of Zeus is probably fine.]
White Staff - 2
Healing Staff - 5
Rainbow Staff - 3 [2 used by FDC's "Deadbolt" team.]
Wizard Staff - 31
Gold Staff - 4
Mace of Zeus - 9


FLAILS (Usable by: Squire, Priest and Ninja.)
Sadist's Whip - 4 [Stays the same.]
Spiked Futon - 3 [Stays the same.]
Aspergillum - 3 [Might be changed to the Desert Rose flail for...some reason.]
Scorpion Tail - 7 [Stays the same.]


GUNS (Usable by: Chemist, Archer, Mediator and units with "Equip Ranged" Support.) [There was also some talk about making the spellguns and/or Stone Gun Forced Two Hand given all the Kaiser Plate BS, but meh, that can probably wait.]
Romanda Gun - 16 [Stays the same.]
Mythril Gun - 2 [Stays the same...even though it and Romanda Gun could probably stand to combine and this could probably die/change to something else completely.]
Stone Gun - 4 [Initial Petrify getting removed seems a bigger buff than the very slight nerf to 5 Range and with -1 SP.]
Blaze Gun - 15 [Nerfed to cast Nether Fire so it can no longer obviate most mages automatically.]
Glacier Gun - 16 [Nerfed to cast Nether Ice so it can no longer obviate most mages automatically.]
Blast Gun - 6 [Nerfed to cast Nether Bolt so it can no longer obviate most mages automatically.]


CROSSBOWS (Usable by: Squire, Archer and units with "Equip Ranged" Support.)
Bow Gun - 3 [Purely unused because its Shield Break proc doesn't work presently; Ahong, DarkxFatal & reinoe just haven't edited ever it out of their teams for some reason.] ["Buffed" by getting its proc fixed, at which point it will probably quickly become overpowered because it's freaking Armor Break.]
Night Killer - 1 [Only used on Dokurider's "Magic Shield Maidens".] [Stays the same.]
Silencer - 1 [Apparently one of Vigilanti's "recent" changes to his Sobriety team.] [Getting a WP boost.]
Poison Bow - 3 [2 on Zareb's "Browncoats" team.] [Stays the same; no longer getting a WP nerf that it probably doesn't need just for the sake of Silencer, especially when Hawk's Eye might not be getting nerfed as much it needs to be.]
Hunting Bow - 3 [Stays the same.]
Gastrafitis - 3 [Getting a WP nerf, but it's getting a proc...that for some reason is 100%. I thought it was supposed to be 50%, but maybe it was 100% even back when I agreed to it and I just don't remember now; too lazy to check.]


LONGBOWS (Usable by: Archer and units with "Equip Ranged" Support.)
Long Bow - 1 [Getting a Movement buff...which ends up eating up an Item Attribute space unlike if it was just increased in Range.]
Silver Bow - 7 [Stays the same.]
Ice Bow - 0 [Stays the same; difficult to tell if it will get a nerf or buff from the change to Jade Armlet and Defense Ring.]
Lightning Bow - 0 [Stays the same.]
Windslash Bow - 2 [Stays the same.]
Mythril Bow - 16 [Gets the (slight) WP nerf it needs.]
Ultimus Bow - 5 [Gets the (slight) WP nerf it needs.]


HARPS (Usable by: Bards.)
Lamia Harp - 0 [If nothing else changes with this, can we at least change the name already?] [Stays the same...even though I still think it and Madlemgen are too similar.]
Bloody Strings - 5 [Getting a nerf to at least 10 WP; I still think its WP should be slightly less, especially if it becomes more available, but whatever.]
Fairy Harp - 1 [Stays the same.]


BOOKS (Usable by: Squire, Summoner, Mediator, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Magegear" Support.)
Necronomicon - 5 [Stays the same.]
Monster Dict - "0" [Technically 1, due to my Plastic Knight team.] [Stays the same...even though its proc could probably use a buff.]
Papyrus Plate - 5 [Stays the same.]
Madlemgen - 7 [Stays the same...even though I still think it and Lamia Harp are too similar.]


SPEARS (Usable by: Lancer and units with "Equip Polearm" Support.) [Apparently Spear, Mythril Spear & Partisan are "contested" now even though pretty much everyone agreed that the only change to the elemental Breath lances were that they should become elemental themselves. I think the only contested part was if they should lose a bit of WP because of Black Robe availability on Lancers, but even then.... They could probably use name changes though.]
Javelin - 15 [Stays the same.]
Spear - 0
Mythril Spear - 0
Partisan - 2
Obelisk - 4 [Stays the same.]
Holy Lance - 0 [Actually contested too, at least in terms of proc since Dokurider said that it should probably just get Cyclops and I kind of agree. I don't know, however, what you wanted to do for its Holy Breath proc, FFMaster, so I said we should wait until you came back to talk about it. I also don't remember ever talking about an W-EV buff to it, so....]
Dragon Whisker - 14 [Stays the same.]


POLES (Usable by: Lancer, Oracle, Scholar and units with "Equip Polearm" Support.) [This entire category currently is staying the same, if only because no one's really talked about them. At all.]
Iron Fan - 0
Gokuu Rod - "0" [Technically at least 2 between Otabo and myself.]
Ivory Rod - 16
Octagon Rod - 5
Whale Whisker - 2


BAGS (Usable by: All Classes except Mime.) [This entire category currently is staying the same, if only because that "Healing Bag" idea quickly got forgotten.]
C Bag - 4
FS Bag - 31
P Bag - 17
H Bag - 17


CLOTHS (Usable by: Dancer.) [This entire category currently is staying the same, if only because no one's really talked about them in months and no could agree what the hell to change Persia and Cashmere too since Ryozan Silk is probably fine.]
Persia - 0
Cashmere - 2
Ryozan Silk - 3



This was rather informative on a number of levels:


1. I'm not really surprised by any of the popular weapons outside of realizing how much Murasame is actually getting used apparently, especially compared to most other Katana.

2. I hadn't realized before that Flails, like Harps & Cloths, aren't part of any "Equip X" ability. That or I had forgotten.

3. Night Killer being the least used Crossbow is extremely surprising, especially given it has tended to always be the second most popular one after Hunting Bow and given that Bow Gun doesn't even freaking work.

4. Thunder Rod and Lightning Bow not getting used makes less sense than Ice Bow not getting used and yet I know that I've at least tried to use Ice Bow.


Etcerta etcerta.

Besides doing this to "help" FFMaster, I did it since CT5Holy semi-rightfully said I was getting into talk about semantics, which I do tend to do, mostly because I don't see that as being always a bad thing like some people seem to. Still, I figured I'd do something substantive considering CT5Holy also mentioned trying to help weapons that actually need help. So, off the top of my head, here's my suggestions for the weapons that we either haven't really talked about or that I have "strong" opinions about:


1. Mage Masher: We haven't really talked about this, but it probably do needs some "help", if only deciding what it actually "should proc I think it would be fine its Bizen Boat proc, which is what it actually procs, becomes 100% given that the most (likely) users of Knives have crap MA and that the new Bizen Boat is actually going to be subject to M-EV--procs are still subject to evasion, right? I forget.

2. Iga Knife, Koga Knife and Desert Rose: If Aspergillum gets turned into Desert Rose (for whatever reason), then it is only fair that Koga Knife becomes Water element and that Iga Knife gets Strengthen Water. While I don't expect Summoners (or Wizards) to suddenly start using Ninjato, such a change would both be fair and make it easier for (female) Ninja to use both Summon Magick and Black Magick, especially if Leviathan and Salamander get changed to not go on Faith like how CT5Holy suggested.

3. Platinum Sword: This sword is probably still going to see next to no use still with the buffs to Slasher and even the slight one to Parry Edge. It's also sure as hell not going to any use if we buff Lionheart of all things. Why are we giving that W-EV all of sudden? And when did we agree to that? Not that Swords should really be getting more buffs as it is, but Platinum Sword seems like it needs...something.

4. Excalibur: ...Really doesn't need that WP boost. Do you really want to make its Grand Cross equal in power to Chaos Blade's Southern Cross by default, especially if Cursed Ring loses Null: Holy and nothing Halves Holy? It's fine as it is, even with the other buffs the three lesser Knight Swords are getting.

5. Battle Axe: I thought people had agreed to it being 25% proc, not 33%, and to make Decapitate/Maim do 55% Max HP as "recompense" for that? Granted, I'd be fine with 25% proc of "only" 50% Max HP since current Battle Axe is completely absurd anyway.

6. Staves: I've already made my feelings on these known, though I'd be willing to give up +1 Sp on my bloated version of Healing Staff. With the tally above, seeing how little use C Bag is actually getting just reaffirms to me that we really don't seem to need Wizard Staff since we have such a glut of +2 MA weapons.

7. Romanda Gun, Mythril Gun and Stone Gun: We kinda just stopped talking about whether to combine these are what given what little use Mythril Gun is actually getting, which I doubt will change very much even with spellguns getting much needed actual nerfs. This partly because I'm still somewhat against Stone Gun getting only slight nerfs if it's going to lose as big a drawback as Initial: Petrify.

8. Poison Bow and Gastraphetes: Poison Bow is probably fine staying with its WP, but Hawk's Eye still needs bigger nerfs if it's going to see (more) use. This especially if Poison and Regen are getting their CT reduced like they probably should (given they stay past death) and if Gastraphetes has a chance of causing Poison and out-damaging Poison Bow (just like Hawk's Eye) as well. I also have to ask that if Gastraphetes is "really" going to be "Kagesougi: The Crossbow", then it should probably also get Kagesougi's chance to add 100% "Nothing"; I'm pretty sure Kagesougi is using the blank status above Crystal or else it would be even more overpowered than it currently is. It's only fair that Gastraphetes gets the same treatment if it both allows for infinite Kagesougi and for an entire team to have Kagesougi on all units.

9. Lamia Harp and Bloody Strings: I still think Bloody Strings could see more of WP reduction and still be fine, but more importantly, I still think that Lamia Harp needs a proc change to...something other than Stop given Madlemgen. This especially if Equip Mageagear gets Harps. Speaking of which....

10. Equip Magegear giving access to Harps: Are we doing this or not? Because we all briefly discussed it, but it's not in the list of changes and people are more or less ambivalent too it. I still have my own hesitance, but that's mostly due to the Harps above and if Bloody Strings is definitely getting a WP reduction now....

11. Equip Polearms giving access to Cloths: As above, we all briefly discussed this months ago and then nothing was ever said about it again, probably because no one could agree how to fix the Cloths Persia and Cashmere to "actually" be usable. Everyone had wildly different ideas--the most usable one I remember had their evasions vary radically. Regardless, this is more a strict question of "should we make Cloths more available (even if two of them sort of suck)?" than anything else.

12. Equip [Anything] giving access to Flails: Flails somehow got overlooked in terms of access to them and availability. This is probably because there are so many damn Ninja around and because Flails have somewhat decent distribution, at least compared to Harps and Cloths (which isn't saying much, really). So I guess it's a two-fold issue of if Flails should become more available at all (whether it's becoming part of an Equip X or just another class [besides Mime], like Knight, getting it) and, if it would become part of an Equip X, then the decision on which one.

13. Iron Fan and Ivory Rod: There's no real reason to use Iron Fan when Ivory Rod can be Two-Handed, really. Whale Whisker is probably fine being Two Handed as it is even though it can do absurd damage when Two Handed with its current power, but Ivory Rod being Two-Handed, have decent WP already AND having +2 MA, which only adds to both former things, is a bit much it seems. I wouldn't be against it either getting a WP nerf or not becoming Two-Handed, even if that meant similar nerfs to Whale Whisker. (In Whale Whisker's case, I think it's more appropriate if WP was nerfed though since I think at least one Pole should remain Two Hands compatible and right now Whale Whisker is the only good Water weapon.)

14. New Healing on Hit Weapons: Among other things that fell by the wayside, we never decided on whether one of the bags would become a healing item or if one of the guns would or if there should be any new healing items at all. At this point, I'd probably have to lean towards P Bag getting it healing since that makes the most "sense" if a bag had to heal at all. H Bag could still also become holder of that healing priority, however, if a bag did at all given any bag would be healing for paltry damage, obviously. Additionally, both of those bags already see way more use than poor C Bag, so perhaps none of the Bags should try to become healing items. I'd still be fine with one of the guns becoming a "Vector Gun" or "Opera Gun" that heals, especially since that would help curb Cursed Ring use even more without being able to "nuke" those units.

15. Persia and Cashmere: I still have no ideas how to "fix" these to be honest.



Quote from: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 08:21:43 am
OK!!!!!!!! TIME TO OIL UP!

*Oil stuff*


What Gaignun said about Oil. It's not the optimal choice, but it's the most fair one to you given you're basically doing all this work solo and it's certainly the lesser evil of the two options.


Quote from: FFMaster on June 16, 2013, 08:21:43 am
Movement: Initiative - start battle at 100 CT. Effectively, this means a double turn for fast units, or a turn to set up a nice Haste or something before they even get close enough to hit each other.

Defend: Adds 20 CT when you end your turn with Defend. Effectively, a unit using Defend would still get the CT bonus for not taking an Act action.


I really, really don't like Initiative or, rather, I am extremely hesitant about it even though it's obviously "only" a one-time thing. I'll try to give it more thought.

The buff to Defend (the Support only, right?) seems more fair, but it seems like it might be difficult to pull off mechanically, especially since you'd realistically have to make sure that the CT boost only applied to Defend and not adding Defending, otherwise Nurse becomes broken and Caution potentially becomes overpowered. Also, you'd have to realistically reward the A.I. for using Defend at all since a lot of the time the A.I. likes to use Defend and then Move, so....

Still, that seems far more fair than Initiative if it actually worked and you now have me inadvertently wondering if we should "improve" Defend by moving it to Movement as with Maintenance.


Quote from: CT5Holy on June 16, 2013, 05:26:07 pm
So, you know how the current paradigm for Summon Magic is that Summons with CT <= 3 are unevadable, and Summons with CT >=5 are evadable? Why don't we change it so Summons whose damage formula is <= F_(MA*8) are unevadable, and damage formula >= F_(MA*9) are evadable? This would help Leviathan and Salamander.

Another idea for Leviathan and Salamander would be to make their damage formula a straight MA*6 or MA*7, so it's Faith independent. Damage wouldn't be too high, much like it is now to compensate for the 3 AoE, and if you choose to run 40 Faith, then you lose out on all the other summons.


I'd be up more for the Faith independent Leviathan and Salamander even if it would probably have to be the lower end multiplier. Otherwise, making Salamander unavoidable (alongside Leviathan) just screws over Ifrit even more, which already isn't really seeing use despite being unavoidable (given it, Ramuh and Shiva still don't vary). Also, unavoidable AoE 3 abilities seem like they would be a bit...much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 18, 2013, 05:13:29 am
Lionheart & Platinum Sword: When Lionheart was proposed by Raven, he gave it 11 WP, which made it the most powerful weapon in its category.  In compensation, it granted no W-EV.  Nevertheless, fearing its effect on the meta-game, we eventually reduced its WP to 10.  However, its W-EV penalty persisted. With the WP nerf, Lionheart and Platinum Sword are of equal strength.  In fact, when you equip Attack UP, Platinum Sword is actually stronger when your PA is 3*n.  Lionheart's sole advantage is increasing the strength of PA-based skills, primarily Punch Art and Ninjutsu.  Rune Blade increases the strength of MA-based skills in an analogous way, and it has had 10 W-EV from the beginning.  Giving Lionheart back its 10 W-EV seems natural to me for this reason.

Slasher & Platinum Sword: Axes can only be equipped by a select few classes (i.e. Paladin and Geomancer).  Furthermore, these classes have 8 SP.  On the other hand, Platinum Sword can be equipped by Thieves.  Thus, I think it's fine if we make Platinum Sword weaker than Slasher.

Battle Axe:  I'm trying to avoid a knee-jerk nerf here by increasing the proc rate from 25% to 33%.  Overall damage is still lower than before (0.33*0.50 < 0.25*0.85).  Other weapons hit for over 50% damage 100% of the time, so I don't find this very intimidating.  The proc rate increase will make it nice to punch through targets with Cherche and the new Save the Queen.

Iron Fan and Ivory Rod:  Iron Fan might be at home on Druids if Druids can equip both poles and shields.

Stone Gun:  This gun definitely needs a nerf to make crossbows viable, and The Damned is right in suspecting that removing Init: Petrify will do more harm than good.  Rather, why don't we leave it as is, but make it force two-hands?  We won't need to consume an item attribute space for -1 SP this way.

This is unrelated, but

Lancers: Would anyone be uncomfortable with giving Lancers an extra 1~3 MA?  I recently noticed that Lancers are supposed to be able to use poles. (I say "supposed to" because they clearly cannot with their lousy MA).  If Lancers get extra MA, female Lancers with poles might actually become a "thing."
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 18, 2013, 06:44:15 am
(Now we shall play Shrug Fighter 4.).

This will was planned to be extremely concise, partly because I really need[ed] to finish editing for once before falling asleep again:

1. Platinum Sword, Rune Blade, Lioneheart and, I guess, Slasher: I am aware of that. My hesitance is less that Lionheart will become broken or anything and more that it will just continue to overwhelm Platinum Sword. While they're "equal" and Platinum Sword is supposedly superior with Attack Up, a lot of the Lionheart usage has been with Two Swords, where it is obviously (way) superior to Platinum Sword in that department; I point this out especially given your Platinum Sword models earlier involved Two Swords. Additionally, even a lot of the "balls-to-the-wall" (or in the case of Dancer, vagina-to-the-wall) max PA set-ups prefer using Concentrate over Attack UP so they can you, know, actually hit; they also often use other Supports for various reason (provided they can even afford dipping into Geomancer for Attack UP in the first place). This especially on single-targets and especially with mantles seeing way more use in 1.38 ARENA. So I just think making an already great weapon even better when its direct competition isn't getting anything and isn't even being used, at all, is...unjustified, since it's obviously still great even with the preemptive W-EV nerf.

Additionally, I just don't remember the addition of the W-EV being discussed, at all, at least on forum; It might have been discussed on IRC or something, but I pretty much never go there. Not that I remember everything or that everything needs to go through me, but I seriously don't remember it ever even coming up. So it kinda bugged me that I had to notice by reading the list, especially since you pointed out your "personal" changes before.

Regardless, since you mentioned Rune Blade and that's obviously been used a lot as well, how about we come to a "compromise" on this if you think Lionheart really, really needs some W-EV despite all its use already? Given both the stat-boosting swords are (of course) being used the most of all the swords and yet boosting Platinum Sword isn't an option, then perhaps we can boost Lionheart slightly less? (Provided other people agree it actually needs a boost; I'd rather not repeat giving Excalibur +1 WP again just because people agreed that it would be more sensible.)

I personally guess I'd be "fine" with Lionheart getting some evasion...if it's only 5% W-EV...and Rune Blade got simultaneously nerfed to have only 5% W-EV since it's largely on Draw-out bots and crap anyway that should be as prone to hits much as possible for all their AoE. That way they still get evasion, but neither outshines boring and yet unused Platinum Sword in the evasion department at least. (Slasher is probably fine I guess given its damage at least fluctuates. My saying Slashr might be a problem was more due to how much Platinum Sword "sucks" and how all of those Axe-wielding classes also get Swords. As widespread as Swords are, they aren't on every class, so competition is still competition, especially when you have nothing "special" going on.)


2. Battle Axe: I guess. Again, my problem was more that I don't remember discussing it and coming to a (semi-)definitive conclusion, especially anytime recently, beyond everyone agreeing that it should be in the ballpark of 25%, maybe more, and Decapitate needs to be between 50%-55%. It's probably fine though.


3. Druids and Poles: Last FFMaster said anything about Druids, he said he was forgoing giving them Shields at present, so...yeah; they're not getting Shields innately. I guess we could "petition" him to give them access to Equip Shield at least if people are up to it. Then people might actually back me up on saying that Equip Magegear should go to Time Mage where it actually belongs given they have horrible attacking options (if mostly due to current Staves).


4. Stone Gun: I concur, especially since with the much needed nerfs to Spell-guns, Stone Gun automatically becomes the strongest Gun again by default. I never understood why people were comfortable with the Spell-guns and Stone Guns being usable with Shields. Given Forcing Two Hands on the former might be too much after their Nether nerf, the latter seems an acceptable target, especially since it's way less work for FFMaster to do to make sure the -1 SP thing doesn't screw up in the first place.

I'm indifferent as to whether Stone Gun's range should remain nerfed to 5 or not though, especially since it would still have more range than Crossbows anyway. It probably "should" though.


5. Lancers and MA: Yeah, I've been saying that Lancers should get more MA ever since I decided to agree with Raven about the Robes. Let's compromise at +2 MA and see if that's maybe okay; suddenly giving them +3 MA seems a bit much, especially since as horrible as their MA is, I've already done decently enough with a female Lancer using Gokuu Rod. Give them +2 MA also seems easier to adjust either way really.


Shrug. (Also, the more I've thought about it, the slight buff to Frog probably is problematic since I just caught up on a few matches and my female, not-quite-MA-stacked-yet-Pilgrimage-using Wizard managed to Frog another female at 83%, so.... The MP increase nerf should probably stay though.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 18, 2013, 06:48:01 am
Don't worry about Lancers and poles, I have a plan in the works for it. I'm mostly done with the patch, just need to add a few ASM tweaks, and some stuff for Monk/Ninja.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 18, 2013, 11:45:37 am
(Well, that was a lot quicker than I expected, especially given everything we were asking you.)

FFMaster, this reminds me: Did Raven inform you of the error he found with regards to the percentage hack you did? I'm not sure what the exact details were or who fixed it, but it was affected some things in Journey of the Five negatively, so you should ask Elric or Raven if they haven't said anything to you.

I'm saying this even though I'm not sure if this affects anything in ARENA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 18, 2013, 05:18:47 pm
What percentage hack?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 18, 2013, 06:01:06 pm
(So, I double-checked....)

And I double-checked your thread as well. I couldn't find the ASM that Raven "blamed" you for, but here's the post (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9582.msg189040#msg189040) I'm talking about (if you haven't found it already considering this is almost an hour later).


Omission EDIT: God damn it. I admitted the n't from after "could". Ugh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 18, 2013, 06:42:36 pm
I didn't make that hack. He's blaming me for nothing. I've never cared about Zodiac monsters taking 999 from things like Life Drain.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on June 18, 2013, 07:09:10 pm
Quote from: FFMaster on June 18, 2013, 06:42:36 pm
I didn't make that hack. He's blaming me for nothing. I've never cared about Zodiac monsters taking 999 from things like Life Drain.


Then you can blame Chotokukyan blaming you.  :v

God knows it was probably Razele in that case, but it doesn't really matter and I don't really care enough to look.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 18, 2013, 07:31:28 pm
(I'll just blame everyone. There.)

Okay, so with that out of the way, since I'm mentioning it, did you ever find out what was wrong with the Oil hack? Also, were you able to fix it so that Oil removed by elemental weapon strikes that didn't kill?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 18, 2013, 07:40:29 pm
No and no. I haven't done any ASM hacking yet. I have an idea about the 2 swords Oil problem thanks to fdc, but it's just an idea. As for the 2nd effect, I'll just make it so Oil doesn't persist after death.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 19, 2013, 05:17:32 am
(Uh...FFMaster....)

You already did the "Oil is canceled by Dead as a fix thing" like...a year and a half ago. In fact, I'm vaguely sure that I "stole" the idea from you considering how simple yet effective it was.

I'll take that as "no" then.

Also, what 2 swords Oil problem? I was just talking about normal elemental weapon strikes that don't kill not getting rid of Oil.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 19, 2013, 06:11:35 am
In the grand scheme of things, Gaffgarion Gun becoming Kagesougi: The Crossbow isn't truly necessary. With Kagesougi's glut of nerf, both directly (8 MP and losing Don't Act) and indirectly (Hidden Knife losing +1 Speed and Ultima Bow's WP nerf), my main concerns about Kagesougi making the Crossbows almost in their entirety obsolete is mostly addressed. Left as is, Gas Throw Feast Us would be useful again as the strongest PA * WP ranged weapon. However, Kagsougifying The Big G wouldn't hurt it either as it becomes an MP free Kagesougi that would obviate the need for Move MP Up or constant MP maintenance,  freeing up room for other investments, as well as not using up the Secondary Job slot just so you have access to Kagesougi. Overall, it's not bad option in the slightest. Even if nothing else relevant was changed for 1.39 and Kagesougi/Ultima Bow stayed more or less the same, it would still be useful for those purposes as an investment free Kagesougi alone. It's your call in the end, FFM, but let this be the case for the Kagesougi-ing of the Gastropod Gun.

Anyways, here's an alternative idea for the Bow Gun instead of it's current 50% Rape Enemy proc. Lose the proc and give it the Two Hand property. It absolutely works, as I tested it once as an possible idea for ASM'd/1.3 and it worked perfectly. It might need a +1 WP boost to compensate for the lack of Attack Up/Concentrate support.

I remember your solution to the Poles being weak on Lancers was creating a custom formula that use PA or MA, determined by whichever was higher. To me that seems you might as well make Poles PA * WP because even Females Oracles have a good enough PA stat to make them work for them, because all they want from poles is the +MA and frog procs and don't really care too much about the damage aspect of poles anyways. Meanwhile, all the classes that will want to be using it now will obviously favor the PA aspect of the formula.  The only class that would get screwed over by just making a PA * WP class would be the mythical Magic Shield Tank class that everyone wants, which judging from your initial draft of the Druid class, might not be happening.

I'm positive that using Water Ball as a weapon proc will not trigger it's very own proc. If Holy Breath won't trigger it's procedural, I'm pretty sure the same applies to all weapon procs. And even if it did, hoping for a 20% proc off a 33% proc sounds pretty insignificant. I think it's real problem is a simple lack of WP, which I'm pretty sure it's kept low because of the 20% of a 33% proc it has. Suiton sounds pretty sweet. It can also proc Water if all else fails. An alternative solution would be to add Absorb: Water, drop it's WP, and call it Mace of Poseidon: Bladed Edition.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 19, 2013, 07:24:48 am
I remember the bug you are talking about now Damned. I remember talking to maybe fdc about it ages ago, and it could be linked to the fact that weapon formulas don't go through the Oil removal routine, which may or may not be tricky to enable for them.

Giving Bow gun the option to be 2 handed is a cool idea, I think we could run that for this new patch and see where it goes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 19, 2013, 07:31:20 am
(I'll be actually concise for once.)

I agree with all of Dokurider's above ideas except the details of Coral Sword, which I have to think more about.

Bow Gun, with Armor Break, is probably going to be hilariously overpowered even if its chance to Armor Break is "only" really 19% as I think Raven did the math for months ago. I'd still be up for trying it for at least an iteration of a version since I've said before I expect 1.39a to be ARENA: Rainbow Edition (or ARENA: Australian Error1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEnkUTG9FOc) Edition) since a lot of things are going to be rather powerful and new. (So long as nothing is Quickening bad, I'll probably be fine with it.)

Poles as PA*WP makes sense for reasons that Dokurider said as well as additional one. It fixes the "problem" with Ivory Rod and it also gives Oracle incentive use the other MA-based weapons they have, though given how they get Wizard Staff, Wizard Rod, Faith Rod AND Ivory Rod, that might just keep using the +MA weapons. Also, Gokuu Rod and Octagon Rod might need their power reduced, especially the former since its 100% Innocent in hands of suddenly capable units that don't care about Innocent could be...problematic.

Speaking of Bow Gun, are we really fine with Shieldrender being Two-Handable if/when its Shield Break proc works since it essentially becomes "Double Hit: The 16 WP Sword" when the target doesn't have a Shield?


Quote from: FFMaster on June 19, 2013, 07:24:48 am
I remember the bug you are talking about now Damned. I remember talking to maybe fdc about it ages ago, and it could be linked to the fact that weapon formulas don't go through the Oil removal routine, which may or may not be tricky to enable for them.


Yeah, I figure it will be tricky even though I don't know about ASM coding since I'm still incompetent at it. I'd like to help, but...just see that tutorial with fdc where I'm asking stupid questions. Not much has changed.

Anyway, I just wanted you to be aware of it given the proposed changes to Oil would be hampered by that since a lot more units would start to live through being Oiled on initial strikes if weaknesses are only 1.5 multipliers.

Quote from: FFMaster on June 19, 2013, 07:24:48 am
Giving Bow gun the option to be 2 handed is a cool idea, I think we could run that for this new patch and see where it goes.


I concur, though I'm ultimately ambivalent for reasons I stated above. It would at the very least be a good back-up idea and I wouldn't be against it overriding the current weapon since it's less for you to "fix".
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 19, 2013, 08:16:55 pm
Genji Armor: 135 HP, Initial: Protect, Shell

Genji Helmet: Always: Berserk (Just making sure nothing obvious slips past us)

Shieldrender...I got nothing. Fix it, and we'll see the fireworks.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 19, 2013, 11:16:29 pm
SHIELDRENDER CASTS MELLY SKILLS NPNPNP
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 19, 2013, 11:30:13 pm
I'll admit it, I just wanna see this stupid thing in action. Once.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 20, 2013, 01:02:00 am
(Yeah, I don't [yet] have a solution for Shieldrender either, partly because everyone's been fixated on Bow Gun working when Shieldrender is potentially just as problematic.)

Amusingly, casting a Divine Knight Skill--if there, you know, was one that corresponded to Shields--wouldn't really have/be that significant a boost outside against people initially wielding shields. Actually, it would probably be a bit of a nerf since this theoretical Divine Knight skill--"Redlobster Crush?"--wouldn't be affected/boosted in damage by Two Hands, so....

But, yeah, like Dokurider, I'm slightly masochistic about this too despite the fact that I suspect Shieldrender will be a "tiny" problem even with the boost to Maintenance. Actually, especially with the boost to Maintenance since then Shieldrender will automatically default to "double-hit since the target doesn't have a shield [that can be rended]". [/crappy Sentinel voice]

Quote from: Dokurider on June 19, 2013, 08:16:55 pm
Genji Armor: 135 HP, Initial: Protect, Shell

Genji Helmet: Always: Berserk (Just making sure nothing obvious slips past us.)


Speaking of "slipping past", you forgot that people wanted to give it Block: Blind if Salty Rage got Block: Blind as well, apparently.

As for Genji Armor, I'm guessing that means it doesn't have the MP anymore? Regardless, I like that one better than "gimmick Iron Boots filler armor" if Raven's thing to by-pass the Item Attributes actually works (flawlessly).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 20, 2013, 02:05:18 am
1) It's my hack, not Ravens. Raven I'm pretty sure knows nothing about ASM hacking.

2) From all the tests I've done, they work perfectly.

3) Not liking Genji Helmet, I'll come up with something else unless someone thinks of something else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 20, 2013, 10:20:29 am
Monk changes:

Old Punch Art with new formulae
Monk with 70 Brave, 18 PA, Martial Arts
Repeating Fist: 212~297
Wave Fist: 191~267
Earth Slash: 170~238

New Punch Art with new formulae
Monk with 70 Brave, 17 PA, Martial Arts, 108 Gems
Repeating Fist Clay Fist: 244~341
Wave Fist Gale Fist: 219~307
Earth Slash Wave Palm: 195~273
Average damage boost: 30~50.

Take home message: Non-elemental Punch Art damage is shit.  Optimised Thieves push 250~340.  Optimised Ninja push 300~420.  Optimised Samurai push 320~440.  The 30~50 damage boost is modest, especially after considering that it is now susceptible to Thief Hat, Vanish Mantle, et cetera.

Elemental Punch Art provides an opportunity to build teams around PA-based absorption .  Previously, the only PA-based absorption is Ninjutsu, which is underwhelming compared to Black Magick and Draw Out.

On an related note, I'd like to bring the discussion back to Thief Hat before it was sidetracked by crap concerning Heaven's Cloud.  My idea is to transfer Thief Hat's water resistance to Green Beret to put an end to the hurr-durr Thief Hat - Black Costume combination.  Comments?  Complaints?  Insults?  Slander?  Places where I should stick it?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 20, 2013, 11:21:51 am
(Must resist urge to indulge in calumny and lies.)

I've already personally said that I think the Green Beret thing is a good idea, but I'll say again considering you're asking again and FFMaster is back now.

Admittedly, I'm still not sure if I "agree" with the way the elements were reshifted given all the "crap concerning" Heaven's Cloud, but I still need to decide what I ultimately think about said "crap".


Quote from: FFMaster on June 20, 2013, 02:05:18 am
1) It's my hack, not Ravens. Raven I'm pretty sure knows nothing about ASM hacking.

2) From all the tests I've done, they work perfectly.

3) Not liking Genji Helmet, I'll come up with something else unless someone thinks of something else.


1. I see. Apologies. I guess you just asked Raven to make the interface or something, which is why I got confused.

2. That is quite good to now.

3. Understood. Would you be fine with making Salty Rage "Always: Berserk; Immune: Blind" though? Because that thing is still horrible right now and it's only going to get worse if it's kept Initial while Berserk finally becomes finite (if that's [easily] possible).

I'll try to think of something else give Genji Helmet now that we have (a lot?) more room for Item Attributes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on June 20, 2013, 06:29:28 pm
There is *ALMOST* enough attribute space for each item. I think I'm about 10 short.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 20, 2013, 09:47:07 pm
How many attribute spaces are we about to use?

Quote3) Not liking Genji Helmet, I'll come up with something else unless someone thinks of something else.

Genji Helmet doesn't have to do something fancy. Immune: Blind and possibly Charm?

Shieldrender could either lose the Shield Break proc to gain Always: Transparent, Wind Elemental (Hidden Knife regains +1 Speed but lose Transparent. Say what you want about Ninjas, but having a Speed attribute weapon is pretty crucial: I'd sooner see Transparent disappear  :roll: then Speed + 1) or gains +1 Range, Wind Elemental.
Look ma, Invisible Air: Barrier of the Wind King


I think maybe Coral Sword is okay for now because it might find new life aiding Punch Art.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 20, 2013, 11:58:18 pm
(Wait, Gaignun. Is your version of Stone Gun still devoid of Initial: Petrify? Or is it meant to still have that and be Forced Two Hands, like what I think people actually meant?

Also, you missed giving Throwing Knife a slight WP boost.)

By my calculations, you'll be dead in seconds FFMaster actually isn't dipping too far beyond the current Item Attribute range at all yet, at least with what's been actually agreed upon on so far. We're only over by one and that's because of Sprint Shoes getting Immune: Slow (as it should) in addition to Speed +1. Provided we end up doing something like that Eldritch Staff idea and that Genji Helm(et) gets Block: Blind, then we'd only be over by three.

...Of course, there's still about three dozen things we haven't "officially" agreed with or even talked about item-wise:


1. Mage Masher.
2. Hidden Knife (since you're bringing it back up and I too still dislike Always: Transparent, though its current proposal is way more fair than it has ever been).
3. Iga Knife & Koga Knife (relative to the change of Aspergillium into Desert Rose).
4. Phoenix Blade.
5. Tactician's Blade?
6. Shieldrender.
7. Coral Sword (and Ice Brand? I mean, if we're talking about Swords with crappy/unfitting procs....)
8. Lionheart (& Rune Blade? That's a P-EV thing though, not an Item Attribute thing).
9. Heaven's Cloud & Masamune the katana (and maybe Koutetsu Knife too).
10. All Staves aside from Gold Staff and Mace of Zeus.
11. Desert Rose itself (though I guess I'm personally fine with this now).
12. Bow Gun (technically--so far only FFMaster, Dokurider and I have agreed on it becoming Two-Hand-able rather than "Lulz, Armor Break").
13. The (new) elemental Spears (though I was pretty sure we had agreed on these and they're not related to Item Attributes anyway).
14. All Poles.
15. All Cloths.
16. The possible addition of a new healing weapon (that would either combine with H Bag or P Bag or completely replace Mythril Gun, which would "merge" with Romanda Gun or...something).
16. Crystal Shield.
17. Thief Hat & Green Beret (again, I'm personally fine with Green Beret "stealing" Half: Water from Thief Hat, though would require another Item Attribute space, which we have now).
18. Genji Helmet (in actuality).


As you can see, most of that is weapon stuff, which means that fortunately we've actually mostly easily agreed about what armor and accessories should be becoming. [/uncharacteristic optimism]

Speaking of armor and accessories (and, I guess, shields), I'll probably try to count up that stuff by tomorrow, if only because of how I pissed I am discover to something when I was editing Jot5 videos earlier today.


Quote from: FFMaster on June 20, 2013, 06:29:28 pm
There is *ALMOST* enough attribute space for each item. I think I'm about 10 short.


I see. That is quite a marked boost.

Out of my usual, nosy curiosity, where are you getting (this much) space from (again)?


Quote from: Dokurider on June 20, 2013, 09:47:07 pmGenji Helmet doesn't have to do something fancy. Immune: Blind and possibly Charm?


Yes, Genji Helmet [or Cross Helm] blocking Blind and only Blind was the only useful thing I could think of, partly because I kept coming back to how "Cross Helmet" is really Close(d) Helmet, as in it guards you face. It really shouldn't block Charm, though, especially it would already "have" to lower end HP maybe just because of how powerful Grand Cross already is, especially if Excalibur, for some reason, is getting a boost since that would be the weapon that single-handedly benefits the most from this Helm.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 20, 2013, 09:47:07 pm
Shieldrender could either lose the Shield Break proc to gain Always: Transparent, Wind Elemental (Hidden Knife regains +1 Speed but lose Transparent. Say what you want about Ninjas, but having a Speed attribute weapon is pretty crucial: I'd sooner see Transparent disappear  :roll: then Speed + 1) or gains +1 Range, Wind Elemental.


As said above, I also agree about Hidden Knife, though I've said that from the beginning that no weapon needs Always: Transparent. While the gun's 100% accuracy is...annoying, that's at least what they do and they're all countered by Projectile Guard.

I'd think that Shieldrender becoming Wind elemental would potentially be great. It getting +1 Move and Wind elemental would just make it either redundant to or obviate Air Knife, which is bad; it's also a bad thing to give Tactician's Blade more competition if so few people are using it currently already. (Just like how I'm hesitant to strengthen Lionheart, even a bit, because of literally no one using Platinum Sword.)


Quote from: Dokurider on June 20, 2013, 09:47:07 pm
I think maybe Coral Sword is okay for now because it might find new life aiding Punch Art.


Shrug. Maybe.

It could still probably use a better proc though.


Agreed EDIT: Ugh. I kept leaving the "d" off of agree because I ended up making a phone call before I could really proofread. Also made some other omissions that are fixed now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 21, 2013, 04:00:46 am
Quote(Wait, Gaignun. Is your version of Stone Gun still devoid of Initial: Petrify? Or is it meant to still have that and be Forced Two Hands, like what I think people actually meant?

I'm pretty sure that Stone Gun will just go back to having Initial: Petrify if the Speed - 1 isn't going to be added. I wouldn't mind Forced Two Hands though.

QuoteAlso, you missed giving Throwing Knife a slight WP boost.)

He (and myself) thought that Throwing Knife doesn't need a WP boost because it's not a DPS weapon and doesn't really need the boost.

Cross Helmet doesn't need to block Blind because Grand Crossers already have enough options to block Blind through Angel Ring and Diamond Armor. Giving them MP and Blind protection is just making their job too easy.

QuoteAs said above, I also agree about Hidden Knife, though I've said that from the beginning that no weapon needs Always: Transparent. While the gun's 100% accuracy is...annoying, that's at least what they do and they're all countered by Projectile Guard.

I'd think that Shieldrender becoming Wind elemental would potentially be great. It getting +1 Move and Wind elemental would just make it either redundant to or obviate Air Knife, which is bad; it's also a bad thing to give Tactician's Blade more competition if so few people are using it currently already.


You seem to misunderstand my other alternative. It's not Move + 1, it's Range + 1, as in giving it Spear/Pole Range.
inb4 but that's should be masamune

Quote(Just like how I'm hesitant to strengthen Lionheart, even a bit, because of literally no one using Platinum Sword.)


Nothing wrong with Platina Sword in the slightest. Given Two Hands/Swords, it's one of the strongest weapons in the game period. It's just too bad it's losing to Katar. Katar isn't strictly better thanks to it's damage formula, but thanks to it's Move + 1, it's good enough for Thieves.

QuoteMore Coral Sword


If one really need a decent proc on Coral Sword, then how about...100% Knockback?

Why are we wanting to change one of the Ninjutsu to an Earth elemental again? There are a lot of anti Earth equipment out there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 21, 2013, 04:49:28 am
(Ask Gaignun about the Doton thing. I still have no idea why myself, especially since there's also an abundance of Earth techniques. I vaguely remember the switch being to get away from Thief Hat, but now that Thief Hat would be keeping Half: Earth & Half: Wind and yet not Half: Water if that goes to Green Beret....)

Back to not quoting things, because I can.


1. Stone Gun and Forced Two Hands: Yes, I figured as much as well. I just want to be sure since some people were originally talking about getting rid of Initial: Petrify and all the other equipment that's actually getting changed still has the original stats that aren't getting changed present as well.


2. Throwing Knife not getting WP: Okay, I guess. It's not one of the bigger or even moderate issues to me. I just remember some people complaining about its damage, especially since the A.I. is kinda dumb about ignoring units with Doom even if they're actively a threat still.


3. ShieldAir(r)ender and Range +1: ...Oh. I see. It's like a sword idea for my own patch, actually, only that was Water elemental. Having a Sword with 2 Range sounds really good actually, especially since it wouldn't be stepping any Spears or Poles. I (would) support that.


4. Close/Cross Helm and Genji Helm: Speaking of misunderstandings, you misunderstood me. I was saying I agree that Genji Helm would be good, great even, with just the simple idea of Immune: Blind. I then went on to mention, however, that if we were going by names, then since Cross Helm is supposed to be Close(d) Helm, then that should be the one to be Immune: Blind. I just didn't specify that I just thought that meant they should switch. As in, "Cross" Helm gets Immune: Blind while Genji Helm gets the current buffs planned for Cross Helm, meaning that Genji Helm becomes the only helm with MP. I didn't think I need to, but considering how much I tend to ramble and deviate, the confusion on your end is probably my fault.


5. 100% Knockback: I can't really support this since I've come to learn that a) 100% Knockback is kinda wonky as it is and b) the A.I. is rather rubbish at using it in most instances. It also wouldn't work against water tiles and it might accidentally kill units that the attacker is trying to heal since I'm pretty sure that weapon procs are on the list of the many things that the A.I. is blind to.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 21, 2013, 08:28:16 am
Yeah, the Stone Gun has Init: Petrify again.  I forgot to add it.

The Desert Rose/Doton thing was made for the sake of homogeneity.  With Titan (and potentially Clay Fist) becoming earth-elemental EV-ignoring skills, I felt that Ninjutsu should follow suit by having its soon-to-be-unevadable Suiton turn into Doton.  Turning Aspergillum into Desert Rose was a natural follow-up, given that Ninja has no more water skills.

You're right about there being many more earth skills than water skills, though, so I don't mind if Suiton stays as Suiton in spite of what I just said.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 21, 2013, 11:25:53 am
(*is annoyed at self between getting distracted by a game, then breezing through 40,000+ words of something and then realizing he forgot to something in the meantime*)

With regards to Stone Gun, I see. Good.

As for the Desert Rose thing, I'd actually support it now if, as I said on the last page already, the Koga Knife becomes Water elemental to compensate; Iga Knife would Strengthen Water instead of Earth. I think that would be for the best anyway since I can't really remember why Fire and Earth were chosen as the elements (to be strengthened) on those swords even with Flails already obvious corresponding to things; I know Raven's old reasons are around here still, but I'm too lazy look write now between being up all night like always and having to leave soon.

Of course, I said, even with the change to Thief Hat, with the switch-over to Doton, Thief Hat and Black Costume would still "wall" Ninja, especially with the needed nerf to Oil (and the boost to Maintenance). So....

For the record though, I'm all for Earth being the "unavoidable element" considering it's the only element that to deal with a Status and, because of said status, a Movement that completely negates it (outside of physical weapon strikes).


Quote from: Dokurider on June 21, 2013, 04:00:46 am
Nothing wrong with Platina Sword in the slightest. Given Two Hands/Swords, it's one of the strongest weapons in the game period. It's just too bad it's losing to Katar. Katar isn't strictly better thanks to it's damage formula, but thanks to it's Move + 1, it's good enough for Thieves.


I forgot to respond to this.

I'm not saying that Platinum Sword sucks horribly or anything like said of some things. Something can be good and still not be able to compete, i.e. the two other Harps compared to the current Bloody Strings.

Platinum Sword may be good, but right now it's only "on paper" since literally no one is using it or has ever even attempted to use it to my recollection. You know what's also had excellent damage at paper but hasn't ever been actually practical? Dual Rods.

To be honest, I'm not sure whether it's more or less telling that Platinum Swords haven't been used or worked compared to those things considering Platinum Swords are melee classes while Dual Rods. However, I also know that we're not doing that sword any favors by boosting its competition of Lionheart while giving it more competition in Slasher and Katar & other competitors to it still existing.

So you'll excuse me if I remain skeptical until someone actually, you know, uses it and gets somewhere.

*looks at upcoming tournament*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 27, 2013, 04:39:55 am
I think Wind should gain a Head item that strengthens it. This is what I meant earlier on when I said "make Wind more like Holy" but I didn't elaborate on it because I decided I needed to to consider what I was going to say. Originally, I was going to suggest making it a hat attribute, maybe give it to Green Beret. The only problem is that this makes Air Knife really OP because it frees up Air Knife Thief's accessory and that's all kinds of bad. So instead, make it a Helmet attribute. That way, it powers up Heaven's Cloud (Draw Out and Katana) without unbalancing Air Knife and Windslash Bow (to a lesser extent). It would also help Shieldrender (if people like the idea of making it Wind Elemental), and whatever the Wind Elemental Punch Art skill's going to be when used by Armored Classes..

"Why do this for the sake of two, possibly three weapons and two skills (and maybe Tornado if you like running it on Samurai)?" you're asking. Compare that to Holy Elemental's coverage of three skills and two weapons, it's actually even. Even Dark only has 7 skills to be boosted, maybe 8 if you're counting Death.

As for what Helmet should get Strengthen: Wind, I think Mythril Helmet would be a fine candidate. Of course, if it absolutely has to be a hat, make it Flash Hat.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Torgo on June 27, 2013, 05:55:08 am
Quote from: The Damned on June 21, 2013, 11:25:53 am
Platinum Sword may be good, but right now it's only "paper" since literally no one is using it or has ever even attempted to use it to my recollection.

Is that so.

I'm probably the least qualified person to do it, but I am going to do it. I can always dig on trying to figure out how to make use of underused or underappreciated stuff.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 27, 2013, 11:52:34 am
If you insist on using something underused or underappreciated you can create a unit with Black Magic secondary.  I don't think anyone has done that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 27, 2013, 01:17:01 pm
(Ugh, it's so annoying to notice an omission or typo even after you proofread yet only after someone else quotes you. At least it was only minor this time, but it still...rankles me.)

I'm pretty sure people have used Black Magick Secondary, if only in the SSC tournament where I'm sure both Celdia and Vigilanti's teams used it for Death. I'm pretty sure people have used it before and after that though even if, yeah, it's still not that common, which I guess is why you also added "underappreciated".

Speaking of "underappreciated", I'll try to do that count up of other equipment by the end of today at least given I'm not going anywhere.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 27, 2013, 04:39:55 am
I think Wind should gain a Head item that strengthens it. This is what I meant earlier on when I said "make Wind more like Holy" but I didn't elaborate on it because I decided I needed to to consider what I was going to say. Originally, I was going to suggest making it a hat attribute, maybe give it to Green Beret. The only problem is that this makes Air Knife really OP because it frees up Air Knife Thief's accessory and that's all kinds of bad. So instead, make it a Helmet attribute. *snip*


Oh, I see. I guess I could get behind that, but it would definitely have to a) be on a Helmet rather than a Hat for reasons of Air Knife and, to a far less degree, Windslash Bow and b) not be on Mythril Helmet since no other piece of armor both strengthens elements and blocks status.

Why not have Strengthen Wind on the new Genji Helmet, actually? In fact, why not have the new Genji Helmet Strengthen: Wind & Earth at least (since both are presumably still going to be halved by Thief Hat) and maybe even Water (since Green Beret presumably is getting Halve: Water)? After all, strengthening something, while strong, still pales in comparison to halving it (unless Oil rears its hideous head).

(Of course, giving it strengthen Water would probably also be "bad" considering then female Samurai with Whale Whiskers would suddenly have free accessory slots. This when they are already hitting for like 400~ damage with the current max damage set-ups.)

Meanwhile, if we're implicitly talking about improving Mythril Helmet, then that could really stand to lose Immune(l): Slow anyway given it's been redundant to Platina Helmet like...forever. This especially with how much Time Mage & its Time Magick has sucked and how no one is using Ice Bow or either Heaven's Cloud anyway. Instead, what about giving Mythril Helmet "Immune: Stop & Blind"?

Regardless of what we do, this would be a hell of a lot easier to figure out if we were sure about the fate of Heaven's Cloud as a whole since even with strengthen both form of it are still probably going to suck in presently--more so the ability than the katana. The same goes for not having figured out what's happening with Crystal Shield, the whole "elemental neutralizer" aspect of it & Rainbow Staff and some other (Wind, Earth and Water element) abilities & weapons; oh, and if Cursed Ring is going to get some elemental shuffling alongside losing +Sp 1.

(Actually, I just realized something: With the possible changes to reduce Oil's damage, isn't the elemental neutralizer aspect now going to be impossible [FFMaster]?)


Quote from: Torgo on June 27, 2013, 05:55:08 am
Is that so.

I'm probably the least qualified person to do it, but I am going to do it. I can always dig on trying to figure out how to make use of underused or underappreciated stuff.


Hey, go for broke, Bayonetta. Otherwise, no one else is probably going to use Platinum Sword anytime soon, if ever.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 03:06:51 am
Quote
Why not have Strengthen Wind on the new Genji Helmet, actually? In fact, why not have the new Genji Helmet Strengthen: Wind & Earth at least (since both are presumably still going to be halved by Thief Hat) and maybe even Water (since Green Beret presumably is getting Halve: Water)? After all, strengthening something, while strong, still pales in comparison to halving it (unless Oil rears its hideous head).

(Of course, giving it strengthen Water would probably also be "bad" considering then female Samurai with Whale Whiskers would suddenly have free accessory slots. This when they are already hitting for like 400~ damage with the current max damage set-ups.)

Yeah Whale Samurai with open accessory slots are bad news, but more importantly, Water doesn't need the help so much anymore. Coral Sword just needs some help taking off. Said helmet also doesn't need to carry Strengthen: Earth either. In addition to making Kikuichimonji (katana, but both really) really powerful. Plus Earth Clothes are phenomenal for Earth. Only Wind warrants this treatment.

QuoteMeanwhile, if we're implicitly talking about improving Mythril Helmet, then that could really stand to lose Immune(l): Slow anyway given it's been redundant to Platina Helmet like...forever. This especially with how much Time Mage & its Time Magick has sucked and how no one is using Ice Bow or either Heaven's Cloud anyway. Instead, what about giving Mythril Helmet "Immune: Stop & Blind"?

I don't mind Cancel: Stop, Blind in the slightest. I approve. Anyways, tell us when you're done playing Shell Games with our helmets for the sake making sure the little item graphics make sense with the attributes.

QuoteRegardless of what we do, this would be a hell of a lot easier to figure out if we were sure about the fate of Heaven's Cloud as a whole since even with strengthen both form of it are still probably going to suck in presently--more so the ability than the katana. The same goes for not having figured out what's happening with Crystal Shield, the whole "elemental neutralizer" aspect of it & Rainbow Staff and some other (Wind, Earth and Water element) abilities & weapons; oh, and if Cursed Ring is going to get some elemental shuffling alongside losing +Sp 1.

I'm not really sure who else you need to speak up for you to call majority, there's only like, three or four people participating in this thread right now. Cursed Ring losing it's Holy immunity and +1 Speed, and nothing else, was considered a good idea by everyone. Too bad I've lost track of what the fuck happened with Heaven's Cloud. Just drop it's Add: Slow proc so it can be readily absorbed and call it a day if nothing else can be agreed on. Giving Crystal Shield statuses protection sounds like the only viable option at this point other than just sending it to the graveyard with Escutcheon I.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on June 28, 2013, 03:41:23 am
fdc's used Platinum Swords, and I feel like one other person might've as well. But I know fdc did for sure.

Cancel: Stop, Blind on Mythril Helmet sounds great! I like it.

I'm fine with a helmet getting Strengthen: Wind.

/unhelpful
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 05:08:04 am
After looking over the weapons list for Dark weapons, I realized the only Dark Weapons in the game already self strengthen, so I had the idea to make Iron Fan Dark elemental at 12 WP. That way, it doesn't compete with Dragon Whisker if Poles gain that PA | MA * WP formula or just become straight up PA * WP.

And finally, I had the best idea ever for Coral Sword, like ever. It loses Strengthen: Water, but gains Add: Reflect @ 50%. This is seriously awesome in that this can seriously mess up Spell teams, but it also has a dual use of adding Reflect to teammates when they absorb Water. Best of all, it has powerful synch with Water spells, because Water spells ignore Reflect! It's absolutely perfect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 28, 2013, 08:44:15 am
We should do something about Phoenix Blade.  Playing against Phoenix-Blade teams is like playing a neverending game of whack-a-mole.   During testing, I've encountered 2v2 situations where one team is unable to finish the battle because the other team keeps reviving on the next clock tick.  Currently, the only counter is Weapon Break, and once Maintenance is switched to a movement ability, there won't even be that.  Mind if we scratch Phoenix Blade's Undead resistance?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 28, 2013, 09:38:34 am
I think we should do that yes. Especially since if you give the Phoenix Blade unit Jade Armlet which prevents petrify. Couple that with maintenance then that's a very sturdy unit that is a bitch to take out
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 28, 2013, 10:52:02 am
(Seemingly no one was using Platinum Sword presently until Torgo yesterday, CT5Holy, and as far as I can tell, even fdc isn't using any either in the teams he hasn't edited in like...nine months. So it would have to either be before 1.38 or something I overlooked.)

Phoenix Blade will probably ultimately just have to die, even if I'm personally (reluctantly) willing to give it one more chance without Quickening around like I said months ago. Even making it vulnerable to Undead isn't going to change much. It's just going to over-centralize the metagame even more towards inflicting, taking advantage of and dealing with Undead status, which is actually pretty difficult to inflict presently since all of two things do that. While seeing more Book and Yin-Yang Magic use (for things other than Paralyze or Petrify) in general would be nice, I doubt it would really change anything since removing Immune: Undead isn't going to make the enemy A.I. any less stupid about dealing with two Phoenix Blades. This in addition to the fact that the Zombie spell at least has to contend with the fact that most Phoenix Blade users have low-end Faith anyway.

That said, no, I don't mind. Again, I'm horribly biased against that sword nowadays though.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 03:06:51 am
Yeah Whale Samurai with open accessory slots are bad news, but more importantly, Water doesn't need the help so much anymore. Coral Sword just needs some help taking off. Said helmet also doesn't need to carry Strengthen: Earth either. In addition to making Kikuichimonji (katana, but both really) really powerful. Plus Earth Clothes are phenomenal for Earth. Only Wind warrants this treatment.


I suppose so. Kikuichimonji, the katana, really requires higher MA and higher Faith though, which armored units tend not to have, on top of being range 1. Still, it probably would be a bit much, even with Float negating its proc and the ability.

I'd be fine with "just" Strengthen: Wind on Genji Helm I guess despite arguably the same argument could be made for Heaven's Cloud with Two Hands becoming "too powerful", even if, yeah, that doesn't have Tornado procs or anything like Kikuichimonji dies.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 03:06:51 am
I don't mind Cancel: Stop, Blind in the slightest. I approve. Anyways, tell us when you're done playing Shell Games with our helmets for the sake making sure the little item graphics make sense with the attributes.


*shrugs*

I was never demanding or even suggesting we switch Cross Helm's stats with whatever helm got Immune: Blind, if anything even did. I was just saying that it would make more "sense" considering what "Cross" is actually supposed to be since I'm kinda like Elric apparently and "OCD" about things like that, especially in my own patch; that's all.

That said, I of course wouldn't be against switching Cross Helm to get Immune: Blind & Stop with Mythril Helm becoming the MP helm, especially since Mythril is supposed to be magickal anyway. It's just not terribly important to me. (Compared to me, say, continuing to tear my hair out over "Ramia Harp" still being misspelled after all these versions, especially when "Oberisk" and other things got fixed.)


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 03:06:51 am
I'm not really sure who else you need to speak up for you to call majority, there's only like, three or four people participating in this thread right now. Cursed Ring losing it's Holy immunity and +1 Speed, and nothing else, was considered a good idea by everyone.


I just wanted to make sure, especially considering I feel guilty about talking so much as it is and Gaignun hadn't noted it in the 1.39 changes thread last time I had checked.

Since we're talking about Cursed Ring, I "have" to ask: Are we fine with it still being weak to Fire, even with how easy that is for (current) Cursed Ring users to cover that weakness and it giving an edge to the already powerful Fire element? If it's losing "Null: Holy", then perhaps it gets "Weak: Holy" instead? Especially since White Magick already kicks the Undead's ass and gives the two other classes with anti-Undead techniques a boost against them, especially since Consecration is horrible against Cursed Ring; it would get more people to use Cyclops potentially though, even if surprisingly that's already seeing moderate use.

It's difficult to tell whether "Weak: Holy" instead of "Weak: Fire" would be a buff or a nerf though between Blaze Gun, even with it becoming Nether Fire-firing, and Fire element having the most AoE overall. Shrug.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 03:06:51 am
Too bad I've lost track of what the fuck happened with Heaven's Cloud. Just drop it's Add: Slow proc so it can be readily absorbed and call it a day if nothing else can be agreed on.


I guess. Even with Genji Helm potentially getting "Strengthen: Wind", it just seems like Heaven's Cloud is still going to be...underwhelming, even with the current Slow getting in the way of absorb...on the ability. Slow is still going to get in the way on the katana and Heaven's Cloud the ability will still have to compete with Asura--whatever the hell is actually happening with that--and Koutetsu at the very least.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 03:06:51 amGiving Crystal Shield statuses protection sounds like the only viable option at this point other than just sending it to the graveyard with Escutcheon I.


Indeed.

We just haven't decided on what statuses would be good yet, especially since Immune: Oil is at least somewhat agreed to not be enough. That also doesn't really have anything to do with what ultimately happens to Rainbow Staff or the elemental neutralizing aspect or three of the others staves. None of us can currently agree on anything with regards to Staves outside of two things: that Gold Staff needs the most evasion & maybe most WP and that Mace of Zeus probably shouldn't change.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 05:08:04 am
After looking over the weapons list for Dark weapons, I realized the only Dark Weapons in the game already self strengthen, so I had the idea to make Iron Fan Dark elemental at 12 WP. That way, it doesn't compete with Dragon Whisker if Poles gain that PA | MA * WP formula or just become straight up PA * WP.


I'd be up for that considering that there's only two Dark type weapons in the ARENA anyway: Koutetsu Knife and Sadist's Whip. Neither of those see much use--Koutetsu Knife sees none, actually, just like Iron Fan currently sees none.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 05:08:04 am
And finally, I had the best idea ever for Coral Sword, like ever. It loses Strengthen: Water, but gains Add: Reflect @ 50%. This is seriously awesome in that this can seriously mess up Spell teams, but it also has a dual use of adding Reflect to teammates when they absorb Water. Best of all, it has powerful synch with Water spells, because Water spells ignore Reflect! It's absolutely perfect.


That's actually...a pretty good idea, even if Water (the spell) can get rid of Reflect.

I'd be all up for that, even if it might mean that Coral Sword might need a bit of an WP buff. It's difficult to tell though, especially since it currently sees basically no use.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 28, 2013, 12:45:15 pm
I wasn't aware of that we wanted Cursed Ring to lose Null:Holy.  It's added now.  Also, I went ahead and made P-Bag heal on hit.  If anyone disagrees with this, please let me know. 

I'm ambivalent toward the Coral Sword change.  50% Add: Reflect is going to destroy teams that use White and Black Magick for support, given that Reflect lasts forever and is viewed as a positive buff.  If we're going to go ahead with this, I recommend making the proc no higher than 33%.  A WP buff is fine, too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 28, 2013, 02:26:12 pm
Maybe give Platinum Sword one mroe WP so it'd be a viable choice for two handed or dual wielding?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 02:33:05 pm
QuoteI just wanted to make sure, especially considering I feel guilty about talking so much as it is and Gaignun hadn't noted it in the 1.39 changes thread last time I had checked.

Since we're talking about Cursed Ring, I "have" to ask: Are we fine with it still being weak to Fire, even with how easy that is for (current) Cursed Ring users to cover that weakness and it giving an edge to the already powerful Fire element? If it's losing "Null: Holy", then perhaps it gets "Weak: Holy" instead? Especially since White Magick already kicks the Undead's ass and gives the two other classes with anti-Undead techniques a boost against them, especially since Consecration is horrible against Cursed Ring; it would get more people to use Cyclops potentially though, even if surprisingly that's already seeing moderate use.

It's difficult to tell whether "Weak: Holy" instead of "Weak: Fire" would be a buff or a nerf though between Blaze Gun, even with it becoming Nether Fire-firing, and Fire element having the most AoE overall. Shrug.

Giving it weak:Holy would be worse via redundancy, not better. White Magic already mops the floor with Cursed Ring, and 95% of all White Magic users have Raise/Raise 2. All it would do is power up a check that didn't need the powering up at the cost of screwing everyone else over. That being said perhaps adding an additional weakness would be okay. I would nominate Holy for the next weakness because a) Payback's a bitch. b)It wouldn't cause that big of a paradigm shift because of the sheer lack of Holy weapons and non-White Magic spells. The other candidate I would recommend would be Ice.

QuoteAlso, I went ahead and made P-Bag heal on hit.  If anyone disagrees with this, please let me know.

No problems here.

QuoteI'm ambivalent toward the Coral Sword change.  50% Add: Reflect is going to destroy teams that use White and Black Magick for support, given that Reflect lasts forever and is viewed as a positive buff.  If we're going to go ahead with this, I recommend making the proc no higher than 33%.  A WP buff is fine, too.

Fair enough.

Speaking of adding Positive Buffs, I have another suggestion in the vein. In addition to becoming Dark Elemental, Iron Fan should also also add: Float at 50%. Similarly to adding Reflect, it screws up Earth Absorb teams by removing their ability to absorb and making allies immune to Earth.

QuoteMaybe give Platinum Sword one mroe WP so it'd be a viable choice for two handed or dual wielding?

Eh, the last weapon we let be Double handed at 13 WP was Air Knife. Then again, there's a world of difference between Platina Sword and Air Knife.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on June 28, 2013, 05:07:36 pm
(I'm not really sure if Cursed Ring needs another weakness, but it's something to potentially keep in mind I guess. I was just pondering out loud considering I wasn't sure the Null: Holy thing was happening at all until earlier today.)

Yeah...no. Swords already got a shit-load of buffs that like half of them didn't really need. I'd rather slightly nerf Lionheart before buffing Platinum Sword, partly because I have no idea how to buff with it stepping on something else that's already not seeing much use also.

That said, the Air Knife comparison isn't that apt though since current Air Knife can be strengthened beyond Two Hands by both Strengthen: Wind and Oil. Platinum Sword will never have that.



Quote from: Gaignun on June 28, 2013, 12:45:15 pm
I wasn't aware of that we wanted Cursed Ring to lose Null:Holy.  It's added now.  Also, I went ahead and made P-Bag heal on hit.  If anyone disagrees with this, please let me know.


The Null:Holy thing only came up about a week or two ago, so it's unsurprising you missed it.

As for the P Bag, that's fine with me. The only other real candidate among the bags was  H Bag and that would maybe conflict with what Healing Staff may or may not be getting. Additionally, this gives P Bag a more consistent buff that it arguably "needs", what with Always: Regen being completely nullified by Poison.

That said, I'd still be up for adding another healing item that could, you know, actually heal for decent damage. After all, making P Bag heal basically is just buffing it so that A.I. wouldn't stupidly attack with it like other Bags rather than creating another item that can actually heal.

Quote from: Gaignun on June 28, 2013, 12:45:15 pmI'm ambivalent toward the Coral Sword change.  50% Add: Reflect is going to destroy teams that use White and Black Magick for support, given that Reflect lasts forever and is viewed as a positive buff.  If we're going to go ahead with this, I recommend making the proc no higher than 33%.  A WP buff is fine, too.


A legitimate point I guess even if I feel like White Magick could use some type of check as I've said and one entire element of Black Magick is unaffected, with the other having dubious side-effects on absorption anyway.

Still, 33% Add: Reflect and, what, 10 WP for Coral Sword sounds reasonable.


Quote from: Dokurider on June 28, 2013, 02:33:05 pm
Speaking of adding Positive Buffs, I have another suggestion in the vein. In addition to becoming Dark Elemental, Iron Fan should also also add: Float at 50%. Similarly to adding Reflect, it screws up Earth Absorb teams by removing their ability to absorb and making allies immune to Earth.


I'd also back this additional change to Iron Fan.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 29, 2013, 05:53:43 am
In vain of this idea I suggested, (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg187324#msg187324) (Wiznaibus losing the ability to damage altogether in turn for adding Poison and maybe Oil) I had another brainstorm about Singing and Dancing and I came up with a way to buff some unused Songs/Dances.

Nameless Song gains the ability to cancel Berserk, Frog, Undead and Death Sentence @ 40%.  No longer adds statuses.

This way, Nameless Song would act as a Status Protection spell. It would become really handy for protecting units that can't afford status protection. Meanwhile, it's current incarnation has ever been truly helpful.

Last Dance gains 25% of adding Dead.

Yeah CT 00 isn't getting us anywhere, so let's kick it up a notch, huh? Losing turns isn't as strong as gaining turns huh? Then how about losing your life?

I was discussing Life Song with FFM and I came away with the conclusion that Life Song isn't actually weak, but it's held back by it's parity with Wiznaibus and people just lost confidence in it. I think with another (minor) buff, and a little faith on the players' part, I think Life Song can be just as a good healing option as Cure or Item or any other healing spell out there.

Finally, I think the MP costs of the various songs and dances need to be adjusted to reflect their actual usefulness instead of being a flat 5 MP. I know Slow Dance could use an MP increase.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 30, 2013, 07:28:34 pm
Actually scratch that Wiznaibus idea. Instead of fixing Wiznaibus, change Autopotion so that it only triggers on attacks that deal more than it can heal. That way, not only does that fix Wiznaibus' main problem, it also has the additional benefit of making Bags no longer complete and utter liabilities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 30, 2013, 08:12:12 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on June 30, 2013, 07:28:34 pm
Actually scratch that Wiznaibus idea. Instead of fixing Wiznaibus, change Autopotion so that it only triggers on attacks that deal more than it can heal. That way, not only does that fix Wiznaibus' main problem, it also has the additional benefit of making Bags no longer complete and utter liabilities.

I don't know what flags are available for the triggers for Autopotion but Wiznaibus is almost useless because of that one reaction.  PA/MA saves, and even HP RESTORE can be gotten around with proper team building.  If there was a way that Autopotion wouldn't trigger from Wiznaibus then that would greatly increase that ability's usefulness.

EDIT TO ADD: Does Projectile Guard work while charging?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 30, 2013, 11:08:35 pm
QuoteEDIT TO ADD: Does Projectile Guard work while charging?

Yes
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andante49 on July 01, 2013, 02:42:00 am
Just a thought, making the Float status weak to wind so you have to "pay" for the immunity to Earth. Also in the same vein giving the elemental clothes a weakness that is hard to cover since the 20 HP price doesn't seem comparable to having two absorbs.

For Example:
Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind Weak: Dark
Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark Weak: Earth
Rubber Costume - Absorb Lightning, Water Weak: Fire

/my2cents
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 01, 2013, 03:11:57 am
We used to have "Float:weak air" but removed it.  I don't know the specific reasoning but Float is such a marginal status as it is, making it weaker to air would be detrimental to its use.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 01, 2013, 04:41:12 am
Yeah Float basically exists to counter balance the natural strength of the Earth element. It's strength mainly comes from Kikuimonji and Earth Slash, two abilities that allows Earth users to attack, heal and ultimately control a lot of ground, all in the same action, that makes it truly powerful. Even with Float's existence, Earth teams can still heal each other from across the map, while using other attacks to get around Float. Earth is the most powerful element to absorb in the game and that shouldn't be taken away from them. *hint hint leave Earth Slash as Earth Slash*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Torgo on July 01, 2013, 05:47:36 pm
Quote from: reinoe on June 27, 2013, 11:52:34 am
If you insist on using something underused or underappreciated you can create a unit with Black Magic secondary.  I don't think anyone has done that.


Opal
Female
Serpentarius
70
70
Samurai
Black Magic
Counter Magic
Magic Attack UP
Move MP Up
Chirijiraden
Circlet
Linen Robe
Magic Gauntlet

Kikuichimoji, Heaven's Cloud, Murasame, Masamune
Water, Water 2


The talk about Earth and Float is timely, because my original idea was to have her Two Swords it up with Chirijiraden (strengthen: Earth) and Kikuichimoji (33% Quake), than give her either Float or Diamond Armlet. That's a little too points intensive though, leaving little room for proper Black Magic, let alone a reaction or movement ability. In the end the weapon pairing is probably better suited for a Ninja with Equip Katana than a Samurai with Two Swords (which I don't mind saying is an idea I was kicking around when I first started putting my tournament team together).

I'm a little torn on if a Linen Robe is the best option. She's starving for MP and my original choice was Robe of Lords, but the HP boost on it leaves something to be desired and all that MP won't do her any good if she keeps getting knocked out. I tried workshopping a Black Robe and a Kiyomori, focusing more on general elemental damage, but it's middling HP and MP boosts seem to offer the worst of both.

The question remains if the AI will make use of Water, but outside of any proper mage class a female Samurai is the best bet if you want to secondary some Black Magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 01, 2013, 06:52:19 pm
Bitch I'll do you one better:
Female
40
70
Samurai
Black Magic
Counter
Magic Attack Up
Move MP Up
Muramasa

Circlet
Silk Robe
Defense Ring
Murasame
Ice, Water

Sup?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Torgo on July 01, 2013, 07:58:03 pm
Pshh, Heaven's Cloud's already got your Slow proc covered, and more stylishly at that. And that Defense Ring is great... if you're a wiener that's afraid of status effects. And Muramasa? Pfft. :P

I'll grant that she'd school mine in a 1v1, if only because of the Defense Ring and Faith proc, but in a real fight... hah.

But no seriously the Defense Ring is actually a solid idea. Dat Absorb: Water. And I can feel only having Murasame for Draw Outs... or at least omitting Masamune. I kind of go crazy every time a freshly revived unit goes straight for the Haste buff only to die again right after.

I do like the idea a lot though: A little tankier, countering with a guaranteed Faith proc and falling back with a nuke, presumably laughing the whole way.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 05, 2013, 12:00:37 am
(...Or you could just have them both on the same team given how well they complement each other and given how much reinoe would like to see more people use Black Magic[k] as a secondary apparently. Just saying.)

Hmmmm...this makes me want to try another stab an all-Samurai team (for 1.39a), especially since I realized that much of the problem with the other one that Barren effortlessly kicked the ass of was a) using the currently suicidal Salty Rage and b) trying to rely on Song-boosting yet again. Hell, I was tempted to make an all-Bard team for the tournament just to prove how dumb current Bloody Strings can be given how high Magic Song is and really doesn't need to be.

Alas, I couldn't decide on a fourth unit I liked since I still needed more resurrection & AoE and already had one unit using Item. [/crap no one cares about]

Anyway, I figure I might as well respond to this stuff before I take a walk since I'm not going anywhere today apparently otherwise. As such, I'll probably try to get up the equipment count that I promised a while ago--of course--as well as the ability count since it's not like my neighborhood assholes are going to let me sleep anytime soon this fine fourth of July. (I say this as someone has already been setting off really loud fireworks/explosives even though it's not even dark. [/disdain for humanity and bullshit holidays])



Quote from: Dokurider on June 29, 2013, 05:53:43 am
In vain of this idea I suggested, (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg187324#msg187324) (Wiznaibus losing the ability to damage altogether in turn for adding Poison and maybe Oil) I had another brainstorm about Singing and Dancing and I came up with a way to buff some unused Songs/Dances.


The more I think about it, the more I think that going either with your 66% All or Nothing Poison dance or a 50% Random Poison or Oil dance is better than my initially suggested All or Nothing 50% Poison & Oil dance. Wiznaibus as it stands now really does need to die, but the problem is replacing it with something that a) is actually useful, b) isn't overpowered or broken and c) doesn't step on the toes of anything else.

While a 66% Poison dance in a vacuum would probably be a good idea, it makes the already unused (effectively) Poison spell of Wizard even crappier, which seems..."bad".

Quote from: Dokurider on June 29, 2013, 05:53:43 am
Nameless Song gains the ability to cancel Berserk, Frog, Undead and Death Sentence @ 40%.  No longer adds statuses.

This way, Nameless Song would act as a Status Protection spell. It would become really handy for protecting units that can't afford status protection. Meanwhile, it's current incarnation has ever been truly helpful.


I'm...not sure how to feel about this, though I will admit it's not an entirely horrible idea.

I still say that letting Nameless Song have the ability to also add Haste in addition to the other statuses (maybe minus Reflect or Reraise) would a) get the A.I. to actively use it and b) definitely see it getting use.

If your above change were to happen, I would like to see it still be usable if the user is Frogged. There should be a way to do that (that I still haven't tested...).

Quote from: Dokurider on June 29, 2013, 05:53:43 am
Last Dance gains 25% of adding Dead.

Yeah CT 00 isn't getting us anywhere, so let's kick it up a notch, huh? Losing turns isn't as strong as gaining turns huh? Then how about losing your life?


Gods, no. By Odin, please no. Especially since Last Dance would probably still be Mimic-able, which would just lead to stupidity even if, yes, quite a few things block Dead. I'd rather not reduce the metagame to "Last Dance: Block it or Die!" even as much that would see it get more use.

Given it and Last Song should have never been that low to begin with, I think boosting it back up should be fine. Especially since it would probably be obnoxious if it was back to 50%.

(Damn. Maybe I should have made a team around Last Dance for the tournament, even if my luck with Dancers, Dance and other things that would make Last Dance "obnoxious" tend to be crap....)

Quote from: Dokurider on June 29, 2013, 05:53:43 am
I was discussing Life Song with FFM and I came away with the conclusion that Life Song isn't actually weak, but it's held back by it's parity with Wiznaibus and people just lost confidence in it. I think with another (minor) buff, and a little faith on the players' part, I think Life Song can be just as a good healing option as Cure or Item or any other healing spell out there.


Life Song could still probably use a bit of a boost and possibly stand to get its CT shortened to 5, though, since no one of the curing spells are that slow and everything else heals more. Hell, the Lores can be Short Charged and hit the enemy while also probably curing for more than Life Song with absorb, in addition to also not leaving the unit vulnerable through performing. So...yeah. I know a bunch of people found Life Song annoying when it was CT 4, especially with Mimes, but it could probably stand to be faster than CT 6 too, especially since Mimes aren't reliable.

Quote from: Dokurider on June 29, 2013, 05:53:43 am
Finally, I think the MP costs of the various songs and dances need to be adjusted to reflect their actual usefulness instead of being a flat 5 MP. I know Slow Dance could use an MP increase.


I completely agree with this. Slow Dance needs an increase in MP, as do Battle Song & Magic Song, especially if they stay at 66% rate instead of going back to 50% where they were already fine; Polka Polka & Disillusion need to always be cheaper than them though just because those abilities are so much harder to use and "should" always be less accurate anyway.

I'm not sure about the other Songs and Dances though, especially since we're talking about changing them:


1. Wiznaibus: Pretty much everyone agrees its current form needs to die.

2. Witch Hunt: I know I personally thought it could be slower (at CT 5) given people tend to agree that it could stand to cause MP loss. I don't think it needs an MP boost though, given Bizen Boat is free (though I've thought that Bizen Boat could may be nerfed "more" recently....). It also probably doesn't need an MP reduction given Magic Ruin costs 6 MP.

3. Nameless Dance: I still say this should lose Oil and get around to adding Don't Move instead, though that was partly dependent on the changes to Wiznaibus, so....

4. Angel Song: Probably the only Song that doesn't need a boost of ability or any change. Carbunkle only costs 5 MP, so....

5. Cheer Song: This could probably stand to be reduced to CT 8 given the A.I. will stop using it intelligently once the user starts to outspeed the resolution. With CT 10, that means a meager 10 Speed before the user just...keeps resetting the Song most likely. Reducing it to CT 8 (or even 9), would boost that to Speed 13 (or 12), which seems a lot more worthwhile, especially since it would no longer be effortlessly obviated by Quickening. Its MP would definitely have to increase, though, just because +1 Sp is really powerful (as I said when Quickening was first introduced).

6. Nameless Song: The current Nameless Song plus Haste could probably stand to be slightly more expensive than or equal to Protect & Shell in MP costs given those spell sees no real use.

7. Last Song: This could probably stand to be slightly more expensive than Last Dance even with their similar boosts just because, yeah, Quick tends to be a lot stronger than CT 00.


As a whole, Sing could probably be stand to be more MP expensive than Dance, especially if we're not making Sing subject to Silence, given that Sing has access to MP restoration while Dance...doesn't; well, that and I still say Sing is overall more flexible and "better" than Dance. (Hunh. I just now realized that Bards have less MP than Dancer.)


Quote from: Dokurider on June 30, 2013, 07:28:34 pm
Actually scratch that Wiznaibus idea. Instead of fixing Wiznaibus, change Autopotion so that it only triggers on attacks that deal more than it can heal. That way, not only does that fix Wiznaibus' main problem, it also has the additional benefit of making Bags no longer complete and utter liabilities.


Meh. That seems both like a pain in the ass and unnecessary given that a) Wiznaibus would still suck compared to Lore even with Auto Potion, especially with Mimes becoming able to equip things in 1.39a, and b) Bags deserve to be "liabilities" for their ubiquity and flexibility.

Not that I'd mind the change, really, especially just to know the amount of difficulty it took to get done, but, again, "meh".


Quote from: Andante49 on July 01, 2013, 02:42:00 am
Just a thought, making the Float status weak to wind so you have to "pay" for the immunity to Earth.


Again, "meh". For one thing, Float status is viewed a positive status, which is why I've always been hesistant at adding an outright weakness to Wind even if it makes "sense". Besides, Float doesn't make you completely immune to Earth since you can still be smacked in the face by Earth-element weapons for neutral damage. It only makes you immune to Earth element (non-weapon-based?) abilities, which as Dokurider has pointed out, are all pretty damn good (except maybe the current Titan and even that's been shown to be threatening by Jumza).

Quote from: Andante49 on July 01, 2013, 02:42:00 am
Also in the same vein giving the elemental clothes a weakness that is hard to cover since the 20 HP price doesn't seem comparable to having two absorbs.

For Example:
Santa Outfit - Absorb: Ice, Wind Weak: Dark
Black Costume - Absorb: Fire, Dark Weak: Earth
Rubber Costume - Absorb Lightning, Water Weak: Fire

/my2cents


I suppose that you have something of a point about 20 HP not being enough, even if ignoring the current state of Oil. Given the fact that I argued that the dual-absorb Clothes "needed" MP and that Oil's severity is likely getting reduced, though, the dual-absorb Clothes could probably stand to 10 more MP even if they don't strengthen at all or self-strengthen like Earth Clothes.

Maybe.

*shrugs*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 05, 2013, 12:21:14 am
Considering that Wiznaibus spam teams(circulus terestris, Depletion Dance, SYTYCD) actually have a winning record I'm convinced that ability needs to die because it's borderline OP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 05, 2013, 01:03:58 am
QuoteI'm...not sure how to feel about this, though I will admit it's not an entirely horrible idea.

I still say that letting Nameless Song have the ability to also add Haste in addition to the other statuses (maybe minus Reflect or Reraise) would a) get the A.I. to actively use it and b) definitely see it getting use.

If your above change were to happen, I would like to see it still be usable if the user is Frogged. There should be a way to do that (that I still haven't tested...).


The thing is, the FFT engine can't handle adding and canceling statuses in a single instance, FFM confirmed. So a song and dance can either only add statuses or remove them.

As for Frog, I forgot that Frog immunity isn't covered by Defense Ring, too bad there isn't much in the way of a replacement. Cancel: Silence would hurt Silence too much IMO and Sleeping units can't even be effected by Songs and Dances. So other than Don't Move, I don't really know what else could be the 4th status to cancel. Everything else either wears off too quickly, could be applied too quickly to make a real difference, or just don't deserve it. We could remove Sleep's Song/Dance immunity, but I'd rather see if it even works and works well first.

QuoteMeh. That seems both like a pain in the ass and unnecessary given that a) Wiznaibus would still suck compared to Lore even with Auto Potion, especially with Mimes becoming able to equip things in 1.39a, and b) Bags deserve to be "liabilities" for their ubiquity and flexibility.

Not that I'd mind the change, really, especially just to know the amount of difficulty it took to get done, but, again, "meh".


I'm absolutely certain once FDC gets back from his trip, he'd be happy to pound out that hack, given that he's already modifying other reactions with even more complex triggers than a simple less than damage conditional. Furthermore, he'd probably be interested in such a hack for his own patch anyways. As for bags, I think that bag users are punished enough by wasting turns moving into combat and meleeing with a worthless weapon. I'd be willing to cut them a break if it meant making Wiznaibus better. Lore vs Wiznaibus is still a problem, but removing the Auto Potion obstacle helps considerably. An adjustment to Lore (dual-elemental, taking Clothes away from Mimes) might even make things close to level.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 05, 2013, 04:55:09 am
(...So of course I fall asleep almost immediately after I get back, if by immediately, we mean "an hour".

I'll save the equipment and ability "write-up" stuff for when/if I actually get my Internet back in the next 12 hours.)

Well, it's not like Wiznaibus teams can't win even if the opponent doesn't have Auto-Potion.

It's merely that of all strategies, Wiznaibus is the one most reliant on Mimes to Mimic it so that's it actually a threat. "Depletion Dance" is probably the only exception to the rule like, ever, and despite the fact that I don't think I've ever seen it fight yet, I'd bet that Wiznaibus being there is more incidental to victory than the cause of it when you have two powerful Cover Fire-bots and broke-ass Kagesougi. It also helps that Wiznaibus there is on a 40/40 bait-Paladin when currently 40/40 units are still tough as hell to take down given how little Nether Magic or -tons are used currently and when Wiznaibus is not affected by Brave/Fury/Whatever.


Quote from: Dokurider on July 05, 2013, 01:03:58 am
The thing is, the FFT engine can't handle adding and canceling statuses in a single instance, FFM confirmed. So a song and dance can either only add statuses or remove them.


Uh...I'm well-aware that. Horribly well aware of that given I think I reported on that within the first year of being here.

I meant adding Haste to the current Nameless Song statuses, not to your idea. As in, making it either a five-status ability or giving Add Haste in addition to Protect or Shell at the cost of either losing the ability to add Reraise or Reflect, both while still being a Random 50% ability.

Either that or your current initial proposal seems like it would be a marked improvement over the current Nameless Song, which isn't...horrible, but the A.I. will not use it proactively and then it will refuse to shut the hell about it a lot of the time. The second aspect is somewhat why I'm hesitant about allowing it to add Haste, but meh--letting it add Defending as initially mused months back would be even worse.

Regardless, I'm not sure where your confusion lies. Perhaps because I didn't make the antecedent of "it" clearer?


Quote from: Dokurider on July 05, 2013, 01:03:58 am
As for Frog, I forgot that Frog immunity isn't covered by Defense Ring, too bad there isn't much in the way of a replacement. Cancel: Silence would hurt Silence too much IMO and Sleeping units can't even be effected by Songs and Dances. So other than Don't Move, I don't really know what else could be the 4th status to cancel. Everything else either wears off too quickly, could be applied too quickly to make a real difference, or just don't deserve it. We could remove Sleep's Song/Dance immunity, but I'd rather see if it even works and works well first.


Again, I'm not sure what exactly you're replying in given what I actually typed, especially since antecedent trouble doesn't explain this.

I meant that I'm fine with it curing Frog if we went with that version, just that I think it "should" be usable while the unit itself is Frogged; it's not mandatory or anything. So curing Frog is fine.

Anyway, the status is I'm more skeptical about it curing is Doom/Death Sentence, if only because of the A.I. tending to ignore it so blatantly as it is, Reraise & it not canceling each other and the fact that this healing could be done from anywhere on the map. Then again, given the proposed hit rate and the fact that any team that "should" actually be using Death Sentence tends to be at least somewhat durable enough to take those "free hits", it would probably be fine.

Maybe.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 05, 2013, 01:03:58 amI'm absolutely certain once FDC gets back from his trip, he'd be happy to pound out that hack, given that he's already modifying other reactions with even more complex triggers than a simple less than damage conditional. Furthermore, he'd probably be interested in such a hack for his own patch anyways. As for bags, I think that bag users are punished enough by wasting turns moving into combat and meleeing with a worthless weapon. I'd be willing to cut them a break if it meant making Wiznaibus better.


*shrugs*

Don't get me wrong. I can see the possible merits, especially with Auto Potion's healing rate being lowered. I just...am lukewarm to the idea and also don't think it will ultimately fix what's wrong with Wiznaibus.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 05, 2013, 01:03:58 amLore vs Wiznaibus is still a problem, but removing the Auto Potion obstacle helps considerably. An adjustment to Lore (dual-elemental, taking Clothes away from Mimes) might even make things close to level.


Except that (I still say) making Lore dual-elemental doesn't change anything and taking Clothes away from Mimes sure as hell won't stop Mime-Lore given they'll still have access to shields, accessories and, arguably most importantly now, RSMs. So they can just use Equip Clothing anyway, if they even need to, even if, yeah, that means not being able to use Magic Attack UP or Overwhelm or whatever to boost Lore further.

Still, that's not enough to stop Lore from beating the shit out of Wiznaibus in its current form since basically all that Wiznaibus over Lore was that it didn't kill Mimes allies and that it could never be absorbed. With the major one of those gone....

Regardless of Lore's most likely eventual resurgence as an extreme pain in the ass,, it would probably help if FFMaster posted what he's actually doing with Mimes' stats in 1.39(a).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 06, 2013, 05:38:09 pm
As someone who highly enjoys Lore I hope it remains the same, but that's just my bias talking. 

Quote from: Dokurider on July 05, 2013, 01:03:58 am
An adjustment to Lore (dual-elemental, taking Clothes away from Mimes) might even make things close to level.


Mimes with clothes and shields?  The memcard generator and the Master Guide both state that Mimes don't have the ability to equip any items or abilities, so am I missing something or are you just talking about the supporting characters other than the Mimes?  If I'm missing something I need start using me some Mimes... if your just worrying about the supporting characters I don't see the merit for nerfing Clothes in general.

Quote from: The Damned on June 28, 2013, 05:07:36 pmStill, 33% Add: Reflect and, what, 10 WP for Coral Sword sounds reasonable.


If Coral Sword receives this change and Aspergillum receives the boot or changes, I believe this would make water the only element to not have some sort of weapon or equipment that solely boosts itself.


Fire: Asura Knife, Koga Knife (1.39 change), Rod
Ice: Rod
Lightning: Mace of Zues, Rod
Wind: Spiked Futon
Earth: Iga Knife (1.39 change), Earth Clothes
Light: Excalibur
Dark: Kotetsu Knife, Sadist's Whip


Sure you could always just equip a Giant Axe,Prismatic Rod, or something but it just doesn't seem right.

What if we did something along the lines of this?


Diamond Armor: 120 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA
Platina Armor: 115 HP, Immune: Berserk, Darkness, Poison, Don't Move
Carabini Mail: Removed from the game
Aqua Vest: HP 90, MP 20, Absorb: Water, Strengthen: Water


It basically just combines Platina and Carabini into Diamond (which creates some nice synergy with Diamond Armlet) and gives the immunities to Platina which matches it's Helms theme.  By getting rid of Carabini Mail it would make room for the Aqua Vest.

By the way... I just realized Diamond Armlet and Helm contradict each other.  Why do we have float on Diamond Helm again... and how does a helmet make somebody float in the first place???
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 06, 2013, 07:37:46 pm
QuoteUh...I'm well-aware that. Horribly well aware of that given I think I reported on that within the first year of being here.

I meant adding Haste to the current Nameless Song statuses, not to your idea. As in, making it either a five-status ability or giving Add Haste in addition to Protect or Shell at the cost of either losing the ability to add Reraise or Reflect, both while still being a Random 50% ability.

Either that or your current initial proposal seems like it would be a marked improvement over the current Nameless Song, which isn't...horrible, but the A.I. will not use it proactively and then it will refuse to shut the hell about it a lot of the time. The second aspect is somewhat why I'm hesitant about allowing it to add Haste, but meh--letting it add Defending as initially mused months back would be even worse.

Regardless, I'm not sure where your confusion lies. Perhaps because I didn't make the antecedent of "it" clearer?



You and your fancy grammar.

Nameless Song could add Haste and Wall and it'll still not be viable. It already adds Reraise, it doesn't get much better than that. I just don't think anyone wants unreliable random buffs, especially given how often death occurs. Even if you built sturdy units to keep those buffs, they'd still be better served by Battle/Magic Song or Slow Dance. Nameless Song as is, just doesn't give you any kind of real solid advantage it seems like. Not enough to slot a unit to spamming it exclusively.

QuoteAgain, I'm not sure what exactly you're replying in given what I actually typed, especially since antecedent trouble doesn't explain this.

I meant that I'm fine with it curing Frog if we went with that version, just that I think it "should" be usable while the unit itself is Frogged; it's not mandatory or anything. So curing Frog is fine.

Anyway, the status is I'm more skeptical about it curing is Doom/Death Sentence, if only because of the A.I. tending to ignore it so blatantly as it is, Reraise & it not canceling each other and the fact that this healing could be done from anywhere on the map. Then again, given the proposed hit rate and the fact that any team that "should" actually be using Death Sentence tends to be at least somewhat durable enough to take those "free hits", it would probably be fine.

Maybe.

Yeah lemme rephrase my statement:

I don't think we just devote hacking time to an idea that while I'm confident will work out, may actually not. It would suck to have an ASMer pound this out only to turn around and find out it was a bad idea in hindsight. I'd rather just jury-rig Don't Move or something in Frog's place for now until we can confirm that this change to Nameless Song is any good via testing, in particular, how the AI handles such a spell. It should handle it OK, but you never know with the AI.

As for Death Sentence, the enemy AI ignores DS units, but ally AI will always try to cure DS if it can. It's just, there isn't much the AI can do about DS aside from Refute and adding Reraise. There are no skills that cure DS outright.


Quote
Mimes with clothes and shields?  The memcard generator and the Master Guide both state that Mimes don't have the ability to equip any items or abilities, so am I missing something or are you just talking about the supporting characters other than the Mimes?  If I'm missing something I need start using me some Mimes... if your just worrying about the supporting characters I don't see the merit for nerfing Clothes in general.


Mimes are going to gain the ability to equip items and RSM come next update. It's not a thing now, but it will be in 139 guaranteed. It's just it's potential effects with Lore are less than thrilling (unless you're on the Mimic Loring side of course).

If Coral Sword receives this change and Aspergillum receives the boot or changes, I believe this would make water the only element to not have some sort of weapon or equipment that solely boosts itself.

Asparagus Flail isn't going anywhere. It's most likely going to stay Water. It was only going to be changed to reflect the possible changes to the -tons the Flails complement. So Aqua Vest isn't necessary. That being said, combining Platina/Carabini Armor isn't the worst idea ever, I just don't see a reason to do so right now, I mean, we are already having trouble coming up with Armor ideas, we don't need more empty armors to fill.

By the way... I just realized Diamond Armlet and Helm contradict each other.  Why do we have float on Diamond Helm again... and how does a helmet make somebody float in the first place???


Same reason a Perfume makes you tougher or come back from the dead once while preventing you from falling asleep or turning into a frog or drives you completely insane or how a harp can not only damage you but can heal the user for the same amount of damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 06, 2013, 09:43:42 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on July 06, 2013, 07:37:46 pm
Mimes are going to gain the ability to equip items and RSM come next update. It's not a thing now, but it will be in 139 guaranteed. It's just it's potential effects with Lore are less than thrilling (unless you're on the Mimic Loring side of course).


I could have sworn in a different hack I played Mimes were able to equip but I'm not sure I've ever experienced any RSM Mimes before.  Sounds like fun!  I'll definetely have to test my Lore team with at least 1 Mime.  It'll probably be built like MA Save, Magic Attack Up, Move-MP Up.  But we'll have to see how the stats for the Mimes change though as The Damned stated.  Hopefully they turn out something like this:


Male
HP: 154
MP: 57
SP: 8
PA:10
MA: 8
Move: 4
Jump: 3
C-EV: 10

Female
HP: 144
MP: 61
SP: 8
PA: 8
MA: 10
Move: 4
Jump: 3
C-EV: 10


Quote from: Dokurider on July 06, 2013, 07:37:46 pm
That being said, combining Platina/Carabini Armor isn't the worst idea ever, I just don't see a reason to do so right now, I mean, we are already having trouble coming up with Armor ideas, we don't need more empty armors to fill.


Most of the armors are extremely boring...  There's got to be something we could do to make one at least a little exciting.  I still like the combined Diamond Armor so how about changing up the Carabini Armor.  How does something like this sound?


HP 100, Initial: Petrify, Wall, Half: Fire, Earth


With the correct setup, a unit equipped with this would be capable of wrecking havoc the first couple turns (especially on small maps, not so much on large).  But when Wall passes they'd still have a somewhat decent buff in targeted magic resistance.  The HP gain is just an estimate, I'm not quite sure exactly how much an armor like this should receive.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 06, 2013, 07:37:46 pm
Same reason a Perfume makes you tougher or come back from the dead once while preventing you from falling asleep or turning into a frog or drives you completely insane or how a harp can not only damage you but can heal the user for the same amount of damage.


*Decapitates a Cursed Ring Paladin wearing a Diamond Helm*
Head, I'm a floating head.  And I float float float, and I float float float.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 06, 2013, 10:14:47 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on July 06, 2013, 07:37:46 pmThat being said, combining Platina/Carabini Armor isn't the worst idea ever, I just don't see a reason to do so right now, I mean, we are already having trouble coming up with Armor ideas, we don't need more empty armors to fill.


There's no need to fill armor slots that need no filling.  Combining Carabini and Platina armors won't reduce options; it'll consolidate them.  People are usually interested in boosting only PA or MA.  This way, they'll just select the same piece of armor in both cases.  You're right in saying that there's little reason to do it, though.

If Mimes' stats and innates aren't nerfed, then I strongly suggest giving Mimes only RSM, and perhaps accessories.  This might increase the prevalence of the rarely-used "Equip X" abilities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 06, 2013, 11:13:25 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on July 06, 2013, 10:14:47 pm
There's no need to fill armor slots that need no filling.  Combining Carabini and Platina armors won't reduce options; it'll consolidate them.  People are usually interested in boosting only PA or MA.  This way, they'll just select the same piece of armor in both cases.  You're right in saying that there's little reason to do it, though.


I can't tell if you'd be okay with Carabini/Platina combination or would rather keep them the same?  "Consolidating" as a concept is usually a good thing so...

I don't see an issue with combining those two armors when they only grant a +1 to PA/MA.  If they had +2s, such as Wizard Outfit, Robe, or Power Sleeve I would understand.  But opening up another slot for something besides just a simple +1 would increase the potential for new builds and creativity.

In the first place, I only brought up the new armor because of the possibility of water loosing it's singular equipment buff, but decided to just keep rolling with the Diamond Armor meets Armlet design because it just seemed to make sense.  It in no way needs to be implemented, but I think it wouldn't hurt none the less.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 06, 2013, 10:14:47 pm
If Mimes' stats and innates aren't nerfed, then I strongly suggest giving Mimes only RSM, and perhaps accessories.  This might increase the prevalence of the rarely-used "Equip X" abilities.


I wouldn't be surprised if they lost all of their innate abilities.  Their potential would be incredible if they got to keep Concentrate and be able to equip Attack Up/Magic Attack Up and have Move-HP Up and Move-MP Up at the same time.

And their stats will get nerfed no matter what.  Starting at an innate 413/386 for HP and still being able to equip hats,clothes, or whatever we decide to give them, would be ludicrous.  It would be the funniest thing in the world to see a team struggling against a Iron Boots tank Lore Mime, but I'd rather forgo that atrocity. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 06, 2013, 11:32:57 pm
Mimes starting at 413/386+CLOTHES wouldn't even be that bad given their penchant for getting themselves murdered by trying to recreate the "Leeroy Jenkins" video.

Regarding Mimes and their possible fate, I do know FFMASTER has occasional "sneak previews" for what he's doing with 1.39 so you can always stop in and see what's going on.

The +1 bonus to Carabini/Platina armor is done for the sake of balance.  Wizard Robe/Outfit/Power Sleeve grant +2 but also have less HP.  The +2 for those two armors would make Samurai particularly unbalanced.

Still it's always good to bring up ideas because you never know what people are thinking.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 07, 2013, 12:03:59 am
Quote from: reinoe on July 06, 2013, 11:32:57 pm
The +1 bonus to Carabini/Platina armor is done for the sake of balance.  Wizard Robe/Outfit/Power Sleeve grant +2 but also have less HP.  The +2 for those two armors would make Samurai particularly unbalanced.

Still it's always good to bring up ideas because you never know what people are thinking.


Oh I know, I never suggested increasing the bonuses to those two armors, that would be ridiculous.

Quote from: reinoe on July 06, 2013, 11:32:57 pm
Mimes starting at 413/386+CLOTHES wouldn't even be that bad given their penchant for getting themselves murdered by trying to recreate the "Leeroy Jenkins" video.


That's what Move-1, Move=0, Iron Boots, and possibly even Genji Armor is for.  Stops them right in their tracks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Torgo on July 07, 2013, 12:39:30 am
Combining Platina and Carabini Mail would definitely be a boon to any Paladins or Samurai that want to get their Elemental on. How that would work in practice I have no idea, but it's always worth keep in mind that while most characters are interested in just PA or MA, anyone using Elemental is most definitely interested in anything that increases both.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 07, 2013, 01:24:59 am
If I recall correctly, I thought someone brought up returning Geomancy skills to 5 Rng, it's still incredibly difficult to increase their damage output, and is situational based on terrain.  If anything, Elemental is probably one the biggest abilities in need of these buffs.  I'm sure another decent armor choice wouldn't hurt none.

I could see an Elemental Samurai working pretty well, it's not that far off from a Black Magic Samurai.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Torgo on July 07, 2013, 02:54:36 am
Yeah, Male Samurai seems best suited if you're looking for a balance of PA and MA (9/9). Actually, taking a quick glance it looks like Samurai is a better base period for Elemental.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 07, 2013, 02:37:38 pm
The thing is, Elemental requires a lot more MA stacking than trying to have an MA/PA balance. Andante's Geomancer unit deals a ton of damage with Elemental because he was able to stack so much MA, something that an Armor class could never do in the first place. A +1 MA/PA would be a bandaid on that issue.

If you want to fill in an armor idea, Genji Armor is still open. I suggested a 135 HP armor with initial: Protect/Shell, which is a decent idea, but I don't think it'll ultimately hold water to the other armors or even Reflect Mail.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 07, 2013, 02:59:36 pm
I don't think you'd use the armor to make a powerhouse Elemental user in the first place.   It would be more of a hybrid thing for male samurai, particularly for boosting attack power and Murasame healing at the same time.  Alternatively, it could be used for book users that use Equip Armor... if book users existed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 07, 2013, 04:28:10 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on July 07, 2013, 02:37:38 pm
The thing is, Elemental requires a lot more MA stacking than trying to have an MA/PA balance. Andante's Geomancer unit deals a ton of damage with Elemental because he was able to stack so much MA, something that an Armor class could never do in the first place. A +1 MA/PA would be a bandaid on that issue.


It's because of the way the multipliers work for MA correct?  Still, it would be possible to build a decent Female Elemental Samurai with something like this:


40-50
40-50
Samurai
Elemental
Counter Flood
Magic Attack Up
Move-HP Up
Kiyomori

Circlet (or better yet combining Circlet and Barbuta)
Platina Armor (or new Diamond Armor)
Cursed Ring

Chirijiraden
Pitfall, Water Ball, Hell Ivy, Carve Model, Local Quake, Kamaitachi, Demon Fire, Quicksand, Sand Storm, Blizzard, Gusty Wind, Lava Ball

HP: 379
MP: 46
SP: 9
PA: 8 (9-10)
MA: 16
Move: 3
Jump: 3
WP: 10WP
Evade: 20 17 1
Magic Evade: 0


Looks pretty legit to me.  Neither Draw Out or Elemental need Fury or Faith so we can keep them down to minimum (the only reason to increase them is to increase your odds of CF).  Tanky, deadly, and undead to boot so it keeps coming back.  I see no problem whatsoever with elemental samurai.  If you double up on this unit, you could even change Chirijiraden for Koutetsu for possibly healing.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 07, 2013, 02:37:38 pm
If you want to fill in an armor idea, Genji Armor is still open. I suggested a 135 HP armor with initial: Protect/Shell, which is a decent idea, but I don't think it'll ultimately hold water to the other armors or even Reflect Mail.


Personally, I find that version of Genji Armor much more usable than it's current form.  I haven't found one reason to use Genji Armor over Iron Boots or even Move=0.  Give that to a unit with a tone of resistances or defense up and a lot of move, possibly PA/MA Save to make it an even bigger threat... I would be down to testing that. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 07, 2013, 05:27:22 pm
Bump Wizanabus to 3xPA  and make it boostable with Attack up and Overwhelm but also make Defense up Unyielding and Protect reduce the damage it does.   
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andante49 on July 07, 2013, 06:28:54 pm
Quote from: JamesOnyx on July 07, 2013, 04:28:10 pm


40-50
40-50
Samurai
Elemental
Counter Flood
Magic Attack Up
Move-HP Up
Kiyomori

Circlet (or better yet combining Circlet and Barbuta)
Platina Armor (or new Diamond Armor)
Cursed Ring

Chirijiraden
Pitfall, Water Ball, Hell Ivy, Carve Model, Local Quake, Kamaitachi, Demon Fire, Quicksand, Sand Storm, Blizzard, Gusty Wind, Lava Ball

HP: 379
MP: 46
SP: 9
PA: 8 (9-10)
MA: 16
Move: 3
Jump: 3
WP: 10WP
Evade: 20 17 1
Magic Evade: 0


Looks pretty legit to me.  Neither Draw Out or Elemental need Fury or Faith so we can keep them down to minimum (the only reason to increase them is to increase your odds of CF).  Tanky, deadly, and undead to boot so it keeps coming back.  I see no problem whatsoever with elemental samurai.  If you double up on this unit, you could even change Chirijiraden for Koutetsu for possibly healing.


She'd have 105 damage elementals and a 189 Chiri. Scary? Yes but, without covering Cursed Ring's weaknesses she's OHKO'd by a 70 faith strengthened magic attack up Blaze Gun not to mention ~80% Consecrations and ~70% Seal Evils.

The best elementals I've come up with are from a 10/16 Bard with magic attack up and 108 gems for 156 (126 for the non-elemental ones).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 07, 2013, 06:50:05 pm
Quote from: JamesOnyx on July 07, 2013, 04:28:10 pm
It's because of the way the multipliers work for MA correct?  Still, it would be possible to build a decent Female Elemental Samurai with something like this:


40-50
40-50
Samurai
Elemental
Counter Flood
Magic Attack Up
Move-HP Up
Kiyomori

Circlet (or better yet combining Circlet and Barbuta)
Platina Armor (or new Diamond Armor)
Cursed Ring

Chirijiraden
Pitfall, Water Ball, Hell Ivy, Carve Model, Local Quake, Kamaitachi, Demon Fire, Quicksand, Sand Storm, Blizzard, Gusty Wind, Lava Ball

HP: 379
MP: 46
SP: 9
PA: 8 (9-10)
MA: 16
Move: 3
Jump: 3
WP: 10WP
Evade: 20 17 1
Magic Evade: 0


Looks pretty legit to me.  Neither Draw Out or Elemental need Fury or Faith so we can keep them down to minimum (the only reason to increase them is to increase your odds of CF).  Tanky, deadly, and undead to boot so it keeps coming back.  I see no problem whatsoever with elemental samurai.  If you double up on this unit, you could even change Chirijiraden for Koutetsu for possibly healing.


Elemental damage output without combining: 105
Elemental damage output after: 126

Magic Attack Up

Kiyomori

Barbuta (+1 PA/+1 PA/MA)
Wizard Robe
108 Gems

8 PA
15 MA

Elemental Damage Output: 125 or 130

The point I'm trying to make here is that it's not a significant change. Not in DPS and not enough to try to come up with another armor concept for a measly 21 gain in damage for one kind of build. And I wouldn't really call a Cursed unit tanky, not with Raise weakness and no self healing. It just doesn't really help all that much. If we really wanted to increase Elemental's damage output, we would just give it another +2 or +3 to it's constant and it would do exactly the same thing, only more helpful to builds with less than optimal configurations for Elemental

Quote from: Malroth on July 07, 2013, 05:27:22 pm
Bump Wizanabus to 3xPA  and make it boostable with Attack up and Overwhelm but also make Defense up Unyielding and Protect reduce the damage it does.   


With a 20 PA Dancer, you will be dealing 60 damage per instance. With two of them going at the same time? 120 per instance. With two mimes? 360 damage per instance. Yeah no.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 07, 2013, 06:56:56 pm
thats 2 mimes and 2 glass cannons maxPA no defense at all dancers vs a no protect no defense up no autopotion no HP restore team.  A glass cannon team SHOULD be able to beat another glass cannon team in 1 round.

Edit
Vs a 70/40 unit wit Unyielding and autopotion that 60 damage per hit will be down to 4 damage per hit after the 44 average healing you get from a 55% autopotion.
I'd even be in favor of subjecting it to PEV  so Abandon monsters can get in on the fun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 07, 2013, 07:14:53 pm
Quote from: Andante49 on July 07, 2013, 06:28:54 pm
She'd have 105 damage elementals and a 189 Chiri. Scary? Yes but, without covering Cursed Ring's weaknesses she's OHKO'd by a 70 faith strengthened magic attack up Blaze Gun not to mention ~80% Consecrations and ~70% Seal Evils.


I don't like to bring up Blaze Gun because that thing is a pure abomination, as are most of the elemental guns (aren't they getting nerfed?).  I only picked up the curse ring because of the potential for a "reraise" on top of the bonus +1 PA/MA, but others I thought were likely candidates were red shoes, reflect ring, magic ring, diamond armlet, and of course 108 gems.

Again with me just making these characters on the spot and not testing them before posting... I found that MA Save was truly the Reaction ability I should have given her after all.  I replaced Chirijiraden with Koutetsu on the Curse Ring build, and gave her Murasame on any other.  It significantly increased her damage output.  Not to mention damage isn't all what Elemental is about, you want to pull off some hacks and inflict some pretty nasty statuses too.

Quote from: Andante49 on July 07, 2013, 06:28:54 pm
The best elementals I've come up with are from a 10/16 Bard with magic attack up and 108 gems for 156 (126 for the non-elemental ones).


Oh I've already made a couple Bards just like that myself, I totally agree with you that those are amazing.  But this was just a test to see if a somewhat competent armored Elemental could be made.  It's not impossible.  (The samurai was at a 10/16 as well if the helms and armor applied +1/+1s)

Quote from: Dokurider on July 07, 2013, 06:50:05 pm
The point I'm trying to make here is that it's not a significant change. Not in DPS and not enough to try to come up with another armor concept for a measly 21 gain in damage for one kind of build. And I wouldn't really call a Cursed unit tanky, not with Raise weakness and no self healing. It just doesn't really help all that much. If we really wanted to increase Elemental's damage output, we would just give it another +2 or +3 to it's constant and it would do exactly the same thing, only more helpful to builds with less than optimal configurations for Elemental


This isn't what the armor was originally brought up for, it was just an on the spot idea of how it could be applied.  But speaking of increasing Elemental's damage output, I'd be all for that.  Just saying.

But if making new armors is really that much of a hassle, which is what I originally brought up the subject for so we wouldn't have two slots being wasted on +1s, then I can just leave it at this.  It was just a simple suggestion, nothing more.

Quote from: Malroth on July 07, 2013, 06:56:56 pm
thats 2 mimes and 2 glass cannons maxPA no defense at all dancers vs a no protect no defense up no autopotion no MP restore team.  A glass cannon team SHOULD be able to beat another glass cannon team in 1 round


I'm sorry, if the meta became that fast, I would probably stop playing.  That's an extremely simple setup for a team that could possibly kill in a single round.  There are other setups out there that can accomplish such a task, but they actually require the team to, you know, actually move to do it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 07, 2013, 08:07:33 pm
I wouldn't mind if Wiznaibus and Witch Hunt were subject to Overwhelm or Attack UP, in fact I initially thought they were.  But it doesn't really matter how much damage Wiznaibus does, because Autopotion will ruin it in nearly every context.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 07, 2013, 08:35:10 pm
If, after boosting wizanabus can top 45 damage  then it has reached the point where it is viable despite autopotion because it is either outdamaging the Autopotion on and average unit or forcing the other team to run higher Brave/Faiths to increase how often Autopotion goes off.  Forcing a 12 PA unit to equip an extra 3PA worth of gear to reach this point seems a fairly safe balance point.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 07, 2013, 10:40:32 pm
(Speaking of Mimes....)

I don't want to interrupt the Elemental talk that I only skimmed and I'll reply to Dokurider at least when I return, but I might as well put this forward before I go on a walk:


Given how Lore is undoubtedly going to become broken in 1.39 even if we jump through hoops trying to stop it from being as easily used with Mimes that now won't kill themselves by Mimicking it, can we just agree that Mimes shouldn't be able to Mimic anything that hits the entire map anyway?


This would also, intentionally, affect all of Song & Dance, given how dumb those get when Mimed, but not other spells in Lore, even if the current forms of Tornado & Quake are at least slightly overpowered. Well, that and this new Druid support might make Mimes just as dumb (if Mad Science honestly is being made into AoE 1 ability, ugh).

Because, really, Mimes really need to be incentivized to be used as something other than Sing-bots or Dance-bots as it is and this would sure as hell help out Polka Polka & Disillusion, even if Battle Song & Magic Song stay at 66%. (I still think they should go back to 50%, but this would make them more bearable. It also might mean that Last Song and Last Dance would be fine going [back] up to 50%; I am not sure about that yet though.)


P.S. Regardless of that, I still think Wiznaibus should completely change over just because it's not going to be able to compete with Lore when/if Mimes are able to Mime Lores.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 08, 2013, 01:08:13 am
I've already made a Lore/mime team already   autopotion still stops it cold
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 08, 2013, 01:31:48 am
Quote from: Malroth on July 08, 2013, 01:08:13 am
I've already made a Lore/mime team already   autopotion still stops it cold


Auto-Potion shouldn't hurt Lore that much.  I have a setup that does at least 80-100 damage off of Maelstrom, and with Auto-Potion dropping down to healing 70 HP (and only occasionally no less), you should be able to power through it.  As a note, no team should be able to accumulate 300-500 damage across the map that easily anyways.

(3 Scholars + 1 Mime equals OH my GAWD)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 08, 2013, 02:40:29 am
Before I elaborate on what Damned/Malroth and everyone else said, I'm going to ask this for tonight:

In light of Oil being unable to be activated in the same action it is applied (Short Edge/Elemental weapon combos), do you guys think it's okay for Short Edge's proc to become 100%? Or should it stay the way it is?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 08, 2013, 08:02:44 pm
(Yeah...I don't buy that Malroth, even before the reasons that JamesOnyx pointed out. Please post said team and what team(s) you tested against with it and then we'll talk.)

Wait, when did that "come to light", Dokurider?

Regardless, right now I have to err on the side of caution, as always, and say that it should remain at 50% for three reasons:

1. The fate of Oil's actual changes are dubious enough right now.
2. The fate of Hidden Knife is still up in the air really.
3. Ninja are getting a hell of a lot of boosts overall when they are already a great class, even if the bulk of that "goodness" is just due to three things: innate Two Swords, Hidden Knife and Kagesougi.


All that combined with Oil's other coding issues--and I mean this more in general sense rather than anything that I know FFMaster did--make me hesitant to make it 100%.


Quote from: JamesOnyx on July 06, 2013, 05:38:09 pm
If Coral Sword receives this change and Aspergillum receives the boot or changes, I believe this would make water the only element to not have some sort of weapon or equipment that solely boosts itself.


Good point. Admittedly, I was under the impression that we were letting Coral Sword keep Strengthen: Water though between the Desert Rose thing maybe happening and the fact that even WP 10 with self-strengthen isn't that impressive. This especially since we were mostly debating the proc was what sucked and the fact that as potentially big an FU to mages as it is, XX% Reflect is still...not that impressive against the majority of classes.

As for the Aqua Vest thing, it and of itself, it's not a bad idea, but my reply to it is essentially what Dokurider said.

Speaking of armor though, I had a thought: Why don't we just bring back +1 Sp armor for Genji Armor (or Caribini Mail)? Would that really "break" anything, especially when there's no +1 Sp helmet and if it had the least HP of all the heavy armor pieces?


As with Crystal Shield, I still can't think of any other solution presently. (Well, besides Dokurider's suggestion, which I vaguely remember FFMaster saying he didn't like, though I could be wrong.)


Quote from: JamesOnyx on July 06, 2013, 05:38:09 pm
By the way... I just realized Diamond Armlet and Helm contradict each other.  Why do we have float on Diamond Helm again... and how does a helmet make somebody float in the first place???


Because Diamond Helm is secretly a failed Flying Guillotine. This is why it's also the only helmet that lets you "survive" Battle Axe's currently inane Decapitate proc: it's that bad at ripping people's heads off.


Quote from: Dokurider on July 06, 2013, 07:37:46 pm
You and your fancy grammar.

*Nameless Song stuff*


Dokurider, you already know that flattery will get you nowhere with me, even if one was assuming that was flaterry.

As for Nameless Song's current iteration being untenable, hmmm...you make a good argument there. Even if Haste were added, as you say, it's the necessary randomness of things that makes it unusable, especially with Iron Will, Mad Science and the various buffing status accessories around and with Wall being buffed by necessity.

As such, between that and your point about Death Sentence indeed having nothing to cure, I can back that idea. I still don't really understand your point about needing to wait when it comes to Cancel: Frog, though, especially when Don't Move already has enough problems as it is being used outside of Hunting Bow without something else to cancel it.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 06, 2013, 10:14:47 pmIf Mimes' stats and innates aren't nerfed, then I strongly suggest giving Mimes only RSM, and perhaps accessories.  This might increase the prevalence of the rarely-used "Equip X" abilities.


I may be mistaken, but last recall, Mimes weren't going to be able to equip weapons. So the only Equip X abilities this would really help would be Equip Clothes and Equip Armor.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 07, 2013, 02:59:36 pm
I don't think you'd use the armor to make a powerhouse Elemental user in the first place.   It would be more of a hybrid thing for male samurai, particularly for boosting attack power and Murasame healing at the same time.  Alternatively, it could be used for book users that use Equip Armor... if book users existed.


What? Book users exist. Granted, it's not one of the more popular items, but given Books lack of distribution, the fact that Equip Magegear is mediocre at best and the fact the one of few classes to get Books is the squishy back-row entity known as Summoner, they see a surprising amount of use.

Now, Book users with Armor...yeah, I don't think that's ever happened, which isn't surprising between Equip Armor costing so much and the aforementioned problems with Equip Magegear even on classes that have the MA.

(Speaking of which, I still think that Equip Magegear should go to Time Mage, even if it's also getting Half of MP now. [/nag])


Quote from: Malroth on July 07, 2013, 05:27:22 pm
Bump Wizanabus to 3xPA  and make it boostable with Attack up and Overwhelm but also make Defense up Unyielding and Protect reduce the damage it does.   


Quote from: Malroth on July 07, 2013, 06:56:56 pm
thats 2 mimes and 2 glass cannons maxPA no defense at all dancers vs a no protect no defense up no autopotion no HP restore team.  A glass cannon team SHOULD be able to beat another glass cannon team in 1 round.

Edit
Vs a 70/40 unit wit Unyielding and autopotion that 60 damage per hit will be down to 4 damage per hit after the 44 average healing you get from a 55% autopotion.
I'd even be in favor of subjecting it to PEV  so Abandon monsters can get in on the fun.


Gods no. I understand your intentions are good, but that's just...yeah.

Glass cannons can generally be able to beat other class cannons in like one or two turns, provided things go well for one glass cannon group, but no present glass cannons can nuke the other team universally from across the map.


To Boldly Omit EDIT: Ugh. I really do need to stop omitting things. Basically almost everything in bold now was something omitted, while things that were previously bold, aside from the armor question, are now in italics.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 09, 2013, 07:24:54 pm
<fdc> here?
<Dokurider> Yeah
<fdc> how goes everythihng?
<Dokurider> Man, I was having a serious brainstorm about Wiznaibus last night
<fdc> oh?
<fdc> what did you come up with?
<Dokurider> And I came to the following conclusions
<fdc> oh?
<Dokurider> Wiznaibus is unbalanced because unlike the other dances it has no appreciable effects when done with a single dancer
<Dokurider> yet with multiple dancers and miming, it's way too dominating
<fdc> right
<Dokurider> Unless you have more than one Auto Potion user
<fdc> then it's shit again
<Dokurider> then it's just flies vs a flyswatter
<fdc> right
<Dokurider> Wiznaibus, to be good
<fdc> I see it as the equivalent of a DoT in a game like WoW
<fdc> or light artillery support in modern warfare
<fdc> not good, but good enough to pick off stragglers and add pressure
<Dokurider> has to end up resembling more like the other dances, one Wiznaibus is good enough, but more than that has diminished returns
<fdc> in other words, a dance where the marginal growth
<fdc> is logarithmic
<fdc> or 1/ x
<fdc> rather than connstant
<Dokurider> Basically
<Dokurider> Take a look at Slow Dance
<Dokurider> One Slow Dancer is all you need
<Dokurider> Hell, it's my Tourney team
<Dokurider> One Slow Dancer
<Dokurider> and a bunch of shields
<fdc> actually, no...slow dance's marginal utility is very high
<Dokurider> to guard
<fdc> Y U SO DERP
<fdc> all over again
<fdc> well...until SP = 1
<fdc> what I mean is this
<fdc> 6 to 5 to 4 to 3 SP
<fdc> becomes more and more deadly
<Dokurider> well, maybe it was a bad example
<fdc> BUT I undertand what you mean
<fdc> the marginal utility per dancer
<fdc> is diminishing
<fdc> that is true
<fdc> not the marginal utility per use, necessary
<Dokurider> Even Witch Hunt
<fdc> because of team dynamics
<Dokurider> follows that formula
<Dokurider> But not Wiznaibus
<Dokurider> If we want Auto Potion to gain support for becoming balanced, Wiznaibus has to be fixed
<Dokurider> Too bad I'm not sure what to do yet
<Dokurider> But
<Dokurider> At least know I know what I'm aiming for
<Dokurider> Which I really haven't so far
<fdc> Witch Hunt has two primary differences
<fdc> MP = 0 doesn't mean much
<fdc> for every unit
<fdc> hence, the marginal utility per use
<fdc> is not constant
<fdc> it's actually 0
<fdc> until they reach the time when their MP can be cut to 0
<fdc> whereas HP damage is always good
<Dokurider> true, but you only need one dancer to maintain that MP = 0
<fdc> no matter how much is dealt
<fdc> Correct
<fdc> so the marginal utility per dancer
<fdc> if MP = 0
<fdc> is also zero
<Dokurider> You don't need more than one Witch Hunter
<fdc> Here's the thing....all the status dances
<fdc> are marginal utility is exponential per dance until 1
<fdc> but marginal utility per dancer is negative due to team dynamics
<fdc> witch hunt is virtually zero in all respects until MP is low.  Then it's either really high or zero depending on the team
<fdc> and marginal use is negative due to team dynamics
<fdc> whereas wiznaibus is constant and positive but small
<fdc> in both marginal utility per dance
<fdc> and per dancer
<Dokurider> The only idea I've come up with so far is like Max HP reduction
<fdc> if units aren;t leveling up
<fdc> that would work
<fdc> I can't do it in my patch due to requip
<fdc> and the bugs that causes
<Dokurider> No, units never level up in Arena
<Dokurider> no exp
<fdc> though I may make that an ASM assignment if it turns out to work
<fdc> I know
<fdc> in my patch...though
<fdc> *if it turns out mechnically to work well in Arena
<fdc> another, Doku
<fdc> of the same vein
<fdc> is % HP damage of curHP
<Dokurider> That was my first idea actually
<fdc> just make it higher than AP for a 200 HP unit.
<fdc> so more than 40%
<fdc> but then you'd need to scale that quadratically
<fdc> I think
<fdc> to be fair
<fdc> I can write the formula, but do we really want FFM to code that?
<Dokurider> The only problem with that is the presence of more than one Dancer
<Dokurider> Or when the mimes come around
<Dokurider> Now I'm dealing 40% all over the place
<Dokurider> Oh wait
<fdc> 40%
<Dokurider> You said curHP
<fdc> then 24%
<fdc> yeah
<fdc> eventually, AP units
<fdc> stabilize
<fdc> at some HP balance
<fdc> though if their brave is too low
<fdc> they still get seriously damaged
<fdc> Though...I suspect Raven's right
<Dokurider> ?
<fdc> having a hard counter to this would be good
<fdc> in AP
<fdc> so we can lower the percentage and not make it as frightening as 40%
<REDACTED>
<fdc> 40% is probably way too aggressive
<Dokurider> Yeah if we do this
<Dokurider> We can just add my previous idea
<fdc> It has to be stronger than regen + MHPUP, though
<fdc> at least at maxHP
<Dokurider> of AP not triggering on hits that deal less than it heals
<fdc> so those units stabilize at around 75%
<Dokurider> So it doesnt' have to overcome AP
<fdc> 0.75 * 1.225
<fdc> Err...
<fdc> I mean
<fdc> Sum (N / M * 1.225) ^ X from X =1 to infinity = 0.75
<fdc> that's what we have to solve
<fdc> find N  and M
<Dokurider> man solving for X and Y?
<fdc> N and M
<fdc> but yeah
<fdc> if you want
<Dokurider> Imma need more morning water
<fdc> treat it as one decimal
<Dokurider> I'll brb
<fdc> so InfSum(Y * 1.225) ^ X = 0.75
<fdc> or 1.225Y (1 + 1.225Y + 1.225^2 Y^2 + ... ) = 0.75
<fdc> or 1.225Y * 1 / (1 - 1.225Y) = 0.75
<fdc> or Y /  (1 - 1.225Y) = 0.75 / 1.225
<fdc> crap
<fdc> that's still like 54% or something
<fdc> no
<fdc>
<fdc> screw this
<fdc> Y = 0.75 / 1.225 - 0.75Y
<fdc> or 1.75 Y = 0.75 / 1.225
<fdc> 35%
<fdc> vs. autopotion at 250 HP
<fdc> that's nearly enough to maintain around 95%
<fdc> anything more...and AP starts being less effective
<fdc> so that ASM is unnecessary
<Dokurider> And even if you don't have AP, you don't get screwed over
<Dokurider> not completely
<fdc> right
<fdc> there's one problem
<fdc> AP isn't 100% activation
<fdc> so....assuming 100% activation...it stabilizes at
<fdc> 95%
<fdc> at 70% max
<fdc> and 55% average
<fdc> we're talking about really getting cut to ribbons eventually
<fdc> even at 250 HP
<fdc> in short, the only way to stabilize againnst this
<fdc> is regen
<fdc> and MHPUP
<Dokurider> So how does this work with two Wiznaibus users?
<fdc> just stabilizes at a lower percentage.
<fdc> actually, we can probably cut it to 25% just to be safe
<fdc> because wiznaibus usually happens every 0.8 turns
<fdc> and AP users will do better
<fdc> than getting totally shredded, which is kinda wrong
<Dokurider> Yep, sounds damn good
<fdc> This is why you need the math guy
<fdc> I'll test it out...
<fdc> if it works...I'll definitely connsider adding it to my patch
<fdc> but I suspect the poison proc's pressure, given how it works now
<fdc> is sufficient
<fdc> the key thing...however, is that AP can and does block it
<fdc> because mimed wiznaibus
<fdc> will get AP'd
<fdc> because mimes do not have disable innate
<fdc> so it's still blockable...the MP damage and poison is to add tempo
<fdc> so in fact, the safest setup is still 5 performers with disable
<fdc> but you do that at your own risk
<fdc> because I think the faster overall tempo should quickly stop you
<fdc> plus, in terms of game balance, you can't easily get 5 performers
<fdc> until very late
<fdc> damage-wise, the strongest is 3 performers, 2 mimes
<fdc> and really, if the BS piles up too high
<fdc> I can certainlly restrict team size to 4
<fdc> that way...things more resemble Arena and makes AI tourneys easier


To summarize, Wiznaibus deals % damage based on curHP, not max HP. This produces a dance that has an effect by itself, but can't fly out of control when multiple users are present. What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 09, 2013, 08:10:51 pm
Quote from: JamesOnyx on July 08, 2013, 01:31:48 am
Auto-Potion shouldn't hurt Lore that much.  I have a setup that does at least 80-100 damage off of Maelstrom, and with Auto-Potion dropping down to healing 70 HP (and only occasionally no less), you should be able to power through it.  As a note, no team should be able to accumulate 300-500 damage across the map that easily anyways.

(3 Scholars + 1 Mime equals OH my GAWD)



Try my team "first strike"  against any team with 2 auto potions and see how badly they loose
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 11, 2013, 01:28:38 am
(I misspoke last edit: Saying 1.39 Mimes can't equip weapons was also already bold and still is [because I'm both stupid and lazy].)

Anyway, there's something that I thought about yesterday before I apparently accidentally knocked the battery out of my computer while asleep--ugh--and was looking at Samurai set-ups. Well, that and the earlier talk about female Samurai set-ups with Black Magic: Perhaps it would be better if Half of MP went to Samurai?

Granted, Samurai doesn't use MP because Draw Out, unfortunately, can't use MP (or else Masamune might actually be balanced). That said, of the three armor using classes, it is the most mage-like; this even with Lancers getting Robes back and possibly a slight MA boost. More importantly, after all the currently suggested changes, Samurai would still be the only class that will be without an in-class Support it can actually use if Primary.

(Admittedly, if Half of MP went to Samurai instead of Time Mage, then Time Mage would be without a Support at all again. I am suggesting this, however, in light of the fact that I still maintain that Time Mage should get Equip Magegear. This both because Time Mage still has the worst equipment options in ARENA*, even if we ever decide on what the hell 1.39 Staves are like, and because Druids are coming in with another Support anyway with "Heart of the Wild" or whatever. But, hey, since I've been the only one pushing for Equip Magegear thing, I doubt it will happen.

Then again, the "Balance goes to Oracle" thing happened, so....

I'm also not counting Mimes, obviously.)

But, yeah, I guess it's less about Half of MP, really (even as awkward as it might be for Time Mage to have 5 RSMs, though that's not unheard of), and more just that Samurai not be left "Support"-less, even as much as half of the current Draw Out makes me roll my eyes when really powered up. Outside of Half of MP, the only other Support I can think that might fit them is maybe Paladin's Equip Heavy Blade.

...Ah, crap. I guess Paladin is also without a Support that isn't redundant to a Primary Paladin user and it's losing a Movement (though Move -1 sucked on Paladin anyway). Hmmmm....

...Yeah. I've got nothing (right now), though at least Paladin's reaction is good. Meatbone Slash is...iffy at best and, even as overpowered as I feel some abilities in Draw Out--Masamune, Murasame, Bizen Boat, arguably Chirijiraden--are, something seems like it's...missing, at least on the male Samurai side of things. Maybe it's the lack of HP, though I realize that has to do with Murasame (and, now, Masamune) most likely; just like how you can't exactly ask for more PA for males due to Innate Two Hands.

Shrug. Ignore this (like almost everything else I write). [/stream of consciousness]

*Yes, Wizards are also only stuck with one weapon type, as are Samurai, but unlike Staves, Rods & Katanas don't uniformly suck and some of the Rods at least are getting another set of buffs, however slight.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 09, 2013, 07:24:54 pm
To summarize, Wiznaibus deals % damage based on curHP, not max HP. This produces a dance that has an effect by itself, but can't fly out of control when multiple users are present. What are your thoughts?


So, what, Wiznaibus becomes "25% curHP damage" at 100% accuracy? I...guess I could get behind a Demi Dance, maybe. Is it still going to be able to add Poison? It's rather...unclear.

Regardless, I still think that Mimes should no longer be able to mimic things that hit the whole field, especially since even changing Wiznaibus doesn't change incoming Lore problem.


Quote from: Malroth on July 09, 2013, 08:10:51 pm
Try my team "first strike"  against any team with 2 auto potions and see how badly they loose


Is "First Strike" the team you tested out from before, Malroth? Because, if so, while similar, it's still ultimately markedly different from being able to use three Scholars/Druids/Lore-users & 1 Mime and have said Mime not die even without Distribute.

Also, if beating that team is solely dependent upon making sure that half of your team's non-100% Reactions are Auto Potion, then, uh, there's still at least one problem with that situation, if not more.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 11, 2013, 02:23:05 am
One Idea i've been pushing is to let time mages equip Daggers and Black Mages Equip Books but it never got a response back in the day
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 11, 2013, 04:50:38 am
Actually, I think Samurai should get Overwhelm since they have proven to be it's best and consistently it's only user given their tendency to use both Magical and Physical attacks.

QuoteSo, what, Wiznaibus becomes "25% curHP damage" at 100% accuracy? I...guess I could get behind a Demi Dance, maybe. Is it still going to be able to add Poison? It's rather...unclear.


Yes it still would be capable of procing poison.

QuoteOne Idea i've been pushing is to let time mages equip Daggers and Black Mages Equip Books but it never got a response back in the day


Well I'm not sure what Time Mages are going to do with Daggers other than poke with Platina Daggers. Wizards don't need Books with Scholars getting a stat change.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 11, 2013, 05:44:21 am
Well daggers are partially based on speed so they'd get more damage out of them than other casters and Throwing knife, Repel Knife, Orihalchum, and Main Gauche are all better than anything a time mage can currently equip
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 11, 2013, 05:49:13 am
Female Time Mages only have 3 PA. No way can 10 SP make up for that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 11, 2013, 08:01:14 am
Quote from: The Damned on July 11, 2013, 01:28:38 am
So, what, Wiznaibus becomes "25% curHP damage" at 100% accuracy? I...guess I could get behind a Demi Dance, maybe.


I would rather kill of Wiznaibus than have it come to this.  CurHP or no, two instances will still drop HP to nearly 50%.  Map-wide, unevadable, unabsorbable, poison-inflicting Demi 2?  Count me out.  If it's Auto Potion we're worried about here, we should rather invent a new status ailment that blocks reaction abilities and have Wiznaibus inflict it.  Make the proc rate high (25~50%) and the duration low (10~20 CT) so that it doesn't outlive its designed purpose.

(I cannot remember if I mentioned this in a previous post, or thought about mentioning it but chose not to.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 11, 2013, 11:57:23 am
One thing I mentioned in chat is that if we could get Wiznaibus to not trigger Autopotion then problem solved.  There are two ways of doing this I think...

Either having Wiznaibus get reprogrammed or the more likely scenario is that there is a minimum threshhold for triggering Autopotion. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 11, 2013, 01:59:26 pm
15% then. FDC invented that because he wanted Wiznaibus to outdamage Regen + Move HP Up. I say as long as it outdamages Move HP Up, it should be fine.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 11, 2013, 02:59:32 pm
(15% Wiznaibus seems a lot more fair, though I'd still rather it change to something that doesn't do damage.)

After all, for the most part, all of this talk is focusing on what if the opposing team has Auto-Potion or Move-HP Up or HP Restore.

What about if they don't, though? Then is 15% CurHP damage at 100% accuracy with whatever chance of long-lasting Poison really fair? Even in the face of diminishing turns with multiple Dancers? Especially if Wiznaibus can still be Mimed?


Quote from: Malroth on July 11, 2013, 02:23:05 am
One Idea i've been pushing is to let time mages equip Daggers and Black Mages Equip Books but it never got a response back in the day


Neither class has the PA to make those weapons work, though of the two, I could see Wizards getting Books at least (or, "ironically", Daggers).

Honestly, I'd rather just decide on Staves than try to give Time Mages more options beyond giving them Equip Magegear.

So, yeah, file this under another "no" to that idea.


Quote from: Dokurider on July 11, 2013, 04:50:38 am
Actually, I think Samurai should get Overwhelm since they have proven to be it's best and consistently it's only user given their tendency to use both Magical and Physical attacks.


The same, actually. I just...didn't want to make Murasame the ability even stronger than it already is.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 11, 2013, 04:50:38 am
Yes it still would be capable of procing poison.


Do not want, then. At least 25%. Even 15% Cur HP with Poison is a bit...iffy.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 11, 2013, 08:01:14 am
Make the proc rate high (25~50%) and the duration low (10~20 CT) so that it doesn't outlive its designed purpose.

(I cannot remember if I mentioned this in a previous post, or thought about mentioning it but chose not to.)


I'm guessing the "it" here is "Poison status" rather than Wiznaibus, right?

Regardless, no I don't recall you mentioning this before, though I do vaguely recalling at least one other person agreeing when Barren--I think--brought up the idea of shortening Poison and Regen's CTs a while ago.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 11, 2013, 04:24:31 pm
Quote(15% Wiznaibus seems a lot more fair, though I'd still rather it change to something that doesn't do damage.)

After all, for the most part, all of this talk is focusing on what if the opposing team has Auto-Potion or Move-HP Up or HP Restore.

What about if they don't, though? Then is 15% CurHP damage at 100% accuracy with whatever chance of long-lasting Poison really fair? Even in the face of diminishing turns with multiple Dancers? Especially if Wiznaibus can still be Mimed?


I'm actually hesitant to support the old idea of it purely proccing poison because I think it'll actually be stepping on Kiyomori's toes, seeing that it's basically a map wide Kiyomori.

As opposed to dealing at least 20% damage or more on units with 300 HP or less? And that's just one Wiznaibus dancer. A Wiznaibus Dancer with a PA of 15 can output 60 damage per turn. That's 120 damage with two dancers, 180 with one Mime, and 240 damage with two Mimes. That with the last setup would not only leave your average 300 HP unit in critical, but can outright kill some units, and the next turn, they are all good as dead. As oppose to a 15% curHP formula Wiznaibus with only 8 instances per turn(because it's getting a CT increase to "0.8 of a turn" according to FDC's calculations, or 8 CT I believe) that'll only leave the enemy at 27%, not even in critical, and the next onslaught will not be lethal.

Of course, whether it's 16 instances or 8 instances, trying to balance Dances or Songs or Lore around Miming bullshit is bullshit. Mimes with all the incoming buffs they're getting, don't need to be the back up dancers/chorus anymore. No to miming map wide skills. There, I said it. Don't be upset, FFM.

It can lose the poison proc too, it's not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

CurHP, thanks to it's damage tapering off the lower HP gets, is more fairer to low HP units, and can be effective without multiple dancers while not being broken in the presence of multiple dancers which was a problem pre-Auto Potion and still is if it goes up against a team with less than two Auto Potion users as Reinoe's team proved.

It shouldn't need to get around Auto Potion anymore because the Wiznaibus user no longer needs to be a glass cannon in order to be effective, removing the pressure of having to drop the enemy right away because they'll drop you if given half a chance thus making Auto Potion less of a big deal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 11, 2013, 06:11:57 pm
(Well that's at least one more person in the "Mimes shouldn't be able to Mime map wide-abilities" group for a grand total of...two since no one else has said anything about it one way or the other.)

Oh, so the new Wiznaibus would also be CT 8? Then I can definitely get behind a "With Knives" that does 15% CurHP at 100% every 8 clockticks and no longer adds Poison. That should...probably be fine.

So, with that "decided", where does that currently leave the rest of Sing/Song & Dance? I think we've only *really* discussed Nameless Song and now Wiznaibus despite everything else being brought up:


SONGS & DANCES AS A WHOLE:
1. Reactions: MA Save, PA Save & Faith UP are fine in their current price. Everyone agreed that Brave UP needs a JP reduction since it...kinda sucks. So Brave UP is becoming 100 JP in 1.39.
2. Supports: Neither Bard nor Dance have these still and they can frankly forgo them given they have 5 RSMs already.
3. Movement: Fly's JP cost was deemed fine, with the problem being that Ignore Height cost too much, so that's getting reduced to 150 JP in 1.39.
4. Non-Uniform MP Costs: Brought up by Dokurider, this was the proposition that some Songs and Dances really should cost more MP than others. Aside from myself, no one has really commented on this one way or the other.
5. Songs & Dances no longer being subject to Mimic: Brought up by myself, this was part of the proposition that Mimes no longer be able to mimic any ability that hit the entire map, which also includes half of Lore. Aside from Dokurider, no one has really commented on this one way or the other.


SONGS
1. Angel Song: Could stand to be slightly slower in CT, maybe. It seems otherwise fine and hasn't been discussed really at all.
2. Life Song: Maybe fine as it is, though people have complained about its lack of power. Slightly discussed.
3. Cheer Song: Not really discussed at all outside of my saying it could probably stand to have its CT decreased to 9 or 8 CT so the singer doesn't end up out-speeding its resolution so easily. Its MP might need a boost just because +1 SP is powerful even if Cheer Song itself currently is basically horrible. *looks at Quickening*
4. Battle Song: Aside from myself saying that it & Magic Song should go back to 50% accuracy or, at the very least, need an increase in MP, no one has discussed this one way or the other.
5. Magic Song: Aside from myself saying that it & Battle Song should go back to 50% accuracy or, at the very least, need an increase in MP, no one has discussed this one way or the other.
6. Nameless Song: The current form of this probably needs to be scrapped for valid reasons brought up by Dokurider about it not being able to compete with Iron Will, Wall, the Perfumes and newly boosted Knight('s) Swords, among other things, even with Reraise and even if we add Haste. This because the current, necessary randomness of the buffs make them unpredictable and nigh useless, especially given the A.I. hesitance to use them until an ally is hurt. Presently, Dokurider has suggested remaking Nameless Song as "Cancel: Undead, Berserk, Frog & Death Sentence" at 40%, which I have personally backed. No one else has commented on it to the best of my recollection.
7. Last Song: We seem to be going with my idea to boost it back up to at least 40%, which was really just a scaling down of my backing CT5Holy's idea to bring it back to 50%. If Mimes can truly no longer mimic Songs, then this can probably go back to 50%, maybe, though it would have to cost more MP than it costs now and maybe cost more MP than Cheer Song. I'm not sure yet. No one has said anything about this one way or the other though.


DANCES:
1. Witch Hunt: Outside of a brief discussion that this could perhaps stand to do more MP damage (because of Absorb MP & Move-MP Up) and my saying it could probably also stand to be slightly slower than CT 4 if that's the case, no one's said anything about this.
2. Wiznaibus/With Knives/Whatever: See the discussion on the last page. This is easily the most discussed Dance.
3. Slow Dance: I am pretty sure at least three people, including Dokurider and myself, agreed it needs to cost more MP. Otherwise, no one has said anything about it one way or the other.
4. Polka Polka: Outside of my saying that Battle Song should probably come back to 50% for its sake and saying that it could maybe stand to cost slightly more MP so long as it costs less than Battle Song, no one has anything about this one way or the other.
5. Disillusion: Outside of my saying that Magic Song should probably come back to 50% for its sake and saying that it could maybe stand to cost slightly more MP so long as it costs less than Magic Song, no one has anything about this one way or the other.
6. Nameless Song: I guess this probably isn't changing at all with the current Wiznaibus discussion. No one has discussed it at all independent on what's happening to Wiznaibus, with pretty much any change here having been dependent on Wiznaibus dying as a damage ability entirely.
7. Last Dance: We seem to be going with my idea to boost it back up to at least 40%, which was really just a scaling down of my backing CT5Holy's idea to bring its opposite of Last Song back to 50%. This even though it's "weaker" than Last Snog, simply because it with a Mime seemed like it could become really obnoxious with Quickening dying if it was brought back to 50%. If Mimes are no longer able to mimic Dance, then this could probably be fine going back to 50%. At the very least, it seems as if Last Dance should probably cost less MP than Last Song since CT00 is kinda unimpressive compared to Quick.


This reminds me that in addition to still needing to count up equipment, I still need to count up abilities as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 11, 2013, 08:11:59 pm
Well I'm of the opinion that the current incarnation of Dance is massively under powered to the point of worthlessness even with miming and Mimes are a Universaly bad option anyway so Further nurfing Dances Because of Mimes Would definately see the end of any possible dance build. 


No team has sucessfuly run either Polka Polka or Dissilution,  The AI does not know which is the bigger priority for a given enemy team and at best they'll choose randomly,  and since relavent PA or MA based threats typicaly have 16+ in their base stat  wearing them down to a non threatening 8 will take longer than any other stratagey including breaking every piece of equipment, or Poisoning them with Kyomori and simply waiting for them to drop.

Witch Hunt has Niche uses to minimize enemy Quickening usage but mostly isn't applicable against a well built team.  Looses out massively to the incredibly overpowered Bizen Bolt.

Slow dance would be nice in theory but its current Accuracy problems prohibit any actual usefulness.

Nameless Dance lacks any useful statuses.  Silence Is useless on 60% of units and is blocked on 90% of the remaining units that carry one or more magics,  Darkness would be nice for evasion teams but it does not affect magic, guns, concentrate or hidden knife equipped units and is a commonly blocked status both for glass cannon melee and tanks.  Slow is currently oblivated by the omnipresent masamune.  Oil is a good status for a team built around it but can't keep up with 12% chance of being relevant.

Wizanabus is currently both unusably weak yet has properties that make it scary to the point where nobody wants to make it stronger Because of what a Mime could do with it,  But since mimes are going to be changed next patch their stats are almost certianly going to be dropped in line with the other classes and since only 2 copies of each piece of gear are going to be allowed  the worst case damage calculations shouldn't be made assuming 4x 16+ PA units (which is still a bad baseline because every unit equiped like this will be 1hkoed by the 1st spell or bowshot anyway and drop the damage output by 50% regardless of the unit dropped) but should instead be made assuming 2x 16PA units who are wearing all the PA boosting gear possible and 2X12 PA units stuck with the leftovers.




Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 11, 2013, 10:10:14 pm
(Even if Dance was as bad as you think--I'm not going to deny it has issues, obviously--it was, there's no good reason why we should be acting like letting it continue to be Mimed would be a merit: classes need to be able to stand on their own.)

Putting Wiznaibus aside for now, let's talk about the other Dances. Again:


1. Polka Polka & Disillusion: Some people did use these. Forever ago. As in before you came around. And then I vaguely recall few people kvetching that the stat minus dances were boring and made matches drag on forever and were no fun when they actually did work. So they got dropped to the current percentage you see now and Polka Polka & Disillusion have never been used effectively again, in no small part due to the fact that Magic Song & Battle Song got rather unnecessary accuracy buffs later on.

2. Witch Hunt: I concur.

3. Slow Dance: I'll put this nicely: You're insane. The only presently stopping Slow Dance from being overpowering, maybe even broken, with Phoenix Blade around is an even more overpowered technique that tells Slow Dance to STFU: Quickening. This part of the reason why Cheer Song needs to be strengthened.

Even without Phoenix Blade, Slow Dance would still be pretty damn decent if you can make your team tanky or distracting enough.

4. Nameless Dance: In truth, it is kinda "meh", but it can still be useful, especially since it tends to make the A.I. not cure the statuses it inflicts so long as it's being danced. This is why, in addition to the inanity of Frog, it lost some other things it initially inflict like Poison and such. I'm not really sure what else could be added here though given the Dance conflict since adding Poison or Don't Move in seems the most "obvious" (since it only reduces the change for other things by 2% or 3%), but "uncurable" either versions of those would be "bad". (And before you say "But the A.I. uses Masamune on targets Slowed by Nameless Dance all the time!", the A.I. does that because Haste is prioritized and it just happens that Haste cancels Slow [?] and vice-versa.)


Guess there's no point in saying anything about Last Dance, so....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 12, 2013, 12:05:38 am
Units don't cure the statuses from nameless dance? :shock:
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 12, 2013, 12:58:19 am
(I forgot to correct something Nameless Dance-related last time that you said: Concentrate and Hidden Knife are vulnerable to Blind. I'd still be fine with Hidden Knife losing Always: Transparent though.)

As long as a Nameless Dance is still being danced, no, the A.I. will utterly refuse to heal anything it can cause for whatever reason, probably because it sees it as hopeless. After all, among the many things the A.I. is blind to, both the Random Inflict Status Code assignment and percentages that aren't 00% seem to be among them. So it probably just sees Nameless Dance as "Add: All Blind, Silence, Oil & Slow" and thinks that those things are just going to get re-added anyway, so why bother curing it?

It's just difficult to notice since the A.I. tends not to cure Blind & Silence anyway even though those last "forever", Oil tends to get "cured" pretty quickly anyway by dying and Slow has nothing that just cancels it without adding Haste except Refute, which cancels almost everything.

But, yeah, Nameless Dance could probably stand a boost. It's just difficult to think of what it could be given that issue.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 12, 2013, 01:50:27 am
Don't Move is a good candidate since it wears off after 1 turn anyway,  I was going to reccomend frog since a second application would cure it on its own but seeing as the AI won't cure the frogs  then it becomes a very bad idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 12, 2013, 03:14:16 am
(Yeah, Nameless Dance originally had Frog and let's just say it was...stupid. I think Nameless Dance only de-Frogged a Frog like...once or twice ever.)

Well, yeah, Don't Move by itself would be fine...if it wasn't for the A.I. not curing things. As it is, it just seems like with Don't Move, some really stupid teams might come up abusing that fact alongside things like Hunting Bow and the spell Don't Move.

Still, it's probably the least horrible option since Poison is worse and everything else is way worse and I was originally saying that Nameless Dance could probably stand to add Don't Move at 12%, so....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 12, 2013, 11:20:05 am
Quote from: The Damned on July 11, 2013, 02:59:32 pm
I'm guessing the "it" here is "Poison status" rather than Wiznaibus, right?


No, it refers to the new status that seals reactions.

I think changing Wiznaibus from a damage skill to a status skill is best, but there's no use trying to redirect popular opinion.

Let me try a different approach: can we scrap Phoenix Blade?  We can put Dokurider's wind sword in its place.

Edit: Let me mix in some ideas from several pages ago.

Phoenix Blade Kazekiri: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Wind Element, 2 Range, 2H, No 2S
Coral Sword: 7 WP, 10 W-EV, Water Element, 33% Cast: Suiton, 2H, 2S
Genji Helmet: 120 HP, Strengthen: Wind (Init: Berserk removed).

Kazekiri:  Its damage is about the same as a 12-WP Air Knife.  It has +1 Range, but -1 Move and -5 W-EV.  Basically, it's an Air Knife for Paladins and Geomancers.  If this is too samey, we can change it into a different element, preferably Dark.

Coral Sword: This version has about the same power as Platinum Sword on average and is much more effective at busting 40-40 BrFa and Flash-Hat users.  More importantly, it'll have crazy burst damage.  When dual-wielded, it can push 280 damage against a 40-70 target 57% of the time (pre-evasion).  That's about 40 damage more than what a 12-WP Air Knife deals to that same target 100% of the time.  WP has been dropped from 9 to 7 to compensate for this.

Genji Helmet: This should make Heaven's Cloud much more usable on the Samurai class.  Cool, but kind of limited in application.  To remedy this, we can add Strengthen: Water or Strengthen: Earth. 

Strengthen: Water will primarily buff Whale Whisker Samurai (optimised damage on a female Samurai is 252~352 with 324 HP and a free accessory slot).  For comparison, optimised damage on Thieves with 13-WP Air Knives is 266~374 damage with 294 HP and no free accessory slot.  Bear in mind that Thieves have higher base SP.  Still, kind of scary.

Strengthen: Earth will primarily buff Kikuichimoji.  Other buffs, however niche, include armor-clad Titan and Quake users.  This will nicely overlay Genji Helm with the new Thief Hat as complementary headgear: one strengthens wind and earth; the other halves them.  In my opinion, this is the better of the two choices.

Does anyone have any comments about these proposals?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on July 12, 2013, 01:26:31 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2013, 11:20:05 am
Let me try a different approach: can we scrap Phoenix Blade?  We can put Dokurider's wind sword in its place.


Yes, please. Let's just get rid of that thing already.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 12, 2013, 01:37:38 pm
I was going to save this after the tournament, but I guess I'll just say this now about Phoenix Blade, seeing that my odds of departing from the tourney are actually pretty good and thus I won't get to show what Phoenix Blade can really do:

Phoenix Blade is unworkable. Specifically, Always: Reraise is unworkable. All Always: Slow did was make the unit mostly useless until it died, then it becomes the best way of removing an enemy from battle via kill loops. If Always: Slow could not balance Always: Reraise, then nothing will. Not without defeating the point of the attribute. Even if our technology advances and we can add a -4 Speed Penalty, it would just turn into Cursed Ring without any of the drawbacks. Let's not even get into what happens when it pairs up with the otherwise decent Balance.

It was a good experiment, with a clever attempt at balancing, but I don't think Always: Reraise could ever be balanced.

So with that and I'm pretty sure Angelus proved that Shieldrender doesn't work, we have two sword slots open. I still say Always: Transparent can be balanced, perhaps not with Speed + 1. That was my first idea for a Wind Sword. My other sword idea was for a Range + 1 sword. I'd actually like to expand on that possibly by letting it be Two Swordable.

In case you don't know, no weapon with more than 1 range has been verboten because if it's paired with a 1 range weapon, that 1 range weapon will hit the enemy anyways, even if it's well outside of it's range. It saw some use in 1.3 as an enemy only setup but I don't see why we can't utilize this glitch other than it'll look a little derpy.

Basically doing this will act as a crude range extender and can set up a lot of stylish combos.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on July 12, 2013, 02:01:01 pm
I don't know about you guys, but I dislike the idea of using a glitch as a gameplay mechanic. I agree that Phoenix Blade has to go, so I propose the following Swords:

-Beastslayer (Cast: Sidewinder)

With monsters being introduced soon, I feel this would be a fun addition. Sidewinder would Add: Death or something onto a Monster, unless FFM could modify the formula for Reis' skills to do heavy damage to a monster or something.

-Buster Sword (Cast: Shellbust Stab)

Assuming FFM makes Shellbust Stab evadeable, this would be a fun replacement for Shieldrender. It would have low WP, but the proc would make up for it. If destroying armor is too much, I suppose it could be made to proc Icewolf Bite or Blastar Punch instead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 12, 2013, 02:12:00 pm
QuoteI don't know about you guys, but I dislike the idea of using a glitch as a gameplay mechanic.


You mean like Combos from Street Fighter 2? Not that I'm saying this is on that level, but still...

Quote-Beastslayer (Cast: Sidewinder)

-Buster Sword (Cast: Shellbust Stab)


The reason why we're changing Shieldrender/Bow Gun is that even if they worked, they'd be broken/terrible to play against. We don't want Might Sword in Arena in any form. Being able to insta kill any kind of unit for free is awful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on July 12, 2013, 02:17:59 pm
Naturally, they wouldn't be 100% procs, and I fail to see why weapons (that would have low WP, to boot) that can break things would be broken.

We already have Archers who can break stuff from afar while not sacrificing WP to do so, so how would a 1 range weapon (at least in the case of the Buster Sword) that doesn't even have a 100% proc be broken? Assuming we give it 6 WP, if the proc goes off, it'd be 12 WP worth of damage 25-30% of the time, depending on what FFM would set the proc rate as, doing more effective damage depending on if it breaks Helms/Armor, of course. Further, if people are so dreadfully concerned about having their gear broken/stolen, they can always use Maintenance. It's there for a reason.

As far as Beastslayer goes, I was considering it adding Doom instead of Death, but that seems silly, since Throwing Knife has range and adds Doom on -anything- instead of just monsters.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 12, 2013, 09:25:16 pm
(I knew that Dokurider was secretly Dante in disguise.)

Wait, since when are monsters "soon", Eternal? This isn't rhetorical.

We still haven't even talked about monsters at all outside of the awkward Blue Mage discussion earlier this year where nothing got answered.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2013, 11:20:05 am
No, it refers to the new status that seals reactions.


Oh, I see. This is why I nag people about antecedents.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2013, 11:20:05 am
I think changing Wiznaibus from a damage skill to a status skill is best, but there's no use trying to redirect popular opinion.


Oh, it's not like you can try. Half of the shit I said initially wasn't popular but it's basically be implemented.

As it stands now, I personally just think Dokurider's change Wiznaibus-as-damage-still is reasonable, not something that I steadfastly support, especially if a better option comes up. It's just that, I as I explained to Malroth above, I've come to realize that even add "only" Poison would be "bad" given how the A.I. being targeted by Dance reacts (or doesn't). My initial idea of "Dirty Dance" would probably end up being pretty overpowering, even if Oil gets a nerf.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2013, 11:20:05 am
Let me try a different approach: can we scrap Phoenix Blade?  We can put Dokurider's wind sword in its place.


We can. Outside of Raven and maybe reinoe, I'm not sure any one actually likes that thing. I only agreed to let it live another version back when I had basically get on beg people to see just how stupid Quickening was and get them to agree to kill that if nothing else.

That said, I'm pretty sure that Airrender/Kazekiri/Whatever/Squall Sword was going to replace Shieldrender given that that sword and Bow Gun would doubtless be pretty dumb if they were actually working.

Not really sure what other sword idea we could come up with if suddenly "need" two now, but since you said that you wanted a Dark sword, I'll try and think of something while I'm on my walk.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2013, 11:20:05 amCoral Sword: This version has about the same power as Platinum Sword on average and is much more effective at busting 40-40 BrFa and Flash-Hat users.  More importantly, it'll have crazy burst damage.  When dual-wielded, it can push 280 damage against a 40-70 target 57% of the time (pre-evasion).  That's about 40 damage more than what a 12-WP Air Knife deals to that same target 100% of the time.  WP has been dropped from 9 to 7 to compensate for this.


I'm going to assume you mean 70-40 here given both Attack's damage going off the Fury of targets and the -tons damage going off UnFaith.

I guess I can get behind that, though I'd honestly like for there to be a sword that reduced having actual high Faith rather than just MA at best. Right now, Icebrand is the closest thing and frankly that sucks if you're trying to use it for its proc, though part of the problem there is Tier 2 Black Magic being overshadowed by Tier 1.

Regardless, how exactly are deciding on the -ton thing anyway?

Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2013, 11:20:05 am
Genji Helmet: This should make Heaven's Cloud much more usable on the Samurai class.  Cool, but kind of limited in application.  To remedy this, we can add Strengthen: Water or Strengthen: Earth. 

Strengthen: Water will primarily buff Whale Whisker Samurai. *snip*

Strengthen: Earth will primarily buff Kikuichimoji. *snip*


I've already said that if the new Genji Helm (or whichever Helm) got more than Strengthen: Wind, then I'd want to be Strengthen: Earth mostly for reasons you said. Dokurider objected to Strengthen: Earth mostly on grounds of Kikuichimoji--I'm guessing the ability since no one is using the damn katana anymore--possibly becoming overpowering given the Earth element abilities, sans maybe Titan, are pretty good already.

We both agreed that there's no way in hell it should be Strengthen: Water though. Doublehanding Whale Whisker units already do extreme amounts of damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 12, 2013, 11:22:10 pm
Important news everyone!  A shocking revelation thanks to the Zareb v Vigilanti match.  BOW GUN WORKS.  I repeat BOW GUN WORKS!(capitalization intentional in order to indicate actual yelling).  This means that Shieldrender may actually be working as well.  Many people (myself included) also thought pilgrimage and warpath weren't working.  Wow, these arena matches are educational in more ways than one.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on July 13, 2013, 12:13:31 am
Confirmed that the Shieldrender works, too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Mc0rxjidQ&feature=youtu.be)

All units have Shieldrender, Escutcheon II & Counter equipped. The thing works, folks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 13, 2013, 01:44:18 am
Quote from: The Damned on July 12, 2013, 09:25:16 pm
I'm going to assume you mean 70-40 here given both Attack's damage going off the Fury of targets and the -tons damage going off UnFaith.


No, I mean 40-70.  Against 70-40, it'll do ~380.

Suiton will probably stay as Suiton.

Quote from: The Damned on July 12, 2013, 09:25:16 pmDokurider objected to Strengthen: Earth mostly on grounds of Kikuichimoji--I'm guessing the ability since no one is using the damn katana anymore--possibly becoming overpowering given the Earth element abilities, sans maybe Titan, are pretty good already.


Hmm.  Well, Earth Clothes has been buffing Kikuichimoji on Bards and Geomancers for awhile now.  This change will make Samurai as good at using Kiku as these two classes, but no better (and with no Earth absorption).

Glad to receive conformation about Bow Gun and Shieldrender working.  Thanks for the info, Reinoe and Otabo. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 13, 2013, 02:20:25 am
QuoteKazekiri:  Its damage is about the same as a 12-WP Air Knife.  It has +1 Range, but -1 Move and -5 W-EV.  Basically, it's an Air Knife for Paladins and Geomancers.  If this is too samey, we can change it into a different element, preferably Dark.


It does seem a little too similar to Air Knife only even easier to power up thanks to Genji Helmet + PA formula. I don't think it should be two handable. Just give it 12-13 WP and leave it one handed only.

Quote from: reinoe on July 12, 2013, 11:22:10 pm
Important news everyone!  A shocking revelation thanks to the Zareb v Vigilanti match.  BOW GUN WORKS.  I repeat BOW GUN WORKS!(capitalization intentional in order to indicate actual yelling).  This means that Shieldrender may actually be working as well.  Many people (myself included) also thought pilgrimage and warpath weren't working.  Wow, these arena matches are educational in more ways than one.

Quote from: Otabo on July 13, 2013, 12:13:31 am
Confirmed that the Shieldrender works, too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Mc0rxjidQ&feature=youtu.be)

All units have Shieldrender, Escutcheon II & Counter equipped. The thing works, folks.


Hm, this changes things. They don't deal damage, so I suppose it meant it proc'd the the actual item breaking proc as oppose to the skills themselves. So what'll it be guys, keep them or replace them anyways? I actually think Shieldrender/Bow Gun are the best item breaking you can implement. That being said:

Quote from: Eternal on July 12, 2013, 02:17:59 pm
Naturally, they wouldn't be 100% procs, and I fail to see why weapons (that would have low WP, to boot) that can break things would be broken.

We already have Archers who can break stuff from afar while not sacrificing WP to do so, so how would a 1 range weapon (at least in the case of the Buster Sword) that doesn't even have a 100% proc be broken? Assuming we give it 6 WP, if the proc goes off, it'd be 12 WP worth of damage 25-30% of the time, depending on what FFM would set the proc rate as, doing more effective damage depending on if it breaks Helms/Armor, of course. Further, if people are so dreadfully concerned about having their gear broken/stolen, they can always use Maintenance. It's there for a reason.\


Breaks are powerful, but carry an AI cost of basically nerfing your damage output as the AI switches from breaks to damage. Most good users of the Breaks only carry what they need lest they spend the entire match trying to break everyone's crap instead of actually dealing damage. By adding it to weapons as proc, even with low WP and low procs makes breaking items way too easy, especially in combos, like Weapon Break + Item Breaking weapon. I just don't want item breaking to be a dominant strategy and that'll happen by making it easy to implement. Then again, I'd rather have Shieldrender then...this, and I might just have a bug up my ass about item breaking weapons.
Quote
Hmm.  Well, Earth Clothes has been buffing Kikuichimoji on Bards and Geomancers for awhile now.  This change will make Samurai as good at using Kiku as these two classes, but no better (and with no Earth absorption).

I suppose Earth strength would be OK, but leaving Whale Samurai with a free accessory might be trouble. Whatever, do it and we'll measure it by how pissed off everyone gets when they start getting sodomized by Whale Whisker on a regular basis.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 13, 2013, 02:55:24 am
(So Bow Gun & Shieldrender work, albeit oddly? Well...shit. Not sure how this changes things then.)

Regardless, I thought up another sword after I finally went for a walk. It's probably terrible like most of my ideas, but meh. We potentially might not need it now even if we are getting rid of Phoenix Blade, what with Shieldrender "working" in a non-broken fashion:


Terror Blade/Darkhold Blade/Darkbringer/Magus Sword: WP: 8; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Stop (Spell/Ability); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: ...Probably not.


...Okay, so this thing occurred to me when I realized that a) I could perhaps get away with Gaignun "wanting" a Dark element sword & myself wanting a sword that actually rewarded high Faith and b) no close-range weapon currently causes Stop. Additionally, both the weapons that cause Stop are (at least partially) MA-based and generally not that accessible. This while Chronos Tear now exists and Mythril Helm (or some Helm) will now be not redundant and usable if it gets Immune: Blind alongside Immune: Stop; the latter also somewhat applies to Jade Armlet getting a boost going into 1.39.

(It's kind of amusing how I keep "defaulting" to Stop-based stuff despite almost never using that side of Time Magic. Hmm....)

Anyway, this is meant to both be a replacement for Phoenix Blade (power-wise when Double-handed) and a high-risk, high-reward sword (since it actually rewards high Faith rather than just high MA, so 70/70 set-ups on a melee unit are now slightly less insane). The high-risk, high-reward nature seems fitting of a Dark-type sword, really, and I didn't want to make a Dark type sword that stepped on Blood Sword.

The relatively low WP is partly because of Golden Hairpin being widely accessible; it's also partly because I still think that Ko(u)tetsu Knife, like Asura Knife, should also have 10 WP, but...it doesn't (still...yet). The relatively high W-EV is mostly because Stop doesn't last that long--even if I'm still uncomfortable with it being on Hell Ivy now--and because the unit has to be 70/70 to get the most out of it, meaning they're going to get hurt if they get hit; this without being able to heal themselves like with Blood Sword. The high amount of proc is because Madlemgen & Lamia Harp already proc Stop status straight at 33% & from a distance  and the Stop spell probably has less of a chance than that even at 50% even with 70 Faith on the the "average" melee unit. Finally, Two Hands but no Two Swords just because Ninja already has too much crap and this sword could be annoying enough as it is without being able to pair it up with Muramasa (the katana) on the same unit.

I'll let this little train wreck burn into your minds for a bit since I just remembered something I need to bug FFMaster about in the "complaint" thread.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 13, 2013, 03:12:24 am
I think we really shouldn't change Bowgun or Shieldrender until they get tested on various teams.  Bowgun could still be potentially broken since it's "Armor Break" but Shieldrender, even when it's working, still might be underpowered.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 13, 2013, 07:42:27 am
Quote from: Dokurider on July 13, 2013, 02:20:25 amI suppose Earth strength would be OK, but leaving Whale Samurai with a free accessory might be trouble. Whatever, do it and we'll measure it by how pissed off everyone gets when they start getting sodomized by Whale Whisker on a regular basis.


Genji Helm won't have Strengthen: Water, so no worries.

Quote from: The Damned on July 13, 2013, 02:55:24 am
Terror Blade/Darkhold Blade/Darkbringer/Magus Sword: WP: 8; W-EV: 15%; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Stop (Spell/Ability); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: ...Probably not.


Not a bad idea.  We might as well name it after WotL's Balmung (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Balmung) given that that sword has the exact same function.  Indeed, Holy and Dark are the elements of choice for faith weapons, since they fit well with Golden Hairpin's MP boost.  WP doesn't need to be that low for the sake of Golden Hairpin, though.  That headgear is only going to add more PA than Twist Headband if PA is greater than 12, which requires specific equipment on most classes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 13, 2013, 02:55:14 pm
(Hmmm...in looking back, there's not really anything else for me to reply to like I thought there was.

I'm still "out" on if Airrender/Kazekiri should be open to Two Swords, even as weird as it might look, but I agree with Dokurider that it probably shouldn't be able to be Two-Handed.)

Oh, I'd be fine with naming it Balmung, which is maybe what I was subconsciously remembering despite never playing War of the Lions given my research into things...years ago already. (Geez.)

Too bad we don't really need it now if Shieldrender works and isn't broken; the jury's still out on Bowgun. Between Balmung and Airrender/Kazekiri, I'd rather go with the latter, if only because it was here "first" and we already sort of agreed that Iron Fan should become Dark element, even if we could still use more Dark weapons after that. Well, that and the kinda crappy Kotetsu Knife doesn't really need more competition at present.

Of course, that assumes that we want the working Shieldrender to even stay, so....

We can at least agree that Phoenix Blade needs to die and we've finally agreed what Genji Helm and the rest of the Helms should look like, so we're at least making some progress equipment-wise again.

If we're sticking with Suiton instead of Doton, then that means Desert Rose is nixed and Aspergillium gets to stay as it is by default I suppose. That doesn't really solve the issue of the Monk elemental stuff (or if Flails should get on one of the Equip Xs) though....


P.S. If we're still going to talk about swords, then I still say that Icebrand could stand to get a bit of a WP drop and a better proc than what it has now. I think it's part of the reason that Tactician's Blade wasn't being used, especially since like Air Knife it was easily the strongest when (easily) strengthened. With Phoenix Blade dying, it's now out and out tied for strongest sword with Tactician's Blade, so....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 13, 2013, 07:58:38 pm
Ice Brand was always tied with Tactician's Blade for strongest sword. Phoenix Blade had more WP, but considering the Always: Slow, it was more like 8 WP because DPS.

Making it Wind Elemental also has the additional benefit of synching with Genji Helmet.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 13, 2013, 08:13:15 pm

7/13/2013

Primary Palette #3:Green
Second Palette #6:Yellow

Unit 1
Male
Cancer
70
40
Archer
Steal
Abandon
Concentrate
Move-MP Up
Bow Gun
Zephyr Shield
Green Beret
Santa Outfit
Feather Mantle

None
Quickening, Steal Heart, Steal Accessory


Unit 2
Male
Cancer
70
40
Archer
Steal
Abandon
Concentrate
Move-MP Up
Bow Gun
Zephyr Shield
Green Beret
Rubber Costume
Feather Mantle

None
Quickening, Steal Heart, Steal Accessory

Unit 3
Male
Pisces
40
70
Archer
Item

Magic Attack UP
Pilgrimage
Glacier Gun
Kaiser Plate
Thief Hat
Rubber Costume
Chantage

Arm Aim
X-Potion, Antidote, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

Unit 3
Male
Pisces
40
70
Archer
Item

Magic Attack UP
Pilgrimage
Blast Gun
Kaiser Plate
Thief Hat
Santa Outfit
Chantage

Arm Aim
X-Potion, Antidote, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 14, 2013, 04:20:52 am
(Yes, I am aware that Ice Brand was always tied for strongest in actuality, but that was due to a technicality, which is why I said now it's "out and out" tied. After all, Jump or even just normal attacking with Phoenix Blade rather hurts. At the same time, it's not like it really matters what WP Phoenix Blade had since attacking was not really its purpose and not the problem with it.)

Anyway, since we're talking about Swords, Crossbows and Katana (and, I suppose, Flails, sort of), we might as we finish up those categories, Bow Gun possibly set aside for now:


1. Flails: These are fine. Aspergillum probably isn't changing into Desert Rose now. The only real question is if Flails should a) get more class access and b) become part of some Equip X ability since they are currently the only weapon not even considered for one, unlike Harps & Cloths.


2. Swords: Phoenix Blade dies; everyone rejoices. It gets replaced by either Airrender/Kazekiri or Balmung; the latter comes in should Shieldrender, which is apparently working, be decided on still needing to be replaced now. Parry Edge gets a W-EV increase to 25% to be less pathetic. Coral Sword lose some WP in exchange for getting either Suiton or Reflect; at this point, probably the former--we've all agreed it at least needs a better proc.

Lionheart maybe gets some W-EV (even though I personally really think it doesn't "deserve" that). Icebrand maybe loses some WP and gets a better proc? The other swords remain the same regardless.


3. Crossbows: Even if it works in a less egregiously overpowered way than anticipated as with Shieldrender, Bow Gun will still probably have to replaced by...something. That can wait, though, I suppose. I just wanted to note this out both to be thorough and to point out the hitherto possibly accepted replacement of becoming a Two Handable crossbow just makes it a Crossbow that's only ever going to be used with Two Hands...which kinda steps on Gastraphetes's toes.

Anyway, this whole category as a whole needs some clarification. Are we going to up all of the four status crossbows WP to 12? Are we turning Gastraphetes into a Forced Two Hands, WP 14, Infinite Kagesougi? Are we ever going to finish watching Network after all these years?

Find out on the next Sick Sad World!


4. Katana: I still think the designs I came up with on the fly are surprisingly decent even if the katana that's been getting the most use is lazy-ass Kiyomori (which I don't think I came up with; I'd be fine with that becoming something else, really). Murasame is finally seeing some use though and Kikuichimoji will be seeing some use again with Genji Helm. Additionally, Muramasa & Bizen Boat are probably fine, even if thus far they've both been used better by non-Samurai units (read: Thieves and Ninja). That still leaves five other katana though....

Presently, Chirijiraden is possibly going to be superfluous now due to Genji Helm, if only because a) Samurai don't have a Water element ability and b) it's difficult for male Samurai to reach 12 MA without Kiyomori the katana. It's not completely superfluous given that it has the highest WP out of the (normal) attack capable Katana and it remains usable with Two Swords, but...yeah. Between Genji Helm and Giant Axe, it currently isn't exactly getting things done on the units that can naturally equip it.

(Again, I'd be fine with changing Kiyomori to something less lazy, especially in the light of Murasame & Bizen Boat the abilities' current level of power. Like, say, giving Kiyomori's the katana Masamune's current Dispel Magic proc, perhaps at a higher percentage as recompense.)

Speaking of Masamune, of the leftover katana, it probably has the least problems. It's just a matter of answering this question: Would Masamune the katana be fine also getting Initial: Regen in the face of Kibaku Fuda and the boost to Dispel Magic? Otherwise, I guess it can stay the same, barring the Kiyomori thing above.

Similarly, with Genji Helm, Heaven's Cloud the katana will probably see at least some use now. It's more just a matter of what happens with Heaven's Cloud the ability since that might still suck even with Genji Helm. It's...difficult to tell. (It might also be useful to figure what the hell is happening with Asura by comparison.)

Speaking of Asura, the Asura & Ko(u)tetsu Knives, which I also didn't come up with, are currently somewhat...unusable, the latter more than the former. They should probably stay the same elements are now, but self-strengthening is just not cutting it, especially when they are no physical abilities for the former and the latter is obviated by Sadist's Whip when it comes to Meiton. The only problem is that I'm not exactly sure what to do with them though either at present. Hmmm....

(Oh, and while we're talking about Samurai as a whole, I've come to think it would probably be fine if, in addition to becoming subject to M-EV, Bizen Boat was reduced to AoE 1 given how much MP damage it will still be doing with that very minor yet necessary nerf.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
Flails should belong to a Equip X, no mistake about that. Flails can piggy back on Equip Light Blades. I think the only viable candidates for Flails would be Thieves and...Time Mages?

QuoteAre we going to up all of the four status crossbows WP to 12?


Uh, no one ever said this? Only Silencer was agreed to need the WP boost. Actually now that I recall, Poison Bow was supposed to have a WP drop.

Quote4. Katana:

You're lucky I was thinking about this, Asura and Koutetsu in particular, last night. I was going to pass on touching Katanas this update but since you brought it up:

The problem Asura and Koutetsu have is an issue of coverage. Once their respective element is blocked, they are shit out of luck for the damage output they were optimized for.

Koutetsu Knife will be fine if it loses it Dark Elemental. It still strengthens Koutetsu, but blocking it's respective element will still leave you with a usable weapon.

Asura Knife could technically do the same thing, but I'd actually like to see it differentiated from Koutetsu Knife somehow. But by making it's draw out better, that won't be a big issue. Speaking of it's draw out...

I don't remember who said that male Samurai can't use Draw Out well, but it's absolutely right in that males should be able to use Draw Out too. I suggest making one of the Draw Outs a PA * Y formula. I was going to suggest Heaven's Cloud, but then I realized that doing that would make the Wind Element too much of a Physical Element. So then what about making Asura a PA * Y formula? It would still be considered a magical attack, including being boosted by Magic Attack Up and taking magic evade.

For Chiri, make it +1 MA, +1 PA

The reason I suggested Masamune also gain Initial: Regen was so that the resident Masamune spammer minimizes the amount of time buffing. I think Masamune (katana) has to be capable of doing something after Regen/Haste wears off.

You can make Bizen Boat a single panel draw out and it'll still do it's job of midcharging mages. All reducing it's AoE does is hurt all Bizen Boaters that aren't 6+ move mini-Elmdors, who will only be mildly inconvenienced.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 14, 2013, 10:38:34 pm
Equip light blade granting flails would also help many non ninja Ninjutsu builds or sylph/leviathian specalized summoning bards.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 14, 2013, 10:54:49 pm
(I'd be up for Time Mage getting Flails. Beyond them or Thief, I'd say that Geomancer and maybe even Paladin would be other decent users, if only because of Grand Cross & female Paladins in the case of the latter though. Time Mage would be the most worthwhile user--at the very least, Sadist's Whip would start seeing more use; it would also further Time Mage & Priest as the support mages.

I'd be up for it going on Equip Light Blade too.)

So...having thought about it more, I'm now of the impression that Kiyomori the katana needs to die. I've come to the realization that it's essentially Rune Blade the katana, only with slightly more evade; yes, I'm that slow. Other than that, it's completely redundant and, much like Wizard Staff (compared to Wizard Rod), basically only around for one class, half of which can't use it well. We all know how I feel about Wizard Staff and Kiyomori, if anything, is worse.

In other to make it so that other katana actually get used, it needs to change. At present, the only thing I can think of is giving it 100% Dispel Magic given that having it add Poison & Blind seems a bit...much. Maybe that would be fine though; probably not.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
Uh, no one ever said this? Only Silencer was agreed to need the WP boost.


I guess CT5Holy is no one then. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg189393;topicseen#msg189393)

...Not that I expected you or anyone else to actually remember that, given I couldn't remember who said it--then again, my memory is shit--and I had to use the search function just now to bring it up.

Initially, it was a suggestion I was lukewarm to at best, but the more I think about it, the more it seems...fair enough I suppose, at least when it comes to the current state of Crossbows. It's difficult to tell if it would still be necessary though, what with Spellguns, Stone Gun and some of the higher end Longbows getting nerfed by necessity.

Bow Gun working & possibly sticking around now and the fact that I still think we should just combine Romanda Gun & Mythril Gun and make the remaining gun slot into a healing gun only serves to complicate things.

But...yeah. The status proc Crossbows to 12 WP? Yay? Nay? Maybay?

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pmActually now that I recall, Poison Bow was supposed to have a WP drop.


It was, at my initial behest to help get Silencer strengthened.

I then realized that Poison Bow...kinda sucked, especially in the face of the currently overpowered Hawk's Eye (that's still going to be overpowered if we leave it as is currently recorded in Gaignun's thread) and thus didn't bring it back up when it just dropped out of the equation. Well, that and after my initial (admittedly probably absurd) redesigns of Poison Bow got no backing.

But, yeah, Poison Bow already has enough issues with not being used. Dropping its power to 10 WP will just ensure it sees pretty much no use, at least while Hawk's Eye is still adding Poison (on top of 100% accurate, at least decent damage and Oil).

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
You're lucky I was thinking about this, Asura and Koutetsu in particular, last night. I was going to pass on touching Katanas this update but since you brought it up:

The problem Asura and Koutetsu have is an issue of coverage. Once their respective element is blocked, they are shit out of luck for the damage output they were optimized for.


Indeed.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
Koutetsu Knife will be fine if it loses it Dark Elemental. It still strengthens Koutetsu, but blocking it's respective element will still leave you with a usable weapon.


It would be fine perhaps, yes, but the issue then becomes that we kinda, you know, lost one of the only two Dark element weapons in ARENA. Even assuming that Iron Fan gets made Dark elemental, we'd only be back up to two Dark-type weapons, especially since Balmung is in limbo with the revelation that Shieldrender actually works. Additionally, it just comes off as a lesser version of the current Chirijiraden, so...yeah. I will respectfully decline supporting that idea at present.

So noted though.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
Asura Knife could technically do the same thing, but I'd actually like to see it differentiated from Koutetsu Knife somehow. But by making it's draw out better, that won't be a big issue. Speaking of it's draw out...

I don't remember who said that male Samurai can't use Draw Out well, but it's absolutely right in that males should be able to use Draw Out too. I suggest making one of the Draw Outs a PA * Y formula. I was going to suggest Heaven's Cloud, but then I realized that doing that would make the Wind Element too much of a Physical Element. So then what about making Asura a PA * Y formula? It would still be considered a magical attack, including being boosted by Magic Attack Up and taking magic evade.


*raises hand*

I'd be up for making Asura physical as long as it's not a pain in the ass for FFMaster to do. It would kill more than two birds with one stone, especially given that Fire elemental lacks any physical abilities at all currently beyond Paladin's Crosses. Even those, one of my more successful teams has shown how much Paladins still kinda suck with that.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
For Chiri, make it +1 MA, +1 PA


I'm not sure that's necessary having thought about it more. With Monk getting all three of those elements, Chirijiraden as it is now should have a use even on males beyond just being the strongest attack-capable katana. Otherwise, it's still useful on (female) Samurai with Summon Magic, Lore and even Black Magic.

Changing it (again) shouldn't be necessary...yet.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
The reason I suggested Masamune also gain Initial: Regen was so that the resident Masamune spammer minimizes the amount of time buffing. I think Masamune (katana) has to be capable of doing something after Regen/Haste wears off.


Yes, I am aware of the reason and I had remembered it when I initially suggested that last post.

As for removing Dispel Magic, it's less about "punishing" Masamune than about what I said at the very top of this post. If we want to give Masamune something to "do" after Regen & Haste wear off, then we don't just take a page from Jot5 (since we were considering doing that like a month ago) and just make it Range: 2.

I mean, everyone wuvs Sephiroth and FFVII, right? *yawns*

One could maybe give it more evade too given all of the katana are a bit...uniform that way despite Samurai being the heavy armor class with the least options for evasion. Of course, that kinda steps on Airrender/Kazekiri, at least if it's still usable with Two Swords like all the other katana (and see no reason for it to be).

I'd be fine with it keeping Dispel Magic; I'm just convinced now that current Kiyomori the katana needs to die & change given it could have its space used much better as with Wizard Staff.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
You can make Bizen Boat a single panel draw out and it'll still do it's job of midcharging mages. All reducing it's AoE does is hurt all Bizen Boaters that aren't 6+ move mini-Elmdors, who will only be mildly inconvenienced.


Yes, I'm aware. Still, something needs to be done beyond the M-EV thing considering right now, as far as MP damage goes, Bizen Boat and maybe Witch Hunt are worth using and pretty much everyone agrees Bizen Boat does too much. Magic Ruin & Spell Absorb see pretty much no use, so....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 14, 2013, 11:54:22 pm
If changing Kiyomori to some other effect please allow samurai to equip regular swords so i can at least stick runeblades on them as a replacement.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 15, 2013, 12:11:52 am
(No.)

I'm "sorry", but you get C Bags as your replacement if you don't want to use Equip Light Blade. It's the price you pay for having a Murasame capable of one-shotting Undead God.

It's the same for Priests and Wizard Staves: healers and/or units maxing out MA can stand to have shitty weapons.


P.S. For the record, I don't...entirely object to Samurai getting access to Swords, but meh.

Walking EDIT: Actually, no. Now that I think about it, Samurai really shouldn't get access to Swords. This if only because Innate: Two Hands with Lionheart or Platinum Sword would likely be really, really dumb.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 15, 2013, 03:57:19 am
I still think The Damned's Crusade Against +2 MA Weapons is gay, but that raised a interesting question for me:

What is the purpose of C Bag if everyone and their mothers has a +2 MA item on their person? Only the Ninja and the Monk could ever conceivably use the C Bag; every other class has access to +2 MA in some weapon form or another.

It's over The Damned. "Save the Spotted C Tree Whales" has failed. They have been officially whaled to extinction and made into fetching Ivory Rods grips, Rune Blade handles, Kiyomori sheaths, Mythril Gun bullets, and Ice/Lightning Bow arrows.

To celebrate I created a C Bag Ninja build that actually isn't too bad:


Female
40
40
Ninja
Draw Out
HP Restore
Magic Attack Up
Move + 1
C Bag
C Bag
Holy Miter
Wizard Outfit
Cursed Ring

Masamune, Chirijiraden

15 MA + MA Up + 5 Move + 10 Speed = Pretty Good. Cursed Ring gives her 12 speed after Masamune and also assures she'll be the gift that'll keep on giving. Reflect Ring can be added so that she can't embarrass herself by Berserk Bagging, the Reflect is a nice little bonus. Red Shoes is also an option for Elmdor Status. Genji Glove if you want a reason to use Abandon. Diamond Armlet for Earth Teams. Of course, without Cursed Ring, you'll have to take Murasame and that'll constrict what you can buy for a reaction. Other than that, pretty straight forward: Masamune, dash in, Chiri everyone, die, repeat.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 05:39:58 am
I don't have time to comment on everything I'd like to, but

Quote from: The Damned on July 14, 2013, 04:20:52 amLionheart maybe gets some W-EV (even though I personally really think it doesn't "deserve" that). Icebrand maybe loses some WP and gets a better proc? The other swords remain the same regardless.


Let's see how popular Lionheart becomes with 10 W-EV and go from there.  I don't see a problem with Ice Brand.  It's not a bad weapon; it simply doesn't fit in the current meta-game.

Quote from: The Damned on July 14, 2013, 04:20:52 amBow Gun will still probably have to replaced by...something.


I wouldn't miss it if it is gone.

Quote from: The Damned on July 14, 2013, 04:20:52 am(Again, I'd be fine with changing Kiyomori to something less lazy, especially in the light of Murasame & Bizen Boat the abilities' current level of power. Like, say, giving Kiyomori's the katana Masamune's current Dispel Magic proc, perhaps at a higher percentage as recompense.)


I don't feel a reason to distribute the current Masamune's effect across two weapons.  It's pretty unattractive as it is.  That being said, I don't agree with increasing Masamune's proc rate to 100%.  100% dispel is Gold Staff's job.

Edit: We could increase Masamune's WP by 1, though.

Quote from: The Damned on July 14, 2013, 04:20:52 amWould Masamune the katana be fine also getting Initial: Regen in the face of Kibaku Fuda and the boost to Dispel Magic?


This is sensible and seems to be agreed upon by all parties.  I will add it to the list.

[/quote]

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pm
Flails can piggy back on Equip Light Blades.


I'm fine with this, myself.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pmSo then what about making Asura a PA * Y formula? It would still be considered a magical attack, including being boosted by Magic Attack Up and taking magic evade.


No objections here.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 14, 2013, 05:23:51 pmFor Chiri, make it +1 MA, +1 PA


I agree with only adding 1 PA, and at a cost of lowering WP from 11 to 10.  I don't want Chiri to overshadow Murasame as an MA-boosting weapon or Asura/Kotetsu as DPS weapons.  Chiri already boosts Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji, after all.

Quote from: The Damned on July 14, 2013, 10:54:49 pm...at least while Hawk's Eye is still adding Poison (on top of 100% accurate, at least decent damage and Oil).


Is there a reason why Hawk's Eye ignores P-EV?  Why don't we make P-EV apply?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 15, 2013, 02:29:49 pm
("[Insert non-living noun here] is gay, with gay meaning bad."

...What? Seriously? When did you revert to a tween, Dokurider?)

Why, yes, my "Crusade" is totally only attracted to Crusades of the same sex. Not like I was trying to hide that or anything; it just wasn't any of your business or terribly relevant. After all, everyone knows how sexy the Third Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Crusade) was, "gay" or "straight" or "bi" or other.

*rolls eyes*

Nonsensical, potentially offensive slang aside, that accusation isn't even correct. For one, it's not "crusade". The only thing I've ever crusaded against in ARENA was Quickening and that crusade is over; it ended in victory, motherfucker. For another, I don't have a problem with +2 MA weapons. Rune Blade, Wizard Rod, Mythril Gun, Ivory Rod, Ice Bow & Lightning Bow and C Bag are all fine. What I have a problem with is the egregious redundancy of a couple of them, namely Wizard Staff but now also Kiyomori the katana.

(It would be pretty damn hypocritical of me to argue that Wizard Staff "needs to die" because it's redundant and then leave Kiyomori the katana alone when it's guilty of exactly the same damn thing, only even worse.)

Even if this was a "Crusade", it would be a "Crusade Against Redundant +2 MA weapons" rather than all of them in general just because we have too fucking many of them; seriously, even killing those two, we still have seven. As you just admitted, C Bag is almost completely superfluous because of this. What's the point of even making that ubiquitous if still no one is going to use because they don't have to ever sacrifice anything when boosting MA (with a weapon) presently? Is it bad for me to want Samurai to actually, you know, use Robes to boost MA when not going for overkill, max-MA set-ups that make Murasame heal for 200+ HP instantly?

I don't have a problem with a katana still boosting MA, maybe even by +2 MA still, but like with Staves, you can't honestly look at Rune Blade & Kiyomori & their distribution and tell me that they aren't redundant to each other. Just like you can't look at Wizard Rod & Wizard Staff & their distribution and tell me that they aren't redundant even as much as mages depend on MA.

So, cute little kunoichi experiments aside, I'm going to continue to talk about this for at least a bit until we'll completely sure about katana shit one way or the other. Thanks.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 05:39:58 am
Let's see how popular Lionheart becomes with 10 W-EV and go from there.  I don't see a problem with Ice Brand.  It's not a bad weapon; it simply doesn't fit in the current meta-game.


Ugh. Fine. If we must. I mean, I'm fine with Ice Brand/Icebrand staying as it is (for now). The "ugh" is referring to Lionheart here getting 10 W-EV that I really don't think it needs, but whatever. I'm not going to stand in the way given the fact that it's ultimately minor & will speak for itself eventually one way or the other. More importantly, I'm agreeing because it would be "nice" (read: easier for FFMaster) if we decided all the changes for 1.39 ARENA finally before the tournament ended.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 05:39:58 am
I wouldn't miss it if it is gone.


Neither would I. That still doesn't mean that we shouldn't test it out if it's actually working, though, for better or for worse.

Not that I'm against not testing it out since it will probably be stupid, but until someone comes up with a sound replacement or decides what the fuck we're doing with Crossbows as a whole, it's going to be there regardless.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 05:39:58 am
I don't feel a reason to distribute the current Masamune's effect across two weapons.  It's pretty unattractive as it is.  That being said, I don't agree with increasing Masamune's proc rate to 100%.  100% dispel is Gold Staff's job.


I wasn't talking about increasing Dispel to 100% on Masamune the katana. That would have been solely if it went to Kiyomori the katana.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 05:39:58 am
Edit: We could increase Masamune's WP by 1, though.


We could...but I'm rather ambivalent there, especially since then it would be equal to power in Bizen Boat, which already sees very little use given how much blocks Silence. That's more an issue with Bizen Boat than Masamune though.

For the record, I wasn't being entirely sarcastic with being fine on the whole "give Masamune Range: 2" front, though admittedly that was partly on the condition of it probably losing Dispel Magic.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 05:39:58 amI agree with only adding 1 PA, and at a cost of lowering WP from 11 to 10.  I don't want Chiri to overshadow Murasame [sic] as an MA-boosting weapon or Asura/Kotetsu as DPS weapons.  Chiri already boosts Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji, after all.


So, what, Chirijiraden as "WP: 10; W-EV: 15%; Special: +1 PA; Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water"? I...guess I could get behind that. Not terribly necessary, but definitely at least a slight improvement, especially with the upcoming Monk changes (that we still need to decide on--with Desert Rose dead, I'm guessing Earth Slash stays as it is).

Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 05:39:58 amIs there a reason why Hawk's Eye ignores P-EV?  Why don't we make P-EV apply?


...Because hawk's eyes' nicknames usually go along with some type of extremely good accuracy and the 100% hit aspect of it isn't actually what's wrong with it? Seriously, Hawk's Eye just needs to cost slightly more MP and lose the ability to cause either Oil or Poison. Losing Poison would be the best choice seeing as that would mean that Poison Bow is no longer obviated a technique that any Archer can use.

(It also needs a note that it is currently weapon-based, even if that's not that FFMaster intended.)

The only other solution would be to make it go back to adding "only" Oil & Poison with no damage and it didn't exactly see use when it did that, so....

We could maybe (ask FFMaster to) change the formula to slightly lower its more than decent damage. With Mythril Bow getting a nerf, Quickening dying, Oil & maybe even Poison getting nerfed and it getting a more appropriate MP cost as well still being subject to Projectile Guard, however, I'm not sure that we need to (just yet). Then again, Sprint Shoes is getting a buff and Speed +1 is coming into play as a movement, so....

Hawk's EDIT: Fixed the syntax of the second sentence of the first paragraph of the last quote here that I somehow fucked up big time. I probably missed something else still if I'm only seeing this now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 02:57:14 pm
Quote from: The Damned on July 15, 2013, 02:29:49 pm
Not that I'm against not testing it out since it will probably be stupid, but until someone comes up with a sound replacement or decides what the fuck we're doing with Crossbows as a whole, it's going to be there regardless.


I hope crossbows will gracefully enter the meta-game once guns get nerfed.  There is little need to shake crossbows up at this point (aside from adding a point of WP here and there).  It's fine if crossbow WP damage is outshone by other alternatives.  Archers were originally damage-support, after all.  Only, at some point we went astray, putting guns in their hands and turning them into wrecking machines.

Quote from: The Damned on July 15, 2013, 02:29:49 pmSo, what, Chirijiraden as "WP: 10; W-EV: 15%; Special: +1 PA; Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water"? I...guess I could get behind that. Not terribly necessary, but definitely at least a slight improvement, especially with the upcoming Monk changes (that we still need to decide on--with Desert Rose dead, I'm guessing Earth Slash stays as it is).


Yeah, it basically becomes a Punch Art weapon for Paladin and Samurai.  Both classes have difficulty stacking PA, so they still won't outperform Monks at their own job.

About Earth Slash, I would still like it to be water elemental, the reason being that water is more difficult to strengthen, especially following our Genji Helm change.  This is fitting for what is arguably the best offensive skill in the set.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 15, 2013, 04:24:48 pm
Is anything being done to Katar? That's a lot more problematic than Lionheart IMO. WP down to 10 or 11, or it loses +1 PA? Then damage output would be closer to 2H Lionheart. Actually, +2 PA from Lionheart isn't only useful for the plain ol' Attack command, so maybe no changes need to be done? 2H Katar has hilariously absurd damage output though.

I think Katar losing +1 PA would be fine. It would be the go-to choice for max Attack damage, while Lionheart still gives you excellent attack damage in addition to the +2 PA. 5% or 10% W-EV for both weapons seems acceptable as well.

I'm in favor of the 2 range sword (Kazekiri/Kazegiri).
I also agree with Asura to PA*Y.
I like Thief Hat's Half: Water being moved to Green Beret. I still think Secret Clothes could see a mild buff though. Ooh, how about Immune: Don't Move?

Speaking of Katanas, what if we made Kikuichimoji proc Earth Slash instead of Quake? Could see some neat Samurai or Paladins with Martial Arts builds or something. Female Samurais would rather equip Kiyomori at the moment, anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 15, 2013, 07:58:25 pm
QuoteIs anything being done to Katar? That's a lot more problematic than Lionheart IMO. WP down to 10 or 11, or it loses +1 PA? Then damage output would be closer to 2H Lionheart. Actually, +2 PA from Lionheart isn't only useful for the plain ol' Attack command, so maybe no changes need to be done? 2H Katar has hilariously absurd damage output though.

I think Katar losing +1 PA would be fine. It would be the go-to choice for max Attack damage, while Lionheart still gives you excellent attack damage in addition to the +2 PA. 5% or 10% W-EV for both weapons seems acceptable as well.

So somebody finally picked up on it, huh? As I said before, it's better than Platina Sword in every way except it's weapon formula and two swordablity and maybe how it's distributed. That being said, a simple WP drop should be sufficient.

Do you guys think that Katar, right now, is the best Thief weapon? I think while there are setups that'll produce more damage, but that +1 Move really makes it a powerful melee weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 15, 2013, 09:59:29 pm
(I might as well do this now before I go on a walk.)

The best Thief weapon right now is Air Knife because of "lol broke" damage even before Oil stupidity; this despite having to contend with Thief Hat halving Wind. Katar is a close second, though.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 02:57:14 pm
I hope crossbows will gracefully enter the meta-game once guns get nerfed.  There is little need to shake crossbows up at this point (aside from adding a point of WP here and there).  It's fine if crossbow WP damage is outshone by other alternatives.  Archers were originally damage-support, after all.  Only, at some point we went astray, putting guns in their hands and turning them into wrecking machines.


Well, from what I remember, guns have been in ARENA's Archers hands from the start, which would have been fine...had spellguns not been broken since vanilla and had guns been bared from using shields. As it is now, the current changes to spellguns and Stone Guns help crossbows a lot, particularly Stone Gun now being finally confined to Forced Two Hands; I'll talk about the two other guns later and we'll see if spellguns should still lose Shield access now that they're Nether-based. This is part of why, Silencer aside, I'm not sure upping the damage on the crossbows is necessary anymore.

Still doesn't explain what to do with a Bow Gun replacement or what to do with Gastrafitis/Gastraphetes/Girafarig. People seemed to think Dokurider's suggestion was fine, myself included, even though infinite Kagesougi bow might cause...issues.

Also, Hawk's Eye still needs to not obviate Poison Bow at least, so...yeah.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 02:57:14 pm
Yeah, it basically becomes a Punch Art weapon for Paladin and Samurai.  Both classes have difficulty stacking PA, so they still won't outperform Monks at their own job.


I see. I can back that Chirijiraden then, especially since it would still be stronger (attack-wise) than Kiyomori even if we don't change that (though we should).

Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2013, 02:57:14 pm
About Earth Slash, I would still like it to be water elemental, the reason being that water is more difficult to strengthen, especially following our Genji Helm change.  This is fitting for what is arguably the best offensive skill in the set.


So noted. It still means that we have to agree on something...somehow.


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 15, 2013, 04:24:48 pm
Is anything being done to Katar? That's a lot more problematic than Lionheart IMO. WP down to 10 or 11, or it loses +1 PA? Then damage output would be closer to 2H Lionheart. Actually, +2 PA from Lionheart isn't only useful for the plain ol' Attack command, so maybe no changes need to be done? 2H Katar has hilariously absurd damage output though.

I think Katar losing +1 PA would be fine. It would be the go-to choice for max Attack damage, while Lionheart still gives you excellent attack damage in addition to the +2 PA. 5% or 10% W-EV for both weapons seems acceptable as well.


Just losing +1 PA makes it redundant (and technically inferior) to both Orichalcum and Air Knife, though.

I agree that a drop in WP would probably suffice as well as help the other knives without making Katar just wasted space as it losing +1 PA would. I don't want to talk about the other Knives just yet though despite the fact that we're "finished" with Flails.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 15, 2013, 04:24:48 pmI still think Secret Clothes could see a mild buff though. Ooh, how about Immune: Don't Move?


Hmmm...maybe. Don't Move sees relatively little use as it is though still, even if Hunting Bow is probably the best Crossbow still at present (not like that's saying much). The only other relevant thing I could think would be Immune: Poison and that might be a bit too much, even if it would help P Bag; P Bag is already getting a (minor) buff though.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 15, 2013, 04:24:48 pm
Speaking of Katanas, what if we made Kikuichimoji proc Earth Slash instead of Quake? Could see some neat Samurai or Paladins with Martial Arts builds or something. Female Samurais would rather equip Kiyomori at the moment, anyway.


At present, I don't support that, if only because Kikuichimoji the katana is the only giving male Samurai any incentive to use Faith at all. Similarly, that katana is the only katana that benefits from the current Muramasa katana. The only other katana that interacts with Muramasa's Faith proc (directly) is Masamune's Dispel one, which...Dispels it since Dispel Magic for some reason gets rid of Faith. So...yeah.

Duly noted, but I personally have to disagree with this idea for now. Chirijiraden adding +1 PA should be enough for Samurai that want to play around in Martial Arts.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 15, 2013, 10:24:10 pm
Air Knife deals high damage, but being halved by Thief Hat diminishes it's effectiveness. Yes, Oil will bypass that weakness, but as a standalone weapon, I think Katar is better.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 15, 2013, 11:21:28 pm
Uh, yeah, Katar is definitely better than Air Knife because you don't have to worry about elemental resistances, and it does plenty of damage ("lol broke damage," as you would say) anyway. The +1 PA is nice, too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 16, 2013, 12:27:52 am
(It's not like Air Knife, even as silly as it is with Oil, blows Katar away or anything. Hence why I said it was at least a close second. It's impossible to judge either as "a standalone weapon" though if we're talking about elemental resistances in one breath but not acknowledging that most Two Hand Katar users are also Cursed Ring users when that adds +1 PA and +1 Sp [and eternal "life"] in another. Meanwhile one of Air Knife's few weaknesses, beyond Thief Hat, is that it's somewhat reliant upon 108 Gems to get its real stupidity going even before Oil.

That said, I'm not sure why we're even suddenly arguing this in the first place if we agree that both weapons need to be nerfed and probably aren't going to agree otherwise. You both think Katar is definitely better; I think Air Knife might be better; they're both getting nerfed; so noted.

So let's please talk about something actually relevant given everything left to still discuss before the tournament ends.)

Speaking of which, if we're taking impromptu votes on the new sword to include with Phoenix Blade dying for good and having to choose between Kazekiri & Balmung because Shieldrender may probably stick around now, then I'll vote too: Balmung.

I'm voting for Balmung not because I came up with it--I didn't, really, at least on a completely original level that can't be definitively separated from subconsciously remembering the War of the Lions weapon that Gaignun suggested for its name.

I'm voting for Balmung for several reasons:


1. We rather desperately need more Dark type weapons, especially when the only suggested "fix" to Ko(u)tetsu Knife is to make it not Dark element. Thus far, the only weapon that's (maybe) decided on as a new Dark element weapon is Iron Fan...when we have no idea what might be happening with Poles' formula. So having a definitive third (or maybe only second) Dark element weapon would be...good.

2. We "need" a sword that actually rewards Faith since none of them currently do. The closest is Ice Brand, which has...issues on that front, partly due to the issue between Tier 1 and Tier 2 Black Magic. (Which I'm sure is partly so because of spellguns.) Other than that, the only other two swords that care about MA, Coral Sword and Ultima Weapon, don't care about Faith and one of them sucks & is changing to reward a lack of Faith. Finally, the only other MA-related option, Rune Blade, "rewards" Faith...maybe. More often than not, it's used for non-Faith MA-using options like Draw Out & Elemental.

3. We "need" a close-range causer of Stop, if only to help better justify the many things that have Immune: Stop, the bettering of Mythril Helm and the still-new Chronos Tear.

4. Similarly, we "need" a way more wide-spread causer of Stop since Books are on few classes, Harps are stuck on Bard and even if Harps get into/onto an Equip X, they'll be on Equip Magegear...which is the same one that contains Books.

5. We can make a katana Range: 2 for "stylish" combos, especially since then such combos would be free to not be bogged down by Wind element. So that makes Kazekiri as a sword kinda redundant while simultaneously making Katana more appealing than they currently are. Simultaneously, trying to fit Balmung's design onto a katana is (way) more problematic, and not just because of Innate: Two Hands.

6. We "should" not be giving Heaven's Cloud the katana more competition when it's pretty much seen no use, especially since we've yet to know what effect Genji Helm will have on it(s actual use).


So...yeah. We can just make a katana into a non-elemental "Kazekiri" if we really want a "stylish" sword that's Two Swords and Range: 2, even if for some unfathomable reason we're not changing Kiyomori the katana.

Balmung, please.

Runed EDIT: Just clarified things a bit more, especially on the previously laconic Rune Blade comment. Possibly annoyed overall tone still included. Also added another reason in another edit. I then added a final round of clarifications in yet another edit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
(Ugh. Why am I so eternally behind in everything?)

Anyway, since we're not here to answer questions that will take millennia, I figure that I will instead (vainly) try to continue to talk about the current weapon discussion so that we're doing something more or less every day. I'm both behind on this--since I meant to post it at least last night, if not Tuesday--and cutting in it half because I've already made myself late for other important things. Hurray for my usual indolence and idiocy.

As it stands now, being behind actually helped me get my katana ideas in order since I didn't think up those until last night if not right while I was typing this. So my katana-based autocracy might be doubly rough, especially since I don't have time to even pretend to proofread this--not like I proofread most things even though I should before I post. As such, I'll fix any (particularly egregious) typos when I return.

For the record, the Swords bit is mostly a recap just to show that we've mostly figured them out completely (for now) going into 1.39. I used Gaignun's coloration for things as shall soon be apparent:


SWORDS
NOT CHANGING CURRENTLY
1. Tactician's Blade


2. Moonlight


3. Blood Sword


4. Ancient Sword


5. Sleep Sword


6. Platinum Sword


7. Ice Brand: This is not changing, at least not yet.


8. Rune Blade


9. Ultima Weapon


CHANGING CURRENTLY
1. Phoenix Blade: This is dying due to its utter stupidity. Good riddance. Its place will either be given to Kazekiri/Airrender or Balmung, which is still being decided. This dying implicitly buffs every other sword and, arguably, every other weapon in ARENA.


2. Parry Edge: Its W-EV is increasing from 20% to 25%.


3. Coral Sword: This is getting an overall buff despite taking a 2-point drop in WP from 9 to 7 by getting a much better proc in the form of Suiton. This will still get to Strengthen: Water.


4. Lionheart This is getting (back) its original 10% W-EV, even though that may end up being a bad (or unnecessary) thing.


So, of swords, we've basically agreed on everything except whether Kazekiri/Airrender or Balmung should replace Phoenix Blade and, I guess, if Shieldrender should get to stick around for at least a bit. The latter has been implicitly agreed upon, but it would nice to, you know, actually affirm that definitively.

As for the former, let's compare the two current designs for them or, rather, I should say "design" since I don't recall anyone actually giving "Kazekiri" actual stats beyond it being Range 2, Wind element and probably Two Sword-able. The only other thing that was maybe agreed upon by it was that it maybe should be equal to Air Knife in WP even if it wasn't Two Hand-able (I think). So the "Kazekiri" that appears here is at best an approximation of sorts:


"Kazekiri": 11 WP, 5%: W-EV; Range: 2; Element: Wind; Two Hands: Probably Not; Two Swords: Yes. (This is no longer viable provided we go with my version of Masamune below that has Range: 2.)


Balmung: 8 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Special: 50% Cast: Stop (Spell/Ability); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Probably not.


I already gave my reasons for wanting the latter, Balmung, now.


Rending EDIT: With the revelation that Shieldrender does indeed double-hit, it probably needs change sooner rather than latter.

DO WE REPLACE THIS? AND IF SO, WITH WHAT?
Shieldrender: Probably staying as it is for now, now that we know it works and yet doesn't function in a way as broken as expected. It may yet change in though depending on how it performs, at least going into 1.40....)

While still possibly staying as it is for now even though it does double hit, it has done what we "feared" and revealed itself to indeed be double-hit capable, which could easily be a problem. A rather large problem.

In addition to that, what with my "sabotage" of Kazekiri, we now have nothing else to replace Shieldrender with if we do get rid of it--provided, you know, we agree on the new changes to Masamune that obviate Kazekiri. At present, all I can think of is an Electric type sword, but I need more time here.

Katana-Rama EDIT: With "Storm Sword" being the Zoidberg of this group changes, it's not evident that I edited it in at this time without nothing, so...

Regardless, if we get rid of Shieldrender, than perhaps we could sub-it out for this:

Storm Sword/Storm Blade/Atoms Blade/Vajra: 9 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Lightning; Special: 33% Add: Don't Move; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Probably.



KATANA
NOT CHANGING CURRENTLY
1. Murasame: This is probably fine without any additional buffs. Unlike Healing Staff, it's seen more than a token amount of use--it's actually seen a fair bit of use. It is arguably getting a bit of an implicit nerf with Berserk status becoming finite due to necessity, but Murasame the katana should still be fine.


2. Heaven's Cloud: This is not changing despite basically seeing no use. That may not be a problem, however, depending how much Genji Helm might actually help it. Due to Genji Helm, it is technically getting an implicit buff.


3. Muramasa: This is fine as it is, even if classes other than Samurai currently get the best use out of it. Perhaps especially because of that.


4. Kikuichimonji: This is also fine as it is, especially since the new Genji Helm will boost what's already technically the strongest possible Katana. So this is technically also getting an implicit buff. It saw use before Celdia left after the only other user "vanished" from the forums.

(Katana-Rama EDIT: Actually, do the Genji Helm, I agree with Gaignun that Kikuichimo(n)ji's Quake proc should decrease from 33% from 25%.)


CURRENTLY DECIDED ON CHANGES
1. Masamune: 8 WP; 15% W-EV; Special: 50% Cast: Dispel; Initial: Haste & Regen; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


2. Chirijiraden: 10 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 PA, Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


(Masamune the katana will show up again below; it only shows up above because I wanted to note the Initial: Regen aspect was universally agreed upon.)


PERSONALLY PROPOSED CHANGES
1. Asura Knife: 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Fire; +1 MA, Strengthen: Fire, Ice & Lightning; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


2. Ko(u)tetsu Knife: 10 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Strengthen: Dark & Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


3. Bizen Boat: 11 WP 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; +1 MA; Special: 100% Add: Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


4. Kiyomori: 8 WP; 20% W-EV; Range: 1; Special: 25% 50% Cast: Bio; Immune: Blind/Darkness & Poison; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes. (This loses the +2 MA it was giving.)


5. Masamune: 9 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 2; Special: 33% Cast: Dispel (Magic); Initial: Haste & Regen; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.



I'll put the reasons for the above authoritarian decisions in spoilers since they got a bit lengthy, though not terribly so for my posts (maybe):


(THESE ARE SEMI-OBSOLETE AFTER DISCUSSING WITH GAIGNUN BELOW)
1. Asura Knife: At first glance, this seems really overpowered perhaps, even with the WP drop. In actuality (or, at least, in several thought exercises), it's really not, if only because we've recently agreed that Asura is probably becoming PA*Y instead of staying MA*Y; if Asura wasn't changing, then it might be overpowered. As it is now, the current changes are meant to give a) Asura Knife a way to "get around" Fire absorb units, b) Samurai more reasons to use elemental Black Magic that isn't Water and c) people more reason to use Asura Knife in general.

When it comes to the perhaps seemingly overpowered aspect (Faith-based) magic-wise, one has to realize that even with female Samurai's relative high MA, even with the best of MA set-ups, they're still inferior to female Wizards and Summoners on this front aside from having more HP and PA. (Also, P-EV%, I guess--not like that matters if you get mid-charged.) The other classes have way more MP even without robes, more MA options with Holy Miter access and Asura Knife doesn't obviate Black Robe since that actually gives both more MP than Wizard Robe does, which is what female Samurai would have to use to achieve "max power" in Black Magic with Asura Knife. As it is now, with Circlet & Wizard Robe, female Samurai can only achieve "infinite Ice" spells with Move-MP Up. Max power Asura Knife set-ups are actually less powerful than similar, current max power set-ups with the current "Rune Blade in lazy disguise" that is Kiyomori the katana and Wizard Robe...that no one has ever really used.

I'm not going to deny that the spells from Black Magic Samurai with this set up won't hurt like hell, but that +1 MA is there both because I figure at least one Katana should still boost MA a bit and because the Tier 1 Black Magic spells are probably getting slightly nerfed anyway. Regardless, the only magic that (female) Samurai using this Asura Knife should maybe outclass other spellcasters in are the Nether spells given Draw Out Primary doesn't care about Brave or Faith at all. Even there, it's not like female Wizards can't use Draw Out Secondary--they'll just have less (a lot) HP.

Additionally, despite strengthening three elements and being usable with Two Swords, there isn't actually another Two Sword-able weapon for Asura Knife to strengthen aside from the new Fire-element Iga Knife. The elemental Rods & Mace of Zeus already self-strengthen and Ice Brand, the spellguns, Ice Bow, Lightning Bow & the new elemental spears are all not usable with Two Swords. So...yeah. It's not exactly physically overpowered either, especially with that (still probably necessary) slight WP drop and especially with Two Swords. This while also not being completely vestigial with Two Swords.


2. Ko(u)tetsu Knife: Admittedly, this design is a bit...lazy, but I couldn't think of anything else ultimately that worked. This katana, unlike the other, sure as hell wasn't getting +1 MA, especially since Koutesu will remain MA-based and AoE 2. The only other thing I could think of was giving it 100% Seal Evil...when I'm still not entirely sure if the A.I. can even "see" what weapons "proc", even if they happen at 100%. As it is now, this is the best and probably only thing that would really help while also allowing Ko(u)tetsu Knife to keep its Dark element typing (which is oh so very "needed"). [/not meant to be prideful]

It got a, as far as I'm concerned, necessary bit of a WP buff given the utter lack of Dark type weapons at present and to help it better compete with Sadist's Whip. The ability to strengthen Holy also helps in two ways beyond just allowing its user to get around units that absorb Dark, especially with Cursed Ring losing Null: Holy. It helps give armored units--well, not Lancer--access to Strengthen: Holy & Dark that they previously didn't have outside of Equip Clothing (which no one is using), which helps with (offensively) using White Magic, Summon Magic and Time Magic; also, technically Black Magic what with Death being Dark element. Arguably more important than that is fact that it rounds out the Katana category and makes them the second of only two equipment categories--the other being Rods--in all of ARENA to strengthen every element; I'm not counting accessories as a third just because of 108 Gems. That alone should help make present katana more desirable than they currently are, even with the "necessity" of losing +2 MA with the present Kiyomori "needing" to die since it's just a redundant Rune Blade.


3. Bizen Boat: This frankly has needed a WP boost for a while given how...underwhelming adding Silence is, even at 100%, with how it only (definitively) affects seven classes--most people forget Mediator/Talk Skill--and how most of those classes usually block it. Giving it so much power is perhaps a bit contrary between Two Hands, squishy mages and Silence not lasting past death, but meh. Even with the 11 WP, it's not exactly the strongest Katana even with Chirijiraden's slight, technical power drop, if only due to Murasame the katana.

It can perhaps drop to 10 WP, but it definitely needs a (WP) boost of some kind, especially if we're giving Silencer one and especially if it will now also have to compete with the new Gastrafitis/Gastraphetes/Girafarig too.


4. Kiyomori: Given people being so luke-warm to changing this for some reason, I tried to make it over in a way that proves I'm not (just) being spiteful towards it. I just think its space could be much better used than it currently is since it's a barely more evasive, ultimately redundant Rune Blade.

And so we get this admittedly possibly bloated thing that I think is still fair. Blocking both Blind & Poison isn't exactly overpowering given how much cures them--literally every status curing ability and then the Antidote item. In addition to that, one must consider that the most commonly used (heavy) Armor, Diamond Armor, blocks both of them as well. Finally both are also blocked by Ribbon/Chakra Band a.k.a. the only "Ribbon/Headband People Actually Use". So one more thing might be not exactly help, but at least it's on a low-access weapon rather than another piece of armor (or an accessory).

So, between the intentional drop in WP and those possibly lackluster immunities, I felt that it needed some power, so I gave it more W-EV and allowed it to proc Bio. The latter was chosen for quite a few reasons, though mainly because the Bio spells will no longer be otherwise existent in 1.39 and because I think there should be another katana besides Kikuichimoji that rewards Faith (status, due to Muramasa the katana).

It could probably use more refinement though, like all of these ideas, considering I just came up with it off the top of my head while typing this.


5. Masamune: So...yeah. Now you see why I made sure to make it clear that Initial: Regen was a universally agreed upon thing. This also got a bit "bloated", but only because people said they didn't want it to lose Dispel Magic. This also because, as I said earlier, I wasn't being entirely sarcastic about the Range: 2, even as much as I dislike/am apathetic towards Sephiroth and FFVII.

Admittedly, it's a bit "underhanded" to undercut the chance of "Kazekiri" being chosen over Balmung by essentially obviating "Kazekiri" with this. I was also sincere, however, when I said that I think the "stylish" sword should be non-elemental. Such a sword being non-elemental maximizes it being able to work with Two Swords.

As it is now, Dispel Magic's percentage was brought down because of the increase of Range and the buffs to initial statuses might make it 50% Dispel (Magic) obnoxious, even if it's dependent on face; the same applies for was its W-EV, which I was briefly tempted to drop all the way to 5%. It's not like every team is going to be packing debuffs, really, even with the buff to (non-proc) Dispel and the addition of Kibaku Fuda. The latter changed especially due to the fact that I figure that some of the katana should vary at least slightly in W-EV instead of all being uniform 15%.

For the record, I'm most undecided on its WP at present. People wanted it increased, but I really don't think it should be, especially if we're letting it keep Dispel Magic, giving it Initial: Regen and (I'm) giving it Range: 2. That on top of pushing it to be used with Two Swords. As such, I wouldn't mind pushing this back down to 8 WP and pushing the new Kiyomori's WP up to 9--Bio's proc for that might need to drop to 20% then though.

Shrug.



I'll talk about at least Flails & Crossbows next time, though the talk of the former is less about the Flails themselves--since those aren't changing at all now--and more who gets access to them in 1.39. I might also talk about Daggers & Knives next time too since Katar was brought up, though I still don't want that get distracted by discussions of what Knife is the "best" right now since that's  basically unimportant.


Autocratic EDIT: Hmm...it figures. The one post I made a point of not proof-reading probably had the least errors of any of my posts in a while, including some of my (much) shorter ones. Most of the syntax I fixed was just clarifying things, really.

Rending EDIT: With the revelation that Shieldrender does indeed double-hit, it probably needs change sooner rather than latter. (Just noting this outside of spoilers given the change to the Swords section isn't readily visible.)

Katana-Rama EDIT: Just noting that I've edited in the changes I replied to Gaignun with as well as noted his suggestion about Kikuichimoji. I also spaced out the weapon entries and added the Lightning-element Sword under the sword section.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
Thanks for the list.  No need to post when you have other things to do.  Life first, man.

My comments are as follows:

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
1. Asura Knife: 9 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Fire; +1 MA, Strengthen: Fire, Ice & Lightning; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


This does too much in spite of your reasons to the contrary.  This will make 16 MA female Samurai with elemental strengthening and Magic Attack UP possible (using a +1 MA accessory).  No class other than Wizards should have that kind of destructive power.

This also walks all over Black Robe, which is similarly seldom used.  Asura Knife + Wizard Robe will be leagues better than C Bag + Black Robe (assuming we're changing Kiyomori).  Compare:

Asura Knife + Wizard Robe: +3 MA, 65 HP, 40 MP, 15 W-EV
C Bag + Black Robe: +2 MA, 65 HP, 60 MP, 0 W-EV

+20 MP isn't worth the hit to MA and W-EV, so Black Robe will almost never see use on a Samurai.

At the very least, the MA bonus should be dropped.

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
2. Ko(u)tetsu Knife: 10 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Dark; Strengthen: Dark & Holy; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


Adding Holy strengthening is not justified on grounds of helping Samurai get around dark resistance.  Units that have trouble getting around resistance to their weapon are, naturally, PA-based.  However, all Holy skills are MA-based, so Holy strengthening is ineffective.

The WP boost is enough in my opinion.  At 10 WP, this self-strengthened, two-handable weapon deals beastly damage.  Commitment to a single element is the price you pay for this damage.  Of course, the current Asura is exactly the same, but is seldom used.  The best way to get these weapons used is to nerf the alternatives that eclipse them, such as Katar (which I will get to).

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
3. Bizen Boat: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; Range: 1; Special: 100% Add: Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes.


Boosting WP on grounds that its proc is often protected against is not valid in my eyes.  Silence is protected against because it is difficult to cure.  By making Bizen Boat attractive to use in spite of this will make silence-resistant gear that much more indispensable.

In other words, there's nothing wrong with the current Bizen Boat.  It just doesn't fit into the current meta-game.  Once we give silence a finite duration, players might start easing up on silence protection.  This is when Bizen Boat will become effective.

Quote from: The Damned on July 18, 2013, 04:44:40 pm
4. Kiyomori: 8 WP; 20% W-EV; Range: 1; Special: 25% Cast: Bio; Immune: Blind/Darkness & Poison; Two Hands: Yes; Two Hands: Yes.


Like Asura, this also does too much.  Before we let our creativity get the best of us, I'd like to advise against loading weapons with too many functions.  To start with, let's keep status protection to armor and accessories as much as possible.  (A weapon like Murasame, which protects against Berserk, is excused since it heals on hit.)  The Bio proc is a neat idea, though.  It fits right in with Kiyomori's Draw Out ability without being redundant.  We could bump the proc rate all the way up to 50%.  Even at this rate, it will still be outperformed by Chirijiraden in terms of DPS.

I think the Masamune change is fine.  I love me some Sephiroth.

Ninja edit Ninjedit: It seems that with the introduction of the new Genji Helmet, we should probably give Kikuichimoji a bit of a nerf:

Kikuichimoji: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Earth Element, 25% Cast: Quake

With a 25% proc rate, Kikuichomoji will deal the same average damage as a 10 WP Koutetsu on a male samurai.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 15, 2013, 11:21:28 pm
Uh, yeah, Katar is definitely better than Air Knife because you don't have to worry about elemental resistances, and it does plenty of damage ("lol broke damage," as you would say) anyway. The +1 PA is nice, too.


Yeah, Katar is a little too good at the moment.  A weapon that grants +1 Move and can be used by slippery thieves shouldn't deal damage comparable to katana and knight swords.  Dialing back its WP by 1 (to 11) is in order.  To keep knives balanced, Orichalcum will need also need its WP lowered to 11, and Air Knife will need a further, minor nerf (such as a reduction of its W-EV).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 19, 2013, 05:44:40 pm
(I'm all for nerfing Katar & Air Knife a bit more. I'm not entirely sure that Orichalcum needs to be lowered to 11, though. 11 WP seems...I'm just not sure given it doesn't add +1 PA and people really aren't using it anyway and the classes most likely to use Knives have piss poor +1 MA.)

Okay, so let's talk about Flails & Crossbows even though I'm not pretending like Gaignun is the only one who might have anything to say about the above suggestions for Katana. This especially with the revelation that Shieldrender does indeed double-hit as we "feared"; I should probably go back and edit that into red in the last post....

I guess I'll also talk about Daggers/Knives next since we keep talking about Katar. I just need more time to think on at least Mage Masher and Orichalcum.


FLAILS
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Sadist's Whip: No changes.


2. Spiked Futon: No changes.


3. Aspergillum: No changes; no longer becoming Desert Rose.


4. Scorpion Tail: No changes.


As I said above, with the decision to not change Aspergillum into Desert Rose, there's nothing to talk about when it comes to about the actual Flails themselves. Pretty much everyone agrees that they're fine and Scorpion Tail, at least, has seen rather constant use despite very few classes actually having Flail access and it not being on an Equip X currently.

Speaking of Equip Xs, that's the first thing to decide on or, at least, reaffirm. The only other things to decide on are if more classes should get access to Flails innately and, if so, which ones.

CURRENTLY CHANGING
Equip Light Blade: People seem to be fine with Flails being part of this now; so far no one has objected. Presumably, this is staying on Thief despite the change, even if Thieves perhaps don't get Flails. So I suppose it's more of a question as to whether to leave Equip Light Blade's JP alone or to increase it with this addition rather than if Equip Light Blade is actually granting Flail access at this point (which should be possible from my vague recollections of Razele's charts).


Flails on More Classes?: Initial suggested classes were Thief and Time Mage by way of Dokurider. I concur(red) with Time Mage, but have come to basically disagree about Thief, partly because even with Quickening dying and now Katar & Air Knife getting further weakened, they'll still have a bunch of good things. Additionally, as much Ninja also has a bunch of good things, the good things it has are currently actually few and just really overpowering: Kagesougi, Hidden Knife and Innate: Two Swords. Even with all the buffs they're getting going into 1.39 (so they won't be one-trick ponies), I'm still a bit...hesitant to give Thief the exact same weapon access as Ninja given they'll still have greater speed.

Still...I guess Thief also--in addition to Time Mage--getting Flails ultimately wouldn't break anything really, especially since they don't have Innate: Two Swords. It would also make "sense", at least in terms of Equip Light Blade.

I personally suggested perhaps Paladin and Geomancer as well, though the latter was mostly just due to the fact that Geomancer actually doesn't get access to very many weapons. Still, it's not like they actually really benefit from Flails, even Spiked Futon or Aspergillum, between Giant Axe and the actual paucity of Wind & Water element Elemental abilities. Paladin is much the same way, really. It's even worse for Paladin, actually, due to their lower MA (& barely higher PA) and having access to Koutetsu Knife, which really should stay Dark type even with its current issues. To be honest, I mostly suggested Flails for female Paladins, so they wouldn't have to worry about PA, rather than male Paladins. As such, both Paladin and Geomancer are probably poor choices for Flails ultimately.

Any other candidate suggestions? I know Malroth (?) mentioned Bards using Flails, but I'm not sure if he meant innately.



CROSSBOWS (or XBOWS)
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (MAYBE)
1. Night Killer: May or may not be getting a boost of 2 WP.


2. Poison Bow: May or may not be getting a reduction of 2 WP, though it really doesn't need to if Hawk's Eye isn't getting further nerfed like Hawk's Eye needs to given part of what makes that ability overpowered is it obviating Poison Bow.


3. Hunting Bow: May or may not be getting a boost of 2 WP. Unlike Night Killer, this likely doesn't need the boost though.


Bow Gun gets its own section just because it's that fucked up.

WHAT DO WE REPLACE THIS WITH?
Bow Gun: Pretty much everyone agrees that this probably needs to die, especially now that we know it actually does proc Armor Break. It's just a matter of, you know, thinking up something to actually replace it. Thus far, the only suggested one was by Dokurider in the form, as I understand it, of a Crossbow that had the same power as the current Bow Gun, but was special in that it could be Two Handed. While FFMaster agreed this might be interesting, I personally realized about a week after it came up that Dokurider had just inadvertently made a worse of the current Gastrafitis/Gastraphetes.

So...yeah. We need ideas here. At present, all I can personally think of is making another 50% Extra Attack Crossbow, which didn't exactly see use before, though Crossbows as a whole have always had problems for various reasons. (*cough*Guns*cough*)


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Silencer: 12 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 4; Special: 50% Add: Silence; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (Because, really, Silence is a mostly underwhelming status, at least when you don't have to worry about gil costs.)


2. Gastrafitis: 14 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 4; Special: 100% Random Add: Nothing, Poison, Blind, Silence or Don't Move; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (The "Add Nothing" aspect is part of Kagesougi, which really should stay and be noted in the Master Guide even if it wasn't originally unintended because otherwise that damn thing would be even more broken.)

(Also, if we're changing Gastrafitis, then like "Ramia" Harp, I really wouldn't be against fixing its name too to be Gastraphetes.)



Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
Thanks for the list.  No need to post when you have other things to do.  Life first, man.


Well it's a good thing that I have no life and don't have to pretend that I do. Wheeee.

Regardless, thanks for the feedback given you (guys) actually do have lives (probably).

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
My comments are as follows:

*Asura Knife commentary*


Fair enough. The +1 MA can drop given it was tacked only because I figured people would kvetch if some katana didn't add +1 MA anymore. "Ironically", that's probably the reason that my Black Magic calculations were slightly screwed up.

Do you think the WP drop is justified still then? Or...?

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
*Kotetsu Knife commentary*


True. I guess it not being able to get around Dark is fine if Cursed Ring is getting weakened, but now I sort of want a katana to strengthen Holy element....

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
*Bizen Boat the katana commentary*


Oh, so we are making Silence & Blind finite duration now? I was unsure about that and didn't want to skip ahead to talking about status considering I wanted to try to focus things as much as possible.

While what you say here is also true, I'm also not exactly...ready to believe that making the already somewhat weak (overall) Silence status weaker is going to do any favors for Bizen Boat ultimately despite making it less mandatory for mages (and Mediators) to block Silence.

For starters, it's still going to be pretty easy to block Silence. Additionally, depending on how long Silence lasts, we might either run into the problem where it's semi-pointless to add it if it's too short or that it's still long enough in totally obviating a unit to merit guarding against it. The latter would mean the decrease in units who don't block Silence won't be that significant.

Perhaps we can compromise on this? This especially since I said in my reasoning that I thought giving Bizen Boat that much WP was a bit contrary anyway. How about giving Bizen Boat +1 MA? Like I said, I still think a katana should boost MA a bit at least. I just don't think it should a) be by +2 MA and b) at the expense of wasting a space on a redundant weapon.

Even if we agree that the current Bizen Boat is more or less "fine", that's far different from being impressive or having incentive use it. Thus far, I think the only team that's ever made good use of it (or any use of it, really) is CT5Holy's team Ninja Muramasa & Bizen Boat team.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
*Kiyomori the katana commentary*


Understandable. I'd definitely be up for bumping the Bio proc rate to 50% and cutting the immunities out completely since I like I said, I felt they were bloated. (An unsurprising result what with having come up with that on the spot.)

I'm still not too sure about the WP power though, at least versus the buffs given to Masamune the katana. Is letting this new Kiyomori keep that 5% increase to its W-EV fine though?

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
I think the Masamune change is fine.  I love me some Sephiroth.


Man, you guys are so easy. :p

I guess one of five is being fine off the bat is something.

In thinking about it more, I've come to realize that Masamune, in undercutting Kazekiri, perhaps doesn't still quite get at what Dokurider was getting at, at least in the sense of it having the mass distribution of a Sword. For the most part, I'm personally fine with that given the "stylishness" is still available to at least three classes: Paladin, Samurai and Ninja. Ironically, of the three, Ninja are already the ones most likely to use the Katana they're equipping to actually attack with.

As such, this gives Samurai incentive to actually use Two Swords at all given, right now, the only Two Swords katana combo they pull off better than Ninja currently are all Kikuichimoji-related. The combinations Muramasa & Kikuichimoji, Chirijiraden & Kikuichimoji and double Kikuichimoji are the only things Samurai do better than Ninja since even male Samurai have the MA to back up Quake procs. Giving Samurai extra range with Two Swords would help the disparity a bit even though Samurai and Ninja have the exact same PA, if only because the male Samurai have, again, better MA as well as the ability to potentially re-add Haste & Regen.

(Hmmm...maybe we should drop [male] Ninja PA's by one, especially if it's possible to leave Kunoichi's PA alone.... It would certainly help the Kagesougi situation more....)

Similarly, on top of Genji Helm, Knights get a buff in using Katana now that it will extend their Sword and Axe (read: Slasher) range potentially. Ninja can similarly extend the range of some Daggers/Knives and all of their Ninjato & Flails. So Masamune, even as a Katana, will still allow some good stylish diversity with everything that can be Two Sworded anyway (on the physical side). That's pretty good for only being available on three classes instead of seven--well, six given Druids won't have Swords anymore anyway...maybe.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 19, 2013, 01:10:47 pm
Ninj, Na edit Ninjedit: It seems that with the introduction of the new Genji Helmet, we should probably give Kikuichimoji a bit of a nerf:

Kikuichimoji: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Earth Element, 25% Cast: Quake

With a 25% proc rate, Kikuichomoji will deal the same average damage as a 10 WP Koutetsu on a male samurai.


Yeah, I agree, especially since we're not nerfing Quake's power (or even its CT) currently from what I understand and procs don't care about MP (increases), so....


Cross EDIT: Omitted the minor comment in the beginning parenthetical about Orichalcum going down to "12 WP, yes"...since it's already at that. Otherwise, I just added space between things and added some minor commentary next to Silencer and Gastraphetes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 06:58:19 pm
For the record, other people have definitely used Bizen Boat in the past, though it did have higher WP at the time (still had 100% silence on hit). And just because most people block Silence doesn't mean everyone does. Bizen Boat is generally the most useful katana to attack with. The incentives are there, I would think. It's just that there are more efficient units/builds for physical attacks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 08:09:00 pm
Coral sword is loosing 2WP???  Awww there goes the idea for a Twohanded Dancer spamming 380 damage Grand crosses every round
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 19, 2013, 09:36:03 pm
(I think I should do some research tonight....)

That's part of why it's losing some WP, Malroth.

Now that you mention it though, that's something I've always been kind of unclear about: Does Two Hands actually count for double PA/MA within weapon based formulas like Grand Cross or Kagesougi?

I was always under the impression that it didn't, but it's not like I haven't been (horribly) wrong before (read: constantly).


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 06:58:19 pm
For the record, other people have definitely used Bizen Boat in the past, though it did have higher WP at the time (still had 100% silence on hit). And just because most people block Silence doesn't mean everyone does.


Well, yeah. It's not like I was trying to give the impression that Bizen Boat the katana was never used or that it's outright horrible (like, say, Iron Fan) or anything. I was just stating the fact that it has been used very little rather recently (read: the past year) and that I'm just skeptical that making Silence finite will have that much of effect on its current disuse if it stays exactly as is. Especially since, again, we're strengthening three other methods of adding Silence between buffing Silencer, Gastraphetes and probably Nameless Dance; we're arguably buffing four given the changes to Yin-Yang Magic's skill set, so....

(Speaking of Nameless Dance, that is basically the only thing that has been catching people not using Silence protection on mages [and Mediators] despite the fact that lack of said protection has already been happening more and more. So already Bizen Boat use should be increasing...and yet it's not even though Samurai and Paladin use is still quite high.)

Additionally, one also has to keep in mind two very important facts about 1.38 with regards to Bizen Boat as well:


1. 1.38 has already been out for longer than several past versions combined.

2. ARENA now has twice as many people as it usually had and more than twice as many teams as it usually has ever had at any one time previously.


...And yet Bizen Boat has only been used like...four times in the past year...and I'm counting your aforementioned (kinda old) team as at least one instance, if not two instances. 

Granted, a lot of this has to do with other weapons, like current Battle Axe, and Katana only being available innately to two classes--unlike Flails, I'm fine with Katana staying that way. It also doesn't help that current Kiyomori the katana is both redundant and rather braindead, basically monopolizing Katana use on Samurai. Even getting rid of Kiyomori's +2 MA as I think we should, improving the other "troubled" katana just makes an unimproved Bizen Boat even less appealing though.

So...yeah. I'll remain extremely skeptical about Bizen Boat the katana seeing any significant jump in use even after we actually decide on how long Silence "should" last as a newly finite status if Bizen Boat doesn't at least see a bit of a buff. While the WP boost admittedly might have been too much, I don't think giving it +1 MA is asking that much, especially since that's not contrary to trying to add Silence in the first place.

Speaking of which....

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 06:58:19 pmBizen Boat is generally the most useful katana to attack with. The incentives are there, I would think. It's just that there are more efficient units/builds for physical attacks.


Aren't those rather contrary things to say? I mean, I guess I get what you're saying: that of the katana, Bizen Boat has the most reward for the least risk upon attacking (unlike, say, Muramasa, which is high risk, high reward).

That's not exactly the same thing as most "useful" though, especially when only seven skill sets are affected by Silence at present and killing a mage is effective as silencing them (given Silence doesn't last past death), which is even easier to do with Innate: Two Hands.

Again, the current Bizen Boat katana isn't horrible. It's just not...impressive and even if something has to be at the bottom of use inevitably, that something seems like it could still use a bit of a buff in this case without transforming into some game-breaking piece of equipment.

...Bizen Boat the ability, on the other hand, probably still needs to be further nerfed; I figure it would probably be best to talk about Magic Ruin, Spell Absorb, Bizen Boat and Witch Hunt all at once though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 10:01:24 pm
QuoteBizen Boat is generally the most useful katana to attack with. The incentives are there, I would think. It's just that there are more efficient units/builds for physical attacks.


Ah, to clarify my point, compare a samurai using AUP Bizen Boat vs 2H Katar Thieves. The Katar Thieves do comparable damage (probably less, but the damage output of both builds is "realllllllly high"), but they're naturally 2 SP faster than Samurai, and can more easily boost their Speed with equipment, which doesn't actually hurt damage potential since knives use both PA and SP in their damage formula.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure Two Hands will not affect skills like Grand Cross, Southern Cross, Kagesougi, etc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm
Magic ruin is fine how it is, its single target, takes off half their max MP instantly but has a chance to miss. It doesn't see any use because Bizen bolt, JP concerns, and the fact that Quickening/Steal Heart/Bad Luck are so much better options

Spell Absorb is Pretty Weak vs most targets but can restore the users MP in addition to Draining it from the target. It sees little use because most view it as a MP healing move inferior to chakara (even on an oracle)  or Ether because of needing a high MP high faith enemy and it having its own MP cost so its unusable as a Bizen bolt counter.   I think this spell shoud cost 0 making it a viable method of giving the caster additional MP even in the most dire of situations

Bizen Bolt is VASTLY overpowered compared to other MP depleting strategies 10xMA stacking magic attack up is almost concidered too overpowered for HP damage moves and since MP totals are lower almost nothing will have MP after even a Mediocre Draw out user uses it.  5 or 6xMA  is a much better starting point letting an average draw out user deplete the reserves of Support melee but take work to drain a dedicated caster dry.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 20, 2013, 01:41:24 am
I will comment more on the current dialogue at a later time, but let me say this for now:

Bizen Boat (MA * 9) is the way it is because of the way the AI uses it. They primarily use it as a mid charge tactic. If the AI can't stop the spell (because MP is too high), then they simply will not use it. As the AI uses it, nerfing it's damage output altogether might just brick it entirely, because the AI has a history of not using such skills proactively. Anyways, I'm pretty sure your collective next step is to demand this poor technique be dragged out of the streets and shot for exploiting and oppressing the Mage Class. You guys however have to put this in perspective.

Yes Bizen Boat can wipe out a MP pool in one blow, but given the bevy of MP restoration techniques everywhere, your average mage isn't going to be down for very long, two turns at the most, and perhaps at reduced capacity if you're using high MP spells. Is Bizen Boat's interception ability really that big of a deal when it basically does what Sinkhole, Silence Song, and other status intercept abilities that do that already, but have much more persistent and more complete effects? I'll follow this up with a suggestion or two sometime this weekend so try to resist the urge to have Bizen Boat's entrails smeared all over the streets for being somewhat, if at all, unbalanced.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on July 20, 2013, 09:23:26 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on July 20, 2013, 01:41:24 am
Is Bizen Boat's interception ability really that big of a deal when it basically does what Sinkhole, Silence Song, and other status intercept abilities that do that already, but have much more persistent and more complete effects?


Yeah it is, actually. Sure, the AI typically uses it as a disrupt ability, but it also does use it even when the enemy mage isn't casting anything at the time. I see what you're saying, but the problem with BB is not only that it's AoE, but the thing is both instant AND unevadable. That alone makes it way too good. Not to mention it also doesn't give a care about fury or faith, has no cost whatsoever, and can potentially hit an entire team, unlike most interception abilities which either require charging, are subject to evasion, are subject to faith, is single target, isn't 100% guaranteed to hit anyway (i.e. Insult, Mimic Daravon), can be resisted/avoided/protected against by various equipment in some way or another, or any combination of the above. Add to the fact that the skill is present on a class that has naturally good MA values and can potentially be MA stacked (not that people MA stack just to get more MP damage from BB mind you, I mainly say that for those untis that have stuff like Chiri, Koutetsu and what not, and just happen to have Bizen Boat in their arsenal), and it get quite stupid to deal with. And what's worse is that Bizen Boat can screw over, not just mages, but any unit that has to rely on MP to use their skills to be worth anything. Sometimes, this can be an entire team.

I agree with Malroth & Damned. Mages already have enough crap they have going against them. Bizen Boat, as it is now, is too good and needs to be dealt with.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Avalanche on July 21, 2013, 03:16:54 am
i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action. But it is used very rarely by the ai. I think the AI uses it ifff: Enemy unit is charging and can be stoped by BB and there is no way to kill that unit or to put it into critical. So BB is an huge investment but very unreliable, So one cant integrate it into a strategy. It is more of a left-over-Jp spell.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 07:19:05 am
Yeah, most of those interruption statuses are somehow blockable in a way or two. So would Bizen Boat be balanced if it was counterable somehow? What if we made it so MP Restore and Absorb MP triggered on MP damage?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on July 21, 2013, 04:19:16 pm
Quote from: Avalanche on July 21, 2013, 03:16:54 am
i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action.


Doesn't matter how the AI uses it, the fact is Bizen Boat is simply not balanced for Arena the way it is currently. That's like saying how Vanilla Calcs can use CT5 Holy to one-shot entire maps in one action, but yet not acknowledge the fact that it's broken so there's no problem with it. Then again, this is Arena and not Vanilla, so...that might be a bad example. But you see where I'm going with that.

Quote from: DokuriderYeah, most of those interruption statuses are somehow blockable in a way or two. So would Bizen Boat be balanced if it was counterable somehow? What if we made it so MP Restore and Absorb MP triggered on MP damage?


Could be a possible solution, I think. Maybe not so much for MP Restore, but for Absorb MP? It could work I suppose. But I think it still needs to become evadable at the very least or have its numbers lowered a bit (or both).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andante49 on July 21, 2013, 04:33:34 pm
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on January 06, 2013, 05:11:18 am
Also Gaignun, changing the trigger for a Reaction is a lot more skin-grafting agony than you'd be lead to believe.


Maybe making Bizen Boat have an MP cost like all the other MP damaging abilities? It would then trigger Absorb MP.

In a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
QuoteBalmung


I don't agree that a close range, Faith Spell proc is truly necessary. No proc in the world, even 50% Flares, will ever convince your average fighter to take more Faith then he has to. Surviving long enough to get into range is key for a successful melee user and dying to spells on the way there just because you wanted to take advantage of a proc is counterproductive. It's one of the reasons why Silver Bow had laid unused for so long: nobody wants to trade magical weakness to take advantage of a proc.

Now I'm not saying that Cast: Stop is worthless or a bad idea, far from it. It would be very valuable to Yin-Yang Mongers and hybrid units. Or anyone will just take it and roll with the odds. It's just not as necessary as your saying. Increasing Stop's influence, however, isn't a bad idea.

QuoteSave the Sea Bags


I was actually more or less agreeing with you in a twisted way by demonstrating just how redundant C Bag has become. However, I can understand many people's (my own included) hesitance to remove some +2 MA weapons. "Why should my class lose damage output?" is the common question I asked myself, particularly around Kiyomori. There's also the issue that Samurai, a class that relies heavily on MA and uses a weapon class that's almost exclusive to them and mostly built to help them be more varied and flexible, loses it's +2 Weapon while the more common Sword class gets to keep it's +2 MA weapon and power up physical classes like Thieves and Paladins that'll almost never need it.

We don't have to remove the +2 MA completely. We can just knock it down to +1 MA or even +1 MA and something extra on some of the current MA weapons.

QuoteBizen Boat (katana)

Even in this Wall of Silence we currently have going on, Silence still has applications. In fact, Bizen Boat can get it on units that would otherwise not have to worry about Silence. First off, hybrid caster units like Yin Yang/Time Magic Paladins can be commonly found without Silence protection because they can't really afford the protection or don't care because they have other things they can be doing. But the most common spell units that don't use Silence protection would be Talk Skillers because the AI primarily uses Silence Song as an interception tactic and only casts it outside of that application if they don't have anything better to do. Otherwise they usually enjoy being exempt from being Silenced, unless Bizen Boat comes into the picture and shuts them up without the AI even connecting the dots.

Think of it more as Anti-Talk Skill, because I'll tell you now, it's a better way of countering Talk Skill then Finger Guard. I was going to use it on my Season 2 team, but I decided I needed a Item Nanny/Frog Proc was more useful then shutting down Talk Skillers. Either way, Silence's CT nerf should make Silence defense more lax.

QuoteIn a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?

I suppose it did. I think it's because no one's really sure if it's better to make MP more available to everyone. While I think it would be a powerful benefit to Fighter types with 24 MP, it could be a problem on Mages, because now they don't need to invest into MP gaining skills so strongly anymore, meaning stronger mages. If MP Regen was to be introduced, I would propose that it heals a flat 4 MP/turn so it helps Fighter types while not helping Mage types (that much). MP Poison, however, will still work on a %MP rate.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
(For the record, I meant talking about Bizen Boat and its out-classifed competitors together later. I guess "later" is, in this instance, now rather than something continually put off.

Oh well. I suppose it was foolish to think that I could get through all of weapons without any talk of abilities coming up.

OTHERWISE, WARNING: Walls of text and necessarily copious spoiler abuse incoming. You have been warned.)

That said, I'll still wait to address those things in replies to others.

For now, we'll talk about Knives, Longbows & Guns given I want to get the Gun ideas out of the way given I keep talking about another healing weapon (actually capable of decent healing unlike the new 1.39 P Bag).

First, though, let's talk about yet new another Sword idea:


Storm Sword/Storm Blade/Atoms Blade/Vajra: 9 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Lightning; Special: 33% Add: Don't Move; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Probably.


Please note: This sword would only be necessary to even consider if we are going back to getting rid of Shieldrender in addition to Phoenix Blade, as originally planned, but also accepting my proposed Masamune that obviates Kazekiri. As such, I'll keep my reasons for the creation of this relatively brief.


Much like Balmung and Dark-element weaponry, I think the creation of another Lightning-element close-range weapon is needed. Unlike Balmung and Dark-element weaponry, this is not because of paucity of Lightning-element weapons as there are four already with a guaranted fifth on the way. No, this is because the current Lightning close-range weapons blow, Lightning Bow has issues and Blast Gun is getting necessarily weakened.

Well, that's not entirely fair to Lightning Thunder Rod given it has to have the least WP of the elemental Rods between self-strengthen & the Bolt spells having the most power. The only thing is that elemental Rods being great for attacking is, thus far, largely confined to paper. Additionally, the self-strengthening issue plagues the only good (non-redudant) Staff in Mace of Zeus and Blast Gun has the lowest WP by neccessity (as it still will, going into 1.39).

Lightning Bow is actually pretty decent, it just  has major competition issues between Blast Gun, Mythril Bow and Ultimus Bow. Thankfully it lacks Ice Bow's additional issue of having incompatible absorption on accessories too given how Jade Armlet gives  Ice Bow the finger and yet is the only accessory to block Stop, which Ice Bow would otherwise cause on those who absorb it; Lightning Bow gets walled by Rubber Shoes, but you can at least block Don't Act in another way between the currently underpowered Defense Armlet and the comparatively great Wizard Mantle. Thankfully, all of those particular issues with regards to the Bows are getting "fixed".

(This is part of the reason I'm adding Longbows to the agenda since I was originally just going to talk about Knives & Guns.)

Regardless, Lightning is much like Dark in that I don't think it's ever really had a good team capable of using the physical side of its absorb. This makes sense when half of its weapons suck for the Crosses, Thunder Rod & Lightning Bow basically see no use, Blast Gun has the weakest WP of the Spellguns and, oh yeah, three of these weapons are based off MA. Even Lightning Bow isn't entirely based off PA, so...yeah. Although Partisan becoming Lightning element will somewhat fix that, I figure another new Lightning element PA weapon is warranted, especially since Spears are only innate to one class anyway. (Again, like Katana, Harps & Cloths, I think that's probably fine.)

Beyond that, I thought giving it Don't Move would be the fairest thing as a proc and would have nice synergy in pushing the to-be-improved Defense Armlet even more. I also figured that 33% wouldn't step on either Hunting Bow or the to-also-be-improved Ninja Edge, especially since this might be usable with Two Swords. (That if only for the sake of letting Thunder Rod and the possibly new Asura Knife see some use [with Two Swords].) In determining its WP, I figured that we could use a pseudo-Coral Sword replacement (that's better than the current Coral Sword) even though Coral Sword is changing for the better. The Two Swords and WP "issues" are mainly why, unlike Coral Sword, this has no self-Strengthen, though the power of the Bolt spells helped it not get that as well.


Damn. That was supposed to be "relatively brief".

Anyway, let's get into the actual "meat" of this, where apparently I'll be talking about four categories now, though the fourth will wait until replies:


KNIVES (OR DAGGERS, WHICHEVER; PICK ONE)
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Throwing Knife: There were a couple of brief debates earlier about whether or not to increase the WP on this. Apparently more people were fine with its current WP than not, so it's not changing (at present).


2. Repel Knife: This just hasn't been discussed because it hasn't seen much use yet, which is largely my fault for saying that I thought it was acting up (and then no one, myself included, indeed rigorously confirming that). It's debatable whether its proc might to drop eventually in percentage teams, but yeah, this has had no discussion and I'm not sure it *needs* the slight nerf per se, at least right now.


3. Platina Dagger: Apparently this is one of only two daggers that everyone is perfectly fine with right now. For good reason.


4. Main Gauche: The second of the "perfectly fine" daggers, though it may need its WP dropped if Katar, Air Knife, and Orichalcum lose WP.


CURRENTLY CHANGING (MOSTLY WITH NECESSARY NERFS):
1. Dual Cutters: 8 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; Special: 50% Cast: Extra Attack; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: Yes. (This is literally the only definitely changing Knife that's not being nerfed out of necessity. Who would have thought that would have to happen back during 1.37?)

2. Orichalcum: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; +1 MA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (The weapon drop here is in red because, personally, I really don't think Orichalcum needs to drop down too Katar, yes. Orichalcum, possibly, but it seems unlikely given it doesn't boost itself like Katar does, especially when Two Handed. Shrug.)


3. Katar: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; +1 PA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (This was only recently decided given it's abundantly clear that current Katar and Air Knife are both rather stupid, especially with them being on current Thief.)


4. Air Knife: 12 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; Element: Wind; Two Hands: Yes ; Two Swords: No. (The weapon drop here is in red because I still contend that it should drop in power more and now people seem to agree with that, with it recently being argued that it should drop to 11 WP. I'm just using the 12 WP drop because it's in Gaignun's thread though. Also, it's losing its Special: 25% Add: (?) Blind & Silence, which is fine since it was supposed to 25% Add: Sleep anyway...which would have been overkill anyway.)



AND THE KNIFE NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT EVEN THOUGH THEY PROBABLY SHOULD BE (LIKE HOW THEY ARE WITH KATAR NOW, ONLY THIS THING SUCKS):
Mage Masher: This knife is currently in a rather dubious place, if only because of its proc. Unlike what it says in the Master Guide, Mage Masher actually procs Bizen Boat at about at least 50%, not Silence. This would maybe be fine...if Bizen Boat, despite being currently overpowered, didn't actually suck on most of (actual) Knife users. The fact that this has seen very little use doesn't help.

So...should this go "back" to 50% Silence? Stay with 50% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Silence? Get other changes?

...Or should it just die?

Face it. Mages don't really need much extra "mashing", especially at present between spellguns & Bizen Boat the ability, them currently taking being Poisoned (forever) much worse than other classes, Quickening and them being easily OHKO'd by a lot of things; well, technically they're 2HKO'd by Kagesougi, but still. Of those, only spellguns & Quickening are getting huge nerfs at present and even then spellguns will still be doing the most damage to mages (since it's not like any physically-based class is likely to have 40 Brave that often). Similarly, the Poison thing and Kagesougi are being slightly addressed, more so the former even though not every mage is going to have White Magic (and shouldn't have to).

Additionally, Mage Masher is already a mediocre-at-best weapon that is only going to get worse between the aforementioned changes to the Silence-inducing weapons and the much needed buff Spell Edge is getting. Hell, even without buffing Bizen Boat the katana (even though I still think it deserves at least slight buff), Bizen Boat is outright a better weapon than Mage Masher between the katana doing more damage and having a 100% proc. The same goes for Monster Dict too I'd argue, especially since that's at least usable as a Southern Cross tool as well despite its proc arguably having...issues.

So...yeah. At present, the only "fix" that I can think of would be maybe to shift it from Two Swords-capable to Two Hands-capable so it doesn't have to compete with  the new Spell Edge and let it keep 50% Bizen Boat. Even that's kinda meh, though. Maybe. Not too sure....

I'm somewhat increasingly of the opinion that Mage Masher should maybe just die, but that's more because I can't think of anything to do with it, partly because it's not broken or even overpowered. The only other thing I could think of would be to switch its proc to Dark Sword perhaps. It seems likely to then become overpowering, however, or at least pretty annoying. Additionally, it would step on the new Spell Edge, though perhaps less so with the Two Hands thing.

...Similarly, with a bit more thought since I mentioned it above, I suppose one could give Mage Masher the ability to proc Magic Ruin and, instead, give the Dark Sword proc to Monster Dict. After all, it would make more sense for the Mage Masher to still destroy MP rather than drain it while the Book user would likely want to actually use their MP since it's backed up by MA.

Then again, given Dark Sword's formula, at least in vanilla, is just PA*WP and Monster Dict has 15 WP...yeah. That's a drain of at least 120 MP easy, which seems a tad much....

So maybe we ultimately want to change Mage Masher to a Dancing Dagger or Tonberrian or something...else.

Shrug.

All I know is that, at the very least, we need to decide if it should remain capable of using the 50% Bizen Boat that it's currently not supposed to be using (much like how we did with Spell Edge).



(LONG)BOWS
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Silver Bow: Finally seeing some use in the past few months due to Dokurider's initial promotion of it. After seeing it do more damage on average than I expected, I'm rather glad we didn't go with my idiotic suggestion to give it +2 MA like Ice Bow & Lightning Bow. It's already getting an implicit buff with Cursed Ring losing Null: Holy.


2. Ice Bow: As aforementioned, this is implicitly getting a buff with the change to Jade Armlet meaning you can finally use this on Ice Absorb teams without having to use Equip Armor just for currently "meh" Mythril Helm (while also forced to use an Ice Shield and the also currently meh Defense Armlet); both Mythril Helmet and Defense Armlet getting buffed might in itself be a buff (though Mythril Helmet by itself may be a nerf). Of course, it's also arguably getting a bit of nerf in that Jade Armlet's Null: Ice is going to Defense Ring, which is still going to be rather common.

Alas, such is the fate of Ice.


3. Lightning Bow: As also aforementioned, implicitly getting a bit of a buff and a nerf with the buff to Defense Armlet. Otherwise, like Ice Bow, it's actually fine, it's just seeing no use due to having too many overpowered competitors.


4. Windslash Bow: Also currently fine. Technically getting a bit of a buff due to a lot of the armor getting something of a HP, so Hurricane procs will take off more damage; it will also heal more on Wind Absorb units on average and now benefit from Genji Helm. (Of course, by that same token, weapons that aren't increasing in WP are getting a very slight nerf, but I'm not counting that since Windslash Bow is literally the only weapon capable of taking advantage of the HP gains for offense and healing.)


In addition to all that, the reason all the not-changing bows are in Green is because most of their competitors are getting needed nerfs, including two of weapons in this very same category.


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Long Bow: 14 WP; 10% W-EV; Range: 6; +1 Move; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swwords: No. (The only Longbow getting a buff...that I'm still not entirely sure it actually needs, but I'm not against it getting a buff, so it should be interesting. It's probably more justified now that Cursed Ring is losing Null: Holy and given more than half of the other bows can be strengthened with the other two are still going to be outright stronger than Longbow. The interesting bit comes from the fact it would the only +1 Move where the A.I. will probably use that additional Move to move away from the opponent without needing Teleport to try to encourage the A.I. to not charge in for once.)


2. Mythril Bow: 14 WP; 0% W-EV;; Range: 5; +1 SP; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (Gets a much needed slight nerf in WP given how ridiculous it actually is, especially given how powerful +1 SP can be and when used in conjuction with things like Hawk's Eye.

The W-EV is in red because it's listed as 0% in Gaignun's thread and I'm assuming it's just a typo. Not that I would mind it going to 0% W-EV from 10% W-EV....)


3. Ultimus Bow: 15 WP; 0% W-EV;; Range: 5; +1 PA; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (Similarly gets a much needed slight nerf in WP given how absurd it actually is, especially in conjuction with Kagesougi's current stupidity.

As above, the W-EV is in red because it's listed as 0% in Gaignun's thread and I'm assuming it's just a typo. Again, I wouldn't exactly mind it going to 0% W-EV from 10% W-EV....)



GUNS
CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (THOUGH I WISH TO CHANGE THAT)
1. Romanda Gun: Of the two, this would be the one that's "dying".


2. Mythril Gun: Of the two, this would be the one that comes out of the merge "intact".


I'll list my ideas for changing those separate from the Guns we've actually agree upon changing presently, which come first:


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Blaze Gun: 14 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Special: Attacks with Cast: Nether Fire; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (The only gun that's currently getting anything resembling a buff with a slight WP boost that I...guess is merited. Maybe. I don't feel like calculating anything right now and I vaguely trust Gaignun. [/indolence] [/faint praise]

It may go back to the Grand Cross shenanigans that I wasn't around for, but meh. As long it's no longer OHKO'ing mages effortlessly even if they have 40 Faith (or, in this case, 70 Brave) and largely obviating their attack power, I don't exactly give a damn about that.

We'll see if the Spellguns still should end up Forced Two Hands as well as I initially proposed. For now, allowing the new Nether Spellguns to still be able to be used with Shields might actually be fine.)


2. Glacier Gun: 12 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Special: Attacks with Cast: Nether Ice; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (A much needed nerf...that may ultimately leave Ice in the cold due to Defense Ring. [/gets shot])


3. Blast Gun: 11 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Special: Attacks with Cast: Nether Bolt; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (A much needed nerf...that amusingly shouldn't much affect Rek's "Severe Weather Alert" team in actuality.)


4. Stone Gun: 12 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; Initial: Petrify; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (This gets an implicit buff from the spellguns being nerfed, which once again makes it the strongest gun overall as it should given its literally initial drawback. Beyond that, the nerf is also needed given it will implicitly buff Longbows and especially Crossbows which were previously out-ranged, out-damaged and less accurate than this thing; they were literally outgunned. It no longer being able to be used with Shields also provides an interesting "test case" finally since I, personally, also found it ridiculous that all of the guns could be used with Shields [even in vanilla].)


With that out of the way, let me add yet more of my own machinations:

WE CAN REBUILD THEM; WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY

1. Mythril Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 6; +2 MA; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (This is the merger of Romanda Gun and Mythril Gun that essentially ends up as just a buff to Mythril Gun's damage. I guess one could also instead see this as a bit of a mixed nerf to Romanda Gun between the slight range drop and the fact that it got +2 MA.

Regardless, while both see some use and have been seeing slightly increasing use, if only to pick off anything the spellguns don't kill for the most part, they're really not different enough to merit taking up two spaces in my opinion. So they get merged into one still good gun that isn't entirely obviated by Stone Gun.

I guess we could increase the Range to 7 because of said Stone Gun, but given Stone Gun is getting slightly nerfed and people were apparently fine leaving Mythril Gun as it is, it probably doesn't need added Range.)


2. Vector Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 8; Special: Heals on Hit; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (So...I'll let that triple reference sink in for a bit.

...Done? Anyone not get the Star Ocean 2 one?

Anyway, despite the change to P Bag, I still say that we could use another healing weapon that's capable of, you know, actually healing for a significant if only moderate amount. The change to P Bag doesn't exactly do that unless, maybe, you give it to a (male) Samurai...which is kinda undermined in that they get access to Two-Handed Murasame, which is already the strongest healing weapon in ARENA, and Light Robe. Whatever buffs probably given to Healing Staff will also not help P Bag as a healing item comparatively; let's please leave talking about Staves for the end of weapons though given that's easily the most contentious weapon category. P Bag healing on hit just means the A.I. won't be stupid about attacking with a Bag for once in most instances.

Meanwhile, we had no additional healing weapons despite at least one much needed nerf to Auto Potion upcoming. We also still had no healing weapons that could be used from range. And while P Bag actually fulfills the bit about encouraging Mediators to use Praise and Solution instead of idiotically attacking with it, putting healing on a Gun would help Mediators (and Archers and even Chemists) actually be capable of, you know, healing people.

So I came up with this thing that doubles even Chemist healing range, makes it so that Chemists don't necessarily have to use Potions and can undo the damage of the oft-obnoxious Comet, which is only going to get more obnoxious with Auto Potion being weakened. It would also help against the horde of Cursed Ring users; the last part may be hampered by Projectile Guard--it all depends on if that will actually stop a healing weapon. [Did/does Blade Grasp block Healing Staff? If not, then this should get around Projectile Guard when not being used for Hawk's Eye or Breaks or whatever that's actually offensive to even non-Undead.]

All this while at the same time being unlikely to become obnoxious itself. I was originally going to make it only 9 WP to "replace" Auto Potion in a way without stepping on the new Mythril Gun's toes, but then I figured that would make Vector Gun too weak. As it is now, even with 10 WP, it won't really ever out-heal X-Potion, much less Hi-Potion on units with HP higher than 300 HP. At least, it won't do this unless you basically go out of your way to give the user max Fury and either Best compat. or, amusingly, Warpath, which is in itself rather encouraging. If anything, it might need a slight increase to 11 WP, but I'm unsure.

Presently, I'm way more unsure about its range than its WP as Range: 8 might be a tad obnoxious. If no one really complained about that for Romanda Gun, however, I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem for a healing weapon. This especially when every damage-oriented unit can rather easily outdo 100 damage on all but the most defensive of units. [And it's not like 40/40 units are going to be that appealing anymore between the Spellguns' changes and Death's buff.])


So...yeah. Yay? Nay? Maybay?



Oh, I guess I should point out that I went back and spaced the previous weapons lists as well as well as added the newer Katana changes I replied to Gaignun with and the Lightning-element Sword over Kazekiri.

Okay, so I'm going to now respond to things in quotes.


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 10:01:24 pm
Ah, to clarify my point, compare a samurai using AUP Bizen Boat vs 2H Katar Thieves.


Oh. Will do, chief.


Let's assume that both a male Samurai and a male Thief have (near) max damage set-ups, have Move +1 Movement instead of Warpath, have 70 Fury/Brave and are attacking units with 40 Brave. So the Samurai has Bizen Boat the katana, Barbuta, Carabini Mail and Bracer. The Thief has Katar, Thief Hat, Black Costume and Cursed Ring.

Now, let's compare them on all fronts with the current versions of the weapons.


Samurai vs. Thief:

1. HP: 384 (154 + 110 + 120) vs. 304 (144 + 60 + 100 + Half: Earth, Wind & Water + Absorb: Fire & Dark + Null: Holy + Effective Immorality) [Winner: Thief.]

2. MP: 43 vs. 19 [not like this matters...for the Samurai, unless he's using Basic Skill for Accumulate; the Thief probably has Punch Art Secondary for Quickening stupidity and healing.] [Winner: Thief.]

3. Sp: 8 vs. 12 (10 + 1 + 1) [and the latter is before Quickening, in which case it's probably at least 13 before going on the Attack] [Winner: Thief.]

4. PA: 17 [13 (9 + 1 + 1 + 2) x 1.33] vs. 11 (9 + 1 + 1) [Winner: Samurai.]

5. MA: 9 vs. 3 [again, not terribly important here, though Draw Out and Steal Heart do go off MA.] [Winner: Samurai.]

6. Move: 4 (3 + 1) vs. 5 (4 + 1) [Winner: Thief]

7. Jump: 3 vs. 4 [Winner: Thief]

8. Evasion: 20% P-EV; 0% M-EV vs. 35% P-EV; 0% M-EV [Winner: Thief]

9. WP: 9/18 (with Two Hands) vs. 12/24 (with Two Hands) [Winner: Thief]

10. Damage to 40 Brave Units: 241 [(17 * 18) * ((105 * 75)/10000)] vs. 217 [(((11 + 12)/2) * 24) * [(105 * 75)/10000)] [Winner: Samurai.]


So, yeah. Given I actually did math correctly for once, Samurai with max damage set-ups beat a Thief that isn't quite as optimized but is basically what we're seeing and isn't really a slouch. If you maxed out Thief PA to 16 with Twist Headband, Power Sleeve and Bracer, you'd lose speed but then you'd to 312 (13 * 24), which actually does more than Bizen Boat which "only" has an effective 306 (17*18) power before Fury. (A PA stacked Thief would thus do 246, which isn't much more, but still more.)

Even without the max PA set-up, though, the Thief is obviously the (way) better build even before Cursed Ring shenanigans given that such a character is getting to attack literally as twice as much as the Samurai. That means Thief's effective damage is actually 434. [/Winner: Thief]



That said, given how much damage Katar would be doing even without the +1 PA (i.e. if it were Orichalcum), perhaps Orichalcum does need to a WP drop. This even though it would tend remain markedly inferior to Katar and Air Knife, which rather defeats the point of its existence.

...So, I find it more likely that, like (male) Ninja, (male) Thief probably just needs to drop in PA by one point, especially given their Speed and far increased damage options.


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 10:01:24 pm
EDIT: I'm pretty sure Two Hands will not affect skills like Grand Cross, Southern Cross, Kagesougi, etc.


Well, yes. In double-checking one of the few bibles I actually believe in as something other than mythology, the BMG (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197339-final-fantasy-tactics/faqs/3876), I was reminded that Two Hands actually doubles WP despite what the Master Guide currently says; that should probably be fixed. The BMG also says straight out that it doesn't apply to Battle Skill even though those technically default to Attack.

Still, I wonder about Kagesougi at least some times and it seems better to be safe than sorry given how unclear some other things still are. (See: Bullrush not going off Fury, us realizing only recently that Shieldrender & Bow Gun work, etc.)



Quote from: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm
Magic ruin is fine how it is, its single target, takes off half their max MP instantly but has a chance to miss. It doesn't see any use because Bizen bolt, JP concerns, and the fact that Quickening/Steal Heart/Bad Luck are so much better options.


Indeed. Magic Ruin could probably stand to see its JP reduced to 150 JP though, even with Concentrate. I'm tempted to say it could see it reduced to 100, but that both steps on mages and Mind Ruin, so....

Quote from: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm
Spell Absorb is Pretty Weak vs most targets but can restore the users MP in addition to Draining it from the target. It sees little use because most view it as a MP healing move inferior to chakara (even on an oracle)  or Ether because of needing a high MP high faith enemy and it having its own MP cost so its unusable as a Bizen bolt counter.   I think this spell shoud cost 0 making it a viable method of giving the caster additional MP even in the most dire of situations.


Hmmm...making Spell Absorb use no MP would probably help it.

*might steal that for one of his own patches*

The thing is, though, that in addition to it actually costing MP, Spell Absorb has the problem of being on the one mage class that literally has no damage options. (Well, aside from Life Drain, which also saw very little use for some reason even before the Undead started running amok.) For some reason, the few times I've used Spell Absorb in ARENA myself, it seemed like the A.I. preferred it to actually using status on some units that it can status, even with serious things. I mean, it's not enough to dissuade the A.I. from using Petrify or anything, but it seemed like it was taking precedent over at least Beguile, if not Paralyze, and both of those statuses are usually pretty damn high up there.

Of course, my memory could be flawed.

Regardless, that would maybe make it see some use, especially with Oracle getting Balance. I'm just not sure if it's necessary...or even all that wise with Pilgrimage around now.

Shrug.

Still, it's something.

Quote from: Malroth on July 19, 2013, 10:55:44 pm
Bizen Bolt is VASTLY overpowered compared to other MP depleting strategies 10xMA stacking magic attack up is almost concidered too overpowered for HP damage moves and since MP totals are lower almost nothing will have MP after even a Mediocre Draw out user uses it.  5 or 6xMA  is a much better starting point letting an average draw out user deplete the reserves of Support melee but take work to drain a dedicated caster dry.


What Dokurider said is kinda why it "has" to be that way, though. The A.I. tends to be...capricious about MP damage. It seems like it will use if it can't do anything else in range, which means that it's not entirely like Dokurider says. Additionally, like Otabo pointed out, the A.I. will just sometime use MP damage even if they can do something else in range for some reason, which also undermines Dokurider's point a bit.

That said, Dokurider is overall correct in saying that, unfortunately, the A.I. will generally not use Bizen Boat or MP damage in general unless it assuredly interrupts something. Witch Hunt is the exception here, probably because of its range (read: because it hits the whole map).

So, while Bizen Boat probably should be decreased a bit in terms of the MP damage it can do on top of giving it M-EV, we probably couldn't get away with decreasing it all the way to MA*5 if want the A.I. to actually use it. This especially if we're keeping Bizen Boat on Mage Masher and with the MP increases half of Clothes are getting.



Quote from: Otabo on July 20, 2013, 09:23:26 pm
Yeah it is, actually. Sure, the AI typically uses it as a disrupt ability, but it also does use it even when the enemy mage isn't casting anything at the time. I see what you're saying, but the problem with BB is not only that it's AoE, but the thing is both instant AND unevadable. That alone makes it way too good. Not to mention it also doesn't give a care about fury or faith, has no cost whatsoever, and can potentially hit an entire team, unlike most interception abilities which either require charging, are subject to evasion, are subject to faith, is single target, isn't 100% guaranteed to hit anyway (i.e. Insult, Mimic Daravon), can be resisted/avoided/protected against by various equipment in some way or another, or any combination of the above. Add to the fact that the skill is present on a class that has naturally good MA values and can potentially be MA stacked (not that people MA stack just to get more MP damage from BB mind you, I mainly say that for those untis that have stuff like Chiri, Koutetsu and what not, and just happen to have Bizen Boat in their arsenal), and it get quite stupid to deal with. And what's worse is that Bizen Boat can screw over, not just mages, but any unit that has to rely on MP to use their skills to be worth anything. Sometimes, this can be an entire team.


I'd bolded everything that's my real problem with Bizen Boat. The unavoidable AoE wouldn't even be an issue given Witch Hunt does the, but it's the fact that it does SO much damage instantly in an AoE and is capable of outright wiping out MP pools. It's really not uncommon, given how the A.I. bunches up, for at least half of the team to lose all their MP to one Bizen Boat. This especially since Bizen Boat, on top of being a class with naturally above average MA, is also in the same skill-set as what is currently the only reliable and instant Haste adding ability.

So getting mid-charged by Bizen Boat is almost inevitable on top of unlike with Witch Hunt or Spell Absorb. (Magic Ruin would likely similarly be almost inevitable as a mid-charge due to Thief speed...if it had actually been used it more than like half a dozen times ever.)



Quote from: Avalanche on July 21, 2013, 03:16:54 am
i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action. But it is used very rarely by the ai. I think the AI uses it ifff: Enemy unit is charging and can be stoped by BB and there is no way to kill that unit or to put it into critical. So BB is an huge investment but very unreliable, So one cant integrate it into a strategy. It is more of a left-over-Jp spell.


These things are rather contrary, especially since it's not like it's that much of a hardship to give a female Samurai lots of MA. Bizen Boat may not exactly be a priority on any teams but Dokurider's "Mana Missile Matrix" team, but it's constant threat and has ability to give any Mage within spell range (since, even with dinky Samurai movement, it effectively has 5 range...the range of most spells) the finger, instantly neutering--well, spaying since they tend to be female--them.

As an afterthought.



Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 07:19:05 am
Yeah, most of those interruption statuses are somehow blockable in a way or two. So would Bizen Boat be balanced if it was counterable somehow? What if we made it so MP Restore and Absorb MP triggered on MP damage?


Absorb MP triggering off MP damage would be a good step towards making Bizen Boat less ridiculous given that Absorb MP already triggers off all the other MP damage abilities. After all, Spell Absorb, Magic Ruin and Witch Hunt all use MP.

MP Restore trigger off MP damage though? Please, no. It's already arguably a bit much that it triggers off any HP damage, though it's properly costed and at least (very) worth using now. Letting it trigger off MP damage too would just obviate MP damage.



So...with all that said, I'll need to actually think more about this personally, especially with all that's probably happening to Dance & Sing/Song between what Dokurider and I were discussing earlier.

I'll try and think about that by tomorrow when I go over...probably Poles and Spears. Shrug.

P.S. I'll respond to Andante49 and Dokurider('s other posts) some time later tonight, probably, after everyone's eyes have been finished glazing over because of this and after I've bothered FFMaster.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 21, 2013, 08:01:09 pm
2
. Vector Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 8; Special: Heals on Hit; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (So...I'll let that triple reference sink in for a bit.

...Done? Anyone not get the Star Ocean 2 one?

Anyway, despite the change to P Bag, I still say that we could use another healing weapon that's capable of, you know, actually healing for a significant if only moderate amount. The change to P Bag doesn't exactly do that unless, maybe, you give it to a (male) Samurai...which is kinda undermined in that they get access to Two-Handed Murasame, which is already the strongest healing weapon in ARENA, and Light Robe. Whatever buffs probably given to Healing Staff will also not help P Bag as a healing item comparatively; let's please leave talking about Staves for the end of weapons though given that's easily the most contentious weapon category. P Bag healing on hit just means the A.I. won't be stupid about attacking with a Bag for once in most instances.

Meanwhile, we had no additional healing weapons despite at least one much needed nerf to Auto Potion upcoming. We also still had no healing weapons that could be used from range. And while P Bag actually fulfills the bit about encouraging Mediators to use Praise and Solution instead of idiotically attacking with it, putting healing on a Gun would help Mediators (and Archers and even Chemists) actually be capable of, you know, healing people.

So I came up with this thing that doubles even Chemist healing range, makes it so that Chemists don't necessarily have to use Potions and can undo the damage of the oft-obnoxious Comet, which is only going to get more obnoxious with Auto Potion being weakened. It would also help against the horde of Cursed Ring users; the last part may be hampered by Projectile Guard--it all depends on if that will actually stop a healing weapon. [Did/does Blade Grasp block Healing Staff? If not, then this should get around Projectile Guard when not being used for Hawk's Eye or Breaks or whatever that's actually offensive to even non-Undead.]

All this while at the same time being unlikely to become obnoxious itself. I was originally going to make it only 9 WP to "replace" Auto Potion in a way without stepping on the new Mythril Gun's toes, but then I figured that would make Vector Gun too weak. As it is now, even with 10 WP, it won't really ever out-heal X-Potion, much less Hi-Potion on units with HP higher than 300 HP. At least, it won't do this unless you basically go out of your way to give the user max Fury and either Best compat. or, amusingly, Warpath, which is in itself rather encouraging. If anything, it might need a slight increase to 11 WP, but I'm unsure.

Presently, I'm way more unsure about its range than its WP as Range: 8 might be a tad obnoxious. If no one really complained about that for Romanda Gun, however, I don't see why it would suddenly be a problem for a healing weapon. This especially when every damage-oriented unit can rather easily outdo 100 damage on all but the most defensive of units. [And it's not like 40/40 units are going to be that appealing anymore between the Spellguns' changes and Death's buff.])


So...yeah. Yay? Nay? Maybay?


When I heard "Vector Gun" I was thinking Vector The Crocodile from Sonic The Hedgehog.


Combining two ideas at once here...
Quote from: Barren on January 25, 2013, 02:01:41 pm
Maybe we can do a gun that inflicts faith by chance like Tetragrammation.

If you all know the anime Chrono Crusade, its a gun with high power against demons with low backlash developed by "Elder" Hamilton for the final confrontation against Aion, is given to Rosette by the Father Remington and later used by Chrono.

That can replace the mythril gun I think. It doesn't need 2 MA really


Quote from: Vector Gun: 10 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 8; Special: Heals on Hit; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (So...I'll let that triple reference sink in for a bit.

I do think that we need a gun that has 8 range.  Mythril gun is terrible and I really can't thing of any context where it's good.  Now what about this idea.  8 Range Healing Gun called Tetragrammation?  It's still thematic "sort of" by healing.  Would a healing gun like this be subject to evasion via Projectile Guard? 

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 10:49:59 pm
(And now that I'm back and have bugged FFMaster....)

...I can honestly say that Vector the Sonic character didn't even occur to me, which is especially odd given that I was thinking about more esoteric Sonic characters just yesterday. It's sort of "ironic" even given the ones I was thinking are even more obscure them him, a.k.a. Bean the Bird and Bark the Polar Bear. But, yeah, he's not what's being referenced.

As for names, I guess I wouldn't be...against calling "Tetragrammation" per se; I would just prefer that it stay "Vector Gun" since that's not nearly as reference heavy. I mean, even without getting the Star Ocean 2 reference, it's pretty clear that it's referring to two of definitions for the word "Vector".

Of course, I'm not sure how popular Chrono Crusade even is and know next to nothing about outside of having the ending (willingly) spoiled for me via TVTropes, so either of those factors don't help. So...yeah. I'd rather it stay "Vector Gun" personally, but I'm going to throw a bitch-fit or anything if people really want to call it "Tetragrammation", even as nit-picky as I can be about the names of things.

This is, of course, provided they even like the idea at all.

As for the second one, it might be, unfortunately. We have to check, though I could probably test it really easily tonight...if I had the drive to actually do anything beyond slowly, insidiously destroy people's eyesight.


Quote from: Andante49 on July 21, 2013, 04:33:34 pm
In a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?


Yeah, it did. That isn't surprising given ideas fall by the wayside all the time in this thread. That's why I'm being extra anal-retentive in trying to order things for once.

At this point, it seems unlikely to happen, especially since people can't even agree about the regular, HP-affecting Poison & Regen still.

That said, we might as well discuss it again...when we get around to talking about Status, which will probably be the last thing that I personally discuss just because I want to do all of them at once.

Feel free to discuss it now if you want though. As control-freakish as I can be, I'm not going to stop people from talking about what they want.


Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
I don't agree that a close range, Faith Spell proc is truly necessary. *Balmung stuff snipped*


Oh, I agree that the Faith-based part isn't "truly necessary". Not even another Dark type weapon is "truly necessary", really, which is more the point of Balmung than anything. I also agree that the average melee fighter is unlikely to up his Faith just to use Balmung, especially if he's not a team where a teammate has Raise (2) or Fairy.

That said, it wasn't meant for the "average melee fighter", which is why I said it was relatively high-risk, high-reward. There's nothing stopping you from using it with 40 Faith or alongside, say, Gokuu Rod or Flash Hat. It's just not going to be as useful for you if you do, which I think is incentive enough since quite a few sword users that otherwise can focus on melee also have above average MA. 

What would you propose we actually do with it then though?

Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
I was actually more or less agreeing with you in a twisted way by demonstrating just how redundant C Bag has become. *C Bag and Kiyomori stuff snipped*


Oh, I understand the hesitancy too. It probably comes off as me not understanding or not caring about given how...pushy and dismissive I can get about things, but I wasn't entirely discounting people's opinions there. Admittedly, I was initially going to just suggest that no katana have any direct MA-boosting quality, but then rather quickly realized that it was a tad draconian. That's why the +1 MA was initially thrown on my proposal for an increased Asura Knife before Gaignun pointed out my miscalculation.

At present, I'm still up for changing Kiyomori entirely, obviously, if only to help out Muramasa the katana and Two Swords being used on Samurai. I'm also for Bizen Boat getting +1 MA to make it more attractive than it currently is.

I just want katana other than the current Kiyomori to actually be used more than once a blue moon if we went through the trouble of bothering to actually improve them. Right now, Kiyomori dominates the class both because it's braindead and because male Samurai are rather rare.

As for Thief and Rune Blade, I don't think that really proves anything except that either the problem might really be with Rune Blade (& Lionheart) or that Thief has access to Swords in the first place (or that Thief's PA might be slightly too high, like Ninja's).

Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
Even in this Wall of Silence we currently have going on, Silence still has applications. *Bizen Boat the katana and Talk Skill...talk snipped*


Again, I'm not saying that Bizen Boat the katana, even with the (Demon) Wall of Silence we have now is bad weapon. Again, Bizen Boat isn't Iron Fan. I'm just saying it's outclassed, will be getting even more outclassed if we're improving Silencer, Gastraphetes, Nameless Dance & even some of the other katana and it also suffers from a bit of a Catch-22. After all, looking at the power Samurai are capable of above, you think people would be using Attack UP on them more. Even if they were, though, they'd currently be using Kiyomori (still) as that has more power than Bizen Boat as does Chirijiraden (and, getting into the elemental swords, so do Asura Knife, Ko(u)tetsu Knife & Kikuichimo(n)ji).

The thing is, though, that Bizen Boat paradoxically doesn't want much more power any, which I realized from the get-go despite my initial ill-conceived buff. After all, striking a mage with that much power is likely to outright kill them rather than "just" Silence them.

All I was saying is that Silence protection use is already waning and people tend to, as you and I both pointed out, forego it on Mediators entirely already. And yet Bizen Boat use hasn't exactly risen up in use even though Silencer currently isn't going to give it any competition. So basically my reply to Gaignun and then CT5Holy (and now you) was less "Bizen Boat is bad" and far more "Bizen Boat is relatively unimpressive and I'll remain skeptical that it sees any real increase in use even if we're making Silence's CT finite".

Quote from: Dokurider on July 21, 2013, 06:56:25 pm
I suppose it did. I think it's because no one's really sure if it's better to make MP more available to everyone. While I think it would be a powerful benefit to Fighter types with 24 MP, it could be a problem on Mages, because now they don't need to invest into MP gaining skills so strongly anymore, meaning stronger mages. If MP Regen was to be introduced, I would propose that it heals a flat 4 MP/turn so it helps Fighter types while not helping Mage types (that much). MP Poison, however, will still work on a %MP rate.


I'd support both of those things, though again, I'd personally prefer to talk about statuses at the end of everything.


Anyway, how do you feel about the other stuff, Dokurider? At present, Gaignun's the only person who has directly commented on anything.

Keanu EDIT: Whoa. Didn't realize how horribly I had fucked up that last couple of quotes or how trying to account for Kotetsu Knife's possible typo had accidentally underlined things.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
Holy spoilers, Batman.

Quote from: Andante49 on July 21, 2013, 04:33:34 pm
In a related note, did the MP poison/regen idea fall by the wayside?


Implementing MP poison/regen requires ASM hacking.  As none of us here except for FFMaster actively hacks FFTA's assembly code (to the best of my knowledge), we can't push for these status effects too hard.

Quote from: Avalanche on July 21, 2013, 03:16:54 am
i dont think Bizen Boeat is a huge Probleme, sure it can win a Match with a singular action. But it is used very rarely by the ai. I think the AI uses it ifff: Enemy unit is charging and can be stoped by BB and there is no way to kill that unit or to put it into critical. So BB is an huge investment but very unreliable, So one cant integrate it into a strategy. It is more of a left-over-Jp spell.


I agree about its rare use.  I also agree with Otabo about it being imbalanced by the numbers.  Sinkhole, Magic Ruin, and so forth don't blow up an enemy's entire MP pool like Bizen Boat does.

Make Bizen Boat deal light, non-elemental HP damage with a 100% chance to cancel charging & performing.  There.  It fulfills its original purpose without the nuclear fallout.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
2. Orichalcum: 11 WP; 15% W-EV; +1 Move; +1 MA; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (The weapon drop here is in red because, personally, I really don't think Orichalcum needs to drop down too Katar, yes. Orichalcum, possibly, but it seems unlikely given it doesn't boost itself like Katar does, especially when Two Handed. Shrug.)


Orichalcum needs a nerf, or Orichalcum will become the new Katar, only with 1/2 fewer XA.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
Mage Masher: ...should this go "back" to 50% Silence? Stay with 50% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Bizen Boat? Go to 100% Silence? Get other changes?

...Or should it just die?


If it should just die, then just leave it.  Its existence is not doing any harm.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
Additionally, Mage Masher is already a mediocre-at-best weapon that is only going to get worse between the aforementioned changes to the Silence-inducing weapons and the much needed buff Spell Edge is getting. Hell, even without buffing Bizen Boat the katana (even though I still think it deserves at least slight buff), Bizen Boat is outright a better weapon than Mage Masher between the katana doing more damage and having a 100% proc.


By the numbers, you're right: Bizen Boat is better than Mage Masher.  Katana are superior to many things in general.  However, katana are accessible by only Paladins and Samurai (i.e. 3 Move 8 SP classes), so they're harder to make the most of.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
[Concerning Mythril and Ultimus Bows] The W-EV is in red because it's listed as 0% in Gaignun's thread and I'm assuming it's just a typo. Not that I would mind it going to 0% W-EV from 10% W-EV....)


It was a typo.  Thanks for catching it.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pm
4. Stone Gun: ... This gets an implicit buff from the spellguns being nerfed, which once again makes it the strongest gun overall as it should given its literally initial drawback.


Force-Two Hands makes it a straight nerf.  If Stone Gun gets an implicit buff, we failed.

Quote from: The Damned on July 21, 2013, 07:38:41 pmGuns


I give a firm "no" toward any gun getting more than 6 range unless it's as weak as the current Mythril Gun.  We're trying to encourage the use of crossbows, after all.

Vector Gun is a Star Ocean 2 reference?  Wouldn't it be Vectra Gun, or (more accurately) Kaleidoscope?  Regardless, I am fine with a (maximum 6 range) healing gun.  However, straight healing is too similar to potions.  Why don't we follow Barren's suggestion and make it inflict Faith as well?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Avalanche on July 22, 2013, 12:58:58 pm
I dont know it was discusses but i think masamune is stil to strong. What was wrong with it adding Haste OR Regen? Some Ai issues i guess. Otherwise make it add Regen and increase its Aoe

Also:
I thinnk shell and protect could need some buff.  Like make it heal a little Hp. Because the Ai uses it only when some HP is needed
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 22, 2013, 02:05:31 pm
Avalanche: Masamune has been the two options you suggested in the past. No one used it. Only Regen was too weak, Haste or Regen was unreliable (and thus weak). I think Masamune is in a good spot currently. It takes several turns to buff everyone (assuming only one Masamune user), Kibaku Fuda, a new skill, cancels Haste and Regen, Slow 2 will still be good, etc.

Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 22, 2013, 09:37:44 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on July 22, 2013, 02:05:31 pm
Avalanche: Masamune has been the two options you suggested in the past. No one used it. Only Regen was too weak, Haste or Regen was unreliable (and thus weak). I think Masamune is in a good spot currently. It takes several turns to buff everyone (assuming only one Masamune user), Kibaku Fuda, a new skill, cancels Haste and Regen, Slow 2 will still be good, etc.

Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).

That's actually a good point.  Is Stone Gun really tearing up the charts right now so much so that it needs a nerf?  I hadn't really thought about it at all because I wouldn't touch Stone Gun with a 10 Foot Clown Pole.  Why are we nerfing things that might be UNDERPOWERED?

Both Stone Gun using teams in the tourney are already in the loser's bracket.  Granted one of them got there by battling it out against Barren in an epic round three.  But is there any actual results based reason for Stone Gun getting nerfed? 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 10:37:20 pm
Quote from: reinoe on July 22, 2013, 09:37:44 pmBut is there any actual results based reason for Stone Gun getting nerfed? 


Yes.  Patch 1.37.  They were one of the only weapons Archers used, if I recall correctly.

In Patch 1.38, 22 archers are in S2, and only 1 is using a crossbow that won't get modified.  Meanwhile, 15 are using guns.  Once spellguns are nerfed, The Damned and I expect that many of their users will migrate back to Stone Gun.  This nerf is to make them consider moving to crossbows as well.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 22, 2013, 02:05:31 pm
Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).


That damage has 100% accuracy and 6 range, though.  It also doesn't require any PA stacking, so you have greater freedom when choosing armor and accessories.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 23, 2013, 02:30:30 am
(Oh, good. Gaignun addressed the Stone Gun thing more concisely than I would have had I actually answered it first.)

Yeah, Stone Gun should be fine without a shield given it essentially inherently comes with Concentrate like all guns (and Hidden Knife). Additionally, it is only blocked by Projectile Guard, which also blocks the other things it and other guns are competing with (read: utterly dominating) in terms of use, the majority of which don't get the luxury of being able to equip Shields even if they do have Concentrate.

(Unlike, say, Hidden Knife which is as busted as it is because it's Two Sword capable and there's no way to block it at all. That on top of coming with +1 Sp and being innately available to the two fastest classes, one of which comes with Two Swords innate.)

If Stone Gun ends up being nerfed too much, then we'll just give it 13 WP again I guess rather than give it Shields back. As it is now, though, it's probably fine, especially now that its damage won't basically be obviated by Spellgun (even without Strengthen) versus all types of units.

Anyway, I think I've come up with a solution for all the MP damage...save for Bizen Boat, which I still need to think more about. I will, however, not be talking about Poles and Spears tonight because I still have no idea what the hell FFMaster is doing with Pole's formulas and Holy Spear/Lance('s proc).

I should have bugged him about it yesterday (read: Sunday).

Instead, we'll talk about Books, Harps & Cloths, partly just to get the rest of the esoteric weapons out of the way with Flails "done", partly because they're the smallest category after said Flails and partly because they should be talked about together anyway.

...Not that anyone has said yet commented about Equip Light Blade or other classes getting Flails:



BOOKS/TOMES/DICTIONARIES

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. Necronomicon: This is easily the Book that's the most stable and most popular of them, to be expected. As such, it staying as it is should be fine.


2. Monster Dict: This could...probably use a better proc or, at least, have its current proc more likely to activate but it's otherwise fine.


3. Papyrus Plate: This is fine. Oddly has seen less and less use over time compared to the other books, though that's probably at least partly due to current Spellguns' bullshit. With those going to the Nether side, it may raise in use again. Regardless, it's otherwise fine. Probably.


4. Madlemgen: This is fine at present. It, however, needs a different proc if it and RLamia Harp both end up on Equip Magegear. More on that in a bit though.


Really not much to say here, which shows just how lazy I am being with this switch.



HARPS/INSTRUMENTS

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. RLamia Harp: Well, beyond still needing a name fix (to prevent further slippage of my already waning sanity), this is...mostly fine. The only real issue that comes up is the fact that it and Madlemgen have the exact same proc. This would be more or less fine...if Books and Harps weren't likely going to both be on Equip Magegear. Granted, they have different formulas, but having the same range and everything just means that, more or less, this will end up overshadowing Madlemgen on Equip Magegear 9 times out of 10 since it's way easier to power up.

Too bad the only proc change I can think of would be to give one of them Sleep and too bad I can neither decide on which one would get that nor if it should be straight Sleep status or a casting of the spell.


2. Fairy Harp: This...may be fine. It may also be slightly overpowered. It's difficult to tell given how little use Harps have seen as a whole (due to their perfectly fine exclusivity, lack of Equip X aside). The non-Bloody Strings Harps have seen even less use, so...yeah.


CURRENTLY CHANGING
Bloody Strings: 10 WP; 5% W-EV; Range: 3; Special: Absorb HP (Undead Reversal); Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No. (This is getting a much needed nerf that will help the other Harps actually be able to compete against it. It probably still needs to drop to 9 WP, if not 8 WP, but I'm tired of arguing that.)


Other than that, we still need to confirm/reaffirm whether or not this is actually getting on Equip Magegear and, like Equip Light Blades & Flails, decide if adding Harps to Equip Magegear should increase its JP cost.

So far, we've been especially wish-washy about the former.



CLOTHS/DEADLY FABRICS/GYPSY MOTHS

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (BECAUSE IT'S ACTUALLY FINE)
Ryozan Silk: When we discussed it months ago, this was the only Cloth that everyone agreed was fine of the three currently "meh" articles of weaponry.

We could maybe stand to up its evasion to 15% though, given it is a "rare" weapon after all (and especially if we're giving Lionheart +10% W-EV).


CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING (BECAUSE NO ONE CAN AGREE ON IF THEY SHOULD CHANGE AND, IF SO, WHAT TO CHANGE THEM TO)
1. Persia: This is basically inferior to Ryozan Silk, Cherche, Iron Will and, with their upcoming improvements, Save the Queen & Wall. It's just that no one could agree what the hell to do before everyone (else) forgot.


2. Cashmere: This is basically inferior to Ryozan Silk, Setiemson, Iron Will and, with their upcoming improvements, Ragnarok & Wall. It's just that no one could agree what the hell to do before everyone (else) forgot.


I've been mulling ideas over in my head for the past four hours or so only and I haven't gotten much, but here's what I have at present...that I just decided on right now:


Persia: 8 WP; 45% W-EV; Range: 2; Sp +1; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No.

Cashmere: 10 WP; 30% W-EV; Range: 2; Initial: Float, Reraise; Two Hands: No; Two Swords: No.


So...Cashmere becomes "Diamond Helm: The Weapon", even despite that helm already having a few problems in seeing use, and Persia becomes the "I Ran So Far Away & You Can't Touch This" Cloth...without that pesky extra movement. Maybe.

The WP on them was initially switched, but I figured that power and evasiveness should be inversely proportional given Dancer's initial PA even if that evasiveness is moot while Dancing (unfortunately), so it is what is now.

Speaking of evasiveness, the reason that Persia doesn't have an outright 50% W-EV like I think someone suggested a while ago when this was initially discussed is because Defending status still outright doubles evasion. So users of this and Defend or Nurse or Caution would be absolutely stupid if it did that. As it is, they will still be very damn annoying, but not all that much more annoying than Main Gauche, which will still allow for a Shield--that's why Persia got Forced Two Hands too (since Iran's a huge...tract of land).

Dancing EDIT: Oh, and before I forget again, much like Harps, we need to confirm/reaffirm whether this is becoming a part of Equip Polearms and, if so, whether that should increase Equip Polearm's JP cost.



Okay, so something dawned on me while on my walk earlier, which goes to show how slow I am since I was the one who mentioned it even if Dokurider brought it up. Malroth's suggestion about Spell Absorb also helped.

All the MP-damaging abilities, except the dreaded Bizen Boat, trigger Absorb MP already since they use MP. This despite it being paradoxical and self-defeating to do so.

So...why not buff Magic Ruin, Spell Absorb and Witch Hunt, at least in part, by making it so they cost no MP?

Now, hear me out please. These would not be the only changes to the above three abilities and Bizen Boat still needs to change. It's just that reducing these to 0 MP seems like it would help them actually see use a lot more, so long as we adjusted them accordingly. After all, it's not like Throw Stone uses up any MP.

(And even though I'll reply to it later, I'll just say that, at present, please know I can't accept your current proposal for Bizen Boat the ability, Gaignun. I'll explain why in my next post.)

Anyway with that said, here are the other proposals I'll offer for Magic Ruin, Spell Absorb and Witch Hunt:


1. Witch Hunt: This "should" get changed to a 100% MP Drain ability with a formula of at least 8 + PA to that it drains at least 10 MP even with Summoner and Wizard's crap PA. That way, even Summoners can use it refill their mana for one big spell (at a time) provided the other team still has three or four people up. Additionally, with it no longer costing MP nor destroying MP so rapidly, it neither counters itself by triggering MP Absorb nor fucks over any class instantly that doesn't already have a shit load of MP. Its CT, much like Angel Song, could probably stand to be increased slightly to 5 given it will still deplete and MP supply rather quickly on lower end targets.

Of course, with it losing so much power, despite it not running itself into uselessness as fdc noted in the conservation with Dokurider that Dokurider posted, mana "denial" strategies take a bit of a hit as a trade-off. Or, at least, it may seem that way initially. With Spell Edge getting buffed, Monster Dict being already usable (and probably needing a slightly better proc percentage), Mage Masher maybe staying around and the other MP-damaging abilities being made useful as well, one will just have to use more than one technique for mana denial. Boo hoo.

The biggest potential problem, to me, is how the A.I. would use it. Though, for the most part, even it "only" being used as an alternative to Move-MP Up or Absorb MP or MP Restore on female units is already a big potential improvement.

(Oh, and, as with what I was talking about before with regards abilities that hit all the map, I still say this shouldn't be allowed to be Mimicked anymore.)


2. Spell Absorb: This can probably go to 0 MP like how Malroth proposed even with my hesitance about Pilgrimage; it's still susceptible to Silence, after all, and likely being on squishy mages. May want to perhaps drop the range and slightly drop the accuracy as recompense just so that Pilgrimage doesn't get too obnoxious with this though.

Hell, maybe even drop the drained percentage to 25% from 33% since it's not exactly huge shift on lower ends and it would be way more fair on the higher MP ends.

Dancing EDIT: Alternately, having thought about this on my walk, we could just make Spell Absorb not go off Faith, essentially making it further the MA opposite of Magic Ruin. That would nip the Pilgrimage thing in the ass preemptively at least while still encouraging use of Pilgrimage.


3. Magic Ruin: This is the most difficult to one to decide after the 0 MP thing, even with having to worry about Pilgrimage above. That's because Thieves are so damn fast, can move pretty damn far and this is likely to mid-charge Mages for a ridiculous amount even before Concentrate working on it.

Still, my initial suggestion of reducing this to range 2 wouldn't have changed much. So, I think, if we reduce Spell Absorb above to 25%, then this can go to 33%, but also drop to at most 150 JP and possibly become slightly more accurate while maintaining Range 3.


It's difficult to tell with Spell Absorb & Magic Ruin given how much percentages vary, even in large amounts, when it comes to MP. After all, 25% HP damage is always going to be decent damage while 25% MP can either be complete crap, if targeting, say, a (current) Thief, or a huge chunk if targeting, say, a (current) Summoner.

Shrug. I just think these things would probably help in the long run, especially the change to Witch Hunt.



And now I must go for another walk without proofreading before it gets too damn dark for my lazy ass to go out again.

I'll reply to other things, i.e. Gaignun's response and CT5Holy's question, some time later.

Dancing EDIT: Ugh. All seen typos fixed, including the stupid omission of Equip Polearms under Cloths.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
(Double ugh. I forgot to note that I also added like five paragraphs in the above edit as well as provided an alternative change to Spell Absorb.

I'm not going to back to "fix" that, at least not until someone actually comments on Harps or Books or Cloths or the MP damage stuff.)

Guess I'll just have to double post and shit. How surprising.

Tonight/today I guess I'll talk about Knight Swords and Axes just to both get them out of the way and to get one of the most popular classes, Paladin, out of the way weapon-wise. It helps that, Spears aside, I got all the other "exclusive" weapon types--Longbows, Harps & Cloths--besides Knight Swords out of the way already.

It also helps that, for the most part, everything in both of these is already decided. Thus you will all be spared from my (abortive) attempts at "creativity" for a night.


KNIGHT('S) SWORDS

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
Chaos Blade: This seems to be doing perfectly well finally and there's no point in changing it for better or, given it still being stronger than all the other swords, for worse. After all, if nothing else, it's basically Ahong's pet at this point, so putting it (read: bringing it) down would be unnecessarily cruel. (Unless it turns out to have rabies at a later date, which case we'll put it down with cruel necessity and just tell him it died in its sleep.)


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Defender: 16 WP; 40% W-EV; Range: 1; Immune: Don't Act; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (I still think the increase to 16 WP might be a bit much, if only given the immunity and all that evasion. The other Knight Swords do have arguably better benefits than it still though, so....)


2. Save the Queen: 15 WP; 10 W-EV; Range: 1; Always: Protect; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (This may actually see some use again now after being beaten up by Cherche for a while, especially in the instances of Chaos Blade's increased use and the buff to Dispel and, possibly, Gold Staff & Masamune the Katana.)


3. Excalibur: 14 WP; 20% W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Holy, Strengthen: Holy; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (For the record, I am still extremely against buffing this, especially since I don't think Gaignun ever explained why exactly he thought this actually needed buffing even in the case of the other buffs. As it is now, Excalibur is already the second strongest Knight Sword despite "only" having 13 WP due to Self-Strengthening. It is also the only Knight Sword that can be used with Absorb strategies at all and thus the only one that can be used with Grand Cross without nuking the self; the only Knight Sword to have any where near the luxury, at least with Concentrate, is Save the Queen due to Protect and that will have less power than Excalibur already due to the WP drop.

Do we really to make Excalibur's already great Crosses even better and equivalent to those Chaos Blade's, only with absorb?)


4. Ragnarok:  15 WP; 10 W-EV; Range: 1; Always: Shell; Two Hands: Forced; Two Swords: No. (This may actually see some use again now after being beaten up by Setiemson for a while, especially in the instances of Chaos Blade's increased use and the buff to Dispel and, possibly, Gold Staff & Masamune the Katana.)


Outside of Excalibur still being disputed (and I still honestly don't understand why anyone would think it needs anymore buffs), these are decided unless, I guess, someone wants to object to Defender and didn't.




AXES

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
Giant Axe: I've always said that this axe was better than most people seemed to think it was, even having to compete with the stupidity of the current Battle Axe. With the changes to at least Monk and said Battle Axe, it's only going to get better. So it staying as it is now is fine.


CURRENTLY CHANGING
1. Battle Axe: 9 WP; 30% W-EV; Range: 1; 33% Decapitate (Damage: 50% of Target's Max HP; Hit: 100%); Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: No. (This the change to Decapitate--I still say we call it "Maim" now--was listed as a blue, "neutral" change in Gaignun's list. I disagree. It was a straight, necessary nerf to its current stupidity even if, yes, it will still be more than usable and very dangerous. It just won't be incredibly fucking lazy and braindead should it hit. Otherwise, the changes here are fine and I have no further comments.)

2. Slasher: 12 WP; 25% W-EV; Range: 1; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes. (Despite being the one to push this change, into the realm of seriousness at least, I'm still slightly worried that this will overshadow--over-slash?--Parry Edge and Platinum Sword despite there being less access to it than those two. Then again, it's not Slasher's fault those things are (still) of dubious quality.



Of weapons, that only leaves Ninjato/Ninja Swords/Ninja Blades/Ninja Turtles, Rods, Staves and Bags, not counting the current limbo that Spears and Poles are in until FFMaster tells us what's going on.

Considering how dead tired I'll probably be tomorrow (read: Wednesday), I'll probably just only do Bags unless I can really think of something with regards to Shields (since those are handheld as well, even if they're not weapons).


Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
Holy spoilers, Batman.


Thanks for reminds me that I punished myself by rewatching Batman & Robin two Sundays ago.


Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
Make Bizen Boat deal light, non-elemental HP damage with a 100% chance to cancel charging & performing.  There.  It fulfills its original purpose without the nuclear fallout.


Please no. If anything, that will only make Bizen Boat worse. While it will no longer be outright nuking MP pools, it will instead be putting mages into (slowly) dying loops of attempting to cast things, only to get them repeatedly canceled while taking "light" damage.

This doesn't seem like a big deal perhaps given that it's what Throw Stone already does...except that Throw Stone doesn't do it in an AoE. Additionally, having more than one thing that cancels Charging & Performing just seems...bad. That's part of what's wrong with Refute right now and that's not even AoE either.

(I'll fully admit that part of the reason I think this way is because I just don't like Charging & Performing-cancelling abilities in most instances.)

There has to be something else can do before we resort to that.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
Orichalcum needs a nerf, or Orichalcum will become the new Katar, only with 1/2 fewer XA.


Okay. I've admitted it probably does after running that Samurai vs. Thief scenario "for" CT5Holy.

That's not the only thing "wrong" with Orichalcum though. There are at least three other factors:


1. If we give Orichalcum the same WP as Katar (and probably as Air Knife), then it's Orichalcum is just going to fall into disuse again as +1 MA really isn't all that useful for Knife users, especially compared to +1 PA.

2. In addition to the above, Main Gauche, which for some reason can be Two Handed as well, is already perilously close to Orichalcum as it is. That will likely overtake using Orichalcum anymore.

3. Even if we do need to nerf the Two Handed Knives powers, we should honestly consider also at least slightly lowering the PA for (male) Thieves and (male) Ninjas, especially with all the buffs the latter is getting.


Regardless, it's not as simple as just dropping Orichalcum to 11 WP if want the thing to actually see use.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
If it should just die, then just leave it.  Its existence is not doing any harm.


That's just the thing though. I'm not sure if it should die.

Which is kinda what I was asking.

We need to decide what to do with it whether it lives or dies though, regardless of whether it changes or not. We really do.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
It was a typo.  Thanks for catching it.


Okay. Good to know. Not a problem or anything.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
Force-Two Hands makes it a straight nerf.  If Stone Gun gets an implicit buff, we failed.


Then we "failed" because Stone Gun is getting an implicit buff simply because Spellguns will no longer be so goddamn stupid against everything save for units with outright Innocent that Stone Gun will actually have a place again. Yes, Stone Gun is overall getting nerfed for the sake of Crossbows and Longbows (and the lesser guns) as it should and, yes, Stone Gun will do less damage on 40 Brave units than the new Spellguns will.

That doesn't also mean it isn't getting a bit of a buff of sorts simply because changes don't happen in a void.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
I give a firm "no" toward any gun getting more than 6 range unless it's as weak as the current Mythril Gun.  We're trying to encourage the use of crossbows, after all.


Ha! You activated my trap card!

I didn't want it to have Range 8 either. I just put that there because I expected people might kvetch if there suddenly wasn't a Range 8 gun, regardless of what it actually did.

I'm more than fine with "lowering" it to Range 6 since that's where I wanted it anyway.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
Vector Gun is a Star Ocean 2 reference?  Wouldn't it be Vectra Gun, or (more accurately) Kaleidoscope?


...Fuck. You're right. That's what I get for not actually checking things and trying to go off my shitty memory. 

Quote from: Gaignun on July 22, 2013, 09:30:46 am
Regardless, I am fine with a (maximum 6 range) healing gun.  However, straight healing is too similar to potions.  Why don't we follow Barren's suggestion and make it inflict Faith as well?


Meh. I didn't want it to inflict Faith for a couple of reasons, mainly because that kind gets in the way of part of the reason for creating a healing gun in the first place: giving Mediators a weapon that actually heals a decent amount so that they can be (actual) healers who focus on using Praise or Solution.

Additionally, that would likely make at least the newly buffed Cure spell extremely dumb, among other possible issues, given that it's newly instant.

If we want to make it add a positive status, then can't we just "compromise" yet again and make it add Reflect at some percentage since a) nothing does and b) that version of Coral Sword fell through?

Not that I'm against it adding Faith potentially or that I don't realize that being able to actively add Reflect could be problematic (for Wizard). I just have to be convinced that it should add Faith is all.

(Just like I'm not entirely against Barren's originally suggested name.)

I can understand it adding something so as to not be so "Potion-like" though.

Do you at least think its current WP is fine?


Quote from: Avalanche on July 22, 2013, 12:58:58 pm
I dont know it was discusses but i think masamune is stil to strong. What was wrong with it adding Haste OR Regen? Some Ai issues i guess. Otherwise make it add Regen and increase its Aoe


Besides what CT5Holy already said, the A.I. ended up focusing on the weaker form of Masamune even more than it does the strong one now. This is partly because of the "A.I. issue" that makes the A.I., for some reason, see Random flagged statuses seemingly as "All or Nothing" statuses still, with emphasis on the "All".

So, while I agree that the current Masamune is...obnoxious, weakening it (again) that way won't change anything for the better, especially with the buff to Dispel (Magic) & other some other anti-positive status things and the addition of Kibaku Fuda. Regen status's CT also possibly being shortened should help it be less...annoying as well.

That said, I still think that Masamune would be perfectly fine if it only added Haste at 100% in Linear fashion, even with Yell and Haste (1) being buffed as they should be. But since no one else wanted to do that, we'll see how things go for it now that other abilities can actually stop its net gains entirely rather than fight a losing game even if they're Slow 2.


Quote from: Avalanche on July 22, 2013, 12:58:58 pm
Also:
I thinnk shell and protect could need some buff.  Like make it heal a little Hp. Because the Ai uses it only when some HP is needed


I'm assuming you mean the spells Protect (1) and Shell (1) on White Magic and the not the statuses themselves.

Even if we gave them some HP to add, the A.I. still wouldn't use them proactively as far as I'm aware. They'd use them more often, yes, but they still wouldn't be likely to use them "appropriately" if you had both unless something was being charged on the target.

(That would mean Shell would be more likely to be used than Protect since the only "charging" physical abilities are Hawk's Eye and, in a way, Jump.)

As it is now, the buffs to Wall and, to a lesser degree, Save the Queen & Ragnarok probably obviates them anyway, really, and White Magic is already getting enough buffs despite arguably already being the strongest Magic skill set. So...yeah.


Quote from: CT5Holy on July 22, 2013, 02:05:31 pm
Did people agree on Forced 2H for Stone Gun? That seems unnecessary. Stone Gun already has the initial: petrify drawback, and you need AUP for it to do good damage (144 pre-fury no AUP, 192 pre-fury with AUP). Shields allow for flexibility when creating a Stone Gunner, and it's non-elemental, so you can't strengthen Stone Gun damage with a shield (which really helped make spellguns nuts).


Yes. People "agreed" to it by not saying shit about it despite it coming up...months ago. 

I'm only being this blunt--even though I do still curse too much--because that is precisely why I nag people to respond things (when they have the time). If one stays silent while he/she is actually around--so it's not like I'm blaming Andante49 or woodenbandman or JamesOnyx or other new people--to respond, then one gets to hold one's piece for the entirety of the next update. (Unless said thing one didn't bring up turns out, "luckily", to be hideously broken.)

I personally don't see it as actual agreement, but I understand why someone like Gaignun would.

That's why I "expect" someone other than him (or Dokurider) to reply to at least one of the weapon things when they actually have the time, i.e. some time this weekend.

I'm not exactly going to get my hopes up about you us humans though.

P.S. And this is now "late" by 22 minutes.

P.P.S. Or, it was, until I proofread it, realized its hideous amount of typos, fixed it about 30 minutes ago and then deleted the updated post without actually copying it accidentally, forcing myself to have to do it again. Nice to know I'm so very smart.... Anyway, it's now late by 83 minutes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 24, 2013, 05:26:16 am
Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am

I didn't want it to have Range 8 either. I just put that there because I expected people might kvetch if there suddenly wasn't a Range 8 gun, regardless of what it actually did.

I'm more than fine with "lowering" it to Range 6 since that's where I wanted it anyway.

But we already have an 8 Range gun in the form of Romanda Gun.  The tone is as if it's going away.  It does chip damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 05:33:49 am
(But Romanda Gun would be "sort of" going away if [we] made the Vector Vectra Gun anyway.)

After all, it and Mythril Gun would be combined since current Mythril Gun is pretty much pathetic and Range 8 is, really, too damn long, even for something that only does "chip damage". Range 6 is still pretty inescapable on most if not all small maps anyway when taking movement into account, so....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 24, 2013, 06:15:06 am
Harps/books:

Magdelamen's proc should be the one that changes instead of Lamia Harp, and i think sleep the spell is a much more fair proc than sleep the status.

Knight swords.  Excabilur crosses are scary (although not as scary as 2H durandal crosses will be ) I think that upping its attack power will make Holy absorbtion the central stratagey for many teams especially with mimes.

Witch Hunt:  Wow thats an intresting idea, A MP absorbing dance even one dealing PA+0 to all targets would be quite useful for many teams, and would get dance thrown on a lot of units that currently wouldn't think about it and makes the Dancer self sufficient. Also suggests a possible use for wizanabus as a similar health absorbing dance (still costing MP per use)   
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
KNIGHT('S) SWORDS


A 14 WP Excalibur would be identical to a 14 WP Ice Brand with Kaiser Plate, but with worse evasion.  Would this mean you have issue with the Ice Brand combo as well?

Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
Please no. If anything, that will only make Bizen Boat worse. While it will no longer be outright nuking MP pools, it will instead be putting mages into (slowly) dying loops of attempting to cast things, only to get them repeatedly canceled while taking "light" damage.


Good point.  We could make it deal zero damage, or light MP damage.

Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
1. If we give Orichalcum the same WP as Katar (and probably as Air Knife), then it's Orichalcum is just going to fall into disuse again as +1 MA really isn't all that useful for Knife users, especially compared to +1 PA.


Such is the fate of Orichalcum.  From the start, it's only real application has been giving mobility to MA units.  High melee damage isn't really its thing.

Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
2. In addition to the above, Main Gauche, which for some reason can be Two Handed as well, is already perilously close to Orichalcum as it is. That will likely overtake using Orichalcum anymore.


If it's a matter of maximising damage, players will choose Katar or Air Knife.  Neither Orichalcum nor Main Gauche will be considered, so comparing their WP is irrelevant.  We could drop Main Gauche's WP by 1 if you're still concerned.

Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
Healing gun stuff


Yeah, having it add Faith would make its combination with insta-Cure pretty broken.  A 33~50% chance of adding reflect is a better idea.  Nothing adds reflect in-battle at the moment.

Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
Do you at least think [the healing gun's] current WP is fine?


Yeah.  It's fine. 

Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
I'm assuming you mean the spells Protect (1) and Shell (1) on White Magic and the not the statuses themselves.

Even if we gave them some HP to add, the A.I. still wouldn't use them proactively as far as I'm aware. They'd use them more often, yes, but they still wouldn't be likely to use them "appropriately" if you had both unless something was being charged on the target.


Since I don't believe we can use a formula for adding statuses and change HP values at the same time, we would probably turn it into a cure spell that adds Protect/Shell at 100%.  In this case, the AI should use it like any other cure spell.  Off the top of my head, it could be something like:

Protect: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Heal_F(MA*6), 100% Add: Protect, 200 JP
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 05:16:54 pm
(I might as well do this now before I either get distracted looking for something all day or just fall asleep, provided I'll even have time if I don't do it now given I need to catch up with the tournament, among other things.)

So, like I said, I'll be lazy and "only" do Bags today as a token effort. I was going to do that them last night/early this morning alongside Knight Swords and Axes, but I figured "fuck it" when I saw I was going to be "late" with above post.

Meh.


BAGS/NOT-TAMPONS (BECAUSE EVEN WITHOUT THE [JOKING] SEXISM, WHY WOULD GUYS BE USING THEM THEN? EW)

CURRENTLY NOT CHANGING
1. C Bag: Probably still going to be rather vestigial as Dokurider and I have pointed out in different ways, though Kiyomori the katana changing should help it a bit at least. It would also be helped a bit by Wizard Staff changing as well (as I think it should), but I don't want to start talking about that right now. Staves can wait until Friday. There's probably a few other changes we can do at present to make it so it's "worth" using finally, but that will have to wait until class talk.

*looks at female Monk stats*


2. FS Bag: This is still probably the most used bag, even if mostly only on male Monks. It's fine.


3. H Bag: This is...probably fine. It's always seen middling at best use, though still better use than C Bag; I think the SCC tournament was the first time I ever touched this thing personally. I just wonder how much the (necessary) buff to Sprint Shoes will affect it....


CURRENTLY CHANGING
P Bag: 5 WP; 0% W-EV; Range: 1; Always: Regen; Special: Heals on hit; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords; Yes. (Arguably a buff even though it's unlikely to be healing much and more just likely to stop the A.I. from being an idiot and attacking with it like they will a lot more than they should with bags. Still, having no direct offense, even weak one, could bite the unit or its team in the ass, especially since Bags are good at anti-Charming, which this will no longer do.)


I was tempted to make a "mixed bag" joke about the above change, but I'll digress (even though I just did it by proxy...).



With that done, given all the time I still have today, maybe I'll actually getting around to testing some things again for once. [/this is unlikely]


Quote from: Malroth on July 24, 2013, 06:15:06 am
Harps/books:

Magdelamen's proc should be the one that changes instead of Lamia Harp, and i think sleep the spell is a much more fair proc than sleep the status.


Yes, this is what I was thinking too or, at least, what I was initially leaning towards as well. It's just difficult to decide between changes not happening in a vacuum, Harps not being available on any class other than Bards at present and Mary Magdelene being the second most used Book after Necronomicon.

Ultimately, I just figured that the Harp, doing more damage on average, should be the one to have the lesser status and given how long Sleep still lasts at present...well, I'd say that Stop is the lesser status, oddly. This especially with the introduction of Chronos Tear.

*points to idea behind tournament team*

Anyway, so noted. I still need to think about it more, but it's nice to know where at least one person stands on it.

Quote from: Malroth on July 24, 2013, 06:15:06 am
Knight swords.  Excabilur crosses are scary (although not as scary as 2H durandal crosses will be ) I think that upping its attack power will make Holy absorbtion the central stratagey for many teams especially with mimes.


Uhh...what?

Otherwise, I agree with you about the Mime thing. Even if we didn't ban all-map Mimicking like I think we should, elemental absorption (via Grand Cross, at least) is definitely going to get a huge boost with Mimes being able to not kill themselves with Grand Cross due to equipment wearing.

Quote from: Malroth on July 24, 2013, 06:15:06 am
Witch Hunt:  Wow thats an intresting idea, A MP absorbing dance even one dealing PA+0 to all targets would be quite useful for many teams, and would get dance thrown on a lot of units that currently wouldn't think about it and makes the Dancer self sufficient. Also suggests a possible use for wizanabus as a similar health absorbing dance (still costing MP per use).


Well, Witch Hunt as MP Absorb (and Wiznaibus/With Knives as HP Absorb) aren't terribly original or new ideas. I even tested them before years ago; just not in this context. I'd link to FFWikia here, maybe, if Wikia in general weren't flipping me off still.

(Hmmm...maybe I should test the draining Dances again since I vaguely remember there being a display issue....)

Anyway, yeah, if the A.I. will actually use it, then this should be quite the improvement over the current Witch Hunt in terms of both usability and fairness. It's just a matter of if the A.I. will though, unfortunately.   

As for making Wiznaibus absorb HP, that's probably less of a good idea, if only because of current Auto Potion. Well, that and the only Bloody Strings really sees any use of the things that absorb HP.

For now, we should probably go with Dokurider's HP percentage thing for Wiznaibus, especially since it won't be able to Mimicked anymore either and since that can actually beat out Auto Potion without having to compete with Lore (which HP Drain Wiznaibus would, unfortunately). (If we, you know, explicitly agree on my whole "Mimes should no longer be able to mimic abilities that hit the entire map" proposal.)


Quote from: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
A 14 WP Excalibur would be identical to a 14 WP Ice Brand with Kaiser Plate, but with worse evasion.  Would this mean you have issue with the Ice Brand combo as well?


I sorta do, to be honest. Most of that stems from Ice Brand being a) the strongest weapon in its category even before strengthening (especially now with Phoenix Blade dead), b) only ever used for Grand Cross (partly due to WP and partly due to a proc that's crappy on melee units) and c) thus being best with innate access to Shields, Swords & Clothes, of which only two Sword users innately have; that last part is admittedly probably for the best.

On top of that, there's Oil's ridiculousness and the A.I. being kinda dumb about positioning itself near enemy units that are about to Reraise when Angel Ring is basically the go-to accessory for Grand Crosses; this partly since it's the only accessory presently that even blocks Blind. And then you tack on shields being one of the few sources of M-EV? ...Yeah.

I mean, I'm glad that Ice Absorb is being used again after AeroGP's team finally stopped getting ignored and I have no problem with elemental absorb or Grand Cross & Southern Cross in general, obviously. I just think that Ice Brand is both a bit narrow and obnoxious in its current form on top of also helping to overshadow what would be the otherwise perfectly usable Tactician's Blade.

That is why I was thinking we could maybe drop its WP a bit and perhaps give it a better proc. But, meh, I'm not going to push that considering I've been pushy enough as it is and Ice is the element that's taking the worst hit going into 1.39 already due to Defense Ring getting the ability to null Ice.

That confessed, if you want to give Excalibur slightly more W-EV because of Ice Brand & Kaiser Plate, then I'd probably be fine that, especially in the face of Defender. It's just there's no reason that it should become the outright strongest Knight Sword again in terms of WP and stuff when it will likely be able to still compete against three buffed up (and two slightly nerfed) Knight Swords as it is.

Feel free to disagree of course. That's just where I'm coming from and why I was mystified for the past couple of months about your suggestion.
Quote from: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
Good point.  We could make it deal zero damage, or light MP damage.


Between the two, it would probably better to make it do light MP damage so that the loop eventually stops itself. Hell, it would probably better to make it do "moderate" MP damage--whatever that is--so that the loop stops itself a lot earlier and so that Bizen Boat (the ability) outpaces even the highest Move-MP Up, which think already is around 25~ even before the boost to Summoner's MP.

Of course, even that doesn't solve the potential problem of an AoE Charging & Performing cancelling ability. Would this version of Bizen Boat still be AoE?

Quote from: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
Such is the fate of Orichalcum. From the start, it's only real application has been giving mobility to MA units.  High melee damage isn't really its thing.


Yeah, that's kind of what bugs me, especially given of all the units that have innate access to Knives, only one actually maybe cares about the +1 MA and Squire has both to better MA-boosting weapons and the ability to boost its own MA via Focus.

As it is currently, Orichalcum just basically seems entirely vestigial, even on "max MA set-ups" despite its potential level of power (that Katar & Air Knife outdo without even trying). At least Mage Masher may perhaps have some redeeming qualities.

Orichalcum, at present and with the current changes we've talked about for 1.39, is just...there.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
If it's a matter of maximising damage, players will choose Katar or Air Knife.  Neither Orichalcum nor Main Gauche will be considered, so comparing their WP is irrelevant.  We could drop Main Gauche's WP by 1 if you're still concerned.


True. I'm not yet sure Main Gauche's WP "needs" to be dropped. I guess I'm still just a bit surprised it has such WP and can be Two Handed on top of all that evasion (and move).

Regardless, there are other issues, with class stats, that should probably be handled or at least discussed first before we maybe decide on doing anything to Main Gauche (if we do do anything to at all).

Quote from: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
Yeah, having it add Faith would make its combination with insta-Cure pretty broken.  A 33~50% chance of adding reflect is a better idea.  Nothing adds reflect in-battle at the moment.


Yay. I'd be completely fine with 33% Reflect, especially since the only magic skill set that can't get around Reflect in some meaningful way is White Magic, which helps create at least some kind of check to all the buffs we're giving that thing.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
Yeah.  It's fine.


Okay, good to know.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 24, 2013, 08:25:00 am
Since I don't believe we can use a formula for adding statuses and change HP values at the same time, we would probably turn it into a cure spell that adds Protect/Shell at 100%.  In this case, the AI should use it like any other cure spell.  Off the top of my head, it could be something like:

Protect: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Heal_F(MA*6), 100% Add: Protect, 200 JP


Oh. By "add some HP", I just meant "heal some HP as well". Sorry for the confusion due my lazy syntax.

Anyway, speaking of buffs to White Magic, I actually rather like this. It might need some fine-tuning, but it is actually quite fine as an initial draft, even right down to being appropriately costed. So, uh, good job on implementing Malroth's idea.

I would assume that Protect 2 and Shell 2 would stay the same and Shell would be exactly similar, just with 100% Add: Shell, correct?


Spoiled EDIT: Ugh. I really need to stop accidentally putting spoiler at the end of quotes all of a sudden. Also, I meant "weapons" not "skills" in the sentence about Squires under Orichalcum.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 24, 2013, 11:50:29 pm
Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 04:22:07 am
I'm only being this blunt--even though I do still curse too much--because that is precisely why I nag people to respond things (when they have the time). If one stays silent while he/she is actually around--so it's not like I'm blaming Andante49 or woodenbandman or JamesOnyx or other new people--to respond, then one gets to hold one's piece for the entirety of the next update. (Unless said thing one didn't bring up turns out, "luckily", to be hideously broken.)


It's true that I've been here quite often recently, but it's mostly just been me checking in and then leaving the page open as I go to do something else (have been "busy" adding a bunch of new stages and brstms to our SSB: Project M since it's new demo release).  I haven't been replying because I mostly agree with all of the opinions being expressed already in this thread, but since you put me on the spot, I guess I can make some short comments.


Katar and Air Knife definitely needed to be nerfed, but I disagree with changing Orichalcum.  It needs to have at least the same power of Katar in order to even be considered on a unit.  If anything, all knives really need is for thieves and ninjas to receive a much needed PA drop as suggested by The Damned.

Spellguns are being considered for nether damage correct?  If so, then mages won't have to worry about them as much.  If someone is running a mage, they're going to protect against silence.  Therefore, I would presume the best course of action for Mage Masher would be to keep it as Bizen Boat, only boost its proc rate.  Since Spell Edge is getting the special treatment, I'd think we should do the same for Mage Masher.  Let's boost it all the way up to 100%.



I like all the changes so far, even the change to Coral Sword which I was little hesitant to accept at first.  I like Balmung the way you have it (although it could go up to 9 or 10 WP if it's only going to be casting the spell Stop, especially if it isn't two swordable) but Storm Sword could use a slight boost.

Sword of Storms (begins playing phonograph)
9 WP; 10%W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Lightning; Special: 33% Add: Don't Move or Don't Act; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes.

Add: Don't Move is already covered by Ninja Edge and at a 50% proc to boot going into 1.39.  Even with this sword being able to be elementally boosted, I don't think Don't Move 33% is enough, so I included the chance to inflict Don't Act.  Sounds like fun if you ask me.



Since there was actually a lot The Damned brought up on these, I'm just going to list out changes I find most appropriate.

Asura Knife: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Fire; Strengthen: Fire; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Koutetsu Knife: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Range: 1; Element: Dark; Strengthen: Dark; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Bizen Boat: 9 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; +1 MA; 100% Add: Silence; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes
Murasame: 12 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Restore HP, Immune: Berserk; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Heaven's Cloud: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Wind; 50% Add: Slow; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes
Kiyomori: 8 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; 50% Cast: Bio; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes (Loses +2 MA)
Muramasa: 9 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; 100% Add: Faith; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes
Kikuichimonji: 10; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Earth; 25% Cast: Quake; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Masamune: 9 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 2; Special: 33% Cast: Dispel (Magic); Initial: Haste & Regen; 2H: Yes; 2S: Yes
Chirijiraden: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; +1 PA, Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes



Nothing to complain about here.  I actually love the buff Longbow is getting, as even though it's simplistic in design, I find the boost in range a huge boon.  Now with a boost to move, they might just be able to outmaneuver enemy gun units in the right terrain. 



I don't quite understand the boost in WP for the Blaze Gun.  Why not the others, especially Glacier Gun when it's going to be taking the biggest hit with Defense Ring receiving Null Ice and all?  Other than that, I love the Vectra gun idea The Damned.  And the more combining of equipment that's redundant or just taking up space the better.

Also, I doubt it will happen this patch, but I think guns should also just become 2H weapons.  This would put them at about the same level as longbows and give the 1H ability exclusively to crossbows, which may help increase their nearly nonexistent usage. 



I wouldn't mind if either of the two get the ability to inflict sleep status.  Putting someone to sleep by reading to them, or by playing them a soothing lullaby, makes sense.  The only thing I want to say is if one of them ends up casting Sleep the spell, then it should have a much higher proc, at least 50%, so it'll actually inflict the status every once in a while instead of just missing.  To be honest I would prefer it just to inflict sleep but at a lower percentile, like 20-25%.

I also agree that harps should be added to Equip Magegear.



I like your suggestions The Damned.  Personally, I would prefer Persia to basically become the cloth equivalent to Main Gauche.

Persia: 10 WP; 40 W-EV; Range: 2; Sp +1; 2H: Forced; 2S: No.

The difference between the two would be the range, stat boosts, and the ability to be two handed.  The forced 2H already detracts users who would like to have a shield slot, which Main Gauche provides, but the Sp +1 is a definite plus over the 1 Move.  Even with Cloths weapon equation being PA * WP over Daggers [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP, I still think 8 WP is a little too low.  If you think it still needs a slight degrade in WP, I wouldn't put it lower than 9 (which is the lowest WP a Range 2 weapon has, and those provide a self boosting MA +2 and Sp +2).

I also agree that cloths should be added to Equip Polearms, or at least something so they aren't the only exclusive weapons.  I don't think it would need a boost to JP, if anything I would consider dropping it.  But somewhere from 200-300 seems about right.



I think that making these 0 MP abilities is the best option for us at the moment, but I do think they'd have to be adjusted accordingly.  Making MP Drain 25% and Magic Rune 33% seems fair, and I don't believe we'll have to worry about Pilgrimage with MP Drain if it was that percentile.  That version of Witch Hunt sounds far better then the current incarnation, I'm up for it.

Also, I don't quite understand why you guys are so afraid of Bizen Boat the ability.  As Dokurider stated, the heavy amount of MP Restoration abilities there are out there helps balance these things out, not to mention how the AI like to use it.  I would prefer it staying at MA * 9 and just making it evadable, that way we don't have just another "carbon copy" sinkhole/throw stone running around. (This coming from a person who prefers to run Magic units)


Well shoot, there goes 5 hours of my day.  I'm going to save talking about Crossbows till later so I have a little longer to think them over.  Those are my opinions and I hope they help in at least some way.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 25, 2013, 01:17:17 am
I vote for keeping Stone Gun the way it is. It has a very real drawback; it costs 2 actions to simply get the Stone Gunner in the fight (1 action to remove Petrify, 1 action because Stone Gunner 'misses' his first turn), and then you have to wait for the Stone Gunner to get that first turn. I think the utility of the shield helps keep Stone Gun looking attractive.
If you want to make it Forced 2H, then I request it goes up to 13 WP (221 damage with AUP, pre-Fury).

I agree with Doku and JamesOnyx about Bizen Boat. When it lands, it hurts, yes, but that's its job! Mages have Move-MP UP, so they'll get enough MP back after a couple of turns (though yes, I realize that when they don't have MP its definitely awkward). You can kinda see it like Slow (or at least the way I see it) - when their guys are Slowed/no MP, that's your chance to capitalize, or at the very least recoup.
Also, those that wear Robe of Lords have enough MP to survive a Bizen Boat, and tons of people get that anyway for MP and Silence protection. Seems fine. If you guys go through with making Bizen Boat cancel Charging and Performing, yes it should stay at its current AoE. Sinkhole and Throw Stone have range, Bizen Boat gets AoE. The AoE won't be too relevant, as its unlikely to catch multiple units midcharge.

I vote for Excalibur getting 14 WP. I believe that even with 14 WP, Excalibur will remain one of the weaker Knight Swords. Save the Queen and Ragnarok granting Always: Protect/Shell is amazing! Those two will still have solid WP to do good damage while making the Paladin tough to take down. Excalibur + Grand Cross does keep the Paladin alive as well, but at the cost of its armor and accessory slots (Chameleon Robe/Angel Ring or Diamond Armor/Magic Ring). Excalibur + AUP on 11 PA Paladin deals... 17*14 = 238 pre-fury. Excalibur + Concentrate with 11 PA deals 182. That seems perfectly acceptable.

I am against lowering Ninja and Thief PA. Lowering their PA pigeonholes them into certain builds. For example, lowering Thief PA would cause them to primarily be speedy itembots, and if they want to even consider doing respectable damage, then they would need to get Two Hands. Lowering PA would also turn off using PA-reliant skillsets. Having 9 PA is low enough, honestly, because you need to spend 2 equipment slots to get them to 12 PA for the next 'boost' with Attack UP. Ninja PA was nerfed to 9 very early on in Arena's existence, where it has stayed this whole time, and I think they're in a fine place. If we're worried about 2H Katar Thieves and Hidden Knife+Ninja Knife Kagesougi Ninjas, let's examine the equipment/skills instead. I think their current stats are appropriate.

Also, for the record, H Bag and P Bag are more frequently used than FS Bag. FS Bag is, as noted, used primarily by Monks. Of course, H Bag and P Bag are also attractive options for Monks, as well as several other classes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Avalanche on July 25, 2013, 01:31:07 am
Ninja and Thief have 9 Pa. Reducing it would mean that they have equal Pa than a Chemist, Priest and Mediator. Talking about Mediator i think its stats are to good. A Female Mediator has 9 Speed, 9 MA and excelent HP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 25, 2013, 01:38:52 am
Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 05:33:49 am
(But Romanda Gun would be "sort of" going away if [we] made the Vector Vectra Gun anyway.)

After all, it and Mythril Gun would be combined since current Mythril Gun is pretty much pathetic and Range 8 is, really, too damn long, even for something that only does "chip damage". Range 6 is still pretty inescapable on most if not all small maps anyway when taking movement into account, so....


But why is 8 Range problematic?  Even with the opportunity to combine with Breaks, Kagesougi, or other weapon based attacks, it's not been a problem.  And it looks like the proposal is to get rid of two guns to be replaced with one.  Is there a reason for that?

Lastly I'm still not convinced about the need to nerf Stone Gun.  If the problem is that there are worries that people will select Stone Gun over Crossbow then we should continue to focus on strengthening Crossbows.  We KNOW that Crossbows are underpowered.  The potential nerf to Stone Gun is based on speculation.

Here are some thoughts from CT5Holy...
Quote from: CT5HolyCrossbows: How about +2 WP to all of them (except Gastrafitis)? So Bow Gun at 10 WP, status proc Xbows at 12 WP, Gastrafitis at 16 WP. Crossbows overall seem rather meh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on July 25, 2013, 01:44:52 am
(Hmmm...SSB: Project M sounds vaguely familiar for some reason. Anyway....

[Also hmmm...it would seem like two three people have posted before me. I deal with that later.])

You have posted in the ARENA: Balance Discussion thread and thus summoned me!

...You've met with a terrible fate, haven't you, JamesOnyx?

*yawns*

Ugh. So I just kinda woke up, but I figure I can at least answer this before I drag myself out of here for a walk, especially if you used up 5 hours replying. Ironically, this will probably be more concise than anything else. So...sorry about that, especially since I was doing the opposite of calling you out, really--I was giving the newer people a "pass":


1. Daggers: Yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced about Thief and Ninja being what needs to be changed for a significant part of it. That can wait until we talk about actual class stats though. Orichalcum may yet need a power decrease just given its potential absurdity with Two Hands, but, yeah, making it the same (or lower) WP as Katar and Air Knife just means that it's not going to be used again save maybe on Mediators, who have better options frankly, especially with the buff to Mythril Gun.


2. Mage Masher: Yeah, if it stays as is, then either giving it 100% Bizen Boat or Two Hands instead of Two Swords might be the best option. Still not quite sure given the current discussion over Bizen Boat....


3. Swords: Ha, name aside (given that I've barely played any of the LoZ series), that was actually the first version I was considering--I just thought Don't Act might be a bit much or at least might step on the currently unused Lightning Bow. I'd be fine with that change though, name included.


4. Katana: So noted. I'm not really sure that Heaven's Cloud *needs* the WP boost given the addition of Genji Helm, though I can at least understand why you're boosting it. Other than that and Asura going back to just being it normal self, that's generally what I think about thing. ...Although, it admittedly would be nice to vary W-EV a bit even if that's not necessary. I'm fine with disagreements though (as I'd like to think I've made apparent, even as acerbic as I can be at times); I just need to know about them since I'm not psychic or anything.


5. Longbows: So noted. I like Longbow and longbows in general too, so I would like think they will see more use. We'll see though.


6. Spellguns: Yeah...I can't recall why the WP boost was "necessary" and I'm hesitant about it too. I think Gaignun explained a while ago, which is why I said I vaguely trust him around that part. He can probably chime in around here when he has time, even if, yeah, Blaze Gun could probably still be viable with "only" 13 WP even if the Fire series of spells in ARENA have the least power of Black Magic(k).

And, yeah, Glacier Gun probably doesn't need a WP, but I am "worried" about it, even with Oil being quite likely to still get past nullification of things.


7. Vectra Gun: Good to have another explicit confirmation of that. I guess I'll go back some time tomorrow and edit in the new name, the "new" range and the ability to add Reflect at 33%.


8. Harps & Books: Yes, I agree about the proc percentage needing to vary radically depending on whether it's Sleep the spell or just Sleep the status. At present, I learn towards the former, if only because Sleep the status as a whole still lasts too damn long for my taste. (This even if Sleep the spell otherwise currently sucks, comparative to Paralyze and Mimic Daravon, which is why Sleep is getting a slight buff and Paralyze is getting a marked nerf.)

It's just a bit of an issue deciding on whether Mary, Mother of Books gets the new proc or Lamia Harp does, though like I told Malroth above, I lean towards the latter.


9. Equip Magegear Gets Harps: So noted. I guess that's three or four people who explicitly agree.


10. Cloths: So noted about Persia. That seems fair. I was just a bit weary given I had initially given it more W-EV (obviously) and given that Dancers hit like freight trains, so with that increasing Speed....


11. Equip Polearm gets Cloths: Okay. So noted. Good to know we also have at least three or four explicit agreements on this front already. We can hash out the exact JP cost, if any change is "needed", later.


12. MP-damaging abilities that aren't Bizen Boat: Okay. I feel better about the percentages chosen then and, yeah, with only Spell Absorb at 25%, it shouldn't be so ridiculous with Pilgrimage even if it still goes off Faith. After all, it will no longer able to steal enough MP (from very high end of the MP pool, which is to say basically a Summoner) to power even two high level Summons in one go as it would have at 33%.

Now it's just a potential problem of how (or if) the A.I. will actually use Spell Absorb and Witch Hunt with the changes; Magic Ruin's changes should be fine since the A.I. is largely intelligent about that--it just hasn't seen use because current Thief is kinda dumb for several reasons.


13. Bizen Boat the ability: As someone who also likes to use mages, I'll admit that Bizen Boat the ability isn't exactly what dissuaded me to step back somewhat from mages during 1.38(d).

*looks at Spellguns and Quickening*

That said, between the other MP abilities currently trigger Absorb MP and this now, the MP restoration abilities aside from Move-MP Up actually being only moderately used at best and, most importantly, Bizen Boat doing such MP damage in and an AoE in the same skillset where you want to stack MA as it is...yeah. Bizen Boat the ability isn't outright murdering anyway like the above two problems or Katar, but it's still rather obnoxious and, unfortunately, just M-EV along isn't going to do anything given that Charging & Performing completely negate M-EV (for some reason--I say this not to blame FFMaster or anything since it's been that way from vanilla; it just seems a tad odd when you think about it).

For the record, when I say that MP-restoration abilities are "only moderate", I mean overall. While Carbunkle is used quite a bit, Carbunkle & MP Restore are damn expensive and on one of the worse classes, stat-wise, which is why there's way more Summon Magic Secondary than actual Summoners. Spell Absorb doesn't see use at all and Chakra, while it sees a bunch of use, pretty much never sees use on mages except for those two weird males Oracles with Punch Art, one of which was mine.

Similarly, while Angel Song and Ethers see quite a bit of use, those usually aren't the mages themselves either, especially since Angel Song is male only. I guess the "issue" with most MP restoration, really, is that outside of Carbunkle (& MP Restore & Move-MP Up), is on not mages and thus not self-sufficient, which just means that Bizen Boat hitting can easily eat up a bunch of terms, especially if it hits more than one person/mage.

(Witch Hunt would probably be the same way with the MP damage it does now if a) it didn't trigger Absorb MP as it does now, b) it wasn't so reliant on unreliable Mimes to live up to its full level of abuse, c) it didn't otherwise sabotage itself or rely on MP itself and d) if current Dance didn't have a truckload of other problems, including overall inferiority to Sing/Song.)



Thanks for the feedback. Feel free to take your time with Crossbows and other stuff. We still need ideas with regards to probably replacing Bow Gun, though, so try and think about that to if you can. Perhaps you can draw something else from Legend of Zelda...? (Though, from little I know about the series as a whole, Link seems to be more of a longbow user; Zelda too, apparently.)

*wonders when he started saying "so noted" so much, especially in contrast with "duly noted"*


Numerical EDIT: Well...I also can't count apparently, how surprising.

Also, "Sword of Storms" isn't a LoZ reference, is it? I'm not sure why the hell I thought that....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on July 25, 2013, 02:15:28 am
Oh, what if we made Bizen Boat do PA*X MP damage? Just a thought.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andante49 on July 25, 2013, 02:23:03 am
Haven't been around long enough to really weigh in on the bulk of the discussion about weapons (besides the "elemental" spears not having their respective elements, that strikes me as odd).

As for "tangible" ideas, thinking of a Concentrate that takes away MEV. Rough sketch: "Incantation" 400JP Support for Oracle. Also a "Master" sword/crossbow/whathaveyou that ups the critical hit rate to ~15%, no clue on what WP and such would be fair.

In regards to the MP restoration talk, I think giving your mages (or any unit that uses MP skills) something beneficial to do if their MP runs dry is good team strategy. If it's too easy to restore MP then never-ending Flares and such wouldn't make for a very enjoyable game climate.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 25, 2013, 05:43:00 am
I myself enjoy flare teams and give a tiny cheer every time a pointy hat guy with glowing yellow eyes collapses nuclear death on somebody.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
Orichalcum's WP nerf is not about Orichalcum; it's about Katar.  If we don't nerf Orichalcum's WP, then Katar in 1.39 will become more redundant than Orichalcum now.  Damage bots and Draw-Out bots alike will use Orichalcum.

Quote from: JamesOnyx on July 24, 2013, 11:50:29 pm
I like all the changes so far, even the change to Coral Sword which I was little hesitant to accept at first.


Coral Sword is going to have some growing pains.  I predict that it will be completely broken with Two Swords.

Quote from: JamesOnyx on July 24, 2013, 11:50:29 pm
Heaven's Cloud: 10 WP; 15 W-EV; Range: 1; Element: Wind; 50% Add: Slow; Two Hands: Yes; Two Swords: Yes


Heaven's Cloud's status proc is too good for 10 WP, in my opinion.  This katana is already getting a buff with Genji Helm, so I don't believe the WP boost is necessary.

Quote from: The Damned on July 24, 2013, 05:16:54 pm
Would this version of Bizen Boat still be AoE?


Yes.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 25, 2013, 01:17:17 am
I vote for keeping Stone Gun the way it is. It has a very real drawback; it costs 2 actions to simply get the Stone Gunner in the fight (1 action to remove Petrify, 1 action because Stone Gunner 'misses' his first turn), and then you have to wait for the Stone Gunner to get that first turn.


That's a pretty minor drawback on all but the smallest maps, in my opinion.  The first turn is usually spent advancing to engage the opposing team.  If anything, it keeps you from lining up in mid-field to get hit by AoE.  The risk of being preemptively struck is quite small, and this risk is certainly worth Stone Gun's 150+ concentrated damage.

Quote from: The Damned on July 25, 2013, 01:44:52 am
6. Spellguns: Yeah...I can't recall why the WP boost was "necessary" and I'm hesitant about it too. I think Gaignun explained a while ago, which is why I said I vaguely trust him around that part. He can probably chime in around here when he has time, even if, yeah, Blaze Gun could probably still be viable with "only" 13 WP even if the Fire series of spells in ARENA have the least power of Black Magic(k).


Simple answer: Its WP needs to be boosted to 14 to keep its damage comparable to Glacier and Blast guns' damage.

Detailed answer: It's a simple law of ratios.  Nether-tier spells have lower Q values than tier-two spells.  Meanwhile, the Q values of fire, ice, and lightning always differ by 1 regardless of tier. (Fire has the lowest Q value, followed by ice, then lightning.)  This effectively increases the damage ratio between the three elements in the nether tier.

Consider the extreme case. Fire, ice, and lightning's Q values are 1, 2, and 3, respectively.  Even though their Q value differ by only 1, ice and lightning are, respectively, twice and three times as powerful as fire.  Accordingly, a fire spellgun would need roughly twice and three times the WP of an ice and lightning spellgun to deal the same damage.

Of course, this fact applies to damage ratio between Glacier Gun and Blast Gun, too.  The reason why Glacier Gun isn't receiving a similar WP boost is because it is already the strongest gun.  Moving to the nether tier makes its damage fall in line with Blast Gun.

Quote from: reinoe on July 25, 2013, 01:38:52 am
But why is 8 Range problematic?  Even with the opportunity to combine with Breaks, Kagesougi, or other weapon based attacks, it's not been a problem.


It has been a problem.  Crossbows, with their meager 4 range, aren't being used at all. 

Quote from: reinoe on July 25, 2013, 01:38:52 am
And it looks like the proposal is to get rid of two guns to be replaced with one.  Is there a reason for that?


We would add a healing gun.  The total number of guns remains at 6.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on July 25, 2013, 04:38:30 pm
Idea for the open crossbow slot

Stunner: 8wp, 5 W-Ev, Range 8, 50% proc  CT=0: 2h no, 2w no.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 25, 2013, 09:51:08 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on July 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
Orichalcum's WP nerf is not about Orichalcum; it's about Katar.  If we don't nerf Orichalcum's WP, then Katar in 1.39 will become more redundant than Orichalcum now.  Damage bots and Draw-Out bots alike will use Orichalcum.


I'm not quite following.  I don't believe I've noticed that many Orichalcums used on Draw-Out units in previous teams (except a few Mediators), and it's only use on damage bots I can think of would be substituting it in for Katar when you've already used up both slots (which then they should just build a Air Knife unit anyways).  It does seem a little redundant (which I hate) but what else should we do to it?  It's seeing almost no use (none were used in this tournament at all) and we want to nerf it?

All I'm saying is, make its WP equal to 1.39 Katar.  If Katar goes down, so does Orichalcum.  That way it's not being completely outclassed (even though it is). 

Quote from: Gaignun on July 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
Coral Sword is going to have some growing pains.  I predict that it will be completely broken with Two Swords.


Well, a 2S Thief with Coral Sword might be able to output close to or above 600 damage to one unit under favorable conditions, assuming my math is correct (Both attacks hit, both Suiton procs activate, both units are at 70 fury/40 faith or innocent)

*I suspect an increased usage in Flash Hats*
*Innocent might become the next "Oil" *
*Might be getting a little too ahead of myself*

Quote from: Gaignun on July 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
Heaven's Cloud's status proc is too good for 10 WP, in my opinion.  This katana is already getting a buff with Genji Helm, so I don't believe the WP boost is necessary.


To be honest, the only reason I made it's WP 10 is so it would match up with the other elemental Katana... What can I say, I like uniformity.

I'm completely okay with Heaven's Cloud staying at 9 WP.  Especially with the new Genji Helm.

Quote from: Gaignun on July 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
That's a pretty minor drawback on all but the smallest maps, in my opinion.  The first turn is usually spent advancing to engage the opposing team.  If anything, it keeps you from lining up in mid-field to get hit by AoE.  The risk of being preemptively struck is quite small, and this risk is certainly worth Stone Gun's 150+ concentrated damage.


All I can say is I completely agree

Quote from: Gaignun on July 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
Simple answer: Its WP needs to be boosted to 14 to keep its damage comparable to Glacier and Blast guns' damage.

Detailed answer: It's a simple law of ratios.  Nether-tier spells have lower Q values than tier-two spells.  Meanwhile, the Q values of fire, ice, and lightning always differ by 1 regardless of tier. (Fire has the lowest Q value, followed by ice, then lightning.)  This effectively increases the damage ratio between the three elements in the nether tier.

Consider the extreme case. Fire, ice, and lightning's Q values are 1, 2, and 3, respectively.  Even though their Q value differ by only 1, ice and lightning are, respectively, twice and three times as powerful as fire.  Accordingly, a fire spellgun would need roughly twice and three times the WP of an ice and lightning spellgun to deal the same damage.

Of course, this fact applies to damage ratio between Glacier Gun and Blast Gun, too.  The reason why Glacier Gun isn't receiving a similar WP boost is because it is already the strongest gun.  Moving to the nether tier makes its damage fall in line with Blast Gun.


That makes sense, I see the reasoning behind it now. 

Quote from: Gaignun on July 25, 2013, 07:42:34 am
It has been a problem.  Crossbows, with their meager 4 range, aren't being used at all. 


Didn't someone bring up the idea to increase their range to 5?  I think it would make sense since guns would still have the best neutral range, and longbows would still best them in precision and vertical range.  If so, I think boosting all of their WP by 2 might be a bit much as CT5Holy suggested... but let me do some calculations first just to make sure.

... Nevermind, 12 seems just about right.  I could even see them going to 13 because boosting their damage output requires a lot of investment/support.

Or how about making crossbows capable of being 2H?!  It would make them the only range weapons capable of using 2Hs power boost, but as a downside we'd have to keep their WP down at around 8-9 and most likely their range at 4 (so move 3 units have a chance to get to them).  This would make them quite versatile, capable of poking and spreading nasty statuses and dealing good damage if they decide to 2H.

I think 10 WP would be too much, especially on a distance weapon (320 damage on a Max PA Archer pre fury) but it would leave the unit quite fragile.

I'll go ahead and make two separate lists for Crossbows, one where they're incapable of 2H and another where they are.


Night Killer: 13 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Blind; 2H: No; 2S: No
Silencer: 13 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Silence; 2H: No; 2S: No
Poison Bow: 12 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Poison; 2H: No; 2S: No
Hunting Bow: 10 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 50% Add: Sleep; 2H: No; 2S: No (Tranquilizer anyone?  Could probably use a lower proc rate)
Gastrafitis: 14 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5; 100% Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Sleep; 2H: Forced; 2S: No (Changed so it matched your current theme)



Night Killer: 9 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Blind; 2H: Yes; 2S: No
Silencer: 9 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Silence; 2H: Yes; 2S: No
Poison Bow: 8 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Poison; 2H: Yes; 2S: No
Hunting Bow: 8 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 50% Add: Sleep; 2H: Yes; 2S: No (Being only 7 WP without 2H, it could probably stay at 50% with this version... maybe)
Gastrafitis: 14 WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 4; 100% Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Sleep; 2H: Forced; 2S: No


And as for the replacement for Bowgun, I'd like to submit a completely unoriginal design.

Vampire Hunter/Vampire Killer/"Cross" Bow
12(8) WP; 0 W-EV; Range: 5(4); +1 Sp; 100% Cast: Seal Evil; 2H: No(Yes); 2S: No

All of the FLAVOR!  Anyways, it would be nice to see a crossbow that has a stat boost, which is all this basically is with an added bonus of sometimes petrifying those nasty cursed ring units.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 25, 2013, 01:17:17 am
I am against lowering Ninja and Thief PA. Lowering their PA pigeonholes them into certain builds. For example, lowering Thief PA would cause them to primarily be speedy itembots, and if they want to even consider doing respectable damage, then they would need to get Two Hands. Lowering PA would also turn off using PA-reliant skillsets. Having 9 PA is low enough, honestly, because you need to spend 2 equipment slots to get them to 12 PA for the next 'boost' with Attack UP. Ninja PA was nerfed to 9 very early on in Arena's existence, where it has stayed this whole time, and I think they're in a fine place. If we're worried about 2H Katar Thieves and Hidden Knife+Ninja Knife Kagesougi Ninjas, let's examine the equipment/skills instead. I think their current stats are appropriate.


Don't thieves already use 2H like crazy, and deal absolutely BONKERS damage?

*looks at your current teams thief*

Thieves seem to have absolutely everything.  Decent HP (144), amazing speed (10), good PA (9), move and jump (each at 4, but that could be seen as a minus on larger maps), and an amazing C-EV (20).  Not to mention abilities like Steal Heart and Quickening (which is thankfully dying) and great equipment choices.  A base of 8 PA would still be 2 equipment slots away from 12, and it will help limit their options.  They would still make great 2H users, Itembots, Talk Skill users, and Kiyomori and Masamune spammers.  That doesn't seem that bad to me.

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 25, 2013, 02:15:28 am
Oh, what if we made Bizen Boat do PA*X MP damage? Just a thought.


*Thinks of how abusable it would be with Thieves, Ninja's, Monks, Dancers, ect and how utterly helpless magic classes could end up feeling*

I would rather not...

Quote from: Avalanche on July 25, 2013, 01:31:07 am
Ninja and Thief have 9 Pa. Reducing it would mean that they have equal Pa than a Chemist, Priest and Mediator. Talking about Mediator i think its stats are to good. A Female Mediator has 9 Speed, 9 MA and excelent HP.


I agree that Mediators seem to have it really good (the same with Theives, even if CT5Holy provided a decent counter argument).  But I'm going to wait saying anything else until we get to covering base stats.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on July 25, 2013, 09:52:26 pm
What if we fused parry edge with platinum sword together? Me and fdc were discussing about it and we both agree that parry edge isn't all that great other than evasion and platinum sword while good but not too used.

Here's what would be a good idea:

11 WP
25% WEV
2S
no 2H
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 25, 2013, 10:27:47 pm
Quote from: Barren on July 25, 2013, 09:52:26 pm
What if we fused parry edge with platinum sword together? Me and fdc were discussing about it and we both agree that parry edge isn't all that great other than evasion and platinum sword while good but not too used.

Here's what would be a good idea:

11 WP
25% WEV
2S
no 2H


A Max PA Squire would be dealing from 276 (70 vs 40 Fury) to 388 (70 vs 70 Fury) with 2S if both hits connect?  It doesn't seem that bad, but why would you get rid of the option to 2H may I ask?  I think it comes out to about the same damage as 2S if I'm calculating everything correctly.  Isn't 2H just a higher risk, higher reward strategy compared to 2S?  You don't even get the extra boost to your evasion.

Also, doesn't this just seem like a sword version of 1.39 Slasher?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on July 25, 2013, 10:38:09 pm
Parry edge isn't that useful aside from evasion and platinum sword is quite underused. lowering the WP slightly would still keep it steady. As far as the high damage you're assuming compats. Two swords is actually a bit more flexible than two hands considering that two hands does more damage in one go usually than two swords
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on July 25, 2013, 11:57:18 pm
I'm assuming compats?  I don't think so... although my calculations are always coming out a little off most of the time.


Max PA Squire (2S Platinum Sword)
VS 40 Fury Unit
16 * 11 = 176
176 * ((105 * 75) / 10000) = 138 [ 1 hit ]
138 * 2 = 276 [ 2 hits ]

VS 70 Fury Unit
16 * 11 = 176
176 * ((105 * 105) / 10000) = 194 [ 1 hit ]
194 * 2 = 388 [ 2 hits ]


Max PA Squire (2H Platinum Sword)
VS 40 Fury Unit
16 * 22 = 352
352 * ((105 * 75) / 10000) = 277

VS 70 Fury Unit
16 * 22 = 352
352 * ((105 * 105) / 10000) = 388


I'm pretty sure that 2H doubles WP if I'm correct, or else I have no idea how it effects my 2H Stick user... 2H you either hit big or miss, with 2S at least you have a better chance to get some damage in, trigger multiple procs, or even stack stat boosts.

But all of that aside, I completely understand why we'd combine the two.  In fact I'm all for it.  I'm just worried about it pushing in on the new, not as distributed, Slasher.

But that creates another open sword slot.  Does anyone have any ideas what we would put in its place?

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
OK....Barren's going off my suggestions, so I may as well present them all.  Mind you, I haven't played for a while between schoolwork, my patch, and now living in China (so I can't watch YT).

1) If I bring up a weapon / skill with certain mechanics changes, it's operating under the assumption everything else I didn't talk about for that weapon / skill (or any other weapon / skill) is being held constant, regardless of current community consensus (because I really can't follow all you've done since I last left and to be honest, many of those points you all considered settled I'd have to reopen).  I am going off http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6483.0.
2) As a general design principle for weapons:
A) No melee weapon with effective WP > 11 should have 2S or 2H unless it does random damage or heals.  Weapons at effective 11 WP cannot have any other features that distinguish them, such as +Stats, Procs, or EV > 20.
B) We always assume mage and mage equivalents (Bd, Sm-F) have higher effective MA totals than physicals due to their higher base MA vs. PA and availability of +MA equips on knight classes vs. +PA equips.  However, except for Sm-F, we always assume they have less HP than equivalent physical units due to lower innates.  Hence +1 MA and +1 PA are NOT interchangeable on weapon slots; the type of unit using the equip must be considered.
C) We always design weapons with the classes that use them in mind as first priority.  Second priority goes to features not currently existing in the metagame.  Third priority goes to making underused items more tenable.

Weapons:

Knives--Remove 2H from all of them except the main gauche because Air Knife and Katar are breaking the game, but even without 2H, they are still very usable as....
A) Air Knife + Grand Cross
B) Katar + ninjitsu or cover fire (+1 Move is arguably just as good as +1 PA, and much more so if you have PA Save or Battle Song)
C) Orichalum + Draw OUt (+1 Move is arguably just as good as +1 MA, and much more so if you have MA Save or Magic Song)

Ninjato--Change:
A) Short Edge (33% Oil, 10 WP because the key to using this sword is the oil proc, which is unusual among weapons, and serves the strategic role as anti-elemental)

Sword--Change:
A) Phoenix Blade to 14 WP, Fire Elemental, 33% Proc Fire2 because the current implementation can only be used on Jumpers and Balancers but is lethally broken on both.  The 33% Proc (higher than Ice Brand) is to compensate for the weaker damage output of Fire2.
B) Parry Edge and Platina Edge should be fused to 11 WP, 20 WEV, 2H, 2S because it saves space and combines two subpar weapons into one stronger combo.  The slight WP reduction is to follow Rule 2A.
C) Remove Coral Sword's Proc as to follow Rule 2A.  It has 11 effective weapon power since it self-strengthens.
D) Make Ultima Edge 2S instead of 2H so a bard or female squire may actually use it to decent effect with 2S.
E) Remove Blood Sword from 2H because on non-undead units, the drain effect has the effect of reducing enemy WP or Spell Y per round if it connects (because it restores HP).  Of course, in a 1v1 scenario, it is almost as if the enemy is fighting with -10 WP (if they are both physical with the same PA), but in a multiplayer scenario where the user doesn't always take damage, it may well be less.  That being said, on average, the worth from the drain effect is at least 2 WP.
F) Delete Moonlight because paladins and samurai have enough options as is.  Other jobs don't have high enough HP to use it well.  Even so, the effect is nowhere as effective as Climhazzard due to how the AI treats low HP as an opportunity to heal rather than attack, but if you want to retain the effect, it should go to Lances (see below).

Katana--Change:
A) Asura needs 9 WP because 12.5 effective WP is too high for a 2H able weapon.  This is particularly important because samurai has innate 2H and can only use katanas innately.  I'm aware this makes the game more "boring" because it becomes an elemental clone of Koutetsu, but the difference in how fire and dark elemental are used in the game (due to differing spells) should be enough to differentiate the two.
B) Bizen Boat should be 11 WP and a 100% Sinkhole proc (which only works on charging/performing units) instead of silence.  There shouldn't exist a 100% weapon proc for any permanent status, but the basic idea of shutting up a mage should remain.  The WP increase is to make up for the weakening of effect.
C) Heaven's Cloud should be 10 WP and a 33% Slow proc.  Slow is actually stronger than haste because a 50% reduction in effective SP is actually the same as if haste doubled the user's effective SP.  The WP increase is to make up for the weakening of effect.
D) Kikuichimoji is a favorite of mine.  I'd like it back to 13 WP, no 2H because that would immediately give it use on Grand Cross teams (since Earth is the easiest element to absorb).  Furthermore, the current implementation is awful and sees no use.  Sm-M's MA is too low to actually use the proc effectively and a self-strengthening Asura (currently also at 10 WP) looks far more tempting.  Sm-F's MA is far better used on EQ Polearm + Poles or MATKUP or Overwhelm + Kiyomori than this.

Axe--Change:
Giant Axe should be 11 WP and +1 PA/MA.  The reasoning here is a bit odd, but let's first explain what's wrong with this weapon.  Strengthen Earth + Earth gives it 12.5 effective WP, but the earth elemental seriously reduces its potential as many earth absorb and halve teams exist, so I'd rather use Slasher.  The WP is too low to justify grand cross (when you have air knife and excalibur).  Chiri covers the same niche on samurai, and geomancer, although able to boost some attacks with it, doesn't get a boost on Hell Ivy and Carve Model (the two most common terrains).  Boosting ninjitsu with this is equally awful as the best two ninjitsu classes (monk and squire) can't use this innately.  Hence, this weapon is second best at everything and no job can really usefully fuse any of the above offensive tactics into one class.  Thus, I propose this change to give it a niche with geomancer and Sm-M (with innate 2H).

Guns--Change:
A) Spellguns all need to have 4 range, not 6.  They are clearly the strongest guns, on par with the damage output of Gastrofitis after overwhelm and kaiser plate (so they should have the same range), but under normal circumstances, they don't do 300+ damage without Pilgrimage, so no damage changes are necessary. Reducing their damage or changing their effects simply takes away the wonderful synergy that makes gun teams so useful.  Reducing their range, however, makes it easier for mages (who move after gunners) and longbow users to outrange and defeat gunners.  It will also make Stone Gun see more use again.

Longbow--Change:
A) Silver Bow should be 15 WP, +2 MA, 40% Proc: Holy because as it stands, it's not being used effectively.  Three reasons are archer's bad MA and low proc rate, overshadowing by mythril bow and perseus bow (with southern cross), and the weakness of the proc compared to other longbows.  I think my fix addresses all of these and gives mages a real reason to consider EQ: Longbow.
B) Conversely, Mythril Bow needs to drop to 14 WP.  It's a little too dominant right now.
C) Lightning and Ice Bow can stand to lose their +2 MA since it is mostly useless on archer and there's not enough other features on those weapons to entice mages to use them.

Harps--Change:
A) Make the Blood Harp 11 WP because the drain effect is worth at least 2 WP (which compares favorably with 12 WP + 33% Status).

Books--Change
A) Necronomicon could use 15 WP because of the changes below.
B) Madlemgen has 14 WP, 33% Stop, Boost: Ice to help out Rime Bolt.  The WP boost is because of the changes below.
C) Book of Sealing has 11 WP, 50% Bizen Boat.  This is to replace the current monster dictionary effect.
D) Papyrus Plate has 8 WP, 50% Flare.  In short, a magical equivalent of the climhazzard knives everyone's grown to love or hate.

Spear--Change
This is the lancer's preserve, and as thus, the +1 SP spears are in a quandary.  At 9 SP, they can't really jump on anyone and thus need to have spears whose attacks are meaningful and stack well with their heavy tanking abilities.  The spillover will encourage EQ: Polearm on knights and samurais.
A) Spear should have 9 WP, 2Hable, and gain the effect from Moonlight of 50% Blade Beam.  Although I did mention above that the AI is not very efficient at using it, Spear's peculiarities need to be noted.  At 9 SP (from +1 SP of the spear), the user subjects himself to attack from slower 8 SP units, such as mages and 8 SP physicals.  On his second turn, assuming the user still has enough health and isn't using item or chakra, he will attack + the 50% proc.  Similarly, a user can rebuff a fast assault team (of 10+ SP units) with the same concept and then, on his turn, retaliate for heavy damage.  You can even pair this with counter (and with a spear, the 2 range is handy).
B) Myhtril Spear => Blood Spear should have 11 WP and Drain HP.  The effect greatly boosts lancer's tanking (just be wary of undead).  Since lancer is an armor class AND lancer is the only native spear class, this effect is actually equivalent to the Blood Harp as you trade 1 range for +1 SP.
C) Partisan should gain the effect of 20% Dead.  Odin needs a counterpart in weapons and many people do not take the time to null Death Sentence (and Dead) because of Refute.  I think this will pose a nasty shock for a lot of playstyles, especially if used by tankier lancers.
D) Holy Breath should simply be holy damage at MA * 8.  Even with the 2H bonus on a lancer of samurai, I don't quite think it's that strong (because we must remember that the corresponding MA weapon of whale whisker is typically coming off a mage unit with way more MA and 2H).

Veils--Changes:
A) Ryozan Silk should be 11 WP because the effect is more permanent than Cashmere and Persia (and yes, Dn / Support Mage is a fairly useful combo where Ryozan Silk does come in handy).

Accessories--Changes:
A) Cursed Ring--I have a rather creative solution to this problem.  In my testing vs. Doku's 2H thieves, I found that if units with undead and immune: crystal did not always revive in 3 turns, I would have won at least half my matches.  One particular match stuck out where I scored a technical victory but the CT timer on one of the undead thieves was 100 at 0 death counter and he revived and returned to win it all.  Instead of nerfing stats, why not the mechanic?  In other words, if a unit is undead and is immune to crystal, the chances of reviving when CT timer = -1 should be 50% rather than 100%.  Statistically, this averages to a cursed ring user reviving every 4 turns, but the uncertainty can gnaw on a more cautious player and make the more aggressive undead strategies untenable before a good defense.
B) Power Wrist could easily be 15 A-P/MEV and +1 PA
C) Genji Gauntlet must be changed because a charging mage has 0 effective MEV and a draw out user or geomancer would clearly prefer the Magic Gauntlet, Red Shoes, or Diamond Armlet.  It should be +1 MA, ignore enemy MEV because as someone pointed out, MEV is no longer as trivial as it was in S6 and a magic team that's being totally blocked by Aegis Shields + Abandon needs an equipment response.  This is also because I have no idea which support abilities FFM can still freely hack.

Skills--Changes
A) I read somewhere that you all wanted maintenance being a movement ability (assuming FFM can code it properly).  That would definitely increase its use, as would doing the same with defend, though FFM was planning to add a CT bonus to that skill (just the coding was awful).
B) Bizen Boat is slightly too strong.  However, reducing to 1 AoE v2 would be admitting MP destruction > the same amount of HP damage, which is obviously wrong.  I think 1 Range, 1 AoE v2 would be the optimal solution.
C) I may be biased here but you all overnerfed -ton last time.  As I was saying earlier in my discussion on mage jobs vs. physicals, there's a fundamental imbalance between a wizard (with higher base MA to a squire's PA or a monk's effective PA since he can't use hats) than a physical job.  Mk / Nj or Sq / Nj do significantly less damage with ninjitsu and are much less flexible with equipment choices than BM / WM or WM / BM are with black magic, much less Sc / Su, etc.  Furthermore, ninjitsu doesn't even have AoE, so there's even less rationale for justifying MEV.  Instead of insuring "parity" between -ton and Nether Spells (when the classes and spells themselves are just too different), the correct comparisons should be with physical equivalents like Wave Fist, Cover Fire, and Earth Slash.  In that case, it's clear -ton is too weak; my B Team dropped ninjitsu for cover fire which had AoE, fewer restrictions, and had equal average damage.  Hence, a system restore is in order:
-ton: Y = 11, DEFUP, unevade, Reflect (15 MP) and Shuriken: Hits = 4, Y = 2, DEFUP, MEV, noreflect
At the least now, I have a reasonable choice to make between Cover Fire and -ton.
D) I think Kagesougi right now is still pretty overpowered.  I can run a perseus archer with 20 effective PA, cherche, and still deal 320 damage with kagesougi at range + status.  Pretty much, everything that was really nasty about my last season's gunner is still there, substituting his stronger kagesougi blaze gun of S6 for the chances to add DA /DM alongside blind.  In all, that's not a loss.
However, what if we made Kagesougi PA * 8 (Hokouton's formula)?  All of a sudden, my perseus archer's damage is cut in half and ATKUP ninja's damage is also cut to no more than 392 (while running 10 SPD and 253 HP, good luck surviving).  As long as you use the "Add Status" flag, Kagesougi will be used by the AI to add status while dealing sub-weapon damage on the side.  It'd probably be worth 8 MP since it's a mini-bad luck + light damage unless you chose to invest in PA and a ranged weapon or two swords.
E) Bullrush isn't strong enough to warrant a recoil.
F) Similarly, Tsumakuzu does not need to conflict with Bullrush by also nulling haste.  INstead, it could easily be merged with Hokouton into an unevadable skill (1 Range, 1 AoE, 2 Vertical, 3 Directions, 12 MP, unevade, weapon damage)

Otherwise, I really don't see anything else worth changing.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 27, 2013, 10:46:41 am
Nice to see you around here again, FDC.  Going by your suggestions, I'm not sure how closely you've been following our changes, but they are mostly summarised here (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9753.0).

The following are selective responses to your suggestions.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
Ninjato--Change:
A) Short Edge (33% Oil, 10 WP because the key to using this sword is the oil proc, which is unusual among weapons, and serves the strategic role as anti-elemental)


Short Edge's proc is already at 50%, so it is serving its role very well.  WP is dropped to 9 to compensate for its nasty synergy with spellguns, Draw Out, and so forth.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
D) Kikuichimoji...


Indeed, it is seldom used.  We are introducing Genji Helm (Strengthen: Wind, Earth) to help remedy both this and Heaven's Cloud.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
Guns--Change:
A) Spellguns all need to have 4 range, not 6.  They are clearly the strongest guns, on par with the damage output of Gastrofitis after overwhelm and kaiser plate (so they should have the same range), but under normal circumstances, they don't do 300+ damage without Pilgrimage, so no damage changes are necessary. Reducing their damage or changing their effects simply takes away the wonderful synergy that makes gun teams so useful.  Reducing their range, however, makes it easier for mages (who move after gunners) and longbow users to outrange and defeat gunners.  It will also make Stone Gun see more use again.


Unfortunately, spellguns are never used under "normal conditions."  If players can boost spellgun damage to 1HKO territory, they invariably will.  In response, we're making spellguns cast Nether spells, which are weaker and cannot be boosted with Pilgrimage.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
Longbow--Change:
A) Silver Bow should be 15 WP, +2 MA, 40% Proc: Holy because as it stands, it's not being used effectively.  Three reasons are archer's bad MA and low proc rate, overshadowing by mythril bow and perseus bow (with southern cross), and the weakness of the proc compared to other longbows.  I think my fix addresses all of these and gives mages a real reason to consider EQ: Longbow.
B) Conversely, Mythril Bow needs to drop to 14 WP.  It's a little too dominant right now.


Mythril and Ultimus bows' WP are being dropped, so Silver Bow will become better by comparison.  Silver Bow's proc rate could indeed be increased, but I don't think it'll need a WP boost at the same time.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
Harps--Change:
A) Make the Blood Harp 11 WP because the drain effect is worth at least 2 WP (which compares favorably with 12 WP + 33% Status).


Bloody Harp's WP is actually going down to 10.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
D) Papyrus Plate has 8 WP, 50% Flare.  In short, a magical equivalent of the climhazzard knives everyone's grown to love or hate.


I'm hesitant about this change.  Flare is too powerful for a 50% proc rate.  For example, on a semi-optimised setup (40-70 BrFa, 15 MA, MAtkUP), Flare will hit for 283~396 damage.  This practically makes the book 1HKO 50% of the time.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
C) Genji Gauntlet must be changed because a charging mage has 0 effective MEV and a draw out user or geomancer would clearly prefer the Magic Gauntlet, Red Shoes, or Diamond Armlet.  It should be +1 MA, ignore enemy MEV because as someone pointed out, MEV is no longer as trivial as it was in S6 and a magic team that's being totally blocked by Aegis Shields + Abandon needs an equipment response.  This is also because I have no idea which support abilities FFM can still freely hack.


This sounds kind of broken.  Creating a way to get around M-EV has never been a concern of mine because magic is (a) powerful, (b) can be used from 5~6 tiles away, and (c) usually targets multiple units at once.  There are already a few ways of getting around M-EV:

The best strategy, however, is to simply mix physical offense with magic offense.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
C) I may be biased here but you all overnerfed -ton last time.  ...[T]here's a fundamental imbalance between a wizard (with higher base MA to a squire's PA or a monk's effective PA since he can't use hats) than a physical job ... Furthermore, ninjitsu doesn't even have AoE, so there's even less rationale for justifying MEV.  Instead of insuring "parity" between -ton and Nether Spells (when the classes and spells themselves are just too different), the correct comparisons should be with physical equivalents like Wave Fist, Cover Fire, and Earth Slash ... Hence, a system restore is in order:
-ton: Y = 11, DEFUP, unevade, Reflect (15 MP)


First of all, many of us agree that Tons are weak at the moment.  For this reason, we are buffing them (just not back to 1.37 levels as you propose at the end of the quote).  The three Tons are being variegated:  Suiton ignores reflect and evasion but receives a damage nerf, Meiton does not trigger reaction abilities, and Fuuton receives a damage buff.

Tons are not comparable to Black Magic and Punch Art.  Black Magic and Punch Art require 70 faith and brave, respectively, so their users weaken themselves to damage of like types.  On the other hand, Tons require low faith, so their users are typically impervious to magic.  In other words, it's safer to use Tons than Black Magic or Punch Art.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
D) I think Kagesougi right now is still pretty overpowered.


Yep.  We all do.  It's losing is Don't Act proc and having its MP cost increased for a start.  Merging it with Hokouton hasn't been considered.  Would it retain Hokouton's AoE?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on July 26, 2013, 05:59:06 am
F) Similarly, Tsumakuzu does not need to conflict with Bullrush by also nulling haste.  INstead, it could easily be merged with Hokouton into an unevadable skill (1 Range, 1 AoE, 2 Vertical, 3 Directions, 12 MP, unevade, weapon damage)


Tsumazuku is being replaced with something much more useful: a ranged AoE skill that cancels both Haste and Regen.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 29, 2013, 07:47:47 am
Double post, but oh well.  Here are a few tweaks in light of recent discussions.

Air Knife: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Wind Elemental, No 2H
FDC raises a good point about Air Knife's worth as a Grand Cross weapon.  This will keep it semi-useful for Grand Cross.

Coral Sword: 8 WP, 10 W-EV, Water Elemental, Strengthen: Water, 25% Cast: Suiton
The 33% proc rate will be pretty broken with Flash Hat.  Proc rate and WP have been adjusted to fix this.

Save the Queen: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
Ragnarok: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
These swords can be paired with perfumes to make super-tanky Paladins.  (e.g. A Paladin with one of these swords and a complementary perfume, Unyielding, and 40 Brave/Faith will cut all damage by roughly two-thirds.)   To balance this, such setups will have no evasion whatsoever.

Slasher: 12 WP, 20 W-EV, Yes 2S
25 W-EV is a little too high for a 12 WP weapon that is dual-wieldable.  At 25 W-EV, dual-wielded slashers with mantles can reach 90% P-EV from the front.

Silver Bow: 13 WP, 10 W-EV, 40% Cast: Holy
This will make Silver Bow more useful on mages.  It will also make Silver Bow the most powerful bow if Archers are willing to risk having 70 brave and faith.

Speed +1: 500 JP
400 JP is honestly too cheap for what will be an amazing movement ability on a skill set with Abandon and Two Swords, two other great RSMs.

Frog: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 18 MP, Hit_F(MA+60), Add: Frog, 150 JP
I realise that Faith will be an easier status to make use of now that spellguns are being nerfed.  Accordingly, Faith-charged Frog spells will become a thing.  So, instead of boosting the Y value to make this skill more usable, let's lower CT.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 03:05:19 am
Since fdc finally blew the whistle on Knives, I'll comment on them since I've been analyzing their strengths for some time.

Yes it's true that if Air Knife and Katar loses it's 2H, it will just be replaced by Orichalcum. But even if we remove Orichalcum's 2H, yet another knife will rise to take it place, Main Gauche. In fact, even if Orichalcum kept it's 2H and current WP, it'll still be eclipsed by Main Gauche. Despite MG's lower WP, it's stuipid high W-Ev will insure that Cursed 2H Thieves will remain in full force. In fact, by removing it's natural predator, Always: Transparent, they'll be even stronger than ever, pissing everyone off even more. Granted, no longer can they gank all but the best of physical tanks, but they make up for it by being harder to hit and thus 25% more annoying than Katar Thieves ever were. So then should we remove all instances of 2H from Knives period? I say no. I think that 2H Thieves should be a thing because it's a unique and exciting strategy and they should still have some fangs behind the concept; they just need to be better balanced.

The core aspect that unbalances 2H Knives are +1 Move. +1 Move makes 2H Knives not just the strongest weapon for Thieves, but if it wasn't for it's damage formula, it would be the strongest melee weapon in the game period. If we added +1 Move to Lionheart, it would be the de facto weapon of melee units that could get their hands on it. Allowing powerful units to dash across the battlefield to stab your White Mage in the back is what breaks Katar; +1 Move and 2H do not mix.

I propose removing +1 Move (and it's 15% W-Ev, probably down to 5%) not just from Katar, but from all knives. I suggest this because to me, the +1 Move aspect of Knives just seems like a bad attempt to make Knives viable, because it does more harm than good. Not all units appreciate +1 Move. Units that were supposed to stay back are now in the front, stabbing Kninjas (Kagesougi Ninjas = Kninjas) with their derpy Platina Knives. This can be built around, but the point is, +1 Move takes what would otherwise be a excellent weapon and sours it for many users and team strategies, most of which are more defensive oriented. Meanwhile, +1 Move for 2H knives and certain 2S knives, power up already powerful builds. Knives no longer need +1 Move anymore, it's just a old crutch now and they are perfectly viable on their own now. (Some of them could probably lose the 15% W-Ev, too)

Throwing Knife - Actually quite fine with +1 Move because of it's range will keep the user out of harm's way. It could use a W-Ev drop, maybe. Otherwise, don't touch it.

Dual Cutters - This one can lose the +Move and the Evade, especially given it's upcoming buff.

Repel Knife - An example of a perfectly good weapon squashed by the +1 Move curse. It's actually much more applicable as a defensive weapon than an offensive weapon. Making the enemy back off is more valuable for reversing/recovering momentum than gaining it because having to chase down some Hasted Coward complicates a offense, while it's a life saver on defense. Don't Act immune enemies are also of less consequence for defensive applications than offense. If a weapon of last resort fails to make the saving throw, then oh well better luck next time, while a offensive Repel Knifer running into a Don't Act Immune enemy means he's going to do more harm than good now. Overall it's a great weapon held back by it's yucky drawback and the fact it adds +1 Move shunts it into a offensive role. It can keep it's W-Ev however.

Mage Masher - Derp

Well it's not that bad. It's basically a MP Damage weapon. Used on a Female Ninja, and a little bit of Overwhelm, it can actually be pretty decent as my initial testing showed. Not great though, and if it dies, they I won't miss it too badly. It should lose W-Ev, but without a decent direction for it to move forward, we should just pass on touching the poor thing.

Platina Dagger - In the same boat as Repel Knife, except it's offensive applications have been more successful. As a result, removing it's +1 Move isn't as clean cut as Repel Knife. Overall, I think it should lose it because while it's +1 Move has it's offensive strategies, not having it would make it more applicable to everyone. It's a judgement call and I admit that. Definitely should lose some W-Ev however. (10%)

Main Gauche - Why is this even a 2H weapon? Out of all the knives pre-138, this was the most popular one for obvious reasons. It never needed the buff and it's perfectly fine as a evade booster.

Air Knife - Oh Air Knife, the fun times we had. In the quest to find Hitler's frozen head in Brazil, Air Krieg struck terror in the hearts of the agencies that tried to stop them.  Good times. Yeah, it's fine to make it into a Grand Cross Weapon. It's perfectly viable. *sigh*

RIP Air Knife

Nov 16, 2012-Arena 139

You made Knives worth paying attention to.

She will be missed.


If it becomes a single hand weapon, it doesn't need to lose W-Ev then, because now it has to compete with Ice Brand and Excalibur now. In fact, it could probably keep it's proc.

Katar - It is my sole believe that Katar isn't OP because of it's damage potential (but it doesn't help, even with a inferior formula, it's still Platina Sword+) but because of it's +1 Move lets it become way too invasive. However, I'm facing a dilemma here. I still like the idea of a offensive Knife with +1 Move. I would actually like it if Katar got split into two knives, both 2H. One would give +1 PA, and the other +1 Move. Probably not going to happen, so I would just suggest changing Katar to:
11 WP, +1 Move, 5 W-Ev
This takes some of the bite out of Katar without completely defanging it. I wanted to originally make it a 12 WP weapon and nothing else, but then it would lose out to Platina Sword. This configuration leaves it's high move melee capabilities or what I like to call 'backstabbing', function intact, but takes the edge off of it.

And that leaves me with

Orichalcum- My Katar proposal leaves people that want the +1PA/Move high and dry as a consequence. The only way I can possibly keep that function intact their for everyone will strike some as odd and some as function overloading.

Orichalcum: 9 WP, +1 PA/MA/Move, 0 W-Ev, No 2H/2S

It becomes a stat knife because it's what people use it for anyways. No one's going to miss 2H Orichalcums.


QuoteFrog: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 18 MP, Hit_F(MA+60), Add: Frog, 150 JP
I realise that Faith will be an easier status to make use of now that spellguns are being nerfed.  Accordingly, Faith-charged Frog spells will become a thing.  So, instead of boosting the Y value to make this skill more usable, let's lower CT.


Frog Spamming is already a thing because of Frog immunity is hard to get and Maiden's Kiss gets the triage boot to the face. I guarantee you a decent Frog team can roll most teams right now.

QuoteA) Cursed Ring--I have a rather creative solution to this problem.  In my testing vs. Doku's 2H thieves, I found that if units with undead and immune: crystal did not always revive in 3 turns, I would have won at least half my matches.  One particular match stuck out where I scored a technical victory but the CT timer on one of the undead thieves was 100 at 0 death counter and he revived and returned to win it all.  Instead of nerfing stats, why not the mechanic?  In other words, if a unit is undead and is immune to crystal, the chances of reviving when CT timer = -1 should be 50% rather than 100%.  Statistically, this averages to a cursed ring user reviving every 4 turns, but the uncertainty can gnaw on a more cautious player and make the more aggressive undead strategies untenable before a good defense.


I think that could work. It would encourage more diverse units than 'LOL SPEED/MOVE GANK RUSH DOWNS'. I still think it could lose +1 Speed so that Mage strats can work. Doing both would probably require a buff to compensate, but I'm not sure what besides removing the Fire Weakness...

QuoteReflect Gun

The reason why I wanted Coral Sword to have Add: Reflect was because it's Elemental property would let be used as a way to add Reflect to allies as well as enemies (I'm not sure if the AI can see procs, so I question if it'll be used a midcharger) and most importantly, let Mages and their allies block getting Reflected via Water immunity, lending credence to Jade Armlet's new Water Absorb property as a viable defensive accessory. If this Reflect Gun was non-elemental, it would screw Mages over harder than Coral Sword ever would have, because at least the defense option would have been there, at a range no less.

Yeah, this Reflect Gun, provided it gains Water, or if you want to be daring (and make Defense Ring more of a necessary Mage Defense Item than it already is), Ice, or Barren's Faith Gun.

Speaking of Faith, I was going to let this slide so I can hear you guys whine about it next version, but I'm going to be nice and prevent a disaster before it happens:

Gokuu Rod: Ice Elemental, 50% Innocent.

Regardless of what happens to the formula (except staying the same), Gokuu Rod is going to go from a novel way of pissing off mages, but held back by it's damage, to midcharging monster of 139 that you'll all hate. Same principle behind Coral Sword and Iron Fan, it's a team weapon that is perfectly thwartable by corresponding equips. It also makes a neat Main/Sub/Divine(?) Element package that pleases me and more importantly, ups those respective element's body counts in the Weapons Departments (especially Ice)

QuoteKagesougi becoming PA * 8


I like this, provided it still is a Weapon Range skill because I like a skill that works with Two Swords. It would cap Kage bullshit forever, because a lot of weapons got nerfed or are kept under a threshold because of that skill.

QuoteSave the Queen: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
Ragnarok: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, Always: Protect
These swords can be paired with perfumes to make super-tanky Paladins.  (e.g. A Paladin with one of these swords and a complementary perfume, Unyielding, and 40 Brave/Faith will cut all damage by roughly two-thirds.)   To balance this, such setups will have no evasion whatsoever.


Sure.

QuoteSlasher: 12 WP, 20 W-EV, Yes 2S
25 W-EV is a little too high for a 12 WP weapon that is dual-wieldable.  At 25 W-EV, dual-wielded slashers with mantles can reach 90% P-EV from the front.


Also it makes it not competitive with Parry Swords anymore, half the reason why Raven's proposal had them at 20% in the first place.

QuoteF) Similarly, Tsumakuzu does not need to conflict with Bullrush by also nulling haste.  INstead, it could easily be merged with Hokouton into an unevadable skill (1 Range, 1 AoE, 2 Vertical, 3 Directions, 12 MP, unevade, weapon damage)


Tsumakuzu is being changed because the AI will not use it for some reason. I swear it was used once, I just can't remember when it was...

I'm going to regret suggesting this but...

Bizen Boat: (PA+MA)/2 * Y

Why do this? Because it'll still allow for powerful Bizen Boating, but at the same time, all the rest of the Draw Outs (especially Chirijiraden use) will suffer for it, which translates to an inability to follow up on knocking out MP Pools with 180 Chiris, thus Bizen Missile types only create openings, not game enders. Bizen Boat should still have a Y value that will replicate Bizen's MP Damage, however, because now the units doing it will have to be more specialized for the job.

QuoteGiant Axe should be 11 WP and +1 PA/MA.  The reasoning here is a bit odd, but let's first explain what's wrong with this weapon.  Strengthen Earth + Earth gives it 12.5 effective WP, but the earth elemental seriously reduces its potential as many earth absorb and halve teams exist, so I'd rather use Slasher.  The WP is too low to justify grand cross (when you have air knife and excalibur).  Chiri covers the same niche on samurai, and geomancer, although able to boost some attacks with it, doesn't get a boost on Hell Ivy and Carve Model (the two most common terrains).  Boosting ninjitsu with this is equally awful as the best two ninjitsu classes (monk and squire) can't use this innately.  Hence, this weapon is second best at everything and no job can really usefully fuse any of the above offensive tactics into one class.  Thus, I propose this change to give it a niche with geomancer and Sm-M (with innate 2H).


I like.

Shit this is a long post.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 30, 2013, 03:55:15 am
I'm not really going to comment on too much on how to go about balancing knives because I'm not particularly good at balancing.  But I do think MageMashers, should be allowed to keep all it's traits precisely because of how lackluster it is.  Platina Dagger too.  While there's something of a focus on how potentially damaging it is, let's not forget how often it's a lackluster weapon too.  Platina Dagger is designed to be swingy.  I won't comment on Main Gauche, Orichalcum, Katar, Dual Cutters, or Air Knife. 

But I will say that "One Shotting" an enemy shouldn't be completely eliminated as a strategy. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 30, 2013, 06:20:10 am
Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 03:05:19 amIn fact, by removing it's natural predator, Always: Transparent, they'll be even stronger than ever, pissing everyone off even more.


We aren't removing Hidden Knife to the best of my knowledge.  Even if we did, there's Concentrate to fill its role.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 03:05:19 am
I propose removing +1 Move (and it's 15% W-Ev, probably down to 5%) not just from Katar, but from all knives. I suggest this because to me, the +1 Move aspect of Knives just seems like a bad attempt to make Knives viable, because it does more harm than good. Not all units appreciate +1 Move. Units that were supposed to stay back are now in the front, stabbing Kninjas (Kagesougi Ninjas = Kninjas) with their derpy Platina Knives. This can be built around, but the point is, +1 Move takes what would otherwise be a excellent weapon and sours it for many users and team strategies, most of which are more defensive oriented. Meanwhile, +1 Move for 2H knives and certain 2S knives, power up already powerful builds. Knives no longer need +1 Move anymore, it's just a old crutch now and they are perfectly viable on their own now. (Some of them could probably lose the 15% W-Ev, too)


What about strategies that want lots of Move?  That want to Bust a Move?  That want to Show Me Your Moves?  +1 Move is fine; if you're going for a low-mobility strategy, then equip any other weapon type.  If we remove the Movement bonus, weapon variation will suffer.

The problem is knives' ridiculous damage with Two Hands.  They're supposed to make units slippery and mobile, not turn them into wrecking machines.  That's why I'd like to nerf Orichalcum's and Katar's WP.

Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 03:05:19 am
If this Reflect Gun was non-elemental, it would screw Mages over harder than Coral Sword ever would have, because at least the defense option would have been there, at a range no less.


The reflect gun would heal on hit.  The only mages it will ever screw over is the user's own.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 12:11:57 pm
QuoteThe reflect gun would heal on hit.  The only mages it will ever screw over is the user's own.

Heal on hit, adding statuses? I forsee a problem here. To the best of my knowledge, heal on hit cannot add status.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 30, 2013, 01:55:28 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on July 30, 2013, 12:11:57 pm
Heal on hit, adding statuses? I forsee a problem here. To the best of my knowledge, heal on hit cannot add status.


Ah, is that so?  I have no idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dol on July 30, 2013, 03:04:21 pm
I dont know if this has been suggested before, but would a heavy armor helmet that gives Blind immunity be an option?  I know I've trashed a few of my grand cross team builds that would have been much more effective if I could have both a robe and blind immunity without defaulting to Angel Ring.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 30, 2013, 10:37:58 pm
Quote from: Dol on July 30, 2013, 03:04:21 pm
I dont know if this has been suggested before, but would a heavy armor helmet that gives Blind immunity be an option?  I know I've trashed a few of my grand cross team builds that would have been much more effective if I could have both a robe and blind immunity without defaulting to Angel Ring.

Cross Helmet+Diamond Armor.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Disagreements with the Proposal:
(I hate to open this can of worms, but it's clear these disagreements will probably widen if I don't explain myself.  All of the below disagreements presuppose my suggestions in the other thread for their rationale.  Since I'd rather not repeat myself, if any contradictions between the proposal and my previous thread or my words below arise, assume my stance is what I wrote rather than what is in the proposal.  Anything that doesn't contradict what I wrote previously that isn't mentioned below are changes I agree with, or at least see no harm in implementing.)

Quote
Short Edge's proc is already at 50%, so it is serving its role very well.  WP is dropped to 9 to compensate for its nasty synergy with spellguns, Draw Out, and so forth.

My 33% Oil proc on Short Edge was mostly my concession to people not of my playstyle (as was the 33% Slow proc on Heaven's Cloud), but if you all really want it at 50% and 1 less WP, I would gladly support the results.  Of course, my 33% suggestion was given under the assumption the Oil mechanics still cancel absorb, halve, and null.  Since I'd rather keep the latter effect (and make greased bolt somewhat threatening), if that causes an imbalance, a 33% Oil proc may be for the best at 10 WP.

QuoteIndeed, it is seldom used.  We are introducing Genji Helm (Strengthen: Wind, Earth) to help remedy both this and Heaven's Cloud.
Salty Rage is now Always: Berserk

I liked the old Genji Helm as I could create high move PAL or Sm with lethal damage who could then revive / be revived and function in another capacity.  The only reason why I retired my berserker team was that spellguns were too deadly at range.  If we take my range nerf (or your damage nerf to spellguns), I think Genji Helm would become viable again.  For this reason, I cannot support the latter change: it destroys all the flexibility associated with initial:berserk.  I'm not sure if FFM implemented the changes where berserk is supposed to grant you the right to react and evade, but unless he did, this change weakens the item.
Furthermore, the new Genji Helm is still a very niche item.  No Sm or PAL would use it over Chiri-katana except to boost the two weapons listed and even then, it's questionable if that's really better than Asura + Reraise Helm.
Lastly, that equipment change does not address the problem I raised with Kiku's proc requiring a totally different setup than the setup needed to boost Kiku's attack damage.  This is why I think reverting to the Grand Cross model for Kiku would have more general use.

Quote
Unfortunately, spellguns are never used under "normal conditions."  If players can boost spellgun damage to 1HKO territory, they invariably will.  In response, we're making spellguns cast Nether spells, which are weaker and cannot be boosted with Pilgrimage.

I actually have many good reasons not to run pilgrimage and/or overwhelm which would guarantee the 1HKO against less tanky non-mages.  Doing so means no MHPUP, 70 faith, and a gaping hole in either my magic defense or my status defense as I cannot run both reflect and shell on archer, chemist, or mediator.  It doesn't quite help that the three native gun classes all take second strike vs. a mage (9 SP vs. 8), meaning a more defensive setup mage or a projectile guard mage can stop my plans.
The reasons why the current metagame is still favoring the max-damage setup are unevade + unreflect + non-charged first strike at mage range + the ability to run a max damage setup alongside a HP, elem-absorb, and/or evade setup, which first-strike incapaciates / KOs frail units (especially mages) on small maps and has similarly lethal effects on large maps (due to pilgrimage) while retaining the ability to tank.  I really think that taking one of the three factors away is enough to make the risks sufficient for balance on non-small maps vs. non-mages.  That's why I propose 4 range and now am adding 2H (to put archer on the same level as mediator and chemist and kills the evasion setup max damage elem-gun archer), though I am aware mage teams will still face a fairly stiff counter, as will any slow team on a small map.
As for the nether gun proposal...if you all do that and don't retain current base damage levels, then 2H would not be needed, but the new guns will be as bad as they were before S6.  Honestly, I'd go back to using a stone gun except on the aforementioned evasion setup tank archer.

QuoteBloody Harp's WP is actually going down to 10.

The way I see it...Blood Harp is 12.5 WP if 10 WP while the other two harps at 12 WP + Effect are at 13-13.5 WP.  I proposed Blood Harp at 11 WP mostly as a means of parity.

QuoteI'm hesitant about this change.  Flare is too powerful for a 50% proc rate.  For example, on a semi-optimised setup (40-70 BrFa, 15 MA, MAtkUP), Flare will hit for 283~396 damage.  This practically makes the book 1HKO 50% of the time.

To be honest, so am I, but flare proc inherently will have that problem.  Anything not as unpredictably strong as at least 35-40% 1HKO chance will not be used at all.  For an equally shocking effect, I guess we could try something like a healing book with 33% quick chance?

Quote
There are already a few ways of getting around M-EV:

Your suggestions are quite valid, as I use many of those means myself.  I only proposed this secondary effect to cater to the players who want to run 4 damage mages.  However, I cannot agree with you on the assessment of circumventing M-EV as broken.  I don't think they'll become broken as a result of this(*), because the 4 mage attack still has too many counters.
Maybe it's just a difference of style, but for all my offensive teams, I assume I can counter evasion by my attacks or I can force the enemy into an evasion-less state.  Hence, I would consider the effect of Ignore: M-EV on my mages to be way less useful than Initial:Reflect, Strengthen: All, Absorb: Element X, or Always: Shell.  The only unit I'd seriously consider it for is a draw out unit, and even then, Initial: Reraise + Murasame + Overwhelm is probably better against the spread as ignoring M-EV is really only useful against teams like yours, mine, and Raven's.  Similarly, my defensive teams are built to be so solid on defense that ignoring M-EV isn't going to suddenly break their defense; in fact, I'd say without concentrate and items like this in the metagame, a team like LOSERS is nearly unbeatable.
Of course, if my above reasons lead you all to think such an effect is either too niche, too useless, or too polarizing, feel free to propose a better effect.
(*) I am implicitly assuming, of course, that the damage on Bizen Boat and spell guns remain unchanged and Refute stops charging.  If that is not the case, then yes, such an item would verge much closer to being broken.

Quote
For this reason, we are buffing them (just not back to 1.37 levels as you propose at the end of the quote).  The three Tons are being variegated:  Suiton ignores reflect and evasion but receives a damage nerf, Meiton does not trigger reaction abilities, and Fuuton receives a damage buff.

Tons are not comparable to Black Magic and Punch Art.  Black Magic and Punch Art require 70 faith and brave, respectively, so their users weaken themselves to damage of like types.  On the other hand, Tons require low faith, so their users are typically impervious to magic.  In other words, it's safer to use Tons than Black Magic or Punch Art.

1) I'll concede that I went too far here, as forcing 40 faith units to run reflect to block ninjitsu is a bit harsh.  The unlikeliness of that setup means ninjitsu only lost Y = 0.5 points of effectiveness from that.
2) That being said, I'd still say Ninjitsu in S6 is at most above-average, but not broken.  Neither AeroGP nor I won S6 despite having such powerful ninjitsu teams, and Avalanche beat me despite running two units with Initial:Innocent.
3) Even if adjusted Y = 10.5 for a UnFa + unevade + unreflect attack is too high, an adjusted Y = 8 spell (which is what you are currently suggesting) is much too low.  Even if you assume AoE is canceled out by MEV (which is a VERY generous assumption since average MEV is not high) on the equivalent mage Nether spell (i.e. Nether Water), Nether Water > Suiton because mages still have more XA.
4) The added security argument of 40 faith is self-defeating because the more ninjitsu damage becomes as a threat, the less safe 40 faith becomes and the more one is forced to run reflect, MEV, DEFUP or Protect.  Of course, of those, the latter two are clearly superior as they allow a 70 Fury setup.
5) Your changes didn't really fix the average Y; all you did to the average ninjitsu (Meiton with Y = 9) is add Anti-Counter.  There are two resulting problems:
A) The best -ton class is Monk, but from my experience, damage setup Mk / Nj with Shuriken really fears no reaction other than HP Restore, which I cannot really predict for.
B) If I also run Shuriken, then the AI will only use meiton when the enemy faith is low.  If we combine your monk and ninja changes, Mk / Nj will only use ninjitsu over monk skills when the enemy's brave is also low.  But if both of those are low, their reaction rate is correspondingly lowered, making the effect less useful.
6) As a compromise, here's what I suggest:
Fuuton, Y = 11, MEV, reflect, takes DEFUP (15 MP)
Meiton, Y = 10, MEV, unreflect, takes DEFUP (8 MP)
Suiton, Y = 9, unevade, unreflect, takes DEFUP (12 MP)

Quote
It's losing is Don't Act proc and having its MP cost increased for a start.  Merging it with Hokouton hasn't been considered.  Would it retain Hokouton's AoE?

After some more thought, the only thing Kagesougi would gain is a SP * 8 damage formula that takes martial arts as well as ATKUP; everything else is meant to remain the same (including the DA proc).  From the AI's perspective, as long as the HP flag is also retained, it will not use this skill unless it does more than weapon damage (which is likely impossible without martial arts); thus, Kagesougi will only be used as damage option on martial arts users with weapons, SP optimized, low Faith, magic gunners, healing weapon users. blood sword / lance / harp users vs. undead, climhazzard knife users, and bag users.  All of the above are really niche, near unusable, or martial arts / Kagesougi hampers the damage output or weapon proc.  Maximum damage is capped at [15 * 3/2] * 8 * 2 = 352 at 1 range, which should be fair enough given how poorly armored that ninja is.

Quote
Tsumazuku is being replaced with something much more useful: a ranged AoE skill that cancels both Haste and Regen.

I'm not sure Masamune is still that dominating.  My trials showed that one unit was stuck on masamune duty for most of the match unless he was fast, had a 1HKO, or I ran two masamune units.  In short, you either run Avalanche's masamune ninjas, my modified S5/S6 samurais (capable of heavy 1HKO weapon attacks and masamune), or double up on 8 SPD masamune spammers (like I did on my less creative teams and rather easy to counter teams).
That being said, given proper CT synchronization, your change is a very hard counter to masamune, haste, and yell teams, trapping them in a dead-loss loop.  I think only properly sync'd Haste2 teams can avoid this fate, and just only barely.
However, Raven's warning seems to apply here.  This seems too specialized, designed really to stop one skill (masamune), with incidental effects on other skills (haste, yell, nurse--though any decently armored paladin comes out on top here), and minimal effect other than chip damage on other skills (haste2, regen, etc.)  I still think my suggestion (giving Bullrush to squire as lots of damage + remove haste [AND regen, if you'd like] without recoil) + the new ninja skill may be more general.
For those of you confused by my notation, I'm essentially suggesting that tsumakuzu gets deleted and we create a new ninja skill that has the targeting range of a Tiamat's Triple Attack (i.e. 3 / 4 squares around the user), deals PA * WP damage, takes weapon elemental but not 2S/2H, and is unevadable.  It should cost 12 MP because I trade the 1 range of southern cross for unevadability (which is worth slightly more).

Quote
Hidden Knife SP bonus removal
Sasuke Knife deletion

Once Kagesougi is nerfed, the first nerf is utterly unnecessary.  I can understand someone being uneasy at a +1 SP item being 2Sable, but if that's the case, retaining Sasuke Knife shouldn't be a problem.
Quote
Iga / Koga elemental changes

Why is this necessary?  Isn't wind already one of the weakest of the elements in terms of weapons?  Or is it because thief hat too easily blocks the combo?  Considering that this is combo can deal ~390 damage at maximum power, is that really a bad thing?
Quote
Lionheart evasion bonus

Just as a minor quibbler (feel free to totally ignore this), but as I pointed out earlier, mages and physicals are nonequivalent objects.  Because mages have less HP on average, they need more PEV from weapons that boost their skills.  Hence, there's no need for exact parity between these swords and I'd probably like it better if there wasn't.
Quote
Save the Queen changes
Ragnarok changes
Persia changes
Cashmere changes

This is an awful idea.  I'd rather keep them at 16 WP (and the corresponding veils at 12) because they were balanced by Raven to deal exactly the same amount of damage (288 before fury calculations) at a max PA setup.  I still remember when Wiz pretty much made that equivalent setup back when veils had Always: Protect/Shell on them at 10 WP.  His nameless / slow dance spamming combination was so awful to watch and so hard to beat we were forced to nerf veils to initial: protect/shell.  I don't want to see a return to a similar nadir in Arena mechanics.
(By the way, the reason why a similar mechanic isn't broken on accessories is that steal:accessory has a much higher hit rate than weapon break and accessory slots have far more options, so the opportunity cost of running Always: X over boosting damage is higher on a non-tank setup).
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Excalibur changes
Defender changes

Giving Excalibur effectively 17 WP is just asking for trouble with grand cross.  Similarly, without the corresponding changes to Save the Queen and Ragnarok, Defender's changes make no sense.
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Axe changes

Killing the whole point of the battle axe seems overdone.  A low damage squad like Losers needs a way of finishing opponents (and mind you, the damage on Losers was so bad that the decap proc often didn't even accomplish that and would sometimes trigger HP Restore) and I think the metagame would be better off if there were means of KOs that you cannot block but don't happen very often, simply to give tanking teams vitality (without reducing the damage to the point where tanking becomes the only good strategy).   Mind you, Losers, like Y U SO DERP before it, should be beatable due to the introduction of new mechanics like concentrate and increased use of breaks.
Also, now that Knives are being totally changed away from being the 2H weapons and certain swords are getting nerfed, is there any reason why the Slasher needs any changes from the version in S7?
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Stone Gun changes

This makes no sense, really.  Maximum damage of 192 after ATKUP isn't broken, even if the damage is unevadable and you run an evasion + HP setup archer + warpath.  The bonuses are nice, but really are hardly stronger than the ninjitsu evasion bots I ran on Heresy (right after the Heretic Ring nerf).  I say this because my Heresy squires trade early game offense (of innocent) for late game offense (of warpath + 1st turn de-petrify) and back then, the maximum and starting damage of ninjitsu vs. stone gun is similar.  The fact that your squad may desert the stone gun archer on a small map and your first turn's offense is hampered is enough risk to justify keeping it at a late-game balance level similar to S6's ninjitsu because many teams will not get there alive.
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Gastofitis Changes

I certainly appreciate the massive you boost you are suggesting to Gastrofitis, but is this necessary?  I really think this weapon is being underused because of kagesougi + perseus bow, but both of those are being nerfed, so...I'm unsure on this one.
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Silver Bow change

I think the weapon we're trying to have it in parity with is a self-strengthening excalibur where we trade mage synergy for grand cross synergy (since both are 2H weapons).  Similarly, it must be competitive with spellguns (assuming my refusal to change their damage); hence, 13 WP should still be paired with +2 MA so mages are properly compensated for
A) Using EQ Ranged over MATKUP
B) Using Longbow over Spellgun
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Longbow and Perseus Bow changes

Thinking about it some more, I think the Longbow is being neglected.  +1 Move actually doesn't cut it, as except for first strike, archers have little need for more move (outside of item-bot setups, but +1 SP is better still).  I suggest instead +1 PA.  That way, the balance vs. the mythril bow is more apparent; +1 Range and +1 PA in the AI's hands is about the same as the first strike bonuses / item-bot synergies of +1 SP.  Instead, the perseus bow can keep 16 WP but no PA boost.
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Iron Fan changes

I'm not sure why Doku wanted this one, but I'm sure he can answer it better than me.
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P Bag change

I'm not sure why this needs changing, but if we making Quick Book instead of Flare Book, I don't think this will be necessary.
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Cross Helmet HP boost
MP boosts to all the 90 HP+ gears
HP boosts to all the +max stats gears

All these changes shift balance in the wrong direction.
1) The whole point of cross helm was to use MP costs on physical jobs as a limiter of how many times they could spam their skills.  In short, the cross helm previously granted crap HP bonuses because it was intended to force knights into accepting either subpar HP or insufficient MP.  Similar balance restrictions on archer and ninja were fundamentally why equips like Golden Hairpin and Green Beret retained their value despite being obviously outclassed.  This is why the only acceptable bonus to black hood and brigandine is more HP (unless FFM wants to code unbreakability to the items instead).
2) Similarly, adding more HP bonuses to +max PA/MA/SP gear essentially lessens the penalty for running a max-power setup, i.e. the risk of getting 1HKO'd in return.  You should risk a 1HKO if you run a 253 HP ninja whose sole purpose is to deal massive damage.
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Golden Hairpin nerf

This is entirely uncalled for considering that the only really dangerous units still using this are Barren's Koutetsu Draw OUt user (from Big Assault) and my holy spammer (from S6 / Raiders).  With the advent of the new Cursed Ring, however, these one-dimensional attack units now have fairly hard counters in undead foes (especially those with reflect) or increased M-EV in general.
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Headband and Monk changes

These go together.
As someone who used monks for most of my time playing Arena, I can tell you that they are a very steady class capable of dealing hard to stop damage, BUT have serious limitations.
A) Monks are the only physical class that play like wizards in that they are completely skill dependent and utterly shut down by berserk (unless you want to lower your damage output or HP by not equipping a bag or by equipping the Chakra Ribbon, which is useless outside of Grand Cross sets).  Of course, the monk trades instant cast for AoE (on the most part), and being blocked by PEV (which is higher than MEV on average) for having no MP cost.
B) Monks cannot tank well without sacrificing damage or variety due to the high Fury requirement to deal damage + the total lack of evasion from their weapons + no hats (so no thief hat for elemental defense + SP stacking and only 11 effective PA since no twist headband).
C) Monks are very poor participants in any kind of elemental healing (the most effective kind) outside of earth slash, which does not heal themselves.  Their PA makes them fair users of grand cross, but the output is still pretty bad without kikuichimoji being what it was in S6 or excalibur.  Another idea is southern cross + chaos blade or southern cross / new ninja triple attack PA * WP skill + perseus bow (after nerfs, or I'd obviously be suggesting kagesougi) / gastrofitis , which deals more raw damage with some range, but your monk won't last as long.
D) 9 SPD monks are a blessing and a curse.  9 SPD gives a hasted monk's effective 11 SPD and the ability to jump on 8 SPD units as well as dangerous first-strike attacks on enemy 8 SPD units + healing / revive (assuming you're on perfectly flat terrain, of course) of ally 8 SPD units who'll then immediately get a turn, but unless you run the full offensive setup, you won't score a KO.  Then the curse of 9 SPD becomes apparent; Monk is often dependent on HP REstore to survive attacks from attacking 10 SPD heavy offense (especially archers) or a 8 SPD charging mage, 2H paladin or samurai, or jumping lancer.  This is why the 4 monk attack is suicide (while the 4 wizard, archer, or even lancer attack is passable).
E) As someone who did spam battle song + monk, I will tell you that the threat of the quadratic monk formula is overhyped.  Without innate:martial arts, monk is not as a strong as it's made out to be.  An immobile bard + 3 monks is an absolute failure because monk has 9 SP and you can only have 2 users of HP Restore and MHPUP / Chakra / Revive.  (That didn't even make it out of my testing phase, though I think I may need to retest with the existence of the new cursed ring.)  Two immobile bards + 2 monks seems plausible until you run into a team that has a user with DA / berserk / DS all on the same unit or can attack for high magical damage and then you'll be totally wrecked.  Hence, the only reasonable strategy is 2 monks with sing alongside two 2H units (i.e. my Test B team), but that isn't a surefire path for accumulating PA because the monks will charge into combat rather than sing all the time (but if you don't allow the monks to do that, you're really fighting 2v4 with random damage axes and limited revival ability).  Granted, I haven't tested all the permutations and if you can create a version with one immobile bard that doesn't fail horribly against a well-built 4 man attack, I'll revise my view (but I suspect with the pending Kagesougi, Perseus Bow, Cursed Ring changes, it probably won't happen).
F) Monk's chief draw as a secondary on classes like Squire, Dancer, and Lancer is that it provides healing, revival, and specialty damage all in one package on a class capable of matching a monk's PA.  Earth Slash stacks well on an earth elemental team.  Spin Fist on Squire or Lancer functions like a physical equivalent of a draw out and covers holes in the unit's skillset.  Repeating Fist provides a reliable way to hammer opponents.  PA Save actually only somewhat works on the lancer because all the other ones have 70 fury and < 300 HP, making it very hard to tank while dealing enough initial damage to match the monk due to the quadratic damage formula (making HP Restore + Cherche a better choice), which is one of the reasons I switched to Mk / Bd in the first place.
With these as the base points of reference, I think monk is actually pretty average.  Let's go through the changes:
1) Giving monk MP costs on all his offensive skills forces too many other changes down the line.  This is not because of the necessary balancing act that will now result in creating a monk (as monk's MP reserves are sufficient and monk has chakra), but because doing makes it impossible to predictably counter bizen boat users by physical skills (which are typically more varied and harder to block than physical weapons on a unit basis).  SA's current research in AI shows the AI will consider MP breaking not just as a midcharging skill, but as a precaution against units who have a majority of skills that are either silenceable or require MP (I forget which).  In short, giving monk skills MP cost essentially makes nerfing bizen boat's output (rather than its AoE or even its evadability) necessary.  Since I'd rather give bizen boat the targeting of southern cross but leave everything else as is, monk needs to at least have 2 skills without MP costs.
2) One change that does greatly benefit monk is making the monk attacks PA * Y because it increases the damage on the monk subclass (because you all scaled the damage as if PA = 17-18) and thus, its use outside of Lancer / Squire / Dancer.  Adding elemental is even more useful since it increases team synergy.  However, I do agree that if spin fist and RF were PA * Y, they'd need a MP cost simply for parity with ninjitsu (if nothing else).
3) However, Mk / Nj should have the greatest possible synergy possible (meaning the elements between the two should not overlap to make the combined options harder to elementally block) and changing the elemental on earth slash actually counts as a nerf as the easiest option for boosting a monk's attack is earth clothes, killing a decent team strategy in using a permutation of Earth Dragon + Quake + Kiku + Earth Slash.  Although somewhat obvious and decently strong, the above synergy really isn't broken because the enemy can block it with float and disrupt it with oil (assuming no changes to oil).  Similarly, making Repeating Fist any elemental counts as a nerf (especially earth elemental, which is easily blocked by float) because you're saying that there exists a way to completely block the damage when the whole point of the attack was to guarantee physical damage at close range.  I'd rather risk HP Restore or Damage Split than lose the very basis of why the monk class is important (the ability to threaten steady damage that can be lessened, but not entirely stopped).
4) The headband changes make no sense.  The old headbands, although slightly unoriginal, serve their purpose well.  The 80 / 80 headband is perfect for ninjitsu and cover fire monk.  The 80 / 0 headband was useless for me, but I'm not a defensive player.  The 70 / 0 headband was perfect for grand cross.  The fact Null: Innocent is even being suggested now that Ninja gets Heretic and Mk / Nj is a good physical damage combination shows the lack of understanding of how monk works in the design of the headbands.
5) Given all of the above, I think this would be more fair:
Spin Fist: (Old Formula)
Repeating Fist (Old Formula)
Secret Fist (Old Formula)
Freezing Fist: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_B(PA*9), Ice Element, 250 JP--NOTE: This formula is the Squire formula for bullrush and both should take Martial Arts.
Earth Slash: 5 Range, Linear, 2 Vert, 0 CT, 12 MP, Dmg_B(PA*8), Earth Element, 350 JP--NOTE: This formula is the Squire formula for bullrush and both should take Martial Arts.
...all other skills following the proposal...
Focus Band (80 / 70; Null: Berserk---removes the key weakness of Mk / Ninjitsu or Sing or Cover Fire)
Chakra Band (70 / 40; Null: Blind, Slow, Poison, Silence, Undead, Charm, Oil---removes the key weakness of weapon Mk [blind], Mk / PAL [oil, blind and in particular, kiyomori] )
Choice Band (40 / 0; Null: DM, DA, Death, DS, Frog, Petrify, Stop, Sleep---gives Monk a definite role as THE anti-mediator / anti-stall offense class and removes all the long-range means of incapacitating a 2S monk with stigma magic
Notice that I didn't really address any of monk's other inherent weaknesses.  This is intentional as I intend to retain that disparity as a balance tool; i.e. by trading his right to evade hits and his right to adequately defend, he gains the right to deal steady and somewhat threatening damage without worrying too much about status.  Choice Band's reduced HP bonus means that anti-mediator monk on a full PA, 2S set is running < 300 HP, which is standard for all other unit physical attack units and should prevent serious balance issues.
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Silk Robe changes

Mages barely have enough HP as is.  Nor are paladins and lancers so broken that an extra 5 HP is turning a 2HKO into a 3HKO in the average case.
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Power Wrist changes

I prefer mine as 15 P/M-EV makes units more adaptable vs. the spread rather than only blocking physicals.
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Defense Ring, Jade Armlet swaps

I really don't care what you call these items, but Absorb: Water needs to be paired with Null: Silence, Berserk, ??? because Raven and I meant for that to be the armlet to encourage the use of water elemental on wizard and scholar (and create the conditions for team-wide water absorb) + give casters a means of blocking their two biggest obstacles in one piece of gear.  That core of effects shouldn't be taken apart as it's not even remotely broken (especially if oil is left unchanged and so many people fear the semi-permanence of silence and berserk).
If we call Defense Ring: Absorb: Water, Null: Silence, Berserk, Stop, then Jade Armlet should be Null: Ice, Dead, DS, Petrify, Sleep, Slow.
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Wish Range increase

I fear it may be stronger than PD now.  Can we please make this skill line of sight / direct so PD isn't entirely overshadowed, or was that the point of Squire (an odd mix of above average and underpowered skills that properly belong in other skillsets) in the first place?
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Auto Potion decrease

Although I argued for no more than 70 when it was first re-released into Arena, 80 hasn't exactly broken the game either.  With Mime now able to absorb Lore (from gaining equips and all), would it really be a good idea to do this?
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Hawkeye MP increase

Since I'd rather not change oil, this can rise as high as 18.
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Cure4 healing decrease

What is the reason for this?  The original Cure4's healing effect should not be decreased, as it's still the best way to heal a high faith unit through reflect, which on a defensive magical status team, or a SC'd faith rod team, are staples of the defense.
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Summoner changes

I think Titan doesn't need the change as it was created as part of the same "group" as Leviathan and Salamander (rather than the same group as Ifrit / Shiva / Ramuh) and the idea was that +1 AoE + 20% Status = 5/4x power increase.
Similarly, Bahamut I think was supposed to be the summoner equivalent of flare, and thus, has the same charge time, but I'm mostly indifferent here as I prefer Zodiac / odin + mime.
It should be noted that the proc on Silf is 20%Add: DA, DM, OR Silence.
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Bad Luck changes

Quit taking weapons from the stall teams.  Bad Luck as it originally stood was fine and unique because it had the chance of KOing someone or stopping them, two effects you rarely see (and thus, rarely prepare for), but the other effects were mostly situational (and thus, the 33% rate of outright messing someone up + 66% chance of a conditional effect stopped it from being too unfair).  Although the new Bad Luck is certainly more likely to proc something useful, it's also too similar to Mediator (and thus, much easier to block, especially with my monk changes) and doesn't have the coverage oil, silence, slow, and dead provided against a variety of units.
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Asura: No longer ignores allies

With mime being boosted, this may not actually be a good change.  Yes, it makes fire absorb teams stronger, but they already had large AoE fire spells from wizard for healing.  Furthermore, this change actually makes Asura less usable on mimes as Asura was the primary mimed draw out (after masamune, murasame, and muramasa) precisely because it didn't harm allies.  Lastly, we create a draw out (asura) that is outclassed in every other way by all the other draw outs (koutetsu has more range, chiri has more damage, muramasa has more damage + proc for less range, heaven's cloud has a proc, etc).
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Refute changes
Bizen Boat changes
Heretic on Ninja
Misogi addition to ninja
Preach
Solution

1) Maybe the person who designed this can explain this better, but other than MP restraints, why does Misogi get rid of Faith if Heretic does the same thing?  Furthermore, what does this do that stigma magic, refute, or heal can't do (and in particular, why was silence chosen when none of the ninjitsu skills have anything to do with silence) other than the fact ninja no longer needs a Squire / Mediator / Monk secondary?  In short, Misogi seems to be a move that was just stuck in the ninja skillset for no reason.
2) What if we gave ninja the Solution skill rather than either Heretic or Misogi?  Of course, the formula would probably be adjusted to (SP + 70)% with a MP cost of at least 5, but I think that would be an acceptable way of creating a "new midcharge" of mages (one that very few mages are prepared to block, shuts down the faith rod bonus, exposes them to -ton).  This is balanced by the fact it doesn't entirely prevent their spell from going through, so spell procs may still occur, making it the weakest of the midcharging methods and thus allowing for the nerfs to both Refute and Bizen Boat to proceed.  Otherwise, I fear that nerfing both Bizen Boat and Refute without giving Solution to a class that spams it effectively will give mages too much leeway.  My thoughts on how to nerf Bizen Boat (and how not to) have already been noted.  Mediator cannot spam solution effectively because it has far more effective choices in DA, Sleep, and Stop (recently added) and mediator derives no skillset synergy for doing so.
3) Faith has the use of boosting an ally's spell or weakening an enemy's magic defense, but the AI really does not know how to use the latter proactively.  To address the latter issue, can we make it a proc on dia?  We already have the blind proc off grand cross, bad luck, and kagesougi; no need to repeatedly spam it.
That being said, we do not need to delete preach because the AI will use it if
A) 9-10 SPD lore or haste2 user doesn't complete the spell before the turn of an ally 9 SPD mediator.
B) 8 SPD flare or bahamut (at 7 CT) user does not complete the spell before the turn of an ally 9-10 SPD mediator with haste.  In fact, it's the latter that forces preach to remain on the mediator job because once refute no longer cancels charging, it can be used by the mediator to tune up the caster by refute (if the caster is DA'd or silenced) or preach (if the caster is fine).
Of course, this means preach needs a hit chance of (MA + 70)% to ensure reliability.
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Last Song / Dance boosts

Now that mime is a viable class with its own equips, I really do not think this is a good idea.
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Status Changes

This requires a good deal of ASM hacking, but aside from that:
1) The nerf to oil's effect neuters the entire idea of blocking a team's elemental synergy to only blocking items like white robe and thief hat.
2) Poison and Regen aren't really broken, mind you.  I don't see Kiyomori or Poison or Regen spam being any more popular now than it was in S6.
3) Berserk and Silence should not be as much a concern for mages now that at least one piece of gear nulls both with a decent team synergy effect and 100% silence weapons are removed.  Berserk and Blind similarly shouldn't bother anyone unduly now that
A) We aren't nerfing spellgun damage.
B) Monk related changes
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 01, 2013, 05:58:00 am
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I liked the old Genji Helm as I could create high move PAL or Sm with lethal damage who could then revive / be revived and function in another capacity.  The only reason why I retired my berserker team was that spellguns were too deadly at range.  If we take my range nerf (or your damage nerf to spellguns), I think Genji Helm would become viable again...  Furthermore, the new Genji Helm is still a very niche item. 


The Genji Helm is about making Heaven's Cloud (Draw Out) worth using, and making Samurai worth using for Draw Out in general. 

There is already Salty Rage for Auto Berserk.  It's better to add a new niche than duplicate an existing one.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
No Sm or PAL would use it over Chiri-katana except to boost the two weapons listed and even then, it's questionable if that's really better than Asura + Reraise Helm.


C Bag + Genji Helm is going to be more powerful than Chirijiraden + Circlet.  And yeah, there's also boosting of Heaven's Cloud and Kikuichimoji.  That's two good reasons in my book.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Lastly, that equipment change does not address the problem I raised with Kiku's proc requiring a totally different setup than the setup needed to boost Kiku's attack damage.  This is why I think reverting to the Grand Cross model for Kiku would have more general use.


The Quake proc exists to add a little bonus damage on top of what is already a powerful weapon.  It's like Ice Brand's Ice 2 proc.  I don't think it's ever been about maximising attack and proc damage concurrently.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I actually have many good reasons not to run pilgrimage and/or overwhelm which would guarantee the 1HKO against less tanky non-mages.  Doing so means no MHPUP, 70 faith, and a gaping hole in either my magic defense or my status defense as I cannot run both reflect and shell on archer, chemist, or mediator.


Unfortunately, you are not everyone, FDC.  Max damage spellguns are prevalent.  There's little need to cover holes in your defense when you make the opposing team spend all its time healing.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
As for the nether gun proposal...if you all do that and don't retain current base damage levels, then 2H would not be needed, but the new guns will be as bad as they were before S6.  Honestly, I'd go back to using a stone gun except on the aforementioned evasion setup tank archer.


Yeah, it's not going to be a showstopper anymore, and that's the point.  No weapon with innate concentration should be crippling its targets with every use.  That being said, it will indeed be more useful than 1.37 guns:


I mean, I went pretty far with a Blast Gun Chemist in S1, and I had to cover the Chemist's 70 faith with Setiemson for it.  If Blast Gun used Unbrave, I could have kept his faith lower.

As for comparison to Stone Gun, spellguns can also be used on absorption teams, whereas Stone Gun cannot.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
M-EV-ignoring accessory


My complaint is that an accessory that ignores M-EV, and grants 1 MA to boot, is just too good.  We want to give people more reasons to invest in M-EV, not fewer.  M-EV is one of the most trusted counters to status magic.  Create this accessory, and I guarantee that we'll see Faith Rod + Magic Concentrate units with Short Charge frogging and sleeping everyone to death.  Draw Out certainly doesn't need buffing, either.

This isn't about parity with other accessories.  This is about common sense.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
2) That being said, I'd still say Ninjitsu in S6 is at most above-average, but not broken.  Neither AeroGP nor I won S6 despite having such powerful ninjitsu teams, and Avalanche beat me despite running two units with Initial:Innocent.


AeroGP didn't make it very far because he went super-meta against Tons, the very abilities whose threat you are downplaying.  As for your team, if memory serves, you made it quite far.  Wasn't your team's weakness defense, anyway?  I remember your sole raise 2 user was a 17 MA scholar.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
4) The added security argument of 40 faith is self-defeating because the more ninjitsu damage becomes as a threat, the less safe 40 faith becomes and the more one is forced to run reflect, MEV, DEFUP or Protect.  Of course, of those, the latter two are clearly superior as they allow a 70 Fury setup.


I don't follow.  Investing in 70 Faith makes you susceptible to other 70 Faith setups, too, and there are a lot more spells with Faith formulae than Unfaith formulae.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
5) Your changes didn't really fix the average Y; all you did to the average ninjitsu (Meiton with Y = 9) is add Anti-Counter.


You can only use one Ton at a time, right?  If you are against teams with no wind resistance and you use Fuuton, that's a Y buff of 1.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
A) The best -ton class is Monk, but from my experience, damage setup Mk / Nj with Shuriken really fears no reaction other than HP Restore, which I cannot really predict for.


Yeah, the Meiton buff is the weakest of the three.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
B) If I also run Shuriken, then the AI will only use meiton when the enemy faith is low.  If we combine your monk and ninja changes, Mk / Nj will only use ninjitsu over monk skills when the enemy's brave is also low.


You're assuming the Monk will invest his JP in both Punch Art and Ninjutsu.  I don't think there's enough JP for that to begin with.  Even if there is, I'd say the Ninjutsu serves a role: taking down tanky 40 BrFa teams.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Kibaku Fuda stuff


Kibaku Fuda's optimised damage is ~160.  In addition, it will become Ninjutsu's sole AoE ability.  That makes it not-so-specialised, in my opinion.  Alas, we must wait to see how well the AI uses it.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Once Kagesougi is nerfed, the [nerf to Hidden Knife] is utterly unnecessary.


Hidden Knife was a problem long before 1.38 Kagesougi.  It is used in almost every two-sword setup, and it is the sole reason why Ninja never bother to equip Concentrate.  This nerf has been a long time coming.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Why [are Iga/Koga knife changes] necessary?  Isn't wind already one of the weakest of the elements in terms of weapons?  Or is it because thief hat too easily blocks the combo?  Considering that this is combo can deal ~390 damage at maximum power, is that really a bad thing?


I think this is Raven's change.  I think it is indeed because of Thief Hat.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
[Save the Queen and Ragnarok changes are] awful idea.


Noted.  Do you have a better proposal for Save the Queen and Ragnarok?  They aren't exactly making waves.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Giving Excalibur effectively 17 WP is just asking for trouble with grand cross.


The change is to make Excalibur useful for something other than Grand Cross.  The current Excalibur deals less damage than Chaos Blade.  What's more, Excalibur does not dispel buffs on hit like Chaos Blade.

I didn't think the change is such a problem given that Ice Brand + Kaiser Plate is just as powerful  and adds M-EV on the side. 

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
[The Stone Gun nerf] makes no sense, really.  Maximum damage of 192 after ATKUP isn't broken, even if the damage is unevadable and you run an evasion + HP setup archer + warpath.  The bonuses are nice, but really are hardly stronger than the ninjitsu evasion bots I ran on Heresy (right after the Heretic Ring nerf). 


(Maximum damage is actually 211 (70v70 Br), but regardless:) What other weapon deals this much unevadable damage from 6 range on a class with 9 SP, all the while requiring no stat maximisation?  None.  The closest comparison is Ultimus Bow (214 damage at 70v70 Br), and that requires Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, and Bracer.  Of course, you get no shield, either.

There isn't much to gain comparing the damage to 1.37 Ninjutsu, given that Ninjutsu was nerfed for precisely the same reason.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
[Silver Bow] must be competitive with spellguns (assuming my refusal to change their damage); hence, 13 WP should still be paired with +2 MA so mages are properly compensated for


Differences about spellguns notwithstanding, making the weapon useable on mages is one thing.  Making the weapon not break the game is another.  Looking at the math, +2 MA will make a 40% Cast: Holy Silver Bow overwhelmingly powerful.  Here are optimised setups:

Male Archer
70 BrFa, 9 SP, 14 PA, (4+2) MA, Holy Strengthening, Attack UP
Weapon+Proc: 292~409
Average: 239~335

Male Bard
70 BrFa, 8 S, 8 PA, (16+2) MA, Holy Strengthening
Weapon+ Proc: 375~531
Average: 212~298

Holy Bow's closest competitor is Ultimus Bow:

Male Archer
70 Br, 9 SP, 16 PA, Attack UP
Weapon: 200~281

Keep in mind Archers have an easier time running max offense setups, since they fire from a distance.

Even without the +2 MA, Holy Bow is still stronger than Ultimus Bow.  I'm inclined to drop Holy Bow's WP even further, to 12, to keep longbows balanced.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) The whole point of cross helm was to use MP costs on physical jobs as a limiter of how many times they could spam their skills.  In short, the cross helm previously granted crap HP bonuses because it was intended to force knights into accepting either subpar HP or insufficient MP.


And so armor classes equip robes or make effective use of Absorb/Restore MP instead.  Cross Helm is not worth the HP and status-resistance penalty.  It is getting buffed on the observation that it is never used.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
2) Similarly, adding more HP bonuses to +max PA/MA/SP gear essentially lessens the penalty for running a max-power setup, i.e. the risk of getting 1HKO'd in return.  You should risk a 1HKO if you run a 253 HP ninja whose sole purpose is to deal massive damage.


This is a good point.  I'm willing to scratch the HP boost from Twist Headband and Holy Miter if this motion proves popular.

There has been an overwhelming opinion that Secret Clothes needs its buff, however.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am[The Golden Hairpin nerf] is entirely uncalled for considering that the only really dangerous units still using this are Barren's Koutetsu Draw OUt user (from Big Assault) and my holy spammer (from S6 / Raiders).


Actually, it's been called for for at least a year, and so it exists.  Golden Hairpin trumps Holy Miter hard, especially when using Light/Dark elements.  Would you not agree that +50 MP, +10 HP, and Holy+Dark Strengthening is worth 1 point of MA?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
4) The headband changes make no sense.


Give The Damned some credit, man.  He's right in observing that people either use the 80 HP/ 80 MP headband for MP or the 70 HP headband for superior status resistance.  The third headband is never used.  They have been balanced to encourage use of all three.

Instead of designing headbands to serve as hard counters to specific setups, how about we distribute their attributes across all three so that they are useful in many sitations?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I prefer [my Power Wrist change] as 15 P/M-EV makes units more adaptable vs. the spread rather than only blocking physicals.


And I prefer mine because it leaves PA classes (the ones who will use this) exposed to magic.  Mixed P/M-EV is the duty of mantles in my opinion.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
If we call Defense Ring: Absorb: Water, Null: Silence, Berserk, Stop, then Jade Armlet should be Null: Ice, Dead, DS, Petrify, Sleep, Slow.


Fine with me.  The point is that the current Defense Ring nulls too much and the current Jade Armlet nulls too little.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
I fear [Wish] may be stronger than PD now.


That's fine with me.  Phoenix Down costs half the JP, never misses, and is on a skillset that heals and cleanses status ailments as well.  I assure you that people won't jump from Item to Basic Skill just for Wish.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
What is the reason for this?  The original Cure4's healing effect should not be decreased, as it's still the best way to heal a high faith unit through reflect, which on a defensive magical status team, or a SC'd faith rod team, are staples of the defense.


And it will still be the best way to heal through reflect.  I'd rather pull off a 250+ heal than attempt a 300+ heal and get midcharged.  Often the 300+ heal heals more than necessary, besides.  If you still want the super-big heals, you can painlessly substitute Short Charge for Magic Attack UP, as the new Cure 4's CT is equal to the old Cure 4's CT with Short Charge.

At any rate, Cure 4 is still going to fulfill its original purpose, so I don't see where the beef is.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Although the new Bad Luck is certainly more likely to proc something useful, it's also too similar to Mediator (and thus, much easier to block, especially with my monk changes)


Just a minor point, but please don't discount present changes by invoking personal changes you propose in the same post.  These changes are listed without yours in mind, after all.

Actually, I can see myself doing this, so I'm not one to judge.

That said, I have no comment about the Bad Luck changes.  Would the person who made it like to comment?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 amI'm not sure why [P Bag] needs changing, but if we making Quick Book instead of Flare Book, I don't think this will be necessary.


Priest smacks enemy with bag.
Bag deals 5 damage.
Enemy counter attacks with dual-wielded swords.
Priest dies.

It also assists the use of difficult-to-use spells, such as Solution.  Everyone can use bags; not everyone can use books.

Case in point: Just today in a match featuring Barren against reinoe, Barren's Mediator chose to slash with a knife, and thus waste her turn, rather than use Mimic Daravon at a critical moment.  If this Mediator had a P Bag equipped, she would have invariably used Mimic Daravon.   

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) Maybe the person who designed [the new Ninjutsu skills] can explain this better, but other than MP restraints, why does Misogi get rid of Faith if Heretic does the same thing?


Certainly.  Heretic is not used to get rid of Faith proactively, as far as I know.  Misogi, on the other hand, can get rid of it incidentally when cleansing other status effects such as Poison.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 amFurthermore, what does [Misogi] do that stigma magic, refute, or heal can't do (and in particular, why was silence chosen when none of the ninjitsu skills have anything to do with silence)


Misogi keeps the ninja from wasting turns healing party members.  The ninja is an offensive unit.  With Misogi, he keep himself, and only himself, healthy.  This sustains offense as efficiently as possible.

Also, it cleanses silence lest MA units care to use Misogi as well.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) The nerf to oil's effect neuters the entire idea of blocking a team's elemental synergy to only blocking items like white robe and thief hat.


And the current oil neuters the entire idea of blocking elements in the first place.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
3) Berserk and Silence should not be as much a concern for mages now that at least one piece of gear nulls both with a decent team synergy effect and 100% silence weapons are removed.  Berserk and Blind similarly shouldn't bother anyone unduly now that
A) We aren't nerfing spellgun damage.
B) Monk related changes


The jury's still out on these ones, isn't it?

Edit: Some Monk stuff now that I found more time

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
E) As someone who did spam battle song + monk, I will tell you that the threat of the quadratic monk formula is overhyped.


View it from another angle: The quadratic formula makes Punch Art toothless on every class other than Monks.  It's going linear to help classes that don't have 13 base PA.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
1) Giving monk MP costs on all his offensive skills forces too many other changes down the line.  This is not because of the necessary balancing act that will now result in creating a monk (as monk's MP reserves are sufficient and monk has chakra), but because doing makes it impossible to predictably counter bizen boat users by physical skills ...


Plain old physical attacks counter Bizen Boat nicely.

Anyway, Bizen Boat is... a problem for many things, to say the least.  I think it's better to solve this by changing Bizen Boat.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
changing the elemental on earth slash actually counts as a nerf as the easiest option for boosting a monk's attack is earth clothes, killing a decent team strategy in using a permutation of Earth Dragon + Quake + Kiku + Earth Slash.


The nerf is intentional.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Repeating Fist any elemental counts as a nerf (especially earth elemental, which is easily blocked by float) because you're saying that there exists a way to completely block the damage when the whole point of the attack was to guarantee physical damage at close range.


This is also intentional.  Powerful unblockable attacks are unfair unless they have a serious drawback.  For example, Flare has a CT of 7 and an MP cost of 40; guns have weak damage.  Making Repeating Fist earth element gives players a way to defend themselves. 

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 12:07:45 am
Freezing Fist: 3 Range, 0 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 10 MP, Dmg_B(PA*9), Ice Element, 250 JP--NOTE: This formula is the Squire formula for bullrush and both should take Martial Arts.


This isn't bad in itself, but The Damned won't be happy to see a Wind elemental attack bite the dust.  This also breaks the synergy Punch Art would have with Chirijiraden (and Genji Helm if it goes through).

Similarly, I won't be happy to see a Water elemental attack bite the dust, as this element is underrepresented at the moment (even among weapons, and even after the introduction of Black Magick Water).[/list]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
I really hate arguing, but I think this argument won't end for a while because we don't seem to agree on what equips and thus, the rest of the game should look like.

I've noted two problems with how a lot of people reason on here about items (myself included).  It often leads to unnecessarily extreme changes.

1) Direct comparisons with other items rather than a holistic evaluation of the metagame, especially other items of the same equipment type.
2) If no one is using it, it needs a buff.  If it makes some choices irrelevant on some classes or too many people are using it, it needs a nerf.

This one is addressed more towards you, Gaignun (and the Damned / Malroth, too, I think).
3) We clearly have a different idea of what is balanced.  Given FFT's base mechanics and how the AI thinks, I think FFT Arena is most balanced when
Optimized Offense < Defensive Hard-Counter < Offensive Anti-Counter < Defensive Soft Counter or Marginal Tricks
A) A defensive hard counter is something that induces a binary effect, i.e. you hit or you don't, you are reflected / absorbed or you're not, etc.  It's debatable whether or not elemental halve belongs here because although the "miss" effect (i.e. halving an elemental attack) is obviously not as restrictive as absorbing or nullifying an attack, the AI still considers it damage and thus will waste more moves.  In other words, if an archer with an ice bow faces white robe vs. santa outfit, he'd nearly always attack for crap in the first case while almost always use arm aim or armor break in the second.
B) Offensive Anti-Counters are meant to be subpar offensive choices whose value mostly exist in crushing a specific defensive hard-counter or a set of defensive counters.  As long as all offensive anti-counters have real conditions attached to the unit or the team, have unsustainable costs, harm the user's team synergy, or don't circumvent everything, they cannot be broken.  This, Gaignun, is why I don't think making ninjitsu unevadable is broken (or Magic Concentrate), or having oil totally negate elemental hard counters.  Of course, I'm willing to compromise, but only to the degree that it still follows the above pattern.
C) Defensive Soft Counter is typically a wide application ability that typically can reduce all the damage from a class, but not so much that it changes the AI's basic decision tree.  Examples include Protect / Shell / Reraise / MADEF / DEFUP / Unyielding.  Typically, the support / accessory version of these skills are simply more permanent versions of what players can inflict.  Marginal tactics are those that technically would be hard-counters but only block one narrow class of attacks, such as finger guard, maintenance, ranged guard, etc.  I did not include reflect because Reflect blocks most skills on all non-summoner mage jobs and is a key component in keeping high faith + low HP casters alive.

As a result of the above, I'm naturally going to come to different conclusions on items.
4) I'd rather a niche item that solidly has a home in that niche, than a general use item that is second best at everything.  Any items meant to be a general use must have bonuses better than the niche items when applied outside their niche, but have a serious drawback either in the sunk cost or in the exaggeration of its drawbacks.

Of course, the spillover to team design and game balance is equally apparent.
5) I prefer units to be multifunctional and independent.  The idea of one unit being blockable by an enemy setup that must be dealt with by my other units is anathema, as is the idea that a team works better when only a few units run only the offense and the rest strictly mind the defense.  Of course, if a certain setup is really powerful, I'd be willing to make exceptions and test things, but in general, my ideal team is one where my team members are mostly interchangeable parts on offense against all but the most solid of defenses.  Hence, my basic demand for the sum offense on a unit is that it is varied, has a baseline move that I can rely on in nearly all situations (or some combination that functions like the equivalent of such a move) and is powerful against the spread; this is much more important than having a unit or an attack that is maximal at doing one type of attack, but subsequently easy to counter.  Offense here does not mean damage, per se, as much as it means the ability to impair the opponent.  Hence, I do not consider a team broken if it makes certain other strategies obsolete; that is normal.  Nor is it immediately broken if it is the crucial underpinning of a winning team.  It's only when that team literally cannot be beaten without extreme tactics that fail against the spread that a team (and its underlying mechanic) is considered unfair.  Hence, Y U SO DERP is unfair before Absorb MP, as was Losers before Concentrate.
6) Under my direction, game balance will typically involve not power escalation as much as increasing the types of roughly equivalent serious threats until they exceed the maximum capacity of a team to block them all while still being able to attack.  A broken threat is a unit or combination that kills or incapacitates most things without fail while retaining a competent level of defense, and requires bad setups to counter.  A serious threat is not broken until it reaches that 1-hit level.  Hence, deeply polarizing items or items / skills / effects that break existing limits are a good thing, because the idea is to eventually have a game where the perfect defense cannot exist, but the optimal offense will ultimately be a test of skill, luck, and psychology.

I'm too tired to reply to all those points, but I will later.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 01, 2013, 04:38:52 pm
I was thinking about salty rage being always berserk, my problem with that is that its too weak against status effects. Why not for the next change make Salty Rage initial berserk + haste

Reason being is that you can give your melee units more of an advantage like ninja or samurai. Also that it makes berserk units more of a threat considering that even the slowest unit with salty rage goes down too quickly. At least for my taste
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 05:26:31 pm
Some changes Doku and I came up with:

Save the Queen (15 WP, Init: Reraise)
Persia (11-12 WP, Init: Reraise)
Ragnarok (15-16 WP, Init:Protect / Shell)
Cashmere (12 WP, Init: Protect / Shell)
As this stands, we can then safely increase the WP of defender to 16 and keep the Ryozan Silk at 12 WP without issues.

Bizen Boat
Idea 1: Southern Cross Range; M-EV is optional
Idea 2: Always deal 0 HP damage on top of MP damage, as this then breaks charm / sleep (one of the times bizen boat is spammed most often), and triggers MP Restore, HP Restore, Auto Potion, etc.  Again, M-EV is optional here.

Salty Rage:
Initial: Berserk is easier to run because it doesn't lock your unit's battle style.  However, that only works if your unit can be quickly revived, so Initial: Reraise would be nice too.  A status nullification would top it off, but I'm not sure which.
With this, I'd be much more inclined to negotiate on Genji Helm (as we guaranteed a useful berserk item).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on August 01, 2013, 10:25:30 pm
Immune Blind, Don't Move
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 02, 2013, 04:54:46 am
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
I've noted two problems with how a lot of people reason on here about items (myself included).  It often leads to unnecessarily extreme changes.
1) Direct comparisons with other items rather than a holistic evaluation of the metagame, especially other items of the same equipment type.


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
Hence, I would consider the effect of Ignore: M-EV on my mages to be way less useful than Initial:Reflect, Strengthen: All, Absorb: Element X, or Always: Shell.


I assume the second quote is an example of the first point.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
2) If no one is using it, it needs a buff.  If it makes some choices irrelevant on some classes or too many people are using it, it needs a nerf.


There's a difference between "not used" and "not worth using."  There's a lot of crap that's not used that we aren't buffing, either.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
This one is addressed more towards you, Gaignun (and the Damned / Malroth, too, I think).
3) We clearly have a different idea of what is balanced.  Given FFT's base mechanics and how the AI thinks, I think FFT Arena is most balanced when
Optimized Offense < Defensive Hard-Counter < Offensive Anti-Counter < Defensive Soft Counter or Marginal Tricks


Bear in mind that I am only managing the proposal thread.  I am not arbitrating all the documented changes.  Anyway:

Your third point essentially describes what a meta-game is.  Yeah, there should be counters and anti-counters.  That's meta.  What there shouldn't be are strategies that dominate 90% of all others.  I don't care which of the four groups it falls under.  These include spellguns and Hidden Knife setups.  Before 1.38 it was Stone Gun, Berserk, Holy, and Ninjutsu.  The reasons why we are enjoying respite from Stone Guns now is because we now have weapons that are even more ridiculous: Mythril/Ultimus Bows (especially with 100% Hawk's Eye) and spellguns with Pilgrimage.

Don't take my word for it: we have 22 archers distributed among 35 entrants in S2, a higher ratio than ever before.  All but 3 are using a spellgun, Stone Gun, or Mythril/Ultimus bow.  When you play to win, you pick the gear that gives the most benefit.  If you invest in niche, hoping to counter something specific, you will likely lose in the first round without even encountering what you anticipated.  That's why I don't agree with niche gear like "anti-mediator headbands."  If the gear's intrinsic worth is only countering something specific, and if this "something specific" is not currently a dominating strategy, it's not going to be worth using compared to its alternatives.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
6) Under my direction, game balance will typically involve not power escalation as much as increasing the types of roughly equivalent serious threats until they exceed the maximum capacity of a team to block them all while still being able to attack. 


That's what we're trying to do, too, so, uh, maybe you could join the team rather than overthrow us.

As for power escalations, a common theme among the listed changes is lifting up the bottom and hammering down the top.  The bottom doesn't even need to be lifted too high if the most egregious offenders are hammered down well enough.  That's why crossbows are nearly unchanged: spellguns and Stone Gun are being reigned in so that crossbows no longer live in their shadow.  I don't consider this a power escalation at all.

Of course, we can discuss which buffs you think are unnecessary on a case-by-case basis.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
A broken threat is a unit or combination that kills or incapacitates most things without fail while retaining a competent level of defense, and requires bad setups to counter.  A serious threat is not broken until it reaches that 1-hit level.


Wait a minute.  I assume by "broken" you mean "bad."  So how do you defend spellguns and your magic-concentrate accessory?

Spellguns hit at 100% from 6 range (or 4 in your case, which is still as good as crossbows), 1HKO most mages without Shell, and pass right through elemental defense with the aid of oil.  Oil is applied:

1. using Short Edge, with the assistance of 100% accuracy from Hidden Knife, on nimble melee classes.  Even if oil doesn't proc, the two swords deal reliable damage and the target ends up having to get healed anyway.
2. using wide-AoE Black Magick Fire, which will also have 100% accuracy with your version of Genji Gauntlet

The only reliable counter is Projectile Guard: 300+250 JP for a reaction ability that coincidentally counters Crossbows, which are already a joke compared to these spellguns.

I don't know how closely you've been following FFTA over the past several months, but it appears that many people are tired of forcing their units to run White Robe or Projectile Guard to avoid eating 200+ damage Glacier Gun shots from 10+ SP archers.  Having to counter-build against spellguns all the time is stifling the opportunity to equip other gear, many of which are unused and which we're trying to encourage the use of.  The idea is to add enjoyment to FFTA by adding variety, not leave it a game of "Block Spellgun or Die."

Similarly, Magic Concentrate + Faith Rod + Short Charge is going to Frog, Paralyze, Sleep, etc. everything without resistance 70~100% of the time.  (That's 100% against all mages; as if they didn't have it bad enough.)  Magic Concentrate + MA Gear + Magic Attack UP is going to deal 216 damage AoE Chirijiraden 100% of the time.  What is the counter to this?  Setiemson and Magic Defend UP.  Two counters which are overburdened, given that they are already counters to all magic damage already.

In brief, you're taking a card out of hand that has little to begin with (M-EV) and putting it in a hand that already has more than enough (perfumes).
   
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 01, 2013, 01:52:42 pm
Hence, deeply polarizing items or items / skills / effects that break existing limits are a good thing, because the idea is to eventually have a game where the perfect defense cannot exist, but the optimal offense will ultimately be a test of skill, luck, and psychology.


If by breaking limits you mean makes the majority of other things not worth using, then I disagree.   Anyway, yes, there shouldn't be a perfect defense.  Nothing in the proposal summary (except for the Save the Queen/Ragnarok changes) hints toward such.

By the same token, there shouldn't be a perfect, or perfectly reliable, offense, either.  The biggest culprits are 100% accuracy weapons and skills.  You can explain what an ideal metagame is all you like, and I'll agree with you.  But FFTA's metagame isn't as sophisticated as you think.  These are AI battles.  Computers are deterministic.  Battles are nearly decided before they begin.  In tournaments, you choose a single team, then spend the next month watching where the chips fall.  The only variation is provided by the fickle RNG.  Investing in 100% accuracy attacks removes this variation in your favour.  This provides an overwhelming advantage.  To counterbalance this, no unevadable weapon or ability should require specific setups (e.g. Projectile Guard, elemental+Oil resistance) to counter.  For every universal advantage there should be a universal counter.  In this case, the counter is achieved by keeping unevadable damage low so that it is easily healed.  Otherwise, the balance is tipped and I cry myself to sleep every night.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 12:08:50 am
Regarding Genji Helm.  I do not like it with stregnthen AIR&EARTH.  It steps on the toes of Chirijiraden too much.  Also it facilitates female samurai using QUAKE/TORNADO

If the purpose is to boost the much maligned Heaven's Cloud then I have an idea.  First remove slow from Heaven's cloud and make it water elemental.  Then allow it to ignore M-EVADE.  Lastly make Genji Helm boost water.  It's guarantee to heal any allies who need to be healed.  So no accidental evade.  It's in line with water being the element that ignore evasion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 03, 2013, 02:03:30 am
The reason Genji Helm boosts Air isn't just for Heaven's Cloud's sake. It is supposed to boost the Wind Elemental completely by being a Head Ele Boost, which is half the reason why Holy/Dark is so strong. It exists on a Helmet so that it wouldn't make Air Knife OP, but since Air Knife is getting neutered (predictably), that point is now moot, but it's a decent idea for a helmet nonetheless. Earth is just there for the hell of it. I don't see too much point to it except to boost Kiku Katana. Samurai can use Quaknado right now with no problems.

I will comment that I understand everyone's desire for a Water drawout. It really is a pressing issue...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 05:53:41 am
Quote from: Gaignun on August 02, 2013, 04:54:46 amI don't know how closely you've been following FFTA over the past several months, but it appears that many people are tired of forcing their units to run White Robe or Projectile Guard to avoid eating 200+ damage Glacier Gun shots from 10+ SP archers.  Having to counter-build against spellguns all the time is stifling the opportunity to equip other gear, many of which are unused and which we're trying to encourage the use of.  The idea is to add enjoyment to FFTA by adding variety, not leave it a game of "Block Spellgun or Die."


Making compromises and adjusting against dominant strategies is what makes team-building interesting in the first place. I'm sorry that there are players that just want to use the best available and nothing more, and that having to deal with them bores you, but this is how competition works?

Are AI battles competition or just exhibition?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 06:48:48 am
Quote from: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 05:53:41 am
Making compromises and adjusting against dominant strategies is what makes team-building interesting in the first place.  I'm sorry that there are players that just want to use the best available and nothing more, and that having to deal with them bores you, but this is how competition works?


I agree with you on what makes team-building interesting, but we seem to disagree on the concept of dominant strategies.

Allow me to discuss what my idea of a meta-game is:

Short version: Equal distribution of power > Dominant strategies vs counter-strategies

Long version:

To me, a healthy meta-game is akin to rock-paper-scissors.  You have three options. All are equally usable because each has as many strengths as weaknesses.  (i.e. each option defeats one, loses to another, and ties the third.)  Simple example.

Games with many more options are, naturally, harder to balance.  Due to human fallibility, there will always be strategies that have more strengths than weaknesses.  Options with many more strengths than weaknesses are often called broken.  The fact that these options have weaknesses doesn't enter into the picture.  It is the balance of strengths and weaknesses, and not the existence of each, that assesses the option's worth.

(Sorry to those who don't follow fighting games, but I'm going to invoke some fighting game history here.)

This is especially true for competitive games.  Street Fighter 3 Third Strike is a much-loved competitive game, but it is terribly unbalanced.  It has 19 characters, but only three (Chun-Li, Yun, and Ken) are regularly used.  In tournaments, the meta-game involves picking characters and developing strategies to counter solely these three.  (Often, these strategies involve picking these very characters yourself.  After all, Chun-Li's only weakness is Chun-Li herself.)  This harms variety.  After all, there are 19 characters to choose from, and most are never chosen because they require you to work so much harder to achieve the same performance.

Balancing out this uneven distribution of power is the whole point of balance patches.  Capcom has been attempting to round out the cast of Street Fighter 4 for over four years.  When it was understood that rush-down characters Yun and Fei Long were god-tier, they nerfed them.  It didn't matter that they were weak to fireballs.  Only Sagat and Ryu could use fireballs competently against Yun and Fei Long, so the meta-game was basically about picking from 4 characters (Yun, Fei Long, Sagat, or Ryu), or preparing yourself to fight against overwhelming odds.  Furthermore, Yun's and Fei Long's strengths totally eclipsed other rush-down characters such as Rufus.  Rufus had dropped off the radar, and variety in SF4 had suffered for it.  The balance patch nerfed Yun and Fei Long so that characters like Rufus are worth using again.  Variety was restored.

In our case, spellguns/Stone Gun/Hidden Knife is Yun/Fei Long, Projectile Guard/White Robe/Perfumes is Sagat/Ryu, and Rufus is crossbows.  The current meta-game is about watching Yun and Fei Long dominate, watching Sagat and Ryu being picked to counter Yun, and lamenting over how ineffective the remaining 35 members of the cast are.  If this is your idea of a healthy meta-game, then there is nothing more I can say.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
It seems without actual numbers, this won't go down very well.  From my experience, a general outline of Arena's balance is as thus:

Optimized here means damage optimized, i.e. a skill or attack that is solely based on dealing damage to one target and can be blocked by defensive hard-counters like evasion, elemental null / halve / absorb, reflect, etc.  With magic, something has to be both non-reflectable and non-MEVable to be considered an anti-counter.

If an optimized ranged attack has user HP > 252 at CT < 3 averaging damage > 400 * enemy faith / fury, it is broken.  I say 400 because that's the HP of a PA setup lancer.  CT < 3 because if CT > 3, midcharging by units with at least 12 effective SP (which is readily attainable) is a solid counter.  252 HP is another common benchmark for a lot of spells.
A corollary is that if an optimized ranged attack with user HP > 252 and CT < 3 averages damage > 305 despite hindering faith / fury on either the target or the caster, it is broken.  I say 305 because that's the HP of a PA / MA setup squire.

Melee attacks follow slightly different rules.

If an optimized melee attack with CT < 3 averages damage > 400 * enemy faith / fury AND can squeeze in
1) 40 fury and HP > 336 (the HP damage of many common 2S / 2H max damage setups before target fury)
2) passive defense + 70 fury and HP > 305
3) HP > 380 (above the HP of a grand cross excalibur knight)
OR
4) Move > 4, base SP > 10 with HP > 305, he is broken.
A corollary is that if a melee attack purely dealing optimized damage with CT < 3 averages damage > 305 despite hindering fury on the target and satisfies one of the above conditions, it is broken.

An anti-counter is one that will deal less damage than optimum (i.e. 200-300) but will be blocked by few, if any defensive hard-counters.  Hence, I do not find it broken that two consecutive anti-counters, if they have synergy, can KO any unit that does not run DEFUP / Protect / unyielding / Shell / MADEF.  That is normal.  I did not build my S5 or S6 teams to deal 1 KO every time any one of my units got a turn...that would be too easy to block.  The ideal was 2.5 KOs per 4 consecutive turns, which on the whole, was achieved. 

Due to the variety of anti-counters, it's helpful to establish a point system of their abilities.  In this tier are attacks that circumvent defensive hard-counters, attacks with Unit Move > 3 + AoE > 1 (Draw Out radius), Damage Skill range > 4 + AoE / Vert > 0 (all magic), Unit Move > 3 + Southern Cross radius attacks, damaging attacks designed to heal the user (Grand Cross, Blood Harp).  Single target Damage + 100% Status is only in this tier if the statii proc works against the general opponent (i.e. Add: Blind is irrelevant, but Add: Blind OR Silence becomes useful); AoE Damage + Status is only worthy of consideration if AoE > 1 and the rate of a general incapacitation is at least 20% (where hitting 3 targets means ~50% chance of inflicting status on one).  Note that reflect only counts against a defensive hard-counter against magic, i.e. something a CT, MP cost that is blocked by Shell.
Point losses would be having any penalty a normal weapon or spell of the expected user's class (which may not be the class the skill is in) would not have, i.e. 0 Vert, higher CT Cost to similar skills, uses up at least 1/4 of user's MP total on optimal damage setup per cast, higher JP cost to similar skills, less range than similar skills.  Point losses occur on effects that harm team synergy.
Every time a skill satisfies one of these requirements, it gains a point.  Every time a skill satisfies one of the negative requirements, it loses a point.

Example:
Repeating Fist
Non-Elemental +1 Offense, -1 Team synergy
Non-Evade +1 Offense
0 Vert -1 Offense

Hawk's Eye
Non-Evade +1 Offense
Weapon Elemental -1 Offense OR Team Synergy (Running an elemental weapon is riskier)
Statii +1.5 Offense (Oil + Poison are both added)
MP Cost -1 User (I set it to 18 because I'm keeping the old version of oil, so the hindrance is even larger than before)
CT Cost -1 User

Flare
Non-Reflect: +1 Offense
Non-Evade: +1 Offense
Non-Elemental +1 Offense, -1 Team synergy
MP Cost: -1 User
CT Cost: -1 User

Stone Gun
Non-Evade: +1 Offense
Non-Elemental +1 Offense, -1 Team synergy
Early Game Weakness + AI Stupidity with Cancel: Petrify: -1 Team Synergy OR Risk

Spell Gun (in S7)
Non-Evade: +1 Offense
Non-Reflect: +1 Offense (relevant because of the type of damage)
Weapon Elemental: -1 Offense, +1 Team Synergy
(In short, this would be balanced if pilgrimage didn't exist.)

-ton (in S6)
Non-Evade: +1 Offense
Reflect: -0.5 Offense (relevant because of the type of damage, but not fully due to the type of units who typically run 40 faith)
Synergy: +1 Team OR Self
(On the edge of being imbalanced...)

Kagesougi (in S7)
Add Statii: +0.7 Offense, x2 2S Bonus (Notice that it's not dealing damage twice that counts, since the trade between range and damage is worthwhile, but the right to inflict status twice.  This bonus is not given to Greased Bolt because of 100% inflict.)
Weapon Elemental -1 Offense OR Team Synergy (Running an elemental weapon is riskier)

If a ranged anti-counter has user HP > 252 at CT < 3 and averages damage > (305 - (Point Sum) * 20) * enemy faith / fury, it is broken.
If a melee anti-counter with CT < 3 averages damage > (305 - (Point Sum) * 20) * enemy faith / fury AND can squeeze in
1) 40 fury and HP > 336
2) passive defense + 70 fury and HP > 305
3) HP > 380
OR
4) Move > 4, base SP > 10 with HP > 305, he is broken.

Units with Faith and Innocent deserve special attention, and those with warpath / pilgrimage.  We typically add a precondition to the damage considerations.
If Warpath / Pilgrimage, can the unit survive the early game?  Of course, this is dependent on the enemy team as well, but if a strategy in general has non-enemy dependent uncertainty (like stone gun [or my spellgun changes will] do with maps), the full damage boost will not be considered.
If Innocent, can the unit survive optimized damage -ton?  If not, the unit is not broken as long as his SPD < 10.
If Faith and no Shell or MADEF (since all faith attacks are ranged spells), increase the HP requirement in the ranged unit condition to 340.

In short, Gaignun, when one evaluates the anti-counters, we must consider the whole picture, as no one would use an attack that does less than optimal damage, even if it was unevadable, if it made it harder on the rest of the team.  This is why seen in this light, none of the current nerf proposals make sense except for five (cursed ring, kagesougi, spellgun, bizen boat, and things related to holy spam).  Your oil example was pretty telling; all you did was tell me that two units with synergy will kill any given non-tank (i.e. running DEFUP or unyielding) around 75% of the time, which to me seems pretty normal.

I did some calculations last night and holy would equal flare only if the average MEV per unit is 30% or if the average MA of a mage with MATKUP was 12.  Since both are clearly false, holy could stand to have Y = 15.  After that, as long as we use my changes to spellgun and cursed ring, there should be no problems, even with golden hairpin (which is only usable in its niche).

Outside the Niche
+10 HP, +50 MP =?= +1 MA or +2 PA...and I'd say 35-65 it goes towards the latter.  I say that because only MP deficient classes (read: bard, archer, ninja, thief, often with MMPUP) who use MP-dependent skills really favor the first over the second.  Most mages have enough after their robe that they're fine.

Inside the Niche
Holy: Holy maxes at short charged 3 CT, 318 damage (vs. 40 faith) off short charge on a 241 HP Wi or Sc / Pr with faith rod.  (MATKUP versions with 6 CT are way too easy to midcharge, and Cursed Ring setups [as long as CR continues to block holy] will keep them down).  If this was 2 CT + Gaignun's cursed ring changes, I'd be more worried, but at 3CT + the glaring weaknesses of that setup are enough to make me think otherwise (as even projectile guard is going to get you killed against a spellgun [my changes] + 108 gems + thief hat archer with maximum spellgun damage and haste due to midcharge).  Even without the faith rod, the unit is in 1HKO range of a spellgunner without pilgrimage (which remains true as long as we don't nerf damage).
What's actually more likely to be devastating is Sc / ?? with 256 HP and faith rod / holy miter / earth clothes / magic gauntlet with MATKUP spamming quake with 2 CT, AoE + Self-Heal, same damage vs. 40 faith, but being able to only use her spells three times should count against the setup.
Dark: Dark attacks are not a reliable primary attack element because of how popular dark absorb is between cursed ring and black costume, and the fact oil has no effect on it.  Boosted koutetsu healing + damage is annoying, but it's actually no worse than Grand Cross.

What this demonstrates is that you cannot compare niche items to general use items directly.  Niche items are intended to be better within their niche than anything else; that is normal.  They are also supposed to be outclassed outside their niche.
With that, I think there's enough balance on the silver bow that 13 WP, +2 MA, 33-40% holy would be fine.
While we're on the subject, Excalibur could use a +1 WP boost.  Sq / Pl with ice brand is a bit fragile, but his damage differential nearly equals the HP differential between him and paladin, so that could definitely be improved upon.
Instead of making a Genji Helm that will end up cause people to use tornado + kiku over heaven's cloud or Kiku as the new damage katana (to the point where I'd have a hard time saying the damage isn't broken), why not make it 100 HP, +1 Move?  I know this breaks tradition about how armored classes should be immobile, but that's still a helm that helps samurai over all other armor users because of their higher melee / draw out damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 01:01:58 pm
I'll quote myself before I begin to show you how I'm viewing your post.  You might not have caught it before posting, so:

Quote from: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 06:48:48 am
Options with many more strengths than weaknesses are often called broken.  The fact that these options have weaknesses doesn't enter into the picture.  It is the balance of strengths and weaknesses, and not the existence of each, that assesses the option's worth.


Now, I'm trying to digest your criteria on what constitutes balance, but it's not very clear.  Help me out here:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
If an optimized ranged attack has user HP > 252 at CT < 3 averaging damage > 400 * enemy faith / fury, it is broken.  I say 400 because that's the HP of a PA setup lancer.


So it's not broken as long as it deals fewer than 315~441 damage?  That's a little high.  Units that value something more than maximum HP (i.e. almost every unit) are going to be 1HKOd without perfume or (Magic) Defend UP.

Instead of running through the rest of your criteria one by one, I'll say this: your assessment of balance is quite binary. The message I'm receiving is either it exceeds a damage limit with the odd stipulation or two and is broken, or it is fine.  However, observing which attacks exceed an arbitrary number is not telling of balance.  If one attack averages 300 damage and another 150, these two attacks are unbalanced.  I'm not saying that observing damage limits is fruitless.  Indeed, it's good for keeping offense in check with defense.  But the issue here is the distribution of power between FFTA's many options, not the breaking of arbitrary limits.

Thus, my issue of spellguns and Stone Gun versus crossbows still stands.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Due to the variety of anti-counters, it's helpful to establish a point system of their abilities.


I must voice caution toward the use of point systems.  The prescription of numbers to attributes flattens contextual differences which separate skills.  This makes comparisons deceiving.  Furthermore, the prescription of numbers can be quite arbitrary.  This is going to be a little pedantic, but let me explain by example:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Example:
Repeating Fist
Non-Elemental +1 Offense, -1 Team synergy
Non-Evade +1 Offense
0 Vert -1 Offense


The team synergy point means nothing if you don't intend to run an absorption strategy to begin with.  Similarly, non-elemental offense isn't necessarily an advantage, since you cannot boost the damage with elemental strengthening, so its damage is limited.  Also, having non-elemental offense means little if you intend to make use of Oil or break/steal equipment, a strategy which is useful in its own right.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Hawk's Eye
Non-Evade +1 Offense
Weapon Elemental -1 Offense OR Team Synergy (Running an elemental weapon is riskier)
Statii +1.5 Offense (Oil + Poison are both added)
MP Cost -1 User (I set it to 18 because I'm keeping the old version of oil, so the hindrance is even larger than before)
CT Cost -1 User


This ties in with the Repeating Fist example.  I'd say the 100% accuracy of Hawk's Eye is better than the 100% accuracy of Repeating Fist.  First of all, Hawk's Eye can be used at a range, so it is much more usable.  Second, it inflicts Poison and Oil, but only if it hits.  Thus, the combination of these two attributes is greater than the sum.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Stone Gun
Non-Evade: +1 Offense
Non-Elemental +1 Offense, -1 Team synergy
Early Game Weakness + AI Stupidity with Cancel: Petrify: -1 Team Synergy OR Risk


I said this only a few posts ago, but Stone Gun's early game weakness is irrelevant on all but the smallest maps.  In fact, spending a turn cleansing petrify keeps your archer at the back of the party, where he should be.  This also helps keeps your party from running into mid-field at the same time and getting blasted by AoE.

Now to explain the point system's weakness: In these three examples, you prescribed Repeating Fist and Stone Gun 0 points and Hawk's Eye -0.5 points.  Stone Gun aside, this point system tells us that that Hawk's Eye is weaker than Repeating Fist.  I assure you that this is not the case.  Hawk's Eye's is gnarly.  First, it can be used from virtually anywhere, as it takes on its user's weapon's range.  Second, it deals solid HP damage (e.g. with Mythril Bow).  Mix in the fact that its damage is optimised by boosting SP, which further boosts its DPS.  Third, it adds poison and oil.  If the victim subsequently dies from elemental-amplified damage or what have you, the poison proc lingers, so Hawk's Eyes effect lasts even beyond death.  Furthermore, poison and oil cannot be healed at the same time.  If, by some chance, the victim survives, its party must spend three turns on damage control: healing the lost HP, cleansing poison, then cleansing oil.

Repeating Fist is actually weaker by comparison.  First, it has 1 range and 0 vert, so there are fewer opportunities to use it.  Second, it does not add ailments which last beyond death, so it costs the victim's party only one turn of damage control (i.e. healing the lost HP).  However, by following the results of the points system, we must conclude that Repeating Fist is stronger.

This is what I mean by flattening contextual differences.

In the end, the prescription of numbers is quite arbitrary.  For example, I disagree with your assessment of Stone Gun.  Stone Gun does not deserve to lose an equal amount for Init:Petrify as Repeating Fist does for 0 vert.  Similarly, is Repeating Fist's non-elemental offense and 100% accuracy equally deserving of 1 point?  Non-elemental offense is relevant only if your opponent is running elemental defense, whereas 100% accuracy is relevant in general.  In fact, if players throw out elemental defense in favour of mantles or perfumes due to threat of 1.38 Oil, then non-elemental offense is entirely irrelevant.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Spell Gun (in S7)
...
(In short, this would be balanced if pilgrimage didn't exist.)


I'm glad you observed this on your own.  Pilgrimage is the spark which led to the shifting of spellguns to the nether formula.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Your oil example was pretty telling; all you did was tell me that two units with synergy will kill any given non-tank (i.e. running DEFUP or unyielding) around 75% of the time, which to me seems pretty normal.


It kills the target 75% of the time on the assumption that the target is equipped to block the spellgun's element.  75% odds of having your counter neutralised (i.e. elemental defense) is a slap in the face to the idea of a counter.  Two-swords + spellgun is enough to kill all other units 100% of the time.  That's not normal at all.

You might want to check your math, but this combination is enough to kill even tanks.  Optimised Glacier Gun deals 224~314 damage (pre-Pilgrimage) to oiled units with Magic Defend UP.  Two concentrated Short Edges will do around 172~242 more.  That's enough for a 2HKO.

Now, concerning Golden Hairpin:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Outside the Niche
+10 HP, +50 MP =?= +1 MA or +2 PA...and I'd say 35-65 it goes towards the latter.  I say that because only MP deficient classes (read: bard, archer, ninja, thief, often with MMPUP) who use MP-dependent skills really favor the first over the second.  Most mages have enough after their robe that they're fine.


Data from S2 says its 25-75 in favour of Golden Hairpin.  Of the 21 units with Golden Hairpin, only 7 are using it to boost Holy/Dark damage.  Accounting for this makes it 33-66 in favour of Golden Hairpin.  You just explained that rounding out your party is better than maximising damage, right?  Well, many players enjoy the added security of 10 HP and 50 MP.  10 HP can mean a great deal to mages.  With HP in the mid-to-high 200s, +10 HP can mean the difference between a 1HKO and a 2HKO.

The remaining points are pretty minor, but:

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 amIf this was 2 CT + Gaignun's cursed ring changes,...


The Cursed Ring change isn't mine.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
What's actually more likely to be devastating is Sc / ?? with 256 HP and faith rod / holy miter / earth clothes / magic gauntlet with MATKUP spamming quake with 2 CT, AoE + Self-Heal, same damage vs. 40 faith, but being able to only use her spells three times should count against the setup.


Scholars are being replaced by Druids.  Their MA is taking a hit.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Dark: Dark attacks are not a reliable primary attack element because of how popular dark absorb is between cursed ring and black costume, and the fact oil has no effect on it.


We're trying to change this, first with the Cursed Ring SP nerf, and second by shifting Thief Hat's water elemental resistance to Green Beret so that Thief Hat + Black Costume ceases to be the single trusty hat+armor combination.  This is done precisely to make the Dark element more reliable.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on August 03, 2013, 08:25:12 am
Niche items are intended to be better within their niche than anything else; that is normal.  They are also supposed to be outclassed outside their niche.With that, I think there's enough balance on the silver bow that 13 WP, +2 MA, 33-40% holy would be fine.


Silver Bow with +2 MA doesn't outclass things just outside its niche, it outclasses everything.

Let's be reasonable.  The reason why you want Silver Bow to have +2 MA is because you want mages to use it well.  Unfortunately, mages aren't designed to use PA-based weapons.  It's not a good idea to break the entire weapon balance for the sake of going against this.  If you want to equalise the tradeoff between Equip X and (Magic) Attack UP, boost mages' PA.

Anyway, Bards (which will likely be the designated users of this new Silver Bow, MA bonus or not), can deal solid damage (328~460 at 40%) without MA bonus.  With the MA bonus (on Silver Bow and Golden Hairpin), that's 379~531.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 01:23:19 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 06:48:48 amTo me, a healthy meta-game is akin to rock-paper-scissors.  You have three options. All are equally usable because each has as many strengths as weaknesses.  (i.e. each option defeats one, loses to another, and ties the third.)


Rock-paper-scissors without different (read: inequal) rewards is uninteresting. You can't incorporate what you're opponent is doing into your strategy, because there's nothing predictable influencing decision making, so team-design becomes almost entirely a single-minded activity. That's boring.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 06:48:48 amGames with many more options are, naturally, harder to balance.  Due to human fallibility, there will always be strategies that have more strengths than weaknesses.  Options with many more strengths than weaknesses are often called broken.  The fact that these options have weaknesses doesn't enter into the picture.  It is the balance of strengths and weaknesses, and not the existence of each, that assesses the option's worth.


Only when the rewards of picking the counter-strategy compared to the dominant one are slim-to-none, and/or the dominant strategy hits a plateau that makes even designing counters in the game an impossibility, is it a problem. Otherwise, it's fine.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 06:48:48 amThis is especially true for competitive games.  Street Fighter 3 Third Strike is a much-loved competitive game, but it is terribly unbalanced.  It has 19 characters, but only three (Chun-Li, Yun, and Ken) are regularly used.  In tournaments, the meta-game involves picking characters and developing strategies to counter solely these three.  (Often, these strategies involve picking these very characters yourself.  After all, Chun-Li's only weakness is Chun-Li herself.)  This harms variety.  After all, there are 19 characters to choose from, and most are never chosen because they require you to work so much harder to achieve the same performance.

Balancing out this uneven distribution of power is the whole point of balance patches.  Capcom has been attempting to round out the cast of Street Fighter 4 for over four years.  When it was understood that rush-down characters Yun and Fei Long were god-tier, they nerfed them.  It didn't matter that they were weak to fireballs.  Only Sagat and Ryu could use fireballs competently against Yun and Fei Long, so the meta-game was basically about picking from 4 characters (Yun, Fei Long, Sagat, or Ryu), or preparing yourself to fight against overwhelming odds.  Furthermore, Yun's and Fei Long's strengths totally eclipsed other rush-down characters such as Rufus.  Rufus had dropped off the radar, and variety in SF4 had suffered for it.  The balance patch nerfed Yun and Fei Long so that characters like Rufus are worth using again.  Variety was restored.

In our case, spellguns/Stone Gun/Hidden Knife is Yun/Fei Long, Projectile Guard/White Robe/Perfumes is Sagat/Ryu, and Rufus is crossbows.  The current meta-game is about watching Yun and Fei Long dominate, watching Sagat and Ryu being picked to counter Yun, and lamenting over how ineffective the remaining 35 members of the cast are.  If this is your idea of a healthy meta-game, then there is nothing more I can say.


The issue is that you're more focused on bringing the power level down when it's not even THAT high. This isn't Yun/Fei-long, this is C.Viper/Dhalsim. The solution is to bring everyone else up. Unless you're suggesting there's no reasonable way to do so, in which case prove it!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 01:57:29 pm
Quote from: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 01:23:19 pm
Rock-paper-scissors without different (read: inequal) rewards is uninteresting. You can't incorporate what you're opponent is doing into your strategy, because there's nothing predictable influencing decision making, so team-design becomes almost entirely a single-minded activity. That's boring.

Only when the rewards of picking the counter-strategy compared to the dominant one are slim-to-none, and/or the dominant strategy hits a plateau that makes even designing counters in the game an impossibility, is it a problem. Otherwise, it's fine.


That's what SF4's producer, Ono-san, said about Yun and Yang in SSF4:AE.  His statement wasn't very popular with the fighting game community.

Quote from: AeroGP on August 03, 2013, 01:23:19 pm
The issue is that you're more focused on bringing the power level down when it's not even THAT high. This isn't Yun/Fei-long, this is C.Viper/Dhalsim. The solution is to bring everyone else up. Unless you're suggesting there's no reasonable way to do so, in which case prove it!


Ignoring the futility of proving a negative, you'll be pleased to find that most of the proposed changes for 1.39 are buffs.  The only substantial nerfs are spellguns, Kagesougi, and oil.  I'd say spellguns, Kagesougi, and oil are indeed that high.  Stone Gun's nerf is minor and is being done proactively upon observation of 1.37's metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 02:11:11 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 03, 2013, 06:48:48 am
I agree with you on what makes team-building interesting, but we seem to disagree on the concept of dominant strategies.

Allow me to discuss what my idea of a meta-game is:

Short version: Equal distribution of power > Dominant strategies vs counter-strategies

In our case, spellguns/Stone Gun/Hidden Knife is Yun/Fei Long, Projectile Guard/White Robe/Perfumes is Sagat/Ryu, and Rufus is crossbows. 

Regarding the damage being dealt by Hidden Knife, isn't the actual probem kagesougi?  I mean the damage coming from regular attack Hidden Knife is not going to bring the world to it's knees.  Especially when you consider that Ultimus bow+Kagesougi is similarly problematic.  Although I'm fine with Hidden Knife losing the +1 speed as long as it still grants transparent.

I don't agree with the change for Hawk's Eye.  It's going to cost more MP because it procs oil and allows a second unit to kill it.  Isn't that precisely what oil is supposed to do?  As for poison proc, well I've already mentioned that the number of matches where it has actually mattered has doubled to 2.

Lastly I don't think Stone Gun should be getting a nerf based on being theoretically unbalanced.  While I think CT5Holy's recommendation of a blanket buff of +2WP to Crossbows is a little bit too much, a blanket buff of +1WP is fine.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 06, 2013, 07:53:02 am
Quote from: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 02:11:11 pm
Regarding the damage being dealt by Hidden Knife, isn't the actual probem kagesougi?  I mean the damage coming from regular attack Hidden Knife is not going to bring the world to it's knees.  Especially when you consider that Ultimus bow+Kagesougi is similarly problematic.  Although I'm fine with Hidden Knife losing the +1 speed as long as it still grants transparent.


It's listed to lose 1 SP, but it's keeping its WP and Always: Transparent, so it will still do its job.  Its 5 W-EV has also been removed, but I don't mind whether or not its W-EV is actually removed, personally.

Quote from: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 02:11:11 pm
I don't agree with the change for Hawk's Eye.  It's going to cost more MP because it procs oil and allows a second unit to kill it.  Isn't that precisely what oil is supposed to do?


The MP cost increase will hardly be felt if clothes get their listed MP boosts.  Personally, I would rather have it lose its 100% accuracy, but I'm not sure how popular this motion is.

Quote from: reinoe on August 03, 2013, 02:11:11 pm
Lastly I don't think Stone Gun should be getting a nerf based on being theoretically unbalanced.  While I think CT5Holy's recommendation of a blanket buff of +2WP to Crossbows is a little bit too much, a blanket buff of +1WP is fine.


Making Stone Gun force-2H nerfs only archers.  Mediators and Chemists are unaffected.  This change will make crossbows the designated weapons for P/MEV-stacked archers.  Personally, I feel that this falls in line with crossbows' 4 range: archers move themselves closer to harm to attack, so they get to use a shield in compensation.  Recognising that crossbows also proc a status effect, crossbow archers will be the tanky saboteurs.

Edit:  Here is a rough summary of recent proposals that are not yet in the proposal summary.  Many of these changes have not been debated by more than two or three people, so if anyone else wants to chime in, please feel free to do so!


Phoenix Blade: Remove from game
Platinum Sword: 11 WP, 20 W-EV, 2H, 2S
Parry Edge: Remove from game
Moonlight: Remove from game.  Effect is given to Spear.
Ultima Weapon: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, 33% Cast: Ultima, 2H, 2S

============================
We can replace the three removed swords with three new ones.  Here are a few ideas, each with a brief assessment:

Balmung: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, Dark Element, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H, 2S
Unique in that it will be the first easily accessible Dark weapon and the only weapon to inflict Stop.  Stop will be inflicted at a rate of around 19%~37% (40v40 Fa, 70v70 Fa), and that's before considering M-EV.

Phoenix Blade: 14 WP, 10 W-EV, Fire Element, 25% Cast: Fire 2
The Fire-equivalent of Ice Brand.  This will essentially be another weapon for Squires and Geomancers to use Grand Cross with.  This might not be a good thing, since Ice-Brand Grand Cross is already quite effective. (e.g. It deals 220~308 AoE damage at 12 PA with a Kaiser Plate and Attack UP; the damage differential is twice that.)  This will require defending teams to protect themselves from another element (then Ice, now Fire and Ice).

Kazekiri: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Wind Element, +1 Range, 2S
Can be dual-wielded to add +1 Range to the second weapon.

Sword of Storms: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, Lightning Element, 33% Add: DM or DA, 2H, 2S
Will be the only Lightning elemental melee weapon (aside from Thunder Rod and Mace of Zeus).  Its proc overlaps with Ninja Edge's and Lightning Bow's, so it isn't exactly unique.  Still, it is worth considering.
============================

Crossbow: Remove from the game

============================
So far, only Malroth has suggested a replacement for Crossbow:

Stunner: 8 WP, 5 W-EV, 4 Range, 50% Set CT to 0
============================

Silver Bow: 13 WP, 10 W-EV, Holy element, 40% Cast: Holy

Save the Queen: 15 WP, 25 W-EV, Init: Reraise
Ragnarok: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, Init: Protect and Shell

Necronomicon: 15 WP, 10 W-EV, 33% Add: Zombie
Madlemgen: 14 WP, 10 W-EV, Boost: Ice, 33% Add: Stop
Monster Dict Book of Sealing: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Cast: Bizen Boat
Papyrus Plate: 8 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Cast: Flare

Asura Knife: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, Fire element, Strengthen: Fire, Ice, Lightning, 2H, 2S
Koutetsu Knife: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element, Strengthen: Dark, 2H, 2S
Bizen Boat: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 100% Cast: Sinkhole, 2H, 2S
Murasame: 12 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 MA, Heals on Hit, Immune: Berserk, 2H, 2S
Kiyomori: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Bio, 2H, 2S (+2 MA removed)
Kikuichimonji: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Earth element, 25% Cast: Quake, 2H, 2S
Chirijiraden: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 PA, Strengthen: Wind, Water, Earth, 2H, 2S

Giant Axe: 10 WP, 30 W-EV, +1 PA, +1 MA, Earth element (Strengthen: Wind, Water, Earth removed)

Romanda Gun: 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, +2 MA
Mythril Gun Vectra Gun: 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Range, Heals on Hit, 33% Add: Reflect (If adding a status and healing on hit at the same time is impossible, then this gun will need to be redesigned)

Spear Moonlight: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 50% Cast: Blade Beam
Mythril Spear Blood Spear: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Drains HP
Partisan Odin's Lance: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 20% Add: Dead
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Holy Element, 50% Cast: Holy Breath (Dmg_(MA*8))

Persia: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, Init: Reraise
Cashmere: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, Init: Protect and Shell


Genji Helm: 120 HP, Strengthen: Wind, Earth (Init: Berserk removed)
= OR=
Genji Helm: 100 HP, +1 Move (Init: Berserk removed)


Salty Rage: Init: Berserk, Reraise


Protect: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Heal_F(MA*6), 100% Add: Protect, 200 JP
Shell: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 0 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, Heal_F(MA*6), 100% Add: Shell, 200 JP

Asura: 0 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 0 CT, 0 MP, Dmg_(PA*9) (Ignores allies removed)
Bizen Boat: Southern Cross Range OR always deals 0 HP damage on top of MP damage (so that it breaks certain status ailments and triggers HP reactions)

Fuuton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 20 MP, Wind element, Dmg_UF(PA*11)
Meiton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 14 MP, Dark element, Dmg_UF(PA*10), Uncounterable
Suiton: 5 Range, 0 AoE, 0 CT, 12 MP, Water element, Dmg_UF(PA*9), Unevadable, Unreflectable

============================
If Suiton receives the listed buff, then Coral Sword's WP will drop by 1 to compensate.
============================


Other things, such as leaving spellgun damage alone, but lowering spellgun range to 4, are also on the table.

Topics that were not summarised (or that I forgot) are not displayed here.  For example, there was a discussion about changing MP-damage abilities other than Bizen Boat that are not displayed.  That doesn't mean these topics cannot be discussed!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 11, 2013, 02:13:17 pm
20 MP for Fuuton seems a bit steep. Suiton, at 60% of the MP cost, does slightly less damage (actually, on optimized builds that's like 50 less damage, which is decently relevant), but is unevadable. 16 MP for Fuuton would be more reasonable.

I would prefer Bizen Boat (Katana) to keep its stronger 100% Silence proc. The Sinkhole proc is not guaranteed to hit, since melee Katana users will typically have 40 Faith. Less units are affected by Sinkhole, as well. Recall the discussion of how Talk Skill users are vulnerable to Silence, especially since these units usually do not have Silence immunity. Sinkhole does let the Bizen Boat wielder get around Silence protection, but you have to hope they are in position to midcharge a unit. Also, isn't Silence getting a finite duration? That also makes the 100% Silence more manageable.

Genji Helmet... I dunno, both will be useful. I have no preference.

I like the 50% CT 00 proc Crossbow.

Everything else I'm fine with.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 15, 2013, 09:03:11 pm
(Damn it. I knew I'd fall behind, but it seems like formerdeaethcorps has picked up my "slack" when it comes to make really wordy posts.)

Given everything I have to do still right now and given that I want to respond to things after not just skipping them, I'll spare you guys (and gals) from one such reply for now.

Not that I'd quote *everything* that's gone on in the past couple of weeks here in one post. Probably. I mean, as masochistic as I am, I don't exactly want to get into debating metagame semantics, as least in the same post I'm replying to changes about mechanics.

So, for now, I'll just say four to six things:


1. It's nice to "see" you back, formerdeathcorps. How did you get punished by being sent to China?

2. As I was originally going to response to Dokurider's post about Knives/Daggers before I got "distracted" by other things for the past couple of weeks: I don't think all Daggers need to lose Move +1, but the Knives that are capable of being used with Two Hands definitely do (if we're letting those remain Two Hand-capable at all). At the very least, Throwing Knife would be fine keeping Move +1.

3. Also as I was going to reply to Dokurider awhile ago: Yes, you currently cannot add statuses or cancel statuses while healing on hit (with a weapon). That should be "easy", relatively speak at least, to change/"fix" though, especially compared to some of the other stuff that people like FFMaster, formerdeathcorps and Pride have done. So Vectra Gun (or whatever we're calling it) should be "easily" doable with ASM'ing.

4. I actually might be okay with "Freezing Fist", if only because Ice is implicitly taking a moderate hit in usability anyway with the necessary change to Defense Ring and it's already one of the lesser used elements. I'll have to think on it more though, especially since I just skimmed over this and am only replying since Gaignun mentioned I might have a problem.

5. From just skimming things, I have to say that I'm...kinda uncomfortable with all the talk about adding Initial: Reraise do more things even with Phoenix Blade biting it, especially since the A.I. is often so dumb about ignoring units that will get back up.

6. Related to that, yes, I think that making it so Cursed Ring revival is only 50/50 even with the immunity to Crystal and Treasure would be fair even with it probably still needing to lose Speed +1. I still don't understand why it isn't already that because I could have sworn, having tested the exact same things years given that I was among those who suggested the buff, that even with immunities, revival isn't guaranteed. And this wouldn't be the Reraise on Undead units things that's addressed in Battle Mechanics Guide where my utterly atrocious luck meant that those units never revived on me. Shrug.

Anyway, that would make Cursed Ring still usable but not stupid like it is now.


I'll punish you all over the weekend. Probably.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 16, 2013, 08:28:44 am
Quote
Ifrit: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Fire Elemental, F_MA*8, Unevadable, Enemy Only, No Reflect, CM, CF, 100 JP

Quote
Salamander: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 20 MP, Fire Elemental, F_MA*8, M-Ev, Enemy Only, 20% Oil, No Reflect, CM, CF, 100 JP


Hey guys, what's wrong with this picture?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dynablade on August 16, 2013, 03:38:34 pm
oooh ooh I wanna try!

Salamander costs more, at a higher CT, is evadeable, and still only does MA*8 damage?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 16, 2013, 06:26:11 pm
I'm sure that's a typo - Salamander should still be at 3 AoE?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 17, 2013, 08:57:09 pm
Salamander is 3 AoE currently, yes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on August 18, 2013, 01:27:18 pm
That's still not a good trade-off. 2 effect is good enough to hit an entire party in most cases, and 20% Oil is only helpful on repeated usage, which is undermined by the higher mp cost.

Why does summoner even need 2 fire-elemental spells, anyways?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 18, 2013, 04:33:11 pm
Quote from: AeroGP on August 18, 2013, 01:27:18 pm
That's still not a good trade-off. 2 effect is good enough to hit an entire party in most cases, and 20% Oil is only helpful on repeated usage, which is undermined by the higher mp cost.

Why does summoner even need 2 fire-elemental spells, anyways?


Yeah Summon Magic never needed two fire spells, but it's not like you make it a different element or anything and removal is only an option if the skill itself is hopelessly overpowered.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 19, 2013, 07:47:54 pm
It's true that there is no reason for Salamander to be around in Arena, unless it was massively different to Ifrit in some way other than bigger AoE and 20% Oil. There really isn't much left to add to Summoner that isn't already there though. Clearly I should make it the only 4 AoE spell in the game.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 24, 2013, 05:16:17 pm
Diamond Shield should Null Dark instead of Earth because they correlate to Golden Hairpin.

Do you guys thing that the Elemental Shield's weaknesses are relevant or needed anymore? Given that Clothes freely absorb *two* elements without drawback, how important is having Elemental weaknesses now?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on August 24, 2013, 09:17:38 pm
You could replace Salamander with Midgardsormr (Midgar Swarm) and make it have the chance to inflict poison or some other debilitating status.  Just a thought.

I think the reason the absorb shields have elemental weaknesses is because it forces people to build around them, which is nice considering more equipment should behave like that.  Don't want to make building characters too easy now; there wouldn't be any fun in that. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 25, 2013, 08:23:33 pm
Except that anyone with access with clothes will just use clothes instead. My point being is that Clothes have made having an elemental drawback mostly obsolete. So either we phase out elemental weaknesses entirely or make a 180 and make them relevant again by removing the elements from clothes that shields already have (sans Earth and maybe lightning).

A unrelated point, but should we unflag Holy from self-hit? It's a terrible idea that the AI insists on doing for some reason. We've seen this in action and it's retarded. I say getting rid of self targetting won't hurt anything.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on August 26, 2013, 12:21:06 am
If we took out all elements that are absorbed by shields, how about we make all of the clothes behave like Earth Clothes?

Santa Suit becomes Aviator Suit:  Absorb: Wind, Strengthen: Wind
Black Costume changes to:  Absorb: Dark, Strengthen: Dark
Rubber Costume becomes Diving Suit:  Absorb: Water, Strengthen: Water

The only problem I have with changing clothes is that some elements will most likely become impossible to have a team fully absorb.  Most likely Ice, which having an all Ice team is already hard to accomplish as it is. Not to mention that clothes are limited to those who can wear them (which admittedly is a lot) but that's also something to consider. 

And I agree with unflagging Holy from self-hit.  Even if I gave some of my Holy units Cure spells they would still insist on targeting themselves with Holy.  Maybe I should just stop equipping Magic Rings on them... but I find my Holy units always dying to, you guessed it, Holy.  Removing self-hit would at least help out my current conundrum... I don't know how many others.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on August 27, 2013, 01:28:11 am
thus making black magic even more useless as they would no longer be able to self heal with any armor ever
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on August 29, 2013, 07:30:16 am
I agree with making stopping dumb AI from using Holy on Self.

I agree that the 3 elemental clothes are doing too much, but JamesOnyx also has a point about making absorb teams too hard to use then. Honestly, the problems with Absorb/Weak/Elemental crap has persisted since the beginning of this project, and I think it may be best to work this shit out now.

Xif has already suggested before to make Weakness only do 50% more damage. Absorb would also get neutered to 25% damage iirc. Bringing back weak/absorb would then become healing of 37.5% amount. So in essence:

No mods: 100% damage
Weak: 150% damage
Half: 50% damage
Absorb: 25% damage(healed)
Weak+Half: 75% damage
Weak+Absorb: 37.5% damage(healed)
Weak+Half+Absorb: 18.75% damage(healed)
Null+Anything: 0%

Oil will still override everything, and will at the same time be affected by the weakness changes.

This will overall make Arena less elemental focused, and having things like weakness on equipment may have some uses again, as well as bringing back some more complexity into team building.

As usual, I'm open to other ideas and comments about the current situation or proposed ideas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 29, 2013, 02:18:47 pm
Yeah these changes will be for the best.

That being said, should we start tacking on weakness onto more items, Clothes in particular?

Rubber Costume = Weak: Fire or Wind
Black Costume = Weak: Ice or Earth
Santa Outfit = Weak: Lightning or Water

Light Robe = Weak: Dark
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 29, 2013, 03:18:19 pm
Quote from: FFMaster on August 29, 2013, 07:30:16 amAbsorb would also get neutered to 25% damage iirc.


Is this necessary?  Since the absorption flag prevents the opposing team from using the element against them regardless of its modifier, reducing this modifier only weakens self-absorption as a concept.  Self-absorption already has disadvantages.  First, such strategies must make do with skill sets that lack revive or status healing (i.e. Black Magic, Draw Out).  Second, such strategies have little room to invest in more than one or two elements, so they are in danger of being hard-countered by a strategy that resists these same elements.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on August 29, 2013, 03:20:52 pm
I think absorb to -50% would work better since you could get 75% of current healing by combining absorb + weak  allowing elemental healing to be viable for very dedicated units dedicating 2 equipment slots to it  but making it impractical for primary healing for any but the most focused of teams.

Chameleon Robe: Weak Dark
White Robe:  Weak Holy.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on August 29, 2013, 05:49:00 pm
I agree that 25% might be too much of a nerf for the exact reasons that Gaignun pointed out.  Somewhere from 33%-50% (I vote 50%) seems much more fair.  I myself would just give up trying to make absorb teams if they were dropped to 25%. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 29, 2013, 06:09:12 pm
White and Chameleon Robe don't need nerfs, Chameleon Robe in particular. Although we could give Chameleon Robe Weak: Holy as a buff.

On second thought, I'm not so sure I want Weak: Dark for Light Robe, as that would make it the defacto Robe for Dark spamming Cursed Ringers.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on August 29, 2013, 06:48:06 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 29, 2013, 03:18:19 pm
Is this necessary?  Since the absorption flag prevents the opposing team from using the element against them regardless of its modifier, reducing this modifier only weakens self-absorption as a concept.  Self-absorption already has disadvantages.  First, such strategies must make do with skill sets that lack revive or status healing (i.e. Black Magic, Draw Out).


This is specifically targeted to nerf team absorption. I don't understand how having to deal with skillsets without revival/status is a bad thing because it's not. With an offensive unit, you don't want that unit to have revival/status healing because having those skills on your offensive unit is a distraction and a detriment. Secondly, at least half, if not more, of team absorption is done through weapons.

QuoteSecond, such strategies have little room to invest in more than one or two elements, so they are in danger of being hard-countered by a strategy that resists these same elements


Except the main appeal and power of absorb team is healing each other. As long as you don't make your entire offense nothing but your respective element, you will be able to withstand the enemy's damage and fight back using a different element, or more practically, a non-elemental attack. Furthermore, Oil solves this problem anyways.

Quote from: JamesOnyx on August 29, 2013, 05:49:00 pm
I agree that 25% might be too much of a nerf for the exact reasons that Gaignun pointed out.  Somewhere from 33%-50% (I vote 50%) seems much more fair.  I myself would just give up trying to make absorb teams if they were dropped to 25%.


I say 33%. At 50%, Weak Absorb will produce 75% absorption, which is too high. Weak Absorb @ 50% is perfect, which is exactly what you get with 33% Absorption.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 30, 2013, 02:52:38 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on August 29, 2013, 06:48:06 pm
This is specifically targeted to nerf team absorption. I don't understand how having to deal with skillsets without revival/status is a bad thing because it's not. With an offensive unit, you don't want that unit to have revival/status healing because having those skills on your offensive unit is a distraction and a detriment.


That's true, but Black Magic, Draw Out, and Lore users are typically mage types (low HP and SP).  Fielding additional mages for revival duty makes the team as a whole quite squishy.  Weapon absorption, on the other hand, is intrinsically weaker, as it heals only one target at a time.

Regardless, I wasn't aware that people viewed the self-absorption strategy negatively.  I think the strategy is easily confronted with a bit of one's own elemental resistance (particularly if Oil is changed to no longer override resistances -- have you made your decision about this, FFMaster?).  Ultimately, it doesn't feel that overpowered to me.  For instance, Reks' Severe Weather Alert probably utilises self-absorption to the fullest extent possible, but it still struggled in the ongoing tournament.

I'll resign myself if the consensus is to cut out self-absorption from the metagame.  At least I've given my input.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 30, 2013, 04:54:27 pm
Wait, why all the hate on elemental absorb all of a sudden? Cutting effectiveness of absorb makes that strategy completely worthless. Even 50% is enough to make it pretty darn bad. It's not a dominant strategy whatsoever. You really need AoE (with good damage) to make it worthwhile. AoE means you aren't only healing one person, and good damage (and thus healing) means you can sorta keep up with the opposing team's damage output (turn a 2HKO into a 3HKO at the very least). You really need every unit active for an elemental absorb to be highly effective. Even disabling one unit is enough of a momentum shift, as the ele absorb team is now less likely to heal enough to mitigate the enemy team's damage. Then, another unit on the ele absorb team has to get rid of whatever's disabling their teammate, further reducing their ele absorb capabilities. If enough damage has been sustained during this time, then units that can only do single target healing are stuck healing their teammates instead of attacking the enemy team. Further keep in mind that 2 AoE attacks require near-max MA setups to do good damage, except perfumes/DefUP/MDefUP are still very popular, which makes the ele absorb team less likely to drop enemy units.

Arena is not highly elemental focused. Elemental absorption tactics are something to consider and to look for when making teams, but I don't think any of the top teams would be considered elemental absorb teams. Elemental absorb teams are best against teams that can only do damage (and ideally have low to average damage outputs, aka not strong teams (not counting defensive teams since they don't really care about damage)). Ele absorb teams cannot disrupt enemy teams (aside from KOing them) because they need all their units to perform elemental attacks. These teams are also highly susceptible to disruption, for the same reason - everyone needs to be doing their job, otherwise their position could easily crumble.

I would be fine with Weak being 150% damage instead of 200% though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on September 13, 2013, 02:40:08 pm
Just a random thought: People have expressed interest in expanding Bard's equips to Robe, but denied it because it would make them too good of spellcasters. I disagree that robes would make Bards any better at spellcasting then they are now. Sure they would be better at casting Black Magic and Holy, but they would still fall short of the versatility of the other mage classes. But that's not what I'm asking for. Instead, what if we gave Bards (and Dancers) Armor, but not Helmets or vice versa? It would make them better melee fighters then present.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on September 24, 2013, 04:03:52 pm
Got more ideas here:
Going back to Katanas for a minute, I have an idea for Asura Knife. I find at often times, a support samurai can't deal decent damage at all, even with Two Hands. A Female Samurai with base PA 7 and a Fury of 40 only deals 94 damage before target Fury, which means hitting a target with Auto Potion can do more healing than hurting. So what if instead we made Asura a WP*WP weapon? Leaving it with its exact same stats, but lowering its W-Ev to 5 and giving it 9 WP would make a 148 damage sword before target Fury at minimum and a 252 damage weapon after Attack Up. That sounds high, but even a 9 WP Katana can deal 288 damage with 12 PA, with a choice of 100% Silence or Faith. Overall, it would be a very solid weapon if implemented, acting as a supplemental form of damage.

Ragnarok/Save the Queen: Just give them 30 W-Ev. If people don't warm up to it, then their loss. Well we could give one or both a proc in exchange for a WP drop. Give Ragnarok 20% Berserk in exchange for 13 WP? I mean these weapons are basically Chaos Sword with Protect/Shell, let's try to give them a chance next time, right?

The Future of Transparent and Hidden Knife: I think instead of removing Transparent or +1 Speed from Hidden Knife, we could instead remove its 100% accuracy? "If we did that, then what good would there be in leaving Transparent on?" Transparent has an effect on the AI itself. Basically it makes the AI more aggressive. That alone is a worthy effect. It's subtle, but it has significant effects. For example, giving a Ninja Item while equipping Hidden Knife would result in a unit that isn't so OCD about item usage to the point of being crippled by it like it would typically be.
Failing that, just replace Initial: Berserk with Always: Transparent and leave its Concentrate intact. God knows Initial: Berserk sucks and Always: Berserk is going to be possibly problematic. Always: Transparent sounds like a good compromise. (Removing Transparent from Hidden Knife is implied if this route is to be followed instead.)

Transparent as a Negative Status: Expounding more on Transparent, what if we used Transparent as a negative status? When added temporary, Transparent units act timid, refusing to break Transparent by acting. This could be useful as a makeshift Don't Act, a brand new status, no reprogramming needed. It could also act as a drawback for a new item, acting similarly to initial: Petrify. (Hint, hint)
So exactly what should proc Transparent? What if we replaced Ninja Edge's proc with 25% Transparent? It can also be slipped into Bad Luck's proc list. Or we can give one of the Knight Swords Transparent?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 01, 2013, 09:59:33 pm
So I remember the idea of a healing gun, but at the time, I think I was pretty indifferent to it. But now I see it would be a great weapon, because it would force consistent use of the Snipe skills. With this weapon, every attack could possibly be a Arm Aim or a Weapon Break, rather than the AI only using it whenever they feel like.

The only objection I remember was that it would make X-Potion obsolete. That's not true at all. First off, the healing powers will not be remotely comparable once you factor in Fury. With 12 WP and 40 Fury, you're only healing 108 damage, and that's before target fury, which could drop it as low as 81 damage. Even at 6-8 range, that's just not comparable to what a Throw Item X-Potion can do. Not to mention having to worry about getting caught up by friendly projectile guards. Finally, you're trading a way to deal reliable damage, or damage at all for a 'better' X-Potion, when you can just have X-Potion.

Overall, it's a good idea, and I hope to see it implemented next version. Just don't give it a Reflect proc. That might mess up it's use on Support Magic teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 02, 2013, 04:36:42 am
Quote from: Dokurider on October 01, 2013, 09:59:33 pm
Overall, [a healing gun is] a good idea, and I hope to see it implemented next version. Just don't give it a Reflect proc. That might mess up it's use on Support Magic teams.


You think it would?  There is a collection of basic support skills which ignore Reflect (e.g. Protect/Shell 2, Haste 2, Cure 4, Murasame, Masamune).  Also, the AI is clever at using Reflect offensively (e.g. casting Demi 2 on a single unit twice in a row for instant-death).  It's true that Black Magick self-absorption and Cure 1~3 would become ineffective, but I think that is a small sacrifice for this added potential.

On an unrelated note, would anyone mind if we buff Revive's Y value by 10~20?  Maybe I'm sore from the recent tournament, but witnessing a 300 JP, 0 Vert revival skill miss on good compatibility (multiple times) is harsh.  Surely such an expensive skill could use more reliability, especially considering that we're buffing the range of Revive's closest competitor, Wish, from 1 to 3.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 02, 2013, 03:50:00 pm
Well, reflecting Esuna, for one, is a near deal breaker for me. Add in a (possible) Haste spell buff for the next update and yeah, Reflect procs could be a problem for some teams. Eh, on second thought, it could use that proc as a possible demerit once people catch on to using it as an Arm Aim/Weapon Break spammer.

Yeah, I think Revive could use a buff. It's 0 Vertical punishes it hard enough to the point it can't ever be a main form of revival.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 02, 2013, 05:02:19 pm
1) The Healing Gun, if it has a decent amount of WP, will be put to more efficient use in southern cross, spellbreaker, hawkeye (or Kagesougi, depending on what FFM changes).  Why should I break someone's weapon for at best 50% after evasion when I have a combo-kill 80% of the time after evasion (assuming no Proj. Guard and my teammates are still alive)?
2) If the WP is average or worse, then it will be used only to break and arm aim, as you suggested.  However, let's compare this to the mediator.
Arm Aim > Threaten
Weapon Break ~ Death Sentence because
A) WEapon Break is permanent, but only seriously affects physicals and units without Maint.  Death Sentence always leads to a KO, but the AI does not attack said unit.
B) Weapon Break trades extra range for evasion. Base hit chance is similar, though.
Potential (Me) builds > Potential (AR) builds
Notice that mediator really works well as a secondary on nearly any job, whereas the healing gun with low WP will only really promote archer arm aim and break primaries / secondaries.  By virtue of their strategy, they cannot run any kind of ranged (or have high move + melee) offense or the AI will not use arm aim or break.
3) If WP is low, this gun has no value in team offense or defense after the target is DA'd or loses his weapon.  This makes such setups automatically inferior to the current break setups (40 fury archer with concentrate or 2S ninja with hidden knife, 40 fury, unyielding) because both are guaranteed other kinds of utility after break has completed its job.
4) Existing archer setups will use don't act and breaks.  If a gunner cannot deal damage because of elemental absorb clothing and elemental nullification shields, he will opt for break or arm aim.  In general, if a unit does less damage than break would do to HP, he'll give both attacks the same priority.  Similarly, archers will use breaks or arm aim on charmed / sleeping units.  Lastly, the AI does keep track of how many of its skills take physical evasion and the rough level of enemy evasion.  If the # of skills is above 50% of total skills (not including ATTACK), the target cannot be KO'd by the existing turn combo (ignoring both reactions and evasion), target evasion is high, and the attacker can add DA or shield break, then the AI will give DA and shield break the same priority as a weapon attack.  If the target is soon to get a turn (i.e. your typical archer vs. tank paladin), DA and weapon break also have the same priority as attack.  In other words, a team that uses both HP and evasion to tank will be hit by these tactics far more than the average team.

Conclusion: The healing gun is a poor gimmick.  High WP makes it the new Blaze Gun to be spammed off kagesougi, hawkeye, and grand/southern cross, especially if made elemental, which defeats the intended purpose of the item.  Mid-Low WP makes it worthless because Mediator and the existing break setups have far more flexibility.  The low flexibility is incredibly damning because such offense, without team support, has no means of continuing itself after its main goals (of break or arm aim) are accomplished, but maybe that's just my biases towards favoring an autonomous offense.

6) As for revive, it's currently no better or worse than wish.  Unlike Raise2, which can simply ignore CT synchronization on all but the most fragile of teams, Wish and Revive require a synchronized team to ensure maximal use.  I really don't see the need to strengthen either as I've used it on both on many of my teams with little complaint, because Raise2 requires you to dedicate significant deterrence against anti-mages.  In today's metagame, that includes max damage pilgrimage spellguns, bizen boat, refute, throw stone, sinkhole, SC'd summons or silence / berserk / DA.  It is literally impossible to protect your raise2 user against all threats (nor should anyone expect such security), nor can you guarantee its reliability without exposing your team (as you need at least 70 faith on caster + at least 50 on target + good compat to get 90+%).

7) If you all are adamant about wanting a specialized breaker's gun, can't we just replace the stone gun with the rainbow gun?
I.e. Gun Properties = Half / Weak All Elements; forced 2H, 6 range, 12 WP
Gun References a spell that is All Elements, XA * 12 (not subject to faith, WP replaces XA here so it takes MADEF and Shell)
Since it doesn't take faith (or pilgrimage), the damage it normally hits for 240 at maximum.  This justifies both the 2H and the spell being all elements.
Of course, this means the rainbow staff now needs to be something else as the gun completely overshadows its effect and has range.  Maybe 8 WP with init: reflect?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 08, 2013, 06:06:41 pm
1.) I'd like the Rainbow Gun because it would be a much fairer implementation of Heal Gun.

2.) I actually forgot that Revive heals more than Wish, enough in fact to bypass Critical. Used timely, it can preserve momentum quite well.

3.) I don't think anyone would be sad about Rainbow Staff getting replaced. Initial: Reflect could work. So could Immune: Charm or Poison.

Now for today, I'd like to turn attention to Lancers and their Spears. I know we've already had a few discussions about them before, but I feel the subject needs more discussion.

I like the idea of making Spear/Mythril Spear/Partisan Fire, Ice, and Lightning respectively, but I think they can be varied up a bit.

QuoteSpear: 12 WP, Ice Elemental, Speed +1, 50% Ice Bracelet
Mythril Spear: 12 WP, Fire Elemental, Immune: Ice
Partisan: 12 WP, Lightning Elemental, Cancel: Blind


Spear is pretty much what was originally proposed. I might have missed something, but that's pretty much the gist of it. Mythril Spear and Partisan, however, are two weapons designed to make Lancer more compatible with Grand Cross. Partisan negates Grand Cross' Blind, but also makes it a valuable weapon on it's own terms. Mythril Spear, however, isn't as on the nose for it's Grand Crossing. It's designed to buff Flame Shield by covering it's Ice Weakness.

In addition, I'd also like to change up Obelisk because I feel it's just not effective enough.

QuoteObelisk: 8 WP, 0 W-Ev, +3 PA


Yes, +3 PA. But why? Right now, Obelisk doesn't do enough to help Lancers out. It's just a harder hitting FS Bag. Which isn't bad, but it still means that Lancers lose out to Monks when to comes to Punch Art/Ninjutsu use. Lancer's PA maxes out at 17 PA, a figure a Monk effortlessly reaches with a FS Bag and a Power Sleeve. Furthermore, Lancers can't leverage their HP and Shield advantage for a position when maxed out because they had to use their shield for PA and they only have 70 more HP then a Monk. A Monk that is currently immune to pretty much everything he needs to be immune to. While half of this problem is Chakra Band, it still stands that Lancers simply can't compete with what Monks can offer even after Headbands.

I don't consider this attribute any more extreme than Javelin's +2 Speed attribute, especially with a -3 WP drop. With +3 PA, they can reach 16/17 PA and have an additional slot to make them competitive with the other physical classes. For instance, with the new Genji Helmet and their reunion with Robes, they can be built to be excellent Fuuton/Suiton users. They can also built to be tougher Punch Art users than Monks thanks to having Shields.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 13, 2013, 06:34:43 am
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 02, 2013, 05:02:19 pm
7) If you all are adamant about wanting a specialized breaker's gun, can't we just replace the stone gun with the rainbow gun?


I do not believe everyone is adamant about wanting a breaker's gun.  It is Dokurider's suggestion.

The primary purpose of the healing gun is to heal, so the gun should be judged accordingly.  The way I see it, the healing gun is a substitute for X-Potion; archers and mediators can throw these "X-Potions" at 5~6 Range without needing to equip Item or Throw Item.

Now, it is perfectly valid to question the necessity of this gun.  After all, if its primary purpose is to replace X-Potion, then its role is quite redundant!  That is why I propose that it adds reflect at a high (33~50%) percentage.  The AI is competent at using reflect to double-cast spells on targets and reach targets out of range.  However, there is currently no way to exploit reflect outside of making use of "Init: Reflect" equipment.  Depending on such equipment is not reliable because reflect expires on death and can be easily dispelled (especially once Dispel's AoE is buffed from 0 to 1).  This healing gun will offer a way to get around these difficulties by permitting the application of reflect in battle.

Dokurider: A summary of recent weapon proposals -- spears included -- was made a few months ago.  I can't blame you for failing to reference/notice them as I have not transferred them to the proposal thread.  And for a reason: We've been making 1.39 proposals for so long that if we were to request FFMaster to carry out every single one as they appear, patch 1.39 would never arrive.

Here are the spear changes.  A full list is on page 71.

QuoteSpear Moonlight: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 50% Cast: Blade Beam
Mythril Spear Blood Spear: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Drains HP
Partisan Odin's Lance: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, 20% Add: Dead
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, Holy Element, 50% Cast: Holy Breath (Dmg_(MA*8))


Do any of these feel appropriate to you?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 15, 2013, 04:24:34 pm
No, I'm pretty sure a breaker's gun was wanted at some point. I just can't be bothered to shift through everything.

Like I said, a healing gun would never replace X-Potion, mainly because of fury restrictions throttling the healing and giving up a weapon. Either way, it will be used as a breaker weapon and it's healing purpose will be largely ignored. The only way to curb it's use as a breaker weapon would be to make it a magic gun and lower it's WP very low (no higher than 8-9). Even that would probably be a bandage. My point is, you're right in not wanting it, just not for the right reasons, Gaignun.

Quote from: Gaignun on October 13, 2013, 06:34:43 am
Dokurider: A summary of recent weapon proposals -- spears included -- was made a few months ago.  I can't blame you for failing to reference/notice them as I have not transferred them to the proposal thread.  And for a reason: We've been making 1.39 proposals for so long that if we were to request FFMaster to carry out every single one as they appear, patch 1.39 would never arrive.

Here are the spear changes.  A full list is on page 71.

Do any of these feel appropriate to you?

They are just fine then. My point was to increase the Lancer's utility.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 16, 2013, 08:10:21 am
I believe it would be used to break equipment regardless of its WP.  Each point of WP adds only 1% to a break's success rate, after all.

I would strive to demonstrate the usefulness of its reflect proc were it implemented.  It would be used to shield high-faith units from spells.  In this respect, it is best to implement it as a faith-driven spellgun, indeed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 16, 2013, 11:33:09 pm
I'd Like to Hear Opinions to A Phoenix blade that instead of Always:Reraise, Slow had Immune:Undead, Petrify ,Crystal, Death Sentence  ensuring that they were always revivable but diddn't automatically ensure they'd be back up the next turn.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 17, 2013, 02:55:31 pm
I proposed something similar (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9446.msg184642#msg184642) in the 139 topic, but as a Crystal Shield replacement. I like your idea of being Immune to Undead/Petrify/Death Sentence better than perma Regen/Poison Immunity however.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 17, 2013, 11:40:59 pm
I was thinking for the flame/ice/gold/mythril shield we keep the elemental absorption but have flame shield be immune to oil, ice shield be immune to slow, gold shield be immune to don't move and mythril shield be immune to don't act so that way lets say you have a wizard or someone with black magic and you can heal them without inflicting bad status on them by accident. Gives the players more freedom to choose other equips without being locked to certain equips to have status immunity. i.e grand cross for most cases you need elemental absorption and angel ring to prevent blind
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 18, 2013, 06:23:49 am
There also needs to be Immune Blind on at least 1 shield
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 18, 2013, 06:43:53 am
If mythril shield with don't act immunity doesn't sound good then go with the blind immunity like Malroth suggested so we can see kiku grand crosses from paladins
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 18, 2013, 10:26:00 am
There is already Diamond Armor for Blind immunity.  Making a blind-proof shield will do more for Grand-Cross squires than armor-classes by freeing up squires' accessory slot.  Grand-Cross squires are already pretty scary.  We sure we want to buff them?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 18, 2013, 12:19:22 pm
I was thinking for earth absorbing paladins using kikuchimoji as a weapon and the mythril shield absorbing earth while being immune to blind spices up some setups considering if someone wanted to use kiku grand cross aside only being able to use kiku, mythril shield, cross helm, diamond armor, rubber shoes because that's the only setup that can work for earth absorbing grand cross for paladins.

Even if you switch mythril shied with gold shield and rubber shoes with diamond armlet its still essentially the same ideal setup
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 19, 2013, 08:07:18 pm
Well for one, Squires can't even equip any Earth Weapons, but what can are Geomancers. Allowing a Geomancer to use Giant Axe in tandem with Blind Proof Mythril Shield would increase it's damage from 170 to 210. But in case I'm wrong (well, if the Master Guide is wrong again) then Squires' Giant Grand Cross will go from 200 damage to 220 damage. Compare that to Squire's Brand Cross with 280 damage.

It's not a really helpful change because it's not freeing up your accessory slot during Grand Crossing. Even outside of that application, it would still be a dubious choice because of it's Lightning Weakness. It would only be handy used in Earth Absorb teams when you need Blind protection.

I think these Elemental Shields need much more help than simple status proofing. I say either remove the elemental weaknesses or give them weapons that complement them. The latter, the idea of creating Weapons that cancel the shield's corresponding weakness was something I suggested in my changes for Elemental Spear changes. Perhaps they'd be suited for the Elemental Swords instead?

Of course a third option would be give them stronger bonuses but that feels like going in the wrong direction somehow.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on October 20, 2013, 02:25:42 am
Inside of Riovanes Castle should be classifed as a Small map since every unit starts  within attack range of the entire enemy team.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 20, 2013, 09:16:20 am
I was thinking more along the lines of Grand Cross squires with Air Knives, Ice Brands, and FDC's Phoenix Blade (14 WP fire element sword).  Together with Yell and Wish buffs, they will be pretty versatile.  Then again, the free accessory slot will come at the price of lightning weakness, so it might not be so bad.

On the subject of elemental shields, they should become more usable if FFMaster decides to reduce the weakness modifier.

Edit:

Attached are graph assessing the 1.39 arsenal of a selection of jobs.  Damage does not consider brave nor faith.  Each data series' minimum value represents no XA optimisation (i.e. maximum freedom in the choice of equipment), whereas each series maximum value represents maximum XA optimisation (i.e. no freedom in the choice of equipment).

Archer
========
To reflect the advantage of gun's 100% hit rate, guns are used with (Magic) Attack UP, whereas non-guns are used with Concentrate.  Elemental strengthening is applied if applicable.

Stone Gun: 12 WP, Attack UP, Concentrate
Glacier Gun: 12 WP, Cast: Nether Ice, Magic Attack UP, element strengthened, Concentrate
Ultimus Bow: 15 WP, Concentrate
Silver Bow: 13 WP, 40% Cast: Holy, element strengthened, Concentrate
Silencer: 12 WP, Concentrate

Paladin
========
Ice Brand: 14 WP, 20% Cast: Ice 2, Attack UP, element strengthened
Chaos Blade: 17 WP, Attack UP
Kikuichimonji: 10 WP, 25% Cast: Quake, Attack UP, element strengthened

Samurai
========
Koutetsu: 10 WP, Attack UP, Two Hands, element strengthened
Bizen Boat: 9 WP, 100% Cast: Sinkhole, Attack UP, Two Hands
Kiyomori: 10 WP, 50% Cast: Bio, Attack UP, Two Hands
Kikuichimonji, 10 WP, 25% Cast: Quake, Attack UP, Two Hands, element strengthened
Chiridiraden, 10 WP, +1 PA, Attack UP, Two Hands

Thief
========
Dual Cutters: 8 WP, 50% Cast: Double Attack, Two Swords
Katar: 11 WP, +1 PA, Two Hands
Air Knife: 13 WP, Attack UP, element strengthened
Lionheart: 10 WP, +2 PA, Two Hands
Coral Sword: 8 WP, 25% Cast: Suiton, Two Hands, element strengthened
Tactician's Blade: 14 WP, Attack UP

All right.  Back to work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 26, 2013, 01:03:36 pm
In addition, here are graphs showing how Stone Gun and Glacier gun measure up to non-guns with Concentrate.  Weapons are wielded by the most competent class.  Elemental strengthening is applied when applicable.  Only a selection of the most powerful weapons are shown.  All other weapons (harps, knives, et cetera) have lower damage.  The 1.39 version of weapons are considered unless otherwise stated.

The first graph compares Stone Gun and Glacier Gun (both 1.38 and 1.39 versions) to the most powerful weapons that can be wielded with shields, namely Ice Brand, Lionheart, Tactician's Blade, and Coral Sword.  Also, Silencer is included as the most powerful ranged weapon usable with a shield.  Clearly, Stone Gun and 1.38 Glacier Gun outperform every weapon at low XA (i.e. no XA stacking).  With the exception of Ice Brand, only at high to maximum stacking do weapons begin to outperform Stone Gun.  Realistically, this amounts to devoting 3~4 of the 4 available equipment slots for stacking.  As for 1.38 Glacier Gun, it outperforms all weapons except Ice Brand at high stacking and Tactician's Blade at maximum stacking.

The second graph compares Stone Gun and 1.38 Glacier Gun to the most powerful two-handed weapons, namely Ultimus Bow, Silver Bow, Chaos Blade, Kikuichimoji, and Gastrafitis.  (Other katana, while also strong, are omitted as they are weaker than Kikuichimoji.)  With the exception of Kikuichimoji, Stone Gun once again outperforms every other weapon at no stacking.  However, it is outperformed by Chaos Blade at modest stacking and Gastrafitis at high stacking.  As for 1.38 Glacier Gun, it yet outperforms all weapons that are not highly stacked.

I present two conclusions.  First, Stone Gun is too powerful to be categorised as a weapon that is usable with shields.  In spite of opinions expressed elsewhere, its damage is, in fact, large at equal hit rate.  Second, 1.38 Glacier Gun is too powerful for any category of weapon and should therefore have its damage reduced.  Bear in mind that these two guns also have the advantage of 6 range.

As a corollary, katana, particularly Kikuichimonji, are slated to become the most powerful weapons in 1.39.  Mind you, they are powerful only on male samurai.  Male samurai have only 3 move and katana have only 1 range, so it will be difficult to make the most of katana's power.  (Or, at least, more difficult than 1.38 spellguns.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 26, 2013, 05:59:43 pm
So are you saying that Stone Gun's Initial: Petrify isn't enough anymore? Or rather, hasn't been enough? Granted, making it Forced Two Hands would take the edge off of Stone Gunners, particularly when they're build to speed. We could give them Initial: Stop in addition to Initial: Petrify, so that it'll take two turns or two units to ready them for battle.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 26, 2013, 08:06:04 pm
One thing I'm a firm believer in is showcasing that results matter.  While I never would have believed it without seeing it, Stone Gun is indeed OP when maximized.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 27, 2013, 11:07:51 am
Just making Stone Gun force-2H is okay with me.  This is a pretty modest change, as it primarily affects only Archers.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on November 04, 2013, 04:07:13 am
I'm definately becoming a fan of the idea of Dual elements for Lore so that its easier to grab accidental immunity for non lore Teams

How'd i'd Run it.
Malestrom Water/Darkness
Earth Dragon   Earth/Fire
Thunder Flare Bolt/Holy
Rime Bolt Wind/Ice
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 11, 2013, 01:05:27 am
(Blegh. I've now forgotten what the next thing I was going to do was, but seeing as how 1.39 has come out in the two-ish months I've been "gone", I suppose there's still time.)

Thanks for the charts, Gaignun. That was rather informative. I concur that the only "debuff" Stone Gun probably needs is to lose its ability to be used with Shields. I've been saying that I don't understand why Guns--at least these rifle-type guns--can be used with Shields for a while, however, so that's not really surprising.

Similarly, while I also don't remember there being any (explicit) call for a "breaking gun", I can get behind making a Rainbow (Shell) Gun that is essentially still a healing gun for elemental absorption, even if that kinda steps on the now Nether Spellgun's toes. Was that was actually being proposed though? I'm a bit confused as with regards to that.

Ugh. I have so much to catch up on....

Since they were the last things that were discussed before Gaignun's charts and I'm still against dual element anything at present, I'll just say that I can get behind Dokurider's Spear suggestions...save for Mythril Spear perhaps. Ice is arguably already becoming the most screwed over element with the change to Coral Ring going in 1.39. Still, it could still work.... Really, I'm honestly probably more skeptical of the boost that new Obelisk might give, especially since Equip Polearms should be getting more usable going into 1.39.

Shrug.

I really don't remember the spears Gaignun posted at all, so I guess there's more I missed despite 71 being the last page I think I posted on.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 21, 2013, 11:22:52 am
I just noticed that in the spreadsheet scholars are allowed to equip daggers
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 28, 2013, 12:40:53 am
Random thought:

Crystal Shield: 30 P-EV, 0 M-EV, absorb Dark, weak Holy

Purpose: To give armoured units an easier way to absorb friendly Demi.

Balance: Armoured units can cover the Holy weakness with Chameleon Robe, whereas clothed units (i.e. Squires and Geomancers) will need to depend on Magic Ring or Small Mantle, neither of which suits these classes.  As a result, Crystal Shield is not expected to mingle with Black Costume to double the prevalence of Dark absorption on clothed units.  Armoured units can swap Chameleon Robe for armour to increase the effect of Demi healing at the cost of using the above-mentioned Magic Ring or Small Mantle, which also do not suit these classes, or simply living with the weakness.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 28, 2013, 06:45:34 am
That actually may work better then neutralizing elements because hardly anyone uses the crystal shield or if they did it was on undead armored units like paladins and lancers. But otherwise, the crystal shield was just used randomly. This would give it more appeal to dark and holy absorb teams
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on December 25, 2013, 12:48:27 pm
Should stop be re-added to Nameless dance?  It's often touted as the most worthless of the dances.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on December 25, 2013, 01:33:16 pm
Maybe put don'tact or don't move so nameless dance can be somewhat more useful
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on December 25, 2013, 02:16:06 pm
Quote from: Barren on December 25, 2013, 01:33:16 pm
Maybe put don'tact or don't move so nameless dance can be somewhat more useful


Don't move over Don't Act.  Don't act is really crippling.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on December 25, 2013, 03:07:31 pm
So is Don't Move if it's used correctly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on December 25, 2013, 03:57:18 pm
I guess so if you're paranoid about jumping missing which rarely happens. I'm sure there are other methods of using don't move
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on December 25, 2013, 10:52:12 pm
Nameless Dance is worthless because the dancer using it won't do anything else.  The culprit is slow (which has the same AI priority as haste, i.e. one tier less than scoring a KO), and probably should be replaced with don't move.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 26, 2013, 08:49:08 pm
well its worthless not because the AI sees it as "50% slow for the whole enemy team" but because every single status that can give a turn advantage has been ripped out of it.  Don't move added to the list is the bare minimum needed to make it usable but Don't Act or Charm would make it worth actually putting on a unit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on January 01, 2014, 03:10:16 pm
What about adding confusion and don't move and taking away oil for nameless dance? I agree that don't act is really crippling and proccing even 2 of these could really open up to the team to an onslaught. Don't move can also potentially cripple units, but more so when the Player or AI is specifically trying to inflict it. All of these statii are primarily going to be annoyances that slowly cripple a team if said team cant get to the dancer first and all are relatively easily curable, but if the statii stack, will put the said team in trouble.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on January 01, 2014, 04:29:12 pm
I personally wouldn't mind seeing ND add Don't Move. But Confuse? Please, no. Don't Act might make it a bit too strong though, but I suppose it would come down to how the AI uses it in the long run. If the problem with ND really IS slow, then yes something should be done about it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 01, 2014, 04:51:23 pm
Confusion is banned because of an game breaking AI quirk. The AI will ignore confused units, much like Death Sentence. Unlike Death Sentence, Confuse will never expire, and the AI will never move to break Confusion. So when there is one unit left and it's confused, the AI will never finish it off unless Confuse is broken. Hence why it was removed from Arena.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on January 01, 2014, 05:19:08 pm
Oh goodness, sorry. I never even noticed it was banned! That does make a lot of sense though. It could potentially create an endless match if a bunch of defensive, self healing units couldn't one shot the confused unit.

So, what about poison and don't move? Again, a relatively easily curable status effect that doesnt do a ton in its own right, but could tear away if left unchecked.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on January 01, 2014, 05:25:36 pm
Highly doubt it'll get poison because of Wiznaibus which also inflicts poison at a small chance.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 23, 2014, 12:25:20 pm
I like to bring up (even though I'm sure its been brought up before) positives and negatives of Cursed Rings. Its going to be a brief list since I don't usually type winded posts. So here we go:

Positives: Negates Holy. Absorbs Dark. Plus 1 stats on PA, MA and speed. Ways to block fire weakness i.e. Black Costume, Flame Shield, White Robe and Crystal Shield. Effective on melee units that are for DPS. Full heal with Death spell and Demi 1/2 healing since both are dark elemental. Always comes back. Can find ways to prevent other weaknesses though not everything. And finally can make for entertaining matches (see lightninghax firmly grasp it vs dokurider bomb squad).

Negatives: OU. Can be killed with potions and raise 1/2. Any fire attacks will hurt if weakness not covered. Petrified with seal evil, ancient sword or petrify spell from Oracle skillset. Can be stolen with steal accessory. Can be killed with consecration (though it rarely happens anymore). And finally can drag on matches or end quicker than you would desire.

So why am I bringing this up? Well to simply point out that Cursed Ring is too good of an accessory since its basically OU. hey ran rampant in the last tournament and people are still using Cursed Rings. I think it should be revamped somehow (unless people are happy the way cursed rings are of course). It was just something that I thought about for a long time and while I too am guilty of using a cursed ring team I can personally attest to the fact that while its good, it seems now getting old to the point where we've seen strategies using cursed ring before. Hopefully next release (whenever that will be) will have significant changes to Cursed Ring. I'm not saying don't use it ever but think if you really need to use Cursed Ring on your team
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on January 23, 2014, 03:23:28 pm
Quote from: Barren on January 23, 2014, 12:25:20 pm
I like to bring up (even though I'm sure its been brought up before) positives and negatives of Cursed Rings. Its going to be a brief list since I don't usually type winded posts. So here we go:

Positives: Negates Holy. Absorbs Dark. Plus 1 stats on PA, MA and speed. Ways to block fire weakness i.e. Black Costume, Flame Shield, White Robe and Crystal Shield. Effective on melee units that are for DPS. Full heal with Death spell and Demi 1/2 healing since both are dark elemental. Always comes back. Can find ways to prevent other weaknesses though not everything. And finally can make for entertaining matches (see lightninghax firmly grasp it vs dokurider bomb squad).

Negatives: OU. Can be killed with potions and raise 1/2. Any fire attacks will hurt if weakness not covered. Petrified with seal evil, ancient sword or petrify spell from Oracle skillset. Can be stolen with steal accessory. Can be killed with consecration (though it rarely happens anymore). And finally can drag on matches or end quicker than you would desire.

So why am I bringing this up? Well to simply point out that Cursed Ring is too good of an accessory since its basically OU. hey ran rampant in the last tournament and people are still using Cursed Rings. I think it should be revamped somehow (unless people are happy the way cursed rings are of course). It was just something that I thought about for a long time and while I too am guilty of using a cursed ring team I can personally attest to the fact that while its good, it seems now getting old to the point where we've seen strategies using cursed ring before. Hopefully next release (whenever that will be) will have significant changes to Cursed Ring. I'm not saying don't use it ever but think if you really need to use Cursed Ring on your team


I'm glad this is being brought up. I agree - Cursed Ring right now is a big problem that needs to be addressed. In my opinion, the problem with Cursed Ring is the fact that it has very little drawbacks to use it. Well, that plus Immune: Crystal and the fact that it comes with 6 other stats that help the unit. When used correctly with the right combination of equips and/or R/S/M, and if it's the right type of unit, the positives far outweigh the negatives. And when you add skills like Quickening to the equation and it gets even more powerful. Cursed Ring simply does not punish the player enough to use it. I, too, have teams that use Cursed Ring, and know how powerful it really is.

Compare it to Phoenix Blade. Phoenix Blade is similar to Cursed Ring. Yeah, it has auto-reraise, but Phoenix Blade isn't used nearly as much as Cursed Ring thanks to its auto-slow. The auto-slow alone hurts the unit for having it equipped, and as we should all know by now, slow is very powerful in Arena and no one wants a slowed unit in a match as it gives the other team a distinct advantage. Not to mention that only a few classes can use the Phoenix Blade (without having to use Equip Light Blade, anyway), and all of those classes (except Thief) are base 8 speed units. And if that wasn't crippling enough, the unit is also immune to Haste. Two devastating drawbacks for the Phoenix Blade's auto-reraise stat makes it balanced.

Cursed Ring, though? Useable by anyone. This includes thieves, which are probably one of the best users of Cursed Ring. What devastating side effect does it have? It has none. Auto-undead doesn't really count; sure you can get one-shotted by Raise 2, but you can build a team to work around that; drain the caster's MP, status him/her, kill him/her; there's plenty of ways. Weak: Fire sure as hell doesn't count; as you mentioned, plenty of ways to work around it very easily. So it might as well not be there period.

My point is, Cursed Ring doesn't have any drawbacks to using it. Auto-undead and Weak: Fire doesn't cut it for all the stats it gives. Either there needs to be a crippling drawback(s) to use it, ala Phoenix Blade, or it needs to lose Immune: Crystal. That's my two cents on the matter. The fact that it virtually has no drawbacks has made it a go-to accessory for some teams. There's a reason why I've said in the past the Cursed Ring is one of the dumbest things in Arena.



Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on January 23, 2014, 04:49:05 pm
Actually, it's main drawbacks is that you're dead for 3 turns, which can cause a serious momentum loss. It's one of the reasons why I ended up dropping Curse Ring from Bomb Squad, not to mention you come back with a random amount of HP.

Still, I subscribe to the solution of taking away it's guaranteed revival after three turns. That way, it may revive after three turns, or maybe four, or five or even more. It should still be immune to crystal, because otherwise we'll be right back to where we started. Combined with taking away it's Cancel: Holy and +1 Speed and it should end up well balanced as well as lowering the speed of the overall metagame.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on January 23, 2014, 07:54:58 pm
I was thinking about this...maybe a good way to balance it would be Always: Oil. I mean...most teams have some kind of elemental and you wouldn't have to take away dark or holy resistance. Fact is though...those teams with the cursed ring that don't give fire immunity or at least get rid of the weakness...their units go down fast to fire.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 23, 2014, 07:58:09 pm
Always oil is not a good idea on cursed ring users because that leaves them extremely vulnerable to any elemental attacks. Plus you can always inflict oil anyways and use a elemental attack that way. It defeats the purpose of hawk's eye and short edge inflicting oil.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on February 02, 2014, 04:51:22 am
removing null holy from cursed ring is a must. it just strangles out the whole holy equipment set, and now dark is the #1 most used/absorbed team and holy must fall dead last, when in all of FF history, holy has been this all-powerful spell, and still is, but diminished by dark skillsets and the use of cursed ring.

i like the weak: holy idea. should be like that for all undead units anyway. it's hard to touch this one as so many people use it and it has become a staple in the game. i agree it's overpowered, but we don't wanna piss anybody off either.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on February 05, 2014, 01:53:37 am
Loose the speed loose the null holy and i'd be fine with cursed ring   although i'm still wanting another Null crystal equipment even if it requires someone else have to raise you manually.


Edit:   Always Faith on Cursed ring would be a Great drawback since its always used on fighter types.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on February 06, 2014, 01:09:00 am
Quote from: Malroth on February 05, 2014, 01:53:37 am
Loose the speed loose the null holy and i'd be fine with cursed ring   although i'm still wanting another Null crystal equipment even if it requires someone else have to raise you manually.


Edit:   Always Faith on Cursed ring would be a Great drawback since its always used on fighter types.


lol then you'll get some nasty lore users with always faith and never crystal. that would be a whole next problem to balance. also disagree with the new null crystal item idea. crystallization is something that is supposed to happen. plain and simple. cursed ring is obviously the exception and already being debated for re-balancing. you could see a game literally go on forever if both teams don't have any sort of crystallization and start popping back up at random times.

i think the real issue here is undead not being a big enough drawback for people to even consider it a drawback, or the very RARE usage of the "undead" spell because of the lackluster overall power of it. i know many people are opposed to dual anything, but would you consider a dual weakness fair? weak:holy, fire? perhaps initial petrify or frog or something like that?

well, i'm still relatively new and by no means a programmer, so all i can do is spitball ideas. is this something discussed before and already planned for a change, or should we sift through what must and must not go? or is it just gonna stay that way and everyone should stop complaining?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on February 06, 2014, 02:12:24 am
not popping back up at random but sticking around dead without a timer like Delita or Algus untill a resurection capable unit brings them back
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on March 10, 2014, 09:53:32 pm
I was thinking about the confusion status...is there a way to add it back in but put a CT on it to avoid endless matches? It could be long or short but might help out as far as balance is concerned. I think the Ancient Sword proccing petrify is a bit OP at times personally...but proccing confusion I wouldn't mind so much. If the CT was limited, I think this could really be a status that would be interesting to see and add some spice to some of the matches. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 24, 2014, 05:52:44 pm
Well, the other thing about Confusion is that it's plain inferior even beyond it's persistence. Confuse is one of those statuses that the AI ignores, and while Death Sentence and Charm have a pay off, Confuse doesn't. Maybe you'll get the AI to attack their allies, maybe they'll just waste turns, or maybe they'll just attack you anyways. Charm is better at turning allies against each other, and Sleep, Don't Act, Frog...um, almost every other control status out there really, is better at shutting down units than Confuse ever will be. All you have is a status that doesn't control well enough, yet the AI ignores anyways, often to it's detriment. It's just a liability and was outright inferior for anyone that choose to use it back then. Confuse would have be completely and utterly rewritten to be useful.

Of course, this is just a guess on my part. I wasn't there when the decision to remove it was made.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on March 24, 2014, 06:03:19 pm
The biggest reason for its removal is because the AI ignores Confused units. If the remaining unit on a team was Confused, the AI would just derp around, and the match would go on indefinitely (though obviously at that point you can call one side the winner).

Doku also makes excellent reasons for Confuse being really meh in comparison to other statuses.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 26, 2014, 09:27:11 am
On the subject of status effects, I've been thinking of ways to reduce the overreliance on White Magick for support.  I wonder how feasible coding the following status effects are.

Curtain: Add "Halve: all elements" (basically an "anti-oil." Whether it expires on hit is optional.)
Amplify: Add "Strengthen: all elements"
Veil: Add "Immune: all status effects" (or a limited number of status effects)
Transparent: Increase P-EV/M-EV (or both) by 50% (for a single hit or a short time)
Celerity: Add "Short Charge"

To help against the AI's general stupidity at applying anything proactively other than Haste, I'm thinking of having these buffs added using weak healing spells or to a version of the Haste spell itself.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on March 26, 2014, 11:01:04 am
I'm just wondering when in the world is FFMaster going to start working on 1.39? Did he disappear off the face of the earth or something? We all haven't heard from him in a long time
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 26, 2014, 02:35:10 pm
Maybe!  It's been nearly one year since the 1.39 summary was written.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on March 26, 2014, 04:44:24 pm
Pretty certain I've seen a few videos on Youtube from FFM about 2 months back. Other than that, I dunno what is going on with him.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: ShadowDragon15 on March 27, 2014, 04:10:04 pm
I'd like to see Asura get a 33% chance to proc Oil. It might help Asura get used more often. I think of it as a nearly forgotten Draw Out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on March 28, 2014, 09:25:23 pm
Well, in this case, we could also argue that Stop is worse than petrify. They do the same exact things, but Petrify essentially kills them and has no end CT. It also gives the AI less to do since they dont have to do anything to that unit, but would still have to kill a Stopped unit. Does this mean that Stop should be eliminated in the game since it is inferior to petrify?

Putting an end CT to confusion could make it a viable status for abilities like Nameless Dance, a proc for Ancient Sword or Parry Edge, or making an ability like Beguile more balanced. Commentators often say that Beguile is a rarely used ability due to its low accuracy. Since confusion is not as strong as Charm, the accuracy being raised a bit might make it more balanced and more popular.

In any event, I know it is an unpopular choice, but just an interesting thought for an option. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on March 29, 2014, 12:35:27 am
Quote from: silentkaster on March 28, 2014, 09:25:23 pm
Well, in this case, we could also argue that Stop is worse than petrify. They do the same exact things, but Petrify essentially kills them and has no end CT. It also gives the AI less to do since they dont have to do anything to that unit, but would still have to kill a Stopped unit. Does this mean that Stop should be eliminated in the game since it is inferior to petrify?


Petrify, the status, is very good.  However you can't take it alone in a vacuum.  There are more skills that proc stop.  Stop is a harder status to heal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on March 29, 2014, 05:53:32 pm
Quote from: reinoe on March 29, 2014, 12:35:27 am
Petrify, the status, is very good.  However you can't take it alone in a vacuum.  There are more skills that proc stop.  Stop is a harder status to heal.


Right, and thats exactly my point. To say "The status is inferior" or simply "not as good" as a different status alone is not a reason to delete it. Take "Blind" for instance. Blind as it stood in Vanilla was not even relevant a huge portion of the time and when it was, it was generally a tiny inconvenience if that. Concentrate could still ignore Blind, and going in from the back suffered no penalty. It was rewritten in Arena to a very annoying, and often game changing, status. Having a Blind Berserked unit spells huge trouble for that team and is almost always a huge detriment and even Blind by itself can really hamper physical fighters now.

Similar logic for poison...the biggest reason poison is a more viable status is persisting through death and the long CT count. PD is pretty useless on a poisoned unit if they can't instantly heal and/or cure the poison.

Confusion isn't as strong as charm, and that's for sure. But DA? The Confusion still removes evade and might make the enemy advance rather than fall back (which may or may not be what you want). No, it isn't as good as charm nor should it be (in my opinion). Perhaps a longer CT than Charm or not being able to heal yourself from confusion (except by randomness) might make it a good balance?

BTW, this isnt a game make or break for me...it's just an interesting thought I had about this particular status.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on March 31, 2014, 04:20:16 pm
Yeah Confuse would be good, if it was changed. I think another reason it was thrown out was that space at the time was at a premium, and trying to make room in Attributes for a less then helpful status just wasn't happening. And hacking statuses, to paraphrase Raven, is a pain. To quote the FFHwiki:

QuoteCurrent limitations:
1) We can only currently change the CT on spells that already respect CT; we cannot add new CTs to spells that previously don't end (0 CT = status doesn't end).
2) Some status effects (like berserk or charm) require an enemy attack or spell to grant the status effect in order to function properly, and some don't function at all when cast on the player (such as invite).
3) One cannot inflict the jump status without glitching the game; charging, defend, jump, and perform cannot be voided with "cannot stack on top of" by any status effect except the ones given.
4) Even if Ignore Attacks is removed, units with the status still usually cannot be targeted by the player or AI.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Status_Effects
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: ShadowDragon15 on April 11, 2014, 10:56:20 am
Just a quick note on the Cursed Ring. Thanks to TL's elemental video, I noticed that Dark has nothing but absorb items, and Holy has only absorb or null items. Maybe to make the cursed ring more fair, would be to change it's absorb dark to null or half dark. and null holy to half holy.

Personally, I would lean to null dark and half holy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on May 29, 2014, 11:01:07 am
CT5Holy and I were discussing last week that Moonlight should perhaps have cancel: regen because we need a way to make the blade beam proc more useful. You can still run move-hp up with it and still have the at good enough health in my opinion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on June 02, 2014, 01:24:42 pm
I don't really see what that would accomplish besides weakening the weapon. The AI is going to heal and you shouldn't prevent that. The truth is, you can't realistically get a lot of damage out of this weapon. The best you can hope for is 30-50% shot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on June 05, 2014, 06:26:20 pm
Berserk really needs an overhaul,  We can't give it a CT that wears off and on mages it pretty much is a 100% instant nonrevivable death. My fix would be to have it curable by all the things that cure Charm and adjust the equipment that gives it on purpose to have ALWAYS instead of INITIAL berserk
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: JamesOnyx on June 23, 2014, 11:46:37 pm
I've been coming in here every now and then, usually a couple times a month and haven't really been seeing too much activity concerning 1.39 since I was last here.  Is the proposal summary posted last year still basically what we're looking at or are the changes discussed semi recently in this thread looking to be implemented?

And I agree with Malroth for the most part on adjusting Berserk, but any Mage should probably be wearing equipment to protect themselves from it in the first place.  Or at least have an item bot that resists it to heal them if needed.  Mages (besides Priests) seem to have the hardest time in 1.38 though so perhaps some general adjusting is in order.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on August 21, 2014, 12:18:42 pm
("Raise from your grave.")

...And give me (and Gaignun) something to do as we wait for FFMaster to (maybe) come back and for Round 2 of Losers in the current tournament to begin. (Something to do apparently includes having to type all this again. Sigh, I loathe Chrome, even if it's partly this desktop's fault.)

I "need" to catch up on what happened in this thread while I was away anyway though, especially since I know that I promised something I probably didn't get around to before my sudden leave.

Regardless, I was in the middle of working on something  just now and it occurred to me to ask what people thought about a "solution" I had to Cloths given they're arguably the most uncertain weapon group at present outside of Staves and maybe Spears:


Persia: WP: 8; W-EV%: 40; Range: 2; Element: None; +2 Speed; 2H: No; 2S: No.
[Currently: WP: 12; W-EV%: 10; Range: 2; Element: None; Initial: Protect; 2H: No; 2S: No.]

Cashmere: WP: 10; W-EV%: 25; Range: 2; Initial: Float & Reraise; Element: None; 2H: No; 2S: No.
[Currently: WP: 12; W-EV%: 10; Range: 2; Element: None; Initial: Shell; 2H: No; 2S: No.]

Ryozan Silk: WP: 12; W-EV%: 10; Range: 2; Element: None; Initial: Reflect; 2H: No; 2S: No.
[Currently: The exact same.]


I think the changes to Persia and Cashmere would still be quite useful to Dancers without having to step on the toes of two Knight Swords, two Perfumes and most other equipment by becoming Always: Protect and Always: Shell respectively like some people were suggesting. Additionally, this would have the benefit of saving two  of the currently all-used-up Item Attribute spaces since after Save the Queen and Ragnarok go back to being Always: Protect and Always: Shell respectively--provided we're still doing that--nothing needs Initial: Protect or Initial: Shell.

Of course, in sharing so, Persia somewhat steps on the toes of Javelin (I) and Cashmere somewhat steps on the toes of Diamond Helmet, but I see no harm in somewhat buffing either of those items either, especially if people thought it so necessary. This even if Dancer can use neither Javelin (I) nor Diamond Helmet naturally and no one else can currently use Cloths at all; incidentally, the above changes makes me way more comfortable with Cloths maybe becoming part of Equip Polearm(s).

Anyway, I highly doubt that Javelin (I) would suddenly become overpowered with a weapon power improved by a point or two, even if it might have to lose its Two Hands compatibility. That would hardly be a loss since no one is using on Two Hands their Javelin-wielding Item-bot Lancers anyway and Javelin is rarely, if ever, used on any other type of unit. Similarly, I highly doubt that Diamond Helmet, which barely sees any use as it is, would suddenly become overpowering if it got a slight buff to its HP or maybe even (also) got a slight bit of MP.

Shrug.


****

Quote from: Malroth on June 05, 2014, 06:26:20 pm
Berserk really needs an overhaul,  We can't give it a CT that wears off and on mages it pretty much is a 100% instant nonrevivable death. My fix would be to have it curable by all the things that cure Charm and adjust the equipment that gives it on purpose to have ALWAYS instead of INITIAL berserk


I still don't see why we can't just use the CT clock that Reflect is no longer using, partly because no one who knows how to code has ever answered that. Reflect in ARENA currently has a CT of 0 now and so is effectively "infinite", at least for 255 CTs, and is thus literally not using its CT clock anymore. In fact, in thinking about this now, giving its clock space to Berserk would probably "fix" that by having Reflect become actually infinite like how Blind and Silence currently (unfortunately) are. I'm not sure how difficult it might actually be given I'm still utterly ignorant of and rubbish at understanding anything coding related, but it seems like a valid solution.

Of course, I'm not going to order anyone to do that, including FFMaster. Still, it seems like the best solution given how problematic current infinite-until-death Berserk

Regardless, I also agree that Salty Rage (and Genji Helmet I guess) should go back to Always: Berserk as well as also getting Immune: Blind, even as obnoxious as that might be with Concentrate back (or Stone Gun). That's not really surprising since I suggested the same thing already about a year ago myself, given that I felt the few people who wanted to use Salty Rage (or Genji Helmet) didn't deserve to be further disadvantaged by not having access to Berserk-healing just because their team might misuse it and negate the items in question.


Quote from: JamesOnyx on June 23, 2014, 11:46:37 pm
And I agree with Malroth for the most part on adjusting Berserk, but any Mage should probably be wearing equipment to protect themselves from it in the first place.  Or at least have an item bot that resists it to heal them if needed.  Mages (besides Priests) seem to have the hardest time in 1.38 though so perhaps some general adjusting is in order.


That said, I also agree with this in that, for the most part, Mages generally have good enough ways to get around Berserk, if only because the current version of Defense Ring is really, really good. Given that's only getting slightly nerfed and the Immune: Berserk isn't changing there...yeah. And say that as someone who once got (hilariously) Berserked in ARENA while wielding a Healing Staff.

Not I would mind a new Robe Clothing or a new Hat that blocked Berserk given all the equipment space that currently sits unused in ARENA, but that's as far as I think it would need to go in combating Berserk specifically for mages. Esuna & Stigma Magic are already kind of obnoxiously buff and making them even stronger doesn't seem like a good thing, at least to me.

Besides, I'd readily argue that current Poison status is way more detrimental to mages than current Berserk status is. Most of the skill sets that can do anything about Poison instantly--particularly Basic Skill, Item,  Punch Art and technically Chivalry if you've no Light Robe or P Bag--aren't skill sets that mages ever tend to use as Secondaries. The only common skill set for mages that instantly takes care of Poison is Draw Out, which really doesn't need to get any stronger. If anything, it probably needs a bit of a nerf, if only to  Murasame and/or Masamune.

(Similarly, this is why Light Robe kinda sucks on actual mages currently besides their squishiness: get Poisoned with that thing on and you stay Poisoned unless you have something that specifically cancels Poison and doesn't just add Regen. Notice how this thus eliminates Draw Out or at least Masamune as an option for mages.)

This is why I still inwardly grumble a bit about the "fixes" to White Magic's Cure spells that Gaignun provided. I still agree with them, but making the already strong White Magic, arguably one of the strongest and certainly among the most used skill sets, even stronger and more necessary for support just rubs me the wrong way. This even if Holy is finally seeing a bit of a necessary nerf in at least a couple of areas.

Of course, aside from the re-shortened CT that Poison is probably getting going into 1.39 ARENA, if that ever is, there aren't really many obvious, feasible solutions. Sure, the most obvious one would be to make it so that Poison and Regen go back to not lasting after death, but I'm...surprisingly ambivalent about that currently. The only other feasible solutions I can see would be to increase the number of equipment (accessible by mages) that blocks Poison or buff the pieces of equipment (accessible by mages) that do so or some combination thereof, as is happening with the suggested change for Defense Armlet; I'm fine with it becoming Immune: Poison, but I personally think Immune: Blind should be Immune: Oil for a couple of reasons.

Well, that or give one of the other support mage classes, likely Time Mage or Oracle, either some way of  anti-Poison technique or outright giving them Regen--probably Time Mage--since most White Mages don't use that anyway.

Shrug again, especially since 108 Gems is pretty good, at least for Summoner and Wizard.

TL; DR: Point stands that while current Berserk is really obnoxious, there's no reason to buff Esuna and Stigma Magic even more because of it, especially when it can probably be "easily" made finite by giving it Reflect's no-longer-used CT clock. That said, besides making a new Robe and/or Hat that blocks Berserk, we could maybe give cancel Berserk to that random "Misogi" ability Ninja is apparently (maybe) getting and then maybe give that to Thief instead since Ninja is "stealing" Heretic anyway and Thief currently isn't guaranteed to get anything to compensate. Moving "Misogi" to Thief if it cancels Berserk has the added benefit giving mages access to something that can instantly cancel Poison as well in a skill set they can actually use (unlike Ninjutsu), even if "Misogi" probably heals a few too many status currently and even if it would be need to changed to not only self-targeting.

Shrug again again.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on September 11, 2014, 05:05:55 pm
(I dislike technically double posting, but, of course, both Malroth and Gaignun seem to have promptly disappeared as soon as I put that last post up. At least JamesOnyx was only ever sporadically around to begin with since he's still kinda new.)

So, in continuing with what I was talking about in the last post and in remembering that, no, normally there aren't that many Robe spaces despite what I've done with other patches, I've of course been thinking about this more. With regards to the above, I've been thinking about that piece of Immune: Berserk equipment. "We" could easily get away with making an Immune: Berserk Hat given there's a bunch of Hat space still and it wouldn't take up another Item Attribute space since Wizard Mantle is currently Immune: Berserk and nothing else. Making said piece of equipment a Hat would be far better than making it a piece of Clothing in my opinion, if primarily for the sake of mages. They have more to fear from Berserk by design than other classes do, even with potential change of Scholar into the more close-combat-suited Druid.

At present, as I said above, even among just the vaguely agreed upon proposals, I think that ARENA would be going over the actually available Item Attribute space by about three entries. This even though there's still a moderately large amount of unused equipment space, at least in the shield and armor section, and even though we never agreed on what Crystal Shield "should" be:


CURRENTLY UNUSED EQUIPMENT SPACE IN ARENA
1. 1 Knife/Dagger space unused (Zorlin Shape)

2. 2 Staff spaces unused (Oak Staff, Sage Staff)

3. 2 Longbow spaces unused (Yoichi Bow, Perseus Bow)

4. 1 Spear space unused (Javelin [II])

5. 3 Pole/Stick spaces unused (Cypress Pole, Battle Bamboo, Musk Pole)

6. All 3 Shuriken spaces unused

7. All 3 Ball/Bomb spaces unused

8. 4 Shield spaces unused (Escutcheon [regular], Buckler, Bronze Shield, Round Shield)

9. 3 Helm(et) spaces unused (Leather Helm[et], Bronze Helm[et], Iron Helm[et])

10. 5 Hat spaces unused (Leather Hat, Feather Hat, Red Hood, Headgear, Triangle Hat)

11. 6 Heavy Armor spaces unused (Leather Armor, Linen Cuirass, Brozen Bronze Armor, Chain Mail, Mythril Armor, Plate Mail)

12. 6 Clothing spaces unused (Clothes, Leather Outfit, Leather Vest, Chain Vest, Mythril Vest, Adaman Vest)


All Accessory spaces are (obviously) used and, as I corrected above, so are all Robe spaces. I guess you could count Elixir's space as unused and argue it could be made into something else, but meh. To me, Chemist is already on the verge of healing too many statuses, especially with both Confusion and Blood Suck (and Chicken, technically) being gone by necessity and it affecting most other negative status. (To those whom it isn't clear, Potion is still in use, but only for use in Auto-Potion.)

Regardless, as it stands now, only Heavy Armor and Clothing have more unused spaces than Hats, so I figure  that using at least two Hat spaces could have a significant benefit to the next version of ARENA. Why two of them? It's simple: one to make into an  anti-Berserk Hat and one to help split up Thief Hat without wasting more Item Attribute space that doesn't exist by just awkwardly cutting and pasting Halve: Water onto Green Beret from said Thief Hat:


PROPOSALS FOR NEW HATS
(Uses Gaignun's Color Coding - Navy = Neutral, Green = Buff, Maroon = Nerf, Red = Disputed/New Changes (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=9753.0))

1. (NEW!) Headgear: +70 HP; +0 MP; Immune: Berserk.

2. (NEW!) Triangle Hat: +60 HP, +20 MP; Halve: Wind, Earth & Water.

3. Green Beret: +80 HP; +35 MP; +1 Move, 1 Jump.

4. Black Hood: +110 HP; +50 MP.

5. Golden Hairpin: +70 HP; +50 MP; Strengthen: Holy & Dark. (+1 MA removed.)

6. Flash Hat: +80 HP; +35 MP; Initial: Innocent.

7. Thief Hat: +70 HP; +0 MP; +1 Speed. (Halve: Wind, Earth & Water removed; given to Triangle Hat.)


I never agreed with that initial Green Beret change of +1 Move, +1 Jump, Halve: Water, even though I agreed that Thief Hat needs a nerf. So this is obviously fine with me, especially given Thief Hat ends up nerfed more. I'm tempted to say that the now-nerfed Thief Hat should be 80 HP, but between my not agreeing that Twist Headband & Holy Miter should get 10 more HP, Speed being irksomely all-important in FFT and all the Speed getting into the next version of ARENA even with Quickening finally being destroyed--finally--and Cursed Ring losing its Speed point, I think it's probably fine at 70 HP.

Feel free to disagree though. (Hint hint.)

Regardless, that allows for two--technically three--new Hats without using up any Item Attributes, which also seems like a good thing. This especially when the alternative would have been to use one more Item Attribute in awkwardly buffing Green Beret, which you could just do through HP or MP or, hell, increasing Jump +1 to Jump +2 even if that would also affect Tactician's Blade.

...Of course, we could always scavenge at least one more Item Attribute space by finally taking Always: Transparent off the obnoxious weapon that is Hidden Knife.... I'll leave talking about that for next time though since, as always, I've already typed far more than enough.

P.S. We can probably forego giving Thief any curative abilities even if it's outright losing two abilities. Maybe people will actually use Ruin skills now (that they have to).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 14, 2014, 09:07:21 pm
Well, I disagree in part on the triangle hat receiving halving of those elements. I think that most people likely choose Thief Hat due to the +1 Speed, not the elemental halving. Due to that, I don't think many teams would use a hat that gives lower HP and halves those particular elements. The spells and abilities that use those elements aren't that popular or plentiful. If anything, I would add 20 HP and swap the White Robe/Triangle Hat elements (possibly with immunity to Berserk or Poison added to the White Robe). This would make them both viable choices since the Triangle Hat would half the spell gun damage (and be more accessible to more classes) while the Robe would give a good immunity and half three elements that aren't widely used. I realize Earth is a bit more used than Water and Wind, but Earth also has Float that can null that element.

That's just my opinion though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 02, 2014, 06:53:20 am
139 will be ready to be released soon, hopefully by the end of the week if there are no problems. Here is what has been changed:

Changelog (139)

EQUIPMENT

Knives
- Dual Cutters WP increased to 8
- Mage Masher proc rate reduced to 25%
- Air Knife WP decreased to 12, now properly adds sleep
- Orichalcum, Katar and Air Knife all lose 2H

Ninja Swords
- Hidden Knife WP increased to 10, W-EV reduced to 0 and loses 1 speed
- Short Edge Oil proc chance increased to 100%
- Ninja Edge WP reduced to 10, W-EV increased to 10, proc chance increased to 50%
- Spell Edge loses 1 MA, proc changed to 100% Add: Faith

Swords, not words!
- Phoenix Blade remade: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, -1 Speed, Fire Element, Initial: Reraise, No 2S/2H
STILL NEED TO DO -1 SPEED
- Tactician's Blade W-EV increased to 20
- Parry Edge replaced with Mystic Blade: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, 1 PA, 1 MA, 2H
- Coral Sword WP increased to 11, loses proc, no longer 2H/2S
- Shieldrender WP reduced to 7
- Lionheart W-EV increased to 10

K"night" Swords
- Defender WP increased to 16
- Save the Queen WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Protect changed to Always: Protect
- Excalibur WP increased to 14
- Ragnarok WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Shell changed to Always: Shell

Katanas
- Muramasa gains 1 MA, proc changed to 50% Cast: Spell Absorb
- Masamune now has -2 Speed, Initial:Haste changed to Always: Haste, loses proc
- Chirijiraden gains 1 Speed, Initial: Berserk and loses Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

Axes
- Slasher is now 2-swordable, W-EV reduced to 20

Rods
- Thunder Rod WP increased to 6
- Ice Rod WP increased to 7

Staves
- White Staff WP increased to 8, gains Holy Element
- Healing Staff gains 1 Speed
- Rainbow Staff WP increased to 12, gains Immune: Oil
- Wizard Staff WP increased to 9
- Gold Staff W-EV increased to 20

Guns
- Stone Gun, Blaze Gun, Blast Gun and Glacier Gun are now 4 range, forced 2H

Crossbows
- Silencer WP increased to 12

Bows
- Long Bow gains 1 Move, range increased to 7, WP reduced to 12
- Silver Bow gains 1 MA, range increased to 6
- Ice Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Lightning Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Windslash Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Mythril Bow replaced with Athiest Bow: 15 WP, 4 range, 100% Add: Innocent
- Ultimus Bow WP reduced to 14

Harps
- Ramia Harp gains 2 MA, loses proc

Shields
- Diamond Shield now has Absorb: Dark, Weak: Holy
- Platina Shield now has Absorb: Holy, Weak: Dark
- Crystal Shield gains Immune: Oil, P-EV increased to 30, M-EV reduced to 5
- Kaiser Plate now has Strengthen: Wind, Ice, Dark

Helmets
- Mythril Helm loses Immune: Stop, gains Immune: Faith, Innocent
- Cross Helm HP increased to 120, MP increased to 50
- Platina Helm loses Immune: Slow, gains Immune: Stop
- Grand Helm HP increased to 150

Hats
- Twist Headband HP increased to 70
- Holy Miter HP increased to 70
- Black Hood MP increased to 30
- Golden Hairpin loses 1 MA
- Flash Hat loses Immune: Innocent, gains Half: Earth, Wind, Water
- Thief Hat loses Half: Earth, Wind, Water

Headbands
- Choice Band remade: 60 HP, Initial: Haste, Immune: Dead, Death Sentence

Armor
- Genji Armor remade: 80 HP, 1 Speed
- Maximillian HP increased to 160

Clothes
- Brigandine HP increased to 130
- Santa Outfit MP increased to 10
- Earth Clothes MP increased to 20
- Secret Clothes HP increased to 70
- Black Costume MP increased to 10
- Rubber Costume MP increased to 10

Robes
- Silk Robe MP increased to 40

Accessories
- Sprint Shoes gains Immune: Slow
- Power Wrist P-EV increased to 30
- Genji Gauntlet M-EV increased to 30
- Defense Ring is now Immune: Silence, Berserk, Sleep, Absorb: Wind, Lightning
- Magic Ring loses Absorb: Wind, gains Absorb: Earth
- Jade Armlet is now Absorb: Ice, Water, Immune: Stop, Petrify, Frog
- 108 Gems loses all immunities
- Defense Armlet is now 1 PA, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act
- Salty Rage changed to Always: Berserk

CLASSES

Squire
- Alacrity receives an animation
- Heal now removes Oil
- Yell CT reduced to 0
- Wish range increased to 3

Chemist
- X Potion HP heal increased to 130
- Auto Potion HP heal reduced to 70

Paladin
- Reraise range reduced to 3, CT increased to 1, MP reduced to 12
- Equip Armor JP reduced to 350
- Equip Heavy Blade JP reduced to 250
- Paladin loses Move-1

Archer
- Leg Aim JP reduced to 100
- Arm Aim JP reduced to 150
- Hawk's Eye MP increased to 12, CT reduced to 1
- Cover Fire formula changed to Random(2...4)*(PA+30)~~~~~NEED TO DO ASM FOR RNG
- Execute JP reduced to 100

Monk
- Wave Fist is now Wind Elemental
- Stigma Magic JP increased to 150
- Revive JP decreased to 250

Priest
- Cure JP increased to 100, CT reduced to 0, MP increased to 10
- Cure 3 Y increased to 15
- Cure 4 Y reduced to 16, CT reduced to 3, MP reduced to 16
- Regen Y increased to 100
- Protect vert increased to 1
- Shell vert increased to 1
- Wall CT reduced to 0

Wizard
- Fire proc chance increased to 50%
- Death range increased to 6, CT reduced to 6
- Flare MP reduced to 40

Time Mage
- Haste X increased to 70
- Haste 2 JP reduced to 250
- Slow X increased to 70
- Slow 2 JP reduced to 250
- Stop CT reduced to 4, MP increased to 20, X increased to 70, JP reduced to 200
- Comet JP reduced to 100, CT reduced to 1, MP increased to 10
- Sinkhole JP reduced to 150
- Demi AoE increased to 2, X reduced to 80
- Critical Quick JP reduced to 200

Summoner
- Moogle AoE increased to 3
- Salamander proc chance increased to 50%
- Bahamut CT reduced to 6

Thief
- Bad Luck changed to 100% Random Add: Oil, Stop, Blind, Silence
- Quickening JP increased to 300
- Speed Ruin X increased to 100

Mediator
- Persuade replaced with Stall: MA+45% chance to add Stop, 300 JP
- Preach X increased to 75
- Solution X increased to 60
- Refute no longer cancels Charging and Performing
- Mediator gains Move-1

Oracle
- Dispel Magic AoE increased to 1
- Paralyze JP increased to 150

Geomancer
- Counter Flood JP reduced to 200

Lancer
- Ignore Height JP reduced to 150

Samurai
- Bizen Boat now affected by M-EV

Ninja
- Tsumazuku is now 100% Cancel: Reraise
- Houkouton damage changed to ((SP+PA)/2)*(WP+2), MP increased to 15

Bard
- Last Song X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100


Dancer
- Last Dance X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100

TODO
- Make a few more changes to Draw Out
- Adding new skills to Scholar
- Mime changes
- Change Stick formula to MAX[PA/MA]*WP
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 02, 2014, 09:48:44 am
Quote from: FFMaster on October 02, 2014, 06:53:20 am
139 will be ready to be released soon, hopefully by the end of the week if there are no problems. Here is what has been changed:

Changelog (139)

EQUIPMENT

Knives
- Dual Cutters WP increased to 8
- Mage Masher proc rate reduced to 25%
- Air Knife WP decreased to 12, now properly adds sleep
- Orichalcum, Katar and Air Knife all lose 2H

Ninja Swords
- Hidden Knife WP increased to 10, W-EV reduced to 0 and loses 1 speed
- Short Edge Oil proc chance increased to 100%
- Ninja Edge WP reduced to 10, W-EV increased to 10, proc chance increased to 50%
- Spell Edge loses 1 MA, proc changed to 100% Add: Faith

Swords, not words!
- Phoenix Blade remade: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, -1 Speed, Fire Element, Initial: Reraise, No 2S/2H
STILL NEED TO DO -1 SPEED
- Tactician's Blade W-EV increased to 20
- Parry Edge replaced with Mystic Blade: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, 1 PA, 1 MA, 2H
- Coral Sword WP increased to 11, loses proc, no longer 2H/2S
- Shieldrender WP reduced to 7
- Lionheart W-EV increased to 10

K"night" Swords
- Defender WP increased to 16
- Save the Queen WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Protect changed to Always: Protect
- Excalibur WP increased to 14
- Ragnarok WP reduced to 15, W-EV reduced to 10, Initial: Shell changed to Always: Shell

Katanas
- Muramasa gains 1 MA, proc changed to 50% Cast: Spell Absorb
- Masamune now has -2 Speed, Initial:Haste changed to Always: Haste, loses proc
- Chirijiraden gains 1 Speed, Initial: Berserk and loses Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

Axes
- Slasher is now 2-swordable, W-EV reduced to 20

Rods
- Thunder Rod WP increased to 6
- Ice Rod WP increased to 7

Staves
- White Staff WP increased to 8, gains Holy Element
- Healing Staff gains 1 Speed
- Rainbow Staff WP increased to 12, gains Immune: Oil
- Wizard Staff WP increased to 9
- Gold Staff W-EV increased to 20

Guns
- Stone Gun, Blaze Gun, Blast Gun and Glacier Gun are now 4 range, forced 2H

Crossbows
- Silencer WP increased to 12

Bows
- Long Bow gains 1 Move, range increased to 7, WP reduced to 12
- Silver Bow gains 1 MA, range increased to 6
- Ice Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Lightning Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Windslash Bow gains 1 Speed, range increased to 6, WP reduced to 12
- Mythril Bow replaced with Athiest Bow: 15 WP, 4 range, 100% Add: Innocent
- Ultimus Bow WP reduced to 14

Harps
- Ramia Harp gains 2 MA, loses proc

Shields
- Diamond Shield now has Absorb: Dark, Weak: Holy
- Platina Shield now has Absorb: Holy, Weak: Dark
- Crystal Shield gains Immune: Oil, P-EV increased to 30, M-EV reduced to 5
- Kaiser Plate now has Strengthen: Wind, Ice, Dark

Helmets
- Mythril Helm loses Immune: Stop, gains Immune: Faith, Innocent
- Cross Helm HP increased to 120, MP increased to 50
- Platina Helm loses Immune: Slow, gains Immune: Stop
- Grand Helm HP increased to 150

Hats
- Twist Headband HP increased to 70
- Holy Miter HP increased to 70
- Black Hood MP increased to 30
- Golden Hairpin loses 1 MA
- Flash Hat loses Immune: Innocent, gains Half: Earth, Wind, Water
- Thief Hat loses Half: Earth, Wind, Water

Headbands
- Choice Band remade: 60 HP, Initial: Haste, Immune: Dead, Death Sentence

Armor
- Genji Armor remade: 80 HP, 1 Speed
- Maximillian HP increased to 160

Clothes
- Brigandine HP increased to 130
- Santa Outfit MP increased to 10
- Earth Clothes MP increased to 20
- Secret Clothes HP increased to 70
- Black Costume MP increased to 10
- Rubber Costume MP increased to 10

Robes
- Silk Robe MP increased to 40

Accessories
- Sprint Shoes gains Immune: Slow
- Power Wrist P-EV increased to 30
- Genji Gauntlet M-EV increased to 30
- Defense Ring is now Immune: Silence, Berserk, Sleep, Absorb: Wind, Lightning
- Magic Ring loses Absorb: Wind, gains Absorb: Earth
- Jade Armlet is now Absorb: Ice, Water, Immune: Stop, Petrify, Frog
- 108 Gems loses all immunities
- Defense Armlet is now 1 PA, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act
- Salty Rage changed to Always: Berserk

CLASSES

Squire
- Alacrity receives an animation
- Heal now removes Oil
- Yell CT reduced to 0
- Wish range increased to 3

Chemist
- X Potion HP heal increased to 130
- Auto Potion HP heal reduced to 70

Paladin
- Reraise range reduced to 3, CT increased to 1, MP reduced to 12
- Equip Armor JP reduced to 350
- Equip Heavy Blade JP reduced to 250
- Paladin loses Move-1

Archer
- Leg Aim JP reduced to 100
- Arm Aim JP reduced to 150
- Hawk's Eye MP increased to 12, CT reduced to 1
- Cover Fire formula changed to Random(2...4)*(PA+30)~~~~~NEED TO DO ASM FOR RNG
- Execute JP reduced to 100

Monk
- Wave Fist is now Wind Elemental
- Stigma Magic JP increased to 150
- Revive JP decreased to 250

Priest
- Cure JP increased to 100, CT reduced to 0, MP increased to 10
- Cure 3 Y increased to 15
- Cure 4 Y reduced to 16, CT reduced to 3, MP reduced to 16
- Regen Y increased to 100
- Protect vert increased to 1
- Shell vert increased to 1
- Wall CT reduced to 0

Wizard
- Fire proc chance increased to 50%
- Death range increased to 6, CT reduced to 6
- Flare MP reduced to 40

Time Mage
- Haste X increased to 70
- Haste 2 JP reduced to 250
- Slow X increased to 70
- Slow 2 JP reduced to 250
- Stop CT reduced to 4, MP increased to 20, X increased to 70, JP reduced to 200
- Comet JP reduced to 100, CT reduced to 1, MP increased to 10
- Sinkhole JP reduced to 150
- Demi AoE increased to 2, X reduced to 80
- Critical Quick JP reduced to 200

Summoner
- Moogle AoE increased to 3
- Salamander proc chance increased to 50%
- Bahamut CT reduced to 6

Thief
- Bad Luck changed to 100% Random Add: Oil, Stop, Blind, Silence
- Quickening JP increased to 300
- Speed Ruin X increased to 100

Mediator
- Persuade replaced with Stall: MA+45% chance to add Stop, 300 JP
- Preach X increased to 75
- Solution X increased to 60
- Refute no longer cancels Charging and Performing
- Mediator gains Move-1

Oracle
- Dispel Magic AoE increased to 1
- Paralyze JP increased to 150

Geomancer
- Counter Flood JP reduced to 200

Lancer
- Ignore Height JP reduced to 150

Samurai
- Bizen Boat now affected by M-EV

Ninja
- Tsumazuku is now 100% Cancel: Reraise
- Houkouton damage changed to ((SP+PA)/2)*(WP+2), MP increased to 15

Bard
- Last Song X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100


Dancer
- Last Dance X increased to 40
- Brave Up JP reduced to 100
- Faith Up JP reduced to 100

TODO
- Make a few more changes to Draw Out
- Adding new skills to Scholar
- Mime changes
- Change Stick formula to MAX[PA/MA]*WP



This is the best news ever

Better yet, I love the changes. (though it's gonna force me to revise that new team of mine right away as I abused a few things :P)

Can't wait to see what you do with Scholars(Druids?).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 02, 2014, 10:29:48 am
You forgot to mention what you're doing to Oil.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 02, 2014, 10:38:06 am
Quote from: Dokurider on October 02, 2014, 10:29:48 am
You forgot to mention what you're doing to Oil.


Is oil going back to only increasing fire damage?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Leif1991 on October 02, 2014, 03:48:25 pm
Does the Flash Hat still cause an initial Innocent Status?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 02, 2014, 04:07:28 pm
I think that's what FFMaster meant in his spoiler. Its basically a thief hat replacement minus the +1 speed
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Leif1991 on October 02, 2014, 04:53:00 pm
Quote from: Barren on October 02, 2014, 04:07:28 pm
I think that's what FFMaster meant in his spoiler. Its basically a thief hat replacement minus the +1 speed

Yeah he said:
"- Flash Hat loses Immune: Innocent, gains Half: Earth, Wind, Water", when I think he meant "Initial."
Well Undead Units aren't safe from Raise 2 Spells anymore.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 02, 2014, 05:13:17 pm
Not necessarily. You can still use Reflect Mail and Cursed Ring together
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 02, 2014, 05:53:39 pm
Yes, I meant Initial: Innocent

and yes, there's an important Oil change I forgot.
- Oil no longer adds weakness to the inflicted unit. It only removes resistances.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 02, 2014, 08:10:47 pm
I'm excited for this new patch! Thanks FFMaster for doing this and see you all in the Arena soon!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on October 03, 2014, 12:56:08 am
1.39 is actually going to be a thing after all!? Excellent.

Knife changes: Well, RIP 2-H thieves. Good riddance, to be honest. So tired of 2-H Katar thieves.
Ninja Sword changes: Fine.
Swords changes: RIP Phoenix Blade. Though I can see that new Phoenix Blade being pretty OP on a Grand Cross unit. We'll see. I'm liking that Mystic Blade, too.
Knightsword changes: Love 'em. I can see right now that they're (and by they, I mean Ragnarok/Save The Queen) going to be used a LOT more now, especially for defensive teams. Good stuff.
Katana changes: Masamune looks...interesting now. -2 speed, but Always: Haste? Hmm, Chiri could be deadly with the right setup for it.
Axes: No comment.
Rods: No comment.
Staves: Healing Staff's +1 speed is interesting.
Guns: Losing both 1 range and 2-H is a well deserved nerf. I like. Spellgun damage isn't going to be as retarded as before at least, and that's good.
Crossbows: No comment.
Bows: I actually like the bow changes; Long Bow, even with the WP nerf still looks good. I can see 6, 7 or even 8 move Archers with this thing. I'm liking that Atheist Bow, too.
Harps: Ramia Harp is now just an alternative to Rune Blade for full MA bard setups or at least support bard setups. Interesting.
Shields: I was worried when I looked at Platina Shield because of Cursed Ring, but then I remembered that weak/absorb don't stack anymore. New Kaiser Plate is interesting, too.
Helmets: Hmm, I always thought it was dumb to have both Platina and Mythril Helmet block slow, so I can see the reasoning why Platina lost slow immunity. So, now it's Mythril that has slow, faith and innocent immunity and Platina that has stop, oil and poison? I can live with that. They both will still have their uses, I feel, so I think that was a good change for both of them. That Cross Helm buff looks pretty nice, too.
Hats: So Flash Hat is going to be the new Thief Hat it looks like. Only without +1 speed. Thief Hat probably gonna be garbage now, with it having the lowest HP (I'm assuming it's staying at 60?), especially since Black Hood got that 30 MP buff (which is GREAT, might I add), and Twist Headband getting a small HP buff. I dunno.
Headbands: Choice Band is useable now; initial Haste has always been pretty strong. But it being monk-only, I dunno. We'll have to see, I guess. Still no Chakra Band nerfs which makes me sad.
Armor: No comment.
Clothes: Solid buffs for all of them, which is nice.
Robes: No comment.
Accessories: Holy crap, that Jade Armlet buff. Probably gonna be seeing a lot more of that. Or not, seeing as Cursed Ring wasn't touched. Then again, Flash Hat losing Initial Innocent was basically an indirect nerf to Cursed Ring, which I'll gladly accept. Hell, ANY nerf to Cursed Ring, I'll accept at this moment. Defense Ring got small nerfs, but it still covers three big status immunities almost necessary for mages to have, so it's still a strong pick, IMO. Defense Armlet looks like it's meant for physical based units now - I can especially see this accessory being pretty good for ninjas, thieves, dancers, even damage monks. Good stuff. Slow immunity for Sprint Shoes seems nice as well.


CLASSES

Squires: Finally. Alacrity gets its own animation. Huzzah! Oh, and instant Yells? Yes, please, not like I use Yell all that much, but still a good buff, nonetheless. 3 range on Wish is something, I guess, but Wish is still a crappy skill.
Chemists: Auto Potion nerfs. Ouch. X-pot buffs, eh? Not bad.
Pallies: No more insta-Reraises. Now they're like almost insta-Reraises. And cheaper now, too. Could be a slight problem now that it's 12 MP, as with Robe of Lords + Move-MP Up, the unit could technically have infinite Reraises. But we'll see what happens with it.
Archers: Leg/Arm Aim buffs, nice. Hawk's Eye is now quicker, but more expensive to use. Good tradeoff. Shouldn't be much different than before, though it could get a bit crazy with those longbow buffs (if used with longbows, anyway).
Monks: I dunno how I feel about wind elemental Wave Fist, but other than that, no comment.
Priests: Cure and Wall buffs, always nice.
Wizzies: Range and CT buffs on Death is something. 6 CT still might be too long, but that's just me. Same with Flare; I feel that it still isn't going to be used that much - especially since Holy is still currently the way it is.
Time Mage: Oh. My. God. My prayers have been answered. These time Mage buffs were desperately needed. Stop is...actually really good now; 2 CT with short charge? Yes, please. Oh, thank you so much. This is probably one of the best parts of the patch update, IMO.
Summoners: Still don't like 'em personally, but these are some decent buffs for them, if I do say so myself. Still won't use one, though.
Thieves: Speed Ruin buffs!? With its X now 100, Speed Ruin is almost always going to hit now. Interesting. Might be worth using now, actually. As for Bad Luck, does it now proc only one status, or can it proc several statuses like it did before?
Mediators: RIP Persuade. You won't be missed, you piece of garbage. Refute no longer cancelling Charging/Performing was desperately needed. I literally never ran Refute because of how dumb the AI can be with it. Oh, and I see my Insult wasn't touched. Preach & Solution buffs, too. Groovy.
Oracles: Dispel gaining AoE is going to be quite huge, depending on the situation. A good buff for it.
Geomancers: No comment.
Lancers: No comment.
Samurai: Bizen Boat can be evaded now. About time.
Ninjas: I'm actually eager to see what this new Houkouton can do, damage wise. Interesting.
Bards/Dancers: Last Song/Last Dance buffs. Nice. Small buffs, but they're buffs, nonetheless.


Also, can't wait to see what the new Scholar is going to be like, and what they're capable of.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 03, 2014, 04:09:14 am
QuoteChirijiraden gains 1 Speed, Initial: Berserk and loses Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water

I think that Chiri should have 1 Move instead of 1 Speed because it would be nice to have a Katana that Samurai actually use to hit things with. Then again Berserk.

QuoteAccessories: Holy crap, that Jade Armlet buff. Probably gonna be seeing a lot more of that. Or not, seeing as Cursed Ring wasn't touched. Then again, Flash Hat losing Initial Innocent was basically an indirect nerf to Cursed Ring, which I'll gladly accept. Hell, ANY nerf to Cursed Ring, I'll accept at this moment. Defense Ring got small nerfs, but it still covers three big status immunities almost necessary for mages to have, so it's still a strong pick, IMO. Defense Armlet looks like it's meant for physical based units now - I can especially see this accessory being pretty good for ninjas, thieves, dancers, even damage monks. Good stuff. Slow immunity for Sprint Shoes seems nice as well.


FFM also forgot to mention that Cursed Ring was to be nerf via system change:

Zombified Units that are Immune: Crystal now only have a 50% chance of revival when the death counter reaches 0. If the revival fails, the unit will have to wait an additional turn.

While I believe this is how the interaction used to work in Vanilla and it's current behavior is an ASM, it may end up being a TODO given it's an ASM.

There's actually a few systematic changes FFM forgot to document (and I hope he doesn't forget to do them!). The change I remember the most is flagging Tsumazuku for AI use.

EDIT:

QuoteUltima is to be moved to any other slot except it's current one to bypass current hardcoded AI issues.


^Important one. The reason why the AI is so derpy when it comes to casting Ultima (not giving a shit about being midcharged, not understanding that Ultima has MP cost, which is why it also works with Quickening, etc.) because it was deliberately made that way so that it was easier for Ramza to get hit by Ultima. Just any slot will do.

Idk if FFM's still going through with the Mime changes though.

QuoteSo Flash Hat is going to be the new Thief Hat it looks like. Only without +1 speed. Thief Hat probably gonna be garbage now, with it having the lowest HP (I'm assuming it's staying at 60?), especially since Black Hood got that 30 MP buff (which is GREAT, might I add), and Twist Headband getting a small HP buff. I dunno.


Thief Hat will be fine. People will always stack speed at any cost. It's usage may go down to about equal to Secret Clothes however.

Kinda sad that my suggestion to make Iron Fan Dark Elemental or any of the Spear changes didn't go through. We really need a non self strengthening Dark Weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 03, 2014, 04:36:20 am
Quote from: Dokurider on October 03, 2014, 04:09:14 am
I think that Chiri should have 1 Move instead of 1 Speed because it would be nice to have a Katana that Samurai actually use to hit things with. Then again Berserk.

FFM also forgot to mention that Cursed Ring was to be nerf via system change:

Zombified Units that are Immune: Crystal now only have a 50% chance of revival when the death counter reaches 0. If the revival fails, the unit will have to wait an additional turn.

While I believe this is how the interaction used to work in Vanilla and it's current behavior is an ASM, it may end up being a TODO given it's an ASM.

There's actually a few systematic changes FFM forgot to document (and I hope he doesn't forget to do them!). The change I remember the most is flagging Tsumazuku for AI use.

EDIT:

^Important one. The reason why the AI is so derpy when it comes to casting Ultima (not giving a shit about being midcharged, not understanding that Ultima has MP cost, which is why it also works with Quickening, etc.) because it was deliberately made that way so that it was easier for Ramza to get hit by Ultima. Just any slot will do.

Idk if FFM's still going through with the Mime changes though.

Thief Hat will be fine. People will always stack speed at any cost. It's usage may go down to about equal to Secret Clothes however.

Kinda sad that my suggestion to make Iron Fan Dark Elemental or any of the Spear changes didn't go through. We really need a non self strengthening Dark Weapon.


Interesting. I didn't know that about Ultima.

As for a Dark weapon, I'd personally recommend a sword for it's purpose, as they can be used by many jobs. Or a dagger, but still, personal preference.

But I'm happy with how the changes are.

Phoenix Blade is more of a weapon now than a tool for immortality, though I suppose it wasn't broken before. Just annoying.

There's nothing that I'll really miss, as these changes are mostly geared towards making things usable alongside the already popular choices, and nothing (as far as I can tell) was really removed, just tweaked to make them more/less appealing and risky/rewarding to pick up.

I don't have many personal thoughts on this until I design a few teams, though. I'm not really one for theory :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 03, 2014, 05:10:08 am
Yeah, I completely forgot about the Undead change. Thanks for reminding me. Saved me one b version lol.

Ultima fix has already been done, and isn't really worth documenting.

Tsumazuku fix hasn't been done, but I didn't think it was worthwhile to write a line about it.

As for Spears and Swords, I was planning to kill off the elemental spears specifically, since I always hated that they couldn't understand the proc element, and I had to make the base weapon that element. If time permits, I'll move a few sword effects to replace those 3 elemental spears, and add a Dark sword in there.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 03, 2014, 05:48:22 am
Oh one more thing, hasn't Lancer getting Robes been a long standing request?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on October 03, 2014, 12:02:15 pm
Oh yes, that reminds me: Is something going to be done to bags this time around?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 03, 2014, 09:59:12 pm
Where can I see the change list for the next version?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 03, 2014, 10:14:57 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on October 03, 2014, 09:59:12 pm
Where can I see the change list for the next version?


On the page before, one of FFM's posts listed the changes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 03, 2014, 10:43:17 pm
Salty Rage always berserk? GG Mime.
Can finally make a spear wielding Samurai I always wanted, but didn't want to put any effort into making.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Leif1991 on October 04, 2014, 01:17:13 pm
Once 139 is released, will there be a modded team builder implementing these changes? Also, Dokurider talked about a nerf to zombie units. Does this mean that they are no longer guaranteed revival when their death counter reaches zero?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 04, 2014, 02:48:42 pm
I think what that means is that they can get revived but now there's a 50% chance of them waiting another turn to get back up. So essentially they could be down for a long time
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 04, 2014, 02:55:27 pm
These changes seem to be make things more balanced.  I may actually play again.

However, there are a few things from the last few seasons that we didn't fix.  Not every status proc is equal.  Due to how the AI works, the actual value of procs in this game is different than how human players will value such procs.  In order of lethality:
1) Charm (makes the enemy unit work for you temporariliy, during which your team will not target)
2) Sleep (takes an enemy unit out of the battle for 60 CT, during which your team will not target)
3) Petrify (makes an enemy unit unable to battle by KOing it)
4) Frog (makes an enemy unit unable to battle, BUT your team will easily kill the target)
5) Stop (takes an enemy unit out of the battle, BUT your team will target)
6) Don't Act (makes an enemy unit unable to battle, BUT your team is able to target)

Notice the difference between 1-3 and 4-6.  In the first 3, the enemy unit will always be incapacitated long-term because they will not be targeted; in the latter 3, the enemy unit is incapacitated BUT can be targeted.  As a result, incapacitation in the latter cases may not always "stick" (because if the incapacitated unit is immediately targeted and killed, the proc then has no long-term value).  This mismatch was used by Avalanche in S6 (first place) and S7 (second place) to brutal effect because he was able to wield both a sleep sword and an ancient sword on the same unit.  Thus, I suggest:
1) Remove Sleep Sword
2) Remove Ancient Sword
3) Remove Moonlight
...in exchange for
I) Zombie Lance (13 WP, +1 SP, 33% Zombie) replaces Spear
II) Stone Spear (12 WP, +1 SP, 20% Petrify) replaces Mythril Spear
III) Luna Spear (11 WP, +1 SP, 50% Proc: Moonlight) replaces Partisan
IV) Holy Lance update (10 WP, +1 SP, 25% Sleep, Holy Element)

The Moonlight suggestion is because Lancer is the base class for dragon spirit (and thus, can best exploit the Moonlight proc).
Overall, this suggestion will further balance the game as lances cannot be mixed with 2S (which is how Avalanche won) and lancer currently does not have enough offensive options.  (It won't further empower already powerful classes because lances can only be natively used by lancers.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 04, 2014, 05:26:21 pm
Could we keep phoenix blade and, like the new Masamune, replace always slow and immunity to haste with the same negatives to speed? Minus 4 to 6 speed sounds balanced. It was a really good singing sword. Bard always got cheer songs off without wasting turns recasting. You're also affected by slow more.

---------------

Won't a 139 Equip Knightsword Thief now end up being stronger than the 138 Katar 2hand Thief?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 07, 2014, 10:21:19 pm
QuoteCould we keep phoenix blade and, like the new Masamune, replace always slow and immunity to haste with the same negatives to speed? Minus 4 to 6 speed sounds balanced. It was a really good singing sword. Bard always got cheer songs off without wasting turns recasting. You're also affected by slow more.

Always: Reraise is an unworkable concept. It might be indeed better with negative speed, but you still end up with an unkill-able aggro unit that can Balance the shit out of you.

QuoteWon't a 139 Equip Knightsword Thief now end up being stronger than the 138 Katar 2hand Thief?

17 WP + dispel vs an effective 26 WP + 1 PA/Move
I don't think it really could ever be as bad as Katar Thieves, Always: Protect or not. The combination of extreme damage and move was what made Katar so good.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 09, 2014, 03:49:37 pm
How many JP do Mimes get? 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 09, 2014, 04:45:50 pm
3000
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on October 09, 2014, 06:49:14 pm
Quote from: Dokurider on October 07, 2014, 10:21:19 pm
Always: Reraise is an unworkable concept. It might be indeed better with negative speed, but you still end up with an unkill-able aggro unit that can Balance the shit out of you.
17 WP + dispel vs an effective 26 WP + 1 PA/Move
I don't think it really could ever be as bad as Katar Thieves, Always: Protect or not. The combination of extreme damage and move was what made Katar so good.


Agreed. Definetly not. Even if Two Hands worked with KSwords, the damage still wouldn't come close to the damage of Katar thieves. Though, I'm willing to bet now that Slasher can be dual wielded, dual Slasher geos/pallies or maybe even ninjas will become a thing. Probably going to do as much, if not more than Katar thieves now.

Speaking of Balance, now that Phoenix Blade's been reworked, and average HP totals have gone up overall, I wonder if Balance would see even more use now, at least on armored units. Hmm.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 10, 2014, 01:39:20 pm
Can Mimes equip bags?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on October 10, 2014, 04:07:01 pm
Quote from: reinoe on October 10, 2014, 01:39:20 pm
Can Mimes equip bags?


Nope. They can equip everything except shields and weapons. But, they can still use weapons and shields if they have an 'Equip X' support.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 10, 2014, 07:59:12 pm
Does Singing and Dancing benefit from Short Charge?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 10, 2014, 09:12:42 pm
No it doesn't.  Because song and dance are performances
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 10, 2014, 10:01:05 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on October 10, 2014, 07:59:12 pm
Does Singing and Dancing benefit from Short Charge?

There are three.

Charging: Hawk's Eye, Bad Luck, ect

Casting: All magic

Performing: Song and Dance

Short Charge works on Casting only, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on October 10, 2014, 10:19:42 pm
Charging and Casting are the same thing as far as the game is concerned. Performing is different.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 10, 2014, 11:30:35 pm
Eternal is correct.

The game checks for the Performing flag, and it it returns true, the entire Short Charge routine is skipped.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 11, 2014, 12:05:44 am
How does Mime's Attack command work? Does it make equip weapon supports useless outside of stat and other benefits like element strengthening?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 11, 2014, 12:47:46 am
No. I'll explain all this in detail.

First, the trivial scenario. If a Mime uses an attack or ability normally just like how any other unit does, it will use the equipped items as normal. Without any Equip abilities, this will be a punch. Note that Mime does not have innate Martial Arts anymore, and the attack will be very weak.

If a Mime mimics an attack, the left and right hand equipment changes to what the original user was holding. For example, if a Paladin uses Grand Cross with an Excalibur, the Mime will also mimic Grand Cross with an Excalibur. Once the mimic ends, the Mime will be given back the original equipment he had. If a shield was equipped, it will be put back on the correct hand.

HOWEVER, the changed equipment will not grant the innates from the new equipment. In the above scenario, the temporary Excalibur will not grant the user Strengthen: Holy. This means that if both units had the exact same Brave and PA, the original user will do more damage, due to Strengthen: Holy unless the Mime also has Strengthen: Holy from another source (for example, 108 Gems). Innates include bonus PA, MA, Speed, Immunities, Weaknesses, Resists and Strengthens as well as status effects. Basically, anything in the Attributes tab.

CONVERSELY, any innates that the Mime has gained from the equipment in his hands will not be lost. For example, the bonus PA from Genji Shield will not be lost during a Mimic, or the MA bonus from Rune Blade.

Be careful how you build your Mimes. A Mime copying a Mace of Zeus Grand Cross will not be able to absorb it unless there is Absorb: Lightning already on the unit somewhere. If in doubt, use skills that won't hit self, like Summons or Southern Cross.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 11, 2014, 02:48:01 am
Had a PA boosted Mime with a Save the Queen equipped. It got stuck using a harp for several turns because everyone else was either sleeping or paralyzed. That's not supposed to happen is it? So far whenever he copies a normal attack it gets stuck with someone elses weapon never to use his own.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 11, 2014, 08:55:15 am
Yeah, that's a bug. Was there anyone using said Harp? Also, can you upload the generated memory card so I can test?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 15, 2014, 04:34:34 pm
Bow Gun's Armor break proc doesn't work.  Doesn't seem to have a proc actually.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 15, 2014, 06:30:38 pm
(Bow Gun's proc hasn't ever worked for some reason. It definitely has Armor Break as its proc in the patch, at least in 138d, and it wasn't working back then. No one knows why for sure or, at least, no one has said anything. Personally, I think it's for the better. Armor Break working on that thing would probably make it overpowered.)


Oh, good. You're back, FFMaster. As glad as I am to see ARENA got an update while I'm gone, I'm even more glad just to see you're okay. Given I almost always assume the worst, it's good to know that you're, well, still alive, especially given you were gone for even longer than I was even counting the brief hiatus I just took.

In fact, given how long you were gone, I actually took it upon myself to try to implement all of the huge amount of 1.39 changes that people were suggesting. Aside from Druid/Scholar, which I didn't really decide on mostly because I wasn't sure what you had decided upon before you disappeared, everything has been done in that patch for a month; I was leaning towards Druid though for the record just because Scholar's stats are currently Wizard+ (still). As such, even with the different changes in the current version of 1.39, I can send you that version of the patch and the two Notepad documents related to it should you so want given it would be really tedious to upgrade otherwise. It's up to you (and anyone else who's interested, I guess). I'd need a day or two (or three) to clean up things in said documents though.

(While they may no longer be helpful, they may at least be useful for getting ideas when it comes to "fixing" Songs and especially Dances since I had quite a bit of inspiration there. I somewhat fear that I may have made that version of Witch Hunt a bit overpowered though.)


As for the current version of 1.39, I'll wait to comment in-depth until I look into things more carefully and probably make a team that actually works in 1.39. For the most part, the changes look positive, especially with regards to Accessories, Undead revival, Mimes and Phoenix Blade. Similarly, I can understand you not wanting to implement the tidal wave of changes that the aggregate 1.39 changes were asking for. I mean, gods, it was so tedious just implementing the stuff that suggested even before "having" to come up with some of my own solutions and trying to balance the suggestions that were either conflicting or just flat-out got no discussion.

That said, despite all the other decisions for the actual 1.39, I'm really not keen on Quickening still being around, especially with the way that the new Phoenix Blade is balanced. Like, really not keen. Not keen, totally so.

No amount of JP is going to be enough to be able to properly balance Quickening, even if you made it cost 2500-2750 JP. As it is, it's just going to continue to basically be the only skill that Thieves really use outside of maybe Steal: Heart and Steal: Accessory even with the nerf to Cursed Ring and the previously 2H-compatible Knives. That kind of undermines, among other things, the needed change to Bad Luck/Tough Luck as well as continues to make the current versions of Cheer Song, Slow Dance, Speed Ruin and even, to some degree, Speed Save, Chrono Trigger and Last Song & Last Dance kind of suck.

Please, please put Quickening out of our misery finally.

(Yes, I show you I'm glad to know you're okay by immediately nagging you. I'm tactful and caring like that.)

Quote from: silentkaster on September 14, 2014, 09:07:21 pm
Well, I disagree in part on the triangle hat receiving halving of those elements. I think that most people likely choose Thief Hat due to the +1 Speed, not the elemental halving. Due to that, I don't think many teams would use a hat that gives lower HP and halves those particular elements. The spells and abilities that use those elements aren't that popular or plentiful. If anything, I would add 20 HP and swap the White Robe/Triangle Hat elements (possibly with immunity to Berserk or Poison added to the White Robe). This would make them both viable choices since the Triangle Hat would half the spell gun damage (and be more accessible to more classes) while the Robe would give a good immunity and half three elements that aren't widely used. I realize Earth is a bit more used than Water and Wind, but Earth also has Float that can null that element.

That's just my opinion though.


I noted this before I left and, though it's a moot point now that FFMaster is back, I feel like it deserves a response, especially given that it was a well thought-out opinion:

I've concluded that what you suggested probably would have been the better solution for the aggregated version of 1.39 that had been suggested in the months before FFMaster disappeared last year. This even though the name of White Robe would have become a tad weird, Ice was already going to see a decent nerf with Defense Ring getting Null: Ice and the fact that Quake & Tornado are currently overpowered enough--they're too quick for how strong they are--for it not to really matter that Fire, Ice and Lightning are slightly more widespread; even then, Fire, Ice and Lightning generally only see more use because of, unsurprisingly, Spellguns. Water would also probably have gone up in use if Defense Ring no longer absorbed it in addition to still being immune to five statuses.

That said, I agree with the notion that the halving wasn't what made Thief Hat powerful. It was--well, still is--just an added bonus to the +1 Speed which is more important and powerful despite Quickening still being so bloody ubiquitous. I hadn't meant to imply the opposite, though after you replied I realized how it could be easily misconstrued as such.

As far as Robes go, I think that of the two options, adding Immune: Berserk would be the better option even with my suggestion to make a Hat that has Immune: Berserk; I don't think they would necessarily compete all that much with each other. A Robe that was Immune: Poison, while it would definitely also be helpful, seems like it would ultimately both just undermine Light Robe and step on the new version of Cure (1) that Gaignun thought up. Still, a good idea there as well, even if I'm not too sure what Robe Immune: Berserk could have been added to without potentially going over the (normal) Item Attribute limit despite ending up with two or so open spaces in theory after all was said and done. Silk Robe would probably be the "safest" Robe and that's only because it has no Item Attributes--it becoming Immune: Berserk would certainly give people incentive to use it though since it's easily the second least or outright least used Robe currently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 15, 2014, 06:48:02 pm
What's the point in keeping bowgun in the game if it has no use? Having armor break isn't overpowered in the slightest, but maybe the percentage could be lowered to 33%. The proc can still be blocked right? Why not go the long bow route and give it more range and move? Maybe a tactical crossbow. Same stats, but move, jump, and 5 more W-Ev.

Gastrophetes needs a WP or range buff. It's a 2 handed crossbow that can do less damage than a one hander with a genji shield. Giving it 5 range or an additional 1-2 WP seems fair when you look at the damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 15, 2014, 07:40:53 pm
You've have to ask FFMaster that, as I couldn't tell you and don't want to put words in his mouth. I suspect he was just trying to change as little as possible while still changing enough so the update had a significant impact on most of the actual problems with 1.38, especially since he came back midway through the tidal wave of suggestions for 1.39 and felt understandably lost. Some things are obviously still works in progress on that front, especially given I just kvetched about Quickening still existing when it seemed pretty much everyone but Raven agreed it should die in a fire.

As for Bow Gun's Armor Break, yes, it could still be "blocked" if you had Maintenance or have significant physical evasion that wasn't disabled by a status and the unit didn't firing upon you didn't have Concentrate. I still think it would be overpowered, however, since you'd still take double damage in the former case despite using an RSM that sees basically no use anyway because of stuff like that. In the latter case there's little reason to not use Concentrate with Bow Gun given free Armor Break followed by subsequent double-hits from Range 4 is really good.

I mean, as it is, Shieldrender is pretty damn good now that we know that actually works even though it has the lowest WP of all Swords and doesn't lower the HP any unit it strikes--it just lowers their evasion and potential to absorb anything. Something that breaks armor, which unlike Shields, literally every unit wears, including Mime now, would only be guaranteed to be better even if you mandated half of every time to wear Projectile Guard.

There's also the issue of Crossbows in general being among the most "meh" class of weapons right between having to compete with Guns & Longbows on Archer and then a plethora of other options on Squire, which are both losing battles really. For the longest time, only Hunting Bow--especially OG ARENA Hunting Bow with its 100% Don't Move chance--and Gastrophetes have ever really been worth using and even the latter is kinda dubious as it tends to only get used on Monks due to their PA; I suppose one could also argue that Poison Bow is worth using even though a bunch of things, including Hawk's Eye, add Poison. So letting Bow Gun keep an Armor Break proc that's functioning would only make that worse ironically.

That said, I'd be willing to try it out if it did work, especially if FFMaster used that hack that caused equipment breaks to not function as attacks on units without that piece of equipment. Shieldrender would need a boost though then and even then I still think free Armor Break would probably end in tears.

When I unofficially "took over" for FFMaster as far as trying to get together a patch for 1.39 in his absence, I just "suggested" it be changed to something else entirely while working on it:


Bow-Gun --> Auto-Crossbow: 8 WP, 0% W-EV, 4 Range, +2 Speed.


Shrug. You could probably slightly increase the range to 5 and be fine.

****

As far as Gastrophetes goes, boosting its WP even more just seems like asking for people to abuse it with Southern Cross and do basically nothing else. Granted, with Phoenix Blade now existent as a Fire elemental weapon, I suppose that would be less of a problem than it would have been before but it still seems...non-optimal to me. Among the changes generally agreed upon, like Lancers getting Robes back despite their pitiful MA, a new version of Gastrophetes was one of them:


Gastrophetes: 14 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Range, Force Two-Hands, 100% Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Don't Move.


I'm not sure what happened there and I'm still honestly not sure how I feel about it, but it at least seems like an improvement to the current condition of Gastrophetes for the reasons you specify among others.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 15, 2014, 08:51:21 pm
Thanks to The Damned for the thoughtful response!

I am pretty sure Bow Gun's proc worked but there was no animation. I'm not sure which ones, but see some of Barren's videos featuring teams with the Bow Gun from 1.38. Also, even though the proc was 50%, I think that the chance to evade the Armor Break still existed. So even if 50% did proc, the unit still had a chance to avoid the armor break. At least, that's how I think it works.

Anyway, if you ask me, I think that the most "meh" weapons are actually the cloths. With only "initial" Protect, Shell and Reflect on a class that is generally a very offensive class, and with no 2H or 2S abilities (I think that 2S would be OP though given two range), I think that these are easily passed up for Swords and Daggers on the Dancer. With "Always" Protect Shell or Reflect or at least the ability to use 2H, I think that these would be a bit more balanced. But that's just me.

I personally think Gastrafitis should also be reworked, especially if keeping it two hands. I agree with you, The Damned, on nerfing the WP a bit and adding a proc, but I'm not sure this would necessarily make it a good choice over the other bows, especially considering the procs you mentioned can all be procced by the other crossbows. In general, if you're using a crossbow, the strategy would be to proc a certain status given that other weapons (namely guns and longbows) can do more damage with higher accuracy, better procs (consider proccing Stop and DA vs. Poison and DM) or longer range. So the other crossbows, despite a somewhat lower WP would be more than made up for in many cases by bringing a shield and having a certain status proc (vs. a random status) a high percentage of the time. Therefore, my idea would be for the Gastrafitis to proc "Slow" 50% of the time.

I appreciate your response to my thoughts about the hats/robes. I hear you on which robe should be given Immune: Berserk...yeah Silk Robe would probably be the best choice. Perhaps a slight HP nerf and adding that would be a good idea, but just my opinion, especially given Berserk is so powerful on Mages.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 15, 2014, 09:42:57 pm
Sensible arguments all, though for the record I think it was Gaignun himself came up with the idea for Gastrophetes and people just tended to collectively agree with it.

That said, I had and still do have much the same misgivings about it for the reasons you point out even though I could see why Gaignun settled on that idea, which is why I agreed with it. A Gastrophetes that added Slow would be definite improvement that I think would still be fair though. 50% may be a bit high though, especially when it's not hampered by as much as Heaven's Cloud the Katana is and has more range, no element and might get to keep more WP on top of that. Still, that's definitely a valid option.

As far as Bow Gun working "in secret", hmmm...now that you mention it, I do vaguely recall Barren mentioning something like that. I don't think I ever got around to checking things out, especially given that I was gone for a large part of the end of 1.38. I suppose, given the graphical glitches that Crossbows, Longbows and probably Guns have with stuff that uses the Weapon Strike animation that isn't a regular attack, it's entirely possible that's making the subsequent Armor Break invisible. It would need some testing though to verify that's what actually occurring, especially since no one is really using it, partly because others and I have been telling people it doesn't work. It's sort of what happened with Repel Knife when I was mistaken about that and when people thought Shieldrender wasn't working.

Even if Armor Break is working as it should on Bow Gun though, all that does is introduce another set of problems, at least to me.

As far as the most lackluster weapon group goes, I'd definitely agree that Cloths are the most lackluster. Crossbows have been generally been rather lackluster for a while as well for various reasons. I'd say they're the third most lackluster after Staves, even with all the problems half of Spears have been having, and may be even second now that Staves finally got some type of boost even though I think you do even more with Staves. Cloths' exclusivity doesn't help, especially there are accessories that utterly outclass their benefits unlike with Harps, which were all decent already but outclassed by Bloody Strings; Lamia Harp seems to have gotten a boost as it is even despite that, which also helps out Madlemgen incidentally.

The problem is that even knowing they're bad doesn't help fix, much less get to agree upon how to fix them unfortunately. Said problem is only furthered by it being an admittedly low priority between the exclusivity, the other big problem with Dancers (read: their skill set) and Dancers already have other extremely good options weapon-wise as you pointed out. I'm not really sure what to do about Cloths either, though I'll be honest and say that I don't think turning the statuses they have now into "Always" would help all that much.

Finally, so noted about Silk Robe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 16, 2014, 12:00:04 am
I think crossbows are fine.  Now that Ultimus bow has been nerfed, I think gastrofitis will see more use once the metagame stabilizes.  The only slight problems I currently see are long bows:

A) Atheist Bow can still be range boosted by terrain.  Its effect should be swapped with Bow Gun.  In other words, change Atheist Bow to Heavy Shot: 12 WP, 5 Range, 50% Armor Break, 10 W-EV and Bow Gun to 8 WP, 4 Range, 100% Innocent or 10 WP, 4 Range, 50% Innocent (both at 0 W-EV).
B) Silver Bow is too strong.  It should be 13 WP, 5 Range, +2 MA, everything else stays the same.
C) Drop the MA boosts on Ice and Lightning Bows.

Otherwise, the flexibility of the crossbows (ability to use shields, native PA * WP so there's no need to have a ninja subclass) should easily compensate for the extra WP and range on longbows.  Southern cross and kagesougi won't be used consistently even on gastrofitis because the regular attack outranges southern cross and the AI cannot tell the difference between kagesougi and a normal attack (because it doesn't see the status effects being added) and thus will use the two interchangeably.

Damned, turning the veils to "Always" would likely break the game.  Wiz used it to create unstoppable dancers a while back.  Instead, I suggest:
Persia: 12 WP, 2 Range, 10 W-EV, Init: Haste
Cashmere: 12 WP, 2 Range, 10 W-EV, Init: Prot/Shell
Ryozan: 12 WP, 2 Range, 10 W-EV, Init: Reflect

I suspect Phoenix Blade is currently too good.  It could stand to lose all the W-EV or the fire elemental, but I want to see the metagame pan out first.

Thief's skillset simply needs an overhaul because like you noticed, there's really only two useful skills (SH and Quickening).
A) Heretic belongs on ninja.  And honestly, I'd rather it be (PA + 70)% Innocent, 3 Range / 3 Vert so it'd be an actual threat.  Remove Solution from mediator.
B) Bad Luck is awful now.  It currently is worth only 2 CT / 5 MP.  The point of it, like the decap axe or the climhazzard dagger, is to threaten even tanks with disaster.  The chances may not be high, but they're not supposed to be easy to avoid.  If you really wish to keep the CT / MP costs, then delete kagesougi from ninja and make Bad Luck 100% Random: DM, DA, Stop, Blind, Silence.
C) Spellbreaker should be the magical version of Kagesougi.  In other words, weapon range / elemental / 50% RemoveBuffs / 5 MP.  I suspect being MA-based (and not adding DA) would make it more balanced than Kagesougi.
D) Quickening is balanced by AI behavior.  It will only use quickening if your character has no other MP dependent skill.  Thus, a quickening thief cannot use spellbreaker, heretic, bad luck, or any of the ruins and cannot be used on a mage.
E) If Thief really needs to be nerfed (I doubt it), then we can give Steal Heart an MP cost so Quickening thieves can't use it.
F) Steal Accessory and Speed Ruin are fine.
G) Magic Ruin is not an efficient spell.  Steal Heart and HEretic are both better ways to interrupt spells.  Even if the effect connects, the MP reduction often isn't enough to stop the target from using her spell.  Thus, I suggest (assuming we delete Kagesougi) that Magic Ruin be changed to Master RUin:
[PA/2] * WP to HP
[PA/2] * WP to MP
Weapon Elemental, P-EVable
12 MP
1 Range, 3 Vert
Off a dedicated physical attacker, the MP damage will be significant enough to cancel spells while also dealing damage.  The low range keeps it balanced.  Of course, the Monster Dictionary now needs a new proc.  Maybe 50% bizen boat?
H) Power and Mind Ruin I have no idea how to fix.

As for Tornado / Quake, 3 CT and being reflectable should suffice.

If the Asura change proves popular, can we have other underused draw outs like muramasa and heaven's cloud be PA * 9 and 7, respectively?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 16, 2014, 01:02:52 am
Not a fan of random stat procs on a weapon. It's always a problem when RNG conveniently adds the perfect status for the situation. Kagesougi should never be on a weapon. For the Gastrophetes, I could see it being the Gold Staff or Chaos Blade of crossbows. It could have the exact same stats, but with the 100% dispel effect. It's the most fitting effect for the weapon historically.

Gastrophetes: 16 WP, 0 W-EV, 5 Range, Force Two-Hands
Gastrophetes: 16 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Range, Force Two-Hands, 100% Cancel on hit: All positive statii


For Bowgun in 139 exclusively, I've tested to see if it worked using 8 female units with worst compat and tanking gear. 20 something attacks in and everyone was still wearing armor. So it's broken in the literal sense at the moment.
I don't agree with your auto crossbow suggestion in the slightest either. Seems like an easy way to benefit from 25% Haste. Archer has a default speed of 9, Paired with +3 from your Auto Crossbow, and Zephyr Shield and we're looking at an easy 12 speed from hand equipment alone. +3 Speed with Haste. You could even get 15 speed with Secret Clothes, Thief Hat, and Sprint shoes. On anything but a cramped map like the pub, and you could have a 16 speed unit with +4 from haste from a song or quickening. That's a bit ridiculous having 20 speed in the first turn. Ridiculous.

For Bowgun, I do agree on it being reworked and renamed. I recommended having a tactical-like crossbow with +move and jump in a previous post. When I read "Auto Crossbow" I think of rapid fire. When I think rapid fire I think of the dual cutters.  Giving BowGun or "Auto Crossbow" the old 1.3 proc sounds a lot less harmful than a 50% armor break since that's permanent damage, and an extra attack. Suggestions

Bow-Gun --> Auto-Crossbow: 7-8 WP, 0% W-EV, 4 Range 50% Chance of Extra Attack

Bow-Gun --> Scout's Crossbow: 8 WP, 0% W-EV, 4 Range +1 Move, + 1 Jump
Bow-Gun --> Scout's Crossbow: 8 WP, 0% W-EV, 5 Range +1 Move, + 1 Jump



Clothes definitely the worst melee weapon class at the moment. Not only because of the horrible stats that can be dispelled, but because Dancers can use superior weapons.

Persia: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Protect
Cashmere 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Shell
Ryozan Cloth 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Reflect

To

Persia: 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range, 50% Chance of Knockback
Cashmere 10 WP, 40 W-EV, 2 Range
Cashmere 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range, 50% Cancel Performing/Casting
Ryozan Cloth 12 WP, 10 W-EV, 2 Range Initial: Haste
(Wouldn't Hurt to give a cloth speed and haste since it's 2hand.

I watched Iron Monkey recently after many years and thought about giving a cloth 3 range. Then I realized giving it knockback would be just as good or even more powerful. Heck 100% Knockback wouldn't hurt. [joke]Maybe give cloth a boost from Martial Arts?[/joke]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 16, 2014, 01:46:24 am
1) Armor break has a ~65% chance to land on max PA setup for Bow Gun before considering target evasion (average around 20% or so).  Thus, we're looking at 52% chance to break armor on top of a 50% proc rate or a total of around 25% armor break.
2) Damage to maxHP does not affect currentHP.
3) Once the target's armor is broken, due to a bug in my ASM (that FFM doesn't want to fix), consecutive triggers of armor break WILL DO NOTHING.

Honestly, to make the Bow Gun proc "second hit" rather than armor break actually makes it stronger because an extra hit > armor break in terms of damage.

As for your cloth suggestions, Init: Haste is arguably no better than Init: Reflect.  The former favors more offensive teams, the latter more defensive ones.  Init: Haste should exist on its own cloth (rather than steal the slot from Ryozan).
50% Cancel Perform / Cast is not a good idea for a dancer exclusive weapon.  For that weapon to be effective, you must midcharge with it, but midcharging means either a really fast dancer (10 / 11 speed + haste) or a dancer that goes last in your formation order (meaning her dances become suboptimal because she's not casting witch hunt or polka polka before enemy 8 SPD units get their turns).
WEV is typically bad on dancers because while performing, they have no evasion.
As for 50% Knockback, it may create glitches where characters are knocked off the map's boundaries, freezing the game.  It's possible to code without more ASM, but it requires some trickery.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 16, 2014, 10:24:07 pm
(Good to see you back as well, formerdeathcorps. If working Armor Break on Bow Gun indeed wouldn't offer up extra attacks after armor is broken, then I would probably be fine with it.)

I pretty much agree with all your arguments, formerdeathcorps, save for Quickening being balanced--we'll probably never agree on that--by the A.I. current ignorance and that turning the Veils/Cloths back to Always would break the game given everything has changed. Still, in the latter instance, we at least agree that turning them to Always isn't a good idea for one reason or another and I find your suggestions of Initial: Buff changes a good enough improvement that they might actually see use again.

For the record, I too am rather worried about Atheist Bow and the newer Phoenix Blade, even if it's definitely an improvement over the old Phoenix Blade. Still, I find that all the more reason to test them out, so we'll see how they pan out I suppose.

I must admit, however, that I'm surprised you edited your post to say Speed Ruin is fine now. Either way, it definitely is the most--well, only--usable Ruin unfortunately.


Quote from: Shintroy on October 16, 2014, 01:02:52 am
For Bowgun in 139 exclusively, I've tested to see if it worked using 8 female units with worst compat and tanking gear. 20 something attacks in and everyone was still wearing armor. So it's broken in the literal sense at the moment.


You should probably test it (a lot) more times than just around 20, but, yeah, it's probably not working, so I'm going to say don't bother doing that unless you want to absolutely be sure it doesn't work.

Quote from: Shintroy on October 16, 2014, 01:02:52 amI don't agree with your auto crossbow suggestion in the slightest either. Seems like an easy way to benefit from 25% Haste. Archer has a default speed of 9, Paired with +3 from your Auto Crossbow, and Zephyr Shield and we're looking at an easy 12 speed from hand equipment alone. +3 Speed with Haste. You could even get 15 speed with Secret Clothes, Thief Hat, and Sprint shoes. On anything but a cramped map like the pub, and you could have a 16 speed unit with +4 from haste from a song or quickening. That's a bit ridiculous having 20 speed in the first turn. Ridiculous.


Noted. I didn't say I was exactly a fan of my own suggestion. Just that it was something I came up with that I thought was actually an improvement to a version of Bow Gun that currently isn't even working.

That said, I felt it was "fair" since you can already do the exact same thing if you give a Thief all of the equipment you said and a Javelin or, previously, two Hidden Knives with generally more power behind that speed to boot. I don't disagree that it isn't "ridiculous", in part due to, you know, Quickening, but it's hardly new.

The other things have mostly already been answered by formerdeathcorps, but I'll say that I do like the idea of Scout's Crossbow and think it would be fine with Range 5 given its low power.

P.S. For the record, I vaguely remember "Extra Attacks" not working properly on Crossbows either, though I can't remember why I "know" that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was for the same reason that Armor Break currently isn't working though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 17, 2014, 01:04:21 am
Old Phoenix Blade was fine. Winrates of teams with Phoenix Blade was abysmal. I think it's a lot more interesting than the current version.

Quickening is also probably fine. If a unit is actually spamming it, that team is already winning to begin with (ex. Wiz's team - against teams that could actually compete with it, the thieves were either using items or attacking. They used Quickening a lot when either 1. against teams that couldn't threaten them, or 2. if against a competent team, the enemy team was berserked/blinded/poisoned/dead. In other words, when Wiz had won). Most units only get 1-2 uses out of Quickening before other priorities show up.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on October 17, 2014, 01:51:09 am
(Shrug.)

Like I said, I'm not ever going to like Quickening, especially since it's making a decent amount of other skills currently suck. If FFMaster and other people want to keep it around, then I'll stop (publicly) kvetching about it. I was just under the impression pretty much everyone wanted it gone and yet here it still is.

I'm also not sure what's (a lot more) interesting about an item that regularly, unnecessarily dragged out single rounds to 20+ minutes because the A.I. is blind to and easily manipulated by some things, but different strokes and all that. I'm personally just glad it's gone even if I'm not exactly ecstatic about the new Phoenix Blade either (partly because Quickening makes its "drawback" moot). At least the new Phoenix Blade shouldn't make matches with it tedious to record.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 17, 2014, 02:28:33 am
Phoenix Blade was changed mainly because of how stupidly long all matches with them took. 30 minutes per battle of the same loop over and over is not something anyone here really wants.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 17, 2014, 03:03:54 am
My only thought to having an Always: Reraise weapon would be to make it Always: Poison Immune: Regen...

Now, when the unit gets up, it would have to heal itself in order to stay alive. Yes, Move-HP UP would work to at least keep the unit alive a turn or two, but the unit would just run off and healing would be its priority. Also, the other units would have to potentially waste turns trying to keep this unit alive by restoring HP.

IDK, I thought it'd be a fun twist. Yes, the unit would always come back, but it wouldn't be able to do anything unless it immediately healed itself and then it wastes its first turn giving the enemy a chance to take it down again. I'm not saying an Always: Reraise item should even be in the game...but this would just be an interesting twist if something were to come back with Always: Reraise.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 23, 2014, 03:02:51 am
Can we have three Mimes on a team since, due to equipment etc, the units can all be different?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on October 23, 2014, 03:37:41 am
Yes, you are allowed to have as many Mimes as you want, as long as it fits the rules. There is no restrictions on base class. You can make a team with 4 Monks if you wanted to, as long as it follows the rules for Skillsets/Items.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 26, 2014, 05:58:08 am
Quote from: silentkaster on October 17, 2014, 03:03:54 am
My only thought to having an Always: Reraise weapon would be to make it Always: Poison Immune: Regen...

Now, when the unit gets up, it would have to heal itself in order to stay alive. Yes, Move-HP UP would work to at least keep the unit alive a turn or two, but the unit would just run off and healing would be its priority. Also, the other units would have to potentially waste turns trying to keep this unit alive by restoring HP.

IDK, I thought it'd be a fun twist. Yes, the unit would always come back, but it wouldn't be able to do anything unless it immediately healed itself and then it wastes its first turn giving the enemy a chance to take it down again. I'm not saying an Always: Reraise item should even be in the game...but this would just be an interesting twist if something were to come back with Always: Reraise.


One could force a loop of the enemy team chasing said perma-Critical unit around BECAUSE he's in Critical, and for the most part ignore his allies.

Honestly, there's not a whole lot you can do to balance an Always: Reraise without making it overpowered/worthless. Even doing something like Always: Death Sentence would be unbalanced, as with repeated Balance nukes, especially if the unit has 0 move.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 26, 2014, 01:39:46 pm
I'm not sure I follow you. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Maybe you're talking about move-hp up though and the unit being in an infinite loop since the enemy team will constantly chase the last unit around the map. However, for two reasons, that can't happen.

1. Move-hp up grants less hp than poison takes and...

2. When a critical unit is the last unit standing OR when all units on the team are in critical or dead, the AI switches into attack mode despite its critical status. At least that is my experience with it.

Again though, I could have misunderstood your point so apologies if my response is irrelevant to the point you were trying to make.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Dokurider on October 26, 2014, 04:12:05 pm
Quote2. When a critical unit is the last unit standing OR when all units on the team are in critical or dead, the AI switches into attack mode despite its critical status. At least that is my experience with it.


IF it's the last unit standing. Otherwise, you have the perfect AI bait loop, all with just one weapon, and you know that the AI prioritizes units in critical. It doesn't need to do anything else, just turn burning itself is good enough. Balance just took it to a whole new level. And there is nothing one can do about it except hope he's the last unit your team focuses on or breaking the Phoenix Blade.

You already can make yourself Poison Immune with Platina Helmet and Diamond Armlet and in fact, you have to if you don't want to get shut down by Hawk's Eye and Kiyomori and the like. Making Phoenix Blade Immune: Poison would have been even more broken by making even safer to abuse.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 26, 2014, 04:21:16 pm
My suggestion was to make it Always: Poison with nothing able to reverse it (of course with Immune: Regen). To make the PB use immune to poison would be wayyy broken.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 26, 2014, 05:15:52 pm
The problem with always poison is that the phoenix blade user will keep dying after a phoenix down which is a sure way to revive. Even if you use a raise or fairy spell to revive there's a chance that they will be softened up enough to drop again. Mages especially have this problem since the poison kicks im before the spell goes off. So having poison protection is a must anyways. And doku i think you meant diamond armor, not armlet. Diamond armlet cancels slow amd oil.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 26, 2014, 08:48:58 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on October 26, 2014, 04:21:16 pm
My suggestion was to make it Always: Poison with nothing able to reverse it (of course with Immune: Regen). To make the PB use immune to poison would be wayyy broken.

Another legitimate complaint is that it extended matches beyond reason.  We all enjoy the videos put up but I'm sure recording a match with a Phoenix Blade user was an eye rolling experience.  While game mechanics should comprise of 90% of what is or isn't balanced, I think taking into account the time strain put on recorders was something taken into account.  Granted that's something FFMaster can speak on, but I wouldn't be surprised if recorder strain was a factor.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on October 26, 2014, 09:14:03 pm
By that definition, reinoe, teams like Losers or Y U SO DERP or Wiz's thieves should have their primary tactics nerfed because they exploit tanking to make low probability events certain over time.  I don't think that's appropriate either.

Like I said, the main problem was that Phoenix Blade either was awsome or awful.  There was no middle ground.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 03, 2014, 05:08:10 am
How can I calculate berserk damage?

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 03, 2014, 11:58:41 pm
(I'm pretty sure that Berserk still is just a flat 150% to weapon attack damage regardless of what type of weapon you're using that would thus take place before Brave/Fury calculation.)

Alas, FFMaster would have to answer that if you want a definitive answer.

Anyway, though I don't have much else to say for now given Tuesday still has yet to pass us by, I'll just briefly comment on the Phoenix Blade argument I was intentionally staying out of even though it's already a done issue.

Yeah, I'm obviously using this as an excuse to procrastinate about something else.


Quote from: reinoe on October 26, 2014, 08:48:58 pm
Another legitimate complaint is that it extended matches beyond reason.  We all enjoy the videos put up but I'm sure recording a match with a Phoenix Blade user was an eye rolling experience.  While game mechanics should comprise of 90% of what is or isn't balanced, I think taking into account the time strain put on recorders was something taken into account.  Granted that's something FFMaster can speak on, but I wouldn't be surprised if recorder strain was a factor.


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on October 26, 2014, 09:14:03 pmLike I said, the main problem was that Phoenix Blade either was awsome or awful.  There was no middle ground.


Both of these things are ultimately what was wrong with Phoenix Blade, especially since the issue only got exponentially worse the more Phoenix Blades you added to a match. Matches with only one Phoenix Blade didn't drag significantly, as we saw with Celdia's team in the last tournament, though they did of course still drag a bit if Always: Reraise got a chance to kick in. However, just like with Masamune or Quickening or old Cursed Ring & Flash Hat, it's not like you should expect most people to only use one those pieces of equipment.

Matches with just two Phoenix Blade users, though, regularly dragged out to a repetitive 20-30 minutes and that's just if they were on the same side. If they were on opposing teams, then it was way too easy to end up having matches that literally would just not end, especially when combined with how overpowered Cursed Ring's guaranteed immediate resurrection was in 1.38 ARENA. We all know how many people were using Cursed Rings in that version as well.

Both those things combined with Quickening undermining Phoenix Blade's sole weakness beyond Weapon Break and the A.I.'s weirdly inconsistent inability to pay much attention to a unit when a Phoenix Blade unit would get back up is what made that "weapon" an item that I'm glad is gone.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 04, 2014, 02:12:53 am
Dude, teams with Phoenix Blade had terrible winrates. Especially if they had two Phoenix Blade users on the same time, cause then that team only effectively has three units. Enemy team just needs to beat down the non-Phoenix Blade users and they basically win. Due to Always: Slow, the non-Phoenix Blade users will charge ahead into the waiting arms of the enemy team. Quickening doesn't do anything for Phoenix Blade users cause it takes two uses of Quickening to get 1 point of speed, and because they're Always: Slow, it takes forever for them to even get two turns. And by then, the AI will probably prioritize something else (like attacking enemy units in range) rather than Quickening. Phoenix Blade's drawback is very real, and very tough to build around.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 04, 2014, 04:52:00 am
Berserk is 50% bonus PA, rounded down. Also note that they can use reactions properly, unlike in vanilla.

Once again, I will say that Phoenix Blade was changed because it made many battles 30 minute stallfests with the Phoenix Blade users getting no ground most of the time. I personally don't believe it was unbalanced, maybe a bit on the stronger end for sure with the right setups, but not outright OP like spellguns.

As a general rule, I try not to balance things based on "fun" or lack of it, and believe said "fun" will be derived from a well balanced game. However, I truly believe Phoenix Blade crossed way beyond my threshold of tolerance. When I would sometimes start falling asleep watching Arena videos, something is wrong.

If there is a way to bring back the idea of Phoenix Blade back but not be completely borked, we can give it another attempt. For now though, let's just leave it in the hole to rot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 04, 2014, 03:05:07 pm
(It's good to see both of you back.)

That said, CT5Holy, I said literally nothing about Phoenix Blade with regards to winning, much less having a high win-rate. So I'll readily agree that it didn't have a high win-rate, otherwise people would have been using it way more like they were with Cursed Ring, which was basically nigh-ubiquitous last revision. I was merely pointing why matches with Phoenix Blade took so damn long, especially since even in the likely event that team with Phoenix Blade lost, it still took way too damn long for them to lose an obviously lost match. After all, the A.I. has the annoying, unfortunate tendency to go after Critical units even if they have Always: Reraise.

I've said before that I don't think Phoenix Blade was actually a good weapon. It was just obnoxious and made the already selectively intelligent A.I. even dumber, basically being like another piece of armor rather than a weapon in most cases.

So, again, I'm glad it's gone and it has nothing do with it having a high win-rate since, you know, it didn't have that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 04, 2014, 03:34:27 pm
Current P Blade is 5-10 W-EV too high.

Is there a list of equipment that doesn't work as its supposed to?

Chakra Band (doesn't protect from petrify)
Bowgun (no proc)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 04, 2014, 03:47:14 pm
Damned: I suppose my issue is with this statement:
Quote from: The DamnedQuickening undermining Phoenix Blade's sole weakness


which I think is wrong, since Quickening + Phoenix Blade = do nothing.

Anyways, Phoenix Blade being gone for making things boring is totally fair. Yay for fun!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 04, 2014, 04:30:53 pm
Bow gun proc is working. I tested and it's working fine.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 05, 2014, 12:58:22 am
(Oh, so Bow Gun does work now? Good to know.)

Ugh. Finally finished voting.

Unfortunately, I am still not ready for how horrible tomorrow's/tonight's results will no doubt be. Go 'Murica.

Quote from: CT5Holy on November 04, 2014, 03:47:14 pm
Damned: I suppose my issue is with this statement:
which I think is wrong, since Quickening + Phoenix Blade = do nothing.


Noted. Even there I'm not saying that Quickening + Phoenix Blade = winning combination though, just that Quickening literally undermines old Phoenix Blade's sole "balancing" detriment, i.e. Always: Slow. Sure, the unit is still Slowed, can't be Hasted and needs to use Quickening twice as much as a normal unit does for half of the efficiency. However, getting back up to just a normal speed of 8 (from 16) is kind of a big deal and rather doable when you never permanently die or stay dead for more than one turn unless everyone else on your team has already been KO'd. Similarly, it's not like Phoenix Blade users didn't regularly have either Steal or Time Magic as their secondary, which respectively either brought them up to their opponent's level of speed (eventually) or quickly brought their opponents down to their level of speed easily.

I'll grant that this particular problem is the sole one from old Phoenix Blade that's become worse on the new Phoenix Blade, where only one Quickening is needed to get back to normal speed, but yeah...that's what I was getting at. Again, it had nothing to do with winning and everything to do with highlighting how tedious trying to record Phoenix Blade matches were.

Feel free to still disagree, especially since it's not like I'm trying to convince you given the old Phoenix Blade is already dead for good reasons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 05, 2014, 04:19:36 pm
Would Gastrophetes be too OP if it had 100% Cancel Positive Effects?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on November 05, 2014, 05:12:32 pm
No way. Seeing how both Chaos Blade and Gold Staff do the same thing, and give 20% evade, I highly doubt it. In fact, Chaos Blade is better than Gastrophetes and it's still barely being used (especially with Save The Queen & Ragnarok's recent buffs). I doubt giving Gastrophetes 100% cancel positive statii would make it better than it is currently; being both forced 2-H and having 0% evade isn't worth it.


Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on November 05, 2014, 06:24:17 pm
Chaos Blade was already close to being untouched even before the other Knight Sword buffs. Paladin just has way too many options to care about a single Chaos Blade, especially when most Paladins are doing Grand Cross/Southern Cross spam anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 05, 2014, 06:40:45 pm
(Basically.)

I think current Chaos Blade is still fine though. I think next change around be should be slightly weakening the new fiery Phoenix Blade and Ice Brand so that Grand Cross & Southern Cross is likely less attractive. That said, despite disagreeing with Dokurider about it earlier, I am reminded of something I wanted to say: Despite the fact that I think it's already decent enough, in light of all the other accessory buffs that I mostly agree with, I think N-Kai Armlet/Nu-Khai Armlet wouldn't be overpowered if it gained Immune: Blind in addition to what it already has.

That might just be me though.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you saw it yet or just answered silentkaster in PMs, FFMaster, but apparently Chakra Band isn't blocking Petrify like it's supposed. Unless you changed you that without putting it in the notes, which I'd personally be fine with being the case, omission aside. Still, it would be good to be certain either way.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 14, 2014, 07:26:08 pm
Does Reraise work with cursed ring?
Does HP Restore?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 14, 2014, 09:13:10 pm
Reraise is not in conjunction with cursed ring because while under undead status you are under the condition of possible self revival meaning that you can't get up by a raise spell or phoenix down. Cursed ring users however are an exception because they are immune to crystallization. HP Restore does work with undeads
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 14, 2014, 09:44:40 pm
Oh great. Was wondering what silentkaster meant by I should have dragon spirit and cursed ring.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 14, 2014, 09:50:09 pm
Dragon spirit is nice to put on sturdier or even evasive units because they need to live through physical hits. But one thing to keep in mind is unless you have ways to heal the unit with reraise expiring then its just another attempt for the enemy to slay the revived unit with low HP. That's why usually its better to give the dragon spirit user high HP and Hi-Potion for healing and either evasion or protect/defense UP. Cursed Ring users can get back with up a random amount of HP but again its prefered to have self healing or they will just sit in a corner
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andante49 on November 15, 2014, 01:23:13 am
More mime miscellany:

Are Flails included in Equip Light Blade? Or are they with Harps, Clothes, and Bags as off limits to mimes?

I've noticed Mimes not paying the MP cost of the abilities they preform (not mimic), for sure with Shuriken and Hawk's Eye haven't tested others.

Have experienced Mimes losing their weapons mid-battle, especially with Jumps and Summons that the Mime trys to mimic but targets a panel off of the map.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 15, 2014, 06:09:37 am
Good to know Barren. Never made a good dragon spirit or cursed ring unit before. Figure I'd do both in one go.

Do you calculate forced 2Hand weapons with double PA, or are they just 2handed weapons with no additional PA benefit? Bows too?

How does Two Hands work with MA based weapons?

Does Blood Sword drain off abilities like Kagesougi or any at all?

How come there's no way to cast reflect outside of mad science? It's too easy to dispel reflect to benefit from reflect ring and mail imo.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 15, 2014, 06:27:29 am
(I'll answer these in order to best of my knowledge.)

Forced Two Hand weapons get no added weapon boost despite needing Two Hands. That's part of the point of forcing them in most cases and hence why Knight Swords have such massive WP and yet don't easily hit for 400+ damage most of the time.

Yes. That's why a female Samurai or Bard using Whale Whisker with Two Hands is (still) so very dangerous.

This one, I'm not sure about. I don't think Blood Sword drain does since Kagesougi isn't technically normal attack. Then again, it does use a weapon strike and I'm pretty sure that Blood Sword's HP Drain works off Jump, though Jump is atypical so.... Shrug. Someone else will have to answer this one or you could just try it out in the meantime.

Mad Science doesn't add Reflect, actually, or rather it shouldn't be if it is; I don't think it is, but I'll admit I can't remember back to the last fight with Otabo's "Man Mode Strats" team. The only actual way currently to get Reflect is through Nameless Song, which is extremely unreliable, though that's not too surprising since I'd readily argue both Song and Dance have needed to just be overhauled for a while.

As for Reflect Ring and Mirror Mail/Reflect Mail becoming Always: Reflect, I could see that possibly working without being too overpowered since basically ever mage except Oracle has would have a way to get around that. "We" could easily change a spell or two in Yin-Yang Magic besides Dispel Magic to get around Reflect if that was the case--I'd personally vote for Spell Absorb & Life Drain since they've historically gotten around Reflect and see so little use.

That said, I'm ultimately undecided to that presently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 15, 2014, 02:26:59 pm
Always: Reflect would be pretty interesting..."Raise" and "Raise 2" are reflectable. I believe it was the same in Vanilla in that if you have Always: Reflect, you will not be able to use those spells on dead units as they will carry Reflect even while dead. So...might be interesting if that does happen.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 15, 2014, 02:56:00 pm
We've had Always: Reflect items before, and yeah, dead units would still have Reflect over their corpses.
I think FFM made those items Initial: Reflect so people could Raise/Raise 2 those units. Would feel bad losing cause you didn't know about that little interaction =P

Blood Sword will not drain off Kagesougi. 99%+ certain about this. Also fairly certain it won't drain off Jump, but I've never seen that before, so... guess I shouldn't say anything XD. Someone should test!

Reraise + Undead unit = unit will never get up once KO'd.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: TrueLight on November 15, 2014, 11:22:38 pm
After some testing:

A jumping Blood Sword user will not get healed by the jump. A Blood Sword - Kagesougi user will not get healed after the attack. A Blood Sword Kagesougi attack will also not heal undead units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 16, 2014, 01:28:36 am
Reraise + Undead makes a unit permanently dead? There goes my Hallows team.

Good to know on blood sword as well.wanted to make some absorb hp tanking units. Single Target damage won't do though. I got a team that'll change the meta though coming up for sure.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 16, 2014, 04:17:39 am
(This is what I get for being even lazier than usual yesterday.)

Having just finally tested it myself, I can confirm what TrueLight said. I must have been confusing Blood Sword + Jump with the ability of Jump to maybe still activate procs. I may be mis-remembering that as well, though, especially seeing as how I only just now realized today upon waking up that I really under-counted the amount of available Item Attribute space. It's annoying given I accurately counted it when doing the ARNEA 1.39 stuff in the event that FFMaster never returned, which thankfully never happened.

Anyway, that's solved at least. Thanks TrueLight.


Quote from: silentkaster on November 15, 2014, 02:26:59 pm
Always: Reflect would be pretty interesting..."Raise" and "Raise 2" are reflectable. I believe it was the same in Vanilla in that if you have Always: Reflect, you will not be able to use those spells on dead units as they will carry Reflect even while dead. So...might be interesting if that does happen.


Quote from: CT5Holy on November 15, 2014, 02:56:00 pm
We've had Always: Reflect items before, and yeah, dead units would still have Reflect over their corpses.

I think FFM made those items Initial: Reflect so people could Raise/Raise 2 those units. Would feel bad losing cause you didn't know about that little interaction =P


Meh. It's pointed out in the Master Guide that both Raise & Raise 2 are subject to Reflect. Given Always: Status clearly still apply even through dead in most cases, it's really the team maker's own fault for blanking out on that.

In any case, both Raises being subject to Reflect is what makes me want to use Always: Reflect given White Magic is easily one of the stronger Faith-based magic skills, if not the strongest just due to having the best resurrection. Weakening that a bit by forcing someone to choose between how defensive against magic they want to be would only be a good thing in my mind, especially since "we" could make Raise (1) get  around Reflect while Raise 2 didn't if we really wanted to.

I'm just not sure Always: Reflect is a "needed" change, at least for Reflect Ring; Mirror Mail/Reflect Mail is kinda meh though, but I'll readily admit that's my own horrible luck with it also talking.


Quote from: CT5Holy on November 15, 2014, 02:56:00 pm
Reraise + Undead unit = unit will never get up once KO'd.


Quote from: Shintroy on November 16, 2014, 01:28:36 am
Reraise + Undead makes a unit permanently dead? There goes my Hallows team.


No, Reraise + Undead doesn't actually seem to make sure you "stay" dead if Undead, at least if you make the Undead unit Immune: Crystal & Treasure. I thought much the same thing for a long while because Lady Luck hates me despite all my testing, but I was shown differently at least two years ago. I'm pretty sure the video is even in this subforum.

Besides, Dragon Spirit shouldn't really work on Undead units anyway since, unless FFMaster changed this, Undead both cancels and blocks Reraise status. I'm pretty sure that he didn't change that, so it shouldn't ever come up anyway, using Diamond Helmet with Cursed Ring aside given Initial & Always: Status always trump immunities for some reason.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 16, 2014, 05:06:14 am
Ah I see. The only thing close to this I tested was 138 phoenix blade and trying to work around the Always slow with equipment with immune slow. I figure it would be possible since you're able to poison a unit with always Regen.

silentkaster uploaded a video of my Hallows team about two days ago. The AI from the other team seemed to straight ignore ky cursed ring, dragon spirit unit entirely so I never got to see of it would work. I'll go with it probably not working though. No use wasting time in having a broken team being recorded or commentated on.
I really tried to make that theme work.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 16, 2014, 11:23:08 am
(This is probably my last comment for today between how long I've been awake and how I'll be away for at least five hours.)

You can Poison a unit with one of the Always: Regen items because a) Regen doesn't block Poison and b) Regen isn't being constantly reapplied by those items, but rather is just constant. This is why you can't use a Regen-adding ability to get rid of Poison on those same units since they still, technically, have Regen; it's just that Poison is overriding it since it cancels Regen.

Undead completely blocks Reraise, so...yeah. Again, it's not going to work unless FFMaster changed it and I'm pretty sure that he didn't since there's literally no reason for him to do so.

Like I said, if you really want to screw around with Reraise & Undead at the same time, then Diamond Helmet with Cursed Ring is a completely valid option.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on November 19, 2014, 12:01:28 pm
I think Stall's JP cost should be 200 or 250.  Stop < Sleep in terms of the AI (because the AI will not attack the sleeping unit, keeping it out of play for longer) and Mimic Daravon (also 300 JP) is AoE with only 5% less hit chance.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 19, 2014, 05:00:04 pm
I don't think Talk skill needs a nerf since there's also Yin Yang Magic and Time Magic that benefit from faith (faith up, rod, pilgrimage). Not even mentioning compatibility affecting talk skill more than anything else. There's always units having anti status gear as well, and abilities like Heal and item thst don't cover multiple status effects.

I can agree with a slight stall JP reduction, but at the same time I don't think it matters since there's always ai tournaments and no jp limit team making. Stall 250, Daravon 300, 200 blackmail seems the most sound though. Mediators do tend to have jp to spare anyway. 250 or 300 sounds perfect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 23, 2014, 04:22:23 am
Been messing with the Zombie status and just wanted to clear some things up.
- Are undead weak vs Holy? If so by how much?
-Blood Sword reverses Drain damage on undead, but does Healing Staff harm undead?
-Can you remove the undead status on downed units, and is the revival chance still 50%?

Mostly curious of how friendly ai act with undead units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on November 23, 2014, 08:02:44 am
(I'll try to answer these to best of my ability, but only FFMaster (or maybe Dokurider) could give definite answers.)

Also, you'll need to rephrase some of your questions better. What do you mean by "friendly A.I. act with Undead units" exactly?

Regardless, in order:


1. No, Undead units still aren't innately weak against Holy. If they were, then it would be the still stand 200% weakness every other instance of "Weak" creates. Undead units are also still not, at least as far as I'm aware, innately absorbent of Dark.

2. Healing Staff should harm the Undead. The same goes for Murasame the katana (though that's also true for the [overpowered] ability). I'm almost 100% sure of this; I just can't remember if it's happened (as of late).

3. No, even if Dead weren't (somewhat unfortunately) apparently hard-coded to not interact with anything that isn't a Cancel: Dead ability, being able to do remove Undead status on a downed unit would defeat a large part of the usefulness of Undead status as an offensive tool. As for the revival chance, yes, even without Cursed Ring, it's still a 50/50 chance of getting up or becoming a Crystal; it's just that Cursed Ring (now) blocks Crystal, so with Cursed Ring it's a 50/50 of getting up or staying down for another turn after you would have otherwise become a Crystal.


I'm pretty sure all of this stuff is still the same as it was in vanilla, but only FFMaster can know for sure. (Well, I guess PX could too technically, but he's never around, so....)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 28, 2014, 06:45:41 am
Trying to scrap my worst team for a solid team with a Grand Cross unit. I have to know though, since rainbow staff counts as all elements, does pairing it with grand cross and any absorb element equipment make you absorb the attack? No way to testing it myself. I'm just going to assume if it works you can pair up with the matching strengthen equipment as well.

I doubt it working, but I can't escape the thought without confirmation. Earth clothes plus rainbow staff grand cross shouldn't worm since there are the other 7 elements to think of.

Does pairing rainbow staff with 108 gems do anything? Can someone just test rainbow staff please?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on November 28, 2014, 01:03:26 pm
Last I checked, Rainbow Staff isn't all elements. I thought that was removed a long time ago, unless FFM forgot to change that in the master guide?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on November 29, 2014, 03:09:55 am
Oh yeah, the master guide has rainbow staff down as an all element staff. Probably forgot to updatethe weapon since its so underused. Went ahead and solved my problem though.

Anyway, I've been trying to get people who play Tactics into Arena. Problem is after I have someone download everything they then have to learn how to build units and teams with outdated teams. My solution to this was to make easier versions of teams. There's three levels of difficulty I figured would work without being too overwhelming for a new player.

Easy - Teams can only use one job per unit.
Normal - Only two jobs per unit.
Hard - Teams with a single unit above 3 jobs fall under the hard category. All current teams would fall under this category already.

I figure for medium and easy teams, under "player", anyone interested in making Easy or Hard teams could just put (E) or (M) followed by their name(for example I'd put Player: (E) Shintroy). This way when I eventually make a memory card generator for 139, easier teams are easy to find.

Anyone like or dislike this idea? Anything I could do better?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 14, 2014, 07:44:06 pm
Joining in the Quickening Fray...I believe the discussion belongs in this thread though.


I think everyone uses the ability since speed is such a monster stat in this game. Whether it's undead, not undead, a tanky item bot, a PA stacked Monk, or something else, Speed stat is huge.

But, I think The Damned's major complaint about the ability (or at least one of them) is that it is one of three abilities that affect speed, the other two being just...so underpowered and difficult to use. Take Cheer Song for instance...it becomes iffy to use with 11 Speed or Higher, and it becomes near impossible to use with 16 Speed or higher (though I'd imagine at that point the match would be, in most cases, pretty much decided, since Cheer Song hits 33% of the time, and that would average on an 8 speed unit 24 uses of Cheer Song at 10CT each...yikes.) However, Cheer Song's low accuracy combined with its flaws that the AI can't seem to cope with at high speeds make it an ability that most overlook. Slow Dance has even lower accuracy, the same CT, and both of these abilities usually need to dedicate one unit to using them while the other three try to hold off the enemy's assault to buy time.

However, Quickening can be used multiple times on a Map, in some cases before the units even reach each other, is instant, and has 100% accuracy. It's often combined with Cursed Ring units since even when they die, they get back up and Quickening obviously helps that happen sooner.

I think that Quickening got a de-buff definitely since Cursed Ring now only revives 50% of the time when it becomes that unit's turn, had a JP increase, and now that Flash Hat does not provide Initial Innocent, but it is still an ability that is highly used and there are ways around all of these de-buffs.

If we're not willing to delete Quickening, my idea would be to lower the accuracy if possible. A CT would be interesting, as it removes evade from the unit temporarily and does further de-buff, but the end result is still the same for the most part. However, having the ability only work 50% of the time (while still costing MP) would be I think an appropriate de-buff. Hell, you could even give Quickening Range like the ability "Yell" has but if it has only 50% accuracy (maybe we could do 45% + MA or something to make it somewhat vary) it's gonna be on par with the other two abilities since those hit all targets for lower accuracy, but Quickening would only hit 1 target with somewhat better accuracy.

If none of this is acceptable, then my final suggestion is to put Quickening in a skill set that would make it difficult to use bare. Steal Heart and Steal Accessory are great to have with Quickening, as Charm and Stealing Accessories could really affect a team and hurt them. However, putting Quickening in say, the Lore skillset or Black Magic skill set would definitely make sure that a player MUST choose these skillsets in order to use Quickening. I do not believe that Quickening will work with other abilities in these skillsets (though I haven't done thorough testing, I've done some and it doesn't seem to work well with them), so a player will be forced to get Quickening only from these skillsets and will essentially be less versatile.

Those are just my thoughts though :)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 14, 2014, 08:46:49 pm
(I think the team rates are a bit "backward" given how difficult it is to make effective units from only one job, even in teams where everyone's Primary Job is the exact same. That, I can understand what you're getting at given, among other things, it's really difficult to get used to the 250 JP cost to open things. I'm not sure how to improve things though. Sorry. [/late reply...at Shintroy's last post before silentkaster apparently posted an hour ago while I was typing this])

Speaking of improving things, I figure I'd put down my suggestions to overhaul Song and Dance from the changes I made while making a potential "backup" 1.39 version of Arena before FFMaster returned. Whether or not you're of the mind they're affected detrimentally by Quickening, in my opinion, they're both in dire need of help, especially the latter, which basically sees no use now with the arguably necessary change to Oil status meaning Nameless Dance is completely toothless, especially with Slow 2 as powerful as it is still; Stop's buff and Stall now existing don't do it any favors either. Even Song doesn't really have much variation in its between very few classes being able to make good use of Life Song, Cheer Song being counterproductive after a point, Nameless Song being even worse than Nameless Dance and Last Song not working with Mimes. So it's mainly used on stat-buff bots with Angel Song as backup.

Speaking of Mimes, among the changes I made/was going to make was having nothing map-wide be able to Mimicked, which includes of course all of Song and Dance as well as half of Lore. I'm not sure if that would be necessary provided any of these seem like good ideas in the first place worthy of inclusion. Regardless, I'm just giving context for some of things, especially since I'm sure people will think what I suggested for half of Dance is at least somewhat overpowered--it may well be so.

Without further ado, anything in bold is something changed from the current state of affairs, with the exception of most names:


BARD:
Song (rather than Sing)


Angel Song: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 5 (rather than 4, though in 1.38, I think it was actually still 6 accidentally); MP: 5; Formula 1C Hit_(X)%, X = 100, MP Heal: MA + Y, Y = 13; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Allies; Status: 25% Cancel: Silence & Berserk; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Life Song: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 5 (rather than 4, though in 1.38, I think it was actually still 6 accidentally); MP: 5; Formula 1C Hit_(X)%, X = 100, HP Heal: MA + Y, Y = 23; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Allies; Status: 25% Random Add: Reraise or Regen; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Cheer Song: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 6; MP: 5; Formula 1C Hit_(X)%, X = 66, +0 Speed; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Allies; Status: 100% Random Add: Haste or Float; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Battle Song*: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 8; MP: 5; Formula 1C Hit_(X)%, X = 66, +1 PA; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Allies; Status: -; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Magic Song*: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 8; MP: 5; Formula 1C Hit_(X)%, X = 66, +1 MA; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Allies; Status: -; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Nameless Song: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 8; MP: 5; Formula 1C Hit_(X)%, X = 100; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Allies; Status: 100% Random Add: Defending, Protect, Shell or Reflect; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Last Song: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 10; MP: 5; Formula 1C Hit_(X)%, X = 40**, Add: Quick (CT +128); EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Allies; Status: -; Counter: -; 200 JP.

****

DANCER:
Dance


Witch Hunt**: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 6; MP: 5; Formula 1D Hit_(X)%, X = 100, MP Damage = PA + Y, Y = 8; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Enemies; Status: 20% Random Add: Silence or Berserk; Counter: -; 200 JP.

With Knives (instead of the "Engrish" that is "Wiznaibus")**: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 6; MP: 5; Formula 1D Hit_(X)%, X = 100, HP Damage = PA + Y, Y = 13; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Enemies; Status: 20% Random Add: Undead or Poison; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Slow Dance: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 6; MP: 5; Formula 1D Hit_(X)%, X = 50, -0 Speed; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Enemies; Status: 100% Random Add: Slow or Immobilize (Don't Move); Counter: -; 200 JP.

Polka Polka: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 8; MP: 5; Formula 1D Hit_(X)%, X = 50, -1 PA; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Enemies; Status: -; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Disilllusion: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT:  8; MP: 5; Formula 1D Hit_(X)%, X = 50, -1 MA; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Enemies; Status: -; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Nameless Dance: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 8; MP: 5; Formula 1D Hit_(X)%, X = 75; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Enemies; Status: 100% Random Add: Blind (Darkness), Oil or Disable (Don't Act)***; Counter: -; 200 JP.

Last Dance: Range: 0; AoE: 255; Vert: 255; CT: 10; MP: 5; Formula 1D Hit_(X)%, X = 40**, CT to 00; EV?: -; Rfl: No; Special: All Enemies; Status: -; Counter: -; 200 JP.


So...yeah, feedback, comments, flames, insults, whatever. Please give it.

I mean, does anyone else have any ideas about what we can to make Dance and, to a much lesser degree, (all of) Song actually worth using?


*Battle Song and Magic Song weren't changed despite my early objections about a year ago that they didn't need to be buffed from 50% to 66%, especially in light of the lack of change to the already much-harder-to-use Polka Polka and Disillusion having hit rates still less than 50%. I still don't think they should be that high, at especially Mime with around, but I was and still would be willing let them stay there as long as Polka Polka and Disillusion saw some improvement.


**I'd be willing to up the percentage or power of all of the abilities at least somewhat marginally if Mime died or at least if they weren't able to be Mimicked. I mean, I initially agreed with CT5Holy that Last Song and Last Dance should probably go back up to 50%...before figuring that Last Dance would probably become really obnoxious with Mimes if that was the case. As it is, since Mimes can't mimic Quick stuff or at least Last Song, that could probably go up to 50% if Mimes stuck around--it would just be unfair to Dance given Song is already a much better skill-set than it.

Also, in the spirit of full disclosure, I'll admit that I buffed Witch Hunt and With Knives chance to add status slightly from 15% to 20%. I also greatly weakened Angel Song's chance to heal status since it was originally 100% despite the fact that most Silence vulnerable units block Silence anyway. It was mostly that high just because of Berserk, which I had wanted and still rather want to make finite anyway, especially now that Salty Rage is back to being Always: Berserk as it "should" be.


***Yes, the new Nameless Dance would have a chance to add Disable/Don't Act. No, there really isn't a better option without stepping on something other Dance ability or generally being overpowered even though there are literally twice as many negative statuses as there are positive ones. Sleep and Stop would step on Last Dance, which already sees no use and Sleep currently lasts too damn long. Everything else, such as Death Sentence, Frog, Charm and the KO status, would simply be worse/more powerful.

Also, given this was before Oil got nerfed to no longer add Weak: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Water, Wind and Earth, it's probably fine of it add Disable. ...Probably. Taking away Disable isn't really an option either given that the new Nameless Dance would become even more toothless than current version of it even if it simultaneously became more reliable ironically. I mean, just Random Add: Blind or Oil might work, but I really doubt it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 17, 2014, 08:15:56 pm
Damned,

Here are my thoughts on your ideas by item.

Angel Song- Interesting idea to cancel Silence & Berserk, but meh...I don't think the AI would take advantage of that personally. I don't think it would be much of a buff, so I would propose making Angel Song 0 MP to use instead. Therefore, a singer can use it at 0 MP which is a good counter to say Bizen Boat or, to a lesser degree, Magic Ruin and Spell Absorb.

Life Song- I agree fully.

Cheer Song- The AI loves to use Haste and I'm afraid it may never stop singing this song if Haste were added. Also, I personally feel the Earth element has been nerfed with this newest patch to a great degree, and this would nerf it even more. I have a unique idea though...66% Random Add: Transparent, OR +1 Speed OR Faith (therefore, spell casters, and melee users would benefit no matter what, though not necessarily every time.)

Battle Song: No Changes, I think it's fine.

Magic Song: See Above.

Nameless Song: I think Haste belongs here, along with Reflect, Protect and Shell. Also, Random 25% (when it hits) remove all Negative Status.

Last Song: I think is fine.

Dance:

Witch Hunt: I think 20% add Berserk is a bit much. Silence is fine (since most mages carry an item to combat that anyway) and maybe put Innocent as the other random proc.

Wiznaibus: I think Poison should be Don't Move instead. Also, undead is a bit extreme in my opinion. Perhaps Slow would also be another Random Buff it could add.

Polka Polka: No changes

Disillusion: No changes

Nameless Dance: I don't think I like DA being one of the procs. I always thought Poison should be here, along with Silence, Blind, Oil, Remove all Positive Buffs, Undead and/or Death Sentence.

Last Dance: I think it's fine.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on December 17, 2014, 10:11:56 pm
Songs

Life - Heals HP. 50% Cancel Blind
Angel - Heals MP. 50% Cancel Silence
Cheer - Same 25%, but gives +1 Speed OR Haste
Battle and Magic I agree with you Damned. Compatibility buffs songs enough at 50%
Nameless - 33-40% Add Protect, Shell, Regen, Reflect, or cancel negative effects
Last - Fine as is due to the chance of mine not being able to mimic it if they receive the quick effect.

Dances

Wiz - HP Damage. 50% Add Blind
Witch Hunt - MP Damage. 50% Add Silence
Slow Dance - 25% Add Stop or -1 Speed
MA and PA Dances - See Songs
Nameless - 33-40% Add Poison, Slow, Oil, Don't Move, or Cancel Positive Effects
Last Dance - 20% 00 CT. 1 CT faster than Last Song. Mimes will always mimic this unlike last song.

I was thinking the PA and MA abilities could instead do the 50%  thing I have going on with the SP abilities.
Battle Song 33% Add 1 PA or Heals Blind and Don't Move
Magic Song could cancel silence and berserk.
Dances would do the opposite of course

Not a fan of the above though. Bard AI probably wouldn't use these, and it woukdnt be worth using without a mime. The AI has problems with using accumulate, so I don't think  it would be a good idea to change them.

Adding undead to a dance is a terrible idea. There are only two ways to get rid of the status. Players could make zombie teams easier since they could bypass ability priority easily. Getting an oracle to use zombie takes a coupe of turns at least. Unless you only give the oracle zombie, and its bit easy to mimic since they'd have to space it perfectly with the mime unlike a dance.

Is it even possible to out cancel positive/negative status effects in a song/dance? It's the best way to avoid having don't move and don't act in a nameless. silentkaster is definitely onto something. there aren't enough buffs to balance out negative effects so it would definitely be an improvement from current performance abilities.

I think with my SP performance abilities we could lower the CT to 8-9.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 18, 2014, 10:38:11 pm
(I thank you both for the comments, though I see that you didn't comment on Slow Dance, silentkaster.)

For the record, no, it's currently not possible to both add and cancel statuses during the same action unfortunately. It may be one of those relatively few "will never be possible" things. The closest you can do currently is add a status that happens to cancels other statuses, which is why part of why I tried to make opposing Dances had pair up with the statuses that opposing Songs could cause. While I'm less certain about it, I'm not sure you can add stats and status at the same time as well.

Of course, this parity isn't neccessarily equal even then given the understandable problems with using Zombie to oppose Reraise for example. Ironically, using the "actual" oppositional status to Reraise, Death Sentence, is both worse and weaker given the way that Wiznaibus works, i.e. inflicting damage that would just set off Dragon Spirit with the current way Death Sentence works.

Still, there may be some merit to changing a Song or maybe even a Dance to just cancel status even though I'm not personally a fan of that option, especially with Dance already being way too passive and far more opponent-dependent than basically every other skill set.


Quote from: silentkaster on December 17, 2014, 08:15:56 pm
Damned,

Here are my thoughts on your ideas by item.

Angel Song- Interesting idea to cancel Silence & Berserk, but meh...I don't think the AI would take advantage of that personally. *snip*


I'll comment on these in order via spoiler given my responses here are far lengthier than the ones to Shintroy:

1. Angel Song - I disagree that Angel Song should become 0 MP since it's already one of the few Songs generally worth using and since MP-damaging abilities, sans Bizen Boat, are already really weak. Song is already immune to Silence; it doesn't need another thing it gets to do for free. As for Silence & Berserk, that's mostly there just because of the current just suggested changes to Witch Hunt. It's not meant to be something that A.I. actively takes advantage of, especially since like 95% of mages block Silence anyway. I also figured have another


2. Cheer Song - I'd be fine with not using Float even though nothing else causes it and even though I don't really agree that Earth say much of a nerf with this new patch. The only relevant Earth-related things that changed are Magic Ring now absorbing it, the nerf to Flash Hat & Thief Hat, the change to Chirijiraden the katana that I've said I disagree with and Oil got severely weakened to no longer add: Weak, which really affects the already weak Bad Luck and Nameless Dance abilities than it affects Earth or any other element. Of these, I'm guessing it's Magic Ring you're talking about, but, meh, most of those units don't cancel Oil, otherwise they'd be using Diamond Armlet and similarly most of those units don't Float.

That said, Float is mostly there due to the fact that I've thought it and Don't Move opposed each other even though "officially" they don't. Also because of the fact that nothing can cause that status save for Mad Science, which frankly is more of a threat to Earth than this version of Cheer Song would be.

On top of that, the thing is that there really isn't a better status to use ith the dearth of positive statuses. Transparent is a status that makes computer act extremely wonky if it's not a  permanent status. The A.I. will often just completely forego acting to try to perserve Transparent, which is why as much I've complained about Hidden Knife over the years, giving it "Initial: Transparent" was never an option to me.

I guess Cheer Song could Add: Faith, but that seems rather overpowering as well as conflicting with Magic Song and, as I said above, I'm not exactly sure that you can even add a stat and/or a status at the same time or even have that option on the same move.

For the record, I'm entirely fine with the A.I. "obsessing" over Cheer Song given that the A.I. obsesses over Songs anyway, given that the A.I. obsesses over Haste status anyway and given it would mean that A.I. would be consistent with Sing for once without Cheer Song becoming outright useless after its user hits 13 Speed. So long as it's not inferior to Quickening anymore if Quickening isn't going to die in a fire while still being fair, then I'm fine with that since it's not like you have to use it.


3. Nameless Song - That said, given your reasoning for arguing against Haste above, I'm not sure why you want it here, especially when the A.I. tends to "obsess" over Nameless Song due to Reraise. Sure, it's only after someone on the team gets damaged, but it's effectively the same time of obsession given it will often conflict with Life Song on the same unit.

As already pointed out, being able to cancel status like that is unfortunately (currently) impossible.


4. Witch Hunt - I'll agree that Berserk might be a bit much, especially if it stays infinite in duration (which I think it shouldn't). I debated Innocent, however, and figured it would be even worse really given at least some mages can do good or even great damage with physical damages while Berserk. Meanwhile, only the Nether spells, Wall, Comet and Carbunkle escape being rendered effectively useless by Innocent with there also being no real way to cancel or block Innocent; this is the problem I have with both the new Atheist Bow and, with regards to Faith, the unnecessary switch (in my eyes) between Spell Edge and Muramasa the katana.


5. Wiznaibus - Poison is the only way Wiznaibus generally gets to actually do damage against any unit with Auto Potion, especially if we're not letting it get Undead. Not letting it get Undead is fine since I agree that's probably extreme. Giving it Don't Move as well as Poison may be a way to go. I don't think it should get Slow though, mostly because of Slow Dance but also partly because I was trying to personally avoid status overlap between Dances. Of course, given that I gave Slow Dance a chance to add Don't Move....


6. Nameless Dance - I can understand not liking Don't Act on Nameless. You realize that Death Sentence is even worse though, right? I mean, even with Nameless Dance's notorious unreliability, it harkens back to the "auto-win" Nameless Dance that still caused Frog early in Arena before Nameless Dance got nerfed (into the ground).



Quote from: Shintroy on December 17, 2014, 10:11:56 pm
Songs

Life - Heals HP. 50% Cancel Blind
Angel - Heals MP. 50% Cancel Silence
Cheer - Same 25%, but gives +1 Speed OR Haste
Battle and Magic I agree with you Damned. Compatibility buffs songs enough at 50%
Nameless - 33-40% Add Protect, Shell, Regen, Reflect, or cancel negative effects
Last - Fine as is due to the chance of mine not being able to mimic it if they receive the quick effect.

Dances

Wiz - HP Damage. 50% Add Blind
Witch Hunt - MP Damage. 50% Add Silence
Slow Dance - 25% Add Stop or -1 Speed
MA and PA Dances - See Songs
Nameless - 33-40% Add Poison, Slow, Oil, Don't Move, or Cancel Positive Effects
Last Dance - 20% 00 CT. 1 CT faster than Last Song. Mimes will always mimic this unlike last song.


Much shorter responses here than to silentkaster, though I guess I'll them in a spoiler too just to save space:

1. Life - Might be good, if only for Grand Cross teams that don't want to use Angel Ring.

2. Angel - Would be fine.

3. Cheer - This may not be possible at all; I don't think it is. Otherwise, I might be fine with it.

4. Nameless Song - As said above, you can't cancel negative status effects while adding positive ones unless they're oppositional. That or unless you add a positive status to game specifically meant to cancel negative status ala Astra/Veil.

5. "With Knives" - It this doesn't really address the actual problem with Wiznaibus, but it would at least keep it from getting screwed over as easily from PA Save, which I guess would be an improvement over Poison given Masamune, Nurse, Esuna and Stigma Magic are pretty damn common.

6. Witch Hunt - Unfortunately I'm not sure just Silence would help much, but it would definitely be an improvement.

7. Slow Dance - This is both likely impossible and would probably obviate Last Dance even if it did work.

8. Nameless Dance - See Nameless Song, only invert the situation with adding in a new status that would instead be a negative status meant specifically to cancel positive status.

9. Last Dance - I'm really not sure why you would want to lessen its chance to hit so much, especially since Mimes aren't 100% reliable and you shouldn't have to use them on every time with Dance to try to shore up Dance's utter weakness. That said, you may be on to something with making Last Dance faster.


Quote from: Shintroy on December 17, 2014, 10:11:56 pm
Not a fan of the above though. Bard AI probably wouldn't use these, and it woukdnt be worth using without a mime. The AI has problems with using accumulate, so I don't think it would be a good idea to change them.


Huh? The A.I. uses Accumulate and Alacrity/Focus fine. It just won't do it can generally do damage or negative status or think it needs to heal/revive. It's the same with Battle Song and Magic Song, which is part of the reason why I don't think they should be so high and part of the reason you never want to give your unit with Sing too much Move or a weapon with a lot of range.

Quote from: Shintroy on December 17, 2014, 10:11:56 pm
Adding undead to a dance is a terrible idea. *snip*


Yeah. Probably. Unfortunately, there's not much better options given that Death Sentence, Frog, Petrify, Charm, Sleep and even Stop would probably be worse, to say nothing of the obvious problems of using KO or Crystal (or, if they were still around, Treasure, Blood Suck or Confusion).


****


So that we all don't end up just talking past each other, I'll end this post by doing what I probably should have done initially: talking about what I feel the problems are with the current versions of Song and Dance:


SONG
Life Song: As I outright said in the last post, this generally has the main issue of only being usable on high MA units and, thus, when it comes to males, generally only on Bards. I guess Samurai and Geomancer and maybe Squires could also make decent use of it as far as classes  that males might actually be go given that males tend to forego being mages given they're inferior to females at that in most instances.

Angel Song: This is currently fine.

Cheer Song: Oh, where do we start? It's currently vastly inferior to Quickening and about every other more reliable way to add speed, whether it's Haste (2), Masamune (the ability), Speed Save or even, arguably, Critical Quick and Last Song. It's hit rate is abysmal despite this and its also one of the longer Songs. On top of that, it basically makes the user useless if they happen to hit 13 Speed since then they'll keep Singing and canceling it with no resolution since the A.I. is dumb like that. Joy.

Battle Song: This is currently fine. Actually, it's more than fine since I still don't understand why it was buffed to 66% given it's one of the few Songs the A.I. will use "intelligently", especially when it's able to be Mimicked, but meh. I'm currently through with trying to get it changed back to 50% or at least not be as high.

Magic Song: See above.

Nameless Song: This is currently way too unreliable, even more so than Nameless Dance, which is saying a lot. The current set-up either has a unit getting a chance at second life, becoming less susceptible to physical damage, becoming less susceptible to magical damage or becoming sporadically immune to various magic and the -tons. Despite it's general defensive nature, that's...not exactly cohesive in focus, especially since it's chance to hit any of those is rather low, effectively 12.5% for each. Also interferes with Life Song due to the reactive-only way the A.I. unfortunately uses all of those statuses. On top of all that, it's basically inferior to anything Chivalry or White Magic can do, exclusivity of adding Reflect aside.

Last Song: This is mostly fine now that its hit rate has been increased again, though I'd actually be fine with it going back to 50% now that I've been reminded that Quick can't really be Mimicked. In fact, since Shintroy has made me think about it, I could also see this maybe going down to 8 CT even given that Last Song is somewhat inferior to just adding Haste on even an 8 Speed unit.


DANCE
Witch Hunt: Most MP-damaging attacks frankly suck, by no fault of FFMaster but rather their very (weak) nature, and Witch Hunt is no exception. With its only effect being low if repetitive MP damaging, Witch Hunt paradoxically only tends to affect units that already have low MP anyway rather than the mages its presumably "supposed" to target. Due to the nature of MP being finite and not automatically restored, most mages have ways to restore their already sizeable MP, where its MP Restore, Move-MP Up, Carbunkle or (Hi-)Ether. All of these, sans regular Ether, readily outpace Witch Hunt. On top of that, now that Witch Hunt uses MP, it triggers Absorb MP and that unit restores 30 in reaction to it, which is completely defeatist.

With Knives: Outside its Engrish name, the chief problems with "Wiznaibus" is mostly, as with Comet, it getting readily beaten by Auto-Potion & the Save reactions while at the same time being too rapid to be substantially buffed in damage, especially since it can be Mimicked. So, much like the paradox of Witch Hunt, it only tends to affect already low HP units, even with the Poison attached to it, especially since Poison was (and still is, even with Cure becoming instant) more of a threat to squishy mages than Silence is arguably.  Aside from the small nerf to Auto Potion, this is very much the case still and will continue to be unless you make Witch Hunt or (something) capable of shutting off reactions; annoyingly, my idea to have Death Sentence block Reactions wouldn't really benefit With Knives.

Slow Dance: Like Cheer Song, this is basically invalidated by Quickening. Unlike Cheer Song, if Quickening wasn't around, then even in its current form with its abysmal hit rate, this would doubtless be readily abused since permanently stripping away Speed is egregiously overpowered given how (unfortunately) all-important Speed is as a stat. Really, the only reason it wouldn't be abused if Quickening did die in a fire (like it should) would be because people didn't want rounds to regularly end up being about 20~ minutes or so. It doubtless needs to eradicated in its current form and just overhauled given it currently violently vacillates between being completely useless and vastly overpowered.

Polka Polka: Given how difficult it is to use this and Disillussion due to their effectiveness being completely dependent on what type of team that user ends up facing, there's absolutely no reason they should be so much less likely to hit than Battle Song and Magic Song. This especially due to the fact that Battle Song and Magic Song are much easier to use and build around.

Disillusion: See above.

Nameless Dance: This is rather unreliable much like Nameless Song, though unlike Nameless Song the A.I. will at least actively use this. This has only gotten more toothless with the necessary depowering of Oil, which basically makes it nigh worthless despite being able to add Slow. After all, Grand Cross and Kagesougi are much more reliably about adding Blind, Hawk's Eye is better if you want Oil and most mages block Silence anyway--even if they didn't, as with Nameless Song, it's only about a 12.5% chance of any status hitting. So it really needs to be threatening again without going back to stupidity of vanilla's Nameless Dance "hey, if I get Frog, I win" that early Arena Nameless Dance had.

Last Dance: This...seems like it "should" be useable in theory, especially with Mimes around and its accuracy being buffed. The problem is, of course, in part Quickening as well as the fact that Haste on any unit with more than 8 Speed makes it CT drain rather difficult to make useful. It should probably just be made faster in CT, like CT 9 or even 8. I still don't think it should be allowed to be Mimicked though, even if it has to "stand out" from the rest of Dance in that aspect. (For the record, I still don't agree with all of Song and Dance being able to be Mimicked, but meh.)


[I'll proofread this better later.]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 18, 2014, 11:16:20 pm
Damned, sorry I forgot Slow Dance. I think Slow Dance should do the opposite. Add Innocent OR -1 speed OR Add Stop. with its low hit rate, I think that's fine.

I can't give a proper response now as I am on mobile and not even my usual phone. I took my laptop in..defective hard drive apparently. Two to three week wait. Hopefully can do videos again when it is back.

I do have a question. Is Battle Axe proccing correctly? Seems to be more often that 25% but could be wrong.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on December 19, 2014, 05:33:35 am
Cheer/Last Song - x% add Haste or Quick
SP /Last Dance - x% add Slow or 00 CT

If it were possible to do the above we could rid the game of permanent CT stacking. We also would only need one speed related ability on each class as well. 8 CT for Song and 9 CT seems fair. I don't know how to calculate WP and CT, but I'd like to see the new songs usable for units 10 speed and lower mainly.

Quickening - Add 20-25 CT. 0-1 Cast time

Don't really see it being abused. Mime could at most gain 40-50 CT from it being on two units. Could probably even increase Cursed ring to 66% chance of reviving since quickening will no longer be a staple ability for supporting pseudo immortal units.

Silentkaster's Slow Dance
I don't think the the stop status sshould be included in any dances since there isn't a buff that could counter it, and since its already been buffed enough. There never needs to be a mimicable map-wide stop proc.

The Damned's Wiz/Witch Hunt

For Wiz/Knives It's completely okay auto potion, regen, and move HP up counter it. It's an anti sandbag ability. Mainly used to counter phoenix down or wish revival and does it pretty well as it is now. It could probably use 5-15 more damage though. Maybe just enough to take out a unit bought back by revive. I agree on it ignoring reactions too, but only if the damage isn't buffed.

Witch Hunt

You have to look at the entire picture for this dance. It barely dents most casters, but hurts melee units with low MP pools like ninja, paladin, and other physical jobs. If it also bypassed reactions like you mentioned it would be a better ability. Actually now that I think about it, back when I first got into arena with wanting a weapon thst dealt MP damage everyone pointed out AI using MP damaging abilities in certain situations unlike Wiz/With. Even if it were to ignore reactions, it couldnt deal a high amount of damage since it would cripple more than half the job list PA + 8 -18 base MP damage seems fair if it ignores reactions.
------
Man its hard to balance these if they're mimicable actually. Witch hunt would have to do 20 base damage for a dancer.  I'd leave these abilities as they are now the more I think about them. Should just focus on last, cheer, and nameless.

There's no way to put chaos blade/gold staff effect in nameless dance? Also I still want Gastrophetes to have cancel positive since its 2h forced.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 22, 2014, 09:46:52 pm

(Looks like Malroth is finally back. Good. Now we can drag him into this discussion since I'm pretty sure he still thinks Dance is at least still rather weak.)

I'll answer these in reverse order:


1. Nameless Dance becoming Dispelga: No, you totally can easily make Nameless Dance into "Cancel: Positive Status", just like you can make Nameless Song into "Cancel: Negative Status". It's just that if you do that, then you can't make Nameless Dance also add any (negative) statuses at all as well, just like you couldn't make a Nameless Song that cancel negative status have a chance of also adding any positive statuses at all as well. If they could, then I would maybe be for it, but as it stands, I'd say that's not the way to go, if only because it makes Dance even more reactive than it already unfortunately is. This while also stepping on the toes of the newly buffed Dispel Magic that's also still a bit difficult to use and the aforementioned Chaos Blade & Gold Staff, which still aren't seeing much use as it is despite being strong weapons. It would only become even worse if Gastrophetes became Cancel: Positive Status and if we break up Refute like I still think we should.

2. Map-Wide Mimics: Yeah, they're a problem for balance. Welcome to the reason for my kvetching about it so much.

3. Witch Hunt and possible MP-damage-only weapon: I guess the way Witch Hunt "works" would be fine if we just made it so that least it didn't set off Absorb MP. The way would work besides that as far as choice targets go, however, it just seems a bit counterintuitive and still would.

As far an MP-damaging weapon goes, I guess that would have less of an issue in the reaction department...outside of completely useless against units that didn't care about MP; well, that and Dragon Spirit and Counter aside. It would need some type of devastating proc in like Soul Saber's ability to instantly kill in addition to MP damage to be worth creating/using in my opinion, which currently isn't possible I don't think.

4. With Knives: Yeah, changing how reactions react to it here would very useful, a lot more than changing how they react to Witch Hunt in my opinion. Of course, if that happened and With Knives could still be Mimicked, then it would likely just become overpowered (again).

5. Quickening becoming Add 20-25 CT: I'd theoretically be fine with that, at least compared to current Quickening, though I suppose that's damning it through faint praise. It just seems like it would step on the toes of Speed Save a bit (or vice-versa) and it's difficult to tell how well or not the A.I. would actually use it. As I said above (I think), I'd rather not have a skill be dependent on being on the same team as a Mime to actually be useful.

6. Combining Cheer Song & Last Song and Slow Dance & Last Dance: I'll admit that I can't say I like that idea even if I can see why you might want to do that. As I said before, I'm not even sure either chance would even currently be possible also. I'd just rather Cheer Song and Slow Dance be overhauled completely by this point, but perhaps that's just me. If people support your suggestions, then I won't stand against them even if these particular changes are not for me.


Quote from: silentkaster on December 18, 2014, 11:16:20 pm
Damned, sorry I forgot Slow Dance. I think Slow Dance should do the opposite. Add Innocent OR -1 speed OR Add Stop. with its low hit rate, I think that's fine.

I can't give a proper response now as I am on mobile and not even my usual phone. I took my laptop in..defective hard drive apparently. Two to three week wait. Hopefully can do videos again when it is back.

I do have a question. Is Battle Axe proccing correctly? Seems to be more often that 25% but could be wrong.


It's fine. No need to apologize. No need to hurry either. This thread rarely moves with any celerity and that was a long post besides.

As for Battle Axe, it's rather difficult to tell when weapon procs are acting up unless they just don't seem to be going off. It doesn't seem like it, but it could be.

Regardless of whether hit rate is what it's supposed to be or not, Decapitate's level of power/damage still really needs to be nerfed. This even with the improvement to Slasher and the indirect improvement to Giant Axe with Chirijiraden the katana's change.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 23, 2014, 10:21:56 pm
Yeah I'm back,  Here's my take on things

Martial Arts: Cheap MP costs for everything but chakra, still slightly too good and not enough incentive to take off the 
chakra bands yet

Quickening:   as a cheap spammable instant cast skill it definately needs to go but I would not be opposed to it becoming an Interuptable charged skill with a casting time around 8 ticks so that units above 12 speed would no longer be able to cast it.

Bad Luck: It was fairly weak even when it added Dead or Stop,  now i can't even see a use for it at all.

Lifesong:  Slightly weak,  I'd either Bump the formula to Dmg_F(MA*3)  or speed up the charge time to 4 ticks but not both
Angel Song: Loose the MP cost otherwise fine to me
Battle song/Magic song: Currently Much Much stronger than they need to be, CT goes to 10 and accuracy drops to Hit_F(MA+25)
Nameless Song: Change to a faith/Magic attack based formula and throw Haste and Defending on the list of addable statuses so the AI will use it proactively,  Yes this means Nameless song will become a full time job.
Last song: Unsure,  still getting used to the new mechanics

Wizanabus:   Much weaker than where it needs to be,  My Ideal Solution would be to change it to DMG_Fury(PA*3) subject to Protect/Defense up/evasion as well as Overwhelm/Attack-up to simply allow a sufficiently PA stacked unit to attempt to overwhelm a purely Auto Potion based defense
but speeding up the charge time to 4 and making it unable to trigger reactions would also be a workable solution.

Witch Hunt: I actually like its current level of power,  I've seen a PA stacked Witch Hunter keep a Robe of lords Summoner trapped in a Carbuncle Loop which was really nice. I've read a couple of intresting Ideas regarding making this a MP leaching skill which I Like but don't see as 100% necessary. Dropping cost to 0 would work well with this idea and prevent MP absorb triggering.

Disillusion/PolkaPolka Change to Hit_Fury(PA+35) and up the CT and MP costs,  Encourages its use on High Risk High Reward teams rather than simply adding Stall to tanky setups.

Nameless Dance:  Currently too weak to concider using, to give it some actual stopping power  I'd throw Don't Move and Charm on its list of things to add and convert the formula to a Fury/PA based one and run a bunch of tests.

Last Dance: Looks Somewhat Promising but requires more research in its current form

Cheer Song/Slow Dance:  I love these skills, but currently they're simultaneously horribly overpowered and underpowered at the same time, I don't have any ideas on how they could be fixed without ruining them.

Spears:  Elemental properties on the spears with the elemental procs would be nice so Lightning crossing Lancers can be a thing.

Murasame:  Stealth Nerf NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Masamune:  Who can use this? anybody except a Equip heavy blade Ninja with a bag in their off hand and a full speed setup will go slower for equipping this. Maybe upping its WP to 12 would be worth the cost to a dedicated build but 8 WP on a -2 speed weapon?

108Gems:  Was the only caster accessory that prevented Poison, something needs to fill that niche.

Scholars: Can afford to loose a point of MA or 2
Time Mages: Need their Support ability back,  Speed+1 as a movement ability would  also be very nice

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 24, 2014, 01:55:36 am
I agree that poison needs an accessory to block it. I am on mobile, but I did not see an accessory to block it at all. A mantle would probably be a good choice. Maybe one of the staves, also. To my knowledge, only an armor wearing unit can block poison.

Also, idk about nameless causing charm. I would probably vote for berserk over charm. Yeah, it is a permanent status but it is often useful to a team and is often blocked by mages. Silence is a bit underpowered since almost every Mage for the most part blocks it and that may force some decisions.

Masamune is a trap weapon. No unit can truly benefit from this without having quickening. An equip heavy blade thief only breaks even and every other unit needs at least a speed boosting item to get back to even (note: which by just equipping the speed boosting item they'd be as fast as they were and can still benefit from haste.) perhaps -1 speed is fine but 2 just makes Masamune a mostly disposable item. Or perhaps Always: Regen might balance it out.

Scholars I think just need to have Tornado and Quake reworked.

I would comment more but laptop is still out and typing on mobile.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on December 24, 2014, 04:46:21 am
Yeah the CT on Tornado/Quake is pretty borked,   should be at least a 6 with that kind of power behind it.
EDIT:

As for Silence being under powered, I completely Disagree,  its essentially a petrify that works only on mages who don't take an equipment tax, Its very threat serves to bottleneck casters into lower damage, lower HP  builds than they otherwise could be running.  Berserk is even worse since its uncurable outside of Refute and only blocked by 2 accessories. 

I Liked Charm and Don't Move for Nameless dance because they can put enemies in intresting "spend a turn curing myself or loose several turns of work" decisions without irrevocably destroying the enemy team with a single status proc like Berserk/Frog/Death sentence would.  I concidered Innocent and Sleep but decided against them because of how double edged Innocent can be and how badly a PA stacked Dancer could take advantage of random Sleep Procs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on December 24, 2014, 10:08:12 am
Squire, Chemist, Paladin, Monk, Samurai, Priest, and Mediator already have instant answers to poison with either anti status or regen abilities.

Currently Archer, Samurai, and Ninja have a viable way(s) to add poison. Scorpion Tail, and Poison Rod are barely worth mentioning since they're barely(never) used.

Poison is threatening sure, but there aren't enough units using it for there to need an immuniy to it on non-armored units. Just use the new Cure on your casters if you're having problems with poison. That or one of the many other instant abilities commonly used like Masamune.

Charm is an extremely powerful status. Too powerful to add to nameless dance like stop, petrify, sleep, don't act, undead, and any other multi turn status. Mime has to be considered when discussing dance and song balancing.

I thought quake and tornado were too OP in 138 when I first tried arena. At 2 CT without short charge on a base 12 MA unit? Ridiculous. 4-5 CT is a sound nerf. 6 is overkill.


What did FFMaster say he'd balance in 140? I only remember spears. There needs to be more 2Hands spears imo. Jump doesn't benefit from 2H and I like having a choice between Jump Lancer and poke Lancer.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 24, 2014, 12:01:56 pm
Well, in reference to silence, the reason I believe it is underpowered isn't because of the status itself. It is because of the ways to work around silence. Firstly, the only true ways to inflict silence are with Bizen Boat the weapon or Silence Song (yes many other things proc silence but not guaranteed). Second, currently five items negate silence all of which are very good items in their own right. Thirdly, silence can be self healed with echo grass, heal, stigma magic, and can be healed from teammates with refute and Esuna. Finally, depending on secondaries, it may be not so bad (example, A mediator with steal secondary could still use steal heart). Compare this to petrify, which has only two items (since Chakra Band won't be fixed until 1.40 per FFMaster), can't be self healed, and the team must be able to heal petrify (unit can't die and be revived to remove it, petrify must be healed.) berserk is in the middle of these two. Five items negate it but not necessarily all are helpful and really does require an equipment tax. It can only be removed with refute or the unit dying and being revived. However, the AI isn't necessarily the best at using berserk either, as it uses it sometimes on units that might be physical powerhouses. So, I do think silence is underpowered not because of the status itself, but how easy it is to deal with in its current form.

Shintroy, problem is that not all casters are white magic users and can't instantly cure themselves. It creates a worse version of a revival loop since the unit will just die anyway. This isn't saying that's a bad or unfair advantage, it is saying that there are 0 ways to negate poison without equipping armor. Even the poison rod being Immune: Poison might help. With 0 accessories to do it, a caster doesn't even have the option of blocking it without Equip Armor support. It would be nice if it were at least an option, even if it isn't a great one. Adding it back to 108 gems would be fair in my opinion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on December 24, 2014, 12:50:38 pm
Robe of Lords, Gold Armor, Defense Ring, Magic Ring to protect against silence.
Kagesougi, silence song, and the weapon Bizen Boat to actually inflict silence.

Silence as a status effect is neither under or overpowered since it only effects about half the jobs in arena. Even then, these jobs usually equip something to protect against the skill.

Spellcasting can be interrupted by Sinkhole, Throw Stone and other status effects that are objectively worse than silence like charm and berserk too. I'm not seeing any reason to go into adding more ways to add silence when there are already many ways to prevent casters from using spells. I actually don't know why silence was even brought up.
Back when I first started paying arena I had a team called FFXI that was a so called anti caster team. It had a chaos blade grand cross paladin with no protection against darkness, a ninja with mage mashers, a Bizen boat samurai, and a support monk. I didn't know about sinkhole and throw stone, or how the AI worked, but I did eventually realize silence isn't a status effect to rely on to combat against casters.
I'm rambling so ill end  it here. There are more than enough skills for the AI to use in place of silence to not need more ways to add silence. Damage Dealing casters like Scholar and Summoner usually die to poison since they're usually not paired with talk, draw out, or white magic. This is probably why I use Draw out units instead of casters for damage lol. Too afraid of getting stuck in a poison loop and playing it safe with Masamune.

True. I've been too busy making sure all my units lately could survive Bizen boat without wasting more than one turn to realize there was no poison immune accessory.

I'd vote on Defense Ring getting a poison immunity and losing the sleep or silence immunity. This would make the ring balanced more than it is now because it would make non armored units extremely weak to charm.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 24, 2014, 01:18:02 pm
(IIRC, FFMaster said that he would be chiefly balancing Spears and, for some reason, Swords in 140/1.40. Presumably part of balancing Spears means finally giving Lancers access to Robes back, but I've no idea.

I think he might have mentioned off-hand that Scholar was finally getting a nerf stat-wise too. Shrug.)

Hmmm...interesting suggestions Malroth, even if I'll admit that I find quite a few of them "out there".

That said, I suppose making Witch Hunt cost 0 MP makes the most "sense" and is the easiest solution as to not having Absorb MP screw it over horribly. If Angel Song "needs" to become 0 MP as an exercise in parity-based balance, then so it be. I'd rather that happen even though I think Angel Song is easily the third best Song already just so that Witch Hunt doesn't continue to shoot itself in the foot so horribly.

Of course, then it starts to be arguable that Carbuncle/Carbunkle "should" be 0 MP as well given that every other source of MP restoration, including Chakra, would now cost 0 MP. Too bad this would kind of defeat the purpose of MP damage in the first place, at least when every source of MP damage save for Bizen Boat does relatively low MP damage, even Magic Ruin.

Shrug. 0 MP Witch Hunt is still the best solution; I'm just not sure if 0 MP Angel Song is necessary.

As for everything else....


Quote from: Malroth on December 23, 2014, 10:21:56 pm
Yeah I'm back,  Here's my take on things

*snip*


I'll refrain from commenting on any of the Songs & Dances aside from the above Witch Hunt & Angel Song and then Nameless Dance. I still need to think on them despite the possible "solutions" I gave earlier.

I'll also refrain from commenting on Scholars and 108 Gems given that respectively I did so already and will be doing so when responding to silentkaster & Shintroy:

Martial Arts...?: I'm going to assume you mean "Punch Arts" even as much sense as it would make for "Martial Arts" to be the skill-set name, though that's not FFMaster's fault or anything obviously. I don't think that Revive and probably Secret Fist need an MP cost and I actually think that Chakra needs an MP cost itself given it restores both HP & MP, even on the Undead, and will always hit the user, making it difficult to run out of MP anyway. As far as your other point goes, yeah, there's still very little reason to anything Headband but Chakra Band, which is saying a lot when Chakra Band is currently missing its Petrify immunity.

Bad Luck: Yeah, Bad Luck/Tough Luck is even worse now than it was before than was, which is saying...a lot. It's definitely even more toothless than the current form of Nameless Dance, which is also saying a lot. I can sort of see what FFMaster was aiming for, but, among other things, I really, really don't see how this is 4 CT when Quake, Tornado and bunch of other heavy damage spells are naturally faster and when Bad Luck is still so unreliable. That's also vulnerable to both Counter Magic and Counter Flood is also just slap in the face; at most I think it should be vulnerable to Counter Magic. I still need to think of a solution now that Oil has changed though.

Spears: I'm pretty sure that we're already getting spears that are as elemental as their breaths beyond just Holy Spear/Holy Lance/Longinus in 1.40/140, so wish granted. I'd like to think they'd be better than the current Holy Spear, though, after they become elemental since the current Holy Spear is still kind of...meh, even with the shield changes, at least as far as the Holy Breath proc goes.

Murasame...?: I'm going to assume you're talking about Muramasa the katana since neither Murasame has changed at all. Yeah, the current version of Muramasa the katana is now flat-out inferior to Kiyomori the katana when it was perfectly fine before while Ninja and Thief got a new, unnecessary toy to play with it. I personally think they should go back, but my kvetching about all that can wait for another, Katana-and-Samurai-based post.

Masamune the katana: Paladins can use this pretty well and way better than Samurai can since Paladins can innately equip Zephyr Shield and thus can get back the two points of Speed by wearing just Sprint Shoes. This as opposed to being forced to wear both Genji Armor and Sprint Shoes like Samurai...who already have access to a (still at slightly overpowered) source of instant, constant Haste anyway. Other than that...yeah, it's a trap weapon between everything silentkaster said, the fact that no other class besides the above two can innately equip Katana anyway and the fact that you need to also use Immune: Slow equipment with it; otherwise you get destroyed by Slow between the -2 Speed and the fact the Always: Haste prevents you from re-adding Haste since you still, technically, have it despite it being canceled. Fun. Ironically, of the three new Katanas, this is only one I somewhat like even if I'm still not sure if it's actually worth in its current form or even if it would be worth it with a probably necessary WP boost.

Time Mage getting a Support back: Agreed. I'm fine with Speed +1 going to Ninja if it exists at all though, if only because Float so rarely gets used as it is.

Nameless Dance: I guess even just giving Nameless Dance Don't Move over Silence would be a vast improvement even if I'd rather just change Slow Dance into "Random: Slow or Don't Move" for reasons I already specified. Giving Nameless Dance the ability to add Charm, however, would only end in (angry) tears and be worse than allowing it to cause Don't Act in my opinion. This even if, yes, Charm is oddly probably the  least worst option immediately after Don't Act oddly enough, if only because Berserk is still infinite. Sleep might have been a better option, especially given that Sleep would block subsequent Nameless Dances (or Dances in general) I think...if it wasn't for the fact that Sleep's 60 CT currently makes it literally a fate worse than Death. This even before the fact that Dancer is the second strongest physical class in the game (going by pure PA).

Tornado & Quake: 6 CT seems a bit prohibitive given that the map-wide Lores are already that slow, but, yeah, I've basically been nagging about this for the past couple of years because their immense power versus their immense speed always seemed ridiculous, even before Scholar's Wizard+ stats. 5 CT seems like the best between becoming the same speed as both Bio 3 and the current form of Titan, which is way outclassed by Quake currently for various reasons that aren't entirely Quake's fault.



Quote from: silentkaster on December 24, 2014, 01:55:36 am
I agree that poison needs an accessory to block it. I am on mobile, but I did not see an accessory to block it at all. A mantle would probably be a good choice. Maybe one of the staves, also. To my knowledge, only an armor wearing unit can block poison.

*snip*



...Oh gods, you're right. No accessory blocks Poison anymore. I'm not sure how I failed to notice this. It's probably because I so rarely used 108 Gems even when it was "over-buffed" due to it not blocking Silence and perhaps due to the new instant Cure being made specifically to prevent dying from Poison for mages (with White Magic); it's probably just me being inattentive like usual as well. Yeah, currently the only units that can block Poison at all are the ones that have access to Heavy Armor.

As for Masamune the katana, I somewhat agree, even if I think that Masamune the ability should still see something of a nerf...somehow. I don't think Always: Regen would break anything, though I'm not sure it would really help either. A WP boost would most likely help though.


Quote from: Shintroy on December 24, 2014, 10:08:12 am
Squire, Chemist, Paladin, Monk, Samurai, Priest, and Mediator already have instant answers to poison with either anti status or regen abilities. *snip*


Meh. Just because a bunch of classes cancel Poison doesn't mean there shouldn't be an accessory that can block it, especially when the previous form of 108 Gems wasn't exactly overpowered anyway. I'd also (still) argue that Masamune the ability could afford to lose Regen anyway and if we're worried about too many things  curing Poison for some reason even after that, then Heal could possibly lose the ability to cancel Poison too, though seems unnecessary.

As for that Poison-weapon-adding issue, that has less to do with a lot of things adding Poison and more do with both of those weapons primarily being stuck on squishy mages. If you gave Paladin the ability to use Flails, then Scorpion Tail would likely see a decent amount more use. Not that Scorpion Tail wasn't already seeing a decent amount of use last version, but that's fallen by the wayside between the (necessary) nerf to Hidden Knife and the (unnecessary) huge buff that Spell Edge got by stealing from Muramasa the katana. Now the Ninja flavor of the month/version is basically Spell Edge + Short Edge, which doesn't exactly leave much room for diversity.

Meanwhile, the only class that can use Poison Rod that isn't squishy or a mage is Squire, who can definitely use it well, but literally has the most equipment choice of any class. So between Poison Rod having to compete with a bunch of other (better) weapons, including the fact that Squire can also equip Poison Bow, and there still being relatively little incentive to use Equip Magegear, Poison Rod not being used isn't surprising.

Otherwise, agreed with everything else.


I don't really have anything to say about the last two posts and not just because they were apparently created while I was typing this out. I will say, however, that I think giving Immune: Poison to Defense Ring is instead of it having Immune: Sleep would be a good idea, though only if Sleep's CT gets the nerf it needs. Otherwise, losing Immune: Silence for Immune: Poison seems ideal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 24, 2014, 03:19:14 pm
Shintroy, Aegis Shield also blocks silence (in addition to adding a point of MA and a boat load of magic evade. Even a small physical evade as a bonus.)  Also, Wizards and  Dancers have worthwhile poison adding abilities.

If you want a clear example of how badly a Mage can be affected by poison, Otabo recorded a video of a 1.38 team. It was my team Taboo Topics vs. a Team by Reinoe I believe. His team, particularly Round 3, was stuck in a huge sandbag loop due to poison being inflicted by wiznaibus even though two of my units were dead and two of mine were in critical (granted they were all immortal but still a good example.)

But I think the bags which need an overhaul anyway (particularly C Bag) could be used to block a few statuses instead.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on December 26, 2014, 09:30:05 am
My favorite Shield in the history of FF is the Aegis Shield, and I completely overlooked it preventing silence (again). Shame on me.

I'm well aware of how crippling poison is for casters silentkaster. It's actually one of the main reasons I haven't made a pure offensive caster team. I just didn't notice we lost a poison immune accessory from 138 to 139. It sucks because I'd like to make a black mage, summoner, or scholar unit and not have to pair them up with basic skill or white magic. (I'll edit this post after I go watchyour match.)

I recommended defense ring in my previous post for getting an immunity to poison at the cost of losing one of its current immunities. What else could get a poison immunity without being OP? 108 makes sense for me since its an element mastery weapon. Poison is considered an element or type of damage in some final fantasy games so it makes sense for 108 to get poison immunity back. Doesn't seem OP either. We would be able to use Light Robe and P Bag again without worrying too much about Kiyomori and Hawk's Eye too much.

Masamune - 10 WP, -2 SP, Always Haste

Changed to either
Masamune - 11 WP, +1 PA
or
Masamune - 9-11 WP, 2 Range

The +PA Katana would fit in well with the current katanas without overshadowing almost any either. With the current weapon formula of katana, and innate two hands it wouldn't be overpowered in the slightest. Ninja Knife and Lionheart would also still be better choices for jobs that equip them by default. Ninja Knife is superior to dual wield, and lionheart is superior to 2 Hand. PA+ Masamune wouuld either be a novelty weapon for other classes or a go to weapon for Samurai. A solid southern cross weapon for samurai.

Jot5 Sephiroth's Masamune. Wouldn't take away from Equip Polearm Samurai because of it not adding speed or holy element. The WP would have to be just enough to compete with 2Hand javelin with Attack UP so it doesn't take away from the already neglected spears. Pole Samurai outclass this weapon too. A lot to think about with a 2 range katana. Maybe 5-10 more W-EV than other katana.

-

I think bags are misunderstood and sometimes overlooked. (i think I already pointed this out, but ill go again.)
-Bags make great alternate weapons for units you don't want to use melee attacks. Using a P or C bag over a Rune Blade, Lionheart, Wiz Rod/Staff, ect. isn't done enough. For 139, on units other tHan monks, H Bag is the only bag players use over alternate speed adding weapons.
- Bags are great for anti charm and sleep. Bags don't hit hard, and for high MA or PA units thst don't melee, its a plus.
-All Classes can use them. This is a huge plus for players making unorthodox units. White Mage Ninjas could use C Bag. Female Samurai are known to use C Bag over Kiyomori since its far less likely to be used to anti sandbag a critical unit. AI with a kiyo equipped sometimes go for a non-100% hit over their overkill draw out.

I don't have other points to make about bags, but I think that's enough for bags to be left alone. P Bag could use some immunities though. It's currently not worth using on almost anything other than a high health, maybe armored, support unit. Not sure what status effects it could get in addition to poison without making it OP. Darkness seems fine since it helps out Kiyomori users, and a blinded p bag user not being a threat to begin with.

mobile makes these hard to read since formatting posts is too risky.
almost deleted my entire team.submission post several times because the edit post button is so close to remove post.

How much addition damage does "strengthen" element give? Weakness too.

That match was a great reminder to how much better 139 is over 138.
I'm in agreement with needing a poison immunity P bag or accessory, but this match doesn't really show how bad poison affects mages, at least not now if they had a poison immune accessory.

If 139 Cure had been in the picture, Reinoe's team would've been able to close out the match easier P Blade and cheer song aside. Man that match just refreshed my appreciation of 139 changes.


Good stuff though. that was an entertaining match. I definitely still get salty over some 138 builds. lol.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on December 30, 2014, 10:17:43 pm
(I agree about 108 Gems, though I'll note my thoughts on it below along with everything else 1.39/139 has done.

For the record, Strengthen is still "only" a 125% boost and Weak is still a 200% boost as far as I know, the latter being why Oil was making Air Knife so horribly broken in 1.38/138.)

Ugh. I can't believe that it's almost 2015. How disgusting.

As such, I might as well do this now before I either forget or my Internet goes off. "This" being my overly long review of the massive changes that 1.39/139 brought to Arena. I'm putting this in spoilers for a reason. For the record, all of the (implicit) "you"s are technically addressed to FFMaster, but it's not like I expect him to have time to read this (any soon).


1. Oil no Longer Adds Elemental Weakness: This is overall mostly a good thing as it no longer makes Oil basically an instant-death status while not undermining its ability to get past Absorption, Nullification or Halving of non-Holy, non-Dark elements. Unfortunately, while the weakening of Oil was merited, this same nerf makes Nameless Dance and especially the new Bad Luck rather toothless. I'll talk more on the latter later; the former has basically  already been explained with the talk about Dance in the past page.

2. More Item Attribute Space: This is always good. It's a shame that we didn't get as much Item Attribute space as we got Inflict Status space, though I suppose I should just be grateful that we didn't end up with as little Inflict Status space as we did Item Attribute space. Regardless, even with the noted risks for the version of extend hack, good job with getting it working at all.

3. Changes to the Previously Two-Handed Knives: I was a bit surprised to see that you made these no longer usable with Two Hands even with all the BS that was Cursed Ring Air Knife Thieves. Mind you, I was pleasantly surprised given that I figured these would remain Two Hands since you could have potentially balanced things, however precariously, while keeping it, at least in theory. Well, so long as Air Knife lost its random, accidental Sleep proc, which it's currently kept. I'm still not quite sure about that, in part due to the new Kaiser Shield, but meh, it's probably fine since it lost Two Hands.

4. Hidden Knife Being Weakened: "Finally" is all I can say if we're going to be stuck with an auto-Concentrate weapon that's innate to a class with Innate: Two Swords that made it the fastest class in the game. No way should it have had evasion, much less have boosted Speed. Thank you. (Now if only Kagesougi lost Don't Act and took more MP....)

5. Phoenix Blade v2.0: While this new Phoenix Blade is probably at least slightly overpowered--too much evasion, for one--and we didn't really need a better, slightly stronger version of the already great Icebrand, that this is not the old Always: Reraise Phoenix Blade is already the best news possible. Thank you for changing that.

6. Tactician's Blade W-EV Increased to 20: Good to see this weapon get a boost since it was already decent before, but it really did need more evasion if you were having units essentially rush in with it.

7. Parry Edge's Conversion into Mystic Blade: Of course, Parry Edge dying helped enable the above and it just goes to show how mediocre at best Parry Edge was even before noticing how it was also holding back other things like the above and also arguably Slasher. Mystic Blade, for the most part, seems like a decent enough weapon. I'm just not sure if it can out-do Lionheart or Rune Blade though, even on Geomancer; it doesn't seem it will be able to, to be honest, which is a shame. I guess this is part of why you said you were (re-re-re-)balancing Swords in 1.40 though, so....

8. Coral Sword: Although it's yet another weapon that no one has really used currently, it's good to at least see that it's previously nigh-useless proc is no longer holding it back. Now it actually has some power.

9. Buffs to Knight Swords as a Whole: I'm glad to see these buffed despite Paladin easily being one of the better, more used classes already and also still not really thinking that Excalibur needed a buff. Then again, it's difficult to tell given I've been the only person to use Excalibur (or Chaos Blade) and my one team that uses them both got curb-stomped in a horrible match-up where it didn't get to do anything, so shrug. As it is, the changes to Defender, Save the Queen and Ragnarok seem both balanced and for the better, so that's what important since those are the Knight Swords people are actually using.

10. Slasher v2.0: Nice to see Slasher is finally worth using even if Battle Axe's proc is still laughably broken. As laughable as people found the Two Swords idea that someone randomly suggested, I figured it would work and it looks like it has, so that's good.

11. Rainbow Staff got +2 WP and Immune: Oil: Positive changes all around, though it arguably steps on Gold Staff a bit by being more powerful than it, especially when mages that use Rainbow Staff will most likely use it either for the Neutral: All Elements or Immune: Oil aspects rather than its WP. Mind you, I don't think that Gold Staff needs the most WP of Staves; it probably shouldn't have that, really, given its proc is 100%.

Shrug. All I know is that it still says Rainbow Staff is All Elements in the Master Guide even though it isn't and hasn't been for over a year. Please change that in 1.40/140.

12. Stone Gun and the Spellguns are now 4 Range, Forced Two Hands: Thank you for this. It's rather telling that the Spellguns, despite having the same level of power, are actually balanced now that their range got reduced by a third and users don't get a free buff from Shields (named Kaiser Plate) on top of all that power. Black Magic is actually currently kind of useful now and I can make mages that don't automatically need Projectile Guard just to not die. Hurray. I'm not entirely sure Stone Gun needed the exact same restrictions, but I can see why you would do that, so meh.

13. Silencer got +2 WP: In theory, this is a buff. In practice, no one is using it still unfortunately. Only reason I'm not putting it under "The Middling" with all the other buffed yet ignored weapons is because there's really not anything more you could do to improve this before it became unreasonably overpowered. Even changing it to 100% Add: Silence won't really do much due to 99% of mages blocking Silence.

14. RLamia Harp got +2 MA in Exchange for Kosing 33% Add: Stop: I approve of this since now it means RLamia Harp and Madlemgen actually differ, which is good. Now if only RLamia Harp got its name fixed from vanilla's Engrish like happened with Oberlisk.... *eye twitch*

15. Sticks' Formula Changed to Max[PA/MA]*WP: An excellent change. Pity you haven't made this particular hack public as of yet. *cough*

16. Shields' Changes: While Kaiser Plate's particular changes still make me scratch my head since I'm still not sure about why that particular elemental combination--the Dark part is throwing me--was chosen, I generally agree that these are likely for the better. This even if Platina Shield making Demi 2 instant-death is hilarious. At the very least, the changes to Diamond Shield and Platina Shield help give Small Mantle and Vanish Mantle more worth than they previously had.

17. Helms' Changes: The change to Mythril Helm is good--it's just a shame that mages can't equip Helms normally. The change to Cross Helm and Grand Helm are pretty great, even if no one (else) is really using the latter (yet). The Platina Helm change might have gotten a somewhat lukewarm reception despite no longer overlapping with Mythril Helm if it wasn't for the introduction of Stall and the over-buffing of Stop; we'll talk about those two skills later though. (Also thank you for fixing that "Immunel" typo Mythril Helm had in the Master Guide. It was maddening to me.)

18. Hats' Changes: I agree with all of these as well, especially the nerfs to Golden Hairpin, Flash Hat and Thief Hat. The latter two were especially obnoxious in how overpowered they were and how much they both gave mages the finger oh so casually while also powering up Cursed Ring, which really didn't need the help.

19. Heavy Armor's Changes: I generally agree with the changes to both Genji Armor and Maximillian, even if no one (else) has been using the latter (yet).

20. Clothes' Changes: I generally agree with the slight buffs to all of these as well.

21. Silk Robe's MP Increased to 40: Hunh. I had forgotten this gave only 25 MP, partly because it's so rarely used. I was going to say that I'm more conflicted about this given that it thus has the same MP as the also rarely used Linen Robe and slightly less rarely used Wizard Robe, but then I was reminded that Linen Robe already has almost as much HP as Silk Robe in addition to +1 MA, so this is probably a good thing. Probably.

22. Accessories' Changes sans 108 Gems: These are all very much for the better, especially the necessary weakening of Cursed Ring, which basically was literally on half of all teams in Arena 1.38 after a certain point. So glad that's begun to taper off at least somewhat with this much need change. While Talk Skill is actually stronger than it was before, the  change and overall weakening of Defense Ring rather was needed, if only to enable Water to an element actually worth using for offense.

23. Squire's Changes: I agree with all of these. It's nice to see that Yell and Wish no longer suck and to be able to know that Alacrity Focus is actually going off. Now if only we could make Ultima worth using again....

24. Chemist's Changes: I agree with the slight buff to X-Potion and the slight nerf to Auto-Potion. Despite being 10 HP in different directions, they've both changed quite a bit.

25. Paladin's Reraise Weakened: I am so glad this is no longer instant even if it's still really fast. Thank you for that.

26. Archer's Changes: I agree with these for the most part, especially the more "normalized" formula that Cover Fire has now. The only thing I don't agree with is Hawk's Eye being CT 1 now even with the weakening of Oil and the increase to 12 MP. Then again, I'm not sure it actually is 1 CT since it's still listed as 3 CT in the Master Guide....

27. Monk's Changes: I agree with these and am glad that we didn't go with Raven's changes, at least when it came to switching around elemental aspects, despite my initial agreement with them.

28. Priest's Changes: I agree with these, though Regen could honestly probably go down to 50 JP since no  one's really using it still. Wall being instant is a lot less problematic than I figured it might be and it's nice to see people actually using it now.

29. Wizard's Changes: See above, though replace "Regen" with "Poison" if we insist on Priest and Wizard keeping those respective spells instead of giving them to Time Mage or something. Flare could also maybe stand to become 6 CT, if only because Holy is still kind of quick for its power, relatively speaking.

30. Demi's AoE Increased to 2, X Reduced to 80: This is one of only two changes to Time Mage I can find myself whole-heartedly liking, which is ironic given how much I kvetched about Time Mage needing improvement. Careful what you wish for I suppose.

31. Critical Quick JP Reduced to 200: Good to see this no longer be so expensive. The same thing probably needs to happen to Chrono Trigger given how many more reliable sources of Haste there are and given how even the balanced version of Speed Save is basically a (much) better version of it.

32. Summoner's Changes: While I'm not sure that Moogle needed to be increased to 3, I generally agree with these changes.

33. Mediator's Changes: Aside from the facts that I think I've helped you inadvertedly helped you create a monster by suggesting Stall, that I think Refute would still be better off if it was split in half and that Mimic Daravon & Sleep the status likely need a nerf, these changes are good. Even if no one is using Move -1, it definitely fits on Mediator way better than it did on Paladin.

34. Counter Flood's JP Reduced to 200: I would put this under "The Middling" if it wasn't for the fact Counter Flood does tend to usually do relatively abysmal damage, so it not costing 250 JP is ultimately a good thing.

35. Ignore Height's JP Reduced to 150: Given it's basically an inferior version of Fly and Teleport in most instances, it's good to see this get its cost halved. Jump +2 could maybe reduced to 50 JP from 100 JP, but I'm not sure that's actually necessary since Jump +2 will occasionally give units some additional horizontal movement unlike Ignore Height. (It would be really nice if Lancers got Robes back in 1.40/140 though. Hint hint.)

36. Bard & Dancer's Changes: Grouping these together since you kind of have to talk about Bard and Dancer together. People are finally using Last Song, Last Dance and Faith Up, so these changes are obviously for the better. Of course given the Song & Dance talk I brought up that we're still having, Last Song and arguably Last Dance might still be better off being buffed even more (so long as Last Dance can't be Mimicked since Last Song effectively can't be Mimicked anyway). Shrug. Baby (dance) steps.



1. Mage Masher's Proc Rate Reduced to 25%: Not really sure why Mage Masher's proc got reduced even with as good as Bizen Boat the ability can be given most of the classes with access to Knives have piss-poor MA. Mage Masher just probably needs to change completely really given it's always been the worst Knife. Even if something has to be, it's easily the worst Knife by far. Still not exactly huge concern or even issue, but it's definitely there.

2. Spell Edge's Stealing Muramasa's Everything: I try not to explicitly question your decisions for things despite and given how much I nag you and generally kvetch about various (every)things, especially since you're generally doing all this stuff alone and free of charge. That said, as insolent as it seems, I really do have to question what made you think it would be a good idea giving two of the fastest classes, who already generally hit harder than they "should", innate access to a weapon that 100% adds Faith, especially when one of those classes already had innate access to an auto-Concentrate weapon and Two Swords. I just...what.

Please, please switch these back. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with Short Edge + Spell Edge until the end of days, especially since nothing really has Immune: Faith (or Immune: Innocent) that's readily available.

3. Katana changes: I'll be blunt here as well, partly because it's directly related to the above: I don't like any of these changes, especially since Katana already suck(ed) for male Samurai, who generally are already middling at best as it is. It was a bit of damning faint praise when I said that I like the change to Masamune the katana better since that katana is still a kind of bad, trap-like weapon in its current state that's best used by Paladins anyway. At the very least it needs something else, like Immune: Slow or Always: Regen or something to make up for the severe speed drop that necessitates either defending against Slow or becoming auto-useless when you're inevitably hit by Slow (2).

As for the other two, Chirijiraden the katana might not be so bad if it was Always: Berserk, though I'm not sure if that would "break" it or not admittedly. This even if that would still mean that the best thing male Samurai could do is be suicidal. As it is now, despite the damage potential behind it, the only thing that's good about it to me really is that gives the was-always-good Giant Axe more room to shine now that Chirijiraden isn't essentially a non-elemental version of it (which I was fine with).

The new Muramasa just sucks though. I can totally see what you were going for, but between female Samurai not really ever physically attacking, male Samurai having weaker MA & MP, Samurai generally not having much MP in general, the Spell Absorb being "only" a 50% chance, Kiyomori the katana still having that +2 MA and Muramasa's old proc being overpowered as hell on Spell Edge due to Thief and Ninja...yeah. This needs to change back please.

4. Wizard Staff got +1 WP: Hunh. Didn't really notice this until now, partly because of no one really using Wizard Staff anymore due to how good Healing Staff is now. Despite that, I'm putting this under "The Bad" because I still think Wizard Staff could change into something more useful than a carbon copy of Wizard Rod that's it now basically a better version of for some reason. It doesn't help that Wizard Staff is among the Staves that out-damage Gold Staff. Meh. I still think this would be fine as the Dark mirror to White Staff, but that may just be me.

5. Mythril Bow's Conversion into Atheist Bow: I'm not exactly sad to see Mythril Bow leave, even if it seems like it became a part of all the elemental bows sans Silver Bow, but Atheist Bow seems even worse...in theory. This if only because Innocent does what Silence can't: it actually cripple mages. Granted, Wizards, Priests, Time Mages and Summoner can still do something if they get hit with Innocent, but between Innocent obviating most of their options while still leaving them open, meaning the A.I. will still try to use them, unlike Silence and Innocent not being blocked by anything that mages can actually wear...yeah. Granted, this hasn't been nearly as problematic as I was expecting due to you having the foresight to make this have the least range of any Longbow. I just think that, as I was saying a year ago, at the very least that Immune: Innocent (still) needs to exist on at least one accessory, especially if this stays around.

6. 108 Gems Lost All Its Immunities: Given this was nowhere near as powerful as the two other accessories to get nerfed--Defense Ring and Cursed Ring--going into 1.39, I really don't see why this lost its immunities. Given Oil was weakened, I could see it losing that, sure. Similarly, I could even see it losing Frog just because Chantange already has a lot of competition with Angel Ring currently being the only accessory Grand Cross users can wear so as to avoid inflicting Blind on themselves. That and Defense Ring still blocking Sleep, which Defense Ring needs to do, especially if Sleep status is still so unfair. Losing both Poison and Undead as well seems a bit...much though, especially since the loss of the former means that now no accessory has Immune: Poison. Even with the change to Cure, that's rather...bad, especially since 108 Gems is one of the more mage-friendly accessories.

I think the best solution would be to give 108 Gems back Immune: Poison & Immune: Undead as well as to give it Immune: Faith & Immune: Innocent. That seems like it would kill two birds with one stone, though that may just be me.

7. Haste & Slow the spells' Changes vs. Haste 2 & Slow 2's Changes (or Lack Thereof): While the slight increase to Haste and Slow's accuracy--gods, their X's used to be 60?--is appreciated as well as the general reduction in JP costs for Time Mage overall, it really isn't enough to stop Haste and Slow from being obviated by Haste 2 and Slow 2 respectively. This especially since Slow 2 is still rather...overly accurate. Honestly, the "best" solution to this is probably just to switch the Level 1 and Level 2 spells' accuracies with each other, even if the Level 2 spells might then need their Xs pushed to 75. Shrug.

8. Stop the spell's Changes: I still don't understand why this was so heavily buffed when it wasn't that weak in the first place. It was just over-expensive JP-wise. If it remains as accurate as it is now (and it really does seem higher than X = 70), then it probably needs to slowed down to CT 5 given how overly powerful Short Charge + Stop is seeming. Shrug.

9. Bad Luck's Changes: Time for more bluntness: This is somehow even worse than it already was now and it was already pretty bad. At least before it could be a serious threat sometimes with its ability to maybe instantly kill or Stop or Slow despite its slow CT and frankly exorbitant MP cost (for the class it's in and its nonexistent range). Now it doesn't even have that save for Stop, which is done way better and more reliably by Stop the spell and the new Stall, and Oil got weakened, which is added more reliably by Spell Edge now. Even if Oil's weakening affected Nameless Dance too, Oil's weakening affected Bad Luck more even more than Nameless Dance since at least Nameless Dance a) hits all enemy units, b) can be done from anywhere on the map, c) doesn't trigger Reactions and d) costs less MP.

Steal already had and still has so few abilities worth using as it is and all of the ones it has currently are only worth using because they're frankly either borderline overpowered (Steal Heart, Steal Accessory), which is fine, or actually overpowered (Quickening, Spellbreaker), which...isn't. Everything else is much pretty trash and Bad Luck is now king of that junk pile, even over Magic Ruin.

The "original" suggested plans for 1.39 were making it have a chance of adding multiple statuses via Separate rather than the (unclear) Random Add it currently has and making the statuses that it caused choose from among Blind, Silence, Stop, Immobilize (Don't Move), Disable (Don't Act) and Doom. This while also no longer being countered by Counter Flood since it would already still have enough potential issues with its 1 range, CT 3 and MP 6. Well all that and possibly changing its name to Tough Luck. I'd like to think that would still work.

At the very least, it would be a much better alternative than the current Bad Luck, which is completely obviated by Stop the spell, Stall and various weapons including the newly changing Spell Edge when it comes to adding one probably not crippling status after waiting longer than literally half of the damaging spells that exist. Pleasefix Bad Luck/Tough Luck in 1.40/140.

10. Quickening's General Continued Existence: I've kvetched about Quickening enough that I really don't--well, shouldn't--have to say anything else here outside of again saying that increasing the JP to 300 doesn't change much and it will forever be broken, at least if it remaining instant; I've already stated that I doubt giving it CT would work either, though it would at least be better. Really, Quickening was weakened far more by Cursed Ring's nerf, which only weakened it a tad, than it was by the JP cost increase. It's basically still obnoxiously overpowered and undermines a bunch of things, including Phoenix Blade's only current drawback. So...yeah. Something has got to give otherwise Steal might as well only have four active abilities.

11. Scholar's Lack of Changes: I'll break my "vow" to not talk specifically focus on something that didn't change, but given that both Quake and Tornado were already thought by many to be problematic...yeah. I feel bad for harping on this particular point since I think you did say already that you were planning on making some adjustments to Scholar in 1.40/140, but yeah.... Please change at least those two things. (I also think, beyond the Wizard+ stats issue, that Bio 2 really shouldn't be able to potentially add AoE Frog.)



1. Dual Cutters got +1 WP: I'm still not really sure this is necessary, but thus far it doesn't seem to be breaking anything or even making much of an impact. Shrug.

2. Short Edge got 100% Add: Oil: I'm...not sure how I feel about this either still, even with Oil itself being weakened. I'd probably fine with it if it wasn't for the change to Spell Edge, honestly.

3. Ninja Edge got Minor Buffs While Losing 1 WP: I'm not sure losing 1 WP was really merited given  Ninja Knife's still superior strength, Kagesougi's ability to inflict Don't Move (among other things) and the 50% chance of Don't Move both not being guaranteed & on a close-range squishy unit. It's rather difficult to tell how much the boost to W-EV and its proc even help given that no one is using it because the current go-to equipment for Ninja is either Short Edge + Spell Edge or some (Repel) Knife + Hidden Knife if Ninjato are being used at all.

4. Shieldrender's WP Reduced to 7: It's difficult to tell whether this was "merited" or not given that it's one of those (many) weapons no one is using for various reasons. I still wouldn't be surprised if this and Bow Gun have to be completely changed ultimately despite finally knowing that they're both technically working.

5. Lionheart's W-EV Increased to 10: For the record, I'd place this under "The Bad" if anyone was really using this since I don't agree with it. As it is, I haven't seen enough evidence one way or the other given I think only a couple of people have used it oddly. Might just be due to how powerful Phoenix Blade v2.0 is though. Well that and other factors like how Dancers have all but disappeared in Arena going into 1.39/139 when they were generally the primary users of this sword.

6. Thunder Rod & Ice Rod got +1 WP: Hard to tell how significant a change this is between Rod users usually being squishy, non-melee units and no one really using these anyway. Shrug.

7. White Staff got +1 WP and Holy Element: See above except replace "Rod users" with "Staff users" and "these" with "this".

8. Healing Staff got +1 Speed: This is among the numerous things that I'm not sure about how to ultimately feel still. I kind of think it may be doing too much currently between the boost to Speed, having so much WP, making it so that mages generally won't stupidly melee a unit they shouldn't (often at the worst possible time) and boosting both Dia and Holy. It may just be the weird, unresolved Speed situation of both Time Mage and Priest though along with Holy still being a little too fast for its power, especially comparative to Flare. Regardless, to me, right now the 1.39 Healing Staff feels like the new version of Golden Hairpin really.

9. Gold Staff's W-EV Increased to 20: As I figured, this buff isn't "enough" unfortunately, as evidenced by people trying to use Healing Staff or Rainbow Staff as the melee Staves of the group. I think this just needs +1 Move so that Staff user can just get in range to actually hit with the Staff. Shrug.

10. Longbow Changes sans Atheist Bow: I've not come to a conclusion about these yet either despite people generally using all of these save for Ultimus Bow and despite getting my ass kicked by them and despite somewhat agreeing that Silver Bow, Ice Bow, Lightning Bow and Windslash Bow might be slightly over-buffed. Shrug.

11. Choice Band v2.0: This is an interesting change. It's a damn shame that it's still not really worth using compared to Chakra Band still blocking too many serious negative statuses, even with Chakra Band not blocking Petrify as it apparently still should. This could probably stand to be Immune: Slow at least, at least given Slow 2. Shrug.

12. Equip Armor & Equip Heavy Blade got Lower JP Costs: Honestly hadn't noticed these until now despite Equip Armor's JP drop being by a whole 100 JP. Hunh. Still difficult to tell whether it's "enough" despite at least one person actually using Equip Armor given no one has ever really used Equip Clothing as of yet and that would be the "best" thing to compare this one to, even with Equip Clothing's continued lack of access to "Headbands". Shrug.

As for Equip Heavy Blade, it could probably stand to get access to Flails though and I'm not just saying that because I think Flails would "work" on Paladins, even if one of them should maybe change. That's for later though.

13. Comet and Sinkhole's Buffs: I'm still not really sure either of these were "needed" per say, especially the former in light of the weakening of Auto Potion. Shrug. I'm not exactly up in arms about them though.

14. Speed Ruin's X Increased to 100: I'd put this under "The Good"...if Quickening's existence didn't still basically completely obviate it, buffed or not. It's at least the most usable Ruin currently, but that's really not saying much.

15. Samurai's Changes: The change to Asura's damage would be good...if male Samurai were worth using otherwise and if they could come close to getting the most damage about of it, but...they aren't and they can't respectively. I have suggestions about these that can wait until another, Samurai-focused post though that will likely be coming soon anyway.

16. Ninja's Changes: It's nice to see Tsumazuku working now that the A.I. knows to actually use it. It's just a shame that it's both not very good at what it's supposed to do and inferior to both the-still-overpowered Kagesougi and even just regularly attacking with Ninja. Maybe if there's some way to at least make sure that Reraise is canceled even upon a lethal hit--would changing the Order work?--I could see if being useful enough to stay around, but if not....

As for Houkouton's change, it's difficult to tell how much the vastly different formula has done for it given that no one is using it still.

17. Mime's Vast Overhaul: For the most part, I do think this would qualify as "The Good" even with the ever-increasing issues that seem to be cropping up with them on top of that fact that no one on FFH--myself included--still has looked into why Mimes aren't 100% Miming things despite that being the case since vanilla. The only reasons I'm putting this here are because I think Mime's stats were overly nerfed out of a well-intentioned abundance of caution, making a lot of RSMs flat-out worthless on them and making them...really awkward to put on most teams beyond the usual Song, Dance or Lore spam, which is just more of the same. On top of that, I still think it would likely be ultimately better to just replace them with Blue Mage if possible, especially if you're still ultimately planning to try to put monsters into Arena since Blue Mages can act as "test cases" for monsters despite also being competition.




I'll probably do that Samurai post tomorrow or...something. Shrug. [/shrug]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on January 02, 2015, 02:16:14 pm
Good read The Damned. I'll input next week hopefully. Getting a laptop adapter in the mail, hoping this laptop is even usable.

Going back on spears for 140 and spears now.. I was looking to make a Golden Sun team if my Final Fantasy Teams keep losing and came across the 3 "elemental" spears. Did FFMaster forget to note the spears' element or are they all supposed to be non-elemental?

Current 3 Proc Spears - 12 WP, +1 SP with a dragon breath proc
Suggestion 1 for 140 - 12 WP, +1 SP, Elements Fire, Lightning, and Ice with no proc
Suggestion 2 for 140 - 11, 12, 13 WP +1 SP. Same strengths of the elemental guns with Fire being the strongest.
No 2H/2S for any spears. I figure these are okay since they don't make katana and swords obsolete while making Lancer and spear much more versatile.

Would would definitely enjoy having elemental spears. Would probably be OP, but I think it could be balanced. Maybe if Landers lost robe access? Black Robe + Elemental Spear would become a staple combo, and jumps having leave a lot of free equipment slots to further boost big damage. For other classes equipping spears they'll have more options besides +2 SP Javelin.

How good were spears in past builds? Any history on spears being OP?

If I get that laptop my posts will become much easier to read. Can't stand formatting on the phone. Copy and paste crashes the browser, and there's always a chance deleting entire posts when formating.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 03, 2015, 11:58:28 pm
(Oh gods, I am so behind on watching videos. Ugh.)

Spears in Arena have always been rather...middling at best IIRC. They've never been overpowered aside of arguably Javelin, which is less "overpowered" than it is the only spear besides maybe Obelisk and possibly Holy Spear that's currently usable. Looking back through the changelog, the last time that Spears changed despite their rather glaring mediocrity was version 134, which should tell you a lot.

As for the three spears with elemental breath that aren't Holy Spear, no, FFMaster didn't forget to note them being elemental. They unfortunately aren't, which means they're "supposed" to be non-elemental, which hasn't done them any good. As such, I figure that's what most likely to change going into 140 since he specifically said he was going to focus on Spears and Swords, so we'll probably see them becoming the same element as their breaths. I doubt that will be overpowered even if Lancers get Robes back (like they should) given that Lancers have crap MA and Oil doesn't add Weakness anymore. I could definitely be wrong about that though, even with Jump being non-elemental regardless of the weapon used.

At the very least, Holy Spear's proc also still needs to change since we've known for a while that procs can only generate one hit regardless of the ability used, just like they can't generate status from a damaging (physical?) ability. I'm not sure what's going to happen to the other Spears though. Shrug.


P.S. Yeah, posting from a phone seems horrible. I don't understand how people do it and I say this noting how long-winded I can be isn't a factor into that befuddlement.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on January 16, 2015, 11:49:59 pm
(Given I was serious about not wanting the video thread to get derailed again, I'll respond here.)

Re: Quickening "solution" of 8 CT: It's a Trap! [/Admiral Ackbar] [/meme]:

From the video thread:

Quote from: Malroth on January 16, 2015, 09:08:06 pm
8ct was chosen specificaly to con thief fanatics into running shortcharge since a Short charge thief is specificaly NOT a attack up/Defense up/Throw item/Equip heavy blade/two swords/two hands/martial arts thief thus capable of doing some other job well and is instead capable of only getting otherwise redundant turns hence being a trap option.


Malroth, I understood your intentions, but it is clearly not as much of a trap as you think it to be if, as I said, at the very least Bad Luck is made to be actually usable. Then Thief will have another valid reason to have Short Charge anyway just within Steal. Sure, Short Charge on a Thief is generally a worse option than all of those things--well, except Equip Heavy Blade now arguably given Muramasa's effect got robbed by Spell Edge and Knightsword Thieves are...questionable even with the buff to everything but Chaos Blade. Even as a lesser option, though, as long as Short Charge'd Bad Luck is valid, then it's not a "trap". A trap is more like using Equip X anything on the new Mime or the way that the newest Masamune is set-up.

Unless, of course, you're suggesting that we leave Bad Luck to remain useless, which would be absurd, which is why I highly doubt that's what you actually meant (to imply).

Even in the scenario where Bad Luck remains arguably the worst skill in the game as it currently is, it's not even a trap because said Thieves are still gaining the all-important stat that is Speed and, here's the kicker, damage on top of that since both Knives and Ninjato incorporate Speed into their formulas. If it's a Sword Thief, then, yeah, his/her damage isn't going up as directly, though it still is technically due to the amount of Speed they have since more turns equip more chances to hit or, generally, do anything.

It's also not a trap because they're generally getting turns quicker and have innate Flee, so should they be stupid enough to get mid-charged (repeatedly) they can still run (far) away while generally getting the move off or healing up at a faster rate than they would have initially. This especially given the HP and MP boost a lot of Clothing and Hats got coming into 1.39.

Sigh. I'd be all for trying to balance Quickening that if I thought it would work, but I clearly don't and frankly the ability has been dominating the game in terms of usage and effect for way too long. It's literally been on about half of all team for at least a couple of years already since, unless you're a masochist like me, there's no reason not to use it unfortunately.

So, let me argue about this another way, since at least a couple of people are so insistent about arguing that Quickening isn't somehow overpowered like that itself would be a reason to keep it around even if it were factually, 100% provably true: What good does Quickening do for the game by sticking around?

It clearly doesn't encourage diversity, especially when it comes to Thieves. It has no straight counters to it other than trying to kill that unit or hit them with Death Sentence, both of which are easily countered by Reraise and general revival; Slow Dance doesn't counter it because 33% odds are not beating 100% odds. It obviates at least three other skills--Cheer Song, Slow Dance, arguably Speed Ruin--outright and diminishes the impact of several more. It also makes +1 Speed items generally less important than they otherwise would be.

So, what good does it staying around actually do? And why does a unit ever need to potentially excess an already immense but still fair effective speed of 20 that arguably requires equipment investment? I'm genuinely curious because no one has ever said they actually like Quickening or that it's a good ability, just that it's not "overpowered" before going on with their days like that alone makes it worth keeping just because it's there to be used (over and over again). At this point, it almost seems like it's around just because it's been around for a while, which is arguably the most irritating thing about it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 21, 2015, 09:54:39 pm
I do hope that the next update to arena fixes the Death Sentence glitch with items that are only immune to dead but not death sentence. That was fine before 1.39. Because otherwise items like Gold Armor, Genji Shield and Angel Ring will might as well be get out of jail free cards if you get my monopoly
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 08, 2015, 10:46:10 am
(It's not quite get of jail free since you do lose your turn on the turn you would otherwise die.)

That said, it's highly likely that it will be fixed going into the next version or maybe even as 1.39d whenever FFMaster comes back given that it was that way in previous versions as you say. I still say that Death Sentence and Reraise need to cancel each outright so as to be consistent even with as horribly as Death Sentence as been kicking my ass of late; Death Sentence probably needs to block Reactions too so as to not be rendered even more moot by Dragon Spirit if that's the case though.

Anyway, among the many things I need to do before potentially losing Internet is posting that list of Katana and Draw Out suggestions. I suppose it didn't help that I changed my mind about a lot of this and that I only just now got done with it:



KATANA
Asura Knife: Gains Strengthen: Fire, Ice & Lightning and +1 PA over just Strengthen: Fire, partly because it's outdone by the new Phoenix Blade, partly because of the change to Kaiser Plate, partly because it's always been kind of mediocre despite being the strongest physical katana and partly because between Samurai and Paladins, currently only female Samurai can make decent use of Black Robe; male Samurai and Paladins of either sex need MA boosting stuff to get the best out of the Strengthen of Black Robe, which means they can't really use it in the first place. As compensation, the new Asura Knife may "need" to lose +1 WP though.


Kotetsu Knife: Gains +1 WP and Strengthen: Holy & Dark over just Strengthen: Dark. The +1 WP is mostly just for the sake of not being weaker than freaking Sadist Whip as far as Grand Cross goes given Kotetsu Knife is only Dark weapon (of a grand total of two) to actually go off PA. The Strengthen: Holy & Dark part is because neither Samurai nor Paladin can equip Golden Hairpin without aid of the immensely popular Equip Clothing--please note the sarcasm. As such, the only way to Strengthen both of those elements otherwise for them is to use the currently way nerfed 108 Gems


Bizen Boat: Just gains +1 MA rather than the 100% Dispel Magic I was considering giving it since now I'm now no longer certain about the 100% Silence being entirely useless, if only because Mediators tend to not guard against Silence. That's still kind of dubious, but as long as it becomes the only katana capable of giving MA, people will definitely use it if only for that.


Murasame: This is probably fine as it is, though it could maybe go up another +1 WP still. Shrug.


Heaven's Cloud: Gains Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water, but loses +1 WP since it's getting to keep its chance of 50% Slow. This would have not gotten consideration for this particular if not for the fact that Chirijiraden lost Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water.


Kiyomori: Loses +2 MA and +1 WP and gains Immune: Poison and 50% Cast: Bio. Now other katana might see some actual use. Much like how I think Wizard Staff could be changed into something more useful and special than a literal Wizard Rod clone, (female) Samurai so hellbent on having a +2 MA weapon can just start using C Bag. After all, it can be used with Two Hands.


Muramasa: GAINS BACK ITS 100% FAITH PROC THAT SPELL EDGE SHOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN; MEANWHILE, SPELL EDGE GETS BACK ITS +1 MA AND 100% SPELL ABSORB CHANCE AND ALL IS LESS WRONG WITH THE WORLD. [/RAGE]


Kikuichimo(n)ji: This is fine as it is. I'm still surprised people took my Quake with Fear thing seriously, but it's worked out surprisingly well, so...yeah. Keep doing that.


Masamune: Assuming that we're trying to use the new (horrible) -2 Speed, Always: Haste, still WP: 8 Masamune as a base for changes, then at the very least that version *needs* Immune: Slow to be worth a damn. Even then it's still...meh at best since the Always: Haste doesn't *really* matter (and never will if Quickening dies like it should). Since Always: Haste doesn't do anything other than maybe making sure the A.I. has to spend less turns Hasting than it otherwise would, it's rather superfluous, so the design as a whole can and should probably be scrapped. At least we know -Stats work now between this and the newer Phoenix Blade though.

As such, I might as well just suggest going with the version of Masamune I was originally going to suggest for 1.39 before FFMaster's return: Range: 2; Initial: Regen & Haste; 20% Cast: Comet; 2H: Yes; 2S: No.

I originally had it being Forced Two Hands as well and increasing to 10 WP, but I figure that letting it stay at 8 WP justifies letting it stay boosted by Two Hands, which allows Samurai to use it "better" than Paladins would if it was the case otherwise. It also makes it less likely that its damage will be overpowered since Comet triggering is a free 100 damage for ever strike it trigger on, which can easily add up. Comet's chance for trigging may "need" to be higher though.


Chirijiraden: This can probably stay the suicidal Initial: Berserk, +1 Speed it is now I guess since people seem to actually be using it. I'm not sure if Always: Berserk, +1 Move or Always: Berserk, +1 Speed, -1 PA would be better though.




DRAW OUT
Asura: (Male) Samurai need some type of way to use this better than  either Squire or Monk (or Paladin...or Dancer...or Scholar...or...) currently can in my opinion since male Samurai have so little going for them presently anyway. Hell, the biggest upgrade they got was the change to Chirijiraden the katana, which is technically still a nerf given at very least how suicidal and one-note it is and how useful the old version of Chirijiraden the katana often was.

I'm tempted to say that the "best" solution would be to have Asura hit the user, as odd as that seems, given then that it would force the Clothes-wearing classes to forego either Power Sleeve's +2 PA or 108 Gems Strengthen: All Elements if they don't want to take damage. Sure, the new Defense Armlet would make using Power Sleeve still viable, but outside of Squire, Paladin, Geomancer and Scholar, no other class that can already use Asura better than male Samurai would get access to Strengthen: Fire anymore. Of those, Geomancer would have to forego using Power Sleeve for Black Robe while Paladin can use Asura Knife and Squire & Scholar can use Flame Rod anyway. Additionally, only Paladin can also become Immune: Oil through use of Platina Helmet while still absorbing Fire without incurring the currently fatal Weaknesses that Shields bring. (I suppose that Lancer would also join the classes that can make better use of [current] Asura if Lancers get Robes back like they should, but since that's not finalized yet....)

Shrug. I just figure that something needs to change if Asura is going to actually be worth using on male Samurai since currently male Samurai have nothing going for them in their primary save for  Kiyomori and Masamune, which a bunch of other classes also use (way) better, and their two Innate abilities.

Relatively independent of the above but not necessarily exclusive to it, I also think it would be good if Asura dropped its "Enemy Only" aspect and/or lived up to its name by being tri-directional like how currently only Houkouton is. Again, shrug.


Koutetsu: This is currently fine as it is, as evidenced by it being used quite a bit even though Kotetsu Knife sees next to no use.


Bizen Boat: Being subject to M-EV is/was a step towards fairness, but I suppose it's also true that didn't/doesn't really matter most of the time that Bizen Boat is used given that it most often happens to be used to mid-charge someone. As such, the only other thing I could see being done to balance this--given the current unfortunate restrictions on Draw Out (and Elemental/Geomancy)--would be to reduce its AoE from 2 to 1. That might not be really necessary though. Shrug.


Murasame: This, on the other, *definitely* needs to be AoE 1 rather than AoE 2 in my opinion. There's really no good reason that you should be able to do essentially X-Potion or better your entire party instantly, even if its possible for you to accidentally heal your opponent. Unless, of course, you Zombie them or, more likely, they're already Zombified due to (how popular) Cursed Ring (is still). On top of that, Mimes still being around only makes this even more overpowered and obnoxious as a form of healing.


Heaven's Cloud: If any of the Draw Out's should be "Enemy Only", then it should really be this because both this and its katana are basically nigh-worthless to Wind absorb strategies anyway given how  the only way non-Armor units can protect against Slow is Sprint Shoes. While that's personally fine with me, Slow 2 having absurdly high accuracy aside, it's part of the reason that this is easily the least used Draw Out and that likely wouldn't change even with the proposed change to Heaven's Cloud the katana if Heaven's Cloud the ability is kept as it currently is otherwise.


Kiyomori: This is...as fine as it's going to get, I guess. It's difficult to tell when Berserk status currently lasts forever given this just destroys Berserk units by just itself. The only other way to weaken it without nerfing it into the ground would be to make it subject to M-EV somehow, but I'd personally rather just try balancing Berserk status and Insult first, preferably by giving the former finite CT and making the latter less likely to hit. Beyond that, Poison's CT may need to be shortened, though that's more a general issue.


Murasama: This is fine as it is outside of my views on Death Sentence/Doom and how it could be more consistent, though that's an issue with the status itself and not this ability. So, yes, this is fine currently.


Kikuichimo(n)ji: This is also fine as it is, though losing the old version of Chirijiraden hurt it a bit. The suggested potential change to Heaven's Cloud the katana should alleviate though.


Masamune: Ugh. This ability. I still think it may likely need to be weakened, somehow, but I'll be content with weakening or excising outside factors first, i.e. eliminating Quickening from the game. Aside from that, as with Kiyomori the ability, Regen's CT (and maybe even Haste's CT) may need to be shortened, though again that's more a general issue. Currently I guess that means it's "fine" though. Grumble.


Chirijiraden: This ability is also tricky to balance. On the one hand, it "deserves" to be powerful given how much you have to spend on it and it's already subject to M-EV. On the other hand, it hits *really* horribly hard when powered-up and that it's subject to M-EV is moot more often than not, which is part of the reason that Draw Out-bot Geomancers prefer to use it over any other Draw Out even with the potential for collateral damage. The "best" thing to do might be to reduce its power slightly to MA*8. Again, "shrug" about how necessary that "actually" is for "actual" balance.



As always, feel free to comment on this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on February 09, 2015, 03:56:24 am
Lets analyze these ideas 1 at a time

Katanas:

Asura;
+1PA stregnthen fire,ice,lightning, fire elemental 10WP. Doesn't help male Paladins in any meaningful way, but helps Male samurai be scary melee damage monsters thanks to 2h/attack up damage stacking. Opens alternatives to black robe on a summon/black magic female Samurai but otherwise the ice/lightning strengthening would be difficult to use.

Kotesu:
10PA dark elemental, strengthen holy/dark.  Dark crossing paladins will like this, It could also see use on a white magic female samurai as a way of both stregnthing a holy/dia offence and healing allied cursed ring users.

Biezenbolt:
+1Ma 9wp 100% add Silence, Female samurai would equip it for the MA, 2sword proc builds might place it in the first slot in the off chance that the rare unprotected mage might be affected but since silence is such a scary status effect on the wrong unit that's not going to happen often.

Murasame:
13WP Heals target, Immune Berserk.    This is the new go to weapon for Spellbreaker/Kagesougi builds and is quite a competitive southern cross weapon as well. Female Samurai are looking at a very easy 250 dmg pre fury spellbreaker while equip heavyblade ninjas can hit up to 390 damage maxed out.

Heaven's cloud:
8wp Strengthen Earth/wind/water Wind Elemental, 50% Add Slow.  Won't break any damage records but definately has its place on a 2swords proc paladin as well a Lore Samurai and makes Geomancy samurai almost viable again.

Kiyomori:
9wp, Immune Poison, 50% chance to cast Bio.   No one would equip this, ever,  both classes that can equip it have easy access to both heavy armor and in class add regen+awesome other status and melee guys are going to go for PA boosting. If it kept its 10WP It might be concidered for salty rage Samurai who don't want to bother with Chiri's effects wearing off but it still wouldn't really compete with Asura.

Muramasa:
9wp 100% inflict Faith.   Ahhh old Muramasa, how I've missed you..... gauranteed magic vunerability on a class chassis with the stats to actually cast magic while being immune to enemy status effect spells.....Drool

Kikuichimonji:
someone's tried the 70/70 quake melee monster yet?  guess i've got to see how that's working out before i comment.

Masamune:
-2speed 8wp Always haste:  currently worse than being a empty fist samurai,  at 12 WP it could at least be the "i hit things hard in slow motion" sword but at 8 its a sick joke

Range: 2; Initial: Regen & Haste; 20% Cast: Comet; 2H: Yes; 2S: No.  Now THIS is a Katana worth equipping at 8WP or even 7

Weapon changes If all Taken Together.   Elemental Melee gets a Pretty hefty boost from the improved Asura, Caster Samurai loose a point of MA across the board but get much stronger alternate weapons almost to the point where berserk protection is no longer mandatory. Drawout gets mostly weaker with the exception of Kiku snipers but bards still will be the best draw out users since they will be unaffected.  Asura/Kotetsu Summoner Samurai may become a thing especially with their ability to heal allied undead with melee strikes.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 10, 2015, 02:38:15 am
I guess you have a point about my proposal for the new Kiyomori katana. I wonder if just adding +1 Move to that would "fix" it given that I can't really think of anything else to do even though that obviously steps on Knives' space a bit.

All I know is that Kiyomori really shouldn't be "C Bag: The Katana" since otherwise female Samurai aren't going to ever use any of the other Katana, though maybe the changes to Asura Knife, Kotetsu Knife and Heaven's Cloud the katana would see that change. Hell, even the nigh exclusive use of Kiyomori wouldn't be such a problem if male Samurai weren't so...mediocre at best.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Malroth on February 10, 2015, 04:28:12 am
well if the immunity was to something that actually threatens a caster samurai like Charm or Don't Act then the replacement Kiyomori would see use on tanky caster setups, but poison has no meaning for either paladins or samurai.

Alternately it could be the Non Elemental Melee Katana at 10WP, 20 WEV Immune Blind
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on February 10, 2015, 11:09:37 pm
(Damn it. I always miss a typo or omission, even in shorter posts.)

I must say I like that idea. I vaguely thought of something along those lines when considering alternatives, but then dismissed it between Diamond Armor's ubiquity and the fact that the new Chirijiraden would easily out damage it. Still, it somewhat ties into the actual abilities of Kiyomori the ability and would actually be useful while letting Samurai use something other than Diamond Armor--say, perhaps, Carabini Mail--with it instead; it also be a less suicidal option than the new Chirijiraden. Not sure if it "should" get more W-EV though--like 25%--between male Samurai's general lack of active healing and the fact that I admittedly wouldn't mind giving the proposal for the new Masamune 20% W-EV on top of its Range and other things.

Shrug. It's not like I'll ultimately decide these things anyway.

Regardless, before I forget again, someone has done the 70/70 thing with Kikuichimo(n)ji on a (male) Samurai, but it was with Two Swords rather than the innate Two Hands. The damage was pretty good, like 300~ average when just one procs went off IIRC. It's been a while though since anyone used it since I think that person was Darkblade and that was like two years ago already at least.

(Also, before I forget, part of the reason for switching Muramasa and Spell Edge back with each other is because 100% Faith coming from faster units, one of which has innate access to Two Swords, is pretty overpowering and the new Muramasa is horrifically underpowered compared to it on top of that. Add in the fact that having access to Faith is overshadowing most of the other Ninjato and directly undermines Ninja's elemental -tons, which have been seeing a lot less use lately despite Atheist Bow now existing and the changes to Poles and, yeah, it really needs to change back.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on February 11, 2015, 08:36:13 pm
I think that two items that should gain immunity to poison would be the P Bag and the Light Robe. Given that there are no accessories to prevent poison, and that the Light Robe and P Bag are actually liabilities if poison is inflicted, gaining the immunity on these items might be very helpful. It wouldn't make either overpowered either since P Bag is...well...a bag with no WEV or damage potential (for the most part) and the Light Robe provides a weak 75 HP and an average 50 MP. So...yeah I think that gaining poison immunity on these would be just fine. I also would rather C Bag get a makeover (as opposed to Kiyomori). Yes, Kiyomori is like an auto bye for female Samurai, but C Bag is outdone by almost every weapon group by something in it. In fact, feasibly, it would only be a viable option on Monks and Ninjas, both classes that don't use magic. Even if Mimes could equip bags, it would be at best mediocre as mimes charge times are interrupted by an ally's action. So only talk skill and a few other skills would get a (mild) benefit. (Although it would make a draw out mime a bit stronger).

I think C Bag should gain immunity to Stop, Sleep and Don't Act, and change to +1 MA. This would actually have the C Bag be a strong alternative to some of the stronger, but not as buffed weapons. (Seriously, look at a Scholar. They have access to four other weapons beaides the C Bag for +2MA. Would you rather your squishy scholar gain a bit of physical evade with another weapon and also be able to hurt a little bit if it decides to go for melee? Or no physical evade and doing barely noticeable bag whacks when it decides to melee? I know what I'm choosing...)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on March 15, 2015, 05:29:18 am
Genji Helmet: With the Salty Rage around for Always: Berserk and 2 out of 3 jobs that equip armor can also use Chiri for Initial: Berserk (which also has +1 Speed) I don't think will see many using Genji Helmet anymore as it is right now. It could do the same thing as its armor equivalent with ~70 HP and +1 Speed and fill in that "gap" I suppose.

Silk Robe: The Silk Robe got some more MP in 1.39 but it still needs a little more. While randomly trying new equipment setups I found out that Black Hood + Wizard Robe was overall better than Holy Miter + Silk Robe that I have currently. The former gives +175 HP, +70 MP, +2 MA while the latter gives +185 HP, +40 MP, +2 MA. That's a 10 HP loss in exchange of 30 MP which is pretty significant.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on March 24, 2015, 03:19:00 am
(I honestly don't remember the entirety of what I wanted to post when I asked silentkaster to remind me, but putting things off for at least a couple of months will do that, especially with my horrible memory.)

Regardless, I can agree with both of the above comments about Genji Helmet, which literally no one is using, and Silk Robe needing improvements still. Genji Helmet as +1 Speed would definitely see some use too, especially if Quickening dies as it should.

****

Re: (Re)Making An Accessory that has Immune: Poison vs. Light Robe and P Bag gaining Immune: Poison: Between the two options, I still think the better one would just be to give 108 Gems back Immune: Poison since it's currently nigh-worthless without any status immunities. Meanwhile, Light Robe and P Bag see a bunch of use still and, on armored units at least, there's have way to be Immune: Poison via Platina Helmet; Monks also get the still-immunity-bloated Chakra Band. Not that there shouldn't be more Immune: Poison items or at least one that any unit can use; I just don't think it should be by way of Immune: Poison being innate on Light Robe and P Bag. That may just be me though.


Re: Crisis on Infinitely Superfluous C Bag: I'd be up for changing C Bag due to simple fact that even in vanilla, "+2 MA" is easily the most used Item Attribute. So C Bag being the least used bag is hardly surprising. That said, giving it that many immunities seems a bit...weird-slash-overmuch. Why immunity to all three of those things, silentkaster?

****

So yeah, I can't really remember what I was going to say about here before, but I know at the very least that I was going to reiterate that I increasingly agree with Dokurider's suggestion for an Accessory that is Immune: Blind & Charm. I thus again reiterate that I think N-Kai Armlet would be the best fit for it despite being already decent since we really do need another Immune: Blind accessory, if only so that Angel Ring doesn't have a monopoly given all the many people that use Grand Cross.

Sure, it would be another blow to Dark element users as a source of offense, but, honestly, Dark element as viable offense isn't going to be picking up any time soon. Dark doesn't benefit from Oil--it shouldn't, at least as long as Demi is Dark element. Dark easily has the worst weapons right now, which adding Balmung would help, but not by much. And Cursed Ring isn't going anywhere in popularity, at least as long as Quickening remains.

So, yeah, let's please add Immune: Blind to N-Kai Armlet in the next version, FFMaster.

(Beyond that, I think I was going to start suggesting that we try to replace Mime with some other class given how mechanically broken Mime still is or maybe even outright introduce other human classes, but that can wait. To be truthful, though, all of my ideas for "replacements" are leaning towards mage classes.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on March 26, 2015, 09:55:06 am
Typing from a phone so response won't be too detailed. Actually, the +1MA could probably go from the Bag. However, there is no viable way, with the exception of the unreliable Finger Guard, to block Talk Skill. Even Chakra Band doesn't block against the most (arguably) useful Talk Skill, Mimic Daravon. This blocks the status used by Talk Skill and is a good balance. It will probably mostly see use from support units without providing MA. It does still leave them open to DS and Berserk so it doesn't completely blunt Talk Skill. That was my thought behind it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on March 27, 2015, 09:32:32 am
Probably the most balanced class in Arena right now.
+Stats are fine. Don't change a thing.
+Basic skill is a fine primary and secondary when paired with almost all classes.
-Counter Tackle is the only issue I have with this class. On high PA units you don't want this going off when you're near or in critical. One of the few physical attacks that can lead to a draw game.
-Ultima. I mean come on 5 CT. MAx9. 1 AOE. Meanwhile Quake/Tornado users landing 250 damage on 40 faith units.



Stats are fine. Has potential to be more than a support class with the right builds. Maybe a hybrid at most since Item IS the primary ability of this class.
+Abilities are all great.

I'd like to recommend a change to Phoenix Down. It's currently the weakest of the rez abilities in Arena giving 1-20 HP. I suggest giving 1 to one more percent than what poison deals. This would prevent sandbag looping since you would eventually get up with enough HP to survive poison.



Stat wise it's balanced. The only class that can use Knight Swords so it has the 0 Class Evasion. I think that's a bit much since there's classes like Thief with 20 C-EV with access to the Main Gauche. Would giving Paladin 5 C-EV hurt?

Ability wise I think Paladin is fine as is. Versatile builds. Self sustaining tanky Grand Cross Paladins, DomieV's Talk Skill/Warpath/Cherche/SCross Disruption Tank Paladin, White Magic Paladins like Truelight's from Crossroads.

Equipment wise. Fine as is.... If it were up to me, which it should never be, I'd remove Paladin getting Katana and give them Flails. That's just me though.


Versatile class. Great ability set, sets, and equipment choices.

Perfect class after the changes to spell guns. Almost every weapon has a use. Bowgun needs an update though. Needs to be a graphic on Armor Break.


Monk is fine as is.
Nerf Chakra Band.
Remove the initial haste headband. Add Super Ribbon
+1 SP, +1 MA, +1 PA +5HP +5MP or something like that.


You mean Time Mage / Priest
Stat wise are fine. Maybe an extra point of PA just because.
Equipment options are fine.

Abilities are fine on paper, especially the new instant Cure spell. Love it with high MA/Faith builds like OHKO holy bots.

Protect, Shell and Regen will forever be outshined by Wall and Masamune due to when the AI tend to use them. (Love instant Wall btw). Would instant Regen be too OP? Maybe changing regen into WoW's Regrowth (acts as a cure and adds regen 100%).


I'll stop here for now. It's more than I expected
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on March 28, 2015, 10:25:16 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on March 27, 2015, 09:32:32 am
Quote from: Shintroy on March 27, 2015, 09:32:32 am

I'd like to recommend a change to Phoenix Down. It's currently the weakest of the rez abilities in Arena giving 1-20 HP. I suggest giving 1 to one more percent than what poison deals. This would prevent sandbag looping since you would eventually get up with enough HP to survive poison.


I have to respectfully disagree on both counts, that it's the weakest rez ability and to buff its HP restoration ability.

I don't believe it's the weakest because it offers many things that other revival abilities simply don't. Firstly, it's 100% accurate. (Okay, yes there are times when the AI will try to throw an item through the ceiling or a wall but this is an AI error, not an error of the item or the ability.) This is huge because no other revival ability can claim PD's accuracy. Secondly, combined with Throw Item or placed on a chemist, it has a longer range, no true vertical tolerance and is instant. It costs no MP and has no penalty to use, either. If this even counts at all, it is limited to 99 uses per match, but I don't believe I've ever seen this happen, and really, would prevent an endless match (say three units all the same speed were all together where the PD user uses PD, the enemy unit (say with 100% accuracy and instant) kills the revived unit, and the revived unit misses its turn...this could potentially be an endless loop but for there being only 99 uses of PD a match). It does not count on Faith or Brave either. So in terms of the HP it grants only, yes it is potentially the weakest (though Wish could arguably be weaker) but only in that department, really. So I believe it's pretty balanced as is.

To buff the PD with an HP boost would debuff poison even further. Poison is currently a meh enough status in my opinion just due to the fact that it's self-curable, often negated just by restoring HP or the passive ability Move-HP UP, and can potentially backfire by fueling abilities like Balance or a Blade Beam proc from the Moonlight sword. (Though I do agree with a minor debuff in bringing back an accessory that can block it...I'd agree with The Damned on adding it back to 108 Gems and/or taking away Earth absorption on Magic Ring and adding a Poison Immunity since there are so many other ways to negate/absorb Earth Damage.)

Anyway, here are a current list of abilities that can heal poison. Note that those abilities mentioned may add Regen and therefore cure poison, but won't work if the unit has Light Robe or P Bag equipped.

Squire: Heal
Chemist: Antidote
Paladin: Nurse (Adds Regen)
Monk: Stigma Magic
Priest: Esuna, Regen (Adds Regen)
Mediator: Refute
Samurai: Masamune (Adds Regen)
Scholar: Mad Science (Adds Regen)
Bard: Life Song (Can Proc Regen)

Also Notable: Lancer can avoid taking poison damage by jumping. Another Note: Mime can Mimic any of these abilities which would cure poison and/or add Regen. (If I missed any, please let me know)

With so many ways to cure poison in addition to the general HP adding abilities to otherwise deal with poison, and the fact that all of these can be used on self, I don't think PD should be buffed. In fact, Poison is a counter to PD if anything, and an effective one at that which makes up for its general ineffectiveness otherwise.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on March 29, 2015, 03:57:30 am
(You missed Regenerator, technically, silentkaster as well as the fact that the first Cure was changed specifically this version to to combat Poison. Otherwise, yes, you got everything.)

Regardless, yeah, Poison's sole use basically is screwing over Phoenix Down. If that goes away, then Poison is utterly worthless even with as annoyingly long as it lasts. Cure got changed to keep it from screwing over mages (and usually just mages), which was basically the few other things Poison was/is actually good at. With that more or less gone, screwing over Phoenix Down and Berserk units is all it has. Taking away screwing over Phoenix Down (and Wish) means that Poison status might as well not even be in Arena anymore.

That said, there really does need at least one accessory that is Immune: Poison again. Hence why I've been harping about 108 Gems getting it back. In fact, I'm not entirely against two since making Magic Ring lose Earth would be fine with me since Quake and Earth Slash need to be nerfed regardless and yet Titan still needs a buff.


Quote from: silentkaster on March 26, 2015, 09:55:06 am
Typing from a phone so response won't be too detailed. Actually, the +1MA could probably go from the Bag. However, there is no viable way, with the exception of the unreliable Finger Guard, to block Talk Skill. Even Chakra Band doesn't block against the most (arguably) useful Talk Skill, Mimic Daravon. This blocks the status used by Talk Skill and is a good balance. It will probably mostly see use from support units without providing MA. It does still leave them open to DS and Berserk so it doesn't completely blunt Talk Skill. That was my thought behind it.


I see. I can get behind that I suppose, even if the part I put in bold rather ignores how Defense Ring single-handedly blocked every status Talk Skill could inflict as recently as the last version of Arena. I mean, that was half of the reason I suggested Stall in the first place, even if I now somewhat regret that.

Still, given how obnoxiously long Sleep lasts (since it hasn't been changed from vanilla), I am totally not against anything else being Immune: Sleep even if its Sleep CT really does need to be reduced by half, if not more. At this point, between Stop the spell and Stall somewhat running wild, I'm also not against something else being Immune: Stop either.

Quote from: Shintroy on March 27, 2015, 09:32:32 am
*Squire stuff*

*Chemist stuff*

*Paladin stuff*

*Archer stuff*

*Monk stuff*

*Priest stuff*

I'll stop here for now. It's more than I expected.


Geez. I feel extra long-winded now if that's more than you expected to type. Regardless, I'll use spoilers of my own to try to keep this post uncluttered. There's no need for me to (directly) comment on Chemist (again) though since I already did that above.

Pretty much all agreed here. Ultima needs a buff (again) and Counter Tackle would be perfectly fine so long as you got rid of Bullrush's recoil, even if that meant lessening the damage on it.


Nice to know someone else agrees with the idea that Paladins "should" get Flails even though literally no one said anything when I brought it up months ago. I'm not entirely sure if they "need" to lose Katana though, if only because that would leave only Samurai as being able to use Katana and right now barely half of Katana get used as it is. This especially given that female Samurai never use anything save for Kiyomori in most instances.


So you no longer think that Gastrafitis needs a boost then?


I couldn't disagree about this class more, even despite having agreed with silentkaster completely about Phoenix Down not needing a buff. At least with Phoenix Down, I could understand why you wanted it buff since the Poison sandbag loops are idiotic to look at with the A.I. never learning and Poison (and Regen) lasting way too long given they last after death in Arena.

Here, though, about the only thing I agree with is that Chakra Band needs to be nerfed, though pretty much everyone agrees with that (even if it's a bit annoying that Immune: Petrify isn't working on it as it "should"). The fact that Monk still has quadratic formulas is hugely problematic, as seen by the absurd amount of damage that Earth Slash can do when boosted to its highest levels. Leaving that as it is while giving a Monk innate access to a piece of headgear that boosts their PA even further would be horrible, even if Earth is the easiest element to negate. (Of course, this is ignoring how easily negated Holy is between Cursed Ring's still existent popularity and Oil not working Dark or Holy, so....)


I'm torn between agreeing that Regen the spell should be better and disagreeing it shouldn't solely because both Poison the spell and Poison the status shouldn't even be worse than they are. Even buffing Regen to instant heal wouldn't really do much between the recently buffed Cure and the continued existence of Masamune the ability in all of its overpowered glory. Regen also has the issue of having to compete with Regenerator on the same set, so there's that. Why "waste" an action when you can potentially get the status for free, especially when Regenerator is one of the more decent reactions for mages?

As such, I still think the "best" solution for Regen the spell, at least given how Regen the status currently works, is just to give it (and Poison) to Time Mage. At least then it's not on a class that literally has at least six other ways of healing and would have even more if you believe the best solution to getting the A.I. to use Protect and Shell more actively is having those heal a bit too. (It probably wouldn't do much, really, since the A.I. will use Protect and Shell. It just can't use them well unless it gets them off trying to soften the blow something that's charging, which both mostly benefits Shell rather than Protect and is part of why the newly buffed Wall indeed makes four other spells nigh-useless.)

Going back to Regen the spell (and Poison the spell), I suppose one way to buff them that I wouldn't be against is having them discriminate. No real reason that Regen can't be all only (and that Poison can't be enemy only).


Shrug.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on March 29, 2015, 05:43:13 am
I do see most teams have Haste somewhere... so why not make the Undead impossible to be Hasted. In most games I've played, the undead are inherently slow. And they can't regen either. So I guess Regen could be disabled too. Kind of like how Reraise is by default. That would indirectly buff Poison status since the Undead could not cancel it out with stuff that adds Regen like Masamune or Nurse. Regenerator would become useless on Cursed Ring users. I'm forgetting stuff probably but just throwing my idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on March 29, 2015, 06:31:12 am
I think Gastrophetes gaining dispel would be OP  now that I see what Archer/Chivalry can do. Shoutouts to TrueLight.

I need to go through the equipment first before I talk about class changes. I completely forgot about there being no anti poison accessories in the game when I thought of the phoenix down buff to combat poison loops.

I'll post later though after I finally get matches recorded. Hard to find recording software for a non HD, 1.8ghz single processor laptop.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on March 30, 2015, 10:52:29 am
(Understood.)

It occurred to me while remaking "Blinded by the Light" (the team) into "No Angels" that I've actually come to agree with making Oil apply to Dark and Holy elements now that Oil no longer doubles elemental damage. Before I was mostly against it applying to Dark and Holy elements since it would make Demi 2 into AoE Death and Dia would become really obnoxious what with Weakness still doubling damage (which probably needs to change anyway, for Shields' sake). With that aspect gone, I think Oil working for all elements would probably be fine now, especially since it helps get around Cursed Ring generally telling Holy absorb to screw off and making Dark element to be so "conflicted" due to its continued overuse (in part due to Quickening).

Not a huge deal to me either way though. I just figured I'd post this before it ended up slipping my mind.

(If it happens, then I'd be fine with renaming Oil something else like "Imperil" or "Expose" or even "Libra" or "Achilles", though that's of course not necessary either.)


Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on March 29, 2015, 05:43:13 amI do see most teams have Haste somewhere... so why not make the Undead impossible to be Hasted. In most games I've played, the undead are inherently slow. And they can't regen either. So I guess Regen could be disabled too. Kind of like how Reraise is by default. That would indirectly buff Poison status since the Undead could not cancel it out with stuff that adds Regen like Masamune or Nurse. Regenerator would become useless on Cursed Ring users. I'm forgetting stuff probably but just throwing my idea.


I can get behind the "Regen can't stack on top of Undead" part and not just because it's something that I've been thinking about for my own patch(es). Another reason I agree with it is because Regen makes it really difficult currently to keep track of who the hell is Undead currently due to the status order making Regen's coloration take precedent over Undead's coloration, especially since Regen still works on the Undead normally.

So either making Regen (and Poison, I guess) unable to stack on top of Undead or pulling an FFVIII (?) and making Poison heal Undead units while Regen harms them would work for me as far as Regen goes with regards to Undead.

As for making Undead immune to Haste, as much as the overabundance of Haste annoys me despite being unfortunately understandable, I can't agree with this for three reasons. The first reason is that even if Undead was made immune to Haste, Quickening would still be usable by Cursed Ring units and it's the far more egregious problem, even compared to Masamune the ability. The second reason is that Slow is still pretty crippling and having no way to combat that just because you want to use Cursed Ring or, worse, get hit by Zombie or Necromonicon seems a bit much. The third and final reason is that FFMaster eventually wants to add monsters to Arena (still) and presumably two of those will be the Always: Undead monsters that are Skeleton and Ghost and it also seems overmuch to weaken them before the word "go" is even uttered as far as they are concerned.

Not that I'd be against trying it if other people are for it. I just think other anti-Haste options can be taken instead (or first), like changing Counter Tackle so you can't kill yourself with it or making Oil and Stop both cancel and block Haste. Stuff like that.

Still, both of those are good, interesting suggestions.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on April 02, 2015, 04:09:13 pm
I was editing one of my teams just now, and figured there is no reason to choose Wizard as primary if you have a Lore/Black Magic unit (I could say the same for some other classes comparing to it actually). The Scholar is superior to the Wizard in every way possible, stat-wise. I'll copy the stats here for reference:

Class     HP   MP  SP  PA  MA  Move Jump C-EV  Can equip
Wizard    106  87  8   3   12   3    3    5    Rod,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.
Scholar   106  92  8   7   12   3    3    5    Swd,Rod,Stf,Book,Pole,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.

Dropping MA to 11 and losing the C-EV to 0 could be a way to change this among others



Undead blocks Regen/Poison:
I suppose that way could work. Based on another game, they also have immunity to 'Mind' spells as they are 'mindless' I guess. I think Berserk, Confusion, Charm and Sleep are the FFT equivalents. However that might make Undead more of a good status. And how would the AI handle this I wonder...

Masamune (ability):
Separate: Haste, Regen instead of Add: Haste, Regen. You're still guaranteed one of the two if my knowledge is right about 'Separate'.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Otabo on April 02, 2015, 07:43:54 pm
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on April 02, 2015, 04:09:13 pm
I was editing one of my teams just now, and figured there is no reason to choose Wizard as primary if you have a Lore/Black Magic unit (I could say the same for some other classes comparing to it actually). The Scholar is superior to the Wizard in every way possible, stat-wise. I'll copy the stats here for reference:

Class     HP   MP  SP  PA  MA  Move Jump C-EV  Can equip
Wizard    106  87  8   3   12   3    3    5    Rod,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.
Scholar   106  92  8   7   12   3    3    5    Swd,Rod,Stf,Book,Pole,Hat,Clth,Robe,Acc.

Dropping MA to 11 and losing the C-EV to 0 could be a way to change this among others


Doing that would make it literally worse than Summoner is currently. (aside from HP, which isn't saying much.) Real problem with Scholar isn't even its stats compared to Wizard, its the skillset (mainly Quake and Tornado). I don't even know why Scholar is even that close to Wizard in stats in the first place; that has always bugged me for the longest time now. Wizard, IMO, needs to be buffed, stat-wise; they're supposed to be the prime offensive magic class; why Scholar is better than Wizard is right now is beyond me.

Then again, I don't like using mages period, so whatever happens to 'em, happens.


QuoteMasamune (ability):
Separate: Haste, Regen instead of Add: Haste, Regen. You're still guaranteed one of the two if my knowledge is right about 'Separate'.


Too weak. People would just turn to Haste 2, as if that spell isn't ALREADY being overused enough as it is now as its much more reliable. It'll just become a staple on most teams, just like how Raise/Raise 2 is pretty much. And for Regen, yeah - there's plenty of better ways to get that, whether it be from equips or abilities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on April 02, 2015, 11:24:36 pm
Quote from: The Damned on March 29, 2015, 03:57:30 am

I'm torn between agreeing that Regen the spell should be better and disagreeing it shouldn't solely because both Poison the spell and Poison the status shouldn't even be worse than they are. Even buffing Regen to instant heal wouldn't really do much between the recently buffed Cure and the continued existence of Masamune the ability in all of its overpowered glory. Regen also has the issue of having to compete with Regenerator on the same set, so there's that. Why "waste" an action when you can potentially get the status for free, especially when Regenerator is one of the more decent reactions for mages?

As such, I still think the "best" solution for Regen the spell, at least given how Regen the status currently works, is just to give it (and Poison) to Time Mage. At least then it's not on a class that literally has at least six other ways of healing and would have even more if you believe the best solution to getting the A.I. to use Protect and Shell more actively is having those heal a bit too. (It probably wouldn't do much, really, since the A.I. will use Protect and Shell. It just can't use them well unless it gets them off trying to soften the blow something that's charging, which both mostly benefits Shell rather than Protect and is part of why the newly buffed Wall indeed makes four other spells nigh-useless.)

Going back to Regen the spell (and Poison the spell), I suppose one way to buff them that I wouldn't be against is having them discriminate. No real reason that Regen can't be all only (and that Poison can't be enemy only).




I really think Regen (and Poison) being made instant would be a good change, especially if it does stay in White Magic.

Regen tends to be put on units that don't have good MA but are solid White Magic users like Paladins or Squires. The obvious reason for that is because putting cure spells on these units tend to be mediocre at best. So Regen is a good back up to provide at least a passive healing so the unit won't be out of the fight forever. The unfortunate thing about that is that the unit doesn't get the benefit of their spell until their next turn, and when the AI uses Regen, they or their teammates are usually already in trouble. So here's the problem you get into.

Turn 1: Charges Regen
Turn 2 (Usually doesn't make it this far): Runs in a corner, gains 15% Health.
Turn 3 (If Health amount wasn't significant enough health gain): Remains in corner (If it was enough) Tries to come back into fight with <50% health.

(Obviously Turn 4 would be the latter part of Turn 3 if necessary)

So Regen wastes at minimum two turns (depending on unit) but could waste up to four. The ability Masamune, which also grants Regen, starts working immediately. In fact, it may only be one turn before the unit rejoins the fight (and they're now hasted so they get their turn even faster!) Also, the ability Nurse grants Regen and the unit gets the benefit of Regen on the same turn, along with healing so they'll be back in the fight after one turn.

Also, since the instant Cure is in the same skillset, it wouldn't be a big de-buff to poison since the user must still carry specifically White Magic to have the benefit of the instant heal from Poison (at least in terms of exclusive magic users).

Of course, as a side note, Poison being instant would be the only obvious way to balance this. At least it could potentially create a "Poison curing" loop however unlikely that is...but still...Poison is generally only put on Death/Frog teams when their target is immune to one or both spells, or a heavy elemental absorb team that can't afford one of the more "useful" status spells JP wise. (As a side note, I also think the JP for Poison should be lowered to 50 as 100 doesn't separate it too much from the much more debilitating Frog, even if it is only single panel.)

Of course, moving Regen to Time Magic I think I'd be more on the fence about it being made instant. I really like White Magic being the only "Mage" way to deal with Poison instantly (and even then, the weak Cure still doesn't put a critical mage out of danger range usually). However, if Regen did move to Time Magic, I'd ask that Poison be moved to Ying Yang Magic, just to make it more viable to use.

Also, I agree with Regen/Poison being made smart targeted.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on April 03, 2015, 11:57:42 am
I'm working on an absorb team, and the only element I'm really interested in doing is lightning... but my options are SO limited. The only classes that do lightning damage are wizard, summoner and scholar. Geomancer has 3 wind element abilities and no lightning.. go figure.

Items aren't quite as bad, but we desperately need a lightning weapon for physical units. Fire has like 5 weapons and a bajillion abilities.. can't we spread that out a bit?

I suggest giving geomancer 1 lightning elemental, and a physical class such as paladin with something along the lines of "lightning stab". we also need a thundah katana, because. Just because. Making the air knife lightning will entice people to actually use it, yeah I get it's an air knife, but ff master's options on the subject seem limited as well. I understand this will offset the delicate balance between elemental stuff.. but is fire (and dark) SUPPOSED to be the most likely element to be used? Why can't they all be equal?

@WkW: wow, thanks for putting that together. I've had a lightning absorb idea on the back burner since 1.38, but I have to admit I was a little discouraged when I saw your lightning absorb team (which I love) has like half the items I plan on using. I'll have to make due with what we got (it doesn't make a difference if I build it or not?/bonjovireference) it's just a bit unfortunate that scholar/wizard is almost required, and as much a I'd like to put "equip ranged" on someone, more often than not you're better off putting "attack up" or something like that on an archer.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on April 03, 2015, 07:32:18 pm
I've made some tables for better comparison.

Elemental Abilities, by accessibility (139c)

Element     Jobs (# of abilities)               Target type
Fire        Wz(3),Su(2),Ge(2),Sm(1)             AoE(8)
Ice         Wz(3),Su(1),Ge(1),Sc(1)             AoE(5),Map(1)
Lightning   Wz(3),Su(1),Sc(1)                   AoE(4),Map(1)
Water       Wz(3),Su(1),Ge(2),Nj(1),Sc(1)       Single(1),AoE(6),Map(1)
Wind        Mk(1),Su(1),Ge(3),Sm(1),Nj(1),Sc(1) Single(2),AoE(5),Map(1)
Earth       Mk(1),Su(1),Ge(1),Sm(1),Sc(1)       Single(1),AoE(3),Linear(2)
Dark        Wz(1),Tm(2),Su(1),Sm(1),Nj(1),Sc(2) Single(2),AoE(5),Map(1)
Holy        Pr(2),Su(1)                         Single(2),AoE(1)



Fire
Fire, Nether Fire, Fire 2, Ifrit, Salamander, Demon Fire, Lava Ball, Asura
Ice
Ice, Nether Ice, Ice 2, Shiva, Blizzard, Rime Bolt
Lightning
Bolt, Nether Bolt, Bolt 2, Ramuh, Thunder Flare
Water
Water, Nether Water, Water 2, Leviathan, Water Ball, Quicksand, Suiton, Maelstrom
Wind
Wave Fist, Silf, Kamaitachi, Sand Storm, Gusty Wind, Heaven's Cloud, Fuuton, Tornado
Earth
Earth Slash, Titan, Local Quake, Kikuichimoji, Earth Dragon, Quake
Dark
Death, Demi, Demi 2, Odin, Koutetsu, Meiton, Shadow Shade, Bio 3
Holy
Dia, Holy, Cyclops



Elemental Weapons, by type (139c)

Element     Formula Type                      Distance
Fire        PA(2), MA(1), Faith(1)            Melee(3), Ranged(1)
Ice         PA(1), MA(1), PA/SP(1), Faith(1)  Melee(2), Ranged(2)
Lightning   MA(2), PA/SP(1), Faith(1)         Melee(2), Ranged(2)
Water       PA(1), MA(1), WP(1)               Melee(3)
Wind        PA(1), PA/SP(3), WP(1)            Melee(4), Ranged(1)
Earth       PA(2), PA/SP(1)                   Melee(3)
Dark        PA(1), WP(1)                      Melee(2)
Holy        PA(2), MA(1), PA/SP(1)            Melee(3), Ranged(1)



Fire
Phoenix Blade, Asura Knife, Flame Rod, Blaze Gun
Ice
Ice Brand, Ice Rod, Glacier Gun, Ice Bow
Lightning
Thunder Rod, Mace of Zeus, Blast Gun, Lightning Bow
Water
Coral Sword, Aspergillum, Whale Whisker
Wind
Air Knife, Iga Knife, Heaven's Cloud, Spiked Fuuton, Windslash Bow
Earth
Koga Knife, Kikuichimonji, Giant Axe
Dark
Koutestsu, Sadists whip
Holy
Excalibur, White Staff, Silver Bow, Holy Lance
All (not in table)

Rainbow Staff


The idea of having Lightning on Elemental could work but I think 'Enemy Only' should be removed too. Not like friendly fire happens often with that anyway. If that's really an issue, Shields could get a status immunity to whatever they absorb (e.g. Mythril Shield gets Immune: Petrify to cancel the Petrify procs from Local Quake). As for weapons, well the Dragon Breath proc spears could actually have their respective elements. Maybe something like the Ninja Edge could be Lightning elemental too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on April 05, 2015, 10:48:17 am
There are no elementals that look lightning based. Besides Geomancy is supposed to be mainly earth/water/wind elemental. Cool list by the way. Will steal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 06, 2015, 05:10:25 am
(Yes, kudos on compiling the list White Knight Wiegraf, though Rainbow Staff isn't All-elemental still. It hasn't been for years. FFMaster just keeps forgetting to change it.)

You could easily replace Sinkhole('s animation) with a Lightning-based Geomancy if you wanted to. Like a "Bolt from the Blue" or something...even though that's already what, well, Bolt | Thunder is.

That said, I wouldn't do that, personally because I don't think that it's worth it to change Geomancer's skill set back to non-discriminating, especially just for the sake of elemental absorption. Even if it was non-discriminating and every Elemental was, well, actually elemental, trying to use Geomancer skill set to add elemental absorption is both at once unreliable and heavily skewed in Earth's favor when Earth, as easy as it can be to avoid, doesn't need any more help than it already has; Earth probably still won't need help even after-slash-if Quake and Earth Slash get the nerf they deserve.

That said, Lightning absorption for physical units should pick by next version since the three currently semi-unusable Breath-proc Spears should be becoming the elements of their respective Breaths and Lancers should finally be getting access back to Robes, meaning they'll all be boosted by Black Robe. Of course, everything that's final is up to FFMaster, but there's really no reason to do at least for that Lancers since right now they're not even the best users of Jump, especially with Quickening still unfortunately around, and most of the Spears aren't worth using outside of Javelin and maybe Obelisk.

*stops there before he goes off on a tangent about the horrible skill that is Quickening again*

As for (absolute) equality, that's difficult if not impossible to do in general. Even with all the free space, you'd have to use up a lot of space on what's likely to end up relatively stale and same-y abilities that probably still wouldn't be actually equal due to their interaction with the various differing equipment, unless you want to go out of your way to make a lot of those the same too.

Still, it would be nice to have another Immune: Blind accessory and another physical weapon for both Lightning and Dark and perhaps Holy. That maybe an AoE Holy magickal skill that can actually be absorbed since Holy is literally the only element lacking that now, which is tad unfair even if Holy the spell and Silver Bow could stand be weakened just a tad (then again, so could Phoenix Blade, Lightning Bow and Ice Bow arguably).

Shrug.

In the meanwhile, despite the "struggle" of it, Lightning Grand Cross users aren't as horribly off as Holy and especially Dark Grand Cross Users overall at least. No reason to not try to make a Lightning absorb team just to see what it's current limitations are, Rouroni Elmdor.



Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on April 02, 2015, 04:09:13 pmI was editing one of my teams just now, and figured there is no reason to choose Wizard as primary if you have a Lore/Black Magic unit. *snip*


Yeah, it's been that way for a while unfortunately....

That said, I agree with Otabo on this despite his (unfortunately understandable) distaste for mages. The problem is less "Scholars have equivalent stats to Wizards" by itself and more "Scholars have Wizard+ stats and have some of the quickest yet simultaneously most damaging spells in the game and have unavoidable map-wide elemental damage & recovery and potentially even preemptive revival through Mad Science." Not that you can't get away with using Wizard primary, but it's usually only that way if you're using a Fire, Ice, Lightning or Water absorb team and even then, Scholar can literally hit all of those elements except for Fire, so....

I think best case scenario, at least off the top of my head and not looking at stats beyond the ones you posted, would be to give Wizard +1 MA--so that it's equal to Bard--and at least +10 MP, even if this perhaps makes it more likely that the Tier 1 and Nether spells (need to) see a slight power drop; that might not even be necessary though. Meanwhile, besides fixing at least Quake, Tornado and--to a lesser degree--Bio 2, Scholar's stats could perhaps stay the same, though I wouldn't mind perhaps getting more HP and PA in exchange for less MP and maybe taking away its C-EV. With more HP, you could also maybe drop the MA, but then things start to get even more dubious....

Shrug. I'm also not sure what you would do help Summoner though despite acknowledging more and more that it does indeed have some noticeable issues....

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on April 02, 2015, 04:09:13 pmUndead blocks Regen/Poison:
I suppose that way could work. Based on another game, they also have immunity to 'Mind' spells as they are 'mindless' I guess. I think Berserk, Confusion, Charm and Sleep are the FFT equivalents. However that might make Undead more of a good status. And how would the AI handle this I wonder...


The A.I. would still perceive it as a negative status regardless of how many things it blocked if that's what you mean by "handle". Outside of explicitly changing the A.I. or the status in question, the best way to manipulate A.I. with regards to status I've found is changing the interactions between statuses with regards to cancellation of statuses. Having statuses become blocked by other statuses will just cause the A.I. to not use the status that's blocked, of course, which wouldn't really do much for its behavior since despite some of the A.I.'s other shortcomings it tends not waste time on actual 00% actions; virtual 00% actions in the form of non-productive, cyclic actions on the other hand.... Meanwhile, having status cancel each other will at the very least generally make the A.I. more proactive with regards to using "counter" statuses on to cancel the particular status in question, with some exceptions, providing that the statuses in opposition are negative and positive rather than positive and positive or negative and negative.

That said, yes, those statuses would be the most equivalent to mental ones. I can't get behind making the Undead automatically Immune to any of them though, especially Charm; Confusion doesn't even exist anymore on top of that. Immune: Poison for Undead should be enough even if they became Immune: Regen, especially since Cursed Ring users would still be able to get Regen from P Bag or Light Robe I just realized. Hmmm...that's probably still worth making them Immune over, especially since it still helps reign in Masamune the ability's BS. Speaking of which....

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on April 02, 2015, 04:09:13 pmMasamune (ability):
Separate: Haste, Regen instead of Add: Haste, Regen. You're still guaranteed one of the two if my knowledge is right about 'Separate'.


You're not guaranteed status on Separate abilities, partly because Separate's default coding quarters accuracy and the occurrence infliction on everything, even the 100% formulas. I imagine that's part of the reason that nothing in Arena uses Separate.

That said, I wouldn't mind Masamune being nerfed. It's just a question of how given that when it was Random: Haste or Regen it sucked due to the A.I.'s obsession with Haste and currently it's overpowering with both guaranteed at 100%. Yet there are unfortunately very few alternatives due to the dearth of other positive status and the fact that making it not 100% would likely not solve very much.

So this too has been annoying conundrum for a while.


Quote from: silentkaster on April 02, 2015, 11:24:36 pm
I really think Regen (and Poison) being made instant would be a good change, especially if it does stay in White Magic.

*snip*

Also, I agree with Regen/Poison being made smart targeted.


I can agree with all of that. The two most primary reasons I was saying to move Regen and Poison to Time Mage were because a) Time Mage has no conventional healing for Regen to compete with unlike White Mage and b) Poison isn't good even on a "status" Wizard-slash-Black-Magic-user currently. Seriously, even alongside Frog and Death, it just gets in the way since you generally don't want Frogs to die now that they change back to humans--which needed to happen--upon death and Death is, well, Death, meaning that even with Poison, the A.I. is likely going to focus on using Death over Poison anyway. Even with Poison as back-up to those, it's currently too crappy to use compared to all the Regen everywhere and would only get in the way.

Making both of them Instant (on top of smart-targeting) would at least cover the latter two aspects and would make it so that Regen the spell is no longer so easily usurped by Nurse and Masamune (...and Light Robe and P Bag and Regenerator) given it could at least potentially hit your entire team with Regen in one-go. You could probably even go further make them both ignore Reflect and maybe boost up Regen the spell's accuracy, though perhaps these last two things could wait to see if making them Instant with smart-targeting alone makes them worth using. After all, there's no need to overly buff them off the bat as happened with Stop in this version.

Shrug. [/shrug]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on April 06, 2015, 07:05:12 pm
Probably not the first to say "Phoenix blade op" but yeah... Phoenix blade op. Man, I missed a lot. Simply removing slow for -1 SPD and making raise initial is a buff and a half. I mean it used to give you -4 SPD  and people used it anyway (always reraise was good, but so is 16 friggin WP) I suggest giving it immune: haste (if possible) if the WP isn't going down anytime soon. How is it not thief essential yet, or did ya'll miss that?

Also, why can quickening not be 100% chance?  I get it's redundant enough already, but its also really overpowered and easy to abuse. Mp is not all that hard to come by, and this would force people to make more careful design choices. Not sure if it would make some other abilities' priorities higher, but it was just a passing idea. I'm talking like 50%+speed or base 60%-75% like a dance. If it doesn't move down on the list of priorities then forget I mentioned anything. Would ultimately be beneficial to all if it were used like accumulate; preemptively.

@damned: holy vendetta, batman. Well I asked for it, but I agree, quickening doesn't do much for the actual fun of the game and its abuse can be downright obnoxious. I wouldn't mind if it was scrapped, but I wouldn't mind a nerf if it worked either. If it worked.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 06, 2015, 08:27:09 pm
(Always: Reraise was honestly the bigger-slash-biggest issue with the old Phoenix Blade; the really high 16 WP was incidental, though it didn't help issues with it obviously.)

If anything, then Phoenix Blade v2.0, while infinitely less obnoxious, is stronger than it was before overall since now it's elemental and can thus be boosted by elemental enhancing things. FFMaster at least preemptively prevented it from being outright broken in that regard, however, by both weakening Oil to no longer add Weak: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Water, Earth & Wind and changing Kaiser Plate to no longer Strengthen: Fire. Similarly, pretty much everyone concurred that -1 Speed is not nearly enough of a weakness, especially with Initial: Reraise on it--which is fine--and Quickening unfortunately still around--which is not fine.

With that as a segue, I've always said that Quickening was a dumb idea from the very beginning, even to FFMaster's face. Sure, it's FFMaster's game and what he ultimately wants goes, but it was extremely easy to tell that it was going to end up dominating the game and lo and behold, that's all it's done once Dokurider figured out how to manipulate the A.I. into using it. Part of the reason I just left for a year was because back towards the mid-to-end-life of 1.38, literally at least half of all teams just had two Quickening users with Cursed Ring. Such fun there.

Even with Cursed Ring's weakened revival, that's still a pretty dominating strategy because Quickening is that broken since it boosts the unfortunately most vital stat in the game after perhaps HP: Speed. Quickening breaks a bunch of things because of that: Knife & Ninja Knife & Longbow damage, Steal Heart, Item secondary, Jump, Cursed Ring, Masamune the ability & Regen and Haste statuses in general, Move-HP Up & Move-MP Up, Phoenix Blade v2.0, etc.

As it is, even with the sporadic activity of this thread, it's pretty telling that there was conspicuous silence on the last page after I asked what good does-slash-would keeping Quickening around actually do for the game, especially since I'm open to listening about why it should stay around if argument is something that just says "it's not broken" and leaves it at that. Just nerfing its accuracy or giving it (lengthy) CT wouldn't change anything really unless you nerfed it so low or made that CT so high that it wasn't worth using, in which case it becomes just a waste of space like how Persuade used to be or how Bad Luck and pretty much all of Dance still is.

Quickening just needs to die. It might have been fine if Speed wasn't the sole factor to determining how quickly people get turns, but since Speed is...yeah. Honestly, if Quickening stays around into next version (which, again, is up to FFMaster's discretion ultimately), then I'm probably just going to stop participating in Arena outside of maybe recording videos for people if I can.

(To be fair to Quickening, I also think that Cheer Song and Slow Dance need to die because of Speed unfortunately being all-important even if both of those are currently worthless compared to Quickening. The skill set Dance as a whole needs an overhaul, really, since it's easily the worst skill set in all of Arena. Gods, it's so bad.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on April 07, 2015, 12:19:11 am
My thoughts are and still are that having an Always: Reraise item should also be Always: Poison, Immune: Regen. This would pretty much eliminate song and dance users, and basically force the Phoenix Blade user who got up to instantly heal. Not even Move-HP UP would be terribly useful and it would perhaps make the team more prone to sandbag loops. Perhaps with a speed reduction also? I'm not even a big fan of bringing an Always: Reraise item back to Arena but if it has to be there, then I think that would be an acceptable balance.

As far as Quickening goes, it's probably simply there due to Accumulate and Focus being abilities which also raise the PA and MA respectively. While I do use the ability, and while I use it on a lot of teams, I don't think that abolishing it would hurt, either. I would even go as far to say that Speed is generally the most important stat, more so than HP. So not being able to alter it easily would be fine with me. I don't agree with Slow Dance and Cheer Song being abolished though. These abilities are quirky and interesting. I think they'd see a lot more use if Quickening did die since the abilities themselves would actually mean something (not to mention that Cheer Song basically has a cap on the user...which currently can only be slightly extended by equipping 2 Masamune weapons.) However, in the absence of Quickening, I think these skills could use some more evaluation before being put to bed.

If Quickening is meant to stay around another version, I'd at least like to propose it move to a skillset that would make it difficult to use. For example, Time Magic or Black Magic. Specifically, a unit would have to want Quickening and nothing else from the skillset. While I realize this isn't the "best" option, and there would still be people who created strong units with Quickening, at the very least we won't have a ton of Charming Undead quickening users running around (unless they specifically have gone with that set up.) After all, Quickening is innate to the fastest class in the game so moving it would actually be of some benefit and make it harder to access. Of course, I don't really "like" this idea that much, but if Quickening has to stay, I feel it would be at least an acceptable compromise.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 07, 2015, 06:09:18 am
(For the record, I'm completely in favor of there never again being an Always: Reraise piece of equipment--Cursed Ring is more than enough. We tried it. It was horrible, especially for people recording. So it is gone now. There. Done.

Making it have Always: Poison would just drag out matches with it even more since then the A.I. would spend even more time healing after it got up than usual since Reraise, as somewhat problematic as it is, always brings you back in Critical anyway.)

I guess I'd be...reluctantly fine with Cheer Song and Slow Dance getting to stick around another version so long as it means that Quickening dies in the (stellar) fire it's deserved to die in ever since it was conceived. It's just that it seems rather obvious that without Quickening around to rein it in, Slow Dance becomes the new broken ability since even with its abysmal hit rate, losing just one point of Speed is actually pretty damn crippling. That Raven's sadistic Slow Dance team basically steamrolled every non-Quickening team before Quickening started to show up on literally every other team wasn't just due to how dumb Phoenix Blade v1.0 was.

The fact that Slow Dance hits every enemy on the map regardless of distance or condition, can be mimicked and only costs 5 MP makes that even more apparent. There's no real reason to try it out in my opinion, especially when Dance needs to be completely overhauled anyway and especially since Slow Dance becoming feasible would mean that Last Dance, one of the few Dances (barely) actually worth using would become obsolete.

Honestly, Quickening is the only reason that Slow Dance isn't dominating the metagame right now since a 100% chance of +1 Speed obviously trumps a 25% chance of -1 Speed. Without Quickening to hold Slow Dance back, things would get...ugly, quickly. Quickening is still a broken idea with the simple way Speed currently works, but at least it only affects the user, Mimic aside. If Slow Dance started to be used though, matches would regularly become stall fests that last at least 30+ mins since you have to build defensively to maximize Slow Dance's potential, which people will do just like how they use Quickening now. Not that I'm against defensive teams (obviously), but it just seems clearly lose-lose to keep it around, especially as far as recording matches is concerned.

On the other hand, I suppose eliminating Cheer Song partly because of its parity to Slow Dance is a tad unfair given Cheer Song isn't actually broken (or even all that good in most instances). Granted, it could turn out to be overpowering with Mimic perhaps, but given that the A.I. is (un)fortunately really dumb about restarting Songs and Dances when it shouldn't, the user will generally never finish another Cheer Song once they hit 13 Speed or higher anyway. So Cheer Song is technically "fine" if "suspicious".

Still, I ultimately think the best general practice for any type of balance, at least while Speed is the overly simple and all-powerful stat it unfortunately is, would be to have there be no permanent Speed-affecting abilities. I could arguably go even further and argue that there shouldn't be any stat-affecting abilities at all, but a) Xifanie's stat limiting hack (that I still have yet to see anyone use for some reason) exists to cap that if it ever becomes a legitimate problem and b) the A.I. is pretty dumb about lowering the appropriate stat even when given only that ability, otherwise Power Ruin, Magic Ruin, Polka Polka and Disillusion would be as overpowering as they "should" be rather than never used. Even as potentially powerful as Accumulate, Focus, Battle Song and Magic Song can be, those still aren't outright having you take double and triple turns just because you used them a few times, which is really one of the chief problems with permanent Speed alteration.

So to me, Cheer Song becoming a Haste-adding ability and Slow Dance becoming a Slow-adding ability seems for the best since a) they're both automatically still useful in these forms without becoming automatically overpowering, b) they break Time Magic's monopoly on party-wide Haste and Slow abilities and c) Nameless Dance at least gets a boost even if it doesn't change further (though it should) since without Slow it ironically becomes more reliable in what it would cause; of course, Random Add: Blind, Silence or Oil is still kind of crappy, so...yeah, that problem would still need to change.


TL;DR: Slow Dance without Quickening to "balance" (read: overpower) it would become a just-as-bad-if-not-worse problem; Cheer Song is largely just a casualty to Quickening and Slow Dance thus needing to die. Making Slow Dance and Cheer Song Add: Slow and Add: Haste respectively seems like the best solution honestly.

Meanwhile, Quickening just needs to die due to the way that Speed works currently. [/umpteenth time]
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 07, 2015, 02:51:26 pm
Raven's team (Y U SO DERP) was from a completely different era than old Phoenix Blade. Neither of those existed at the same time. Raven's team was so effective because damage was complete garbage in Arena back then (largely because you were as loud as ever and love nerfbatting everything). As overall damage increased / games got more dynamic, Y U SO DERP's performance fell. It could no longer count on one Polka Polka/Disillusion user to reduce damage, especially with AI stupidity rotating dances / using the wrong dance. The enemy team also losing the occasional Speed point did not cripple the enemy team either, as good teams were still able to apply pressure and ultimately drive Y U SO DERP to a loss. You are exaggerating how much of an impact losing one point of Speed has. Is it bad for that team? Obviously yes. "Damn crippling?" No. At 2 Speed points, on a slow character, sure. But not one. Especially not with Slow Dance, which is 1. slow, and 2. not very reliable. Enemy team losing speed is good if you can reliably control the team with 3 characters against the enemy team's 4. I think that's pretty darn hard to do. I guess you can try it with Mimes, which could work, but they're also in a weird spot cause of meh stats.

Slow Dance and Last Dance fulfill different roles / you build differently according to the dance. Slow Dance is much better suited for the grindy, defensive team. Last Dance is better for a more tempo-y/aggro-y strategy. Slow Dance doesn't make sense for an aggressive strategy cause you're not going to feel the random speed point the enemy team loses, and you're also down a character delivering the beatdown. Last Dance isn't great for a defensive team because it doesn't reliably slow them down, and it's not a permanent change to make your life easier. They do not obsolete each other or make each other redundant in any way.

Also, people put Quickening on both defensive units and offensive units. Defensive units are probably built to be tankier, sure. But offensive units being built tanky? I guess if you count Cursed Ring (you're the one assuming Quickening + Cursed Ring is default setup) as being tanky, which I can see given that they get up faster with more speed and etc. Thieves or Ninjas and tanky don't really match in my mind, though. Also, with these offensive Quickening users, you typically see one, maybe two uses of Quickening, and that's it. Hard to say how much impact those speed points have, especially since it's early, so after the initial Quickening, the rate at which the unit gets it turns is basically constant. 3-4+ Quickenings from offensive unit usually involves Crystals, and if that team is in a winning position, basically irrelevant (cause it's win-more). If that team is losing, then it gets interesting, cause if they win then you can probably say that Quickening played a major factor.

~2 uses of Quickening only gets double turns 1. occasionally, over time, when CT lines up, 2. from units already built to be fast via Speed boosting gear, and 3. only relative to slower units. The fast units (which most teams have) will still be going toe-to-toe in terms of rate of turns.

If Arena does indeed turn into a heavy Slow Dance meta (which I doubt), the only real stall-fests that could emerge are Slow Dance vs Slow Dance. Slow Dance vs not-Slow Dance is interesting because it's unclear which team will prevail (unless one team is clearly inferior). The difference is when the round ends relative to the climax - if aggro wins, it's soon. If Slow Dance wins, it takes a while. Slow Dance vs Slow Dance is the only stall-fest because both teams are going to somehow try to control each other, but then both sides are also getting slower, and it's unclear how they'd win unless it's through Death Sentence... which is probably blocked by at least one unit on each side. =/

Nameless Dance is a perfectly usable dance. Slow? Unconditionally strong. Blind? Conditionally strong, but holy shit it's a problem when it lands on the right unit. Same for Silence, though most people (except me, probably) guard against Silence on relevant units. Oil is the weakest of the four statuses Nameless can inflict, but is still conditionally strong. Even if your team can't take advantage of Oil (though you should try if you're using Nameless Dance), it can randomly disrupt enemy ele-absorb synergies.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 07, 2015, 08:33:40 pm
I'll answer these in reverse and I'll try to be brief (for me) since my arms still heard due to my "let's carry 50 pounds of dirt" idiocy yesterday. I'll probably fail though, so spoilers here too:


Sure, it's "usable", especially where Dance sucking is concerned since even with all of its problems, it's still more usable than at least Polka Polka, Disillusion and Wiznaibus without Mimes backing it up. No, the problem with Nameless Dance right now is threefold: it's hideously unreliable, none of its statuses have any type of synergy and Oil's (necessary) weakening didn't do it any favors. As much as we've all derided Nameless Song for being "crappy", it's at least consistent in the sense that it will most likely actively help your team regards of what positive status.

Meanwhile, Nameless Dance rarely helps unless you get lucky enough for the 12.5% chance of Slow to hit two or more units, which Slow 2 currently does way reliably even on 40 Faith units. Blind doesn't matter against non-physical attackers and half of the physical attackers that exist tend to be Immune: Blind between the popularity of Grand Cross and Chakra Band. Silence, meanwhile, is basically blocked by every single class it actually would matter against save for Mediators, so it might as well not be on there. And Oil has no purpose except hampering the opponent's elemental absorption--unless it's Holy or Dark--and potentially bolstering your own...if it hits. Even if it does, Oil gets used in a single use, meaning you're forced to "rely" on a 12.5% chance of reapplying it every time you actually need it.

That said, it's pretty telling that even weakened, Oil is still pretty much only reason why I've even bothered using Nameless Dance now despite that since Nameless Dance's sole saving grace is that it's only non-elemental multi-target applier of Oil status. If the A.I. still intentionally cast Fire or Salamander on the enemy in an attempt to cause Oil on them at least some of the time, then I personally would never use Nameless Dance at all since basically you have to hope for a 12.5% of getting what would actually be relevant to help your team (provided your target isn't likely immune or capable of getting cured of it). Only Bad Luck, which we all agree is horrible, is worse about that.


Yeah, the Slow Dance vs. Slow Dance thing is what I fear the most, especially for people recording. That said, I am actually willing to keep Slow Dance and Cheer Song for another version so long as Quickening dies--I was just explaining why I don't expect it to end well if they do get to stay. I will readily admit that the "-1 Speed is damn crippling" was perhaps hyperbole to a degree, but even just -1 Speed of difference is at least significant, especially with the amount of Haste and Slow flying around.


Uh...when did I said anything about "tankiness" with regards to Quickening? I honestly don't recall doing that; I'll do so at the end of this now, but only because that's what Wiz's team is and thus the best way to describe it. Also, are you really trying to tell me that Cursed Ring + Quickening isn't the most commonly used Quickening set-up? Really? Because I'd honestly be fascinated to hear what you think it is, especially given how the latter half of 1.38 ended up and how even with the nerf to Cursed Ring, that's still a pretty common problem.

Also, I think your underestimating just how quickly units get double turns with even just 1 or 2 Quickenings, especially since it's on the class that already has the fastest speed. You also tend to assume that 1 or 2 Quickenings is all the A.I. ever gets off even though it's usually more than that, which is the chief problem: Quickening is clearly a run-away effect, especially with Cursed Ring and Reraise around to mitigate the sole potential downside of "you Crystallize quickly if you die".


I suppose. My chief problem with Last Dance is still just how easy it is for to not matter most of the time given its CT is 10. So basically any unit with 10 Speed or more, which is an extremely easy benchmark to hit, tends to not really care much about being hit about it unless they were already losing. Shrug. It just seems like a huge win-more at best right now and without Quickening around, I've explained why I think Slow Dance would overtake it and make essentially obsolete.


I'm aware of why Raven's team was so good and I wasn't trying to attribute it solely to Slow Dance. I was merely stating that Slow Dance was a factor even though Quickening did exist, which was meant to imply that a Slow Dance without Quickening to "balance" it would be even stronger even without Phoenix Blade v1.0 around. I mean, it's not like you can't still build pretty tanky units if you wanted to even if damage has generally gotten "better", for lack of a better word. Otherwise Wiz's tanky Quickening team wouldn't have still worked just last version.



Also, for the record, if Mimes are going to stick around, then as much as I have come to dislike them, I'll agree that they need some type of stat-boost, though it may be dependent upon certain things like no longer being able to Mimic everything. Not like they do that consistently anyway....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 07, 2015, 11:50:02 pm
Quickening + Cursed Ring is only prevalent on Thieves. Otherwise there's a pretty good mix! Quickening Monks and Quickening Itembots are also really popular, and those don't use Cursed Ring.

Quote from: The Damned
If Slow Dance started to be used though, matches would regularly become stall fests that last at least 30+ mins since you have to build defensively to maximize Slow Dance's potential, which people will do just like how they use Quickening now. (italics mine)


I will admit that I haven't been watching videos, but my experience with Quickening is that AI gets its one or two uses off, then it's action time and they only use it again when in critical to run away, basically.
Perhaps I am indeed underestimating double-turn frequency, but again, keep in mind that fast units on enemy teams can keep up, so overall number of actions on both sides will be about equal.

I understand that it's unreliable. But 1. nothing time (in battle) can't fix, and 2. I think Blind immunity is less common than you think it is. Cursed Ring Quickening Thieves? Not immune to blind. Grand Cross? Only 13 units in the last page of team submissions (maybe a few more - I opened 90+% of team spoilers). Chakra Band? Ok, there were 30 units, but Monks have Repeating Fist anyway. Also, not all the Monks were smashy-smashy Monks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 08, 2015, 01:45:38 am
Hmmm...I see.

As far as Quickening goes, this is an issue which I've long resigned myself on as far as the fact that you and I will likely never see eye-to-eye on it, which is more than fine, especially since it's ultimately not up to either of us anyway. As such, I'm not going force you to waste your free time catching up on videos that you'll inevitably interpret differently--again, not a bad thing--even if I could, especially since you've been recording videos unlike I have lately. So I'll just say that I continue to disagree with you about Quickening, but now I at least understand better how you're interpreting it now, so thanks for the responses.

As for Nameless Dance, the Blind factor does indeed affect Cursed Quickening Thieves, but good luck a) getting that to hit in the first place, b) getting it to stick considering how common Cancel: Blind is (even if, yes, the A.I. kind of stupid about healing Blind) and c) reapplying Blind after said Thieves inevitably get back up since Blind wears on death (as it should). I'm not saying that Blind can't ever be useful, just like I wouldn't say Silence outright can't ever be useful even though I'd readily argue that Silence is the least useful status in all of Arena (which is "fine" given all the other issues mages have). I'm merely saying that Nameless Dance can easily be improved without having to go back to its easy mode vanilla version that could Add: Frog among other things.

Let me go about this another way: Do you honestly think that Nameless Dance is at all coherent as it is now? My chief issue with it, beyond the utter unreliability, is that it's currently too much of a hodgepodge move, which is the same problem that Bad Luck has, only worse (especially now that it can't instantly kill). The only universally threatening aspect of it is Slow and it's literally the worst way to add Slow in the entire game. Maybe if it was Separate then the abysmally low hit rate would be acceptable, but a 50% chance to miss even before a mere 12.5% chance to get the status you want? Gross.

I just want Dance to be usable, is all. Right now, save for Witch Hunt and maybe Wiznaibus and Last Dance with Mimes, it really isn't. While there will unfortunately be no real saving Polka Polka and Disillusion as far as the A.I. is concerned, Nameless Dance seems like it could be saved while Slow Dance will automatically get a (huge) buff once Quickening dies. I'm just trying to see how other people think it could be improved since I obviously have my own ideas on the matter.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on April 08, 2015, 08:30:55 am
Does short charge work on dance? Its something I've been meaning to try, basically increasing the effectiveness by 100%, 200% with mime. If this is indeed possible, it could make up the entire reason why ffmaster is reluctant to buff them, though it would be difficult to make pa buffing worth it and keep short charge manageable. The miming alone is becoming a little unmanageable, but I don't understand the hatred towards dancers, other than what bard offers class-wise is simply better. You can have any one of those abilities on a nasty bloodsword otabo dancer and make that work VERY well. I am also seeing success with one of my new teams using nameless dance alone, but the witch hunt works too. They work with a distance to reliability as a little strategy within the main strategy, on large maps you WILL get something nasty and at least waste turns curing it, if you have the mana. Not that I'm against buffing dancers, but I would do so with extreme caution. I will break it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 08, 2015, 09:17:07 am
Short charge does not affect Song or Dance. The reason I think it is that song and dance are performances whereas spells are casting. Yea its weird considering they cost MP but Maybe if Short Charge wa buffed to the point where it does shorten the time needed to song and dance that would in theory make it more useful. But again that's whenever FFM comes back from the grave since he hasn't been around
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 08, 2015, 08:02:30 pm
Yeah, Short Charge doesn't work on anything that uses the "Persevere" function you can toggle on and off in FFTPatcher that causes "Performing" status in the first place. It's been like that since vanilla and, in my opinion, it really shouldn't change, at least so long as Mimes can mimic Songs and Dances. Even if Mimes could no longer mimic that or other map-wide abilities like Lore, I'd be...reluctant to back that.


Quote from: Rouroni Elmdor on April 08, 2015, 08:30:55 am*snip*
The miming alone is becoming a little unmanageable, but I don't understand the hatred towards dancers, other than what bard offers class-wise is simply better. *snip*


You misunderstand. No one, including myself, is "hating on" Dancers. We're--well, I'm--"hating on" Dance, their skill set. Dancer is great. They are one of the most threatening physical units in the game and largely make physical abilities worth having on female units even though their PA doesn't exceed a male Monk's. Even with Cloths being "meh" and generally not used, Dancers have generally good equipment that allows for a lot of usable variation, i.e. using Blood Sword with Two Hands and Salty Rage. This even though their skill set is horrible.

Dance on the other hand, as I've been explaining above, "blows" for lack of a better, succinct word. It's literally the worst skill set in the game. Outside of Witch Hunt, which gets outright beaten by Absorb MP and MP Restore and generally can't keep up with Half of MP or Move MP-Up, Dance generally can't do anything without Mimes backing it up, which both hampers Mimes and Dance's usability. Nameless Dance is usable...if you're really lucky, including being lucky to the point of not fighting one of the many teams that blocks Blind or Silence or have access to Haste to counteract Slow. At present, Nameless Dance's only real use is screwing over non-Dark, non-Holy elemental absorb teams that don't block Oil from a possibly safe distance, which is useful. It's just really unreliable at that, especially compared to Spell Edge and Hawk's Eye 100% Add: Oil infliction rates, especially since Spell Edge tends to come with auto-Two Swords and Hawk's Eye tends to come with far range; I'm not even counting the further competition from Fire the spell and Salamander recently increased 50% Oil since the A.I. won't use that intentionally if the enemy absorbs Fire-elemental.

Meanwhile, as said above, Slow Dance and Last Dance are currently also "usable". It's just that Slow Dance flat out loses to Quickening, which is freaking everywhere unless you're masochistic enough like myself to not use it on principle or just can't fit it on your team (or tire of using it since it adds literally nothing to the game [but problems]). Last Dance is fine...so long as your enemy doesn't break the really easy barrier of an effective 10 Speed, which means Quickening undermines that one too.

Wiznaibus, Polka Polka and Disillusion are among the worst skills in the game currently though, even if the latter two are more just because the A.I. is (un)fortunately too stupid to use stat-drops correctly. This is basically the same reason that Power Ruin and Mind Ruin are "bad" even though they would be absolutely overpowered in the hands of a player. The fact that Battle Song and Magic Song's accuracy got needlessly buffed while Polka Polka and Disillusion's accuracy was simultaneously nerfed two or three versions back only adds insult to injury, especially since the Song are much easier to build around even before Mimes are added to a team.

As for Wiznaibus, it's generally just crap unless you have two Mimes backing it up and either another Dancer or a Lore user and even then it still loses to Auto-Potion, Damage Split, all Save reactions and a bunch of other things unless your opponent gets really, really unlucky or maybe if you're on a really, really long map like Zeklaus. Even with that, it still generally loses out to quad Lore teams.

So when your "best" skills are an MP-damaging ability that tends to lose to units that actually want to use MP and two of the most unreliable skills in the game that have somewhat ubiquitous counters, yeah, Dance is bad as it currently is. Dancer, however, is still quite good class oddly. So, yeah, I'm not hating on Dancer; Dance, meanwhile, totally deserves the hate I've been giving it for several versions since the only buff it's gotten recently was the slight boost to Last Dance that CT5Holy asked for and which I reluctantly backed--I would have backed it harder if not for Mimes.

(For the record, I'd count Bad Luck as the absolute worst skill in the game currently. Holy Hades that thing is atrocious; I'm not sure why it got nerfed since it was barely usable in 1.38 and literally every other Steal ability was more deserving of being weakened or removed.

Tsumazuku, even though the A.I. actually uses it now, is a close second though given that it's vastly inferior to Kagesougi and utterly self-defeating when it is used most of the time as Reraise doesn't get removed before death if the target dies.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on April 09, 2015, 01:09:36 am
Since I have a few minutes to sit down and respond, I firstly want to talk about Dance. First, I would never want to see Dance affected by Short Charge. Two CT Witch Hunts? Five CT Slow/Last Dances? No thank you. About the only thing it might do is make the ability "Cheer Song" worth using and like The Damned, I too am wary about even that skill in general.

However, I do have to say that I don't think Dance is the least useful skillset, even in its current form. Dance is simply much more situational based on the opponent you're facing. In contrast, Song is based on how you build your team. For example, "Battle Song" is generally placed on a team where at least two or more units benefit from the additional PA they are gaining. It would be a highly questionable move, for instance, to have Battle Song on a team with four mages, none of whom have a weapon or secondary skillset based on PA. So Song can build around your team without caring who the opponent is.

However, Dance is heavily dependent on the opponent. Against that same mage team, Polka Polka would be pretty much worthless. However, Disillusion could be very relevant.

There are some ways you could do it though. A team that uses mostly high Brave units and mostly low Faith units would benefit, in general, more from Polka Polka than Disillusion simply because they'd be more apt to take damage from physical attacks. Still though, units like two handed staff wielders and or High Brave Harp users, to name a couple, wouldn't be hampered by that. So, these skills are certainly situational, and perhaps, would be more effective being placed on two units on the same team (one on each unit.)

That being said, Witch Hunt, Wiznaibus, Last Dance and Slow Dance are much less situational.
Quote from: CT5Holy on April 07, 2015, 02:51:26 pm
You are exaggerating how much of an impact losing one point of Speed has. Is it bad for that team? Obviously yes. "Damn crippling?" No. At 2 Speed points, on a slow character, sure. But not one. Especially not with Slow Dance, which is 1. slow, and 2. not very reliable. Enemy team losing speed is good if you can reliably control the team with 3 characters against the enemy team's 4. I think that's pretty darn hard to do.


It depends on the unit that lost the point of speed, which you did say. However, an 8 speed unit losing one point of speed also means that Haste, an ability that I am guessing at least 75% of teams carry in some form, only brings the unit back up to 8 speed. Perhaps a strong attack mage or a Raise 2 user might not suffer too badly, but an item bot or even a unit that uses a concentrated Battle Axe would severely be effected (Yes, this does raise the question of why you would make these units 8 speed in the first place, but I digress...)

Another point is that it sounds like you are assuming that the Slow Dance user is doing only that...using Slow Dance. While this is probably the most common strategy seen with that skill, it's not the only one. Even I had it on a Dancer recently (I changed the team drastically and got rid of the Dancer but still) but her main purpose was to Southern Cross with Katar, not use Slow Dance. She simply had it on her in case she went into critical (although she had Move-HP UP it could potentially take her two turns to come back in the fight) or on large maps where she could possibly get in a couple dances. So it may not necessarily be a "3 on 4" match up. It may simply be a back up skill, or the Slow Dance user could be a support unit, or something else.

Quote from: The Damned on April 08, 2015, 08:02:30 pm

Dance on the other hand, as I've been explaining above, "blows" for lack of a better, succinct word. It's literally the worst skill set in the game. Outside of Witch Hunt, which gets outright beaten by Absorb MP and MP Restore and generally can't keep up with Half of MP or Move MP-UP


Well, Move-MP UP is okay, but it doesn't always work. Even a Dancer with just base PA does 17 MP damage every 4 ticks. Let's take a White Magic Paladin with Cross Helmet and Diamond Armor (Not terribly uncommon). While Move-MP UP would normally be enough to sustain his/her most likely skills of Raise and Esuna, (I'll even say Raise 2 could would generally be covered by this combo, though more risky), against Witch Hunt, Move-MP UP would never be enough against a Dancer using just witch hunt. If the Dancer did other things besides just Witch Hunt, then maybe the Paladin would eventually recover. But the AI loves to use Witch Hunt, even above many other dances (perhaps possibly except Wiznaibus), so every time the Paladin would get some MP back, the dancer would switch back (again, unless she was already in the action doing other things where Witch Hunt was a lower priority for the AI.)

Against very high MP mages, Witch Hunt may seem pretty futile, but even still, continued use of it will still effect them eventually. This is especially the case if paired with a Mime or an additional Witch Hunt user. It also heavily hurts those lower MP units using skills like Quickening or Song. Half of MP is usually used on units that either can't recover MP or have low MP to begin with, and Witch Hunt definitely affects units like that.

In fact, Absorb MP is the only sure-fire counter to Witch Hunt. Even a Max-MP Summoner with 10 Speed (which just sounds like an atrocious idea) would slowly lose over time to continued Witch Hunts (assuming the Witch Hunt user did not run out of MP, and assuming a Dancer's base PA.) MP Restore does not trigger on Witch Hunt (Or at least I haven't seen it do so), and Absorb MP is not guaranteed either. I would hate to see Witch Hunt in play, actually, without Absorb MP. Also, most MP dependent users only use Absorb MP in situations where due to JP restrictions or other members of the team using the Movement ability simply can't use Move-MP UP. Absorb MP has its own problem in the fact that it relies on having skills that use MP hit the Absorb MP user. So while it counters Witch Hunt, it still has its own issues, and we've all seen the Absorb MP/MP Restore mages run out of MP in battle and the consequences of that.

Another benefit of Witch Hunt is that it can prevent skills like Carbunkle and Angel Song from restoring MP due to the fact that those skills cost MP themselves. Paired with a Mime, it can also waste enemy turns since the AI sometimes won't realize the Mime will mimic With Hunt and therefore, deplete the MP they were going to use for their skill.

Wiznaibus is harder to place, but can be useful against the right team. Again, this is dependent on the team that you're facing. Auto Potion is a super hard counter to Wiznaibus (in fact, Wiznaibus helps these units more often than not), but only two units can use this reaction on a team so it may still hurt the other units.

Finally, Last Dance resetting enemy CT counts can more randomly be useful depending on how CT lines up. I think it's much better than Last Song (which can't be reliably mimicked). While you can build your own CT around the Last Song user to create a potential double turn pretty quick in the match, it requires a specific build and all units to be a certain speed while the Last Song user should be at 10 speed or below (so that he won't interrupt himself.) However, Last Dance can actually capitalize for a slower team by allowing a slower team to double turn a faster one, potentially. Generally, slower teams have more power behind them, so a double turn can be huge.

If Nameless Dance sticks around, I would like to see Don't Move, Charm, and possibly Don't Act added to it. I know...very strong statuses and it would really be very strong. However, with Chakra Band sticking around, Charm and Don't Act wouldn't even affect those units. Also, and this is more of a personal, selfish reason, I'm just sick of seeing every Mage out there with Silence protection. Silence is such a joke since nearly every mage protects against it in Arena, and there are so many GOOD ways to do so. I'd like to see the "Immune: Silence" items get nerfed, and Defense Ring have Immune: Silence removed (while adding in a different immunity)...or at the very least the Elemental Absorbs removed. At least by adding these to Nameless Dance, there would be a reason for a mage to use something like N-Kai Armlet or Wizard Mantle regularly. I know...this is kind of extreme what I'm suggesting but seriously...Silence protection is just so prevalent and easily accessible in Arena and it has made that status almost obsolete in my opinion.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on April 09, 2015, 04:39:13 am

There was a suggestion to extend Silence status to war cries, sword releases and stuff that normally uses quotes (Yell, Southern Cross, Earth Slash as examples). I won't go indepth but I think it's a nice idea.

Anyway, quick Dance suggestions. Similar suggestions for Sing but the other way around.

Witch Hunt:
0 MP cost

Slow Dance:
Random: Don't Move, Slow. Lower the CT a bit.

Polka Polka:
-1 PA/MA. If it can be random, -1 SP could be added. At 50% hit rate I think it would be fair and wouldn't land too often.

Disillusion:
Add: Cursed. Prevents some/all positive status, and cancels them in the process. (I saw that status idea somewhere else but it was completely coincidental.)

Nameless Dance:
Loses Slow since Slow Dance gets it. Maybe replaced with Don't Act

Last Dance:
Mimic disabled

It might just be me, but I'd like to see some non-map abilities on Bards and Dancers. Like a spell but it keeps following a target around and loop.


I have this bad habit of trying to make my posts as nice as possible before posting them but never actually making it to the "final product", so I end up barely posting anything.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on April 09, 2015, 12:51:38 pm
Changing an ability just to counter another isn't balancing so I don't agree with the Witch Hunt or Last Dance suggestions. Especially the "mimic disabled" nerf.

Slow and Last Dance I'm still all for balancing it with Last/cheer Song.
The CT based debuffs are Slow, Stop and CT00 while there are only two CT based buffs, Haste and Quick(CT100). You can't really balance these without also thinking about quickening. If it's not in the next patch, then there's no need to have any SP altering from performances either.

I still go to my first suggestion from last year on making a single speed based song where you have a chance at either Slow, 00CT, and for Sing, Quick or Haste. If adding in CT +/- 25 33, or 50 at the most, then that could also be added.

Pretty sure adding Don't Act, Petrify or Stop to Nameless Dance would be broken. If it's possible to add a Dispel Magic effect to it would be a great addition to the current debuffs it has. This way it has a way to counter Nameless song without adding Death Sentence or anything extremely debilitating. 

-MA/PA performances are fine as they are now. No one uses them but that's not a reason to change them.

Genji Shield, Gold Armor are so far the only things actually wrong with 139 right?

I'll add I don't think quickening needs to be removed. The AI can't even use it if they have other MP using abilities. If it is removed I'd like more SP boosting equipment and Mime getting 9 base SP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 09, 2015, 01:47:59 pm
You are missing angel ring since that is also immune to dead but not death sentence
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on April 09, 2015, 02:57:04 pm
Angel Ring isn't immune to DS? The master guide says it is. I've never seen any teams using angel ring cause DS problems.

Also Quake and Tornado need to be nerfed to 4-5 CT. If not a nerf to CT, change the MA multiplier because 9 is absurd. 4 CT and MAx8 would be perfect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 09, 2015, 03:10:18 pm
I can test angel ring then at a later point. If I am wrong then we can disregard angel ring as a problem
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 10, 2015, 01:17:10 am
(I'll comment on the newest Dance-related posts later.)

You might also want to check Choice Band and Chameleon Robe if you're testing for Immune: Death Sentence stuff, Barren, even though I think they're all actually working.


Quote from: Shintroy on April 09, 2015, 12:51:38 pm
*snip*

Genji Shield, Gold Armor are so far the only things actually wrong with 139 right?

I'll add I don't think quickening needs to be removed. The AI can't even use it if they have other MP using abilities. If it is removed I'd like more SP boosting equipment and Mime getting 9 base SP.


1. Chakra Band's bloated immunity count doesn't actually include Petrify like it "should" this time around, though FFMaster said he would fix that next version. I still say that Chakra Band and Headbands in general still need an overhaul. That said, besides that and the aforementioned two abilities, I don't think anything else is acting up, though it's of course always difficult to tell.

2. I'd totally be up for more +Speed equipment and Mime at least going up to 9 Speed if Quickening dies, especially since that would be the lesser evil and I already concurred with the sentiment that someone else expressed earlier of Genji Helm becoming +1 Speed instead of the currently useless "Initial: Berserk" it is now.

Quote from: Shintroy on April 09, 2015, 02:57:04 pmAlso Quake and Tornado need to be nerfed to 4-5 CT. If not a nerf to CT, change the MA multiplier because 9 is absurd. 4 CT and MAx8 would be perfect.


I also concur with this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 10, 2015, 06:13:23 am
I'll take your word for it Damned about the other items since the master's guide is accurate and I have ONLY seen death sentence not working with genji shield and gold armor. Whenever I do a poll for next tourney (which may be next month actually) We can decide what gimmick tournament we all want to do.

And volunteers to help would also be nice if someone is going to share the responsibility of uploading the videos on time. Like I really need people to be on board with this and not skip out at some point like previous hosts did. But that won't be for a while so stay tuned until then
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on April 12, 2015, 04:05:40 pm

(http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af336/behem0th/Angel%20Ring%20Arena_zpsktvph63f.png)

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 14, 2015, 01:53:10 am
(I'll still have to wait on commenting on the Dance thing, though I'll try to do it by the next time I post in here. I should probably also doing something else in the next post anyway, so it really can wait.)

Hunh. That's...weird, especially since we've seen constant confirmation that Angel Ring still is Immune: Blind/Darkness. Hmmm...I wonder if that is a consequence of the Item Attribute extension hack that FFMaster is using. Good eye regardless.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on May 22, 2015, 12:56:36 pm
I think Elemental should get just a slight boost to its formula. PA+4/2*MA sounds a bit better without making it too OP.

I love Geomancy and think it's an excellent skillset, it's just so hard to take advantage of the odd formula to maximize damage and still be able to make good use of a secondary skillset. It seems to max out at around ~120 damage (pre-compat of course) and that's on the high end using something like a bard with max ma gear and magic attack up and 108 gems. With this change to the formula, the damage won't be boosted too much but it should cap out a little higher around ~140 or so making it slightly more useful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on May 22, 2015, 01:30:20 pm
Gotta factor in Elemental being unevadable, adds status, hits enemies only and the reaction, Counter Flood. The low damage cap is just other wise we'd have some absurd geomancy builds going on. It'll be like Vanilla or 1.3 all over again.

I've gotten geomancy to do 200+ on a Geomancer by putting him on a Mime+Magic Song, Earth Absorb team. Stack some PA, Giant Axe, Diamond Armlet for earth absorb... You'll pass the equipment cap in just three songs while the rest of your team is throwing out Slow 2, Quake times two due to mimic.


If there anything that needs a nerf it's Ninjitsu's tons. Why do they do more damage to sleep units? I don't even think spellbreaker does that and that counts as a physical attack too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on May 28, 2015, 10:03:37 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on May 23, 2015, 11:22:26 pm


Stone Gun was definitely OP. 16x16  unevadable 6 range projectile? Bows were obsolete. Probably the best anti sandbag unit in the build in the game. Every team had a gunner. Pairing them up with shields too? 10 speed archers? I don't know about all that.

With Spell guns you have to now choose between setiemson and 108 Gems unless you make a mediator gunner.




I moved this discussion over here, but I completely disagree.

I just ran a couple of tests, and firstly, with Attack UP, only one of the 12s change to 16, not both. At 65 fury on every unit, the stone gun does 192 damage (which is exactly 12 X 16). Now, that's still a nice chunk of damage for an unevadable attack...

However, you know what is 16 WP, and can actually have its power manipulated? Gastrafitis. Also, with Attack UP, it blows the damage the Stone Gun does out of the water on either unit that can innately equip the Cross Bow. Evadable? Sure. But the Squire has Concentrate in his/her skillset, whereas any class that can equip a gun innately does not have Attack UP (or for that matter, overwhelm) in their skill set.

So what does that mean? Well, for starters, the power of a Gastrafitis can be manipulated by PA. So this means that any Squire/Archer equipping a Power Sleeve can easily match the power of the Stone Gun and with Concentrate, be almost identically effective (with the barely noticeable exception of Blind effecting the Crossbow but not the gun). Add more PA or build PA throughout the battle and the Gastrafitis starts to climb in power quickly well above the Stone Gun.

Oh, and let's not forget the fact that your unit starts out petrified. Depending on Map Selection, particularly in maps like End, or the more commonly used Grog Hill, this could be a permanent 3 X 4 at the start. At the very least, you lose a turn with essentially two units (the one that has to un-petrify the Stone gunner and the whole turn the stone gunner lost). This is fairly manageable on a large Map, a nuisance on a medium and could be outright devastating on a small map.

Also, you almost must use the item skillset. What abilities cure petrify? Soft, Stigma Magic, Esuna, and Refute. Stigma Magic may not work depending on the height panel, Esuna wastes even more time and depending on the map, is less likely to be used, and Refute is not accurate enough and could waste several turns just removing Petrify.

However, all the above is true, before you even factor in 2 hands and a reduced range. Was Stone Gun a bit OP before 1.39? Meh, I don't think so but some may argue it was. But with not one but both of those rules going into effect? It's totally easy to glance over Stone Gun for something that would work better. I think that maybe it should remain two hands but at least get the 6 range back. That would at least compensate a bit for the unit having to start off petrified. I mean...really? A 12 WP gun has to start off petrified? Eh...

In any case...back to the Spell Guns. They definitely needed some kind of nerf and I don't think I'd rag as much on those. Since these are based on faith, it's more not that they were OP but that casters in general kinda needed some kind of help. Nerfing spell guns was definitely some much needed help for them.

However, one big thing that Spell Gunners almost always carried was Kaiser Plate which at the time strengthened Fire/Ice/Lightning. Now, it strengthens Wind/Ice/Dark...which I suppose is still useful for the Glacier Gun but that would literally be the only Spell Gun it would help.

However, I'm all for keeping them two hands but bringing back the range I think would be okay. Another problem was that the Kaiser Plate was actually a decent Shield and provided some Magic Evade, which again, for casters was very bad and provided a definite advantage to the gunner (since the gunner was likely running 70 faith or more along with the caster). So taking the shield means no free strengthening (with the exception of the mediator/black robe) but still...I wouldn't be upset leaving them the way they are. However, the Stone Gun, I definitely think needs at least the ability to Equip Shields OR the 6 range back, and I still wouldn't be upset if it got both back.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on May 29, 2015, 11:42:55 am
I have almost no desire to use either spell or stone guns because of the nerfs. Spell guns were much needed to be nerfed though, but I agree with Silentkaster on maybe allowing the stone gun to be 6 range. I think with the equip shield it can lead to be a little bit OP still, depending on the build you choose. 6 range gives it something a little more desirable without really making it OP.


And I still think a small buff to elemental would be nice. Maybe even just PA+3/2*MA so you can make use of an odd PA point if you use an item like say Mystic Blade that gives the +1PA/MA which a lot of people run on geomancy focused builds. It's rounded down anyways so if you didn't have the odd PA point it wouldn't even make a difference in damage output (correct me here if I'm wrong).
Elemental/Counter Flood have been my favorite skill and reaction ability since Vanilla and I would like to see it be slightly more useful even if that means it only is doing ~20 more damage with certain builds.

In order to run an effective elemental unit you almost need a bard/mime combo on your team to buff the unit and also run focus/accumulate which really limits your options for other skills if you're going for maximum damage geomancy (which obviously it certainly is not the best option out there for a team). Idk, it likely won't happen but I just would like to see it used more often.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on May 29, 2015, 06:24:58 pm
Mythril Gun - 6 Range, +2 MA, 8 WP, One Handed
Romanda Gun - 8 Range, 10 WP, One Handed
Stone Gun - 4 Range, 12 WP, Two Handed, Initial Petrify

If Stone Gun were to get its 6 range back would there be any use for Mythril Gun? Mythril's already underused as is. Does it really need to become completely obsolete? Romanda Gun would still be a good choice since it has 8 range and doesn't have the initial petrify. Attack Up Stone Gun would reign supreme in damage with its 12x16 damage boost in comparison to Romanda's 10x12.

One-Handed Stone Gun isn't as bad of a change as 6 range, but it still seems like too much since it would have more absorb and evasion options. A bunch of 12 SP Archers with 300+ HP running around would almost completely shut down any sandbagging outside of raise 2 maybe.

PA+3 just to avoid needing to stack PA gear on some units? Elemental already deals 100-140 damage for most classes. Throwing in just one PA into the damage formula would make it too convenient. Maybe try out Ultima or Comet if you want a 40 Faith, unevadable, ability Mudvayne.  Counter Flood would have to be nerfed to 300+ JP if Elemental saw such a buff. You could just go with Squire/Geomancy if you want some potentially insane elemental Damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on May 29, 2015, 08:00:44 pm
My personal thought of Mythril Gun is that it needs to be redesigned anyway. I would prefer to see +1 speed or proc Some low damage spell like Dia (and then hopefully White Staff would change). We could even make it a healing gun to make it more useful. There are so many options that could be done instead of another +2 MA weapon.

Fact is though that just because Mythril Gun isn't great, it doesn't justify Stone Gun being nerfed. I mean, 192 damage pre fury single target just isn't that much. Add defense up, unyielding, Cherche, high HP over all, and the fact that to even get to that number you have to use Attack UP? Ugh. Now, just to get that you can't equip a shield and your range is only four? I don't think 100% accuracy is enough to justify both a 2 hands and a 6 range nerf.

Your argument about fast archers running around is balanced heavily by the fact that running an initial petrify unit is risky to start. Two of them? A wrong map or AI stupidity in general would sink you. Also, your other two units must be able to cute petrify and item is the only totally reliable way. At max speed with a stone gun, you're looking at a 284 HP archer. It's not that impressive for all the risk and team building you must incorporate.

Finally, the Stone Gun is not a versatile weapon. To utilize it in almost any capacity, you must be willing to make that your primary attack method. There's no point in making a, say, stone gunner with Martial Arts. Plenty of other weapons would be an infinitely better choice.

To me, it just seems like an awful lot of trouble for a weapon that really can't even OHKO any full health unit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on May 29, 2015, 08:33:09 pm
Gun vs Revival
Wish: All Guns destroy Wish.
Phoenix Down: All Guns destroy Phoenix Down
Fairy: Guns will either KO, or put units into critical which potentially wastes 2+ turns.
Raise: Ston Gun will cancel Raise out on most units. Combined with SP, the gunner will win the loop.
Raise 2: The only reliable way to survive gunners. Not even including Warpath gunners or SP stacked gunners that force the AI to go for Raise instead

Guns shouldn't have procs since there's already crossbows for that.

Two Stone Gunners running around would be worth the risk of losing on small maps due to AI problems. Just give the soft, esuna or refute unit high SP so you're almost guaranteed to get them out.

Stone Gun by itself isn't versatile, but it gives Mediator, Archer, and Chemist more options than most weapons since they have free equipment slots to fit on almost any team.Kagesougi Stone Gun, Stone Gun on an absorb team, Southern Cross maybe?

Stone Gun not being able to OHKO isn't all that bad. I tend to go for near critical damage instead of critical/OHKO to avoid HP restore. You're more likely to have turn advantage against most reactions that way if you get a hit in.

No idea what kind of build could benefit from Mythril Gun outside of Chemist/Sing/Dance or Chemist/Geomancy.

What ever happened to that berserk stone gun archer from early 139? Has anyone ever tried Berserk Mime + a Gunner? I made a joke all gunner team when testing out my undead monk's chances vs seal evil with projectile guard. Mimic 200+ damage romanda guns with Attack UP and 70 Brave? Didn't try Stone Gun, but I'm sure mimic could reach 300. At that point the damage is unnecessary
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on May 31, 2015, 05:48:38 am
Compared to how they were, the guns aren't a big deal anymore. The anti sandbag stuff could pretty much be said about any ranged weapon and some abilities. Should also note the use of defense up, auto potion, damage split and arrow guard making the lesser revival skills worth it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 05, 2015, 12:42:06 am
A new Dark element weapon would be nice, to compliment the whole whopping two we have at present.

A magic gun that shoots Demi (that's Demi, not Demi 2) sounds both hilarious and actually kind of useful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on June 10, 2015, 05:10:08 pm
Quote from: Reks on June 05, 2015, 12:42:06 am
A new Dark element weapon would be nice, to compliment the whole whopping two we have at present.

A magic gun that shoots Demi (that's Demi, not Demi 2) sounds both hilarious and actually kind of useful.

I wouldn't mind mythril gun becoming this if we don't convert it to a healing gun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on June 10, 2015, 06:31:47 pm
Would a tranquilizer crossbow be too OP? Maybe 33% add slow or maybe sleep?

I like the sound of a healing gun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Zotis on June 10, 2015, 10:27:42 pm
So, with the Flash Hat being changed... well I like that you guys added a hat that halves Earth, Wind, and Water, but I still liked having an Innocence hat.  Any chance of getting a new one?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 10, 2015, 11:47:18 pm
Quote from: reinoe on June 10, 2015, 05:10:08 pm
I wouldn't mind mythril gun becoming this if we don't convert it to a healing gun.
Quote from: Shintroy on June 10, 2015, 06:31:47 pm
Would a tranquilizer crossbow be too OP? Maybe 33% add slow or maybe sleep?

I like the sound of a healing gun.
The thing I see being an issue with a healing gun is that it makes some other forms of healing obsolete. Why use potions when you can shoot your friend for far more healing? You technically can do that already with Elemental absorb, but that sounds a bit iffy to me, if only for the reasons stated.

However, a Demi gun would ALWAYS do (or heal if Dark absorb) the same damage. It wouldn't kill outright, but it certainly WOULD threaten tankier units and halt most forms of sangbagging. And we get a nice, widely usable Dark element weapon out of it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on June 11, 2015, 07:23:56 am
Quote from: Reks on June 10, 2015, 11:47:18 pm
The thing I see being an issue with a healing gun is that it makes some other forms of healing obsolete. Why use potions when you can shoot your friend for far more healing? You technically can do that already with Elemental absorb, but that sounds a bit iffy to me, if only for the reasons stated.

However, a Demi gun would ALWAYS do (or heal if Dark absorb) the same damage. It wouldn't kill outright, but it certainly WOULD threaten tankier units and halt most forms of sangbagging. And we get a nice, widely usable Dark element weapon out of it.


The healing gun would rely either on brave or faith. Sure, you could have your unit shoot for more healing but they're gonna need either high brave, or if it triggers a cure spell instead, faith which makes your item bots who you'd want to put this on more vulnerable. You could use shell, defense up, etc but is it really worth it? I guess it depends on your build. (Also, unyielding would become a bad choice if relying on healing gun, while overwhelm becomes more appealing.)

Demi would be fine. Demi 2 would probably be okay if it weren't 100% accuracy (same chance on evading the spell).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 12, 2015, 06:12:20 pm

The purpose behind the idea is to make the Jump stat more valuable. Overall the CT would just be slightly lower if the XX value is set right, something like 21 should do. Jump can be stacked up to a value of 7. Raising this cap would require ASM.

3 Jump: 7 CT
4 Jump: 6 CT
5 Jump: 5 CT
6 Jump: 4 CT
7 Jump: 3 CT

We would see actual use for Jump+1 and Jump+2 as a result. Spears would probably get a +Jump treatment and lose their +Speed as a result.




Everything 'Mythril' seems to gradually leave the game, I'm guessing the rest will leave eventually so I'll begin discussion about it.

Mythril Gun: Definitely needs a change. I was thinking along the lines of making it the 'tactical' ranged weapon, by giving it +1 Move instead of the +2 MA that so many weapons seem to have right now

Mythril Spear: I agree with the view that the "Breath" spears (which includes this one) need to be renamed and given their respective elements.

Mythril Shield: Shields are more of a global issue. I've already mentioned before, giving each shield a status immunity could make them slightly more attractive.

Mythril Helmet: Some of the helmets feel a bit samey at the moment. Mythril Helmet could give its immunities to another helmet or two and then be scrapped since there are too many helmets compared to other armors and clothings.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 13, 2015, 05:59:38 pm
I had a thought, though it's completely contextual rather than mechanical.

If a Berserked unit is technically impossible to reason with

Then wouldn't they also somewhat be immune to, say, Talk Skill? Doesn't make as much sense when talked down from punching someone in the face, but still being IN their face the whole time (Yeah, more than one source for Don't Act. I just find the whole situation amusing, though if Berserked units did become immune to Don't Act/Don't Move somehow, it's make it more dangerous to actually use it, and more worthwhile to have a perma-serker unit. Just thoughts, and again, don't take me seriously)
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on June 12, 2015, 06:12:20 pm

The purpose behind the idea is to make the Jump stat more valuable. Overall the CT would just be slightly lower if the XX value is set right, something like 21 should do. Jump can be stacked up to a value of 7. Raising this cap would require ASM.

3 Jump: 7 CT
4 Jump: 6 CT
5 Jump: 5 CT
6 Jump: 4 CT
7 Jump: 3 CT

We would see actual use for Jump+1 and Jump+2 as a result. Spears would probably get a +Jump treatment and lose their +Speed as a result.




Everything 'Mythril' seems to gradually leave the game, I'm guessing the rest will leave eventually so I'll begin discussion about it.

Mythril Gun: Definitely needs a change. I was thinking along the lines of making it the 'tactical' ranged weapon, by giving it +1 Move instead of the +2 MA that so many weapons seem to have right now

Mythril Spear: I agree with the view that the "Breath" spears (which includes this one) need to be renamed and given their respective elements.

Mythril Shield: Shields are more of a global issue. I've already mentioned before, giving each shield a status immunity could make them slightly more attractive.

Mythril Helmet: Some of the helmets feel a bit samey at the moment. Mythril Helmet could give its immunities to another helmet or two and then be scrapped since there are too many helmets compared to other armors and clothings.



The Jump +s powering the CT of the Jump skillset sounds badass, actually.

As for Mythril stuff, yeah it could be better. Helmets could be compacted a bit more, give room for more items.

Mythril Gun? Well, I'm assuming it'll either be some sort of healing gun (Potion Launcher? Hehe.) or, like my own suggestion, a Demi-shooting Magic Gun.

Shields are iffy to mess with. My own suggestion in the past was to give them buffs rather than (just) absorb or status protection, whether initial or always. Just seems a bit more of an incentive for a non-shield unit to have Equip Shield beyond evasion/absorption purposes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 19, 2015, 06:51:59 am
Here are some ideas for shields. Not sure about the weaknesses so I left them there. Maybe it's better this way.

Force Shield (Round Shield)
15% P-EV, 15% M-EV
Half: Holy, Dark
+25 MP

Earth
Ward (Mythril Shield)
15% P-EV, 20% M-EV
Absorb: Earth, Weak: Light
ning
Immune: Petrify, Frog

Thunder Shield (Gold Shield)
20% P-EV, 15% M-EV
Absorb: Lightning, Weak: Earth
Initial: Regen, Immune: Poison

Ice Shield
15% P-EV, 10% M-EV
Absorb: Ice, Weak: Fire
Initial: Protect

Flame Shield
10% P-EV, 15% M-EV
Absorb: Fire, Weak: Ice
Initial: Shell

Black Shield (Diamond Shield)
5% P-EV, 25% M-EV
Absorb: Dark, Weak: Holy
Immune: Charm, Stop

White Shield (Platina Shield)
25% P-EV, 5% M-EV
Absorb: Holy, Weak: Dark
Immune: Slow, Darkness

Tactician's Shield (Crystal Shield)
30% P-EV, 5% M-EV
Immune: Oil, Neutral: All elements
+1 Move, +1 Jump
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 19, 2015, 07:10:33 am
If you're on the topic of shields why not have a mirror shield be the round shield instead of force so that way we would have more options of the reflect status. It can be 20% P-Ev and 0% M-Ev with Always Reflect. I would also bring Genji Shield's P-Ev up to 15% so that way it can still be a viable shield without being too OP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 19, 2015, 07:41:55 am
I thought of Mirror Shield as an idea. I didn't end up suggesting it because there's Reflect Mail and Ring already and they're not used often. I didn't delve much into Arena's Reflect yet though, will take a more detailed look later. I also agree with Genji Shield getting a little more evasion. Aegis has 30% M-EV to compare, and Zephyr outmatches Genji in almost all situations.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on June 19, 2015, 09:34:58 am
Not a fan of the prot/shell buffs on there. Makes it too easy to have an always protect and shell unit with cherche and setiemson. Then if that char has unyielding or def/m def up? Too easy to be overly tanky imo.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 19, 2015, 09:49:36 am
I don't think having buffs on shields would be a good idea too. Too many options to be extremely tanky. Even if you slap on maintenance you can still take an absurd amount of punishment. I can probably thin of a list later. It will be a combination of someone else's ideas with some of my own tweaks
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 19, 2015, 12:45:33 pm
Here's what I would propose, at least as a idea on how to do 1.4

Squire Male - HP: 165, MP: 62, Sp: 8, PA: 9, MA: 7, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Squire Female - HP: 154, MP: 67, Sp: 8, PA: 7, MA: 9, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Chemist Male - HP: 154, MP: 77, Sp: 9, PA: 8, MA: 6, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Chemist Female - HP 144, MP: 82, Sp: 9, PA: 6, MA: 8, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Paladin Male - HP: 185, MP: 24, Sp: 8, PA: 11, MA: 5, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Paladin Female - HP: 173, MP: 25, Sp: 8, PA: 9, MA: 6, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Archer Male - HP: 154, MP: 28, Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 4, Move: 3, Jump: 5
Archer Female - HP: 144, MP: 30 Sp: 9, PA: 9, MA: 5, Move: 3, Jump: 5
Monk Male - HP: 185, MP: 43, Sp: 9, PA: 13, MA: 6, Move: 3, Jump: 4
Monk Female - HP: 176, MP: 46, Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 7, Move: 3, Jump: 4
Priest Male - HP: 134, MP: 77, Sp: 9, PA: 8, MA: 9, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Priest Female - HP: 125, MP: 82, Sp: 9, PA: 6, MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Wizard Male - HP: 113, MP: 82, Sp: 8, PA: 4, MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Wizard Female - HP: 106, MP: 87, Sp: 8, PA: 2, MA: 13, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Time Mage Male - HP: 113, MP: 72, Sp: 10, PA: 5, MA: 9, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Time Mage Female - HP: 106, MP: 77, Sp: 10, PA: 3, MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Summoner Male - HP: 103, MP: 111, Sp: 8, PA: 4, MA: 10, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Summoner Female - HP: 96, MP: 118, Sp: 8, PA: 2, MA: 12, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Thief Male - HP: 144, MP: 19, Sp: 10, PA: 10, MA: 4, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Thief Female - HP: 135, MP: 20, Sp: 10, PA: 8, MA: 5, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Mediator Male - HP: 165, MP: 57, Sp: 10, PA: 8, MA: 8, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Mediator Female - HP: 154, MP: 61, Sp: 10, PA: 6, MA: 10, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Oracle Male - HP: 154, MP: 72, Sp: 8, PA: 7, MA: 9, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Oracle Female - HP: 144, MP: 77, Sp: 8, PA: 6, MA: 11, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Geomancer Male - HP: 165, MP: 57, Sp: 8, PA: 10, MA: 8, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Geomancer Female - HP: 154, MP: 61, Sp: 8, PA: 8, MA: 10, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Lancer Male - HP: 165, MP: 28, Sp: 9, PA: 11, MA: 4, Move: 3, Jump: 6
Lancer Female - HP: 154, MP: 30, Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 5, Move: 3, Jump: 6
Samurai Male - HP: 154, MP: 43, Sp: 8, PA: 10, MA: 10, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Samurai Female - HP: 144, MP: 46, Sp: 8, PA: 9, MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump :3
Ninja Male - HP: 113, MP: 24, Sp: 10, PA: 10, MA: 5, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Ninja Female - HP: 106, MP: 25, Sp: 10, PA: 8, MA: 7, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Scholar Male - HP: 113, MP: 86, Sp: 8, PA: 9, MA: 12, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Scholar Female - HP: 106, MP: 92, Sp: 8, PA: 8, MA: 13, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Bard - HP: 144, MP: 67, Sp: 8, PA: 9, MA: 12, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Dancer - HP: 135, MP: 72, Sp: 8, PA: 13, MA: 8, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Mime Male - HP: 146, MP: 57, Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 9, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Mime Female - HP: 136, MP: 61, Sp: 9, PA: 8, MA: 11, Move: 4, Jump: 4

All Knives should all +1 speed instead of +1 move. However Orichalcum and Katar can still have the +1 MA/PA
Also the Bizen Boat proc chance from the Mage Masher should increase from 25% to 33%

All ninja swords are fine as they are

Shieldrender should have WP be increased to 9 because no one uses it anymore

Coral Sword should have WP be increased to 12

Platinum Sword should have W-EV% increased to 20% since again no one uses it.

Ultima Weapon should have WP increased to 11

Knight Swords are fine as they are

Chirijiraden should have always berserk

Axes are fine as they are

Rods are fine as they are

Gold Staff should have -1 Speed and WP increased to 12

White Staff should have absorb Holy

Flails are fine as they are

Mythril Gun should have range increased to 8

Stone Gun, Blaze, Glacier and Blast Gun should have range increased to 5

Gastrafitis should have WP decreased to 13 but gain 50% extra attack proc

Silver Bow should have 25% chance to proc Holy

Ice/Lightning/Windslash Bow should have strengthen Ice/Lightning/Wind elemental instead of status proc chance

Windslash Bow should have hurricane proc chance be 33%

Atheist Bow should have WP decreased to 14 but have 5 range.

Harps are fine as they are

Books are fine as they are

Javelin should have WP increased to 10

Spear should be renamed Ice Lance and have element be ice and strengthen ice. looses breath proc

Mythril Spear should be renamed Heat Lance and have element be fire and strengthen fire. looses breath proc

Partisan should be renamed Thunder Lance and have element be lightning and stregnthen lightining. looses breath proc

Obelisk should have WP increased to 13

Holy Lance should have WP increased to 11. Strengthen holy and have 50% of Holy proc

Dragon Whisker should have WP increased to 15 and have -1 speed

All spears should be two handed except for obelisk and dragon whisker

Sticks are fine as they are

Bags are fine as they are

Cloths are fine as they are

Crystal Shield should be renamed Mirror SHield with 30% P-Ev 5% M-Ev and Always: Reflect

Genji Shield should have P-Ev increased to 15%

Swift Plate should be renamed Zephyr Shield and have both P-Ev and M-Ev increased to 10%

Genji Helmet should have HP decreased to 105 and lose initial berserk but gain + 1 speed

Golden Hairpin should have HP decreased to 60 but have MP increased to 60 add MA +1

Flash Hat should have PA +1

Thief Hat should have initial Innocent

Choice Band should have HP Increased to 80. Have intial haste removed and gain innocent, faith, don't move, silence, poison, oil protection

Chakra Band should have HP increased to 80

Genji Armor should have HP increased to 95

Reflect Mail should have always Reflect

Clothes are fine as they are

Light Robe should have poison and undead protection

Sprint Shoes should have Move +1

108 Gems should have poison, silence and oil protection
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on June 19, 2015, 12:58:45 pm
I like a lot of whats proposed there.

Summoner does need some more kind of boost to its stats though. Either a tweak in hp, an extra speed point, or really high MA. Currently there is like no reason to ever class as a summoner. I get they have a huge MP pool but having the lowest hp and 8 sp and only 12 ma?

They either need +~15 hp, 9 speed, or like 11-12 male MA and 13-14 female MA, imho. Or make them the 'mobile' caster with maybe 4 move and 4 jump?

Also, not feeling the innocent initial on thief hat. +1 PA on flash hat also doesn't seem... necessary? Or exactly relevant to the item. Maybe +1 MA if anything. It's pretty good as is.

I don't think golden hairpin needs a buff with +1 MA. I think it should stay as is.

Also don't like the +1 speed on all of the daggers, unless you propose that most of them are not able to be used with 2 swords. +2 speed from dual wielding daggers could become a problem.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 19, 2015, 04:31:32 pm
Those are just that ideas. I can understand where the speed daggers can be a problem. Maybe speed on only the daggers that are not dual wieldable so that way it would have some balance. I know mine aren't perfect and I'm fine with combining that with other ideas
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 20, 2015, 07:18:05 am
Having both Protect and Shell is currently possible but it involves setups that don't have access to shields (Greatswords forced two hands, Cloths are exclusive to a job with no shields).

Blue = Can be reflected
Brown = Should not be reflected

Squire, Chemist
Nothing

Paladin
Nurse
Consecration
Transfusion
Iron Will
Reraise
Grand Cross
Southern Cross

Archer, Monk
Nothing

Priest
Cure
Cure 2
Cure 3
Cure 4
Raise
Raise 2
Regen
Protect
Protect 2
Shell
Shell 2
Wall
Esuna
Dia
Holy

Black Magic
Fire
Nether Fire
Fire 2
Bolt
Nether Bolt
Bolt 2
Ice
Nether Ice
Ice 2
Water
Nether Water
Water 2
Poison
Frog
Death
Flare

Time Magic
Haste
Haste 2
Slow
Slow 2
Stop
Don't Move
Comet
Sinkhole
Balance
Demi
Demi 2

Summon Magic, Steal, Talk Skill
Nothing

Yin Yang Magic
Blind
Spell Absorb
Life Drain
Zombie
Silence Song
Blind Rage
Beguile
Dispel Magic
Paralyze
Sleep
Petrify

Elemental, Jump, Draw Out
Nothing

Ninjitsu
Tsumazuku
Shuriken
Meiton
Fuuton
Suiton
Houkouton
Kagesougi

Lore
Maelstrom
Rime Bolt
Earth Dragon
Thunder Flare
Shadow Shade
Mad Science
Bio
Bio 2
Bio 3
Tornado
Quake

Sing, Dance
Nothing


I've redone your job ideas with some colors for better analysis. May as well post it here

Green = Buff
Red = Nerf

Squire Male - HP: 165, MP: 62, Sp: 8,
PA: 9, MA: 7, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Squire Female - HP: 154, MP: 67, Sp: 8,
PA: 7, MA: 9, Move: 4, Jump: 3

Chemist Male - HP: 154, MP: 77, Sp: 9, PA: 8, MA: 6, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Chemist Female - HP 144, MP: 82, Sp: 9, PA: 6, MA: 8, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Paladin Male - HP: 185, MP: 24, Sp: 8,
PA: 11, MA: 5, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Paladin Female - HP: 173, MP: 25, Sp: 8,
PA: 9, MA: 6, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Archer Male - HP: 154, MP: 28, Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 4, Move: 3,
Jump: 5
Archer Female - HP: 144, MP: 30 Sp: 9, PA: 9, MA: 5, Move: 3,
Jump: 5

Monk Male - HP: 185, MP: 43, Sp: 9, PA: 13,
MA: 6, Move: 3, Jump: 4
Monk Female -
HP: 176, MP: 46, Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 7, Move: 3, Jump: 4

Priest Male - HP: 134, MP: 77,
Sp: 9, PA: 8, MA: 9, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Priest Female - HP: 125, MP: 82,
Sp: 9, PA: 6, MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Wizard Male - HP: 113, MP: 82, Sp: 8, PA: 4,
MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Wizard Female - HP: 106, MP: 87, Sp: 8,
PA: 2, MA: 13, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Time Mage Male - HP: 113, MP: 72,
Sp: 10, PA: 5, MA: 9, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Time Mage Female - HP: 106, MP: 77,
Sp: 10, PA: 3, MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Summoner Male - HP: 103, MP: 111, Sp: 8,
PA: 4, MA: 10, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Summoner Female - HP: 96, MP: 118, Sp: 8, PA: 2,
MA: 12, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Thief Male - HP: 144, MP: 19, Sp: 10,
PA: 10, MA: 4, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Thief Female - HP: 135, MP: 20, Sp: 10,
PA: 8, MA: 5, Move: 4, Jump: 4

Mediator Male - HP: 165, MP: 57,
Sp: 10, PA: 8, MA: 8, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Mediator Female - HP: 154, MP: 61,
Sp: 10, PA: 6, MA: 10, Move: 4, Jump: 3

Oracle Male - HP: 154, MP: 72, Sp: 8, PA: 7,
MA: 9, Move: 4, Jump: 3
Oracle Female - HP: 144, MP: 77, Sp: 8, PA: 6,
MA: 11, Move: 4, Jump: 3

Geomancer Male - HP: 165, MP: 57, Sp: 8,
PA: 10, MA: 8, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Geomancer Female - HP: 154, MP: 61, Sp: 8, PA: 8, MA: 10, Move: 4,
Jump: 4

Lancer Male - HP: 165, MP: 28,
Sp: 9, PA: 11, MA: 4, Move: 3, Jump: 6
Lancer Female - HP: 154, MP: 30,
Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 5, Move: 3, Jump: 6

Samurai Male - HP: 154, MP: 43, Sp: 8,
PA: 10, MA: 10, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Samurai Female - HP: 144, MP: 46, Sp: 8,
PA: 9, MA: 11, Move: 3, Jump :3

Ninja Male - HP: 113, MP: 24,
Sp: 10, PA: 10, MA: 5, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Ninja Female - HP: 106, MP: 25,
Sp: 10, PA: 8, MA: 7, Move: 4, Jump: 4

Scholar Male - HP: 113, MP: 86, Sp: 8, PA: 9,
MA: 12, Move: 3, Jump: 3
Scholar Female - HP: 106, MP: 92, Sp: 8, PA: 8,
MA: 13, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Bard - HP: 144, MP: 67, Sp: 8,
PA: 9, MA: 12, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Dancer - HP: 135, MP: 72, Sp: 8,
PA: 13, MA: 8, Move: 3, Jump: 3

Mime Male -
HP: 146, MP: 57, Sp: 9, PA: 10, MA: 9, Move: 4, Jump: 4
Mime Female -
HP: 136, MP: 61, Sp: 9, PA: 8, MA: 11, Move: 4, Jump: 4

The Bard's and Dancer's stats aren't tied together. Increasing the Bard's PA wouldn't affect the Dancer's PA or vice versa, unless you really meant to increase both of them separately.


I think several mage classes need a serious PA buff if we ever want to see things like male Wizards. I'd add knives to their equipment, too.

I had feedback on your stats ideas but couldn't access the site for most of the day.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 20, 2015, 08:02:58 am
For the bard and dancer it was meant to be a separate thing. If they have to remain unchanged i'm fine with that

I also think that bards should be able to wear robes again. It will give them a good MP supply in case anyone wants to make a caster bard
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on June 20, 2015, 05:07:33 pm

Squire M - PA 9, MA 7
Squire F - PA 7, MA 9
Chemist - Fine as is
Paladin - Fine as is
Archer - Fine as is
Monk M - 13 PA, 4 MA
Priest - 5-10 HP Buff
Time Mage - Fine as is
Summoner - 10-20 MP Buff
Thief - 5-15 HP Nerf, 15 C-EV
Mediator - Fine as is
Oracle - Fine as is
Geomancer - Fine as is
Lancer - +Robes
Samurai - 10-15 C-EV
Ninja - Fine as is
Scholar - -1 PA
Bard - Fine as is
Dancer - Fine as is
Mime - +1 MA/PA



Priest
- Protect/Shell - Instant. 100 JP
Time Mage
- Stop - Hit_F(MA+60)%
- Demi - Hit_F(85)%
Thief
- Bad Luck - Removed
- New Skill or Reaction - Stealth or Sunken State
Oracle
-Spell Absorb - AbsMP_F(MA*7) Hit_F(MA+70)%
-Life Drain - AbsHP _F(MA*7) Hit_F(MA+70)%
Geomancer
- Pitfall, Hell Ivy, Carve Model - Dmg_((PA+3(/2*MA)
Lancer
- Jump - Element = Weapon
Ninja
- Meiton, Fuuton, Suiton - Change hit property to magic so it doesn't deal bonus sleep damage.
Scholar
-Quake, Tornado - CT 3




Mime - SP 9

Genji Armor, Secret Clothes, Thief Hat - HP +5-10


(suggestion)
Knives
- Mage Masher - 33% Cast Magic Ruin ( 8 WP Two Hands, 33% Magic Ruin )
Swords
- Phoenix Blade - W-EV 20%
Katanas
- Masamune - 8 WP, W-EV 15%,  Range 2 Stats/Element/Special None, 2H Yes, 2S No
Rods
- Thunder, Ice, Flame Rod - WP +1 (MA +1)
- Dragon Rod - 10 WP
Staves
- White Staff - 10 WP, Strengthen: Holy
- Healing Staff - Strengthen Holy removed.
Guns
- Mythril Gun - 8 WP, 4 Range,  +1 or +2 MA, 2S
- Stone, Blaze, Glacier, Blast Gun - 5 Range
Crossbows
-Bow Gun - Give Animation otherwis change into
(Crossbow - 8 WP, PA+2
(Scout's Bow 8 WP. Move +1 Jump+1)
(Repeating Cbow - 7 WP, 4 Range, Dual Cutter Effect)
Books
- Monster Dict - 33% Cast Bizen Boat
Spears
- Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan - Give element.
Bags
- P Bag - Immune: Poison
Cloths
- W-EV% 20



New Shield - P-EV/M-EV 15%, Move/Jump +1



Helmets
-Genji Helmet - 70 HP, +1 SP
Hats
- New Hat - 70 HP, 10 MP, +1 MA/PA
Headbands
- Choice or Focus Band removed (Choice)
- Super Ribbon (red) - SP+1, PA+1, MA+1 +0-50 HP (See FFV/FFXI)
Clothes
- New Clothes - *) 80 HP, 5 MP, +1PA/MA
Robes
- Light Robe - Immune: Poison


Remove Immune Petrify on Chakra Band
Add both Immune Dead and Death Sentence



Battle Boots - Immune Darkness
Red Shoes - Immune Silence
108 Gems - Immune Poison
Elf Mantle - Immune Poison



With Always reflect, dead units can't be revived by Raise.

Thief Hat Initial Innocent? Would rather have a new hat for that.

Sprint Shoes with Move +1 kills the balance of +move shoes.

+1 SP on Daggers? Definitely too OP
Golden Hairpin +1 MA again? Not balanced.
Gold Staff and Dragon Whisker -1 SP? There's no real reason for this, especially on for the spear due to Jump CT.

I like Absorb Holy on White Staff

I'd rather change bow gun than Gastrophetes. It's a great weapon on high PA units due to its versatility with WP*PA abilities. We had similar ideas with a double attack crossbow though.

I like the strengthen element on the bows. (Would have to remove Hurrican Bow's proc)

I like the Javelin change, but only if the elemental spears get a buff, otherwise this doens't balance spears.

Flash Hat +1 PA? Why? This just makes Twist Headband less viable. Flash Hat and White Robe are still extremely good pieces of equipment.



Summoner could definitely use a buff. What about giving it 13 MA Female and 10 MA Male to reflect Monk? 9 SP alone would make it a more viable main class. Summoner should still have the lowest HP out of all casters since it has always been that way throughout the series.
All daggers with +1 SP is a bit absurd though.

-------------------------
If possible, I'd like the color purple to replace brown in the palette choices. Not many people use brown so I think it would be a good call.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 20, 2015, 06:48:54 pm
Reason why I would like always reflect because you can still use fairy and revive for other means of sandbagging. It would make up for interesting sandbagging strategies and have teams that rely on defense and healing.

I can understand where st least half of my ideas wouldn't go well. But reason for -1 speed spear would be because Lancer's should get 9 speed back and the dragon whisker is a alternative if you want to go back to 8. With Lancers having 8 speed I feel is kind of the same as paladin only better jump. That's why I feel 9 speed Lancers are a bit more unique. I'm willing to mesh ideas together like I mentioned before into one proposal of changes
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on June 20, 2015, 07:58:16 pm
9 SP Lancer would make it a more viable damage dealer though. I forget who mentioned this in the video discussion thread, but would it be possible to change Jump's CT to be affected by the jump stat instead of SP?  What would that that turn ignore height lancers into 1 CT jumpers or not? I'm guessing no due to there being ways for abilities to go by base stats like Murasame.

Also I realized after posting adding PA/MA +1 clothes would sort of defeat the purpose of the item limitations so scratch that idea.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 20, 2015, 09:26:37 pm
There's an ASM for changing Jump's CT formula, it's one of Choto's hacks. I've tried it and it works well. I don't think Ignore Height would affect Jump's CT at all, or at least didn't seem like it while I was testing it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 24, 2015, 01:05:27 pm
I'm about 9 months late, but it's nice to see that the 1.39 patch finally came out.  I'm a little bummed to see that Time Mage and Summoner still suffer from poor stats, but thank you all the same FFMaster.

Does the new Oil dispel on hit?

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 24, 2015, 01:55:31 pm
I don't think so
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on June 24, 2015, 07:37:28 pm
I have some pretty strong thoughts about the suggestions proposed, some of them agreeing and some not. It is too bad The Damned is not around to weigh in...I would love to hear his thoughts on these too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 25, 2015, 09:00:37 am
Hunh.  I've been away for a long time, and my memory is all fuzzy, but let me weigh in on a few recent topics.

First, a preface: I've noticed since before my absence that FFT Arena suffers from overlap.  There are many weapons, skills, and jobs that do similar things.  As a result, a large part of the metagame is focused on figuring out which builds accomplish the same task better than the others.  The cure to this is diversity.  Rather than tweak all parts of a given role until they are equally attractive, I believe that it is better to repurpose some into a different role entirely.

Let me provide an example.

Mythril Gun
This gun has suffered from mediocrity for awhile.  It performs the same task as an MA booster and a Romanda Gun, but not as well; Unlike the Mythril gun, MA boosters (Wizard Staff, etc.) typically grant W-EV, and the Romanda Gun deals more damage and has longer range.

Following up on Reks' suggestion, repurposing the Mythril Gun as a fourth spellgun that casts instant, single-target Demi is a good idea. A healing gun is good, too, although this does partially overlap with potions.


Now onto a few other things.

Scholars vs Wizards
Scholars and Wizards are undeniably in competition with each other in purpose.  Though Scholars have access to a wider range of weaponry, their respective skill sets encourage players to play them the same way: by stacking MA and nuking opponents with magic and/or weapons.  Rather than delicately tweak each classes' stats to find a fair balance, I suggest we repurpose one class -- scholars -- entirely.

A class whose absence I've felt strongly about is the battle mage: a tanky spellcaster with decent HP and MP, low CT spells, and access to shields, and possibly also armor.  Currently, all mages with the exception of Oracles suffer from low HP, and no mage has access to shields.  If we could repurpose Scholars as a battlemage, they would fulfill this new, unique role.

Of course, as a spellcaster, there will be times when the class is attacked midcharge, during which time the equipped shield's evasion is not applied.  To solve this problem, it would be nice to create a reaction ability that ignores the Charging and Performing flags when calculating damage, so that evasion is always applied.  This reaction ability can even be set as one of the classes Innate abilities.

Stats and skills would look something like this:

M: 144 HP, 77 MP, 08 SP, 10 PA, 08 MA, 4 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
F: 135 HP, 82 MP, 08 SP, 08 PA, 10 MA, 4 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
Can equip: Swd, Rod, Stf, Book, Pole, Shld, Helm, Armr, Robe, Acc

Maelstrom: As before
Rime Bolt: As before
Earth Dragon: As before
Thunder Flare: As before
Shadow Shade: As before
Mad Science: Killed off/Repurposed/CT lowered at the expense of something else.
Tornado: Light\moderate AoE damage. Cancels some sort of positive buff. CT stays at 2.
Quake: As with Tornado
Bio 1/2/3: Sent to Wizard.  At least one Bio spell could be repurposed/killed off.
Poison: Inherited from Wizard. CT may be reduced to 0.
Spellsinger (... or something): Allows P-EV and M-EV to be applied even when Charging/Performing. 200 JP or so.
Distribute: As before/moved to another class
Damage Split: As before/moved to another class
Equip Magegear: As before
Move=0: As before

As a bonus, this new reaction ability will allow the map-wide lore spells (Maelstrom, etc.) to be safely cast in the midst of battle in spite of their long CT. Other classes with long CT spells, particularly Summoners, will also benefit from this new ability. This ability will also make Equip Shield a viable support ability on spellcasters.

To continue further, I wonder how easily status effects that manipulate elemental strengthening and/or weaknesses can be implemented.  After hearing about the new Oil negating elemental defense, I wondered about the possibility of creating status effects that temporarily add "Halve: All elements," "Strengthen: All elements" or some such.  If so, this class could use these skills, as well.


Ninja
I mentioned this around... two years ago, so I doubt anyone remembers, but what do people think about redesigning Houkouton, which is awfully similar to Punch Art in purpose, to a 0 CT spell that cancels some positive buffs that are often exploited, but hard to respond to in the current metagame, like Haste and Regen? This change would invigorate the Ninja skillset as as means of debuffing opponents.


Changing Jump timing to XX\Jump
Good idea! The archer's movement abilities should go to Lancer if this change is implemented.


Protect and Shell
Given that the AI only casts the Priest spells when the target is in danger of dying, having the spells heal as well as apply Protect and Shell is the best solution.  However, I am not sure that a skill can both heal and apply a buff at the same time.  If this is impossible, then lowering the CT to 0 is the best compromise.

Edit: Ignore the following.
On a tangent, is it possible to reduce the damage reduction of Protect, Shell, Defend UP, and Magic Defend UP from 2/3 to 3/4?  2/3 reduction is fine if these buffs can only be temporarily applied through spells, but items and support abilities with Always: Protect/Shell, particularly perfumes, are just too good.  For example, equipping Defend UP increase ones effective HP and effective healing (toward one of the two damage types, mind you) by a whopping 50%.  In contrast, equipping Equip Armor increases ones HP by 15%~20%, and effective healing does not increase at all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 25, 2015, 09:20:43 am
The only thing I can think for a good reaction name that allows P-Ev & M-Ev while charging would be Extrasensory. Kind of like blade grasp for those who play regular tactics only what Gaignun suggested
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on June 25, 2015, 10:10:24 am
Awesome idea for the Scholar. And I agree about too many weapons and items fulfilling similar roles. I like the Jump idea as well. Lots of good stuff proposed. There is lots of tweaking that could be done to improve Arena.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 25, 2015, 10:33:04 am
It is true that Time Mages and Summoners can use a buff. I would think better speed and HP would be beneficial. Especially since they are both squishy. Summoners shouldn't be this slow and their MA should be on par with scholars.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 25, 2015, 04:03:56 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 25, 2015, 09:00:37 amProtect and Shell
Given that the AI only casts the Priest spells when the target is in danger of dying, having the spells heal as well as apply Protect and Shell is the best solution.  However, I am not sure that a skill can both heal and apply a buff at the same time.  If this is impossible, then lowering the CT to 0 is the best compromise.

On a tangent, is it possible to reduce the damage reduction of Protect, Shell, Defend UP, and Magic Defend UP from 2/3 to 3/4?  2/3 reduction is fine if these buffs can only be temporarily applied through spells, but items and support abilities with Always: Protect/Shell, particularly perfumes, are just too good.  For example, equipping Defend UP increase ones effective HP and effective healing (toward one of the two damage types, mind you) by a whopping 50%.  In contrast, equipping Equip Armor increases ones HP by 15%~20%, and effective healing does not increase at all.


Celdia's CCP2 has the Green Mage, who's Protect and Shell buffs heal for a minor amount on top of the buff itself, so it is possible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 25, 2015, 04:28:45 pm
I've also done a similar effect to Regen, where it immediately heals 13% of maxHP if successfully cast, using the Raise formula.


Protect and Shell (or Protect 2 and Shell 2) could also add: Defending. This could incite the AI to use them more often
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on June 25, 2015, 06:50:26 pm
Adding Defending to it would be bad I think. The AI LOVES defend and I feel like that would make it end up being literally the only ability the AI would ever use for that unit. I could be wrong but I know how much the AI priorities Defend over basically every other status, so if that was added to Protect/Shell then it would just be spammed all the time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 25, 2015, 08:04:21 pm
It's hard to tell. AI enjoys using Nurse at the beginning of a battle, but stops using it once Regen is in effect except to restore HP/cure Poison. On the other hand, Defend (the support) is being spammed over other potentially more useful actions (or no action at all, to conserve CT) despite having no other benefits. Going by that, one's guess would be that the MP cost prevents Nurse spamming here. Protect/Shell (2) also have an MP cost, as well as CT, which may discourage the AI from spamming it even if something such as Add: Defending was added. If they spam, you can scratch my idea
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on June 26, 2015, 01:02:12 pm
I would seriously love the shell/protect to go off preemptively, but add defend seems a bit OP to me. The ideas I came up with were:

1: Wall has a %chance to add haste, Just enough to make the skill work.

2: make shell/protect essentially a low strength cure spell with 100% add shell/protect, so even if we can't get preemptive casts, they'll at least potentially save a unit from death.

3: make a clothing item that starts a unit at 50-60% HP for the purposes of getting units to target their allies when they wouldn't otherwise (reraise, regen and perhaps absorb elemental may benefit from this, nameless song please?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on June 26, 2015, 09:12:19 pm
Shell is easy to have the AI use. The same methods used to forcibly apply innocent can be used with Shell, Shell 2, and even Wall. For those reasons I don't see any reason to buff these three spells.

The only way I can see protect being buffed is to give it a % heal. 10-25% at most, but only to. Shell could probably get a 10-25% MP healing so the AI uses it on units that are low on MP, units with a harmful spell being cast on them, and wounded units that aren't low enough in health to be healed, but enough to buffed.

Adding a chance to haste or defend to these spells would just mess with the AI. Certain support builds with life or nameless song are already affected by the chance of adding regen and positive status. For example,when you give a chemist nameless song or life song they'll choose to sing over everything else at all times.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 26, 2015, 10:31:02 pm
Dunno if it's Defending as much as it is applying Regen.

One of my teams that had the spell LOVED spamming it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 27, 2015, 12:44:01 pm
Quote from: Mudvayne on June 25, 2015, 06:50:26 pm
Adding Defending to it would be bad I think. The AI LOVES defend and I feel like that would make it end up being literally the only ability the AI would ever use for that unit. I could be wrong but I know how much the AI priorities Defend over basically every other status, so if that was added to Protect/Shell then it would just be spammed all the time.

If memory serves me right, the only statuses the AI uses proactively are Haste and Defend.  The AI will cease to apply either once engaged with the enemy.  Only when the AI retreats or is out of range of the enemy will it reapply them.

Therefore, if we make Protect and Shell apply Defend as well, then I am sure that the AI will use these spells at the start of the match as they should.  If required, we could even scrap Defend's +Evasion, which would effectively turn the status into a dirty AI priority hack.  Unfortunately, this would require uncovering where the +Evasion is applied in ASM.

2015.06.28 Edit
Consolidating a few numbers here.  Feel free to pick apart the details.

Protect: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Protect, 10 MP, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 150 JP
Shell: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Shell, 10 MP, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 150 JP
Protect 2: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Protect, 20 MP, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 4 CT, 250 JP
Shell 2: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Shell, 20 MP, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 4 CT, 250 JP
Regen: Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Regen, 10 MP, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 2 CT, 150 JP

Protect, Shell, and Regen turn into Cure spells that add a positive status at the expense of a finite CT.  Second-tier Protect/Shell are changed to match the change to the first tier.

NEW CLASS:
M: 134 HP, 67 MP, 8 SP, 10 PA, 8 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 0 C-EV
F: 125 HP, 72 MP, 8 SP, 8 PA, 10 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 0 C-EV
Can equip: Swd, Rod, Stf, Book, Pole, Shld, Helm, Armr, Robe, Acc
Innate abilities: Clairvoyance (see below)

Maelstrom: As before
Rime Bolt: As before
Earth Dragon: As before
Thunder Flare: As before
Shadow Shade: As before
Mad Science: Removed
Tornado: 4 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 20 MP, Wind elemental, Dmg_F(MA*7), 100% Cancel: Protect/Shell, 250 JP
Quake: 4 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 2 CT, 20 MP, Earth elemental, Dmg_F(MA*7), 100% Cancel: Haste/Regen, 250 JP
Bio 1: Sent to Wizard.  Made Dark elemental to prevent wizards from having innate access to non-elemental damage.
Bio 2: Removed. (If it was sent to Wizard, it would overlap with the Frog spell)
Bio 3: Sent to Wizard or removed.
Poison: Inherited from Wizard
Amplify: 4 Rng, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Amplify (strengthens all elements), 150 JP
Veil: 4 Rng, 1 AoE, 1 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Heal_F(MA*7), 100% Add: Veil (halves all elements), 150 JP
Clairvoyance: Allows P-EV and M-EV to be applied even when Charging/Performing. 200 JP. (The name is inspired from Barren's proposed "Extrasensory.")
Distribute: As before
Damage Split: As before
Equip Magegear: As before
Move=0: As before
Total skill count: 16

This new class would be the first mage class that can equip armor and shields.  With the M-EV from shields and the status immunity from armor, it can be used as a reliable status healer.  Also, with its decent MA and high HP pool from armor, the female version of this class can also be used as a reliable frontline attacker with staves and rods (e.g., with Dragon Rod, Golden Staff, Poison Rod, etc.) Conversely, the male version can attack with swords.  Both versions can attack with books and poles equally well.  The innate ability "Clairvoyance" makes this new class attractive as a primary class.

As for the skills, Tornado and Quake are redesigned, and Amplify and Veil are new. Tornado and Quake are changed to oppose the new Protect, Shell, and Regen, which will likely see more widespread use upon implementation of the proposed changes. Amplify and Veil will require the ASM hacking of two new status effects.  These status effects are similar to 6.39's Oil, only instead of adding "Neutral: All elements", they add "Strengthen: All elements" and "Halve: All elements." These two abilities also heal the targets to encourage the AI to use them consistently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 28, 2015, 12:14:56 pm
I also hope while we're at it we can fix the thief and scholar bug where their animations is all goofy
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 28, 2015, 03:24:42 pm
Quote from: Barren on June 28, 2015, 12:14:56 pmI also hope while we're at it we can fix the thief and scholar bug where their animations is all goofy


I found the problem and it's really simple: in ShiShi, the Scholars were made into TYPE1 when they are actually TYPE2 sprites. The Thieves are TYPE2 when they should be TYPE1. No need to wait for an update, you could change it right now if you wanted. >>

Quote from: Gaignun on June 27, 2015, 12:44:01 pmIf memory serves me right, the only statuses the AI uses proactively are Haste and Defend.  The AI will cease to apply either once engaged with the enemy.  Only when the AI retreats or is out of range of the enemy will it reapply them.

Therefore, if we make Protect and Shell apply Defend as well, then I am sure that the AI will use these spells at the start of the match as they should.  If required, we could even scrap Defend's +Evasion, which would effectively turn the status into a dirty AI priority hack.  Unfortunately, this would require uncovering where the +Evasion is applied in ASM.

At this point it will become irrelevant, but since I've located the ASM to change Defend I may as well post it.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Evasion_Changes_due_to_Statuses (http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Evasion_Changes_due_to_Statuses)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 28, 2015, 04:17:25 pm
Ahh good to know. Thanks white knight. I'll take a look at that when I get home
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on June 28, 2015, 07:26:53 pm

From the things I've seen of arena, defend (the support) and caution aren't really used that often anyway. So if we're thinking about scrapping the evasion+ from defend, maybe we should change it so that the units don't use their defending sprite. That way it can be a "hidden status" of sorts. Nurse could still be used as a way to add regen and get some healing in but will no longer actually show them defending, and we could replace caution and defend (support) with far more useful options.



I'm all for this. Cure spells sacrificing an instant cast for a buff is a good idea, but is it enough of a trade-off?



I like this idea. Nerfing tornado/quake to MA*7 is a good plan, and I can see many possible builds with clairvoyance. The only problem I can see with this is that other mage classes might not see much use as a result.



Gastrifitis:
This weapon needs that WP nerf, maybe just down to 14 WP or so. It will still be a viable weapon for warpath/PA*WP scaling strats but will give more spotlight to lower WP ranged weapons.

Stone Gun:
Bringing the Stone Gun up to 5 or maybe even 6 range would help give it an edge over spell guns and crossbows, even if it will still have initial: petrify. Perhaps we could even change the stone gun to something else or remove the initial: petrify. I don't think we should raise the WP of it though, because WP*WP can really add up.

Demi Gun:
This sounds really cool. I am in full support of the idea. My question is, will it be a 100% demi or will it be percentage based like the spell?



Stop definitely needs to get an accuracy reduction or something.
What about adding a robe that gives +PA as well as MP? This could help with hybrid units like male samurai or paladins who have almost no MP and want a PA buff.


Even though I'm new, I feel the need to give my own two cents here. I'm actually kind of shy though, so it's difficult to make my opinions known without feeling at least slightly embarrassed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 29, 2015, 01:06:41 pm
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on June 28, 2015, 03:24:42 pm
At this point it will become irrelevant, but since I've located the ASM to change Defend I may as well post it.

http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Evasion_Changes_due_to_Statuses (http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Evasion_Changes_due_to_Statuses)[/font]


Cheers!

This is my first time looking at the code.  I did not realize how many NOPs there are!

Now that I've thought about it a little further, I wonder how the AI would respond to the change.  Would the AI refrain from attacking a defending target even when Defend adds no evasion?  This would depend on whether the AI queries the "Defend" flag or the evasion stat when making decisions.

Quote from: dw6561 on June 28, 2015, 07:26:53 pm

From the things I've seen of arena, defend (the support) and caution aren't really used that often anyway. So if we're thinking about scrapping the evasion+ from defend, maybe we should change it so that the units don't use their defending sprite. That way it can be a "hidden status" of sorts. Nurse could still be used as a way to add regen and get some healing in but will no longer actually show them defending, and we could replace caution and defend (support) with far more useful options.



I'm all for this. Cure spells sacrificing an instant cast for a buff is a good idea, but is it enough of a trade-off?



I like this idea. Nerfing tornado/quake to MA*7 is a good plan, and I can see many possible builds with clairvoyance. The only problem I can see with this is that other mage classes might not see much use as a result.



Gastrifitis:
This weapon needs that WP nerf, maybe just down to 14 WP or so. It will still be a viable weapon for warpath/PA*WP scaling strats but will give more spotlight to lower WP ranged weapons.

Stone Gun:
Bringing the Stone Gun up to 5 or maybe even 6 range would help give it an edge over spell guns and crossbows, even if it will still have initial: petrify. Perhaps we could even change the stone gun to something else or remove the initial: petrify. I don't think we should raise the WP of it though, because WP*WP can really add up.

Demi Gun:
This sounds really cool. I am in full support of the idea. My question is, will it be a 100% demi or will it be percentage based like the spell?



Stop definitely needs to get an accuracy reduction or something.
What about adding a robe that gives +PA as well as MP? This could help with hybrid units like male samurai or paladins who have almost no MP and want a PA buff.


Even though I'm new, I feel the need to give my own two cents here. I'm actually kind of shy though, so it's difficult to make my opinions known without feeling at least slightly embarrassed.


Thank you for your post, dw6561!  Allow me to provide my own comments.

The above Protect/Shell changes might be too good.  It might be better to reduce the multiplier from 7 to 6 or so.  I'll have a more informed opinion once I run through the numbers.


The scholar change might be too good, as well.  In particular, I am concerned about the stacking of Abandon with innate Clairvoyance.  The innate access to shields might be enough of a boon.  Adding an innate reaction ability to that is probably overkill.


As for the Demi gun, I think it would need 100% accuracy to be viable.  After all, it would deal only 33% of the target's max HP, which is about the same damage as a Romanda Gun, and this damage cannot be boosted by any modifiers.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 29, 2015, 02:27:15 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 29, 2015, 01:06:41 pm
Cheers!

This is my first time looking at the code.  I did not realize how many NOPs there are!

Now that I've thought about it a little further, I wonder how the AI would respond to the change.  Would the AI refrain from attacking a defending target even when Defend adds no evasion?  This would depend on whether the AI queries the "Defend" flag or the evasion stat when making decisions.

Thank you for your post, dw6561!  Allow me to provide my own comments.

The above Protect/Shell changes might be too good.  It might be better to reduce the multiplier from 7 to 6 or so.  I'll have a more informed opinion once I run through the numbers.


The scholar change might be too good, as well.  In particular, I am concerned about the stacking of Abandon with innate Clairvoyance.  The innate access to shields might be enough of a boon.  Adding an innate reaction ability to that is probably overkill.


As for the Demi gun, I think it would need 100% accuracy to be viable.  After all, it would deal only 33% of the target's max HP, which is about the same damage as a Romanda Gun, and this damage cannot be boosted by any modifiers.



About the same on general units, but harder-hitting on the high-health tanky ones.

And I thought Demi was boosted sliiiiightly by Dark Strengthening? Huh.

At least, I do remember a match that CT5 did some time ago in a 'joke' battle where Doku WANTED his lancer to be 1-shot by a Demi 2 (he had a Platina Shield) and Barren's main unit for Demi 2 had a Golden Hairpin.

Wasn't sure if it made the Demi do any more damage (aside from the weakness to Dark), though.

EDIT: Found the match, here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD1Fy7Vbfg8&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on June 29, 2015, 03:09:24 pm
Dark strengthening boosts Demi's hit chance by [MA/4]% rounded down.  A very slight improvement, indeed, but not to its damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 29, 2015, 04:03:59 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on June 29, 2015, 03:09:24 pm
Dark strengthening boosts Demi's hit chance by [MA/4]% rounded down.  A very slight improvement, indeed, but not to its damage.

Ahhh, so besides weakness there's no real way to strengthen it.

That's fair, actually.

Since Demi is 33% HP, on most units that'll do at least 100 damage (amusingly, it'll actually be weaker against mages for obvious reasons), and should do about the range of an X-Potion or a Hi-Potion on more beefy units.

Still kinda weak in comparison to the other magic guns, so potential 1-hand since you can't really power it up? Would need balanced WP for Kage/GC/Spellbreaker(?) reasons and whatnot.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on June 29, 2015, 04:15:49 pm
I wonder if demi 1/2 should get a accuracy buff because of the strengthen dark. Like bigger than before or is it OP?

Death is also dark elemental so I wonder if it should get the same accuracy buff treatment due to dark strengthen
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on June 29, 2015, 04:38:23 pm
Quote from: Barren on June 29, 2015, 04:15:49 pm
I wonder if demi 1/2 should get a accuracy buff because of the strengthen dark. Like bigger than before or is it OP?

Death is also dark elemental so I wonder if it should get the same accuracy buff treatment due to dark strengthen


It does, actually

At least that's what I thought when I made Till Death

Seems to be the case, I believe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on June 29, 2015, 04:53:54 pm
I'll go ahead and paste something from the BMG here.

[MOD 6] ~ magical attacks : success rate variable
-------------------------------------------------
Let MA0 be the caster's MA as listed on the status screen, and Y be the constant component of the spell's success rate formula. For instance, for Death, Y = 100.

1. If caster has 'Strengthen: [element of spell]', then (MA1 = [MA0 * 5/4]) else MA1 = MA0
2. If caster has Magic AttackUP, then (MA2 = [MA1 * 4/3]), else MA2 = MA1
3. If target has Magic DefendUP, then (MA3 = [MA2 * 2/3]), else MA3 = MA2
4. If target has Shell, then (MA4 = [MA3 * 2/3]), else MA4 = MA3

5. Calculate Z (Zodiac addend):                                     
If compatibility is 'Good', then Z = [MA4 / 8] + [Y / 8]         
ElseIf compatibility is 'Bad', then Z = -[MA4 / 8] - [Y / 8]        
ElseIf compatibility is 'Best', then Z = [MA4 / 4] + [Y / 4]        
ElseIf compatibility is 'Worst', then Z = -[MA4 / 4] - [Y / 4]        
Else, Z = 0                                             
6. Apply the spell's success% formula as follows:                 
success% = [(CFa+35) * (TFa+35) * (MA4 + Y + Z)) / 10000]               
If caster or target has Faith status, then CFa = 100 or TFa = 100,      
respectively.  If caster or target has Innocent status, then CFa = 0      
or TFa = 0, respectively.

Edited: Added Arena calculations for Zodiac/Faith.

This reminds me, I'd like a staff actually designed for the Time Mages, since they can't use any other weapon types. A Dark equivalent of the Mace of Zeus, for example. All you see on them are Healing Staves for the Speed boost.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 01, 2015, 08:11:03 am
A few more thoughts:

Reduce Carbuncle's MP cost from 5 to 0: From my observations, the AI prioritizes most other actions over Carbuncle, even if those actions reduce its MP below 5.  In this event, Carbuncle cannot perform the task it was assigned to do.  To accommodate this stupidity, I recommend that Carbuncle's MP cost be removed.  This will have the added benefit of becoming the only way mages can self-recover from being nuked by Bizen Boat, which will make Summon Magic more attractive.

Redesign headbands? Echoing The Damned's sentiments, what I currently see is a super-awesome headband (Chakra) and two normal ones (Focus and Choice).
Currently:

Regardless of how far these headbands are redesigned, could we at least add few status immunities -- particularly ones benefit mages, such as Silence and Berserk -- to Focus Band and remove these immunities from Chakra Band where appropriate?  We can reduce Focus Band's HP to compensate.

Buff Fairy in some way:  In most cases, the +33% HP revival of Fairy is not enough to keep the resurrected units from dying again to a single blow.  Furthermore, in teams that rely on Fairy for resurrection , and especially on large maps where units are spread out, Fairy will often be cast on a single fallen unit, so the skill's 1 AoE is seldom utilized.  In such cases, Fairy is about as useful as a very expensive Phoenix Down.  It heals for less than Raise, but costs +100 JP and +10 MP and has -25% accuracy.

I think increasing the heal to 50% would be more than enough to make Fairy, as well as Summon Magic as a whole, an effective method for damage control.  I do not expect this buff to overshadow Raise and White Magic, especially if Protect, Shell, or Regen are buffed as well.

Also, some bug checks:

Sinkhole: This skill seems to heal the undead.  Does it share a property with Blood Sword?
Break skills and Two Swords: When Shield Break succeeds on the first hit, the second hit becomes a physical attack.  Conversely, when the other break skills succeed on the first hit, the second hit displays "Break" once more.  Which function is intended?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on July 01, 2015, 09:49:58 am
I was thinking for the choice band should have HP Increased to 80 and gain innocent, faith, don't move, silence, poison, oil, and petrify protection. Maybe have initial haste removed so that way it can be a bit balanced.

You can choose between which status are you more concerned about. I think the choice band might be useful for elemental absorb + anti-oil tactics considering that monks with earth clothes and bracers while having oil protection can be strong.

I agree with Fairy getting a resurrection buff, its not good enough as it is right now.

I think summoners in general need a MA buff or their summons to hit a little harder while keeping the MA the way it is. Time mages should get at least a speed buff so again they become fast and reliable mages

@Gaignun: I think the intended function was to break then damage if break hits first. Weapon Break has it right but not the other breaks.

Shieldrender was the go to weapon for shield break/double shot but no one uses it anymore since its WP gone down. Its nerf turned out to be too harsh of a treatment for the poor sword. It made an impression a couple of years ago
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 01, 2015, 12:48:17 pm
Quote from: Barren on July 01, 2015, 09:49:58 amI was thinking for the choice band should have HP Increased to 80 and gain innocent, faith, don't move, silence, poison, oil, and petrify protection. Maybe have initial haste removed so that way it can be a bit balanced.


Weren't headbands that way in 1.38?  If I recall correctly, both Chakra and Choice gave status immunity, but players ended up choosing one over the other to block the ailments that were most common in the metagame.

We could also follow Shintroy's proposal and make one headband grant stats.  His proposal is as follows:

Quote from: ShintroySuper Ribbon - SP+1, PA+1, MA+1 +0-50 HP (See FFV/FFXI)


Although I am hesitant about the +1 PA.  If the headband gives +1 PA, then monks can reach 18 PA without an accessory.  18 PA monks with Martial Arts hit like a truck.

Quote from: Barren on July 01, 2015, 09:49:58 amI think summoners in general need a MA buff or their summons to hit a little harder while keeping the MA the way it is. Time mages should get at least a speed buff so again they become fast and reliable mages


I am fine with these changes. Giving summoners +1 MA would make them Wizards with -10 HP and +31 MP. If this difference is too great, we can adjust it by dropping summoners' HP or increasing wizards' MP.

As for Time Mages, giving them +1 SP will enable them to cast Haste on 8 SP units before those units get their first turn.  I would recommend dropping their HP or MP by 10 or so to compensate, though, or else they will far outclass the other mages at equal SP and MA. 

Quote from: Barren on July 01, 2015, 09:49:58 am@Gaignun: I think the intended function was to break then damage if break hits first. Weapon Break has it right but not the other breaks.


Ah, is that so?  Shield Break deals damage on the second hit, too.  That must mean that only Armor and Head Break are bugged.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on July 01, 2015, 02:58:01 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on July 01, 2015, 12:48:17 pm

Although I am hesitant about the +1 PA.  If the headband gives +1 PA, then monks can reach 18 PA without an accessory.  18 PA monks with Martial Arts hit like a truck.

I am fine with these changes. Giving summoners +1 MA would make them Wizards with -10 HP and +31 MP. If this difference is too great, we can adjust it by dropping summoners' HP or increasing wizards' MP.

As for Time Mages, giving them +1 SP will enable them to cast Haste on 8 SP units before those units get their first turn.  I would recommend dropping their HP or MP by 10 or so to compensate, though, or else they will far outclass the other mages at equal SP and MA.


Yes, but a 18 PA monk (without an accessory) would now only be able to have an HP of 265. This would make them very squishy and likely to be targeted first. So, I'd be okay with that (if The HP given for wearing this is 0. If it is 50 or close to it, I would say drop the +1 speed at least.)

I've always thought at the very least the summoner needs to have at least as much HP as the lowest Mage class (like TM or Scholar). I don't know that boosting their MA is an idea that I agree with, since their skill set uses smart targeting, but they need an HP bump at the very least.

With the TM, the speed is really the only thing they currently have going for them. Their HP is low, their MA is not great (compared to other mages) and even the speed could become an issue on some of their skills (many TM skills are most advantageous going after the enemy or ally moves, not before.) so I think it is okay to boost them a bit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 01, 2015, 03:07:35 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on July 01, 2015, 02:58:01 pm
Yes, but a 18 PA monk (without an accessory) would now only be able to have an HP of 265. This would make them very squishy and likely to be targeted first. So, I'd be okay with that (if The HP given for wearing this is 0. If it is 50 or close to it, I would say drop the +1 speed at least.)


I suppose if it grants no HP, then the PA is OK.  If it grants 50 HP, though, I would rather drop the PA than the SP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on July 01, 2015, 05:42:57 pm
I would agree that time mage is very lacking in stats, but I don't know about giving them +1 speed. There are no other mage classes with 9 speed at the moment. There would be a huge gap in speed, especially if we don't drop the speed boost on healing staff. I also feel like it's too easy to get 12 speed there without any significant drawbacks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 01, 2015, 08:14:58 pm
It's always a joy to hear gaignun's theories!  Also welcome back.  I'd be in favor of Time Mage getting bumped up to 10 speed of the Time Mage Skills hadn't also gotten a buff.  I think at this point we will just have to either give Time Mage worse stats and give them 10 speed or keep them at 9 speed but improve the time mage stats directly.  Don't forget when you improve skills you're also indirectly improving the skills when other classes choose Time Magic as a secondary skill.  If we we improve the TM stats I'd like to increase HP by approximately 20 and increase MP by 10.

RE: Summoner I wouldn't mind seeing them get a huge buff to MP; a 40 mp boost doesn't sound all that crazy to me especially considering how expensive summon magic is.  This has the added benefit of Summoners not really needing to invest in boosting their MP with clothes if they don't want too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 02, 2015, 04:00:30 am
I'm honoured that you remember me, reinoe.  It's nice to see that you are still around.

Quote from: reinoe on July 01, 2015, 08:14:58 pmRE: Summoner I wouldn't mind seeing them get a huge buff to MP; a 40 mp boost doesn't sound all that crazy to me especially considering how expensive summon magic is.  This has the added benefit of Summoners not really needing to invest in boosting their MP with clothes if they don't want too.


This is another option, indeed.  At their current MP of 118, I think they can already manage to cast low-tier summons with full HP gear. 1.39's Black Hood buff is just too good; even when you aim for high HP, you get a decent MP boost on the side.  An MP boost to summoners would mostly be felt with the high-tier summons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on July 02, 2015, 05:37:34 am
What if Arena got the MP Switch from Jot5? It works like Vanilla MP switch, but converts excess MP damage into HP instead of only dealing MP damage. This makes balanced since you can't abuse the reaction with Move-MP Up. With this we might see more versatile casters being made using underused/unused melee weapons like Ultima Weapon, Poles, Books, and other MA based/proccing weapons. I'd give it


With or Without MP Switch, Summoner definitly needs a buff in stats. Maybe 10 Class Evasion and +20 MP.

Carbuncle needs to have an MP requirement to be balanced. With so many ways to replenish MP I hardly see a reason to have Carbunkle at zero MP cost.

Fairy's fine as is. 33% HP recovery and has an AoE of 1? Pretty good if you ask me. Besides, changing an ability just because it's not effective against a certain strategy isn't balancing. We'd have to buff every revival ability including Raise 2, because there's many unit that can KO units at 100% HP.

There aren't enough people using the skillset to make any huge change. Lich just started getting used. Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh being unevadable, 3 CT, and MA*8 aren't used. What ever happened to Zodiac spamming mime teams?


Some changes

Genji Shield - Remove Dead/DS immunity for Immune Darkness.
I like the idea of having a shield for casters and one for melee units.

Mage Masher - 33% Bizen Boat up from 25%.
I believe it was at 33% in 138 too. Didn't really see the need to nerf.

Light Robe, P Bag - Immune Poison.
With this there's no reason to have multiple poison immune accessories.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on July 02, 2015, 07:46:50 am
Quote from: Shintroy on July 02, 2015, 05:37:34 am
What if Arena got the MP Switch from Jot5? It works like Vanilla MP switch, but converts excess MP damage into HP instead of only dealing MP damage. This makes balanced since you can't abuse the reaction with Move-MP Up. With this we might see more versatile casters being made using underused/unused melee weapons like Ultima Weapon, Poles, Books, and other MA based/proccing weapons. I'd give it


With or Without MP Switch, Summoner definitly needs a buff in stats. Maybe 10 Class Evasion and +20 MP.

Carbuncle needs to have an MP requirement to be balanced. With so many ways to replenish MP I hardly see a reason to have Carbunkle at zero MP cost.

Fairy's fine as is. 33% HP recovery and has an AoE of 1? Pretty good if you ask me. Besides, changing an ability just because it's not effective against a certain strategy isn't balancing. We'd have to buff every revival ability including Raise 2, because there's many unit that can KO units at 100% HP.

There aren't enough people using the skillset to make any huge change. Lich just started getting used. Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh being unevadable, 3 CT, and MA*8 aren't used. What ever happened to Zodiac spamming mime teams?


Some changes

Genji Shield - Remove Dead/DS immunity for Immune Darkness.
I like the idea of having a shield for casters and one for melee units.

Mage Masher - 33% Bizen Boat up from 25%.
I believe it was at 33% in 138 too. Didn't really see the need to nerf.

Light Robe, P Bag - Immune Poison.
With this there's no reason to have multiple poison immune accessories.


"Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh being unevadable, 3 CT, and MA*8 aren't used"

My tournament team's Wizard has them specifically because they're unevadable.

And I wouldn't rule out the other offered options.

Though Summoner gaining Class Evasion is kinda pointless because casting. Even if Gaignun's evasion-allowing reaction becomes a thing, that's nowhere near enough to make me want to use a Summoner.

As for Fairy and Carbunkle? Well, while yes there are ways to restore MP easily (say, Move-MP UP)... (and do try counting on your hands the number of times you've seen Fairy revive more than one unit and not have one of said units immediately dropped. If buffing it to Raise levels is still a no in your book, have it resurrect at a guaranteed HP total: say, 150.)

Move MP UP is very expensive. I don't always want to use it because of this. The thing about MP Restoration is that while it's a huge priority to cover with any mage, it also shouldn't be forced that you HAVE to use the best, or the same skills over and over just to keep the unit effective.



And I do want to point out somewhat sarcastically that while the thread and such is called the "Balance Discussion Thread", it's also the place to discuss changes to the patch to keep things fresh and allow for more creative ways to make teams, not sit on the metagame that exists.

Dunno about you guys, but I find the current one (speed and status) kinda boring.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on July 02, 2015, 08:02:12 am
Summoners having more innate MP is actually not a bad idea as well because they have abysmal HP so giving them the options of high HP clothes or even equip armor for status protection is encouraged more so.

Time Mages losing HP and MP might be a bit much because then unless you giving them some means of defense up/auto protect then they can get one shotted more easily. Then again that would compensate for the 10 speed time mages. The reason I would suggest then the 10 speed because if you're going for spells that short charge would be too much to get JP wise then Defense Up + Move-MP up can help them out better.

Short Charge if anything should move back to the Time Mage support ability. Summoners have Short Charge and Half of MP. I think moving at least one of them to the Time Mage support ability slot would make it more fair between the two.

Plus a lot fo people like to use white + time magic with short charge and shouldn't have to feel to restricted to have an extra time magic spell because of the extra 250 JP they spend unlocking the summoner class.

On another subject, I think lances should get reworked because the breathe procs while can chip away I don't see them being useful at all (unless on a equip polearm samurai which we haven't really seen yet). They should at least get elemental weapon properties like the long bows have or give them innate effects like initial protect or something. Makes lancers a little more tankier
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 02, 2015, 01:19:25 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on July 02, 2015, 05:37:34 amCarbuncle needs to have an MP requirement to be balanced. With so many ways to replenish MP I hardly see a reason to have Carbunkle at zero MP cost.


I understand that there are other ways to replenish MP, but all the 5 MP cost accomplishes on paper is having a naked summoner replenish 61 MP instead of 66.  There is a second, much bigger cost, and that involves the AI not knowing how to proactively replenish MP before dropping below 5 MP.  We players would never make the mistake of depleting our summoner's MP below Carbunkle's MP cost, but the AI does so time and time again.

Quote from: Reks on July 02, 2015, 07:46:50 am
"Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh being unevadable, 3 CT, and MA*8 aren't used"

My tournament team's Wizard has them specifically because they're unevadable.


Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh are really good, huh?  I think they are being slept on, myself.  They and Flare are currently the only faith-based spells that ignore M-EV, so they're great counters to high faith, high M-EV teams.  The other summons acted as counters, too, before they became affected by M-EV.  In fact, precisely because of these three summons, I think that giving summoners +1 MA would be overcompensating.

I encourage people to try out 12 MA summoners with Magic Attack UP and elemental strengthening.  These units deal 126~176 AoE damage at 100% accuracy.  It's like an AoE Romanda Gun.

@Barren: I agree with Time Mages needing a support ability.  Summoners should share one of theirs.  My vote is for Half of MP.  This will make it easier for low-MP classes like Thieves to use Time Magick sustainably.  Summoners themselves have little use for this support ability with their giant MP pools.

Also, I recall reading elsewhere that FFMaster was considering redesigning Lances.  I'm not sure where that discussion ended up.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on July 02, 2015, 03:23:36 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on July 02, 2015, 01:19:25 pm
I understand that there are other ways to replenish MP, but all the 5 MP cost accomplishes on paper is having a naked summoner replenish 61 MP instead of 66.  There is a second, much bigger cost, and that involves the AI not knowing how to proactively replenish MP before dropping below 5 MP.  We players would never make the mistake of depleting our summoner's MP below Carbunkle's MP cost, but the AI does so time and time again.

Shiva, Ifrit, and Ramuh are really good, huh?  I think they are being slept on, myself.  They and Flare are currently the only faith-based spells that ignore M-EV, so they're great counters to high faith, high M-EV teams.  The other summons acted as counters, too, before they became affected by M-EV.  In fact, precisely because of these three summons, I think that giving summoners +1 MA would be overcompensating.

I encourage people to try out 12 MA summoners with Magic Attack UP and elemental strengthening.  These units deal 126~176 AoE damage at 100% accuracy.  It's like an AoE Romanda Gun.

@Barren: I agree with Time Mages needing a support ability.  Summoners should share one of theirs.  My vote is for Half of MP.  This will make it easier for low-MP classes like Thieves to use Time Magick sustainably.  Summoners themselves have little use for this support ability with their giant MP pools.

Also, I recall reading elsewhere that FFMaster was considering redesigning Lances.  I'm not sure where that discussion ended up.


I wouldn't argue that they're "really" good.

My Wizard has 14 MA and a Black Robe, and she does within that same damage range that you're referring to.

I did have a choice between the higher damage summons, or the low damage-but-unevadable ones that could easily be boosted slightly by a Black Robe.

At the moment, I think that giving the Summoner's a boost to MP and, say, 1 MA (or access to something like Books)

Would make them more desirable without making them TOO much stronger.




After all, it IS easy to create a nuke regardless of the single-stat difference
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 03, 2015, 03:25:00 pm
Some blue-sky brainstorming here.

Summoner
Stats
M: 103 HP, 141 MP※, 8 SP, 3 PA, 9 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
F: 096 HP, 148 MP※, 8 SP, 2 PA, 11 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV

※ Actual MP values will vary depending on MPM.

Summon Magic
Moogle: 4 Range, 3 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, Heal_F(MA*9), 50 JP
Shiva: Unchanged
Ramuh: Unchanged
Ifrit: Unchanged
Leviathan: 4 Range, 3 AoE, 3 Vert, 4 CT, 25 MP, Water element, Dmg_F(MA*8), 150 JP, Ignores M-EV, 20% Cancel: All positive statii removed
Salamander: 4 Range, 3 AoE, 3 Vert, 4 CT, 25 MP, Fire element, Dmg_F(MA*8), 150 JP, Ignores M-EV, 50% Add: Oil removed
Titan: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 5 CT, 35 MP, Earth element, Dmg_F(MA*10), 200 JP, Ignores M-EV
Fairy: 4 Range, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 4 CT, 25 MP, Heal_(50%) Hit_F(MA+75)%, Cancel: Dead, 200 JP
Carbunkle: 4 Range, 3 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 0 MP, HealMP_(60%), 250 JP
Silf: Unchanged
Odin: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 6 CT, 45 MP, Dark element, Dmg_F(MA*9), 20% Add: Dead, Ignores M-EV, 200 JP
Bahamut: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 7 CT, 45 MP, Dmg_F(MA*12), Ignores M-EV, Remove smart targeting to impede mime teams? Bahamut is a dragon breathing fire all the way from space; he can't be bothered to distinguish friend from foe, 300 JP
Lich: Unchanged
Cyclops: 4 Range, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 5 CT, 30 MP, Holy element, Dmg_F(MA*9), Ignores M-EV, 20% Add: Blind removed, 200 JP
Zodiac: 4 Range, 3 AoE, 99 Vert, 6 CT, 45 MP, Dmg_F(MA*9), Ignores M-EV, 300 JP
MP Restore: Unchanged
Half of MP: Moved to Time Magic
Short Charge: Unchanged

Arguments:


Quote from: Reks on July 02, 2015, 03:23:36 pmAt the moment, I think that giving the Summoner's a boost to MP and, say, 1 MA (or access to something like Books)


I think summoners already have access to books.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on July 03, 2015, 07:22:43 pm
I like alot of the ideas here. But What about time magic? Haste/Slow 1 are garbage compared to haste/slow 2 because of accuracy issues. you really need to do an all mage team with best compat and high faith to even attempt to do it. And that can be impossible sometimes. I'd say swap the accuracy around between haste/slow 1 & 2 s that way while haste/slow 2 can still keep its CT and AoE its accuracy would be reduced a little bit as a trade off. That's what I think anyways.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on July 04, 2015, 12:23:30 am
OK, I'm back with a nice long break. I haven't been able to keep up with the balance changes at all for the year, and have only skimmed the past few pages, but it looks like I might finally have to make a decision on where to take Scholar. Here are a few random thoughts:

- Wizard has no more space for spells, so cannot be given the Bio spells unless we lose something like say... Water or things like Frog/Death/Flare/Poison.

- Priest has always had problems with Protect/Shell. I've tried multiple things before. The current easiest way is to use the Raise formula, which will heal a % amount and add status. Rewriting the Cure spells to accept status may be possible, depending on how friendly the game is.

- I'm sure most people saw Time Mages bonus speed as more of a liability than a help, since 9 base speed means you will be more likely to act first, rather than last, like you want a mage to. I have no ideas on how to keep the class unique while fitting the theme of a time mage. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

- I like the change to Jump. Along with that, there were some Spear changes in the background, as everyone knows.
Gungnir - Spear that ignores evasion
Ethereal Spear - Spear that deals only MP damage

- I really dislike Daggers adding speed. This stat was a major problem in early versions of Arena, among other things. The weapon just became used because it added 1 speed, and other skills were cast instead, making all daggers look the same except the ones with other benefits (evasion, PA, MA)

- The new reaction to give P-EV/M-EV to casting/performing characters sounds good. I can definitely make it, or attach it to another reacion (most likely Awareness) as well.

- As far as Defend support goes, for 139 I spent about a week trying to make it not use up an action. Needless to say, I failed miserably. Which is why it's there, pretty much acting as a noob trap.

- I can definitely add new weapons and stuff, like a staff made solely for Time Mages, or whatever archetype is needed.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on July 04, 2015, 03:19:41 am
Quote from: FFMaster on July 04, 2015, 12:23:30 am
OK, I'm back with a nice long break. I haven't been able to keep up with the balance changes at all for the year, and have only skimmed the past few pages, but it looks like I might finally have to make a decision on where to take Scholar. Here are a few random thoughts:

- Wizard has no more space for spells, so cannot be given the Bio spells unless we lose something like say... Water or things like Frog/Death/Flare/Poison.

- Priest has always had problems with Protect/Shell. I've tried multiple things before. The current easiest way is to use the Raise formula, which will heal a % amount and add status. Rewriting the Cure spells to accept status may be possible, depending on how friendly the game is.

- I'm sure most people saw Time Mages bonus speed as more of a liability than a help, since 9 base speed means you will be more likely to act first, rather than last, like you want a mage to. I have no ideas on how to keep the class unique while fitting the theme of a time mage. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

- I like the change to Jump. Along with that, there were some Spear changes in the background, as everyone knows.
Gungnir - Spear that ignores evasion
Ethereal Spear - Spear that deals only MP damage

- I really dislike Daggers adding speed. This stat was a major problem in early versions of Arena, among other things. The weapon just became used because it added 1 speed, and other skills were cast instead, making all daggers look the same except the ones with other benefits (evasion, PA, MA)

- The new reaction to give P-EV/M-EV to casting/performing characters sounds good. I can definitely make it, or attach it to another reacion (most likely Awareness) as well.

- As far as Defend support goes, for 139 I spent about a week trying to make it not use up an action. Needless to say, I failed miserably. Which is why it's there, pretty much acting as a noob trap.

- I can definitely add new weapons and stuff, like a staff made solely for Time Mages, or whatever archetype is needed.


Glad to have you back!

Would be good for a whole overview of the proposed changes made in one post. I guess I can try at it after finishing up the last bit of hiring at my new job later today, but it'll be the 4th of July and I work early early tomorrow, so I'll have to see.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Zotis on July 04, 2015, 03:41:27 am
If you're going to drop anything from Wizard for Bio, maybe Poison?  It seems like a spell that no one ever uses.  Please don't consider dropping Flare/Frog/Death though, I love them on Wizards.  Maybe consider dropping Water.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on July 04, 2015, 06:24:38 am
Or move the water spells to the scholar class if you're looking to make room.

@FFMaster: We were discussing the Time Mage class and we we're thinking that maybe give time mages 10 speed while losing 10 HP/MP to compensate. You can make Time Mages with Half of MP without the need of short charge if you're at a base 10 speed and you can give them full hp/mp clothes without having to resort to giving them low HP gear for the sake of speed
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on July 04, 2015, 06:55:47 am
Welcome back FFMaster. Surprised to see a MP damaging weapon being suggested. I'd still prefer it on a ranged item since it can be paired with WP*PA abilities



Main Class - I think everyone can agree on summoner needing a slight HP buff to be a bit more viable as a main class and a bigger MP pool since summoner's known for being leagues ahead of all classes in MP.

Skillset - Summoner has a strong set of abilities in versatility, but I havne't really seen anyone really try to make use of it. Probably due to summoner having no answer for status effect or buffs making it hard to me to sole. Smart targetting makes summons not work on absorb teams and also makes the AI one demensional, only using summon magic offensively or defensively. Not really a bad thing since mimic summon is even stronger now due to Mime getting buffed in 139.

Moogle - Fine as is. MA*9 and Ally only?

Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh - Fine as is. 3 CT. Unevadable. 2 AoE paired with Magic Attack UP and strengthen element they're pretty strong spells at only 12 MA. As far as I know there hasn't been a strong showing with these spells.

Leviathan, Salamander - Needs a buff. I recommend 4 CT. Makes the spells more versatile instead of automatically being paired with Short Charge. Leviathan could use a 25-33% cancel status proc up from 20. MA*8 is fine sine these two have 3 AoE.

Titan - MA*9. 4 CT. Quake will still be stronger since it has a room place on absorb teams and may recieve a CT nerf. (I recommend 3 CT nerf for quake/tornado)

Fairy - Fine as is. 33% is more than enough HP to recover with. There's also always a chance of it hitting more than one unit since 1 AoE abilities are a thing.

Carbunkle - Fine as is.

Silf - Nerf to 4 CT. I'd reorganize summon magic so this is paired with the other tier 2 summons(Leviathan,Sala, Titan).

Odin - Buff to 5 CT

Bahamut - Buff to 6 CT

Lich - F(MA+55%) is questionable. I'd say fine as is since it's only been used  recently in 139.

Cyclops - The Holy Element is pretty weak at the moment as a whole. I'd call this a fine spell since it can be easily strengthened with Golden Hairpin and Prismatic Rod. Maybe at most get a 4 CT buff since it's holy elemental.

Zodiac - Fine as is. I haven't seen team use Zodiac in 139. It was great in with mime before since mime had incredible base stats.

Half of MP - Move to Time Mage


MP Restore/Short Charge - fine as is. I recommended CT buffs to and even number so summoner can make the most out of its own support ability. Summoner's MP recovery only comes into question rarely. Bizen Boat tends to be the only ability that can cripple a summoner only using Carbunkle for MP recovery.



No need to go back to 1.3 dagger with the SP. Where is the Damned when we need him ;;



Time Mage at 9 SP needs to stick. There's always Priest/White Magic for an 8 SP Haste 2 unit Priest has better status than Time Mage outside of SP so why is this a problem? Staple builds shouldn't have to suffer because no one's willing to explore other builds. Besides, if Haste and Slow 1 got buffs there wouldn't be as much of a problem with Time Mage being so linear. More JP for Time Magic units to spend makes for more progress to be made.

Haste/Slow - Buff to 75%

Stop - Nerf to 55%-60%. Hit rate is way too high on 40 faith units. At 60% it's just as powerful as Oracle's tier 2 spells Paralyze and Sleep.

Don't Move - Maybe change to enemy only and loser the hit%. 

Demi/Demi 2 - Underused spells. If it doesn't already do Max HP damage change it to that. Otherwise fine as is since the main reason people don't use it is due to JP restrictions and Demi being included with status spells.

If Time Mage gets the Half MP support the underused time magics will get more attention.



If there were more reflect options I think there would be a better caster/anti caster meta.

I'm all for Protect and Shell getting a low HP% heal so the AI uses them when needed. Regen could probably get the same treatment without it being OP. Masamune's used to remove poison and adds Haste. Why can't regen get the same treatment, but heal for a low percentage?

Protect/Shell - Heal 10% Hit_F(MA+75-80%) Add Status. 1 CT

Protect2/Shell2 - Heal 20% Hit_F(MA+90-100%) Add Status. 3 CT

Regen - Heal 10% Hit_F(MA+100%) Add Regen.  1 CT

Wall - Fine as is as an instant 100% hit buff.

Iron Will A Add Protect, Shell, Defend. Probably a bit much since it's likely the AI will use it at the start of the match. This takes away from Ragnarok and Save the Queen

Nurse - Fine as is. Adding critical only might cause more bad than good. 

Mad Science - With buffs to Regen, Paladin having a better Reraisee, and the AI not being able to use this to counter earth at 4CT , Scholar could do without this abililty. (replace with Dark Holy maybe?)


I'll wait for the AI tourament to be over to talk about the current meta. SP plays a huge part a team's success and being able to increase and decrease it mid battle is a bit overpowered. If SP altering abilities are removed entirely we can buff cursed ring to maybe 66% revival so more jobs can use the item reliably. Having another 9 sP class like Summoner or buffing SP gear would be more well recieved if SP stacking was removed as well.

I'm all for there being a reaction that allows for evasion during casting. Including it into awareness could definitely work since. Would this give berserked units evasion as well? 10/10 change if so.


I've made some tables for better comparison.

Elemental Abilities, by accessibility (139c)

Element     Jobs (# of abilities)               Target type
Fire        Wz(3),Su(2),Ge(2),Sm(1)             AoE(8)
Ice         Wz(3),Su(1),Ge(1),Sc(1)             AoE(5),Map(1)
Lightning   Wz(3),Su(1),Sc(1)                   AoE(4),Map(1)
Water       Wz(3),Su(1),Ge(2),Nj(1),Sc(1)       Single(1),AoE(6),Map(1)
Wind        Mk(1),Su(1),Ge(3),Sm(1),Nj(1),Sc(1) Single(2),AoE(5),Map(1)
Earth       Mk(1),Su(1),Ge(1),Sm(1),Sc(1)       Single(1),AoE(3),Linear(2)
Dark        Wz(1),Tm(2),Su(1),Sm(1),Nj(1),Sc(2) Single(2),AoE(5),Map(1)
Holy        Pr(2),Su(1)                         Single(2),AoE(1)



Fire
Fire, Nether Fire, Fire 2, Ifrit, Salamander, Demon Fire, Lava Ball, Asura
Ice
Ice, Nether Ice, Ice 2, Shiva, Blizzard, Rime Bolt
Lightning
Bolt, Nether Bolt, Bolt 2, Ramuh, Thunder Flare
Water
Water, Nether Water, Water 2, Leviathan, Water Ball, Quicksand, Suiton, Maelstrom
Wind
Wave Fist, Silf, Kamaitachi, Sand Storm, Gusty Wind, Heaven's Cloud, Fuuton, Tornado
Earth
Earth Slash, Titan, Local Quake, Kikuichimoji, Earth Dragon, Quake
Dark
Death, Demi, Demi 2, Odin, Koutetsu, Meiton, Shadow Shade, Bio 3
Holy
Dia, Holy, Cyclops



Elemental Weapons, by type (139c)

Element     Formula Type                      Distance
Fire        PA(2), MA(1), Faith(1)            Melee(3), Ranged(1)
Ice         PA(1), MA(1), PA/SP(1), Faith(1)  Melee(2), Ranged(2)
Lightning   MA(2), PA/SP(1), Faith(1)         Melee(2), Ranged(2)
Water       PA(1), MA(1), WP(1)               Melee(3)
Wind        PA(1), PA/SP(3), WP(1)            Melee(4), Ranged(1)
Earth       PA(2), PA/SP(1)                   Melee(3)
Dark        PA(1), WP(1)                      Melee(2)
Holy        PA(2), MA(1), PA/SP(1)            Melee(3), Ranged(1)



Fire
Phoenix Blade, Asura Knife, Flame Rod, Blaze Gun
Ice
Ice Brand, Ice Rod, Glacier Gun, Ice Bow
Lightning
Thunder Rod, Mace of Zeus, Blast Gun, Lightning Bow
Water
Coral Sword, Aspergillum, Whale Whisker
Wind
Air Knife, Iga Knife, Heaven's Cloud, Spiked Fuuton, Windslash Bow
Earth
Koga Knife, Kikuichimonji, Giant Axe
Dark
Koutestsu, Sadists whip
Holy
Excalibur, White Staff, Silver Bow, Holy Lance
All (not in table)

Rainbow Staff


The idea of having Lightning on Elemental could work but I think 'Enemy Only' should be removed too. Not like friendly fire happens often with that anyway. If that's really an issue, Shields could get a status immunity to whatever they absorb (e.g. Mythril Shield gets Immune: Petrify to cancel the Petrify procs from Local Quake). As for weapons, well the Dragon Breath proc spears could actually have their respective elements. Maybe something like the Ninja Edge could be Lightning elemental too.

[/quote]


Holy Elemental weapons could use some changes. Cursed Ring being the biggest counter to the holy element isn't as big of a problem for weapons mainly used by classes that counter undead. Silver Bow has Seal Evil. Excalibur has Consecration. White Staff is a terrible item as it is since Healing staff strengthens holy, has 12 WP and +1 SP. Definitely in the novelty item category at the moment. Holy Lance can only be used by Lancer and while jump is non elemental, it's not as reliable since Jump is too situational as is.



Main Class - Makes for a mediocre jump unit, but works better using some secondary since it has Javelin, armor and shields. Probably on the same level as summoner in terms of viablity maybe worse since Jump's pretty bad

Jump - Jump CT being based off of Jump instead of SP would definitely make lancers the best class for using jump since Laner currently has the highest base Jump in the game. Changing Jump's element to weapon sounds like a good idea as well. If not then give Jump the option to be paired up with Attack UP.

Spears - These suggustions as based off of Jump CT being changed.

Javelin 10 WP, +1 SP, +1 Jump - 2H Yes

Ice Lance/Spear 11 WP, Ice Element, +1 Jump 2H Yes (Kaiser Shield vs 2H)

Lava Spear - 13 WP Fire Element, +1 Jump 2H Yes

Gae Bolg 12 WP Lightning Element, +1 Jump, 2H Yes

Mythril Spear - 9-11 WP, +2 MA, +1 Jump, 2H No (Keep in mind Lnc can use poles)

Holy Lance 10-14 WP, Holy Elemental +1 Jump, Strengthen Holy(?) 2H(?)

Gungnir A 12-14 WP, Always Transparent, +1 Jump 2H No(not OP since Jump is already 100%)

Gungnir B 10-14 WP, Dark elemental, +1 Jump  20% Add Dead 2H No

Dragon Whisker 13 WP +1 PA +1 Jump 2H Yes (Not as OP as 2H Katar since Lancer can't stack PA like Thief could Stack SP) Even if Lancer

Main Class Lancer - If Spears and Jump alone got buffed then Lancer automatically becomes a better class with 139 stats. If SP boosting gets removed then give Lancer 9SP. If a +1 SP Helm gets introduced at all then keep lancer at 8 SP.



Bad Luck What about making this a random add buff/debuff similar to the juggler class from FFTA?

2 CT, MP 10, Hit 100%, 1 Range,  100% Random Add Haste, Slow, Death Sentence, Regen

No idea how the AI will act with this. I'm sure there's a combination that makes the AI only use this on enemies without making it only target enemies.

Spell Absorb, Life Drain Instead of going by % make it go by MA* or Max MA/PA*

Non Elemental Geomancy Dmg (((PA/2)+2)*MA+1 or 2

Elemental Geomancy Dmg_ ((PA+2)/2*(MA+1)

Mudvayne requested a buff to Geomancy/Elemental. I think giving giving non elemental geomancy a better formula and slightly boosting elemental geomancy damage is the best way to go.


Death Sentence Currently unused due to some items not being immune to both dead and death sentence. I'm looking forward to these items being fixed and the return of defensive and absorb teams using death sentence.

Gold Armor, Genji Shield mainly. Chammeleon Robe and Angel Ring could be looked at to be safe.

Mirror Shield I like the idea of this being Always reflect. Raise 2 might have to be unreflectable with this in the game. I can see a lot of cursed ring units being paired up with This shield like Flash Hat was in the past. Cure 4 and Raise 2 will still be able to take down Cursed Ring units. It's not like Cursed ring is 100% revival anyway.


Fire and Ice Shield can remain the same.

Wizard and Dracula Mantle can remain the same

Genji Shield Make it the polar opposite of Aegis Shield. 5 M-EV, 30 P-EV. Immune Darkness +1 PA.

Mythril, Gold, Diamond, Platina Shield Give each shield 2  status immunity from the armor and helmet.

Gold Shield - Immune Frog, Dead, Death Sentence

Mythril Shield - There's no Mythril Armor and Immune Slow could be on Zephyr Shield. Either Immune Faith/Inonocent or replaced by Mirror Shield

Platina -Immune Poison, Stop (maybe combined 139 crystal shield and platina helm)

Diamond - Immune Don't move, Berserk

Zephyr Shield - Name Change Immune Slow. (giving sprint shoes and this the same slow immunity either balances SP stacking or unbalances it since you can have 4 units with +1 SP and slow immunity)

Crystal Shield - P-EV 15% M-EV 15% Immune Oil, Neutral All Elements

Escutcheon II - Fine as is.

Small Mantle - There's already Feather Boots and Float for earth immunity. Holy isn't affected by the oil changes in 139. Not sure what this can be changed to really

Vanish Mantle - Initial Transparent.




Clothes - Why not make them  similar to Harps stat and effect wise?

Persia - +2 PA , 12 WP

Cashmere - Heal HP 12 WP (gives dancer more options with Kagesougi, Hawk's eye and other PA*WP abilities)

Ryozan Silk - There's no opposite of Charm so what about giving Dancer a 100% Cancel positive status weapon? If it's possible to make this 100% cancel charging then give it that instead.

--------------
10 SP Time Mage sounds like a bit much. I'm all for it if SP stacking is removed and Cursed Ring gets a slight increase in revival %. Looking forward to Rainbow Staff, 12 SP Cursed Ring Balance Time Mage.

---------------

Is it possible for brown to be replaced by brown without changing the crystal colors? If so can we swap it in? Brown's the least used color in 139 and purple was a popular color when it worked so I don't see why not.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
FFMaster! Welcome back...good to see you.

I have limited time on a laptop so I'm gonna get right into it...I'd been saying for a while I was going to post about the shields and other things here...but haven't had the opportunity.

Anyway, I'll try to spoiler everything so people reading only have to read what they might be interested in.


I think Shields definitely need a refreshing...I'll go over them here.

Aegis Shield: Only Shield I think is actually somewhat OP. 30% M-EV +1 MA and Immunity to Silence? That's not so bad except when you see that its counterpart (either the Genji Shield or the Crystal Shield, depending on how you look at them, but I'll get to them in a minute) don't reach quite the same measure. Most people relying on MA (not all mind you but quite a few) will have a large benefit with immunity to silence while giving themselves a hefty defense against enemy magic. But the other shields provide immunities to a status which may or may not be relevant (Okay, Immunity to dead could always be relevant to any unit, but it isn't a status like Berserk or Silence that makes the unit pretty much a waste.) I think decreasing this shield's evasion to match Genji's P-EV is in order or perhaps just Double (at 20% M-EV). (I do realize that since they'll be using magic sometimes and therefore charging, the evade won't come into play so it's helpful to be slightly above its counterpart but I think 30% is a bit much considering everything else you get.)

Zephyr Shield/Swift Plate: Fine as it is...I know Barren advocated boosting this shield a little bit, but in reality, this shield gives a speed point which is helpful all across the board. This can kind of be a free point of speed for many units and gives slight evasion to boot, so I don't think this needs a boost.

Genji Shield: I think this shield is fine as it is, also. It provides an immunity to a status that is universally helpful while providing PA and slight evasion. It's a solid contender among some of the other shields.

Escutcheon II: This shield seems fine as well. It's used on evasion tanks and increasing the evasion may not be what's best.

Kaiser Plate: Good for Grand Crossers with the Air Knife and Ice Brand, specifically. I think a decent dark weapon needs to be added to give this shield max potential without being OP but we can discuss that later...

Crystal Shield: I think this is a terrible shield in current gameplay. In the last patch, it had more overall evasion which I think made it a bit more tempting. However, now I just feel it's kinda bad. Sure, it grants immunity to Oil and neutralizes all elements, but the only set up that could be relevant with is with the cursed ring and trying to get rid of the fire weakness. And the immunity to Oil is wasted on this particular unit since dark isn't affected by oil (with the exception of equipping your unit with something else that absorbs an element.) So, in essence, the only unit that could take full advantage of this shield is a highly physical evasive unit who is wearing a cursed ring that is on an elemental absorb team that isn't absorbing Dark or Fire...hmmm...

Furthermore, another drawback of this shield is that it actually hampers the effectiveness of other equipment including the widely used Flash Hat and White Robe. This will actually backfire on those units negating the halving of those pieces of equipment.

Finally, it could even backfire on that set up since a unit could evade its own absorb from its teammates (or itself, though that's kind of a chance with any unit running any type of evade and using elemental ways to heal themselves.)

What I think should happen will be listed below after I discuss...

Every Other Shield: I'm not a fan of any of the other shields. They could be useful if it weren't for the "Weak: X" following the element they absorb. I get that it's for dual absorbing elements and making teams that can absorb several. But the drawback of the shield will sometimes make it a liability and harder to build equipment around. I think they can at least get rid of the Weak: X but that's just me.

I think the Shields should give initial buffs. (Initial Haste, Protect, Shell, Reflect, Innocent and Faith; one of these on each that currently Absorb/Weak to elements) and the Crystal Shield should be a shield that absorbs water, since there are only two pieces of equipment that currently grant water absorb.



If I don't mention a class, I think it's fine.

Monk: I'd like to see the female have an initial 11 PA if possible. They only have one more MA than the male but trail the male by three points in PA...Female Monks are good for tanky dancing and not much else, unfortunately.

Squire: I'd like to see Heal actually cure Berserk (only Refute and Echo Grass currently do).

Chemist: Is it possible they can get something that can cure Charm? I'm not saying I actually want this but it'd be interesting to see how people feel.

Priest: I'd like to see Regen be an instant cast...I think it would be used more often and the unit can feel the effects immediately.

Wizard: I wouldn't mind seeing the water spells swapped with the Bio spells...this would make the Scholar have ALL elemental spells while the Wizard would have some elemental and some not.

Time Mage: I guess I wouldn't mind seeing a 10 Speed TM with making the necessary HP/MP adjustments. After all, Thieves are a really good class and the Time Mage doesn't have great stats going for it, so I'd be alright with increasing the speed while decreasing HP/MP.  Also, Chrono Trigger...it's a nifty idea, but I was thinking maybe Sunken State (moved to Thief or something) or making this the "Mage evasion" reaction.

Summoner: I looked over Gaignun's suggestions and thought they sounded pretty good...I'd be fine seeing those changes I think (including moving Half of MP to TM).


Thief: Bad Luck is pretty terrible, I have to say. I looked at Shintroy's idea, and I'd be okay with something like that if the risk/reward ratio was higher for the attacking unit. For example: 100% Add Random: Dead, Petrify, Reraise, Regen. Then, there's a 50% chance that unit is going down or getting a decent buff, and that's fair since the move still costs CT to use (and can therefore be mid-charged) and also costs MP (which a Thief doesn't have much of to begin with.)

Mediator: I'm not sure why Refute no longer can "mid-charge" but can we bring that back? Its hit % isn't that high to begin with, and it's a cool way to disrupt an enemy unit, as well as have a risk/reward ratio for friendly units (it's not often, but I have seen a friendly mediator refute their own unit who was charging a spell because the unit was poisoned or DS or something, and it's fun AI shenanigans!)

Oracle: Why were Pray Faith and Doubt Faith removed? There may be a good reason, I'm just not aware of it...but I wouldn't mind seeing those back in action.

Geomancer: I'd like to see their stats go back up to 10/8 and 8/10. Also, I was reading the ideas about elemental. Keep in mind that elemental doesn't cost MP, is unevadable and can proc a status in addition to damage. I have a team where the Bard is 12/15 and does over 120 damage with elemental (more when he starts singing magic song, obviously.) So...while I don't necessarily mind seeing Elemental boosted, I would rather see the Geomancer class itself buffed, or perhaps, give it a post on the PA side (like PA+3 instead of +2). The Geo starting with odd numbers really makes a big difference since elemental damage will round down on the PA side, so I'd advocate them starting at even numbers instead.

Scholar: I'd like to see Mad Science moved over to Time Mage so that they have some kind of healing/support ability. Also, I'm torn on this, but Damage Split could probably use a very minor buff...like to 35 or 40%.

I probably have other stuff I want to see but I'm eager to move on to the next category so if I come up with something, I'll edit it on my phone.



Knives:
Repel Knife: I think needs to have its proc have a lower percentage. While it could backfire somewhat if a unit has DA immunity, it's still vastly powerful. I think 35% would be fine.

Mage Masher: I think boosting its proc a bit, to 33% would be ideal.

Katar: I think adding 10% PA evade or two WP would help it to see more use.

Ninja Swords:
Hidden Knife: Perhaps lowering its WP to 9 would be fine...I think 8 was a bit low, 10 was a bit much...I think 9 is great.

Swords:
Mystic Blade: I think adding Immune: Berserk would see this weapon get a lot more action...it's clearly designed for Geomancy but in balancing stats, it's often overlooked...so therefore I think that adding an immunity would help it see more action.

Platinum Sword: This sword is overlooked since Lionheart pretty much overshadows it in the 2H department...while other swords are more attractive in the 2S department because they can proc status (and stronger weapons exist in the 1H departments for things like Southern Cross and whatnot). I think this could become a good Holy or Dark weapon for people to play with GC on those two elements more. Perhaps: 14 WP 10% evade Element: Dark 25% Proc: Demi

Shieldrender: This needs a little bit more WP to be relevant again, IMO.

Rune Blade: I think this sword is starting to be overshadowed by every other +2 MA weapon out there. Giving this sword extra evade might be in order (extra WP won't help since it's a PA*WP weapon) or something else to make it stand out...not sure what.

Ultima Weapon: I think it should gain 2S, but lower the proc to 20%.

Katana:
Kotetsu: Increase to 10 WP

Masamune: Either change the -2 to -1 SP, or VASTLY improve the WP (I'm talking 14 WP still using 2H). This weapon can not benefit anyone. A thief breaks even if using Equip Heavy Blade and cannot be hasted to increase their speed (since they're already hasted). On the other hand, slow cripples the unit that uses this weapon, especially since they can't add haste back. Also, if just increasing it to -1 SP, at least make this guy Immune: Slow and if you do leave it the way it is with -2 Speed and not increasing the WP, at the very least please add Always: Regen because this weapon is really unusable.

Axes:
Battle Axe: Could just be my imagination, but is Battle Axe only proccing at 25%? It seems much higher in the tests I'm running.

Rods:
Dragon Rod: I think Bahamut could go off 33% of the time and this weapon still not be OP. It's currently very underused.

Staves:
White Staff: There really is no place currently for this Staff, since every other staff provides something else that the equipper would be looking for...I was thinking possibly make it Immune to certain statii...perhaps DA, Sleep, Poison or others. Just two statii that are somewhat lethal in general would probably give this staff a lot more use.

Gold Staff: Better than the current White Staff, but still doesn't have much place. I'd like to see the WP increased perhaps to 10.

Guns:
Mythril Gun: I think that this would be really fun shooting Demi or Demi 2 (which Demi could be unevadable but if Demi 2 is chosen, I'd still like it to be evadable and faith based for it hitting in general.) As I also said, a Brave based healing gun would also be fun, or adding 1 speed.

Romanda Gun: Okay as is

Every other Gun: Yeah, still sticking to my guns (Har har har) about these. I feel these are underpowered as is...less range, forced 2h and 108 Gems was debuffed also. I think that increasing the range back would be completely fine, or keeping the four range but having them equip a shield again would be okay too. Again, the only shield that can boost a gun is the Kaiser Plate which currently only boosts Ice...so it would require that Shield and Gun combo. If we're concerned about that being OP, we could always switch the Defense Ring or Magic Ring to absorb Ice...(which I'll get to later). At least change the Stone Gun...it can't one shot anyone and you have to start off petrified to boot.

Bows:
Long Bow: I think it could add the +1 Speed like the other bows have (the range doesn't help that much, really and its WP is lower than some of the other Bows).

Atheist Bow: It has the most WP of all the bows and adds 100% innocent...though its range is shorter, I think that at least lowering its WP is in order...maybe to 13.

Spears:
All Spears: Yeah, what everyone else is saying, basically. I'm not a fan of the Lancer in general, and boosting and rearranging the spears will probably make them a lot less meh. I also think the Holy Lance should be changed to a Wind Weapon like...Tornado Pole: Element: Wind 10% W-EV Proc: Tornado 30% (I change it to wind because...)

Sticks:
Iron Fan: Eh, increase its weapon power a bit or have it an elemental weapon where the element doesn't appear in the spears. For example: Iron Fan: Element: Holy 15% W-EV, Proc: Dia 20% (as long as you change the White Staff to something that doesn't proc Dia, of course.)

Cloths: I read over Shintroy's proposals...I'm going to say that they don't need to rival the Bard's weapons. I love the +2 PA option, and I like the "Cancel: Charging" option (especially with mages gaining that reaction ability to possibly evade), but a healing cloth? I would say perhaps with a buff...like Always: Regen or something. But there is a distinct liability in having a healing weapon that has to be overcome, and it's unlikely players will use this for Kagesougi dancers since they have access to swords which are more powerful (for instance, the Platinum Sword in its current form would be better for Kagesougi since it's 2S-able, despite it's lowered range...it can deal twice as much damage potentially), and that it would have to be 100% hit for it to be effective as a "Healing Cloth." But with a proper buff, it could be doable (that +1 SP on healing staff makes a huge difference, so it would need something to put it in contention with that.)


Defense Ring/Magic Ring: I think this should be changed to Absorb: Ice (instead of Lightning) and Magic Ring changed to Absorb: Lightning (getting rid of Absorb Earth). The reason is because there is already another, good accessory that absorbs earth (Diamond Armlet) as well as a Mantle that negates it, a Shield and clothes that absorb Earth, as well as Float which negates Earth (admittedly, if we change shields to not absorb anymore, I would entertain the idea of Earth being absorbed by, say, Reflect Ring or something).

108 Gems: Please at least bring back Immune: Poison. There is currently other accessory that is Immune: Poison.


These are just scattered thoughts that I have right now that I'd like to see changed...I'm kinda in a crunch for time writing this so I probably have more things I want to say but...good start for my opinions for now...

Thanks again FFMaster, and either way it goes I really enjoy the game even if you change nothing. Your work is definitely appreciated.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 07, 2015, 10:07:33 am
A few comments:

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmAegis Shield: Only Shield I think is actually somewhat OP. ... (I do realize that since they'll be using magic sometimes and therefore charging, the evade won't come into play so it's helpful to be slightly above [Genji Shield]...)


I think you hit the nail on the head here.  It's a mage's shield so there's the risk of being midcharged.  Furthermore, most mages cannot equip shields, so they'll need to sacrifice their support ability to equip it.  When nerfing Aegis shield, it is good to bear in mind that it'll affect squire-mages and geomancer-mages the most.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmCrystal Shield: I think this is a terrible shield in current gameplay. ...

Every Other Shield: I'm not a fan of any of the other shields. ...


I agree with these comments.  In particular, apart from Cursed Ring, the elemental shields stand alone as the only pieces of equipment that make its user weaker to stuff.  These weaknesses are particularly hard to cover on units that can't equip clothes.  I wouldn't mind if these shields were changed up a bit. 

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmMonk: I'd like to see the female have an initial 11 PA if possible. They only have one more MA than the male but trail the male by three points in PA...Female Monks are good for tanky dancing and not much else, unfortunately.


I don't believe it is possible to individually tune each gender's stats at the moment, unfortunately. 

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Squire: I'd like to see Heal actually cure Berserk (only Refute and Echo Grass currently do).


I'm OK with this.  Maybe give it 3 range while we're at it so squires can do a better job as cheap White Magic supports.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Chemist: Is it possible they can get something that can cure Charm? I'm not saying I actually want this but it'd be interesting to see how people feel.


Don't Chemists break charm well enough with guns?  (I'm not sure about this one.)

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmThief: Bad Luck is pretty terrible, I have to say. ...


How about scrapping the "luck" part of it altogether and giving it a new purpose?  Something like Steal HP/MP.  It would be really cool if we could implement "Steal Positive Statii," but I won't hold my breath.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Platinum Sword: This sword is overlooked since Lionheart pretty much overshadows it in the 2H department...while other swords are more attractive in the 2S department because they can proc status (and stronger weapons exist in the 1H departments for things like Southern Cross and whatnot). I think this could become a good Holy or Dark weapon for people to play with GC on those two elements more. Perhaps: 14 WP 10% evade Element: Dark 25% Proc: Demi


Many moons ago, we gathered a few suggestions for new swords.  I'll reprint them here:

Balmung: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, Dark Element, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H, 2S
Kazekiri: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Wind Element, +1 Range, 2S
Sword of Storms: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, Lightning Element, 33% Add: DM or DA, 2H, 2S

I'm not sure how relevant any of these are to the current patch.   I thought the Balmung was pretty cool at the time.  It's a faith sword that doesn't need high MA to be effective.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Rune Blade: I think this sword is starting to be overshadowed by every other +2 MA weapon out there. Giving this sword extra evade might be in order (extra WP won't help since it's a PA*WP weapon) or something else to make it stand out...not sure what.


While not particularly unique, I think it's fine.  It's right at home on mage Bards and Geomancers.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Masamune: Either change the -2 to -1 SP, or VASTLY improve the WP (I'm talking 14 WP still using 2H). This weapon can not benefit anyone. A thief breaks even if using Equip Heavy Blade and cannot be hasted to increase their speed (since they're already hasted). On the other hand, slow cripples the unit that uses this weapon, especially since they can't add haste back. Also, if just increasing it to -1 SP, at least make this guy Immune: Slow and if you do leave it the way it is with -2 Speed and not increasing the WP, at the very least please add Always: Regen because this weapon is really unusable.


I am with you on this one.  Immune: Slow would be nice at the very least.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Gold Staff: Better than the current White Staff, but still doesn't have much place. I'd like to see the WP increased perhaps to 10.


This weapon will be good if battle mages become a thing.  Dual-wielding Gold Staff in one hand and a destructive weapon in the other will allow one to both debuff a target and deal damage at the same time.  Its W-EV is great, to boot.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Every other Gun: Yeah, still sticking to my guns (Har har har) about these. I feel these are underpowered as is...less range, forced 2h and 108 Gems was debuffed also. I think that increasing the range back would be completely fine, or keeping the four range but having them equip a shield again would be okay too. Again, the only shield that can boost a gun is the Kaiser Plate which currently only boosts Ice...so it would require that Shield and Gun combo. If we're concerned about that being OP, we could always switch the Defense Ring or Magic Ring to absorb Ice...(which I'll get to later). At least change the Stone Gun...it can't one shot anyone and you have to start off petrified to boot.


I personally think magic guns are fine.  They're still good on units with Pilgrimage, and they're scary if another unit applies Faith to targets with a Spell Edge.  Whatever changes, I would discourage removing forced-2H.  Otherwise, archers will start using magic guns over longbows all over again.


That's all for now.  It'll be easier to evaluate proposals once we start to obtain consensus on things.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on July 11, 2015, 01:25:47 am
I've compiled a few pages of suggestions for 140. It's not complete, I've run out of time. I'll be moving tomorrow and don't know when I'll be getting internet back, so I'll post what I have now (including a few new ideas of my own)

Green = Buff
Maroon = Nerf
Blue = Neutral
Red = Contested changes


Paladin
C-EV% increased to 5

Priest
Loses Regen

Wizard
Loses Water, Nether Water, Water 2, Poison and Frog
Gains Bio, Nether Bio (Bio 2), Bio 2 (Bio 3)

Bio: 50% Add: Poison

Time Mage
Gains Regen, Poison

Stop: Hit_F(MA+60%) or 5 CT
Regen: 0 CT, Ally Only
Poison: 0 CT, Enemy Only

Thief
Quickening is either scrapped (contested) or moved to another job such as Time Mage. Either way, Thief would lose it.
Loses Heretic

Bad Luck: No consensus except for how terrible it is now

Mediator
Blackmail: 200 JP
Stall: 250 JP

Oracle
Gains Frog

Life Drain: Non-reflectable
Spell Absorb: Non-reflectable

Lancer
Gains Robes, Lose Shields

The purpose behind the idea is to make the Jump stat more valuable. Overall the CT would just be slightly lower. Jump can be stacked up to a value of 7. Raising this cap would require ASM.

3 Jump: 7 CT
4 Jump: 6 CT
5 Jump: 5 CT
6 Jump: 4 CT
7 Jump: 3 CT

We would see actual use for Jump+1 and Jump+2 as a result. Spears would probably get a +Jump treatment instead of +Speed as a result. Their native speed would go up to 9.

Gains innate Two Hands

Samurai/Draw Out
Gains Longbows
Lose innate Two Hands. See Katanas under the Item spoiler to see why.
Draw Out requires a Katana equipped (or Longbow, if the above is implemented)

Asura: 3 directional
Bizen Boat: 1 AoE (Arguably not really a nerf, since you're less likely to hit your own allies. I've heard about how the AI can be derpy with this ability)
Murasame: 1 AoE
Heaven's Cloud: Enemy Only and/or 100 JP
Masamune: 300 JP

Ninja/Ninjitsu
Gains Heretic

Scholar/Lore
Tornado: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable
Quake: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable

Bard/Sing
Angel Song: 50% Cancel: Silence
Life Song: 5 CT, Heal_HP(MA+23), 25% Random: Regen - Reraise or 50% Cancel: Blind
Battle Song: Hit_(50%) PA+1
Magic Song: Hit_(50%) MA+1
Nameless Song: No real consensus. Suggestions include moving Regen and/or Transparent here and removing Reraise, or canceling negative status
Last Song: 8-9 CT, Non-Mimic

Warcry: A song that could increase the Brave values of your party. Higher hit rate than Battle Song
Faith Song: A song that could increase the Faith values of your party. Higher hit rate than Magic Song


Dancer/Dance
Wiznaibus: 50% Add: Blind
Witch Hunt: 50% Add: Silence, 0 MP
Polka Polka: Hit_(50-66%) PA-1
Disillusion: Hit_(50-66%) MA-1
Nameless Dance: No real consensus. Suggestions include moving Poison and/or adding Don't Move and removing Silence, or canceling positive status
Last Dance: 8-9 CT, Hit_(20%) CT 00 or Non-Mimic

War Dance: A dance that could decrease the Brave values of the enemy's party. Higher hit rate than Polka Polka
Wizardry: A dance that could decrease the Faith values of the enemy's party. Higher hit rate than Disillusion



Swords/Straight swords
Phoenix Blade: 15-20 W-EV%, Immune:Undead - Petrify - Crystal - Treasure, Initial: Reraise removed
Ice Brand: 13 WP

Katanas
(IMO, Katanas should go Forced 2 hands and get an overall WP increase, so you might see Paladins actually use them since right now, they have to compete with swords, who have higher WP. Knight Swords are defensive, while Katanas lean on the offensive. Samurais would lose innate 2 hands, and possibly the Two Hands support. This would go to Lancers, who would lose shields in the process.)


Asura Knife: 9 WP, +1 PA, Strengthen: Fire - Ice - Lightning
Koutetsu Knife: 10 WP, Strengthen: Holy - Dark
Bizen Boat: +1 MA
Murasame: 13 WP
Heaven's Cloud: 8 WP, Strengthen: Earth - Wind - Water
Kiyomori: Loses MA bonus, Immune: Blind
Muramasa: Revert to 138 version (I guess this is considered a buff, as current Muramasa is hardly used)
Masamune: Needs a buff of some kind, but no consensus
Chirijiraden: +1 Speed replaced with +1 Move

Staves
Gold Staff: +1 Move

Guns
Mythril Gun: Redesigned into Demi Gun/Healing Gun/Esuna Gun
Stone Gun: 6 Range

Longbows
Ice Bow: Remove MA bonus
Lightning Bow: Remove MA bonus
Silver Bow: 13 WP

Spears
+1 Jump across all spears, +1 Speed removed
Ice/Flame/Thunder Lance/Spear: Ice/Fire/Lightning elemental, Absorb: Ice/Fire/Lightning

Bags
C Bag: MA bonus reduced/removed, possibly gets some status immunities
P Bag: Status immunities

Cloths/Veils
No real consensus, as far as I've seen

Helmets
Genji Helmet: 70 HP, Loses Initial: Berserk, +1 Speed

Headbands
Some different ideas for headbands, but not really any consensus.

Armor
Reflect Mail: Always: Reflect

Robes
Silk Robe: Immune: Berserk

Accessories
108 Gems: Strengthen: All, Immune: Poison
N-Kai Armlet: Immune: Charm - Undead - Blind, Absorb: Dark



- Re-add a 'Check CT/Target' flag to Reraise since it (once more) has CT and can Follow Targets

Status:
- Undead cancels and cannot stack with Regen/Poison

ShiShi:
- Swap/Fix Yellow/Purple female Summoner's palettes
- Change back Thief to TYPE1, Scholar to TYPE2

Master Guide:
- Female Geomancer should be 4 Move
- Rainbow Staff is Non-elemental
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 11, 2015, 08:55:27 am
My input:

Paladin
C-EV% increased to 5

Pretty cool with.

Time Mage
Gains Regen, Poison

Not OK.  I believe that Time Magic should have no healing (apart from Demi absorb).  I'd rather buff it and leave it on Priests or put it on a redesigned Scholar.  I feel less strongly about Poison.  While I am OK with it leaving Wizard, again I would rather see it on a redesigned Scholar, one who is focused on emaciating the enemy with reliable DoTs and light damage.

Wizard
Loses Water, Nether Water, Water 2, Poison and Frog
Gains Bio, Nether Bio (Bio 2), Bio 2 (Bio 3)

Not OK.  Wizards should have no conventional non-elemental damage.  They deal heavy burst AoE damage but cannot get around elemental defense without Oil.  Also, Water is an under-represented element.  I would hate to see it disappear.

Stop: Hit_F(MA+60%) or 5 CT

My vote is for lower accuracy.  Keep it easy to use.

Regen: 0 CT, Ally Only
Poison: 0 CT, Enemy Only

0 CT will not provide very much benefit to Regen.  A 0 CT Cure already keeps its caster alive from poison damage.
While I wouldn't mind seeing a 0 CT Poison, I believe that it is similarly unnecessary.

Thief
Quickening is either scrapped (contested) or moved to another job such as Time Mage. Either way, Thief would lose it.

Not OK with moving Quickening to Time Magic.  The AI won't use Quickening at all if it can use more than one other spell that uses MP.  It is best to just kill it off.

Mediator
Blackmail: 200 JP
Stall: 250 JP

Sure.

Oracle
Gains Frog
Life Drain: Non-reflectable
Spell Absorb: Non-reflectable

Don't mind.

Lancer
Gains Robes, Lose Shields
Change Jump's CT formula from 50 / Speed to 21 / Jump
Gains innate Two Hands

Samurai/Draw Out
Gains Longbows
Lose innate Two Hands. See Katanas under the Item spoiler to see why.
Draw Out requires a Katana equipped (or Longbow, if the above is implemented)

Not OK with Lancers gaining Innate Two Hands and +1 SP.  If this were to happen, then male Samurai would disappear from the metagame as physical damage dealers.

Similarly, I am not OK with making Katana force-2H.  If this were the case, then Samurai would become the only class that cannot equip a shield and use one of its native weapons at the same time.  I am also not OK with making Draw Out require Katana.  This will (a) make the Draw Out skillset much less accessible for every other job, and (b) allow Weapon Break to permanently silence the Draw Out skillset mid-battle, along with every point of JP invested into it.

Asura: 3 directional
Bizen Boat: 1 AoE (Arguably not really a nerf, since you're less likely to hit your own allies. I've heard about how the AI can be derpy with this ability)
Murasame: 1 AoE
Heaven's Cloud: Enemy Only and/or 100 JP
Masamune: 300 JP

All but Heaven's Cloud sounds like a nerf, and I'm not particularly OK with any of them:


Ninja/Ninjitsu
Gains Heretic

Welcome change!

Scholar/Lore
Tornado: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable
Quake: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable

I would rather redesign Scholars with FFMaster's input than tinker with their existing skillset.  At any rate, nerfing Tornado and Quake in not one, but three areas simultaneously is a little overkill in my opinion.

Swords/Straight swords
Phoenix Blade: 15-20 W-EV%, Immune:Undead - Petrify - Crystal - Treasure, Initial: Reraise removed
Ice Brand: 13 WP

Don't agree with Phoenix Blade granting Immune: Crystal.  It goes against the spirit of the game in my opinion.  Fights would drag on.

Staves
Gold Staff: +1 Move

Wary about this. Gold Staff is decent as it is now, but it will provide a nice buff to battle mages (its primary users), who suffer from 3 base Move.

Guns
Stone Gun: 6 Range

If Stone Gun needs a buff, I would rather remove Init: Petrify than increase range, myself.  This would keep longbows and Romanda Gun more relevant to the metagame.

Bags
C Bag: MA bonus reduced/removed, possibly gets some status immunities
P Bag: Status immunities

Whatever changes, it would be nice if one bag healed on hit -- not for the healing, but for disabling physical attacks so that the AI can use quirky skills (e.g., Preach and Solution) more reliably.

Robes
Silk Robe: Immune: Berserk

I would rather see this on an underpowered staff (maybe Rainbow Staff or Holy Staff), but I'm fine either way.  I don't want to make Berserk immunity too easy to attain for mages given that it is supposed to counter them.

- Swap/Fix Yellow/Purple female Summoner's palettes

If we swap any palettes, we should vote first.  I personally prefer the yellow palette, myself.  I think it is a well-coordinated palette.



I'm pretty much OK with everything else at the moment.


Finally, I would like to add one nerf of my own to the list:

Staves
Healing Staff: Loses 2S
No more equipping two of these to reach ridiculous speeds.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on July 11, 2015, 03:35:06 pm
Stone gun suggestion: how about make it earth elemental and give it like quake or maybe make it like an earth slash. Formula could be PA and/or MA based. Another option is could make it like a geomancy gun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on July 11, 2015, 08:55:30 pm
I was actually thinking the same thing. An Earth elemental stone gun could double as a healing gun for units with equipment that absorb earth, and it could also be boosted. I don't think I want another spell gun if we were to implement the demi gun idea, but a non-faith based elemental gun would be a welcome change in my opinion. Although, I was thinking of just the plain old WP*WP damage formula instead of it being based on stats. Also, I don't know about a geomancy gun unless there's a way to make it AOE, because that's one of the selling points of geomancy along with 100% hits (which guns have anyway for the most part) and the status procs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on July 11, 2015, 10:54:23 pm
I agree with Gaignun on everything except these 2 Things I want to mention...

1.
Despite many of the complaints about Quickening, it's actually not that OP and the very best teams are only set up to use it occasionally at the start of a match or provide a long term boost for a very long match.  However in that regard Quickening is no different than Accumulate or Focus OR PA/MA save.  The only difference is that there has been a definitive way to get the A.I. to use quickening whereas the A.I. using Accumulate and/or Focus is less documented. 


2.
Maybe it's just because I pitched the idea and I want to protect my baby...

I really like Healing staff granting +1 speed. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on July 12, 2015, 12:01:30 am
Quote from: reinoe on July 11, 2015, 10:54:23 pm
I agree with Gaignun on everything except these 2 Things I want to mention...

1.
Despite many of the complaints about Quickening, it's actually not that OP and the very best teams are only set up to use it occasionally at the start of a match or provide a long term boost for a very long match.  However in that regard Quickening is no different than Accumulate or Focus OR PA/MA save.  The only difference is that there has been a definitive way to get the A.I. to use quickening whereas the A.I. using Accumulate and/or Focus is less documented. 


2.
Maybe it's just because I pitched the idea and I want to protect my baby...

I really like Healing staff granting +1 speed. 



The AI seems to use Accumulate/Focus when it can't otherwise deal damage or something useful.

The staff granting +1 speed is fine. The staff being capable of being dual wielded is a bit iffy.

I've grown... A distaste for speed + status teams. Now, that doesn't mean ALL of them. Ones like Truelight's, I like a lot.

But the ones that just drag a match out and just sap all hope of winning from the opposing team for the sole reason that they're faster, forcing both watchers and recorder to slog through what is usually 30+ minutes of the same thing over and over and over?

Kill them with fire.

I mean, teams that drag a match out are generally fine? That's acceptable and still a good strategy. It's when you lose because a guy can just shut you down, guaranteed, because they double or triple turn you that makes me hate being in Arena at times. I might be selfish in throwing such hate at that kind of team, but I'm pretty sure nobody wants to sit through that over and over. Have better things to do with our time.

And Healing Staff losing Two-Swords is more than enough to cut that loose.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy using the staff because mages are normally slow. I just hate it's abuse capacity at the moment.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 12, 2015, 03:23:39 am
Are many mages dual wielding healing staves?  I am primarily concerned with 12 SP ninjas, myself.

I'm cool with the SP bonus, but not so much about getting the bonus twice.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on July 12, 2015, 06:03:28 am
Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2015, 03:23:39 am
Are many mages dual wielding healing staves?  I am primarily concerned with 12 SP ninjas, myself.

I'm cool with the SP bonus, but not so much about getting the bonus twice.


As far as I've seen people prefer to give most mages who have them Short Charge.

It's the Ninjas, mostly.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on July 12, 2015, 06:54:32 am
Heavily Time Mage getting non time magic spells. Poison, Bio, Regen were never considered time magic spells.
FF12 and further don't count


By far the best idea so far is the Two hand and Katana change WKWeigraf suggested. Samurai having Long Bows comes in second.

Since Katanas could have the forced 2H change then can I get a 2 range Masamune?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on July 12, 2015, 10:14:48 am
Samurai could gain innate access to bows and/or spears and I think it'd be okay. If ff master insists on keeping breath procs, that could give a decent reason to. They would also need 2h access and probably a wp nerf to make work though.

Scholar needs overhaul.. stats and all. why choose wizard when the scholar has better HP/pa/equip and innate access to lore that also needs reworking.

Time mage is pretty good at 9 speed, with innate access to the healing staff you get an easy 10 speed mage. They are slightly dwarfed by the mediator in terms of stats, but I think the key lies in the abilities. You want a 10 speed caster that has mp and decent ma? TM has their place. Mediator with white magic is more popular than with time magic because it's a better rounded unit, though either are fine.

Summon magic isn't bad. I would loves me some more damage on my summon units, but what you pay for jp-wise is utility. You get a nice choice of elements, statii, tons of unevadable elemental magic and support with huge aoe on everything. With the tools available, you can drop 200+ damage Shiva/Ifrit/ramuh which are unevadable, or short charge drop big summons if you fear you'll be mid charged.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on July 12, 2015, 01:58:51 pm
I think an easy fix for breath procs on lancer's spears would just to switch the breath proc damage formula from ma based to PA or SP or PA+MA or PA + SP(<-- maybe this one since those spears give +sp). Could lower the *8 to like *6/*4 if the damage output is too high at *8.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on July 13, 2015, 04:29:53 am
If Katana gets changed to forced 2 Hand Paladin should lose the ability to equip them. Katana could always be replaced with flails for Paladin too. Ninja could gain Katana proficiency if Katana becomes forced 2 Hand as well without being OP.

Two Hands still has a place in arena even with the forced 2H katana change. Definitely doesn't have to be removed, and I still think it's powerful enough to keep its 500 JP cost.

With Samurai no longer having innate Two Hands, they could use a buff in PA as well since they'll no longer have Two Hands + Concentrate/Attack Up. 10 PA/9 MA for males and 11 MA/9 PA for female doesn't sound OP since, out of all the armored classes, samurai has the worst weapon options and no access to shields. Rouroni's spear suggestion for samurai also makes sense. 2 Range, forced 2H masamune with Concentrate/Attack Up vs 2Hand Spear? We would see so much variety in Samurai builds that's for sure.
Paladin loses Katana proficiency for Flail.
Nin
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on July 15, 2015, 09:22:34 am
No idea what happened to the rest of my previous post.

Would the AI know to use brave and faith songs and dances? I really like the idea for having more ways to increase, and finally decrease, brave and faith. This adds a lot of versatility to Arena since we'll have more Silver Bow, magic proc weapons, ninjitsu, and use of the dance and sing skill set.

Would giving lancer the Lancet ability be possible? I like the sound of an ability to drain both HP and MP being in a usualy unused skill set.

Lancet - Rng 2 - AoE 0 - Vert 1 - CT 0 - MP 10 - Formula AbsHP_(?) AbsMP_(?) - Physical Evade

No idea how the formula could work without being OP.Probably something like geomancy but better.

Speaking of absorb abilities, Oracle's HP and MP absorb spells could use a change. I believe it's based off the target's HP and not the casters. Either way they're both really weak abilities even with a max HP unit factored in. Can it instead drain 50% HP or MP? Maybe base it off of the user's max HP and MP. Not possible to make these spells OP since they're included with status effects. Units using these spells will probably have to choose between status and HP/MP draining abilities.

Really looking forward to SP altering abilties being removed. We could probably have some teams rely on quick and 00 CT performances. There needs to be more teams as badass as CT5Holy's Delay Buster.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 15, 2015, 05:07:43 pm
It is my humble opinion that no unit should be able to reach 12 SP without making some serious sacrifices.  12 SP is significant, since it is the value at which Haste grants an additional point of SP.  If units can hit 12 SP while retaining destructive potential, then 8 SP units like Paladin become quite unpalatable.

This means allowing no weapon to grant +1 SP while also doubling as an effective melee weapon, like knives.  Healing Staff gets a pass for now because all classes that can equip it have 8 base SP.  (Time Mage has 9 SP, but suffers from lousy HP and MA, so it's fine.)  However, letting Healing Staff be dual-wielded makes it too effective on Ninja, since Ninja can use Healing Staff for breaks and Kagesougi.

In fact, seeing how Thieves have a whopping 10 base SP and have the easiest time reaching 12 SP, I wouldn't mind seeing them lose an extra 10 base HP.  This change isn't so much to weaken Thieves as it is to buff Paladin and male Samurai by comparison.

Quote from: Shintroy on July 13, 2015, 04:29:53 am
With Samurai no longer having innate Two Hands, they could use a buff in PA as well since they'll no longer have Two Hands + Concentrate/Attack Up. 10 PA/9 MA for males and 11 MA/9 PA for female doesn't sound OP since, out of all the armored classes, samurai has the worst weapon options and no access to shields.


If female samurai have 9 PA, male samurai would have 11 PA, if I'm not mistaken.

Another word of caution to giving lancers innate two-hands: If lancers have innate two-hands, then spears will need to take a hit to WP to prevent lancers from 1HKOing everything with a pulse.  Unfortunately, this will cripple the Jump command: Jump is not affected by two-hands, so Jump will deal less damage across the board.  Jump will also deal less damage than a simple two-handed melee strike unless the lancer equips a shield for whatever reason (which won't be easy if lancers also lose access to shields.)

Considering how difficult it is to use Jump to begin with, I would not recommend giving lancers innate two-hands.  Otherwise, lancers will become incompatible with their own skill set.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on July 15, 2015, 05:20:41 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2015, 05:07:43 pm
It is my humble opinion that no unit should be able to reach 12 SP without making some serious sacrifices.  12 SP is significant, since it is the value at which Haste grants an additional point of SP.  If units can hit 12 SP while retaining destructive potential, then 8 SP units like Paladin become quite unpalatable.

This means allowing no weapon to grant +1 SP while also doubling as an effective melee weapon, like knives.  Healing Staff gets a pass for now because all classes that can equip it have 8 base SP.  (Time Mage has 9 SP, but suffers from lousy HP and MA, so it's fine.)  However, letting Healing Staff be dual-wielded makes it too effective on Ninja, since Ninja can use Healing Staff for breaks and Kagesougi.

In fact, seeing how Thieves have a whopping 10 base SP and have the easiest time reaching 12 SP, I wouldn't mind seeing them lose an extra 10 base HP.  This change isn't so much to weaken Thieves as it is to buff Paladin and male Samurai by comparison.

I agree completely.

In fact, I try to avoid using a Paladin as, aside from the tankiness, there's not much they can do if they're outsped (and giving them Slow protection is a must).

Speed is a touchy topic in general for obvious reasons, but in the end I'm of the mindset that it should not be so easy to abuse for the jobs that are already fast.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Rev4nd on July 15, 2015, 06:17:47 pm
I don't know if I should post this here but the Dragon's Rod in game says that the Bahamut cast is 50% instead of 25% like the master guide says. I did some testing with dual wielding rods and Bahamut seems to be casted more than the other casting rods.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on July 17, 2015, 05:00:01 am
A lot, if not most, of the in game descriptions are off. Stick to the master guide for equipment data.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on July 17, 2015, 09:05:50 am
Few more things of note:

Totally fine with quickening going for at least a season if not, forever. I stopped using it because I felt it was cheap, not a slight against people who use it, I try to make an alternate solution to the turn issue so I don't feel bad playing against a quickening team either. I don't like it because I don't feel it should be treated like PA or MA where more is merrier, it should be more tactical and offer benefits for being slower, such as "no foolin'" you saw in the tournament, but there is a thresh hold. Being 8 speed is bad now, it really just is.

Samurai never loses two hand. Ever. Because.
Katana aren't bad, but few are using them to their potential, though masamune isn't right yet. If it lost all the speed/haste stuff and became the shield sword, it'd be cool. Increased evasion with slow immunity and decent wp, least it'd get used. Magic evade forced 2 hands? just spitballing at this point.

Mime must stay at 8 speed for 2 reasons:

1. Team versatility is crucial, It's harder for some units to attain bonus speed and do their job as intended. Perhaps you want your paladin to be straight up tanky and grand cross all day, that should be cool to mime. It increases the difficulty on an already hard to design unit/team. If you don't get the turn order just the way you want it, your mime will make you sad.

2. Mimes can equip pretty much anything. 13 speed mime is attainable... fragile, but attainable. Between that 8 speed, you really should be able to do whatever you intend to do.. I haven't seen a team that actually needed that, but time will tell. If you wanna live in the world of 17 speed(w/haste) mimes, be my guest, but remember i said "no"

About poison (and eviscerating wizard, plz no) yeah.. poison doesn't really work on wizard.. their job is to pummel the enemy with huge aoe damage and making poison a viable cast would be gimping their potential. The other statii the have are lethal, if not nearly, so a death/frog wizard is really the only way to go in that sense. I suggest moving poison to either squire or scholar. Possible ninjitsu but the formula would have to be done differently in either.

Oh, and as much as I like the idea of oracle getting frog and calling monopoly on all the froggies, it really should stay on black magic. If it must go somewhere, yin yang magic is the place to go, but wizard has few statii especially if poison gets moved (yes, oracle could get poison, but it would get used about as often as blind or silence song)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on July 17, 2015, 10:46:15 am
Mime has a weapon bug that will disarm them when a teammate attacks. So without a weapon and having equip shield they can only have a max of 12 SP. I'm only for Mime getting an SP buff if SP boosting is removed otherwise keep them 8 SP since it's easy for them to increase it with Cheer Song and Quickening. Don't forget if the Mime has an ability that uses MP, except for the ruins apparently, the AI won't use attribute boosting abilities. Besides, in most situations it's best for the mime to go first so teammates going after can potentially line themselves up for a mimic.

I've never seen blind used in 139. Not even on my old high evasion team "Power Rangers", which I use for team testing every time I make a new team. I don't know what can be done to that ability to make the AI use it. Poison on Oracle seems okay, but I'm more worried about poison protection for cloth wearers. Hopefully there's some more poison protection in the next patch.

Speaking of status effects, let's not forget about fixing death sentence on dead immune equipment. Looking forward to Death Sentence making a return. We haven't seen Secret first since probably month 1 of arena.

Quake and Tornado I'm fine with being at *9 MA, but can we have it at 3 CT instead of 2?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on July 25, 2015, 12:32:12 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on July 11, 2015, 08:55:27 am

Regen: 0 CT, Ally Only
Poison: 0 CT, Enemy Only

0 CT will not provide very much benefit to Regen.  A 0 CT Cure already keeps its caster alive from poison damage.
While I wouldn't mind seeing a 0 CT Poison, I believe that it is similarly unnecessary.




Actually, I think it would make Regen very usable. One of the biggest problems with Regen right now is that it requires CT. One way that Regen can be useful is when you put White Magic on a non MA based unit like Archer or Paladin, they aren't able to heal others well with a White Magic ability because their MA isn't high enough...but with Regen, they can at least provide some type of semi-reliable healing. But because it requires one CT, they have to use it, hope for it to hit (and I have seen it miss), and then they don't get the benefit until their next turn when casting it on themselves. That's the biggest problem as opposed to say, Masamune, where Regen is applied right away and the unit gets 15% of its health back immediately. That's a huge advantage as it can bring the unit out of critical immediately (as opposed to casting Regen where it could take two or more turns for the unit to recover).

While a 0CT cure keeps the unit alive from poison, it isn't an (good) option on units with low MA who are using White Magic and I don't think that's the argument here anyway. Curing poison isn't the reason that this spell is used; providing a light buff for healing and damage control is a much better use since its AOE allows the caster to get its whole party if it can.

I think it's a much needed boost and would help Regen a lot. The same could probably be said for Poison, though I think that one of the main reasons it isn't seen often is because of the AI itself...it just won't use it very often when given other options. Still though, it would at least help.

(I wrote this a long time ago but just brought out my laptop...still I'm sure relevant.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on July 25, 2015, 02:04:57 pm
That's a convincing explanation, silentkaster.  I can get behind the proposal now.  Though if Regen gets a cure bonus, we might need to adjust the CT, MP, etc. for the sake of balance.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 13, 2015, 06:29:00 pm
I say after the SCC tournament is done we get back to discussing changes that should be made to make it more balanced. I know not everyone will agree what's proposed at the moment but new ideas may emerge so of anyone wants to either reinforce their ideas and bring up new ones please post here. Let's get creative!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 13, 2015, 10:01:53 pm
Quote from: Barren on August 13, 2015, 06:29:00 pm
I say after the SCC tournament is done we get back to discussing changes that should be made to make it more balanced. I know not everyone will agree what's proposed at the moment but new ideas may emerge so of anyone wants to either reinforce their ideas and bring up new ones please post here. Let's get creative!

All just ideas and off of the top of my head to boot.

Though some are serious (mostly regarding weapons), the rest are just things to discuss. Bolded for convenience and a little bit of fun.

Ultima Weapon's Proc should be 50% at the least.
Change/Add sword: Rapier : 9-11 WP, 15-30% W-EV, +1 Speed or replace Shieldrender for Shield-Break proc, no 2S or 2H (because admit it, the Shieldrender is useless now with it's WP reduction. Replacing it with a slightly stronger but non 2H version will help it see more use, and Rapiers just make sense for piercing things.)
Change/Add current gun: Demi Gun - Casts Demi on target. 5 range, 1 hand (because it can't do any more damage than 33% without weakness, and giving it a low WP total will prevent Kage-spam and the like)
Squires could gain use of Helmets, but not Armor, losing a weapon choice if need be. (Helmets are not particularly OP considering Armor covers more immunities, and somewhat gives Squires more room for versatility. They'd still need Equip Armor for Armor, as I see it. I keep thinking of the cliche of a pot-helmet trainee, thus what created the idea for this.)
Same suggestions as before with Jump and Spears: CT of Jump modified by total Jump movement, and Spears Increasing Jump movement over Speed.
Giving Paladins access to Knives makes them a little more historically accurate (and a small easy movement boost for more defensive Pallys and creative offensive units)
Same for Samurai: access to Spears and/or Bows.
Give Lancers access to dresses Robes for rebalancing purposes.
Place Instruments under Equip Magegear and Cloths under Equip Polearm (for lack of a better thematic fit and because of their 2-range attack function)


That's all for right now. Will think more on changes/ideas later.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 14, 2015, 04:56:10 am

I finally have internet back. It's nice to see approval on some of my suggestions, such as Samurai using bows. Thanks for the inputs. I will try to reply in chronological order.


Disapproval on Black Magic changes: Fair enough, it was already a contested change. I do begin to like Water after extensively using it in test runs. It would be a shame to see these spells go. Bio spells could be Dark elemental if them being non-elemental is an issue. But having Bio abilities would mean sacrificing Poison, Frog and Death ability slots, which isn't something that seems to reach consensus either. I suppose merging all the Bio procs into one single random proccing Bio and take away Poison. I'll leave the proc rate for discussion.

Nether spells: Not really a reply to anything, just a thought. I think it's a nice idea, but they really should be UnFaith-based. 40/40 units aren't that common builds and are hardly a threat. 40/70 units take more damage from regular spells. The 70/40 units are the real threat to Wizards. UnFaith Nethers would still work on the 40/40 units as well.


Draw Outs: I understand Murasame losing AoE would be significant. As suggested, you could target other panels next to yourself like the current Koutetsu, so you could still heal someone 2 panels away despite dropping the AoE to 1. Same thing with Bizen Boat. It would still be a nerf, but not as drastic and more reasonable. I've also thought of Heaven's Cloud becoming the AoE-heavy ability of the skillset, by increasing its AoE to 3. Maybe that would see it getting some actual use despite running the risk of hitting your own allies, or proccing Slow if you're an air absorb team. In any case, it needs some sort of buff.


Bags: I've seen the 'heal on hit' suggestion and this made me think. How about dropping one of them to 0 WP? The AI would then whack someone to wake them out of Charm or Sleep instead of attempting mundane physical attacks on the enemy. C Bag could become the "Chemist Bag" for that purpose. It could cancel various other bad status to boot. The P Bag, on the other hand, would protect yourself from status, not your allies. Both would lose 2S since protecting both yourself and your allies from status may be OP.


Swapping palettes: What I meant is that currently, female Summoners under the yellow palette are currently shown as purple, and vice versa. Just a simple display issue that needs to be resolved.


I will respond to more later.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 14, 2015, 05:38:41 pm
This post is kind of long, so I put it in a spoiler.


1) I do think that geomancer should be bumped up to 10/8 and 8/10. Maybe I'm just biased, but I don't like to see a class using geomancy better than the class that can use it innately without specifically tailoring that unit for that purpose. Also, geomancers should have even stats from the get go due to the way the geomancy formula works, even with our proposed changes to elemental.

2) I think Bards could have major potential with Robes, but I think it makes them too much like better geomancers without the shields. While robes don't give many stat boosts or HP, I feel that the lack of MP balances out the fact that they have higher MA than any other male unit. Plus, I think that these SCC teams proved that male casters can definitely be used for some crazy stuff like that gastrafitis oracle or the two swords wizard.

3) Yeah, I agree that the draw out set is a little overpowered, and nobody ever uses heaven's cloud. Speaking of which, I think Asura may need a boost as well, maybe PA*8 instead so that male samurai can shine more. Samurai also getting access to spears/bows would be cool as well since it means they can be faster/have better jump. If samurai get access to spears, I feel that more of the spears should become usable with two hands if they don't gain an element. And directing the AOE's sounds like a good way to handle murasame and bizen boat, because the AI would then try to avoid hitting the wrong side with it similar to the current chakra and the crosses.

4) I like the idea of spears giving jump instead of speed. Lancers are underrepresented as a class, possibly due to their limited skill set and inability to use it because of the dang speed stacking. This is even more of a problem with them being a slow class. Jump CT being based on the jump stat would really help with this issue. Additionally, the spears with procs could be based on PA to benefit lancers more, or they could be their respective element. Also, I think that no item should boost speed by more than +1.

5) I'm not too surprised that just a normal sword gets so neglected when surrounded by all these cooler options. Maybe platinum sword should get the evasion of the phoenix blade or even better since it would benefit many classes who can't equip axes/knight swords/other stuff and it wouldn't be overpowered. I think phoenix blade could stand to loose the evasion boost because it already can be boosted by 108 gems/black robe, has 16 WP, and gives initial reraise.

6) I think Aegis Shield is too good as it is now, with its 30 M.EV and silence protection AND +1 MA.

7) Giving a bag 0 WP sounds like an intriguing idea. I'd love to see bags take on a more defensive role than just boosting stats.

8) The nether spells being based on Unfaith could be really cool, since it would provide some more use for innocent. However, there would be no more moves using Unfury as a result. I just wanted to bring that up.

9) Maybe oracle could stand to loose the blind spell since it's not really used and it could be put on a more physical class. Would thieves getting a blind skill in place of quickening or perhaps Bad Luck be too overpowered? Because I think that would be a good skill for them, since it has the potential to make them even more evasive.

10) I don't want to see the water spells go either. I think that the bio spells could be combined, but the random procs as opposed to just one might be a turn off.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 07:43:02 am
A few additions/responses/repetitions:

Echoing Reinoe's sword proposals
Ultima weapon: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 10 to 9.
Moonlight: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 9 to 8.  I'll try to crunch some numbers later to see whether these changes keep balance among the other swords.
Rapier: Extremely hesitant about +1 SP.  I would like to see SP bonuses on weapons reigned in, if anything.

Lancer/spear changes
Increase Lancer's base SP from 8 to 9.
Decrease Lancer's base Jump from 5 to 4.
Remove SP bonus from all spearsGive all spears +1 JumpGive one of those spears an additional +1 Jump.
Change Jump formula from 50/SP to 21/Jump.

Changing Nether spells to unfaith
I cannot get behind this change.  Every other spell in Black magic follows a faith formula, so if Nether spells are changed to unfaith, then black magic users will become unable to use nether spells and the other spells simultaneously and effectively.  At that point we might as well just split off Nether spells into their own skill set.

... On that thought, I think it would be really cool if we could redesign a skillset to do exactly this.  How many people would object if we shuffled the Dance skills to Bards, blew up the Dance skillset, then redesigned Dancers as PA-based unfaith mages?  We could relabel Dancer as Netherseer (after Malak) or something.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 15, 2015, 08:19:25 am
Well dances currently are underwhelming because of how unreliable they are. especially nameless dance which is countered hard by anti-status, heavy armor in particular. I mean witch hunt and last dance is still nice but nothing game changing. If last dance had a buff in accuracy then yea it'd be somehting. The bard skill set is far superior in almost every way. Even if Life Song and Nameless aren't that great to begin with considering the buffs from Nameless song is random, at least last song and magic/battle songs has a lot of impact to the matches themselves. Jumza demonstrated that against me. Along with Faith UP this alone proves that no 40 faith units are truly safe from magic.

So maybe making dancer nether mages or netherseer might be intriguing. Just that their stats has to be reworked obviously to benefit the low faith and MA nether spells need to work.

As far as Swords, I think that the underused Swords deserve some love. Platinum Swords people don't use despite its 12 WP and can be dual wielded. Maybe we should increase the WP Evade? Or give it like a double shot proc similar to dual cutters except lower its WP to maybe 9 or 10.

I still think that we could use a reflect shield considering that there isn't enough reflect based tactics that are dedicated among teams. Yea you see instances of reflect but I think that maybe the Crystal Shield should be the Mirror Shield with Always reflect. That way you can have that unit be the set to use long distance spells. Helps mages alot too.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 15, 2015, 09:27:08 am
Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 07:43:02 am
A few additions/responses/repetitions:

Echoing Reinoe's sword proposals
Ultima weapon: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 10 to 9.
Moonlight: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 9 to 8.  I'll try to crunch some numbers later to see whether these changes keep balance among the other swords.
Rapier: Extremely hesitant about +1 SP.  I would like to see SP bonuses on weapons reigned in, if anything.

Lancer/spear changes
Increase Lancer's base SP from 8 to 9.
Decrease Lancer's base Jump from 5 to 4.
Remove SP bonus from all spearsGive all spears +1 JumpGive one of those spears an additional +1 Jump.
Change Jump formula from 50/SP to 21/Jump.

Changing Nether spells to unfaith
I cannot get behind this change.  Every other spell in Black magic follows a faith formula, so if Nether spells are changed to unfaith, then black magic users will become unable to use nether spells and the other spells simultaneously and effectively.  At that point we might as well just split off Nether spells into their own skill set.

... On that thought, I think it would be really cool if we could redesign a skillset to do exactly this.  How many people would object if we shuffled the Dance skills to Bards, blew up the Dance skillset, then redesigned Dancers as PA-based unfaith mages?  We could relabel Dancer as Netherseer (after Malak) or something.


Reinoe? :P

But yeah.

I suggested the +1 Speed and/or high W-EV mostly because sword users tend to be slow. But again, I don't think the Shieldrender will be used anymore in it's current state, thus why I offered the idea of strengthening it (and giving it more W-EV) but removing it's 2H capabilities. (and I just found Rapiers thematically appropriate for this.)

You'd STILL get two hits in now and again, even if it's not the damage of 2Hing it.

I CAN most certainly agree with increasing the procs of Ultima Weapon and Moonlight both to 50%.
Quote from: Barren on August 15, 2015, 08:19:25 am
Well dances currently are underwhelming because of how unreliable they are. especially nameless dance which is countered hard by anti-status, heavy armor in particular. I mean witch hunt and last dance is still nice but nothing game changing. If last dance had a buff in accuracy then yea it'd be somehting. The bard skill set is far superior in almost every way. Even if Life Song and Nameless aren't that great to begin with considering the buffs from Nameless song is random, at least last song and magic/battle songs has a lot of impact to the matches themselves. Jumza demonstrated that against me. Along with Faith UP this alone proves that no 40 faith units are truly safe from magic.

So maybe making dancer nether mages or netherseer might be intriguing. Just that their stats has to be reworked obviously to benefit the low faith and MA nether spells need to work.

As far as Swords, I think that the underused Swords deserve some love. Platinum Swords people don't use despite its 12 WP and can be dual wielded. Maybe we should increase the WP Evade? Or give it like a double shot proc similar to dual cutters except lower its WP to maybe 9 or 10.

I still think that we could use a reflect shield considering that there isn't enough reflect based tactics that are dedicated among teams. Yea you see instances of reflect but I think that maybe the Crystal Shield should be the Mirror Shield with Always reflect. That way you can have that unit be the set to use long distance spells. Helps mages alot too.


I can get behind the underused swords seeing love, but I don't think a small W-EV boost would help it see more love (and if the Shieldrender is improved/changed to Rapier, a Dual-Cutter effect would be redundant). I remember when Platinum Sword/Platina Dagger Thieves were VERY deadly.

So while it -might- be seen as iffy, I'd prefer an increase to WP (probably 13. That's reasonable enough, I think) over anything else since the Platinum Sword's strength is it's no-element and Dual-Wielding capabilities. (because there's almost no reason to use it otherwise. The Lionheart is always a better choice with 2H, and no other swords can be used with 2S that are nearly as strong but have some proc that balances that.)

All other swords are fine as they are with maybe some tweaking (like Phoenix Blade losing a bit of W-EV to another sword)

I really like the concept of a Mirror Shield, though it was brought up on Shields having too many buffs being somewhat iffy (though I like the idea of something like FFXII's Ensanguined Shield, where it had stupid good perks but perma Sap and Poison)

So here's some ideas, once again off the top of my head:

Stonewall Shield/Bulwark: P/M-EV 10%, Always: Protect, Shell | Initial: Petrify | -1 Speed
Primary Guard: P/M-EV 5-15%, Cancel: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Holy damage | Weak: Water, Wind, Earth, Dark
Tetric Barrier: Same EV as above, Cancel: Water, Wind, Earth, Dark | Weak: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Holy
Focus Guard: 5% P/M-EV, +1 PA, +1 MA | Cancel: Charm


While some of these make current shields somewhat redundant, more creative and colorful options seems like an interesting way to change things up a bit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 15, 2015, 09:43:21 am
I also think windslash bow needs an upgrade. 20% hurricane isn't really hot atm. It's need a percentage boost. 33% perhaps?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 10:08:05 am
So sorry, Reks!  I have the mind of a senile old man.  Or I can't get reinoe out of my thoughts.  Probably both.

As a start, Netherseers could be something like:

106 HP, 72 MP, 8 SP, 12 PA, 6 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
Can equip Knives, Swords, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robes, Accessories

Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Raise: Heal_(50%), Hit_UF(PA+80)%, Cancel: Dead, 5 Rng, 3 CT, 15 MP, Reflectable, 200 JP
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP

※ Nether Wind 2 and Nether Earth 2 may be regarded as redesigned versions of Lore's Tornado and Quake.  They may even appropriate Tornado's and Quake's animations.
※ Oil exists to get around elemental absorption on the opposing team.  You could learn only Nether Earth and Oil, then use Oil to get around enemy earth absorption at the expense of a turn.  This can also synergize with other elemental skill users on your team, like Monks or Samurai.  As for a battle animation, it could recycle Poison's with a palette swap (if that's possible), or it could appropriate one of the Bio animations following a reduction of the Bio series.

I wouldn't want to add status ailments to any of these spells in order to keep the skill set viable for elemental healing.  Low-faith teams are in sore need of AoE healing outside Draw Out, and Netherseers on Wind/Earth/Holy absorb teams can fill this role.  Wind and Earth can be absorbed by clothes wearers (squires, archers, etc.), and Holy can be absorbed by robe wearers (paladins, samurai, etc.)

I don't like Mirror Shield and Always: Reflect because it completely shuts down Yin Yang Magic.  There is no need to bother with status immunities when a single shield protects you from everything Oracles can throw at you.  I understand that Always: Reflect also interferes with White Magic support, but I am nevertheless hesitant.  On the other hand, I am perfectly fine with a Mirror Shield with Initial: Reflect and other perks, like decent P-EV and/or M-EV.

Concerning long bows, is it OK if we remove all SP bonuses?  In exchange, we can give them +1 WP or extra range.  This isn't so much to weaken long bows as it is to make 8 SP melee units viable.  Archers already have 9 base SP.  In my opinion, letting them reach 10 SP with a long-range, high-WP weapon with a status proc to boot outclasses what an 8 SP Paladin gets with shields.

I think giving Windslash Bow a percentage boost as well is OK.

Edit: The more I think about Netherseer, the more I come to like it. If the spells are PA-based, then Squires, Paladins, male Geomancers, and male Samurai can comfortably use them as well.  All of these classes can equip robes, so they can attain decent MP.  Furthermore, if the EV reaction ability is implemented, then Squires, Paladins, and Geomancers can cast the spells while maintaining their shield's functionality.  Paladin's could boost Nether Holy with Excalibur and self-heal with Chameleon Robe.  Nether Holy has a small MP cost, so Paladins won't be impaired by their low base MP.  All shield-wearers could boost Nether Wind with Kaiser Plate.  All could absorb Nether Earth with Diamond Armlet while utilizing the +1 PA to boost spell damage and protecting themselves from Slow 2.  All could equip Punch Art to effectively replenish their MP upon its depletion, or they could equip Jump and turn themselves into Lancers to pierce reflect and M-EV.  The possibilities go on and on.  In comparison to these classes, Netherseer has the most PA, but the lowest HP and has no access to shields, so it serves as the glass cannon of Nether magic, just as the wizard is the glass cannon of faith magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 15, 2015, 10:13:02 am
When you put it that way I guess I can live with initial reflect. I just think that reflect funsies are needed more often. Also removing the speed bonuses for long bows is fine but the percentage procs like holy and hurricane needs a buff to compensate
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 15, 2015, 02:39:25 pm
Netherseer sounds awesome. If we use the Dancer job slot though, can we make it so Netherseer is available to both sexes?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 15, 2015, 03:00:00 pm
Hmmm. I'm not sure why so many people are pro-removing speed. Lancers are kind of a meh class already since they can't equip robes (unsure of why that was removed to start?), they're slow, and their skill set can easily backfire not only on sleeping units, but the AI "forgets" about a jump sometimes, so it will kill a unit that is targeted by a lethal jump already. On top of that, it makes the skillset very static, only able to cause a 1 target damage unlike other skillsets like Summon Magic which gives healing, damage, revival in AOE fashion. And Yes, there are a few benefits to Jump like Jumping out of spells before they resolve or to avoid poison, but this is this really worth all the problems with Jump?

It sounds reasonable to argue to make spears +X Jump except that when we look at the statistics in the tournament, not one person used +1 or +2 Jump. Three units used Ignore Height, yes, but I feel even those were oversights. Teleport is obviously better since it allows you to not only move as much height as you want but to also go through enemies and other obstacles, but Fly provides almost all the same benefit (there are exceptions, like in the Nelveska Temple map, but I digress). Most people knew that, and we see that 14 units have teleport. So when you decide to change the spear to +X Jump, you give very little reason for someone to use, say, Equip Polearm or the Lancer skillset in general.

You may say, "But that's why we're changing jump too to resolve faster!" Yes, but now you're decreasing one of the fewer benefits of Jump (if Jump resolves faster, this will mean that there is less chance for a Jumper to avoid a spell) to increase the likelihood that the AI will use jump. It still does not solve the obvious problems with Jump, like the AI using it to wake up (and kill) sleeping and charmed allies or the AI not recognizing their ally is going to resolve the jump and kills an enemy that was going to be killed by the Jump anyway.

I think it's a good start to buff Lancers, but why debuff their weapons so much? +X Jump is not a benefit that most people really want to begin with, and the primary purpose people equip spears currently is to A) Get the Jump bonus when using Jump or B) to increase the speed of units who have a speed based skillset like Talk Skill or Item to be more effective. The +2 speed on Javelin might be a bit obnoxious, but not when you consider that their primary users are just a meh class on most stats anyway.

Also, the +X speed is a non dependant ability. In almost all cases, regardless of the map or team they're facing, equipping speed on a particular unit benefits them. However, the +X Jump doesn't matter AT ALL on maps like Mandalia Plains, the Pub, or The Arena. Most of the Office maps it won't matter on either, and many others. It could be somewhat or very useful on some maps, but I'd even wager to say not the majority of them. Even +X Move would be better than +X Jump, as the designers of the maps have, in most cases, allowed +X Move to compensate if for some reason, a certain area of a map was only accessible to a +X Jump, but could be reached if the unit went around the obstacle like going up the stairs or something.

If we do remove +X speed from spears, I suggest boosting the Lancers considerably. I'm talking equip robes innately, boost PA to 12 for males, and increase base speed to 10.

As far as the +1 speed sword goes, I thought it would be nice, personally IF WE ALSO REMOVE +1 SPEED FROM SASUKE KNIFE. See, the +1 speed sword is heavily countered by the very good weapons you find in the sword field already. It may be a difficult choice, for say, a Martial Arts Dancer or Paladin to either equip the Lionheart or the +1 Speed sword. Both would be very useful. However, the Sasuke Knife is a Ninja Knife that has a pretty high WP on its own, but is balanced by the fact that it is not 2S or 2H. Well, ninjas aren't going to use it for the most part since that basically kills off a huge benefit to having a Ninja in the first place. So this leaves thieves, which if adding the +1 speed sword and removing the Sasuke Knife (or redesigning it...I'd say doing Always: Haste -1 Speed, which would beg for a redesign of the current trap weapon Masamune) would make the weapon not only accessible to thieves, but every class that can equip a sword (and there are a lot).

As far as the bows...eh...one of the problems with equipping a bow on the innate class is that you lose access to the Shield. Sure, you could add PA and the bows themselves would be as powerful, but it would slightly debuff them because the bows would be fired with less frequency. I guess if you added 2 PA to them, it would not debuff them, but then do you want to add 2 PA to the long bows? IDK how I feel about that, either.

If we want to talk about removing some weapons that provide benefits, let's talk about the +2MA weapons. There are literally a ton of these. In fact, every class except Ninja and Monk can innately equip at least one weapon that has greater WP, has some W-EV and is all around better than the C-Bag. Never mind the fact that Monks can't equip ANY weapons but bags, Ninjas can equip two Orichalcums to achieve a +2 MA effect, and that neither of these skill sets rely on MA at all (the lone, barely notable exception being Secret Fist from the Monk.)

The netherseer idea sounds pretty interesting. I'd love to see what we can do. I do have a couple comments on the suggestions posed.

Nether Earth needs a longer CT time if it will be PA*11 with AOE. A spell that strong that resolves in 3CT that can be boosted by Earth Clothes? I could see people using those monks now with Magic Attack UP and wrecking house (at least Focus Band would be used more often though). I'd suggest 5 CT on that. Maybe on Nether Holy too, though not sure.

I was thinking something that would be fun. A Nether Raise would be pretty cool. But what about adding a Nether Raise 2, where it Raises a dead unit with full HP but then makes them Undead when they get up? IDK, just a thought. I had been thinking about adding an ability like this to Geo or Wizard, but with this new skillset being proposed, that's something I'd be very interested in seeing.

Okay, done ranting now :D
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 15, 2015, 04:02:14 pm
I agree, Netherseer sounds interesting. Having a raise spell that is unfaith based would be very beneficial. I don't think a move can inflict and cancel a status at the same time unless the two statii cancel each other out, so I don't know about the nether raise 2. And if we are making this class available to both genders, can we also make bard like that as well? I know there is some gender hard-coding involved with those classes.

Also, did anyone see my previous post? Sometimes I am too subtle for my own good.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
Whoops.  Nether Earth 2 and Nether Holy 2 were supposed to have 5 CT.  The above post has been edited to reflect this intention.

@CT5Holy:
If we had male Netherseers, we would need a male Netherseer sprite.  Maybe we could merge the current Dancer and Bard sprites into a single class, then use entirely new male and female sprites for Netherseers.  I'm not sure of the work involved in this.

@silentkaster:
As for Jump and spears, I think that none of us can deny that the benefit of Jump is map-dependent, and even then it is something that most people can do without.  However, changing the Jump formula from SP to Jump gives players the opportunity to strongly influence the reliability of the Jump command.  One can leave the jump stat at 4 for a slow jump that is hard to land, but dodges spells, or one can max out the jump stat at 7 for a quick jump that can be used reliably to pierce evasion.  This is not possible with the current SP formula, since boosting SP to a comparable degree makes the unit broken in so many other ways. (E.g., 7 Jump would be equivalent to 17 SP.)  The new Jump formula also gives the Jump movement skills a new purpose, which is a motion I am always in favor of.

Spears' current SP bonus will be assimilated into the Lancer's base SP to ensure that Lancers will not be weakened by the change.

Equip Polearm will become less attractive as a support skill as far as SP boosting is concerned.  However, it will still have a purpose on units using the Jump command as a secondary skill, and on units who equip sticks.  All in all, the support skill takes a small hit; a price I am willing to pay for the above changes.

I am having difficulty following the proposal to give Lancers +2 SP and +2 PA if spears lose 1 SP.  Do you mean that the Lancer class needs +1 SP and +2 PA irrespective of the spear changes?

@dw6561:
I'll try commenting on a few of your changes.

Buffing Geomancers' PA/MA to 10/8 and 8/10: I think this change makes Squires less attractive on all fronts.  Squires have only 10/6 and 8/8 PA/MA, and worse, only 3 move.  The only jobs that can currently use Elemental better than Geomancers are Bards/Dancers and Scholars; three classes that may be redesigned in the next patch.  If these redesigns are implemented, Geomancers might just become the best users of Elemental.  All this aside, Geomancers are also the only class that can use Elemental well and equip a useful support skillset like White Magic or Time Magic.  These boons tend to compensate the slightly weaker Elemental damage in practice.

Samurai getting longbows and spears: I am in favour of this.  For what it's worth, samurai using longbows is historically accurate.

Sword changes: Most swords are more or less balanced with each other at the moment.  If we buff Platinum sword, we would need to adjust the other swords as well.  I must also remark that just because a particular weapon isn't being regularly used doesn't necessarily mean that it is underpowered.

Aegis Shield being too good: I personally think that the other shields are rather bad. In particular, the shields that give elemental weaknesses are hard to use on classes with no access to clothes.  Perhaps we can drop Aegis Shield's M-EV by 5~10 if need be.  Removing the +1 MA or Silence immunity would make the shield less attractive to mages, who learn Equip Shield specifically for those attributes.

0 WP bag: If any bag gets 0 WP, I suggest it be P Bag.

Oracles losing Blind: Not necessary in my opinion.  The problem with Blind isn't so much about its host skillset as it is about the AI being incapable of using it well.  One, the AI gives the Darkness status ailment a low priority, and two, the AI cannot discern which enemies rely on abilities that will be impaired by Darkness.  Unless somebody can convince me otherwise, I don't think these facts will change no matter which skillset we put Blind on.  This is why there's been a motion to add Darkness incidentally rather than especially, e.g., by having Grand Cross and Cyclops add Darkness.  This way, even if Darkness doesn't impair the target, the target at least suffers raw damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on August 15, 2015, 05:58:42 pm
A long time ago I suggest a movement ability that shortens the duration of negative status.  Instead of creating a new movement is it possible to attach such an ability directly to ignore height?

Speaking of movement abilities, what about a movement of speed +1?  I know it was suggested by Gaignun and it had a lot of support but it obviously wasn't implemented for 1.39.  Speculating about the ability I would say you can have it cost 750 jp and it would still probably get a lot of use.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 15, 2015, 06:05:34 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
Whoops.  Nether Earth 2 and Nether Holy 2 were supposed to have 5 CT.  The above post has been edited to reflect this intention.

@CT5Holy:
If we had male Netherseers, we would need a male Netherseer sprite.  Maybe we could merge the current Dancer and Bard sprites into a single class, then use entirely new male and female sprites for Netherseers.  I'm not sure of the work involved in this.

@silentkaster:
As for Jump and spears, I think that none of us can deny that the benefit of Jump is map-dependent, and even then it is something that most people can do without.  However, changing the Jump formula from SP to Jump gives players the opportunity to strongly influence the reliability of the Jump command.  One can leave the jump stat at 4 for a slow jump that is hard to land, but dodges spells, or one can max out the jump stat at 7 for a quick jump that can be used reliably to pierce evasion.  This is not possible with the current SP formula, since boosting SP to a comparable degree makes the unit broken in so many other ways. (E.g., 7 Jump would be equivalent to 17 SP.)  The new Jump formula also gives the Jump movement skills a new purpose, which is a motion I am always in favor of.

Spears' current SP bonus will be assimilated into the Lancer's base SP to ensure that Lancers will not be weakened by the change.

Equip Polearm will become less attractive as a support skill as far as SP boosting is concerned.  However, it will still have a purpose on units using the Jump command as a secondary skill, and on units who equip sticks.  All in all, the support skill takes a small hit; a price I am willing to pay for the above changes.

Sword changes: Most swords are more or less balanced with each other at the moment.  If we buff Platinum sword, we would need to adjust the other swords as well.  I must also remark that just because a particular weapon isn't being regularly used doesn't necessarily mean that it is underpowered.


Okay, I LOVE the Netherseer idea.

As for Equip Polearm, it could be given access to Cloths (especially if Dancer is merged) and that'd somewhat balance Spears becoming a bit less useful for Speed and such.

And with all of the Sword changes, what do you think specifically should be done with them?

I mean, each as they are.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 15, 2015, 07:25:37 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
@dw6561:
I'll try commenting on a few of your changes.

Buffing Geomancers' PA/MA to 10/8 and 8/10: I think this change makes Squires less attractive on all fronts.  Squires have only 10/6 and 8/8 PA/MA, and worse, only 3 move.  The only jobs that can currently use Elemental better than Geomancers are Bards/Dancers and Scholars; three classes that may be redesigned in the next patch.  If these redesigns are implemented, Geomancers might just become the best users of Elemental.  All this aside, Geomancers are also the only class that can use Elemental well and equip a useful support skillset like White Magic or Time Magic.  These boons tend to compensate the slightly weaker Elemental damage in practice.

Samurai getting longbows and spears: I am in favour of this.  For what it's worth, samurai using longbows is historically accurate.

Sword changes: Most swords are more or less balanced with each other at the moment.  If we buff Platinum sword, we would need to adjust the other swords as well.  I must also remark that just because a particular weapon isn't being regularly used doesn't necessarily mean that it is underpowered.

Aegis Shield being too good: I personally think that the other shields are rather bad. In particular, the shields that give elemental weaknesses are hard to use on classes with no access to clothes.  Perhaps we can drop Aegis Shield's M-EV by 5~10 if need be.  Removing the +1 MA or Silence immunity would make the shield less attractive to mages, who learn Equip Shield specifically for those attributes.

0 WP bag: If any bag gets 0 WP, I suggest it be P Bag.

Oracles losing Blind: Not necessary in my opinion.  The problem with Blind isn't so much about its host skillset as it is about the AI being incapable of using it well.  One, the AI gives the Darkness status ailment a low priority, and two, the AI cannot discern which enemies rely on abilities that will be impaired by Darkness.  Unless somebody can convince me otherwise, I don't think these facts will change no matter which skillset we put Blind on.  This is why there's been a motion to add Darkness incidentally rather than especially, e.g., by having Grand Cross and Cyclops add Darkness.  This way, even if Darkness doesn't impair the target, the target at least suffers raw damage.


Thanks for the feedback Gaignun. I'll have to admit that I'm not really used to the whole balancing thing at the moment, and it helps to know why things are the way they are. Maybe I should read up on some of the earlier stuff so that that I know why changes were made, just to save myself some trouble/embarrassment. And everything you said makes sense.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
@silentkaster:
As for Jump and spears, I think that none of us can deny that the benefit of Jump is map-dependent, and even then it is something that most people can do without.  However, changing the Jump formula from SP to Jump gives players the opportunity to strongly influence the reliability of the Jump command.  One can leave the jump stat at 4 for a slow jump that is hard to land, but dodges spells, or one can max out the jump stat at 7 for a quick jump that can be used reliably to pierce evasion.  This is not possible with the current SP formula, since boosting SP to a comparable degree makes the unit broken in so many other ways. (E.g., 7 Jump would be equivalent to 17 SP.)  The new Jump formula also gives the Jump movement skills a new purpose, which is a motion I am always in favor of.

Spears' current SP bonus will be assimilated into the Lancer's base SP to ensure that Lancers will not be weakened by the change.

Equip Polearm will become less attractive as a support skill as far as SP boosting is concerned.  However, it will still have a purpose on units using the Jump command as a secondary skill, and on units who equip sticks.  All in all, the support skill takes a small hit; a price I am willing to pay for the above changes.


On a brighter note, that is an excellent take on the jump issue that I hadn't considered.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 17, 2015, 12:51:55 pm
On the topic of changes, I wanted to look through Swords and such and see what could be tweaked about each or changed in general or just compile what suggestions people had already.

Phoenix Blade: W-EV 10%
Tactician's Blade: No change necessary.
Mystic Blade: 10 WP
Moonlight: Blade Beam Proc change from 33% to 50%
Blood Sword: NCN
Coral Sword: NCN
Ancient Sword: NCN
Sleep Sword: NCN
Platinum Sword: 13 WP
Shieldrender: Change to Rapier, W-EV 20-25% WP 10, 2H
Icebrand: NCN
Rune Blade: NCN
Lionheart: NCN
Ultima Weapon: Proc increased to 50%

All in all, most are fine as they are.



Also, something I've noticed. While I'm more than glad to support Samurai gaining access to Spears (and bows but spears are the focus for this)

What would prevent people from using a Spear (if some gain 2H) over a Katana, since most Spears have more WP than Katanas do, with more range? Not too big of a concern, just something I thought might happen.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 17, 2015, 01:01:05 pm
We would have to allow all spears to be two handed for it to work. Like a two handed dragon whisker is a bad ass weapon for the samurai considering its awesome WP.

Of course we should lower the WP a bit in order for it to be a bit balanced. Like maybe to 12 WP or something. Javelin can stay at 9 and the other spears should be 10 or 11

Also for the netherseer skills, why not add in Nether Holy. Using Dark Holy's animation. I think that would work
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 17, 2015, 02:36:19 pm
Quote from: Barren on August 17, 2015, 01:01:05 pm
We would have to allow all spears to be two handed for it to work. Like a two handed dragon whisker is a bad ass weapon for the samurai considering its awesome WP.

Of course we should lower the WP a bit in order for it to be a bit balanced. Like maybe to 12 WP or something. Javelin can stay at 9 and the other spears should be 10 or 11

Also for the netherseer skills, why not add in Nether Holy. Using Dark Holy's animation. I think that would work


I worded that weird.

I'd meant more along the lines of:

Why use a katana for offense purposes when, if spears are made largely 2H, they'd be utterly superior?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 17, 2015, 03:13:10 pm
Because samurais has used spears as weapons and if you watched the Seven Samurai or the anime Samurai Seven, the Seven Samurai taught the villagers to use bow and arrow to fight off the bandits who would rob them of their rice. That's the historical context of why it makes sense.

In reality though it gives samurai more physical damage options aside from katana. Though katanas should still deal the most damage for them. Assuming we increase the katana WP
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 17, 2015, 04:58:12 pm
I agree that if most/all spears become two handed that the WP should be decreased. If katanas get a significant WP increase though, some should maybe loose 2S or something. We should also consider the impact this will have on lancers and paladins. Also, is there a consensus on how to change the masamune yet? I think I've heard something along the lines of -1 speed, always: haste but I'm not too sure.

As for the nether spells, were we thinking of moving the quake/tornado spells to netherseer in the form of nether wind and nether earth, or are we just using the animations for them?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 17, 2015, 06:25:54 pm
-1 speed on the masamune sounds more reasonable than -2 and always haste. Its a bit of a pace breaker or rather non ideal for a unit to always hasted. Obviously a neat trick is to give it an item that is immune to slow i.e. diamond armlet or sprint shoes for even more speed. I suppose if you want a unit that has low hp but always hasted you can do for example a thief with equip heavy blade and give like item for secondary or punch art if you want to combine charm + death sentence. Masamune, Thief Hat, Secret Clothes, Sprint Shoes. The thief would end up with 11 speed (as it stands right now) but with haste s/he would have like 14 speed (if I'm doing my numbers right).

As for tornado/quake I think its fine the way they are. Except for maybe raising the CT so it'll take longer for it to cast in exchange for great power. That I do agree should be nerfed. The MP cost also justifies the CT change
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 17, 2015, 08:14:14 pm

If the spears WP is lowered, this would significantly affect the jump damage.

Samurais could use poles instead of spears. It's a really underused weapon type and it wouldn't be very different from spears.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 17, 2015, 09:44:06 pm
If Netherseers are really wanted to be a thing, and no current sprite would just quite fit, then I could make a few sketches for anyone who would want to sprite them

I have more than a few ideas in mind, so I'll give that a go sometime today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 18, 2015, 01:00:26 am
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 17, 2015, 08:14:14 pm
If the spears WP is lowered, this would significantly affect the jump damage.

Samurais could use poles instead of spears. It's a really underused weapon type and it wouldn't be very different from spears.


This is true.  Giving Samurai poles instead of spears would indeed cause fewer headaches with Jump.  However, there are a few points to consider:

At the moment, the highest damage a samurai (without berserk) can achieve with katana is 330~463 damage (Asura Knife, 13 PA, Attack UP, 2H).  With poles, this becomes 346~485 (Whale Whisker, 14 MA, Attack UP, 2H, 108 Gems).  Ivory Rod is a close second at 340~476 with 18 MA, Attack UP, and 2H. Although the damage between katana and poles are comparable, poles have two significant advantages over katana:

So, while giving samurai poles avoids requiring a spear rebalance, it will buff the samurai class much more than spears would, and might even make the katana class obsolete in the metagame.  Be it spears or poles, we will probably need to fine-tune things to keep everything balanced.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 18, 2015, 04:45:43 am


Part of the issue with poles being so strong on the Samurais is due to female Samurai having 11 MA while the male Samurai only gets 9 PA. I would prefer for female Samurais to have a viable physical attack option and not remain restrained to Draw Outs despite the new weapon options that would be available to them. If they are set at 10 PA and 10 MA respectively, it could bring some edge back to katanas, but would 10 PA on male Samurais be too much?

Whether it's spears or poles, they would stand somewhere between bows and katanas for damage, probably closer to the latter, I'm thinking 75% of the way. I did a bit of math with bows like you  have with katanas and poles:

Atheist Bow: 141~198 damage (12 PA, 8 SP, A-UP)
Ultimus Bow: 143~200 damage (14 PA, 8 SP, A-UP)
Windslash Bow: 122~171 damage (11 PA, 9 SP, A-UP, 108 Gems)

(My suggested PA/MA changes not taken into account in the calculations. I also ignored Zodiac compatibility, so the following numbers may be off a bit)

There may be better damage setups but it's just to use as a measurement. If we wanted poles/spears to be 75% of the way between bows and katanas damage-wise, then:

Strongest Pole/Spear on a Samurai: 283~397 damage

As a result, Iron Fan would drop to 11 WP and Whale Whisker becomes 8 WP. But the WP drops wouldn't be as drastic if the base PA/MA values are changed. (Assuming poles are chosen of course. Spears would have no choice but to get that drastic WP drop)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 18, 2015, 07:15:26 am
Dropping samurai MA by 1 would be a good start.  Concerning katana, we could either give samurai +1 PA or give some katana +1 WP.

I don't think all poles need to become two-handable. Unlike katana, this weapon class is shared with several other jobs.  Dropping the WP of all poles so that they are only viable when two-handed will hurt these other jobs.

@Reks: Concerning Rapier, didn't a high W-EV sword that was never used exist in a previous patch?  Anyway, I am wondering if there is some way to make Platinum Sword more appealing without increasing its WP to avoid power creep.  Could we merge Rapier and Platinum Sword into a single weapon with 12 WP and 15~20 WP?

Quote from: Barren on August 17, 2015, 01:01:05 pmAlso for the netherseer skills, why not add in Nether Holy. Using Dark Holy's animation. I think that would work


Well, Netherseers are currently sitting with only 8 active skills right now, so I think there's room for it.  It could be something like:

Dark Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*15), Dark element, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, Evadable, Reflectable, 400 JP

Although this name isn't thematically consistent, and Nether Dark would sound like it adds the status effect.  Might anyone have any recommendations?

Quote from: Reks on August 17, 2015, 09:44:06 pm
If Netherseers are really wanted to be a thing, and no current sprite would just quite fit, then I could make a few sketches for anyone who would want to sprite them

I have more than a few ideas in mind, so I'll give that a go sometime today or tomorrow.


That sounds great, Reks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 18, 2015, 10:53:43 am
Quote from: Gaignun on August 18, 2015, 07:15:26 am@Reks: Concerning Rapier, didn't a high W-EV sword that was never used exist in a previous patch?  Anyway, I am wondering if there is some way to make Platinum Sword more appealing without increasing its WP to avoid power creep.  Could we merge Rapier and Platinum Sword into a single weapon with 12 WP and 15~20 WP?


The Rapier idea is mostly to replace the Shieldrender, so the actual W-EV isn't so important. Since it'd effectively double attack now and again, having higher W-EV might be a stretch, so I'd be more than happy to support Platinum Swords gaining it instead
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 18, 2015, 12:06:09 pm
Wait, does the Rapier inherit Shieldrender's Shield Break proc?



Following up on samurai stuff, if we drop samurai MA by 1, then Whale Whisker and Asura Knife will have equal power with optimum equipment.  From there, we can either boost samurai PA or katana WP.  My vote is for katana WP so that katana are more attractive to paladins.  If Asura Knife's WP increases from 10 to 11, then Asura Knife's WP will become marginally more powerful than Platinum Sword (at 12 WP) for Paladins -- a fair trade considering Asura Knife is blocked by Fire resistance.

Bear in mind that a male samurai with a 11 WP Asura Knife will 1HKO just about everything: Its max damage increases to 363~509.  However, given how difficult it is to field a melee samurai, and how inept this samurai will be at using his own primary skillset, I am personally OK with this.

Among poles, the only poles samurai are currently able to wield with two hands are Ivory Rod and Whale Whisker.  I suggest poles get mixed up a bit.  How does the following sound?

Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

These proposals make poles weapons whose procs require high faith to be effective.  The semi-reliable proc rates means that they can serve a purpose even without Two Hands, particularly on Oracles with low Fury. Gokuu Rod's Innocent proc is removed to avoid redundancy with the new Atheist Bow, and Ivory Rod's +2 MA is removed to avoid MA-stacking and to encourage players to equip other poles.  Iron Fan is made Dark elemental for a slight damage boost with Golden Hairpin/108 Gems and also because there are so few Dark elemental weapons in existence.

The above are merely suggestions.  Feel free to chime in.  I am sure there are better ideas.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 18, 2015, 12:10:38 pm
I think going 10 PA/MA for Male/Female (respectively) Samurais would be okay. Male samurais really need some extra PA IMO. They are semi-lackluster damage dealers unless you make them berserk and PA stacked which can do huge numbers but gives the unit really only one purpose at that point. I think seeing a few more skills using a PA as opposed to the MA formula also will see some more use out of male samurais with the slightly buffed PA stat. Poles are a great addition but they really do boost the damage output significantly. I think spears would be ok, but obviously whatever weapon class we go with there will be kinks to work out. Samurai as is, is a fine class. Not necessarily the best SCC class, but for sure a great class to have on any team. I think adding a new weapon option and maybe giving them different PA/MA (or maybe give them 9 speed? Not sure how we would decide on adjusting the PA/MA if they do see a speed increase but, Samurais really do struggle to be even a semi-speedy unit reaching even 10(+) speed, and I don't think 9 base SP would be too OP).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 18, 2015, 12:39:25 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 18, 2015, 12:06:09 pm
Wait, does the Rapier inherit Shieldrender's Shield Break proc?



Following up on samurai stuff, if we drop samurai MA by 1, then Whale Whisker and Asura Knife will have equal power with optimum equipment.  From there, we can either boost samurai PA or katana WP.  My vote is for katana WP so that katana are more attractive to paladins.  If Asura Knife's WP increases from 10 to 11, then Asura Knife's WP will become marginally more powerful than Platinum Sword (at 12 WP) for Paladins -- a fair trade considering Asura Knife is blocked by Fire resistance.

Bear in mind that a male samurai with a 11 WP Asura Knife will 1HKO just about everything: Its max damage increases to 363~509.  However, given how difficult it is to field a melee samurai, and how inept this samurai will be at using his own primary skillset, I am personally OK with this.

Among poles, the only poles samurai are currently able to wield with two hands are Ivory Rod and Whale Whisker.  I suggest poles get mixed up a bit.  How does the following sound?

Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

These proposals make poles weapons whose procs require high faith to be effective.  The semi-reliable proc rates means that they can serve a purpose even without Two Hands, particularly on Oracles with low Fury. Gokuu Rod's Innocent proc is removed to avoid redundancy with the new Atheist Bow, and Ivory Rod's +2 MA is removed to avoid MA-stacking and to encourage players to equip other poles.  Iron Fan is made Dark elemental for a slight damage boost with Golden Hairpin/108 Gems and also because there are so few Dark elemental weapons in existence.

The above are merely suggestions.  Feel free to chime in.  I am sure there are better ideas.


Yes, it is.

Mostly because, as it is, the Shieldrender is next to useless. I don't believe anybody has used it in the current version, so my idea was to give it more WP but take away it's 2H capabilities to make it more enticing for a potential double-attack/shield destroyer, especially if shields get improved this time around.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 18, 2015, 04:31:26 pm
Quote from: Mudvayne on August 18, 2015, 12:10:38 pm
I think going 10 PA/MA for Male/Female (respectively) Samurais would be okay. Male samurais really need some extra PA IMO. They are semi-lackluster damage dealers unless you make them berserk and PA stacked which can do huge numbers but gives the unit really only one purpose at that point. I think seeing a few more skills using a PA as opposed to the MA formula also will see some more use out of male samurais with the slightly buffed PA stat. Poles are a great addition but they really do boost the damage output significantly. I think spears would be ok, but obviously whatever weapon class we go with there will be kinks to work out. Samurai as is, is a fine class. Not necessarily the best SCC class, but for sure a great class to have on any team. I think adding a new weapon option and maybe giving them different PA/MA (or maybe give them 9 speed? Not sure how we would decide on adjusting the PA/MA if they do see a speed increase but, Samurais really do struggle to be even a semi-speedy unit reaching even 10(+) speed, and I don't think 9 base SP would be too OP).


Remember, a lot of little things add up. I would object to bumping Samurai base speed up to 9. Implementing the katana and PA changes and boosting the speed means we're letting the Samurai hit for a ton, and more often as well. Jobs with 9 base speed are plenty strong and are used at a pretty high rate. 7/20 jobs have 9+ base speed, but these jobs are represented more in strong teams, based on the top 8 of S3 and S4. In S3, two-thirds of the units (22/32) were a job with 9+ base speed. In S4, half (16/32) of the units in top 8 had a job with 9+ base speed.

Let's also remember what Gaignun said a little while ago - just because an item isn't being used, doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Shieldrender looks like a totally reasonable option. Same with Platinum Sword. In fact, Platinum Sword is prob your best bet for getting OHKOs off a melee attack right now.

I think perhaps looking at items/abilities that weren't used in the two most recent tournaments would give us a better idea of which what's generally perceived as "bad."
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on August 18, 2015, 04:42:19 pm
Agreed.  Once it was shown that Shieldrender can double strike it was starting to see a lot of play which caused it to be nerfed.  Same with Bowguns. 

What we can do is choose some rarely used items and see how they work in reality vs perception.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 18, 2015, 05:03:30 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on August 18, 2015, 04:31:26 pm
Remember, a lot of little things add up. I would object to bumping Samurai base speed up to 9. Implementing the katana and PA changes and boosting the speed means we're letting the Samurai hit for a ton, and more often as well. Jobs with 9 base speed are plenty strong and are used at a pretty high rate. 7/20 jobs have 9+ base speed, but these jobs are represented more in strong teams, based on the top 8 of S3 and S4. In S3, two-thirds of the units (22/32) were a job with 9+ base speed. In S4, half (16/32) of the units in top 8 had a job with 9+ base speed.

Let's also remember what Gaignun said a little while ago - just because an item isn't being used, doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Shieldrender looks like a totally reasonable option. Same with Platinum Sword. In fact, Platinum Sword is prob your best bet for getting OHKOs off a melee attack right now.

I think perhaps looking at items/abilities that weren't used in the two most recent tournaments would give us a better idea of which what's generally perceived as "bad."
Quote from: reinoe on August 18, 2015, 04:42:19 pm
Agreed.  Once it was shown that Shieldrender can double strike it was starting to see a lot of play which caused it to be nerfed.  Same with Bowguns. 

What we can do is choose some rarely used items and see how they work in reality vs perception.


Yes, and it's seen that the nerf made it harder to use when you simply have better options out there.

Shieldrender still works, so to speak.

You can still 2H it, and go rawr in someone's face for a lot of damage.

But the problem is that the same result can be achieved more easily and without the occasional proc, and people haven't used it whatsoever in the last two tournaments, probably for a good reason.

After I work tonight, I'll play around with Shieldrender on mock fights and compare it to other things, but as it stands I do believe it could be made better than it's current, nerfed incarnation without becoming OP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on August 18, 2015, 05:29:51 pm
Shieldrender's use I feel is too isolated atm. I could see it causing trouble for some shield absorption and/or grand cross users, but I don't know if it would a deal breaker. And after it does shield breaking you have a low wp and w-ev sword. If not changed to rapier, maybe increase w-ev on it to like 15-20% or rename it bladerender give it 33% weapon break. Not sure if weapon break would be too OP though, although it would encourage more maintenance usage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 11:47:35 am
I also still propose changing Geomancys formula from (MA+2)/2*PA to (MA+3)/2*PA. I've proposed this before but no-one ever really agrees with me. Since there has been suggestions to improve Geomancers base stats (which IMO are fine), I think maybe changing the Elemental formula (instead/as well?) would be nice. It not only helps Geomancers but any unit using Elemental which we mostly all can agree on, does have a pretty meh damage output even though it is instant, unevadable, and can trigger status procs. There are other unevadable moves with much higher AoE, higher damage output, can trigger status effects (Silf inflicing Dont Move/Dont Act while being unevadable), so I just feel like Elemental just lacks in comparison. This small buff won't make Elemental all of a sudden super appealing and OP, but it can make the damage output just slightly higher on elemental to give it that littttle extra oomph it needs IMO to actually be relevant on more units than just MA stacked units specifically built for elemental or having to rely on buffing  your PA/MA either through Accumulate/Focus, PA/MA Save, Magic/Battle Song, etc before getting a good damage output.

Plus, having it be MA+3 may not actually be all that more useful unless you end up with an odd ending MA stat, correct? Say you're 10 MA, so + 3 /2, would give you 6.5 * PA which I think FFT rounds down to 6 * PA? Do I understand that right? So it actually would only buff units that do end in an odd numbered MA stat?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 19, 2015, 02:55:54 pm
Unless I'm wrong, isn't the geomancy formula (PA+2)/2*MA? Also, geomancy is free (no MP cost) compared to those other AOE attacks that do pretty much the same thing, so the lower damage is a good trade off in my opinion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 19, 2015, 03:07:03 pm
Maybe we should also increase the geomancy status proc to 25%?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 19, 2015, 03:28:15 pm
Quote from: dw6561 on August 19, 2015, 02:55:54 pm
Unless I'm wrong, isn't the geomancy formula (PA+2)/2*MA? Also, geomancy is free (no MP cost) compared to those other AOE attacks that do pretty much the same thing, so the lower damage is a good trade off in my opinion.


Geomancy is:

Free (doesn't cost MP)
Instant
AoE
Unblockable
Procs various status

So in my eyes, while it's among my favorite skills to use, strengthening it is a bit iffy, even if it's increasing just a single number in it's formula.

Increasing the n in (PA+n)/2*MA won't really do much.

Right now it's a 2, but in the case of the /2, it'll be rounded down.

So say you increase it to 3, and the unit in question has 12 PA and MA.

It'd then become (12+3)/2*12. The (12+3) would come first, so 15/2*12, and it'd end up being 7*12.

And it always rounds down. So you'd need 13 PA for it to become 8*12.



All it would really do is lower the PA required by 1 to achieve the higher number that's multiplied against your MA.

Which doesn't really say for much since MA is still the meatier part of the formula, and ignoring that would make your damage suffer.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 19, 2015, 03:46:58 pm
As a Geo Builder this SCC, women were my focus in this due to the MA pump. In regular, when I can double my equipment up, It's Rune Blade, Genji Shield, Twisted Headband, Power Sleeve, 108 Gems. So PA is Now 12, MA is 11. So that's 77 Flat (PA +2/2 = 7 *11) + Boosted Elements, + MA Attack Up... Roughly 120, no evade, weakness can be applied, statuses can proc. Faith doesn't matter if I remember my tests.

Hit two units, and land a lucky stop, DM, DA... (OR cast it two times for most of people's HP. Scholars or any decent poke equals a kill.

+ At that MA and PA Yin Yang, Black and White Magic, Summon and Martial Arts(Maybe) become viable. Take the most common 4 or five geomancy and two utility spells on them. (Ouch.)

So, In my opinion, don't touch Geomancy. It's balanced that it caps at 120 or so reliable damage from a shorter range, and to do it right means the unit can't do much else. (See low MP totals.) Other Units hit harder from further away with better set ups. OR close faster and are in your face.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 19, 2015, 03:52:46 pm
Quote from: gatebuster202 on August 19, 2015, 03:46:58 pm
As a Geo Builder this SCC, women were my focus in this due to the MA pump. In regular, when I can double my equipment up, It's Rune Blade, Genji Shield, Twisted Headband, Power Sleeve, 108 Gems. So PA is Now 12, MA is 11. So that's 77 Flat (PA +2/2 = 7 *11) + Boosted Elements, + MA Attack Up... Roughly 120, no evade, weakness can be applied, statuses can proc. Faith doesn't matter if I remember my tests.

Hit two units, and land a lucky stop, DM, DA... (OR cast it two times for most of people's HP. Scholars or any decent poke equals a kill.

+ At that MA and PA Yin Yang, Black and White Magic, Summon and Martial Arts(Maybe) become viable. Take the most common 4 or five geomancy and two utility spells on them. (Ouch.)

So, In my opinion, don't touch Geomancy. It's balanced that it caps at 120 or so reliable damage from a shorter range, and to do it right means the unit can't do much else. (See low MP totals.) Other Units hit harder from further away with better set ups. OR close faster and are in your face.


And can be increased further.

I have a snowballing team that builds MA with Song and Focus.

While building up to stupid damage is obviously what it's for, even after a few uses of both the damage went from 120 to 160 and above.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 03:55:29 pm
Oops I did write the formula wrong, I did mean change it to (PA+3)/2*MA. Adding that 3 in there WON'T make a huge difference unless you do end up with an odd ending PA* point, meaning it won't make it super OP but does offer the chance to ever so slightly boost your damage output if you use say, the Mystic Blade that adds +1 MA/PA which could leave you with an odd ending PA stat if that was the only PA boosting gear you use.

Maybe (PA+3)/2*(MA+1)? Like I said I am not proposing being able to do 180 damage geomancy on every unit making it super OP. I just find it averages out at <100 damage on most units unless every item is there to boost MA and the unit has magic attack up and 108 gems for elemental boosting also. That's a lot of requirements to buff a unit to do only mediocre damage.

What is the status proc rate currently for Geomancy? 20%? Upping to 25% doesn't seem too out of line. Not 25% and an increased damage formula though, one or the other.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 19, 2015, 04:04:37 pm
Quote from: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 03:55:29 pm
Oops I did write the formula wrong, I did mean change it to (PA+3)/2*MA. Adding that 3 in there WON'T make a huge difference unless you do end up with an odd ending PA* point, meaning it won't make it super OP but does offer the chance to ever so slightly boost your damage output if you use say, the Mystic Blade that adds +1 MA/PA which could leave you with an odd ending PA stat if that was the only PA boosting gear you use.

Maybe (PA+3)/2*(MA+1)? Like I said I am not proposing being able to do 180 damage geomancy on every unit making it super OP. I just find it averages out at <100 damage on most units unless every item is there to boost MA and the unit has magic attack up and 108 gems for elemental boosting also. That's a lot of requirements to buff a unit to do only mediocre damage.

What is the status proc rate currently for Geomancy? 20%? Upping to 25% doesn't seem too out of line. Not 25% and an increased damage formula though, one or the other.


The mediocre damage is not the catching point of Geomancy, though.

That it inflicts status is pretty powerful.

That it's instant, unevadable, and AoE? It really doesn't need to be doing stupid-high damage.



So yes while the damage is mediocre, it DOES build up. It's just not stellar on units that don't have the stats to make the damage worthwhile.



Though a weapon (like a gun, perhaps) that cast a geomancy spell on attack would be kinda nifty.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 04:07:45 pm
I think a gun or maybe a book (since it does use a similar type formula using both PA/MA) that procs/shoots geomancy would be super cool. I think maybe adding a demi gun and maybe a geomancy book or something would be pretty unique additions.

Speaking of books... They seem to be a pretty under used weapon class entirely. I don't think I've personally ever used a unit that focused on using a book, and can't really remember or reference any teams that have. Not proposing anything since I'm drawing a blank, but it does seem to be pretty much the least used weapon type besides maybe Cloths.

On the subject of cloths, I know they are Dancer-specific weapons since Vanilla, but normally Dancers will opt out for a different weapon most of the time. Would maybe allowing other classes to use Cloths allow them to see more use also? Change their stats/buffs? It's a small class of only 3 weapons, but still. Between books and cloths, there was only 1 unit using either weapon type in the SCC tourney. I can't remember the stats for books/cloths from the previous tournament, but I'd be willing to assume it's probably around 1 use for both weapon types also.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 19, 2015, 09:38:14 pm
Honestly, Geo procing at 25% would be the only change I'd consider after thinking all day on it. Now, if the Books cast four of our Geomancies, that would be nice. (Not the Stop procs, or Don't Act.) Honestly a Cancel:Charging would be good. I'd even sacrifice the Stop for that, and then might consider a PA+1 overall in exchange for losing stop of the potential status list. Though, IF we do cancel: Charge and remove Stop, I'd really only think that's balanced if we go to 25% proc.

@Reks, I had considering synergy. It gets stupid with good Ability Synergy. Basic Skill, Sing, Earth Absorbing MA Save. Yeah, I'll consider using them in my Regular Season as the heavy hitters. (Maybe Celes gets ported to my regular team, since she has like, seven ninja kills.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 10:43:12 pm
Damage split is also pretty meh. Maybe up it to 40% from 33%?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 20, 2015, 04:28:05 am

Some of the Elemental abilities are very situational. What are the odds of someone using Lava Ball or Quicksand? Maps could be changed, if not completely redesigned, to see some of the less common Elemental skills in action more often. The same goes for the most common ones being toned down. This won't happen in 140 due to the sheer amount of time investment this would require, especially since in many cases it wouldn't just be limited to some panel changes. But when the time comes for it I'd be willing to learn and help.


I wanted to add something about the Shieldrender. I feel it's quite similar to Dual Cutters, but weaker in every aspect except it can break shields (which still has a chance to fail). Dual Cutters come with +1 Move, higher WP and W-EV, and with two of them, you're almost guaranteed an extra attack. So either 2S or more W-EV on the Shieldrender (at least 20) wouldn't be farfetched in my opinion. I'd even throw in both.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 20, 2015, 07:08:42 am
Maybe we can change one of the daggers to swordbreaker which can have a chance to proc weapon break
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 20, 2015, 07:30:40 am
Quote from: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 04:07:45 pmSpeaking of books... They seem to be a pretty under used weapon class entirely. I don't think I've personally ever used a unit that focused on using a book, and can't really remember or reference any teams that have. Not proposing anything since I'm drawing a blank, but it does seem to be pretty much the least used weapon type besides maybe Cloths.


Books are hard to use.  The only class with PA and MA high enough for decent damage is scholars, and scholars, being squishy as they are, usually keep their fury at 40 and cast magic from a safe distance.  If scholars get redesigned (fingers crossed), I would like to give them more HP as well as shields so that they can use books more safely.

Cloths aren't used because Dancers aren't used, haha.  Maybe we could give both Bard/Dancers and Netherseers cloths in a future patch.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 20, 2015, 04:52:55 pm
Quote from: Barren on August 20, 2015, 07:08:42 am
Maybe we can change one of the daggers to swordbreaker which can have a chance to proc weapon break


That seems like it would be kind of broken (no pun intended) if it had too high of a proc rate since most melee units would be severely handicapped by having no weapon. Though I guess it would be balanced in that weapon break itself is percentage based.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 20, 2015, 07:30:40 am
Books are hard to use.  The only class with PA and MA high enough for decent damage is scholars, and scholars, being squishy as they are, usually keep their fury at 40 and cast magic from a safe distance.  If scholars get redesigned (fingers crossed), I would like to give them more HP as well as shields so that they can use books more safely.

Cloths aren't used because Dancers aren't used, haha.  Maybe we could give both Bard/Dancers and Netherseers cloths in a future patch.


I do agree that books are hard to use. And if the changes to scholar do happen, there is probably no need to tamper with the books themselves because they seem to be balanced at the moment. Although I do think that monster dict could have less WP and/or a different proc.

As for giving cloths to bard/dancer and netherseer, I think that's a great idea. I've never been enticed to use a dancer because of the cloths though, even if they do give buffs. Maybe cloths should be changed some to make them more attractive, or we can use the equip polearm idea.

Some Side Notes:
How is the AI going to deal with having both sing/dance abilities in one skill set, if we are merging them?

What does "proc" mean anyway? I've been told it's short for procedure or process but I've been stumped on that for ages.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 20, 2015, 05:26:11 pm
In short "proc" mean programmed random occurance. It triggers under the correct circumstances. Elemental is a prime example of that.

Just like when we use the term "sand bag" it's a resurrection/healing chain. The sand bagging can continue until the loop gets broken
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 21, 2015, 04:34:21 am
I do not know the precise origin, but the first person I heard use the term "sandbag" in the way it is used now was Archae.l (I love the word filter Xifanie), an old commentator of FFT 1.3 AI tournaments and Let's Plays.  It's a bit of a misappropriation: In English, "to sandbag" is used in the context of sports to mean "playing at less than optimum performance for selfish gain."  As an example, in the London 2012 Summer Games, several badminton teams attempted to intentionally lose games in order to improve their positioning in later rounds.  These teams were accused of "sandbagging" and were disqualified.


I am taking a break from work to summarize all of my personal proposals for 1.40 so far.  There have been a lot of ideas tossed around recently, so I'm summarizing everything here for ease of reference.  Some proposals reflect those contributed by other users; other proposals are entirely new.


PALADIN: +5 C-EV
MONK: -15 MP, -1 PA (To avoid crazy Netherseer damage and encourage Focus Band use; for non-casters, the PA loss is compensated with a headband buff; see below)
SUMMONER: +20 MP
LANCER: +1 SP, -1 Jump, can now equip robes
SAMURAI: +1 PA, -1 MA, can now equip longbows and poles
SCHOLAR: Redesigned
--- Male | Female
HP 134 | 125
MP 086 | 092
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 08 | 10
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 0 | 0
Can equip Sword, Rod, Staff, Book, Pole, Shield, Helmet, Armor, Robe, Accessory
BARD/DANCER: Merged into a single class
--- Male | Female
HP 144 | 135
MP 067 | 072
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 10 | 12
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Knife, Sword, Harp, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Accessory
Netherseer: New class
--- Male | Female
HP 113 | 106
MP 072 | 077
SP 08 | 08
PA 12 | 10
MA 06 | 08
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Sword, Ninjatou, Book, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robe, Accessory


Basic skill:
Heal: Range increased from 1 to 3, now heals Innocent as well
Wish: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80
Ultima: CT reduced from 5 to 3

Item
Ether: MP heal increased from 30 to 40
Hi-Ether: MP heal increased from 70 to 80
Maintenance: Changed to a movement ability

Punch Art
Revive: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80

White Magic
Protect: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Protect, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100
Shell: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Shell, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100.
Regen: Moved to Lore

Black Magic
Poison: Moved to Lore
Frog: Moved to Yin Yang Magic
Death: Moved to Lore
Bio: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Bio 2: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Magic Missile: New skill, Dmg_B(MA*WP), Weapon element, 5 Rng, 6 MP, 0 CT, 200 JP

Time Magic
Haste: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Slow: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Stop: Accuracy modifier decreased from 70 to 65
Half of MP: Inherited from Summon Magic

Summon Magic
Titan: Now ignores M-EV, MP cost increased from 25 to 35, JP cost increased from 150 to 250
Carbunkle: MP cost removed
Half of MP: Moved to Time Magic

Steal
Heretic: Moved to Ninjutsu
Bad Luck: CT cost decreased from 4 to 0
Quickening: Removed from the game
Awareness: Moved to Lore

Yin Yang Magic
Frog: Received from Black Magic

Jump
CT formula changed from 50/SP to 21/Jump

Draw Out
Bizen Boat: AoE reduced from 2 to 1, Range increased from 0 to 1
Heaven's Cloud: Slow proc rate increased from 20% to 25%
Muramasa: Death Sentence proc rate increased from 20% to 25%

Ninjutsu
Heretic: Received from Steal
Misogi: New skill, Removes Blind/Silence/Poison/Slow/Don't Move, Self-target, 0 CT, 0 MP, 100 JP

Lore
Mad Science: Given to Nether Magic
Bio: Given to Black Magic
Bio 2: Given to Black Magic
Bio 3: Removed from the game
Poison: Inherited from Black Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Regen: Inherited from White Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Death: Inherited from Black Magic
Tornado: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Protect/Shell, Wind element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Quake: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Haste/Regen, Earth element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Damage Split: Given to Netherseer
Awareness: Inherited from Steal, now also applies EV even when charging/performing

Sing/Dance
All songs and dances are combined into a single skill set

Nether Magic (new skill set)
Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Dark Holy: Dmg_B(PA*15), Dark elemental, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 300 JP
Mad Science: Inherited from Lore, CT reduced from 4 to 3
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Damage Split: Inherited from Lore


Swords
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Shieldrender: Redesign?
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

Katana
Kotetsu Knife: WP increased from 9 to 10
Masamune: SP increased from -2 to -1, now adds Slow and Stop immunity

Staves
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

Guns
Mythril Gun: Changed to Demi Gun, Casts Demi, ignores M-EV, 6 Rng, Forced Two-Hands

Longbows
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Atheist Bow: Innocent proc rate decreased from 100% to 50%, Range increased from 4 to 5

Spears
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, +2 Jump
Spear/Mythril Spear/Partisan/Holy Lance: Redesign?

Poles
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

Cloths
Redesign?

Bags
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add MP Regen (or not if this not a trivial hack)

Shields
Genji Shield: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Aegis Shield: M-EV decreased from 30 to 25
Mirror Shield: New shield, 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield, 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen (Modified version of Reks' Bulwark)

Headbands
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

Armor
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence

Accessories
Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump (for mad hops)
N-Kai Armlet: Gains Darkness immunity
108 Gems: Gains Faith/Innocent immunity


That's all for now.  Back to work :<
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 21, 2015, 06:37:19 am
Can we also add the immune death sentence to the genji shield and the gold armor? It prevents the AI from doing something foolish and let the enemy roam freely for a couple of turns and then DS failing spectulary
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 21, 2015, 09:07:50 am
Sure.  The changes are added.  I also added a few accessory and bag changes that were forgotten.

Quote from: dw6561 on August 20, 2015, 04:52:55 pmHow is the AI going to deal with having both sing/dance abilities in one skill set, if we are merging them?


My educated guess is that there will be nothing wrong with the skills themselves; the only difference between Song and Dance is the targets.  There might be difficulty with the performing animation, though.  Every skillset thus far uses only one type of animation if I'm not mistaken, and Song and Dance use different animations.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 21, 2015, 12:36:53 pm
Most of the proposed changes there I can get behind, Gaignun. I don't care for the 8 PA and 12 MA on the female Bard/Dancer class, though. It overpowers a female scholar who is only coming in at 10 MA and isn't female Wizards only 12 MA as well? Dancerbard shouldn't have the highest MA stat on a female unit, IMO. That doesn't seem right.

Male Netherseers with 12 PA are also pretty damn strong considering their skill set. I'm not entirely sold on the netherseer skill set having the skills be PA*X, it's not hard to get units with 18-20 PA like a monk for example who would now be able to successfully cast spells coming in at 250+ damage as well as doing 250+ damage punch arts? Ehhh.. Maybe something like (PA+MA)/2*X? I'm not sure how great that would work but I just feel like it would be pretty easy to make the Netherseer class and skill set pretty OP.

Also, I forget, is UnF now UnFury or UnFaith? And is that based off of your fury/faith, or the targets fury/faith, or both?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 21, 2015, 01:09:38 pm
That's a good point. Also, will these skills be affected by magic attack up, or attack up? Because monks mostly rely on attack up/martial arts to get that damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 21, 2015, 01:14:23 pm
I would think if the formula involves PA then Attack Up. Elemental is am exception because the formula also relies on MA. So maybe Nether spells can get geomancy formula but more emphasis on PA. Unless of course it does nothing to help
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 21, 2015, 02:37:22 pm
I understand your concerns.  If possible, Nether Magic would be modified by Magic Attack UP.

Quote from: Mudvayne on August 21, 2015, 12:36:53 pm
Most of the proposed changes there I can get behind, Gaignun. I don't care for the 8 PA and 12 MA on the female Bard/Dancer class, though. It overpowers a female scholar who is only coming in at 10 MA and isn't female Wizards only 12 MA as well? Dancerbard shouldn't have the highest MA stat on a female unit, IMO. That doesn't seem right.


The female dancerbard (dancerbeard?) inherits the current bard's PA and MA.  The male dancerbard's PA and MA naturally result from FFT's stat growth differences between gender.  These high stats make up for the generally lousy primary skillset.

Quote from: Mudvayne on August 21, 2015, 12:36:53 pm
Male Netherseers with 12 PA are also pretty damn strong considering their skill set. I'm not entirely sold on the netherseer skill set having the skills be PA*X, it's not hard to get units with 18-20 PA like a monk for example who would now be able to successfully cast spells coming in at 250+ damage as well as doing 250+ damage punch arts?


The male netherseer has 12 PA to avoid being outclassed by male Monks (whose PA is reduced to 12 for the same purpose).  From here, the tradeoff becomes monks for higher HP and headbands, or netherseers for higher MP and better weapons. At 12 PA, netherseers are nearly equivalent to 12 MA wizards.

The big damage is definitely a concern, especially on tanky monks.  However, there are a few limitations that modulate the situation:


I guess what I'm trying to say is that what looks strong on paper isn't necessarily strong in practice.  Nevertheless, if the current damage output is indeed too high, then we could drop all constants by 1.  Come what may, I would prefer to keep the formula at PA*X rather than change it to the geomancy formula, since so few jobs have sufficient PA and MA to make the geomancy formula work.

Quote from: Mudvayne on August 21, 2015, 12:36:53 pm
Also, I forget, is UnF now UnFury or UnFaith? And is that based off of your fury/faith, or the targets fury/faith, or both?


Sorry for the confusion.  UnF means UnFaith.  I was using abbreviations of brave & faith for brevity.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 21, 2015, 03:10:46 pm
I was actually thinking something like PA-1*X would be great but I wasn't sure if anyone would like that suggestion. I think that looks decent on paper and in practice as it does limit the potential for huge damage output from magic and physical moves on these types of characters. I used monks in my example for a unit being able to do high damage with their punch art skillset and the netherseer skill set but monks are not the only unit that could benefit from the skillset. You can achieve almost as high PA on a squire or dancer or even male geomancers. Max PA stacked gear gives +9 PA (Lionheart, Genji Shield, Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer) which squire and geomancer can both use that particular set up and both have much better MP pools than monks with much easier access to MP boosting equips.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 21, 2015, 03:52:14 pm
Well regardless of how the changes go I'll make a promo video for the newest FFT Arena patch. Showing off the changes and everything else
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 22, 2015, 04:55:36 am
Quote from: Mudvayne on August 21, 2015, 03:10:46 pm
I was actually thinking something like PA-1*X would be great but I wasn't sure if anyone would like that suggestion. I think that looks decent on paper and in practice as it does limit the potential for huge damage output from magic and physical moves on these types of characters. I used monks in my example for a unit being able to do high damage with their punch art skillset and the netherseer skill set but monks are not the only unit that could benefit from the skillset. You can achieve almost as high PA on a squire or dancer or even male geomancers. Max PA stacked gear gives +9 PA (Lionheart, Genji Shield, Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer) which squire and geomancer can both use that particular set up and both have much better MP pools than monks with much easier access to MP boosting equips.


Oh, yeah, (PA-1)*X could work if implementable.  It's damage difference with PA*(X-1) is (PA-X) -- slightly higher in practice.

I wonder if there are any ideas for replacing breath spears with something more useful to Lancers.  Shintroy proposed a Lancet ability for Lancers several pages ago.  If that is not implementable, I wonder if an HP/MP blood spear is possible.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 22, 2015, 07:22:06 am
Maybe turn the spear into a blood spear and probably change the sprite color to red?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 22, 2015, 10:26:56 am
Lancer can get another Skillset. However it is either Jump or another Skillset. Both can't co-exist without Alma. And RAD. Honestly, that might be OP in Arena.

Suggestion, a FFTA like Skillset for Dragoons. Three or Four Elemental Breaths, Lancet as above, Dive(Range 2, Vert 6-8, Requires Spear, WP*SP or PA), Osmoses (Drain MP like Lancet), Throw Spear (Range 4, Vert 2, Requires Spear, As Dive)

JP 150-300 Same RSM
Just a Thought, you could add a buff or two as well. I can actually do all but changing formulas if we need help on this. (I have Patcher down.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on August 22, 2015, 12:19:05 pm
I wonder what sprites are gonna be used for the bard/dancer class ? Maybe just the dancer sprites could work for the female variant? I wonder if a new class name would be in order to reflect the merging of singing/dancing. Not sure what it would be though.

For lancer equip/abilities how about adding some modified versions of Reis abilities to the skillset? I think there's room for 4 more abilities. If needed to make more room I don't believe all the way up to vertical 8 jump is needed (I think up to vertical 6 would be suffecient). Units already have 3 jump + jump+1/2 or ignore height(movement)+ any jump stat increases from spears/hats/accessories.

(not sure how much of the following is code-able)
Lancet abilities:
fire/ice/lightning/holy breath--> stat damage could be ((pa+ma/2)*(wp+2) or ((pa+sp/2)*(wp+2) or ((pa+jump)/2*(wp+2) or ((sp+jump/2*(wp+2) or some other configuration, range would be current spear range (maybe able to damage units in both panels like dragon breaths).

Dragon Care: heals for x damage+damage caster for x/x amount, also cancel: sleep/charm/poison/stop, Range could also be like breath attack or current masamune range so it doesn't overshadow Heal/stigma magic.

Reis's other abilities are dragon tame, dragon powerup, dragon level up not sure atm how they could be changed/implemented or maybe not included.

Other abilities ideas: Maybe there's a way to add "special jumps" like one does AoE damage (I vote mimic titan for animation if implemented), another heals and/or removes statuses (like sleep/charm).

Spear ideas:
Spears/mythril/partisan/holy lance --> maybe leave the wpn element as is (non-elemental and holy ) but have it boost ice/fire/lightning respectively so breath procs do a little more damage (or just changes the formula calculation to something involving pa/sp/j). Another idea is for the breath proc to extend the reach another 1-2 panels worth of damage to potentially hit multpile units. Maybe a piercing support ability that allows the spears units w/in both of the normal 2 attack panels.

Also I wonder if it would be worth swapping the jump+x abilities to lancer and giving archer ignore height with the new changes coming. (although it might the way it is currently due to balancing issues).

How do we feel about a counter talk skill? It would be like counter magic but for talk skills could be 300 jp so 100 jp finger guard is still viable if trying to save jp. Could call it mock or rebuttal.

Have we've come to a consensus on stone gun* ? Some other suggestions on top of the ones I had earlier is it maybe could add petrify (or maybe 25% cast cloud's "finishing touch" technique) or chance to cast something like comet.

*I'm currently messing around with a test squad based around 2 stone gun users to see how powerful/effective it is currently. It consists of 2 stone mediators w/ counter or hp restore or damage split/attack up or unyielding or defend up/move-hp up/salty rage ( I could remove this for something else too but would lower damage alot) , 1 archer/pa user to remove stone and support damage/breaks, 1 support chemist or mime.  ..............berskerk was rough my archer/chemist basically left them to die on one playthrough {>.<}. Also even though I have stigma magic on the archer/pa on a lot of the maps it's still using up both the archer and chemists turns to undo the stone status. *
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 22, 2015, 03:03:14 pm
Herobal- Jump Anything can't be used in concert with another type of abilities.(Anything not Jump.). Not without severe modding. The Game has several hard coded skillsets.

Item/Throw/Katana/Jump/Charge/Math/Mime. If you change these their are rules to doing so. Charge and Math can just be swapped to default and use other abilities. (The game supports 264 unique, changeable abilities, before Monster Abilities. So this isn't restrictive.)

Anything that accesses Inventory, must be overridden by ASMs. Item, Throw, Katana. Those can be made into normal skillsets but then they lose the acesss to inventory items. (Katana doesn't even roughly play by the normal rules, it's plain dumb, and hard to work with.)

Charge, Jump and Math - You can modify their JP, and Learn Rates(Not applicable in Arena.) Their formulas must be ASM'd from there. This is always harder then it sounds.

Mime isn't even touchable. Don't bother, as I believe the Damned is the only one who cared enough and we haven't seen him in a bit. Personally I never liked the classes thought it should have died long ago. Good for the AI in Story Patchs(for reasons to long to explain.)

Also "Bard" and "Dancer" are hard coded. In the sense that they can do anything, but their classes are gender restricted. You must have 1 Male, 1 Female and 1 Mime class Everything else is what you can mod.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 22, 2015, 03:24:02 pm
Ah, so a female Bard and a male Dancer cannot be done?

For the sake of argument, would it be possible to swap Song with Time Magic and have both male and female Time Mages with Sing, or would Time Mages then become gender restricted?

Second, are the Bard and Dancer classes -- or perhaps their location in memory -- gender-restricted even if their skillsets are swapped to default?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 22, 2015, 03:38:35 pm
Blood Spear sounds cool! I'm going to toss out a few more ideas, meant to encourage Lancers using melee attacks (though I suppose this happens often enough given you aren't guaranteed to land a Jump every turn):

Spear with 50% Don't Move proc
Spear with 50% Power Ruin proc
Spear with 33% Undead proc
Spear with 100% Consecration proc
Spear with 50% cast Life Drain proc (redundant with Blood Spear, but this encourages high Fa Lancers, possibly even 40/70!)
Spear with 50% cast Stop (someone else had this idea before)
Spear with 50% Blade Beam proc or 50% cast Balance proc
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on August 22, 2015, 03:39:20 pm
so it sounds like "special jumps" is out of the question.

But would something like.....
Jump/Lancet/Dragon skillset:
horizontal jump+1
...
horizontal jump+6
vertical jump+1
....
Vertical jump+6
Lancet/Dragon ability
Lancet/Dragon ability
Lancet/Dragon ability
etc.

work ? or would you have to get rid of the jumps entirely.

For Bards/Dancers it sounds like the gender thing is the issue not the skillset.
because i think a work around for the sing/dance thing would be set skillset to default. to create abilities similar to Lores but friendly/enemy units only respectively. If skillset is the issue.

So to simplify maybe bards get both sing/dance but can only be male and netherseers would only able to be female.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 22, 2015, 06:52:08 pm
@ Gaignun. Think of each individual part p the class as mutable. Skillset can be assigned anywhere. Stats can be changed at will, most parts of abilities can be ripped up, replaced and altered.

Names are just names. So a Male only class could have Ninja stats, Yin Yang as it's Skillset and Innate Two Hands. (We can give a class up to four RSM Innates but Reactions override an assigned reaction.) We could make so hell-bent unworldly complicated classes. I'll stress this is a BAD idea to do so. Changing and balancing Lancer alone to EVeRYTHING else is a four to six month job.

As a note, before we change one ability or item. Anyone play LoL or Heros of the Storm? Anyone get how hard it is to balance champs. They changed BF Sword items a while back and totally derailed the known meta. Now I am all for doing some alterations, so long as FFTMaster/whomever is in charge of the Arena is ok with our tinkering, but we do need to agree on a few things.

1st. A "base version" to come back to that all changes are compared against.
2nd. Not everyone produces and publishes changes. Just a single team of people. I know Barren and CT5 have the most experiance(or close to it.) I would differ to the vets before clamouring for change and telling other people to provide it.
3rd. From the sound of it Barren is working on changes that we have mentioned, lets give him a week or two show us what he has gathered.
4th. Compile everyone's thoughts. Get some polls on Quickening going, buffing Fairy, ect. Lets see what those changes do and then, revote them if we get some polarizing data.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 22, 2015, 07:50:39 pm
Well I did propose a few ideas already. Some did get rejected. But what I was going to show off was a video of the recent changes already made so that way people can get hyped up for the new FFT Arena.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 22, 2015, 08:47:39 pm
Also, I did test Shieldrender.

Still does 244 damage(as a start) with neutral compat and Warpath...

On a Geomancer with nothing but PA boosting equips, Two Hands, and Warpath.

That basically means 32 effective PA, and it was STILL not as good as a Two Sworded Platinum Sword with a little less PA, which hit twice guaranteed.



Oh and as a bit of amusement the proc also works with Counter.

I still stand by my suggestion of making it one-hand only but more WP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 22, 2015, 09:09:08 pm
If there to actually make changes with FFT Arena like the ones we discussed I would work on the patch for it to be used. Like actually edit the patch with updates and such. Alas we wait for FFMaster to proceed
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 22, 2015, 10:02:02 pm
IF, I am not`mistaken, we have the patcher file. I have enough knowledge to poke around and find what's what. Might be a month or two though before I get anywhere.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Jumza on August 22, 2015, 10:12:33 pm
FFTPatcher doesn't tell you about asm's and such that are used. You'd have to have all the info before not messing something up.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on August 22, 2015, 11:43:54 pm
Is there anyone else out there who even knows how to do the kind of updates FFMaster does?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 23, 2015, 12:10:40 am
@ Jumza. I'm very aware ;). Like I said a month or two of poking. We'd be really limited. Really really limited. Like Patch only limited and only in the Ability and Item files. (And maybe jobs.) That we can, mostly, safety modify, but then we'd have to overhaul the Memcard generator.

Now that is all with exhaustive testing. Or FFTMaster coming back with a Master Changelog. Something I wouldn't have kept in his position.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 27, 2015, 07:58:42 am
I know I said this in the past but I don't like shuriken's animation and the way it functions. Shurikens goes through walls and can hit 4 times. While I understand its a Final Fantasy game but its just a bit unrealistic for me. I do like the throw with shuriken from vanilla. I am fine with the poison proc though.

It should (at least in my opinion) be a single throw attack with a damage formula of SP*SP with the range of your movement. Of course not boosted by attack up because that would be asking for much but still. At least ninjas with lets say hidden knife and defense up can still be a bit beefy while landing those concentrated shuriken throws. I wouldn't think it'd be that broken considering that speed isn't that easy to use without dying too quickly. Thieves with throw might be an exception. Plus I think it can open up a good offensive option for anti-sandbag purposes aside from gunshots and elemental.

Of course that's only my opinion on it.

As far as Lancer skillset, I guess if we opt to go for something different we can try to borrow skills from the dragoon class in FFTA and see if we can make anything out of it.

And I know I'm not the only one thinking it but who wants to see monsters actually being used? I think a monster mash can be fun! Of course that's wishful thinking (unless it can happen and all of our dreams will indeed come true)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 27, 2015, 11:32:41 am
@Momsters

Monsters also allow for up to 16 sprites, on the battlefield with up to twelve different monster classes. Sprite limits on monsters is all bout the palettes, so we can really make use of the medium and large maps. If someone is willing to work stats, I'm willing to take a crack at abilities. I don't do massive tweaks on the class page of Patcher.

With the way monsters only have four abilities and can't mix and match, larger teams (6 or 8) will really allow variety. I'd have to do some math/research on Arena, and how many of the customizable ability spaces it uses. (And some abilities like the Ruins and Steals can be transplanted directly to Monsters with no changes required.)

Funny that you mentioned this Barren as I just saw that section of the Master Guide for the first time yesterday. (I am, blind, at times.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 27, 2015, 11:57:45 am
Monsters would be awesome. I'm not sure what the plan is for them considering how strong you want them to be stat wise. We all know monsters suck in vanilla, but in certain patches, monsters have really been beefed up. Like, level 35 monsters with 400+ HP totals, depending on the class. Since they are limited to only 3/4 moves, I don't really see a problem with having some beefy monsters added to Arena for variety sake. It would add a lot more depth to strategy, IMO. I think limiting our 4 man team to maybe 2 monsters would be fine.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Jumza on August 27, 2015, 12:04:31 pm
Quote from: gatebuster202 on August 27, 2015, 11:32:41 am
@Momsters

Monsters also allow for up to 16 sprites, on the battlefield with up to twelve different monster classes. Sprite limits on monsters is all bout the palettes, so we can really make use of the medium and large maps. If someone is willing to work stats, I'm willing to take a crack at abilities. I don't do massive tweaks on the class page of Patcher.

With the way monsters only have four abilities and can't mix and match, larger teams (6 or 8) will really allow variety. I'd have to do some math/research on Arena, and how many of the customizable ability spaces it uses. (And some abilities like the Ruins and Steals can be transplanted directly to Monsters with no changes required.)


Teams will actually have to stay the same size... The sprite limit is still 9, an odd number meaning the highest number of unique units on each team can only be 4. Monster sprites vs human sprites does not change that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 27, 2015, 12:16:56 pm
Shuriken
Personally, I don't think shuriken is too broken as it is right now. But hey, if we're giving Samurai longbows and spears to be historically accurate, might as well make ninjas obey the laws of physics. I wouldn't mind if it stayed the same though, although maybe the range could be reduced some.

A SP*SP formula would be interesting to see, given that thieves can reach 14-15 speed with speed gear and this multiplies to about 196-225 damage without zodiac compatability. And also, making the range based on move would be weird because the AI can do some stupid things like rush in and get killed if they have too much speed and move. Unless that is the balancing factor in all of this, if that's the case then go right ahead.

Lancers/Jump
As for lancers possibly getting a new skill set, the FFTA dragoon idea sounds pretty cool. I'm sad to say, however, that I have never actually played FFTA (ok not really sad, I'd take Ramza over Marche any day, and law system=bleh) but I have played A2.

Also, speaking of lancers, would it be possible to create a makeshift jump ability that is instant but has the same animations/effect as the current jump? It could just be one skill and would work in a default skill set. It sounds like a plausible idea.

Monsters
Monsters would be really cool! Obviously we would need to balance their skills or introduce some new stuff, but I would definitely like to see that sometime. Are we thinking monster skill innate, so the monster always has its fourth skill? Also it would give monster talk some use as well, since it currently is completely useless.

I'm interested in maybe helping to code/test stuff or at least see the changes by the way. Maybe not coding right now because I only just started with the ASM stuff, having done both tutorials, but I think it could be a very good learning experience. I am getting ready to start a new semester at college though so it might be tight. Let me know if I can do something, even if it's just testing.

Also, Momsters? lol.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 27, 2015, 12:26:05 pm
I usually just test myself and this time around (like other players) I'll report anything that I see that is wrong in terms of glitches or bugs.

Monsters will have to be rebalanced to make them reliable to use. I would have to pull up some monster stats and go from there. Or if anyone else is up for the job as what would monster stats would look like if there were level 35.

After looking through philsov's report on the FFT human/monster stats this is what I discovered:

Male Squire - Level 35 HP 115-122, MP 32-35, PA 7, MA 5, SP 8
Female Squire - Level 35 HP 107-115, MP 35-37, PA 5, MA 6, SP 8
Male Chemist - Level 35 HP 92-98, MP 31-33, PA 5, MA 5, SP 8
Female Chemist - Level 35 HP 80-86, MP 33-36, PA 4, MA 6, SP 8
Male Knight/Paladin - Level 35 HP 147-157, MP 35-37, PA 10, MA 5, SP 8
Female Knight/Paladin - Level 35 HP 137-147, MP 37-40, PA 8, MA 6, SP 8
Male Archer - Level 35 HP 115-122, MP 27-29, PA 9, MA 5, SP 8
Female Archer - Level 35 HP 107-115, MP 29-31, PA 7, MA 6, SP 8
Male Monk - Level 35 HP 178-190, MP 38-41, PA 10, MA 5, SP 8
Female Monk - Level 35 HP 166-178, MP 41-43, PA 8, MA 6, SP 8
Male Priest - Level 35 HP 98-104, MP 68-73, PA 7, MA 7, SP 8
Female Priest - Level 35 HP 91-98, MP 73-78, PA 6, MA 9, SP 8
Male Wizard - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 73-79, PA 4, MA 10, SP 8
Female Wizard - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 79-84, PA 3, MA 12, SP 8
Male Time Mage - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 68-73, PA 3, MA 8, SP 8
Female Time Mage - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 73-78, PA 3, MA 10, SP 8
Male Summoner - Level 35 HP 72-76, MP 83-89, PA 3, MA 8, SP 7
Female Summoner - Level 35 HP 67-72, MP 89-95, PA 2, MA 10, SP 7
Male Thief - Level 35 HP 103-110, MP 21-22, PA 8, MA 3, SP 9
Female Thief - Level 35 HP 96-103, MP 22-24, PA 6, MA 5, SP 9
Male Mediator - Level 35 HP 92-98, MP 27-29, PA 6, MA 5, SP 8
Female Mediator - Level 35 HP 85-92, MP 29-31, PA 4, MA 6, SP 8
Male Oracle - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 63-67, PA 3, MA 7, SP 8
Female Oracle - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 67-72, PA 3, MA 10, SP 8
Male Geomancer - Level 35 HP 135-144, MP 50-54, PA 9, MA 7, SP 8
Female Geomancer - Level 35 HP 126-135, MP 54-58, PA 7, MA 8, SP 8
Male Lancer - Level 35 HP 147-157, MP 21-23, PA 10, MA 3, SP 8
Female Lancer - Level 35 HP 137-147, MP 23-25, PA 8, MA 4, SP 8
Male Samurai - Level 35 HP 81-86, MP 34-36, PA 11, MA 6, SP 8
Female Samurai - Level 35 HP 75-81, MP 36-39, PA 8, MA 7, SP 8
Male Ninja - Level 35 HP 75-80, MP 24-25, PA 10, MA 5, SP 10
Female Ninja - Level 35 HP 70-75, MP 25-27, PA 8, MA 6, SP 10
Male Mime - Level 35 HP 246-262, MP 14-15, PA 11, MA 8, SP 9
Female Mime - Level 35 HP 229-246, MP 15-16, PA 9, MA 10, SP 9
Ahriman - Level 35 HP 153-166, MP 11-17, PA 12-15, MA 24-29, SP 6
Behemoth - Level 35 HP 326-354, MP 15-22, PA 12-15, MA 27-33, SP 8
Black Chocobo - Level 35 HP 147-159, MP 18-28, PA 13-16, MA 27-33, SP 6
Black Goblin - Level 35 HP 176-191, MP 4-6, PA 9-11, MA 22-27, SP 7
Blue Dragon - Level 35 HP 276-300, MP 13-20, PA 12-14, MA 27-33, SP 8
Bomb - Level 35 HP 156-169, MP 2-3, PA 9-11, MA 24-29, SP 7
Bone Snatch - Level 35 HP 209-227, MP 5-7, PA 11-13, MA 22-27, SP 7
Bull Demon - Level 35 HP 276-300, MP 1-1, PA 11-13, MA 26-31, SP 7
Cocatoris - Level 35 HP 190-201, MP 1-1, PA 14-16, MA 26-31, SP 9
Cuar - Level 35 HP 186-202, MP 7-11, PA 10-12, MA 27-33, SP 9
Dark Behemoth - Level 35 HP 375-407, MP 20-30, PA 19-23, MA 27-33, SP 8
Dragon - Level 35 HP 272-296, MP 9-14, PA 12-15, MA 26-31, SP 8
Explosive - Level 35 HP 227-247, MP 5-7, PA 10-12, MA 25-30, SP 6
Flotiball - Level 35 HP 168-178, MP 13-15, PA 8-9, MA 23-28, SP 7
Ghoul - Level 35 HP 152-165, MP 15-23, PA 8-9, MA 27-33, SP 7
Gobbledeguck - Level 35 HP 200-218, MP 9-14, PA 10-12, MA 24-28, SP 8
Goblin - Level 35 HP 214-233, MP 5-7, PA 9-10, MA 22-26, SP 7
Great Morbol - Level 35 HP 302-328, MP 1-1, PA 9-10, MA 11-13, SP 6
Grenade - Level 35 HP 159-173, MP 3-5, PA 7-9, MA 24-29, SP 7
Gust - Level 35 HP 150-163, MP 12-18, PA 8-10, MA 27-33, SP 7
Holy Dragon - Level 35 HP 266-289, MP 14-21, PA 13-16, MA 32-38, SP 9
Hydra - Level 35 HP 332-360, MP 20-30, PA 13-16, MA 10-12, SP 9
Hyudra - Level 35 HP 266-288, MP 6-9, PA 12-14, MA 9-11, SP 8
Juravis - Level 35 HP 165-179, MP 5-7, PA 9-11, MA 22-26, SP 7
King Behemoth - Level 35 HP 349-379, MP 17-26, PA 14-17, MA 26-31, SP 8
Living Bone - Level 35 HP 235-255, MP 3-5, PA 11-13, MA 23-27, SP 7
Mindflare - Level 35 HP 169-183, MP 20-30, PA 11-14, MA 24-28, SP 7
Minitaurus - Level 35 HP 328-356, MP 1-1, PA 14-16, MA 26-31, SP 7
Morbol - Level 35 HP 292-317, MP 1-2, PA 9-11, MA 10-12, SP 6
Ochu - Level 35 HP 242-263, MP 1-2, PA 10-12, MA 12-14, SP 6
Pisco Demon - Level 35 HP 198-215, MP 15-22, PA 8-9, MA 25-30, SP 7
Plague - Level 35 HP 157-171, MP 17-26, PA 11-13, MA 31-37, SP 7
Porky - Level 35 HP 127-138, MP 1-1, PA 7-8, MA 28-34, SP 9
Red Chocobo - Level 35 HP 248-269, MP 11-16, PA 12-14, MA 25-31, SP 9
Red Dragon - Level 35 HP 321-349, MP 14-21, PA 13-16, MA 29-35, SP 9
Red Panther - Level 35 HP 237-258, MP 6-9, PA 9-10, MA 23-28, SP 8
Revenant - Level 35 HP 170-185, MP 8-12, PA 8-10, MA 28-34, SP 8
Sacred - Level 35 HP 309-336, MP 1-1, PA 16-19, MA 26-31, SP 8
Skeleton - Level 35 HP 268-291, MP 6-9, PA 9-11, MA 22-26, SP 8
Squidlarkin - Level 35 HP 211-229, MP 14-21, PA 9-11, MA 25-30, SP 7
Steel Giant - Level 35 HP 313-340, MP 1-1, PA 14-17, MA 1-1, SP 7
Steel Hawk - Level 35 HP 156-169, MP 7-11, PA 9-11, MA 23-28, SP 9
Taiju - Level 35 HP 321-349, MP 18-28, PA 8-10, MA 25-31, SP 6
Tiamat - Level 35 HP 372-404, MP 11-16, PA 17-20, MA 12-15, SP 9
Trent - Level 35 HP 238-259, MP 22-33, PA 8-9, MA 24-29, SP 6
Uribo - Level 35 HP 106-115, MP 1-1, PA 6-7, MA 28-34, SP 9
Vampire - Level 35 HP 202-220, MP 8-13, PA 12-14, MA 22-26, SP 9
Wildbow - Level 35 HP 118-128, MP 1-1, PA 14-17, MA 28-34, SP 9
Woodman - Level 35 HP 275-299, MP 20-30, PA 9-11, MA 26-31, SP 6
Yellow Chocobo - Level 35 HP 180-196, MP 12-18, PA 9-11, MA 24-29, SP 8


I didn't include the bards, dancers and calculators because their stats is terrible and I do like how our current bards, dancers and scholars are (at least until next patch). So with all of these stats collected I was thinking of rebalancing some of the classes. I know we already discussed some beforehand but I was thinking maybe we can borrow this data and tweak them. I do think not all of the of the human stats needs to be touched though, some are just fine as they are. Monsters obviously will need a buff in speed and to some degree HP. I don't remember all of their skills off the top of my head but I do know quite a few that are obvious i.e. uribo, porky and wildbow has nose breath which inflicts charm instantly. So what should we do with these stats do you think?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 27, 2015, 02:09:43 pm
Quote from: Jumza on August 27, 2015, 12:04:31 pm
Teams will actually have to stay the same size... The sprite limit is still 9, an odd number meaning the highest number of unique units on each team can only be 4. Monster sprites vs human sprites does not change that.


Jumza, can we limit it to 4 monster families a side? Because I know you can get away with a sixteen man brawl as long as you don't break (9) or 8 unique sprites. I was thinking that, we'd have some changes to team building once we added monsters. The classic 4v4 need not be altered, but one Monster "family" per side would allow an additional number of combatants. Also we could do a monster specific tourney. Where you build a four man human team and each side gets one chocobo. Or Goblin. Ectra. That fills the ninth slot and we get to see bigger tourneys. Of course we'll still have our standard but monsters opens up lots of possibilities.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 27, 2015, 05:21:58 pm

If you load up a save file that has other areas unlocked besides Deep Dungeon with Arena and enter a random battle, you will see FFMaster has put some thought on how monsters could be. I've gathered what was in the 138d Patcher since I can't open 139 for some reason. I don't know what this dates from since some of them seem OP but we could go from there for ideas.



Lots of monster skills can be countered with Counter Magic and Counter Flood.


Choco Meteor: +125% damage
Choco Cure: +33% healing
Goblin Punch: 3 range
Turn Punch: 2 AoE, Evadeable
Eye Gouge: Cancels Performing
Mutilate: ???
Small Bomb: 4 range, 2 AoE 3 Vertical, Y increased to 7, Fire elemental (Fire 4 animation)
Flame Attack: +33% damage
Spark: +50% damage
Cat Kick: Cancels Charging - Performing (0 damage since it uses WP-based formula)
Blaster: Hit rate -10%
Poison Nail: 3 Range
Blood Suck: No longer damages, just MA+40% to inflict Blood Suck
Black Ink: Cancels Performing
Mind Blast: Hit rate +5%, Evadeable
Level Blast: Set CT00, 3 Range 3 Vertical (threshold)
Thunder/Aqua/Ice Soul: Damage multiplied by 5
Wind Soul: Damage multiplied by 3.33
Drain Touch: Absorb 50% MP, Faith-based hit rate (but unlikely to miss since it is 200% hit rate)
Grease Touch: Adds Stop, Hit rate -15%
Look of Devil: Hit rate +5%
Circle: Range decreased to 3, Hit rate -25%, Evadeable, -5 MA
Shine Lover: Adds Regen and Haste, self-target only, can be silenced (this one is kind of a mess, I'm not sure what he was trying to make here)
Feather bomb: Damage +100%
Beaking: Hit rate -15%, -5 PA
Straight Dash: 2 Vertical
Nose Bracelet: 2 Vertical, Hit rate +215% (basically a guaranteed Charm)
Leaf Dance: 2 AoE 3 Vertical
Protect Spirit: Hit rate +25%, 2 AoE 3 Vertical, Hits Caster
Calm Spirit: Same as above
Life Spirit: Cancels Dead, 2 AoE Vertical 3, restores 20% HP
Magic Spirit: HealHP PA*10, HealMP PA*5, 2 AoE 3 Vertical (basically a stronger Chakra)
Mimic Titan: Damage +66%, Vertical 2
Blow Fire: Damage +50%
Magic Lick: Cancels everything. 1 Vertical
Goo: Adds Don't Act, Hit_(MA+50%)
Bad Breath: 1 Vertical, only adds Oil or Poison
Moldball Virus: Hit rate +25%
Hurricane: Also Dark elemental
Ulmaguest: 6 CT, Hit_(MA+80%), Evadeable
Tail Swing: Y increased to 20 (+33%)
Cold Breath: Y = 14
Flame Breath: Y = 15 (x3 damage from vanilla)
Thunder Breath: Y = 13
Triple Attack: Vertical 2 (Damage becomes 0 due to new WP based formula unless they can equip weapons)
Triple Bracelet: Dark elemental
Triple Thunder: 1 Vertical, Y = 4
Triple Flame: 1 Vertical, Y = 8
Dark Whisper: 1 Vertical
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 27, 2015, 05:26:20 pm
WKW, that's awesome. Thank you very much. I'll pour over this and then see just how many abilities we have to work with. From there, I'll see about putting together a basic design doc, and then actually doing the changes on paper, and doing math with anyone willing to work on the stats, to create a more balanced playset. The question should be then, balance monsters to monsters, or monsters to EVERYTHING?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 27, 2015, 05:43:13 pm
Quote from: gatebuster202 on August 27, 2015, 05:26:20 pm
WKW, that's awesome. Thank you very much. I'll pour over this and then see just how many abilities we have to work with. From there, I'll see about putting together a basic design doc, and then actually doing the changes on paper, and doing math with anyone willing to work on the stats, to create a more balanced playset. The question should be then, balance monsters to monsters, or monsters to EVERYTHING?


I think at least some of this came from the old 1.3 patch so depending on the ability, it may be balanced to somewhat favor monsters at this time (possibly).

However, I think that they should be balanced to everything. Perhaps one way to simplify and streamline the process is to have one tier instead of three for monsters (although I'm not 100% for keeping it this way but it would be a decent way to introduce monsters at least without overwhelming the designer).

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 27, 2015, 05:44:04 pm
Me and Reks were talking about the mage masher dagger. No one uses it because there's a lot of silence protection going on. Maybe we should ditch the mage masher and call it something else?

I was thinking the mage masher to gladius and it can trigger slow. I'm thinking 50% chance or 33%. Of course in order to do that we should remove the slow proc chance from the heaven's cloud katana. Maybe give that katana a increase in weapon power
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 27, 2015, 05:49:18 pm
Quote from: Barren on August 27, 2015, 05:44:04 pm
Me and Reks were talking about the mage masher dagger. No one uses it because there's a lot of silence protection going on. Maybe we should ditch the mage masher and call it something else?

I was thinking the mage masher to gladius and it can trigger slow. I'm thinking 50% chance or 33%. Of course in order to do that we should remove the slow proc chance from the heaven's cloud katana. Maybe give that katana a increase in weapon power


Ohhhhh it would become pretty deadly with 2S and repel knife proc. I'm in :D
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 27, 2015, 06:51:15 pm
So, in talks with Barren I got the idea to change a few of the Katana procs to their respective Draw Out.

100% sounds good, but if that's too powerful then at least 50% is still decent.

Katanas would thus become more appealing to some.

Attacking would get extra damage from a slash, but be limited to a single target.

Draw Out would be as useful as it is already with AoE. No extra attack damage, though.




It'd be up to you guys to decide which gets their respective Draw Out, though.

I got the idea from Barren talking about Mage Masher losing Bizen Boat, and that Kiku technically HAS that already albeit in the form of Quake over itself.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 28, 2015, 04:22:14 am
I am cool with a new Shuriken skill.  However, bear in mind that damage based on SP scales superlinearly: SP increases both damage and frequency.  What's more, SP*SP would scale faster than a second-order polynomial.  No other skill in FFTA scales nearly this fast. Accordingly, balance will require us to make the skill incredibly weak at low SP values, like Punch Art at low PA before its formula became linear.

In consideration of this, I would recommend a different formula, like WP*X.  I wonder if it is possible to make damage formula immutable so that damage is not affected by Protect, Attack UP, and Defense UP.  No skill other than Cover Fire (to an extent) ignores such modifiers, so it could fulfill a unique role.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 28, 2015, 08:11:14 am
Or maybe we can use a formula that would be like (SP-1)(SP) or maybe something along the lines of ((SP+8)/2*SP)

To give you a quick example of what I am proposing, if we did the (SP-1)(SP)

Ninja with its innate 9 Speed, that would mean (9-1)(9) = 72 at neutral compatibility.
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 81/63 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 90/54 damage respectively

That isn't too bad considering that shuriken is instant throw single damage and should obey the laws of physics by not going through walls :P

Now lets say if we max out a unit with 15 speed. Thief is probably best for it.

Thief with its innate 15 Speed, that would mean (15-1)(15) = 210 at neutral compatibility.
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 236/184 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 262/158 damage respectively

Now that is insane damage but if you go the 15 speed route you risk getting KO'd almost immediately due to the low HP, unless you have a haste/slow on your side. Of course if you factor in defense UP and protect then the damage despite the speed should be significantly lower. If the 15 speed unit has only 4 move then its range would only be 4. Just like in vanilla. The poison proc can still stay because at least it can sill have its lasting effect.

Now if we did the other formula I proposed, it would look like this:

Ninja with its innate 9 speed. ((9+8)/2*9) = 77 damage at neutral compatibility
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 87/67 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 96/58 damage respectively

Now thief with maxed out 15 speed. ((15+8)/2*15) = 173 damage at neutral compatibility
Good/Bad compatibility would equal to 194/152 damage respectively
Best/Worst compatibility would equal to 216/130 damage respectively

Now that is a little lower in case anyone feels the first formula is a bit too powerful and I don't mind if anyone wants to tweak these formulas to get them to work. I just figured I can borrow other damage calculations and let speed be a factor this time other than PA or MA
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 28, 2015, 11:04:03 am
That's still superlinear.  Raw damage is increasing by a factor of 2.92 (formula 1) and 2.25 (formula 2) for a SP increase of 1.67.  Upon factoring in turn frequency, total damage output is increasing by factors of 4.86 and 3.75, respectively.

210 damage at 15 SP (formula 1) is really good.  You'll be dealing nearly 420 damage for every one of an 8 SP unit's turn.  On the other hand, 77 damage at 9 SP (formula 2) is really bad.  This is what I mean by balancing superlinear formulas: Either the maximum damage is too good, or the minimum damage is too bad.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 28, 2015, 11:28:45 am
What formula would you suggest then? I remember back in the day the formula was SP*WP. Maybe we outta bring it back? Or perhaps add PA to one of the speed calculations? I know I'm no expert at balancing but at least I'm trying
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on August 28, 2015, 12:20:39 pm
Is it possible for a weapon to increase crit % as a buff?

I think that would be cool to add to maybe a katana or something. 25% increased chance of a critical strike? I'm not sure what the crit chance is currently (like 1-2%?) but it's pretty low, I think being able to increase it could be an attractive option to some people. I know I would use it, at least.

I was thinking maybe in combination with the Berserk on Chiri and have it lose +1 speed instead. Add Initial: Berserk and 25% increased chance of critical melee strike sounds good. Maybe a bit too strong though now that I think of it, so maybe something like -1 speed may balance it out. This is just off the top of my head, no real thought has really been put into it besides the initial idea of having weapons add to your critical strike %.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on August 28, 2015, 01:39:59 pm
Quote from: Barren on August 28, 2015, 11:28:45 am
What formula would you suggest then? I remember back in the day the formula was SP*WP. Maybe we outta bring it back? Or perhaps add PA to one of the speed calculations? I know I'm no expert at balancing but at least I'm trying


I know. I'm just trying to help.  If you really want SP in the formula, then SP*WP is a good upper limit.  We just gotta avoid those SP*SP products. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 28, 2015, 01:53:34 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on August 28, 2015, 01:39:59 pm
I know. I'm just trying to help.  If you really want SP in the formula, then SP*WP is a good upper limit.  We just gotta avoid those SP*SP products. 


Maybe add a /2, or a /3 in there?

SP*WP would be abusable because Speed stacking and equipping, say, the Chaos Blade.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 28, 2015, 02:06:08 pm
I know you're trying to help Gaignun. I appreciate your honest opinion. It's just hard sometimes to come up with something that can make everyone happy. So no worries there
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 28, 2015, 02:34:55 pm

Quote from: Mudvayne on August 28, 2015, 12:20:39 pm
Is it possible for a weapon to increase crit % as a buff?


I think that would be cool to add to maybe a katana or something. 25% increased chance of a critical strike? I'm not sure what the crit chance is currently (like 1-2%?) but it's pretty low, I think being able to increase it could be an attractive option to some people. I know I would use it, at least.



It's possible with secondadvent's Crit Rate ASM (it's in one of Raven's workbooks) to have a different crit rate on any individual weapon or even monster. There is also an extra ASM to have a helm/armor/accessory that can double the crit rate. It would definitely add more variety.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 28, 2015, 03:11:04 pm
Quote from: Reks on August 28, 2015, 01:53:34 pm
Maybe add a /2, or a /3 in there?

SP*WP would be abusable because Speed stacking and equipping, say, the Chaos Blade.


With SP*WP, the upper limit would be (I think) 238 with AUP (Thief with AUP, Tactician's Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes), or 221 if this skill is made unmodifiable by AUP (Thief with Equip Heavy Blade, Chaos Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes). Strong, but if you have it keep the 10 MP cost and maybe even reduce its range to 5, then to use it over the course of the match, the unit would have to sacrifice Speed for MP, which also lowers its damage output.

SP*WP seems reasonable to me - we already have a skill with that formula (Hawk's Eye), and no one's had complaints about that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on August 28, 2015, 05:01:11 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on August 28, 2015, 03:11:04 pm
With SP*WP, the upper limit would be (I think) 238 with AUP (Thief with AUP, Tactician's Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes), or 221 if this skill is made unmodifiable by AUP (Thief with Equip Heavy Blade, Chaos Blade/Thief Hat/Secret Clothes/Sprint Shoes). Strong, but if you have it keep the 10 MP cost and maybe even reduce its range to 5, then to use it over the course of the match, the unit would have to sacrifice Speed for MP, which also lowers its damage output.

SP*WP seems reasonable to me - we already have a skill with that formula (Hawk's Eye), and no one's had complaints about that.


Except Hawk's Eye is limited to the weapon's reach, and Shuriken has a reach of 5.

It's understandable if Shuriken loses it's 4-hit capabilities and I could get behind the formula being SP*WP, definitely

I'm just not sure if that was still the intention or not, because it seemed kinda powerful if it'll keep the multi-hitting capability.



And I hate to bump up my own suggestion, but nobody said anything about it. What do people think about some Katanas earning their respective Draw Out abilities as a proc?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 28, 2015, 05:26:25 pm
Quote from: Reks on August 28, 2015, 05:01:11 pm
Except Hawk's Eye is limited to the weapon's reach, and Shuriken has a reach of 5.

It's understandable if Shuriken loses it's 4-hit capabilities and I could get behind the formula being SP*WP, definitely

I'm just not sure if that was still the intention or not, because it seemed kinda powerful if it'll keep the multi-hitting capability.



And I hate to bump up my own suggestion, but nobody said anything about it. What do people think about some Katanas earning their respective Draw Out abilities as a proc?


Good point about shuriken, that's why I suggested it should go down in range a little, or if we do what Barren suggested and make it not go through obstacles. And it will probably have to loose the multi hits if we use SP*WP, which I would be fine with as well.

And I think katanas could really be good with their respective draw out procs. If we do that, katanas may not even need a WP boost. The only problem I see is if we were to have masamune proc itself which would be really funny but would be impractical. Murasame might also be iffy due to it already healing HP on hit as well. But yeah, the offensive katanas would definitely be good with this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on August 28, 2015, 08:05:56 pm
The thing that bothers me with katanas is that Paladins have no reason to use them. Cross users would not benefit from DO procs, not to mention having low MA if they opt for regular attacks instead. It's not a bad idea for the Samurai itself, some katanas could use it and I wouldn't mind the change. If anything could benefit Paladins, maybe the elemental katanas could absorb their own element? Or we could bring something new to the table and have a HP or MP boosting katana for tanks or an alternative to Cross Helmet. I'd say Bizen Boat gets MP boost and Muramasa gets +HP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on August 28, 2015, 08:22:22 pm
If we are talking Katana changes, are we also talking about Draw Out alterations? Murasama needs to lose a point or two on it's multiplier. (Reasoning): It is an instant, 2x3 heal at most of Cure 2-3's rate. That's the best bang for your buck on pure healing. It lacks a MP cost and it's only balancing factor was breaking. (Which was never really a balancing issue.) It doesn't smart target, but it does aid against undead, so no changes there. Also it'd be nice if we change the formula to (MA+PA/2) * 9 or 10. Again giving utility to the build. (This may not be so realistic)

Asura should probably see a single point increase. (10) That formula is the only PA one, and gives more utility to the PA based classes who would benefit from the Draw Out Skill set.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on August 29, 2015, 09:06:52 am
Regardless of what changes are actually made, it will definitely be different. I'm sure that Gaignun will update the team design tool. The mem card generator hopefully can be updated too
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on August 31, 2015, 05:22:38 pm
Just had this idea for Bizen Boat - what if it did a flat 80-100 MP damage?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on August 31, 2015, 05:54:05 pm
I do agree that bizen boat needs a nerf, but maybe not that much. I was thinking more along the lines of an AOE modification.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on September 04, 2015, 12:52:30 pm
I think a flat 100 mp damage is fair, maybe even slightly strong. 75 seems a better number but may not be effective enough to really be relevant, it's a tough call. I agree something needs to happen though, as is it's entirely too strong and completely shuts down mages.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 04, 2015, 01:56:16 pm
How about we lower the bizen boat formula to MA*7?

It would be on the same par as an attack up asura or magic attack up koutetsu. Just doesn't get the elemental boost
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 04, 2015, 03:16:48 pm
If Bizen Boat does flat damage, that'd fix the Mage Masher besides maybe giving it a higher proc chance.

The problem with weakening the formula is that it makes it impactful only on a dedicated MA build.

Lowering the AoE is nice, but it'd still be very powerful. 150+ is still terrifying to be hit with since that's the margin of MP most units are going to be around unless they're a Summoner or have a high MP robe.



I recommend going with flat damage, because it wouldn't be enough to cripple a dedicated mage (which is fair), but would be enough to cripple another job with lower MP, like Squires or White Magic Paladins, or what have you.

It'd also make 'mage assassins' with dual-wielding Mage Mashers more appealing, and could potentially serve the same purpose as the old Bizen Boat (removal of all MP) on top of damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 04, 2015, 03:50:45 pm
Another thought that occurred to me. If people are still iffy on shuriken being WP*SP then why not try SP*10

It was Yagyu Darkness' WP from vanilla and I think it can work here. Feel free to agree or disagree
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 06, 2015, 12:36:32 pm
Will the AI even use Bizen Boat if it cannot prevent the spell from being cast?  If so, Bizen Boat will never be used until (target current MP - spell MP + 1) drops to the MP damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 06, 2015, 01:10:02 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on September 06, 2015, 12:36:32 pm
Will the AI even use Bizen Boat if it cannot prevent the spell from being cast?  If so, Bizen Boat will never be used until (target current MP - spell MP + 1) drops to the MP damage.


You should have began that sentence with "Riddle me this"

That would have been fitting. But yes my point exactly. If we did the flat damage then the AI wouldn't use bizen boat if it won't be enough to cancel the spell. The only way that would ever happen is if the AI is out of range to attack (which is another form of disruption in a sense)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 08, 2015, 03:19:16 am
I think that burning a target's MP is fine, a team that relies on MP should have means of restoring MP anyway. However I would agree it should just be slightly less AoE. It has the potential of dropping an entire opponent's team's MP from full to zero in a single attack. By removing 1 AoE and giving it 1 Range like Koutetsu/Masamune, something like this becomes much less likely to happen and it retains its purpose, dropping a target's MP to zero.

On the other hand, Spell Absorb needs a buff. The way it works currently, it can't even take out a Thief or Paladin's MP. It's completely useless against low MP teams. If I'd give flat MP damage to any ability, it would be this one.

It's already been said before, but remove Poison from Kagesougi since it's already on Shuriken. I am ok with Shuriken's SP*10 proposal. SP*PA would be fine as well. Anything with WP doesn't really make sense, it doesn't use the caster's weapon.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 08, 2015, 06:35:56 am
Is there a list of reaction abilities that you can't activate by friendly fire? Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't get chrono trigger or dragon spirit to activate through a friendly fire earth dragon like you can with other reactions like PA Save, MA Save,  and even Counter Flood which doesn't activates, but can't target friendly units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 08, 2015, 06:52:01 am
Chrono Trigger you need to be hit in order for it to work. I guess you're just unlucky. If you want friendly fire to trigger reaction abilities, try low damaging lores. A unit with quickening and chrono trigger is awesome.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 08, 2015, 06:55:48 am
Quote from: Barren on September 08, 2015, 06:52:01 am
Chrono Trigger you need to be hit in order for it to work. I guess you're just unlucky. If you want friendly fire to trigger reaction abilities, try low damaging lores. A unit with quickening and chrono trigger is awesome.


I don't know I made a team with 4 scholars all with chrono trigger just to see if I was unlucky. Chrono trigger still never activated unless the enemy team attacked.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 08, 2015, 07:38:25 am
Hmm, in that case maybe you just simply needed to be hit.

Maybe next patch chrono trigger should activate upon hitting even by physical elemental healing similar to dragon spirit
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 08, 2015, 11:18:46 am
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on September 08, 2015, 03:19:16 am
I think that burning a target's MP is fine, a team that relies on MP should have means of restoring MP anyway. However I would agree it should just be slightly less AoE. It has the potential of dropping an entire opponent's team's MP from full to zero in a single attack. By removing 1 AoE and giving it 1 Range like Koutetsu/Masamune, something like this becomes much less likely to happen and it retains its purpose, dropping a target's MP to zero.


I agree with this.  Bizen Boat won't be so bad if we give mages a way to restore their MP from 0.  The only active skills that can be used to recover from it is Ether and Chakra.  Both are on skill sets that mages cannot use well.  The skills that mages can use well, namely Carbunkle and Spell Absorb, cannot be used because these spells themselves cost MP.  Having a skill require the very parameter it is used to restore is silly.  It's like having Cure or Moogle cost HP.

If Spell Absorb gets buffed and both Spell Absorb and Carbunkle lose their MP cost, then Bizen Boat won't be as fatal as it is now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 09, 2015, 06:21:01 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on September 08, 2015, 11:18:46 am
I agree with this.  Bizen Boat won't be so bad if we give mages a way to restore their MP from 0.  The only active skills that can be used to recover from it is Ether and Chakra.  Both are on skill sets that mages cannot use well.  The skills that mages can use well, namely Carbunkle and Spell Absorb, cannot be used because these spells themselves cost MP.  Having a skill require the very parameter it is used to restore is silly.  It's like having Cure or Moogle cost HP.

If Spell Absorb gets buffed and both Spell Absorb and Carbunkle lose their MP cost, then Bizen Boat won't be as fatal as it is now.


I second this. I remember a conversation earlier about removing carbunkle's MP cost involving the AI's limited ability to judge whether to restore MP, so it could potentially fix two issues. Bizen Boat getting less AOE and having one range would also (mostly) solve the issue of accidentally burning a teammate's MP as well. And I agree that spell absorb is not really too appealing right now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on September 09, 2015, 07:21:31 pm
+1 to that. Carbunkle and Spell Absorb should both be free to cast, and Spell Absorb needs a buff for sure.

Bizen boat really needs a nerf badly. It cripples entire teams MP with one use. And with the current situation with mages not being able to restore their mp with the spells mentioned above... Yeah.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 11, 2015, 01:06:00 pm
Here's another idea about song/dance. If we remove any speed altering like quickening, what if cheer song/slow dance has like a 33% chance to inflict haste/slow

That way at least these songs can still be good without altering.

I was also thinking that life song can just heal HP but regen moved back to nameless song.

And nameless dance should have poison instead of wiznaibus but also don't move, silence, blind and don't act. At least that would give nameless dance something to be useful for.

Of course, its just a thought
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on September 11, 2015, 01:13:47 pm
i am agreeing with barren here. if we remove SP buffs from the next patch (which i find that bards refuse to use Cheer song unless there is nothing much else given to them) they should give haste and slow... it would open up more ways of getting that buff out... though it could make haste 2 and slow 2 less used due to the songs and dances hitting the entire field instead of a 3 aoe.

Quote from: Mudvayne on September 09, 2015, 07:21:31 pm
+1 to that. Carbunkle and Spell Absorb should both be free to cast, and Spell Absorb needs a buff for sure.

Bizen boat really needs a nerf badly. It cripples entire teams MP with one use. And with the current situation with mages not being able to restore their mp with the spells mentioned above... Yeah.


I will agree with that bizen boat is insane against a caster team as it is!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 11, 2015, 01:55:17 pm
Quote from: Barren on September 11, 2015, 01:06:00 pm
Here's another idea about song/dance. If we remove any speed altering like quickening, what if cheer song/slow dance has like a 33% chance to inflict haste/slow

That way at least these songs can still be good without altering.

I was also thinking that life song can just heal HP but regen moved back to nameless song.

And nameless dance should have poison instead of wiznaibus but also don't move, silence, blind and don't act. At least that would give nameless dance something to be useful for.

Of course, its just a thought


The problem with this (I believe) is that the AI won't stop using the skill. From what I read, the AI doesn't stop using the skill "Nameless Dance," or "Nameless Song," after it starts because there is a chance for haste to be inflicted. Therefore, the AI won't prioritize healing, or damage, or even killing an enemy once it starts a Nameless technique because it just won't stop that technique...at least that's the case a huge percentage of the time with these skills.

My suggestion is to simply add +25 CT to Nameless Song (along with Regen and removing it from Life Song). While some might say this steps on Last Song, it really doesn't. It adds +25 CT less than 10% of the time as 50% of the time the technique will miss and the other 50% (If we add Regen) it will give +25 CT less than 10% of the time. Even without adding Regen, it would only be a 10% chance of ever striking an ally, while Last Song has a 40% chance of adding 100 CT to any ally. The uses of these two songs would still be very different.

With Nameless Dance, Don't Act would probably be fine. If anything, people will start blocking this heavily (though if Don't Act is added, I might suggest adding Don't Act Protection to an additional accessory or Robe, say, the Silk Robe or the Angel Ring.) If people have a problem with that, then we could do -25 CT on the Nameless Dance as well.

Quote from: Mudvayne on September 09, 2015, 07:21:31 pm
+1 to that. Carbunkle and Spell Absorb should both be free to cast, and Spell Absorb needs a buff for sure.

Bizen boat really needs a nerf badly. It cripples entire teams MP with one use. And with the current situation with mages not being able to restore their mp with the spells mentioned above... Yeah.


Bizen Boat is really the only skill that counters Move-MP UP. Since the AI almost only exclusively uses it against enemies who are in the process of casting (there are exceptions, but the AI will generally use another skill it has if something else is available), I don't think nerfing it much, if at all, is a good idea. Perhaps allowing MP Restore and Absorb MP (which means giving Bizen Boat an MP use of at least 1 MP I guess?) to trigger on them would be a good idea. It makes these skills more attractive in comparison if you fear Bizen Boat.

I realize the tournament showed a lot of people how Bizen Boat can interfere with casting and it hurts. However, remember that someone must put it on their team using the Draw Out Skill Set (an expensive skillset in general I might add) and have enough JP left over for it; a rule which didn't apply in our tournament. Skills like Masamune, Murasame and Chirijiraden are usually staples, and Bizen Boat takes a back seat when you have to pick and choose. If a nerf is still felt as necessary, then a small JP cost increase or a small MP cost would be better, in my opinion, than nerfing the skill itself.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 11, 2015, 02:22:40 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on September 11, 2015, 01:55:17 pm
The problem with this (I believe) is that the AI won't stop using the skill. From what I read, the AI doesn't stop using the skill "Nameless Dance," or "Nameless Song," after it starts because there is a chance for haste to be inflicted. Therefore, the AI won't prioritize healing, or damage, or even killing an enemy once it starts a Nameless technique because it just won't stop that technique...at least that's the case a huge percentage of the time with these skills.

My suggestion is to simply add +25 CT to Nameless Song (along with Regen and removing it from Life Song). While some might say this steps on Last Song, it really doesn't. It adds +25 CT less than 10% of the time as 50% of the time the technique will miss and the other 50% (If we add Regen) it will give +25 CT less than 10% of the time. Even without adding Regen, it would only be a 10% chance of ever striking an ally, while Last Song has a 40% chance of adding 100 CT to any ally. The uses of these two songs would still be very different.

With Nameless Dance, Don't Act would probably be fine. If anything, people will start blocking this heavily (though if Don't Act is added, I might suggest adding Don't Act Protection to an additional accessory or Robe, say, the Silk Robe or the Angel Ring.) If people have a problem with that, then we could do -25 CT on the Nameless Dance as well.


Good point, haste is too much of a priority for the AI. Though I think nameless song/dance will be underused no matter what because of the random nature of the skills. I wasn't aware that you could split up stat increasing attributes of an ability like that, but you guys work miracles so I wouldn't be surprised if there actually is a way.

I'm not too sure about nameless dance getting don't act. I do agree with some clothes/robes gaining some status protection though. I think it would be good because there are not many units that can equip armor innately.

On the subject of songs/dances, I also kind of liked the idea of brave/faith altering songs and dances mentioned earlier (would these be stackable with faith up?), although brave probably shouldn't be allowed to be lowered past 40 because of the fury mechanic. Matches would take forever.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 11, 2015, 02:52:44 pm
Not a fan of clothes getting status protection. Shields sure, but not clothes. Armored users don't get enough use as is. The next thing we'll be asking for is armor getting the abillity to absorb.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 12, 2015, 06:17:24 am
I agree with Shintroy.  Status protection is armor's domain.  Robe of Lords is an anomaly, I suppose.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 12, 2015, 07:34:44 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on September 12, 2015, 06:17:24 am
I agree with Shintroy.  Status protection is armor's domain.  Robe of Lords is an anomaly, I suppose.


Not so much an anomaly just as Silence is a killer for mages. Sure, there's a ton of Silence protecting accessories out there, but Robe of Lords opens the accessory slot if you're only trying to prevent Silence/want lots of MP on top of it.



For a few suggestions, mostly building off of past ones/restating them for recap reasons:

Giving Mage Masher a set MP damage Proc (75 sounds nice) would help it actually see use.
Spears gaining Jump to boost, well, Jump would help it immensely(and Jump-based movements). Samurai gaining them might be iffy depending on which can be doublehanded, but can still be powerful.
Demi-gun is neat. Not sure on 2-hands or range, though.
Please, PLEASE consider Netherseers. They're an awesome idea and I have lots of ideas in mind for them already.
Katana(s) gaining respective Draw Out skill. Not so great for Paladins, but Paladins rarely seem to use them anyway and it's more incentive for other jobs to use Equip Heavy Blade.
A few shield changes. Ensanguined Shield? I forgot what was proposed for it. Ohright.

Swords
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Shieldrender: Redesign?
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

Katana
Kotetsu Knife: WP increased from 9 to 10
Masamune: SP increased from -2 to -1, now adds Slow and Stop immunity

Staves
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

Guns
Mythril Gun: Changed to Demi Gun, Casts Demi, ignores M-EV, 6 Rng, Forced Two-Hands

Longbows
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Atheist Bow: Innocent proc rate decreased from 100% to 50%, Range increased from 4 to 5

Spears
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, +2 Jump
Spear/Mythril Spear/Partisan/Holy Lance: Redesign?

Poles
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

Cloths
Redesign?

Bags
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add MP Regen (or not if this not a trivial hack)

Shields
Genji Shield: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Aegis Shield: M-EV decreased from 30 to 25
Mirror Shield: New shield, 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield, 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen (Modified version of Reks' Bulwark)

Headbands
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

Armor
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence

Accessories
Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump (for mad hops)
N-Kai Armlet: Gains Darkness immunity
108 Gems: Gains Faith/Innocent immunity
[/spoiler]

And ideas borrowed from CCP2, like the Dragoon Boots or such.(turns Attack into Jump, with a limited range and height but frees up a secondary for other use, and adds +2 to Jump movement)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 13, 2015, 11:51:19 am
It's known by most Mime can't use weapons correctly due to bugs that make them either unequip their primary weapon or equip clothes as weapons resulting in bugged attacks. I don't think it's known to most mimes can equip shields just fine without any equip bugs though. With that, I'll again suggest mime either getting a 9 SP buff or the innate ability to equip shields. I'm more of a fan of the latter since it adds more depth to mime teams without taking away from other units and classes with 8 speed by having to deal with turn order and such.

Lancers getting 9 SP if all spears and the jump CT formula get reworked seems fine as well. Armored units don't get enough attention since they're all base 8 SP and out of all armored classes, lancers would be the best choice in getting the speed boost.

Robes aren't in the same category of equipment as clothing just like clothing and armor. Robes differ by always boosting MP across the board and having the only buff on equipment as seen on Light Robe. It's not odd that robes have status immunities or absorb properties since there's chameleon robe.

Quote from: Reks on September 12, 2015, 07:34:44 pm
And ideas borrowed from CCP2, like the Dragoon Boots or such.(turns Attack into Jump, with a limited range and height but frees up a secondary for other use, and adds +2 to Jump movement)

Completely against items giving abilities since that defeats the purpose of the JP cap. I'd be fine with a piece of equipment that strengthened abilities similarly to elemental strengthening equipment. Sounds like too much work me though.

I'd like to keep the Arena jobs as they are. I read a suggestion a while ago of wanting to replace mime with another class like blue mage since no one really used mime. This may have been an early 139, or even end 138 post, but it's still a bit too much for me to see a class go.

I'd be completely okay with adding a class to arena though. Could it even be done? Maybe change a male and female guest class into a matching job/ability set? There's no need to change classes through the formation menu so I could see it being possible in the future. I'm more in favor of adding traditional final fantasy classes though. Red Mage.... green... blue... a bunch of ideas to throw around. The discussion would have to have it's own thread since it's not a part of the meta.... If a gunner job gets introduced then spell guns will be a thing of the past. We could have two hand and one handed guns with abilities that work similar to jump with a boost in damage when you have guns equipped maybe?

Would it be possible to add weapon specific boosts in damage to abilities actually? Kagesougi with a .75 damage nerf to non katana weapons sounds great. This would balance builds like double healing staff without having to nerf the WP of healing staff which would hurt the weapon's base function.

140 news when?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 13, 2015, 12:42:50 pm
If we do add netherseer class we can always use Rafa and Malak sprites if Rek's design doesn't work out. I was also thinking of re adding the fire/thunder tons from an earlier patch. At least to their skillset
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 13, 2015, 01:01:37 pm
Quote from: Barren on September 13, 2015, 12:42:50 pm
If we do add netherseer class we can always use Rafa and Malak sprites if Rek's design doesn't work out. I was also thinking of re adding the fire/thunder tons from an earlier patch. At least to their skillset


Unless the spriting guys are up for it, the design wouldn't matter too much anyway :P

But yes here's hoping.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 13, 2015, 01:19:06 pm
Oh netherseer is Malak and Rafa's class? It's been so long. If we're going to use exact Rafa and Malak sprites it would be odd to see more than one of either sprite on a team. I'd suggest a hero job/class balancing rule where you're only allowed one non generic unit per team if there if that was the case. Would be much better to just balance the skillset and get a spriter to slightly edit Rafa and Malak's spirte and portrait to look more generic. With that said, I'd like dark knight in the game since the sprite is already complete. Onion Knight as well. I imagine that just being a class with great stats with no skill set of its own.

Male Onion Knight - 11 PA, 9 MA, 9SP, 3 Move, 3 Jump
Female  - 9 PA, 11 MA
Equips all equipment including headbands similar to mime. Equips all weapons.

...Doesn't seem OP. Would adding innate Two Swords and Two Hands be too much?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 13, 2015, 01:36:05 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on September 13, 2015, 01:19:06 pm
Oh netherseer is Malak and Rafa's class? It's been so long. If we're going to use exact Rafa and Malak sprites it would be odd to see more than one of either sprite on a team. I'd suggest a hero job/class balancing rule where you're only allowed one non generic unit per team if there if that was the case. Would be much better to just balance the skillset and get a spriter to slightly edit Rafa and Malak's spirte and portrait to look more generic. With that said, I'd like dark knight in the game since the sprite is already complete. Onion Knight as well. I imagine that just being a class with great stats with no skill set of its own.

Male Onion Knight - 11 PA, 9 MA, 9SP, 3 Move, 3 Jump
Female  - 9 PA, 11 MA
Equips all equipment including headbands similar to mime. Equips all weapons.

...Doesn't seem OP. Would adding innate Two Swords and Two Hands be too much?


If you're gonna limit a class, you might as well limit Mimes and Thieves and Squires too.

IF they use Rafa/Malak, it's nothing more than a fill-in for thematic purposes. My idea could be neat (I've been too depressed to draw much, sadly), but spriting is a lot of work.

Even editing them to look more generic is a good amount of effort.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 13, 2015, 02:05:49 pm
Just a suggestion towards guest, or special jobs introduced from vanilla since they were usually designed to be more OP than generic classes. Besides, the current arena classes are already balanced. There's no reason to add a new rule towards them and it was only a suggestion if we used Malak and Rafa's sprites. It'd would be pretty lazy of us to use those their sprites even if adding their classes to Arena. It would eventually lead to using other special character sprites for arena classes like Weigraf and Agrias as male and female Holy Knight character sprites. I know they're just sprites, but I think unless somethings done to them they should still have a rule that only applies to them.

I do agree on limiting the amount of squires per team though. Pretty OP job if you ask me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 13, 2015, 06:55:20 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on September 13, 2015, 02:05:49 pm
Just a suggestion towards guest, or special jobs introduced from vanilla since they were usually designed to be more OP than generic classes. Besides, the current arena classes are already balanced. There's no reason to add a new rule towards them and it was only a suggestion if we used Malak and Rafa's sprites. It'd would be pretty lazy of us to use those their sprites even if adding their classes to Arena. It would eventually lead to using other special character sprites for arena classes like Weigraf and Agrias as male and female Holy Knight character sprites. I know they're just sprites, but I think unless somethings done to them they should still have a rule that only applies to them.

I do agree on limiting the amount of squires per team though. Pretty OP job if you ask me.


... I was being sarcastic. Limiting a job in regular rules should never happen.

Netherseer isn't a job introduced from vanilla, it was thought up by Gaignun with abilities that use a similar mechanic to -ton spells. Using the unique existing sprites is literally just a fill in, because a lot of free work forced on others does not equal lazy. And sprites are unimportant so long as things work, no? It's remarkably silly to want to limit a new class because you don't want to use what vanilla already has that might work in case the spriters can't/don't want to make new ones.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Jumza on September 13, 2015, 07:36:13 pm
If you're ever concerned about sprites just remember that any sprite can have more palettes added to it even if it's unique (up to the limit of course).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 13, 2015, 07:37:11 pm
It would be cool to add in the holy knight job from vanilla using Wiegraf and Agrias. Of course the stats has to be balanced as well as the sword skills. P-Ev evadable seems to work. MP costs works too. But I was also thinking maybe we can make as the only class with no reaction, support or movement which would be a bit challenging but also can allow a different kind of flexibility for it to be unique. Of course I know it's not urgent that we do it but just a cool idea nonetheless
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 13, 2015, 11:32:40 pm
My concern, and I think it's valid, is who will be doing these changes...Is FFT Master still around? I have not seen him since I came back to the site. If not him, who will be implementing changes, and possible play testing?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 13, 2015, 11:39:26 pm
Here's my input: I think that non-generic classes could be a cool idea, but I just feel like they would overshadow the other classes. I would be okay with just using the sprites and abilities as long as other classes get to use the skills as well, rather than it being specific to Holy Knight or whatever other class.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: gatebuster202 on September 13, 2015, 11:59:00 pm
I think they'd just be another skillset DW. Which is kinda funny, since you'd basically just be paying a 250 JP premium for a skillset that has, 0 R/S/Ms and can only be a primary and secondary. Limiting things like Sword Skills, (Which should be broader and different then just Vanilla) to still requiring swords, will make the (possibly) more powerful abilities, balanced. (Then again, everyone and their brother can currently equip swords. FFT Arena would benefit from ARH like nobody's business.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 14, 2015, 02:13:25 am
Quote from: gatebuster202 on September 13, 2015, 11:32:40 pm
My concern, and I think it's valid, is who will be doing these changes...Is FFT Master still around? I have not seen him since I came back to the site. If not him, who will be implementing changes, and possible play testing?


If you look back a number of pages he did make a post.

Yes, he's still here, and a lot of what we propose will possibly be looked over?

But I don't expect changes to be hugely dynamic. Possibly a new class, and if not at least guaranteed Scholars are getting changed/overhauled somehow. He wanted to do so before but put out 1.3 before implementing anything for it, and with the number of complaints for Tornado/Quake it's more than likely they're gonna get spliced when 1.4 is here.



And while this is Arena, there ARE more 'tournament' patches around. Zareb's comes to mind, because it's pretty decent even if it lacks Arena's favoritism.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 14, 2015, 04:29:25 am
I don't know about others, but instead of publicly releasing a project that probably wouldn't really make it far unless great work is continually put into, I just contribute to an existing one instead and leave mine to some fun side project I attend to once in a while. Altogether we bring great ideas to Arena and slowly bring this to an excellent balance patch (currently aimed for multiplayer, but eventually single player as well). That being said, I wasn't aware other multiplayer patches. You have to dig deeper, I suppose.

Well, I had some thoughts about monsters. Some problems to be specific. If we plan on leaving the current family tree system, it would be hardly feasible to have 24 different palettes for each 'family' and confusing. Since there aren't really any plans for monsters that I'm aware of, I propose we ditch the families and just make a single, generic monster of each type, just like the humans. Also allow human RSMs so that they're not just copies of each other in tournaments. If they don't automatically learn generic secondaries, we could let them use that as well although this might be more arguable since they'd have their primaries auto-learned by default.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 14, 2015, 04:50:13 am
I intended Netherseers to be a generic job like any other.  Their skills would be balanced accordingly.

Introducing special jobs with abilities/stats so powerful that they must be limited to one per team would upset the metagame more than a new generic job ever would.  Teams would devolve into 1 superjob + 3 support archetypes.  This isn't bad in itself, but it doesn't conform to Arena's proven style.  Thus, I think it is best to leave superjobs to another project.

As for the implementation of additional jobs, there should be plenty of memory taken up by unused guest jobs.  These guest jobs have unique ability sets which should be swappable with new ones.  However, their RSMs are all copies of the Squire job class.  I am not sure if unique copies are assigned to each job, or if each job merely point to the Squire job's memory space.  If it is the latter, then implementing new RSMs might be a little trickier.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 14, 2015, 11:16:58 am
Well, I'm not sure why we have to create new classes to have some of the abilities taken from these jobs.

Based on other patches, particularly with the Holy Knight skillset, abilities are actually severely nerfed when adding an MP cost and P-Evade. Take this into account that Arena has many more ways to prevent status than most of the other patches (or Vanilla, even), and these skills don't seem so overpowered when placing them on, say, Paladin or Squire. Of course, they can stand be nerfed further for damage, status or AOE purposes (particularly, if adding any of them to Paladin an AOE nerf...to leave Southern Cross still relevant.)

Monsters would be a lot of fun to see. It's a lot of work, though and I totally understand that. If it's too much to add them all at one time, I think people would probably be happy to introduce maybe four at a time. Seeing Chocobos, Goblins, Minotaurs and Skeletons to start would probably be my top picks. Even with only one version, I think this would be okay.

The Netherseer class would be pretty cool. I'm trying to think of R/S/Ms for it that aren't used already and aren't OP. MP Switch would probably be okay as long as the overage damage would hurt the HP. (Probably self explanatory, but just in case it isn't, an example would be if a unit has 300 HP and 100 MP and gets hit for 150 damage, the unit would lose all their MP AND 50 HP IF MP Switch activates.)

Another one I've seen work is to add Protect/Shell upon taking HP damage. If this job is allowed to Equip Headbands, then Equip Headband would probably be good (although I think this should be added either way, if not to the new job, then to Monk), and the Move on Water ability (which I realize is innate to Ninja, but cannot be selected by any other unit who wishes to choose that ability).

Edit: Obviously, if we do introduce monsters, the Monster Skill ability can be a Support ability placed on this new class?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 14, 2015, 12:00:53 pm
MP Switch seems like it would be more of a crutch than a benefit. And if we were to implement it, I would not recommend putting it on a mage class that cannot restore its own MP. It really doesn't make sense to put this reaction on a caster class which relies heavily on MP to use skills already, since when they get hit they will loose all of their MP and be unable to cast anything productive, even with Move-MP Up. Even if Carbunkle/Spell Absorb loose their MP cost, a unit still has to take a turn to restore MP, and turns are lost as a result. If any class were to get this reaction, I would suggest a physical class that doesn't rely too much on MP.

What if we were to have a reaction like damage split, but dealing MP damage instead? We could put that on Netherseer.

Also, I like the idea of a protect/shell reaction ability, but what if we were to have a reaction that gave reflect upon being hit? This would give a unit access to reflect even after death, and it wouldn't intrude on magic-based revival. Currently, there are no abilities that add reflect directly and all equipment gives is initial: reflect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 14, 2015, 12:50:36 pm
If MP switch deals excess damage to HP that'd be great.
DW's suggestion on an MP damaging counter would also be great. It would be a great addition for non faith and MA units to counter casters.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 18, 2015, 02:51:34 pm
What about something like FF6's Atma Weapon?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 18, 2015, 03:01:35 pm
That would be the opposite of Moonlight, I believe. The higher your HP, the more damage, as opposed to Moonlight being more powerful at lower HP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 03:27:09 pm
Sounds like it would need it's own weapon class to be made correctly. It wouldn't be possible to categorize the weapon if it followed an HP based damage formula. Even as a proc weapon, it seems too good to be balanced. It would deal WP*PA for the first hit then bonus damage based on your HP. There's no way that wouldn't be broken.

I'd be against it mainly due to there being enough great swords in arena. Replace or buff shieldrender. Maybe increase mystic blade's WP by one? Increase Ultima weapon's proc chance to 50%?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 18, 2015, 05:46:03 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 03:27:09 pm
Sounds like it would need it's own weapon class to be made correctly. It wouldn't be possible to categorize the weapon if it followed an HP based damage formula. Even as a proc weapon, it seems too good to be balanced. It would deal WP*PA for the first hit then bonus damage based on your HP. There's no way that wouldn't be broken.

I'd be against it mainly due to there being enough great swords in arena. Replace or buff shieldrender. Maybe increase mystic blade's WP by one? Increase Ultima weapon's proc chance to 50%?

No, it can be done via ASM because it's really just a special formula.

And by that logic you can call the Platina Dagger MORE broken, since at 1/2 health a target WILL die from it's proc.

At most, it'd have WP, and then instead of MA or PA, would be based probably on % of HP. How to balance THAT I'm not sure, but that kind of formula would encourage people to use the higher HP equips more often.

And it really is just an idea. And it's silly to denounce it right away because there are 'good enough' swords already. More good things are never bad. Hell, make it a Knight Sword and suddenly High HP Paladins are terrifying.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 18, 2015, 07:11:04 pm
Actually, I agree with Shintroy. If you use a 400+ Paladin with that weapon, it would be doing huge damage at full health, killing almost every unit. Also, one thing these units would have going for them is that the AI doesn't attack higher HP units first if it has a choice.

Platina dagger isn't broken because you have to get the unit below half health and the platina dagger has low WP, which by the way,  half is the threshold for when the AI starts to use heals.

However, I think this weapon could be balanced with Always: Blind.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 18, 2015, 08:25:49 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on September 18, 2015, 07:11:04 pm
Actually, I agree with Shintroy. If you use a 400+ Paladin with that weapon, it would be doing huge damage at full health, killing almost every unit. Also, one thing these units would have going for them is that the AI doesn't attack higher HP units first if it has a choice.

Platina dagger isn't broken because you have to get the unit below half health and the platina dagger has low WP, which by the way,  half is the threshold for when the AI starts to use heals.

However, I think this weapon could be balanced with Always: Blind.


Which is why discussing the possibility of it's unique formula first would be better than just assuming it'd murder everything at full HP. As in, don't be so quick to pull the trigger before the Mediator is done talking, eh?

It would do the most damage at full HP, yes, and as such might be a bit better than other weapons to give it an edge (like say, scaling on actual HP totals rather than %. A bit sloppier, but ensures you'd need a higher health unit to really do damage with it.)

Or rather, a far simpler formula.

WP*X

At 400 or greater HP, X is treated as... Let's say, 18.

At 300 or greater, let's say 15.

At 200 or greater, let's say 12.

At 100 or greater, let's say 9.

Less than that would be 6. (and dead is obviously dead)

If it happens to be a Knight Sword, and it's WP is (throwing the number out there) 15, then the damage will be at most, pre-fury and pre-Attack UP.... 270. Which is a lot, yes, but hardly special (especially given how only Paladins can equip this naturally)

If it happens to be a regular Sword, and it's WP is 10 (matching Lionheart and the Rune Blade), the damage would be 180. Again, hardly something special given it's property of WEAKENING when HP is lowered, and would require having over 400 to gain that damage.

What keeps it from being overpowered is this: it's like any other weapon. A unit has to get close, when evasion applies (because any other formula is only going to pay attention to the WP, not it's unique Attack formula - and proving it no better than other weapons for that purpose). Gain Concentrate, and you ensure that your damage isn't going to increase at all, because it wouldn't scale on MA/PA. (yes, potential Warpath, but you're almost guaranteed to lose a good chunk of HP if you do that.)

Yes, units tend to attack low HP targets first, but they'll still attack higher HP ones as well, and will attack them if it's their only target/their last target.

And equipping armor for the purpose of more HP and strength with the Atma Weapon would mean sacrificing the benefits that other armors provide (Absorb/halving/strengthening/speed(?) for cloth, status protection from armor).


It can always be given Immunity: Berserk to ensure it doesn't get that damage boost.

Giving it Always: Blind is counterproductive. If my suggestions haven't been too stellar, try discussing a different Always/Immunity if it's quirk is still too strong for people.

Edit: And it obviously wouldn't be used with 2-Hands or 2-Swords if it were just a regular Sword.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pm
Quote from: Reks on September 18, 2015, 08:25:49 pm
Which is why discussing the possibility of it's unique formula first would be better than just assuming it'd murder everything at full HP. As in, don't be so quick to pull the trigger before the Mediator is done talking, eh?

It would do the most damage at full HP, yes, and as such might be a bit better than other weapons to give it an edge (like say, scaling on actual HP totals rather than %. A bit sloppier, but ensures you'd need a higher health unit to really do damage with it.)

Or rather, a far simpler formula.

WP*X

At 400 or greater HP, X is treated as... Let's say, 18.

At 300 or greater, let's say 15.

At 200 or greater, let's say 12.

At 100 or greater, let's say 9.

Less than that would be 6. (and dead is obviously dead)

If it happens to be a Knight Sword, and it's WP is (throwing the number out there) 15, then the damage will be at most, pre-fury and pre-Attack UP.... 270. Which is a lot, yes, but hardly special (especially given how only Paladins can equip this naturally)

If it happens to be a regular Sword, and it's WP is 10 (matching Lionheart and the Rune Blade), the damage would be 180. Again, hardly something special given it's property of WEAKENING when HP is lowered, and would require having over 400 to gain that damage.

What keeps it from being overpowered is this: it's like any other weapon. A unit has to get close, when evasion applies (because any other formula is only going to pay attention to the WP, not it's unique Attack formula - and proving it no better than other weapons for that purpose). Gain Concentrate, and you ensure that your damage isn't going to increase at all, because it wouldn't scale on MA/PA. (yes, potential Warpath, but you're almost guaranteed to lose a good chunk of HP if you do that.)

Yes, units tend to attack low HP targets first, but they'll still attack higher HP ones as well, and will attack them if it's their only target/their last target.

And equipping armor for the purpose of more HP and strength with the Atma Weapon would mean sacrificing the benefits that other armors provide (Absorb/halving/strengthening/speed(?) for cloth, status protection from armor).


It can always be given Immunity: Berserk to ensure it doesn't get that damage boost.

Giving it Always: Blind is counterproductive. If my suggestions haven't been too stellar, try discussing a different Always/Immunity if it's quirk is still too strong for people.

If everyone agreed with one another there'd be no discussion and it's your own fault for not completing your post. Take it out on yourself not us.

For a weapon to be included in Arena, it absolutely has to follow the the damage formula of it's weapon type. If it didn't it would have in a different weapon class. Why is this a problem? It's obvious, because makign special case weapons doesn't belong in the game. Not because it's in bad taste, but because there's probably no more weapon classes to fit in the game.

Even after reading your explanation of the weapon I'm still against it. It would end up like 138 Katar and mainly be usded for a specific build. Powerful or not, it's not good for the game. A weapon has to have depth, that's why Pheonix Blade was changed. Was there any viable Phoenix Blade  team besides a stalling, SP altering one? Not a rhetorical question either. I genually don't know since I wasn't around until late 138, and even then I wasn't even aware of the master guide until 139.

If there's a spell that deals damage based off HP in FFT it wouldn't work as the proc either since it would have to be given low WP, proc rate, and be balanced around classes that can equip swords. At that point it's inferior to Platina dagger, Moonlight, and just about every other non proc weapon in the game. Too much work even talking about the weapon. I don't see why FFMaster has to also do an asm hack for the thing. High risk low reward for Arena's meta.

How about we talk about what absolutely needs to be in the game? 2 Range, or even 3 range masamune. Absolutely no wrong can come from this. /joke

Seriously though, if Katanas get the proposed Forced 2 Hand buff someone mentioned earlier it would work. All Katanas would need a WP buff of course, but what makes it interesting is that it doesn't take away from spears. Samurais would still have innate 2Hand, it's just they wouldn't benefit from it unless they used the equip weapon support. That means 2 Hand javelins would still be more viable than a 2 range masamune.

12, 13, or even 15 WP it would still be a balanced weapon. Paladins already have southern and grand cross which already gives the range, plus they'll still have the shield slot if they're using a 1 range weapon which makes it a inferior to cross build paladins. It wouldn't take away from Knight Sword since the katana wouldn't have the W-EV or buff or status immunities knight swords get, so as a forced 2H weapon option, paladins still would benifit more from having a knight sword. Male and Female samurais have terrible PA so there's no need to worry about the weapon being over powered.

The current Masamune is -2 SP and Always Haste making it a great weapon to use with SP altering abilities. They'll have more turns than until they're capped out and are no longer able to use the ability. For their team mates it's great since they're also more likely to benefit more than they would a regular unit. I'm the only one to abuse masamune and cheer song so far, but it could still be done a lot better. The thing is, SP altering abiltiies might not be around in the next patch making the Masamune a terrible weapon since it would keep a samurai or paladin at an effective 7 SP.

What do you's guys think about a 2 range Masamune?  Katana's don't get enough discussion so I throw this out whenever I can.

I actually think it'd be best if we all stuck to discussing one thing every week, or every few days so everything can be discussed, that way everything's organized and someone (FFMaster) can navigate posts easier.

-------------------
Also Platina Dagger being broken is laughable Reks. Alone, the weapon's low tier. What makes it great is how it can be paired with another weapon due to being dual wield-able. Even then, there are far better combinations that don't include platina dagger. Ancient Sword, Sleep Sword is more badass then say... Dual Cutter+Platina Dagger. There's hidden knife+Repel Knife.... Spell Edge, Hidden Knife, Short Edge combos....

Shiiet. What ever happened to the double slasher hype?

Requesting a match for Bramble Blast. I feel like showcasing Platina Dagger's potential.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 18, 2015, 09:41:31 pm
Alright, let's back up and say it's a new Knight Sword, because it makes a bit more sense to be one.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pm
If everyone agreed with one another there'd be no discussion and it's your own fault for not completing your post. Take it out on yourself not us.


I do apologize for not fleshing the idea out right away, but at the same time neither was I biting you guys for it. I wanted to throw the idea in the water and see interest before following through. Your immediate "No" prompted me to ask "why" and explain it, not so much just support over it.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pmFor a weapon to be included in Arena, it absolutely has to follow the the damage formula of it's weapon type. If it didn't it would have in a different weapon class. Why is this a problem? It's obvious, because makign special case weapons doesn't belong in the game. Not because it's in bad taste, but because there's probably no more weapon classes to fit in the game.


And there's a thing: quirky damage formulas can be attached to specific weapons. Look at Blood Sword/Bloody Strings and Healing Staff/Murasame, and the proposed MP damaging weapons... Like you yourself wanted in the past. According to Celdia, it can be done -without- messing up the formula too much. Just requires ASMing to do, which FFM CAN do.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pm\Even after reading your explanation of the weapon I'm still against it. It would end up like 138 Katar and mainly be usded for a specific build. Powerful or not, it's not good for the game. A weapon has to have depth, that's why Pheonix Blade was changed. Was there any viable Phoenix Blade  team besides a stalling, SP altering one? Not a rhetorical question either. I genually don't know since I wasn't around until late 138, and even then I wasn't even aware of the master guide until 139.


By this logic many of the weapons that exist would be targets as well, since their literal only purpose is -for- specific builds. And attacking it -because- it doesn't have any depth is kinda... You can't really compare it to a Phoenix Blade.

My intent here is now to give Paladins (who're not widely used as an attackers) a bit more appeal with a weapon that encourages HP equipment. You don't HAVE to use Maximillian and Grand Helm to see it's potential.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pmIf there's a spell that deals damage based off HP in FFT it wouldn't work as the proc either since it would have to be given low WP, proc rate, and be balanced around classes that can equip swords. At that point it's inferior to Platina dagger, Moonlight, and just about every other non proc weapon in the game. Too much work even talking about the weapon. I don't see why FFMaster has to also do an asm hack for the thing. High risk low reward for Arena's meta.


Which is why this is a discussion thread. To talk about things like this. And that really IS up to FFM. If he thinks it's doable and likes the idea, then that's what he's going to do. If he doesn't? Oh well, it was just an idea.

And what I proposed was fairly balanced around (and required) a unit to have 400 HP to give it that (Attack command) damage edge over it's brethren, without making it more useful for Job-specific formulas... But HP is rarely a stat that stays static in Arena.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pmSeriously though, if Katanas get the proposed Forced 2 Hand buff someone mentioned earlier it would work. All Katanas would need a WP buff of course, but what makes it interesting is that it doesn't take away from spears. Samurais would still have innate 2Hand, it's just they wouldn't benefit from it unless they used the equip weapon support. That means 2 Hand javelins would still be more viable than a 2 range masamune.


And katanas are equal to Knight Swords? Different purposes.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pm12, 13, or even 15 WP it would still be a balanced weapon. Paladins already have southern and grand cross which already gives the range, plus they'll still have the shield slot if they're using a 1 range weapon which makes it a inferior to cross build paladins. It wouldn't take away from Knight Sword since the katana wouldn't have the W-EV or buff or status immunities knight swords get, so as a forced 2H weapon option, paladins still would benifit more from having a knight sword. Male and Female samurais have terrible PA so there's no need to worry about the weapon being over powered.


What they already have is decent. My idea here is for opening another option... And again, that's part of the point of this thread.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pmThe current Masamune is -2 SP and Always Haste making it a great weapon to use with SP altering abilities. They'll have more turns than until they're capped out and are no longer able to use the ability. For their team mates it's great since they're also more likely to benefit more than they would a regular unit. I'm the only one to abuse masamune and cheer song so far, but it could still be done a lot better. The thing is, SP altering abiltiies might not be around in the next patch making the Masamune a terrible weapon since it would keep a samurai or paladin at an effective 7 SP.

What do you's guys think about a 2 range Masamune?  Katana's don't get enough discussion so I throw this out whenever I can.


A two range katana is doable, yeah, but if my own idea for Katanas proccing their own Draw-Out goes through, Masamune could simply be a far stronger one (or more unique) since giving a unit Haste is the Repel Knife's job :P

Maybe if it could proc on the user themselves? Not sure if that's possible.

Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 09:14:00 pmI actually think it'd be best if we all stuck to discussing one thing every week, or every few days so everything can be discussed, that way everything's organized and someone (FFMaster) can navigate posts easier.

-------------------
Also Platina Dagger being broken is laughable Reks.


Limiting discussion like that would be a rule thing, and thusly a mod thing to do. Kind-of unfair, since ideas are supposed to flow and be talked about... Limiting that isn't much fun at all and kind-of kills excitement.

And glad you thought it was funny, because I was not at all serious.

Again, apologies for any satire or negativity you might have picked up from my posts. They were not intended, and my typed words merely follow my speech pattern.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 18, 2015, 11:29:26 pm
I think for in-depth discussion about particular stuff, we could organize some moment of the week (or several) to gather in a chat room. I know you guys have been doing it already over IRC but I just never know when these kind of discussions take place. So having them at set times (this could vary over time depending on availabilities) would get people like me to come more often in the chat room section.

As for the weapon idea... Having more special formula weapons is something that should be avoided. You have many abilities that don't care what your weapon formula is and bypasses it with their own, like Crosses or Kagesougi. So you could still deal good damage even at low HP and not really be penalized. This leaves proc as the only option. I don't know how many free ability slots are left, this might be another problem but assuming it's not, if the formula is done right, I'm sure it could be fair. Just as a formula suggestion for the ability that's proced: CurHP / Rnd(2...4)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 11:58:19 pm
There's an IRC for arena?
Quote from: Reks on September 18, 2015, 09:41:31 pm
And there's a thing: quirky damage formulas can be attached to specific weapons. Look at Blood Sword/Bloody Strings and Healing Staff/Murasame, and the proposed MP damaging weapons... Like you yourself wanted in the past. According to Celdia, it can be done -without- messing up the formula too much. Just requires ASMing to do, which FFM CAN do.

And katanas are equal to Knight Swords? Different purposes.


Quote
[5] ITEMS

    FISTS: PA * 9
    DAGGERS: [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP
    NINJA SWORDS: [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP
    SWORDS: PA * WP
    KNIGHT SWORDS: PA * WP
    KATANA: PA * WP
    AXES: WP * F | F = (PA/2..PA+PA/2)
    RODS: MA * WP
    STAVES: MA * WP
    FLAILS: WP * WP
    GUNS, PHYSICAL: WP * WP
    GUNS, MAGICAL: [CFa/100 * TFa/100 * Q * WP]; Q = 16 : 60% of the time; Q = 20 : 30% of the time; Q = 24 : 10% of the time; Works as a magic spell with MA = WP
    CROSSBOWS: PA * WP
    LONGBOWS: [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP
    INSTRUMENTS: MA * WP
    DICTIONARIES: [(PA + MA) / 2] * WP
    SPEARS: PA * WP
    STICKS: Max(PA,MA) * WP
    BAGS: F * WP | F = (PA/2..PA+PA/2)
    CLOTHS: PA * WP

These are damage formulas. Blood sword and my old request for a bow that dealt MP damage don't change the damage formula of their weapon class. They just have a special effect added to them no different than dealing elemental damage or 100% add status effects. Think about it, if you took away the special effects of these weapons would they deal the same damage? Yes they would. This means they don't follow a different damage formula. Your weapon wouldn't deal the same damage if you took away the effect. This makes it an entirely new type of weapon.

You are asking for a (knight)sword that deals damage depending on HP that isn't a proc weapon right? This would  require an entirely new damage formula, it would probably be similar to spellguns, but a bit more complicated since HP would vary much more than faith.

Not sure if I said this in the previous post, but this would require an entirely different weapon category which wouldn't work.

As for comparing Katanas to Knight Swords you have to if you're going to consider making Katanas force 2 Hand. Paladins would have access to both if they' keep their same weapon proficiencies. Can't reply to the comments following the above since they're not on subject to forced 2 hand katanas vs knight swords on Paladins.

If Atma Weapon, what ever it may be, makes it into the game I'd use it for sure. There's just bigger things to worry about like over-nerfed spell guns, Katar potentially becoming 2H again with the removal of SP stacking, Cursed ring getting a higher revival rate due to the potential removal of SP altering abilities, a new SP helmet with the removal of SP boosting... I'm just more into balancing what we have now before adding something potentially gamebreaking like atma weapon.

It'd be too badass to have a high HP, 4 move, status immune, evasion ignoring, tank running around dealing 300-400 damage.

Try out DomieV's paladin build from S3.
----------------

@WKW I'm not aware of any arena secret club irc. Maybe it's the regular FFH irc? I stopped going there since I only really pay attention to arena and it's usually dead anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on September 19, 2015, 01:16:31 am
Shintroy i honestly would not mind seeing a weapon like what reks states in FFTA honestly. how would the formula be messed up if the WP of the weapon shifts as health decreased. To me would it not just use the knight sword formula currently implemented making the complaint against the Atma sword reks put up kinda negated? as the only thing effected is WP. it would not fit into the formula right as it is stated then? not sure how WP would be made to shift based on how much health a unit currently has but it would bring in the idea of trying to keep a unit fully healed or it won't deal enough damage to one shot people... and the idea of innate immune to berserk would prevent 1 shotting through the attack buff berserk gives. if the weapon was balanced so that it had a weakness to counter such a high power i don't see any issues with sugesting it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 19, 2015, 04:03:13 am
Quote from: Shintroy on September 18, 2015, 11:58:19 pm
@WKW I'm not aware of any arena secret club irc. Maybe it's the regular FFH irc? I stopped going there since I only really pay attention to arena and it's usually dead anyway.


I'm assuming it takes place at the regular FFH IRC channel. But the problem is you never know when these discussions take place when the chat is dead over 90% of the time, and I don't really dare starting a conversation about it with all the non-Arena guys over there. That's why there should be some organised gatherings for balance discussion that everyone could be aware of.

Also as I've said the other night in the stream, and I'll say it here too, I support the 2 range Masamune, as well as Javelin being a thrown weapon like you've briefly suggested. As for Lancet, reworking the Lancer's skillset would be a pretty big deal which won't happen in 140, so until that happens, Lancet could be a proc from one of the spears.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 19, 2015, 09:55:10 am
@Corosar That's a good way at looking at the weapon Corosar. As a Knight Sword and on an absorb team though? It'd be a pretty bad ass weapon for Knight Sword users on Lore Absorb teams. Best combat, constantly being healed by the scholar, maybe even distribute... Sounds pretty fair that way. Counter and Meatbone Slash would become more viable against Atma Weapon users since, like you said, it's users aren't always guaranteed to be at full health or even OHKOing units.

Atma Weapon at 12-15 sounds best. I'd balance it around southern cross use and max HP damage. Paladins with nurse are likely to have over 50% health, so I'd balance the WP for southern cross for a 380-420 health unit, at a health range where they won't use nurse over southern cross which I'd aim to deal more damage than a melee attack at that range. There's a lot of depth to the weapon that way and it balances the weapon for high PA, above average health classes like Monk and Dancer. I'm probably looking into it too much. Too many competitive games.
I loaded my FF6 file yesterday and found my favorite character, Celes using the weapon. I'd definitely make a FFVI themed team the first day of 140's release. It's been a while since I removed the undefeated FFIII team, and I haven't done FFVI outside of the berserk mime, gau team which was bugged. I'd like to see the weapon if it got Knight Swords on the map.

Is there enough room to add another Knight Sword? I think there's still room to have more swords, but I'm not sure about Knight Swords.

@WKW I'm all for discussing Arena live. Set a date people can agree on and I'll be there most likely.
------------------
Katanas need more love. Forced 2 Hand buff or not, I think a fun weapon like the 2 range masamune could help that out. It'd be great if they got a WP buff on that was on par, or maybe even surpassing Knight Swords. To do that though, I think Paladins could ,and maybe even should, no longer have access to katanas and instead gain access to flails. It's been asked for on several occasions by multiple players so I'm asking for it not only as a balancing change, but as a fun request I think a other players can appreciate.
-------------------
As for Lancet and balancing the Lancer skillset, that's for a later patch. I think FFMaster should stick to what(I think) he wanted to do for 139 and balance spears. Someone else suggested changing jump's CT to use Jump over SP, but I think that could be kept in mind for the balancing of spears simply for the fact that most spears give SP.

With the possible removal of SP altering abilities and Arena having period where units will have static SP values, I could see lancers getting a boost in SP. At 9 SP, and maybe even the addition of an SP+1 helmet I think spears could stand to lose most, or maybe all SP boosts. I say most because I wouldn't want to see all lancers being balanced for jump. Maybe someone wants a 9 SP armored unit that won't use jump? Having Dragon Whisker and SP spear would add depth the class needs.

On the subject of lancer and spear's depth, let's not forget elemental spears. Why weren't they given elemental affinity in 139? Were there any in 138 outside of Holy Lance (which must have been even worse than it is now with all so many cursed ring, null holy units on a team)?  Maybe Jump could get the an elemental = weapon change? It could be looked at as a buff or a nerf.

Elemental Jump would be useless against a unit or team that absorbs or nullifies the element of the spear, where a non elemental jump with an elemental spear gives lancer, or the jump skill set to be more accurate, a decent option against an absorb unit. I don't know which one I'd be more of a fan of really. Strengthen element combined with 1.5 PA x WP jump damage formula, or 2 range elemental melee option combined with the a non element, still damaging jump. It's a coin toss really. I'm more comfortable with keeping jump at non-elemental for the sake of depth. Even though an elemental jump would potentially give non-spear users enough damage to compete with nonelemental spear jumps, I think a melee unit with a non elemental damage option would be better in the long run.

That being said.... if ranged Javelin got into arena I'm making a Diablo inspired team. Maybe give the weapon the chance of attacking twice.

Currently Lancers are 8SP 10PA 4MA for males and 8SP 8PA 6MA for females.
Javelin - 9 WP - 3 range, +1SP,  Proc Double Attack (same effect as dual cutter) 2H No 2S No
Sounds fair? What about...
Javelin - 10 WP - 3 Range , +1 SP 2H No 2S Yes/No

Didn't 138 have a knife that worked similarly?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 19, 2015, 04:19:47 pm
I like the idea of a weapon that adjusts its WP based on your HP. I really have no opinion on this as far as balance so far other than what has already been said.

Paladins with flails sounds interesting, as the flails are elemental so they could be used with grand/southern cross. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I do agree with spears getting an element, but for jump itself, I would stick with it being non-elemental. Jump is already underused already, and introducing an absorb barrier would make elemental spears less appealing. I would be okay with Lancers getting a speed buff if the jump CT was changed to be based off of the jump stat.

Also, there's a chat room? Count me in! Around the time we did the stream is fine for me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 19, 2015, 04:50:11 pm
Quote from: dw6561 on September 19, 2015, 04:19:47 pm
I like the idea of a weapon that adjusts its WP based on your HP. I really have no opinion on this as far as balance so far other than what has already been said.

Paladins with flails sounds interesting, as the flails are elemental so they could be used with grand/southern cross. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I do agree with spears getting an element, but for jump itself, I would stick with it being non-elemental. Jump is already underused already, and introducing an absorb barrier would make elemental spears less appealing. I would be okay with Lancers getting a speed buff if the jump CT was changed to be based off of the jump stat.

Also, there's a chat room? Count me in! Around the time we did the stream is fine for me.


Actually, Arena is very rarely ever discussed in the IRC, and if even then it's only a few passing comments either made by myself or another who frequents the Arena subforum.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on September 20, 2015, 07:43:14 pm
I believe I've uncovered another glitch with mimes and white magic as secondary, mp is not depleting as far as I can tell. I've been toying around with MimesMania some more, I threw the setup below against Headhunters and the mime was spamming raises/raise 2 the whole mage with out losing mp. There was also only like 1 round of carbunkles.


Mimerva
female
taurus
40
70
mime
draw out
counter magic
overwhelm


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

murasame, heaven's cloud, muramasa, kikuichimonji, masamune

MimesAlot
female
taurus
40
70
mime
white magic
counter magic
short charge


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

cure, cure 2, cure 4, raise, raise 2, wall, esuna

Mandy
female
taurus
40
70
scholar
draw out
distribute
overwhelm

faith rod

holy miter
earth clothes
defense ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
murasame, heaven's cloud, kikuichimnoji, masamune



Mindy
female
capricorn
40
70
scholar
summon magic
distribute
short charge

faith rod

holy miter
santa outfit
magic ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
moogle, shiva, ramuh, ifrit, leviathan, titan, fairy, carbunkle

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on September 20, 2015, 07:52:48 pm
Quote from: Heroebal on September 20, 2015, 07:43:14 pm
I believe I've uncovered another glitch with mimes and white magic as secondary, mp is not depleting as far as I can tell. I've been toying around with MimesMania some more, I threw the setup below against Headhunters and the mime was spamming raises/raise 2 the whole mage with out losing mp. There was also only like 1 round of carbunkles.


Mimerva
female
taurus
40
70
mime
draw out
counter magic
overwhelm


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

murasame, heaven's cloud, muramasa, kikuichimonji, masamune

MimesAlot
female
taurus
40
70
mime
white magic
counter magic
short charge


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

cure, cure 2, cure 4, raise, raise 2, wall, esuna

Mandy
female
taurus
40
70
scholar
draw out
distribute
overwhelm

faith rod

holy miter
earth clothes
defense ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
murasame, heaven's cloud, kikuichimnoji, masamune



Mindy
female
capricorn
40
70
scholar
summon magic
distribute
short charge

faith rod

holy miter
santa outfit
magic ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
moogle, shiva, ramuh, ifrit, leviathan, titan, fairy, carbunkle



Yes, I believe there is a glitch/wonderful feature where mimes will not use MP no matter what the skill is.  Quickening, Focus/Accumulate, spellcasting.  Mimes don't use MP.  I wouldn't call it a glitch.  ;)  :more:
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 20, 2015, 08:29:12 pm
Check out the Damned's post in this thread Heroebal. http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=7896.0 There's a lot more mime bugs you may want to know about like giving your mime MP moves makes its teammate never EVER use some abilities, or the more commonly known weapon equip bug where Mimes with equip weapon give other mimes their weapon and vice versa to the point where either all mimes have the weapon or everyone is unequipped.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on September 20, 2015, 10:46:29 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on September 20, 2015, 08:29:12 pm
Check out the Damned's post in this thread Heroebal. http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=7896.0 There's a lot more mime bugs you may want to know about like giving your mime MP moves makes its teammate never EVER use some abilities, or the more commonly known weapon equip bug where Mimes with equip weapon give other mimes their weapon and vice versa to the point where either all mimes have the weapon or everyone is unequipped.


nice to know that, if white magic/other magics are legit ok for use here in Arena I might try some different set ups with it. It looks like mimes can be berserked and still mime... I may have to tinker with that at some point.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 21, 2015, 11:41:50 am
Quote from: Heroebal on September 20, 2015, 10:46:29 pm
nice to know that, if white magic/other magics are legit ok for use here in Arena I might try some different set ups with it. It looks like mimes can be berserked and still mime... I may have to tinker with that at some point.


Berserk mime has the worst bug out of all arena bugs I know of. It doesnt always happen, but when a berserked mime mimics theres a chance they will equip the ability they mimic. It sounds great, but it's actually only the ability graphic meaning they cant targt or harm anyone until they mimic a regular attack and reequip.

Check out my berserk mime teams The Veldt and North Star on youtube to see for yourself. I believe its rare when the mime has a non equip support including two hands and two swords. When you have any of the above though, the mime is almost guaranteed to equip an ability. The mime will still mimic abilities, but unless they unequip, they're harmless wben using attack.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 24, 2015, 04:38:23 am
Mime is really iffy to mess with due to these glitches/bugs, that is why most go the safer route and stick to instant secondary attacks, and not CT-based secondaries like White Magic. However, Cure, Dia and Wall work fine due to 0 CT. For everything else, prioritize quicker spells, less chance of your own allies getting turns before the spell resolves. Setup your other units so that their turn doesn't come up soon after the Mime's and you may even be able to land slower spells effectively. It's really just a matter of careful planning. I always look forward to see more mage Mimes.

---

... I really don't want to invade the main FFH channel and I don't know how to create a different IRC room. In fact I can't even use IRC, only Mibbit. I'll think of a solution later on. Until then, I was thinking maybe every 1.5 - 2 weeks we have a live chat, that way we don't run out of discussion too quickly. Chat would have to be logged of course, preferably by more than one person just to be sure

As for what we would be talking about, to begin it should be subjects that we can't really get consensus on or that just require an "I am OK with this". What quickly comes to mind:

- Cloths/Veils. Things have been proposed all over the place but it never seems to get anywhere.

- Removal of speed buffs. From what I've seen it seems to be agreed on but what can't reach consensus is the consequences of these changes. Slow Dance and Cheer Song would need a new purpose, for instance, which might end up changing other songs/dances like dominos.

- Elemental Shields. The recurring suggestion is to simply take out weaknesses. Would that really solve things? It still feels unclear to me, between this and the new shield proposals I have seen, overall, shields just need to be discussed in depth.

- Some abilities moving to other skillsets or getting removed. This is a bit more vague but I would like to reach consensus on most of these as well.

If you think of more feel free to add.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Jumza on September 24, 2015, 07:59:21 am
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on September 24, 2015, 04:38:23 am
... I really don't want to invade the main FFH channel


I don't think anyone would mind, in fact it could probably use the activity. Go for it :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 25, 2015, 04:48:26 am
Some thoughts before bed.

Combine Poison with Bio - effectively guaranteed poison on top of relatively minor damage
Perhaps giving some White Magic™ buffs (namely Protect and Shell. First level, that is) a small chance to Regen as well? 25-33%
Remove Slow from Nameless Dance and give it Death Sentence: mostly to give it actual appeal. Not that it'd be any more overpowered than say, Death Sentence the Talk Skill or Secret Fist, which some teams already whore out. It'd also balance out with Nameless Song, which gives Reraise.
Either raise Ultima the spell's Range by 1, or decrease it's CT by 1
Shield Equivalent of the Tactician's Blade, low Evade
Potential weapon/shield/accessory that raises HP/MP by 10% at the cost of having no other benefit (probably useless but by this point it's something?)
New Potion bag that breaks a randomly determined amount of potions (2-4) on the target/victim upon Attack[/obvious joke]
Low-WP, low ranged Gun ('Duel'ing pistols?) capable of being used with 2 Swords[/obvious joke]

Older ideas:
Katanas proccing their respective Draw Out: Knights Paladins lose access to Katanas and gain Knives[/sarcasm?]
Demi-Gun
Medi-Gun (potion-gun?)
Dark element sword?
Shields getting minor status protection/more unique shields IE Ensanguined Shield

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on September 25, 2015, 11:55:27 am
Bio already adds poison, even though it's not at 100% like Kiyomori. At the moment, the AI will only use poison to cancel out regen, if there are no other offensive options and their the CT allows it, or if they're able to target more units than their other spells.
Someone pointed out that giving abilities a chance to add regen messes with the AI. Life song already has these problems I wouldn't want to see protect users being bugged the same way. Shell is fine as is as well. It can be use flagged by lore spells just like heretic and solution. My old mime team "Caster Shell" used shell in this way to have a mime tank lore combined with white robe. Protect is only used when a unit is near critical health (Iron Will, Wall).
I'd be more open to a reaction ability that adds protect, shell or maybe wall. There are reactions like this in other mods so it wouldn't take much work to add to arena.
I also suggested Death Sentence to nameless dance to balance out the performances. Also there hasn't been any successful teams in 139 using mainly death sentence. I can't wait for the return of death sentence teams when the genji shield and gld armor status immunities are fixed. Punch Art and Talk Skill mime will become an even stronger.
I suggested an armor equivalent of the green beret a while back actually. I thought of a shield option too, but thought it would be obsolete since daggers already give move. Lancer, Samurai, and even Paladin which already has access to the T.Blade, deserve itmore since none of them have dagger options, rely heavily on their accessory slot which usually rules out movement.
10% to HP and MP sounds completely useless on armor. On a shield, accessory, or weapon though it sounds great. I'd suggest it to P Bag if it doesn't get poison immunity like others including me suggest.
I'd like a dual wielding range weapon jokes aside. My 3 range javelin suggestions included a dual wieldable verison, but I'd like like a gun or crossbow too. If bowgun doesn't get a visual effect we can see I'd like to see some dual bow gun squire, ninja, and archer builds.

Still more of a fan of Katanas getting a WP buff, but forcing 2 hands. Flails over knives for paladins too. Knives have move+1 and a damage formula that includes speed. It wouldn't be great, or that fair if paladins got this. Especially if there's a movement increasing piece of armor added.
Demi Gun and a healing gun. 33% of max hp damage and a gun that couldn't do any damage outside of PA/MA*WP abilities... I like both concepts since they fit gun's pattern of dealing a set amount of damage. Healing Gun would have to deal WP*WP... Easy enough to balance. 10-12 WP with some sort of status immunity or attribute maybe.
Demi gun's a special case. Demi deals damage based off a unit's max amount of HP making it neither fit the regular gun's damage forumla or spellgun's. It wouldn't be influenced by faith either since there's no need. Demi would hit 100% of the time and Demi already deals a set amount of damage. I figure the only way to balance the gun would be to give it extremely low WP, 4-6 similar to bags, and give it the spell gun's random damage.
Q = 25% damage 60% of the time, 33% 30% of the time, and 50% 10% of the time seems balanced. Maybe just giving it 33 and 50% sounds better.
One handed paired with the low WP also sounds good. Spellguns getting back either 1 hand or their range has been talked about before. I'm more in favor of the demi gun being one handed with 6 range since pairing it with low WP and it dealing non elemental damage would give demi gun units versatility equal to romanda gun.

There was a post by.... WKW I believe that listed all options for each element. Dark was definitely low on the list. Koutetsu would get a buff if katanas got the forced 2 hand and WP increase. Still though, even with that I'd like to see more options for the kaiser shield. Air Knife, tons, and Ice Brand are the shield's main uses. MA weapons and spears are need some attention. I'd be down to discuss addtions for poles and other unused weapons than the ever popular swords and such.

Still a fan of shields getting status immunty. The absorb/weakness thing they have going for them now makes most of them pretty bad for most teams due to the oil change of 139. the earth, lightning, holy and dark shields could be redone without anyone missing this version for sure. Ensanguined shield halved fire ice and lightning right in FFT right? What about giving it holy and dark instead to match robes?. Shields having traits of clothes, robes, and armor sounds like the direction they're headednow.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 25, 2015, 01:14:52 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on September 25, 2015, 11:55:27 amStill a fan of shields getting status immunty. The absorb/weakness thing they have going for them now makes most of them pretty bad for most teams due to the oil change of 139. the earth, lightning, holy and dark shields could be redone without anyone missing this version for sure. Ensanguined shield halved fire ice and lightning right in FFT right? What about giving it holy and dark instead to match robes?. Shields having traits of clothes, robes, and armor sounds like the direction they're headednow.


No, the Ensanguined Shield I was referring to is FFXII's.

And Gaig proposed the idea as well.

Perma Protect and/or shell, but perma Poison (maybe something else, too)and immunity to Regen.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 25, 2015, 01:22:05 pm
The only use I can see with this shield is a unit with high MA + HP/MP using balance. Perhaps cursed ring users can benefit too although that in it of itself is a very possible risk of being out of commission for the duration of the battle. Paladins, Geomancers or Samurais with balance comes to mind
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 25, 2015, 01:38:49 pm
Quote from: Barren on September 25, 2015, 01:22:05 pm
The only use I can see with this shield is a unit with high MA + HP/MP using balance. Perhaps cursed ring users can benefit too although that in it of itself is a very possible risk of being out of commission for the duration of the battle. Paladins, Geomancers or Samurais with balance comes to mind
Attack UP Blood Sword?

Would work with Berserk pretty well.

Yeah, it's pretty limiting. Though a Shield that does inflict some form of status on the user in return for more potent evasion/more powerful buff seems pretty neat.

A large part of why I keep proposing somewhat odd things is because I like to keep ideas going and largely because it's just fun

Half of the time I'm not even wholly serious and just wanna see what others think about the ideas.

So if something I post is a bit strange to you all, just smile and wave and/or amuse the idea long enough to shoot it in the face because it's probably me being weird again.


Edit: Also because I'm a fan of more than one thing changing at a time before something can be called a patch. Yeah, the metagame should shift away from speed come 1.4, but it never hurts to look at other stuff and freshen it up a bit either.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 26, 2015, 06:10:15 am
Apart from Balance and Blood Sword, Ensanguined Shield could also be used with Moonlight.

If we're going to go into ASM with Atma Weapon, one ASM hack I would really love to see is the implementation of MP Regen.  Putting MP regen on a bag or adding it to White Magic Regenerator would be fantastic for casters.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on September 26, 2015, 07:25:44 am
I think that C Bag would be perfect then for MP Regen, since it already adds 2 MA
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 26, 2015, 05:15:24 pm
The concept of MP regen sounds fascinating. I don't really see regenerator being used much (which couln't possibly have anything to do with the masamune skill, not at all), so there's an incentive to add it there. C Bag would also be a good choice as well. But what do we do about move-MP up then? Or were we thinking of making it an entirely new status?

And what about the possibility of brave analogs of faith and innocent? I think this would be cool, although I don't know exactly how the priorities would work out seeing as the AI already needs to be coaxed into using faith and innocent.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on September 29, 2015, 03:38:41 am
I would put MP Regen on P Bag, myself.  If we put it on C Bag, then C Bag would become the go-to weapon for every caster under the sun.

MP Regen would be a new status effect.  Move-MP UP would remain as-is.

I am cool with Brave equivalents of Faith and Innocent.  As an application, setting one's Brave to 100 could be used to punish teams that eschew physical attacks.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 29, 2015, 05:54:45 am
Are Night Killer and Hunting Bow supposed to be 9 WP? It shows 10 in the guide. My Archer refuses to go for regular attacks with these. But I don't know for sure, I haven't tried a lot of combinations and I don't know if 10 WP would change much in my case.

There should be some AoE method of cancelling Stop or some other thing to prevent it. In fact I think it's the only negative status that can't be AoE cancelled.

New statuses
For Brave statuses, names could be Sadness and Fury. Maybe Berserk's formula could be modified to set your Brave to 100 instead of just increasing attack power by 50%. The 'Lose all evasion' thing could go as well since you'd already take more damage from physical attacks. As for Sadness, really not sure what to replace since Chicken messes with the AI. I'm not sure what this really means though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 29, 2015, 11:29:56 am
I have a Night Killer in one of my draft teams, but I haven't seen any regular attacks either. Huh.

As for stop, we could add cancel: stop to Esuna or Stigma Magic in place of another status. Though I would be weary of this since Heal's ability to cure stop and oil makes it unique from those other moves.

For Sadness, we could replace Stop. Or Treasure. :lol:

Joking aside, you're right. Chicken couldn't be used too well. I would suggest Dark/Evil Looking but trying to make that status look good is rather difficult, or so I've heard. I'm assuming with MP Regen you mean to replace wall, so that's a no-go. If only we knew how to crack the AI, the only things I know how to crack are bad jokes and ethane.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on September 29, 2015, 12:20:00 pm
Even if for thematic purposes, I could suggest Oil become Curse, like in CCP2.

Makes more sense given that everything elemental does double damage (with exception, ofc)




Also perhaps changing one of the Squire's current equipment pools from Books to Poles? If Samurai are gonna become more historically accurate, then technically Squires could too, since one of their training weapons were quarterstaffs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on September 30, 2015, 01:20:38 am
I'll try a quick poll. I've gathered a bunch of different ideas for Slow Dance / Cheer Song and I'd to see what option is prefered. It might be a good way to see what people think about something in the future but for now it's just something I made for fun.

Assuming speed alterations are removed, What happens to Slow Dance / Cheer Song? (Click here for Poll) (http://strawpoll.me/5616440)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 30, 2015, 05:37:29 pm
Quote from: dw6561 on September 29, 2015, 11:29:56 am
I have a Night Killer in one of my draft teams, but I haven't seen any regular attacks either. Huh.

As for stop, we could add cancel: stop to Esuna or Stigma Magic in place of another status. Though I would be weary of this since Heal's ability to cure stop and oil makes it unique from those other moves.

For Sadness, we could replace Stop. Or Treasure. :lol:

Joking aside, you're right. Chicken couldn't be used too well. I would suggest Dark/Evil Looking but trying to make that status look good is rather difficult, or so I've heard. I'm assuming with MP Regen you mean to replace wall, so that's a no-go. If only we knew how to crack the AI, the only things I know how to crack are bad jokes and ethane.


For a status "look," confusion is still out there. IMO, this would actually work well with a sadness status to go for what it would look like.

Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.

My ultimate suggestion would be this for the songs/dances and status.

Add MP Regen to the Regen status. Add MP Poison to Poison status.

Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%

Buff Life Song's Base HP restoration by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Regen

Buff Wiznaibus' Base HP damage by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Poison

Allow Cheer Song to Add: Haste AND Regen 50% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Allow Slow Dance to Add: Slow AND Poison 40% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Buff Angel Song Base restoration by 3 MP

Buff Witch Hunt Base damage by 3 MP

Buff 108 Gems to Immune: Poison, Oil

Change C Bag: Immune: Stop, Innocent, Poison +1 MA

Change FS Bag: Immune: Sadness (If it is going to change, if not, then Immune: Faith), Petrify, Crystal +1 PA
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on September 30, 2015, 06:59:02 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on September 30, 2015, 05:37:29 pm
For a status "look," confusion is still out there. IMO, this would actually work well with a sadness status to go for what it would look like.

Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.

My ultimate suggestion would be this for the songs/dances and status.

Add MP Regen to the Regen status. Add MP Poison to Poison status.

Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%

Buff Life Song's Base HP restoration by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Regen

Buff Wiznaibus' Base HP damage by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Poison

Allow Cheer Song to Add: Haste AND Regen 50% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Allow Slow Dance to Add: Slow AND Poison 40% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Buff Angel Song Base restoration by 3 MP

Buff Witch Hunt Base damage by 3 MP

Buff 108 Gems to Immune: Poison, Oil

Change C Bag: Immune: Stop, Innocent, Poison +1 MA

Change FS Bag: Immune: Sadness (If it is going to change, if not, then Immune: Faith), Petrify, Crystal +1 PA



I would be okay with both MP regen being an entirely new status or it being merged with HP Regen and putting MP depletion on poison. I'm actually leaning more towards the latter though, because it makes poison a more viable status and another counter for Move-MP Up.

I think I know where you are coming from with nerfing Masamune, and I can see why slow dance might need to have a lesser accuracy than cheer song. I definitely agree that the bags should get a stat nerf if they get status immunities too. I don't really like the crystal immunity on FS Bag though. Sure, units with FS Bag wouldn't get right back up after three turns, but what I'm really concerned about is using two cursed rings and two FS bags to make your entire team immune to crystal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on September 30, 2015, 07:22:12 pm
(I always think of that kid's show Arthur whenever I see your screen name, dw6561, ha ha.)

I'm not 100% on Immune: Crystal. It's just an idea. We could always replace that with another status immunity, too if people like that.

I don't think you were around when we had immortal teams, but we've already somewhat experienced the situation you've brought up when we had them. It doesn't give either side a significant advantage usually, but I definitely understand your reservation and wouldn't mind seeing another suggestion if people like changing the bags like that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 01, 2015, 05:55:33 am
Quote from: silentkaster on September 30, 2015, 05:37:29 pm
Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.


I would prefer to keep MP Regen separate from Regen and have the Regen skill add both statuses.  Otherwise Masamune would get even stronger.

And concerning Masamune:

Quote from: silentkaster on September 30, 2015, 05:37:29 pm
Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%


Masamune was like this a long time ago.  In those times, the AI would continually use Masamune until Haste was applied, resulting in wasted turns.  Accordingly, I cannot get behind this proposal.

Also, as mentioned several pages ago, I am not in favour of items that add Crystal immunity since they goes against the proven style of Arena.  Cursed Ring is one of those weird exceptions, since it carries the huge drawback of exposing its wearer to healing skills.

I am fine with the Song/Dance and 108 Gems changes, and don't yet have an opinion of the bag changes.

Edit: A quick summary of the recent status discussions:
MP Regen: Restores 1/8 of max MP per turn
MP Poison: Drains 1/8 of max MP per turn
Fury: Sets Fury to 100
Sadness: Sets Fury to 0

Obsolete status effects:
Bloodsuck, Confusion, Invite, Evil Looking, Chicken, Wall
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 01, 2015, 11:17:32 am
I think most of us can agree that Masamune is already an excellent skill, and some may even say overpowered. But this is why it needs a nerf.

Is there a way to Add: Haste and then 50% of the time, Proc Regen? That way, the AI wouldn't continue to re-use Masamune over and over to get Haste. The AI would know that Regen is not guaranteed and not always go for it.

I strongly disagree with making a separate status for "MP Regen" and "MP Poison," as this would be a lot of work, require new palettes to be introduced, and would be confusing with what we already have. For example, in this scenario, it's possible to have MP Regen and Poison at the same time...but what would the commanding color be? It's already hard to keep track of when a unit is Berserked and Poisoned, or undead but has Regen or Transparent, but a unit could literally have five of these color changing statuses at a time (Berserk, Transparent, Undead, Regen and Poison).

Second, Equipment and skills would have to change and likely change a lot. We could add a few items in that are currently unused (for example, Leather Hat and Leather Vest) to have Always: MP Regen or something like that, but then an ability (Probably several) would also have to change it. Would MP Poison be able to be cured by Esuna? Heal? Stigma Magic? Would there be an extra ability added to Summon Magic or White Magic (Or another skillset) to just cast MP Regen? Also, we have to make new and/or change abilities to Add/Proc MP Poison.

Finally, I don't think that it's a valid reason not to change a status because an ability is arguably OP. It's better to change the ability itself. In addition to what I mentioned above, Masamune could be changed in other ways as well...like have it only be self affecting, give it a CT of 1, or remove Regen from it entirely and give it something like Add: Haste/Transparent or Add: Haste/Float. (Admittedly if adding MP to the Regen status, Nurse would also have to change, perhaps to give only 25% HP or something since merely nerfing its MP cost would not do much.)

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 01, 2015, 04:34:38 pm
Just came by to say changing kiyomori and masamune back to only adding one status effect is taking steps back. We've been over this years ago with 1.3's AI tournaments. Masamune and Kiyomori both went through a lot to get to where they are now. Adding CT to a draw out is insane. The ability isn't overpowered so why change it? I'd be more concerned with the MA and PA*7 draw out abilities. Would buffing them to *8 make them OP? Draw out barely has any place on an absorb team because of it's low power and the unit having to be in close range to use the ability.

I loved MP regeneration being added to regen and wouldn't mind seeing it in arena. The main reason it would buff masamune and nurse is because they're the only abilities the AI use correctly. The AI is fickle with mp recovery. They'll use carbuncle correctly, but not Ether. Will it be the same with MP regen? Who knows. If MP regen were to become it's own buff and debuff I'd like to see them on spell and life absorb. Change the formula to be based off of MA instead of percentage and make them give the user regen and mp regen.

Don't mind me. I'm just more for fixing abilities that screw up the AI more than I am adding abilities in the game that'll only make the AI act even worse and probably go unused. 140's going to be huge with the return of death sentence, the possible removal of SP altering, and a overhaul of spears.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 01, 2015, 05:44:12 pm
I know what you mean by taking steps back, but the fact is if we add MP to Regen, Masamune would become overpowered. Add Masamune to a caster unit (which, incidentally, Draw Out is a great skill set to have on a caster anyway) and what do you have? A caster that doesn't have to worry about MP, who has good magic, possible very strong draw outs, and HP restoration to boot which is instant and has an (admittedly small) AOE.

It is not standard to give it a CT, but that at least cuts the instant benefit that someone gets from Masamune, and was just an idea thrown about. There are other ways to change Masamune to be more balanced if MP gets added to Regen.

For the record, as I mentioned earlier, while I'd like to see MP restoration added to Regen, if this isn't acceptable, I'd rather there be no MP Regen in the game than making it a separate status. I feel like it'll just be confusing and require a lot of abilities and equipment to undergo huge changes which doesn't seem necessary.

Spell and Life Absorb wouldn't work. You already have the spell, "Regen" in White Magic, so there is no need for a single target spell to cast Regen that costs MP. While you could have "MP Poison" be spell absorb, the point of casting this spell to begin with is that this is a spell the AI tends to use well. It will sap MP from a target when it is low (which, admittedly, with the set ups we have isn't often, so the reason we don't see it more is because people simply don't want to waste the JP when they add Move-MP UP or some other MP restoration which is innate to Oracle anyway). But when they cast MP Poison on the target, the caster gets no benefit in that case. This couldn't be like a Bizen Boat where it will mid-charge...it wouldn't affect the caster until they take their next turn. It could wear on them over time, but again, we need a way to cure it. Plus, a spell that just casts MP Poison would probably need to have an AOE to have any appeal. Likewise, a support spell like MP Regen would be pretty out of place in the Oracle skill set, a skill set which literally only has offensive magic (not to mention that Oracles already have a reaction and a movement skill that recovers MP).

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 01, 2015, 07:28:51 pm
Speaking of Regen. I hope FFMaster doesn't overlook the need for a poison immune accessory in 140. What was the reasoning behind removing it from 108 gems?

I hope spell guns go back to being 6 range, but still stay forced 2 hands.

Demi only gets a 1% accuracy or damage boost from dark strengthening gear. Could we get a buff for that? Also would Demi gun be dark element? If so then Golden Hairpin won't only be used for Silver Bow Archers.

Oracle getting a buff would definitely be out of place. No idea how to buff the absorb spells outside of making them follow the MA*x formula most spells follow. I mean why is it based of the user's max hp? Oracles don't have high HP and even a max HP paladin isn't breaking 150 damage with the spell.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 01, 2015, 11:00:27 pm
I was thinking that the magic guns get a range of 5. 6 is where people loved using it but 4 makes it (to me anyways) discouraging. By changing the magic guns to 5 range (and stone gun too) it'd be at least tolerable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 01, 2015, 11:03:35 pm
MP Regen/MP Poison are close to Angel Song/Witch Hunt in nature (akin to Life Song/Wiznaibus with Regen/Poison). That's where I'd place these new status to start. It's likely that someone using MP Regen will have other buffs (usually Haste), so Dispel Magic and Refute would probably work well to cancel it, as well as Dispel proc weapons and possibly a weapon that procs MP Poison (Mage Masher?). Dealing with MP Poison might be a little trickier but depending on what status it replaces, I believe the AI will assume it's still the old status and try to cancel it. There would most likely be armor or accessories that prevent MP Poison as well (ex: C Bag could be used exclusively for MP Regen/cancel MP Poison and lose its +2 MA). I suggest both to run for 48 CT before they naturally wear off.

For MA UP/Strengthen having a greater influence on Hit% abilities like Demi, I thought of having a change to the hit formula so it's more dependant on MA. Hit_F((MA*Y)+X)%, where Y could be 2 or 3 depending on the ability since some classes have naturally lower MA than others. Of course that would mean the static X value would be significantly reduced for most abilities as well.

Side question: Is Hawk's Eye supposed to bypass Darkness? It's getting a bit irritating trying to counter this ability in test battles.

Edit: Poll result (Slow Dance/Cheer Song)
1. Add: Slow / Add: Haste = 3 votes (50%)
2. Rnd: Slow-Darkness / Rnd: Haste-Transparent = 2 votes (33%)
3. Rnd: Darkness-Innocent / Rnd: Transparent-Faith = 1 vote (17%)

Of course that doesn't mean a lot with these amount of voters, but again it was just for fun and curiosity
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on October 02, 2015, 12:50:58 am
Quote from: silentkaster on September 30, 2015, 05:37:29 pm
For a status "look," confusion is still out there. IMO, this would actually work well with a sadness status to go for what it would look like.

Why can't we add MP Regen to regular Regen as it is in JOT5? In turn, we could add MP damage to the Poison status.

My ultimate suggestion would be this for the songs/dances and status.

Add MP Regen to the Regen status. Add MP Poison to Poison status.

Nerf Masamune to Add: Haste OR Regen (random) 100%

Buff Life Song's Base HP restoration by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Regen

Buff Wiznaibus' Base HP damage by 5 HP but do not allow it to Add: Poison

Allow Cheer Song to Add: Haste AND Regen 50% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Allow Slow Dance to Add: Slow AND Poison 40% chance to hit Change CT: 7

Buff Angel Song Base restoration by 3 MP

Buff Witch Hunt Base damage by 3 MP

Buff 108 Gems to Immune: Poison, Oil

Change C Bag: Immune: Stop, Innocent, Poison +1 MA

Change FS Bag: Immune: Sadness (If it is going to change, if not, then Immune: Faith), Petrify, Crystal +1 PA


MP poison sounds weird to me.. honestly i go Manaleak but ehh.. personal opinion.. i am not one to come up with naming conventions... on the subject of that MP-regen in my oppinion would be better Manawell or Manafill? i don't know just throwing MP onto a name does not sound right to me.. then again i like coming up with words
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 02, 2015, 01:41:44 am
Quote from: Shintroy on October 01, 2015, 04:34:38 pmThe AI is fickle with mp recovery. They'll use carbuncle correctly, but not Ether.


Just to weigh in, the AI sucks at using Carbunkle proactively, too.  It only casts Carbunkle if it has nothing else to do.

Quote from: silentkaster on October 01, 2015, 05:44:12 pm
I know what you mean by taking steps back, but the fact is if we add MP to Regen, Masamune would become overpowered. Add Masamune to a caster unit (which, incidentally, Draw Out is a great skill set to have on a caster anyway) and what do you have? A caster that doesn't have to worry about MP, who has good magic, possible very strong draw outs, and HP restoration to boot which is instant and has an (admittedly small) AOE.


Yes.  If Regen adds MP regen as well, then I second the motion that Masamune should change.  Of your suggestions, I like Add: Haste + Transparent the most.

Quote from: Shintroy on October 01, 2015, 07:28:51 pmNo idea how to buff the absorb spells outside of making them follow the MA*x formula most spells follow. I mean why is it based of the user's max hp?


I am fine with this.

Quote from: Corosar on October 02, 2015, 12:50:58 am
MP poison sounds weird to me.. honestly i go Manaleak but ehh.. personal opinion.. i am not one to come up with naming conventions... on the subject of that MP-regen in my oppinion would be better Manawell or Manafill? i don't know just throwing MP onto a name does not sound right to me.. then again i like coming up with words


I think the names we're throwing around right now are temporary.  If they are actually implemented, it is probably best to come up with better names as you say.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 02, 2015, 08:16:31 am
Quote from: Gaignun on October 02, 2015, 01:41:44 am
Yes.  If Regen adds MP regen as well, then I second the motion that Masamune should change.  Of your suggestions, I like Add: Haste + Transparent the most.


I like the idea of Haste + Transparent too. This way, Masamune still remains unique compared to the other ways to add haste, and we could have a proactive source of transparent.

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on October 01, 2015, 11:03:35 pm
Edit: Poll result (Slow Dance/Cheer Song)
1. Add: Slow / Add: Haste = 3 votes (50%)
2. Rnd: Slow-Darkness / Rnd: Haste-Transparent = 2 votes (33%)
3. Rnd: Darkness-Innocent / Rnd: Transparent-Faith = 1 vote (17%)

Of course that doesn't mean a lot with these amount of voters, but again it was just for fun and curiosity



I feel lonely. I seemed to have this aversion to haste/slow being inflicted by songs/dances, but I didn't want to see two perfectly good opportunities for a new skill to be thrown in a fire. It might not be so bad though if they are the only statuses inflicted though now that I think about it.


Could we possibly do Rnd: slow-innocent / Rnd: haste-faith? Should have suggested it earlier. If we do just haste/slow, what about putting Faith/Innocent on nameless song/dance?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 02, 2015, 12:41:40 pm
It doesn't take much to mess up the AI's way of "thinking".  Keeping the skills simple encourages it to make some relatively-decent plays, especially in regards to CT management.  For the MP Regen it work, it would need to accompany a high-priority status such as Defending or Haste, or be attached to an item or reaction.  As for the MP Poison, it would need to be handled like how Oil is.

I agree with the changes to Dance/Sing, especially since I've been messing around with the former.  Slow Dance and Wiznaibus are pure, unadulterated evil, especially when mimes are mimicking them.  If you need some proof, fight a match against my Episode 2 team.  I really like Cheer Song and Slow Dance adding Haste/Regen and Slow/Poison.

I agree with that 108 Gems buff, but not so much the bags.  If the bags are to grant immunities, I don't think that they should also grant stat buffs, as well.  Making a tanky unit invulnerable to pretty much every negative status would be overpowered.  Like Gaignun said, giving a team the opportunity to have full Crystal immunity is too much, especially if those FS Bag users have Dragon Spirit/Reraise.


EDIT: Also, some things in regards to balancing mimes: I think they should lose access to headbands and the secondary skillset.  The Chakra Band is the cream of the crop, and since it was balanced with the idea that monks were the only ones able to wear it, allowing mimes to use it is pretty cheap.  I know it leaves mimes with relatively-low HP, but then there's the Maximillian.  As for the secondary, I feel that it gives the mimes too many opportunities to turn the tide of the battle for their team, especially if they're using a support skillset like Item or White Magic, or a neutral skillset like Talk Skill or even Draw Out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 02, 2015, 02:12:53 pm
Mime's secondary options
squire - Partially
Chemist - Fully
Paladin - No
Archer - Mostly
Monk - Fully
Priest - Very limited
Wizard - No
Time Mage - No
Summoner - No
Thief - Partially
Mediator - Fully
Oracle - No
Geomancer - Fully
Lancer - No
samurai - Fully
Ninja - Partially + MP
Scholar - No
Performer - No

There is absolutely no reason to remove mime's ability to equip a secondary. The class is limited enough as is. Terrible stats, no access to weapons, multiple equip bugs, multiple game breaking bugs, can limit other teammates if abilities MP, mimic interupts charging, etc. It's too early to for anyone to consider changing mime as drastically as you're recommending.

..Remove headband access? Why? Mimes used to have an innate ribbon ability up until 139 and Chakra band is no wear near as good as ribbon.

Come on. We can't even count good mime teams on one hand yet. It'll get even worse for mime if SP altering is removed. If anything buff mime to 9 SP so they'll at least be viable if SP altering is removed.

------------

What about a base 75% dispel and esuna performance ability? The AI will be able to use this correctly.

Quote from: Gaignun on October 02, 2015, 01:41:44 am
Just to weigh in, the AI sucks at using Carbunkle proactively, too.  It only casts Carbunkle if it has nothing else to do.


For the AI to use carbunkle proactively, it has to be out of range of it's melee and low MP options. It helps to have a good frontline unit to draw attention away from the caster. It's a spell so it's going to be used before move. If the caster has any threat at all it'll just move in closer for a melee attack instead of using carbunkle and staying put. Having an instant backline unit like Chiri bot, Southern/Grand Cross Archer, or even a ton ninja helps even more. I've been successful with move-1 on a carbuncle/mp restore unit in the past using both a front and backline job.
------------------

Believe in FFMaster
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 02, 2015, 03:02:41 pm
As time goes on and more people make mime teams, I think that there will at least be a couple of teams that support my argument for the removal of the secondary skillset.  Of course, the potency of the secondary skillset is dependant on the mimics done by the mime.  Despite how "limited" secondaries can be to the mime, the skills that do work properly work very well, especially those from Talk Skill.  Also, Cover Fire, lol.  Let's not forget about Punch Art: give a Mime it and they're basically a Monk with less PA (which can be made-up for through PA Save/Accumulate/Battle Song/whatever) and the ability to mimic.  Item is silly, especially when the mime decides to throw items despite not having Throw Item as their support.  I know that this isn't something to be relied upon, but I think that it would suck pretty hard to lose because of an enemy mime (or mimes) being able to do this.

I'm against headbands solely due to Chakra Band.  Even if it's not as good as their innate immunities they had before, there's very rarely a reason for a mime to use any other piece of headgear, and that's what concerns me the most.  Like you said, things are still pretty early, but really... Chakra Band >>>>>>> every other piece of headgear for the mime.  Sure, the mime could equip helmets for more HP, but all of those deadly statuses the Chakra Band protects against still makes it much better.  If monks could wear other headgear, I'm pretty sure that the mass majority of them would still use the Chakra Band, even if their base stats took a hit because of wider access.

Maybe I'm not knowledgable enough to give input on balancing Arena, and maybe I'm simply in the minority (or all in my lonesome), but these are just some things that I felt like mentioning.  Take what I say with a grain of salt.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 02, 2015, 03:24:47 pm
Do you know how bad mime was in AI battles before 139?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 02, 2015, 03:32:58 pm
I can't imagine they were used that often, nor they were great, no.  However, I still support them being able to use R/S/M and equipment, and if their access to headbands/secondaries were removed, they should receive stat buffing.  With that much being said, even if such changes aren't implemented, I agree with you that they should be buffed to 9 base Speed if Speed alteration abilities are modified/removed.  :)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 02, 2015, 03:41:32 pm

Monks rarely use anything other than Chakra Band either, so Mimes having access to headbands are not the problem, headbands themselves are.

Quote from: dw6561 on October 02, 2015, 08:16:31 am
I like the idea of Haste + Transparent too. This way, Masamune still remains unique compared to the other ways to add haste, and we could have a proactive source of transparent.


I feel lonely. I seemed to have this aversion to haste/slow being inflicted by songs/dances, but I didn't want to see two perfectly good opportunities for a new skill to be thrown in a fire. It might not be so bad though if they are the only statuses inflicted though now that I think about it.


Could we possibly do Rnd: slow-innocent / Rnd: haste-faith? Should have suggested it earlier. If we do just haste/slow, what about putting Faith/Innocent on nameless song/dance?



Judging from poll results alone, Haste/Slow on Cheer Song/Slow Dance would at least be a given. Personally I feel that just Haste/Slow alone would step on/be too similar to Last Song/Last Dance, so another status should be added. Transparent/Darkness seems to be a popular contender to accompany Haste/Slow. This would mean that Nameless Dance loses both Slow and Darkness. I think that Don't Move and Sadness (if added to the game) could take their spot. Silence could be replaced by Innocent as well, mages always protect against it anyways. In fact, dare I say it, Silence should just be completely removed from the game.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 02, 2015, 04:34:23 pm
I suppose that I was thinking of a rather roundabout way to deal with Chakra Band.  I would be fine with it being balanced/changed and mimes still being able to use headbands.  I had to go back and look-up Sadness to see what it was all about.  I like it and your idea with how to improve Berserk.  Sadness would be quite the pain in the ass to deal with, so would it be an easily-removable/preventable status?  EDIT: I wouldn't care if Silence was removed, as there are other ways to deal with casters.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 02, 2015, 04:58:59 pm
Sadness is effectively the opposite of Innocent there, honestly

Would make them a prime target for Netherspell murders and if Netherseers are created, that'd be like an Innocented unit getting hit by a -ton.

Just be aware of that.

And Silence effects more than mages, as it stops Talk Skill and -should- stop Sing at the very least.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 04, 2015, 03:27:54 pm
Thinking about it, thematically Sadness would work better as Terror, Fear, or Afraid

Got the idea while playing Tactics Ogre and fighting Terror Knights.



And I finally got around to possibly concepting Netherseers based on what Gaignun shared with me.

I only got to the males for now, but I have ideas for females as well. Arms/cowl were a little weird because I resized half of the drawing and forgot to balance it back out after I kept working, but it's solid-ish.

(http://i.imgur.com/9fFiXNh.png)


Used this (http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads/original/1535/15354745/2621584-tekken71.jpg) as a big part of the reference, as provided by Gaignun. That's why the legs and pants look weird.

FFT jobs seemed a little sad or emotionless in their expressions. I wanted a bit more of a... sinister look here, and a small smile with hidden eyes seemed very... different in terms of feel.

Now if I can do both genders well, I'll submit a request in the Sprite section forums. Hopefully, the spriters could take it up because it'll have potential use in an active patch.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Corosar on October 04, 2015, 04:01:07 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on October 02, 2015, 01:41:44 am

I think the names we're throwing around right now are temporary.  If they are actually implemented, it is probably best to come up with better names as you say.


yea i kinda guessed... i just wanted to be one of the first to throw up a few name ideas ^w^
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 04, 2015, 10:36:59 pm
Terror resembles Frog actually, just not as crippling. I imagine it would be something more difficult to get rid of like Faith/Innocent. To make Fear work, it would have to temporarily lower the target's PA instead of Brave since lower Brave raises physical defense, and that would counter the intended effect of making them more susceptible to physicals.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 04, 2015, 11:03:02 pm
What about sadness being like you are more detatched from the world so things don't have much of an effect on you and you don't effect your surroundings much, and Fury can be like the opposite, maybe immersion?

Sadness = Aloof
Fury = Immersion
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 05, 2015, 10:04:17 am
I have one more idea about equip changes. Would anyone mind if we let the Genji Helmet be always berserk? Reason being is that we can allow another option besides salty rage to be always berserk.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 05, 2015, 11:11:34 am
I second the notion to change Genji Helmet's function to always Berserk... or, at least, not initial Berserk.  It has its uses on small maps, but since Berserk units die so easily anyway, it's really just a Grand Helmet minus 30 HP.  Besides, a teammate would gladly dispel initial Berserk, making the helmet even less useful.  At least the Chirijiraden is far from bad when its Berserk is dispelled, similar to the Stone Gun and its initial Petrify.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 05, 2015, 12:12:35 pm
I third Genji Helm getting always: Berserk. Time to make a PA-Stacked, male, Asura Knife Samurai with Attack Up and have him whack that best compatability, unprotected cursed ring unit.  :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 06, 2015, 12:31:05 pm
Would anyone be in favor of Yell getting the Masamune affect? This skill is a single target skill that costs MP, whereas every other skill that inflicts Haste (with exception of repel knife) at least has some kind of AOE. It seems lacking to me.

Also, I would love to see ultima changed a bit. Perhaps gain a dead proc, but make it evadable. Just doesn't seem great to me.

Also, the intended effect of Sadness would be something like to make them more susceptible to Nether Spells, and to nullify a melee unit. However, with something like Initial: Sadness (which would likely be the only way to get it aside from prices) you are going to make some very tanks units potentially. Still, would just require interesting team building.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 06, 2015, 12:41:00 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on October 06, 2015, 12:31:05 pm
Would anyone be in favor of Yell getting the Masamune affect? This skill is a single target skill that costs MP, whereas every other skill that inflicts Haste (with exception of repel knife) at least has some kind of AOE. It seems lacking to me.

Also, I would love to see ultima changed a bit. Perhaps gain a dead proc, but make it evadable. Just doesn't seem great to me.

Also, the intended effect of Sadness would be something like to make them more susceptible to Nether Spells, and to nullify a melee unit. However, with something like Initial: Sadness (which would likely be the only way to get it aside from prices) you are going to make some very tanks units potentially. Still, would just require interesting team building.


Well, that's the thing.

If sadness is indeed added, and people try and make some tankier teams out of it, you're gonna run the risk of someone else making a nuke out of an initial:Sadness Nether-Bard or Netherseer, if they become a job.

It's the same with Innocent and Faith, really. People use innocent to shut down mages and boost -tons, but you rarely see how it can be used to make a team EXTREMELY tanky against magic because nothing grants it initially and the only non-damage way to gain it is a quirky skill that the AI has to be coerced into using.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 06, 2015, 01:14:58 pm
I think Yell is fine the way it is now, as Basic Skill's strength solely lies in its vast versatility, but I agree with Ultima getting a bit of a buff.  I'm not sure if giving it a chance to proc Dead would be a good idea... it's slow, which can give the targeted enemy time to move in range of the caster's allies.  Odin only affects enemies, so you don't have to worry about insta-killing your own team with it.  Instead, maybe Ultima could have its CT lowered to 3 and its damage lowered to MA*8?

I don't think that Sadness should be an initial bonus, either, as the pros far outweigh the cons.  Sure, the nether spells could deal phenomenal damage, but any other form of damage that's affected by Brave would be completely shut down, most of which would be physical attacks, of course.  As for Innocent: the only reliable way to spread it is by using the overpowered Atheist Bow, which is more than enough on its own in most situations.  I think that its chance to proc Innocent should be lowered to 30-40%, and its WP to 13. 

Disclaimer: These numbers I post are more of a "gut feeling" than the result of any mathematics being done.  Lol.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 08, 2015, 04:41:48 am
I am fine with Yell getting Regen.  It is currently the lousiest way to apply Haste. Reduce its range from 3 to 2 if needs be.

I would rather improve Ultima's usability than change its purpose.  It is currently a slow, weak spell on a skillset which is, on the whole, unattractive to casters.  Its only current purpose I can think of is as an AoE nuke on 40-40 tank teams that, for some reason, wish to eschew Draw Out.  Buffing Yell would make Basic Skill, and Ultima by extension, more attractive in general (especially if Masamune loses Regen).  In addition, we could reduce the CT.  I personally would like it to drop from 5 to 3 to put it on par with tier-1 magic.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 08, 2015, 09:37:15 am
Quote from: Gaignun on October 08, 2015, 04:41:48 am
I am fine with Yell getting Regen.  It is currently the lousiest way to apply Haste. Reduce its range from 3 to 2 if needs be.

I would rather improve Ultima's usability than change its purpose.  It is currently a slow, weak spell on a skillset which is, on the whole, unattractive to casters.  Its only current purpose I can think of is as an AoE nuke on 40-40 tank teams that, for some reason, wish to eschew Draw Out.  Buffing Yell would make Basic Skill, and Ultima by extension, more attractive in general (especially if Masamune loses Regen).  In addition, we could reduce the CT.  I personally would like it to drop from 5 to 3 to put it on par with tier-1 magic.


I second all of this.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 02:00:53 pm
Is it possible to give the support ability defend regen? Think of it as a lesser nurse since it doesn't heal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 08, 2015, 02:58:48 pm
I'd be ok with a buff to Defend but if Yell also gets Regen, that would make two new ways to instantly counter Poison, not to mention there will probably be an accessory or two to defend against it. I think Defending itself could be buffed to last longer than one turn.

I believe Repel Knife should also add Poison. Since status CT is separate from the unit's CT, Regen from Masamune is taken advantage of as you get more turns, and therefore get more regens out of your Regen. Repel Knife would do the same thing with Poison. At best, it would send a unit to die in a corner, far away from his allies (which is unlikely to happen on any half-decent team). The chance of backfiring due to Don't Act immunity wouldn't change, but at least you'd poison the target and waste an enemy's turn to cure Poison. There's still the risk of the target having both Poison and Don't Act immunities, but it wouldn't be common enough for me to be as repelled from the Repel Knife as I am now.

Ultima is an oddball, and a slow one at that. I mean, it's just not a Basic Skill at all. I understand we might not want to stray too far away from vanilla but maybe the Battlemage (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg206957#msg206957) or the Netherseer (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg208815#msg208815) could get the ability instead. (Great job ideas by the way Gaignun)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 05:59:59 pm
Forget Ultima. Let's add Meteor to Time Magic and give it 8 CT, MA* 20, unevadable, and to top it all of non elemental. Wizard gets Dark Holy as well. Buff Bahamut's damage modifiers by one while we're at it.

WKW has the right idea for not adding haste/regen on another ability and even though he's new to Arena, Andrew explains what Squire is all about perfectly. As a main unit, squire can play all roles with constantly evolving meta. Basic skill as a secondary skillset compliments most classes in the game. Yell should stay as is. If anything add more basic abilities to the class instead of unbalancing it. If there's room for two abilities when lets get a self boosting brave and faith ability. Instant, +5 br/fa sounds okay.

Can we do something about the filler abilities Tsumazuku and Bad Luck?

I suggested changing Back Luck either slots or roulette and giving the ability both positive and negative effects. Something the AI will undeniably use on allies and enemies and maybe even on themselves. Actually if quickening gets removed we can give thief both good and back luck.
Good Luck: Target Allies only, 100% hit, Add Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison.
Bad Luck - Target Enemies only, 100% hit Add Poison, death sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen
Similar to bard and dancer's nameless abilities, but are meant to target near critical allies or healthy enemies. Seems like versatile abilities to me. Let's make Luck a real stat lads.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 08, 2015, 07:03:31 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 05:59:59 pm
Forget Ultima. Let's add Meteor to Time Magic and give it 8 CT, MA* 20, unevadable, and to top it all of non elemental. Wizard gets Dark Holy as well. Buff Bahamut's damage modifiers by one while we're at it.

WKW has the right idea for not adding haste/regen on another ability and even though he's new to Arena, Andrew explains what Squire is all about perfectly. As a main unit, squire can play all roles with constantly evolving meta. Basic skill as a secondary skillset compliments most classes in the game. Yell should stay as is. If anything add more basic abilities to the class instead of unbalancing it. If there's room for two abilities when lets get a self boosting brave and faith ability. Instant, +5 br/fa sounds okay.

Can we do something about the filler abilities Tsumazuku and Bad Luck?

I suggested changing Back Luck either slots or roulette and giving the ability both positive and negative effects. Something the AI will undeniably use on allies and enemies and maybe even on themselves. Actually if quickening gets removed we can give thief both good and back luck.
Good Luck: Target Allies only, 100% hit, Add Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison.
Bad Luck - Target Enemies only, 100% hit Add Poison, death sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen
Similar to bard and dancer's nameless abilities, but are meant to target near critical allies or healthy enemies. Seems like versatile abilities to me. Let's make Luck a real stat lads.


Ultima still needs a fix regardless of how squared away Squires are. You can't ignore something that needs it just because other abilities need fixing as well.

As it is, it barely has a use. It's basically half of Flare in damage terms, but AoE.

Buffing it's CT a little wouldn't do anything to Squires as they are already.


Thoughts:

Yell becomes instant. It already has to compete with Masamune and Haste/Haste 2 as well, and while it beats Masa in range it then clashes with the AoE Hastes. Give it instant to make it somewhat on-par with the others.
As agreed with Gaignun, Ultima should get 3CT to even make it usable.

Squires are fine otherwise as they are, but I did propose they get Poles in exchange for, say, Books as a MA focused weapon, and perhaps to see more offensive pole use. (and for more historical accuracy. See: quarterstaffs)

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 09:17:58 pm
When you compare Ultima to Throw Stone and Bullrush it's not all that bad. It's the squire's caster ability, which isn't saying much. MA*9, CT5, ranged, non-elemental, faithless Never seen a team or build that had a good Ultima unit in 139 either so I can agree on it needing a buff. MA*10 is the only thing I can think of that'll make it on par with other top end spells like Flare, Holy and Bahamut.

I should make a high end, non-mime team with an Ultima unit before I get into balancing it though. Ultima Weapon and Ultima? Nah.....
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 08, 2015, 09:28:50 pm
Yell is instant. That was a change implemented in 1.39. The reason I suggest it earn Regen is that it really doesn't compete with Masamune, or even Haste 1. It has 100% accuracy I guess, but no AOE and costs MP. If Masamune changes to no longer Add: Regen, then it certainly can be a valid candidate. Still, I think this ability deserves a boost either way.

I like CT 3 Ultima. Adding a point of MA doesn't change the fact that it costs MP, is slow, can be redirected, and is hard to use effectively. Adding several points would balance it, but it is arguable it could become OP. I think seeing it CT3 is a great way to balance it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 09:54:35 pm
Squire can play caster roles too silentkaster. Squire abilities can have an MP cost, also giving it a charge time of three while keeping at 9 MA is too much since it's unevadable and has a MA multiplier of nine. MA*10, CT5 Ultima won't be OP with short charge or magic attack up. Faster units already cancel out slow casters and a 3CT aoe comet isn't OP at all. There's geomancy that can do the same thing and is instant. Short charge 2 CT unevadable ultima sounds ridiculous and magic attack up 15+ 3CT ultima sounds more annoying than current quake and tornado.

Still not sure on why Masamune has to be nerfed and even more unsure of why Yell needs a buff. What's the reasoning behind wanting these changes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on October 09, 2015, 12:53:37 am
what about ultima being ct5 ma 9 enemy only or would that be too much? The biggest issue I've run across when trying to use Ultima is it getting redirected against my own units. One of my bards on rock out team originally had ultima but he kept eating the spell himself too frequently.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 09, 2015, 05:16:48 am
Oh right.  I forgot that Ultima ignores evasion.  In that case, putting it on par with tier 1 magic is going a little too far.  Nevertheless, to make a case that Ultima needs adjustment, I think it is best to put Ultima on terms with Chirijiraden. Both are non-elemental, BrFa-independent AoE skills of identical strength:

Chirijiraden


Ultima


I claim here that the cost of +5 CT is a not worth the extra range and 100% accuracy.  Spell redirection is a big problem on 5 CT AoE spells.  Perhaps we could make Ultima smart-targeting to solve this problem, as Heroebal suggests.

As for Masamune and Yell, I would rather have Haste+Regen on a one-target skill than a two-target skill.  Haste+Regen is perhaps the most effective combination of two separate buffs in Arena, and it is a large contributor to Draw Out's popularity.  Many players, including me, equip Draw Out on support units for Masamune and Masamune alone.  Shuffling its effect to Yell would help curb the ubiquity of Draw Out and help Basic Skill find a little more representation in competitive play.

Quote from: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 05:59:59 pmIf anything add more basic abilities to the class instead of unbalancing it. If there's room for two abilities when lets get a self boosting brave and faith ability. Instant, +5 br/fa sounds okay.


Unfortunately, I don't believe the AI will ever use +Br/Fa skills unless they carry other perks.  Do you have any ideas?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 09, 2015, 05:36:50 am
I agree that Yell should get regen instead of Masamune. If that's the case though, then basic skill gets two ways to cure poison. I don't know if that's relevant but I just wanted to bring that up. Also, I would be fine with a smart-targeting Ultima.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 09, 2015, 05:55:08 am

I'm not sure what to really think of Ultima myself. I guess it's another of those 'too risky' things, even with Short Charge. I have not seen enough use but I would just go ahead with Heroebal's suggestion, that would give it more incentive to use due to the significantly decreased risk. And such a change wouldn't affect Ultima Weapon either, even though it might be considered underpowered at the moment. But I'll use that on some sample teams to get a better idea on how it fares


I wouldn't see +Br/Fa being used much after initial hype of new abilities, at least I wouldn't be. Accumulate/Alacrity is simply better because there is no increased risk attached to it. That being said, I'll drop my suggestion:


Brave booster skill: +5 Brave, -5 Faith
Faith booster skill: +5 Faith, -5 Brave
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 09, 2015, 04:03:48 pm
I can get behind making Ultima smart targeted.

Are you adding that as a suggestion for a new basic skill White Knight Wiegraf or just a new skill in general (or scrapping it since you said drop??? Sorry, honestly not sure which.)

I think you'll find the AI will rarely use that...the situations would be very scarce. The AI views Faith Status as a minor buff and Innocent status as a minor debuff in general.You will occasionally see the AI use refute on a unit that has Innocent, whereas it will only use Refute on faith status of a spell (lethal) is being charged against that unit AND removing Faith will save that unit. (Of course, they may use it as an offensive ability, but not sure that would work either?)

Therefore, lowering one stat to improve another...I'm not sure how the AI will view that but it probably will see it as a minor debuff, only using it to save itself from lethal incoming damage. I'm speculating, but that's how I feel.

As far as the Squire having two ways to cure poison...that's okay too. White Magic has Esuna and Regen. Also, on units with Always: Regen, any ability that adds Regen won't work.

I think a version of Night Sword (like a WP*5 or 6 version) and a Dark Sword (same amount) would do alright on Basic Skill. Make it use MP and be evadable. IDK just thoughts I had.

Also, perhaps Life Drain and Spell Absorb also be made instant (note they don't have a hugely high hit rate and are also evadable.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 09, 2015, 04:22:09 pm
I don't know if squires with dark knight moves in its skillset would be a good idea because then you would immediately think that the dark knight class should be added in.

I like Ultima and yell getting a buff but if we include dark/night sword we'll might as well have dark knights in Arena. Which I'm not sure everyone would like because we're taking about a ranged blood sword attack with a minor MP cost. Not to mention that according to the WotL stats Dark Knights has among the highest attack stat excluding mimes and onion knights.

I mean the inclusion of night/dark sword can work but that will make life drain/spell absorb pointless in the oracle skillset. Unless you want to get rid of life drain/spell absorb for the superior night/dark sword
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on October 09, 2015, 06:27:59 pm
I don't know how I feel about smart targeting on Ultima. It just seems a little out of place maybe? I think lowering the CT to 3 would be good enough to make the move relevant. Changing anything else about it would start interfering with other abilities that are similar causing too much redundancy if you were to raise the AoE or MA multiplier.

Yell getting a buff seems like an ok idea. At the moment, yell as it is, is okay at best. But, it is the worst way to add haste (which is arguably one of if not the "best" buffs) currently in arena. I'd take litearlly any other skill over yell to apply haste though,  and hardly find much use for the skill my self with the way it is currently. When a unit is revived in critical and has yell, that seems to be the only thing the unit ever does. If a unit uses masamune it will atleast gain some hp back from regen usually getting the unit out of critical.

Life/Spell drain becoming instant is interesting. I still think their formulas could use some reworking, but keeping them evadable but instant might give them a bit more use.

Dark Knight as a class might be cool. There is definitely a lot that could be done with a high PA based armor wearing class. Adding in dark sword and night sword as abilities would be cool but seems pretty OP on squire if you ask me if we don't end up getting a new class. Not sure where they would fit instead, but maybe remove Ultima for night/dark sword? I'm not sure about that...

Faith/Brave boosting skills are pretty meh and too situational for the AI to find useful. If you want higher Brave/Faith on a unit, Warpath and Pilgrimage do just fine especially if combined with Fa/Br up. I don't think we need more ways of adding more br/fa on units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 09, 2015, 07:07:05 pm
I was just suggesting them as extra squire skills. Really, the formula suggested would not make it very powerful in the set up even with a high PA weapon and Attack Up. But I understand if it isn't well liked or wanted.

I'm behind Smart targeting OR CT3 Ultima. Either one is fine by me.

Before adding new classes like Dark Knight and such though, I would honestly like to see Monsters, at least a few classes, integrated to be honest though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 09, 2015, 07:25:15 pm
What about just removing the MP cost to Yell? With the possible removal of SP altering abilities it seems like the best way to balance it without completely changing how the AI uses the ability. It would fix the attribute boosting ability bug for some units that want to use Yell and Focus/Accumulate.

I suggested a while back we could always add the PSP classes into the game, but balance them. I'm definitely more for a Malak/Rafa class being implemented since we could use more casters though.

I'd take Onion Knight to S5 easy. All equipment available including weapons and shilelds? No worrying about mimic nonsense? Giving it Innate Two Swords and Two Hands might be asking for too much.

-------------------------
Voting on the Malboro family for the first monster group to be in arena. My bad breath team will be something fierce.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on October 12, 2015, 03:29:11 pm
How does everyone feel about a helmet that adds +1 SP? Maybe +85 HP and 1 SP or so to keep it semi-balanced at least.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 12, 2015, 04:02:19 pm
I would be ok with a +1 SP helmet.

Also, I don't really feel like adding Dark Knight and swordskills is in the spirit of Arena. I know I probably shouldn't be so quick to discount it but it just doesn't sit well with me. I can get behind Onion Knight in place of mime though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 13, 2015, 01:30:46 am
So largely it seems that there should be two new classes (Netherseer and Onion Knight)

Could write up stats and equips and such for them just to be more exact, but I'm bad at that.

So I'll recap what I can remember off the top of my head for retrospection and/or more ideas:

Change/Fix Ultima, Tsumazuku, Bad Luck
Largely removing speed altering
Netherseers and UnFury spells
Quaknado gaining CT
Shields losing largely losing elemental weakness/gaining more interesting resistances/buffs
Katana sword procs
Masamune yet again
Jump CT based on Jump Movement instead of Speed
Spears improve Jump Move instead of Speed
Samurai gains Spears and Bows (historical accuracy+ job improvements)
Paladins gain Flails, perhaps lose Katanas
Squires lose Books and gain Poles (historical accuracy + more room for offensive polemen/women)
Poison/Regen changes. MP versions as well?
Wizards raised above the current Wizard+ Scholars via MA
Summoners become MP oceans
Spell/Life Absorb becomes based on something other than max HP/MP%
Demi Gun, maybe a Cure Gun (Celdia's CCP2 has a gun that heals on hit instead, for example, but gotta watch that WP for abuse)


So there's that on the table
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 13, 2015, 09:36:47 am
Onion knight seems fine to me. If they have the ability to equip secondaries and RSM, then I would say no innate 2S or 2H. Also, if onion knight has the ability to equip everything like it does in WoTL, there's no need to make their stats absolutely stellar because they can always boost it via equipment. That being said, they could be at least a step up from mime or on par with squire for PA and MA, but I would definititely make their HP lower than squire if this is the case. 9 Speed might be a bit much, so I would go with 8 speed.

Here is my proposal on stats (Not sure on the HP/MP values):

Female: 100-120 HP, 50-70 MP, 7 PA, 9 MA, 8 SP
Male: 120-140 HP, 40-60 MP, 9 PA, 7 MA, 8 SP

On another note, when you say "MP oceans", how much MP are we talking about here? I can practically taste the combinations with MP switch if we were to add that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 13, 2015, 10:59:46 am
I think he meant that summoners will have a healthy supply of MP to the point where you can just go ahead and throw on high HP gear on them. Gives summoners better longevity

Onion Knights are supposed to be the best class in Final Fantasy, not just in WotL. You have to master every job to max out the stats, and level 6 squire/chemist just to unlock it and at first their stats suck.

Plus Onion Knights needs move/jump 4 to compete against thieves because currently thieves are among one of the strongest classes in this patch. Not just the recent SCC tourney but in AI tourneys in general. Thieves are just so versatile at physical, status and support roles that their speed highly compliments them. Onion Knights getting 9 or 10 speed I think would be helpful because while thieves aren't invincible but there are not many classes that can stand up to them
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on October 13, 2015, 03:50:21 pm
Gawd too many ideas! Before we even think of changing things like samurai which is actually totally fine and doesn't really need any buffs we gotta make sure the big things get fixed, such as scholar as a whole.

What i don't understand is why masamune (ability) still gives regen. By removing regen from masamune you would buff both poison AND every other ability that uses regen. still range one target self, and people will still use the crap out of it. The whole reason regen has problems at all is because of how easy it is to abuse masamune, and how many times better masamune is to pretty much everything else in the game. Conversely, squire should pick up poison. First off, it'll actually get used, and secondly, it will help fortify squire as a potential caster. Ultima isn't bad but i really wish it was ct4.

while we're on samurai, all they need is a selection of katana that people will want to use. that's it. Start giving them bows and spears and then they'll pretty much be able to do everything with little to no drawback. Kind of not cool as they're supposed to be compared to paladins who appear to get left in the dust with every new idea. I know i was one of the first to agree on the bow/spear thing, but after much thought, i realized my second favourite caster class is samurai, and they're not even caster types. We don't need them proficient as a speed character as well.

I'm cool with netherseer as a class, not too happy with losing dancers though. It's a tough call between the dancer skillset being nearly useless, but the class itself totally rocking. If we lose permanent speed stacking, maybe we can ease up on the dancer's hit %. Would be cool if there was an oil spell on a class somewhere. Thief needs a PA nerf. Like, a big PA nerf. If masamune loses regen, maybe lancer can pick up "Rei's Wind" which would look like a grand cross that grants regen. We can keep the 3 highest level jumps and like 2 vertical jump slots and have a few support abilities akin to squire stuff. Zombie/berserk/oil/stop and maybe charm need another skill to cure them. They just dominate games and can be very difficult to counter. especially stop, nerf the stop spell PLEASE! waaaay too potent for how easily 100% can be achieved. i can't even get those odds with don't act. I suggest we make a shield to prevent one of each of these statii as most armor doesn't even protect against them and cloth units should have a choice of at least one defense (aside from accessories which may offer ma/pa benefits you may not even want)

i don't think increasing summoner MP will make a huge difference unless we develop spells with such ridiculous MP costs that only a summoner would be able to comfortably cast them. If not, you could give them 999 mp and they'll still collect dust. Oh, and no mp switch. we can't get that to function properly without move mp up abuse.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 13, 2015, 05:01:29 pm
Actually, MP Switch + Move-MP UP while great in Vanilla, isn't really great once you make the excess damage affect HP damage. It gives an (unreliable) extra HP pool to many units, but Move-MP UP can't accomplish some things that Move-HP UP (and perhaps a different reaction) can. In fact, it's almost a trap of sorts for the AI due to these reasons:

1. AI will not be able to recover from critical with Move-MP UP + MP Switch. So it can regain ALL of its MP. It will still be in critical if it cannot heal its own HP.

2. Most units have more HP than MP and those that do have healthy MP rely on said MP for its skills. Sure, you might make a Summoner with Draw Out which would give it a whole lot of MP while it can't do anything with its MP to make him/her have more longevity. But then this Summoner has lost a whole way of using their spells (remember, even with Move-MP UP, the AI will not recognize it has MP until its next turn, even if it has moved before it has acted.)

3. MP Switch is unreliable (as with any reaction ability) and does not always activate.

There are a few other reasons, but these are the major ones. Again, my proposition with MP Switch is for this to happen. Unit A has 300 HP and 100 MP. A melee attack hits Unit A for 150 damage, so Unit A loses all MP (100) and 50 HP (to equal the total damage of the shot.) It is done this way in several other patches and works very well.

At best, it would give a unit an extra HP pool that won't always activate. Although I will say this...if this gets implemented, I'd rather not see any form of MP Regen/Poison. So I'd rather have one or the other (and I don't care too much which one gets implemented either way.) It could be the buff Summoners need though since it would make a good use of their large MP, but low HP, pool.

I do think Heal should cure Berserk as I believe it is supposed to. Zombie/Oil are not really that amazing. Oil in its current form has already been nerfed. It screws over elemental absorb teams, sure. But there are several immunity items and Heal/Holy Water/Refute all get rid of it. In addition to that, the AI doesn't see it as a terribly high priority to heal in most cases, so even adding abilities won't help too much. Zombie requires a whole set up team for it to work effectively. Zombie (Necronomicon and Bio 3 as well) are evadable, require a large set up and need at least two turns to be effective (one to cast/proc undead, and the second to kill the unit.)  I wouldn't mind seeing Heal gain access to curing Undead, but I'm kinda meh on that point too. I do agree Stop is running a little rampant right now. If the spell doesn't change, at least change the ability Stall to rightfully be 300 JP in the spreadsheet.

Again, before I see OK's (and even Netherseer), I'd like to see Monsters, which have been being talked about for a long time, added. Even a small number of them added would be fine...we don't need them all. These all could add a new, familiar element to the game that the other two classes can't (perhaps OK can a bit, but even then, a job with no skillset that can equip anything is going to be similar to Mime but without the Mimicking, add weapons).

As far as Paladins getting left behind as opposed to Samurai, Paladins are actually a pretty decent class right now. Their primary purpose is a support/tanky character that is hard to eliminate. With the highest Base HP, access to Shields, Armor and Axes (which give high HP and evade), and abilities that make self healing (and others) relatively easy, Paladins aren't too requiring of buffs right now.

Samurai are probably being mentioned since they are one of two classes that can only equip one weapon type (besides bags...the other being Time Mage...Monks can't equip any non bagged weapons). I'd like to see Time Mages get access to an additional weapon, too, but Samurai won't become a speed class. In fact, currently, Samurai is the slowest speed class. It cannot, under any set up, get above twelve speed (and to get to 12 speed it needs an "Equip X" support ability). Every other class, including Mimes, can at least get to 13 speed with its equips/support ability except Samurai. Plus, Spears (specifically Javelin) were under discussion to lessen/eliminate the speed bonuses.

As mentioned, Life Drain/Spell Absorb could be made instant to buff them, but my other idea was to make them based on the caster's HP/MP. This would make them pretty darn relevant when placed on a high HP unit.

Speaking of high HP units, I wanted to mention this since we talked about a weapon that functions better at high HP. One of the drawbacks of using the Moonlight/Balance is that the unit has to put itself at  high risk of dying in order for the weapons to be effective at the max. This balances them greatly since to use them at the highest power, the unit must be closer to death and that's risky. On the other hand, a unit that uses a weapon while constantly at full HP seems a lot less balanced since the AI will target lower HP units first typically (going for the easiest death in most cases). Because you WANT to have high HP base with weapons like the Moonlight or Balance, you also get less opportunities to maximize them since high HP units get targeted last by damage spells (typically). However, these weapons would not be balanced since these units will have high HP, likely high base HP and maximum power. IDK...just not sitting right with me.

Also...Atheist bow...can we do something about that proc percentage?

Yell is still a crappy ability even removing its MP cost. Since most can agree Masamune needs a lower cost and Yell can stand a buff, I still suggest transferring Regen to Yell. Make it cost MP and add Regen. It would balance them pretty well I think.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 13, 2015, 06:40:28 pm
Basic Skill: Yell adding Haste+Regen sounds great! Smart-target Ultima also sounds like a good idea.

Onion Knight: whoa, one person mentions it and now everyone's jumping on board? 1. can we even add it to the job wheel / what job would it replace, 2. what purpose does it serve? While the 2S combination possibilities would be pretty cool, Onion Knights wouldn't do much outside of that in terms of making for interesting teambuilding / gameplay.

Thieves - Rouroni, Thieves will still be used even with a PA nerf, guaranteed. It's Thieves' 10 SP that makes them so unique and powerful. PA nerf might reduce their damage-dealing capabilities, but they will still function superbly in other jobs (ex. items, Talk Skill). Since I'm talking about Thieves though, how about lowering Steal Heart accuracy? It's essentially a talk skill that adds the nastiest status, at a higher accuracy than other Talk Skills. I'd go with MA+40%.

Polka Polka / Disillusion to 50%? Arena doesn't suffer from low damage problems + we're all better players now. I don't think the accuracy buff will cause Y U SO DERP-esque teams to suddenly dominate the game again.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 13, 2015, 07:31:08 pm
I'm not for the introduction of the onion knight, especially if samurai and squires have their equipment options expanded.  If the onion knight has to replace an existing generic job, then it shouldn't be introduced no matter what.  I couldn't see myself using one over a mime in any given situation, especially if/when its bugs are fixed.  To me, the onion knight is akin to a berserker (such as from FF5) in terms of usefulness: it would have its moments, but it's mostly just wasting a generic job slot.

The summoner's skillset is really the only thing it has going for it.  There are so many ways to regain MP, so the extra MP they have is essentially useless.  What if they received an extra point of Move and were granted access to knives?  I could see them being super-mobile support casters, or ambushers with Short Charge.  Just a thought.

It's a shame that certain gender/job combinations make lacklustre job bases such as summoner even less desirable.  Male summoners have to be the worst units in the game, with male wizards and female lancers not too far behind.  I love how all three of them look, which makes their uselessness affect me even more.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 13, 2015, 08:22:02 pm
Summoner, Secondary, MP Switch, Support, Move-MP Up, Robe of Lords for an easy 250+ HP/MP and you've got yourself an interesting unit.
MP Switch on a martial arts monk would also be interesting since they have a decent base MP pool and high HP.

Can we get an always reflect item by the way? Just make it so reflect isn't active while dead like a salty rage unit.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on October 13, 2015, 11:24:23 pm
I'm not the guy who pulls out a spreadsheet to ensure the math is sound (that's for the intelligent people like wkw and gaigun to do) I just spitball ideas with balance in mind, even if it nerfs some of my favourite stuff. I firmly believe haste and regen should remain seperate. I think thieves should have to make great sacrifices to achieve 200 damage, and if mp switch is anything like it was before, it has no place here. I watched some stuff in the earlier seasons where the mp would not carry over to hp when surpassed. If this can be addressed, then sure, I can consider it, but if that's not possible, it can get messy. That's just my two cents.

I pretty much agree with everything else (go easy on the pole arms though, they're mostly great weapons even if underused) monsters have been a topic of much debate in the past and I agree we should try to hash that out before attempting to add new classes. My proposal for them are to have pre-designed monster units that vary with palettes based on popular team designs. For example: Red bomb is fire element, absorbs fire, has a fire spell and can self destruct dealing fire damage and oil. Grenade (blue) can be the ice version that procs slow upon detonation, and even a green one (Ivy shell?) That is earth but heals upon detonation and offers positive buffs (if we can get ai to sacrifice itself like that, again I'm just the idea man, I'll let the smart people determine if something like that can work). We can do this for chocobo, skeletons, behemoths etc. As far as equip is concerned, I think they should have equip accessory only with a list of accessories specially designed for monsters. I would love to see monsters have their own JP skill sets, but that seems absolutely daunting to program, so this is my proposal. Of course having their own JP skill sets to choose from would be ideal, but I'd just be happy to see monsters functioning at all.

Though I've been around for a while, my input isn't much better than what a new player can offer so please take what I say with a grain of salt. I feel that the game has been well refined at this point and doesn't need drastic changes all over the place, but a few things must happen for sure. Losing speed stacking is definitely one most of us seem to agree on and may be just what the game needs to do things such as keep thieves in check.

Oh, I'm curious: what do ya'll think we should do about monsters? Would you feel okay with pre-designed monsters to fill offence/tank/support roles (much like vanilla)? If not, how do think we should go about that?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 14, 2015, 05:50:09 am
There was talk about monsters in dedicated threads in the past. It's worth a look to see what people thought of doing with them in general.

I'd give Always: Reflect to Reflect Ring. This way you couldn't have Cursed Ring users that can permanently dodge Raise 2.

Ability suggestions:

- Remove Weapon Break and give Steal Weapon to the Thief. Arm Aim just outclasses it.
- According to some online Japanese-English dictionary, Tsumazuku means 'to trip' or 'to stumble'. If we go by that, 100% Don't Move would make a lot more sense than 100% cancel Reraise.
- Just remove Bad Luck's CT.
- Please make Hawk's Eye not bypass Blind status. It is incredibly difficult to counter. It should probably take your weapon's element into account as well.
- To take care of AoE Stop procs, since Esuna and Stigma Magic have their hands full already, how about Dispel Magic? I'd throw in Slow into it as well.
- Maybe give Heal 2-3 range? More often than not, harm will be done by the time I reach an ally to remove the appropriate bad status.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on October 14, 2015, 06:41:46 am
I looked way back in the threads not too long ago to see where those discussions went and it pretty much ends at "what do think monsters should be like, and what should they bring to the game" (paraphrase) which was discussed among people who (mostly) don't play anymore and fft master. There was even discussion about giving monster full ability/equipment sets.

I was going to start a new thread on the topic then, but I didn't want to give the impression that was something actually being worked on in 1.40 and also I have no idea where that work is at or even what we're capable of doing.

So, I think it would be cool to discuss it here with people who play the game and are excited to talk about it.

Hey, if you guys prefer, I can open a new thread with open monster discussion and a pole to help feel out what people have in mind if it's more comfortable that way. I get it is a balance thread.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on October 14, 2015, 12:33:18 pm
I think adding a few monsters would be awesome. Just basic ones for now would be fine, maybe chocobos, bombs, goblins, and squids? Even just having 1 pallete or type for each monster class for now would be fine. I think having 3 variants of each monster at this point might be a bit much.

Chocobos could be the 'white mage' type, using choco cure/esuna/raise(?)?/and maybe choco ball for light damage options.
Goblins could be the physical attackers. Spin fist/blind/stigma magic/revive  (possibly).
Bombs could be mobile units with AoE attacks. Fire spin/Oil/Self Destruct/something else.
Squids could be the caster units. Aqua lung/Haste/Berserk/Frog

Just off the top of my head. I think adding maybe 4-5 monsters to start, giving them 4 moves, and giving them decent hp and stats but no equiptment might a good idea. Or just allowing them to equip accessorys for a bit of flare whether that's boosting PA/MA/SP or granting random elemental absorb or status protection. I don't think that would allow them to be too OP.

Then, allow each team to have up to 2 monsters max. I really think adding monsters would add a lot of depth and strategy options even if we only have a few of them to start. They would allow for some pretty good team builds. They could each play designated roles so they could easily replace any human character. I think monsters should have pretty high base hp/mp and ma/pa if we decide not to let them equip items. I'd much rather see monsters over any more classes added, even over netherseer or OK/DK. Monsters FTW.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 14, 2015, 10:17:08 pm
Honestly, it would probably be best to have Monsters like the Old Mime used to be...where the stats are set with set RSM abilities (no equipment). You could also give them natural immunities to status. These, along with unique skills and uses, would highlight monsters while still being pretty simple to implement...at least for the first patch of including them. If they don't see much use or people want to change after that, we can look at changing them...but it would be nice to have a control group for the monsters.

I'm really not sure if all the Mime bugs can be worked out. Many problems they have are things the Mimes were never meant to do anyway...so it just makes it a bit more difficult.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 15, 2015, 02:18:56 am
MP switch is fine if we can have HP incur the remaining damage.  At the cost of a reaction ability, it would allow players to design summoners as unconventional tanks, and use Carbunkle as an unconventional Moogle.

Quote from: silentkaster on October 13, 2015, 05:01:29 pmAs far as Paladins getting left behind as opposed to Samurai, Paladins are actually a pretty decent class right now. Their primary purpose is a support/tanky character that is hard to eliminate. With the highest Base HP, access to Shields, Armor and Axes (which give high HP and evade), and abilities that make self healing (and others) relatively easy, Paladins aren't too requiring of buffs right now.


I generally agree about Paladins.  They're strong on their own, but are currently being outsped by clothes-wearers.  Paladins have 3 Move and 8 SP.  Though their melee damage is high, this paltry mobility and speed means they have trouble putting this damage to use.  Curbing speed across the board (and possibly also introducing PA-based spells via Netherseer and making EV persist while charging via a new Reaction ability) would help make Paladins more popular. 

Quote from: silentkaster on October 13, 2015, 05:01:29 pm
Samurai are probably being mentioned since they are one of two classes that can only equip one weapon type (besides bags...the other being Time Mage...Monks can't equip any non bagged weapons). I'd like to see Time Mages get access to an additional weapon, too, but Samurai won't become a speed class.


This is true.  Giving samurai longbows would make them slower, armored archers.  It's mainly for making the male samurai more versatile like the female one.

As for Time Mages, I agree that they could use another weapon.  I would recommend poles.  Together with my suggestions for pole changes (i.e., turning them into status-spell-procing weapons), poles would suit the Time Mage's role as a saboteur along with the Oracle, another wielder of poles.

Quote from: silentkaster on October 13, 2015, 05:01:29 pm
As mentioned, Life Drain/Spell Absorb could be made instant to buff them, but my other idea was to make them based on the caster's HP/MP. This would make them pretty darn relevant when placed on a high HP unit.


I am personally for basing Life Drain and Spell Absorb on caster HP/MP values.  As silentkaster mentions, this will make high HP/MP equipment and classes (such as Paladins!) more relevant.

Quote from: silentkaster on October 13, 2015, 05:01:29 pm
Also...Atheist bow...can we do something about that proc percentage?


Yeah, as it is with no conventional way to block or cure Innocent, Atheist Bow's proc rate should probably drop to around 50%.  We can increase the bow's range by 1 to compensate.

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on October 14, 2015, 05:50:09 am
I'd give Always: Reflect to Reflect Ring. This way you couldn't have Cursed Ring users that can permanently dodge Raise 2.

Ability suggestions:

- Remove Weapon Break and give Steal Weapon to the Thief. Arm Aim just outclasses it.
- According to some online Japanese-English dictionary, Tsumazuku means 'to trip' or 'to stumble'. If we go by that, 100% Don't Move would make a lot more sense than 100% cancel Reraise.
- Just remove Bad Luck's CT.
- Please make Hawk's Eye not bypass Blind status. It is incredibly difficult to counter. It should probably take your weapon's element into account as well.
- To take care of AoE Stop procs, since Esuna and Stigma Magic have their hands full already, how about Dispel Magic? I'd throw in Slow into it as well.
- Maybe give Heal 2-3 range? More often than not, harm will be done by the time I reach an ally to remove the appropriate bad status.


I agree with this.  However, I wouldn't get too strung up on skill names.  Kagesougi (影争議) means "shadow-dispute," as in, "The shadows are upset about low pay and are going on strike," and Houkouton (方向遁) means "let free the directions," as if directions are corporeal entities that are unleashed on opponents.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on October 15, 2015, 12:43:49 pm
I think a few of the crossbows could use a buff. This includes Night Killer, Silencer, Poision Bow, and Hunting Bow. Currently the only ones that really get used are Bow Gun, and Gastrafitis, which IMO Bow Gun @ 8 WP is pretty meh. Maybe increasing the proc rate for these from 50% to 75% or even 100%.
Even at 100% Blind (Night Killer), Silence (Silencer), Poision (Posion Bow) and Dont Move (Hunting Bow) does not make these weapons OP, just gives them a little bit more reason to use them over any long bow, which currently not many people do. I'd like to see some more archers with crossbows and shields but currently the crossbows are pretty meh overall and I don't think increasing their WP will make them much more attractive to use so I think buffing their proc rates significantly is a good start.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 15, 2015, 02:46:19 pm
I think Crossbows could receive a slight buff too (or maybe they're actually fine, but no one's really using them?). Crossbow procs at 66% sound reasonable. 100% is, in fact, too strong - they used to be this way long, long ago. It was nasty. Hunting Bow in particular.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 15, 2015, 03:03:40 pm
What about unevadable for all except Gastrafitis and lowering the WP? Keep the proc percent the same. I think that would make them more popular on defensive units.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 15, 2015, 03:50:30 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on October 15, 2015, 02:46:19 pm
I think Crossbows could receive a slight buff too (or maybe they're actually fine, but no one's really using them?). Crossbow procs at 66% sound reasonable. 100% is, in fact, too strong - they used to be this way long, long ago. It was nasty. Hunting Bow in particular.


I agree with having their proc chances increased.  I find that their damage output is adequate enough.

Quote from: silentkaster on October 15, 2015, 03:03:40 pm
What about unevadable for all except Gastrafitis and lowering the WP? Keep the proc percent the same. I think that would make them more popular on defensive units.


If this were to happen, I don't think people would use physical guns at all.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 15, 2015, 04:34:11 pm
Quote from: Andrew on October 15, 2015, 03:50:30 pm

If this were to happen, I don't think people would use physical guns at all.


Why? Lowering the WP of each by 2 would put the highest WP on par with the Romanda Gun. But the Romanda Gun has 8 range making it far superior for skills like Hawk's Eye and Arm Aim. The Mythril Gun provides 2 MA. None of the crossbows can or would provide that, and all of them would still be subject to Projectile Guard. The Stone Gun would also be boosted by the lowering WP of the crossbows. Although, I still think the current Stone Gun is literally one of the worst weapons in the game and is outclassed by the Gastrafitis in nearly every way.

I'm okay with not making them unevadable and boosting them another way as well, but I certainly don't think this idea makes guns obsolete.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on October 15, 2015, 04:57:32 pm
Andrew is right. Unevadable crossbows would cause a riot. I'm giving up on this thread until 140. What ever happens, happens.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 15, 2015, 04:58:35 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on October 15, 2015, 04:57:32 pm
Andrew is right. Unevadable crossbows would cause a riot. I'm giving up on this thread until 140. What ever happens, happens.


Again though, why?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 15, 2015, 05:01:33 pm
Quote from: silentkaster on October 15, 2015, 04:34:11 pm
Why? Lowering the WP of each by 2 would put the highest WP on par with the Romanda Gun. But the Romanda Gun has 8 range making it far superior for skills like Hawk's Eye and Arm Aim. The Mythril Gun provides 2 MA. None of the crossbows can or would provide that, and all of them would still be subject to Projectile Guard. The Stone Gun would also be boosted by the lowering WP of the crossbows. Although, I still think the current Stone Gun is literally one of the worst weapons in the game and is outclassed by the Gastrafitis in nearly every way.

I'm okay with not making them unevadable and boosting them another way as well, but I certainly don't think this idea makes guns obsolete.


Even if the status crossbows were lowered to 10 WP, they could still end-up dealing much more damage than guns through PA-increasing means, especially since PA is easy to boost with little drawback.  The result of this would be unavoidable ranged weapons with a high damage ceiling that have a 50% chance to proc annoying statuses which the enemy AI would spend the majority of their time removing.  Even if they were used on low-PA units, they would still be invaluable.  Also, an unavoidable Bow Gun would spell trouble!  I wouldn't want to fight a team composed of defensive Bow Gun users with this change.  As for Projectile Guard: it's like buffing overall Talk Skill accuracy by a hefty amount and saying that it's okay because Finger Guard exists.  Not every team utilizes that reaction.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 15, 2015, 05:54:45 pm
Quote from: Andrew on October 15, 2015, 05:01:33 pm
Even if the status crossbows were lowered to 10 WP, they could still end-up dealing much more damage than guns through PA-increasing means, especially since PA is easy to boost with little drawback.  The result of this would be unavoidable ranged weapons with a high damage ceiling that have a 50% chance to proc annoying statuses which the enemy AI would spend the majority of their time removing.


This is already possible with these weapons. Let's take a look at the difference between a unit equipped with concentrate using the current Crossbows and a unit equipped with Attack UP and the proposed Crossbows. We'll use a Squire since they can innately equip Crossbows and they can easily use Concentrate. We'll use Poison Bow since it's one of the higher ones with 12 PA.

Unbuffed Squire: 10 PA + Concentrate current Poison Bow (12) = 120 HP damage + 50% proc Poison
Unbuffed Squire patched: 10 PA + Attack UP proposed Poison Bow = 130 HP damage + 50% proc Poison

Max Buffed Squire: 17 PA + Concentrate current Poison Bow = 204 HP damage + 50% proc Poison
Max Buffed Squire: 17 PA + Attack UP proposed Poison Bow = 220 HP damage + 50% proc Poison

It doesn't seem like that much of a difference in terms of damage.

Now, you might argue, "Well, sure, but now you can have innate concentrate + a defensive or supportive Support ability rather than making it offensive." But defensive units have the option (some of them anyway) to use these weapons now and simply don't. It's not because they are inaccurate (every weapon is besides the Hidden Knife), but it's because they just don't provide enough of what a defensive unit wants. Don't Move can be annoying, but the other statuses are easily guarded (seeing an unprotected mage is extremely rare), could be irrelevant (Blind on a Mage, Silence on a Monk, etc), or easily cured.

Not to mention that most defensive units use status anyway. How often do we see an Unyielding Chemist with Talk Skill, an evasive Mediator with Kiyomori or the like? It's very often. The change would just give Crossbows a competing edge with those.

Increasing the proc to anything below...say...75% I don't think would increase the use much. Most teams don't rely on the status the Crossbows provide enough to make them worth using. The Hunting Bow is probably the most "useful" of all of them, and even that I say is situational at best.

To be complete, yes this would give high PA jobs more of an incentive to use, "Equip Ranged" and equip a crossbow. But would that really be worth it for a 10 WP Crossbow when a high PA unit can really do some damage with another weapon choice? Ehhhhh...

Also, the range isn't that much of a factor. In fact, it could get in the way based on the Crossbow's trajectory and any unit, including one with three move, could easily approach the shooter on their next turn (again, barring the Hunting Bow proc but its WP would only be 8 which is not impressive at all.)

Quote from: Andrew on October 15, 2015, 05:01:33 pmEven if they were used on low-PA units, they would still be invaluable.  Also, an unavoidable Bow Gun would spell trouble!  I wouldn't want to fight a team composed of defensive Bow Gun users with this change.  As for Projectile Guard: it's like buffing overall Talk Skill accuracy by a hefty amount and saying that it's okay because Finger Guard exists.  Not every team utilizes that reaction.


I do understand that, but this makes Maintenance more of a choice as well (which also needs a helping hand since few people use the Support Skill). (Although I still think the Armor Break proc would be avoidable, just not the shot itself.)

It's not like saying that, though. In fact, if the Crossbows could cause Sleep, DS, Berserk, Don't Act, Stop, Faith, Innocent, or remove all status, like Talk Skill does, I think that we'd be saying they need a nerf. Not to mention, Talk Skill is, at least as far as I know, popularly considered not to be OP or UP so nobody's saying, "How do we buff/nerf Talk Skill?" but people have been asking, "How do we make Crossbows better, but not OP like they were with 100% procs?" (It should also be mentioned that the status that Talk Skill inflicts is worth the low accuracy of the skill itself, so you trade low accuracy for a very good result when it actually does connect...but with the Crossbows...the status isn't as strong.)

I'm simply asking, "What would it really take for a player to consider a Crossbow to be a fairly good choice of a weapon?" I think unevadable would do it, and not make it OP as long as the Weapon Power is nerfed. Beyond that, I don't see much.

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 15, 2015, 06:21:44 pm
Well, let's say all the status-inducing Crossbows go to 10 WP and are unevadable.

Max damage setup: 17 PA Archer with AUP (Genji Shield, Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer) -> 220 damage. Probably scarier would be 16 PA, 10 SPD Archer with AUP (Zephyr Shield instead of Genji Shield) -> 210 damage. 12 SPD variant does 170 damage with AUP (Zephyr Shield, Thief Hat, Power Sleeve, Cursed Ring). So with AUP, you're probably going to see 160-200 damage attacks (cause 12 and 15 PA are nice break points for AUP). That's pretty good, but leaves the Archer vulnerable to straight up damage (~300 HP) or status, which is rampant. Ok the 12 SPD archer sounds pretty strong, but so do a lot of 12 SPD units >_>

As for Romanda Gun, let's not forget that it can still be used with abilities like Kagesougi, thus netting the same benefit from PA boosting gear and AUP. The range makes Romanda Gun much more attractive here. Also for Arm Aim / equip breaks, like silentkaster said. And for anti-PD/Wish/Revive purposes. Romanda Gun still seems totally usable to me!

Also, Andrew, in case you aren't aware, Bow Gun isn't 50% chance to destroy armor if it hits, it's a 50% chance to use the skill Armor Break, which can miss. So the probability of actually destroying a unit's armor with Bow Gun is closer to 25-30% if it hits (less if the target has high evade!).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 15, 2015, 07:16:44 pm
Even in the event of crossbows ignoring evasion, an Archer can still achieve better results with a bow and Hawk's Eye. That thing does 100% Poison and Oil, plus it ignores Blind, all of which can be done from a greater range than a crossbow with significantly higher damage (especially if the crossbows lose WP in exchange). All of this for 12 MP. That, I believe, is what makes the status crossbows pointless to use. Especially Poison Bow.

I would give them elements, like so:

Poison Crossbow: Dark
Hunting Bow: Earth
Silencer: Wind/Water
Night Killer: Holy


All/Most of them wouldn't require 108 Gems to strengthen their element, unlike bows (except Silver via Golden Hairpin), leaving the accessory slot open. So you have some medium damage, a fair chance of status proc, and the possibility to heal allies. I think that would be a nice addition to them that woudn't make them overpowering or anything, just give them an extra function because as they are now, no matter the buffs they get, they'll get outperformed by abilities like Hawk's Eye and Kagesougi.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 15, 2015, 08:12:05 pm
I like the idea of elements on crossbows. That alone would make me want to use them more. I don't know about making them unevadable though. Hawk's eye definitely should be changed. Maybe we could change it to only inflict poison or only oil, but I think the real deal here is that it ignores blind, from what everyone has been saying. Why does it ignore blind anyway? Is it the formula that's used for it?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 16, 2015, 04:03:49 am
My breakdown of archer equipment options is as follows:

The problem is that the majority of archers are choosing option 1 (spellguns last patch, longbows current patch) most of the time.  In addition to their high damage and long range, longbows also provide +1 SP and can be made 100% accurate with Hawk's Eye.  If we remove the SP bonuses and make Hawk's Eye subject to P-EV (or at least Blind), and if we also provide a more attractive selection of shields, then option 2 will become more attractive in turn.

And concerning option 2, one can choose between Romanda Gun for reliable, but weak damage, or crossbows for higher, but unreliable damage.  Posed thus, a crossbow that is unevadable (i.e. more reliable), but weaker would be functionally indistinguishable from Romanda Gun.  The difference between guns and crossbows is not so much a balance of raw power as a division of purpose.  Consequently, I am reluctant to endorse improving crossbows in this fashion.  If crossbows absolutely need a buff, it would be best to consider an alternative (such as making them elemental as wkw suggests).

This is an aside, but to make a quantitative comparison that reflects the difference in purpose between crossbow and Romanda Gun, it is best to calculate expectation values that incorporate target evasion.  A crossbow has equal expected damage when

WPc = WPg^2 / (PA*HIT)

where


Setting WPg = 10, we obtain the graph below.  Each line is a contour of equivalent expected damage.  For fair comparison, assume the archer has 10 PA (i.e., no PA-boosting equipment).  Then, a 12 WP crossbow would be more powerful than a Romanda Gun as long as the crossbow's hit rate is approximately 84% or higher.  In other words, crossbows are more powerful against units with little to no evasion (e.g., monks, samurai, mages).  (Of course, the crossbow can inflict its target with a status ailment as a bonus.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Elmdork on October 17, 2015, 04:22:27 am
That's really awesome, gaigun. Thanks for putting the graph together, it literally illustrates your point perfectly. I urge people to at least give crossbows a shot (pun totally intended) they are actually really strong in conjunction with a shield. It's like having a gun you can customize to suit your units' specific needs. Swift plate gives you the speed, escutcheon gives crazy evade and the genji shield boosts pa.. what more do you need? (not to mention the equation is based solely on pa in case you're a slow unit) The way the AI behaves, they'll always target the unit with the lowest hp if in range, which more often than not is a mage, making the silencer particularly strong. Don't forget squires can equip crossbows too, so the equipment/ability combinations are endless.

The only reason you don't see me using them all the time is because i find archery/gunning a bit boring to watch, though they are an integral part of the game and it's more a matter of preference than a balance thing.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on October 17, 2015, 03:26:15 pm
Just some of my suggestions/more thoughts on the long ranged weapons (longbows, crossbows, and guns) issue: didn't mean to be late to the discussion. Not sure if these idea's/suggestion would help balance things out.

Current setup:
Weapon--> wp / w-ev/ range/ stats/ element/ special/ 2H / 2S/

Guns: formula WP*WP (concentrate innate)
Romanda Gun--> 10/0%/r8/st-0/el-N/sp-N/2H-N/2S-N/ can equip shield with it
Mythril Gun--> 8/0%/r6/+2MA/el-N/sp-N/2H-N/2S-N/can equip shield
Stone Gun--> 12/0%/r4/st-0/el-N/sp-initial petrify/2H-Forced/2S-N/1 or 2 units initial turn tied up
Blaze Gun--> 13/0%/r4/st-0/el-fire/sp-Fire2/2H-F/2S-N/ can be boosted,absorbed
Glacier Gun-->12/0%/r4/st-0/el-ice/sp-Ice2/2H-F/2S-N/ boosted,absorbed
Blast Gun--> 11/0%/r4/st-0/el-light/sp-Bolt2/2H-F/2S-N/ boosted, absorbed

Crossbows: formual PA*PA
**Bow Gun--> 10/0%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-50% armor break/2H-N/2S-N/ Can equip shield**...See note below**
Night Killer-->10/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-50% blind/2H-N/2S-N/ can equip shield
Silencer-->12/0%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-50% silence/2H-N/2S-N/ can equip shield
Poison Bow-->12/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-50% poison/2H-N/2S-N/can equip shield
Hunting Bow-->10/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-50% DM/2H-N/2S-N/can equip shield
Gastrafitis-->16/0%/st0/r4/el-N/sp-N/2H-F/2S-N


Longbows: [(PA + Sp) / 2] * WP, (arc range)
Longbow--> 12/10%/r7/st-1M/el-N/sp-N/2H-F/2S-N/arc range, go over obstacles+high ground adv
Silverbow-->14/10%/r6/st-1MA/el-Holy/sp-20% Holy/2H-F/2S-N/arc range, over obstacles, HG Adv
Ice bow--> 12/10%/r6/st-2MA,1SP/el-Ice/sp-25% stop/2H-F/2S-N/arc, over obs, HG Adv
Lightning bow--> 12/10%/r6/st-2MA,1SP/el-Light/sp-25% DA/2H-F/2S-N/arc, over, HG Adv
Windslash bow--> 12/10%/r6/st-1SP/el-wind/sp-20% hurricane/2H-F/2S-N/arc,over,HG Adv
Atheist bow--> 15/10%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-100% innocent/2H-F/2S-N/arc,over,HG adv
Utlimus bow--> 14/10%/r5/st-1PA/el-N/sp-N/2H-F/2S-N/arc,over,HG adv


**Bowguns I do not believe the armor break is working/triggering. I ran it against my dumbytestteam and let them get struck 35 times with bowgun armor break did not trigger once....**   <--disregard this I just found the shieldrender/bowgun armor break note, it works just doesn't animate.

(neither of these teams are legal what-so-ever just for testing purposes..), testing bowguns just to test bowguns and dumbytestteams just to test damage intake/output (they just sit there and get hit like a practice dumby...)

Player: Heroebal
Team: testing bowguns
Palettes: Black/Green
Last Revision: 2015-10-17

================================

Bowgun 1
male
aries
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
crystal shield
green beret
power sleeve
power wrist

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================

bowgun 2
male
sagittarius
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
escutcheon ii
green beret
brigandine
cherche

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================

bowgun 3
male
sagittarius
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
escutcheon ii
green beret
brigandine
cherche

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================

bowgun 4
male
sagittarius
70
40
squire
punch art
counter
concentrate
warpath
bow gun
escutcheon ii
green beret
brigandine
cherche

Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Wish
Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive

================================



Player: Heroebal
Team: Dumbytestteam
Palettes: White/Black
Last Revision: 2015-09-21

================================

dumby 1
Male
Serpentarius
40
40
Monk
Chivalry
Auto Potion
Unyielding

P Bag
H Bag
Chakra Band
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive
Nurse, Transfusion, Iron Will, Reraise

================================

dumby 2
Male
Serpentarius
40
40
Paladin
Item
Auto Potion
Unyielding

FS Bag
Persia
Chakra Band
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Nurse, Transfusion, Iron Will, Reraise
Hi-Potion, X-Potion, Ether, Hi-Ether, Antidote, Chrono's Tear, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

================================

dumby 3
Female
Serpentarius
40
40
Samurai
Basic Skill
Auto Potion
Unyielding

C Bag
C Bag
Chakra Band
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Murasame, Masamune
Focus, Heal, Wish

================================

dumby 4
Male
Serpentarius
40
40
Mime
Item
Auto Potion
Unyielding

C Bag
FS Bag
Grand Helmet
Maximillian
Iron Boots

Hi-Potion, X-Potion, Ether, Hi-Ether, Antidote, Chrono's Tear, Echo Grass, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, Holy Water, Bandage, Phoenix Down

================================


Suggested Changes/ideas:
Guns-->I think these are fine besides stone gun and maybe inclusion of the demi and other gun ideas.

Stone gun- I think something could be added to be worth being stoned off the start, as is I believe gastrafitis can do almost everything better than stone gun. I think stone guns best usage right now is constant unaviodable damage no matter what equipment set up for chemist/mediators. Archers with attack up or concentrated gassy's outperform it AFAIK.

I think maybe the earth elemental and/or earth spells ideas could help and/or maybe add some stats like either increased wp or +1-2pa or +1MA/1PA. Other ideas it could proc petrify or cancel earth dmg. <-- Some of these changes could make archer's punch art too strong though, I think A Monk/Dancer's Punch art still slightly outperform the archer's punch art, but if too much maybe archer's lose guns??

Crossbows-->
Bow Gun--> I believe this might be fine as is, now that I've seen it in action. Especially if you compare if with romanda gun (like Gaignun did above). Maybe a +1 or +2pa if anything.
Night Killer--> I think this could be 12 like silencer/poison bow or maybe 10wp add 50% add silence and/or slow
Silencer--> moves to longbow 15/10%/r4/el-N/sp-100% silence/rest same as longbow setup
Atheist bow--> becomes a crossbow 12 or 10WP/0%/r4/st0/el-N/sp-50% innocent/rest same as xbow setup
Poison bow--> renamed Hawk's Eye bow same stats but sp-50% add poison,oil
Hunting bow--> I think fine as is
Gastrafitis--> fine as is

Some of the elemental ideas could be implemented on the crossbows too.
**Silencer/atheist switch I think this might alleviate some of the innocent potency (w/ being able to equip shield as a trade off for no arc range/50% reduced proc, if equip shield too much then make it 2H-F). It would still giving longbow users an anti-mage option. .**

Longbows:
Just silencer becoming longbow and atheist bow moves over to xbows.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 17, 2015, 06:06:00 pm
I don't think stone gun or anything ranged for that matter should be able to proc petrify, but adding stats to the stone gun could be viable. I would also be okay with an earth elemental stone gun, but would the initial petrify be a good cost for elemental boosted damage?

I definitely agree with the silencer/atheist bow switch. Even though the Atheist Bow has only 4 range, the range also increases with hieght. As a crossbow, this range will stay at 4 and will be way less potent. It will also be a good way to make crossbows more useful.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 17, 2015, 06:16:29 pm
IDK about an Earth Elemental but Stone Gun needs a buff. I'd say don't make it 2H. While I'm okay with the range not being altered since...it is unevadable and can't even be effected by Blind, merely being allowed to equip a shield actually puts this gun on par with the Gastrafitis.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on October 17, 2015, 06:37:47 pm
If we leave stone gun two handed then I think increasing its range to 5 would be fine because 4 range is a bit crippling. It might as well be a shotgun.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 17, 2015, 06:55:32 pm
Meatbone Slash is more of an ability and ignores the special property of weapons

Used it with a two-handed Blood Sword. HP steal didn't apply.

Not sure if this is news or some hidden thing people "knew", but figured I'd let it be known otherwise.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Heroebal on October 17, 2015, 07:12:42 pm
Quote from: Barren on October 17, 2015, 06:37:47 pm
If we leave stone gun two handed then I think increasing its range to 5 would be fine because 4 range is a bit crippling. It might as well be a shotgun.


Too bad you couldn't make like the cone range damage like psp version has b/c then you could make it operate like a shotgun w/ spread dmg. I think that could be cool.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 17, 2015, 07:51:23 pm
One way to emulate a Shotgun would be to greatly increase the crit rate for a knockback effect.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 18, 2015, 07:33:02 am
Can crit rates be modified by weapon?  That would be a really cool feature.

What if we removed Stone Gun's initial petrify?  Would that be enough?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 18, 2015, 10:28:02 am
Quote from: Gaignun on October 18, 2015, 07:33:02 am
Can crit rates be modified by weapon?  That would be a really cool feature. ....


Yeah, I believe one of RavenOfRazgriz's (?) worksheets has this feature.  I know that it's part of one of the worksheets, anyway.

Quote from: Gaignun on October 18, 2015, 07:33:02 am
.... What if we removed Stone Gun's initial petrify?  Would that be enough?


Honestly, that sounds perfect to me.  This change alone would make it much more appealing, as it would no longer depend on at least one of four skills in order to function at all.  Chirijiraden is the perfect example of a "special needs" weapon that's balanced well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 18, 2015, 03:03:19 pm
I would be okay with stone gun loosing it's initial petrify. I still think it needs another benefit or difference from gastrafitis, but doing this is probably the best way to start.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 18, 2015, 09:23:36 pm
If we remove initial petrify, the name should probably change. I think I might be okay with that, though I don't think increasing its range to 5 would hurt either.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 19, 2015, 06:14:19 am
If we are keen to conform to the Ivalice universe, Final Fantasy XII provides many guns from which we can appropriate a name.  All guns are named after the brightest stars of their respective constellations.

Altair
Capella
Vega
Sirius
Betelgeuse
Ras Algethi
Aldebaran
Spica
Antares
Arcturus
Fomalhaut (Oh, beautiful Fomalhaut.  My low-level challenge would have been impossible without you.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 19, 2015, 05:57:06 pm
Quote from: Reks on October 13, 2015, 01:30:46 am
So largely it seems that there should be two new classes (Netherseer and Onion Knight)

Could write up stats and equips and such for them just to be more exact, but I'm bad at that.

So I'll recap what I can remember off the top of my head for retrospection and/or more ideas:

Change/Fix Ultima, Tsumazuku, Bad Luck
Largely removing speed altering
Netherseers and UnFury spells
Quaknado gaining CT
Shields losing largely losing elemental weakness/gaining more interesting resistances/buffs
Katana sword procs
Masamune yet again
Jump CT based on Jump Movement instead of Speed
Spears improve Jump Move instead of Speed
Samurai gains Spears and Bows (historical accuracy+ job improvements)
Paladins gain Flails, perhaps lose Katanas
Squires lose Books and gain Poles (historical accuracy + more room for offensive polemen/women)
Poison/Regen changes. MP versions as well?
Wizards raised above the current Wizard+ Scholars via MA
Summoners become MP oceans
Spell/Life Absorb becomes based on something other than max HP/MP%
Demi Gun, maybe a Cure Gun (Celdia's CCP2 has a gun that heals on hit instead, for example, but gotta watch that WP for abuse)


So there's that on the table


One more idea that I think most people agreed with was a reaction ability giving charging/performing units access to evasion. No idea what a name for that would be though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 20, 2015, 01:11:36 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on October 13, 2015, 08:22:02 pm
Summoner, Secondary, MP Switch, Support, Move-MP Up, Robe of Lords for an easy 250+ HP/MP and you've got yourself an interesting unit.
MP Switch on a martial arts monk would also be interesting since they have a decent base MP pool and high HP.

Can we get an always reflect item by the way? Just make it so reflect isn't active while dead like a salty rage unit.


Double post!!! (Not a fan of double posting usually but meh...)

I'd actually be in favor of reflect being active while dead. I agree with WKW, it should be on the Reflect Ring so Cursed Ring users can't dodge Raise 2 permanently. But...I'd say to the team using Raise/Raise 2...if your Always: Reflect unit goes down...you need to have a different form of revival to support. Isn't this how it is in Vanilla? (I could be wrong. Haven't played Vanilla is a little while.)

I think we'd actually see a higher number of people putting the Reflect Ring on their users with Raise 2...

Edit: I see one of my favorite team builders often lurking...I wonder if said person will come back to Arena??? Guess we'll find out...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 23, 2015, 02:30:51 am

I really question whether Raise should restore 45% HP instead of 50. Because at 50% HP or above, the AI will not bother healing. This means you have a revived unit but he remains at ~50% HP, which makes him an easy target. On the flip side, some may choose Raise over something like Revive or Fairy because they judge its not necessary to heal above 50% and just jump right back into the action instead of wasting an extra turn healing. So my question is, do you prefer your unit staying at 50-60% HP or you'd rather have them heal themselves or be healed beyond that?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 23, 2015, 10:30:54 am
I'm one of those people that uses Raise so my units don't bother "wasting" a turn or two healing.  I would switch to Raise 2 and make it work somehow if Raise's healing is lowered to 45%.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 23, 2015, 11:36:43 am
I use Raise for the speed and accuracy, but as Andrew said...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 23, 2015, 11:48:14 am
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on October 23, 2015, 02:30:51 am
I really question whether Raise should restore 45% HP instead of 50. Because at 50% HP or above, the AI will not bother healing. This means you have a revived unit but he remains at ~50% HP, which makes him an easy target. On the flip side, some may choose Raise over something like Revive or Fairy because they judge its not necessary to heal above 50% and just jump right back into the action instead of wasting an extra turn healing. So my question is, do you prefer your unit staying at 50-60% HP or you'd rather have them heal themselves or be healed beyond that?


Yeah, I wouldn't touch Raise, really. Raise 2 is obviously always great, but it works best on teams that might be a bit slower and have higher HP and/or tankier units. It's kinda slow, but it's worth the risk of having the enemy, who is often going to be faster than you, waste two or more turns taking down the unit that got hit with Raise 2.

I use Raise usually under the following circumstances:
1. I don't have enough JP to get Raise 2
2. I can't get short charge and Raise 2 together, and I'm worried about my Raise 2s getting midcharged.
3. I'm using a strategy that having Raise instead of Raise 2 would help propel (Balance or Moonlight would be obvious choices).
4. I'm trying to manipulate CT where having Raise would benefit me over Raise 2 (for example, having a dual wielding thief be faster than by Raise user...then the Raise user would cast Raise just in time for the thief to get a turn and advance where Raise 2 would make the thief miss his/her turn.)

So shifting it down by 5 won't affect much about the first 3 (tiny nerf, tiny nerf and tiny buff respectively) but it could hugely impact number 4. If said thief has item or something and decides to heal instead of attack, then my strategy goes out the window. (Of course, then it would just mean you can't use that strategy any more which isn't the end of the world...still though...something to note.)

One thing I will mention is that while at 50% HP they won't go for a direct heal, they will go for healing buffs at anything less than 100%. Spells like Reraise, Wall, Regen, Iron Will/Protect Shell, Mad Science...and of course always Nurse cuz the AI loves that ability.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 23, 2015, 12:13:23 pm
I don't really know if raise should be lowered to 45%. I also use raise primarily for the accuracy on low faith teams where raise 2 is not a viable option. If your unit has regen or move-HP up, it really isn't too much of a problem and I like to have my units get right back into fighting instead of healing.

Speaking of raise/raise 2, I encountered a problem when designing Wind Walkers for the first time. My Scholar would midcharge Raise 2 with Fairy (or was it fairy with raise?), rendering it useless and wasting turns. It's probably a spell CT/AI thing, but I just wanted to mention that if anyone else has had the same issue.

Also, Fairy has the same CT as raise, but only recovers 33% HP. I remember someone saying that fairy's HP healing was insufficient but I may be imagining things. Really, I don't think the AOE of fairy really justifies the much lower accuracy or the lower healing, so I think fairy could get at least a hit percentage buff if anything.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on October 23, 2015, 12:25:56 pm
Quote from: dw6561 on October 23, 2015, 12:13:23 pm
<snip>

Also, Fairy has the same CT as raise, but only recovers 33% HP. I remember someone saying that fairy's HP healing was insufficient but I may be imagining things. Really, I don't think the AOE of fairy really justifies the much lower accuracy or the lower healing, so I think fairy could get at least a hit percentage buff if anything.


What if Fairy's healing, accuracy, and JP cost were increased to 50%, Hit_F(MA+80%) and 300?  An AoE Raise with a lower chance to land sounds fine to me... perhaps it could become a better counter to hard-hitting AoE damage skills?  (Especially in small maps)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 25, 2015, 04:56:08 am
I don't mind it being 33% healing (though I wouldn't mind more accuracy either), however I find it inconvenient that Summon Magic lacks status recovery. Maybe something could be thrown alongside Dead, like Cancel: Dead - <blank> - <blank>. Lots of possibilities here so I've left blank for discussion if people agree on it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: reinoe on October 25, 2015, 02:40:43 pm
Hello everyone.  This is something I'm pretty shocked hasn't been mentioned yet.  With many of the HP totals increasing previously, I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention of Green Beret and Flashhat.  These two items received no adjustments with the most recent update.  Furthermore with BLACK HOOD getting 30 mp, it makes these two items nearly obsolete.

I would propose that

Both Green Beret and Flash hat receive +15 HP and +20 MP.  This way if someone wants MP they don't simply default to Blackhood or Golden Hairpin.

Furthermore The MOVE+1 and Elemental resistance should make them more competitive with Black Hood's raw HP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on October 25, 2015, 03:52:42 pm
Quote from: reinoe on October 25, 2015, 02:40:43 pm
Hello everyone.  This is something I'm pretty shocked hasn't been mentioned yet.  With many of the HP totals increasing previously, I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention of Green Beret and Flashhat.  These two items received no adjustments with the most recent update.  Furthermore with BLACK HOOD getting 30 mp, it makes these two items nearly obsolete.

I would propose that

Both Green Beret and Flash hat receive +15 HP and +20 MP.  This way if someone wants MP they don't simply default to Blackhood or Golden Hairpin.

Furthermore The MOVE+1 and Elemental resistance should make them more competitive with Black Hood's raw HP.


I personally use the Green Beret far more than any other hat. I love the movement, even if the HP provided isn't as much as the Black Hood. Flash Hat could use a slight buff, but do remember that it halves three different elements and tends to be used on defensive units to resist Ninjas and Scholars
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on October 25, 2015, 04:25:59 pm
I wouldn't mind the flash hat or the green beret getting some more MP.

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on October 25, 2015, 04:56:08 am
I don't mind it being 33% healing (though I wouldn't mind more accuracy either), however I find it inconvenient that Summon Magic lacks status recovery. Maybe something could be thrown alongside Dead, like Cancel: Dead - <blank> - <blank>. Lots of possibilities here so I've left blank for discussion if people agree on it.


How about cancel: dead, stop, and something like undead? This way it can be used to counter stop. Esuna could do the same, but I think it has plenty of statuses right now as does stigma magic. As a side note, would making it cure both undead and dead allow it to raise undead characters, or is undead coded in such a way that it is not possible?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on October 26, 2015, 03:13:51 am
uhhhhh the extra Move/Jump and elemental resistance already give plenty of reason to use Green Beret / Flash Hat over Black Hood... I'd prob use Flash Hat over Black Hood in most situations, honestly. Both of those hats are seeing plenty of use. I think Arena's Head / Body equips are at an excellent place in that they're basically all viable / usable -> there's no obvious choice -> interesting decisions.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 26, 2015, 07:00:55 am
I'm going to go with the popular opinion that Raise stays at 50% for reasons that silentkaster mentioned.

@dw6561: Concerning Fairy, I suggested increasing Fairy's healing to 50% at the cost of +1 CT back in July. A few people were for it, but Shintroy raised a dissenting opinion. The discussion pretty much ended there.

Be that as it may, I am glad to see others independently suggest that Fairy could use a buff.  If everyone cannot be convinced by my suggestion for 50% healing, then I personally would settle for adding status healing of some sort instead.  Cancel: Undead would be cool since there are currently so few ways to heal this status.  I wouldn't want to make Summon Magic too robust against status ailments, though, since the skillset is already pretty versatile.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 26, 2015, 05:45:04 pm
That would hurt them for 33% HP before curing the status. I wonder if the AI would use something like that. Well, it might... *glares at Lancer "waking up" an ally*

Berserk is also difficult to heal. I imagine the Fairy appease the enraged individual with calming words.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 27, 2015, 07:18:04 am
It is certainly worth testing!  Counter Tackle and Transfusion already self-inflict HP damage.  Finding new situations in which this behaviour applies could expand this class of skills.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on October 28, 2015, 04:27:41 pm
I was thinking about the Nether Seer's Raise ability. I was thinking that instead of having it be like any of the other revival methods, that it Raises like Cursed Ring...perhaps not undead but with a random amount of HP. Since it's already been mentioned, should the % chance for it to hit be based on unfury?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on October 29, 2015, 03:09:19 am
Revival with random HP would be neat if achievable.  I am for it!
Edit: Upon implementation, it might be worthwhile to inspect the algorithm that determines Phoenix Down's or the Undead status's heal amount.  I am wondering if there is some value that determines this amount's deviation.

Concerning the formula modifier, the choice between UnFury and UnFaith is basically a choice between mages and melee units (... fighters after D&D?).  UnFury is strong against mages and incompatible with fighters, and UnFaith is strong against fighters and incompatible with mages.

(By incompatibility, I mean that the Netherseer and its teammates cannot heal and support each other well with their respective skills.)

At present, I believe we already have many skillsets compatible with mages, but comparatively few with fighters.  White, Summon, and Black magicks can be used to heal multiple high-faith units at once.  On the other hand, only Punch Art's Earth Slash can be used to heal multiple high-fury units at once.  Hence, high-fury teams typically fall back on weaker forms of healing and revival, such as Item.  This imbalance is what makes damage control on high-fury teams comparatively difficult.

Consequently, I believe that making all Nethermagicks UnFaith, including revival, would be more satisfactory for the sake of variety.  Would others be inclined to agree?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on October 29, 2015, 03:49:06 am
I believe UnFaith would be better as well. I did say something of a similar degree a while back. I'll quote myself for easier reference:

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 14, 2015, 04:56:10 am
Nether spells: Not really a reply to anything, just a thought. I think it's a nice idea, but they really should be UnFaith-based. 40/40 units aren't that common builds and are hardly a threat. 40/70 units take more damage from regular spells. The 70/40 units are the real threat to Wizards. UnFaith Nethers would still work on the 40/40 units as well.


While I was wrong about 40/40 units (they can be, in fact, quite threatening), the rest still applies.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am
Many proposals have been thrown around over the last few months. (Thank you for your input everybody!)

Accordingly, I have assembled another proposal summary to help everybody who has not been closely following the discussions get on the same page.  I tried to include every proposal that occurred in the last ~20 pages or so.  This should be the most comprehensive summary to date. Proposals that raised a hitherto unsettled debate, as well as those intended for patches beyond 1.40 (e.g., Lancer skillset redesign, Onion Knight, MP Regen, monsters?), are omitted.

I sneaked in a few minor ones of my own as well (e.g., (Hi-)Ether restoring an extra 10 MP).  Concerning shields, at least one status immunity is added to the elemental shields.  It would be much appreciated if people could provide input on these immunities.

If there are other proposals that are not included here, or if there are proposals that are in conflict with what is written here, please let me know and I'll accommodate them.

Skills/items that could use a redesign, but require a consensus:
Ninjutsu's Tsumazuku
Cloth weapon class
Shieldrender (sword) (I personally would prefer a radical redesign rather than an incremental change)
Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan, Holy Lance (spears) (Preferably redesigned for balanced two-hand use to accommodate Samurai)


SQUIRE: Can now equip helmets and poles. Can no longer equip books
PALADIN: +5 C-EV. Can now equip flails. Can no longer equip katana
MONK: -15 MP, -1 PA
THIEF: -1 PA, +5 C-EV
TIME MAGE: Can now equip poles
SUMMONER: +20 MP
LANCER: +1 SP, -1 Jump
SAMURAI: +1 PA, -1 MA. Can now equip spears and longbows
SCHOLAR: Redesigned (See "New Jobs")
BARD: No change OR merged with Dancer
DANCER: No change OR merged with Bard


BASIC SKILL
Heal: Range increased from 1 to 3, now also heals Innocent and Sadness
Yell: Now also adds Regen
Wish: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80
Ultima: Add smart-targeting, reduce CT to 4 too?

ITEM
Ether: MP heal increased from 30 to 40
Hi-Ether: MP heal increased from 70 to 80
Maintenance: Changed to a movement ability?

SNIPE
Hawk's Eye: No longer bypasses Blind.

PUNCH ART
Revive: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80

WHITE MAGIC
Protect: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Protect, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100
Shell: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Shell, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100.
Regen: Moved to Lore

BLACK MAGIC
Poison: Moved to Lore
Frog: Moved to Yin Yang Magic
Death: Moved to Lore
Bio: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Bio 2: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Magic Missile: New skill, Dmg_Fury(MA*WP), Weapon element, Weapon proc (if possible), 4 Rng, 6 MP, 0 CT, 150 JP (Essentially a ranged melee attack at the cost of MP.  Enabling the weapon proc will promote synergy with Fire/Ice/Thunder/Poison/Dragon rods)

TIME MAGIC
Haste: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Slow: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Stop: Accuracy modifier decreased from 70 to 65
Balance: Moved to Lore
Half of MP: Inherited from Summon Magic

SUMMON MAGIC
Titan: Now ignores M-EV, MP cost increased from 25 to 35, JP cost increased from 150 to 250
Carbunkle: MP cost removed
Fairy: AoE increased from 1 to 2.  Now cancels Berserk as well.
MP Switch: New reaction ability. Incurred damage removes MP instead of HP; excess damage removes HP. 300 JP
Half of MP: Moved to Time Magic

STEAL
Heretic: Moved to Ninjutsu
Good Luck: New skill. 100% add: Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison, 0 CT, 0 MP, Allies only, 200 JP
Bad Luck: 100% add: Poison, Death Sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen, 0 CT, 0 MP, Enemies only, 200 JP
Quickening: Removed from the game
Awareness: Moved to Lore
Damage Split: Inherited from Lore

YIN YANG MAGIC
Spell Absorb: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max MP. MP cost removed.
Life Steal: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max HP.  CT reduced from 3 to 1.
Dispel Magic: Now also removes Stop, Fury, and Sadness
Frog: Inherited from Black Magic

JUMP
CT formula changed from 50/SP to 21/Jump
Equip Polearm: Now also allows cloths to be equipped

DRAW OUT
Bizen Boat: AoE reduced from 2 to 1. Range increased from 0 to 1.
Heaven's Cloud: Made PA-based. No longer adds Slow.  Possible formula: (1) Dmg_(PA*6) and 3 AoE, (2) Dmg_(PA*7) and 2 AoE.
Muramasa: Death Sentence proc rate increased from 20% to 25%
Masamune: No longer adds Regen. Now 1 AoE in all directions (like old times).

NINJUTSU
Heretic: Received from Steal
Misogi: New skill, Removes Blind/Silence/Poison/Slow/Don't Move, Self-target, 0 CT, 0 MP, 100 JP
Shuriken: Dmg_(3*SP+80), 0 MP, 0 CT, MV Rng, 33% Add: Poison, M-Evadable, 150 JP
Speed +1: New movement ability. Adds 1 SP. 500 JP.

LORE
See "New Jobs"

DANCE
Nameless Dance: No longer adds Slow.  Now adds Death Sentence.


Scholar
Description: Redesigned as a battle mage. Combines the reliability of a tank with the utility of a support mage.  With the status resistance afforded by shields and heavy armor, this class is suited for status management.
--- Male | Female
HP 134 | 125
MP 086 | 092
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 08 | 10
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 0 | 0
Can equip Sword, Rod, Staff, Book, Pole, Shield, Helmet, Armor, Robe, Accessory

LORE
Mad Science: Given to Nether Magic
Bio: Given to Black Magic
Bio 2: Given to Black Magic
Bio 3: Removed from the game
Poison: Inherited from Black Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Regen: Inherited from White Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Balance: Inherited from Time Magic
Death: Inherited from Black Magic
Tornado: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Protect/Shell, Wind element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Quake:  Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Haste/Regen, Earth element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert,  3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Damage Split: Given to Steal
Distribute: Given to Nether Magic
Awareness: Inherited from Steal, now also applies EV even when charging/performing
Cleanse: New reaction ability. Remove Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Oil, Slow, Innocent, and Sadness when taking HP damage. 200 JP
Equip Magegear: Now also allows instruments to be equipped

Netherseer
Description: A new class with a Middle Eastern aesthetic. A glass cannon not unlike Wizards, its skillset provides low-faith, high PA teams with a method for AoE damage/absorption, as well as resurrection.
--- Male | Female
HP 113 | 106
MP 072 | 077
SP 08 | 08
PA 12 | 10
MA 06 | 08
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Ninjatou, Katana, Book, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robe, Accessory

NETHER MAGIC
*Note: UF means "UnFaith"*
Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Dark: Dmg_UF(PA*15), Dark elemental, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 300 JP
Mad Science: Inherited from Lore. Formula changed to Hit_UF(PA+90)%. CT reduced from 4 to 3.
Nether Raise: Heal_Rnd(1~100%), Hit_UF(PA+75%), 5 Rng, 0 AoE, 3 CT, 15 MP, Reflectable, 200 JP
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Distribute: Inherited from Lore


SWORDS
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

KATANA
All katana are now forced two-hands and are no longer dual-wieldable.
Asura Knife: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, Fire element, 50% Cast: Asura, Strengthen: Fire removed
Kotetsu Knife: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kotetsu, Strengthen: Dark removed
Bizen Boat: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Bizen Boat
Murasame: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, Restore HP, Immune: Berserk
Heaven's Cloud: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Heaven's Cloud
Kiyomori: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kiyomori
Muramasa: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Muramasa
Kikuichimonji: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kikuichimonji
Masamune: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, 2 Rng, -1 SP, Always: Haste, Immune: Slow
Chirijiraden: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, +1 SP, Initial: Berserk

STAVES
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

GUNS
Stone Gun: Init: Petrify removed
Healing Gun: Replaces Mythril Gun. 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, Restores HP, Forced 2H
Demi Gun: New spellgun. 6 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Rng, ignores EV, 100% Cast: Demi

CROSSBOWS
Night Killer: WP increased from 10 to 12
Bacchus Bow: Replaces Poison Bow. 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Fury
Atheist Bow: Replaces Silencer, 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Innocent
Hunting Bow: WP increased from 10 to 12

LONGBOWS
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Silence Bow: Replaces Atheist Bow, 15 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, 100% Add: Silence

SPEARS
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, gains +2 Jump
Obelisk: Gains +1 Jump

POLES
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H (no change)

BAGS
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add Immune: Poison


All elemental weaknesses are removed.  Status immunities are added in their place.
Genji Shield: 25 P-EV, 0 M-EV, +1 PA, Immune: Blind
Aegis Shield: 0 P-EV, 25 M-EV, +1 MA, Immune: Silence
Zephyr Shield: 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, +1 SP
Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Water, Immune: Faith, Innocent, Fury, Sadness
Gold Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Wind, Immune: Don't Move
Flame Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Poison, Oil
Ice Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Ice, Immune: Slow
Diamond Shield: 5 P-EV, 25 M-EV, Absorb: Holy, Immune: Charm
Platina Shield: 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Absorb: Dark, Immune: Undead
Mirror Shield: Replaces Crystal Shield. 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield. 0 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen
Kaiser Plate: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Strengthen: Ice, Wind, Dark
Escutcheon II: 25 P-EV, 25 M-EV


HEADBANDS
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Init: Haste, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

ROBES
Light Robe: Add Immune: Poison

HELMETS
Genji Helmet: Add Always: Berserk

ARMOR
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Crystal Mail: Add Immune: Stop, Remove Immune: Faith/Innocent


Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump
Reflect Ring: Now Always: Reflect
N-Kai Armlet: Add Immune: Blind
108 Gems: Add Immune: Faith/Innocent/Fury/Sadness/Poison


Fury: Set Brave to 100
Sadness: Set Brave to 0 (or 10 if anything lower than 10 triggers the Chicken status).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 05, 2015, 09:08:13 am
Question about katana being forced two hands? Does this mean that samurais will lose innate two hands then? And if they don't lose innate two hands, how will samurais benefit with katanas being now forced two hands. I agree it should no longer be dual wieldable. Two sword katanas aren't worth much besides from maybe two chirijiradens but that's about it
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 05, 2015, 10:04:31 am
I actually agree with that. I tried using two sworded heaven's cloud with short edge once, and it didn't deal enough damage to be viable. It was a good concept too, ninja with snipe that breaks stuff then slows you...

I think the current katanas are great on samurai but not so much on other classes. Asura and Koutetsu Knife boost themselves, sure. But on a southern crossing-Paladin the low WP is a crutch. Heaven's Cloud and Bizen Boat are probably underused (from what I've seen, maybe they just haven't seen any interest lately) because of the absense of elemental boosting and the 100% status proc not being worth the damage output. At least with ninja swords, you get damage partially based off of speed so you can stack stats to make them even more potent. Masamune really needs no explanation.

Is there any way to balance katanas for other classes as well, keeping samurai in mind? If they loose the elemental aspect, they should go up in WP in my opinion. They shouldn't be forced two hands though. Paladins will certainly not benefit from this, making them even worse on Paladin than they are now, and samurai will suffer as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 05, 2015, 10:19:05 am
Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am
Many proposals have been thrown around over the last few months. (Thank you for your input everybody!)

Accordingly, I have assembled another proposal summary to help everybody who has not been closely following the discussions get on the same page.  I tried to include every proposal that occurred in the last ~20 pages or so.  This should be the most comprehensive summary to date. Proposals that raised a hitherto unsettled debate, as well as those intended for patches beyond 1.40 (e.g., Lancer skillset redesign, Onion Knight, MP Regen, monsters?), are omitted.

I sneaked in a few minor ones of my own as well (e.g., (Hi-)Ether restoring an extra 10 MP).  Concerning shields, at least one status immunity is added to the elemental shields.  It would be much appreciated if people could provide input on these immunities.

If there are other proposals that are not included here, or if there are proposals that are in conflict with what is written here, please let me know and I'll accommodate them.

Skills/items that could use a redesign, but require a consensus:
Ninjutsu's Tsumazuku
Cloth weapon class
Shieldrender (sword) (I personally would prefer a radical redesign rather than an incremental change)
Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan, Holy Lance (spears) (Preferably redesigned for balanced two-hand use to accommodate Samurai)


Cool! Thanks for doing that...I'll comment on what I think below. (Were we talking about MP Regen and Monsters for a future, beyond 1.40 patch? Either way, it's fine.)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

SQUIRE: Can now equip helmets and poles. Can no longer equip books
PALADIN: +5 C-EV. Can now equip flails. Can no longer equip katana
MONK: -15 MP, -1 PA
THIEF: -1 PA, +5 C-EV
TIME MAGE: Can now equip poles
SUMMONER: +20 MP
LANCER: +1 SP, -1 Jump
SAMURAI: +1 PA, -1 MA. Can now equip spears and longbows
SCHOLAR: Redesigned (See "New Jobs")
BARD: No change OR merged with Dancer
DANCER: No change OR merged with Bard


I guess those are fine? Why is Monk losing PA and MP? Even with the change to the Headbands you're proposing, I think just losing MP would be fine, or perhaps just losing the PA but both seems kinda unnecessary. Pretty fine with everything else.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

BASIC SKILL
Heal: Range increased from 1 to 3, now also heals Innocent and Sadness
Yell: Now also adds Regen
Wish: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80
Ultima: Add smart-targeting, reduce CT to 4 too?

ITEM
Ether: MP heal increased from 30 to 40
Hi-Ether: MP heal increased from 70 to 80
Maintenance: Changed to a movement ability?

SNIPE
Hawk's Eye: No longer bypasses Blind. Now takes weapon's element into account.

PUNCH ART
Revive: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80

WHITE MAGIC
Protect: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Protect, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100
Shell: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Shell, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100.
Regen: Moved to Lore

BLACK MAGIC
Poison: Moved to Lore
Frog: Moved to Yin Yang Magic
Death: Moved to Lore
Bio: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Bio 2: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Magic Missile: New skill, Dmg_Fury(MA*WP), Weapon element, Weapon proc (if possible), 4 Rng, 6 MP, 0 CT, 150 JP (Essentially a ranged melee attack at the cost of MP.  Enabling the weapon proc will promote synergy with Fire/Ice/Thunder/Poison/Dragon rods)

TIME MAGIC
Haste: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Slow: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Stop: Accuracy modifier decreased from 70 to 65
Balance: Moved to Lore
Half of MP: Inherited from Summon Magic

SUMMON MAGIC
Titan: Now ignores M-EV, MP cost increased from 25 to 35, JP cost increased from 150 to 250
Carbunkle: MP cost removed
Fairy: AoE increased from 1 to 2.  Now cancels Berserk as well.
MP Switch: New reaction ability. Incurred damage removes MP instead of HP; excess damage removes HP. 300 JP
Half of MP: Moved to Time Magic

STEAL
Heretic: Moved to Ninjutsu
Good Luck: New skill. 100% add: Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison, 0 CT, 0 MP, Allies only
Bad Luck: 100% add: Poison, Death Sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen, 0 CT, 0 MP, Enemies only
Quickening: Removed from the game
Awareness: Moved to Lore
Damage Split: Inherited from Lore

YIN YANG MAGIC
Spell Absorb: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max MP. MP cost removed.
Life Steal: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max HP.  CT reduced from 3 to 1.
Dispel Magic: Now also removes Slow and Stop
Frog: Received from Black Magic

JUMP
CT formula changed from 50/SP to 21/Jump
Equip Polearm: Now also allows cloths to be equipped

DRAW OUT
Bizen Boat: AoE reduced from 2 to 1. Range increased from 0 to 1.
Heaven's Cloud: Formula changed to Dmg_(PA*6), AoE increase from 2 to 3. No longer adds Slow.
Muramasa: Death Sentence proc rate increased from 20% to 25%
Masamune: No longer adds Regen. Now 1 AoE in all directions (like old times).

NINJUTSU
Heretic: Received from Steal
Misogi: New skill, Removes Blind/Silence/Poison/Slow/Don't Move, Self-target, 0 CT, 0 MP, 100 JP
Shuriken: Dmg_(3*SP+80), 0 MP, 0 CT, MV Rng, 33% Add: Poison, M-Evadable, 150 JP
Speed UP: New movement ability. Adds 1 SP. 500 JP.

LORE
See "New Jobs"

DANCE
Nameless Dance: No longer adds Slow.  Now adds Death Sentence.


Scholar
Description: Redesigned as a battle mage. Combines the reliability of a tank with the utility of a support mage.  With the status resistance afforded by shields and heavy armor, this class is suited for status management.
--- Male | Female
HP 134 | 125
MP 086 | 092
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 08 | 10
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 0 | 0
Can equip Sword, Rod, Staff, Book, Pole, Shield, Helmet, Armor, Robe, Accessory

LORE
Mad Science: Given to Nether Magic
Bio: Given to Black Magic
Bio 2: Given to Black Magic
Bio 3: Removed from the game
Poison: Inherited from Black Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Regen: Inherited from White Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Balance: Inherited from Time Magic
Death: Inherited from Black Magic
Tornado: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Protect/Shell, Wind element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Quake:  Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Haste/Regen, Earth element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert,  3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Damage Split: Given to Steal
Distribute: Given to Nether Magic
Awareness: Inherited from Steal, now also applies EV even when charging/performing
Cleanse: New reaction ability. Remove Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Oil, Slow, Innocent, and Sadness when taking HP damage. 200 JP
Equip Magegear: Now also allows instruments to be equipped

Netherseer
Description: A new class with a Middle Eastern aesthetic. A glass cannon not unlike Wizards, its skillset provides low-faith, high PA teams with a method for AoE damage/absorption, as well as resurrection.
--- Male | Female
HP 113 | 106
MP 072 | 077
SP 08 | 08
PA 12 | 10
MA 06 | 08
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Ninjatou, Katana, Book, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robe, Accessory

NETHER MAGIC
*Note: UF means "UnFaith"*
Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Dark: Dmg_UF(PA*15), Dark elemental, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 300 JP
Mad Science: Inherited from Lore. Formula changed to Hit_UF(PA+90)%. CT reduced from 4 to 3.
Nether Raise: Heal_Rnd(1~100%), Hit_UF(PA+75%), 5 Rng, 0 AoE, 3 CT, 15 MP, Reflectable, 200 JP
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Distribute: Inherited from Lore



If I don't comment about something, it means I'm fairly indifferent or in mild support of the ability.
Maintenance being moved to Movement? I'm okay with that. Although it's not a movement ability in the sense of the word, I think it will see a lot more use when switching there. Not a bad idea.

Hawk's Eye already is Weapon Elemental. I thought it wasn't until seeing a recent match where a unit stepped in front of her ally being targeted with Hawk's Eye in order to receive healing. It just needs to be changed in the Master Guide.

With Dispel Magic...for some reason, the AI loves using that spell...probably because most players carry Haste on their team and the AI tries to get rid of it so frequently. If it got rid of Slow, carrying the spell could become cumbersome as I think the AI would just spam it. I was thinking perhaps if we want to add something to Dispel Magic, we could add getting rid of Stop and perhaps Innocent/Faith/Sadness/Fury (though be aware the AI would likely associate Sadness and Innocent as Negative status while considering Fury and Faith as positive status).

With Speed UP, I'm assuming that you don't mean the unit gains +1 Speed with every Movement on the Map and that you mean just add +1 Speed to the base stat. In that case, can we call it Speed +1 instead of Speed UP? With Move-MP UP and Move-HP UP these imply as you move around the map you gain MP and HP respectively. Defense UP and Magic Defend UP imply a 1/3 boost in those stats. Move +1 grants an extra +1 Move like you're proposing to do for speed so I'd prefer to keep those consistent if possible.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

SWORDS
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

KATANA
All katana are now forced two-hands and are no longer dual-wieldable.
Asura Knife: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, Fire element, 50% Cast: Asura, Strengthen: Fire removed
Kotetsu Knife: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kotetsu, Strengthen: Dark removed
Bizen Boat: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Bizen Boat
Murasame: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, Restore HP, Immune: Berserk
Heaven's Cloud: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Heaven's Cloud
Kiyomori: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kiyomori
Muramasa: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Muramasa
Kikuichimonji: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kikuichimonji
Masamune: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, 2 Rng, -1 SP, Always: Haste, Immune: Slow
Chirijiraden: 15 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 SP, Initial: Berserk

STAVES
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

GUNS
Stone Gun: Init: Petrify removed
Healing Gun: Replaces Mythril Gun. 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, Restores HP, Forced 2H
Demi Gun: New spellgun. 6 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Rng, ignores EV, 100% Cast: Demi

CROSSBOWS
Night Killer: WP increased from 10 to 12
Bacchus Bow: Replaces Poison Bow. 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Fury
Atheist Bow: Replaces Silencer, 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Innocent
Hunting Bow: WP increased from 10 to 12

LONGBOWS
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Silence Bow: Replaces Atheist Bow, 15 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, 100% Add: Silence

SPEARS
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, gains +2 Jump
Obelisk: Gains +1 Jump

POLES
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H (no change)

BAGS
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add Immune: Poison



I'm not so sure about Katanas becoming forced 2H. One thing that you're doing for Samurai is adding a point of PA. One unique ability the Samurai already has is to 2H any weapon it carriers if it is indeed 2 Hands but now that unique ability almost gets forced out. Giving them spears might help a bit, but then that's the only options the Samurai get for 2H and...eh...I'm not sure about that. I might agree with making SOME katana forced 2H but not all of them. For example, with the proposed Masamune, I'd argue that should be forced 2H because it seems pretty good. But some of the others, I'd say just lower the WP and let them be 2H. IDK...thoughts on this?

As far as the rods...Octagon rod casting frog instead of direct proc at a higher percentage is interesting. It would be evadable and faith based I'd assume? Still, being 2H, I'd like to see the proc percentage lowered from 50%...I believe that's a little too high. I assume the same for Ivory Rod (an evadable Stop spell being cast) but IDK. I think I'd still like to see that lowered.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

All elemental weaknesses are removed.  Status immunities are added in their place.
Genji Shield: 25 P-EV, 0 M-EV, +1 PA, Immune: Blind
Aegis Shield: 0 P-EV, 25 M-EV, +1 MA, Immune: Silence
Zephyr Shield: 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, +1 SP
Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Earth, Immune: Faith, Innocent, Fury, Sadness
Gold Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Lightning, Immune: Don't Move
Flame Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Poison, Oil
Ice Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Ice, Immune: Slow
Diamond Shield: 5 P-EV, 25 M-EV, Absorb: Holy, Immune: Charm
Platina Shield: 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Absorb: Dark, Immune: Undead
Mirror Shield: Replaces Crystal Shield. 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield. 0 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen
Escutcheon II: 25 P-EV, 25 M-EV


No comments on this section, really. I'm fine with everything.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

HEADBANDS
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Init: Haste, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

ROBES
Light Robe: Add Immune: Poison

HELMETS
Genji Helmet: Add Always: Berserk

ARMOR
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Crystal Mail: Add Immune: Stop, Remove Immune: Faith/Innocent


Pretty fine with those changes too.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump
Reflect Ring: Now Always: Reflect
N-Kai Armlet: Add Immune: Blind
108 Gems: Add Immune: Faith/Innocent/Fury/Sadness/Poison


I'd like to either get an extra accessory or modify an existing accessory to absorb Water. Probably Wind too. These two elements only have two things in the game that absorb them if I'm not mistaken. Maybe combine one with Holy Absorb? Only one accessory absorbs Holy also. I also think Defense Ring absorbing two elements is a bit overkill.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

Fury: Set Brave to 100
Sadness: Set Brave to 0 (or 10 if anything lower than 10 triggers the Chicken status).



Seems fine to me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 11:01:28 am
A few responses:


I'll provide a summary concerning this change to the best of my ability.

On page 88, WKW proposed making katana force-2H in exchange for a WP boost.  I believe his intention was to make katana a more powerful version of knight swords so that Paladins had a reason to consider using one over the other.  At the same time he also suggested that innate 2H be moved from Samurai to Lancer.  I personally was against this second suggestion since two-handed spears on Lancers would outperform Lancers' own Jump ability.

Later on Shintroy backed the force-2H proposal, and meanwhile suggested that Paladin lose katana and gain flails.  Personally, I think the opportunity cost of a Paladin equipping a force-2H katana is too high even with the WP boost; if a Paladin is going to surrender his shield, it's hard to settle for anything other than the excellent set of knight swords we currently have.  Therefore, I am fine with Paladin losing katana.  In exchange, Netherseer, a glass cannon with much higher PA and no access to knight swords nor shields, gets katana as its go-to WP weapon.

At around the same time, Reks (and Barren?) suggested that katana receive Draw Out procs.

What is currently seen is my best attempt at combining WKW's, Shintroy's, and Reks' (and Barren's?) individual suggestions: Katana that are force-2H, have high WP, proc their respective Draw Out abilities where appropriate, and cannot be equipped by Paladin.  I have no idea if this combination satisfies anybody, even WKW, Shintroy, or Reks... (or Barren?)


Nope!  Not as far as I can tell.
Samurai's two-handable weapons are now spears.  However, these spears need to be designed!  Even if we scrap the idea of making katana force-2H, then these spears will still need to be designed, so feel free to pitch in/reiterate your suggestions.


To be brutally honest, these changes are primarily intended to keep monks from wrecking house with Nether Magic.  Currently, AoE skills are primarily MA-based, and no job has higher than 12 base MA.  With Nether Magic becoming the first PA-based AoE skill set, I thought it was fitting to reign in Monks' PA a bit.  To retain Monks' current damage output with Punch Art skills, we can do one of two things:

1. Introduce a headband that grants +1 PA, but does not grant any MP for Nether Magic spam.  This is what is currently written down.  The headband that gets this +1 PA is the headband that is currently weakest in the meta-game: Choice Band
2. Increase the multiplier of Punch Art skills by 1.  In this case, Choice Band would not get +1 PA, but would be redesigned in some other way.

Now that I think about it, I kind of like the second option more.


Sure, we can remove Cancel: Slow.  I think the primary suggestion was to add Cancel: Stop.  Cancel: Slow was thrown in their by association, but the apprehension about this causing the AI to spam Dispel Magic is grounded.

And Dispel Magic already cancels Faith and Innocent.  You'll probably never see it cancel the latter, though, since the status ailment itself prevents Dispel Magic from succeeding!  We can throw Cancel: Fury/Sadness in there as well for thematic consistency.


Yes, by Speed UP I mean Speed +1.  I'll change it.


Concerning new accessories, I would love to discuss any suggestions.  Feel free to throw something together!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Mudvayne on November 05, 2015, 11:47:57 am
I don't particularly care for katanas losing their 2H ability, though I can understand the reasoning behind it.

I like the heaven's cloud going to PA based formula. Not sure about the AoE 3 and PA*6 though. Maybe AoE 2 and just have it be PA*7. Either way is fine though, I like having more PA based options in draw out.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 05, 2015, 12:18:43 pm
Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Water, Immune: Faith, Innocent, Fury, Sadness
Gold Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Wind, Immune: Don't Move

These are actually the changes I propose. Since you didn't list Kaiser Plate, I'm thinking you wanted that changed to the Ensanguined Shield. (I say this because you listed Zephyr Shield with no changes but did not list Kaiser Plate at all.)

Above would be my proposal. There are currently four items that absorb Earth and four items that absorb Lightning by my count (assuming I didn't miss anything which is always possible). (Note this is also true of Dark, but one of them is Cursed Ring which opens you up to Fire weakness.) This would then give almost all elements three in addition to ways to negate the damage for some elements.

If you do want to keep Kaiser Plate, then perhaps just changing Defense Ring back to Water and Magic Ring back to Wind would work?

Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on November 05, 2015, 01:14:54 pm
For spears we could use Blood Spear. Works similar to blood sword with a WP of 8 or 9 if spears are going to be two hands. It would at least do slightly less damage than the Blood Sword because of the spear getting range. CT5Holy might have suggested a while back.

Javelin seems fine from what you suggested Gaignun.

I still think that the holy lance should proc holy or dia instead of holy breath because for me anyways I've never seen it go off more than twice after the attack. Cause the master guide said breath proc 1-2 times.

The other spears, partisan, mythril and spear should definitely be changed too. Maybe make them elemental spears fire/ice/lightning? Of course it can be without the elemental boosting if anyone is concerned that two handed spear with elemental boosting is too powerful because you can stack PA that way.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 01:35:23 pm
As for Heaven's Cloud, I went for PA*6 and 3 AoE because I thought it'd be equal parts stupid and fun.  What I really wanted was another PA-based Draw Out to accompany Samurai's +1 PA boost.  The precise formula is up for discussion.  I'll include PA*7 and 2 AoE for now.

Sorry.  I forgot about Kaiser Plate.  It's now listed.

I don't believe there has been any particular preference toward which shield absorbs which element as of yet, so I'll change Mythril and Gold shields elements to water and wind, respectively.

Blood and Dia spears sound fine.  I think there have been several spear suggestions many months ago, but I couldn't find any solid numbers.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: fpkfor on November 05, 2015, 04:12:28 pm
Completely different thing but,one thing to consider is that Angel Song and Life Song have no use since they heal so little,maybe up it a bit?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 06, 2015, 03:03:50 am
I am personally fine with boosting Angel and Life Song a bit.  There's been a power creep since the days of Y U SO DERP (the DERP days if you will).  Some forms of healing, particularly Chakra, Life Song, and Item, have been lagging behind. With offensive potential such as it is now, teams have the ability to punch through a single target's HP even if Life Song healed over 100 HP per cast.  Mind you, I don't mean to suggest that Life Song should actually heal that much, but at least we could boost the formula from MA+20 to MA+30 or so.

I also threw a graph together to discuss monk's PA nerf.  The attachment is (pre-Fury) Spin Fist damage as a function of PA.  If we reduce monk's base PA to 12 and ignore the Choice Band proposal, then the highest possible PA a monk can achieve drops from 19 to 18. To maintain monks' offensive potential, we can increase Spin Fist's formula from (PA/2)*PA to (1) [(PA+2)/2]*PA or (2) PA*10.  I labeled the former "nonlinear" and the latter "linear." Both have identical damage at 18 PA. The crucial difference is that the linear formula is much more effective at lower PA values.  As I argued before the last patch, this linear formula makes Punch Art more usable for jobs other than monk.

Anyway, all I want to demonstrate with this graph is that there are ways of maintaining monks damage with Punch Art while nerfing their PA.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 06, 2015, 03:05:52 am
Regarding new katanas:

I have calculated max potential damage.

Asura Knife
New: 273 damage (385 with proc).
Old: 420 damage

That is a considerable nerf here. It is mostly used for its OHKO, and I believe it should stay that way or somewhere near the top. Around 16 WP should do it.

Koutetsu Knife
New: 280 (350 with proc).
Old: 378

Koutetsu Knife isn't really known for its physical attacks. I am not sure what to do with it right now, will try to think of something.

Bizen Boat
New: 252 (72 MP damage proc)
Current: 306 (100% Silence)

This one is an improvement, I like it

Heaven's Cloud
New: 280 (395 with proc).
Current: 306 (50% slow)

Not sure if I'd consider it an improvement. I kinda like how it and its Draw Out equivalent can proc Slow. It isn't used much right now simply because it's more difficult to strengthen

Murasame
New: 288
Current: 408

To be fair, I have rarely seen anyone use Murasame for healing strikes. It would still heal a considerable amount, and be stronger than it used to with WP-based abilities.

I'm out of time. I'll go over the rest later
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 06, 2015, 06:09:15 am
Thank you for the numbers, WKW.

We can also return elemental strengthening to Asura as an alternative.  I removed it as a precaution, but never crunched the numbers myself, so I did not realize that the change was that big of a nerf.

Concerning Kotetsu, it's draw out is MA-based, so maybe we can use something more useful on female samurai.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 06, 2015, 06:07:27 pm
Continued from last post.

Kiyomori
New: 252 (50% Add: Poison - Blind)
Old: 340 (+2 MA)

This was never known for its physical attacks either, so why not. Besides, there would be Ice Bow and Lightning Bow as new MA alternatives.

Muramasa
New: 234 (306 with proc, 10% Death Sentence)
Old: 306 (+1 MA, 50% Spell Absorb)

I like the new Muramasa overall. The old one was pretty odd. Bizen Boat takes the MP-depleting role instead and does a better job at it.

Kiku-ichimonji
New: 280 (350 with proc)
Old: 340 (439 with proc)

This makes it the Earth equivalent of Koutetsu Knife. I can't really think of something for this one either. Perhaps not all katanas are fit to be forced 2H.

Masamune
New: 288
Old: 272

Much-needed improvement in the other stats. It loses shield, but it's fine if you wear some Sprint Shoes or Genji Armor, you essentially get +2 Speed.

Chirijiraden
New: 405 (Berserked)
Old: 374 (not Berserked), 561 (Berserked)

I'd change Speed+1 to Move+1 because Berserk units may want to reach a target faster. Possibly Always: Berserk as well. Needs something like 18 WP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 08, 2015, 06:35:08 pm
Regarding Life Song:

I agree it's awful. Unlike Wiznaibus, they will not use it right away, and by the time they do, it most likely won't really make a difference. Maybe it should be randomized like most of the songs. Here are some ideas.

Heal_(1-50)%. On average over 2 "cycles", units will be healed 50% of their HP, along with a 30% Regen proc chance.

Heal_(1-40)%, 25% Add Regen. This increases the proc chance to 50% over 2 cycles. I don't think that would make it high enough to make the Regen ability less desirable, especially if the latter becomes instant.

Heal_(1-40)% HP, reduce CT to 5. This way, getting 2 cycles before your next turn won't be exclusive to the low-end Speed units.

I had balance in mind, but one of the above may be merged with another, if you feel it should be done this way. As for Angel Song, I don't find it too bad. It recovers enough MP for the low MP users such as Paladins. You can have another unit with Absorb MP to take advantage of the fact it costs MP to recover larger chunks as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 09, 2015, 01:22:17 pm
Based on WKW's calculations, I threw together a few proposals for some of the weaker katana.  Kikuichimonji also needs an improvement, but I haven't thought of anything yet.

All calculations use 14 PA and 8 MA and do not consider BrFa modifiers.

Asura Knife: 15 WP, 15 W-EV, Fire element, Strengthen: Fire, 50% Cast: Asura, Forced 2H
NEW: 484 (330+154)
OLD: 440
Description: The 1HKO katana.  Good synergy with the Asura Draw Out skill.

Kotetsu Knife: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element, Absorb: Dark, 50% Cast: Kotetsu, Forced 2H
NEW: 308 (252+56)
OLD: 396
Description: Targeted towards MA-based samurai on teams with dark absorption.  Not attractive for its physical damage.  Essentially an easily accessible poor-man's Dark absorption shield for Samurai and Netherseer.

Murasame: 17 WP, 15 W-EV, Restore HP, Immune: Berserk, Forced 2H
NEW: 306
OLD: 432
Description: Has the highest WP in the game (shared with Chaos Blade). Recommended for use with WP-based skills.

Muramasa: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, 50% Cast: Muramasa, Forced 2H
NEW: 344 (288+56), 12.5% Add: Death Sentence
OLD: 324 (+1 MA, 50% Spell Absorb)
Description: Its average damage is bolstered by above-average W-EV and a small chance to add Death Sentence.

Heaven's Cloud: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Wind element, Strengthen: Wind, Always: Float, 50% Cast: Heaven's Cloud, Forced 2H
OLD: 360, 50% Add: Slow
NEW: 308 (220+84)
Description: Has low physical damage, but grants permanent Float (+1 vertical jump, all terrain, and Earth immunity).  Also strengthens the Heaven's Cloud Draw Out skill.

Chirijiraden: 15 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Always: Berserk, +1 SP removed, Forced 2H
NEW: 405 (Berserked)
OLD: 396 (not Berserked), 594 (Berserked)
Description: Highest consistent damage among the new katana, and its +1 Move means fewer wasted turns approaching the enemy.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 09, 2015, 02:18:56 pm
I like the Punch Art formula change, as it would make the physical damaging parts of Punch Art more accessible.

Kikuichimonji (Katana): 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Earth element, 50% Cast: Kikuichimonji, Forced 2H, 3 Range, but can only hit the farthest tile (think Dictionaries and Harps)
The 3 range thing is probably more fitting for Heaven's Cloud. Which means... Kiku still needs a real design >_>

Heaven's Cloud (DO) at 3 AoE does indeed sound like good, stupid fun. :D I'd be willing to give it a shot. I think max damage would be 28*6 = 168 (Squire with PA boosting gear + 108 Gems/Prismatic Rod for Strengthen). Actually, if Netherseer becomes a thing, I would vote against 3 AoE, but if Netherseer can't make it for some reason, then 3 AoE HC sounds good.

Possible Spear designs! Copy-pasted from an earlier post of mine + adding a couple new ideas:
Spear with 50% Don't Move proc
Spear with 50% Power Ruin / Mind Ruin proc
Spear with 33% Undead proc
Spear with 100% Consecration proc
Blood Spear
Spear with 50% cast Life Drain proc (redundant with Blood Spear, but this encourages high Fa Lancers, possibly even 40/70!)
Spear with 50% cast Stop (someone else had this idea before)
Spear with 50% Blade Beam proc or 50% cast Balance proc
Spear with 100% Knockback (is this possible?) (ok maybe it shouldn't be 100% but it sounds funny!)
Spear with 50% cast Execute (possibly bonkers)
Spear with 75% cast Last Dance (overall result is 30% CT 00)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 09, 2015, 06:07:33 pm
Since Chiri would be Always: Berserk, it may as well have 0 W-EV since Berserk removes your evasion anyway. Just a small thought I had.

Kikui could pull a Mystic Blade. Kinda a multi-purpose weapon for someone who'd want to use both PA and MA Draw Outs together (just an example). Perhaps it could get 25 W-EV like the Muramasa as well for an extra incentive over pure +2 PA or +2 MA weapons.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 09, 2015, 07:39:19 pm
What about a geomancy proc? It could be 100%, but the weapon itself would then have to be lower in WP so that it's not too overpowered. It would have the chance to proc status and get a little bit of unavoidable damage in there as well. We could use it for Kiku or a spear.

Also, does anyone else feel that Bolt 2 neets to go down in power a bit or something? It just seems to utterly destroy everything, but that could also be because I like high faith teams.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 10, 2015, 11:41:35 am
Kikui could be something like, Initial: Fury & Initial: Innocent or something. Make the wielder able to hit pretty hard while being more prone to physical attacks and less prone to magic? I looked over the proposals again quickly and didn't see a way to start with Fury (I could be missing something though) which I feel would be pretty good to have included. (Perhaps adding Initial: Sadness to the Faith Rod could happen too? I'm not strong on either opinion but could be something worth thinking about.)

WKW, are you able to run some tests on the Life Song ideas if you have some time? From what I remember playing in Vanilla and the other patches, the AI acts very finicky with Life Song. If Life Song can reverse all the damage done, the AI won't attack. I would guess that Life Song having a chance to heal for 50% would carry over and if there were a Mime, the AI might read that as a heal for 100% and won't attack unless it can one shot. I'm not positive on that, but I do know the AI gets a little bit weird when Life Song gets going.

As far as Bolt 2 goes, no I don't think it needs a nerf. It's reflectable, evadable, takes 5 CT to resolve, and costs more MP than everything else in Black Magic besides Flare. That's just my opinion though.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 10, 2015, 01:52:05 pm
I believe the AI bases itself on the 'preview' numbers, no matter how much it will end up doing, so if Life Song recovered 1-40%, the enemy would see it as 20.5%. If the attacker is not capable of dealing over 20.5% of the damage, I assume it won't do anything. I don't know if the enemy considers the Mimes, but I know the allies do. Things could get troublesome with 2 Life Songs though, that's a 40% healing average... maybe it should just get significantly faster, but also weaker? For example: 3 CT, Heal 1-20%, 10% Regen. This way it wouldn't mess with the AI.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 11, 2015, 11:52:05 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on November 09, 2015, 02:18:56 pmActually, if Netherseer becomes a thing, I would vote against 3 AoE [Heaven's Cloud], but if Netherseer can't make it for some reason, then 3 AoE HC sounds good.


Hmm.  Monks have high PA, too.  Is 3 AoE Heaven's Cloud fine on monks but not netherseers?

Actually, I suppose it depends on the katana changes.  If a katana grants Strengthen: Wind, then Heaven's Cloud will hurt much more on netherseers than monks.  I suppose this means we'll have to balance katana and Draw Out in unison.

Quote from: CT5Holy on November 09, 2015, 02:18:56 pmPossible Spear designs! Copy-pasted from an earlier post of mine + adding a couple new ideas:
Spear with 50% Don't Move proc
Spear with 50% Power Ruin / Mind Ruin proc
Spear with 33% Undead proc
Spear with 100% Consecration proc
Blood Spear
Spear with 50% cast Life Drain proc (redundant with Blood Spear, but this encourages high Fa Lancers, possibly even 40/70!)
Spear with 50% cast Stop (someone else had this idea before)
Spear with 50% Blade Beam proc or 50% cast Balance proc
Spear with 100% Knockback (is this possible?) (ok maybe it shouldn't be 100% but it sounds funny!)
Spear with 50% cast Execute (possibly bonkers)
Spear with 75% cast Last Dance (overall result is 30% CT 00)


I like the Blood Spear, as well as the knockback and Last Dance spears.  In particular,

I was about to write about the Execute spear as well, but then realized that Execute is essentially a Climhazzard proc that kills the target at 25% HP rather than 50% HP.

To add, as I believe has already been mentioned elsewhere, a MP Blood Spear might also be neat.  Throw it on a caster unit, and the unit will poke something to restore its MP whenever its MP is depleted.  With this spear, conventional forms of MP healing, like Move-MP UP or Absorb MP, will not be necessary. On second thought, this type of weapon might be better as a pole than a spear, since caster classes have access predominately to the former.

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 09, 2015, 06:07:33 pm
Since Chiri would be Always: Berserk, it may as well have 0 W-EV since Berserk removes your evasion anyway. Just a small thought I had.


You're right, WKW.  W-EV would be superfluous on a weapon that grants Always: Berserk.  I'll update the list of proposals.

Quote from: dw6561 on November 09, 2015, 07:39:19 pm
What about a geomancy proc? It could be 100%, but the weapon itself would then have to be lower in WP so that it's not too overpowered. It would have the chance to proc status and get a little bit of unavoidable damage in there as well. We could use it for Kiku or a spear.


I vote for a spear for the sake of thematic consistency among katana.

Quote from: dw6561 on November 09, 2015, 07:39:19 pm
Also, does anyone else feel that Bolt 2 neets to go down in power a bit or something? It just seems to utterly destroy everything, but that could also be because I like high faith teams.


I believe Bolt 2 is working as intended in that case.  It is meant to be a faith destroyer.  To counter it, I recommend Rubber Costumes, White Robes, Reflect Rings, or M-EV.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on November 12, 2015, 01:10:44 am
Quote from: Gaignun on November 11, 2015, 11:52:05 pm
Hmm.  Monks have high PA, too.  Is 3 AoE Heaven's Cloud fine on monks but not netherseers?

Actually, I suppose it depends on the katana changes.  If a katana grants Strengthen: Wind, then Heaven's Cloud will hurt much more on netherseers than monks.  I suppose this means we'll have to balance katana and Draw Out in unison.


My thinking was that if Netherseers were included, then I believe their PA-based AoE damage along with the 3 AoE Heaven's Cloud could be problematic. If there are no Netherseers, one lowish damage PA-based 3 AoE skill in isolation seems fine.
Then again, Flash Hat and Defense Ring still exist to deal with wind element stuff, but this also makes these items more essential for units -> less of a choice for team builders.

I like your idea for a new CT lowering skill used as a proc.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 12, 2015, 03:56:29 am
Ah, I understand.  There would be too many large-AoE wind spells, so the wind element would become too prevalent, huh?

In that case, we could keep Heaven's Cloud's AoE, damage, and slow proc as they currently are, but change the formula from MA to PA.  The slow proc ought to curb Heaven's Cloud's use as a healing skill.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 12, 2015, 09:42:59 am
Instead of Last Dance animation, it could be Persuade animation from Vanilla if you want to do a CT 0 skill. Simply having the CT reduced by a proc would work also. But that sounds like a fun idea.

Even if my idea of that Katana having Initial: Fury isn't well accepted, I do think there should be something with Initial: Fury at least. A piece of armor maybe? There are some unused templates like Linen Cuirass or Bronze Helmet I believe. Or, another idea is that we could add it to Katar (since that weapon has seen far less use since it lost 2H ability.) These are just ideas I'm throwing around but having one piece of equipment with this at least I feel is ideal.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 12, 2015, 11:27:37 am
Last Dance proc? That sounds hilarious, I'd keep it.

@silentkaster:
My vote is for Initial Fury on a piece of armor because it would improve Heavy armored classes a bit and provide a bit more flavor to them. This turns Lancers/Paladins into pretty customizable units, being able to take the role of a tanky sandbagger or a glass cannon. Putting it on katar would be interesting too, but it would have to be used with high evasion or protect since the Fury increases the damage recieved. Both ideas have their charms, I'll admit, but I would love to see more options for armored classes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 12, 2015, 08:44:40 pm
I like the Dance proc idea as well. I would be more inclined to place them on cloths though. Maybe one of the poles.


Initial: Fury makes it possible to pair Fury and Berserk. I'd be leaning towards a weapon because on anything else, it would make just about every weapon have OHKO potential.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 21, 2015, 08:43:10 am
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 12, 2015, 08:44:40 pm
I like the Dance proc idea as well. I would be more inclined to place them on cloths though. Maybe one of the poles.


Initial: Fury makes it possible to pair Fury and Berserk. I'd be leaning towards a weapon because on anything else, it would make just about every weapon have OHKO potential.


I see what you're saying about the initial fury. If we put it on a weapon, we could overwrite shieldrender or Platinum Sword with something, or perhaps Katar like silentkaster said. Hmm...what if a piece of armor got initial: sadness to counter the effects of such a weapon? If that is too broken, then what would be a good counter to that? I guess counters to warpath also apply to fury since they give pretty much the same effect in the long run.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on November 21, 2015, 09:08:58 am
Just be careful with all of the OHKO talks, as it'd make any form of healing outside of Raise/2 obsolete.

Not that it isn't possible right now, but such a unit has massive drawbacks. A weapon granting even Initial Fury might be too much unless it's WP is low enough that said unit HAS to be a glass cannon to achieve the OHKO status.

That being said, I like the idea of a unit that can be as scary as a Berserked unit and still Act normally...
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on November 25, 2015, 03:05:06 am
Been playing more FF6 and, after seeing the Hawkeye's sprite, gave me the idea that there should be at least one or two more 'throwing' weapons. In this case, it looked like an Axe, so

Tomahawk suggestion? The Hawkeye does 'random' damage as it has a proc to do more depending on if an enemy has Float or not, and that kinda fits the idea of Axes' random damage.

Problem here is balancing it. It shouldn't be as strong as the others, but not so weak that it's unusable.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 26, 2015, 02:48:12 pm
I would rename the Slasher into Tomahawk, and simply exchange some WP for the added range. Also, possibly exchange its 2S ability for a 50% Cover Fire proc if 2S on a ranged weapon is too much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: fpkfor on November 26, 2015, 05:38:11 pm
I think it would be fine for a ranged weapon to have 2S if it can only be paired with another same range weapon,like how wiz did for his patch
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 26, 2015, 06:41:39 pm
I like WKW's idea. I wouldn't mind 2S on it but a cover fire proc sounds okay too.

Quote from: fpkfor on November 26, 2015, 05:38:11 pm
I think it would be fine for a ranged weapon to have 2S if it can only be paired with another same range weapon,like how wiz did for his patch


I do agree. 2S on a ranged weapon would be cool, but I don't know how everyone else feels about that. Of course we could just tell everyone that they can't pair up two different ranged weapons in the rules, but that feels like an obvious rule patch to me.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 26, 2015, 09:56:06 pm
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 26, 2015, 02:48:12 pm
I would rename the Slasher into Tomahawk, and simply exchange some WP for the added range. Also, possibly exchange its 2S ability for a 50% Cover Fire proc if 2S on a ranged weapon is too much.


I'd probably actually prefer to use the Giant Axe for that if this becomes a thing. Slasher has a place among the axes currently for rando-big numbers in either the form of two hands or two swords. Battle Axe has the nasty decap proc, but Giant Axe just seems so...meh for most purposes. I guess it could be alright on a Lore using Geomancer or maybe on a Grand Crossing Paladin who wants to use Earth, but the WP is just too low for the latter and with the former, other forms of set ups are generally more effective. We don't see a lot of use out of the Giant Axe, so I feel this weapon is better apt to be changed. But either way, I'm not too strong in this opinion since the only Axe I actually like and use is Battle Axe.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 27, 2015, 12:00:41 am
Giant Axe will be great on nether magic squires, knights, and geomancers: +2~4 effective PA for wind and earth spells with +30% P-EV as a bonus.  In the current patch, Giant Axe would be good for Fuuton and Suiton were it not for monks' supercharged PA overshadowing everyone else.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 27, 2015, 10:17:54 am
Monks definitely have it all... they're potentially resistant to a plethora of harmful statuses with a single helmet, have decent HP, 9 Speed, crazy PA, and a wonderful mix of offensive and defensive skills.  Hell, on top of that, they can wield bags.  I feel that, if any job should receive a nerf, it's Monk.  I've been hoping for an overall headbands rebalance; it would also be nice to see Monks lose 1-2 PA (EDIT: if they lose PA, maybe they can gain hats, as well?) in exchange for maybe a bit more MP (since Head Break is widely used and accurate) and a point of Move?  (EDIT 2: I'd even be fine with just the extra MP, no extra Move, nerfed PA, nerfed Chakra Band, and access to hats.)

Speaking of Move, I feel that Summoners should also be bumped to 4 Move and be given access to knives.  Low HP, high MP, high Move support caster is something that appeals to me.  I know that this suggestion is rather unorthodox, but so is a lot of Arena in comparison to other patches and especially vanilla.  :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: fpkfor on November 27, 2015, 12:56:43 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on November 27, 2015, 12:00:41 am
Giant Axe will be great on nether magic squires, knights, and geomancers: +2~4 effective PA for wind and earth spells with +30% P-EV as a bonus.  In the current patch, Giant Axe would be good for Fuuton and Suiton were it not for monks' supercharged PA overshadowing everyone else.


Squires cant equip axes for some reason
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 27, 2015, 03:18:42 pm
Wow, you're right.  In spite of having not played vanilla FFT in many years, I was still under the impression that squires can equip axes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on November 28, 2015, 01:17:44 am
Quote from: Gaignun on November 27, 2015, 03:18:42 pm
Wow, you're right.  In spite of having not played vanilla FFT in many years, I was still under the impression that squires can equip axes.


Yep. Axes are Paladin and Geo only without the Heavy Blade support.

I know I've proposed a lot of new (ish) things by this point, but I got an idea purely to make the recorders flip out when it happens: if there's a rod to proc Bahamut, why not one to proc Meteor?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on November 28, 2015, 01:56:44 pm
I wouldn't mind a Meteor Staff, personally.  It sounds like stupid fun.

Quote from: Andrew on November 27, 2015, 10:17:54 amSpeaking of Move, I feel that Summoners should also be bumped to 4 Move and be given access to knives.  Low HP, high MP, high Move support caster is something that appeals to me.  I know that this suggestion is rather unorthodox, but so is a lot of Arena in comparison to other patches and especially vanilla.  :P


High movement on a squishy caster is kind of counterproductive, though.  The summoner will outpace its team on larger maps and be focus-fired.  Maybe we could give 4 movement to a tankier caster.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on November 28, 2015, 02:07:35 pm
What's this about a meteor staff? Sounds like I can do some evil stuff with that  :twisted:

The only tanky caster I can think of is maybe Oracle, and even then I don't think high movement suits them that well. Nor do I think summoner should gain a movement boost because of reasons already mentioned.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on November 29, 2015, 11:24:59 am
4 Move Oracle?  Make this a thing!
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on November 30, 2015, 01:42:00 pm
I wonder, why was the Float skill removed? Is it because the AI never used it? Or because it is OP against Earth teams? I really don't have enough data on it, but for a start I propose for Don't Move to act as some counter to it. They would cancel each other out (like Slow and Haste). Perhaps in a later patch, units affected by Don't Move could also become more vulnerable to Earth (because they can't move).
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on November 30, 2015, 02:46:11 pm
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 30, 2015, 01:42:00 pm
I wonder, why was the Float skill removed? Is it because the AI never used it? Or because it is OP against Earth teams? I really don't have enough data on it, but for a start I propose for Don't Move to act as some counter to it. They would cancel each other out (like Slow and Haste). Perhaps in a later patch, units affected by Don't Move could also become more vulnerable to Earth (because they can't move).


I suspect because there are very few instances where the AI could use it and players (nor the AI) would be able to use it very effectively. What I mean by that is that Float only works on magic based Earth elemental damage. The only abilities that I've found that Float will protect against are as follows:

Earth Dragon
Quake
Local Quake
Kikuichimonji
Earth Slash
Titan

(Pretty sure I got them all but not positive)

Of those, three of them are instant (so the AI will not use Float without cause) and Quake is very fast so it is a highly selective ability that counts on the enemy team basically having one of those two abilities (perhaps Quake in rare instances if Float were CT1)

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but Float will not protect you from abilities like an Earth based Grand Cross or Earth based weapon attacks. At least it has not in my testing. So I'm guessing it was just removed to allow space for other abilities.

However, I am curious about reflect. I know that Sinkhole uses the Reflect animation. However, in another patch that shall go unnamed here, the AI uses reflect very well. It will use it if a spell that can be reflected is targeted on an ally (or themselves). As long as it can get the reflect spell off in time, it works fine. There are a lot of teams based on reflect and I thought it would be fun to have a way to use it in battle, but the only way to apply reflect in battle is Nameless Song and even then, it's not only a not great ability, but it can backfire since the AI may literally not stop using it even to perform some things the AI normally holds as priorities.

I wouldn't want to add it back to Time Magic since Sinkhole is superior for midcharging, but it would be nice to possibly use the Persuade or Negotiate skill and give it to the mediator. Since we took away the ability to Midcharge from Refute (which, not sure why since I don't recall anyone complaining but maybe I missed something), we could add a Talk Skill that could add Reflect maybe MA + 65% of the time or something.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 02, 2015, 04:30:37 am
Quote from: dw6561 on November 28, 2015, 02:07:35 pmThe only tanky caster I can think of is maybe Oracle, and even then I don't think high movement suits them that well.


The other option is a redesigned scholar/battlemage.  4 movement would be right at home on a caster with Clairvoyance/Awareness and innate access to shields.

Quote from: silentkaster on November 30, 2015, 02:46:11 pm[We] could add a Talk Skill that could add Reflect maybe MA + 65% of the time or something.


Thank you for the Reflect critique, silentkaster.  If Float is only applied to avoid spells mid-charge, then a skill that applies Float should certainly have 0 CT.  As you suggest, a talk skill would be perfect for this.  Considering its situational application, this talk skill should probably be both cheap (~100 JP) as well as accurate (MA+75 or so).  As a counter, we could add Cancel: Float to Don't Move, as WKW suggests.  Don't Move would become something like gravity: It makes the target so heavy that they are forced to the ground and can't move.

To push Float into the metagame, it would also help to move forward with the Titan buff, so people start using Titan more often (or at all).

Last, I threw together a few spear ideas, some of which are based on CT5Holy's suggestions:

Jumping Spears (none can be used with Two Hands)
Javelin: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, +2 Jump
Obelisk: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +2 PA, +1 Jump
Dragon Whisker: 14 WP, 10 W-EV

Poking Spears (all can be used with Two Hands)
Blood Spear: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Cast: Life Drain
Heavy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, 100% Knockback
Gungnir: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Cast: Last Dance OR 50% lower CT by 30
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Holy element, +1 SP and Holy Breath proc removed
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on December 04, 2015, 02:10:53 am
Okay, so on the stream we were talking about how the haste and slow spells were kind of useless. I've come up with a few ways to possibly make it better:

1. We could make them a little more accurate, and increase the CT of Haste/Slow 2 to compensate. Even just the accuracy would help.
2. We could have just one haste spell and one slow spell.
3. We could make haste/slow instant or 1 CT. Though it might overshadow masamune or make the AI keep spamming it.

We could also just leave them as is, but I want to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 04, 2015, 06:20:19 am
I personally like increased accuracy the most, and possibly also lower MP cost.  These changes make the skills easier to use on non-casters.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 04, 2015, 12:23:35 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on December 04, 2015, 06:20:19 am
I personally like increased accuracy the most, and possibly also lower MP cost.  These changes make the skills easier to use on non-casters.


Agreed. These skills aren't supposed to be particularly good since Haste 2 and Slow 2 exist. They are supposed to be there (I believe) to grab if you run low on JP or whatnot but still want that unit to use Haste or Slow. Right now, however, I feel they are not appealing enough. Since they're inaccurate, reflectable, evadable (in the case of Slow), cost significant MP more than they should, don't have good AOE, etc, there are a couple things that can be buffed. I don't think moving the spells up to 85% base would be bad at all since Evasion will still kick in against Slow and Haste still will require good compatibility to be fairly accurate. Not to mention, these skills will be useless with Reflect showing up on a team (at least against that/those unit(s).) Moving them down to 8 MP also puts them on the same level with Yell (which I still believe needs Regen), which either could be the better ability depending on the situation. (Example, do you want a 100% Add: Haste ability that isn't reflectable and is instant with no AOE? Or do you want a possibly slightly inaccurate spell that has a small AOE but is reflectable and requires a short charge time?)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on December 06, 2015, 09:03:59 am
I was doing some quake healing testing. I noticed the first time around my scholar with 13 MA only healed herself for only 107 with earth boosting. Now next time she uses it, it's now 207. No MA UP or faith up or anything like that. I think the RNG needs to be fixed in terms of calculated damage. Geomancy also seems to be coming up with wrong numbers when regular geomancy damage and counter flood damage occurs
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on December 06, 2015, 01:00:16 pm
A similar thing happens to my Grand Cross Paladin. The healing goes beyond its limits, almost doubling. I can only guess, but it may have to do with the way Absorb works now. That, or my quick animation fix via ShiShi somehow messed with that part of the game... I can't recall it happening in someone else's recordings. Will have to pay more attention to that when there's absorb teams in action.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on December 06, 2015, 01:31:17 pm
Quote from: Barren on December 06, 2015, 09:03:59 am
I was doing some quake healing testing. I noticed the first time around my scholar with 13 MA only healed herself for only 107 with earth boosting. Now next time she uses it, it's now 207. No MA UP or faith up or anything like that. I think the RNG needs to be fixed in terms of calculated damage. Geomancy also seems to be coming up with wrong numbers when regular geomancy damage and counter flood damage occurs

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on December 06, 2015, 01:00:16 pm
A similar thing happens to my Grand Cross Paladin. The healing goes beyond its limits, almost doubling. I can only guess, but it may have to do with the way Absorb works now. That, or my quick animation fix via ShiShi somehow messed with that part of the game... I can't recall it happening in someone else's recordings. Will have to pay more attention to that when there's absorb teams in action.


I can't recall suffering from this issue, and I haven't edited my ISOs beyond simply patching them with Arena.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on December 06, 2015, 02:05:38 pm
It would be a good idea to keep an eye on those numbers since I used the shishi sprite editor to fix the patch. Though I think there could be more to it than that. Remember one of CT5Holy's stream. There was a counter flood error in terms of damage and he didn't use shishi
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on December 06, 2015, 10:21:38 pm
It's possible that CT5Holy did the ShiShi change as well. I've read patching over a patch can do weird things, but I didn't think ShiShi could mess with game mechanics. I could be completely off though. You could try reproducing the Quake absorb scenario with a new Arena ISO and see if the problem persists.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 06, 2015, 10:24:50 pm
Quote from: Barren on December 06, 2015, 09:03:59 am
I was doing some quake healing testing. I noticed the first time around my scholar with 13 MA only healed herself for only 107 with earth boosting. Now next time she uses it, it's now 207. No MA UP or faith up or anything like that. I think the RNG needs to be fixed in terms of calculated damage. Geomancy also seems to be coming up with wrong numbers when regular geomancy damage and counter flood damage occurs


In my recent match that you recorded, my Samurai did far less with her first Holy in the second round than all of the rest she did, including those on the same Geomancer.

So it might actually be an issue.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 11, 2015, 01:44:24 am
Holy does less damage than it should from time to time for me, too.  It is difficult to reproduce, though.  I would suspect it is some kind of register bug, like the Shell flag is being retained in a register when damage is being calculated.

Is Shell or Magic Defend UP present on any unit when spells do less damage?

Quote from: silentkaster on December 04, 2015, 12:23:35 pmMoving [Haste and Shell] down to 8 MP also puts them on the same level with Yell (which I still believe needs Regen), which either could be the better ability depending on the situation. (Example, do you want a 100% Add: Haste ability that isn't reflectable and is instant with no AOE? Or do you want a possibly slightly inaccurate spell that has a small AOE but is reflectable and requires a short charge time?)


That is a good assessment:
Haste: AoE
Yell: Pierces reflect, instant, also applies Regen
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 16, 2015, 05:33:19 pm
Minor thing, but can we lower the JP of Consecration? It sits at the same JP as Raise 2 and while Consecration is instant and not faith dependent, it is speed dependant and does cost MP. Consecration can be situational and either depends on the enemy team having cursed rings or Zombie/Zombie procs hitting (speaking of which, everything that can cause Zombie is evadable with the exception of Quicksand [which hardly comes into play as far as a terrain for it goes] which is totally fine but adds to my point of Consecration being situational) while Raise 2 is pretty much universally a great skill and both have bases at 70 percent.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 17, 2015, 11:44:05 am
I hate double posts, but this is a point that keeps coming up and in my testing and matches I've seen, I want to make it clear from what I've seen. Mimes don't have infinite MP. They do not use MP in using spells, that's true. However, similar to all other casters, they must start the turn with enough MP to cast the spell. What this means is that if they are hit with a Bizen Boat, Witch Hunt, etc, they will lose their MP and if they don't have enough after that to cast the spell, they will not be able to use the spell. Also, while there is currently no spell in Arena that would cost over a Mime's base MP, if one were to be added (say, Meteor for 70 MP or something), the Mime would be unable to use it at base...he/she would have to equip equipment to have enough MP to use said ability.

I only mention this since I see phrases like, "Mimes have infinite MP," or, "It's worthless to have Move-MP UP on a mime," because these statements aren't true, technically.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 17, 2015, 02:06:49 pm
I would love to compile a list of all these quirky bugs and hidden effects.

A few weeks ago, I encountered a most peculiar bug with Hawk's Eye in which I knocked a unit out of bounds and soft froze the game.  The map was Slums of Goug.  An enemy unit was standing atop the wooden shack on the tile indicated in the attached picture.  One of my archers hit this unit with Hawk's Eye.  The attack was a critical hit. The unit was knocked off the shack and drifted off into the blue expanse.

I wonder if it is possible to knock units off this tile in vanilla FFT.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 17, 2015, 02:25:58 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on December 17, 2015, 02:06:49 pm
I would love to compile a list of all these quirky bugs and hidden effects.

A few weeks ago, I encountered a most peculiar bug with Hawk's Eye in which I knocked a unit out of bounds and soft froze the game.  The map was Slums of Goug.  An enemy unit was standing atop the wooden shack on the tile indicated in the attached picture.  One of my archers hit this unit with Hawk's Eye.  The attack was a critical hit. The unit was knocked off the shack and drifted off into the blue expanse.

I wonder if it is possible to knock units off this tile in vanilla FFT.


I've done it before while playing CCP2, and the attack used (it was on the Zirekile Falls map) has the same animation that Hawk's Eye does.

It's probably an emulator issue.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on December 27, 2015, 03:27:50 pm
Mage Masher - 12 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 SP, No 2s No 2h
Bizen Boat - 14 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 MA or PA, Forced 2h, No 2s, No 2h

Really just want a MP Damage only weapon in 140. Give it the same high WP that Healing Staff got, but not have it extremely exploitable with Dual Wield, Kagesougi and Snipe.
Would be a great weapon for PA*WP abilities like Southern Cross
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 28, 2015, 01:12:14 am
Quote from: Shintroy on December 27, 2015, 03:27:50 pm
Mage Masher - 12 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 SP, No 2s No 2h
Bizen Boat - 14 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 MA or PA, Forced 2h, No 2s, No 2h

Really just want a MP Damage only weapon in 140. Give it the same high WP that Healing Staff got, but not have it extremely exploitable with Dual Wield, Kagesougi and Snipe.
Would be a great weapon for PA*WP abilities like Southern Cross


You talked about this before

And I wonder: would the AI actually just Attack with it?

I can only imagine that they'd treat it like they do with Bizen Boat: that is, in the same function of Sinkhole, but only if it would succeed in causing the casting to fail.

And if that's the case, the only usable part of it would be it's WP, and that's a bit of a poor argument.

Might as well make Sinkhole do MP damage instead /s
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on December 29, 2015, 11:13:05 am
Quote from: Reks on December 28, 2015, 01:12:14 am
You talked about this before

And I wonder: would the AI actually just Attack with it?

I can only imagine that they'd treat it like they do with Bizen Boat: that is, in the same function of Sinkhole, but only if it would succeed in causing the casting to fail.

And if that's the case, the only usable part of it would be it's WP, and that's a bit of a poor argument.

Might as well make Sinkhole do MP damage instead /s


Reks, it would probably be treated as a low priority thing the AI could do. For example, it would be unlikely to attack if it was, say, an item bot that had healing to do or even if it could cast Dia or Comet or something, it would probably do that over attacking with the weapon if it had the option. Then, it would likely only attack if the enemy unit was outfitted with "important enough" MP using abilities. We often see the AI use Bizen Boat when the enemy is charging, but there is on occasion the place where they will use Bizen Boat without being prompted by charging, like on a White Magic user or Scholar or something like that. However, it would be very unlikely to use it on, say, a Squire with Accumulate or a Thief with Quickening.

I think there is a patch I've seen floating around somewhere where there is an MP draining weapon and the AI has used it, but again, it uses it in the middle of charging or when it has nothing better to do.

That being said, I do think it would be nice to have one of the lesser weapons that don't get used much changed into an MP damage weapon. It could be really interesting when combined with Salty Rage or another Berserk item, and just adding a stat to it or a Strengthen: X would make it a viable weapon to use without a Berserk item.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 29, 2015, 01:44:49 pm
Like a 0 WP P Bag, an MP damaging weapon could be used to prevent the AI from using melee strikes.  Does the weapon have to be Bizen Boat, though?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on December 29, 2015, 01:52:35 pm
It doesn't have to. Bizen Boat can just proc Bizen Boat as suggested before. This means Mage Masher becomes the main candidate for pure MP damage. It makes more sense too, as it is available to more jobs.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on December 29, 2015, 04:22:15 pm
I would be fine with mage masher being an MP damage weapon. Stat boosts would be okay, though it may overlap with orichalcum or katar. And if we want to use it with Southern Cross it may need to be considered that Air Knife already has 12 WP and can be boosted. If we gave the weapon an element as well it wouldn't be much of a problem but we probably don't want to go too far into it considering that MP damage is its main property.

Speaking of elements, I would like to see more absorb on weapons like Mace of Zeus currently does. Not sure if it's actually practical, but would be a fun addition in my opinion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on December 31, 2015, 12:32:42 pm
Having Mage Masher do MP damage is cool with me.  That weapon is pretty bland right now.  I don't think additional WP and stats are necessary, but adding an element could be really neat.  With the right equipment, the weapon could be used to replenish teammates' MP.  Something like:

Mage Masher: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Holy Element, MP damage

Then casters could equip Chameleon Robe or Magic Ring (a caster-friendly accessory) to absorb the MP damage.

On the subject of element-absorbing weapons, we could also add Absorb: Holy to the tragically underwhelming White Staff to increase the number of options for absorbing Mage Masher damage.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on December 31, 2015, 01:15:50 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on December 31, 2015, 12:32:42 pm
Having Mage Masher do MP damage is cool with me.  That weapon is pretty bland right now.  I don't think additional WP and stats are necessary, but adding an element could be really neat.  With the right equipment, the weapon could be used to replenish teammates' MP.  Something like:

Mage Masher: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Holy Element, MP damage

Then casters could equip Chameleon Robe or Magic Ring (a caster-friendly accessory) to absorb the MP damage.

On the subject of element-absorbing weapons, we could also add Absorb: Holy to the tragically underwhelming White Staff to increase the number of options for absorbing Mage Masher damage.


Huh, so absorbing an attack that'd do MP damage heals it instead? That's... Actually pretty cool. Might see some recoveries after a Bizen-Boat nuke as a counter to interruptions.

I can get behind that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on December 31, 2015, 04:59:06 pm
Absorbing MP damage? That sound wicked awesome. Let's do it. That could be a nice alternative to ether/carbunkle/spell absorb. Also, I'd like to see Mage Magsher still be dual weildable to use as combos with other things, but if this isn't possible then I understand.

I could get behind Absorb: holy on white staff, because there aren't really enough ways to absorb it.

Also speaking of absorb, since oil doesn't affect holy absorb, would there be any counter to this? I guess weapon break will get a better role considering it isn't used too often now (head break/armor break more appealing to reduce HP caps, get rid of absorb, etc).

Any particular reason why we seem to link elements to different statuses? Like oil to fire, blind to holy, etc? I know those are statuses that the AI doesn't use very often but is there any other reason?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 01, 2016, 07:13:10 am
Thematic consistency, I suppose.  Fire, Ice, Bolt, and Water were given status ailments years ago to buff Black Magic, which was underwhelming at the time.  Summon Magic was buffed in this fashion at the same time.

Among the recent changes, I proposed that Fire Shield adds Oil immunity and Ice Shield adds Slow immunity to allow teams to absorb friendly tier 1 Fire and Ice spells without becoming afflicted with the accompanying status ailment.

As for Mage Masher, it would be nice to make it dual-wieldable, wouldn't it?  Pairing it with an HP damaging weapon would be the only way to proactively drain MP.  However, I have a premonition: Put Mage Masher on a Thief with stacked SP, and the Thief will devour the opposing team's MP pool in a flash.  It would be like a miniature Bizen Boat that the AI uses every turn, and we all know how destructive Bizen Boat can be.

If the AI restored MP as actively as HP, then I wouldn't see a problem with a dual-wieldable Mage Masher.  But since replenishing lost MP is such a pain, I would advise against the motion.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Shintroy on January 01, 2016, 01:53:28 pm
I love the idea of an elemental MP damage weapon Gaigun. It would go above and beyond what I suggested since it would open up even more possibilities with absorb teams and grand cross. Imagine having a MP disrupting, MP healing, grand cross unit. So much potential. Sounds more fun everyone testing healing staff.

Reks imagine a berserked MP damage unit for a moment. Even more terrifying if it's two sword or two handable. Would the AI attack the same unit since berserk is supposedly based on attacking the nearest unit until death, or would it instead attack units that don't have 0 MP? Definitely interested in finding out.

Also I'd like some input on this guide posted in the AI Team Building thread. It's about my new find for mimes and 100% avoiding the mime weapon mime bug.

Quote from: Shintroy on January 01, 2016, 01:50:59 pm
2016, Year of the mime


Left Handed Mimes
It's been over a year since 139 came out and everyone learned about mime's weapon bugs. It's also known that mimes can use shields in their left hand. Realizing this, I went and found out mimes can also equip weapons the same way they equip shields, in their left hand.

Attack Command
A mime will attack with his or her fist if they choose to attack over an ability. They will keep their weapon however, so no crippling issue there.

One Handed Weapons Only
Since the weapon must be equipped in the left hand it goes without saying having a weapon that uses the right hand will cause the mime to lose it's weapon.

Teammates must be right handed.
The main reason this will work. It probably works both ways, but it's been confirmed units don't get the full benifits of a weapon's evasion if it's in the left hand. Mimes have a lot of base evasion to spare so it's best to just have the mime left handed.

Teammates can not use Forced 2H weapons
Knight Swords
Stone Gun
Magic Guns
Gastrophetes
Longbow weapon class

Two Swords and Berserk Bug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkm96eFjVtE
It's not known exactly why this happens, but as far as I can tell berserked and/or weapon mimes mimicking two sword units will cause a mime to equip abilities thus rendering them useless depending on their secondary. The bug looks like a round shield and feather hat equipped in the main and offhand slots. If berserked the mime's attack command becomes a bugged ability graphic that will never actually connect with a target. If the mime isn't berserked it will always wait if they don't have any ability options.

Two Hands
As long as the weapon is equipped in the right hand it will not bug the mime. Samurai, Two Hand Thieves, Two handed Slashers are all fair game.

Multiple Mimes
The mime equipping other mime's weapon bug still applies. See The Damned's post for more details
Having a mime on on the same team as a weapon mime will equip that mime with said weapon. This opens new possibilities since it'll be possible to have 3 of the same type of weapon on one team without breaking rules.
As long as the team follows the rules above neither mime will lose their weapon

Enemy Mimes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lxbkphFpxw
I haven't tested this yet, but I'm guessing the first mime to use an ability involving their weapon will equip other mimes on the field with said weapon.  I'll confirm this later
Having a Grand Cross Mime equip a non-compatible weapon will be suicidal for the mime so know the risks in using some mime builds.

Charm
If a weapon mime gets charmed they have a chance of losing their weapon if the opposing team uses weapons listed above. Chakra Band prevents this, but it's still good to know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't take the AI tournament like I wanted to this year, but it's looking like this year will be better for mime with this find. Good Luck to everyone using weapon mimes from this point on. Have a good mimeingful new year
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on January 01, 2016, 10:29:43 pm
Quote from: Shintroy on January 01, 2016, 01:53:28 pmReks imagine a berserked MP damage unit for a moment. Even more terrifying if it's two sword or two handable. Would the AI attack the same unit since berserk is supposedly based on attacking the nearest unit until death, or would it instead attack units that don't have 0 MP? Definitely interested in finding out.


Except you know how Berserk works. The AI would go "DIE DIE DIE" to the nearest enemy, attacking (even if the map is in the way) until the unit is dead...

Except with an MP weapon never will. Yeah, it can be superb for interruption, and paired with Two Swords (if that's available for it) can be good.

But it can be dangerous to give a weapon that can't kill to a unit who can only attack. Should worse come to worse, it'll be easy for that unit to be completely useless.



I still like the weapon itself, though.

Edit: I didn't mean to sound angry or shut-downish to the idea. I love to play with berserk, and I like the idea of the MP weapon now after I've thought more about what the AI can do with it.

I just really doubt the effectiveness of an MP berserker because after the first MP destruction, they're likely to follow that same unit around and not really do damage, and since that's Berserk's whole stick (aside from shutting mages down), it just makes me question the logic a bit.

All in all I'm supportive of the weapon itself, but I find that combining it with the simple actions a Berserk unit uses actually weakens the potential.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on January 04, 2016, 11:59:41 am
Quote from: Gaignun on January 01, 2016, 07:13:10 am
Thematic consistency, I suppose.  Fire, Ice, Bolt, and Water were given status ailments years ago to buff Black Magic, which was underwhelming at the time.  Summon Magic was buffed in this fashion at the same time.

Among the recent changes, I proposed that Fire Shield adds Oil immunity and Ice Shield adds Slow immunity to allow teams to absorb friendly tier 1 Fire and Ice spells without becoming afflicted with the accompanying status ailment.

As for Mage Masher, it would be nice to make it dual-wieldable, wouldn't it?  Pairing it with an HP damaging weapon would be the only way to proactively drain MP.  However, I have a premonition: Put Mage Masher on a Thief with stacked SP, and the Thief will devour the opposing team's MP pool in a flash.  It would be like a miniature Bizen Boat that the AI uses every turn, and we all know how destructive Bizen Boat can be.

If the AI restored MP as actively as HP, then I wouldn't see a problem with a dual-wieldable Mage Masher.  But since replenishing lost MP is such a pain, I would advise against the motion.


Having it trigger a reaction like "MP Restore" could balance a dual wieldable mage masher, I feel. It would also be nice to see some other MP restoration methods other than the seeming monopoly "Move-MP UP" seems to have on casters, so that might be a benefit of using that for it instead of Move-MP UP.

Also, balancing the weapon to stay in line with Average MP totals (as opposed to HP) will make the weapon not "MP one shot" most mages with the correct gear. For example, a perfectly balanced dual wielded repel knife will only one shot the weakest of HP totals as long as both shots connect. This could be the same with MP perhaps. We could also add some MP to robes if we're still worried.

Actually, I was thinking making the White Staff one of the MP draining weapons (similar to Blood Sword's HP draining) would be good on the White Staff, but your idea is nice too, Gaignun. I'd be happy with either of those, especially if Mage Masher gets the Holy Element (then a team could put White Staff in the weapon slot to absorb their team's shots.)
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on January 05, 2016, 03:17:29 am
The Move-MP UP monopoly is consistent with my concern: The AI sucks at healing MP damage, so players rely in restoring MP automatically.  Unlike HP, whose restoration overrides offense when reduced to 50% of its maximum, the AI restores MP only when there is nothing else to do.  Consequently, unless a caster has some means of replenishing its own MP (possible with only Item and Punch Art, both of which aren't attractive on a caster), a caster's MP tends to stay depleted.  Since the AI treats HP and MP differently like this, I don't believe HP damage and MP damage are equatable in terms of their respective maxima.

If we enable the AI to proactively drain MP, we should also enable it to proactively restore it, or at the very least give casters a few attractive means of restoring their own MP from 0.  Removing Carbunkle's and Spell Absorb's MP cost would be a start.  Implementing a "MP Regen" status effect (or having Regen also restore MP) and tuning MP Restore would be others.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on January 05, 2016, 02:24:17 pm
Quote from: Gaignun on January 05, 2016, 03:17:29 am
If we enable the AI to proactively drain MP, we should also enable it to proactively restore it, or at the very least give casters a few attractive means of restoring their own MP from 0.  Removing Carbunkle's and Spell Absorb's MP cost would be a start.  Implementing a "MP Regen" status effect (or having Regen also restore MP) and tuning MP Restore would be others.


I was going to suggest a tactics A2 based system where units start with 0 MP and it restores 10 MP per turn, but that wouldn't allow us to use stuff like quickening or haste 2 very well would it?

I like the idea of regen restoring MP as I'm not sure the AI would use an MP regen status proactively (unless it replaces wall, then it might be a little too proactive?). Also what do you mean by tuning MP restore?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on January 05, 2016, 04:18:33 pm
Well, I think like Bizen Boat, the AI won't attack too often unless it knows it can midcharge or in other rare instances. I guess with Berserk, it would work better, but that's a big risk the player takes as demonstrated by Reks' argument earlier...it's just not going to be extremely effective.

With 2s and 2h (especially 2s), the AI does get a bit more melee aggressive. But it still knows the HP damage it will do will be zero. So it will probably use just many other skills that is given to the unit before settling on using the 2s and prioritize those if it can. I don't see the AI going on an MP killing spree just because it's 2s, but perhaps that can be tested. WKW, is this something you've tried per chance in one of your mods? Perhaps one of the more active modders will see this post and answer if you've experimented with this if WKW isn't around?

Quote from: dw6561 on January 05, 2016, 02:24:17 pm
Also what do you mean by tuning MP restore?


MP Restore probably has one of, if not the, worst reliability in the game for MP restoration. Move-MP UP has the monopoly because it doesn't require getting hit or AI "actions" in order to actively restore MP. However, a weakness to Move-MP UP is Witch Hunt, and to a lesser extent, Bizen Boat and Magic Ruin. Witch Hunt, while active, will shut down Move-MP UP once the MP pool reaches 0 for the first time. Bizen Boat and Magic Ruin, if it drains the MP to 0, will waste the turn of the charging unit (if it was charging) and cause the unit to not use an MP based move the following turn even if it recovers enough MP to use a skill in that move. It is similar to when a unit heals themselves of "Don't Move" but then will not move.

Absorb MP is situational with Lore, Song, and counters Witch Hunt better than any other MP restoration ability. Even "action" abilities like Ether, Angel Song and Carbunkle are better than MP Restore in most cases. Yes, in the case of Carbunkle and Angel Song you must have MP to perform the action to start, and sometimes the AI does run itself into the ground casting, but it's at least somewhat aware.

MP Restore does not Counter Witch Hunt, Bizen Boat or any other MP damaging abilities. It relies on the unit having ALL of the following circumstances met:

1. Unit gets targeted by HP damaging attack
2. Unit receives HP damage (in other words, does not dodge) and lives through it
3. Unit does not get disabling status inflicted
4. The reaction actually triggers

Therefore, if your HP is too high, your unit is unlikely to be targeted to begin with but if it's too low, you run the risk of damage just killing the character and even when it doesn't, if it causes a status like Don't Act or Stop, the reaction will certainly not go off, and then you run the risk of the reaction just flat out not triggering. In fact, the only "good" use I see for the reaction is when a moderate HP unit that you kind of want to get damaged has it equipped (example, a Grand Crossing Squire). To be fair, MP Restore should not trigger off Witch Hunt since that ability is perfectly countered by Absorb MP. MP Restore would further deplete the already difficult to use ability.

So, yeah...I've been advocating MP Restore, and arguably Absorb MP, need to trigger off Bizen Boat and (in the case of MP Restore only since Absorb MP already triggers off this next ability) Magic Ruin. To Bizen Boat, there is really no effective counter at the moment, and MP Restore triggering off Bizen Boat would solve that. It would also help if we indeed implemented a weapon that did MP Damage to have that trigger the MP Restore reaction. If that's the case, there'd be a lot of different reasons to use any of these abilities (MP Restore, Move-MP UP and Absorb MP) and all would arguably protect you from different scenarios relative to MP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on January 06, 2016, 01:00:58 am
Quote from: dw6561 on January 05, 2016, 02:24:17 pm
I was going to suggest a tactics A2 based system where units start with 0 MP and it restores 10 MP per turn


Tactics Ogre does the same thing, but at a % of the max MP of the unit. If an ASM for this is in fact possible, it'd change the metagame completely (depending on the % or whatever people would agree on).

You probably wouldn't get beat down right away on anything but the smallest maps by the most dedicated melee units, but the flow of the game would certainly change.



For the better? Potentially, but a lot of things would need rebalancing.

As for MP Restore... It's a tricky one.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 06, 2016, 07:29:19 am
Maybe MP Restore can trigger when the unit is at least below 50% health as opposed to when you get hit. Just a thought
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on January 06, 2016, 05:14:54 pm
Quote from: Barren on January 06, 2016, 07:29:19 am
Maybe MP Restore can trigger when the unit is at least below 50% health as opposed to when you get hit. Just a thought


Wouldn't that make it trigger less often instead of more? Unless you mean regardless if damage is actually delt. Can you elaborate a little?

I see MP restore being more useful for offensive casters and melee units instead of healers, so one way we can make it more effective is by making it trigger upon dodging as well as being hit, similar to status adding reactions like dragon spirit.

Also, here's an idea for a weapon. Would it be possible to have a weapon that does normal HP damage, but recovers like half the damage done in MP to the user. Kind of like blood sword, but recovering MP instead of HP and still doing HP damage. That would fix the issue of the AI not attacking with it, although it won't be too useful for a berserked unit and absorb would make the user lose MP.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on January 06, 2016, 05:23:16 pm
To clarify what I mean, what if the AI's HP is below 50% and anytime after that it can trigger MP Restore. Of course that would require that unit to have considerable defense and/or HP to do it. It feels like a free MP refill every time you get hit is making ethers almost unnecessary
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on January 07, 2016, 02:44:19 pm
I think MP Restore just isn't fit to be a reaction, not without introducing new trigger mechanics like Barren's suggestion. Perhaps it should be a support instead, which grants the user Always: Mist (MP Regen).

Quote from: silentkaster on January 05, 2016, 04:18:33 pm
With 2s and 2h (especially 2s), the AI does get a bit more melee aggressive. But it still knows the HP damage it will do will be zero. So it will probably use just many other skills that is given to the unit before settling on using the 2s and prioritize those if it can. I don't see the AI going on an MP killing spree just because it's 2s, but perhaps that can be tested. WKW, is this something you've tried per chance in one of your mods? Perhaps one of the more active modders will see this post and answer if you've experimented with this if WKW isn't around?


Unless there's already a [DmgMP_(Weapon)] formula ASM somewhere on the site (or similar), I can't really test it. I could use the Dark Sword formula as an alternative, but the AI may not behave in the same manner due to the absorb part. *shrug*
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on February 23, 2016, 03:40:02 pm
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on January 07, 2016, 02:44:19 pm
I think MP Restore just isn't fit to be a reaction, not without introducing new trigger mechanics like Barren's suggestion. Perhaps it should be a support instead, which grants the user Always: Mist (MP Regen).


I know that I'm a bit late to the discussion, but if MP Restore gets turned into a support skill, then can its old reaction skill slot be turned into "Piety"?  Piety could apply Faith to the user when struck by an attack; or, to be specific (if it's even possible), an UnFury attack.  I think this would fit into the game nicely if the Netherseer's ever implemented.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Kurosabes on February 26, 2016, 06:18:57 am
MP Restore wouldn't free up a Reaction slot since it simply just gets tagged as a Support, but some other useless Reaction such as Gilgame Heart could be replaced. Or Reflect if it ever gets coded into the game.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on February 26, 2016, 08:48:56 am
Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on February 26, 2016, 06:18:57 am
MP Restore wouldn't free up a Reaction slot since it simply just gets tagged as a Support, but some other useless Reaction such as Gilgame Heart could be replaced. Or Reflect if it ever gets coded into the game.


A reaction to add reflect seems pretty nifty.

Besides, if Chrono Trigger can add Haste (arguably more 'powerful' than Reflect), I don't think that a Reflect Reaction is asking for too much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on February 26, 2016, 02:56:19 pm
Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up, W. K. Wiegraf.  A Reflect reaction would indeed be pretty neat, and not OP at all.  If this is implemented, maybe Reflect Mail and Reflect Ring could grant "always: Reflect" instead?
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on February 26, 2016, 04:06:48 pm
Not sure if everyone will be in favor for Auto Reflect. I had a similar suggestion with having auto reflect ready and not many people were thrilled about it because there's not many people that would use raise + reflect because it can backfire.

But then again, you can still resurrection with fairy and items. Plus reflect shenanigans are often times a example of AI brilliance when they bounce spells off of units. My idea at the time was change the Crystal Shield to a Mirror shield where it offers High P-EV and no M=EV but has Always Reflect. Hopefully now some people will be on board with that
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on February 26, 2016, 08:49:19 pm
Quote from: Barren on February 26, 2016, 04:06:48 pm
Not sure if everyone will be in favor for Auto Reflect. I had a similar suggestion with having auto reflect ready and not many people were thrilled about it because there's not many people that would use raise + reflect because it can backfire.

But then again, you can still resurrection with fairy and items. Plus reflect shenanigans are often times a example of AI brilliance when they bounce spells off of units. My idea at the time was change the Crystal Shield to a Mirror shield where it offers High P-EV and no M=EV but has Always Reflect. Hopefully now some people will be on board with that

More than happy with that kind of suggestion. Would give Cursed Ring units the capacity to have high Faith without as much risk of being Raise 2'd, and would encourage more Water use and other Reflect-Piercing spells and the like.

Or maybe a reflect bounce off of their own team onto the reflected unit to get around that? Dunno if the AI realizes it can do that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on February 26, 2016, 09:25:12 pm
It depends on the position between the reflector and the target. Usually the AI is awesome at using reflect to hit their targets. Reflect based teams relies on positioning A LOT. So you just have to be lucky I suppose if you want a double stop or a double Demi 2
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on March 03, 2016, 03:20:20 am
I am comfortable with adding Always: Reflect to more equipment, as well as adding Reflect and Faith reaction abilities.  People who cover high Faith with Always: Reflect instead of high M-EV will get burned by Black Magic Water/Flare and Summon Magic.

Concerning resurrection with Reflect, I wonder if we can add another high-cost raise ability that pierces Reflect.  Currently, all raise options outside of White Magic are generally miserable.  If we could add a raise ability that resurrects a fallen ally with 50%+ HP, but at the cost of high MP/CT, and if we could add this ability to a skill set other than White Magic, we might be able to decentralize healing roles from White Magic.  I am leaning toward Lore or Nether Magic as this skill set.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: dw6561 on March 03, 2016, 07:32:42 am
I think Always: Reflect and the Faith/Reflect reactions would be pretty cool. I also think that a reflect-piercing raise spell would be okay, although fairy already gets past reflect and we want to make that better. What I really think needs to happen is an unfaith based revival, since Raise 2 is woefully innacurate and even raise falls out at 70% or so when both units are at 40. Whether it's unfaith based, gets past reflect, or both, I would put the new skill on Nether Magic because Lore already has a lot of variety as is in my opinion.


While we're at it, we might want to go ahead and replace Monster Talk, Monster Skill, and Train with more useful abilities if we don't plan to add monsters anytime soon. Not to mention that I think those would be pretty stupid in an Arena setting anyway. Time Mage is still looking for a support skill, after all, and I'm sure we can come up with new supports for Netherseer if that gets put in. Let me know what you guys think.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on March 03, 2016, 12:07:13 pm
I did PM FFMaster a few days ago about modding the patch and he still has't replied. I honestly don't know at this point what we can do.
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Andrew on March 03, 2016, 02:13:20 pm
How about asking him for permission to mod Arena as a community?  We could have polls for new ideas, and the ideas that win said polls could be discussed to death, balanced to death, and then implemented.  I'm wiling to help out with what I can, which would most-likely boil down to testing, using the existing patching tools (not so sure about that ASM stuff), and brainstorming.

EDIT: That's if he responds, obviously.  :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on March 03, 2016, 03:00:40 pm
If he responds then I would bet that he would want us to, but I don't want to misjudge him for assuming he'll say yes
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 21, 2016, 03:36:19 am
Throwing this out before I forget.  Doesn't mean much with FFMaster MIA, though.

A few adjustments
Heaven's Cloud: Dmg_(PA*7), 100% Cancel: Haste, Wind element, 200 JP
Muramasa: Dmg_(PA*9), 25% Add: Death Sentence, 200 JP
Reduce weakness modifier from 2.0 to 1.5.

A few new status effects
Celerity: Halve CT of skills, 48 CT
Amplify: Add Strengthen: All elements, 48 CT
Veil: Add Half: All elements, 48 CT

Reaction abilities
Chrono Trigger: Add Haste & Celerity. 300 JP
Sunken State: New reaction ability.  Add Transparent when targeted. 100 JP
Veil: New reaction ability.  Add Veil when damaged. 200 JP
Title: Re: FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread
Post by: silentkaster on August 08, 2016, 03:36:07 pm
Bumping this thread up. Several balance ideas are coming up in discord based on battles, matches, etc and it's much easier when they're in a thread so we can permanently link. Discord is better for discussing live stuff or making decisions/gathering votes, so if we can get people posting in here with ideas and such again, it would be great for everything.