Final Fantasy Hacktics

Projects => Completed Mods => FFT Arena => Topic started by: Eternal on May 18, 2012, 09:50:35 am

Title: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Eternal on May 18, 2012, 09:50:35 am
I decided to play around with concepts for monsters, since FFM and I were talking about it. I've already shown these to some folks in chat, but I'll post them here as well. Feel free to flame them as you wish.

Chocobo:
Theme: Assistance
R/S/M: Counter, Fly, Walk on Lava
Immune: Disable, Immobilize, Slow, Stop

-Chocobo Kick (Weapon damage and Add: Disable)
-Chocobo Down (Revival)
-Chocobo Recharge (Restores MP)
-Chocobo Gift (Gives MP to an ally)
-Chocobo Meteor (Ranged damage)

Goblin:
Theme: Prankster
R/S/M: Counter Tackle, Concentrate, Walk on Lava, Move-HP Up
Immune: Blind, Charm, Immobilize, Berserk

-Tackle (Weapon damage and Add: Immobilize)
-Goblin Punch (Damage equal to the enemy's lost HP)
-Eye Gouge (Add: Blind, Poison)
-Magic Hammer (Damages MP)
-Distract (Cancel: Charging, Performing, Defending)

Bomb:
Theme: Boom!
R/S/M: Critical Quick, Float, Walk on Lava
Immune: Oil, Doom, Undead, Death

-Bite (Weapon damage, Add: Oil)
-Fireball (Ranged Fire damage)
-Spark (Fire damage around self)
-Bomblet (Reraise on self)
-Self-Destruct (Deals damage equal to lost HP, adds Oil)

Panther:
Theme: Evasion
R/S/M: Caution, Abandon, Ignore Height, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Poison, Blind, Sleep, Stop

-Claw (Weapon damage and Add: Blind)
-Pounce (Ranged weapon damage)
-Cleanse (Removes debuffs from self)
-Reflexes (Add: Haste/Defending/Vanish on self)
-Blaster (Add: Petrify, Slow, or Stop)

Mindflayer:
Theme: Sabotage
R/S/M: Counter Magic, Move in Water, Magic Defense Up
Immune: Silence, Frog, Berserk, Charm

-Tentacle (Weapon damage and Add: Charm)
-Flood (AoE Water damage)
-Wither (-3 PA)
-Fog (-3 MA)
-Mind Blast (Add: Charm or Berserk)

Skeleton:
Theme: Death
R/S/M: Meatbone Slash, Walk on Water, Any Weather, Any Ground
Immune: Blind, Poison, Doom, Death

-Stab (Weapon damage and Add: Sleep)
-Dark (AoE Dark damage)
-Bane (AoE 33% damage, Add: Poison)
-Wake the Dead (Revives an undead unit with 50% HP)
-Kill (Add: Death)

Ghost:
Theme: Supportive Undead
R/S/M: MP Switch, Float, Teleport
Immune: Poison, Silence, Doom, Death

-Ectoplasm (Weapon damage and Add: Undead)
-Drain Touch (Drains HP)
-Zombify (AoE Add: Undead)
-Rising Dead (Add: Reraise/Regen on the undead)
-Blighted Armor (Add: Protect/Shell/Reflect on the undead)

Ahriman:
Theme: Punishment
R/S/M: Damage Split, Magic Defense Up, Fly, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Stop, Petrify, Doom, Death

-Wing Attack (Weapon damage and Add: Stop)
-Doom (Add: Doom)
-Manaburn (Deals damage equal to an enemy's current MP)
-Vengeance (Deals damage equal to the user's lost HP)
-Despair (Cancels buffs and deals 40% damage to an enemy)

Cockatrice:
Theme: Speed
R/S/M: Speed Save, Fly, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Petrify, Slow, Immobilize, Stop

-Scratch (Weapon damage and Add: Slow)
-Gale (AoE Wind damage and Add: Slow)
-Uplift (Add: Float/Immobilize)
-Zephyr (Add: Haste on and around self)
-Stone Beak (Add: Petrify)

Pig:
Theme: Eccentricity
R/S/M: HP Restore, Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Poison, Charm, Sleep, Death

-Dash (Weapon damage and Cancel: buffs)
-Piggy Comet (Ranged damage)
-Toot (Add: Charm/Poison)
-Squeal (Ranged minimal revival)
-Bacon (Add: Regen/Reraise)

Treant:
Theme: Restoration
R/S/M: Regenerator, Defense Up, Magic Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Poison, Silence, Oil, Undead

-Leaf Rain (AoE Weapon damage around self and Add: Silence)
-Hallowed Ground (Persevere HP healing in a large AoE around self)
-Rejuvenate (Persevere MP healing in a large AoE around self)
-Sanctuary (Persevere cure debuffs in a large AoE around self)
-Gift of Life (Ranged 100% revival)

Minotaur:
Theme: Tanking
R/S/M: Hamedo, Defense Up, Magic Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Blind, Berserk, Disable, Stop

-Pickaxe (Weapon damage and Add: Berserk)
-Brawl (Immobilize around self)
-Enmity (MA*1 healing to enemies around self to draw in enemies)
-Sentinel (Protect/Shell/Regen/Defending on self)
-Earthshatter (Earth damage around self)

Malboro:
Theme: Debuffs
R/S/M: Counter Flood, Defense Up, Walk on Water
Immune: Poison, Blind, Petrify, Frog

-Tentacle (Weapon damage and Add: Poison)
-Swamp Water (Ranged Water damage and Add: Slow)
-Tanglevine (Ranged Earth damage and Add: Immobilize)
-Slime (Ranged Add: Slow, Disable, Immobilize, or Stop)
-Bad Breath (Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Slow, Oil, or Sleep 2 AoE around self)

Behemoth:
Theme: Equipment Breaking
R/S/M: A Save, Attack Up, Defense Up, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Blind, Slow, Oil, Undead

-Heave (Weapon damage and Add: Doom)
-Blastar Claw (Damage and destroy helmets)
-Shellbust Claw (Damage and destroy armor)
-Hellcry Claw (Damage and destroy weapons)
-Icewolf Bite (Damage and destroy accessories)

Dragons:
Theme: Breaths
R/S/M: Dragon Spirit, Ignore Height, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Oil, Undead, Doom, Death

-Fire Breath (Linear Fire damage and Add: Oil)
-Ice Breath (Linear Ice damage and Add: Slow)
-Thunder Breath (Linear Thunder damage and Add: Immobilize)
-Dark Breath (Linear Dark damage and Add: Blind)
-Holy Breath (Holy damage to a single enemy)

Tiamat:
Theme: Random Strikes
R/S/M: MA Save, Fly, Cannot Enter Water
Immune: Sleep, Doom, Innocent, Frog

-Triple Attack (Weapon damage on three-sides of the user)
-Dark Whisper (Random Dark damage and Add: Sleep/Doom, strikes multiple times)
-Curse (Randomly strikes a tile with Blind/Silence/Immobilize/Disable/Slow)
-Fallen One (Randomly strikes a tile, reducing the unit's HP to 1.)
-Heaven's Wrath (Random Thunder damage based on Unfaith, strikes multiple times)
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: CT5Holy on May 18, 2012, 12:12:34 pm
Reraise on undead unit = undead unit never gets back up. So Ghost's Rising Dead should be tweaked a bit.

I hope the Behemoth break skills are melee range and avoidable.

Everything else seems fine.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Shade on May 18, 2012, 12:35:05 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on May 18, 2012, 12:12:34 pm
Reraise on undead unit = undead unit never gets back up. So Ghost's Rising Dead should be tweaked a bit.


I am not so sure about that, since I have seen them get back up with reraise, but the thing with that was it was permanent reraise afterwards, since I think it read it as undead trying to get up instead of reraise, so undead came back every single time on first chance possible.

Atleast that's what I saw on a video where there was a unit with undead and reraise.

Anyway it's really buggy and should be outright avoided.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Eternal on May 18, 2012, 12:55:58 pm
@CT5: I envision the Behemoth skills being melee range and avoidable, yeah. As far as Reraise on Undead are concerned, I've never heard of such a glitch. Is there a video of it somewhere?
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Taichii on May 18, 2012, 01:06:32 pm
definitely using this next season if implemented XD
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Barren on May 18, 2012, 01:08:38 pm
I think there was one on Takeno's team if i remember correctly. he had a samurai with diamond helmet and cursed ring. I know its in one of my videos somewhere
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Taichii on May 18, 2012, 01:24:11 pm
shouldn't ghost's zombify be removed? cause the irst skill already has undead effect..
either make it have an effect area of 5 panels (like a cross) or change it would be better :)
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Eternal on May 18, 2012, 01:26:38 pm
That's what AoE means. :P

Area-of-effect.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Taichii on May 18, 2012, 01:36:06 pm
(http://th06.deviantart.net/fs70/150/f/2011/103/8/4/yao_ming_meme_new_version_hd_by_guillersevilla-d3dwein.png)
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: The Damned on May 18, 2012, 03:26:46 pm
(Damn it. I guess I'll have to double post in the Stat/Abilities thread before I leave later today. Great.)

Hmmm...I'll fully respond to these ideas when I'm not currently typing up another large post on another forum. I'm only posting right now to say two main things:


1. I don't understood the arguments that came up in the other thread that there "isn't room" for monsters or that they have to have between 3-4 abilities when they can have more that since we're only, at most, using 16 monsters. Since ARENA doesn't need to have space for special characters or bosses, there's no way in Hades there isn't enough room. Whether monsters are too niche is entirely another argument....

2. I can vouch for/back-up CT5Holy when he says that an Undead unit having Reraise will NEVER get back up. I thought this was common knowledge. Even if it isn't, when I was able to test, it was one of the things I tested rather thoroughly and even with if you make them immune to Crystal or Treasure, they just stay down IIRC.


I'll give a more detailed analysis later, though I rather have to agree with CT5Holy about Behemoths as well and a few of the later monsters are catching my eye for "bad" reasons.

I'll be back to bitch at you guys in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Dynablade on May 18, 2012, 03:54:06 pm
Ghosts looks like they could be crazy, you sure about MP Switch? Would the AI decide that restoring its MP is basically making it invincible, and thus puts it high on priority?
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Eternal on May 18, 2012, 03:59:25 pm
The AI can't see Reactions, so it wouldn't know MP Switch exists at all.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Shade on May 18, 2012, 05:36:45 pm


Yeah undead and reraise, it's buggy as fuck.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Pierce on May 18, 2012, 09:23:47 pm
I'm stoked on monsters.

Pig's "toot" skill adds Charm and Poison. The poison damage at the end of the unit's turn will cancel charm, not sure if that's intentional or not.
Also I'm not sure what is meant by the Treant skills saying "Persevere HP Healing" or "Persevere MP Healing"
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: dinosaur on May 18, 2012, 09:39:10 pm
Quote from: Shade on May 18, 2012, 05:36:45 pm


Yeah undead and reraise, it's buggy as fuck.


Can you point out the time where the bug shows? Thanks!
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Dynablade on May 18, 2012, 09:52:16 pm
22:28
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: The Damned on May 19, 2012, 02:22:32 am
(Sigh. Why did you quote that with the video in it when it's on the same page, dinosaur?)

I am returned, having taken longer to do something else before I left than I anticipated; thanks, computer.

Anyway, I'm still rather surprised that so far that at least a few people, who aren't new to FFT at all, weren't aware of the Undead thing with regards to Reraise. I mean, it's mentioned in the Battle Mechanics Guide (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197339-final-fantasy-tactics/faqs/3876) as the very second thing under [Undead] status. While the Battle Mechanics Guide mentions a bunch of stuff that's minutiae, including the Faith glitch that only CT5Holy ever took advantage of, given how often Undead is used compared to Faith and how I'm pretty sure it's come up at least thrice in ARENA, I guess I just thought everyone knew.

Good to know to still not make assumptions about things.

Anyway, onward to something actually substantive. Having already started thinking about this Embargo, I'm not entirely sure that Undead monsters are doable/worth trying to convert. Then again, this is slightly different (and perhaps better overall) in format from how I was considering doing a potential version of ARENA, so I'll just go with Undead as if they're guaranteed (or, hell, as if monsters are guaranteed).

I'll just go through each monster individually for now rather than comparing them to each other (for the most part):

1. Chocobos:They seem fine, even if Move on Lava is a bit...odd, especially in combination with Fly. I'm guessing Choco Recharge only targets the self, correct? Otherwise, Chocobo Gift would become even more redundant seeming.


2. Goblins: Ugh, innate Concentrate alongside what's essentially Shock and potentially obnoxious "Distract", depending on its range and speed, are make quite wary of Goblins. It doesn't help that "Prankster" isn't exactly a clear theme unless you meant "annoying". I'm also not understanding the Walk on Lava.


3. Bombs: Getting this out of the way first, I have to say that Walk on Lava is utterly unnecessary here since Float Movement, unlike Float Status, already doubles as that. That said, when it comes to utterly useless RSMs, they would probably the monster that benefits the most (read: at all) from Any Weather. Then again, weather has presently been edited out of all maps, at least for the tournament, so....

Anyway, getting into their actual moveset, I'm a bit wary of Bomblet plus Self-Destruct, at least if Self-Destruct hits multiple units still. Also, does Spark still heal the user, because if it does, then I never see the AI using Bomblet in the first place.

("Boom!" technically isn't a theme either, but I choose to interpret it as "heavily offensive", Reraise aside.)


4. Panthers: Despite vaguely knowing that some sprites of have Cannot Enter Water in vanilla have problems when encountering water with it, I'm not entirely sure we should saddle any of the monsters with Cannot Enter Water. It will probably require more testing though just to be sure we're not getting into any "breaks the game" territory.

Technique-wise, Reflexes seems dubious due to how the AI acts about temporary Vanishing/Invisible/Transparent/Clear/Whatever. It's probably even more problematic than usual due to be packaged with Haste, which makes it inevitable that its going to used by the AI. Somewhat similarly, Blaster seems like it would prioritized after that due to having both Petrify and Slow as well as Stop. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what to advise as a solution to either of these at present.


5. Mindflayer: Eh, Counter Magic seems way too likely to backfire to be on a monster as a permanent innate. Counter Flood seems like it's generally better. Other than that, I'm not sure any monster needs an immunity to Silence, Counter Magic aside. Also, Wither and Fog shouldn't be on the same set given the computer doesn't keep track of what stat it's lowering if Thieves and Dancers are any indication. Separate them please.

6. Skeletons: They seem mostly fine aside from the fact that Dark and Bane are rather repetitive. If you're going to keep them together, then please make Bane single target and unable to self-target. Outside of that, I have no idea how you plan to make Wake the Dead work or if you're just going to make Kill add Dead or do damage like Death & add Dead; Kill seems kinda redundant, but meh.


7. Ghosts: While supportive Undead is "interesting" and perhaps justifies something as currently egregious as MP Switch, this current design has quite a few problems. First, though, I might as well address the ambiguities: Rising Dead and Blighted Armor take only Undead, but don't target the entire map, right? Also, I'm guessing these abilities would also hit the Ghost using it?

Getting past that, as has been stated by CT5Holy, Rising Dead would actually screw over the Undead at present due to Reraise. Additionally, Ectoplasm and Zombify are rather anathema to Drain Touch, which is something I only realized right away due to doing it myself with Ghosts in Embargo like an idiot. As such, you're probably going to have to changing one or the other; changing Rising Dead to combat Raise 2 is something I'm not sure about yet, especially since having either Undead-only ability cause Innocent would be kinda busted.


8. Ahriman: Currently the monster I like the most, which means I might steal from it the most. The only thing I'm sure about is the damage off Despair, but even that doesn't seem too troubling. Cannot Enter Water is probably fine on the few monsters that already had that can Fly despite what I said earlier.


9. Cockatrice: Stone Beak might be a bit much on something so fast and with presumably such movement, though it's difficult to tell. Outside of that, much like Ahriman, I don't have much of a problem with, though Uplift is a bit vexing to me. I know it's from Celdia's patch--I suppose it's just because I'm used to think of Floating and Immobilized as opposites. Well that and the Float seems to serve no real purpose beyond thematic stuff, but I'd be somewhat hypocritical if I said that was invalid.


10. Pigs: "Eccentricity" isn't a theme.... That said, I'm assuming that Toot causing Charm & Poison is intentional due to the reasons that Pierce pointed out. Beyond that, Bacon is a bit...ugh, especially combined with HP Restore, but I suppose it ultimately depends on the range and likelihood as with quite a few things.


11. Treant: Defend Up and Magic Defend Up seem a bit much, but I'm guessing that they're still going to have crappy Move/Jump and offensive, so maybe it's justified. That said, Gift of Life is still somewhat to cautious of; I'm guessing it's "only" single-target unlike Spirit of Life from 1.3. Beyond that, are the persevering abilities discriminating or not?


12. Minotaurs: Hamedo? Do not want. Just give them Counter please.

Outside of that, I kinda like these, to the point where I might steal Brawl. I don't really understand Enmity though. Is it supposed to persevere while healing the Minotaur to draw enemies in? Or...?


13. Malboros: Ugh, AoE 2 Sleep is just asking for trouble with Bad Breath, even if it doesn't discriminate. Outside of that, I like this design too.


14. Behemoths: CT5Holy already addressed these guys and I have nothing else to add at present, so let's just move on.


15. Dragons: Don't really like these guys, if only because "Breaths" boils down to "Linearity with some elemental diversity that probably won't do much make the computer vary its attacks. As such, Dark Breath can probably stand to die for some type of physical attack given that Dragons are conspicuously lacking one.


16. Tiamats: This is perhaps a bit hypocritical of me given that I'm going to institute Gambler soon, but I really don't like the focus being "random hits" even that's just keeping true to vanilla Hydras. At the very least, it seems like Fallen One should become something else or, at least, have its range/possible AoE better defined.


As said, I currently don't have much in the way of suggestions to "fix" these problems, but I'm sure I'll come to suggest stuff in time. Regardless, thanks for doing this, Eternal.


Quote from: Pierce on May 18, 2012, 09:23:47 pmAlso I'm not sure what is meant by the Treant skills saying "Persevere HP Healing" or "Persevere MP Healing".


Almost forgot to answer this: "Persevere" means "repeated" here, as in "Performing" like a Dancer's Dance or a Bard's Song.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Shade on May 19, 2012, 09:11:52 am
Yeah dammed the reraise/zombie seems to do wtf it ever wants.

11:15 unit with zombie and reraise dies, and later comes back up.
22:28 the same unit doesn't come up and just dies.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Eternal on May 19, 2012, 09:28:49 am
@Damned: In regards to the monsters with Move on Lava, it's mostly a small detail so they don't get screwed should they ever battle at Bervenia. As for the BMG, I haven't read it in ages. :P

Chocobos: Yes, Chocobo Recharge would only work on oneself. The general gist is for it to act as an MP battery when needed while also being able to perform other functions.

Goblins: Yes, Prankster = Annoying.

Bombs: Spark wouldn't hit themselves because then they'd be trying to heal themselves instead of Self-Destructing, which is why their theme is simply "Boom". :P

Panthers: We could probably remove Vanish from Reflexes, yeah. I forgot how dumb the AI is when left alone with Vanish. I'm not sure what you're getting at with Cannot Enter Water. The reason most monsters have that to begin with is because their sprites don't have water frames.

Mindflayers: Perhaps Auto-Potion instead of Counter Magic? As far as Fog/Wither are concerned, perhaps Fog can lower MA, and Wither can lower Speed?

Skeletons: Dark can become Ruin, which can lower PA. This way we cover lowering MP, MA, PA, and Speed through different monsters.

Ghosts: Blighted Armor I originally planned as being single target, but I suppose it'd be more useful as AoE. Mapwide could be very interesting and make Undead teams a bit more viable.

Cockatrices: As far as I know, Float is still weak to Wind, which would make Gale all the more deadly. FFM may have changed that though, so I dunno.

Treants: Gift of Life would be single target, yes. Preferably, the healing skills would be allies only.

Minotaurs: Two monsters with Counter? Ewww. Enmity is Persevere, Hit: Enemies only. It causes enemies (melee ones at least) to come into that radius for healing, drawing them close to the tank.

Malboros: The statuses picked for Bad Breath would be random- it wouldn't always be Sleep.

Dragons: Maybe a 100% Knockback regular attack?
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Xifanie on May 19, 2012, 10:39:38 am
Quote from: Shade on May 19, 2012, 09:11:52 am
Yeah dammed the reraise/zombie seems to do wtf it ever wants.

11:15 unit with zombie and reraise dies, and later comes back up.
22:28 the same unit doesn't come up and just dies.

Or Zombie just takes priority and Reraise only hides the death count in this case.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Barren on May 19, 2012, 10:52:04 am
I think that the Regen effect should hurt an undead. And poison should heal an undead. makes sense when you think about it
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: The Damned on May 19, 2012, 01:10:50 pm
(Ugh. Still didn't get around to doing that other post yet.)

Admittedly, I just kinda skipped to the initial point in that video that Dynablade pointed out last night. Looking it from the beginning up until about 13 minutes in, that's literally the first time I've seen an Undead unit with Reraise get up. Ever.

As Xifanie said, it could just be hiding the counter, but something seems...screwy with that, especially since the player didn't know how or why his Ninja had permanent Reraise in the first place; then again, that player didn't seem to know nearly as much as they thought they did.... As such, it's entirely possible that whoever did that patch accidentally changed the interaction of those two statuses; also possible that I and others were just really unlucky and that Reraise merely lowers the Undead chance of getting back up, but doesn't lower it to 0%.

Regardless, my point is still valid in that Reraise does nothing to help the Undead.

Quote from: Eternal248 on May 19, 2012, 09:28:49 am
@Damned: In regards to the monsters with Move on Lava, it's mostly a small detail so they don't get screwed should they ever battle at Bervenia. As for the BMG, I haven't read it in ages. :P

[Insert Monster Stuff here.]


I'm aware that you were doing it for Volcano's sake. I was just saying that a) it seems weird and b) you shouldn't be worrying about that map, especially when you're still giving out Cannot Enter Water, since the point of that map is to screw people over.

1. Chocobos: Makes sense. Just difficult to tell considering nothing has an MP cost yet. Related to that, I don't think anyone would be adverse to you just giving them innate Move-MP Up instead, especially since no other monster has it.


2. Goblins: Yes, I figured as much. I was just saying that realizing that doesn't make me feel any more comfortable with what I was (attempting) to "address". Thanks for the clarification though.


3. Bombs: Thanks for the Spark clarification.


4. Panthers: Ah, is that specifically why? Are we aware which monsters do not have water-moving sprites?


5. Mindflayers: Auto-Potion on something not immune to Undead seems a bit troublesome, though not nearly as much as Counter Magic would be, so I suppose it's better. I share a similarly ambivalent sentiment with regards to Wither affecting Speed, but I suppose that's better than both -MA and -PA, especially if you mean it would cause Slow rather than -Sp.


6. Skeletons: Sure, sounds like a plan I suppose. Still doesn't answer my question about Kill (or Wake the Dead), but I was expecting you to answer everything at once to be honest.


7. Ghosts: Yeah, Undead teams currently being crap (due to Raise 2 and not being able to dodge that or Items) was why I asked about the Map-wide effect. Also, while I am generally pleased with your choice in status immunities, it only just now occurred to me that Ghosts (or Skeletons) should perhaps be immune to Petrify lest they both become Seal Evil fodder. It would make more sense for Ghost given the dubious nature of Silence with regards to monsters (which you still haven't explained) and given their ethereal nature. This even though they're also already immune to Consecration due to their immunity to Death as well.


8. Cockatrices: Pretty sure that Float hasn't been weak to Wind in a while. If it still is, then it really needs to pointed out in the Master Guide. That said, Gale still "makes sense" with it.


9. Treants: Okay, I see.


10. Minotaurs: Counter would be less obnoxious than Hamedo, even if Chocobos already have it. However, if you're so adamant about monsters not sharing Reactions, then just give Minoataurs Projectile Guard or even (nerfed) Blade Grasp. Both are a lot less irksome than Hamedo and are yet still worthy of tanks.

As for Enmity, I see. That's...interesting. Not entirely sure the AI will use it if only targets the enemy, though.


11. Malboros: I am aware of that. I merely meant that the mere potential for AoE 2 Sleep is something to wary of, which is why I still so stupid for my initial plans for Mesmerizing Lights. Please don't fall into that same trap.


12. Dragons: Sure, why not. I've yet to see a 100% Knockback attack work as it should, though.


Quote from: Barren on May 19, 2012, 10:52:04 am
I think that the Regen effect should hurt an undead. And poison should heal an undead. makes sense when you think about it


Rather arguable about how much "sense" it makes, even though it would be consistent with Undead taking damage from healing otherwise, which is why I'm guessing you're suggesting it.

However, from both "flavor" standpoint and a mechanic one that change is kinda dubious. Flavor-wise, it could be argued that Poison should rightly further the decay that Undead obviously represents and that Regen should heal them because it still keeps them together and lets them keep getting back up. Mechanically, it becomes uncertain whether the AI would Poison itself when Undead solely to heal itself considering that Poison would otherwise be a negative status. It similarly might still Regen itself.

If you (or someone else) could prove that the mechanic aspect won't be an issue, then perhaps it would be worth doing. Of course, given that would necessitate coding that to be possible in the first place....

Either way, I'm pretty neutral on the issue.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: iamBQB on May 23, 2012, 12:15:39 am
With the return of Monsters, will the squire ability Monster Skill see a return? Or is it just not workable even if you modify it? Seems like this skill would have a lot of potential depending on how easy it is to mess with it.

Quick question about bombs, will they have absorb fire?

There seems to be a desire to make use out of Undead units and to build some synergy from them here, if that's the case I'd suggest having an undead monster capable of buffing the undead. The Ghost is already partially filling this role, so I'd say commit to it fully and ditch the add undead skills or add them to another monster. I notice Ghouls aren't on your list. Instead give the ghost a Dark AoE for healing and perhaps something that can raise PA/MA only for zombies and something to add haste/something else beneficial. While it may make sense thematically for the undead to inflict undead on their enemies, any team built with an undead focus will not be the best equipped to kill undead. It will create a situation where teams will have to include units with Raise 2 and Cure's to do damage which really shouldn't be the way an undead team fights. If there is a way to include charm with zombie it might work out smoother, though may make the move a tad overpowered.

One last little comment about undead units that doesn't really belong in this thread, but sort of goes with what I'm saying above. I feel as though a 100% chance of rising again from death when the timer hits 0 is a worthy trade off for not being able to raise your units in any other way. As long as units don't rez with full health it shouldn't be exploitable, as they'd still resurrect far less often than a team with a simple Phoenix down, and be easily brought down by the enemy team if it holds an advantage. It just seems to me that as it is now, even with an attempt to make undead units more attractive of an option, that harsh death issue is going to keep them underused.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: The Damned on May 23, 2012, 07:24:00 pm
(Okay, so now that I've mostly gotten over feeling like a complete idiot about that obvious solution to Cursed Ring.)

First and foremost, let me just admit that I'm not entirely certain how I feel about allowing Undead monsters in general, especially since we could substitute them "easily"--ignoring the debate over what to substitute in for them--non-undead monsters. Still, them becoming immune to Crystal & Treasure and Eternal apparently eschewing any and all elemental relations does make me feel quite "better" about them; "ironically", without the Crystal & Treasure immunity, I felt they would be too much of a burden to end up seeing use if they weren't hideously overpowered and now with it I think they might have it "easier" than other monsters, Raise 2 and Seal Evil aside.

That said, what I'm actually posting in here about is something I've been thinking about ever since I responded to Raven's post about monsters being linear about a day or so ago. While I do believe everything I replied to him about with regards to that, including using it as a "testing ground" and wanting to see Blue Mage potentially pop up in ARENA once all the base jobs are "done" with, I couldn't help but think of perhaps combining things.

As such, I came up with the following idea that, while I don't "prefer" it over monsters, I'm at least somewhat humoring:


Using pokeytax's RAD 3, would it perhaps be better to have monsters represented by humans--hereafter referred to as "Mascot" ala the Final Fantasy X-2 dressphere (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Mascot) rather than Blue Mage--with monstrous abilities rather than actual monsters with those same abilities?


It both at once gets over the problem of linearity that Raven speaks of and puts forth a valid use to all that job space on the job wheel; now that I think about it, though, I'm not even sure if ARENA is "bond" to the job wheel, which might make needing to use RAD 3 (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=7031.0) a moot point.

Still, it's not like it's all sunshine and roses. Given my fondness of lists, I'll just list the pros and cons that I'm currently thinking of:


Pros:
+ Gets over Raven's valid claim of monsters being linear to point of possible being a problem by allowing the "Hume" "monster", the "Mascot", to use human Secondaries from the baseline 19 (since Mime has none) jobs without causing any weird, potentially game-crashing glitches or animations.

+ Similarly allows "monsters" a hell of a lot more flexibility as Mascots can interact with status and elements a lot more interchangeably since they could now equip at least some equipment rather none at all.

+ Similarly allows "monsters" unprecedented RSM-flexibility since, like human Skill Sets and equipment, Mascots would also be able to equip Reactions, Supports and Movements.

+ No need for Monster Talk since Mascots are human, so people using Talk Skill as their secondary without Monster Talk as their (very limited) Support don't end up getting randomly screwed over.

+ Mascots are able to take gender/sex still, which means that Steal Heart doesn't get an arguably unneeded boost by suddenly being able to universally affect 16 new units.

+ Mascots' humanity means its theoretically easier to try to determine their stat growth versus other humans.

+ Mascots don't have to be semi-arbitrarily bound by Can't Enter Water for graphical reasons.

+ Makes/keeps monsters elementally neutral, which is what Eternal was apparently aiming for. (Or, at least, he hasn't mentioned anything about wanting the monsters he drafted up to Absorb or be Weak to anything.)


Cons:
- The first one that pops into mind is that, if RAD 3 is indeed needed, then that still leaves one monster out since there's "only" 35 spaces in it. That means one monster ends up getting cut entirely; at this point you could probably just combine Ghost and Skeleton though, partly because of innate MP Switch needing to die if monsters become "human".

- Speaking of those two classes, though, another disadvantage of Mascot is that monsters won't generally be allowed their diverse innates that they "need" to help them better stand out (and be less inferior to humans' free-flowing diversity). Similarly, the RSM aspect becomes a bit hazy with that many jobs. Do Mascots get what were their proposed innates as RSMs even if they're (invariably) repeats? Do some Mascots get innates, such as the Skeleton/Ghost/Undead Mascot (Always: Undead), the Bomb Mascot (Always: Float) and the Ahriman & Juravis Mascot (Fly), while the others don't?

- Graphically, Mascots have the problem of either needing 15-30 new-ish human sprites or looking all the same when there isn't even a Blue Mage sprite still since human sprites and monster sprites are so very different (as Kagebunji has informed me). So even if classes are properly named, things stand the chance to become very visually confusing if there are quite a few Mascots on the field and they all the same sprite (or few sprites, let's say 3). This when things can already become quite confusing at times with the sex-different, sprite-different human classes.

- No need for Monster Talk means that it needs to finally die, though whether that's "bad" is quite arguable. It's under Con for now simply because it means that the Monster Talk that has been lingering there for more than a year just ended up becoming ultimately worthless.

- It will be rather difficult to determine what equipment each monster Mascot should get since giving them access to everything would likely be bad. Some things are "obvious", like allowing them all Accessories, but beyond that, things get...hazy. Bull Demon Mascots obviously gets Axes, but should Bomb Mascosts get Ninja Blades? Do Chocobo Mascots get to wear Armor? Why or why not?

- Finally, generating stats for them might ultimately be more difficult given not only the innate and equipment issues, but also the fact you suddenly have to become aware of how human Secondaries and RSMs interact with monster abilities. This awareness would be focused on the interaction of human abilities with monster ones coming from the same unit. Obviously a Bomb Mascot with Dragon Spirit & Self-Destruct, even without Equip Armor & Move-HP Up, is probably egregiously abusive. However, does an Ahriman Mascot become overpowered if it takes advantage of Muramasa, Counter and Despair?


Just food for thought, especially since this is rather off the top of my head. I'm personally fine with all three current possible outcomes with regards to monsters: regular monsters or "Mascots" or no monsters at all.

@TL;DR: Monsters as human "Mascots" as a potential alternative, using pokeytax's RAD 3 if need be. Pros are mainly flexibility; cons are mainly the struggle to find that flexibility and how it isn't going to be an "easy" fix, instead possibly being a more complex alternative than just allowing normal monsters.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: FFMaster on May 24, 2012, 01:48:20 am
I'm more worried about how buggy it is, which is why I haven't bothered with ALMA yet.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:36:26 am
Don't do anything that requires ALMA or RAD, personally. Pointless risk of hella bugs for features that will be a nightmare to try and roll back.  Fuck no, sorry.

Will comment on monster shit later.  Re: Undead, see my post in the HUMAN discussion.  Make Cursed Ring, Skeleton, and Ghoul THEMSELVES Immune: Crystal and Treasure, leave Undead status alone.  kthxbye.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: dacheat on May 24, 2012, 04:15:11 am
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why we need monsters. What roles will they be filling that can't already be filled by humans? Are they going to have much higher base stats than humans? Most of the monsters seem gimmicky to me. They would be effective against the right team, but a human in their place could do most of what they do with more versatility.

Why not just add another human class or two if y'all feel like you need to fill in gaps.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Eternal on May 24, 2012, 11:04:06 am
Because people have wanted monsters for ages now, they were useable in previous AI tourneys, and it adds a bit of diversity instead of seeing the same humans all the time.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Timbo on May 24, 2012, 10:54:14 pm
What about putting Shock onto one of the bombs. It seems like a cool catch 22 combination. If the AI ignores the bomb, it blows up in their face and kills everybody. However, if bomb blows up after getting knocked around a little bit it fizzles. Having Vengeance would give it a nasty-ass alternative to mediocre damage.
Title: Re: Arena Monster Concepts
Post by: Gaignun on May 25, 2012, 03:12:27 am
I'm with dacheat and Raven on this one.  Old-fashioned monsters need to be made stupid powerful in order to make up for their lack of versatility.  The only monster I truly felt threatened by in the past was that red Cockatrice, and that was only because it had AI-breaking Hamedo as a reaction ability.

I'm not entirely opposed to their idea, however.  Until we (and by "we" I mean whoever's able to edit FFT's code) can work out solutions for customising monsters, we just need to create scenarios for using them, like by forcing every entrant of a tournament to use one monster in his/her team.