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☢ ☢ ☢ FFT 1.3 AI Tournament Season 5 ☢ ☢ ☢ [FINISHED] Post-Discussion

Started by Wiz, May 27, 2011, 12:04:42 am

Gaignun

Quote from: Piercewise on July 03, 2011, 01:04:17 pm
I know I'm jumping the gun a bit, but it's my last match until the LB semi-final and it's too good not to put up immediately.


Thanks for posting the match, Piercewise.  You did well to post it before match 55, as match 55 is currently without a commentator.  CamStudio cannot seem to record ePSXe footage at any greater than 5 frames per second on this laptop I'm using, so re-recording it on my end is out of the question.  I asked Wiz to cover for me, but as he has yet to respond, the match is in limbo.

Sorry for the delay, everyone. 

Wiz

I fought hard, despite the flip flop of the results in Round 1/2.
As for Round 3, even if Celdia's out in front, at the very least she's where she belongs ;)

Damn, if only I fought on the Maps used for Match 48 like I was supposed to XP

For those of you who don't know, Piercewise accidentally got the maps for 48 messed up and ended up using 41's so I switched the two for fairness's sake. You should be grateful OGB, I would've moved on had it not been for this error :P

Wow, Kaz's Samurai Soloing in Round 2 was sexy. Too bad his win doesn't have a baring on the resuts =/

That Speed Save Chemist acting as an anti-sandbag unit to lurker's Wizard clinched it for Mel as well as the fact that that Wizard didn't hit many people.

Those Please Eats missing clinched it for yohyzo <_<

Abandon + Casting = NOT WISE!

That was the quickest Tiebreaker I think I've ever seen.

That Last Song hitting on the Lancer in Round 2 allowed ThrowAway to keep Dol in Sandbag mode + that Holy Proc going off in Round 1 from that Lancer was critical :P

25 Min even w/ those speed ups :o  
Nice editing btw Gaignun :D

More than half the vid's comprised of pre-battle analysis lol. Still, nice come back in the middle of Round 1 fdc.

Best Compat Kiku giving out 378 Damage * 2 Units targeted = 756!

400+ damage through a DUP charging Knight is sexy, but not so when Round 3 occured where Pierce got humiliated by Kelso's stupidity.

Round 1: Separation of fdc's Ninja clinched it for Barren
Round 2: Oracle on rez/healing duty for that DA Ninja of Barren's clinched it for fdc

AI Acting stupid (38% Worst Compat Confusion on Samurai from Oracle?) clinched it for fdc.


Gaignun asked me to do the rest of his matches (55,57,60 excluding 62 because fdc offered to do that), and because I don't have my mic w/ me atm, I'll put up 55 and 57 tomorrow, and it's alright Piercewise that you went ahead, no big deal :D

Edit: Sorry for not replying to your PM Gaignun, was busy typing up my comments for the matches as you can see ;)

And no need to apologize about the slowdown in the uploading of these more recent vids. Keep in mind that compared to S3, almost 3x as much work has been done between the 5 of us main commentators (+ Kokopuffs I might add <3) in less than a five week time frame whilst S3 got done in approximately six weeks by one person, Voldemort. :mrgreen:

Idk if this is common knowledge, but if you're going to run an AI tournament, do it in the summer OR at a time where you (the commentator/host) and possibly others are NOT occupied with other activities that'll interfere w/ this.

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

ThrowAway

July 04, 2011, 04:48:45 am #342 Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 09:36:44 am by ThrowAway
That was hilarious.  I love that bard; especially the un-frogging part!  GG squidgy; making the frogging unit a bard was your idea if i recall, so you deserve half the credit for his success
Lurker rush... ???

Squidgy

But of course. Dagger Bard was the fastest way to crank out Frog 2s I could think of. (Sprint Shoes and Flash Hat aside, as they were reserved for the mighty Nutrition.)

ThrowAway

Quote from: Piercewise on July 03, 2011, 03:11:46 pm
This tournament is such a validation of the double-elimination format. Consider...

Throwaway, Odal, and OhGodBears have been in the loser's bracket since round 2, formerdeathcorps since round 1! Since dropping a match they've combined for 20 wins. And who did they lose to? Squidgy (out on rematch), Gaignun (winner's bracket champ), Otabo (out in R3 loser's bracket...to Odal), and pokeytax (out loser's bracket R4), respectively. Three teams that have since fallen away and one who could easily win it all. Love the double-elimination format! XD



The loser's bracket is a good start.
But how to do it well without doubling or tripling the number of matches needed to determine a winner?  One idea could be what they do for the college baseball world series in the U.S. since that is also a field of 64, like what the last two tournaments here have been.  Split the field up into groups of four, and they play all play double elimination in those brackets to get a winner.  Winners of brackets face off for a best of 3, which leaves 8 teams to do the process again: two brackets of 4 and the winners play for it all.

And you can tweak those numbers however you want, it's just an example.
Lurker rush... ???

formerdeathcorps

July 04, 2011, 10:49:58 am #345 Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 11:01:02 am by formerdeathcorps

If hamedo had went off correctly against that bard, Squidgy would have won.


Here's the problem: you can have strong teams lose by the luck of the draw in the small group contests.

Let's say we use the 1st Round Winner's Bracket as an example:


Pierce/Dino/FFM/Fanatic  = Pierce wins
OhGodBears!/Celdia/RedWorld/Otabo = Otabo wins because he counters OGB, even though OGB has a stronger overall team.
PX/UniqueTownPortal/skiploom188/yohyzo = yohyzo wins
Carmine/Zenius/Derevish/Vigilanti = Derevish wins, even though Zenius' team is by no means bad, and I'd argue is at least even with Otabo or yohyzo
Veliuz/Eternal/Jansported/Shade = Up for grabs, since Jansported (who won that group) has a very luck dependent team
3rdOracle/ST4R/Barren/TrueLight = Barren
Pride/Aquilae/Smitson/Havermayer = Aquilae
philsov/Jaakl/LordBobBree/PrismSword = philsov or PrismSword
Odal/Melacthon/Gaignun/Lizovs = Up for grabs, Melacthon has a top 15 team, Odal a top 10, Gaignun won the Winner's Bracket...on good/bad luck days, anything can happen between them; the only unfortunate case here is Lizovs, who has at least a 66th percentile team but was put in a near impossible bracket
CT5Holy/Wiz/Angelus/Ryason55 = Wiz
natureguy/Lijj/fdc/pokeytax = Lijj (because pokeytax counters my team but not Lijj's...and I need luck to pull off a win over natureguy and 2 successive wins over Lijj's team...however, against general opposition, my team is at least as good as Lijj's and better than pokeytax's...so who wins this bracket again isn't representative of the "strongest" team)
Kokojo/Mando/fattyzilla/DomieV = Mando (even though Kokojo's team is probably in the top 20)
zxpr0jk/AeroGP/LightningHax/Dol = AeroGP (but both Dol and zxpr0jk, I feel, have top 20 teams)
Nharayana/Tonberry/Kagebunji/Kaz = Kaz
Master_Aribter/Seijin/thi13en/lurker = lurker
efrate/ThrowAway/Squidgy/BlameGod  = ThrowAway (if your tests are to be believed, ThrowAway, even though Squidgy has at least a top 10 team)


In short, too many strong teams would be permanently eliminated in Round 1.  I don't feel that's right if we want to have a double elimination tournament.  By similar logic, with so many powerful teams up against each other early, it is possible to have relatively boring matches later (or for the winner to be known in advance).  I don't think that's desirable either.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

ThrowAway

Good points deathcorps.  I think the format i spoke of works best when you have a relative knowledge of the strengths if the teams: baseball has the advantage of the teams playing 50-some games before the tournament, and a committee of people to pick which team is placed where.  Obviously if we had a ranking system we would separate teams so the apparently strong ones fight each other later on.

We may always have this discussion: every battle has elements of luck and this makes upsets fun for viewers... though maybe not fun for the person whose team was upset.  Going back to the college baseball example, a few years ago an Oregon State team that was the last team selected to get in the tournament caught fire at the right time and won the championship.  It's a part of all tournaments-- i think it only gets really mitigated when you look at the professional sports that do best of 7 series.  But who wants to cast that many matches?
Lurker rush... ???

OhGodBears!

July 04, 2011, 06:20:27 pm #347 Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 06:24:18 pm by OhGodBears!
Round 41 rematch:
Good rematch Wiz.  Interesting that our teams were so closely matched that they split the first two matches again but in the different order.


Battle 52:
Finally! Ninja Fairy! And to decent effect as well.  I was nervous about how effective it would be using a ninja turn to charge a rez!  GG Ljjj


Battle 53:
I think I snuck by this round (but more ninja summons yay!).  I was pretty nervous about all the Carve Models flying around on some of those maps, and that Knight was so scary.  The AI defaulting to bad compat Flares was frustrating too but I snuck by, really GGs Pierce.


General Comments:
I am interested to see if fdc calls me the underdog again going into our matchup.  To be honest I am not sure how much of a chance I have against fdc's well put together squad but it seems like the pre-battle analysis always has me being bashed for me 6-6-3-3 move setup and questionable healing strategy, but I end up sneaking by largely because of my Lancer's high move and Wizard's Murasame (also Kiku) :P .  Maybe I will defy all logic again?  I love being the underdog in any case!  Either way I am excited that either myself or fdc will come out of our side of the losers bracket into the top 5 since we have both been out of the winners side since round 2 and 1 respectively.  Doing it the hard way ftw.

Wiz

Match 55 LOSER'S BRACKET
Match 57 LOSER'S BRACKET

Too bad I did Match 60 as well, but am uploading it later (like when 58 and 59 are put up), so I know who's in the semi-finals and you don't, nah-nah-ne-nah-nah :P
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Gaignun

Even matchup.  I believe hit chance got the better of Mando in round 2.  In my round 2, Mando punched through Odal's evasion and kept him down with full-party offense.

Squidgy

Life Song's not on that Bard's skill list... sucks the Bard wasted his turn.

formerdeathcorps

July 05, 2011, 03:35:58 am #351 Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 06:20:10 am by formerdeathcorps

So one highly evasive and tanky team beat another highly evasive and tanky team.  Somehow, though, my squad finds Odal slightly easier than Mando...maybe it's because Mando has priest bait that has good compat with my whole squad (save one unit) and I have no physical hits that are 100%?  That's all idle chatter, though, as AeroGP and OGB are up ahead.



The question's this...was Life Song decisive in causing ThrowAway to lose?  I'd rather not see a replay, but this sounds like it may have affected Round 2.



To be fair, I underestimated your team's healing capacity because I forgot that Murasame healing from that Draw Out Wizard essentially was your most reliable form of healing.  As for the movement synchronization, as my team shows, I value that a bit too much (even over damage capacity), but it must be said that most of your opponents up to now weren't very well built in that department either (or lacked sufficient damage TO exploit it properly).
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

ThrowAway

July 05, 2011, 09:09:08 am #352 Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 09:58:27 am by ThrowAway
GG Odal, those tanky knights were just too much.

No, life song is not on his list, but that didn't cause the bard to play stupid and ignore the frog2 ability.  (It probably was a mistake to give him angel song with how much good it did in the matches.)  I think the bad compats did that; the AI must have decided it wasnt worth it?  Either way, no rematch needed.  This was a team that lived and died by the bard; it's fitting that they died when he didnt/couldnt cast the spell.  Hell, he couldnt even frog himself when he got the chance.

Also, we may want to consider banning frog2 if there is another tourney.  Since there is only one item in the game that guards against frog status.  Yes, there is esuna, frog, and item to remove the status, but multiple frogs in one turn is just too much for any team to come back from.


Lurker rush... ???

krilz

Quote from: ThrowAway on July 05, 2011, 09:09:08 am
GG Odal, those tanky knights were just too much.

No, life song is not on his list, but that didn't cause the bard to play stupid and ignore the frog2 ability.  (It probably was a mistake to give him angel song with how much good it did in the matches.)  I think the bad compats did that; the AI must have decided it wasnt worth it?  Either way, no rematch needed.  This was a team that lived and died by the bard; it's fitting that they died when he didnt/couldnt cast the spell.  Hell, he couldnt even frog himself when he got the chance.

Also, we may want to consider banning frog2 if there is another tourney.  Since there is only one item in the game that guards against frog status.  Yes, there is esuna, frog, and item to remove the status, but multiple frogs in one turn is just too much for any team to come back from.




I think that's a bit of overkill. Frog2 is a notable two-edged sword because it can backfire and frogs can use it to their advantage to turn back, not to mention actually landing with the thing. It is however an ultimate weapon if you manage to get the entire opponents team frogged in one cast, but the possibility of that happening is miniscule, at best.

formerdeathcorps

The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Kaz

its always a bit awkward when a commentator is calling a match where their team is also participating...
to hell with you mustadio haters

The Damned

(Hmmm...I feel like there's something [else] I wanted to comment on, but eh.)

Things look to be moving along quickly still, which is good. The elimination of that latest team, though, seems to "jive" with what I expected still.

Now I'm tempted to check the exact make-up of the teams that are left--thanks to whomever updated the brackets in the original post--to see how closely they match those expectations....

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on June 27, 2011, 05:02:22 am
Look at the other side of this problem.  Abandon squads are everywhere in S5.  You need a good way to check that, and the only reliable way other than concentrate + heavy damage (or the equivalent 2 swords + bull's eye) is draw out (and kiku in particular).


I would have answered as soon as I saw this, but Excel kinda took all my attention for the past couple of weeks, so I just didn't get around to it despite trying to keep up with tournament. My apologies.

I suppose I was also somewhat hesitant to address this since I wanted to leave all my Kikuichimonji-related griping until after the season was over. However, since this is more about Abandon, I figure it's fair game and I shouldn't "leave you hanging" so to speak.

Quite simply, I can't buy this argument. Two wrongs don't make a right after all. I never said that Abandon wasn't a serious problem either, but to me it isn't nearly as much a problem as Kiku between the fact that pretty much every squad has at least one unit with unevadeable damage if not two or more and that Abandon, unlike Kiku, is still ultimately at the mercy of the RNG.

It seems equally perplexing to me that you would try to argue that Kiku is necessary to defeat the evils of Abandon when you list several other credible ways that Abandon can be combated.

QuoteOther Options:
1) 15 PA monk + Repeating Fists or Bull's Eye runs into the problem of range, attacker durability, attacker speed, or AI (since AoE and ranged attacks like spin/wave fist and earth slash will be used if the computer sees two targets).
2) Any less PA for RF or Bull's Eye is just a slightly stronger version of dash, really (and is less effective than damage optimized geomancy).  Most geomancy squads don't optimize geomancy damage (because it often is a drain for marginal increases).
3) Summon/flare/holy squads can't guarantee both damage and not getting midcharged.
4) Relying on counter abilities like meatbone slash, sunken state (so you can hopefully be invisible and ignore evasion), damage split, counter magic, or counter flood is simply unreliable due to Br% activation and you are essentially at the mercy of their evasive unit attacking you with damage (and not say...don't act or armor break).


Uh, all options are going to have problems. That doesn't mean they're any less valid unless they completely run counter to what the class would normally do, which is pretty much not going to be the case in S5 where JP totals have been abolished. So, I'm not sure what you're getting at unless you're trying to point out how they aren't foolproof answers like Concentrate is.

Sure, they're not foolproof and the third & fourth options are iffy, but they can work. Pretty much everything in FFT is iffy though, especially since it's under the control of the AI. Anything that doesn't read "100%", no matter how high, stands a chance to miss after all.

That you have six at least somewhat valid options to combat Abandon shows that Kikuichimonji isn't a necessary solution to Abandon; I'd say you also forgot also Concentrate with Steal and/or Battle Skill or Steal Heart in general as well technically given how reliant Abandon is on equipment.

So Kikuichimonji isn't a necessary answer to Abandon--it's just the optimal one to Abandon (and everything else), which is the problem with Kikuichimonji: it's pretty brain dead.  At least with most other forms of 100% attacks available, they tend to either hit only one person if instant or multiple people with a charge time and MP. Draw Out manages to take the best of both worlds and Kikuichimonji just happens to the worst offender because of its power and range (and lesser likelihood to hit an ally due to its linear nature); Elemental is also an "offender" in this light, but it usually does less damage and relies a lot more on luck in general.

I'll stop here for now since I don't really want to turn this thread into rant against the problems I feel that are still apparent with 1.3, especially when it comes to try to run these tournaments. That said, feel free to response to this. I'll just wait until after the tournament is over to reply to your reply to this if you have one.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

formerdeathcorps

July 08, 2011, 02:08:55 am #357 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 02:12:58 am by formerdeathcorps
Quote
Two wrongs don't make a right after all.

Yes, but 1.3 isn't perfectly balanced.  If you decide to allow abandon, you must then allow a strong means to counter it, especially since damage can be checked and is expected by the AI while evasion is not considered at ALL.

Quote
Pretty much everything in FFT is iffy though, especially since it's under the control of the AI. Anything that doesn't read "100%", no matter how high, stands a chance to miss after all.

True, but there's one problem.  75+% chance the AI will do something is not certain (yes, it's not 100%), but it's usually good enough for most purposes to ensure a win, especially when the player stacks multiple 75% attacks against the opponent.  You can't simply equate the innate existence of uncertainty in most AI actions with the equality of all (uncertain) means to counter a given problem.  Some methods, given the patch and given the player setups/maps, will be better than others on average.

Quote
So Kikuichimonji isn't a necessary answer to Abandon--it's just the optimal one to Abandon

OK, except under conditions where you are limited in the number of units, equipments, and skillsets, why not optimize?  If you want to win, isn't that what you SHOULD do?

Quote
(and everything else)

That depends on the team setup.  If your draw out unit is dealing 200+ neutral compat kiku damage, usually something is missing, either a primary skillset, HP, or the ability to heal/resurrect allies.  These are weaknesses that usually increase your team's dependence on that given (offensive) unit, which means against squads capable of manhunting, you will be forced to engage in more resurrection actions than offensive ones.
You can argue the most successful teams were the ones who managed to overcome this by giving their draw out user a defensive support or reaction, but that doesn't downplay the fact doing so still has costs.  It reduces the maximium tanking/evasion power of the other members of the squad (because you spent some of your better armors or a mantle to protect your draw out user), and/or usually also means your other members will be forced to resort to physical attacks (simply because you used up all most of your MA gear on one unit), making you more vulnerable, as a whole, to evasive physical tanks (especially if your draw out user dies, which is usually the case because draw out users have below average HP, on average) and hamedo birds.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Barren

I can see why Kiku can be OP but seriously, they can be countered....just like Abandon could...like formerdeathcorps said, it all depends on your team setup

I mention this last season when people were complaining about double absorption being OP but there are ways to counter that too

And plus those of you who voted for Kiku, you wanted it so that enables you to come up with powerful kiku teams like OGB or Gaignun, Aquilae, ect.

If Kiku wasnt allowed then yes the tournament would have gone differently but I can deal with my loss because of I went up against a Draw Out team who also had summon magic and two powerful knights.

Plus Kiku also depends on maps, we've seen Kiku teams win/lose because of map selection so to say Kiku is OP can be a overstatement but can be countered...again I say it all depends on YOUR team setup, that was why I had a paralyzing/sleeping themed team to show that if I went up against a DO Team then I would showcased how status can be a counter...Of course ranged DPS with good/best compat especially with a height advantage
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Aquilae

Whoa, great job with the Loser's Bracket fdc / Piercewise / Gaignun / Wiz, only 3 more matches (out of 126 total) left! =D
:gay: