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What job changes did you make in your patch?

Started by Timbo, March 26, 2010, 01:31:50 pm

Archael

QuoteToo many games balance at max power and assume the player will reach it before the end. That's a flaw in design -- you shouldn't be able to reach max power before the end at all without specifically intending to.

FFT isn't balanced around assuming the player will reach ABSOLUTE MAX POWER before the end

one look at how easy it is should make that obvious

Timbo

All I know is I love final fantasy tactics and I want to find new and interesting ways to keep the game interesting.  Stat growth, does actually add a dimension to the gameplay.  Maybe I will keep it in my maiden patch.  I dunno.  All I know, is that I still want to know what everybody has done with there personal patches.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

Kaijyuu

Quote from: "Voldemort"FFT isn't balanced around assuming the player will reach ABSOLUTE MAX POWER before the end

one look at how easy it is should make that obvious
FFT isn't balanced at all, really :P Though I'll admit the glaring problems aren't as obvious at lower levels.
  • Modding version: PSX

Timbo

No, I love how awesomely difficult the lower levels can be if you don't know what you are doing.  My friend and I got stuck on Dorter Trade City in the first chapter.  I loved it.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

Samuraiblackbelt

Quote from: "Kaijyuu"
Quote from: "Voldemort"FFT isn't balanced around assuming the player will reach ABSOLUTE MAX POWER before the end

one look at how easy it is should make that obvious
FFT isn't balanced at all, really :P Though I'll admit the glaring problems aren't as obvious at lower levels.

FFT IS balanced, as long as you don't use secondaries or RSMs, and are playing at a low level.
<JoZ> I'm not Wiz. Even if I were, I wouldn't be narcissistic enough to go under an alt and comment on my own team.

PGF: "You are ignoring this user. Click to see their post."

Kaijyuu

QuoteFFT IS balanced, as long as you don't use secondaries or RSMs, and are playing at a low level.
So, you're saying it's balanced if you limit yourself from using a whole lot of stuff the game readily gives you.


'Kay.
  • Modding version: PSX

Samuraiblackbelt

no, each individual class is balanced on it's own, the developers just didn't seem to think about what would happen if you did something like mix a wizard and samurai together.
<JoZ> I'm not Wiz. Even if I were, I wouldn't be narcissistic enough to go under an alt and comment on my own team.

PGF: "You are ignoring this user. Click to see their post."

formerdeathcorps

Quote from: "Samuraiblackbelt"no, each individual class is balanced on it's own, the developers just didn't seem to think about what would happen if you did something like mix a wizard and samurai together.

It seems your concept of balance has three components:
If you define it as any strategy that can be used to consistently to defeat most squads in the game with little modification, than literally any squad of 5 units that has 2 support units, 2 strikers, and 1 hybrid is imbalanced as long as they have optimal attacks and equips.
If you define it as any strategy that can be used better on a non-original unit class, then any unit with high growths is "imbalanced".
If you define it as any ability (especially R/S/M) that is deadlier than average and confers significant advantages that would normally cost CT or void other units' skills/equips; well, the opposite question could also be asked: can or should every ability and class be equal, even in a rough sense?  If that's the case, why are some unit classes harder to unlock/have costlier equips than others?  How much should one unit devote in moves and equips to block another unit's skillset (or should such hard counters not exist)?

What will your ideal "balanced game" look like?  Reaction abilities cannot exceed even counter in power because that would be "too much", or if they do, become limited to a handful of classes as innate skills.  Only the defensive support abilities could possibly be fair; anything that boosts offense or support (even something fairly mild like throw item or concentrate) would be too much.  Anything that can instantly do anything that a mage could charge for would be suspect.  Anything that boosts one's ability to move/act would be reduced or non-existent.  All growths would not only have to be flattened, but would have to be standardized (or you'll see too much of one class).
Of course, I'm generalizing here and not all the above needs to taken to match the vision of balance you seem to be projecting, but I'm just pointing out that I can't agree with this concept of balance you and PX seem to believe in because it literally leaves one with no recognizably similar game to play for the sake of "rebalancing the game".  In other words, according to you, only a complete remake/excision of hard-coded classes/skills could possibly be balanced.  Not only is this excessive, but is flawed in only considering in-battle factors.

I personally define broken as any tactic that requires no thought for victory.  In other words, mechanical tricks that can be repeated (golem + hamedo; Move-MP UP + MP Switch) on any unit with little cost.  Imbalanced is the overall skew of the game towards melee units with swords, lances, instant skills, and swordskills.  There are many ways to fix that, and you don't need to remove R/S/M to do this.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Boxiii

For my class changes look at my thread. I'm using WoTL so excuse the ability names.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4908

Samuraiblackbelt

Quote from: "formerdeathcorps"
Quote from: "Samuraiblackbelt"no, each individual class is balanced on it's own, the developers just didn't seem to think about what would happen if you did something like mix a wizard and samurai together.

It seems your concept of balance has three components:
If you define it as any strategy that can be used to consistently to defeat most squads in the game with little modification, than literally any squad of 5 units that has 2 support units, 2 strikers, and 1 hybrid is imbalanced as long as they have optimal attacks and equips.
If you define it as any strategy that can be used better on a non-original unit class, then any unit with high growths is "imbalanced".
If you define it as any ability (especially R/S/M) that is deadlier than average and confers significant advantages that would normally cost CT or void other units' skills/equips; well, the opposite question could also be asked: can or should every ability and class be equal, even in a rough sense?  If that's the case, why are some unit classes harder to unlock/have costlier equips than others?  How much should one unit devote in moves and equips to block another unit's skillset (or should such hard counters not exist)?

What will your ideal "balanced game" look like?  Reaction abilities cannot exceed even counter in power because that would be "too much", or if they do, become limited to a handful of classes as innate skills.  Only the defensive support abilities could possibly be fair; anything that boosts offense or support (even something fairly mild like throw item or concentrate) would be too much.  Anything that can instantly do anything that a mage could charge for would be suspect.  Anything that boosts one's ability to move/act would be reduced or non-existent.  All growths would not only have to be flattened, but would have to be standardized (or you'll see too much of one class).
Of course, I'm generalizing here and not all the above needs to taken to match the vision of balance you seem to be projecting, but I'm just pointing out that I can't agree with this concept of balance you and PX seem to believe in because it literally leaves one with no recognizably similar game to play for the sake of "rebalancing the game".  In other words, according to you, only a complete remake/excision of hard-coded classes/skills could possibly be balanced.  Not only is this excessive, but is flawed in only considering in-battle factors.

I personally define broken as any tactic that requires no thought for victory.  In other words, mechanical tricks that can be repeated (golem + hamedo; Move-MP UP + MP Switch) on any unit with little cost.  Imbalanced is the overall skew of the game towards melee units with swords, lances, instant skills, and swordskills.  There are many ways to fix that, and you don't need to remove R/S/M to do this.

I think you took what I said and blew it a little out of proportion (people seem to do that with me a lot, not entirely sure why >_<)
what I meant was that the classes are IDEALLY balanced, but in practice there are broken ways of using them, and at higher levels stats become unbalanced.
<JoZ> I'm not Wiz. Even if I were, I wouldn't be narcissistic enough to go under an alt and comment on my own team.

PGF: "You are ignoring this user. Click to see their post."

VampragonLord

i changed squire to use guns, have insta-crystal attack, 2 move, repeated shots at increased damage, straight line high damage, and a whole new equipment list......
oh and you fight zombies
15:05   slave: consensual slavery is the best thing ever~

Timbo

I've been playing with the idea of making the squire class more unique.  Giving regular units something that the special units don't have.  I'm thinking of upgrading them to warrior.  Vanya's sprites are a must.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Timbo

Archael

well in my patch I gave everyone swordskills (because I think the game is alot better this wya.. no waiting for charge spells lol and no evasion RNG to deal with, uu know luck based attacks are gay)

what about U?

Dormin Jake

So you're looking for examples of job modification in personal patches? This will be a long post, but I can show you what I've done so far:

Overview of stat changes -
- Speed normalized, growth slowed way down. Characters start with 8 speed and end up with 11 or 12, depending on job. Maximum total speed bonus from equips is +2.
- With speed roughly normalized, charge times gain a little more consistency throughout the game. I balanced spells around a speed of 10, so they feel slightly faster at the beginning of the game and slightly slower at game's end, relative to unit speeds.
- PA ranges from 10-18, MA from 12-18.
- HP multipliers got heavily buffed. With equips, level 99 HP values for humans range from 540-800 or so.
- All Move-Find Items are the same, regardless of Brave, so low Brave units are no longer required for dungeon dives.
- Still working on monster stats, but expect lower lows and significantly higher highs (Woodman PA vs Behemoth PA, for example).
- Weapon Power is capped at 20. PA and MA with full equipment bonuses will never exceed 23 or 24.
- For the most part, damage has been nerfed and survivability buffed, with the purpose of extending the length and improving the strategy of battles.
Job and Tree changes -
JP required for each level has been buffed slightly. Job Level 3 = 400 JP
Military, Freelance, Divine, Arcane, and Support are just what I decided to name each branch of the job tree.

Base
Squire - roughly the same. Has the highest HP growth despite a moderate multiplier. Expanded equipment options including Crossbows and Spears.
Chemist - uses a handful of new offensive items (see below) to play up the idea of chemistry and to bring versatility to the bottom of the magic tree.

Military
Knight (Squire lvl 2) - mostly the same. Magic Break changed to cancel Protect/Shell/Reflect instead of MP damage. Can additionally equip Hammers.
Warrior (Squire lvl 3) - reworked Monk. Wears heavy armor and carries Axes, Hammers, Greatswords, etc. Martial Arts removed from the game.
Geomancer (Warrior lvl 3) - can additionally equip Hammers. See skill changes below.
Guardian (Knight lvl 3, Warrior Lvl 3) - reworked Samurai. Katanas remodeled into haunted Scythes, Draw Out renamed Ritual. Otherwise similar.

Freelance
Archer (Squire lvl 2) - same, except for the Charge skillset has relatively shorter charge times. Only one that requires waiting a turn is Charge +20.
Thief (Squire lvl 3) - physically stronger, and can equip Ninja blades. Steal Exp changed to Waylay, an unevadable melee attack with dmg = WP*SP.
Dragoon (Archer lvl 3) - biggest change to Jump is that it can be used with all weapons. Equips Spears, Swords, and Greatswords.
Hunter (Archer lvl 3, Thief lvl 3) - can dual wield Daggers and Ninja Blades or attack with Bows and Crossbows. Unfortunately stuck with Throw.

Divine
Priest (Chemist lvl 2) - sameses. Can additionally equip Hammers.
Oracle (Priest lvl 3) - gains Poison. Can no longer equip Books. Charge times on spells are relatively much shorter.
Summoner (Priest lvl 3) - Summon damage lowered by about 2/3. Can now equip Books.

Arcane
Wizard (Chemist lvl 2) - Poison replaced with a medium damage Water spell. Can additionally equip Daggers.
Researcher (Wizard lvl 3) - reworked Calculator. Actually a BLUE MAGE (name's too boring). Equips Daggers, Swords, Books, and Spears.
Arcanist (Wizard lvl 3) - renamed Time Mage (boring). Increased speed multiplier. Can additionally equip Books.

Support
Watcher (Squire lvl 3, Chemist lvl 3) - reworked Mediator. Psychic/anti-mage type character. Equips Daggers, Staves, and Guns.
Dancer (Watcher lvl 3, Thief lvl 3, Wizard lvl 3) - stats buffed across the board, skillset radically altered. Can now equip Ninja Blades and Katanas.
Bard (Watcher lvl 3, Knight lvl 3, Priest lvl 3) - stats buffed across the board, skillset radically altered. Can now equip Daggers and Swords.
New and Heavily Revised Skillsets -
Item
Potion
Hi-Potion
X-Potion
Ether
Hi-Ether
Elixer
Remedy - cures lighter, bodily status ailments like Poison, Darkness, Silence, Don't Act, Don't Move, Sleep, etc.
Bone Relic - cures status ailments that magically transform the target, including Petrify, Zombie, Blood Suck, Frog, etc.
Mossfungus - Add: Poison
Lamp Oil - Add: Oil (Oil ASM'd to be weak to fire damage)
Dragon Oil - Add: Oil and Float (Float ASM'd to be weak to wind damage)
Iron Bomb - magic damage equal to MA*(MA/2), fire and wind elemental (4x damage with Dragon Oil)
Cauldron - separately inflicts an assortment of crippling status ailments in one shot.
Phoenix Down

Warfare (Warrior)
Wild Swing - Spin Fist with increased vertical and extra damage to compensate for no Martial Arts
Bloodlust - PA*((PA+4)/2) damage with 25% chance to Add: Dead
No Mercy - buffed Wave Fist
Earthsplitter - Earth Slash with 6 range and vertical of 3
Rage - 100% HP self-heal and self-inflicted Berserk (possibly Haste)
Clear Body - 1 range, single target Stigma Magic
Swiftmend - 2 range, single target Chakra
Revive

Geomancy - some attacks made shorter range, larger AoE
Sinkhole - 5 range, 1v1, Earth elemental, Add: Don't Move (Pitfall panels)
Torrent - 5 range, 1v1, Water elemental, Add: Silence (Water Ball panels)
Rootburst - 5 range, 1v1, non-elemental, Add: Don't Move (Hell Ivy panels)
Entomb - 5 range, 1v1, non-elemental, Add: Petrify (Carve Model panels)
Moonfire - 5 range, 1v1, non-elemental, Add: Sleep (Kamaitachi panels)
Artifice - 5 range, 1v1, non-elemental, Add: Don't Act (Demon Fire panels)
Wind Slash - 5 range, 1v1, Wind elemental, Add: Float (Gusty Wind panels)
Magma Surge - 5 range, 1v1, Fire elemental, Add: Dead (Lava Ball panels)
Tremor - 2 range, 2v1, Earth elemental, Add: Slow (Local Quake panels)
Venom Gale - 2 range, 2v1, Water elemental, Add: Poison (Quicksand panels)
Sandstorm - 2 range, 2v1, Wind elemental, Add: Darkness (Sand Storm panels)
Blizzard - 2 range, 2v1, Ice elemental, Add: Slow (Blizzard panels)

Control (Watcher)
Recruit - Add: Invite
Deplete - 50% MP break (Knights lost the ability to break MP)
Infusion - heal MP by MA*5
Morale Boost - Brave +15 (brave changes no longer permanent)
Morale Break - Brave -15
Enrage - Add: Berserk ~65%
Stupefy - Add: Stop ~55%
Condemn - Add: Death Sentence ~70%
Mindsplitter - ((PA+10)/2*MA) damage with chance to Add: Berserk or Confusion
Mana Burn - HP damage equal to target's current MP

Blue Magic (Researcher)
NOTE: monster stats overhauled to resemble human stats, allowing for balanced spell damage in Blue Magic.
Goblin Punch - (Goblin) moderate physical damage, 25% Cancel: Charging, Performing
Explosion - (Bomb family) Self-Destruct
Aero - (Flotiball, now Imp) Fire 2 strength, Wind elemental
Dischord - (Piscodaemon) Odd Soundwave
Flamethrower - (Grenade) 2-panel linear Fire damage, 25% Add: Oil
Leaf Dance - (Woodman, now Dryad family) same, just rebalanced
Electrocute - (Coeurl) 2 range Thunder damage, 25% Add: Silence
Earth Rave - (Sacred) 1 range, 1v2, 4 Earth elemental strikes at random.
Ice Prison - (Blue Dragon) 2 range, ~60% Add all: Protect, Shell, Stop, Don't Act, Don't Move
White Wind - (Taiju, now Ancient) 0 range, 2v2, Heal HP, 25% Add: Regen
Blaster - (Vampire, now Queen Coeurl) same, but may Add: Critical (allowing learning)
Bad Breath - (Malboro Menance) 0 range, 2v1, Add all: Darkness, Confusion, Silence, Poison
Dark Matter - (Dark Behemoth) 5 range, Shadow elemental, (MA/2)*MA damage
Flood - (Water Elemental*) 3 range, 2v3, moderate Water damage, lower MP cost
Quake - (Earth Elemental*) 0 range, 3v3, high Earth damage, moderate MP cost
Tornado - (Air Elemental*) 4 range, 2v3, high Wind damage, high MP cost
*Elementals are special ENTD enemies: Geomancers with ??? stats, hacked items that give them elemental properties, and special skillsets.

Songs - all songs have 0 range, 4v6 AoE, and charge once (Persevere unflagged)
Battle Song - Brave +10 to allies in range
Mystic Melody - heal MP by MA*2 to allies in range
Soothing Lilt - heal 10% total HP and Cancel: negative status ailments
Uplifting Hymn - ~65% to Add: Faith to allies in range
Vital Anthem - ~90% to heal 25% total HP to allies in range
Mythic Tale - ((MA+4)/2*MA) Light damage to enemies, chance to Add: Regen(!!)
Unending Epic - ~80% to revive nearby dead allies with 10% total HP

Dance - all dances have 0 range, 4v6 AoE, and charge once (Persevere unflagged)
War Dance - Brave -10 to enemies in range
Sapping Aura - 25% MP break to enemies in range
Fever Dervish - 13% total HP damage, chance to Add: Poison
Silent Fermata - ~65% to Add: Silence to enemies in range
Dusk Minuet - ~50% to Add: Slow to enemies in range
Water Rondo - ((PA+6)/2*MA) Water damage to enemies in range
Nameless Steps - ~70% to Add: random negative status to nearby enemies

All other skillsets are mostly the same, just tweaked for balance issues.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
We are Dormin. Thou art to bring us a tasty beverage.
  • Discord username: dorminjake