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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Barren

I do feel that the undead should have that kind of leverage because they are otherwise to vulnerable to a fire or a raise spell. no matter how hard hitting there area. sure reflect helps but seal evil and consecration (unless equipped with genji shield) can kill them instantly
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

RavenOfRazgriz

Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.

Reks

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 23, 2012, 04:34:21 pm
Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.


Raven to the rescue. Seriously, that is an amazing idea, and it makes a lot of sense.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

The Damned

(*facepalms*)

Hmmm...this reminds me I should probably post in the monster thread right after this...after I finish feeling like a gigantic moron; hey the self-deprecation is more than merited this time.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how I should "summarize" things, but I'll still try to do it since I'm not sure that's what Raven meant he was going to "reply" to.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 23, 2012, 04:34:21 pm
Quick reply to the Undead stuff, will write actual reply to things later -

Undead Status should not be immune to Crystal or Treasure.  It is a straight debuff in every sense of the word, unlike Berserk.  However, this doesn't mean this problem can't be mediated.  Simply make the Undead monster classes (Skeleton and Ghoul) as well as the Cursed Ring immune to Crystal or Treasure - the Undead by choice always rise again, the undead through curse are truly blighted.  Both sides win.


*headdesks repeatedly*

Ugh. It's been so fucking obvious this entire time, especially since I thought of blocking Crystal forever go. Why....

Oh, right. I got rid of Cursed Ring in Embargo for Undead-making armor that will probably die and I'm "buffing" Undead a bit despite it being a debuff. Right. Good job.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 08:52:54 pm
(Okay, I'm back. You may commence booing.)

Too lazy to quote things right now. You want me to do that composite list, Raven?


No, I'll get to it.  Probably make a double-post immediately after this for it.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 08:52:54 pm("We" aren't letting it Blind like Grand Cross, right?)


No, as of now it would have no proc.  It is a pure Weapon Element DPS move.

Quote from: The Damned on May 22, 2012, 08:52:54 pmNow I remember that I still haven't thought about what to do with Sasuke Knife, even as low-priority as it is, or the three Harps, of which only Bloody Strings is currently worth using and raising WP further for the other two isn't really an option.


The other Harps really aren't bad either, the Bloody Strings likely does have a bit too much WP but Harps are so negligible I'd rather focus entirely on Swords and Katana currently and leave Harps for a separate update.  I have a quick and dirty means of getting Bags a bit better though, so I'll include it in the next amalgamation of shit.

Note that the amalgamation of shit will likely have no explanations for it since everything has already been explained, making that post much shorter and easier to sift through.  The few things I add in (such as my Bag quick-fix) will have explanations, though.

RavenOfRazgriz

May 24, 2012, 03:35:00 am #525 Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 04:02:25 am by RavenOfRazgriz
Reformatted all the weapon areas to the setup I used in my Katana and Sword reboots since it's much cleaner than what FDC did.

Throwing Knife - 10 WP, 50% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, +1 Move, 33% Add: Death Sentence on Hit.
Dual Cutters - 7 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% Cast: Doubleshot on Hit.
Repel Knife - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% All or Nothing Add: Don't Act and Haste on Hit.
Mage Masher - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, 50% Cast Bizen Boat on Hit.
Main Gauche - 10 WP, 40% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move.
Orichalcum - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 MA
Katar - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 PA
Air Knife - 13 WP, 15% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Wind Element, +1 Move, 25% Add: Sleep on Hit.

Only change here is that Main Gauche, Orichalcum, Katar, and Air Knife can be used with Two Hands.  This lets you be a bit derpy with them, but helps Katar quite a bit if you want a Knife that just kind of goes RAWR on something's face.  It's like a mini-Lionheart with a lower boost and weaker formula.  While this really doesn't boost anything other than the Katar and maybe Air Knife any, it's an explorable option that opens up more setups, which is good in my book.  Pain Knife also switched with what I consider to be a far cooler concept item.


Spell Edge - 11 WP, 5% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 MA, 50% Cast: Spell Absorb on Hit.


Phoenix Blade - 16 WP, 25% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, Always: Reraise, Slow. Immune: Haste, Undead.
Tactician Blade - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, +1 Move, +1 Jump.
Parry Edge - 9 WP, 20% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Moonlight - 9 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33/50% Cast: Blade Beam on Hit.
Blood Sword - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Absorb HP on Hit.
Coral Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Water, 33% Cast: Water Ball on Hit.
Ancient Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Petrify on Hit.
Sleep Sword - 9 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 20% Add: Sleep on Hit.
Platinum Sword - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands.
Shieldrender - 8 WP, 5% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 50% Cast Shield Break on Hit.
Ice Brand - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 20% Cast Ice 3 on Hit.
Rune Blade - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Lionheart - 11 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, PA +2.
Ultima Weapon - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 33% Ultima.

Tri-Edge replaced with another concept weapon, the Phoenix Blade.  Huge WP, huge W-EV, Always: Reraise, Slow and immunity to Haste and Undead.  Basically, it lets you make a hulking monster of a unit that never dies, but moves at the pace of a snail even with full-on SPD gear.


All Knight Swords (+1 WP)


Asura Knife - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Fire Element, Strengthen: Fire.
Kotetsu Knife - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Dark Element, Strengthen: Dark.
Bizen Boat - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Silence on Hit.
Murasame - 12 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Immune: Berserk, Heals HP on Hit.
Heaven's Cloud - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Wind Element, 50% Add: Slow on Hit.
Kiyomori - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, MA +2.
Muramasa - 9 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, 100% Add: Faith on Hit.
Kikuichimoji - 10 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Earth Element, 33% Cast: Quake on Hit.
Masamune - 8 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Initial: Haste, 50% Cast: Dispel Magic on Hit.
Chirijiraden - 11 WP, 15% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Earth, Wind, Water.


Healing Staff - 11 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Strengthen: Holy, Heals HP on Hit.
Rainbow Staff - 10 WP, 10% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Weak/Half: All Elements.


Blaze Gun - 13 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Fire 3 as Attack.
Glacier Gun - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Ice 3 as Attack.
Blast Gun 11 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 6 Range, Cast Bolt 3 as Attack.


Bow Gun - 8 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Cast: Armor Break on Hit.
Silencer - 10 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Add: Silence on Hit. (Replaces Cross Bow.)
Poison Bow - 12 WP, 0% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 4 Range, 50% Add: Poison on Hit.


Longbow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 8 Range.
Silver Bow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Holy Element, 20% Cast: Holy on Hit.
Ice Bow - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Ice Element, +2 MA, 25% Add: Stop on Hit.
Lightning Bow - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Lightning Element, +2 MA, 25% Add: Don't Act on Hit.
Windslash Bow - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, Wind Element, 20% Cast: Hurricane on Hit. (Hurricane's Hit Rate should become 100%, unlike the low hit rate it has naturally.)
Ultimus Bow - 16 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, Forced Two Hands, 5 Range, +1 PA.


Battle Dict - 14 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Add: Undead on Hit.
Monster Dict - 15 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Cast: Magic Ruin on Hit.
Papyrus Plate - 12 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Cast: Flare on Hit.
Madlemgen - 13 WP, 10% W-EV, No Two Swords, No Two Hands, 3 Range, 33% Add: Stop on Hit.



C Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +2 MA.
FS Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +2 PA.
P Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, Always: Regen.
H Bag - 5 WP, 0% W-EV, Yes Two Swords, Yes Two Hands, +1 SPD.

And a quick and dirty way to make Bags better.  Most anything worth using that boosts MA in the Weapon slot boosts it by 2 MA, so C Bag sees an upgrade. FS Bag sees an upgrade to match, considering it does almost no Attack damage itself.  H Bag (and in turn, Light Robe) lose the mostly pointless Weak: Dark debuff they have, to remove centralization around Dark and because neither item is good enough to need said debuff.  In addition, Bags become compatible with Two Hands and Two Swords.  While almost all the noteworthiness here goes to Two Swords combos (I can think of a few off the top of my head), the Two Hands compatibility is done for the sake of completeness, and the sake of allowing Samurai with purses to hit a bit harder.  Lol.  It's a quick and dirty fix, yes, but highly effective.


]Diamond Shield - 5% P-EV, 25% M-EV, Cancel: Earth, Holy.
Platina Shield - 25% P-EV, 5% M-EV, Cancel: Wind, Water.
Crystal Shield - 20% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Half/Weak: All Elements, +128 Jump. (+128 Jump makes the unit a Stepping Stone.)
Genji Shield - 10% P-EV, 5% M-EV, Immune: Dead, +1 PA.
Swift Plate - 5% P-EV, 5% M-EV, +1 SPD. (Replaces Venetian Shield.)

Added a minor buff to the already niche Crystal Shield because it's always been a cool concept to me and I was on a whim.


Gold Helmet - +110 HP, +0 MP, Immune: Frog, Don't Move, Sleep.
Genji Helmet - +120 HP, +0 MP, Initial: Berserk.



Light Robe - +75 HP, +50 MP, Always: Regen.

The follow-through of the H Bag edit.



Reflect Ring - +1 MA, Immune: Berserk, Initial: Reflect.
Defense Ring - Absorb: Water.
Cursed Ring - +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 SPD, Always: Undead, Absorb: Dark, Cancel: Holy, Weak: Fire, Immune: Crystal, Treasure.

Guess who made The Damned's day and shotgunned Water Absorb in somewhere to replace that useless 8/8 from before?


Jade Armlet - Immune: Stop, Petrify, Cancel: Ice.
N-Kai Armlet - Immune: Charm, Undead, Absorb: Dark.
Defense Armlet - Immune: Don't Move, Don't Act, Cancel: Fire.


Small Mantle - 10% P-EV, 20% M-EV, Cancel: Earth, Holy.
Wizard Mantle - 15% P-EV, 25% M-EV, Immune: Don't Act.
Leather Mantle - 20% P-EV, 30% M-EV.
Elf Mantle - 25% P-EV, 25% M-EV.
Feather Mantle - 30% P-EV, 20% M-EV.
Dracula Mantle 25% P-EV, 15% M-EV, Immune: Berserk.
Vanish Mantle 20% P-EV, 10% M-EV, Cancel: Wind, Water.



Remove: Cheer Up
Change: Bullrush (Change to Null: Haste)
Add: Alacrity (10 MP, +1 MA, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Wild Blow (Weapon Elemental/Range, RN{XA / 2...XA * 3 / 2} * WP, unevadable, 20 MP, 100 JP)
Add: Caution (From Thief)
Add: Concentrate (400 JP)

Moved Caution from Thief over to Squire.  Caution and Awareness compete for the same role on the same slot of the character, so having them on the same class is a terrible idea.  Separating them gives both more chances to see use, since if a character is already using Steal or Basic Skill, they can grab the one already there and save JP, unlike before where you were basically always forced to open Thief, then Caution would mostly get ignored for the sake of Awareness since people seem to view Awareness as being better and you open the same class to get both anyway.


Antidote - Cancel: Poison and Blind, 100 JP.
Echo Grass - Cancel: Silence and Berserk - 100 JP.
Chronos Tear - Cancel: Stop - 150 JP.



Remove: Dia
Remove: Iron Will
Remove: Magic Ward
Change: Nurse (Add: Regen on top of current effects.)
Change: Transfusion (Remove MP Cost)
Add: Iron Will (Add: Protect/Shell, 6 MP, Self, 200 JP)
Add: Reraise (Add: Reraise, 3 Range, 3 Vert, 16 MP, 200 JP)
Add: Southern Cross (Weapon Element, PA * WP, 6 MP, 1 AoE, Vert 1, NoSelf, 250 JP)



Remove: Greased Bolt
Change: Hawkseye (+Proc: Poison/Oil)
Change: Execute (Change damage to 40% of maxHP)
Change: Cover Fire (Change damage to (PA * 2 + 60) * RNG{1..3})


Change: Secret Fist (Change Y to 65)
Add: Warpath (+3 Fury at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)



Remove: Reraise
Add: Dia (See old Paladin, JP cost up to 250.)
Add: Holy March (+3 Faith at end of the turn if moved, 300 JP)
Esuna, 200 JP.
Regen, 50 JP.
Protect, 50 JP. +1 Vert.
Shell, 50 JP. +1 Vert.
Raise 2, 300 JP.
Holy (Gains: Evadable)

Buffed Dia's JP cost to compensate for innately being in Priest's skillset, gave Protect and Shell +1 Vert.  Yay.



(+15 MAM) [Effective +1 MA]
Remove: Fire1
Remove: Ice1
Remove: Bolt1
Remove: Fire4
Remove: Ice4
Remove: Bolt4
Add: Fire 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost 18, Y is 7, rest is as Fire 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Ice 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 9, Y is 8, rest is as Ice 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Bolt 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 23, Y is 9, rest is as Bolt 2, except no Proc.)
Add: Water 2 Back (Replace (Fa + 35)% with (145 - Fury)% - MP cost is 21, Y is 8, rest is as Water 2, except no Proc.)
Change: Fire 2 (+20% Oil)
Change: Ice 2 (+20% Slow)
Change: Bolt 2 (+20% Don't Move)
Add: Water 2 (Same as Ice 2, except MP cost is 15, cannot be Reflected, 20% Cancel all Positive Status, Water Element.)
Add: Water 3 (Same as Ice 3, except MP cost is 27, cannot be Reflected, Water Element.)
[All Tiered Magic accepts M-EV, all Tiered Magic sans Water is Reflectable.]
Change: Poison (Y becomes 90, AoE +1, Vert +1)

Uniformed JP Costs for Tiered Magic:
[X] 2 Back, 150 JP.
[X] 2, 100 JP.
[X] 3, 150 JP.

You'll notice the X 2 Back spells are now slightly weaker than the X 2 spells in terms of DPS and cost more JP.  I ran numbers here - and while damage is seemingly identical to X 2 with X 2 Back, the X 2 Back spells are almost uniformly better because they hit both mages that mostly have 40 Brave anyway as well as tanky units meant to be 40/40, etc. Basically, they hit a far wider range of units while still hitting the things mages already hit hard.  Therefore, it seemed prudent to make their Y 1 less than X 2 and cost them higher in JP to make up for this huge upshot in utility.  Poison Y is lowered, but I only lowered it to 90 here after noticing it still takes M-EV.



Change: Haste (Vert +1)
Change: Slow (Vert +1)
Change: Don't Move (AoE +1, Vert +2)
Haste, 100 JP.
Slow, 100 JP.


Change: All spells CT > 4 take M-EV.
Change: Odin (Dmg_F * MA * 9, Darkness elemental, 20% +Dead, 35 MP, 6 CT)
Change: Lich (Change Y = 65, remove Darkness elemental.)



Change: Spellbreaker (+5 MP, MA * WP, 50% RemoveAll: Re-Raise, Haste, Regen, Protect, Shell)
Change: Speed Save (+25 CT.)



Blind, 100 JP.



(+20 MPM, +10 PAM, +10 MAM, +1 Jump)  (Effective +~20 MP, +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 Jump)
Change Hell Ivy to +Stop
Change Carve Model to +Don't Move
Change Local Quake to +Petrify
Change Quicksand to +Zombie
Change Pitfall to +Slow
Change Gusty Wind to +Sleep
Change Kamaitachi to +Don't Act
Change Demon Fire to +Oil
Change Blizzard to +All or Nothing (simultaneous) Silence and Blind
Change Sandstorm to +Berserk



Change: Koutetsu (+1 Range, -1 AoE, NoSelf)
Change: Masamune (+1 Range Linear, -1 Vert, Self)



Remove: Doku no Kyoukai
Change: -ton (Now subject to M-EV)
Change: Tsumazuku (+5 MP, SP * WP, -25 CT, No other effects)
Change: Kagesougi (Change 100% blind to High% Random Add: Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Don't Act)



Maelstrom - F_MA*4 DMG, 6 CT, 255 Vert/Area, 15 MP, Water Element, 200 JP.  (Replaces Natural Selection.)
Bio 2, 200 JP.



Change: Life Song (+15% Regen, still heals HP.)
Change: Nameless Song (Change hit rate 40%, CT = 4, RandomAdd: Reraise, Protect, Shell)



Change: Wiznaibus (+15% Poison, still damages HP.)
Change: Nameless Dance (Change to RandomAdd: Darkness, Silence, Slow, Oil)


Oil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)

Dead:
Cancel: Oil, Frog
No Longer Cancels: Regen, Poison.

Poison:
CT becomes 96.


Still can't remember what the two Gauntlets FDC, myself, and the others kicked around were to replace Genji Gauntlet and Power Wrist.  Eh, figure it out later.  I don't think I missed any changes here so far.

The Damned

(Hurray, an excuse to be lazy. Because I totally needed one of those.)

Very well then. I wasn't going to include explanations either, especially since this forum probably still wouldn't tell you when/if you hit the word limit. Explanations also would have to take into account the back and forth, at least in some sections, and that would make things even more problematic, especially for more open-ended things.

As for the other things, I suspected as much about "Not-Grand Cross"/"Southern Cross"; I just wanted to be sure as with Tier 3 Black Magic spells.

And, yeah, Harps can wait since they're all decent and exclusive. I was just pointing out how Bloody Strings' drain makes it so much better what would two otherwise good if not great weapons, especially since it's on a class that's not supposed to be attacking that regularly to begin with; maybe 33% isn't cutting either. But, yeah, not exactly a grand priority.

****

And, heh, you posted while I was typing. I guess I'll just reply to anything that's new-new:

1. Knives: Repel Knife's new. I rather like it, even if it will backfire hilariously on units that block Don't Act. I vaguely recall someone saying this disliked Two Hands on Knives, but I personally don't care.


2. Swords: I'm actually kinda morbidly curious to see how Phoenix Blade plays out. It should at least fair better than Salty Rage when it had Slow, though that's probably not saying much....


3. Bags: As much I'm still wary of innate Two Swords and (less, far less in this case) Two Hands, yeah, Bags needed this.


4. Shields: Good name to replace "Glitter Shield". Crystal Shield with will be interesting, if somewhat random. Still, it makes it slightly more usable and why not (besides slightly screwing over only maybe-happening monsters).


5. Rings: Hmmm...if by "make my day" you mean "give him reason to start kvetching again", then yes; not that I'm ever happy, though, so you have my thanks for trying. So does 108 Gems just not get anything at this point then? Also, while no one else commented on it, do we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?


6. Squire: Caution moving here is the first time that's been, right? Regardless, I agree with it, especially since Squire already has the (unused) Defend Support. Still wary of Concentrate, but meh. Can we please call "Alacrity" "Focus"? [/not a huge deal]


7. Chemist: I actually think we all agree, even myself as the "creator" of it, that Chronos Tear should only be 100 JP. Not that I'll lose sleep over it costing 150 JP since I loathe Chemist, but yeah.


8. Paladin: Daw, you named it "Southern Cross". Now I'll feel less horrible when I steal both abilities for Embargo. <3


9. Priests: While still wary of Dia, thank you for upping its JP cost. Also, yeah, like Haste and Slow, Protect and Shell needed the boost.


10. Wizard: Good to see someone has done the math; also that the whole "Water 1" or "Water 2 Back" to thing was made explicit. Also good to know we have confirmation of prices and Water ignoring Reflect. Why Y as 90 for Poison, though, when you had agreed that it was probably fine with Y being reduced all the way down to 75 like the less dangerous Don't Move?


I think you got everything aside from the brief talk about how Archer's Speed Save probably needs a bit of boost to -25 CT. I think there was something else too, but that's the only thing that comes to mind presently.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

dacheat

Quote from: Gaignun on May 22, 2012, 09:39:00 pmI vaguely remembered that when I was typing my previous post, but was not sure enough to act on it.  The perfumes can stay in this case.  However, until there is some way to punish high Fury in spite of Protect, like Yin Yang Magic punishes high Faith in spite of Shell, I will remain wary about Warpath.


Why don't you make snipe a counter to Protect? It seems like Aim: Arm, Leg, and all of the breaks would lend themselves well to getting hit % boosts on high-fury opponents.

CT5Holy

Raven left it at 90 because Poison is M-Evadable.

I'm still pushing for Speed Save to +30 CT.

Repel Knife looks cool.

Phoenix Blade... another interesting concept, but Always: Slow is just so crippling. Not to mention that Always: Reraise doesn't matter when everyone's dead. =P
I'm willing to keep it around for a bit - it'll be fun to try to experiment with, maybe.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Gaignun

May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am #529 Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 09:20:34 am by Gaignun
Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz*Wizard changes*


We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizPoison Y is lowered, but I only lowered it to 90 here after noticing it still takes M-EV.


Don't Move takes M-EV, too.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz*Summoner changes*


You probably forgot to mention this, but the CT>4 summons are going to need some buffs to make up for the M-EV nerf.  How's this?

Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)

Salamander and Leviathan get 20% procs that mirror Black Magic (because I'm feeling unoriginal) and a damage boost so that they aren't laughably bad, Titan gets a damage boost so that Quake doesn't trump it, and Cyclops gets its CT reduced to keep par with the new Titan.  (I don't think +20% Blind is worth both 10 extra MP and 1 extra CT.)

Quote from: The Damneddo we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?


I'd rather add resistance to Oil over Silence, since nothing blocks Oil at present.  What do people think about giving Defense Ring immunity to Oil, Sleep, and Dead? (See the edit below.)

Also, I'd prefer to rename Defense Ring and Defense Armlet to something that elicits the concept of their newly nulled elements.  Coral Ring is on the drawing board.  Do we have any others?

Quote from: RavenOfRazgrizOil:
Dispel by all elements (except holy/dark?)
Weak to all elements (except holy/dark?)


I know we didn't (and most likely never will) conclude our discussion about Holy/Dark.  You raised good points before.  It seems we are arguing for different things, though.  Let me attempt to summarise our stances.  You wish to include Holy/Dark to give more power to the player.  Your explanation was clear.  I wish to exclude Holy/Dark, however, to give more power to the designer.  I tried to do this by showing how accessible the Holy skill would become for 1HKOs.  Black Magic will become able to 1HKO, as well, but only if the Black Magic wielder has high MA in general.  This is fine.  On the other hand, even the tankiest of White Magic users (res bots, status bots, and so on) will be able to 1HKO with Holy.

I guess what this boils down to is that I want the White Magic skill set, which is already useful and widely used, to be incompatible with the Oil buff.  If you want to 1HKO with Oil, you need to be built as a DPS machine; support tanks are excluded.  By giving skill sets access to only elements we exclude from Oil, we designers can make this exclusion possible.  The same thing applies to Demi 2 pending a buff.  White Magic DPS machines will still be able to 1HKO with Holy in spite of the buff.  I don't have a problem with that, especially since Holy is now taking M-EV.  That Holy/Dark elemental weapons also lose out on Oil synergies is an unfortunate casualty, but a casualty I'm willing to accept.  I don't have much more to say about this, so if you, and possibly others, are still unconvinced, then go ahead and let Oil apply to all elements.

EDIT: On second thought, would anyone mind adding an additional Absorb: Earth to Defense Ring and simply scrapping Berserk immunity in exchange?  "Gaia Ring" would be a fitting name for this accessory.  At two elements apiece, this Gaia Ring would be comparable to the current Magic Ring.  Furthermore, Gaia Ring's Earth, like Magic Ring's Holy, is one of the elements the "big three" clothes (Black Costume, Santa Outfit, and Rubber Costume) do not absorb.  Oil immunity could shift to 108 Gems in this case.  That 108 Gems also has Undead immunity, which subsequently makes stocking Holy Water unnecessary for its wearers, is harmonious to design.

Eternal

My $0.02:

Chronos Tear: Could probably stand to gain Cancel: Slow as well.

Silencer: Please rename this. Mageslayer should do.

Alacrity: Yes, Focus would be a better name.



Black Magic: *cringes at Black Magic names* Can't we just have Tier 1, Tier 2, and -Back magic? =x

  • Modding version: PSX & WotL
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  • Discord username: eternal248#1817

Fantactic1316

I like -a, -aga nomenclature. Also, that's a fun word, isn't it? Nomenclature. =)
"D'you know in 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't important before."
-The Doctor-

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 am1. Knives: Repel Knife's new. I rather like it, even if it will backfire hilariously on units that block Don't Act. I vaguely recall someone saying this disliked Two Hands on Knives, but I personally don't care.


All or Nothing on Repel Knife means if either Haste or Don't Act is not able to be applied, the proc (should) fail, unless my memory is very bad.  As for not liking Two Hands on Knives, the ones not usable with Two Swords are basically short swords in the form of Daggers anyway, no reason you'd not be able to double-grip them.  Not that I care much of flavor and did the Two Hands stuff from a mechanical standpoint.

Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 amSwords: I'm actually kinda morbidly curious to see how Phoenix Blade plays out. It should at least fair better than Salty Rage when it had Slow, though that's probably not saying much...


The big difference between Salty Rage and Phoenix Blade is that you get to keep all your evasion (and Phoenix Blade has 25% W-EV), still do good DPS, still can use Shields, are immune to Undead, and have properly functioning AI that will use abilities / etc. instead of Berserk AI.  You also still get to keep your Accessory slot open, which often provides far more important buffs than your Weapon slot does.  So yes, it should fare much better than that old version of Salty Rage, I hope.

Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 amAlso, while no one else commented on it, do we still want Defense Ring to Block Berserk (instead of Silence) if Reflect Ring is blocking Berserk now?


The number of accessories that block Berserk are intentionally higher than normal because Berserk cannot be easily cured.  Undead protection being added to Accessories was done for a similar reason - both are very crippling when used as debuffs and only the Item skillset can heal them, so in turn more options for immunity should exist so that you're not automatically locked into "Bring Item or Bust" to deal with these statuses.

Quote from: The Damned on May 24, 2012, 04:14:39 amI think you got everything aside from the brief talk about how Archer's Speed Save probably needs a bit of boost to -25 CT. I think there was something else too, but that's the only thing that comes to mind presently.


I filed that under Thief because I was half asleep.  Would fix it, but effort.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."


Maybe I'm alone here, but I find there to be quite a charm to the numbered tiers.  Sticking to the 2 and 3 tiers was also kind of intentional thatisthejoke.jpg.

Not opposed to new names, but they should be good if we're gonna get fancy.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amDon't Move takes M-EV, too.


Don't Move is also the better status in any situation where the enemy isn't already Critical and also has a AoE boost.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amChange: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)


Bah, I forgot about this shit entirely.  I'll mess with it later.  I'm too half asleep to hammer out ideas right now.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amThat Holy/Dark elemental weapons also lose out on Oil synergies is an unfortunate casualty, but a casualty I'm willing to accept.  I don't have much more to say about this, so if you, and possibly others, are still unconvinced, then go ahead and let Oil apply to all elements.


You get it pretty clearly, but there is a far simpler solution than yours that gives us both what we want - Holy can simply be a non-Elemental attack, if defensive Oil users prove to be such a big issue.  We both get what we want this way, and almost nothing is lost, because Holy being Holy Element is basically irrelevant to everything.  All it'd need is the Y to be buffed to compensate for a lack of compatibility with Golden Hairpin and it's still the exact same spell as far as application goes.  You shouldn't punish many synergies for the synergy of the lone skill.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amEDIT:


I can mess with this stuff, yes.  Get something good going.  It will probably keep the Berserk immunity regardless for reasons I mentioned to The Damned, but an Absorb: Earth accessory could easily be made a thing.  We have the room and enough Accessories that would probably love the buff.  Not sure if Defense Ring should get the Earth Absorb, since unlike Magic Ring, Earth Absorb is actually relevant to things and Water Absorb will now be too, but something can get it and thoughts have been noted.

Expect stuff thrown at things with stuff and things when I am more awake.



And yes Eternal, we can make Chronos Tear stop Slow if you like.  It doesn't really matter either way.

The Damned

May 24, 2012, 06:19:44 pm #533 Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 06:38:21 pm by The Damned
(I swear, every time I think I actually improve this computer....)

Ugh. I still can't remember what I feel like I'm forgetting. So now it's going to nag me all day even though I just woke up three ago after staying up all morning again. Hurray.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
We should probably reassign spell names while we're eliminating tiers.  Do people prefer the "-a -aga" nomenclature of FF8+ to the "-2 -3" nomenclature before it?  This could be our opportunity to to switch over.  Otherwise, seeing that we have only two real tiers, "back" tier excluded, we could go with something unique like "Water" for tier 1 and "High Water" for tier 2.  Then commentators with humour as dry as mine could crack jokes like "this unit won't die come hell or high water."


Meh. For now, I think that Black Magic can keep its crappy names just because it's difficult enough to keep up with the changes as it is. Maybe after stuff is implemented and "we" see it's actually effective "we" can go for "funner" names to vary them. Considering "we" just nuked Tier 1 and Tier 4 and added Tier 2.5, I think we've got enough numerical confusion.

Speaking of which, why are "we" calling the Back spells "2 Back"? Can't "we" just omit the 2 and call them "Back"?

(I'm starting to feel like I'm using the Royal We because of how I keep putting that word in quotations.)

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
You probably forgot to mention this, but the CT>4 summons are going to need some buffs to make up for the M-EV nerf.  How's this?

Change: Salamander (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Fire elemental, 20% +Oil, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Leviathan (Dmg_F * MA * 8, Water elemental, 20% Dispel, 20 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Titan (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Earth elemental, 25 MP, 5 CT)
Change: Cyclops (Dmg_F * MA * 10, Holy elemental, 20% +Blind, 35 MP, 5 CT)

Salamander and Leviathan get 20% procs that mirror Black Magic (because I'm feeling unoriginal) and a damage boost so that they aren't laughably bad, Titan gets a damage boost so that Quake doesn't trump it, and Cyclops gets its CT reduced to keep par with the new Titan.  (I don't think +20% Blind is worth both 10 extra MP and 1 extra CT.)


I wasn't really thinking of Summon Magic, so that's not it.

That said, I can agree with all of these, though Cyclops is a bit iffy given how long Blind lasts and how Holy is generally less guarded (at least with Magic Ring currently overshadowed by Reflect Ring). I can't agree with Salamander if Oil boosts Holy or Dark, though, due to reasons that I comment on just below.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 amI'd rather add resistance to Oil over Silence, since nothing blocks Oil at present.  What do people think about giving Defense Ring immunity to Oil, Sleep, and Dead? (See the edit below.)

Also, I'd prefer to rename Defense Ring and Defense Armlet to something that elicits the concept of their newly nulled elements.  Coral Ring is on the drawing board.  Do we have any others?

EDIT: On second thought, would anyone mind adding an additional Absorb: Earth to Defense Ring and simply scrapping Berserk immunity in exchange?  "Gaia Ring" would be a fitting name for this accessory.  At two elements apiece, this Gaia Ring would be comparable to the current Magic Ring.  Furthermore, Gaia Ring's Earth, like Magic Ring's Holy, is one of the elements the "big three" clothes (Black Costume, Santa Outfit, and Rubber Costume) do not absorb.  Oil immunity could shift to 108 Gems in this case.  That 108 Gems also has Undead immunity, which subsequently makes stocking Holy Water unnecessary for its wearers, is harmonious to design.


Oh, right. Something does rather need to block Oil. I suppose I just forgot because I had assumed that Coral Ring was getting in and that took care of both Absorb: Water and Block: Oil. I think I also got distracted because, while Blocking Berserk is important given its unfortunately still infinite duration, I do feel that something else needs to Block: Silence accessory-wise.

As for your proposals, I'll do a short list here:

1. Current Defense Ring becoming "Block: Oil, Sleep & Dead": Ironically, I kinda want to argue against this for part of the exact same reason that Defense Ring probably wasn't used: these statuses don't really have anything to do with each other. Oil and Dead would only even be on the same set due to upcoming changes to Black Magic(k) and Summon Magic(k). While it may be an improvement over how incredibly niche Defense Ring was despite how dangerous at least two of its status blocks were, since that was obviously meant to be an anti-Mediator ring, it also still doesn't change the fact that Defense Ring would be one of the few accessories that continues to actively do nothing.


2. Renaming Defense Ring and Defense Armlet: I'm not entirely sure that's necessary, at least in Defense Armlet's case. I guess "we" could rename Defense Ring "Coral Ring" just because Raven wants it to Absorb Water now, but to me Coral Ring does more than that and blocking Berserk, Sleep and Dead don't exactly fit the "theme" of coral. Also, why wouldn't "we" be renaming Jade Armlet too if that's the case?


3. Gaia Ring: What exactly would Gaia Ring end up doing then? Absorbing Earth & Water and Blocking Sleep & Death Sentence? Or is it Blocking Sleep and Dead? Regardless, I'm not exactly sure that making it comparable to Magic Ring is something to be desired. As I've said repeatedly, due to the monopoly on blocking Silence that Magic Ring has (and will apparently go back to having), pretty much any element it ends up blocking/absorbing instantly becomes shit since like half of all magic users (and Talk Skill users) will always end up absorbing it (even with Robes of Lords around).

While Gaia Ring wouldn't have this monopolized problem, I'd rather not chance screwing two of the already lesser used elements, especially if Wind is going to get screwed over again; this even though it would have fierce competition what with the other accessories that block Sleep or Dead both having Initial: Reraise. It doesn't exactly help that outside of the new Black Magic, the relatively few instances of Water and Earth are all otherwise on the same sets of Geomancy, Lore and Summon Magic; I guess Ninjutsu is also exempt, if only because Earth doesn't appear there at all. So, at present, I'd rather not have something else absorb two elements when I'm still not comfortable with Magic Ring doing it.


4. 108 Gems blocking Oil: I'd be fine with this, but wouldn't that mean it would block four statuses in addition to also Strengthening All elements? While I don't exactly have a problem with that and while its blocking of Blood Suck needs to go die in a fire (or a running body of water), I just want to be sure.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 24, 2012, 07:45:47 am
I know we didn't (and most likely never will) conclude our discussion about Holy/Dark.  You raised good points before.  It seems we are arguing for different things, though. 

*Hakan interrupts*


No, I also agree with this. It also helps that I think that if we're going to be able to tell if Demi 2 gets legitimately improved--that's what I was forgetting that Raven didn't mention--in and itself, then it kinda needs to not become an instant death machine via Oil.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm also cautious about allowing the already stronger elements simply because all instances of Oil sans Nameless Dance also do (probably significant) amounts of damage by themselves; doesn't help that Priest is getting even better being offensive by getting Dia. Of course, that might not be a problem due to the aforementioned Magic Ring "problem".


Quote from: Eternal248 on May 24, 2012, 08:13:23 am
My $0.02:

Chronos Tear: Could probably stand to gain Cancel: Slow as well.

Silencer: Please rename this. Mageslayer should do.

Alacrity: Yes, Focus would be a better name.


I'm going to feel even more of an asshole than usual for saying this considering you're agreeing with the Alacrity-renaming, but I can't say I really agree with the other two things:


1. Chronos Tear curing Slow as well: Eh, I'm already rather iffy about Chemists being able to affect temporal changes; I only suggested that because it's necessary evil and a lesser evil than letting Esuna or Stigma Magic also cure Stop. Enough people carry Haste that getting rid of Slow isn't usually a big deal, though that's arguably an argument for letting it cure Slow as well. I'd kinda want to make Chronos Tear 150 JP again if it also cured Slow, though I'm not exactly sure if that's fair or just my hatred talking. Still, it would be nice for Chemist to not be able to cure some decidedly negative status aside from Charm and Death Sentence even if all it does is heal shit; if it didn't cure stuff at instant speed, then I would doubtless have much less of a problem with it. But, yeah, I guess "we" could let Chronos Tear cure Slow as well. I'm just...hesitant to do so.


2. Silencer vs. Mageslayer: I actually have to disagree more actively here. I think that "Silencer" fits with the projectile-nature of the weapon given the whole gun allusion in the name. "Mageslayer" also feels way too close to "Mage Masher" in name, even if it is more serious sounding than the canon knife's name. Regardless, "Silencer" is fine even if a bit on the nose; it's still far less on the nose than just calling the weapon "Cross Bow" again.


My feelings about Black Magic namse are already the first thing in the post after I start quoting.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmAll or Nothing on Repel Knife means if either Haste or Don't Act is not able to be applied, the proc (should) fail, unless my memory is very bad.  As for not liking Two Hands on Knives, the ones not usable with Two Swords are basically short swords in the form of Daggers anyway, no reason you'd not be able to double-grip them.  Not that I care much of flavor and did the Two Hands stuff from a mechanical standpoint.


Not that I think I have a stellar memory either, but I'm pretty sure that All or Nothing means either it will attempt to add all statuses at once or that nothing happens at all. That's a bit different from trying to add everything, but failing because one aspect is blocked, which I'm pretty sure is not what happens considering how Random and Separate work in comparison. I could be wrong though since it's been forever since I've been able to test anything.

As for the Two Handed Knives being "short swords", sure, why not. As I said (with that typo) above, I don't personally care. I just vaguely recall a person or two bemoaning how silly it would be.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmThe big difference between Salty Rage and Phoenix Blade is that you get to keep all your evasion (and Phoenix Blade has 25% W-EV), still do good DPS, still can use Shields, are immune to Undead, and have properly functioning AI that will use abilities / etc. instead of Berserk AI.  You also still get to keep your Accessory slot open, which often provides far more important buffs than your Weapon slot does.  So yes, it should fare much better than that old version of Salty Rage, I hope.


Oh, I'm aware of that. Please note that I said "Salty Rage when it had Slow", which is basically "Salty Rage when it was utter shit and unusable", hence why comparing anything to it favorably isn't necessarily saying much.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmThe number of accessories that block Berserk are intentionally higher than normal because Berserk cannot be easily cured.  Undead protection being added to Accessories was done for a similar reason - both are very crippling when used as debuffs and only the Item skillset can heal them, so in turn more options for immunity should exist so that you're not automatically locked into "Bring Item or Bust" to deal with these statuses.


Heal cures Berserk. It's just very few people use Basic Skill despite it being actually kinda decent and when they do, almost no one ever uses Heal. I can understand Block: Berserk being on quite a few things, especially due to its infinite duration. I was more arguing, as I explained in my reply to Gaignun above, that we kinda need another Accessory to block Silence unless we want Wind and Holy elements to become utterly rubbish again.

As for Undead, yeah, something else probably needs to heal that beyond the seldom used Holy Water, but given how much more difficult it is to apply than Berserk and that a good amount of equipment already blocks it, I'm not sure it's that large of a priority. It also doesn't help Esuna and Stigma Magic really don't need to help more things, though maybe if they cured slightly different things....

(Oh, this reminds me about the whole Esuna and Stigma Magic not curing Charm thing. I'm not sure where "we" stand on that.)

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmI filed that under Thief because I was half asleep.  Would fix it, but effort.


Wasn't there when I checked Thief while typing, but okay. Not a huge deal anyway.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmDon't Move is also the better status in any situation where the enemy isn't already Critical and also has a AoE boost.


Please explain, especially in the light that Poison lasts beyond death.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmYou get it pretty clearly, but there is a far simpler solution than yours that gives us both what we want - Holy can simply be a non-Elemental attack, if defensive Oil users prove to be such a big issue.  We both get what we want this way, and almost nothing is lost, because Holy being Holy Element is basically irrelevant to everything.  All it'd need is the Y to be buffed to compensate for a lack of compatibility with Golden Hairpin and it's still the exact same spell as far as application goes.  You shouldn't punish many synergies for the synergy of the lone skill.


Holy not being Holy element would be...odd to say the least, though I guess we can always rename it. Still, that seems like it would make Priests even better at attacking (not-Oily, not-Undead units), which doesn't seem like something they need.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on May 24, 2012, 03:05:30 pmI can mess with this stuff, yes.  Get something good going.  It will probably keep the Berserk immunity regardless for reasons I mentioned to The Damned, but an Absorb: Earth accessory could easily be made a thing.  We have the room and enough Accessories that would probably love the buff.  Not sure if Defense Ring should get the Earth Absorb, since unlike Magic Ring, Earth Absorb is actually relevant to things and Water Absorb will now be too, but something can get it and thoughts have been noted.


If "we" are looking for space for an Earth Absorb accessory, then can't we just use Diamond Armlet's space? That thing pretty much never sees use despite being theoretically decent between boosting both stats a bit and blocking something as crippling as Slow. It's only going to continue to not see use since no one has mentioned wanting to change it thus far outside myself IIRC, especially if "we" let Chronos Tear cure Slow as well.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

CT5Holy

Damned:
Heal doesn't cure Berserk anymore. It cures Charm instead.
Esuna and Stigma Magic do cure Charm, you clearly either haven't been paying attention or made a big typo.
Don't Move means several things can happen:
1. Unit can't retreat -> stays in range to get hit by stuff
2. Unit is melee, and now can't move around to hit people
3. Unit is itembot without throw item, and can't move to use items
4. There are plenty more, I'm sure, and it's all better than Poison.
5. Oh hey, remember Standstill? Yeah. Wouldn't work nearly the same if I gave them Poison Bow, would it? =P

Also, I'm against Chronos Tear removing Slow. I mean yeah, Slow's pretty darn powerful, but there's plenty of Hastes going around (maybe a bit less with Masamune nerf), and it just doesn't feel necessary.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney


The Damned

(...Some people seriously didn't notice the Kagesougi thing? Wasn't that like the very first thing brought up? I guess I can't blame people. Well, I mean, I can, but....)

Oh, okay. So I finally remembered the other thing that was nagging me: my Ribbons proposal about nerfing Ribbon a bit and buffing up Barette and Cachusha a lot so that there's actually reason to use them over Ribbon (even if only Monks can use them at present).

I'll have to see what page I made that on, partly because now I have another, related proposal....

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pm
Damned:
Heal doesn't cure Berserk anymore. It cures Charm instead.


Well I'm an idiot for not noticing that. How surprising.

When did that change? And more importantly, why? Seriously, Salty Rage lacked Slow before I left last year and I vaguely recall Heal still healing Berserk back then even after Esuna & Stigma Magic did.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pm
Esuna and Stigma Magic do cure Charm, you clearly either haven't been paying attention or made a big typo.


Uh, neither despite how shitty that post was when I initially pressed Enter.

I was referring to how I proposed that Esuna and Stigma Magic no longer cure Charm given that whenever a unit with either of those very common abilities gets Charmed, they pretty much always cure themselves of Charm. Kinda makes Charm somewhat pointless a lot of the time, especially since those abilities heal enough shit.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pmDon't Move means several things can happen:

1. Unit can't retreat -> stays in range to get hit by stuff
2. Unit is melee, and now can't move around to hit people
3. Unit is itembot without throw item, and can't move to use items
4. There are plenty more, I'm sure, and it's all better than Poison.
5. Oh hey, remember Standstill? Yeah. Wouldn't work nearly the same if I gave them Poison Bow, would it? =P


I'm aware of all of this. It doesn't really do anything to answer what I actually asked, especially since you're not Raven, about how Don't Move is more dangerous than a Poison that lasts beyond death. However, I might as well respond to these:


1. Units usually don't retreat unless they're either in Critical or Charging a spell/ability or healing themselves anyway. In the Critical case, Don't Move is less crippling if the Critical unit has no way to heal itself since then it probably dies where it's forced to stand. It can thus be revived rather than running away from the fight and likely being useless to the team unless it has Dance or Sing (or Quickening or Accumulate). In the Charging case, the unit that's afflicted with Don't Move can still dodge, while the Charging unit can't.


2. And? Melee units needing to get in range should be something that Don't Move can be used against and not be "punished" for. Seriously, the only status that melee/physical units in particular have to worry about at present is Blind; I'm not counting Don't Act or Stop or the other KO statuses here because those affect everyone equally. Gods forbid that melee units actually have to take precautions against the almost entirely unused Don't Move to make sure they don't screwed by range issues. I mean, why should they when long-distance physical units have to worry about Projectile Guard alongside Blind and mages have to worry about Silence, Berserk, Reflect and running out of MP. It's not like there's half a dozen pieces of equipment that block Don't Move either. So obviously it wouldn't be fair....

Heavy sarcasm aside, your second point also ignores that many, if not most, melee-weapon wielding classes have distance techniques built into their primary skill set. The only exception is really Paladin and that's only because it's losing Dia, which granted it could never abuse nearly as well as mage classes. Even in Paladin's case, though, it still gets a way to heal itself while damaging its enemies while (or even if) it gets wailed on via Grand Cross. This in addition to being tied for the second most HP amount of all classes.


3. Again, this is a bad thing? Given that Chemists have 100% accuracy with all of their skills and they have freaking Bandage, this point is extremely lame at best, pun intended.

Even if Bandage isn't something they have or even if it didn't exist, it's utter hyperbole to say that they can't use Items at all like if they were Don't Acted. It's more that they can't use Items on others...if they're not within 4 range, which is pretty damn far, or in Direct "line of sight". At worst, they can still Potion themselves until Don't Move wears if they're getting wailed on, which is hardly as crippling as you're implying. If we discourage obnoxious, ill-thought "Itembots", then that's basically an argument in favor of Don't Move needing to become stronger so those POS become far less prevalent.


4. There are plenty more what? I seriously don't understand this tautological sentence that doesn't actually say anything.


5. This is an erroneous argument for several reasons. Standstill was so abusive because a) Concentrate was around initially when it was created and even when it wasn't b) the Hunting Bows still did good damage on top of c) inflicting Don't Move at 100% and d) not be dependent upon MP or not being Silenced or Berserked to do so. So it's not even remotely the same.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not asking that Don't Move/Immobilize be buffed beyond Y = 75 or get around be subject to M-EV or even Reflect. I just don't see how the hell it's "more dangerous" than something it a) lasts 76 clockticks less than and b) that isn't dispelled by death like Don't Move is. Hence why I was asking Raven why he said that.

If his arguments are the same as yours, then so be it. I obviously won't agree with them, but at least I'll know. I'm still curious as to why he said that though given that you've actually managed to convince me even more that Don't Move is not more dangerous than Poison.

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 24, 2012, 07:42:55 pmAlso, I'm against Chronos Tear removing Slow. I mean yeah, Slow's pretty darn powerful, but there's plenty of Hastes going around (maybe a bit less with Masamune nerf), and it just doesn't feel necessary.


We can at least agree on something in this post, though at this point I'm already rather apathetic as to whether Chronos Tear cures Slow or not.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Gaignun

May 24, 2012, 10:59:42 pm #537 Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 11:06:06 pm by Gaignun
Quote from: The DamnedI can't agree with Salamander if Oil boosts Holy or Dark...


In comparison to "Fire 2", Salamander would offer +1 AoE at the cost of +8 MP, +2 CT, and +50 JP.  Oil aside, I think this is a fair price.

Quote from: The Damned4. 108 Gems blocking Oil: I'd be fine with this, but wouldn't that mean it would block four statuses in addition to also Strengthening All elements? While I don't exactly have a problem with that and while its blocking of Blood Suck needs to go die in a fire (or a running body of water), I just want to be sure.


That's right.  Oil immunity would replace the idle Blood Suck immunity.  Strengthening all elements is fine and all, but under the current trend to power up all accessories, it's a pricey use of an accessory slot.  Players are already using weapons, shields, and armor to strengthen elements whenever possible.  Now that we are buffing mantles and keeping perfumes around, I predict that players will go on doing this.  The Oil immunity is a tiny, but significant buff.

Alternatively, we can "reinvent" Defense Ring and Diamond Armlet to something like:

Coral Ring: Absorb: Water, Immune: Poison, Oil, Frog
Gaia Ring: Absorb: Earth, Immune: Berserk, Sleep, Dead

The Coral Ring becomes an imperfect "anti-wizard" accessory, and the Gaia Ring inherits the Defense Ring's role as the "anti-mediator" accessory.  (I changed Death Sentence immunity to Death immunity above, since Death immunity implies Death Sentence immunity; it makes the accessory a little more useful.)  Both accessories have absorption on the side so that teams can do something else with them when they're not up against the relevant job.  We might want to find Diamond Armlet's now-homeless Slow immunity a new piece of equipment in this case.

Quote from: Eternal248Chronos Tear: Could probably stand to gain Cancel: Slow as well.


I agree: Cancel: Stop and Cancel: Slow go well together as Time Magic counters.  I share The Damned's hesitation on this one, though.  In my case, I frown upon giving people reason to set Chronos Tear's JP cost higher than 100. I want people to be drawn to Chronos Tear for its ability to cure Stop and Stop alone.  Given how Haste is still around, players might not be willing to spend extra JP to cure an ailment they already can with a routine buff.  It's like an ISP insisting on bundling cable with internet for a customer who watches TV online.  It doesn't matter how much money you'll save on bundled cable; you're only interested in internet.  The fact that you are paying any money at all for a service you don't need makes the deal less attractive.

Anyway, if we can keep Chronos Tear's JP cost at 100, then I don't mind if it also cures Slow.

Reks

In the IRC, it was decided by FFMaster to call the Back abilities after those of Malak's skills in WotL.

IE:
Nether Fire
Nether Bolt
Nether Ice
Nether Water
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  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Barren

I actually like the coral and gaia ring idea. those would actually help out so many item bot tanks like palys and lancers who are fitted for those roles (at least using gaia ring)

and for the coral ring another good idea imo. helps again with at least the more annoying status effects. it'll help with the creativity among the new inspiring teams
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You dare cross blades with me?