Final Fantasy Hacktics

One more thing, mods.

Can you please allow us to manually control Guests such as Agrias in the next update?

Eternal's patch allow us to control Guests.

And when will the next update be released? It's been months...

Guests are not intended to be controllable and so will not be in future releases. You can, however, use them in random battles to help them catch up/power up if needed be.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 09, 2014, 08:52:40 am
And when will the next update be released? It's been months...

Chapter 1 will be updated to (hopefully) it's final form when we release chapter 2. Elric is working hard to get the rest of the events done, and myself and a few others have some to do as well, but unfortunately that's not the only thing left to be done. Chapter 2 is coming, but it will take a little more time to make it that much better.

Eternals patch is a not a story patch. Please don't ask us to do something just because a vanilla mod does it. Jot5 was built the way it was
for a reason and we don't intend to change that.

The next release will be when Chapter 2 comes out

No exact date?

BTW Is it just me or I'm the only one left here in this JOT5 section?

I only encounter you, mods/development team.

Where's everybody?

The site is slow lately.

I do not give due dates or ETAs until right before release, anyone that makes games or programs knows
why this is a bad idea, there is always something else that has to be done.

The site has many more lurkers than posters..

We're also all people with jobs and lives that do this for fun. The amount of work that has to be done to make JoT5 the quality that it is, is immense even with a team. Life could always jump in and complicate things though, so it's logical to not make an exact date.

Yeah, as has been  said, projects like this involve multiple people giving up free time to commit to this. Asking for a release date is probably not the best thing, especially if th team were to rush it just to get it out 'on time.' (not that these guys would, there'd be quality checks etc going on, I just meant project teams in  general.

Some of us also aren't around cos we're playing the patches! :P

Okay.

Sorry to bring this up but if you guys - Mods and Development Team - aren't going to give us any information such as Changelogs, Walkthrough, etc. How do you suppose to attract people to join this section? We need something to talk about in this section, right?

And you guys as the Administratives should take the first step to promote and invite/provoke people to join the board and make this section live. That can only be done if you provide something that could pique people interest.

I believe people lurking around here are eager for Changelogs, Walkthrough, Update, etc but since they found nothing, they just simply walk away.

BTW I'm working, too ya know. :P

Never mind my words. I'm just expressing my opinion. Sorry if it is a bother.

Soon I may leave the board, too just like the others did. I do hope this section could get traffics as many as possible and become more lively.

Good luck and thank you, guys for great patch. :cool:

I'll be a shadow that lurks around here waiting for Update. :P

I AM WATCHING!

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 06:57:24 amSorry to bring this up but if you guys - Mods and Development Team - aren't going to give us any information such as Changelogs, Walkthrough, etc. How do you suppose to attract people to join this section? We need something to talk about in this section, right?

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 06:57:24 amI believe people lurking around here are eager for Changelogs, Walkthrough, Update, etc but since they found nothing, they just simply walk away.

Creating changelogs would heavily affect Raven, who already has the most work of us all, which would considerably slow down future updates. Not only that, but JotF is freaking hella custom, there's no point in listing all the changes... it would be easier to list what -didn't- change.
I don't remember a gaming company ever providing Walkthroughs and such, that's the players' job.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 06:57:24 amAnd you guys as the Administratives should take the first step to promote and invite/provoke people to join the board and make this section live. That can only be done if you provide something that could pique people interest.

I thought that was the mod's goal... You don't find JotF interesting enough?

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 06:57:24 amBTW I'm working, too ya know. :P

...good for you?

As a final note:
Yes, it's easy to ask for all these things. But for most people, the amount of work involved is the first thing that would make them run away for their life. It's also not that easy managing a team of people who aren't paid. It's "If you don't work, I'll hope you'll do it later" VS "If you don't work, I'll fire you". The most considerate thing for you to do would be to move your ass and do these things you ask for. Otherwise, it's pretty inconsiderate to ask us those.

The problem is, for every person who wants to be babied with a walk-through, there's another person like me who seeks the novelty and doesn't want a walk-through precisely because it'll spoil the fun of having to think up solutions myself for battles.  I think Jot5's decision not to release an official walk-through is fair, especially since many of us are making videos of how to win for you to watch.

<3 You both

Quote from: Toshiko on March 10, 2014, 11:03:20 am
You want a changelog? Here's a changelog.

See those bugs you reported? Yeah, we fixed those. And other bugs we found ourselves.

Repeat. Ad nauseum.

You want a walkthrough? There are youtube videos out the ass. And a fan wiki that is actually pretty accurate. Stop insisting on Word From God as though you're entitled to it. You can bloody easily SEE what's missable just by opening it in Patcher and doing deductive reasoning.

Threatening to leave when all you've done is whine and complain and act like your view is The One True Way is a very empty threat, you know.

QFT.

Also,

Quote from: Xifanie on March 10, 2014, 09:16:49 am
Creating changelogs would heavily affect Raven, who already has the most work of us all, which would considerably slow down future updates. Not only that, but JotF is freaking hella custom, there's no point in listing all the changes... it would be easier to list what -didn't- change.
I don't remember a gaming company ever providing Walkthroughs and such, that's the players' job.
I thought that was the mod's goal... You don't find JotF interesting
Yes, it's easy to ask for all these things.

Actually, fuck it. What Elric said, just extended to all of you guys (Toshiko, Xifanie, Elric and FDC)

P.s perhaps these posts should be moved to the JoT5 Q & A Thread? It's kinda clogging up the bug report section. Plus, you know, all us lurkers might think you guys have done a horrible job with all these bugs whilst we're looking for our changelogs... :P

@Xifanie:
I've stopped ask for walkthrough or anything related to patch mechanic since yesterday by the time I read Elric's post(s). I don't think I'll find user(s) here who will share/make a guide to this patch anytime soon considering it's almost a year since this JOT5 was released and FFT is outdated.

No guide besides JOT5 wikia for a year...

JOT5 is interesting for me, but the patch does have some annoying features FOR ME. I REPEAT FOR ME:
1. I could tolerate Gained JP Up is removed from most of the patch here in FF Hacktics or insanely derpy, but Limiting JP to 10 per Action is... lame... It will take years to Unlock Ninja Class and learned all the best skills. I dunno if there is any out there who want to waste their lives playing the patch under such condition just to make his characters match up to Sephiroth or Ganandorf. I wonder why did the mods usually say "You don't have a life or You have no life"? :lol:
2. Monster, both in Story and Random Battle is definitely broken, but the AI coding is somewhat stupid or should I say "sometimes". To equally match up your character with this broken Monster you need to:
A>Grind your "JP" not your "EXP" like hell, unlock the Tier 1 Job and learn best skills with 10 JP per Act condition.

OR

B>Abuse save and load states like I did(Assasinate and Finish Touch = 100% Non-Boss 1 ACT KILL). :lol:

OR

C>Make use of AI's stupidity and commence the "Hit and Run Strategy"(You hit from afar, provoke the enemy to come at you by their stupid AI Coding then gang-bang/rape them) which people in insanely derpy say "The Real Strategy".

Otherwise, this patch has many positive things:
1. Free game. *Two Thumbs* Up!
2. Good Story/Ideas. It's still not great, though...
3. Good Mechanic = Most Jobs, Skills and Stats are changed.
4. Great Sprite.
5. Good Enemy's Scaling.
6. Etc.


Lastly, I believe I never ask you to do my homework, didn't I? :P

I figure out that it would be useless for me or anyone here besides the Development Team to suggest any constructive idea, because in your mind/point of view the patch is already PERFECT and you always counter-reasoning any idea(I do read every thread here). So I see no point to ask you to do my homework. I don't say that your reasoning is bad. Your reasoning is good, but since you always reject any idea given by the users here, that logic comes to my mind.

You = Development Team.

I do agree with your "It's also not that easy managing a team of people who aren't paid." Tough luck, man...


@formerdeathcorps:
I don't bother myself to watch your or anyone's video of how to win here... I'm a veteran FFT player and I got the hang of most Vanilla FFT mechanic. I have my own way to win the Story Battle with "Dirty Tricks" or "The Real Strategy" bragged by insanely derpy players. :lol:

Simply put:
1. In Vanilla FFT Story Battle = Level does matters, Skill comes second.
2. In JOT5 Story Battle = It's Skill that matters. Thanks to the Balance Scaling.
3. In Both = the higher your level are, the more difficulties you'll encounter in Random Battle. Equipments go as Chapter progress, unless you bother to steal High Lv Human Enemy's equipments. Monster growth large HP, PA and MA as their level increase, while we rely on equipments.


OH CRAP! FOR A SHADOW WANNA BE, I BLABBER TOO MUCH!

DON'T MIND MY WORDS, WILL YA? ;)

Quote from: Toshiko on March 10, 2014, 11:03:20 am
You want a changelog? Here's a changelog.

See those bugs you reported? Yeah, we fixed those. And other bugs we found ourselves.

Repeat. Ad nauseum.

You want a walkthrough? There are youtube videos out the ass. And a fan wiki that is actually pretty accurate. Stop insisting on Word From God as though you're entitled to it. You can bloody easily SEE what's missable just by opening it in Patcher and doing deductive reasoning.

Threatening to leave when all you've done is whine and complain and act like your view is The One True Way is a very empty threat, you know.

I don't see a point why you butthurting my post.

I bear no ill mean, man.

You're overeacting.

I don't threatening you or anyone here to leave. I'm about to leave since I already finished the game yesterday and about to move into other games while waiting for the next update. If anyone here want to talk about the game's mechanic, I'll gladly comply and join the thread. But since there's nothing to talk about, why would I stay here?

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
JOT5 is interesting for me, but the patch does have some annoying features FOR ME. I REPEAT FOR ME:
1. I could tolerate Gained JP Up is removed from most of the patch here in FF Hacktics or insanely derpy, but Limiting JP to 10 per Action is... lame... It will take years to Unlock Ninja Class and learned all the best skills. I dunno if there is any out there who want to waste their lives playing the patch under such condition just to make his characters match up to Sephiroth or Ganandorf. I wonder why did the mods usually say "You don't have a life or You have no life"? :lol:
2. Monster, both in Story and Random Battle is definitely broken, but the AI coding is somewhat stupid or should I say "sometimes". To equally match up your character with this broken Monster you need to:
A>Grind your "JP" not your "EXP" like hell, unlock the Tier 1 Job and learn best skills with 10 JP per Act condition.

OR

B>Abuse save and load states like I did(Assasinate and Finish Touch = 100% Non-Boss 1 ACT KILL). :lol:

OR

C>Make use of AI's stupidity and commence the "Hit and Run Strategy"(You hit from afar, provoke the enemy to come at you by their stupid AI Coding then gang-bang/rape them) which people in insanely derpy say "The Real Strategy".

Otherwise, this patch has many positive things:
1. Free game. *Two Thumbs* Up!
2. Good Story/Ideas. It's still not great, though...
3. Good Mechanic = Most Jobs, Skills and Stats are changed.
4. Great Sprite.
5. Good Enemy's Scaling.
6. Etc.


Lastly, I believe I never ask you to do my homework, didn't I? :P

I figure out that it would be useless for me or anyone here besides the Development Team to suggest any constructive idea, because in your mind/point of view the patch is already PERFECT and you always counter-reasoning any idea(I do read every thread here). So I see no point to ask you to do my homework. I don't say that your reasoning is bad. Your reasoning is good, but since you always reject any idea given by the users here, that logic comes to my mind.

You = Development Team.

I do agree with your "It's also not that easy managing a team of people who aren't paid." Tough luck, man...


@formerdeathcorps:
I don't bother myself to watch your or anyone's video of how to win here... I'm a veteran FFT player and I got the hang of most Vanilla FFT mechanic. I have my own way to win the Story Battle with "Dirty Tricks" or "The Real Strategy" bragged by insanely derpy players. :lol:

Simply put:
1. In Vanilla FFT Story Battle = Level does matters, Skill comes second.
2. In JOT5 Story Battle = It's Skill that matters. Thanks to the Balance Scaling.
3. In Both = the higher your level are, the more difficulties you'll encounter in Random Battle. Equipments go as Chapter progress, unless you bother to steal High Lv Human Enemy's equipments. Monster growth large HP, PA and MA as their level increase, while we rely on equipments.


OH CRAP! FOR A SHADOW WANNA BE, I BLABBER TOO MUCH!

DON'T MIND MY WORDS, WILL YA? ;)

This sums up my experience with the mod so far. it's good. but it could  have been great if balancing was taken seriously. I found myself playing certain battles because of my own tenacity, not because I was having fun. (that encounter with the 2 rangers, knight, and wizard all on chocobos...t(-.-t). Screw Sephiorth. THAT shit was hard. chocobo-cure spam on top of invigorate spam, and having poison spammed on me...not to mention all the enemies were 5+ levels above anyone in my party)

my biggest gripe with the mod, is that it somehow made one of the most pleasant things about the original game one of the most excruciatingly painful things in this mod.

And that is gaining new abilities and making new character builds.

Suggestions:

Monster skills should have MP costs. Everytime I see a chocobo I have to  bumrush it so it doesn't spam choco-cure on everything making my life a living hell. at least with enemy wizards/priests I can make an attempt to win a battle of attrition.

I agree that JP gains in the original were a little too high. but what is current is way too low. balance can be achieved. I have faith in you. you did such a wonderful job scaling enemy encounters. why the hell didn't you do it for JP gains?

Rather than limit player choice via xp scaling and jp rate, I'd rather see limited maximum JP per job. This would also allow you to add an ability to 'reset' JP and abilities once you hit max job level/JP saturation.

I can't say I enjoy the game in terms of gameplay, but then again, I can't touch that.

10JP per action is a real nightmare indeed. Even if you consider shared JP, that's a potential of up to 18JP for everyone in one action, whoo-. (excluding guests)
Raven's logic behind this was that you'd have access to higher tier job at the end of ch4 if the only characters you use are the 5 and only focus on unlocking jobs... or something.

As it stands, monsters can NOT have MP costs. They are hardcoded that way. So we'd need an ASM to undo it. I can't say I'm against the idea, but my opinion hardly matters.

You have to understand that Raven is in charge of the gameplay, and because he hates how FFT: Arena turned out, he won't let anyone butt in. If he doesn't agree with you, well, tough shit.

I honestly couldn't go through the game without cheating... I don't have that kind of patience. I praise those who do. I'm a tester and I've never beaten ch1 legit.

First off,
No one claimed the mod was perfect, nor do we reject ALL ideas mentioned by members here, as you claimed,
the game has changed a lot from it's original release, which was MUCH harder. (which is why Jot5: Developers Edition will
eventually be released)

Second,

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
@formerdeathcorps:
I don't bother myself to watch your or anyone's video of how to win here... I'm a veteran FFT player and I got the hang of most Vanilla FFT mechanic. I have my own way to win the Story Battle with "Dirty Tricks" or "The Real Strategy" bragged by insanely derpy players. :lol:

You reeeeallly confuse me here... First you want a walkthrough and gaming tips... Then you don't want to watch a LP (because THAT IS WHAT AN LP IS)
because you have your own way of doing things? What?
(And why do you keep bringing up ID? This is not ID, this is FFH, 2 completely different communities...)

Third,
Still not seeing the issue here at all, it has been stated since before release that we would never provide these things, collectively we have had well
over 10,000 downloads of Jot5. If one of those people has not made a guide or walkthrough or whatever you are looking for/not looking for (?), aren't
they who you should be talking to? I mean, the point is, we MADE the game, do we really need to play it for you too?

As for the battle mechanic stuff, I'll leave that to Raven

I rarely post here, but I was directed to this thread by a friend of mine who promised lulz. I wasn't disappointed.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
1. I could tolerate Gained JP Up is removed from most of the patch here in FF Hacktics or insanely derpy, but Limiting JP to 10 per Action is... lame... It will take years to Unlock Ninja Class and learned all the best skills. I dunno if there is any out there who want to waste their lives playing the patch under such condition just to make his characters match up to Sephiroth or Ganandorf. I wonder why did the mods usually say "You don't have a life or You have no life"? :lol:

Maybe this is just me, but it doesn't seem very feasible to be able to unlock every single job class and every single ability during Chapter 1 of an FFT mod. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
2. Monster, both in Story and Random Battle is definitely broken, but the AI coding is somewhat stupid or should I say "sometimes". To equally match up your character with this broken Monster you need to:
A>Grind your "JP" not your "EXP" like hell, unlock the Tier 1 Job and learn best skills with 10 JP per Act condition.

OR

B>Abuse save and load states like I did(Assasinate and Finish Touch = 100% Non-Boss 1 ACT KILL). :lol:

OR

C>Make use of AI's stupidity and commence the "Hit and Run Strategy"(You hit from afar, provoke the enemy to come at you by their stupid AI Coding then gang-bang/rape them) which people in insanely derpy say "The Real Strategy".

Few things wrong with this train of thought, but the largest flaw (by far) is that you're assuming you have the same limitations the enemy does. You have something they don't have: it's called a human brain. No, this isn't a petty stab at your intelligence, I'm being serious.

I also wasn't going to comment on this particular part of your post, but your opinion regarding what we at insanely derpy call "The Real Strategy" is flawed, because it simply doesn't exist. Lots of people have a wide array of strategies for any given fight (I'm not talking about just 1.3; this extends to Jot5 and other FFT mods as well).

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
I figure out that it would be useless for me or anyone here besides the Development Team to suggest any constructive idea, because in your mind/point of view the patch is already PERFECT and you always counter-reasoning any idea(I do read every thread here). So I see no point to ask you to do my homework. I don't say that your reasoning is bad. Your reasoning is good, but since you always reject any idea given by the users here, that logic comes to my mind.

As someone who has personally had conversations (regarding bugs, critiques, and what have you) with Raven one on one regarding Jot5 shortly after the Chapter 1 release, you're full of shit.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
I don't bother myself to watch your or anyone's video of how to win here... I'm a veteran FFT player and I got the hang of most Vanilla FFT mechanic. I have my own way to win the Story Battle with "Dirty Tricks" or "The Real Strategy" bragged by insanely derpy players. :lol:

Forgive me if I'm not convinced. I'll say again that you will not find anyone representative of insanely derpy that will ever brag about "The Real Strategy" simply because there isn't one.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
C>Make use of AI's stupidity and commence the "Hit and Run Strategy"(You hit from afar, provoke the enemy to come at you by their stupid AI Coding then gang-bang/rape them) which people in insanely derpy say "The Real Strategy".

You clearly haven't read my posts or watched my videos, or you would be very confused as to what "The Real Strategy" is. (Hint: It involves shooting Ramza with arrows while he's charging Meltdown next to Algus)

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm1. I could tolerate Gained JP Up is removed from most of the patch here in FF Hacktics or insanely derpy, but Limiting JP to 10 per Action is... lame... It will take years to Unlock Ninja Class and learned all the best skills. I dunno if there is any out there who want to waste their lives playing the patch under such condition just to make his characters match up to Sephiroth or Ganandorf. I wonder why did the mods usually say "You don't have a life or You have no life"?

It's... Chapter 1.  You were expecting to get Ninjas in Chapter 1? 

JP gain was heavily reduced because Journey of the Five is simply a much longer game than Vanilla FFT (Chapter 1 is about equivalent to 2 FFT Chapters), and there are a host of sidequests and other non-Random Battle options that can also be used to get JP.

Also uh, if you've actually looked at the JP Costs, most of them are reduced by a fairly large %, especially on higher end Jobs and abilities.  No Job takes more than 3000 JP besides Dante's Son of Sparda class to master completely and most skills cost 300 JP or less, so if you want a particular skill, you can get it reasonably.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pm2. Monster, both in Story and Random Battle is definitely broken, but the AI coding is somewhat stupid or should I say "sometimes". To equally match up your character with this broken Monster you need to:
A>Grind your "JP" not your "EXP" like hell, unlock the Tier 1 Job and learn best skills with 10 JP per Act condition.
OR
B>Abuse save and load states like I did(Assasinate and Finish Touch = 100% Non-Boss 1 ACT KILL). :lol:
OR
C>Make use of AI's stupidity and commence the "Hit and Run Strategy"(You hit from afar, provoke the enemy to come at you by their stupid AI Coding then gang-bang/rape them) which people in insanely derpy say "The Real Strategy".

So many people have done video playthroughs showing that this isn't the consistent experience (ie, the only times they "get stuck" are the battles that were made intentionally difficult for the resources I expected the player to have at that time) I'm not really sure how to reply.  I mean yeah, a few of the story fights (ie Sweegy Woods) and a few of the Random Fights (ie Bariaus Valley Randoms) are difficult - especially some of the out of the way random battles - but I'm not sure what you want me to say there.

I'm also not sure why you need to keep up with the random insanely derpy slander all through this post.  It doesn't actually... erm... mean anything.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pmOtherwise, this patch has many positive things:
1. Free game. *Two Thumbs* Up!
2. Good Story/Ideas. It's still not great, though...
3. Good Mechanic = Most Jobs, Skills and Stats are changed.
4. Great Sprite.
5. Good Enemy's Scaling.
6. Etc.

At least you had fun.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pmYour reasoning is good, but since you always reject any idea given by the users here, that logic comes to my mind.

If you actually read the changelogs that are posted, when each new version is released, you'd find this to be demonstrably untrue.  (JP costs and Gil costs particularly come to mind as things that have changed heavily based on feedback.)

Quote from: flowoftime on March 10, 2014, 12:10:41 pmEquipments go as Chapter progress, unless you bother to steal High Lv Human Enemy's equipments.

Random Encounter enemies also scale equipment by your progression in the story so this part isn't true in Jot5.

This means that monster battles are more difficult at a higher level, and human battles less, but at low levels humans can become exponentially more challenging due to your lack of Gil but monsters easy as your gear surpasses their leveling.  That's completely intentional.  It ensures that there is something to challenge the player regardless of how they choose to play the game - you can "customize" so to speak which will be more difficult for you to handle based on how you prefer to play the game.  It keeps your choice whether or not to gain Levels relevant without making it High Levels = Easy Mode.

Quote from: Xifanie on March 10, 2014, 06:05:12 pm
I can't say I enjoy the game in terms of gameplay, but then again, I can't touch that.

10JP per action is a real nightmare indeed. Even if you consider shared JP, that's a potential of up to 18JP for everyone in one action, whoo-. (excluding guests)
Raven's logic behind this was that you'd have access to higher tier job at the end of ch4 if the only characters you use are the 5 and only focus on unlocking jobs... or something.

Much better ways to handle this. 1) release new abilities and new jobs with new chapters instead of having things we 'shouldn't have access to' through excessive grinding.

I find it FAR more understandable to limit abilities based on chapter hard coded, than have the abysmal JP gains.

Quote from: Xifanie on March 10, 2014, 06:05:12 pm
As it stands, monsters can NOT have MP costs. They are hardcoded that way. So we'd need an ASM to undo it. I can't say I'm against the idea, but my opinion hardly matters.

You have to understand that Raven is in charge of the gameplay, and because he hates how FFT: Arena turned out, he won't let anyone butt in. If he doesn't agree with you, well, tough shit.

I honestly couldn't go through the game without cheating... I don't have that kind of patience. I praise those who do. I'm a tester and I've never beaten ch1 legit.

I'm not sure what Arena has to do with anything. two completely different games as far as i'm concerned.

if he doesn't like what I, or anyone else says that's really his business. but I feel it is a disservice to his hardwork if i don't post about my experience. negative experience should be taken worth more salt than positive.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 07:02:44 pm
It's... Chapter 1.  You were expecting to get Ninjas in Chapter 1? 

I had them in Vanilla FFT. They are there for me to unlock. I don't see the problem with it.

If we aren't supposed to have them, why are they there? it makes a lot more sense to simply remove them, and add them in when you want/expect us to have them.

if it's there, and it's possible to obtain through grinding, someone will try to get it. if you dont' want us to have it, don't put it in.

Any other argument, honestly, does not make sense. why do i expect to have ninja in chapter 1? because it's there and available to me

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 07:02:44 pm
Random Encounter enemies also scale equipment by your progression in the story so this part isn't true in Jot5.

This means that monster battles are more difficult at a higher level, and human battles less, but at low levels humans can become exponentially more challenging due to your lack of Gil but monsters easy as your gear surpasses their leveling.  That's completely intentional.  It ensures that there is something to challenge the player regardless of how they choose to play the game - you can "customize" so to speak which will be more difficult for you to handle based on how you prefer to play the game.  It keeps your choice whether or not to gain Levels relevant without making it High Levels = Easy Mode.

1) if you grind excessively and your level reaches a certain point, your equipment will not be able to suppress relative monster strength. what is high level? what is low level? we're stuck with only chapter one. If I reach level 11 before Bariaus valley am I too high? level 15? the only way to really gauge this, is if we randomly encounter monsters and find we lack the equipment to close the gap in strength. With JP gains gimped as they are, you can't rely on skills because of how gimped jp gains are.

2) I like dark souls because it is challenging. I can challenge myself further by limiting myself to certain builds (Halberdier challenge is one of my favorites). However in that game, And every other game, grinding does not hurt you. You can hurt yourself by grinding in this mod because of how scaling works. Gating content is not uncommon. Even in a game as open as dark souls there is gated content. in successive releases, if you dont' want us to have something: please gate it. many of us like to get all available things before moving on. if i'm only suppose to have 2-3 abilities per job, then only give me access to them. limiting by JP gains was a bad idea. there are much better ways to handle it.

3) I can't say this enough: if you don't want a player to have access to something because it's 'too early' in the game. Don't put it in. don't want me to be over level 30? put a cap. don't want me to have certain abilities/jobs? don't put them in. it makes absolutely no sense to put something in the game, and then say you shoudn't have access to it because it's only chapter 1. if i'm not supposed to have it, why the hell is it there



Obviously you can't change these things now. but moving forward i hope you consider this. The mod is good. but it's not great because of some of the decisions made in design. That is really the biggest flaw of the game. you put in things you didn't want us to have. and it bother me. a lot. that you would do this.

Quote
I find it FAR more understandable to limit abilities based on chapter hard coded, than have the abysmal JP gains.

If we aren't supposed to have them, why are they there? it makes a lot more sense to simply remove them, and add them in when you want/expect us to have them.

if it's there, and it's possible to obtain through grinding, someone will try to get it. if you dont' want us to have it, don't put it in.

if i'm not supposed to have it, why the hell is it there

you put in things you didn't want us to have. and it bother me. a lot. that you would do this.

I prolly coulda found a couple more times that you wall of texted the same point OVER AND OVER, but instead I'll tell you flat out, The game doesn't work
that way. I don't expect you to know this, because you obviously do not hack FFT. Classes are unlocked based on JP gain, not story progress. Barring some
extensive ASMing, I really would not ever expect to see this in Jot5.

But now you know. And knowing is half the battle!
[GI JOE!]

Maybe I'm biased here (because I originally rented FFT and played without a guide), but in all my FFT vanilla (and 1.3 runs), I never unlocked ninja until around late Chapter II or III.  Nor did I attempt the DD in vanilla on the actual console (it was my last day and I had to beat the game).
That being said, Raven's already being very fair.  Wouldn't it be better to have a small chance to unlock ninja in Chapter I rather than have the door be totally shut?  The latter implies that the game either has outlawed grinding altogether (which apparently is sacrosanct in a RPG), or there are lumps like per chapter level caps or job caps which do not flow with Jot5's plot.  (FFTA2 may be able to get away with it, but Jot5's plot isn't a coming of age story, which is the usual justification for such things.)

Quote from: Elric on March 10, 2014, 08:01:13 pm
I prolly coulda found a couple more times that you wall of texted the same point OVER AND OVER, but instead I'll tell you flat out, The game doesn't work
that way. I don't expect you to know this, because you obviously do not hack FFT. Classes are unlocked based on JP gain, not story progress. Barring some
extensive ASMing, I really would not ever expect to see this in Jot5.

But now you know. And knowing is half the battle!
[GI JOE!]

1) FFT Vanilla features abilities locked by chapter. Namely Ramza. His job may technically change between chapters, I can't remember. I do know he has more skills available to him, and he losses access to some from chapter 1 to 2. so if you did not learn them in chapter 1, you lose them forever.

while it may not be possible to hack this, I would put this as a limitation of the team. not the game. as it's proven to exist in the vanilla version. This may be nitpicking. but I know you guys aren't gods. you have limits to your understanding, just like I have limits to mine. but All i can see is it happens in the vanilla version. which means you should be able to do it too.

2) you are releasing the game in installments or at least piecemeal. is it really impossible to not include advanced jobs or certain abilities? (Again, i understand you can't do this now) 

If you are repackaging chapter one and two into a bundle upon completion of chapter 2, I could understand this. but as the game currently stands, you could have easily made a design decision to not do this for the very reasons i've mentioned: game balance and gating content.

Furthermore, heaven forbid, the team breaks up/moves on for some reason you have a stand alone game. not something that is incomplete, and will never be complete because of certain design decisions.

Games come out in installments all the time. Mass Effect is a great example. each chapter could easily have been stand alone. Less worry about savefile bugs when loading into chapter 2+. Everyone has to start over. It gives you more freedom to make the game you want without the cost of player experience.

3)Knowing is half the battle. Obviously I don't hack. but you've pointed out there is a way. Heavy ASMing. not sure what that means or is, but given the extensive changes you've made and the time put into it, i dont' find it unreasonable for you to try to make the best game you can with the tools available with whatever time constraints you place on yourselves.

But I also know things could have been done better. I stand by my statement: you included things you didn't want us to have access to (yet). they should not have been included. You say it's not possible. but it could have been by either

a) Heavy ASMing

b) better thought out installments per chapter.

c) stand alone chapters

4) Even if the game is repackaged upon completion of each chapter, the problem still remains. it will take an excessively long time to grind out jobs without a change to the JP system.

as was stated before, it takes roughly ~2600 jp to max out a class. that means 26 levels are gained. which means from 1-99 you can max 4 classes. There are a lot more classes than 4.

With a better JP system, chapter 1 doesn't have to 'end' the game. we could then be free to go through random encounters as much as we wish to fully experience the work you have done.

with the way scaling is, we would ensured to be challenged no matter what we encounter. Furthermore this could also provide valuable data for later chapters that are not yet finished.

Certain combos could be insanely overpowered and addressed before release because extensive builds have already been tested by the players.

5) the only good reasons i've seen for the system to be the way it is, is increased difficulty, you guys just didn't want it to be that way and/or were too lazy/unwilling to come up with a better solution.

Quote from: Onisake on March 10, 2014, 09:30:59 pm1) FFT Vanilla features abilities locked by chapter. Namely Ramza. His job may technically change between chapters, I can't remember. I do know he has more skills available to him, and he losses access to some from chapter 1 to 2. so if you did not learn them in chapter 1, you lose them forever.

Your Ramza is replaced with a different Ramza between Chapter 1 and 2, and again between Chapter 3 and 4.  No abilities are removed from his skillset during this process, just more are added to the end.  This is far from what you seem to think exists in the Vanilla version of the game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 10, 2014, 09:30:59 pm2) you are releasing the game in installments or at least piecemeal. is it really impossible to not include advanced jobs or certain abilities? (Again, i understand you can't do this now)

Both your posts seem to misunderstand something.  You're expecting easy access to something high end in Chapter 1.  That's not what we intend to do just because "Vanilla did it".  They're there if you want them or if you feel you need them but they have requirements that reflect the points in the game you are "intended" to get them by design - the late Chapter 2 - mid Chapter 3 area.  If you want them sooner you can get them sooner, but the further ahead of the "curve" you want to be, the more levels you need to gain - making monster encounters more dangerous.  You're free to play the game however you deem fit, but expecting to get the best things early on easily just because Vanilla let you is silly.  And yes, each Chapter will include the previous Chapter because it is one full game, not four separate experiences.  We're merely releasing it in parts so people can actually play it as reasonable portions of the game are complete instead of waiting around on a 2-3+ year development cycle for the full thing to be done.

Quote from: Onisake on March 10, 2014, 09:30:59 pmwere too lazy

lol.

There are going to be changes to a lot of things for Chapter 2 (including some things regarding the JP system) but for the purposes of Chapter 1 and the scaling within Chaper 1 itself the 10 JP per action system gives you timely access to the skills the Chapter is balanced around you having access to.

1) Ramza's skillset is additive.  You never lose skills.  It's also interesting to note that ONLY Ramza has "locked skills" (not Agrias, or Mustadio, or Beowulf).  The reason is simple: only Ramza exhibits the character growth in the story that would justify such additions.  Jot5 is not really a story about character growth; we have no good means of justifying that mechanic.
Another common method of justification is time lapse wherein Chapter I and II take place 2+ years about in the game's storyline.  If something happens to certain characters in between, unlocking new skills (or losing old ones) is justified, but it has to exist in the story for its own sake and not be tacked-on.  Again, Jot5 does not do this in between chapters.
As for having each chapter not accumulate the gains of the previous, that works best when
A) The units change between chapters.  One variant is the aforementioned physical / mental changes to existing characters (or a replacement of existing characters with new ones); another is the use of generic troops (so that you cannot be sure the generics you deploy in Chapter II are the same people as in Chapter I).
B) The gains accrued are temporary.  In other words, if all the bonuses are intended to be in-battle only (and reflect temporary states of heightened physical or mental prowess), then obviously, they should wear off when combat ends.
C) The game is real time.  IN real time games, it is often possible for a good player to beat the game with average or basic gear simply due to skill.  In such games, gear and abilities often matter less than your ability to dodge attacks and find opportune moments to strike.  Thus, resetting the gear in between chapters in such games is actually a means of increasing difficulty while still being fair.
D) The situation confronting the characters in Chapter II is so different that all the abilities and gear acquired in Chapter I are useless.  This works better if each chapter can "stand alone" as separate games.
It's obvious Jot5 meets none of the above conditions.  Furthermore, the starting scene DID erase everyone's skills to 0.  I'm sure Ramza (having survived all of FFT's plot) and the other heroes (many of whom were in active combat in their worlds) should have had starting skills (which isn't THAT hard to ASM), but given that 2 years have passed for Ramza and the way the other characters entered the scene, you can justify them all starting again as novices (even though the in-game reason is that we just started a new game).  However, to find 3 more excuses for the same thing happening is to stretch the incredulity of the player.  Furthermore, games work better if the difficulty curve generally increases from beginning to end.  Resetting skills and gear in between chapters makes it harder to follow this pattern.

2) The game is being released piecemeal due to technical limitations that can only be solved with a massive amount of ASM.  Once we accepted that, it was decided to release per chapter (rather than all at once) so people wouldn't have to wait three years.  Hence, it is assumed every release is meant to be part of an integrated whole (not some glorified demo for the full version). Of course, each chapter will be properly defined with a boss and a climax of its own, but there's no reason to assume Chapter I should be anything less than Chapter IV.

3) Your job locking proposal can be accomplished without ASM, but that aside, why is the game "incomplete" because it contains features you "weren't supposed to have"?  Wouldn't the game be "more incomplete" if those features were taken away and you were left only with 6 or 8 unlockable jobs in Chapter I?  If anything, all Raven did was a milder version of what Voldemort did in 1.3; he reversed the grinding paradigm so that an "easy run" is based on the intuitive strategies of a first-time player with experience at SRPGs and a "difficult run" involves over-leveling or "early tech tree scaling" of FFT "experts".  In other words, it penalizes those who overspecialized their playing style towards vanilla FFT.  Once you mentally adjust to what "challenge" means in this new system, the fun will flow naturally.

4) Unless Raven changed it since last I played Chapter I, you do have Move-Get JP.  It's not as bad as you say, but even then, the question must be posed.  Why do you have to master ninja or samurai or whatever else immediately?  Why not just buy the necessary skills necessary to win battles on your first play-through and worry about completion after you have a grasp of the game?

5) As for game balance, Raven is probably the best FFH has at the subject.  I'm sure he knows already what the maximum damage on any given unit combination is and he already set them within acceptable bounds.

Urgh... I fucking hate time differences... Missed all the fun! :P

Oni, next time you have a spare half-hour, consider getting the FFT patching tools and having a quick look through how they work. You'll soon find that there was absolutely no instances at all of the team being "lazy."

Regarding the JP issue, Raven's already covered this but I want to say my piece (cos I'm bitter bout missing it ;) )  the JP costs are lower, you don't need to master everything by Chapter 1 END and, quite frankly, 'ZOMG VANILLA DID IT' isn't the best reasoning, given that we're on a site dedicated almost entirely  to sorting out the metric fuckton of issues that vanilla's 'balance' caused regarding a good gaming experience/ challenge.

I, for one, hav unlocked all th jobs before and mastered them all (barring two jobs that need Chapter 2 and onwards to complete) not because I have no life, but I'v been quite ill erecently and had nothing better to do whilst recuperating. It's very tedious, yes, but totally doable to do whilst keeping levels low.  Even if it weren't, regarding your issues with monsters level scaling, if you're grinding JP even just partially efficiently, then you should be at a decent advantage (remember, it's skills and strategy/ TACTICS(huh, it's almost like the vanilla game title's trying to tell you something?), NOT equipment that make the difference both in FFT and JoT5.)

"Overpowered job combos" don't exist. Trust me. I've done between 8-10 playthroughs of Chapter 1 (none of which I bothered to use Move-Finds. Good to know they're 100%.) and a load of experimentation that has shown me that there aren't many/ any OP combos. There's plenty of great synergetic options, but if you're low level thenprepare for half MP to be in use lots.

Anyway, it's 4 AM here and I'm bloody exhausted. Leaving it like this just now. May add stuff later, or just wait for a reply.

O_o I still don't get it, I suck at these games, and I still never thought Jot5 was difficult, and I had nothing to do with the battles,
only the events. If you go in unprepared and never switch off to get Monk and/or Priest, well, You are meant to branch out.

The Alma battles (I really don't understand this) Since they were seriously made much easier.

I am anything BUT an expert and the only battle I had issues with extensively was Chicken Durbs. Everything else is balanced in a way
that is very beatable with proper planning.

Yeah, I had few problems as well, bar Goug fight 1 with Ramza and co. And that was just trying to get th hidden moves (which I got, but it wasn't strictly legit...) I always found the Alma sections easy enough, Mbarrier and Invigorate tended to put you well on the way towards success. Plus Shock/ Thunder abilities being 100% really helped.

Meh, guess it's just different playstyles. I'm also used to 1.3, and whilst this is certainly more challenging than vanilla, it sure ain't 1.3 difficulty. Will wait for the Developer' Edition for that. ;)

Note: I'm USED to 1.3, but I'm pretty crap at it. ;)

I also am not great at these kinds of games, and I only found it difficult until I actually unlocked the black mage job, then I breezed through the rest of the chapter until I hit ganondorf, which took me awhile but is was a very rewarding experience when I finally won, and then I beat ganon again and got extremely unlucky while doing so for a youtube video. If you watch that video you can almost hear me cringing everytime one of my abilities miss, but I still managed to beat him despite that.

I don't understand how you guys found JoT5 that difficult :| I found it to be a very enjoyable difficulty

I can't even get past dorter in 1.3...

Jumza, look up the history of Petals Around the Rose.  When I was first introduced to the game, I watched in sheer frustration as everyone around me, including people who were terrible at math, get the right answer while I was left making one wild guess after another.  It's very much an anti-mathematical game in that the more advanced math you know, the more likely you are to ignore the hint contained in the title and overthink the problem (because in math, the general method for solving a word problem is to change everything into numbers and then try to find a function that matches the seemingly random statistical phenomena).  A regular person, on the other hand, who doesn't have this preconceived idea that words are irrelevant, will quickly realize how the title is a hint and then deduce the correct function.

Analogously, I think we can argue that the more "expert" you are at beating vanilla by "cheap tricks", the less well you will do in Jot5.  That's why you, me, and Elric did fine, while those who were used to having high level units in Chapter I found the game sheer misery.

Okay all, thanks for the feedbacks. :)

1st I'm sorry for bringing insanely derpy up... It has nothing to do with FF Hacktics. My bad...

2nd Whoooaaa what a wall of text. I don't bother myself to read them all. :P

3rd As Onisake said we're stuck at Chapter 1(unless you pause the game and wait for update), we don't have anything to do beside clearing Marks, grinding and of course maximizing skills, money, items and equipments.

4th This maybe Off Topic, but I do have 4 Characters(including Ramza) with Maximum Brave, Faith, most of broken skills learned at Chapter 1 in FFT Vanilla. My fella even reach lv 70 with Chapter 4 equipments(Rune Blade, Black Costume, Bracer, etc) before the battle in Dorter at Chapter 1. He seriously need a life...

5th IMHO, JOT5 isn't difficult, It's damn annoying. If you're new to FFT, you're dead meat! You gotta play FFT Vanilla 1st before playing this. Difficult or unforgiving it maybe, it's still running on an emulator. Remember folks, emulator has a feature called save and load states. Abuse this and you'll finish the game with ease. Legit plays without abusing save and load states = stress, but most of you guys find this legit plays = fun. Well, at least I have my own fun and you have yours. :mrgreen:

Questions:
1. What's LP stand for? Videos?
2. Mods, did you work on AI Coding? I found that your AI Coding isn't so different from the Vanilla. Is it just me or most of the enemies usually charge me ALONE without forming a group and can easily be banged into slaughtering? Bosses are exception since they're freakingly broken.
3. Mods, why don't you add accessories that prevent Poison, Charm and Confusion? Is it because we're still at Chapter 1(a Chapter with Bad Breath, Venom/Poison, Charm and Confusion)? Bad Status without a prevention accessories = fun?

Quote from: Elric on March 11, 2014, 04:13:37 am
O_o I still don't get it, I suck at these games, and I still never thought Jot5 was difficult, and I had nothing to do with the battles,
only the events. If you go in unprepared and never switch off to get Monk and/or Priest, well, You are meant to branch out.

The Alma battles (I really don't understand this) Since they were seriously made much easier.

I am anything BUT an expert and the only battle I had issues with extensively was Chicken Durbs. Everything else is balanced in a way
that is very beatable with proper planning.

I.. honestly don't get it either. The only battles I had any problems with (granted I kinda skipped the marks, for reasons that will become apparent in a moment) were Sweegy Woods and Ganon because I wanted to see the new jobs and grinded like a stripper on her pole after tax refund day. The monster growths really screwed me there (Ganon's goons one shot almost everyone with one Kotetsu, and the rest die in the next turn), but I'm sure that if I went through it again without excessive grinding that I could pull it off without too much trouble.

But like kyozo, I too am used to 1.3 by now. I never thought that Jot5 was nearly as hard as people are saying, but maybe that's just me. I do make the distinction between fun and unfun difficulty, and for the most part Jot5 was mostly in the realm of the former.

I should correct myself. The second Alma battle (in the current version) wasn't so much hard as it was long. They both were most certainly made easier over time, just the second one only gives you the bare minimum to work with while the enemies chip away at you. It isn't what I would call hard anymore, just groan-inducing. By that point in the story, I have a well-honed utility knife of a team, and then get bumped off to a sidestory with undeveloped characters who are fighting what I could otherwise be tearing apart in no time, but instead must spend 20-30 minutes on a single battle. That is more what I meant. Not hard, just... long.

To date, the battles I've lost were Alma 1 (in the demo), and Ganon at least once in every version. Okay, and Bariaus that time I had everybody master their base job in the first battle. So I'm not saying it's difficult, it's just rough for the reasons stated. But I also think MP should be abolished entirely, so take that for what you will.

... I'm so glad I've never seen a pic of you IRL, Advent. That would be a bitch of an image to try an wipe from my memory. Thanks for that, was a fucking awesome simile though, I'll steal it for my writing... :P

Yeah, Toshiko, I get what you mean about Alma 2. I spend the first few turns Mbarrier/ ainvigorating, then Gunk Shot the Malboro and take it from there. Out of curiosity, what have you got against an MP system? I actually love the fact there are so many MP costs in JoT5, even though I didn't think I would. If you've got a unit using MP-heavy spells, stick MP Absorb on 'em and cast Invigorate, for example (assuming you have that, of course.)

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 11, 2014, 10:52:40 amYeah, Toshiko, I get what you mean about Alma 2. I spend the first few turns Mbarrier/ ainvigorating, then Gunk Shot the Malboro and take it from there. Out of curiosity, what have you got against an MP system? I actually love the fact there are so many MP costs in JoT5, even though I didn't think I would. If you've got a unit using MP-heavy spells, stick MP Absorb on 'em and cast Invigorate, for example (assuming you have that, of course.)

I loathe MP, and always have - especially in a game with CT. If you have CT, you already have your counterbalance. And when you have MP with skills that carry such a heavy cost that you can only use them 1-2 times PER BATTLE, it is totally crossing the line, by miles. If your battle system uses MP, I hate you. Use CT or cooldown instead of relying on a bullshit relic that should never have persisted into the 16-bit era, much less to present day.

Quote from: Toshiko on March 11, 2014, 11:31:41 am
If your battle system uses MP, I hate you.

You, uh, have many friends that enjoy traditional RPG mechanics...? :P

Sounds like my opinion on turn based combat in general these days. Ni no kuni did that shit damn well.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 11, 2014, 10:52:40 am
... I'm so glad I've never seen a pic of you IRL, Advent. That would be a bitch of an image to try an wipe from my memory. Thanks for that, was a fucking awesome simile though, I'll steal it for my writing... :P

Hahaha.

Quote from: Toshiko on March 11, 2014, 11:31:41 am
I loathe MP, and always have - especially in a game with CT. If you have CT, you already have your counterbalance. And when you have MP with skills that carry such a heavy cost that you can only use them 1-2 times PER BATTLE, it is totally crossing the line, by miles. If your battle system uses MP, I hate you. Use CT or cooldown instead of relying on a bullshit relic that should never have persisted into the 16-bit era, much less to present day.

I.. disagree, because from a developmental standpoint it makes it easier to balance stuff out. You have two things you can adjust to fine-tune it more (more than two, but strictly speaking on CT and MP). Whether or not Raven and Elric balanced it correctly* is another issue entirely.

*For what it's worth, I enjoyed it, as I said earlier.

Playing Ni no Kuni right now, actually. I groaned when I got magic and found I could use it twice before out of MP, and Oliver isn't physically strong. And enemies have, so far, not been kind in dropping the blue sphere things. And there are, so far, no MP replenishing items. Just save points and inns. And a world where you can't take two steps without something rushing at you.

FFXIII, loathe as I am to say it, has a wonderful battle system. It's easy to avoid fighting anything you don't want to, easy to pick a fight with what you do, and there's no MP. Actions are actions, just some actions take up more ATB slots to pull off. Simple. No bullshit. And the paradigm system is brilliant. What wasn't brilliant was how by endgame, you had a set party of the three characters you just ALWAYS use with a golden paradigm deck, and you approach every encounter the same. Boring.

Another system that worked really well, and one of my personal favorites: Skies of Arcadia. The SP system was brilliant; all characters' actions come from the same SP pool, which auto-increases every turn, and can be increased faster by using Focus. Just pretend it didn't also use MP. >.>

The only time MP has been used for pretty much every skill and not bothered me was FFX. Aside from having my favorite battle system of all time (instant turns! CT! Delay opponents' actions!), I honestly never once, not even in the very beginning, felt like MP was a hindrance. It was always in great abundance, and any character could get a 1 MP Cost ability while also having 99,999 MP. And this is a great example of why MP is pointless. There really was no reason for it to be there, because you never got down to 0. And yet, the gameplay was FANTASTIC. Fuck off, MP. Nobody needs you.

I will go on the record as saying I do prefer a Spell-Charge system to an MP system as a spell-balancing resource, but I use what's available.  Though, if I were to choose between getting rid of MP or getting rid of skill CT it would honestly be CT.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 11, 2014, 03:35:43 pm
You, uh, have many friends that enjoy traditional RPG mechanics...? :P

Sounds like my opinion on turn based combat in general these days. Ni no kuni did that shit damn well.

I hate Ni No Kuni's MP. You only have enough MP for a handful of spells before you're out. -_-

I agree with Advent's point of view.  It's always nice to have more variables to balance a game's features.  The MP system, in my opinion, is perfectly fair IF
1) Every class is MP dependent AND MP Regen is an innate
OR
2) Every class has valid non-MP options for offense / defense.
OR
3) MP-dependent classes (henceforth known as mages) are so powerful that only being able to attack once or twice is a necessary balance feature.

People will recognize that vanilla's magic system is a case of #3 early game.  It's merely that the late-game balance was wrong.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 11, 2014, 07:46:49 pm
I agree with Advent's point of view.  It's always nice to have more variables to balance a game's features.  The MP system, in my opinion, is perfectly fair IF
1) Every class is MP dependent AND MP Regen is an innate
OR
2) Every class has valid non-MP options for offense / defense.
OR
3) MP-dependent classes (henceforth known as mages) are so powerful that only being able to attack once or twice is a necessary balance feature.

People will recognize that vanilla's magic system is a case of #3 early game.  It's merely that the late-game balance was wrong.

I agree. I learned a while back that actually attempting to mod a game teaches you a lot about these things as opposed to simply playing one.

Sounds simple enough, I know, but it's something a lot of people* just don't get.

*I am speaking generally of course; not pointing out anyone in this thread in particular.

Raven's right about CT though; it is the bigger problem in FFT and there only seems to be three good ways to deal with it.

1) Kill or severely neuter speed growth.
XOR
2) Make the final CT of a spell decrease over time as a mage levels up.
XOR
3) Severely neuter the damage and "instant status" offense so midcharging is not a credible threat.

These are mutually exclusive as doing all three is overkill.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 11, 2014, 10:46:35 pm
Raven's right about CT though; it is the bigger problem in FFT and there only seems to be three good ways to deal with it.

1) Kill or severely neuter speed growth.
XOR
2) Make the final CT of a spell decrease over time as a mage levels up.
XOR
3) Severely neuter the damage and "instant status" offense so midcharging is not a credible threat.

These are mutually exclusive as doing all three is overkill.

Yeah. I know that 1.3 in particular suffers from speed in lategame (I assume other mods do as well, but I'll readily admit I have the most experience with 1.3 by a mile and some change). Number one is probably the easiest to implement, but number two is kind of intriguing to think about.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 09:56:33 pm
Your Ramza is replaced with a different Ramza between Chapter 1 and 2, and again between Chapter 3 and 4.  No abilities are removed from his skillset during this process, just more are added to the end.  This is far from what you seem to think exists in the Vanilla version of the game.

If you do not learn certain abilities, you lose the ability to learn them. other abilities are added. this may have been a bug on one of my play throughs, but I remember distinctly losing the chance to learn an ability when the chapter changed because i didn't learn it before it ended, and ramza's change added new abilities.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 09:56:33 pm
Both your posts seem to misunderstand something.  You're expecting easy access to something high end in Chapter 1.  That's not what we intend to do just because "Vanilla did it".

I understand perfectly. what you're not understanding is I agree with your logic. but not your implementation. There is a big difference here. i'm talking about core design, not core logic.

You say you don't think we should  have access to certain things at the end of chapter 1. you then say if you really want to you can grind to get it, but there will  be major consequences.

This doesn't make any sense. It's clear you don't want us to have it. so i'll say it again: why is it there? This question has not been answered.

The answer could be simply: we don't have the capability to add the class in chapter 3, but exclude it in chapter 1. This nonsense about 'oh, you can get it if you really want to grind it out.' and then saying 'it's chapter 1, why do you expect to have it?' needs to stop.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 09:56:33 pm
They're there if you want them or if you feel you need them but they have requirements that reflect the points in the game you are "intended" to get them by design - the late Chapter 2 - mid Chapter 3 area.  If you want them sooner you can get them sooner, but the further ahead of the "curve" you want to be, the more levels you need to gain - making monster encounters more dangerous.

Let me take a different approach. what level do you expect us to be around the battle of sweegy woods? I was about level 10 on my first playthrough.

This means I had roughly 1000 jp to work with.

Like you've stated before. certain abilities each character must have (hence forcing you into chemist role to get access to  new jobs) however in order to get chemist to the correct job level, you must earn ~300-400 jp to reach the correct level, depending on if you want to get access to mages or knights on that chracter.

Given that once you are past chemist, you are more likely to take your base skill set from the base class over item. you really only need 1 or 2 characters with access to these abilities, provided one of them isn't ramza who has encourage, wish, and cheer up to support himself/allies with.

So really, by this point I have 600-700 JP to work with. If I get the essential skills on someone like ramza, the remaining jp is used on his base class to get encourage, heal, cheerup, and sturdy. the remaining jp is spent on chemist. crystals do not help in this regard because 1) you must gain this JP on chemist to unlock other jobs for later. 2) you cannot gain base class abilities through crystals.

so all of my characters where about the same. with ~600 jp or so spent on base class. and ~400 spent on chemist (not necessarily on abilities, but to get it to a certain job level)

For me, this is one thing that made sweegy woods difficult. I lacked the utility gained from knight, priest, wizard.

My second playthrough I realized that it's not beneficial to leave some characters on their base class to learn those abilities. having link, dante, and cloud only get 200-300 JP on their base class, to free up more JP to spend on knight/priest/wizard.

This second time, I also spent more time derping around in battles to wait for crystals to gain more abilities. but again, this is only beneficial AFTER chemist. you cannot gain abilities for your base class, and you must still earn JP on chemist to raise its job level.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 09:56:33 pm
You're free to play the game however you deem fit, but expecting to get the best things early on easily just because Vanilla let you is silly.  And yes, each Chapter will include the previous Chapter because it is one full game, not four separate experiences.  We're merely releasing it in parts so people can actually play it as reasonable portions of the game are complete instead of waiting around on a 2-3+ year development cycle for the full thing to be done.

Actually. No i'm not. I'm free to play it how I deem fit only if i'm skilled and capable of dealing with the consequences. which is a big caveat. My third play through I got to level 15 or so before Bariaus Valley.

needless to say, the monster encounters became extremely difficult. especially when I had switched to a new class. with no abilities, and having to rely purely on subskills these battles become excruciatingly difficult. especially anything with chocobos. furthermore, you often have to go through several battles of having one or two characters being near useless in a battle already stacked against you.

I bring up Vanilla because that is the game this is  based off of. Anything In Vanilla, you can do. lacking the skill to do that is different than saying it's outright not possible.

For base class at least, you could have replaced the main 5 from chapter 1 to 2 to 'force' us into chemist faster so we dont' waste precious levels on learning abilities on base class.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 09:56:33 pm
lol.

Best response to  being called lazy ever. in most cultures laughing is a sign of embarrassment. Am i reading too much into it?

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on March 10, 2014, 09:56:33 pm
There are going to be changes to a lot of things for Chapter 2 (including some things regarding the JP system) but for the purposes of Chapter 1 and the scaling within Chaper 1 itself the 10 JP per action system gives you timely access to the skills the Chapter is balanced around you having access to.

It's nice to know that changes are coming. this is the only game i've ever played that actually  punishes you for grinding. and I find that both odd, frustrating, and fun. unfortunately it got more frustrating than fun after a while.

A lot of indie developers tend to ignore the math of balance. by nature, most people are not theory crafters, and not many people possess the knowledge to properly apply mathmatical models to balance or game design.

As it stands, by the end of chapter 1 you will be about level 26. between 20 and 30 for sure. over 30 seems to high based on monster difficulty. below 20 seems to low based on other encounters.

so by the end of chapter 1, you are expected to have about 2600 jp. about 1000 of this will be tied up in base class. leaving you 1600 jp to play with on knight/wizard/priest. at this point, things start to feel pretty good. you have a pretty healthy set of abilities to pull from. but untill level 15 or so, you don't really have a healthy amount of options. your first 1000 jp, or 10 levels, are spent learning 'essential skills' that some of your characters don't really need. it depends on the strategy you decide to employ.

but for the first 10 or so levels, you don't give me the option of deciding my strategy. I must level chemist. meaning i must use these abilities for a while.

I don't  have the option of taking Dante or Ramza directly into the knight class. I must take them through chemist. even though I could have snake, cloud, and link with enough support abilities this isn't needed. Everyone must learn essential skills. I think that's how you put it.

Rather than being able to make a cohesive team I've been forced, by you the developer, to make each member of my party an self-sufficient unit for the first half of the chapter. you can't possibly in good conscience say i'm free to build my team how i wish, when you force me to spend 2 or 3 levels on chemist.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
Best response to  being called lazy ever. in most cultures laughing is a sign of embarrassment. Am i reading too much into it?

Let me just address this. He lol'd because modding anything in FFT requires a great deal of work. A story patch like JoT5 specifically is impossible to create if you're lazy. Even highly motivated people have a hard time finalizing and releasing a patch. So if you make this accusation, it's certain to strike a sore spot. In addition to designing and implementing the patch itself, we've put out quite a few tools that we develop ourselves, some of them for the sake of the community to use to make modding easier. Come to think of it, we've all probably spent more time modding FFT than playing it at this point.

Yes this workload can lead to taking the easier road with some decisions which can be interpreted as laziness, but I've yet to see a decision made that sacrifices quality for ease in an appreciable way. Not every decision is correct and they're all subject to opinion, but very few are out of laziness.

I agree with some of your other points.. the beginning of RPG games are always the most restrictive time and I always hated that. I never liked how chemist was required to unlock magic classes in vanilla. Given the overall product though, it's not a huge deal for me. And given that I've played about 5 battles in JoT5, the weight of my opinion is light.

I haven't read the rest yet but I can tell you if you lost to learn a skill then
the iso was completely glitched in some way. Ramzas skillsets do NOT work this way
at all, and you never lose a chance to learn any skills. Load up an iso in fftp and
look at his 3 guts classes if you don't believe me. Only additions are made

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
1) Ramza's skillset is additive.  You never lose skills.  It's also interesting to note that ONLY Ramza has "locked skills" (not Agrias, or Mustadio, or Beowulf).  The reason is simple: only Ramza exhibits the character growth in the story that would justify such additions.  Jot5 is not really a story about character growth; we have no good means of justifying that mechanic.

Excluding ramza and cloud, each of the other heroes is new to Ivalice. This is a brand new experience for them. you expect me to believe they get absolutely nothing out of it? they don't develop themselves or learn anything new at all?

What about Ramza losing all the abilities he gained? did he forget everything he learned in the first game? what about cloud? Agrias? etc. you take certain liberties when you create a new game that happened after the first. one of those is inexplicably resetting some people to level 1 and having no abilities.

It makes sense for dante, link, cloud, and snake to reset to level 1, because they are in a new world, with 'new bodies.' they have to relearn a few things. but to say they don't learn anything and experience no character growth seems more odd than saying you have no justification for them to experience character growth.

In reality, meeting and getting to know one more person can improve your character, give you a new point of view, etc. this may be a little too philosophical. 

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
Another common method of justification is time lapse wherein Chapter I and II take place 2+ years about in the game's storyline.  If something happens to certain characters in between, unlocking new skills (or losing old ones) is justified, but it has to exist in the story for its own sake and not be tacked-on.  Again, Jot5 does not do this in between chapters.

Again, character growth. character growth doesn't have to happen over years of time.

Take this: Dante shows disdain for Snakes' way of fighting. for being sneaky etc. Dante is a very in-your-face kind of character.

At the end of chatper 1, Dante maybe gets injuried or something and snake has to help him escape without drawing attention. Dante then realizes there is merit in the way snake does this. he then teaches himself to take a 'sneaky/tricky' way to combat, but in his own style. unlocking his trickster line of skills.

OR:

once chapter two begins, you could just have each character start with the base skills and job levels you expected them to have at the end of chapter 1.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
As for having each chapter not accumulate the gains of the previous, that works best when
A) The units change between chapters.  One variant is the aforementioned physical / mental changes to existing characters (or a replacement of existing characters with new ones); another is the use of generic troops (so that you cannot be sure the generics you deploy in Chapter II are the same people as in Chapter I).

Physical/mental changes? you mean character growth? >.>

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
B) The gains accrued are temporary.  In other words, if all the bonuses are intended to be in-battle only (and reflect temporary states of heightened physical or mental prowess), then obviously, they should wear off when combat ends.

So everything Cloud and Ramza, Agrias, etc. learned in Vanilla was temporary?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
C) The game is real time.  IN real time games, it is often possible for a good player to beat the game with average or basic gear simply due to skill.  In such games, gear and abilities often matter less than your ability to dodge attacks and find opportune moments to strike.  Thus, resetting the gear in between chapters in such games is actually a means of increasing difficulty while still being fair.

This is a turn  based strategy game. Not dark souls. Stop trying to make it dark souls. It's not dark souls.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
D) The situation confronting the characters in Chapter II is so different that all the abilities and gear acquired in Chapter I are useless.  This works better if each chapter can "stand alone" as separate games.

This is my point. the team could have easily picked this route. you didn't. That's perfectly fine. but saying you can't is different then saying you won't.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
It's obvious Jot5 meets none of the above conditions.  Furthermore, the starting scene DID erase everyone's skills to 0.  I'm sure Ramza (having survived all of FFT's plot) and the other heroes (many of whom were in active combat in their worlds) should have had starting skills (which isn't THAT hard to ASM), but given that 2 years have passed for Ramza and the way the other characters entered the scene, you can justify them all starting again as novices (even though the in-game reason is that we just started a new game).  However, to find 3 more excuses for the same thing happening is to stretch the incredulity of the player.  Furthermore, games work better if the difficulty curve generally increases from beginning to end.  Resetting skills and gear in between chapters makes it harder to follow this pattern.

I don't think it's as obvious as you think.

It is a new game. no-one is going to question resetting to 0 in a new game. it's expected.

Finding 3 excuses can be easy, depending on how the story is written. A lot of different things are happening In Ivalice. we're seeing bleed in from FFT, FF7, and from across dimensions having Dante, Snake, and link appear in Ivalice. The balance of the world is clearly being upset. it isn't that unreasonable to see drastic changes happening to the world between chapters. maybe it starts to merge with other worlds. at this point the same reasoning can be used when you started the game. the characters are now in a 'different' world. it's no longer Ivalice. but Ivalice+Hyrule or w/e.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
2) The game is being released piecemeal due to technical limitations that can only be solved with a massive amount of ASM.  Once we accepted that, it was decided to release per chapter (rather than all at once) so people wouldn't have to wait three years.  Hence, it is assumed every release is meant to be part of an integrated whole (not some glorified demo for the full version). Of course, each chapter will be properly defined with a boss and a climax of its own, but there's no reason to assume Chapter I should be anything less than Chapter IV.

that's not the point i'm arguing. I'm arguing about progress balance. You're talking about a lot of things i'm not.

You are expected to be in a certain level range at the end of a chapter. According to Raven, being anything above level 30 or so means you've been grinding too much. you will 'pay' for this transgression with harder monster battles. this is a decision you made. (even if you didn't realize the consequences because you dont' read any of the forums)

This makes it easy to determine how much JP you expect someone to have. the example I used earlier, sweegy woods seems to be a level 10 battle. meaning each character should have roughly 1000 jp. It's likely that you will have more abilities than this, but given the wild card that its fairly random what random encounters you will get (monsters, or npcs with learnable skills), weather you or the enemy picks up a crystal, weather its more important for that character to regain health/mp or abilities, weather you've already learned the abilities the npc has, etc.

That being said, it is prudent to assume worst case scenario. This is a fundamental of design.

Coupled with the fact that we are 'forced' into learning on chemist, your first 10 levels will be balanced between base class and chemist, unless you decide to not learn any base abilities. Either way, for future chapters you will still want to get both base class and chemist to level 3 or 4. which will be roughly the first 10 levels.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
3) Your job locking proposal can be accomplished without ASM, but that aside, why is the game "incomplete" because it contains features you "weren't supposed to have"?  Wouldn't the game be "more incomplete" if those features were taken away and you were left only with 6 or 8 unlockable jobs in Chapter I?

No. the game would not be more incomplete, but more complete. Raven has a vision in his  head. he expects you to have progressed your character a certain way. (this is obvious because of Chemist)

It's not uncommon at all for games to limit your progress based on chapter. In persona, you can only fuse certain persona at certain stages of the game, because more powerful ones aren't available. they only exist at a later stage of the game. this is the same principle.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
If anything, all Raven did was a milder version of what Voldemort did in 1.3; he reversed the grinding paradigm so that an "easy run" is based on the intuitive strategies of a first-time player with experience at SRPGs and a "difficult run" involves over-leveling or "early tech tree scaling" of FFT "experts".  In other words, it penalizes those who overspecialized their playing style towards vanilla FFT.  Once you mentally adjust to what "challenge" means in this new system, the fun will flow naturally.

but it is fundamentally the same system. it follows the same rules. the only thing that has changes is the scaling and the rate at which you can gain JP.

what this translates to, is that you can only gain a certain amount of JP per level. your level determines what jobs you can potentially have unlocked.

because there are hard coded requirements, and you must earn JP on a given class to progress to the next, you can calculate that you must be X level to unlock Y job. under the assumption you gain 10xp and 10 jp per action. yes i know xp varies, but on average it will likely be 10xp. you also gain more xp for hitting higher level things. so it will all balance out to roughly this. the only way to 'abuse' this is to bring level 1 characters to murder over and over. this has its own risks, as you're basically down a man for whatever random encounter you are in.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
4) Unless Raven changed it since last I played Chapter I, you do have Move-Get JP.  It's not as bad as you say, but even then, the question must be posed.  Why do you have to master ninja or samurai or whatever else immediately?  Why not just buy the necessary skills necessary to win battles on your first play-through and worry about completion after you have a grasp of the game?

so I should spend my time moving and not performing actions for hours to learn abilities without raising my level? >.>;; really?

With the exception of snake's base class, everyone else will be limited to 3-4 squares per turn. meaning you can gain 3-4 more jp per action. that's assuming you ALWAYS move the maximum amount per character turn. which more often than not, is not a good idea. but you will also lose any tactical advantage to jump+1 or jump+2 which you can get early access to. In a game like this, mobility is important.

move JP isn't a bad ability. but after a while, taking it over something else is a bad tactical decision.

secondly, shouldn't it be up to me and my strategy to decide what abilities I need to complete the story? I'm not saying I need ninja/samurai. But I'd really not have everyone in my party base+chemist for the first 10 levels. I'd like to branch out a little more than that.

In the long run this won't be a big deal. but this is the problem with balancing progress. yes, in chapter 4 the 400 jp i spent on chemist won't be that big a deal, because it's 5% of my total JP. but the first 10 levels that can be roughly half of your JP. that's fairly significant. once you move past chemist to knight/wizard/preist. you will be giving up roughly half your JP for the next battle, you can't bring both your base skill and item once you first switch. you have to make a choice.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 10, 2014, 11:37:24 pm
5) As for game balance, Raven is probably the best FFH has at the subject.  I'm sure he knows already what the maximum damage on any given unit combination is and he already set them within acceptable bounds.

the battles themselves are well balanced. challenging. I like them. A lot. More than i'm letting on. I'm complaining a lot because i've invested myself into it. I really enjoy it.

that also means i want to help, in whatever small way I can, to make the game better.

The only thing the game is really lacking right now is balanced character progression. which is extremely easy to adjust, because it's only around JP gains.

I know the game is not completed. I know this is only chapter 1. What i'm saying is, early on, JP gains are not balanced. it is too low. i'm not saying make it so i can get Samurai by level 20. but I would like more tactical options by level 10. Certain battles become excessively difficult when the NPCs can spam an infinite number of phoenix downs and invigorate everyone on their team and have chocobos spamming choco-cure for free and ranger spamming poison. When all I have access to is item and a few base skills.

the biggest problem is when switching away from chemist at level 10, you are left too weak to do anything because you've lost half your JP resources. you can only progress one character at a time past chemist or risk leaving yourself too weak to deal with the next encounter. your options are to take this risk, or reduce the risk my gaining more levels and JP to 'close the gap' on subskill utility and the ability of the rest of the team to keep that person alive. but waiting carries different risks also, because higher level means more difficult encounters.

As the game progresses, this problem will not go away. Each time I switch a character to a new class, they will only have half a skillset available to them. because JP does not scale with level, but every encounter does, you will forever be left at a disadvantage until you reach a certain point.

You are essentially forced to either not switch that charcter  until you've collected a certain number of crystals and learned abilities that way. (which will involve a lot of resetting to try to get certain NPCs sto spawn so you can try to get their crystals. and then hope they have something you can actually learn and you don't gain too many levels in the process) or wait to switch to other classes until the rest of your team is strong enough to carry a weaker character until they can grind out JP and make themselves useful to the team again.

The problem with the former is obvious. it's excessive and borderline abuse of the system. The second is time consuming and poses a different problem entirely. if the 'useful' abilities are 300-400 JP than your character is useless for 3-4 levels. which can be several encounters.

Quote from: Elric on March 12, 2014, 11:50:47 am
I haven't read the rest yet but I can tell you if you lost to learn a skill then
the iso was completely glitched in some way. Ramzas skillsets do NOT work this way
at all, and you never lose a chance to learn any skills. Load up an iso in fftp and
look at his 3 guts classes if you don't believe me. Only additions are made

This was on my original game disk on one of my original play through. No ISO was used.

On that play through i didn't really use Ramza's base class. I didnt plan on using any of the abilities he had there, so i didn't bother to unlock them. I was essentially rushing to monk, and gave him item as his subskill.

I honestly did not explore it further. I didn't really care. in anycase, this isn't the key point i was trying to make. in retrospect i shouldn't have mentioned it or continued to elaborate. the point is, it is possible to add skills to characters as the chapters progress.

Yes, by using a completely different job slot, which is not economical to do for so many characters. It simply can't be done without sacrificing others.

Edit: I should probably rephrase. It may be possible to lock abilities out by an as yet unwritten ASM hack that nobody's looked into, as far as I know. Until such a hack exists, if it ever will, the only option is doing it the Vanilla way, which is using up job slots.

Christ, where to begin?

"Am  I reading too much into it?" Yes. Very much so. All I've done is tedious stuff like text edits (for a totally different project), and I can tell you that being "lazy" doesn't at all work as part of a development team for a project of this magnitude/ scope, as Choto has said.

"This doesn't make any sense. It's clear you don't want us to have it. so i'll say it again: why is it there? This question has not been answered."

Umm, it's there because this is an SRPG that contains a job roster... And it makes far more sense to get jobs/abilities/ battle system  done as early as possible whilst you're doing the first few jobs you expect the player to have access to. That's common sense, right? I'm not being completely dense with these statements, am I?

You're also not 'forced' to learn any abilities if you don't want to. You need to go around the jobs in the tree in order to progress further and unlock the more advanced jobs, and that's just how it is TEMPORARILY, as Raven has already stated. You could always invest in throaway generics as they are only a fraction of the price they were in vanilla, as well as spillover JP to keep your main party levels lower. OR, as you're on an emulator, you could cheat your jobs to be unlocked and with max JP.

These options are all available to anybody playing the patch, man. And Chemists are useful, dunno why you're particularly against using 'em. Even if you don't have all 5 in their base jobs, they can still get spillover (however meager) from fights and MOVE-JP UP, DAMMIT!

To further what Toshiko said. This can also Only be done with Ramza or rather the first
three job slots. These will store the formation data. Others will not.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
If you do not learn certain abilities, you lose the ability to learn them. other abilities are added. this may have been a bug on one of my play throughs, but I remember distinctly losing the chance to learn an ability when the chapter changed because i didn't learn it before it ended, and ramza's change added new abilities.

No. That's not how it works. As Toshiko said, the different jobs are accomplished by using different slots. I can pull up a screenshot right now of FFTPatcher showing that every one of Ramza's skillsets are not retroactive. In fact..

Chapter 1


Chapter 2-3


Chapter 4


EDIT: I did not, however, know that only those would store the formation data, Elric. You learn something new every day.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
You say you don't think we should  have access to certain things at the end of chapter 1. you then say if you really want to you can grind to get it, but there will  be major consequences.

This doesn't make any sense. It's clear you don't want us to have it. so i'll say it again: why is it there? This question has not been answered.

Speaking as a modder myself, I have things currently in my Breath of Fire 3 beta release that the player simply does not have access to unless they either hack it in or they progress farther than the mod itself is complete. It makes complete sense, but from a developmental perspective rather than a user perspective.

It's simply more efficient (generally speaking) to have a to-do list of what to code in and in what order instead of doing it all in chronological order in regards to the game itself. See the bottom of this post (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=10179.msg194282#msg194282) for what I'm talking about.

This is also one reason why you generally don't see things released piecemeal like Jot5 is without a legitimate reason.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
The answer could be simply: we don't have the capability to add the class in chapter 3, but exclude it in chapter 1. This nonsense about 'oh, you can get it if you really want to grind it out.' and then saying 'it's chapter 1, why do you expect to have it?' needs to stop.

It's not nonsense. See previous paragraph.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
I bring up Vanilla because that is the game this is  based off of. Anything In Vanilla, you can do. lacking the skill to do that is different than saying it's outright not possible.

I've always wondered why I hear this from people when talking about a mod, simply because the point is self-defeating. Why are you going to play a mod if you want it to play just like Vanilla? Isn't the point of a mod to keep the core (which is not what this is arguing) but freshen the experience (either by difficulty, new maps, new abilities, etc)? I'm asking this as a legitimate question; I just don't understand it. If you wanna play Vanilla, then go play Vanilla.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
For base class at least, you could have replaced the main 5 from chapter 1 to 2 to 'force' us into chemist faster so we dont' waste precious levels on learning abilities on base class.

This is one of the few points I agree with here, and I brought it up with Raven months ago. I can't quite remember what the response was, though.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
Best response to  being called lazy ever. in most cultures laughing is a sign of embarrassment. Am i reading too much into it?

Uhh, no. Laughing is a motor response that is capable of conveying a wide range of emotions. Happiness, sadness, embarrassment, but I think a far more likely response from Raven would be this: "is this kid serious? LOL."

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
A lot of indie developers tend to ignore the math of balance. by nature, most people are not theory crafters, and not many people possess the knowledge to properly apply mathmatical models to balance or game design.

The only person I know who is on Raven's level of unhuman-like FFT mechanic (math very much included) knowledge is probably philsov, so I'm going to agree with FDC here.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 10:47:50 am
Rather than being able to make a cohesive team I've been forced, by you the developer, to make each member of my party an self-sufficient unit for the first half of the chapter. you can't possibly in good conscience say i'm free to build my team how i wish, when you force me to spend 2 or 3 levels on chemist.

My experience with Chapter 1 of Jot5 begs to differ. "Forced" is a very strong word, and believe me when I tell you that I can produce a video that disproves this if asked.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 12, 2014, 12:50:58 pm
Christ, where to begin?

"Am  I reading too much into it?" Yes. Very much so. All I've done is tedious stuff like text edits (for a totally different project), and I can tell you that being "lazy" doesn't at all work as part of a development team for a project of this magnitude/ scope, as Choto has said.

My understanding is, you all work as a team. Therefore things like the scenes, text scripts, etc. are all separate from the battle design and character progression.

Again, my main beef so far in chapter 1 is that character progression is not balanced.

random encounters and character progression are completely independent of the story/scripting.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 12, 2014, 12:50:58 pm
"This doesn't make any sense. It's clear you don't want us to have it. so i'll say it again: why is it there? This question has not been answered."

Umm, it's there because this is an SRPG that contains a job roster... And it makes far more sense to get jobs/abilities/ battle system  done as early as possible whilst you're doing the first few jobs you expect the player to have access to. That's common sense, right? I'm not being completely dense with these statements, am I?

That doesn't mean the entire roster must be available. it's clearly stated that you don't expect us to have certain things at the end of chapter 1. Given you said many things in chapter 1 are remporary, why not go for a more rounded experience and provide a limited roster as well? you didn't think of it? you don't want to?

which brings back, full circle again, why is it in the patch? you can have it there. the data can be present. but the player not having access =/= don't work on it.

I work in development i know how all of this works. just because you're working on it, doesn't mean you give the customer access to it right away. if a feature is impcomplete, you don't release that feature.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 12, 2014, 12:50:58 pm
You're also not 'forced' to learn any abilities if you don't want to. You need to go around the jobs in the tree in order to progress further and unlock the more advanced jobs, and that's just how it is TEMPORARILY, as Raven has already stated. You could always invest in throaway generics as they are only a fraction of the price they were in vanilla, as well as spillover JP to keep your main party levels lower. OR, as you're on an emulator, you could cheat your jobs to be unlocked and with max JP.

Wait. so it's ok to temporarily  inbalance the game down, but not up?

As I stated earlier, investing poorly has some pretty dire consequences. I could invest in throwaway stuff. but why am I forced to? I MUST invest in chemist. a minimum of 300-400 jp. i don't have to buy the abilities. but I MUST invest the jp to get it to a higher job level. that, or I leave that person as their base class for the entirety of the game.

and AGAIN, this is sizeable chunk of your available JP up to level 10. You must gain access to more abilities, especially magic, to get past later story encounters. so you must at some point move past chemist. Given almost no-one will leave any character as their base class for the entire game, this means every character MUST level chemist. there is no way around this other than further hacking.

So Which is it? chapter 1 is complete and no changes will be made? everything in chapter 1 is temporary? because i'm getting two different answers here.

you're capable of making changes. Changes for the better to improve the overall experience. I'm not saying make it easy mode. i'm not saying make Samurai/dragoon/ninja available in chapter 1. I'm saying current JP gains are insufficient for the early part of the game. Furthermore, it can cause problems in later stages of the game as well. JP gains are augmented with crystals/quests or w/e.

but this doesn't change the fundamental problem of early game: up to level 10, a sizable chunk of your jp must be invested into chemist. not for the abilities per se, but to get it to a certain job level.

Raven has stated this is working as intended. My argument is that the current rate of JP gain is balanced for later chapters, but not early chapters. the tactical options you  have are limited until about level 15 when you can actually start getting enough jp on other jobs to use abilities after learning 'essential skills.' Everyone else is FORCED to be base/chemist. so up to level 10, your progress is already decided for you. level your base class to level 3-4. level chemist to 3-4.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 12, 2014, 12:50:58 pm
These options are all available to anybody playing the patch, man. And Chemists are useful, dunno why you're particularly against using 'em. Even if you don't have all 5 in their base jobs, they can still get spillover (however meager) from fights and MOVE-JP UP, DAMMIT!

I'm not against chemist. I'm against EVERYONE being a chemist. i don't need all 5 people in my party as a chemist. two or three maximum, and most of those are not going to keep using item as a skill or subskill.

and I already said my piece about move-jp up. i'd rather not have to use this and forgo things like jump +2 or move+2 etc in the later parts of the game just because JP gains are imbalanced. not to mention move-find item is equally important, allowing you to gain additional equipment.

move-jp up should be there to augment jp gains. not be required to make the game feel balanced.

1) I shouldn't have to hack the patch further just to make the experience feel more balanced in progression. The only thing that statement tells me is that 'yeah...we didn't really know how to balance it. so instead of doing it right, we know y'all can just hack it to make it easy. so just hack it to make it easy.' really? that's what you're going with? that logic right there is what i'm calling lazy. because it is.


2) the consensus seems to  be different among developers. chapter 1 is in a temporary state,  but it's also not changing because jp gains are balanced for chapters 3 and 4.

2a) why can't we  have balanced jp gains in all chapters?
2b) why do i have to waste so much of my JP at level 10 on a class/skills I may not be using at all?

QuoteIf you do not learn certain abilities, you lose the ability to learn them. other abilities are added. this may have been a bug on one of my play throughs, but I remember distinctly losing the chance to learn an ability when the chapter changed because i didn't learn it before it ended, and ramza's change added new abilities.
You lose skills if you dont' learn them. I never said you lose them after you learn them. if you dont' learn some ofhis chapter 1 skills, you lose the ability to learn them in chapter 2.

That's definitely not true in vanilla.  Your game is bugged or you misremembered.

1) As I've already said, there's no technical challenge in locking ninja (just have it require level 8 in itself), but Raven's decision is not poor game design.  He simply threw in some disincentives against what is normally considered beneficial (such as leveling up, unlocking "advanced" jobs, or buying better gear, etc.)  You may not like it that way, but it is just as valid as a more minimal approach; in fact, I think it is more interesting when everything incurs diminishing returns because it feels more realistic.

QuoteI don't  have the option of taking Dante or Ramza directly into the knight class. I must take them through chemist. even though I could have snake, cloud, and link with enough support abilities this isn't needed. Everyone must learn essential skills. I think that's how you put it.

Rather than being able to make a cohesive team I've been forced, by you the developer, to make each member of my party an self-sufficient unit for the first half of the chapter. you can't possibly in good conscience say i'm free to build my team how i wish, when you force me to spend 2 or 3 levels on chemist.

How is this any different than vanilla?
"My strategy requires haste.  Why does Square force me to level 2 levels of chemist and 3 levels of black mage to get time mage when I clearly need haste to beat Dorter I?  Rather than being able to have a full support Pr / TM, I've been forced, by the developer, to make each member of my party deal damage for the first half of the chapter.  Clearly, FFT doesn't offer me enough freedom to build my team how I wish."
Plus, your objection isn't even valid.  Once you beat the beastmaster at Barius Hill, you have access to a random battle zone (with very easy enemies).  It's not hard to level up there.  Plus, because the enemies are very easy there, you can easily gain JP without EXP gain (by Move-JP Up).

Quote from: newbActually. No i'm not. I'm free to play it how I deem fit only if i'm skilled and capable of dealing with the consequences. which is a big caveat.

Quote from: RavenofRazgriz
lol.

Best response to  being called lazy ever. in most cultures laughing is a sign of embarrassment. Am i reading too much into it?

That's essentially your logic at work.  Please don't throw stones from glass houses.

Quote
Excluding ramza and cloud...

I was referring to vanilla.  ONLY Ramza has skills that unlock by chapter (maybe the phrase "locked skills" was imprecise).  The reason is obvious: only Ramza (and arguably, Alma after being possessed if you count ultima an unlockable skill) has that level of character development in FFT.

Quote
Again, character growth. character growth doesn't have to happen over years of time.

Take this: Dante shows disdain for Snakes' way of fighting. for being sneaky etc. Dante is a very in-your-face kind of character.

At the end of chatper 1, Dante maybe gets injuried or something and snake has to help him escape without drawing attention. Dante then realizes there is merit in the way snake does this. he then teaches himself to take a 'sneaky/tricky' way to combat, but in his own style. unlocking his trickster line of skills.

OR:

once chapter two begins, you could just have each character start with the base skills and job levels you expected them to have at the end of chapter 1.

Your second proposal would not work very well because everyone's playstyle is different.  I think it would make more sense to determine skillsets based off of the character (so Link would have levels in Archer and Knight, Alma would have levels in white mage, etc.)
As for your first, it's an intriguing idea, but Dante already has a full skillset of 16 attacks.  I don't think we can fit it in.  In general, the idea of having abilities unlocked by events is interesting, but it shouldn't be overdone or the game will feel too much like FFTA2.  Honestly, I find it ironic that you support the freedom "to build my team how i wish" and simultaneously want to restrict abilities through ideas like this.

Quote
Physical/mental changes? you mean character growth? >.>

I am known to be repetitive, but what I had in mind were things like...
1) A character gets his arm lopped off in the transition from Chapter I to II.  Clearly, he can no longer use 2H weapons now.
2) A mage was captured in Chapter I and was tortured while in prison and is released in the beginning of Chatper II.  Clearly, he is no longer able to cast advanced spells because he can no longer maintain that level of focus.
3) A man is injected with superserum and now has superpowers.  Clearly, his main class now has more options and he probably has fly as an innate.

In other words, given the above changes, it is possible to justify unlocking or locking certain skills or abilities.  What you call this process is irrelevant, but such "character growth" needs to pass a certain limit before we can express those changes in chapter or event-unlocked skills or abilities.  This is why I don't think it should be a default feature in FFT or Jot5 (meaning it will affect most jobs and classes); most characters don't undergo such drastic changes.

Quote
So everything Cloud and Ramza, Agrias, etc. learned in Vanilla was temporary?

Again, you missed my point.  "Temporary effects" would be something like using accumulate in FFT or swords dance in Pokemon.  Those effects do not carry over when the battle ends.  Similarly, if one "chapter" of your game is essentially a continuous state of battles or other situations where adrenaline would flow (some games are like this) and the next chapter happens after a period of calm, then many in-battle bonuses should not carryover.  Obviously, FFT and Jot5 are not this type of game.

Quote
This is a turn  based strategy game. Not dark souls. Stop trying to make it dark souls. It's not dark souls.

My point exactly.  Because FFT is a turn-based RPG where mix-and-match is encouraged and units are supposed to get progressively better, we should not import mechanics from real time games (like event-dependent skill unlocks or resetting skills / gear in between chapters) where the above conditions do not hold.  In other words, although FFT is a mix-and-match, mechanics are NOT a mix-and-match between different games and different genres.

Quote
This is my point. the team could have easily picked this route. you didn't. That's perfectly fine. but saying you can't is different then saying you won't.

It is a new game. no-one is going to question resetting to 0 in a new game. it's expected.

Finding 3 excuses can be easy, depending on how the story is written. A lot of different things are happening In Ivalice. we're seeing bleed in from FFT, FF7, and from across dimensions having Dante, Snake, and link appear in Ivalice. The balance of the world is clearly being upset. it isn't that unreasonable to see drastic changes happening to the world between chapters. maybe it starts to merge with other worlds. at this point the same reasoning can be used when you started the game. the characters are now in a 'different' world. it's no longer Ivalice. but Ivalice+Hyrule or w/e.

This is clearly where we differ.  You believe that the desired mechanics should drive the story.  Hence, to you, the game starts everyone at level 1 because this is a standard game mechanic.  I believe the story is the supreme feature of a game.  Due to the limitations of the RPG genre, time, game balance, and our understanding of the code, we must allow certain "small" deviations between mechanics and story (such as Dante being able to learn a stealth generic class like thief despite it being against his nature) or Cloud being able to use ribbons in his generic class (while as a knight, he cannot), but any "large" or "global" disruption needs to have a storyline justification.  Hence, to me, the game starts everyone at level 1 because Ramza hasn't fought in two years and everyone else was warped into the world by a process that took their weapons and sense of normality, but that reason isn't something you can repeat three times (because sentient beings adjust to their surroundings).  IN fact, I'd find it contrived even if three different reasons were given for the next three chapter breaks if the result of each of them is the same kind of equipment / skill reset (because the probability of getting the same unlucky result from three different processes is low).  I'm sure a good enough storywriter can certainly string together a plot so these things happen more "naturally", but a good writer would not insist on it happening either.  In other words, if this was a movie rather than a video game, the plot should be just as fluid and not have spots where it only makes "sense" in a video game.

Quote
As it stands, by the end of chapter 1 you will be about level 26. between 20 and 30 for sure. over 30 seems to high based on monster difficulty. below 20 seems to low based on other encounters.

I think you're overgeneralizing from your own personal experience.  For the record, my units were 5 levels lower than yours when I beat Chapter I, and I'm sure Raven can probably do it at Level 18.  It all depends on how much care you put into analyzing the enemy.

Quote
so I should spend my time moving and not performing actions for hours to learn abilities without raising my level? >.>;; really?

With the exception of snake's base class, everyone else will be limited to 3-4 squares per turn. meaning you can gain 3-4 more jp per action. that's assuming you ALWAYS move the maximum amount per character turn. which more often than not, is not a good idea. but you will also lose any tactical advantage to jump+1 or jump+2 which you can get early access to. In a game like this, mobility is important.

move JP isn't a bad ability. but after a while, taking it over something else is a bad tactical decision.

That's up to you, but I don't use Move-JP as a grinding tool (though it's tempting while Snake is invisible).  For me, it's mostly a supplement so I require only 70-80% the EXP to get the same amount of JP.  I find that mobility isn't so good early game when I don't have 1HKOs and the enemy easily outnumbers or outspeeds me.  The key to not dying in the early fights is CT conservation and knowing the CT of your units when enemies get turns.  Remember, first strike KOs don't have to come from superior speed or mobility, it can also come from AI stupidity: let them walk into your attack range (and keep your units out of theirs when it is their turn).

Quote
For me, this is one thing that made sweegy woods difficult. I lacked the utility gained from knight, priest, wizard.

Rather than being able to make a cohesive team I've been forced, by you the developer, to make each member of my party an self-sufficient unit for the first half of the chapter.

Maybe your playstyle is different than mine, but I've always favored a team of self-sufficient hybrids over specialized units.  I can say that Raven's mechanics fit my playstyle quite well.  I will also, say, however, that my Arena teams do not match this playstyle (my best teams are either pure offense or pure defense).  It pays to adapt to the game.

Quote
No. the game would not be more incomplete, but more complete. Raven has a vision in his  head. he expects you to have progressed your character a certain way. (this is obvious because of Chemist)

It's not uncommon at all for games to limit your progress based on chapter. In persona, you can only fuse certain persona at certain stages of the game, because more powerful ones aren't available. they only exist at a later stage of the game. this is the same principle.

but it is fundamentally the same system. it follows the same rules. the only thing that has changes is the scaling and the rate at which you can gain JP.

1) Small tweaks to the rules can have large effects.  Voldemort's 1.3 was appropriately termed FFT: Item or FFT: Hardmode because he made two vital changes (PD can be used by level 1 enemies and all enemy units scale to player level).  These two changes mean 1.3's strategy is different enough from vanilla that many veteran players could not adjust.  I do not doubt Jot5 does not have similarly groundbreaking mechanics.
2) If you admit Jot5, 1.3, and vanilla FFT are fundamentally the same system with the same rules, and you want Jot5 to be more "complete" (i.e. more perfectly fitting the system it is contained in), then aren't you contradicting yourself by proposing mechanics from Persona?
3) I can't speak for Raven, but as a modder, I would like to think "completion" means resembling a final product.  IN Jot5's case, the final product is a full FFT mod that spans four chapters.  If the final product is to contain ninja in Chapter IV, then the patch is more complete if the Chapter I release has ninja than if it does not.  In other words, the form of the game's release (piecemeal) should not affect the content (the available classes).
Remember, the modder's intent need not be formalized as law (or hard-coding).  A disincentive works just as well.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
Speaking as a modder myself, I have things currently in my Breath of Fire 3 beta release that the player simply does not have access to unless they either hack it in or they progress farther than the mod itself is complete. It makes complete sense, but from a developmental perspective rather than a user perspective.

It's simply more efficient (generally speaking) to have a to-do list of what to code in and in what order instead of doing it all in chronological order in regards to the game itself. See the bottom of this post (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=10179.msg194282#msg194282) for what I'm talking about.

This is also one reason why you generally don't see things released piecemeal like Jot5 is without a legitimate reason.

I would disagree. it makes sense from both perspectives. If I the player, don't know something exists, I can't try to achieve it. In jot5, trying to achieve things too soon make your level 'too high' and makes certain encounters more difficult. I'm not opposed to this outright. but the balancing could be done in a way that these fights are difficult, not near impossible.

but the thing is, jot5 is being released piecemeal. certain things are suffering as a consequence. but that's my whole point. they don't have to suffer.

chapter 1 is already in a temporary state. but it's being treated like its content will never change. ever. this is what i don't understand.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
It's not nonsense. See previous paragraph.

What you said is actually more in favor of restriction than against it.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
I've always wondered why I hear this from people when talking about a mod, simply because the point is self-defeating. Why are you going to play a mod if you want it to play just like Vanilla? Isn't the point of a mod to keep the core (which is not what this is arguing) but freshen the experience (either by difficulty, new maps, new abilities, etc)? I'm asking this as a legitimate question; I just don't understand it. If you wanna play Vanilla, then go play Vanilla.

This statement shows a lack of core understanding of what i've been trying to talk about.

I typed a lot. i understand you probably didn't read all of it. but I read everything you write. if you're going to argue with me, have the decency to at least attempt to understand my point of view.

1) advanced jobs are available in Vanilla in chapter 1. Advanced jobs are available in jot5 in chapter 1.

1a) it has been stated that we should not expect to have advanced jobs because it is only chapter 1. to help prevent this, scaling is in place to make certain fights more difficult, because they require better equipment, rather than better skills.

1b) Argument 1: If i'm not supposed to have access to it because it is only chapter 1, why is it included?

This argument in no way says the game should play just like vanilla. but it looks like vanilla, and I do have access to it. because it's right there. so why are you saying I shouldn't have access to it when you gave me access to it?

2) JP gains are too low and disrupt game balance early on.

2a) it has been stated that jp gains are more balanced for later chapters. IE: it is to throttle your progression so you don't get access to certain jobs too fast. jp gains are more closely tied to level progression due to the limited jp per action.

2b) Argument 2: Jp gains early on do not feel well tuned. when switching from a necessary progression path (IE: Chemist) you lose too much of your power for that level.

At any given level, you are expected to have a certain amount of JP split among X number of classes based on what the player chooses.

levels 10-15 feel especially weak because once you switch from chemist, you are 'losing' 300-400 jp to opportunity cost. effectively cutting your power level by 40% or more. when you first switch to knight/wizard/preist you are losing about half of your effective skills. increased JP gains can help relieve this painful part of the game. without having to senseless grind/reset to try to gain certain crystals/abilities from npcs for free.

Furthermore, this problem will persist moving forward. everytime you switch to a new job, you are losing power until you regain enough JP to get new abilities.

Furthermore, when switching to a new job the item subskill is one of the poorer choices early on, because this drains your gil if you use it as a JP gaining mechanism, and without investing further for throw-item you put your weakest character at the time in dangerous positions. draining your gil resources early means you will progress your equipment growth (which is equally important in jot5) at a slower rate.

many abilities cost 300-400 jp. this is 30-40 actions. and unless you are attacking something lower level than you, it's also 3-4 levels.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
The only person I know who is on Raven's level of unhuman-like FFT mechanic (math very much included) knowledge is probably philsov, so I'm going to agree with FDC here.

The battles are well done. Character progression is not. I'm not saying everyone in my party should be OP. but some things were overlooked/ignored/made bad on purpose.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
My experience with Chapter 1 of Jot5 begs to differ. "Forced" is a very strong word, and believe me when I tell you that I can produce a video that disproves this if asked.

I don't really need a video. but if you can prove to me you can gain access to knight/wizard/priest at level 10 without 'wasting' 300-400 jp on chemist. That would be swell.

I'm not opposed to having to level certain jobs. but at level 10, it's very painful to lose so much of your resources on something you dont' plan on using.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
I would disagree. it makes sense from both perspectives. If I the player, don't know something exists, I can't try to achieve it. In jot5, trying to achieve things too soon make your level 'too high' and makes certain encounters more difficult. I'm not opposed to this outright. but the balancing could be done in a way that these fights are difficult, not near impossible.

but the thing is, jot5 is being released piecemeal. certain things are suffering as a consequence. but that's my whole point. they don't have to suffer.

chapter 1 is already in a temporary state. but it's being treated like its content will never change. ever. this is what i don't understand.

So your argument is that "you guys should take it out of the game because I don't like it in there." No one is forcing you to try to achieve anything. Are you incapable of making a clear and concentrated choice? Because what you're saying is literally that. Your argument is not objective in the least, it is entirely a nitpick that you have with how things are being done.

You want things to be done one way, when they're being done in another. There is literally no difference in the effect on the player aside from what you're nitpicking about. If anything, I'd argue it another way and say that I prefer it this way because if I choose to, I can get a little taste of what I can expect to have in future chapters.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
What you said is actually more in favor of restriction than against it.

No, what you've gathered from what I said is quite different from what I've actually said.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
I typed a lot. i understand you probably didn't read all of it. but I read everything you write. if you're going to argue with me, have the decency to at least attempt to understand my point of view.

Clearly you do not, because I actually did read what you wrote. A misunderstanding does not automatically give one a pass to be a pompous ass.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
1) advanced jobs are available in Vanilla in chapter 1. Advanced jobs are available in jot5 in chapter 1.

1a) it has been stated that we should not expect to have advanced jobs because it is only chapter 1. to help prevent this, scaling is in place to make certain fights more difficult, because they require better equipment, rather than better skills.

No, it's been stated that you should not expect to have them without an excessive amount of grinding in Chapter 1.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
1b) Argument 1: If i'm not supposed to have access to it because it is only chapter 1, why is it included?

This argument in no way says the game should play just like vanilla. but it looks like vanilla, and I do have access to it. because it's right there. so why are you saying I shouldn't have access to it when you gave me access to it?

Because I would assume it's implied that you're simply playing the game instead of going out of your way to unlock everything. If you were, you wouldn't know anything about Animists and what have you.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
2) JP gains are too low and disrupt game balance early on.

What.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
2b) Argument 2: Jp gains early on do not feel well tuned. when switching from a necessary progression path (IE: Chemist) you lose too much of your power for that level.

On this, we can agree.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
Furthermore, when switching to a new job the item subskill is one of the poorer choices early on, because this drains your gil if you use it as a JP gaining mechanism, and without investing further for throw-item you put your weakest character at the time in dangerous positions. draining your gil resources early means you will progress your equipment growth (which is equally important in jot5) at a slower rate.

Have you tried using the Attack command.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 03:22:33 pm
I don't really need a video. but if you can prove to me you can gain access to knight/wizard/priest at level 10 without 'wasting' 300-400 jp on chemist. That would be swell.

That's not what I said. What I said was that I could easily produce a video that disproves your notion that everyone is forced to be a self-sufficient hybrid, where you can't have a cohesive team.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 12, 2014, 02:51:43 pm
1) As I've already said, there's no technical challenge in locking ninja (just have it require level 8 in itself), but Raven's decision is not poor game design.  He simply threw in some disincentives against what is normally considered beneficial (such as leveling up, unlocking "advanced" jobs, or buying better gear, etc.)  You may not like it that way, but it is just as valid as a more minimal approach; in fact, I think it is more interesting when everything incurs diminishing returns because it feels more realistic.

ehhh. while i don't really agree with this in principle. it's a videogame, and therefor by its very nature it's not realistic.

it's just a very very poor argument to put something in as accessible and then say you shouldn't access it. disincentives or not.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
How is this any different than vanilla?

opportunity cost.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
"My strategy requires haste.  Why does Square force me to level 2 levels of chemist and 3 levels of black mage to get time mage when I clearly need haste to beat Dorter I?  Rather than being able to have a full support Pr / TM, I've been forced, by the developer, to make each member of my party deal damage for the first half of the chapter.  Clearly, FFT doesn't offer me enough freedom to build my team how I wish."
Plus, your objection isn't even valid.  Once you beat the beastmaster at Barius Hill, you have access to a random battle zone (with very easy enemies).  It's not hard to level up there.  Plus, because the enemies are very easy there, you can easily gain JP without EXP gain (by Move-JP Up).

oh wow. this takes so many things completely out of context.

so, according to you. Chemist has a base move of 3. move jp gives you 1 jp per tile moved. so it will take 100 turns to gain 300 jp. to gain one ability. brilliant idea. Why would I spend so much time doing this instead of just hacking the game futher?

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
That's essentially your logic at work.  Please don't throw stones from glass houses.

*rolls eyes* i'm not going to go over this again. read one of my other posts. jp gains per level are limited.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
I was referring to vanilla.  ONLY Ramza has skills that unlock by chapter (maybe the phrase "locked skills" was imprecise).  The reason is obvious: only Ramza (and arguably, Alma after being possessed if you count ultima an unlockable skill) has that level of character development in FFT.
Your second proposal would not work very well because everyone's playstyle is different.  I think it would make more sense to determine skillsets based off of the character (so Link would have levels in Archer and Knight, Alma would have levels in white mage, etc.)
As for your first, it's an intriguing idea, but Dante already has a full skillset of 16 attacks.  I don't think we can fit it in.  In general, the idea of having abilities unlocked by events is interesting, but it shouldn't be overdone or the game will feel too much like FFTA2.  Honestly, I find it ironic that you support the freedom "to build my team how i wish" and simultaneously want to restrict abilities through ideas like this.

That's one of the fundamentals of game design. it's the 'illusion of choice.'

Raven clearly wants you to play the game a certain way. this is clear from his FAQ and the fact that chemist is required to unlock any other jobs.

Chemist is not useful for every character, depending on your strategy and playstyle. therefore it is a restriction of freedom.

allowing access to something and then saying 'why do you want it? it's only chapter 1' when it is clearly accessible and available is different than making something unlockable through progress and unavailable at an early stage of the game.

IE: disincentives are fundamentally different than locks. It would be like me heating my doorknob to burn you if you try to open my unlocked door, instead of just locking the damn door.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
I am known to be repetitive, but what I had in mind were things like...
1) A character gets his arm lopped off in the transition from Chapter I to II.  Clearly, he can no longer use 2H weapons now.
2) A mage was captured in Chapter I and was tortured while in prison and is released in the beginning of Chatper II.  Clearly, he is no longer able to cast advanced spells because he can no longer maintain that level of focus.
3) A man is injected with superserum and now has superpowers.  Clearly, his main class now has more options and he probably has fly as an innate.

In other words, given the above changes, it is possible to justify unlocking or locking certain skills or abilities.  What you call this process is irrelevant, but such "character growth" needs to pass a certain limit before we can express those changes in chapter or event-unlocked skills or abilities.  This is why I don't think it should be a default feature in FFT or Jot5 (meaning it will affect most jobs and classes); most characters don't undergo such drastic changes.

All of that is fine. and understandable. that will explain part of the decisions made.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
My point exactly.  Because FFT is a turn-based RPG where mix-and-match is encouraged and units are supposed to get progressively better, we should not import mechanics from real time games (like event-dependent skill unlocks or resetting skills / gear in between chapters) where the above conditions do not hold.  In other words, although FFT is a mix-and-match, mechanics are NOT a mix-and-match between different games and different genres.

Alright. but why are you discouraging mix and match? you can't even begin to mix until you are over level 10 and  have collected 'essential skills' in chemist and your base class.

furthemore, the rate at which you can learn new abilities to 'mix-and-match' is always abysmally low.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
This is clearly where we differ.  You believe that the desired mechanics should drive the story.  Hence, to you, the game starts everyone at level 1 because this is a standard game mechanic.  I believe the story is the supreme feature of a game.  Due to the limitations of the RPG genre, time, game balance, and our understanding of the code, we must allow certain "small" deviations between mechanics and story (such as Dante being able to learn a stealth generic class like thief despite it being against his nature) or Cloud being able to use ribbons in his generic class (while as a knight, he cannot), but any "large" or "global" disruption needs to have a storyline justification.  Hence, to me, the game starts everyone at level 1 because Ramza hasn't fought in two years and everyone else was warped into the world by a process that took their weapons and sense of normality, but that reason isn't something you can repeat three times (because sentient beings adjust to their surroundings).  IN fact, I'd find it contrived even if three different reasons were given for the next three chapter breaks if the result of each of them is the same kind of equipment / skill reset (because the probability of getting the same unlucky result from three different processes is low).  I'm sure a good enough storywriter can certainly string together a plot so these things happen more "naturally", but a good writer would not insist on it happening either.  In other words, if this was a movie rather than a video game, the plot should be just as fluid and not have spots where it only makes "sense" in a video game.

This is fine. but i'm not really wanting to argue about the story. it's merely a side-effect of me arguing with too many people about one topic and it being interpreted differently by different people because they have different responsibilities.

The whole point of that was you already tie equipment to story progression. it's clear you want abilities to be tied to progression as well. so why didn't you just hardcode it in?

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
I think you're overgeneralizing from your own personal experience.  For the record, my units were 5 levels lower than yours when I beat Chapter I, and I'm sure Raven can probably do it at Level 18.  It all depends on how much care you put into analyzing the enemy.

Raven is clearly nowhere near an average player in understanding. who is the target audience? absolute masters of the game? or are you looking for a more general audience? how accessible do you want your game to  be? etc. etc.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
That's up to you, but I don't use Move-JP as a grinding tool (though it's tempting while Snake is invisible).  For me, it's mostly a supplement so I require only 70-80% the EXP to get the same amount of JP.  I find that mobility isn't so good early game when I don't have 1HKOs and the enemy easily outnumbers or outspeeds me.  The key to not dying in the early fights is CT conservation and knowing the CT of your units when enemies get turns.  Remember, first strike KOs don't have to come from superior speed or mobility, it can also come from AI stupidity: let them walk into your attack range (and keep your units out of theirs when it is their turn).
Maybe your playstyle is different than mine, but I've always favored a team of self-sufficient hybrids over specialized units.  I can say that Raven's mechanics fit my playstyle quite well.  I will also, say, however, that my Arena teams do not match this playstyle (my best teams are either pure offense or pure defense).  It pays to adapt to the game.

I don't disagree with this. but it unfortunately forces you into this, or at the very least heavily incentivizes it. which is a big problem to me from a design perspective. but I also design/develop professionally.

you are the ones that have absolute control over the development of the game. i'm not saying you need to do what I say. I'm saying it would be prudent to relook at some of your design choices because they were not done well. it makes the game less accessible. is it your intent to force some people to cheat? why is this what you want? Yes, I can  hack the game. Yes, I can force the patch to be what I want it to be. but I also want to experience it as the designer intended. which means i'm not going to hack or cheat, etc.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
1) Small tweaks to the rules can have large effects.  Voldemort's 1.3 was appropriately termed FFT: Item or FFT: Hardmode because he made two vital changes (PD can be used by level 1 enemies and all enemy units scale to player level).  These two changes mean 1.3's strategy is different enough from vanilla that many veteran players could not adjust.  I do not doubt Jot5 does not have similarly groundbreaking mechanics.

both of which are enjoyable aspects to both patches.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
2) If you admit Jot5, 1.3, and vanilla FFT are fundamentally the same system with the same rules, and you want Jot5 to be more "complete" (i.e. more perfectly fitting the system it is contained in), then aren't you contradicting yourself by proposing mechanics from Persona?

This is a difference in logic path. the designer has stated he did not intend for us to have access to certain things at certain points. therefore the game becomes more complete by removing the things you did not want us to have access to yet.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 01:28:30 pm
3) I can't speak for Raven, but as a modder, I would like to think "completion" means resembling a final product.  IN Jot5's case, the final product is a full FFT mod that spans four chapters.  If the final product is to contain ninja in Chapter IV, then the patch is more complete if the Chapter I release has ninja than if it does not.  In other words, the form of the game's release (piecemeal) should not affect the content (the available classes).
Remember, the modder's intent need not be formalized as law (or hard-coding).  A disincentive works just as well.

This is probably a difference between someone who designs/develops for a living and someone who does it for fun. I'm not saying it's bad or wrong. it's just a difference in fundamentals.

you say it is more complete if it resembles the final product. but what makes the product 'final'?

the game provides you with an experience. each chapter, obviously, cannot provide you the full experience because the complete story is not told in any one chapter.

however, the game is not just story. it is also combat. while I do not get a complete experience out of the story, I can get a more complete experience out of the combat portions.

However, this wasn't done either. When you think about it, the only thing you will really gain with new chapters from a combat perspective is new equipment/items.

As a player, I can chose to grind out and take as much time as i want between story encounters. For this patch, there is a mechanic that suggests I dont' do this too excessively. which is fine. but this provides a limitation at the same time. essentially certain random encounters are soft caps to progress because you will lack the equipment to close the gap in relative strength.

but for the most part, combat will not change from chapter 1 to chapter 4. this includes the rate at which you gain new abilities. Which is one of the things i'm trying to get you to fix.

you already link combat progression to equipment. which is linked to story progression. but you don't do this for abilities and jobs. you could have done this.  but you didn't. Raven has stated that he thinks this should be the case. this is my other argument. if you really did not want us to have it, why is it there?

I'm going to try to type less. trying to carefully explain myself doesn't seem to be working.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
So your argument is that "you guys should take it out of the game because I don't like it in there." No one is forcing you to try to achieve anything. Are you incapable of making a clear and concentrated choice? Because what you're saying is literally that. Your argument is not objective in the least, it is entirely a nitpick that you have with how things are being done.

My argument is that you guys should take it out because you don't want it there. Raven has said, in several places, that he doesn't expect you to have access to advanced jobs in chapter 1. I haven't read every single one of his posts. but most of them state this.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
You want things to be done one way, when they're being done in another. There is literally no difference in the effect on the player aside from what you're nitpicking about. If anything, I'd argue it another way and say that I prefer it this way because if I choose to, I can get a little taste of what I can expect to have in future chapters.

I want things to be designed well and have balance. is that really an unreasonable request? the only thing imbalanced is the rate at which you gain JP.

the fact we  have access to jobs you don't want us to have access to is completely different argument.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
No, what you've gathered from what I said is quite different from what I've actually said.

This is true. what you said implies something different to me than what you thought it meant in your head.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
Clearly you do not, because I actually did read what you wrote. A misunderstanding does not automatically give one a pass to be a pompous ass.

so instead of actually answering my questions you decide to argue about things that weren't even the meat of my argument? ok..

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
No, it's been stated that you should not expect to have them without an excessive amount of grinding in Chapter 1.

It's also been stated if you get too high in levels, monster battles become increasingly difficult because you lack the gear to close the power gap.

you soft cap how much you can grind. but then say i'm free to grind? there is a flaw in that logic.

It's one thing to say you have to excessively grind. it's another to say you have to excessively grind AND effectively screw yourself in every other random encounter you have

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
Because I would assume it's implied that you're simply playing the game instead of going out of your way to unlock everything. If you were, you wouldn't know anything about Animists and what have you.

isn't unlocking everything also playing the game? playing the game isn't ONLY story progression.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
What.

On this, we can agree.

what what?

you agreed with my point directly after that, but disagree with the point that it's founded on?

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
Have you tried using the Attack command.

I don't really like putting my wizard and priest on the front line. considering they have lower HP, lower defense, and have little means of protecting themselves because they are fundamentally back-line classes. the attack command on them isn't really the first thing I think of.

Quote from: Advent on March 12, 2014, 03:39:47 pm
That's not what I said. What I said was that I could easily produce a video that disproves your notion that everyone is forced to be a self-sufficient hybrid, where you can't have a cohesive team.

They are the same thing. prior to level 10 you only really have access to your base class and chemist. by their very nature, having these two skill sets makes everyone a self-sufficient hybrid.

you can't begin to focus on specialized roles  until after you have leveled chemist and gain access to more specialized abilities from other jobs.

Cloud is the only character that doesn't have some means of keeping themselves alive. Flipper for Dante, Ramza and his many abilities, Link with his heal/saria song, snake with smoke break.

Dante has the option of going full offense, provided you stay away from his self-sustain abilities. but given that everyone starts with item subskill, everyone starts as a self-sustaining hybrid.

(I'm going to try and address some things without actually having read everything :P, I feel like this might be getting a little out of hand here guys)
Also please refrain from double posting! The edit button is always there to use!

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
My argument is that you guys should take it out because you don't want it there. Raven has said, in several places, that he doesn't expect you to have access to advanced jobs in chapter 1. I haven't read every single one of his posts. but most of them state this.

Key word being expect. If you would like Ninja's on your team in chapter 1, go for it! But this will make the game more difficult for you because of the grinding necessary to get what you want.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I want things to be designed well and have balance. is that really an unreasonable request? the only thing imbalanced is the rate at which you gain JP.

the fact we  have access to jobs you don't want us to have access to is completely different argument.

I think the game is designed well and is also well balanced. But that's my opinion, and you not thinking so is yours. We aren't going to change things because one person hasn't enjoyed the system that's been put in place. Obviously we can't create something that appeals to everyone, that is literally impossible. There is always going to be one person who just doesn't like it for whatever reason. As long as a lot of people like it, I don't see the problem.

We want you to have access to the jobs, we don't expect you to because it's so early in the game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's also been stated if you get too high in levels, monster battles become increasingly difficult because you lack the gear to close the power gap.

you soft cap how much you can grind. but then say i'm free to grind? there is a flaw in that logic.

It's one thing to say you have to excessively grind. it's another to say you have to excessively grind AND effectively screw yourself in every other random encounter you have

If you grind, expect the difficulty to increase because you are making your characters better equipped to deal with it. If you found you've been grinding and haven't prepared yourself to deal with the expected spike in difficulty, then stop grinding. It's become counter productive, and is a bit like hitting yourself in a battle to gain exp, and then just simply continuing to do so until you die.

Please Note: You don't have to grind to win the game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
isn't unlocking everything also playing the game? playing the game isn't ONLY story progression.

The game is incomplete, and as a result unlocking what's been implemented is difficult. Expect there to be more the game can offer in the next release, and expect it to be easier to get the more advanced jobs.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I don't really like putting my wizard and priest on the front line. considering they have lower HP, lower defense, and have little means of protecting themselves because they are fundamentally back-line classes. the attack command on them isn't really the first thing I think of.

Good thing the game has ways that allow you to get around this!
A) Use something that doesn't require you to go to panels next to enemies! The 5 have their own jobs that have skills that you can put in as as a secondary, and generics (and the 5) can use Item
B) Grab a crystal from an enemy not wearing that annoying accessory that stops them from being crystallized

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
prior to level 10 you only really have access to your base class and chemist. by their very nature, having these two skill sets makes everyone a self-sufficient hybrid.

Unless you make someone a chemist early on and give them access to other jobs before level 10. I know some people like the base jobs, but you really have to branch out and customize your units to beat the game. That very limited self-sufficient hybrid isn't going to get you very far :P

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
you can't begin to focus on specialized roles  until after you have leveled chemist and gain access to more specialized abilities from other jobs.

Indeed. Good observation.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
everyone starts as a self-sustaining hybrid.

As much as I love the base jobs, I have to suggest use of Black Magic and White Magic and the other jobs skillsets. It just makes the game easier because you have more options!

Quote from: formerdeathcorpsI think you're overgeneralizing from your own personal experience.  For the record, my units were 5 levels lower than yours when I beat Chapter I, and I'm sure Raven can probably do it at Level 18.  It all depends on how much care you put into analyzing the enemy.

I didn't read this massive textwall of a thread I came back to yet but I saw this.

I beat Chapter 1 of Jot5 (in the 1.0 release state, which was noticeably harder than the current version) with a party level average of 9-10 after Ganon Part 2, without performing any nonessential battles for Gil or JP or drawing out any essential battles for farming purposes, without ever entering the Job Change screen (meaning I only ever had Base+Chemist), without using Move-Find Item, without using the Soldier Office, buying every skill in the order of cheapest to most expensive at the first possible opportunity, and with only 1 reset on Ganon 2.

Yes, I made the damn game (at least in this regard), but uh, yeah.  Most video playthroughs (and non-video playthroughs that I've been made aware of) come out at about Level 15 at the end of Chapter 1.  20 seems to be the upper-end if you've been grinding.

Quote
Due to the limitations of the RPG genre, time, game balance, and our understanding of the code, we must allow certain "small" deviations between mechanics and story (such as Dante being able to learn a stealth generic class like thief despite it being against his nature) or Cloud being able to use ribbons in his generic class (while as a knight, he cannot), but any "large" or "global" disruption needs to have a storyline justification.

Don't forget about that fact that Link will totally have speech boxes when he casts spells that have them :U

This mod sucks, I quit

If anyone has any STORY or SCRIPT related things they would like to give feedback on, I would totally have more fun with this thread.

I don't even understand what's going on in this thread anymore (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53561892/z_bong.gif)(then again I don't even understand basic formulas, hence Raven...)
All I know is I somehow beat the entire Chapter 1 back in Beta without very much issue on any fight other than that fucking Chicken.

EDIT:
I did laugh at the "lazy" thing a bit though. I can assure you his "lol" was NOT out of embarrassment, but out of pure humor.
Even when I feel like I've done a lot it generally goes:

Me: Raven, I did 3 events this week, what did you do
Raven: Fucking EVERYTHING :U

(For anyone who didn't know, Raven's workload is seriously ridiculous)

Sorry, I know this last bit was pointless, but I personally found it very funny XD

Quote
we're seeing bleed in from FFT, FF7, and from across dimensions having Dante, Snake, and link appear in Ivalice. The balance of the world is clearly being upset. it isn't that unreasonable to see drastic changes happening to the world between chapters. maybe it starts to merge with other worlds. at this point the same reasoning can be used when you started the game. the characters are now in a 'different' world. it's no longer Ivalice. but Ivalice+Hyrule or w/e.

¯\(º_o)/¯

This massive Tl:Dr topic is becoming the spam of Jot5
Really

Stop this madness before it's too late!

I know, can't believe you guys were so shoddy with your details... Dunno why I'm even bothering to respond to these. :P

Actually, being serious for a second, there's one issue I've had regarding the script. In the scene at Lionel when the gang are given a clue to go to Goug, Link and Dante head outside. Link says "Stones" and Dante responds with "Son of a..."

In all the times I've played this mod, not once have I understood that section. I'm assuming it's something to do with Link saying that Dante has no balls?

Quote from: Dome on March 12, 2014, 07:09:17 pm
This massive Tl:Dr topic is becoming the spam of Jot5
Really

Stop this madness before it's too late!

/me silences Dome


Shhh! I'm waiting to see if something I can actually do something about or contribute to comes up.

EDIT:
See? I told you something would V V
EDIT:

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 12, 2014, 07:16:09 pm
I know, can't believe you guys were so shoddy with your details... Dunno why I'm even bothering to respond to these. :P

Actually, being serious for a second, there's one issue I've had regarding the script. In the scene at Lionel when the gang are given a clue to go to Goug, Link and Dante head outside. Link says "Stones" and Dante responds with "Son of a..."

In all the times I've played this mod, not once have I understood that section. I'm assuming it's something to do with Link saying that Dante has no balls?

Dante does his whole little complaint, and Link completely ignores it since they said they would discuss everything in the morning and Link
is still curious about the stone given to him by the Cloaked Stranger in Golgorand. He doesn't give a fuck about ANYTHING right now other
than finding out how this is connected to Zelda. Which is why we see Link charge into the gate at 900miles an hour out of excitement to be
on their way to Goug.

Dante being the self-centered mofo that he is is a bit irritated over the fact that after taking precious time out of his morning to help his little pointy
eared buddy find Ramza and Co., he doesn't get so much as a fist bump.

Or something like that. 

Quote from: Elric on March 12, 2014, 07:16:21 pm

EDIT:
See? I told you something would V V
EDIT:

Of course! You did ask,after all. :P

btw, fucking AWESOME summary there. Entertaining. :D

Bro, do you even quote? Everything you quoted me as saying in the first of those two posts was said by FDC, not me.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
My argument is that you guys should take it out because you don't want it there. Raven has said, in several places, that he doesn't expect you to have access to advanced jobs in chapter 1. I haven't read every single one of his posts. but most of them state this.

Right, but there is nothing objective (or reasonable, given limitations) about what you are asking. If you could lay out a cohesive (again, objective) argument about why -- mechanically -- leaving all those jobs in there but not expecting you to use them (yet) is bad, you'd be in a good spot. You have yet to do so.

And for the record, so there's no confusion on your part, Onisake, I am not part of the Jot5 team. I simply played a lot of it when Chapter 1 had just been released.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I want things to be designed well and have balance. is that really an unreasonable request? the only thing imbalanced is the rate at which you gain JP.

Designed "well" is subjective, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's also been stated if you get too high in levels, monster battles become increasingly difficult because you lack the gear to close the power gap.

There is a saying we have on the insanelyderpy boards regarding 1.3 that applies here: you can grind, but be aware that the enemies will grind with you.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
It's one thing to say you have to excessively grind. it's another to say you have to excessively grind AND effectively screw yourself in every other random encounter you have

You don't "have" to grind at all. The entirety of Chapter 1 is perfectly beatable with everyone in their base job with Item secondary.

That said, that may not be very fun for a lot of people. I for one grinded pretty heavily, mostly because I wanted to see some more of the new jobs. Sweegy gave me a hard time, and Ganon's minions claimed my lifeless corpse. However, I realize that that's a direct result of my actions, and not just the game design being bad. If I went through Jot5 again, I'm sure I could easily take Ganon down.

To say that you have to excessively grind -- or grind at all, for that matter -- is simply spurious.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
isn't unlocking everything also playing the game? playing the game isn't ONLY story progression.

'Kay. We can play this game.

Let's continue the slight trend and use Dark Souls as an example.

Most people would constitute "playing the game" as progressing, exploring, etc. It would be going throughout the game itself at a somewhat normal pace.

Unlocking everything, in this context, would be staying in the Upper Undead Burg and grinding on Undead Soldiers until you were SL 80 or higher.

See the difference?

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
you agreed with my point directly after that, but disagree with the point that it's founded on?

I agree with the fact that JP gain can be at times annoyingly low, but disagree with the premise that it's a balance issue.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
I don't really like putting my wizard and priest on the front line. considering they have lower HP, lower defense, and have little means of protecting themselves because they are fundamentally back-line classes. the attack command on them isn't really the first thing I think of.

Dude. The Attack command is the most powerful thing in the entire game.

Quote from: Onisake on March 12, 2014, 04:32:31 pm
They are the same thing. prior to level 10 you only really have access to your base class and chemist. by their very nature, having these two skill sets makes everyone a self-sufficient hybrid.

Because it's not like you have the ability to not play them as hybrids, and instead use them as a cohesive team, right?

Quote from: Elric on March 12, 2014, 06:59:48 pm
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53561892/z_bong.gif)

How do I not see you using this more often 0.o

only recently found it :)

Hey, Mods. Why don't you answer my questions:
1. What's LP stand for? Videos?
2. Did you work on AI Coding? I found that your AI Coding isn't so different from the Vanilla. Is it just me or most of the enemies usually charge me ALONE without forming a group and can easily be banged into slaughtering? Bosses are exception since they're freakingly broken.
3. Why don't you add accessories that prevent Poison, Charm and Confusion? Is it because we're still at Chapter 1(a Chapter with Bad Breath, Venom/Poison, Charm and Confusion)? Bad Status without a prevention accessories = fun?

I am not a mod... A mod is what I work on, I'm an admin.

1. Let's Play...
2. No
3. Yes

2. Only three people have read the AI code.  Me, Glain, and SA.  None of us are primary coders for Jot5.
3. Totally unnecessary.
Poison is cured by Heal (you have Ramza).
Charm can be dispelled by attacking your own units.  Just because the AI is too stupid to do this properly doesn't mean you have to be.
Confuse can be removed in the same way as charm, but it's actually good for you because you can use it to exploit the AI.  A confused unit will not be directly targeted by the AI unless the AI can 1HKO him or he walks into the AoE range of an AI attack.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 13, 2014, 07:18:22 am
3. Totally unnecessary.
Poison is cured by Heal (you have Ramza).
Charm can be dispelled by attacking your own units.  Just because the AI is too stupid to do this properly doesn't mean you have to be.
Confuse can be removed in the same way as charm, but it's actually good for you because you can use it to exploit the AI.  A confused unit will not be directly targeted by the AI unless the AI can 1HKO him or he walks into the AoE range of an AI attack.

But FDC you don't understand. I need the ability to outright prevent it! I need unisex Ribbons at the beginning of Chapter 1!

In all seriousness, I agree. Chapter 1 isn't hard as it is; you want it to be even easier with status immunity to everything?

Edit: I know Jot5's not a difficulty mod, but for Christ's sake, you don't want it to be as easy as Vanilla, right? >.>

Quote from: Advent on March 13, 2014, 08:38:15 am
But FDC you don't understand. I need the ability to outright prevent it! I need unisex Ribbons at the beginning of Chapter 1!

In all seriousness, I agree. Chapter 1 isn't hard as it is; you want it to be even easier with status immunity to everything?

Edit: I know Jot5's not a difficulty mod, but for Christ's sake, you don't want it to be as easy as Vanilla, right? >.>

I certainly don't, but given our vanilla mod of choice, we may well be somewhat biased.

Quote from: kyozo22 on March 13, 2014, 10:08:56 am
I certainly don't, but given our vanilla mod of choice, we may well be somewhat biased.

I just don't see how anyone could find the difficulty (or lack thereof) of Vanilla to be enjoyable.

I thought Mod(s) = Moderator(s)?

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 13, 2014, 07:18:22 am
2. Only three people have read the AI code.  Me, Glain, and SA.  None of us are primary coders for Jot5...

Too bad, no changes in AI Coding. I bet that was the very reason Raven gave monster broken skills... to add difficulty and balance things up.

Bad AI Code + Broken Skills = Fair.

Quote from: formerdeathcorps on March 13, 2014, 07:18:22 am
...3. Totally unnecessary.
Poison is cured by Heal (you have Ramza).
Charm can be dispelled by attacking your own units.  Just because the AI is too stupid to do this properly doesn't mean you have to be.
Confuse can be removed in the same way as charm, but it's actually good for you because you can use it to exploit the AI.  A confused unit will not be directly targeted by the AI unless the AI can 1HKO him or he walks into the AoE range of an AI attack.

Curing bad status = wasting a turn, thus giving the enemies an advantage to deplete/reduce your HP/MP.

I agree that we're still at Chapter 1(a Chapter with many enemies-inflicting bad status effect(s)). It's not that I need those accessories preventing status, I just feel annoyed by those toads/frogs... Bad Breath and Venom Strike are just too awesome to make my day!

Nevertheless, I beat the game with ease...

Quote
Curing bad status = wasting a turn, thus giving the enemies an advantage to deplete/reduce your HP/MP.

That would be a problem in an AI tournament or a PvP game where the level of intellect on both sides is equal.  However, in PvAI, your human brain is clearly superior to the AI.  You occasionally wasting a turn healing status is far outweighed by the AI wasting a turn almost 50% of the time.  There's no need to worry.

Quote from: Advent on March 13, 2014, 10:11:51 am
I just don't see how anyone could find the difficulty (or lack thereof) of Vanilla to be enjoyable.

I used to enjoy hack and slashing of vanilla when I was a kid. When I experienced them for the first time, the mustadio and velius fights were actually an adequate difficulty. Of course now they can be made trivial... Everybody has their tastes though, I doubt there's a one-difficulty-fits-all with FFT mods.

Quote from: Choto on March 13, 2014, 03:57:53 pm
I used to enjoy hack and slashing of vanilla when I was a kid. When I experienced them for the first time, the mustadio and velius fights were actually an adequate difficulty. Of course now they can be made trivial... Everybody has their tastes though, I doubt there's a one-difficulty-fits-all with FFT mods.

I agree that the thresholds are different, but how anyone can -- now, when they're not sub-13 years old -- play Vanilla and say it is challenging enough to keep stuff interesting is beyond me.

Quote from: flowoftime on March 13, 2014, 11:35:48 am
I thought Mod(s) = Moderator(s)?

It can be, but I guess it's normally used as: mod = modification.

Quote from: Advent on March 13, 2014, 10:11:51 am
I just don't see how anyone could find the difficulty (or lack thereof) of Vanilla to be enjoyable.

I do, because I value the story over its gameplay and prefer to spend more time storying than fighting with a computer. Anything that speeds up the chess game is A-OK with me, be it well-planned strategic manipulation or Orlandu. I have never played any sort of an RPG to feel challenged. Platformers I play for challenge. Fighting games I play for challenge (or for absurdity, or blowing off steam). RPGs I play because I'm feeling lazy and want a story, but still have enough energy to press a couple buttons now and then.

I suppose my opinion would be different if I approached them the same way I do puzzle games (where I -also- like to be challenged), but RPG battles to me are like commercials during a TV show; they can be entertaining once in a while, but I've been conditioned to see them as a nuisance. The shorter the better.

Quote from: Toshiko on March 13, 2014, 07:41:20 pm
I suppose my opinion would be different if I approached them the same way I do puzzle games (where I -also- like to be challenged), but RPG battles to me are like commercials during a TV show; they can be entertaining once in a while, but I've been conditioned to see them as a nuisance. The shorter the better.

I suppose I can see that. I enjoy my RPG battles most of the time, but to each his own.

Wow I thought I was dumb when I had to save state cheat on some of the battles on this.  I had to stop playing in the fight vs Ganondorf's second form because I hard saved right before and save stated during battle.  It's a great hack overall, though.  I couldn't find out if the story battles, besides the ones with monsters, level up with you (Like FFT: 1.3).  I almost HAD to state hack Assassinate with Snake, otherwise I would get one shotted by dragons (Sweegy Woods)

So basically, to me, it seems the difficulty is great in the beginning but then vamps up to the point where state hacking is necessary.  Given, it was my first go through and I didn't know the jobs or how the characters grow in stats. Knowing what I know now it can be a *little* easier, maybe.

Quote from: Advent on March 13, 2014, 04:31:29 pm
I agree that the thresholds are different, but how anyone can -- now, when they're not sub-13 years old -- play Vanilla and say it is challenging enough to keep stuff interesting is beyond me.

Dorter Trade City comes up on you pretty quick in your first Vanilla playthrough. How many people got through that battle on their first try without losing a unit?

Quote from: Jack of All Trades on March 14, 2014, 11:28:49 am
Dorter Trade City comes up on you pretty quick in your first Vanilla playthrough. How many people got through that battle on their first try without losing a unit?

First playthrough is understandable; I'm speaking in the context of someone who played this as a child, and is now replaying it.

Quote from: Jack of All Trades on March 14, 2014, 11:28:49 am
Dorter Trade City comes up on you pretty quick in your first Vanilla playthrough. How many people got through that battle on their first try without losing a unit?

I'm pretty sure I did, but then again, I didn't know how to change jobs or learn abilities during my first play-through until Chapter II.

I know this is a necro post, but i really wonder, i read the first page and the last of this post...

People really are never happy hu?

I mean...

You got a patch from a game you like.

You got it for free.

you got a completely new story, new sprites, new skills..

you basically got a new game to play and none of the people who are working of it get paid.

i think a normal person wouldn't even think about asking for a relase date, have you tried to mod something before even thinking to ask a thing like that?

how much time it takes to do things? even changing sprites create new sprites looks, colors that fit the game etc..

there is so much work done in this patch that only god knows.

Another thing is... you like the game?

Cool! but no one force you to stay in the forum be active everyday, create a huge comunity or things like that.

these guys asked NOTHING i never read a single post from them asking for something.

i am an artist, if i decide to do a paint or to draw something for you, and it's for free, i wuold even get pissed if you ask me to hurry up.

And since i think the people who are working on this patch are artist as well, i think you should just say THANKS and wait.

If there are any problem about balance or anithing else, after the relase and after you played it, there is plenty of post and people to talk with, and there are post on the forum with thousend of views as proof.

you are asking to the guys who are already doing somehting for YOU/US  for free, to give you even more, and always for free!

and as someone said, the guide spoil the game and the fun, since the gap between one relase and the other is so wyde, it just mean you have to play it more time, and find things yourself, which i find lot more interesting then just following up a guide.

About the fact that the difficulty is hard, YES IT IS and as far as i asked that is how is meant to be, you got a quick save option, and im 100% they knew people would use it, that is why is so hard.

And if you want to play it on your psp or playstation, then sorry for you , but it will be very hard and sometimes frustrating, but again, that's how is supposed to be... otherwise they would have put orlandu in the party..

And again.. Jp do suks i agree, but it does make 100% sense that they did it in the way you don't unlock all classes in the first chapter, i hated this at the start, but then i thought about it, and i got to agree with this line of thinking.

well that is what i wanted to say. Sorry for the long post XD

(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110118053947/inheritance/images/6/62/Red_Heart.gif)

Also, JP formula has been changed, you'll gain more based on your level now.

Difficulty has been slightly adjusted in some of the randoms and a few other battles, but most of the difficulty decrease will be due to the newly added mechanics.
(which isnt really a decrease, but you do get more if you work for more. Plus more marks means more exp and monies)

Xif is going to work working on an EasyType sometimes after Ch2 (IIRC)

The re-release will work on modded consoles.

well my post was more like a "i hope spoiled child understand"  that a critic to the game.
And man, you can't understand how much get pissed off when i read those people writing.

I mean.. even just 10 minutes to read and answer, are 10 minutes that are given less to the work on the patch if they use their brain, they can understand that much.
I'm deadly curious about this re relase and chapter 2 , probably more then anyone else in this community, but i do know that nowhere in this planet any one has a single right to demand for something here.

""""I'm talking to you !!! whoever you are that like to complain.  If you want to disappear from the community cause too much time passed DO SO!! people are not gonna cry over you're departure, and there will be TONS of people who will download this re relase, and that are waiting probably from more time then you. So don't be a child, just sit patiently in your corner and WAIT , that's my best advice.""""

plus there are a lot of people who doesn't bother to write, so they just log check if the game came out, then leave. I don't see why you can't do the same.

And after my little outburst, i really do hope the re relase and chapter 2 aren't too far XD

I mean, I can understand the frustration, even at something that's being provided for free, but as far as I'm aware, no one has ever tried to give even a real guess at the release date here. It's always been "it'll be ready when it's ready".

I know this kind of perspective wasn't really available back in 2014, but here's what I'd say: what kind of sequel/successor do you want to play? Mighty No. 9, or AM2R?

Quote from: nyzer on November 20, 2016, 10:50:59 pm
I mean, I can understand the frustration, even at something that's being provided for free, but as far as I'm aware, no one has ever tried to give even a real guess at the release date here. It's always been "it'll be ready when it's ready".

I know this kind of perspective wasn't really available back in 2014, but here's what I'd say: what kind of sequel/successor do you want to play? Mighty No. 9, or AM2R?

AM2R. I have and its awesome.

Same. I coulda used Other M as an example, too, but I wanted something a little more recent.

AM2R took ten years to make, still has bugs today (twice in a row when I was battling the Larval Metroids, they slid out of the screen while frozen, forcing a reset) and... is generally hailed as a better Metroid game than anything made in the last decade.

Other M and Mighty No. 9 were massive failures in comparison, despite being officially funded games made by professionals.

I'd rather play a game that took seven more years to make and isn't absolute ass, personally. 

Quote from: nyzer on November 21, 2016, 09:24:05 am
Same. I coulda used Other M as an example, too, but I wanted something a little more recent.

AM2R took ten years to make, still has bugs today (twice when I was battling the Larval Metroids, they slid out of the screen while frozen, forcing a reset) and is generally hailed as a better Metroid game than anything made in a decade.

Other M and Mighty No. 9 were massive failures in comparison, despite being officially funded games made by professionals.

I'd rather play a game that took seven more years to make and isn't absolute ass, personally.

All these things.

I'd rather play a game that took seven more years to make and isn't absolute ass, personally. 

totally agree man.

Spoiled whiny children, I will miss you. You provide me with countless hours of entertainment with your nonsense and contradictions. Hopefully when the re-release comes out, there will be more of them around.

Man these guys were relentless too, even when you explain the logic behind the mechanics or tell them it's going to be changed.

Lol the best one was..
"I demand you guys make a guide!"
Everyone else: "Plenty of LPs out there and a wiki"
"I don't want that shit I like to do my own thing"