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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Mudvayne

I don't particularly care for katanas losing their 2H ability, though I can understand the reasoning behind it.

I like the heaven's cloud going to PA based formula. Not sure about the AoE 3 and PA*6 though. Maybe AoE 2 and just have it be PA*7. Either way is fine though, I like having more PA based options in draw out.

silentkaster

Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Water, Immune: Faith, Innocent, Fury, Sadness
Gold Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Wind, Immune: Don't Move

These are actually the changes I propose. Since you didn't list Kaiser Plate, I'm thinking you wanted that changed to the Ensanguined Shield. (I say this because you listed Zephyr Shield with no changes but did not list Kaiser Plate at all.)

Above would be my proposal. There are currently four items that absorb Earth and four items that absorb Lightning by my count (assuming I didn't miss anything which is always possible). (Note this is also true of Dark, but one of them is Cursed Ring which opens you up to Fire weakness.) This would then give almost all elements three in addition to ways to negate the damage for some elements.

If you do want to keep Kaiser Plate, then perhaps just changing Defense Ring back to Water and Magic Ring back to Wind would work?

You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Barren

For spears we could use Blood Spear. Works similar to blood sword with a WP of 8 or 9 if spears are going to be two hands. It would at least do slightly less damage than the Blood Sword because of the spear getting range. CT5Holy might have suggested a while back.

Javelin seems fine from what you suggested Gaignun.

I still think that the holy lance should proc holy or dia instead of holy breath because for me anyways I've never seen it go off more than twice after the attack. Cause the master guide said breath proc 1-2 times.

The other spears, partisan, mythril and spear should definitely be changed too. Maybe make them elemental spears fire/ice/lightning? Of course it can be without the elemental boosting if anyone is concerned that two handed spear with elemental boosting is too powerful because you can stack PA that way.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

As for Heaven's Cloud, I went for PA*6 and 3 AoE because I thought it'd be equal parts stupid and fun.  What I really wanted was another PA-based Draw Out to accompany Samurai's +1 PA boost.  The precise formula is up for discussion.  I'll include PA*7 and 2 AoE for now.

Sorry.  I forgot about Kaiser Plate.  It's now listed.

I don't believe there has been any particular preference toward which shield absorbs which element as of yet, so I'll change Mythril and Gold shields elements to water and wind, respectively.

Blood and Dia spears sound fine.  I think there have been several spear suggestions many months ago, but I couldn't find any solid numbers.

fpkfor

Completely different thing but,one thing to consider is that Angel Song and Life Song have no use since they heal so little,maybe up it a bit?

Gaignun

I am personally fine with boosting Angel and Life Song a bit.  There's been a power creep since the days of Y U SO DERP (the DERP days if you will).  Some forms of healing, particularly Chakra, Life Song, and Item, have been lagging behind. With offensive potential such as it is now, teams have the ability to punch through a single target's HP even if Life Song healed over 100 HP per cast.  Mind you, I don't mean to suggest that Life Song should actually heal that much, but at least we could boost the formula from MA+20 to MA+30 or so.

I also threw a graph together to discuss monk's PA nerf.  The attachment is (pre-Fury) Spin Fist damage as a function of PA.  If we reduce monk's base PA to 12 and ignore the Choice Band proposal, then the highest possible PA a monk can achieve drops from 19 to 18. To maintain monks' offensive potential, we can increase Spin Fist's formula from (PA/2)*PA to (1) [(PA+2)/2]*PA or (2) PA*10.  I labeled the former "nonlinear" and the latter "linear." Both have identical damage at 18 PA. The crucial difference is that the linear formula is much more effective at lower PA values.  As I argued before the last patch, this linear formula makes Punch Art more usable for jobs other than monk.

Anyway, all I want to demonstrate with this graph is that there are ways of maintaining monks damage with Punch Art while nerfing their PA.

Kurosabes

Regarding new katanas:

I have calculated max potential damage.

Asura Knife
New: 273 damage (385 with proc).
Old: 420 damage

That is a considerable nerf here. It is mostly used for its OHKO, and I believe it should stay that way or somewhere near the top. Around 16 WP should do it.

Koutetsu Knife
New: 280 (350 with proc).
Old: 378

Koutetsu Knife isn't really known for its physical attacks. I am not sure what to do with it right now, will try to think of something.

Bizen Boat
New: 252 (72 MP damage proc)
Current: 306 (100% Silence)

This one is an improvement, I like it

Heaven's Cloud
New: 280 (395 with proc).
Current: 306 (50% slow)

Not sure if I'd consider it an improvement. I kinda like how it and its Draw Out equivalent can proc Slow. It isn't used much right now simply because it's more difficult to strengthen

Murasame
New: 288
Current: 408

To be fair, I have rarely seen anyone use Murasame for healing strikes. It would still heal a considerable amount, and be stronger than it used to with WP-based abilities.

I'm out of time. I'll go over the rest later
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Gaignun

Thank you for the numbers, WKW.

We can also return elemental strengthening to Asura as an alternative.  I removed it as a precaution, but never crunched the numbers myself, so I did not realize that the change was that big of a nerf.

Concerning Kotetsu, it's draw out is MA-based, so maybe we can use something more useful on female samurai.

Kurosabes

Continued from last post.

Kiyomori
New: 252 (50% Add: Poison - Blind)
Old: 340 (+2 MA)

This was never known for its physical attacks either, so why not. Besides, there would be Ice Bow and Lightning Bow as new MA alternatives.

Muramasa
New: 234 (306 with proc, 10% Death Sentence)
Old: 306 (+1 MA, 50% Spell Absorb)

I like the new Muramasa overall. The old one was pretty odd. Bizen Boat takes the MP-depleting role instead and does a better job at it.

Kiku-ichimonji
New: 280 (350 with proc)
Old: 340 (439 with proc)

This makes it the Earth equivalent of Koutetsu Knife. I can't really think of something for this one either. Perhaps not all katanas are fit to be forced 2H.

Masamune
New: 288
Old: 272

Much-needed improvement in the other stats. It loses shield, but it's fine if you wear some Sprint Shoes or Genji Armor, you essentially get +2 Speed.

Chirijiraden
New: 405 (Berserked)
Old: 374 (not Berserked), 561 (Berserked)

I'd change Speed+1 to Move+1 because Berserk units may want to reach a target faster. Possibly Always: Berserk as well. Needs something like 18 WP.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Kurosabes

Regarding Life Song:

I agree it's awful. Unlike Wiznaibus, they will not use it right away, and by the time they do, it most likely won't really make a difference. Maybe it should be randomized like most of the songs. Here are some ideas.

Heal_(1-50)%. On average over 2 "cycles", units will be healed 50% of their HP, along with a 30% Regen proc chance.

Heal_(1-40)%, 25% Add Regen. This increases the proc chance to 50% over 2 cycles. I don't think that would make it high enough to make the Regen ability less desirable, especially if the latter becomes instant.

Heal_(1-40)% HP, reduce CT to 5. This way, getting 2 cycles before your next turn won't be exclusive to the low-end Speed units.

I had balance in mind, but one of the above may be merged with another, if you feel it should be done this way. As for Angel Song, I don't find it too bad. It recovers enough MP for the low MP users such as Paladins. You can have another unit with Absorb MP to take advantage of the fact it costs MP to recover larger chunks as well.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Gaignun

November 09, 2015, 01:22:17 pm #2070 Last Edit: November 09, 2015, 01:31:16 pm by Gaignun
Based on WKW's calculations, I threw together a few proposals for some of the weaker katana.  Kikuichimonji also needs an improvement, but I haven't thought of anything yet.

All calculations use 14 PA and 8 MA and do not consider BrFa modifiers.

Asura Knife: 15 WP, 15 W-EV, Fire element, Strengthen: Fire, 50% Cast: Asura, Forced 2H
NEW: 484 (330+154)
OLD: 440
Description: The 1HKO katana.  Good synergy with the Asura Draw Out skill.

Kotetsu Knife: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element, Absorb: Dark, 50% Cast: Kotetsu, Forced 2H
NEW: 308 (252+56)
OLD: 396
Description: Targeted towards MA-based samurai on teams with dark absorption.  Not attractive for its physical damage.  Essentially an easily accessible poor-man's Dark absorption shield for Samurai and Netherseer.

Murasame: 17 WP, 15 W-EV, Restore HP, Immune: Berserk, Forced 2H
NEW: 306
OLD: 432
Description: Has the highest WP in the game (shared with Chaos Blade). Recommended for use with WP-based skills.

Muramasa: 16 WP, 25 W-EV, 50% Cast: Muramasa, Forced 2H
NEW: 344 (288+56), 12.5% Add: Death Sentence
OLD: 324 (+1 MA, 50% Spell Absorb)
Description: Its average damage is bolstered by above-average W-EV and a small chance to add Death Sentence.

Heaven's Cloud: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Wind element, Strengthen: Wind, Always: Float, 50% Cast: Heaven's Cloud, Forced 2H
OLD: 360, 50% Add: Slow
NEW: 308 (220+84)
Description: Has low physical damage, but grants permanent Float (+1 vertical jump, all terrain, and Earth immunity).  Also strengthens the Heaven's Cloud Draw Out skill.

Chirijiraden: 15 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 Move, Always: Berserk, +1 SP removed, Forced 2H
NEW: 405 (Berserked)
OLD: 396 (not Berserked), 594 (Berserked)
Description: Highest consistent damage among the new katana, and its +1 Move means fewer wasted turns approaching the enemy.

CT5Holy

I like the Punch Art formula change, as it would make the physical damaging parts of Punch Art more accessible.

Kikuichimonji (Katana): 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Earth element, 50% Cast: Kikuichimonji, Forced 2H, 3 Range, but can only hit the farthest tile (think Dictionaries and Harps)
The 3 range thing is probably more fitting for Heaven's Cloud. Which means... Kiku still needs a real design >_>

Heaven's Cloud (DO) at 3 AoE does indeed sound like good, stupid fun. :D I'd be willing to give it a shot. I think max damage would be 28*6 = 168 (Squire with PA boosting gear + 108 Gems/Prismatic Rod for Strengthen). Actually, if Netherseer becomes a thing, I would vote against 3 AoE, but if Netherseer can't make it for some reason, then 3 AoE HC sounds good.

Possible Spear designs! Copy-pasted from an earlier post of mine + adding a couple new ideas:
Spear with 50% Don't Move proc
Spear with 50% Power Ruin / Mind Ruin proc
Spear with 33% Undead proc
Spear with 100% Consecration proc
Blood Spear
Spear with 50% cast Life Drain proc (redundant with Blood Spear, but this encourages high Fa Lancers, possibly even 40/70!)
Spear with 50% cast Stop (someone else had this idea before)
Spear with 50% Blade Beam proc or 50% cast Balance proc
Spear with 100% Knockback (is this possible?) (ok maybe it shouldn't be 100% but it sounds funny!)
Spear with 50% cast Execute (possibly bonkers)
Spear with 75% cast Last Dance (overall result is 30% CT 00)
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Kurosabes

Since Chiri would be Always: Berserk, it may as well have 0 W-EV since Berserk removes your evasion anyway. Just a small thought I had.

Kikui could pull a Mystic Blade. Kinda a multi-purpose weapon for someone who'd want to use both PA and MA Draw Outs together (just an example). Perhaps it could get 25 W-EV like the Muramasa as well for an extra incentive over pure +2 PA or +2 MA weapons.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

dw6561

November 09, 2015, 07:39:19 pm #2073 Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:50:36 am by dw6561
What about a geomancy proc? It could be 100%, but the weapon itself would then have to be lower in WP so that it's not too overpowered. It would have the chance to proc status and get a little bit of unavoidable damage in there as well. We could use it for Kiku or a spear.

Also, does anyone else feel that Bolt 2 neets to go down in power a bit or something? It just seems to utterly destroy everything, but that could also be because I like high faith teams.
  • Modding version: PSX
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silentkaster

Kikui could be something like, Initial: Fury & Initial: Innocent or something. Make the wielder able to hit pretty hard while being more prone to physical attacks and less prone to magic? I looked over the proposals again quickly and didn't see a way to start with Fury (I could be missing something though) which I feel would be pretty good to have included. (Perhaps adding Initial: Sadness to the Faith Rod could happen too? I'm not strong on either opinion but could be something worth thinking about.)

WKW, are you able to run some tests on the Life Song ideas if you have some time? From what I remember playing in Vanilla and the other patches, the AI acts very finicky with Life Song. If Life Song can reverse all the damage done, the AI won't attack. I would guess that Life Song having a chance to heal for 50% would carry over and if there were a Mime, the AI might read that as a heal for 100% and won't attack unless it can one shot. I'm not positive on that, but I do know the AI gets a little bit weird when Life Song gets going.

As far as Bolt 2 goes, no I don't think it needs a nerf. It's reflectable, evadable, takes 5 CT to resolve, and costs more MP than everything else in Black Magic besides Flare. That's just my opinion though.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Kurosabes

I believe the AI bases itself on the 'preview' numbers, no matter how much it will end up doing, so if Life Song recovered 1-40%, the enemy would see it as 20.5%. If the attacker is not capable of dealing over 20.5% of the damage, I assume it won't do anything. I don't know if the enemy considers the Mimes, but I know the allies do. Things could get troublesome with 2 Life Songs though, that's a 40% healing average... maybe it should just get significantly faster, but also weaker? For example: 3 CT, Heal 1-20%, 10% Regen. This way it wouldn't mess with the AI.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Gaignun

November 11, 2015, 11:52:05 pm #2076 Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 11:57:47 pm by Gaignun
Quote from: CT5Holy on November 09, 2015, 02:18:56 pmActually, if Netherseer becomes a thing, I would vote against 3 AoE [Heaven's Cloud], but if Netherseer can't make it for some reason, then 3 AoE HC sounds good.


Hmm.  Monks have high PA, too.  Is 3 AoE Heaven's Cloud fine on monks but not netherseers?

Actually, I suppose it depends on the katana changes.  If a katana grants Strengthen: Wind, then Heaven's Cloud will hurt much more on netherseers than monks.  I suppose this means we'll have to balance katana and Draw Out in unison.

Quote from: CT5Holy on November 09, 2015, 02:18:56 pmPossible Spear designs! Copy-pasted from an earlier post of mine + adding a couple new ideas:
Spear with 50% Don't Move proc
Spear with 50% Power Ruin / Mind Ruin proc
Spear with 33% Undead proc
Spear with 100% Consecration proc
Blood Spear
Spear with 50% cast Life Drain proc (redundant with Blood Spear, but this encourages high Fa Lancers, possibly even 40/70!)
Spear with 50% cast Stop (someone else had this idea before)
Spear with 50% Blade Beam proc or 50% cast Balance proc
Spear with 100% Knockback (is this possible?) (ok maybe it shouldn't be 100% but it sounds funny!)
Spear with 50% cast Execute (possibly bonkers)
Spear with 75% cast Last Dance (overall result is 30% CT 00)


I like the Blood Spear, as well as the knockback and Last Dance spears.  In particular,

  • a 100% knockback spear would be awesome at interfering with AoE targeting, and killing targets with fall damage is always fun.

  • the concept of a Last Dance spear is neat.  It disrupts turn order, and is more effective against targets that are slowed, and conversely less effective against targets that are hasted.  The Last Dance animation might be a little jarring, though. (Poke the target, then interrupt the battle to do a dance?)  I wonder if it is possible to create a skill with a simpler animation (or no animation) and that reduces CT by a fixed value (30~50), and have the spear cast that skill at a 50~100% chance.

I was about to write about the Execute spear as well, but then realized that Execute is essentially a Climhazzard proc that kills the target at 25% HP rather than 50% HP.

To add, as I believe has already been mentioned elsewhere, a MP Blood Spear might also be neat.  Throw it on a caster unit, and the unit will poke something to restore its MP whenever its MP is depleted.  With this spear, conventional forms of MP healing, like Move-MP UP or Absorb MP, will not be necessary. On second thought, this type of weapon might be better as a pole than a spear, since caster classes have access predominately to the former.

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 09, 2015, 06:07:33 pm
Since Chiri would be Always: Berserk, it may as well have 0 W-EV since Berserk removes your evasion anyway. Just a small thought I had.


You're right, WKW.  W-EV would be superfluous on a weapon that grants Always: Berserk.  I'll update the list of proposals.

Quote from: dw6561 on November 09, 2015, 07:39:19 pm
What about a geomancy proc? It could be 100%, but the weapon itself would then have to be lower in WP so that it's not too overpowered. It would have the chance to proc status and get a little bit of unavoidable damage in there as well. We could use it for Kiku or a spear.


I vote for a spear for the sake of thematic consistency among katana.

Quote from: dw6561 on November 09, 2015, 07:39:19 pm
Also, does anyone else feel that Bolt 2 neets to go down in power a bit or something? It just seems to utterly destroy everything, but that could also be because I like high faith teams.


I believe Bolt 2 is working as intended in that case.  It is meant to be a faith destroyer.  To counter it, I recommend Rubber Costumes, White Robes, Reflect Rings, or M-EV.

CT5Holy

Quote from: Gaignun on November 11, 2015, 11:52:05 pm
Hmm.  Monks have high PA, too.  Is 3 AoE Heaven's Cloud fine on monks but not netherseers?

Actually, I suppose it depends on the katana changes.  If a katana grants Strengthen: Wind, then Heaven's Cloud will hurt much more on netherseers than monks.  I suppose this means we'll have to balance katana and Draw Out in unison.


My thinking was that if Netherseers were included, then I believe their PA-based AoE damage along with the 3 AoE Heaven's Cloud could be problematic. If there are no Netherseers, one lowish damage PA-based 3 AoE skill in isolation seems fine.
Then again, Flash Hat and Defense Ring still exist to deal with wind element stuff, but this also makes these items more essential for units -> less of a choice for team builders.

I like your idea for a new CT lowering skill used as a proc.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Gaignun

Ah, I understand.  There would be too many large-AoE wind spells, so the wind element would become too prevalent, huh?

In that case, we could keep Heaven's Cloud's AoE, damage, and slow proc as they currently are, but change the formula from MA to PA.  The slow proc ought to curb Heaven's Cloud's use as a healing skill.

silentkaster

Instead of Last Dance animation, it could be Persuade animation from Vanilla if you want to do a CT 0 skill. Simply having the CT reduced by a proc would work also. But that sounds like a fun idea.

Even if my idea of that Katana having Initial: Fury isn't well accepted, I do think there should be something with Initial: Fury at least. A piece of armor maybe? There are some unused templates like Linen Cuirass or Bronze Helmet I believe. Or, another idea is that we could add it to Katar (since that weapon has seen far less use since it lost 2H ability.) These are just ideas I'm throwing around but having one piece of equipment with this at least I feel is ideal.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.