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Dome [Posts: 4890]
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  • [January 31, 2012, 09:58:48 AM]
[Old] Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
« on: January 31, 2012, 09:58:48 AM »
Which special unit in your opinion is the most useless?
Discuss
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 10:55:22 AM by Dome »
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Neophyte Ronin [Posts: 144]
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  • [January 31, 2012, 11:35:47 AM]
Re: Most useless special?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 11:35:47 AM »
Clarify between Vanilla, Plus, or perhaps both.

If Vanilla, Any Weather reigned supreme due to the designers' lack of attention given to climate and terrain.  Much of it was dummied when compared to equivalent games thanks to the sheer otherworldly sentiment of any kind of terrain or climate having any impact on a fight in a Final Fantasy game.  Any Ground was also a contender.  Thank God things are different in Plus, because those glaring oversights always bothered me.

Plus:


Throw took a backseat in Plus.  Even if Catch is gone, Bullet Guard is still there, and there's only one Move Boost Ability to extend range with.  Characters with Move 3 need not apply here.  The dummied Axes could have been loads of fun to chuck around whether or not they were available to the player, though they'd be extremely expensive.  Despite the increase in power, Shuriken and Balls have nothing on other methods of fighting, especially since most monsters lack elemental weaknesses and no enemy formation will equip the non-standard Fire, Thunder, and Ice Shields.

Uselessness is one thing, but something that is too useful overrides everything else.  During many hunting trips, I noticed one character was getting high levels due to constant use: the character with Yin Yang Magic.  The complete set, save Condemn, seemed like a no-brainer to have.  Now, creatures tend to have status immunities, but they are not abrasive or all-encompassing.  Also, the Knight's Precision ability more than compensates for the inability to directly adjust Faith scores.  Coupled with Pray Faith, my answer to practically every encounter ended up as two words: "Giant Frog."

Seriously.  Sending the original Black Magics of Frog and Poison to the Oracle/Onmyoshi/Mystic and then making Poison a permanent affair made for a character who has the answer to practically every monster encounter.  That's pretty much the story behind Beowulf's original Templar Class command and its success in hunting monsters: these spells are brilliant.  Adding Frog and Poison, on the other hand, makes Yin Yang Magic the catch-all solution to practically any bad-ass.  Even the Squids and Illithids can't match the party if they themselves have found the dark, terrible secret they have always sought after: "Giant Frog."  Black Magic can't match that anymore, even though it used to be perfect alongside Yin Yang Magic for these reasons and more.

Given some thought, I'd say Summon Magic has some real issues, enough to take this crown of most useless special.  It's worthless against the aforementioned Illithids, since their answer to everything is "Counter Flood" and their stats override the original limits of Geomancy.  As for Summoning, all they do is deal thematic elemental damage and, if not, deal slightly better non-elemental damage or do so instantly.  Big deal.  So can the Attack Command, and it's cheaper.  Regardless of cost, Elements are nowhere near as good as they used to be.  Monsters who were originally weak to some kind of element are no longer weak to it, or had their affinities adjusted, or some creatures (goblins and squids) are impossible to face with magic.  That's okay--they're all "puzzle encounters", where you gotta have the proper abilities to ensure a smooth fight.  Which isn't Summon Magic.

Not to mention, Summons were dummied just because the Summoner used to do a good job protecting the party as well.  Can't have the ability to heal and protect and still be considered fair and balanced, it seems.  Mog, Fairy, Golem, and the seemingly redundant Salamander and Cyclops were dismissed from the roster.  When the Summoner's supportive and healing abilities went by the wayside, my interest in the command was lost, chiefly because I never considered Summon Magic to be a mere replacement for the Black Magic command.  It was never that.  Golem seemed like too much of a cheat against human encounters, mostly because it was expensive but quick to cast and operated on the user's Maximum Health.  It didn't cover all attacks and is nowhere near a perfect defense, yet it was dummied.  Mog and Fairy used to heal, but they were ousted also.  To be quite frank about the affair, once Summoners got pegged for doing nothing but wreaking havoc with the classic damage-based Summons, they simply became a homogenized Black Mage with a few extra elements tagged on.  Longer casting ranges mean nothing if they don't deal enough damage to faze the enemy's tactics.

That's pretty sad, considering there could be other things that Summons can do from any distance that don't need to revolve around damage (barring the exceptions of Earth and Water, namely Titan and Leviathan, and even they could use some adjusting).  All things considered, Lich is pretty much your go-to guy since he wasn't changed a whole lot.  Even though you can cast from long distance, any distance really, the others aren't doing enough damage to warrant prolonged use of anything else but Lich and Precision.  With the exception of risen bones, phantoms, or anybody claiming to be a master bonecraftsman, you can go no better than a couple Lich summons to ruin the battlefield.  And any Class Specialty where only one ability is worth the time of the player is a Class Specialty that's better off reworked or abolished entirely.
Dome [Posts: 4890]
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  • [January 31, 2012, 11:50:02 AM]
Re: Most useless special?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 11:50:02 AM »
Er...with special, I meant "Special units" like Mustadio, Agrias, etc xD
But thanks for the feedback anyway, it will help me improve FFT: Plus 1.01c

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HebrewToYou [Posts: 51]
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  • [January 31, 2012, 02:24:19 PM]
Re: Most useless special unit?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 02:24:19 PM »
I would say Worker 8 and Mustadio are the worst by far.
Dome [Posts: 4890]
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  • [January 31, 2012, 02:39:43 PM]
Re: Most useless special unit?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 02:39:43 PM »
I would say Worker 8 and Mustadio are the worst by far.
Can you explain why?

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Elric (Overseer) [Posts: 3892]
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  • [January 31, 2012, 03:08:43 PM]
Re: Most useless special unit?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 03:08:43 PM »
I would say Worker 8 and Mustadio are the worst by far.
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Mustadio and Worker 8 are awesome   :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:38:26 PM by Elric42 »
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    Dome [Posts: 4890]
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    • [January 31, 2012, 03:11:13 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit?
    « Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 03:11:13 PM »
    Remember that we are talking about FFT: Plus and not Vanilla xS

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    HebrewToYou [Posts: 51]
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    • [January 31, 2012, 04:11:43 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit?
    « Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 04:11:43 PM »
    Can you explain why?
    Sure.  For one, I personally feel that the game is very much weighted towards the Female characters -- their exclusive access to handbags, carpets, hair-"jewelry" and perfumes make them quite potent indeed.  So when I build a FFT+ battle group, I will stack it with female special units.  By end-game, it was Ramza + Rafa, Meliadoul, Agrias and Reis.  Four ribbon-wearing ladies all with Chantage?  Easy peazy lemon squeezy.

    So, right off the bat, the male special units are at a disadvantage.  So when I consider uselessness, I have to ask myself: what *uniqueness* does a male special unit bring to the table?  In the case of Mustadio, his special skillset -- Snipe -- has nothing that really makes him stand apart.  He's got a mix of Oracle skills and Knight skills -- so why use him over Beowulf?  I really cannot find a reason aside from a higher Brave value.

    As for Worker 8, "he" is a very fun Special Unit since he's so unlike anything else in the game.  But he's incredibly limited and becomes very dull to use after a while.  The only time I've used him at all, in fact, is after getting to DD and making it a goal to get every Special Unit (including Rad and one Onion Knight) to level 99.

    Just my $0.02
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    Joseph Strife [Posts: 580]
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    • [January 31, 2012, 04:43:52 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit?
    « Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 04:43:52 PM »
    Mustadio and Worker 8 are awesome   :mrgreen:

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    shoruke [Posts: 50]
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    • [January 31, 2012, 04:45:10 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 04:45:10 PM »
    Alicia and Lavian. They lack a moveset (wow), and they only thing they have that generic squires don't is that they can learn Dragoon Spirit, Concentration, Two Hands, and Move+1 in their squire class. Unimpressive.

    Second (third?) worst place goes to Rad. Most of the other special characters have something that makes them better than the generics. Rad's entire bit is that he has the most basic moves from 4 spellcasting classes. Sure, Haste and Raise and maybe Poison and Pray Faith are all kinda useful, BUT... not useful enough. And putting fire/ice/bolt on his list is like making a big flipping point out of how little combat utility he has, because immediately after recruiting him, you are forced into a fight with enemies who have stronger spells than his base class can give you. He's essentially a generic that joins late.


    I would say Worker 8 and Mustadio are the worst by far.
    Mustadio can cripple almost any non-boss enemy at range with reasonable accuracy (handy for random encounters, if not boss fights) and utterly perma-own any undead enemies he meets, and Worker 8 is basically a machinegun turret that is immune to all magic (even the goddamn BANHAMMER) and can heal itself. And just for bonus points, you can have him interrupt enemy's spellcasting/performing/etc. if you don't feel like just having him dole out damage like the walking tank he is.


    Given some thought, I'd say Summon Magic has some real issues, enough to take this crown of most useless special.  It's worthless against the aforementioned Illithids, since their answer to everything is "Counter Flood" and their stats override the original limits of Geomancy.  As for Summoning, all they do is deal thematic elemental damage and, if not, deal slightly better non-elemental damage or do so instantly.  Big deal.  So can the Attack Command, and it's cheaper.  Regardless of cost, Elements are nowhere near as good as they used to be.  Monsters who were originally weak to some kind of element are no longer weak to it, or had their affinities adjusted, or some creatures (goblins and squids) are impossible to face with magic.  That's okay--they're all "puzzle encounters", where you gotta have the proper abilities to ensure a smooth fight.  Which isn't Summon Magic.

    Not to mention, Summons were dummied just because the Summoner used to do a good job protecting the party as well.  Can't have the ability to heal and protect and still be considered fair and balanced, it seems.  Mog, Fairy, Golem, and the seemingly redundant Salamander and Cyclops were dismissed from the roster.  When the Summoner's supportive and healing abilities went by the wayside, my interest in the command was lost, chiefly because I never considered Summon Magic to be a mere replacement for the Black Magic command.  It was never that.  Golem seemed like too much of a cheat against human encounters, mostly because it was expensive but quick to cast and operated on the user's Maximum Health.  It didn't cover all attacks and is nowhere near a perfect defense, yet it was dummied.  Mog and Fairy used to heal, but they were ousted also.  To be quite frank about the affair, once Summoners got pegged for doing nothing but wreaking havoc with the classic damage-based Summons, they simply became a homogenized Black Mage with a few extra elements tagged on.  Longer casting ranges mean nothing if they don't deal enough damage to faze the enemy's tactics.
    Obviously what you need is MOAR SUMMONERZ
    No, but seriously. Summoners are not so great against monsters, but I got past Finath River easily by spamming Summons from across the map.
    (I miss Moogle and Golem as well)
    HebrewToYou [Posts: 51]
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    • [January 31, 2012, 07:58:41 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 07:58:41 PM »
    Mustadio can cripple almost any non-boss enemy at range with reasonable accuracy (handy for random encounters, if not boss fights) and utterly perma-own any undead enemies he meets
    The same "crippling" can be done by Beowulf -- who also has the ability to petrify anything, not just undead.  Additionally, his skillset is much more complimentary to other jobs; Mustadio, by constrast, is most effective when using ranged weaponry. 

    and Worker 8 is basically a machinegun turret that is immune to all magic (even the goddamn BANHAMMER) and can heal itself. And just for bonus points, you can have him interrupt enemy's spellcasting/performing/etc. if you don't feel like just having him dole out damage like the walking tank he is.
    He's a very effective killing machine, of this there is no doubt.  But that's *all* he does!  He provides no benefit to the party aside from being a tank -- literally! -- so why not just use a human or monster that can attack *and* buff/heal/raise if needed?

    Again, just my $0.02 -- YMMV!
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    Taichii [Posts: 812]
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    • [February 01, 2012, 05:12:21 AM]
    Re: Most useless special unit?
    « Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 05:12:21 AM »
    * Elric42 Stabs HebrewToYou

    Mustadio and Worker 8 are awesome   :mrgreen:


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    Dome [Posts: 4890]
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    • [February 01, 2012, 11:37:56 AM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #12 on: February 01, 2012, 11:37:56 AM »
    Well, Rad, Alicia and Lavian are not supposed to be uber-strong, because you get them very early XD
    I still think they are quite useful, I'm using them for my recorded playthrough and they are very helpful units

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    shoruke [Posts: 50]
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    • [February 01, 2012, 04:56:39 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #13 on: February 01, 2012, 04:56:39 PM »
    Well, Rad, Alicia and Lavian are not supposed to be uber-strong, because you get them very early XD
    I still think they are quite useful, I'm using them for my recorded playthrough and they are very helpful units
    How? Do they have super-high stats or something?
    Dome [Posts: 4890]
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    • [February 01, 2012, 06:15:28 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 06:15:28 PM »
    Have you tried them in the last version?

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    Neophyte Ronin [Posts: 144]
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    • [February 04, 2012, 09:53:55 AM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 09:53:55 AM »
    Shoruke, the latest edition of Tactics Plus makes the first three "generics" into unique classes.  Dome devised an Onion Knight that is actually playable and nowhere near kitchy or far-fetched as the WotL version, while the Red Mage comes through with a cool assortment of powers that work great with any Class as a secondary set and also as a good complement to other specialist magi and warriors, as a Red Mage should be.

    As Onion Knights, Alicia and Lavian are reasonably useful units, like generics with twists.  Keep one, train in a good complementary set of Class Abilities, then change back.  The OK's have innate Maintenance/Safeguard, the ability to equip anything in the game, and Innate Re-Equip, to switch any piece of equipment as needed.  So, if the girl is facing monsters that deal heavy damage but seem to lack status-changing effects, against your predictions on the Formation screen, then she can Re-Equip to something a little more appropriate, like from a Ribbon to a Black Hood, or even better.  It makes Re-Equip feasible.  The Onion Knight is ironically good despite the Mastery Abilities being rather cheesy in the end-game, because with the right secondary Class (I assume you've been training in at least one good set), the Character becomes an effective hedge soldier--not game-breaking or godly like Orlandu, but solid, with good potential for tanking, defense, healing, or applying various tactics without being pegged down to a few by virtue of equipment.  You can't scorn the RSMs, either, considering a few are life-savers and Double-Grip is more feasible during the early game rather than later.

    Rad is peculiar.  It's not killing to restrict him from the standard Basic Skill set.  He isn't missing it.  Red Magic is very portable and applicable in many situations.  Though the standard elemental bolts might be underpowered coming from him, the big deal is the power to heal, bolster, protect, and also poison other units.  Poison goes farther than in Vanilla Tactics because it has no time limit--none that I have seen--so creatures with high agility such as Panthers (after taking several hits) suddenly find themselves dying faster and faster without it ever going away.  Left unchecked, poison murders people in this game.  As it should.  Having Poison as part of Rad's lineup is good, but he also has the power to port some of the standard or essential buffs of various classes to any Class he damn well wishes to use, which seriously affects his success with any Class in general.  If warrior-centered classes had Haste, Wall, and Raise, they'd be set.  Well guess what?  As a Red Mage, Rad has a fair shot at standard attacking and decent magics to save his skin.  He just needs a good complementary Class Ability to go along with it, to round out his powers.  Pray Faith is very handy when teamed up with other mages, especially against monsters.  If you hate his standard weapons for any reason, Rad is one of the few characters who takes the most advantage of Punch Art and Martial Arts.  Chakra makes for a self-sufficient buff-mage with decent attack potential.  So yeah, the Red Mage ain't broken, but it ain't overwhelming either.

    Compared to standard Generics, Rad, Alicia, and Lavian have received a massive renaissance and should not need major retooling.

    Judging by comments, Mustadio cannot shake the monkey off his back!  He was bad in Vanilla and even worse in the re-issue, and here, it's worst of all apparently.  Even with a limited set of magics, Beowulf retains the power to petrify anybody, while Mustadio is restricted to Undead.  Good grief.  Everybody is gonna hate on Mustadio like, forever.  These are the same sorts of complaints I've heard from when I played Vanilla, so it's nothing new.  If any character will forever need a renaissance, it's this guy.

    I would switch him up, perhaps by adding "Innate: Charge" to his Command Set as an Engineer.  This could be flipping amazing: imagine a character who, despite not having the Charge Abilities from the Archer learned just yet, has the ability to switch to them as an Engineer and fight with them, in addition to Snipe and an optional Class Ability.  This means his standard Snipe Skill set remains unchanged, while he can select Charge/Aim to deal greater damage once he receives appropriate training.  Charge is pretty slick so far, thanks to its improved casting speeds and Short Charge's ability to affect it further; it's almost like a Rogue Sneak Attack!  Further, it allows Secret Hunt/Poach to happen, meaning a successful Don't Move/Immobilizing shot paves the way for a Charge+20 that turns that creature into parts.  Mustadio can get quite a little extra power out of his weaponry; the right weapon turns into a crippling blow!  And since it's an Innate like Defend is for everybody, he still has a secondary Command Option to fill, allowing for even more attack options.  Mind you, if Balk gets the same exact Class, it can make both his encounters even more harrowing, assuming the CPU grants him Archer Class Action Abilities to toy with.  I understand the CPU "knows" for sure how to secure a Charged Shot if it is available.

    Or, if you really wanted Mustadio to be a decent character, he has a whole lineage of sneaky sots in his ancestry, so apply some dumb logic: give Mustadio some means of bluffing his opponents out, or stealing anything not nailed down and on fire.  I would give this guy an ability to Steal one random item from an enemy's possession if within melee range.  It would check if there's something to be stolen, and out of the non-empty spaces of the foe's check if one item gets stolen (one item at random, so it's not a surefire thing like it is with standard thievery).  This means you'd use one ability instead of having to train several specific ones, but it might not get what you want to Steal, so it's a little unreliable, perhaps a bit expensive too.  Given some persistence, though, you'll get everything.  If that doesn't sound terribly good for balance's sake, yet we still wish to make Mustadio's Class playable without a great deal of thought or effort, stick either Innate: Concentrate or Innate: Precision so that Snipe is halfway decent, especially for Power Break, Magic Break, or Mind Break that operate under a different formula and fare worse against high evasion.

    Finally: Worker 8 is meant to be a joke character.  His introduction is the only funny cinema in the game.  Period.  What does that tell you?  Steel Giant isn't supposed to be incredible as a Class, and good thing considering that Balk has three of them at his beck-and-f-ing-call.  They're meant to be dealing heavy blows and that's all they're good for.  The fact that they can heal themselves is horrifying, considering that's the only reason I rarely used the one in Vanilla and the fact that it happens here means the enemy Steel Giants are going to be an even bigger pain to take down.  Worker 7 was a pushover, so I shouldn't say too much until I get there.
    Dome [Posts: 4890]
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    • [February 04, 2012, 10:03:02 AM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 10:03:02 AM »
    Mmm, thanks for the feedback guys
    Giving Mustadio the whole charge skillset as innate might be a bit too much, but a "Charged shot" might be nice

    Oh, and remember to watch this topic
    Quote
    - Buff the hit % of Mustadio skills

    P.s: Should "Seal evil" become 100%?

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    Neophyte Ronin [Posts: 144]
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    • [February 07, 2012, 01:25:56 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 01:25:56 PM »
    There would be battles where Mustadio would indefinitely dominate, all of which involve Undead of some kind.  It would make him sort of a niche character, but that's okay; it's better than the hate everyone keeps spamming him with.  I say go for it.  Just don't go preempting the notion by making every undead creature immune to Petrify.  That's just cruel.
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    Pickle Girl Fanboy [Posts: 1482]
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    • [February 09, 2012, 07:38:10 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 07:38:10 PM »
    P.s: Should "Seal evil" become 100%?
    Depends.  How easy is it to inflict Undead in Plus?
    Dome [Posts: 4890]
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    • [February 09, 2012, 07:39:45 PM]
    Re: Most useless special unit in FFT: Plus?
    « Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 07:39:45 PM »
    The only way to have the undead status on you is to get hit by an boss-only skill or equipping the cursed ring
    Or being an undead monster ;-)

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