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Lore Rework

Started by Dokurider, September 24, 2013, 04:44:18 pm

Dokurider

September 24, 2013, 04:44:18 pm Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 05:20:01 pm by Dokurider
One type of skill I always wanted to have was a skillset that took in the layout of the map very heavily. It was rather racking to come up with a mechanic that would force terrain consideration but I, with the help of fdc, came up with the idea of repurposing the Truth/Random Fire mechanics to make a terrain focused skillset.

In 1.3, Truth/Untruth was turned from one of the most laughable and weak skillsets in the game to one of the scariest and strongest skillsets in the game. How did this happen? It was pretty simple really: 1.3 just decreased the Vertical Tolerance. That way, it was easier to invalidate panels, thus concentrating onto less panels for a devastating attack. It made Truth a very strategic skillset, making players find areas they can easily box enemies into to maximize damage potential. It was so effective, especially when it came to boss slaying, that it had to be nerfed in subsequent patches.

I would like to bring this sensibility to the Lore skillset, that is, a skillset that is directly affected by the terrain. Right now, Lore's map skills are very static and do exactly the same thing, only via different elements. This has the effect of making Lore harder to counter then it should be, because all you have to do is take another map lore and you're good to go for hitting the enemy from across the map. It steps on Life Song/Wiznaibus' role by healing and damaging everyone at the same time and in the right hands, can be absolutely devastating, especially with the Mime buff incoming.

So what I propose to alleviate this problem is to combine Map Lores and Truth together, by making large AoE Truth/Random Fire spells. What this will do is make Lore overall a much more terrain oriented class, capable of being dynamic and powerful, while at the same time still fulfilling the role Lore had originally set out to fill.

Damage formula = F_MA * Y
All spells are of the Random Unit and Random Fire property unless specified.
===========================================================================

Prism Tribute: Weapon Elemental, 254 AoE, 255 Vertical, 0 Range, Y = 4, No Random Fire, 6 CT, 15 MP, Unevadable

Als Magna: Holy, 3 Range, 5 Vertical, 3 AoE, Y = 6, 5 CT, 30 MP, 6 Hits, Always Hit Caster

Prospero Tempest: Wind, 4 Range, 4 Vertical, 2 AoE, Y = 4, 5 CT, 30 MP, 4 Hits

Rime Bolt: Ice, 5 Range, 2 Vert, 1 AoE, Y = 5, 4 CT, 20 MP, 5 Hits, Random Space

Maelstrom: Water, 1 Range, 255 Vertical, 3 AoE, Y = 7, No Random Fire, 4 CT, 15 MP, Unevadable, No Reflect

Earth Dragon: Earth, 3 Range, 0 Vertical, 2 AoE, Y = 4, 5 CT, 30 MP, 6 Hits

Phoenix Bond: Fire, 3 Range, 0 AoE, Y = 5, 4 Hits, 4 CT, 12 MP, Always Hit Caster

Hex: Random Add: Poison, Blind, Silence, Don't Act, Don't Move; 10 Range, 0 AoE, F_MA + 40%, 4 CT, 10 MP, No Random Fire


"But wouldn't having large AoE mean these Truth/Random Fire skills be hitting a lot of empty space, y'know, like Truth usually does?"
Yes it would, but we have devised a way to stop Random Fire from firing onto empty spaces. Basically, a table(or offset idk) exists in FFT that limits AoE to just units, which is exclusively used for the Song/Dances. By routing these skills into that table, Random Fire will only fire onto units. Of course, this requires some ASM'ing, so this may take a while to come to fruition. Otherwise, it's actually pretty different from Truth this way.

"Wouldn't Random Fire combined with Target Units Only allow for one unit to get potentially peppered with instances? At least with normal Random Fire, it had a chance of hitting empty space unless you were in a bad spot."
It is a possibility, but it has been mitigated as much as possible. All Map Lores except for one(Rime Bolt doesn't count) that I have proposed, will always take the caster into consideration as a target, thereby making the average hit ratio 2:2 worse case scenario. 

"But what about my old Lore Teams? Are they good as scrapped?"
Don't worry about having to scrap your old Lore Builds; Prism Tribute has consolidated all of the old Map Lores into one handy skill. But it also locks you into an element unless you dip into the other Terrain Lores. You can all thank its Weapon Elemental attribute for that.

"F_(PA + MA)/2? What gives, hombre?"
Basically, it's a way to stop MA stacking, which is what I felt was a problem with the old Lore. It also has the wonderful side effect of opening Lore to more unorthodox users. Scholars are well suited for Lore right now anyways, given their high PA for a mage. All it would require is a slight PAM bump to make them perfect for it. Of course, Scholars are planned for a retool anyways. Of course, this is going to take more ASM, but this shouldn't be too difficult.

"What about monsters? Wasn't the Scholar slated to become a Monster Nanny and Babysitter Beastmaster class?"
I feel this is a more subtle and less rigid method of being a Beastmaster class because Monsters, whenever they are introduced, would benefit greatly from the elemental nature of the skillset, being Elemental beings themselves.

"What effect would Mimes have on these skillsets?"
Mimes would actually have a difficult time with these new skillsets. Prism Tribute is completely cut off from them because they can't hold weapons at all, thereby just hitting everyone on the field. The rest would still be hard to Mime well because they are so sensitive to positioning. Making Lore unmimeable is no longer necessary.

"Why send Mad Science to Time Mage?"
Because I feel it would do the most good there. No other skillset can take it, yet I feel it's a worthwhile skill and should still exist.

"'Dark Whisper'? That name sucks."
All skills are open to be renamed.

"Speaking of, what's with Dark Whisper, anyways?"
Dark Whisper represents Lore's high ranged game without stepping on Comet/Dia. Instead of dealing damage, it just randomly adds statuses. Keeping with Lore's theme of terrain consideration, Dark Whisper stops at obstacles, making its effectiveness depend on the map.

Malroth

Heaven rain will essentially 1shot anything that doesn't absorb holy (small AOE high Y 6 hits) , Phoenix Ray however is so weak as to be useless (large aoe Y=2 4 hits)

formerdeathcorps

September 24, 2013, 06:43:29 pm #2 Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 06:51:08 pm by formerdeathcorps
Malroth, you misread the proposal.
Heaven Rain has an AoE of 3 meaning it is very likely to catch many units in the crossfire.  Each of the six hits randomly choose one of those units for damage.  It is NOT hitting all units in range 6 times; in fact, the odds of dealing heavy damage to one unit is small.  OF course, if someone is stupid enough to separate one unit from the rest of their squad and said unit does not have M-EV or holy absorb, then yes, heaven rain WILL deal over 300 damage to that solitary unit the way holy would, but that's your problem for running a berserker.
Phoenix ray seems weak, but you're forgetting that linear is far likelier to only hit the caster and one other target.  The fact that it is instant (rather than 5 CT) is also useful in many speed tie situations.
Doku, my only suggestion is to scrap the Faith dependence for spells using the new formula; otherwise, the damage will be too low compared to the spells you replaced.  Since you essentially removed the ability to reliably heal your own team's HP and MP (off Absorb MP) and deal damage to the entire enemy team at the same time, you don't need a damage nerf, especially one that favors the classes already being boosted by the new mechanics proposals (tanks).  Plus, mages need a real way to counter flash hat; as Avalanche shows, that item is useful even outside ninjitsu teams.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Dokurider

Quote from: Malroth on September 24, 2013, 06:22:47 pm
Heaven rain will essentially 1shot anything that doesn't absorb holy (small AOE high Y 6 hits) , Phoenix Ray however is so weak as to be useless (large aoe Y=2 4 hits)

In addition to what fdc said, Heaven's Rain's AoE is too big to outrange, meaning it'll always take the caster into consideration, so you'll always have two targets to divide the hits across. Again, only Windstorm is capable of a one man barrage.

Removing faith? Eh, I suppose you have a point. Rime Bolt should keeps it's faith though.

Gaignun

September 24, 2013, 10:38:32 pm #4 Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 10:09:23 am by Gaignun
Heaven's Rain is not going to hit the caster on many maps if it has 0 Vert and finite Range.  A fix would be to give it 0 Range and finite Vert.

Heaven's Rain, Windstorm, Rime Bolt, and Earth Dragon are all capable of one-man barrages, especially in mid-to-late battle when units are KO'd, because of their 0 Vert (or small AoE in the case of Rime Bolt).  We will need to consider this when balancing these skills.

Dokurider

September 25, 2013, 05:07:35 pm #5 Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 05:22:24 pm by Dokurider
You're right about Windstorm and it was a deliberate choice. It's why I gave it stop on obstacles as a balancing factor. Not a problem on some maps? Consider that units are also considered obstacles. It could go down to 3 hits if it really had to though

Rime Bolt doesn't count because it will not have the target only units hack applied to it, meaning it works just like Random Fire normally does in hitting empty spaces. Can it be abused like Truth was in 1.3 and hit one target? Yes. Is the AI smart enough to do that? No the AI don't understand how Random Fire works. They just see it as a standard AoE and they can't abuse it like a player would. There might be accidents, but for the most part, it should be OK.

Earth Dragon has a fixed vertical for it's range, meaning it can't be casted on any panel not the caster's height. Therefore it'll always have the caster as a target.

Heaven's Rain...uh, you're right on that count. In that case, I'll just give it 255 Vertical, so the caster cannot ever avoid it's own AoE. Problem solved.

Dokurider

Updated OP.
Windstorm lost some Y value and gained CT and MP cost. Lost Stop at Obstacle.
Heaven's Rain CT and MP cost went down to 4 and 25 MP.
Rime Bolt's MP cost went up to 20 MP
Earth Dragon gained an additional hit
Phoenix Ray became Unevadable, but gained Stop at Obstacle.

FFMaster

September 27, 2013, 08:18:02 pm #7 Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 08:59:31 pm by FFMaster
There are a few things wrong with your statement about 1.3 Truth/Untruth.

Here are all the known changes from my memory:

1) Formula changed to MA*Y damage (a buff earlygame, nerf lategame)
2) Early 1.3 had it at 2 vert and enemies only, creating the Rafa rape box strat. This was eventually changed back to 3 vert, hits allies but not self
3) CT changed from FUCKING LONG TIME to 0

So actually, the reason Truth/Untruth worked was more because of it losing all charge time. Rafa/Malak gaining way better stats and equipment also helps.

EDIT: Overall, I don't see anything wrong with the skillset. It can be added alongside the Beastmaster abilities just fine.

EDIT2: Mimes will be able to equip weapons in the next patch if they use the Support needed.
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Gaignun

These spells could use a little more power, in my opinion.  To start, it will be very difficult to push (PA+MA)/2 to 12.

Windstorm is equivalent to 0-AoE Bolt 2.

Rime Bolt is equivalent to 1 AoE, Dmg_F(MA*3.2) on average.  I'd be comfortable reducing its Vert to 1 (or even 0).  Even then, it will be no more frightening than a low-MA 3 CT Holy.

Maelstrom: Given its low range, this seems to be suited for melee units.  Accordingly, its CT could be lowered.

Phoenix Ray is equivalent to Shuriken which hits its caster as often as its target.   Maybe a slight damage boost is in order.

As a final note, these spells would go nicely with elemental mantles, as these mantles will block the self-damage of two spells.  Unfortunately, the mantles' EV doesn't mix well with 3~5 CT spells.  Maybe while we're ASM'ing, we can create a new reaction ability that allows units to cast spells without experiencing an EV penalty.

Dokurider

The idea of (PA+MA)/2 was to prevent MA stacking, taking possible XA from 28-26 to 21-20. In fact, most of these spells are designed to stamp out stacking period. From requiring self absorption/null, to needing to make your weapon elemental.

FFMaster

QuoteMaybe while we're ASM'ing, we can create a new reaction ability that allows units to cast spells without experiencing an EV penalty.


Already working on that. If it works, it's getting added to Awareness.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢