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Patch Collaboration

Started by Archael, November 07, 2008, 10:31:40 pm

Archael

November 07, 2008, 10:31:40 pm Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
IMO the site's talent is being divided in between way too many people working on their own separate patch.

Wouldn't it be better to collaborate on broader, related, larger projects instead?

For example I see two different idea threads for a FFT Sequel patch.


Let's be honest, not many project ideas ever get off the ground very well, and even less become finished in a reasonable amount of time.

If we work together on focused, specific projects, we increase the chances of these projects taking off the ground and being turned into awesome completed mods.






Example: If everyone who worked on 1.3 had kept their own ideas for their own personal balance patches, instead of working together on a single project;

Then today we'd have 8 different "parts" of 1.3, each with great ideas, with the same purpose, but in separate patches, with different authors, none of them would have a forum section, and none of them would have a very large player base.





I think this site has a lot of talented people but we gotta be less focused on the personal project and more willing to work on community project which is always going to be superior.

Thoughts?

Lydyn

November 07, 2008, 10:35:18 pm #1 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Lydyn
Completely agreed, Voldemort. We'd have to decide what to work on as a community.

Cheetah

November 07, 2008, 10:56:52 pm #2 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Cheetah
You are correct Voldemort. The number of threads in this section almost doubled this week. Currently LastingDawn's Mercenaries patch is well supported and is making lots of head way, I would consider that a team effort in a lot of ways because LD asks for constant input and has several spriters backing him up (myself included). Zozma's project while new has also had a lot of work done on it.

I think something that everyone needs to realize is that if they actually want their project done they need to recruite people, and have something to show before starting a topic on it. And definitely have something to show or a lot of work done before requesting their own forum section.
Current Projects:

The Damned

November 07, 2008, 11:36:11 pm #3 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
I don't know if the phrasing, but Voldemort7 sounds he's proposing something slightly different from what you said, Cheetah.

Anyway, in theory this is sound, until you remember that 1.3 is kind of a bad example since that started off from something that already a group project AFAIK (i.e. 1.2), it's just that philsov disappeared (apparently).

1.3 is also a bad example because it didn't change anything sort-wise and focused purely on mechanics. A lot of the more recent patches (including my own, which hasn't been posted and won't be for some time) seem to be focusing on story, which is a particularly sticky issue when it comes to compromise.

I think we all know that feelings can be easily hurt over attempts at compromise, especially since every project will probably have some type of leader.

Basically, I would advise that if group thing need be mandatory as Voldemort7 seems to be implying--I think that's why I feel his post is different from yours, Cheetah--in the original post, that the groups should be kept small. I don't really think that groups need to extend beyond two or three people (not including beta testers) to keep it simple and easy (and to make it easier for people to stay focused on one patch with limited number of people we have around here), especially since it's probably easy to get away with having specialized focuses since we already have a lot of FFT's skeleton lain out before us.

For instance, I think that for my patch, I personally won't need anyone except for a spriter or two since everything else should be capable of being done by myself. (Then again, I'm not a relationship type person and compromise is something I see as usually screwing me over, so....)

Group talk aside, I would also advise for the original posts for threads in this forum be rather detailed, even if they are concise, as to the main gist of the changes.

Things are always subject to change--I think I've changed my new classes like 5 times already--but it's easier to support/get behind something if we know "exactly" what the hell it is.

/rambling


P.S. I find it odd that LastingDawn's project doesn't have it's own forum when the only other sub-forum besides 1.3 only have two people working on that project.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Zozma

November 08, 2008, 01:23:50 am #4 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Zozma
actually I think LD didn't want his own section, hes sure had enough votes for it, i know that much. the same goes for me, I don't really want to make it an official thing (at least untill im much further along anyway) but I do feel the need to post that way I have my ideas put down somewhere that i can get more.

Anyway I partially agree with you Voldemort, however, just like many who start their own patch, there are quite a few things I want to do exactly my way in the game. I don't mind helping out every now and then for a project thats going well, like mercenaries, but a big part of my enjoyment with fft patcher and shishi is that i get to have things my way, and its quite enjoyable. I can't even always commit to making specific sprites, i mean i created Misty and Jenna just because i felt like it at the time... just to name a few examples. I'm not planning a sequel or anything, it sounds like a big undertaking really, plus you'll need a whole new cast of characters since so many bit the big one in the main story. But I really wouldn't mind someone making it... still I wouldn't necessarily want to be the one editing all of the event stuff.... still, it is understandable that if several ppl are planning to make sequel patches or other patches that are very similar, they should come together on that if they want to share with everyone...
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
Wiegraf: Draw your sword Ramza!
Ramza: But im a monk!!

boomkick

November 08, 2008, 10:53:02 am #5 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by boomkick
I completely agree, but we need an idea to move this along. I vote sequel, but to Ramza's descendant.

DarthPaul

November 08, 2008, 11:18:52 am #6 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by darthpaul
This does make a lot of sense as i stated my idea for a patch with only the basics on the drawing board.  I still dont have more than some ENTD changes and text edits so this idea of Voldemorts makes a lot of sense to me.  So now i must find the person who has a similar idea to mine and have a chat about teamwork.
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others. Oh damned soul wallowing in your sin, perhaps...it is time to die

Archael

November 08, 2008, 05:12:42 pm #7 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
The Damned:

I understand the whole compromise / feelings / involvement issue, but I think that's the part where people need to grow up and put aside their personal shit for the good of work being done.

I understand 1.3 isn't a perfect example, but trust me a lot of opinions went in there, and everyone (including me) had to come to a compromise on a ton of things

You think the criticism you hear now a days is harsh?

You should have seen Asmo go on the chat while 1.3 was getting started

DarthPaul

November 08, 2008, 05:41:02 pm #8 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by darthpaul
And I'm to guess Asmo was one harsh beotch from hell.
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others. Oh damned soul wallowing in your sin, perhaps...it is time to die

The Damned

November 08, 2008, 06:14:50 pm #9 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by The Damned
Quote from: "Voldemort7"The Damned:

You think the criticism you hear now a days is harsh?

No, actually.

What I was trying to say was that I feel that if groups should come together, that it should be more "natural" than a "neccesity" as you seem to be saying.

Personally, I'd rather have too few people for my work rather than a large, vestigal amount of people who unnecessarily overlap and get nothing done.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Archael

November 08, 2008, 06:36:14 pm #10 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
true that

I'm not saying it's a necessity

I'm saying it can be a more efficient and beneficial method

DarthPaul

November 08, 2008, 10:57:33 pm #11 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by darthpaul
Okay recruiting for a new patch. Get this it's a back story to the main games story with all of us as the characters who end up cleaning up where Ramza messes up.  This is legit too not a parody.  And by clean up duty lets say i dunno Zodiac is the one who saved Delita since it makes sense to make Zodiac the main character.  And if that where to happen it would be funny cause it would mean Teta had nothing to do with his survival.  So what do ya think stupid idea, good idea, i like cake, whatever.
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others. Oh damned soul wallowing in your sin, perhaps...it is time to die

Disco_Peach

November 09, 2008, 11:25:29 pm #12 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Disco_Peach
The Damned and Voldemort 7:

Way ahead of you guys. I'm helping out Lydyn with his patch and we've made one helluva back-story. Amazing progress. I even tossed the idea by him of joining our stories in order to have a real in-depth game that would be ready in half the time. He lights the candle by his end and I light by mine.

However, sometimes this might not be such a good thing. Working around his story we stumbled upon the fact that some core elements of the plot did not cohere as I would've liked. However, I am still helping him out and the progress is staggering. He has some great ideas and things cooked up so this is a patch to be waiting for.

Also, much like the Zelda franchise, sometimes games based on the same places and people can have totally different stories. For instance, in what Voldemort is talking about, my example is that basically Lydyn and I have two different direct sequels for FFT. I don't think it's such a bad idea because it's just two different opinions of what's going on. Sometimes teamwork isn't enough to mix together two plots that diverge into completely different directions. Coming up with ideas for Lydyn, I found that it was oil and water. I even PMed him to forget about some ideas of the merger I tossed his way and to just keep it close to his own baby.

Mine, however, goes a different way, but has more or less the same feel. By me scratching his back and he mine, we're still gonna make hasty progress on our projects.

I agree totally on what you said, though Voldemort. I am one who believes that these types of things are finished faster in groups. So I merely ask for help in some areas in order to get this flowing. I am more than thankful for the attention and, just like Xmas, good things are worth the wait. Cuz by the time you finish playing one great game, the other one is fresh out the oven.

It's ok to focus on one's own major patch. Just also help others in the process :D

samuchan

November 10, 2008, 01:21:49 am #13 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by samuchan
Lydyn and Disco:

You can probably get away with sharing some game mechanics changes (new spells/abilities, new sprites/jobs), while having different plots.

Think of it as a tree.  Collaborated mechanics changes is the branch (growing from the original FFT), while the differing plots are the twigs sprouting from the branch.

I'm sleepy.

Havermayer

November 10, 2008, 03:46:24 am #14 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Havermayer
Question:

How much event and scenario editing can be done so far?  From what I've seen of a lot of other projects, it seems that they take the same story sequences, but change the dialogue and sprites around.  And you still fight in the same maps in the same order, on the same world map.

If so, then it might be best to work on finding out how to change these things, so that you can use the core engine of FFT, but make truly new games out of it.

And, it'd be nice to make truly new abilities, animations, as well as R, S and M abilities.  

My idea of a fan-made PC pseudo-sequel to FFT is great.  However, it'd be insanely hard to pull off, since we'd have to work from the ground up.  There would have to be a ton of work put into it, and I think the technical skills required for it are above any of the people here.  So this approach is potentially the most rewarding, but also the most difficult.

Disco_Peach

November 10, 2008, 07:55:33 am #15 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Disco_Peach
To samuchan:

Shared mechanics might be great in the sense of, for instance, Lydyn's patch coming out first and people getting used to the skills and the jobtree, etc. Then, when mines comes out, people will be familiarized with the mechanics and play my game in the same manner. This can be totally crippling to either game. Sometimes the fun of playing something comes from its freshness (ok, that sounded so 1995). I'd still like to keep as much different as possible without having to be selfish and not share any ideas. My ideas are not cast in iron and I don't mind people borrowing some of my ideas. However, the reality is just that. If too many things are the same, then there won't be as much fun to play the second one to come out. I don't know, that's just my fear. I'd rather help out as much as possible to get his patch out of the works as soon as possible. Mine too! I'd like for the FFT community to play my patch as well.

To Havermayer:

-Event and scenario editing:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/psx/downloads.php
in the main page there are many useful programs for such a thing. The problem is knowing a bit of programming. Here:
http://www.ffhacktics.com/wiki/Event_Sc ... orrelation is some ASM directions of the scenes and scenarios in the game. How much is editable is still beyond me, but they are ever possible. So you can basically make your own SRPG game with the core FFT engine (within obvious limitations, of course).

-You can edit some skills (I have learned by both experimentation and orientation by skilled members here). For instance, you can't edit Item, Throw, Jump, and other skills that aren't <Default>. Also, the only editing you can give R, S, and M abilities are name changes, JP learned to master, which job learns it, and which job has them as innate abilities.

-Yes, I saw your post and your idea is good. If you really, really, really, really want to do it, I recommend programming it for the Nintendo DS. There are many sites out there dedicated to making homebrew games and applications for the DS. Just google that shit and download any and all tools. If you're good at C++ then you're saved! Cuz DS programming can be done in C++ via the NDS' PAlib (once again, google that shit, my friend). My dream is to one day make my RPG trilogy for the DS (I've been using RPGMaker 2000 for a loooooooong time and I'd like to remake them for a console - how kickass would that be!). And I plan to do it with this method. You want your idea? You gotta start from the ground up. Java was recommended, but if you wanna go hardcore and blow people's socks off, the NDS is the way. Also, with NDS emulators, you can play the game on a computer if you don't have the NDS or the necessary artifacts to run homebrew.

VincentCraven

November 11, 2008, 09:31:09 am #16 Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 05:59:40 pm by VincentCraven
Do we have any patch that centers around Chocobo fighting? As in Chocobo Knights for enemies as well?  We need some of that somewhere.

Edit: <Delete>

But if anyone has a patch they want me to test, I'd be more than happy to try it.  Really just so I can steal your ideas, but don't take it personally.
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.

Cheetah

November 11, 2008, 02:12:27 pm #17 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Cheetah
Welcome back Vincent.
Current Projects:

LastingDawn

November 11, 2008, 04:18:25 pm #18 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
People are apparently a bit ignorant of all of which can be edited at this current time, with a slight bit of collaboration and a 3-5 person Research Department, we could crack many of the mysteries, that deals with nothing more then testing things out. As it stands, we can edit, the Whole of the Brave Story, from even the beta Facts, we can open Propositions and Fur Shop anytime we like, can have Ramza in any of his three outfits on the map screen, control game progression, and map progression, our editing powers are great, and all it takes is a bit of knowledge of Attack.out (which is where battle events, and scenarios are held) and Test.EVT's functions and the game is yours to command.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Lydyn

November 11, 2008, 04:22:29 pm #19 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Lydyn
Quote from: "LastingDawn"People are apparently a bit ignorant of all of which can be edited at this current time, with a slight bit of collaboration and a 3-5 person Research Department, we could crack many of the mysteries, that deals with nothing more then testing things out. As it stands, we can edit, the Whole of the Brave Story, from even the beta Facts, we can open Propositions and Fur Shop anytime we like, can have Ramza in any of his three outfits on the map screen, control game progression, and map progression, our editing powers are great, and all it takes is a bit of knowledge of Attack.out (which is where battle events, and scenarios are held) and Test.EVT's functions and the game is yours to command.

We just need someone that knows all that and is able to teach others clearly (no offense to those who've tried to help me, I am grateful).