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Discord Discussion

Started by silentkaster, April 26, 2016, 10:59:45 pm

Zotis

Should Protect and Shell have a buff?  Increased percentage, or maybe 0ct, and increase the cost a bit, maybe to 100?  Because I think as is they are never used.

Gaignun

Are these Discord discussions going to replace the Balance discussion thread?  Concerning 1.40, there is a wealth of arguments in the Balance thread that have been thought out and reasoned by many people over the course of nearly two years.  It would feel a little regrettable to jettison it.

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on May 02, 2016, 09:35:28 am
Are these Discord discussions going to replace the Balance discussion thread?  Concerning 1.40, there is a wealth of arguments in the Balance thread that have been thought out and reasoned by many people over the course of nearly two years.  It would feel a little regrettable to jettison it.


Discord just seems like it's been for active discussion, rather than slowly doing stuff over time.

I do agree that stuff shouldn't just be jettisoned, though.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

silentkaster

Quote from: Zotis on May 02, 2016, 12:59:28 am
I just figured I'd give my thoughts on some of the topics Andrew mentioned on the first page.

I think Hi-potion's  JP cost does not need changing.  It feels balanced as is.

I don't think I like the idea of changing Grand Cross's AoE, don't know about the MP cost or vertical tollerance though.  It seems fine as is.

I don't know what "sticky targeting" means.  If the CT for Reraise gets reduced to 0, I perceive a problem as a unit gets up and reraises itself instantly could be a bit OP.

Hawk's Eye loosing poison makes sense, and adding Darkness instead could work thematically at least.

Leg Aim inflicting Stop instead  of Don't Move makes no sense.

Weapon Break is fine as is.  Weapon Steal makes less sense to me.

Wave Fist loosing Wind element does make sense.  It was always a non-elemental move and I think it works better as non-elemental.

Protect/Shell giving any healing at all does not make sense.

Dia should not be AoE at all, but 6 range could work, though I think it's fine as is.

Fire adding Oil has never made sense to me, especially since Oil boosts all elements and not just fire.  I would advocate changing Oil to only boosting Fire like in the original game.  Maybe make a different effect that boosts all/other elements?

Haste/Slow should be changed because as is they are never used.  Reduce the CT, MP cost, JP cost, and increase the percentage of success, an improvement of some kind at least should be made I think.

I don't see the need to change any of the Summon Magic.  Making Salamander non-elemental makes no sense.  Fairy healing more would be too OP.  Carbunkle being free to cast would be broken.

In conclusion I would like to say that change for the sake of change is pointless, even harmful.  Changes should only be made in the pursuit of gameplay balance.  Once things are solidified in a balanced way they should remain unchanged.  Maybe FFT Arena can grow into a competitive scene with $$ tournaments.  I'd like to see that, and constantly changing things doesn't help that because it changes the way the game is played and forces people to learn the new mechanics which can hinder the advancement of understanding the mechanics.  It takes time, years in fact, to gain mastery level understanding of advanced strategies and tactics which advances the metagame of competitive play.  So I don't like resetting that advancement unless it's essential.


Zotis, there are many reasons that we have proposed certain ideas. Let me tell you that something that I thought could get finished in the course of a night or two has turned into a discussion going back and forth on ideas for three nights and counting. We aren't even close to being done...we haven't discussed all the classes yet (which is where we started) let alone all the ideas. Some ideas for abilities and items have taken a half hour or longer on just one ability or item alone. We're not taking any of this lightly.

For example, regarding Hi-potion, you said "It feels balanced as is." However, the reason that we are proposing lowering the JP cost is because X-Potion is now 130 HP straight healing. In order to break even with Hi-Potion, you need to have a unit with at least 325 HP. It is hard for many units to get to 325 HP as is and as a result, hi-potion is used far less often. Why use it when it will take the spot of another item and do a minimal amount of "extra" healing than the X-Potion? This alone was probably a ten minute discussion and still gets touched upon. We will probably need to discuss it again when we get to the armors which we haven't even touched on yet.

That being said, many ideas that were initially proposed didn't make sense or I didn't agree with either until I heard reasons. Sometimes I still disagreed, sometimes I was swayed and sometimes I was so marginally on either side I was indifferent to a change. It's really helpful if you're able to join any of these conversations and while I realize that schedules are hard to line up and whatnot, joining the conversation even for a short period gives you the opportunity to realize the tone and method of these discussions and see where people are coming from.

Quote from: Gaignun on May 02, 2016, 09:35:28 am
Are these Discord discussions going to replace the Balance discussion thread?  Concerning 1.40, there is a wealth of arguments in the Balance thread that have been thought out and reasoned by many people over the course of nearly two years.  It would feel a little regrettable to jettison it.


No. In fact, Andrew compiled a list in a thread of most, if not all the suggestions of the past two years and made it easy to access. Your name gets mentioned a lot in the discord discussions too regarding certain ideas and proposals you have made. It's also why we're posting the ideas that we came up with so that if we've overlooked something, it can be commented on or discussed. In fact, this thread should not really be used to discuss ideas and whatnot...this should only be used to coordinate discord meetings. (I only mentioned hi-potion above as an example more to show the method at which we arrived at the suggestion rather than trying to refute his argument.)

Finally guys, when ideas are posted, I again want to stress don't take them as written in stone. We will have a final proposal when all is said and done because right now, ideas are still changing quite a bit as more people weigh in and offer suggestions.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Barren

Are people going to be available for a discord discuss tomorrow night around 7 PM EST? We can pick up from where we left off from last time
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Reks

Quote from: Barren on May 02, 2016, 12:23:33 pm
Are people going to be available for a discord discuss tomorrow night around 7 PM EST? We can pick up from where we left off from last time


Might be able to wake up in time for it, but we'll see. Sounds great, if I'd be able to.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

silentkaster

Sounds good. I don't feel well today so tonight would probably not be good but tomorrow sounds fine.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Andrew

I should be able to make it for tomorrow at 7 PM EST.
  • Modding version: PSX

Shintroy

X Potion could be 200 with Hi potion at 150.
Some day my people will be free.

Barren

We will get into that eventually
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Andrew

Discord is simply an alternate, more engaging way to propose/discuss Arena suggestions.  If you can't make it to a session, don't feel like your input doesn't matter, because it still does.  If you feel left out, then I'm sorry, but like Zotis did, feel free to comment on the ideas we've come up with, or submit your own in the 1.4/original discussion thread.  If anything, we could do a poll to see what the best time during the day/week would be for most people and go from there; so far, we've been doing it at 7 PM EST on days that we've agreed upon.  If you want some insight on how sessions usually are, then I recommend reading what silentkaster posted above. (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=11344.msg215345#msg215345)
  • Modding version: PSX

CT5Holy

Prob won't be making it today, but perhaps at some point we should couch the discussion around stuff in this post, which was a compilation / summary of a lot of prior discussion: http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=5431.msg211847#msg211847
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

silentkaster

Are we going to have another discussion soon?
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Andrew

How about tomorrow night at the "usual time"? (7 PM EST)  Regardless, I'll pop in tonight at the same time and see if there's enough people for a discussion or not.
  • Modding version: PSX

Reks

You guys love to decide to have the discussions on my work nights, don't you? :P

Kidding, I know you don't plan it that way. Just my bad luck that they all seem to be planned for when I have to work. Alas.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Barren

I can make it for tomorrow. Just for a couple of hours or so. Got a staff meeting the very next morning at 7AM EST
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

silentkaster

I will stop by tonight along with Andrew. Friday nights can be pretty difficult for me sometimes so atm, I'm not sure I can make it tomorrow but will stop by tonight just to check if anyone is on.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Barren

Come on and hang out until we are ready to discuss!
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Shintroy

Got through Long Bows and Katana today. Looking forward to making samurai units with using the attack action in mind. With Genji Helm adding SP instead of being useless, I think it's safe to say we'll see a lot more Katana + Genji Helm + Diamond Armor combinations. Something I'd never think about before.

With Mime staying at 8 sp without shield access I'll just quit mime and make highly competitive samurai teams instead, it'll be a challenge with the masamune ability possibly being nerfed

With melee samurai being a thing should Masamune really lose it's regen effect?  With SP altering being out of the game I think we'll see more Yell usage combined with accumulate and focus. Wouldn't mind yell actually being instant and self cast with an mp cost tbh.

Future is looking bright for 140
Some day my people will be free.

Andrew

I'm available all weekend to talk.  I'll pop on tonight at 7 PM EST to see if anybody's around, and the same goes for tomorrow.
  • Modding version: PSX