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FFT Arena: Stats/Ability Discussion Thread [MONSTERS]

Started by FFMaster, September 29, 2010, 07:01:45 pm

FFMaster

Unit stats are at Level 35 and growths:
HP: 5
MP: 5
Speed: 100
PA: 50
MA: 50

Generic Monster Raw Stats
HP - 3986762
MP - 928404
SP - 109494
PA - 150156
MA - 150156



Abilities:

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Melancthon

This is the Monster Ability Brainstorming thread, yes?  And the priority is R/S/M abilities?  And we are only using third tier monsters?

/Spanish Inquisition
Just a collaborator plotting collaboration.
"WHATS ST AJORA'S DEAL DUDE!?"

Skip Sandwich

September 29, 2010, 10:06:21 pm #2 Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 10:27:28 am by Skip Sandwich
copy-pasta from the other monster thread

Skeleton
Always: Undead
Absorb: Dark
Weak: Holy, Fire
Half: Ice, Wind
Immune: Don't Act, Don't Move, Death Sentence, Poison, Regen, Sleep
Reaction: HP Restore
Support: Defend UP
Move: Move Underwater

Knife Hand: deals basic physical damage and may inflict Don't Act

Burial: deals 40% of target hp damage, range 4, area 4, linear attack, dark element

Coffin Nail: deals PA/2 * PA damage, range 2, area 1v3, dark element, may inflict Don't Move

Lurk: self heal 25% hp and add Defending (death formula)


Ghost
Always: Undead
Initial: Transparent
Weak: Holy, Fire
Half: Ice
Cancel: Earth
Immune: Don't Act, Don't Move, Death Sentence, Poison, Regen, Sleep
Reaction: Sunken State
Support: Defend UP
Move: Teleport, Float

Throw Spirit: deals PA/2 * MA damage, range 4

Possession: give a single ally an extra turn, cannot target self, range 3

Scare: inflict Don't Move, Silence or Sleep, range 4, area 0

Malevolence: sacrifice self to deal shock damage + 100% Charm, range 4, area 0

Drain Touch: steal 50% of target MP, range 1v3



:EDIT: instead of sunken state, other reaction choices are Blade Grasp or MP Switch to represent it's ethereal nature, I'd say MP Switch might be the better choice, since it blocks punch art as well as reduces the potential damage from Malevolence. Also replaced confusion status with Silence status in the Scare ability.

General note/ideas
All monsters need some sort of special effect tied to their 'basic attack', such as enhanced range or status infliction. In my examples above, the skeleton inflicts Don't Act and the Ghost has a ranged magical attack instead of a standard melee attack.
Monsters need innate status resistance, aside from the undead units above, I imagine most would have immunity to only 1 or 2 status effects each.
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FFMaster

For now... people can suggest whatever ideas they want. I really have no ideas at this point in time.

Use this format:
Monster Name
Stats(don't worry about multipliers, I can number crunch those myself)
Elemental attributes
status immunities
Reaction
Support(more than 1 possible)
Movement(more than 1 possible)
Abilities(these need a detailed description) - don't worry about restricting yourself to 4 moves. They will have a proper skillset and a normal melee attack.



Personally, I dislike this, since it is limiting the options for monsters, and hence they won't be used as much, since all they can really change is Brave/Faith/Zodiac. But this is the easiest way to implement them, and it won't be too hard to change to another system if this system doesn't work.

If you don't like someone's idea, don't hesitate to point it out. But make sure you at least give a reason for it.

I want say... 5 monsters with fairly complete skillsets before I release the next version, and then we can test it out.
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Shade

Mindflare
High MA, Medium HP,(very high mp(if monsters do use mp at this tourney)) Weak PA, move 4, jump 3, speed 8
weak thunder, absorb water
don't act, don't move, confuse, charm, silence, berserk
counter magic
MA up
move on water
Mindflare(range 3, no aoe, inflicts only one status on random(DA,DM,confuse,charm,berserk),evadable(mp?)), Leviathan(from summoner),brain touch(range 1, no aoe, inflicts 100% confuse) Water(Element water(duh), range 4, aoe 1, formula and damage same as fire 2)

Might be little too strong.
Upupupu...

Zetsubou

PX_Timefordeath

Vampire
250 HP, 150 MP, 9 SP, 15 PA, 12 MA
Weak Light, Absorb Dark
Frog, Confuse, Blind, Charm
Regenerator
MAU
Fly, Float, Move HP+, Move MP+
Blood Suck(33% Max HP Drain, 100% hit, No status, 0 vert, single target, 1 range, 0 MP)
Blood Lance(4 Range, 4 Vert, 25 MP, MA*10 Damage, M-EV, Dark Element)
More to come

The Damned

Sigh. This thread just serves to mind me how lazy I am and how I still haven't worked on anything (or even played the game) in four months.

As such, I'll do my best when it comes to ideas. Right now, I'm going to make a post off the top of my head. Well, that and my previous work in FFTPatcher.

*opens FFTPatcher and loads "Embargo" for the first time in four months*

So, if five usable monsters are what you desire, I would say that it would probably be best think about niches that need to fill both role-wise and elementally as well as the current problems, such as the previous elemental absorption oversight (that was inherently in the game) and the continued problem with Confusion, Death Sentence and Blood Suck statuses.

The niche can wait a bit, as I think that's more applicable for when we get more monsters (and it's not like we have to use all of them).

*looks at Uribos*

Before I suggest anything, though, I guess I'll do critiques first:

Quote from: "Skip Sandwich"copy-pasta from the other monster thread

Skeleton
*snip*

Ghost
*snip*

:EDIT: instead of sunken state, other reaction choices are Blade Grasp or MP Switch to represent it's ethereal nature, I'd say MP Switch might be the better choice, since it blocks punch art as well as reduces the potential damage from Malevolence. Also replaced confusion status with Silence status in the Scare ability.

General note/ideas
All monsters need some sort of special effect tied to their 'basic attack', such as enhanced range or status infliction. In my examples above, the skeleton inflicts Don't Act and the Ghost has a ranged magical attack instead of a standard melee attack.
Monsters need innate status resistance, aside from the undead units above, I imagine most would have immunity to only 1 or 2 status effects each.

I agree with both the sentiments that special monsters should perhaps have a special effect tied to their basic attack (though it's perhaps unnecessary for the ones with stronger PA) as wekk as the fact that there should be some innate status immunities. I think that a lot of monsters could stand to have immunities to more than 2 statuses, especially dependent on their elemental affinities and stat distributions.

However, I do not think that any monsters should be immune to Don't Act (I'm forced to make an exception later because of, well, you'll see), especially since there's a Chemist item to get rid of Don't Act now and a lot, if not most, of the humans on teams thus far have been decidedly vulnerable to Don't Act. If it proves necessary for some monsters, then sure, but otherwise I'd rather not start off with it.

That said, I have already stated how I liked your designs and how they were similar to my own, so there's not much more to say right now that won't get said again below anyway.

Quote from: "Shade"Mindflare
High MA, Medium HP,(very high mp(if monsters do use mp at this tourney)) Weak PA, move 4, jump 3, speed 8
weak thunder, absorb water
don't act, don't move, confuse, charm, silence, berserk
counter magic
MA up
move on water
Mindflare(range 3, no aoe, inflicts only one status on random(DA,DM,confuse,charm,berserk),evadable(mp?)), Leviathan(from summoner),brain touch(range 1, no aoe, inflicts 100% confuse) Water(Element water(duh), range 4, aoe 1, formula and damage same as fire 2)

Might be little too strong.

As said above, I don't think that Mindflayers need immunity to Don't Act.

Also, I don't believe that a way to make monster spend MP has yet to be found, so giving them MP is pretty pointless as long their total is enough to cast whatever spell you would give them.

Speaking of which, I would prefer if it tried not to give monsters human spells since we have ability space still what with us having all the space that Zodiac monsters and special characters would normally use, for one thing.

I do like the store of (obvious) design of Mindflayers as mages--their robes certainly help with that image--that deal damage, but yours seems pretty damn strong, between innately high MA (high MA for a monster is pretty absurd compared to humans), innate Magic Attack Up on top of that and then giving them the ability to self heal instantly while doing damage with "Water". Their Counter Magic would be pretty ridiculous as well for the aforementioned reasons and it's not like magical teams need to get weakened any further at present; Leviathan's been weakened enough that it probably wouldn't be instant death to most things it touched, though it would probably still easily 2HKO.

Besides, there's no reason to waste a monster's (Innate) Support Slot with Attack Up or Magic Attack Up.

Besides that, Mindflare and Brain Touch causing Confusion is...iffy considering how bad the AI still is at dealing with that ability in addition to it not wearing off. Mindflare also having that range is questionable.

So, yeah, it seems a "little" strong, but at least seems on the right track.

****

Okay, so with that address, next we come to possible choices.

Personally, I'd think best, if, starting off, we avoided the monsters that already saw use in the last AI tournament. This means that we are avoiding at three monster classes off the top of my head:

  • Bombs
  • Minotaurs
  • Dragons
  • Uribos

I forget if anything else was used, though we pretty much need one of the Undead classes as well as the Mindflayer (since it already absorbs Water); I'm going to go with Skip's Ghost other than his Skeleton because his Ghost already has five abilities and I kind of hate HP Restore. We can also cut out other classes from consideration IMO:

  • Chocobos - Like Dragons, they are the most varied between the three different types, which is problematic if we're trying to make amalgams of things.
  • Goblins - Will take a bit of doing to differ from Monks since that's basically what they are. (Well, lesser Monks with innate Ice weaknesses and innate Talk Skill immunity, yay!)
  • Hydras - Are also rather tricky to balance and I'm sure it doesn't help that many people think that they are the most OP of monsters. So we'll just skip that unpleasantness for now.

So, with those exceptions accounted for and the two aforementioned monsters--Ghosts and Mindflayers--already chosen, that would leave three more monsters.  I would choose Marlboros (Morbols), Treants (Woodmen) and Cockatrices (Juravis).

I'm going to "fudge" the elemental absorptions a bit--not that I was going to directly copy what I was doing for monsters--so that we hit all elements besides Fire and Ice; this is going to assume that the Archaic Demon will still be around to absorb Darkness when start testing.

Let's start with Ghosts. Since I'm "borrowing" these from Skip, I'm going to bold my changes:

Monster Name: Ghost
Stats: Lowish HP (though enough to withstand two Hi-Potions at full health), Lowish MP (though perhaps enough to take one Hi-Potion and still have MP left when at full), below average PA, above average MA, above average Speed, exceptional C-evasion, 3 Move, 3 Jump (not that it matters with Teleport)
Elemental Attributes: Absorb: Wind; Weak: Holy, Fire; Halve: Ice, Wind; Immune: Earth
Status Immunities: Don't Move, Poison, Regen, Dead (I figure they need to be immune to one of Undead-hating abilities and Seal Evil is more readily curable), Death Sentence, Darkness
Reaction: MP Switch
Support: Defend UP
Movement: Teleport, Float
Abilities:
  • Throw Spirit: deals PA/2 * MA damage, range 4, area 0
  • Possession: give a single ally an extra turn, cannot target self, range 3, area 0, perhaps some minor CT
  • Scare: inflict Don't Move, Silence or Sleep, range 4, area 0, direct
  • Malevolence: sacrifice self to deal shock damage + 100% Charm, range 3, area 0
  • Drain Touch: steal 50% of target MP, range 1v3

I was going to say that you could just give Ghosts innate Float status since the only thing Float Movement does differently is allowing stopping over lava panels and we barely fight at Volcano as is. However, Ghosts might prove sturdy enough, so making them more obnoxiously defensive isn't exactly necessary...right now.

Let's move on to Mindflayers next since Shade already did that, even if I only agree with half of what he wrote. Regardless, I'm similarly going to bold my changes:

Monster Name: Mindflayer
Stats: Average HP, ??? MP (not sure if it should matter, though, since I don't want to give them human abilities at present; perhaps give it less MP than the really destructive human spells so that Counter Magic doesn't annihilate someone who Flares or something), Average PA, High MA, average Speed, below average C-evasion, 3 Move, 3 Jump.
Elemental Attributes: Absorb: Water; Weak: Lightning; Halve: Fire, Ice, Water
Status Immunities: Confusion, Charm, Berserk, Frog
Reaction: Counter Magic, Finger Guard
Support: Concentrate
Movement: Move Underwater
Abilities(these need a detailed description):
  • Brain - Deals basic physical damage and may inflict Charm.
  • Mind Flay - Attempts to shut down an area of the brain (can inflict Don't Act, Don't Move, Berserk, Sleep, Slow or Stop), range 3, vertical 0, area 1, probably needs some minor CT, does not discriminate
  • Mind Mend - Attempts to restore brain functions (cancels all the things that Mind Flay inflicts) and perhaps heal (I guess it would have to use Raise's formula or whatever; I was never good with the status abilities that healed HP), range auto, area 2, needs some CT, may or may not discriminate
  • Stillstream - Releases a linear torrent of water (Water Elemental), hard enough hitting (at best average damage) that it can possibly Blind (Darkness) or Slow its targets, range 5, area 5, linear, does not discriminate, unavoidable
  • Aqualung - Submerges a large area of the battlefield in a pool of swirling, suffocating water (Water Elemental), above average damage (between the Black Mage's level 2 and level 3 spells), range 3, area 2, maybe shouldn't hit the user, needs some middling CT, may or may not discriminate, should follow target

And single-han...tentacle-ly, Mind Flayers double the amount of Water elementals we have. Anyway, I obviously feel they should focus on mental and Water-based attacks. Concentrate support may be odd, but they're sure as hell not getting Magic Attack Up (not that they should need it) and I believe I justified in my version by thinking that Mind Flayer's eyes are probably largely vestigial; giving them Innate Darkness like I did is not really needed.

Also, my delay in and lack of testing has me uncertain about how monsters with Counter Magic react, especially since I tried to desperately avoid using anything magical on 1.3 Ahriman unless I certain it would kill them. So they "need" Move-MP-Up over Finger Guard.

So, now we finally get to three I proposed. I suppose I'll go one by one. I'll start with Marlboros, who I picture as being some tanks who care about status:

Monster Name: Marlboro
Stats: Very high HP, nonexistent MP, average PA (maybe slightly above average), below average MA, below average Speed, average (potential above average) C-Evasion, 3 Move, 3 Jump
Elemental attributes: Absorb: Earth; Weak: Ice; Halve: Earth, Dark; Immune: Water.
Status immunities: Darkness, Silence, Poison, Sleep, Don't Act, Don't Move.
Reaction: Regenerator
Support: Unyielding
Movement: Any Ground, Walk on Water
Abilities:
  • Grope - Deals basic physical damage and may inflict Poison
  • Tongue - Deals a paralytic poison via a lick, inflicts Poison and/or Don't Act at 100%, range 1, vertical 1, area 0, may be unavoidable
  • Goo - Flings an acidic poison at an area that may inflict Poison and/or Don't Move, range 3, vertical 3, area 1, does not discriminate
  • Sour Mouth - Takes a deep breath and then unleashes the foulest smelling-breath possible that can inflict Darkness, Silence, Poison, Sleep, Don't Act and/or Don't Move (Separate than Random), range auto, vertical 2, area 2, does not discriminate, probably needs a middling CT.
  • Blow Away - Can take smaller breath and blow a small whirlwind a target to disorient them and weaken them, below average Wind Elemental damage that may inflict Poison and/or Slow, range 4, vertical 1, area 0, direct, does not discriminate, may need minor CT, should follow the target if it has a CT.

So, yeah, Marlboros are meant to be tanks focus on Poisoning and out-lasting their prey. They might be too sturdy already, but they need resistance to their own bad breath and Regenerator just seems kind of "fair" since most of the other tanks whore Regen as it is. Not much else to say here, really, though they could maybe stand to lose Don't Act immunity and from Sour Mouth/Bad Breath.

Let's move on to Woodmen--I don't understand why they're "men", I call them "Woodfolk" personally:

Monster Name: Treant
Stats: Above Average HP (if only slightly), ??? MP (it doesn't really matter), ??? PA (again, shouldn't matter), high MA (since this will matter the most), below average Speed, below average C-Evasion, 3 Move, 2 or 3 Jump
Elemental Attributes: Absorb: Holy; Weak: Dark, Wind; Halve: Fire, Lightning, Water, Holy, Earth.
Status Immunities: Don't Move, Petrify, Frog, Death Sentence, Float.
Reaction: Counter Flood
Support: Defend UP, Magic Defend UP
Movement: Any Ground
Abilities:
  • Leaf Dance - Weak basic Draw Out-like MA-based attack that is perhaps Holy elemental, range auto, vertical infinite, area 2, discriminates, hits self.
  • Root Hold - Manipulates roots and plants on and in the ground to immobilize the enemy by way of Don't Move, Slow or Stop, range 5, vertical infinite, area 0, perhaps some minor CT.
  • Branch Out - A slightly stronger (though perhaps with a weaker multiplier given monster's MA) of Samurai's healing Murasame ability, range auto, vertical 2, area 2, discriminates, perhaps some minor CT.
  • Bear Fruit - A mish-mash of what old Kiyomori used to be combined and Reflect, randomly giving Protect, Shell or Reflect at 100%, range auto, vertical 2, area 2, may or may not discriminates, probably fine without CT.
  • Green Word - Mass AoE revival spell, range auto, vertical 2, range 3, does not discriminate, probably needs at least middling CT.

Yeah, Woodfolk are basically the White Mages of the monster group as they were before and I feel that's fine as long as they can move this time around. I'm not really sure about their RSMs. Counter Flood could be obnoxious with high enough MA, but Regenerator is something that Marlboros have; maybe Damage Split? But that seems best saved for Hydras.... Similarly, they perhaps don't need both Defend UP and Magic Defend UP. Hell, I was tempted to not give them any Support in favor of three Movements (Any Ground, Walk on Water and Move-HP Up).

Shrug.

This is already getting rather long, so let's finish this off with Cockatrices:

Monster Name: Cockatrice
Stats: Below Average HP (if only slightly), ??? MP (doesn't matter yadda yadda), above average PA (esp. since they're basically the most physical class of these fives), below average MA, average Speed (maybe above average), average C-evasion, 4 Move, 3 Jump (not that it matters with Fly).
Elemental Attributes: Absorb: Lightning; Weak: Water; Halve: Lightning, Holy, Wind; Immune: Earth
Status Immunities: Poison, Petrify, Death Sentence
Reaction: Arrow Guard/Projectile Guard, Counter
Support: Overwhelm
Movement: Fly
Abilities:
  • Rake - Basic physical attack that may inflict Darkness
  • Feather Bomb - The Cockatrice's feathers are somehow...explosive, said to be capable of even aggroing an angel-- small damage Fire Elemental that use MA and may inflict Berserk, range 4, vertical infinite, area 0
  • Preen - Inflicts Haste and Regen on self (basically 1.3 Shine Lover) at 100%, range auto, area 0
  • Dive Bomb - Heavy damage attack that uses the Work formula, range 1, vertical infinite, area 0
  • Shine Lover - The Cockatrice tries to turn its prey into a lovely marble status inflicted with Petrify and Reflect, range 3, vertical 3, area 0, direct, perhaps needs some minor CT.

Eh, Cockatrices are all over the place, but that's largely because, besides Shine Lover, none of this is really from my version of the Cockatrice (at present).

Besides, I've typing this for a while and haven't thought out most of these as much I feel I could. These are all just first drafts, so feel free to rip them apart and shit.

(Man, I kind of wish that I hated on Earth elemental less, but it's not like it ever really gets used outside of Earth Slash anyway....)

TL;DR: Absorption of elements:
  • Archaic Demons = Dark.
  • Ghosts = Wind.
  • Mindflayers = Water.
  • Marlboros = Earth.
  • Treants = Holy.
  • Cockatrices = Lightning.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

A few things
QuoteAlso, I don't believe that a way to make monster spend MP has yet to be found, so giving them MP is pretty pointless as long their total is enough to cast whatever spell you would give them.

1) All monsters will be Ultima Demon style, and so they will use MP and not be limited to 4 moves.

2) The 3 tiers of monsters thing from vanilla/1.3 will be scrapped. All monsters will get the 8 different palettes. This way, if people use the same monster, it won't be so confusing.

3) The above also means their regular attack will be like a humans. So no statii, unless you want it as an ability.
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Shade

Was it decided that absorb, is halved?

lol concentrate on mind flayer.
Upupupu...

Zetsubou


FFMaster

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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The Damned

Very well. I will try to think of more worthy movesets and/or monsters with those things in mind, FFMaster.

Anyway, since it came up, would allowing Blood Suck status be so bad if monsters being let back/added? They're all innately immune to Blood Suck anyway and it's not like equipment can't be made resistant to it.

Quote from: "FFMaster"1) All monsters will be Ultima Demon style, and so they will use MP and not be limited to 4 moves.

2) The 3 tiers of monsters thing from vanilla/1.3 will be scrapped. All monsters will get the 8 different palettes. This way, if people use the same monster, it won't be so confusing.

3) The above also means their regular attack will be like a humans. So no statii, unless you want it as an ability.

1) I see. I think I now recall you mentioning this a month or so ago.

2) Yes, I figured.

3) Are you sure how that will work for the monsters who didn't have a "normal" attack to begin with like Ghosts, Woodmen and Hydras? Otherwise, noted.

Quote from: "Shade"Was it decided that absorb, is halved?

lol concentrate on mind flayer.

Yes, Concentrate on a Mind Flayer is pretty "lulz", but it makes "sense". Additionally, MA UP and ATK UP are wastes of spaces on monsters.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

All 3 you mentioned have working attack animations.
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FFMaster

I did a few changes, but most of it is similar to what The Damned has said.



  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Melancthon

Goblin
HP 400 MP 25 SP 8 PA 15 MA 10
Null Earth, Half Fire, Weak Ice
Immune Conf, Dk, Chrm
PA Save
Magic Def. UP
Move HP-Up
Magic Hammer (50% MP damage), Goblin Punch, Revive, Weapon Break
Just a collaborator plotting collaboration.
"WHATS ST AJORA'S DEAL DUDE!?"

FFMaster

I would rather we stick to the 6 monsters first. I want to expand/theorycraft their skillsets a bit more.

I was thinking of giving Ghosts a large AoE Demi spell. Something like 33% HP, Dark Element, 4 Range, 2 AoE.

EDIT: I need skillset names for the monsters as well.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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FFMaster

Here we go, take a look. A few changes here and there, so take a close look at everything.






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Zaen

Those are actually some pretty good looking skillsets. I might actually consider using one when I make a team sometime soon...
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Pride

I really like the spread on the monsters so far, makes them very unique and, most importantly, challenges human units for a spot on a team. Very good work on those.
  • Modding version: PSX
Check out my ASM thread. Who doesn't like hax?

Skip Sandwich

awww... you got rid of possession? I thought that was a really cool ability in concept, having the ghost briefly possess the body of a teammate to use their skills. Was there some sort of problem in testing or did you just not like that particular flavor?
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"Yeah.  I can't get you through the cell now."
"You have to talk through the bratwurst from now on. I'm sorry. I didn't know it would do that."
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