• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 
March 29, 2024, 05:35:32 am

News:

Please use .png instead of .bmp when uploading unfinished sprites to the forum!


FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

The Damned

(Blegh. I've now forgotten what the next thing I was going to do was, but seeing as how 1.39 has come out in the two-ish months I've been "gone", I suppose there's still time.)

Thanks for the charts, Gaignun. That was rather informative. I concur that the only "debuff" Stone Gun probably needs is to lose its ability to be used with Shields. I've been saying that I don't understand why Guns--at least these rifle-type guns--can be used with Shields for a while, however, so that's not really surprising.

Similarly, while I also don't remember there being any (explicit) call for a "breaking gun", I can get behind making a Rainbow (Shell) Gun that is essentially still a healing gun for elemental absorption, even if that kinda steps on the now Nether Spellgun's toes. Was that was actually being proposed though? I'm a bit confused as with regards to that.

Ugh. I have so much to catch up on....

Since they were the last things that were discussed before Gaignun's charts and I'm still against dual element anything at present, I'll just say that I can get behind Dokurider's Spear suggestions...save for Mythril Spear perhaps. Ice is arguably already becoming the most screwed over element with the change to Coral Ring going in 1.39. Still, it could still work.... Really, I'm honestly probably more skeptical of the boost that new Obelisk might give, especially since Equip Polearms should be getting more usable going into 1.39.

Shrug.

I really don't remember the spears Gaignun posted at all, so I guess there's more I missed despite 71 being the last page I think I posted on.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Barren

I just noticed that in the spreadsheet scholars are allowed to equip daggers
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

November 28, 2013, 12:40:53 am #1462 Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 12:49:01 am by Gaignun
Random thought:

Crystal Shield: 30 P-EV, 0 M-EV, absorb Dark, weak Holy

Purpose: To give armoured units an easier way to absorb friendly Demi.

Balance: Armoured units can cover the Holy weakness with Chameleon Robe, whereas clothed units (i.e. Squires and Geomancers) will need to depend on Magic Ring or Small Mantle, neither of which suits these classes.  As a result, Crystal Shield is not expected to mingle with Black Costume to double the prevalence of Dark absorption on clothed units.  Armoured units can swap Chameleon Robe for armour to increase the effect of Demi healing at the cost of using the above-mentioned Magic Ring or Small Mantle, which also do not suit these classes, or simply living with the weakness.

Barren

That actually may work better then neutralizing elements because hardly anyone uses the crystal shield or if they did it was on undead armored units like paladins and lancers. But otherwise, the crystal shield was just used randomly. This would give it more appeal to dark and holy absorb teams
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

reinoe

Should stop be re-added to Nameless dance?  It's often touted as the most worthless of the dances.
My dreams can come true!

Barren

Maybe put don'tact or don't move so nameless dance can be somewhat more useful
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

reinoe

Quote from: Barren on December 25, 2013, 01:33:16 pm
Maybe put don'tact or don't move so nameless dance can be somewhat more useful


Don't move over Don't Act.  Don't act is really crippling.
My dreams can come true!

Otabo

So is Don't Move if it's used correctly.

Barren

I guess so if you're paranoid about jumping missing which rarely happens. I'm sure there are other methods of using don't move
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

formerdeathcorps

Nameless Dance is worthless because the dancer using it won't do anything else.  The culprit is slow (which has the same AI priority as haste, i.e. one tier less than scoring a KO), and probably should be replaced with don't move.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Malroth

well its worthless not because the AI sees it as "50% slow for the whole enemy team" but because every single status that can give a turn advantage has been ripped out of it.  Don't move added to the list is the bare minimum needed to make it usable but Don't Act or Charm would make it worth actually putting on a unit.

silentkaster

What about adding confusion and don't move and taking away oil for nameless dance? I agree that don't act is really crippling and proccing even 2 of these could really open up to the team to an onslaught. Don't move can also potentially cripple units, but more so when the Player or AI is specifically trying to inflict it. All of these statii are primarily going to be annoyances that slowly cripple a team if said team cant get to the dancer first and all are relatively easily curable, but if the statii stack, will put the said team in trouble.

You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Otabo

I personally wouldn't mind seeing ND add Don't Move. But Confuse? Please, no. Don't Act might make it a bit too strong though, but I suppose it would come down to how the AI uses it in the long run. If the problem with ND really IS slow, then yes something should be done about it.

Dokurider

Confusion is banned because of an game breaking AI quirk. The AI will ignore confused units, much like Death Sentence. Unlike Death Sentence, Confuse will never expire, and the AI will never move to break Confusion. So when there is one unit left and it's confused, the AI will never finish it off unless Confuse is broken. Hence why it was removed from Arena.

silentkaster

Oh goodness, sorry. I never even noticed it was banned! That does make a lot of sense though. It could potentially create an endless match if a bunch of defensive, self healing units couldn't one shot the confused unit.

So, what about poison and don't move? Again, a relatively easily curable status effect that doesnt do a ton in its own right, but could tear away if left unchecked.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Otabo

Highly doubt it'll get poison because of Wiznaibus which also inflicts poison at a small chance.

Barren

I like to bring up (even though I'm sure its been brought up before) positives and negatives of Cursed Rings. Its going to be a brief list since I don't usually type winded posts. So here we go:

Positives: Negates Holy. Absorbs Dark. Plus 1 stats on PA, MA and speed. Ways to block fire weakness i.e. Black Costume, Flame Shield, White Robe and Crystal Shield. Effective on melee units that are for DPS. Full heal with Death spell and Demi 1/2 healing since both are dark elemental. Always comes back. Can find ways to prevent other weaknesses though not everything. And finally can make for entertaining matches (see lightninghax firmly grasp it vs dokurider bomb squad).

Negatives: OU. Can be killed with potions and raise 1/2. Any fire attacks will hurt if weakness not covered. Petrified with seal evil, ancient sword or petrify spell from Oracle skillset. Can be stolen with steal accessory. Can be killed with consecration (though it rarely happens anymore). And finally can drag on matches or end quicker than you would desire.

So why am I bringing this up? Well to simply point out that Cursed Ring is too good of an accessory since its basically OU. hey ran rampant in the last tournament and people are still using Cursed Rings. I think it should be revamped somehow (unless people are happy the way cursed rings are of course). It was just something that I thought about for a long time and while I too am guilty of using a cursed ring team I can personally attest to the fact that while its good, it seems now getting old to the point where we've seen strategies using cursed ring before. Hopefully next release (whenever that will be) will have significant changes to Cursed Ring. I'm not saying don't use it ever but think if you really need to use Cursed Ring on your team
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Otabo

Quote from: Barren on January 23, 2014, 12:25:20 pm
I like to bring up (even though I'm sure its been brought up before) positives and negatives of Cursed Rings. Its going to be a brief list since I don't usually type winded posts. So here we go:

Positives: Negates Holy. Absorbs Dark. Plus 1 stats on PA, MA and speed. Ways to block fire weakness i.e. Black Costume, Flame Shield, White Robe and Crystal Shield. Effective on melee units that are for DPS. Full heal with Death spell and Demi 1/2 healing since both are dark elemental. Always comes back. Can find ways to prevent other weaknesses though not everything. And finally can make for entertaining matches (see lightninghax firmly grasp it vs dokurider bomb squad).

Negatives: OU. Can be killed with potions and raise 1/2. Any fire attacks will hurt if weakness not covered. Petrified with seal evil, ancient sword or petrify spell from Oracle skillset. Can be stolen with steal accessory. Can be killed with consecration (though it rarely happens anymore). And finally can drag on matches or end quicker than you would desire.

So why am I bringing this up? Well to simply point out that Cursed Ring is too good of an accessory since its basically OU. hey ran rampant in the last tournament and people are still using Cursed Rings. I think it should be revamped somehow (unless people are happy the way cursed rings are of course). It was just something that I thought about for a long time and while I too am guilty of using a cursed ring team I can personally attest to the fact that while its good, it seems now getting old to the point where we've seen strategies using cursed ring before. Hopefully next release (whenever that will be) will have significant changes to Cursed Ring. I'm not saying don't use it ever but think if you really need to use Cursed Ring on your team


I'm glad this is being brought up. I agree - Cursed Ring right now is a big problem that needs to be addressed. In my opinion, the problem with Cursed Ring is the fact that it has very little drawbacks to use it. Well, that plus Immune: Crystal and the fact that it comes with 6 other stats that help the unit. When used correctly with the right combination of equips and/or R/S/M, and if it's the right type of unit, the positives far outweigh the negatives. And when you add skills like Quickening to the equation and it gets even more powerful. Cursed Ring simply does not punish the player enough to use it. I, too, have teams that use Cursed Ring, and know how powerful it really is.

Compare it to Phoenix Blade. Phoenix Blade is similar to Cursed Ring. Yeah, it has auto-reraise, but Phoenix Blade isn't used nearly as much as Cursed Ring thanks to its auto-slow. The auto-slow alone hurts the unit for having it equipped, and as we should all know by now, slow is very powerful in Arena and no one wants a slowed unit in a match as it gives the other team a distinct advantage. Not to mention that only a few classes can use the Phoenix Blade (without having to use Equip Light Blade, anyway), and all of those classes (except Thief) are base 8 speed units. And if that wasn't crippling enough, the unit is also immune to Haste. Two devastating drawbacks for the Phoenix Blade's auto-reraise stat makes it balanced.

Cursed Ring, though? Useable by anyone. This includes thieves, which are probably one of the best users of Cursed Ring. What devastating side effect does it have? It has none. Auto-undead doesn't really count; sure you can get one-shotted by Raise 2, but you can build a team to work around that; drain the caster's MP, status him/her, kill him/her; there's plenty of ways. Weak: Fire sure as hell doesn't count; as you mentioned, plenty of ways to work around it very easily. So it might as well not be there period.

My point is, Cursed Ring doesn't have any drawbacks to using it. Auto-undead and Weak: Fire doesn't cut it for all the stats it gives. Either there needs to be a crippling drawback(s) to use it, ala Phoenix Blade, or it needs to lose Immune: Crystal. That's my two cents on the matter. The fact that it virtually has no drawbacks has made it a go-to accessory for some teams. There's a reason why I've said in the past the Cursed Ring is one of the dumbest things in Arena.




Dokurider

Actually, it's main drawbacks is that you're dead for 3 turns, which can cause a serious momentum loss. It's one of the reasons why I ended up dropping Curse Ring from Bomb Squad, not to mention you come back with a random amount of HP.

Still, I subscribe to the solution of taking away it's guaranteed revival after three turns. That way, it may revive after three turns, or maybe four, or five or even more. It should still be immune to crystal, because otherwise we'll be right back to where we started. Combined with taking away it's Cancel: Holy and +1 Speed and it should end up well balanced as well as lowering the speed of the overall metagame.

silentkaster

I was thinking about this...maybe a good way to balance it would be Always: Oil. I mean...most teams have some kind of elemental and you wouldn't have to take away dark or holy resistance. Fact is though...those teams with the cursed ring that don't give fire immunity or at least get rid of the weakness...their units go down fast to fire.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.