Final Fantasy Hacktics

Projects => Completed Mods => FFT Arena => Topic started by: Eternal on April 29, 2012, 04:20:29 am

Title: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on April 29, 2012, 04:20:29 am
WHEN POSTING ABOUT A MATCH, USE SPOILERS. FAILURE TO DO SO WILL RESULT IN A DELETED POST.

That aside, this thread is used to discuss the battles as they happen. Point things out, critique the teams, share what you enjoyed, etc. As mentioned above, please use spoiler tags so as not to spoil those who haven't seen the matches yet.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dacheat on April 29, 2012, 04:33:14 am
I'm excited! Even if I don't do well it's still fun to watch everyone compete. :D

Will there be a losers bracket or is this one and done?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dome on April 29, 2012, 04:34:51 am
Loser bracket = More fights / Work for the host/s
I'd like to see them, but not if the amount of work is painfully big
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dacheat on April 29, 2012, 04:39:50 am
Yeah I figured as much. I could maybe host some scrimmages over the summer, but not right now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 29, 2012, 08:02:51 am
And Best of luck to everyone who are in this tournament! Thank you everyone from FFHacktics who made the FFT Arena A.I. Season 1 tournament possible! :) We all love you (even dinosaur) XD
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: the frisky dingo on April 29, 2012, 08:04:07 am
If dinosaur loves me Barren, then he needs to do me a favor and act like a piece of bacon!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Vigilanti on April 29, 2012, 08:05:42 am
HAHA! Time for everyone to GET ON STATUS! I'm amp for this tournament, for real! Hope you all do good
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Avalanche on April 29, 2012, 08:40:54 am
Im happy the tournament start very soon, speaking of it: when will the first battles be recorded?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 29, 2012, 08:48:35 am
I'm not sure yet, we'll have to discuss it when the brackets are determined
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: skiploom188 on April 29, 2012, 09:54:13 am
Maybe I'll get some wins on my third try. Oh wait, this is just my second attempt. Uh oh.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 10:14:26 am
As it stands, 47 teams requires 17 first-round byes.  If we added one more late submission, 48 teams would only require 16 first-round byes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 29, 2012, 10:24:49 am
If we don't have a 48th player registered, then that would suggest several byes.

Plus we'll have to structure the tourney like way back when Season 3 came around

the bracket would look like this: http://challonge.com/tournament/bracket_generator?ref=LYVDBOPQLE
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dynablade on April 29, 2012, 10:30:13 am
If 47's all you got an having just another team in there would make it 48, how about some people come up with some random shit?
Unless you wanna go out and find a real 48th.

Whichever's easier, getting another guy or just plugging in a B team from someone else..
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dome on April 29, 2012, 10:38:47 am
Let's create a randomly-generated team!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 29, 2012, 10:41:07 am
my choice for a 48th player would be RavenOfRazgriz

his team: Y U SO DERP
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: AeroGP on April 29, 2012, 11:39:11 am
Just going to sabotage the whole tournament, eh? Sounds like fun. xD
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dynablade on April 29, 2012, 12:04:59 pm
Another idea:

The 48th team should be a team of champions: Four winners of the previous tournaments create their own unit to form a team. Perhaps to make it interesting (and fair? considering how well versed with Arena the winners are), that team would only have to be defeated ONCE for the other squad to win.

Dunno, just trying to think of something that doesn't require wading through Slow, Stop, Poison, Blind, Don't Act, Death Sentence and Silence..
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 12:18:13 pm
In theory, with 48 people, you only need 3 byes if you slightly change the order past the semi-final round.

Winner's Bracket:
Round 1
48 teams (24 winners, 24 to Round 1 Losers)
Round 2
24 teams (12 winners, 12 to Round 2 Losers)
Round 3
12 teams (6 winners, 6 to Round 3 Losers)
Round 4
6 teams (3 winners, 3 losers to Round 4 Losers)
Round 5
3 teams (1 bye to the team with the best overall Win / Loss, 1 winner, 1 Loser to Round 6 Losers)
Round 6:
1 + 1 = 2 teams (1 winner, 1 loser to Round 8 Losers)

Loser's Bracket:
Round 1
24 teams (12 winners, 12 eliminated)
Round 2
12 + 12 = 24 teams (12 winners, 12 eliminated)
Round 3
12 + 6 = 18 teams (9 winners, 9 eliminated)
Round 4
9 + 3 = 12 teams (6 winners, 6 eliminated)
Round 5
6 teams (3 winners, 3 eliminated)
Round 6
3 + 1 teams (2 winners, 2 eliminated)
Round 7
2 teams (1 winner, 1 eliminated)
Round 8
1 + 1 teams (1 winner, 1 eliminated)

Championship:
Best of 5
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dome on April 29, 2012, 12:23:19 pm
48th team should be a team made of 4 Master-Squires called
We are
Rebels
Plotting
Rebellion
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dol on April 29, 2012, 12:27:38 pm
Quote from: Dome on April 29, 2012, 10:38:47 am
Let's create a randomly-generated team!


I sent a RNG chosen team to CT5Holy the other day.  Name/Gender/Job/2nd/r/s/m all randomized.  It wont be strong, but I think they would be amusing to watch.

I'd still rather have the late submission team as the 48th though.

*Edit* Although there is a minimum of byes in this bracket format, a semifinal bye seems a bit much.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 12:59:32 pm
We're awarding ONE bye to the team that wins 4 matches with the minimal number of losses.  Recalling both S3-5, the ultimate champion was precisely that team.
The alternative is giving SIXTEEN byes while insisting that teams that are 1-1 should be matched with teams that are 0-1.  Experience from the past few seasons shows that many of the 0-1 teams have basic team errors.  In fact, only a handful of the teams starting out as 0-1 are actually good enough to make it to the Semifinals of the Losers' Bracket (much less any higher).
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: iamBQB on April 29, 2012, 01:15:49 pm
If you make round 5 of the winner's bracket a Round Robin and send the two losers to Round 5 for the loser's bracket you'd be able to run the whole thing with no byes and only 2 extra matches.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on April 29, 2012, 02:17:02 pm
(As soon as I saw Eternal put this up, I started wondering how much it would get filled before the tournament gets started....)

If "we" need an 48th team, then can't "we" just use a slightly modified version of whatever the team of that one the last (and only?) ARENA tournament was? I mean, I'm all for letting someone else join late, especially considering how much I procrastinated/wasn't taking it seriously, but "we" can only wait so long before the delay starts to become detrimental.

However, I kinda agree with Dol that a semifinal bye, at least one that's planned out from the get-go, is rather...excessive even given to the team with a minimal number of losses. I'll admit that it unfortunately might be the best option to go with, though.

Quote from: Barren on April 29, 2012, 10:41:07 am
my choice for a 48th player would be RavenOfRazgriz

his team: Y U SO DERP


Such self-hatred on your part, Barren.

Then again, having a team more boring than my own would make me look less like an asshole, even if Raven's is doubtless better made ultimately.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 29, 2012, 02:20:36 pm
I have 44 teams on the spreadsheet. Some of the people who reserved slots didn't send teams in.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 29, 2012, 02:21:32 pm
Quote from: CT5Holy on April 29, 2012, 02:20:36 pm
I have 44 teams on the spreadsheet. Some of the people who reserved slots didn't send teams in.


Did you send them PMs alerting them that they have until tonight to submit their teams?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 29, 2012, 03:00:00 pm
Ok, I've given them an extra 18 hours. Hopefully we can get 48.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Pierce on April 29, 2012, 03:26:57 pm
Quote from: iamBQB on April 29, 2012, 01:15:49 pm
If you make round 5 of the winner's bracket a Round Robin and send the two losers to Round 5 for the loser's bracket you'd be able to run the whole thing with no byes and only 2 extra matches.

Personally I'm all for this idea. 16 byes in the first round seems a little iffy, being that it would mean a third of the competitors are eliminated that quickly. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Xeno on April 29, 2012, 04:51:01 pm
Quote from: Pierce on April 29, 2012, 03:26:57 pm
Personally I'm all for this idea. 16 byes in the first round seems a little iffy, being that it would mean a third of the competitors are eliminated that quickly. Just my two cents.

I second that.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 05:43:23 pm
Challonge's bracket distribution is competent.  This is an application that generates brackets for real tournaments (as in tournaments that people pay money to set up and host).  It doesn't matter how uneven the number of entries are; the bracket gets balanced out leading up to the championship, meaning that there are no byes at semi-finals, quarter-finals, and so on.  The creation of dummy teams isn't necessary.

Byes in the early rounds are perfectly acceptable.  The idea is to seed the stronger players so that those who don't get byes have at least one match in which to stand a chance of winning.  This is not unfair to the weaker teams that turn out to be strong, as they'll win their first match without problem and proceed to the second set where the seeded players are.  As we haven't done pools, we do not know exactly which teams are strong, but we can go by past results.  For example, I'm aware that fdc puts a lot of time into team design.  We would seed him so that he doesn't crush the dreams of an ill-conceived team in the first set.  The team's dreams can be broken after it wins its first set and meets him in the second, but then it will at least have been able to enjoy a minimum of three matches (two in winner's bracket, and one in loser's) as opposed to two, which I believe is what really matters.

Byes are common.  A national fighting game tournament held just over this weekend gave a reigning champion a bye all the way to the semi-finals so he wouldn't destroy the competition.

The past results we'd go by is season 5.  This would mean that newcomers won't be seeded, as their teams are yet unproven.  This is a cruel reality, but a better one than letting the veterans thrash them in the first set.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 29, 2012, 06:39:53 pm
Just to let everyone know the link I provided earlier was only an sample bracket, its not legit so no worries. Gaignun and I agreed that the bracket will be divided between veterans and novices/moderate Arena players so that way everyone can have a fair fight.

Hopefully in time we can get the actual bracket up and we can then determine which hosts will call what matches
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 29, 2012, 06:43:10 pm
I like the Round Robin idea.

Also, I'm very excited to finally be participating in one of these. I've been watching the videos on Youtube for years, but never really kept a close enough watch on Hacktics to catch a chance to join in on the fun.

Best of luck to everyone! =D
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dynablade on April 29, 2012, 08:28:20 pm
Byes are very very common in fighting games.

In fact, depending on how many other tournaments you place well at, you can get a bye all the way to Top 32 at EVO, widely considered to be the largest fighting game tournament in the world.

So yeah getting 16-17 people a bye in the first round is no problem, just as long as the scrubs (read: me) don't get thrown into the lion's den early.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on April 29, 2012, 09:16:42 pm
QuoteThe past results we'd go by is season 5.  This would mean that newcomers won't be seeded, as their teams are yet unproven.  This is a cruel reality, but a better one than letting the veterans thrash them in the first set.


Completely disagree there. To me, that is saying we will seed people for SCII using the data from BW or SCI. Although similar in the very core, they have completely different metagames and balancing issues and different people will thrive in different metagames. IMO, either we seed using how player teams have been successful in the battles of the past few months, or we don't seed at all. Season 5 was using a completely different ruleset and a different patch, and Arena beta tourney was a clusterfuck and the game has changed a huge amount since then.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fanatic on April 29, 2012, 09:44:30 pm
Seeding... will probably be a clusterfuck no matter how it is done. Seeding by the amount of time spent around Arena might get you the closest, but by no means is it definitely fair. Veteran users might scrap together a quick, untested team while newbies might craft their first team as a modification of an already tested and proven team. Either way, you'll get a team that performs differently than what you would expect in that circumstance.

My suggestion would be to just run the first round of the winners bracket entirely random, regardless of how you set up the byes. On the other hand, I would make an effort to pair up the initial loser battles based on 1) whether the loser forced a third round or not in the first match and 2) how long or how close the match was. That way, you could pair struggling teams off against each other in the first losers round, after we all have had a chance to see them in action.

Ultimately, a struggling team will have to face off against a superior team at some point. Rather than try to anticipate this early, I would wait until I had seen each team in action to better judge it's capabilities.

But hell, it ain't my call. Whatever the plan ends up being, I will back it 100% - We're all here to have fun anyway!

EDIT: You know, on that note, you could just post all the teams before the brackets are set and then hold a giant voting session for the teams strength (you know - scale of 1 to 10, average out the votes, etc) and then create brackets based on the results. It'd be a bit of a hassle, but that would probably be the closest thing to a "fair" (note - I do not say "true," merely "fair") assessment of the strength of each team.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 29, 2012, 10:03:26 pm
I must apologise, then, as I haven't been keeping track of who has been successful in the practise battles.  Going through months of practise battles will set this tournament back by several days.  The number of entrants isn't equal to a power of two, so there must be seeds whether we like it or not.  Either somebody invests hours formulating some way of sorting seeds through a disorganised thread of practise battles, or we use what we can to get the tournament going.  We need to be sensitive to our hosts schedules, too.  Wiz, in particular, told me that he'd like to get through his matches quickly because he's got work.

We might very well not be able to achieve what seeding is meant to do, but seeding with a potentially bogus list will be no worse than seeding at random.

Quote from: FanaticOn the other hand, I would make an effort to pair up the initial loser battles based on 1) whether the loser forced a third round or not in the first match and 2) how long or how close the match was. That way, you could pair struggling teams off against each other in the first losers round, after we all have had a chance to see them in action.


I understand where you're coming from, Fanatic, but loser's brackets are structured to minimise scenarios where teams lose to the same team twice (once in the winner's, then again in the loser's).  Restructuring it will only increase the odds of this occuring.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dacheat on April 29, 2012, 10:11:03 pm
I think we either need to make it random or give the vets the benefit of the doubt in terms of seeding and move on.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on April 29, 2012, 10:33:19 pm
Heh, what's the bet we will spend more time sitting and debating like a bunch of politicians instead of actually running the tournament?

Anyway, fdc's idea is sound except for the round robin, and I've already stated that to him. I absolutely hate arbitrary rulings to work out who advances if a draw happens. He originally suggested time spent to win, which would disadvantage defensive teams. Then he suggested using no. of units crystalled. But I still see it as a pretty horrible idea overall.

The problem is that 47 is a horrible number. The best idea I've got is to open submissions for 1 more team(first come, first served) and run Swiss for 8 groups of 6. knock out the bottom 16, and then run single elim for the rest of them. That or run with the 47 disregarding fairness....

Either way, this is going to be a clusterfuck.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dacheat on April 29, 2012, 10:35:01 pm
Quote from: FFMaster on April 29, 2012, 10:33:19 pmI absolutely hate arbitrary rulings to work out who advances if a draw happens. He originally suggested time spent to win, which would disadvantage defensive teams. Then he suggested using no. of units crystalled. But I still see it as a pretty horrible idea overall.


Why not just call it a draw and replay the game (not the match)?

EDIT: Forgot a word. Derp.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on April 29, 2012, 10:38:29 pm
I don't like the thought of determining based on old tournaments. This is season one of something totally new- a clean slate. The only fair way is to generate a totally random bracket. Whoever gets byes- get byes, whoever doesn't- doesn't. Should this happen again in Season Two, we can use Season One's results to determine byes.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on April 29, 2012, 10:44:34 pm
Random is good.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 29, 2012, 10:45:54 pm
Quote from: Eternal248 on April 29, 2012, 10:38:29 pm
I don't like the thought of determining based on old tournaments. This is season one of something totally new- a clean slate. The only fair way is to generate a totally random bracket. Whoever gets byes- get byes, whoever doesn't- doesn't. Should this happen again in Season Two, we can use Season One's results to determine byes.


Sounds fair enough to me. Most of FFT is down to RNG anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 10:47:09 pm
1) WE have no reasonable seeding system.  We can't use S5 because this is a different patch.  WE can't use the results of the last 2-3 months because players like me, CT5Holy, and Raven have been mostly inactive.  We can't always use the power behind someone's name because veterans sometimes make bad teams (see CT5Holy's and PX's teams from last year).  And unlike real life tournaments for money, the mystery factor of newcomers (like Gaignun in S5) is much greater because all the teams are completely unknown until the moment of release (meaning that you can't really base anything on a person's past performance).

2) You are right in saying that given a non-power of 2, seeding is a must.  However, seeding is only fair if you have information to base a team's seed on.  As Point #1 shows, the only good evidence we have is the performance in the actual tournament itself.  Thus, a semifinal round bye is probably the most accurate possible bye.  In my opinion, that counterbalances any problem of potentially affecting the match results.  Of course, if we do a round robin for the final 3 Winner's Bracket teams, we wouldn't need a bye.

3) Lastly, another basic principle of the loser's bracket is to have teams with identical match win/loss records face each other (for as long as this can be possibly maintained).  The 16+ loser's bracket bye fails this because you pair teams with a record of 0-1 with teams with a record of 1-1 in the first round of the loser's bracket.  Every year in the AI tournaments, there are always teams that contain basic errors.  Considering that Arena is more new to most people (mechanically) compared to both vanilla and 1.3, we'll likely see an accentuation of this effect.  This means instead of a normal distribution, we'll probably have a significant number of really bad teams from people who don't understand the mechanics (with power near 0%) paired with the majority of functional teams (with a normally distributed set of power averaging at around 65%).  This implies that it's probably not a good idea to group teams that are 0-1 with 1-1 simply for the sake of mathematical expediency.

Thus, I favor the addition of 1 dummy team to give us 48 teams (in which we can run the above system, but with a round robin for the three finalists in the Winner's Bracket).  For those of you who find dummy teams distasteful, realize that they have existed in every previous season.  Just in S5 alone, we had Squidgy make two teams, Mando make two teams, and someone submit Kagebunji's team for him.  Besides the obvious fun involved, it was also done to ensure we would have enough participants.

Proposed Rules of the Round Robin of 3:
If a team wins 2 matches, they will advance.
If each team wins 1 match each, the team with the best overall win/loss record in the round robin will advance.
If that too is a tie, we should judge how "close" a match was.  The fairest way I can think of is to create a point system where teams are rewarded for the number of units left alive at the end of any match during the round robin.  This is fair in that it rewards how efficiently a team can win, either by defensively outlasting someone or offensively overpowering them.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Gaignun on April 30, 2012, 12:00:54 am
Quote from: formerdeathcorps on April 29, 2012, 10:47:09 pm
1) WE have no reasonable seeding system.  We can't use S5 because this is a different patch.  WE can't use the results of the last 2-3 months because players like me, CT5Holy, and Raven have been mostly inactive.  We can't always use the power behind someone's name because veterans sometimes make bad teams (see CT5Holy's and PX's teams from last year).  And unlike real life tournaments for money, the mystery factor of newcomers (like yourself in S5) is much greater because all the teams are completely unknown until the moment of release (meaning that you can't really base anything on a person's past performance).


We can't seed at any time by that rationale.  Veterans can make bad teams, veterans can have bad days, rookies can turn out strong, and so on.  These are known as upsets, and they happen all the time.  Entrants of S5 didn't know the other teams when submitting their own, either.  This is part of the challenge: building a team that is strong on as many fronts as possible.  That we are using a different patch adds to this challenge.  You're saying that the S5 results are of no worth in judging an entrant's ability to rise up to it.  I think you need to give the past entrants more credit.  If I teach two people the game of Go, a chess grandmaster and a complete stranger, then pit the two against each other and bet on a victor, I'm going to put my money on the grandmaster.  It's her first game, but she has demonstrated her ability to play games out in her mind before making moves.  That she's applying a faculty developed in one game to a similar one strengthens my faith in her.  I could be completely wrong on my bet.  This stranger could be a savant, but as I have never seen him play, I have no reason to think he is.  I appeal to probability when placing my bet.  This is the seeding I'm arguing for.  Sure, there will be greater variability, but that is inevitable, as this is the first tournament of its kind.  Again, using the results of a different game to seed the present one can be no worse than seeding at random.

If this current tournament is about arm wrestling, then, yes, the results of S5 would be worthless in determining seeds, because arm wrestling and playing FFT have nothing in common.  Arena and 1.3, however, do.

Quote3) Lastly, another basic principle of the loser's bracket is to have teams with identical match win/loss records face each other (for as long as this can be possibly maintained).  The 16+ loser's bracket bye fails this because you pair teams with a record of 0-1 with teams with a record of 1-1 in the first round of the loser's bracket.  Every year in the AI tournaments, there are always teams that contain basic errors.  Considering that Arena is more new to most people (mechanically) compared to both vanilla and 1.3, we'll likely see an accentuation of this effect.  This means instead of a normal distribution, we'll probably have a significant number of really bad teams from people who don't understand the mechanics (with power near 0%) paired with the majority of functional teams (with a normally distributed set of power averaging at around 65%).  This implies that it's probably not a good idea to group teams that are 0-1 with 1-1 simply for the sake of mathematical expediency.


All populations are normal distributions.  What changes is the variability, which I am not denying will be high.  If the majority of teams are ill-conceived, then the distribution's mean will simply be shifted to a lower value.

I'm not sure where you're going with the win/loss ratio argument, unfortunately, as the loser's bracket never guarantees that people with identical win-loss records are paired, even if there are no seeds.  The single difference with seeds is that this mismatch appears in the first set.  I don't see who this is unfair to.  If you are seeded and lose your first two matches, you were a bad seed.  This falls within the realm of prediction. 

QuoteProposed Rules of the Round Robin of 3:
If a team wins 2 matches, they will advance.
If each team wins 1 match each, the team with the best overall win/loss record in the round robin will advance.
If that too is a tie, we should judge how "close" a match was.  The fairest way I is to create a point system where teams gain points by the difference for each unit they have alive at the end of any match during the round robin.  This is fair in that it rewards how efficiently a team can win, either by defensively outlasting someone or offensively overpowering them.


This possibility of having to arbitrate how close a match was is precisely why round robin isn't used in double-elimination format. 
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 30, 2012, 01:32:35 am
There are currently 45 teams. Just throwing that out there. Some more teams might pop up in the next 8 hours. We'll see.

As for the current discussion, the only strong opinion I have is that we get this going relatively soon. In other words, let's not use Fanatic's idea of polling to see which teams are strong for seeds, because that will take forever, and at least for me, it's hard to see how strong a team will be on paper.

EDIT: 46 teams now.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on April 30, 2012, 01:34:03 am
If you guys don't decide on something by the time all the teams are in, I'm going to use my super amazing uber admin powers to declare that the seeding will be random.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dome on April 30, 2012, 03:32:58 am
MASTER SQUIRES TEAM TO FILL THE GAP!!!!!1
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fanatic on April 30, 2012, 11:50:30 am
Like I said, I will support any solution that gets us playing. Even authoritarian decree. Damn I'm excited about this!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: CT5Holy on April 30, 2012, 01:34:26 pm
Still only 46 teams. If we put in Raven's Y U SO DERP and Dol's RNG team, that's 48. Or we could keep waiting for more teams, or... any other ideas?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on April 30, 2012, 01:56:29 pm
Maybe if no one submits a late entry but tonight then I would say add Raven's team and Dol's random team to make 48
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 30, 2012, 02:34:29 pm
To who's God must I pay tribute in order to avoid a potential match against Y U SO DERP?
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fanatic on April 30, 2012, 02:43:37 pm
We of the Super Tactists believe that if you offer goats to the almighty RNG, she will bless you with many reaction triggers, status hits, and critical hits. I'm sure if you offer enough goats, she might even give you a favorable bracket.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on April 30, 2012, 03:02:47 pm
I was gonna offer the Germonik Scriptures, Alma, All 13 Holy Stones, the dead body of Thunder God Cid, and Balmafula's tongue, but goats sounds a lot easier.

Now, where did I put my sacrificial dagger? ...
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dacheat on April 30, 2012, 03:29:48 pm
Quote from: Fanatic on April 30, 2012, 11:50:30 am
Like I said, I will support any solution that gets us playing. Even authoritarian decree. Damn I'm excited about this!


Definitely this. I vote for whatever gets us playing the quickest.

Also, everyone knows that Ana from Fire Emblem is the RNG goddess.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: jansported on May 01, 2012, 01:59:48 am
I'm super late on this guys, sorry I haven't had much time to be around lately. Mass byes wth random seeding is a terrible idea (aka a 46 team bracket) however, I'm really concerned about "dummy teams."
If these teams are so bad they can't win then it's basically a bye, but if they're good enough to win and DO win wouldn't that cause a problem as well? :P Oh well, since this is season one it's not going to matter much what you do, but next season I definitely agree with seeding based on this season's results.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on May 01, 2012, 06:03:37 am
So guys, thoughts on who'll win/get far? Remember that you can discuss the teams. :P
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: jansported on May 01, 2012, 06:07:46 am
I will win of course. Wogdog the tief is too buff.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Ryason55 on May 01, 2012, 06:34:48 am
Let's see... vs Xeno... Well, guess I'll give my first impressions on the team before I go run several test matches to see if I'm actually screwed or not.

Cutthroat:
Looks to be set up to attempt to get more turns than the opponent to get off both a Greased Bolt and shot with the Blaze Gun. Speed-oriented equips, Speed Save, Quickening... yeah.
While that seems to be his intended function, he also has some standard Thiefing skills, which might turn his attention away from burning things. I guess he'll likely turn to those if he can't get kill shots.

Nix:
Compliments Cutthroat. Both Nameless Dance with Slow proc, and Last Dance with CT00 chance would give Cutthroat more turns to wreak havok on the enemy. Also some Monk skills to act as support, and if the enemies get too close.
Thing is though, I don't believe Last Dance will ever be used. It has a CT of 10; she'll likely get another turn before it goes off after starting it the previous turn, and would probably even cancel it with another thing. Also those Monk skills likely would distract her from dancing. Considering her main thing is keeping the heat on the entire enemy team; having her suddenly switch to reviving that one ally gives enemies a chance to recouperate.

Xin:
The White Mage. Also Holy.
Cutthroat would benefit greatly from getting hasted from Masamune on turn 1... however, he's faster than everyone else on the team, so he's way out of range by the time Xin gets her first turn.

Plato:
Stands in place and casts Thunder Flare until the end of time. Seeing as the entire team absorbs Lightning, she slightly heals allies and herself, while damaging enemies. Also Item skill so she can sustain herself while her allies are busy at the front line. I like how she doesn't have Soft, Maiden's Kiss, and Pheonix Down... for obvious reasons.
Now, thing about Thunder Flare and similar moves is that they don't do too great for damage... and can trigger reactions. Main offenders being Auto Potion and (I believe) HP Restore. So, dealing under 80 damage to an Auto Potion unit, or putting an HP Restore unit into critical... well, possible net gain for the target. Good for knocking out low-HP units though.



Anyways, off to do that testing to see whether or not I'm completely wrong in every regard or not... and also that one other thing about whether I'm screwed or not.
Oh, and good luck in our upcoming match, Xeno!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Xeno on May 01, 2012, 09:56:09 am
I'm new so thanks for the break down, that put some things in perspective for me lol, and GG to you as well.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 01, 2012, 01:48:36 pm
Veterans right from the start. fattyzilla in the beginning and then, if I get to Round 2, Wiz. I remember fattyzilla's name from as far back as S2, so I'm concerned that their might be some design elements that I'm not grasping on paper. I kind of want to run tests, but I also kind of want to just watch it happen when it happens.

On paper though, I think I can take my first match. Four armored units could cause a bit of trouble. Although I see one Paladin that's a walking target at 70/70 with a Cross Helmet and a Light Robe, notably with innate Regen and Move-HP Up to balance it. I'm seeing quite a bit of tanking, but not a great deal of offense. The Poison Bows could draw some of my units off-task for status healing. It looks like it's going to be a lengthy match and my team is usually at their best in long matches. Cheer Song, Battle Song, and PA/MA Save could be troublesome. I worry most about Cheer Song. I don't see MA Save doing much for the Bard and Paladin, as the strength of their skills isn't MA-based. The PA Save armored Crossbow units will surely cause the most trouble. Add Cheer Song and Battle Song to that, and you've got my team in a bit of trouble. Ultimately though, everyone's got mid-to-high Faith, making them easy prey for my Short Charged Holy and Blast Gun. The Bard will probably use Steal Heart more often than his songs, which could cause trouble, but is RNG dependent and up against Esuna and Stigma Magic. A long match tends to favor me with all four equipment breaks at 8 range, MP Healing, and a PA Save Lancer. The greatest threats to me are PA Save on the other side, and the success rate of Steal Heart, though with all Serpentarius, it's surely a 53% chance every time. For the most part, it will come down to the RNG (as always), but I'm optimistic about my chances in Round 1.

Wiz's team looks a bit more dangerous. They're very solid (reminiscent of Raven's Y U SO DERP, in some ways). With H Bag, Move-HP Up, Setiemson, Defense Up, Brigandine and 40/40 Fury/Faith all working in beautiful Harmony, plus Thief Hat for Speed. Insult and Kiyomori could do a bit of damage if the AI makes good use of them. For the Thieves, Auto-Potion, Unyielding, Black Costume, and 40/40 make a great combo. The Golden Hairpin is an interesting choice. I suppose they need the MP for Quickening, though it will be interesting to see if the AI priorities allow them to spam it or not; I've seen it go both ways. Them being the support units though, I don't think Quickening will see very heavy use, which makes the golden Hairpin unnecessarily squishy. Hidden Knife, Quickening, and an innate 10 speed compliment each other nicely. Hidden Knife also deals concentrated damage, so my evasion is neutralized. I'm not seeing a great deal of offensive power here. Although with 40/40, innate Shell/Defense Up, Unyielding, innate Regen, and Auto-Potion, they won't be taking much damage either. If they blind my Lancer and Berserk my mages, I'll be in trouble. Ultimately, if I make it to Round 2, I think it's going to be a long back and forth match.

Oh, I'm an arrogant bastard, aren't I? Perhaps I over-estimate my team's abilities.

At any rate, I'm super excited. Even if I get my ass kicked in 30 seconds, it'll still be a fun time.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dacheat on May 01, 2012, 02:34:48 pm
My assessment: Everyone's team sucks except for mine. Total victory is assured. The only way that I'll even drop a game is if the AI screws me over. :P

/totally serious analysis
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Wiz on May 01, 2012, 09:03:51 pm
Quote from: Fantactic1316 on May 01, 2012, 01:48:36 pm
I kind of want to run tests, but I also kind of want to just watch it happen when it happens.


Don't, it spoils matchups.

And assuming you do make it to R2 Fantactic, you're fucked. Your team's garbage compared to mine :D

Have a nice day in the Loser's Bracket after I beat you \o
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 01, 2012, 09:49:43 pm
Sorry Wiz, but twin Chemists are scarier than your team. You'll probably do well in the Netherworld though.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: CupOfOrangeJuice on May 01, 2012, 10:05:37 pm
You still have to get through me first Fanatic :3
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 01, 2012, 11:26:48 pm
I'll kill you all, blow your brains out through Uranus, liquefy your souls to pour on my morning cereal, and banish your physical bodies into a dark oblivion!!!

Either that...or the exact opposite of that. I forget which.  :roll:
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Barren on May 01, 2012, 11:35:08 pm
Such competition I love it!!!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Reks on May 01, 2012, 11:37:13 pm
It's not just competition, it's outright anarchy.








Gah, headache...
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on May 02, 2012, 09:08:05 am
I was impressed with how long Tai held on. Berserk was the clincher though. Good try, Taichii!


Such heavy hitting magic. I was proud! ;_;
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 02, 2012, 09:34:20 am

A fellow RPer has fallen.  What do you do?
[ ] Cry
[ ] Don't Care
[ ] Laugh
[X] Swear Vengeance

All kidding aside, Taichii and ST4R both did a reasonable job considering how badly synchronized both of their teams were.  That second round win at Mandalia proves why mad science is a bad idea.  As for Lief, his (lack of) damage output will hurt him in the matches to come.  They aren't going to get easier from here.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Taichii on May 02, 2012, 01:29:32 pm

Eternal, Even though i lost... i really became happy... cause i met what i promised XD
Its either win or make them wait a little longer~! XD HAHAHA
FDC hohoo thanks :D anyway.. i hope we get to continue our fft arena lessons , master XD i'll try better in the next season :D
lief1991.. goodgame XD i was kinda hoping that i would get the upperhand since my first battle, my opponent is already petrified with stone gun so 4v3 but your chemist was pretty quick XD and the map range advantage at zeklaus dessert too haha .. anyways goodluck on your upcoming matches XD


yey mucus i hope we get to fight at the tournament though XD
anyway.. i wish a fellow rp'er wins the tournament >:D
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: mucus on May 02, 2012, 01:36:52 pm

Oh no! Taichii's didn't get in sync!  It was just a matter of whom could wear the other team out first!
Good Job Leif!
Better luck next time Taichi!!


Boo yeah!  Did you see that?  Frogs dropping everywhere! 
St4r?! Where was the healing?  A revive or an esuna woulda done wonders!
It was bad when my team didn't sync up... once those mad sciences start dropping, you know it's over >_<
Thanks for the awesome fight!
I feel really good about my entry to the arena!
Thanks everyone who has made it possible!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dinosaur on May 02, 2012, 02:39:41 pm
Pleas please please, name your spoilers to which battle you are referring too!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fanatic on May 02, 2012, 02:57:11 pm
I had some time, so I did a analysis last night of how I think my first match will go. Now to watch the first matches...


I assume that as a Mod 1 attack, Talk Skill is not subject to Fury or Faith. Please correct me if I'm wrong. That said...

First off, Pride: Awesome naming scheme. It makes this match epic.

My Team:
Each of Pride's team members is subject to a 56% Mimic Daravon from my two Samurai. This is my team's primary offensive ability (hence the Chemist's Chantage over Angel Ring)

Speed wise, my player one spot works against me: Pride's Thief will be able to mid charge my ninja's slow 2. But since we're both males, I don't have to worry about steal heart. Due to us both having low brave, his mid charge daggers ought to do about 29 hps a hit = hardly fatal, even with Climhazard.

On the other hand, my ninja, with his shortcharge, 7 space teleport and 4 range Slow 2 will likely be able to cast it on the starting area before his other two units have even got their first turn (tick 12), but after the initial haste from Mediator. Point to me there.

Incidentally, the chance of slow 2 (and stop) hitting is:
Mediator: 88% (54%)
Priest: 80% (51%) Damn you Ice Shield
Dancer: 88% (54%)
Thief: 88%. (54%)

No immunities. I REALLY hope the Ninja opens with slow 2. He sometimes opens with stop though (Tick 13). Bad Ninja. I think it will depend on whether Mediator uses Masamune on those 8 speed units.

Low Brave across the board, and defense up, means my team is going to be on status mode full time, including the Samurai. I pity the host on this one.

Samurai's attack damage by target (sleeping) is:
Mediator: 141 (212)
Priest: 226  (340)
Dancer: 170 (255)
Thief: 226 (340)

Evasion will play a huge factor in how well I do. That priest is packing a shield and a mantle. I foresee many misses on her. But if she's sleeping, its a OHKO. Same with Thief.

Dancer is going to problematic. Stigma Magic is going to undue my sleep, and I fear that due to low damage projections, I'm not going to KO the dancer anytime soon. I guess I need to count on hitting her first with the Mimic Daravons. If I get her, I'm pretty sure my Ninja can neutralize Priest.

Pride's team:
Mediator will spam Kiyomori mostly, saving Blackmail for when he's out of range or needs a mid charge - but note, that only applies to Raise 2 from my Chemist. My Samurai will counter with Masamune. Many wasted actions I see. Point to Pride.

Priest:
Holy will hit the Samurai for 211 a pop. Ninja gets by with only 191, and Chemist is immune. As for paralyze, Ninja is immune (hence Rubber Shoes), But Samurais will get hit at 77% (ouch) and chemist at 62%. I had to drop bandage for fear of Petrify, and Pride might make me pay dearly for that. If Priest gets hasted, she'll go before my two Samurai, and hopefully she'll charge holy on the Ninja. And if I'm lucky, I'll have a shot at Mimic Daravon, or even refute, to block her. If the battle goes on long enough, my ninja might hit her for a silence proc. That would be sweet.

Dancer:
Death Sentence is a doubled edged sword. I have no protection, but sleep is a worse than a OHKO in many respects. We'll se how this plays out. Wiznaibus might actually end up healing the Ninja.

Thief:
Steal heart... oh how I hate it. I need to hit Pride hard enough to knock his Thief into sandbag mode early. If charm hits early, I'm in trouble. The only reason I don't use charm based teams is because of how luck based it is. You get lucky, you win big, and there is very little your opponent can do. You get a little unlucky, and you've got a unit that basically does NOTHING, and it's as if you were outnumbered from the get go.

Overall: The tone of this match will be set from the get go. I have far more raw damage than Pride (which I believe will be decisive in a long game), but he has greater status potential with both DA and Charm. If one or the other of us hits earlier with status effects, the match will end early. Otherwise, I predict each round will be 10 minutes or more.

MAPS:
Assuming I'm battle 24... I like windmill shed. MD all around. This will be a quick fight, especially if MD misses and Pride counters with Paralyze. Poeskas lake? Not so much. Paralyze will gain some power on that map, but Ignore Height will help. Peak is a clusterfuck for me. One of my Samurai will probably spend the match idling out of range, but at least the Ninja and the Other Samurai will be able to take high ground quickly. I think we might both we well suited for the maps.

Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Dynablade on May 02, 2012, 02:59:27 pm
Ninjutsu and a 250+ damage guaranteed gunshot is brutal on anyone. Cement their deaths by insulting the healer and/or separating the healer from the Samurai and you get this.


Frog, goddamn. Small maps are amazing for Mucus' squad, especially if the enemy can only advance on their first turn. But I happen to be a collector of Petrified Frogs, so this was a gold star battle. But even one Frog would have ended either battle really quickly, considering that Star has no way to cure status. With so many people running at least one type of status effect (and most of them, several types), curing status is huge.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Eternal on May 02, 2012, 04:37:02 pm
Wish there had been some more Zodiac action, but your mages hit very hard. Good job! :D
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Havermayer on May 02, 2012, 04:57:39 pm
I kind of half-assed my team. I wouldn't have done it if my little bro hadn't pushed me. I aimed at long range crossbow and bow units. I just um, like that. But I fully expect to go down hard.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: dacheat on May 02, 2012, 05:14:54 pm
Quote from: Eternal248 on May 02, 2012, 04:37:02 pm
Wish there had been some more Zodiac action, but your mages hit very hard. Good job! :D



Round 1: Wat.
Round 2: Scary Zodiac is scary.

Good games Eternal. If I hadn't gotten those Summoners so quickly I would have been in big trouble.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: st4rw4k3r on May 02, 2012, 08:11:15 pm

Hahaha
Sadly I forgot all about arena until the day after the entry date so I pulled some random team out of the blue by clicking random things in gaignun's spreadsheet :P

May Vengeance be swift and enjoyable



Great Fight!
I Liked the Frog thing you had going there.
And I do not know why my priest was not healing. I'm quite disappointed about that, since its going to give RoR a reason to continue making fun of my healers >.>

Goodluck in the rest of the tourny!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: Fantactic1316 on May 02, 2012, 09:22:14 pm

I really liked the Mime team. Saw them on the list and immediately spotted Asura and Summon as good choices for Mimic. I've been playing with Mimes a bit too and it's a lot of work trying to make units that work well with them. Shame to see them go down so quick. I hope they do well in the Netherworld. I'm always intrigued by a good Mime team.



Romanda Gun + Equipment Breaks = Run as far as you like, you'll never escape. Now to try to fight at your base HP! Love it!
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on May 03, 2012, 12:38:40 am
(Thanks for the speed of this, Barren.)

[Insert my usual comment about not burning yourself out doing this here.]

Not much to say despite how long the match ended up being except that Ninjutsu doing that much damage, especially to a unit with that much Faith, is rather disgusting. I assume there has to be something to that power beyond "just" Innocent. The same goes for Stone Gun, though at least it's somewhat refreshing to see people use that again as opposed the other "magical" unavoidable moves. That's kind sad in and of itself.


I feel like an idiot for not noticing the Dragon Whisker Two-Hand. Even though it was totally st4rw4k3r's fault for not doing it himself and even though I felt like mucus was going to win from the beginning, I can't help but feel that going with that Javelin kinda screwed him over even though he arguably won the second round because of it. Meh.


Despite being surprised about how Mimes are being used in this tournament, I honestly expected Eternal's team to do a bit better. I'm sure the Mimes having Move 5 didn't exactly help matters?


As I said on Youtube, this is easily the match I like the most so far, even as...annoying as it is to see Stigma Magic back to being AoE 1 again; that still seem extremely unnecessary, but whatever.

Nice to see Comet, Zombie, Climhazard and the various breaks used to such effectiveness.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: formerdeathcorps on May 03, 2012, 01:11:15 am

I know I can't share your tastes, but are you trying to say that the only enjoyable match is one where 1HKO/2HKOs do not occur?
Back to ninjitsu, are you saying that the only "fair" mechanics are those that have Br/Fa hard-counters?  We tried that back when 40 faith was actually reducing magic by 60% (and 70 faith reducing ninjitsu by 70%), it simply caused only two types of teams to predominate: heavy tanking and faith/innocent spammer because the variance on spell damage was ridiculously high.  However, because of the multiplicative nature of the damage formulas [and because X^2 > (X-Y)(X+Y)], it still favored tanking a bit too much.  All the while, status oriented teams were getting completely walled off by very low hit rates against 40 faith.  If someone invests an entire setup to optimizing ninjitsu, it should only be fair that your units need equal devotion to block it.
As for stigma magic and chakra, they are well balanced with esuna and cure because they trade range for speed.  With innate martial arts removed and the formulas changed, Monk as a class is balanced despite their high stats because of their lack of weapon capacity.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: The Damned on May 03, 2012, 01:36:42 am
(Seriously, this is the last thing I'm responding to tonight.)

Yes, I suppose using spoilers for this is best.

1. I don't recall saying that I didn't enjoy the other matches. Just that I've enjoyed the LightningHax vs. Kihaku_FTW's match the most so far. Yes, I'll admit that I find OHKOs boring after a while, but I'm rather used to the fact they still happen rather easily in ARENA as they did in vanilla FFT. Seeing some of the lesser used abilities and weapons put to interesting use by still-competent teams is a lot more interesting than more foregone conclusions IMO.

2. I'm not sure what you're getting at with Ninjutsu. I just said that I thought the damage seemed a lot higher than I expected given the amount of Faith the targets had. I haven't done any of the calculations though--I rarely do--and as such, it must make "sense" on some level. Regardless, as always I'm still a lot more bothered by the -tons still being unavoidable than by the amount of damage they do even at their range, instant speed and minimal MP cost. So, yeah. Sorry if I was unclear about that, but I think we're focusing on different aspects of Ninjutsu, especially when I never brought up the fairy tale of "fairness".

3. I don't have a problem with Chakra being back to AoE. I can see why that was changed back, even if it does slightly irk me. Still not a problem to me overall, though. However, Stigma magic being back to AoE just bugs me because of the sheer amount of things it cures and the fact that it hits the Monk using it at instant speed and that it's basically 100% successful. If most people ultimately want it that way, then so be it. I don't plan on harping on it, but don't expect me to like it or agree with it.
Title: Re: FFT Arena Season One Discussion Thread
Post by: FFMaster on May 03, 2012, 01:49:19 am
No idea why there are 2 threads. Closing this one and unstickying. Go to the other thread.