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FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 2 Registration

Started by Barren, June 14, 2013, 07:05:39 am

Gaignun

July 02, 2013, 09:57:34 am #100 Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 10:21:31 am by Gaignun
Unfortunately, there is no other way when you have more than a full bracket.  We're 2 over 32, so we need to give 30 byes one way or another.  The cleanest way is to give all the byes in the first round.  We might be able to distribute byes between multiple rounds, or give multiple byes to top-seeded players, but this makes the brackets messy.

Barren

hmm right. Well let's see how the brackets turn out then we'll decide from there
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

reinoe

http://www.printyourbrackets.com/34-team-seeded-double-elimination.html

Yeah, just looking at "print your brackets" website.  I don't think it's too big of a deal.  Four players "play in" to the first round and then the winners will face Gaignun and Avalanche.  That's not too big of a deal because those two haven't built good teams in ages. ;)
My dreams can come true!


The Damned

(Gods, damn it.)

Okay, so I'm "back"-ish. I swear, I knew this would happen when I tried to change over my Internet. Fucking AT&T.

So, my Internet is going to still be out until at least Friday, by which time it's "supposed" to be fixed. I'll remain skeptical until that actually happens though since I've been without Internet since Saturday, hence why I "disappeared".

I suppose it's better that this happened before the tournament actually started and that I have access to at least some connection, even if it's...spotty at best and is horrible with trying to do video anything. Ugh. I also was using this all of yesterday to try to fix said problem, but considering I was on the phone and stuff...yeah.

Still, I apologize for the delay and checking up sooner.

If it would be easier to 33 people, then I'll gladly drop out even though I'm about to send Barren my team (finally) that I actually had ready on Saturday.

It's up to everyone else, really, especially since I wasn't going to be around on Thursday at all anyway and tomorrow looks spotty considering everything else I have to do.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

CT5Holy

Go ahead and submit your team. The brackets will be fine.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

The Damned

(I meant to post this two hours ago, but like I said, "spotty".)

Okay. So team typed up & then sent, and then re-typed up & re-sent after the forum timed out on me...and then revised slightly & re-re-sent after CT5Holy found an (itty-bitty) error that I, of course, made. Sigh.

So that's finally done at least.

Have we decided on the maps, though? Or even the map order? I ask partly because the only person that commented on the former was Gaignun (still) and I agree with Dokurider on the latter in that we shouldn't be changing map order. In the case of the latter, though, I guess I'd maybe be open to a Medium, Small, Large order due to also being sick of Quickening & Spellguns, but, again, I agree with Dokurider here.


Quote from: Gaignun on June 29, 2013, 12:36:42 pm
Thanks for the revisions.  A few comments:

Hospital in Slums: Aside from being visually disorienting and containing bottlenecks, this map gives spellcasters an overwhelming advantage.  Imagine the grief of trying to reach stationary Lore/Dance users while being held up by tanks blocking the doorways.  For these reasons, I think it should still be omitted.

Fovoham Plains: I know I labeled this medium, but on second thought, it should probably be large.  We need fewer medium maps and more large ones, anyway.

Warjilis Trade City:  P1 is fenced in by the water.  Meanwhile, P2 has an entire city to retreat into when taking heat.  It's not balanced.

Port of Warjilis:  Nasty, nasty bottlenecks.  Me no like.

The rest looks more or less fine.



I'll be "concise" here for once, if only due to connection:

1. Hospital in the Slums: I concur.


2. Fovoham "Plains": I suppose I concur, especially given the great height distance and the A.I. not charging at each other all the time. We definitely could have less medium maps, though.


3. Warjilis Trade City: I guess I agree, even though that's hardly ever happened to my recollection. I'm admittedly biased to liking all of the Warjilis maps from an aesthetic stand-point.


4. Port of Warjilis: Meh. I actually disagree here a bit. It's not that bottlenecks don't exist here, obviously, and I'll admit that initially I also didn't like this map, but it's more a problem of not being hypocritical or willfully selective. After all, if we got rid of this having bottlenecks that can actually (?) be overcome, then we'd also have to get rid of the maps like the Entrance of Death City or TIGER or VALKYRIES since those two can have passage that "clog up". Hell, we'd also have to get rid of other maps that don't necessarily have bottlenecks, but have "killing corridors" like Outside of Limberry Castle or Underneath Limberry Castle, especially with how dumb the A.I. can be about bunching up for AoE. I think it's "fine", though it could probably be improved by, I don't know, starting on the boat itself since we need more Small (usable) maps anyway.

Ultimately, I guess it could "die" or not be used for the tournament since I don't think we're changing maps' positions and such at all given that for the last tournament we didn't, for instance, get rid of the orrery in Besrodio's house, but I'd just rather not start down that slipper slope. In the instance of the Hospital in the Slums, those bottlenecks are easy to create AND can't be overcome by anything other than Teleport, unlike how at least Fly, Float, Geomancers, Longbows and other things can get rid around the ship at Warjilis. (This even if they often don't due to the A.I. being very dumb about things at times.)


Other maps I could probably reconsider just because...if I wasn't doing other things and my Internet connection wasn't currently giving me a constant, literally blinking red middle finger.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

reinoe

July 03, 2013, 03:34:10 am #107 Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 05:13:00 am by reinoe
Can we be sure that maps 120-124 don't exist?  I only ask because people have been saying that about 000 and it turns out that 000 just needs light.

Quote from: The Damned on June 28, 2013, 11:55:20 pm
(I...don't know to feel how about that map order, honestly. Admittedly, I also didn't know how to feel about the initial "Medium, Large, Small" you apparently accidentally posted. The currently suggested one seems to heavily favor melee teams.

The map order is ultimately up to you though, Barren.)

Speaking of map stuff, I was reminded that I wanted to again post the map stuff I've still been mulling over with regards to the "acceptable" maps for ARENA that got somewhat waylayed by the Jot5 focus and tag-teamed by my own indolence. I figure we should at least talk about a bit considering that Gaignun admitted his own map selection from last year was as thorough as he wanted when I modified it a bit about three or four months ago:


Any parenthetical commentary here is Gaignun's.


1. 001 - At Main Gate of Igros Castle [Medium]
2. 002 - Back Gate of Lesalia Castle [Medium]
3. 003 - Hall of St. Murond Temple [Medium]
4. 004 - Office of Lesalia Castle [Small]
5. 005 - Roof of Riovanes Castle [Medium]
6. 006 - At the Gate of Riovanes Castle [Large]
7. 008 - Riovanes Castle [Small]
8. 010 - Inside of Igros Castle (movement restricted for units without fly/teleport/ignore height) [Medium]
9. 012 - Office of Igros Castle [Small]
10. 013 - Inside of Lionel Castle [Small]
11. 014 - Office of Igros Castle (extremely small - teams are susceptible to fatal first round AoE) [Small]
12. 016 - Inside of Limberry Castle [Medium]
13. 017 - Underground Cemetary of Limberry Castle [Medium]
14. 018 - Office of Limberry Castle [Small]
15. 019 - At the Gate of Limberry Castle (2) [Medium]
16. 020 - Inside of Zeltennia Castle [Small]
17. 021 - Zeltennia Castle [Small]
18. 022 - Magic City Gariland [Medium]
19. 024 - Military Academy's Auditorium (units with fly/teleport can escape to the elevated platform) [Small]
20. 025 - Yardow Fort City [Small]
21. 027 - Goland Coal City [Medium]
22. 028 - Colliery Underground First Floor (large size, but fighting is clustered in the high region) [Medium]
23. 029 - Colliery Underground Second Floor [Large]
24. 030 - Colliery Underground Third Floor [Large]
25. 031 - Dorter Trade City [Medium]
26. 032 - Slums in Dorter (large size, but fighting is clustered on the ground) [Medium]
27. 034 - Cellar of Sand Mouse [Medium]
28. 035 - Zaland Fort City [Medium]
29. 037 - Ruins Outside Zaland [Large]
30. 044 - Bervenia Free City [Large]
31. 045 - Ruins of Zeltennia Castle's Church [Large]
32. 046 - Cemetary of Heavenly Knight Balbanes (medium size, but placement is separated) [Large]
33. 048 - Slums in Zarghidas (large size, but fighting is clustered on one half of the map) [Medium]
34. 049 - Fort Zeakden [Medium]
35. 051 - St. Murond Temple [Small]
36. 053 - Entrance to Death City (units can escape melee damage by fleeing the centre platform) [Small]
37. 054 - Lost Sacred Precincts (bottlenecks exist, but there is plenty of room to run around) [Large]
38. 055 - Graveyard of Airships [Large]
39. 056 - Orbonne Monastery [Medium]
40. 058 - Underground Book Storage Second Floor (medium size, but fighting is clustered above the stairs) [Small]
41. 060 - Underground Book Storage Fourth Floor (large size, but fighting is clustered in the lower region) [Medium]
42. 061 - Underground Book Storage Fifth Floor [Large]
43. 063 - Golgorland Execution Site [Medium - may go]
44. 065 - Granary of Bethla Garrison [Small]
45. 068 - Bethla Garrison [Small]
46. 069 - Murond Death City [Medium]
47. 071 - Dolbodar Swamp [Large]
48. 072 - Fovoham Plains (large size, but fighting is clustered by the water) [Medium]
49. 073 - Inside of Windmill Shed (units might attempt to throw items through the elevated platform and fail) [Small]
50. 074 - Sweegy Woods [Large]
51. 075 - Bervenia Volcano [Medium - improve start points]
52. 076 - Zeklaus Desert [Large]
53. 077 - Lenalia Plateau [Medium]
54. 079 - Yuguo Woods [Medium]
55. 080 - Araguay Woods [Medium - more a Large Map]
56. 084 - Bariaus Hill (close placement) [Large]
57. 085 - Mandalia Plains (fighting tends to cluster in one corner) [Large]
58. 086 - Doguola Pass (medium size, but clustered fighting in low region) [Small]
59. 087 - Bariaus Valley [Large]
60. 088 - Finath River [Large]
61. 089 - Poeskas Lake [Large]
62. 090 - Germinas Peak [Medium]
63. 091 - Thieves Fort [Medium]
64. 092 - Igros, Beoulve Residence [Small]
65. 094 - Broke Down Shed-Stone Building [Small]
66. 096 - Pub [Small]
67. 098 - Outside Castle Gate in Lesalia [Medium]
68. 100 - Public Cemetary [Large]
69. 101 - Tutorial (1) [Medium]
70. 102 - Tutorial (2) [Large]
71. 103 - Windmill Shed (distant unit placement for a small map) [Small - has other problems. Should go?]
72. 105 - TERMINATE [Large]
73. 106 - DELTA [Large]
74. 108 - VOYAGE (map is large, but narrow) [Medium]
75. 109 - BRIDGE [Large]
76. 110 - VALKYRIES (extremely distant placement and clustered fighting upon contact) [Large - should go]
77. 112 - TIGER (units with fly/teleport outpace their team) [Large]
78. 113 - HORROR (large map, but fighting is clustered on one side) [Small]
79. 118 - Checkerboard Land 2 [Medium]
80. 125 - Checkerboard Stairs [Large]



I didn't check map 000, though apparently it's an utterly broken map, at least on the visual level...which is kind of important.

All bracket commentary here is mine. Some of it's probably outdated.


1. 007 - Inside of Riovanes Castle [seems fine as Medium]
2. 009 - Citadel of Igros Castle [cannot be fixed]
3. 011 - Office of Igros Castle [possibly fine; Small]
4. 015 - At the Gate of Limberry Castle (1) [no fix]
5. 023 - Belouve [sic] Residence [Outside; fine?; Small]
6. 026 - Weapon Storage of Yardow [fine? narrow=4tile; L]
7. 033 - Hospital in Slums ["3D" map; maybe fine; Large]
8. 036 - Church Outside of Town [fine w/ differed start?]
9. 038 - Goug Machine City [cannot be fixed]
10. 039 - Underground Passage in Goland [like 026; Large]
11. 040 - Slums in Goug [personally seems fine; Med or L]
12. 041 - Besrodio's House [just take out orrery; Med]
13. 042 - Warjilis Trade City [P1 H-adv? Fine?; Medium]
14. 043 - Port of Warjilis [P2 H-adv? Fine?; Medium]
15. 047 - Zarghidas Trade City [fine; Medium or Large?]
16. 050 - St. Murond Temple [Outside; cannot be fixed]
17. 052 - Chapel of St. Murond Temple [Zalbag; no fix?]
18. 057 - Underground Book Storage First Floor [OK? M? L?]
19. 059 - Underground Book Storage Third Floor [fine?; L]
20. 062 - Chapel of Orbonne Monastery [cannot be fixed]
21. 064 - In Front of Bethla Garrison's Sluice [no fix]
22. 066 - South Wall of Bethla Garrison [fine?; Medium]
23. 067 - Noth [sic] Wall of Bethla Garrison [no fix]
24. 070 - Nelveska Temple [banned for good reason]
25. 078 - Zigolis Swamp [cannot be fixed?]
26. 081 - Grog Hill [cannot be fixed?; would be Large]
27. 082 - Bed Desert [can be fixed?; would be Large]
28. 083 - Zirekile Falls [cannot be fixed]
29. 093 - Broke Down Shed-Wooden Building [Dortr1; OK?; S]
30. 095 - Church [fine; Medium map]
31. 097 - Inside Castle Gate in Lesalia [fine?; Medium]
32. 099 - Main Street of Lesalia [fine; Large map]
33. 104 - Belouve [sic?] Residence [Repeat of 092]
34. 107 - NOGIAS [cannot be fixed]
35. 111 - MLAPAN [possibly fine...outside of Fly; "Small"]
36. 114 - END [banned for good reason]
37. 115 - Banished Fort [cannot be fixed]
38. 116 - Arena [could easily be fixed with better start]
39. 117 - Checkboard Land 1 [cannot be fixed]
40. 119 - Checkboard Land 3 [just 118 with different start]
41. 120 - [doesn't exist?]
42. 121 - [doesn't exist?]
43. 122 - [doesn't exist?]
44. 123 - [doesn't exist?]
45. 124 - [doesn't exist?]
My dreams can come true!

The Damned

(Thanks for reminding to me to fix that damn spoiler error now that I could.)

As far as maps 120-124, no, I'm personally not 100% certain they don't exist. [/triple negative nightmare]

That said, it would be more trouble than it's worth but to try to find out/confirm that they exist, confirm that they're even usable and then debate as to whether they are tournament "worthy" given all the other maps we have to debate; well, that and the fact that no one has done it by now.

As far as map 000 goes, I was under the impression that it had more problems to it than just needing light. Hence why no one has used it for recordings, even Barren in his relative map laxity/map inclusiveness.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

reinoe

Quote from: The Damned on July 03, 2013, 04:21:26 am
(Thanks for reminding to me to fix that damn spoiler error now that I could.)

As far as maps 120-124, no, I'm personally not 100% certain they don't exist. [/triple negative nightmare]

That said, it would be more trouble than it's worth but to try to find out/confirm that they exist, confirm that they're even usable and then debate as to whether they are tournament "worthy" given all the other maps we have to debate; well, that and the fact that no one has done it by now.

As far as map 000 goes, I was under the impression that it had more problems to it than just needing light. Hence why no one has used it for recordings, even Barren in his relative map laxity/map inclusiveness.

Oh yeah, maps 120-124 is something not to be debated now.  I guess it's something I didn't really need to bring up at all, at least not with the hectics of everything else going on.
My dreams can come true!

Barren

For the map order I was thinking of Small, Medium, Large. Does anyone object?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

woodenbandman

Quote from: Barren on July 03, 2013, 07:38:31 am
For the map order I was thinking of Small, Medium, Large. Does anyone object?


Whatever is the most neutral should be last so that if there's a double victory on a small map and a large map (I.E. the team with the advantage on the large map lost anyway) we don't need to do the medum match.

The Damned

July 03, 2013, 02:55:44 pm #112 Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 03:11:32 pm by The Damned
(Hmmm...the connection seems slightly better today, but maybe that's just because I cleaned up this borrowed laptop in general.)

Regardless, I have too much to do still for me to be on here (actively) for all that long.

So I'll just say two things generally here (since I don't want to bother with PMs right now):


1. I assume that was the last team, right, Barren?

2. When it comes to the Loser's matches, I'll gladly take 3 matches since I personally feel like FFMaster should do the least recordings given everything else he has to do and his timezone being so different from everyone's else. We'll see how Friday (and tomorrow) go for me, though, and it's really up to Dokurider or FFMaster who wants to do 2 or 3 really. [/is probably an asshole for somewhat publicly putting Dokurider somewhat "on the spot" in a way, but you already knew that]

3. Personally, after the tournament starts, I'm probably going to need team names from everyone. Otherwise I'm making up my own (punny) ones. (Blind EDIT[ing]: Damn it, I really need to stop omitting things even when I proofread, which I need to start doing more than just once, and then edit, which I need to stop having to do more than once.)


As for the other things....


Quote from: Barren on July 03, 2013, 07:38:31 am
For the map order I was thinking of Small, Medium, Large. Does anyone object?


Objection!


As the above says, I see no point in changing the map order, even if we're that worried about Spellguns or Quickening. If those things have such a huge advantage (on a Large map), then why are even allowing their inclusion instead of just, you know, banning them? It's pretty clear that they're both (absurdly) overpowered and, in Quickening's case, broken, so...?

(And, no, I'm not suddenly bringing this up now since I rather asked it from the beginning and cited it as my reason for maybe waiting for 1.39. If we're definitely going with 1.38d and letting everything in, then it seems kinda...half-assed, to be blunt, to try to change map order now to try to futilely circumvent the probably inevitable ultimate victory by a Quickening-using and/or Spellgun-using team. Speaking of being contrary though....)

Alternately, why include a Large map at all if we're so worried about those abilities and having teams that will inevitably use them will fight on two "disadvantaged" maps at all in transparent hopes they'll never get there? Why not just go Small, Medium, Medium then? [/Devil's Advocate]

Obviously, more than they are advantaged by a Large map, given a large map benefits pretty much all non-Paladin mages. It's just that Quickening and Spellguns tend to be way more abusive than mages in general and both of those, especially Spellguns, also "counter" mages. Quickening by just constantly interrupting & re-directing and Spellguns by OHKO'ing them unless they have Magic. Defense UP or White Robe or Setiemson or some combination; Projectile Guard is still a crapshoot even if they're carrying 70 and/or Pilgrimage. The problem is furthered, then, by the fact that distance weapons, especially guns in general, greatly reduce map sizes as it is. So if we really are worried about Spellguns (and Quickening), then it seems a bit odd to put mages in OHKO range from the start twice consecutively before then proceeding to another map where Spellguns (and Quickening) supposedly still have the advantage anyway....

I guess what I'm saying is that everyone already knows (finally) that Quickening & Spellguns are the King & Queen(s) of ARENA 1.38d. Given they're currently also King & Queen of the United States of "Fuck You, Mages", if we're allowing them, then why are we making them even stronger by changing a map order that worked before?


Let's just use "Small, Large, Medium" please since that's worked well before and leave changing up map order to the inevitable 1.39x tournament where things probably won't be as egregiously overpowered. (Or at least more stuff will be perhaps be equally overpowered so it kind of "balances out" like Rainbow Edition or Marvel/Capcom vs. Anything not-SNK.)


Quote from: woodenbandman on July 03, 2013, 09:48:43 am
Whatever is the most neutral should be last so that if there's a double victory on a small map and a large map (I.E. the team with the advantage on the large map lost anyway) we don't need to do the medum match.


Also, this.


Quote from: reinoe on July 03, 2013, 05:14:21 am
Oh yeah, maps 120-124 is something not to be debated now.  I guess it's something I didn't really need to bring up at all, at least not with the hectics of everything else going on.



Meh. It's fine and a valid question, so I'm not sure why you're pseudo-apologizing for mere curiosity. I just honestly don't know on both cases personally, especially since double-checking whether maps 120-124 even exist at all probably involves coding of some kind and I've still never even bothered to try doing that. Also, as I've said, I'm pretty sure no one has ever really checked.

Try asking Pride or something if you're generally curious given how good he is at coding. Maybe Kokojo would know given all the map work he's done thus far.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they're just repeats of each other or something though given a couple of existing maps already repeat each other as I also noted there; the repeated maps show just how powerful changes to initial starting positions are too.

*looks at Volcano and the Arena maps, among others, as maps that would be greatly improved with a change to starting coordinates*
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Barren

July 03, 2013, 03:36:23 pm #113 Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 08:08:35 pm by Barren
Allright, we'll do small, large, medium then

Gaignun whenever you're ready to post the brackets, I think FFM, Doku, and The Damned has decided on how they can do the loser's bracket
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

CT5Holy is managing the brackets.  Did he give you a link?

The Damned

(Okay. Small-Large-Medium it [still] is. Good.)

Yes, Gaignun. CT5Holy PM'd us all the Brackets and the link to--*checks PMs*--yesterday.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

reinoe

By the way, a note to CT5HOLY...don't feel bad about talking for longer than a match.  I always appreciate the insight.  Plus other AI COMMENTATORS do it all the time in my casual matches.  Proof...

My dreams can come true!