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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Shintroy

Forget Ultima. Let's add Meteor to Time Magic and give it 8 CT, MA* 20, unevadable, and to top it all of non elemental. Wizard gets Dark Holy as well. Buff Bahamut's damage modifiers by one while we're at it.

WKW has the right idea for not adding haste/regen on another ability and even though he's new to Arena, Andrew explains what Squire is all about perfectly. As a main unit, squire can play all roles with constantly evolving meta. Basic skill as a secondary skillset compliments most classes in the game. Yell should stay as is. If anything add more basic abilities to the class instead of unbalancing it. If there's room for two abilities when lets get a self boosting brave and faith ability. Instant, +5 br/fa sounds okay.

Can we do something about the filler abilities Tsumazuku and Bad Luck?

I suggested changing Back Luck either slots or roulette and giving the ability both positive and negative effects. Something the AI will undeniably use on allies and enemies and maybe even on themselves. Actually if quickening gets removed we can give thief both good and back luck.
Good Luck: Target Allies only, 100% hit, Add Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison.
Bad Luck - Target Enemies only, 100% hit Add Poison, death sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen
Similar to bard and dancer's nameless abilities, but are meant to target near critical allies or healthy enemies. Seems like versatile abilities to me. Let's make Luck a real stat lads.
Some day my people will be free.

Reks

Quote from: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 05:59:59 pm
Forget Ultima. Let's add Meteor to Time Magic and give it 8 CT, MA* 20, unevadable, and to top it all of non elemental. Wizard gets Dark Holy as well. Buff Bahamut's damage modifiers by one while we're at it.

WKW has the right idea for not adding haste/regen on another ability and even though he's new to Arena, Andrew explains what Squire is all about perfectly. As a main unit, squire can play all roles with constantly evolving meta. Basic skill as a secondary skillset compliments most classes in the game. Yell should stay as is. If anything add more basic abilities to the class instead of unbalancing it. If there's room for two abilities when lets get a self boosting brave and faith ability. Instant, +5 br/fa sounds okay.

Can we do something about the filler abilities Tsumazuku and Bad Luck?

I suggested changing Back Luck either slots or roulette and giving the ability both positive and negative effects. Something the AI will undeniably use on allies and enemies and maybe even on themselves. Actually if quickening gets removed we can give thief both good and back luck.
Good Luck: Target Allies only, 100% hit, Add Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison.
Bad Luck - Target Enemies only, 100% hit Add Poison, death sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen
Similar to bard and dancer's nameless abilities, but are meant to target near critical allies or healthy enemies. Seems like versatile abilities to me. Let's make Luck a real stat lads.


Ultima still needs a fix regardless of how squared away Squires are. You can't ignore something that needs it just because other abilities need fixing as well.

As it is, it barely has a use. It's basically half of Flare in damage terms, but AoE.

Buffing it's CT a little wouldn't do anything to Squires as they are already.


Thoughts:

Yell becomes instant. It already has to compete with Masamune and Haste/Haste 2 as well, and while it beats Masa in range it then clashes with the AoE Hastes. Give it instant to make it somewhat on-par with the others.
As agreed with Gaignun, Ultima should get 3CT to even make it usable.

Squires are fine otherwise as they are, but I did propose they get Poles in exchange for, say, Books as a MA focused weapon, and perhaps to see more offensive pole use. (and for more historical accuracy. See: quarterstaffs)

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Shintroy

When you compare Ultima to Throw Stone and Bullrush it's not all that bad. It's the squire's caster ability, which isn't saying much. MA*9, CT5, ranged, non-elemental, faithless Never seen a team or build that had a good Ultima unit in 139 either so I can agree on it needing a buff. MA*10 is the only thing I can think of that'll make it on par with other top end spells like Flare, Holy and Bahamut.

I should make a high end, non-mime team with an Ultima unit before I get into balancing it though. Ultima Weapon and Ultima? Nah.....
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silentkaster

Yell is instant. That was a change implemented in 1.39. The reason I suggest it earn Regen is that it really doesn't compete with Masamune, or even Haste 1. It has 100% accuracy I guess, but no AOE and costs MP. If Masamune changes to no longer Add: Regen, then it certainly can be a valid candidate. Still, I think this ability deserves a boost either way.

I like CT 3 Ultima. Adding a point of MA doesn't change the fact that it costs MP, is slow, can be redirected, and is hard to use effectively. Adding several points would balance it, but it is arguable it could become OP. I think seeing it CT3 is a great way to balance it.
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Shintroy

Squire can play caster roles too silentkaster. Squire abilities can have an MP cost, also giving it a charge time of three while keeping at 9 MA is too much since it's unevadable and has a MA multiplier of nine. MA*10, CT5 Ultima won't be OP with short charge or magic attack up. Faster units already cancel out slow casters and a 3CT aoe comet isn't OP at all. There's geomancy that can do the same thing and is instant. Short charge 2 CT unevadable ultima sounds ridiculous and magic attack up 15+ 3CT ultima sounds more annoying than current quake and tornado.

Still not sure on why Masamune has to be nerfed and even more unsure of why Yell needs a buff. What's the reasoning behind wanting these changes.
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Heroebal

what about ultima being ct5 ma 9 enemy only or would that be too much? The biggest issue I've run across when trying to use Ultima is it getting redirected against my own units. One of my bards on rock out team originally had ultima but he kept eating the spell himself too frequently.

Gaignun

Oh right.  I forgot that Ultima ignores evasion.  In that case, putting it on par with tier 1 magic is going a little too far.  Nevertheless, to make a case that Ultima needs adjustment, I think it is best to put Ultima on terms with Chirijiraden. Both are non-elemental, BrFa-independent AoE skills of identical strength:

Chirijiraden

  • Pros: 0 CT, 0 MP, 2 AoE, shares a skillset with Murasame and Masamune

  • Cons: 0 Range, evadable



Ultima

  • Pros: 5 Range, ignores evasion

  • Cons: 5 CT, 20 MP



I claim here that the cost of +5 CT is a not worth the extra range and 100% accuracy.  Spell redirection is a big problem on 5 CT AoE spells.  Perhaps we could make Ultima smart-targeting to solve this problem, as Heroebal suggests.

As for Masamune and Yell, I would rather have Haste+Regen on a one-target skill than a two-target skill.  Haste+Regen is perhaps the most effective combination of two separate buffs in Arena, and it is a large contributor to Draw Out's popularity.  Many players, including me, equip Draw Out on support units for Masamune and Masamune alone.  Shuffling its effect to Yell would help curb the ubiquity of Draw Out and help Basic Skill find a little more representation in competitive play.

Quote from: Shintroy on October 08, 2015, 05:59:59 pmIf anything add more basic abilities to the class instead of unbalancing it. If there's room for two abilities when lets get a self boosting brave and faith ability. Instant, +5 br/fa sounds okay.


Unfortunately, I don't believe the AI will ever use +Br/Fa skills unless they carry other perks.  Do you have any ideas?

dw6561

I agree that Yell should get regen instead of Masamune. If that's the case though, then basic skill gets two ways to cure poison. I don't know if that's relevant but I just wanted to bring that up. Also, I would be fine with a smart-targeting Ultima.
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Kurosabes


I'm not sure what to really think of Ultima myself. I guess it's another of those 'too risky' things, even with Short Charge. I have not seen enough use but I would just go ahead with Heroebal's suggestion, that would give it more incentive to use due to the significantly decreased risk. And such a change wouldn't affect Ultima Weapon either, even though it might be considered underpowered at the moment. But I'll use that on some sample teams to get a better idea on how it fares


I wouldn't see +Br/Fa being used much after initial hype of new abilities, at least I wouldn't be. Accumulate/Alacrity is simply better because there is no increased risk attached to it. That being said, I'll drop my suggestion:


Brave booster skill: +5 Brave, -5 Faith
Faith booster skill: +5 Faith, -5 Brave
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silentkaster

I can get behind making Ultima smart targeted.

Are you adding that as a suggestion for a new basic skill White Knight Wiegraf or just a new skill in general (or scrapping it since you said drop??? Sorry, honestly not sure which.)

I think you'll find the AI will rarely use that...the situations would be very scarce. The AI views Faith Status as a minor buff and Innocent status as a minor debuff in general.You will occasionally see the AI use refute on a unit that has Innocent, whereas it will only use Refute on faith status of a spell (lethal) is being charged against that unit AND removing Faith will save that unit. (Of course, they may use it as an offensive ability, but not sure that would work either?)

Therefore, lowering one stat to improve another...I'm not sure how the AI will view that but it probably will see it as a minor debuff, only using it to save itself from lethal incoming damage. I'm speculating, but that's how I feel.

As far as the Squire having two ways to cure poison...that's okay too. White Magic has Esuna and Regen. Also, on units with Always: Regen, any ability that adds Regen won't work.

I think a version of Night Sword (like a WP*5 or 6 version) and a Dark Sword (same amount) would do alright on Basic Skill. Make it use MP and be evadable. IDK just thoughts I had.

Also, perhaps Life Drain and Spell Absorb also be made instant (note they don't have a hugely high hit rate and are also evadable.)
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Barren

October 09, 2015, 04:22:09 pm #1990 Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 04:27:18 pm by Barren
I don't know if squires with dark knight moves in its skillset would be a good idea because then you would immediately think that the dark knight class should be added in.

I like Ultima and yell getting a buff but if we include dark/night sword we'll might as well have dark knights in Arena. Which I'm not sure everyone would like because we're taking about a ranged blood sword attack with a minor MP cost. Not to mention that according to the WotL stats Dark Knights has among the highest attack stat excluding mimes and onion knights.

I mean the inclusion of night/dark sword can work but that will make life drain/spell absorb pointless in the oracle skillset. Unless you want to get rid of life drain/spell absorb for the superior night/dark sword
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Mudvayne

I don't know how I feel about smart targeting on Ultima. It just seems a little out of place maybe? I think lowering the CT to 3 would be good enough to make the move relevant. Changing anything else about it would start interfering with other abilities that are similar causing too much redundancy if you were to raise the AoE or MA multiplier.

Yell getting a buff seems like an ok idea. At the moment, yell as it is, is okay at best. But, it is the worst way to add haste (which is arguably one of if not the "best" buffs) currently in arena. I'd take litearlly any other skill over yell to apply haste though,  and hardly find much use for the skill my self with the way it is currently. When a unit is revived in critical and has yell, that seems to be the only thing the unit ever does. If a unit uses masamune it will atleast gain some hp back from regen usually getting the unit out of critical.

Life/Spell drain becoming instant is interesting. I still think their formulas could use some reworking, but keeping them evadable but instant might give them a bit more use.

Dark Knight as a class might be cool. There is definitely a lot that could be done with a high PA based armor wearing class. Adding in dark sword and night sword as abilities would be cool but seems pretty OP on squire if you ask me if we don't end up getting a new class. Not sure where they would fit instead, but maybe remove Ultima for night/dark sword? I'm not sure about that...

Faith/Brave boosting skills are pretty meh and too situational for the AI to find useful. If you want higher Brave/Faith on a unit, Warpath and Pilgrimage do just fine especially if combined with Fa/Br up. I don't think we need more ways of adding more br/fa on units.

silentkaster

I was just suggesting them as extra squire skills. Really, the formula suggested would not make it very powerful in the set up even with a high PA weapon and Attack Up. But I understand if it isn't well liked or wanted.

I'm behind Smart targeting OR CT3 Ultima. Either one is fine by me.

Before adding new classes like Dark Knight and such though, I would honestly like to see Monsters, at least a few classes, integrated to be honest though.
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Shintroy

What about just removing the MP cost to Yell? With the possible removal of SP altering abilities it seems like the best way to balance it without completely changing how the AI uses the ability. It would fix the attribute boosting ability bug for some units that want to use Yell and Focus/Accumulate.

I suggested a while back we could always add the PSP classes into the game, but balance them. I'm definitely more for a Malak/Rafa class being implemented since we could use more casters though.

I'd take Onion Knight to S5 easy. All equipment available including weapons and shilelds? No worrying about mimic nonsense? Giving it Innate Two Swords and Two Hands might be asking for too much.

-------------------------
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Some day my people will be free.

Mudvayne

How does everyone feel about a helmet that adds +1 SP? Maybe +85 HP and 1 SP or so to keep it semi-balanced at least.

dw6561

I would be ok with a +1 SP helmet.

Also, I don't really feel like adding Dark Knight and swordskills is in the spirit of Arena. I know I probably shouldn't be so quick to discount it but it just doesn't sit well with me. I can get behind Onion Knight in place of mime though.
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Reks

So largely it seems that there should be two new classes (Netherseer and Onion Knight)

Could write up stats and equips and such for them just to be more exact, but I'm bad at that.

So I'll recap what I can remember off the top of my head for retrospection and/or more ideas:

Change/Fix Ultima, Tsumazuku, Bad Luck
Largely removing speed altering
Netherseers and UnFury spells
Quaknado gaining CT
Shields losing largely losing elemental weakness/gaining more interesting resistances/buffs
Katana sword procs
Masamune yet again
Jump CT based on Jump Movement instead of Speed
Spears improve Jump Move instead of Speed
Samurai gains Spears and Bows (historical accuracy+ job improvements)
Paladins gain Flails, perhaps lose Katanas
Squires lose Books and gain Poles (historical accuracy + more room for offensive polemen/women)
Poison/Regen changes. MP versions as well?
Wizards raised above the current Wizard+ Scholars via MA
Summoners become MP oceans
Spell/Life Absorb becomes based on something other than max HP/MP%
Demi Gun, maybe a Cure Gun (Celdia's CCP2 has a gun that heals on hit instead, for example, but gotta watch that WP for abuse)


So there's that on the table
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dw6561

Onion knight seems fine to me. If they have the ability to equip secondaries and RSM, then I would say no innate 2S or 2H. Also, if onion knight has the ability to equip everything like it does in WoTL, there's no need to make their stats absolutely stellar because they can always boost it via equipment. That being said, they could be at least a step up from mime or on par with squire for PA and MA, but I would definititely make their HP lower than squire if this is the case. 9 Speed might be a bit much, so I would go with 8 speed.

Here is my proposal on stats (Not sure on the HP/MP values):

Female: 100-120 HP, 50-70 MP, 7 PA, 9 MA, 8 SP
Male: 120-140 HP, 40-60 MP, 9 PA, 7 MA, 8 SP

On another note, when you say "MP oceans", how much MP are we talking about here? I can practically taste the combinations with MP switch if we were to add that.
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Barren

October 13, 2015, 10:59:46 am #1998 Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 03:23:18 pm by Barren
I think he meant that summoners will have a healthy supply of MP to the point where you can just go ahead and throw on high HP gear on them. Gives summoners better longevity

Onion Knights are supposed to be the best class in Final Fantasy, not just in WotL. You have to master every job to max out the stats, and level 6 squire/chemist just to unlock it and at first their stats suck.

Plus Onion Knights needs move/jump 4 to compete against thieves because currently thieves are among one of the strongest classes in this patch. Not just the recent SCC tourney but in AI tourneys in general. Thieves are just so versatile at physical, status and support roles that their speed highly compliments them. Onion Knights getting 9 or 10 speed I think would be helpful because while thieves aren't invincible but there are not many classes that can stand up to them
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Elmdork

Gawd too many ideas! Before we even think of changing things like samurai which is actually totally fine and doesn't really need any buffs we gotta make sure the big things get fixed, such as scholar as a whole.

What i don't understand is why masamune (ability) still gives regen. By removing regen from masamune you would buff both poison AND every other ability that uses regen. still range one target self, and people will still use the crap out of it. The whole reason regen has problems at all is because of how easy it is to abuse masamune, and how many times better masamune is to pretty much everything else in the game. Conversely, squire should pick up poison. First off, it'll actually get used, and secondly, it will help fortify squire as a potential caster. Ultima isn't bad but i really wish it was ct4.

while we're on samurai, all they need is a selection of katana that people will want to use. that's it. Start giving them bows and spears and then they'll pretty much be able to do everything with little to no drawback. Kind of not cool as they're supposed to be compared to paladins who appear to get left in the dust with every new idea. I know i was one of the first to agree on the bow/spear thing, but after much thought, i realized my second favourite caster class is samurai, and they're not even caster types. We don't need them proficient as a speed character as well.

I'm cool with netherseer as a class, not too happy with losing dancers though. It's a tough call between the dancer skillset being nearly useless, but the class itself totally rocking. If we lose permanent speed stacking, maybe we can ease up on the dancer's hit %. Would be cool if there was an oil spell on a class somewhere. Thief needs a PA nerf. Like, a big PA nerf. If masamune loses regen, maybe lancer can pick up "Rei's Wind" which would look like a grand cross that grants regen. We can keep the 3 highest level jumps and like 2 vertical jump slots and have a few support abilities akin to squire stuff. Zombie/berserk/oil/stop and maybe charm need another skill to cure them. They just dominate games and can be very difficult to counter. especially stop, nerf the stop spell PLEASE! waaaay too potent for how easily 100% can be achieved. i can't even get those odds with don't act. I suggest we make a shield to prevent one of each of these statii as most armor doesn't even protect against them and cloth units should have a choice of at least one defense (aside from accessories which may offer ma/pa benefits you may not even want)

i don't think increasing summoner MP will make a huge difference unless we develop spells with such ridiculous MP costs that only a summoner would be able to comfortably cast them. If not, you could give them 999 mp and they'll still collect dust. Oh, and no mp switch. we can't get that to function properly without move mp up abuse.
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