FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Barren]

I can test angel ring then at a later point. If I am wrong then we can disregard angel ring as a problem

[The Damned]

(I'll comment on the newest Dance-related posts later.)

You might also want to check Choice Band and Chameleon Robe if you're testing for Immune: Death Sentence stuff, Barren, even though I think they're all actually working.

*snip*

Genji Shield, Gold Armor are so far the only things actually wrong with 139 right?

I'll add I don't think quickening needs to be removed. The AI can't even use it if they have other MP using abilities. If it is removed I'd like more SP boosting equipment and Mime getting 9 base SP.

1. Chakra Band's bloated immunity count doesn't actually include Petrify like it "should" this time around, though FFMaster said he would fix that next version. I still say that Chakra Band and Headbands in general still need an overhaul. That said, besides that and the aforementioned two abilities, I don't think anything else is acting up, though it's of course always difficult to tell.

2. I'd totally be up for more +Speed equipment and Mime at least going up to 9 Speed if Quickening dies, especially since that would be the lesser evil and I already concurred with the sentiment that someone else expressed earlier of Genji Helm becoming +1 Speed instead of the currently useless "Initial: Berserk" it is now.

Also Quake and Tornado need to be nerfed to 4-5 CT. If not a nerf to CT, change the MA multiplier because 9 is absurd. 4 CT and MAx8 would be perfect.

I also concur with this.

[Barren]

I'll take your word for it Damned about the other items since the master's guide is accurate and I have ONLY seen death sentence not working with genji shield and gold armor. Whenever I do a poll for next tourney (which may be next month actually) We can decide what gimmick tournament we all want to do.

And volunteers to help would also be nice if someone is going to share the responsibility of uploading the videos on time. Like I really need people to be on board with this and not skip out at some point like previous hosts did. But that won't be for a while so stay tuned until then

[Kurosabes]

spoiler: Angel Ring

[The Damned]

(I'll still have to wait on commenting on the Dance thing, though I'll try to do it by the next time I post in here. I should probably also doing something else in the next post anyway, so it really can wait.)

Hunh. That's...weird, especially since we've seen constant confirmation that Angel Ring still is Immune: Blind/Darkness. Hmmm...I wonder if that is a consequence of the Item Attribute extension hack that FFMaster is using. Good eye regardless.

[Mudvayne]

I think Elemental should get just a slight boost to its formula. PA+4/2*MA sounds a bit better without making it too OP.

I love Geomancy and think it's an excellent skillset, it's just so hard to take advantage of the odd formula to maximize damage and still be able to make good use of a secondary skillset. It seems to max out at around ~120 damage (pre-compat of course) and that's on the high end using something like a bard with max ma gear and magic attack up and 108 gems. With this change to the formula, the damage won't be boosted too much but it should cap out a little higher around ~140 or so making it slightly more useful.

[Shintroy]

Gotta factor in Elemental being unevadable, adds status, hits enemies only and the reaction, Counter Flood. The low damage cap is just other wise we'd have some absurd geomancy builds going on. It'll be like Vanilla or 1.3 all over again.

spoiler

I've gotten geomancy to do 200+ on a Geomancer by putting him on a Mime+Magic Song, Earth Absorb team. Stack some PA, Giant Axe, Diamond Armlet for earth absorb... You'll pass the equipment cap in just three songs while the rest of your team is throwing out Slow 2, Quake times two due to mimic.

If there anything that needs a nerf it's Ninjitsu's tons. Why do they do more damage to sleep units? I don't even think spellbreaker does that and that counts as a physical attack too.

[silentkaster]

Stone Gun was definitely OP. 16x16  unevadable 6 range projectile? Bows were obsolete. Probably the best anti sandbag unit in the build in the game. Every team had a gunner. Pairing them up with shields too? 10 speed archers? I don't know about all that.

With Spell guns you have to now choose between setiemson and 108 Gems unless you make a mediator gunner.

I moved this discussion over here, but I completely disagree.

I just ran a couple of tests, and firstly, with Attack UP, only one of the 12s change to 16, not both. At 65 fury on every unit, the stone gun does 192 damage (which is exactly 12 X 16). Now, that's still a nice chunk of damage for an unevadable attack...

However, you know what is 16 WP, and can actually have its power manipulated? Gastrafitis. Also, with Attack UP, it blows the damage the Stone Gun does out of the water on either unit that can innately equip the Cross Bow. Evadable? Sure. But the Squire has Concentrate in his/her skillset, whereas any class that can equip a gun innately does not have Attack UP (or for that matter, overwhelm) in their skill set.

So what does that mean? Well, for starters, the power of a Gastrafitis can be manipulated by PA. So this means that any Squire/Archer equipping a Power Sleeve can easily match the power of the Stone Gun and with Concentrate, be almost identically effective (with the barely noticeable exception of Blind effecting the Crossbow but not the gun). Add more PA or build PA throughout the battle and the Gastrafitis starts to climb in power quickly well above the Stone Gun.

Oh, and let's not forget the fact that your unit starts out petrified. Depending on Map Selection, particularly in maps like End, or the more commonly used Grog Hill, this could be a permanent 3 X 4 at the start. At the very least, you lose a turn with essentially two units (the one that has to un-petrify the Stone gunner and the whole turn the stone gunner lost). This is fairly manageable on a large Map, a nuisance on a medium and could be outright devastating on a small map.

Also, you almost must use the item skillset. What abilities cure petrify? Soft, Stigma Magic, Esuna, and Refute. Stigma Magic may not work depending on the height panel, Esuna wastes even more time and depending on the map, is less likely to be used, and Refute is not accurate enough and could waste several turns just removing Petrify.

However, all the above is true, before you even factor in 2 hands and a reduced range. Was Stone Gun a bit OP before 1.39? Meh, I don't think so but some may argue it was. But with not one but both of those rules going into effect? It's totally easy to glance over Stone Gun for something that would work better. I think that maybe it should remain two hands but at least get the 6 range back. That would at least compensate a bit for the unit having to start off petrified. I mean...really? A 12 WP gun has to start off petrified? Eh...

In any case...back to the Spell Guns. They definitely needed some kind of nerf and I don't think I'd rag as much on those. Since these are based on faith, it's more not that they were OP but that casters in general kinda needed some kind of help. Nerfing spell guns was definitely some much needed help for them.

However, one big thing that Spell Gunners almost always carried was Kaiser Plate which at the time strengthened Fire/Ice/Lightning. Now, it strengthens Wind/Ice/Dark...which I suppose is still useful for the Glacier Gun but that would literally be the only Spell Gun it would help.

However, I'm all for keeping them two hands but bringing back the range I think would be okay. Another problem was that the Kaiser Plate was actually a decent Shield and provided some Magic Evade, which again, for casters was very bad and provided a definite advantage to the gunner (since the gunner was likely running 70 faith or more along with the caster). So taking the shield means no free strengthening (with the exception of the mediator/black robe) but still...I wouldn't be upset leaving them the way they are. However, the Stone Gun, I definitely think needs at least the ability to Equip Shields OR the 6 range back, and I still wouldn't be upset if it got both back.

[Mudvayne]

I have almost no desire to use either spell or stone guns because of the nerfs. Spell guns were much needed to be nerfed though, but I agree with Silentkaster on maybe allowing the stone gun to be 6 range. I think with the equip shield it can lead to be a little bit OP still, depending on the build you choose. 6 range gives it something a little more desirable without really making it OP.


And I still think a small buff to elemental would be nice. Maybe even just PA+3/2*MA so you can make use of an odd PA point if you use an item like say Mystic Blade that gives the +1PA/MA which a lot of people run on geomancy focused builds. It's rounded down anyways so if you didn't have the odd PA point it wouldn't even make a difference in damage output (correct me here if I'm wrong).
Elemental/Counter Flood have been my favorite skill and reaction ability since Vanilla and I would like to see it be slightly more useful even if that means it only is doing ~20 more damage with certain builds.

In order to run an effective elemental unit you almost need a bard/mime combo on your team to buff the unit and also run focus/accumulate which really limits your options for other skills if you're going for maximum damage geomancy (which obviously it certainly is not the best option out there for a team). Idk, it likely won't happen but I just would like to see it used more often.

[Shintroy]

Mythril Gun - 6 Range, +2 MA, 8 WP, One Handed
Romanda Gun - 8 Range, 10 WP, One Handed
Stone Gun - 4 Range, 12 WP, Two Handed, Initial Petrify

If Stone Gun were to get its 6 range back would there be any use for Mythril Gun? Mythril's already underused as is. Does it really need to become completely obsolete? Romanda Gun would still be a good choice since it has 8 range and doesn't have the initial petrify. Attack Up Stone Gun would reign supreme in damage with its 12x16 damage boost in comparison to Romanda's 10x12.

One-Handed Stone Gun isn't as bad of a change as 6 range, but it still seems like too much since it would have more absorb and evasion options. A bunch of 12 SP Archers with 300+ HP running around would almost completely shut down any sandbagging outside of raise 2 maybe.

PA+3 just to avoid needing to stack PA gear on some units? Elemental already deals 100-140 damage for most classes. Throwing in just one PA into the damage formula would make it too convenient. Maybe try out Ultima or Comet if you want a 40 Faith, unevadable, ability Mudvayne.  Counter Flood would have to be nerfed to 300+ JP if Elemental saw such a buff. You could just go with Squire/Geomancy if you want some potentially insane elemental Damage.

[silentkaster]

My personal thought of Mythril Gun is that it needs to be redesigned anyway. I would prefer to see +1 speed or proc Some low damage spell like Dia (and then hopefully White Staff would change). We could even make it a healing gun to make it more useful. There are so many options that could be done instead of another +2 MA weapon.

Fact is though that just because Mythril Gun isn't great, it doesn't justify Stone Gun being nerfed. I mean, 192 damage pre fury single target just isn't that much. Add defense up, unyielding, Cherche, high HP over all, and the fact that to even get to that number you have to use Attack UP? Ugh. Now, just to get that you can't equip a shield and your range is only four? I don't think 100% accuracy is enough to justify both a 2 hands and a 6 range nerf.

Your argument about fast archers running around is balanced heavily by the fact that running an initial petrify unit is risky to start. Two of them? A wrong map or AI stupidity in general would sink you. Also, your other two units must be able to cute petrify and item is the only totally reliable way. At max speed with a stone gun, you're looking at a 284 HP archer. It's not that impressive for all the risk and team building you must incorporate.

Finally, the Stone Gun is not a versatile weapon. To utilize it in almost any capacity, you must be willing to make that your primary attack method. There's no point in making a, say, stone gunner with Martial Arts. Plenty of other weapons would be an infinitely better choice.

To me, it just seems like an awful lot of trouble for a weapon that really can't even OHKO any full health unit.

[Shintroy]

Gun vs Revival
Wish: All Guns destroy Wish.
Phoenix Down: All Guns destroy Phoenix Down
Fairy: Guns will either KO, or put units into critical which potentially wastes 2+ turns.
Raise: Ston Gun will cancel Raise out on most units. Combined with SP, the gunner will win the loop.
Raise 2: The only reliable way to survive gunners. Not even including Warpath gunners or SP stacked gunners that force the AI to go for Raise instead

Guns shouldn't have procs since there's already crossbows for that.

Two Stone Gunners running around would be worth the risk of losing on small maps due to AI problems. Just give the soft, esuna or refute unit high SP so you're almost guaranteed to get them out.

Stone Gun by itself isn't versatile, but it gives Mediator, Archer, and Chemist more options than most weapons since they have free equipment slots to fit on almost any team.Kagesougi Stone Gun, Stone Gun on an absorb team, Southern Cross maybe?

Stone Gun not being able to OHKO isn't all that bad. I tend to go for near critical damage instead of critical/OHKO to avoid HP restore. You're more likely to have turn advantage against most reactions that way if you get a hit in.

No idea what kind of build could benefit from Mythril Gun outside of Chemist/Sing/Dance or Chemist/Geomancy.

What ever happened to that berserk stone gun archer from early 139? Has anyone ever tried Berserk Mime + a Gunner? I made a joke all gunner team when testing out my undead monk's chances vs seal evil with projectile guard. Mimic 200+ damage romanda guns with Attack UP and 70 Brave? Didn't try Stone Gun, but I'm sure mimic could reach 300. At that point the damage is unnecessary

[Elmdork]

Compared to how they were, the guns aren't a big deal anymore. The anti sandbag stuff could pretty much be said about any ranged weapon and some abilities. Should also note the use of defense up, auto potion, damage split and arrow guard making the lesser revival skills worth it.

[Reks]

A new Dark element weapon would be nice, to compliment the whole whopping two we have at present.

A magic gun that shoots Demi (that's Demi, not Demi 2) sounds both hilarious and actually kind of useful.

[reinoe]

A new Dark element weapon would be nice, to compliment the whole whopping two we have at present.

A magic gun that shoots Demi (that's Demi, not Demi 2) sounds both hilarious and actually kind of useful.

I wouldn't mind mythril gun becoming this if we don't convert it to a healing gun.

[Shintroy]

Would a tranquilizer crossbow be too OP? Maybe 33% add slow or maybe sleep?

I like the sound of a healing gun.

[Zotis]

So, with the Flash Hat being changed... well I like that you guys added a hat that halves Earth, Wind, and Water, but I still liked having an Innocence hat.  Any chance of getting a new one?

[Reks]

I wouldn't mind mythril gun becoming this if we don't convert it to a healing gun.

Would a tranquilizer crossbow be too OP? Maybe 33% add slow or maybe sleep?

I like the sound of a healing gun.

The thing I see being an issue with a healing gun is that it makes some other forms of healing obsolete. Why use potions when you can shoot your friend for far more healing? You technically can do that already with Elemental absorb, but that sounds a bit iffy to me, if only for the reasons stated.

However, a Demi gun would ALWAYS do (or heal if Dark absorb) the same damage. It wouldn't kill outright, but it certainly WOULD threaten tankier units and halt most forms of sangbagging. And we get a nice, widely usable Dark element weapon out of it.

[silentkaster]

The thing I see being an issue with a healing gun is that it makes some other forms of healing obsolete. Why use potions when you can shoot your friend for far more healing? You technically can do that already with Elemental absorb, but that sounds a bit iffy to me, if only for the reasons stated.

However, a Demi gun would ALWAYS do (or heal if Dark absorb) the same damage. It wouldn't kill outright, but it certainly WOULD threaten tankier units and halt most forms of sangbagging. And we get a nice, widely usable Dark element weapon out of it.

The healing gun would rely either on brave or faith. Sure, you could have your unit shoot for more healing but they're gonna need either high brave, or if it triggers a cure spell instead, faith which makes your item bots who you'd want to put this on more vulnerable. You could use shell, defense up, etc but is it really worth it? I guess it depends on your build. (Also, unyielding would become a bad choice if relying on healing gun, while overwhelm becomes more appealing.)

Demi would be fine. Demi 2 would probably be okay if it weren't 100% accuracy (same chance on evading the spell).

[Kurosabes]

spoiler: Change Jump's CT formula from 50 / Speed to XX / Jump

The purpose behind the idea is to make the Jump stat more valuable. Overall the CT would just be slightly lower if the XX value is set right, something like 21 should do. Jump can be stacked up to a value of 7. Raising this cap would require ASM.

3 Jump: 7 CT
4 Jump: 6 CT
5 Jump: 5 CT
6 Jump: 4 CT
7 Jump: 3 CT

We would see actual use for Jump+1 and Jump+2 as a result. Spears would probably get a +Jump treatment and lose their +Speed as a result.

spoiler: Renaming/scrapping everything else Mythril

Everything 'Mythril' seems to gradually leave the game, I'm guessing the rest will leave eventually so I'll begin discussion about it.

Mythril Gun: Definitely needs a change. I was thinking along the lines of making it the 'tactical' ranged weapon, by giving it +1 Move instead of the +2 MA that so many weapons seem to have right now

Mythril Spear: I agree with the view that the "Breath" spears (which includes this one) need to be renamed and given their respective elements.

Mythril Shield: Shields are more of a global issue. I've already mentioned before, giving each shield a status immunity could make them slightly more attractive.

Mythril Helmet: Some of the helmets feel a bit samey at the moment. Mythril Helmet could give its immunities to another helmet or two and then be scrapped since there are too many helmets compared to other armors and clothings.