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What I've been trying to say all along

Started by Archael, July 21, 2009, 03:52:31 pm

Kagebunji

July 22, 2009, 04:23:03 pm #20 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Kagebunji
I screw shit like Jesus Christus, but I think Hell are cavern-like places with a lot of fire, while heaven... don' give a shit about that.
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philsov

July 22, 2009, 04:29:59 pm #21 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by philsov
Quote from: "Zodiac"Theism should be banned from the surface of earth.

Why must you turn the theists into mole people?
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Mental_Gear

July 22, 2009, 04:30:19 pm #22 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Mental_Gear
Okay, bad grammar, can't even spell Jesus' last name, and trolling...ah, where do we begin?

LastingDawn

July 22, 2009, 04:30:33 pm #23 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
You are all only so much in referring to the Western World form of "religion", that you ignore the good of what religion has reaped on the other side. The three teachings of China, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, never have Once openly engaged in senseless war. They are not called "Religion" they are called "Teachings". It is not right, it is not wrong to the mind of the far east Asian, it simply Is. As long as faith does not contradict or seek to invade other's beliefs everything is fine with them. How China went from embracing these to abolishing them is a matter of much concern, but it is indeed the truth that the teachings of China are making their way back into the hearts and minds of their people.

Confucianism may not even be called a "religion" by today's standards as it has no gods. But there are rites, rites to serve and roles to play. That might be the main trouble people have with Confucianism, though within it's own pages of the "Analects", a number of Confucius's student come from every which background. Celebrated war generals, poor young men, he didn't discriminate in his following. Of course "role" to him meant mostly family and political role. Servant to Master, Son to Mother, etc, etc. The only times he does mention "gods" he tells his student that if he cannot serve man well enough, what right does he have to serve the gods?

Taoism has a pantheon, but this pantheon is not all that central to the Main Belief of the Taoist religion, which is the Tao Te Ching (The Tao and its Power), the Tao, according to Lao-Tzu, cannot be seen, cannot be felt, it can't even be properly spoken of, but it is everywhere. Most of the basis for Chinese Martial Arts comes from the schools of Zen which is a fine mix of Taoist and Buddhist thought. Tao is basically the flow of free roaming energy, as we are aware of it, it is the empty space which makes the space useful. It is impartial and cannot judge.  Though is isn't worshipped, it is merely respected. One thing that makes the Taoist Pantheon different from other "gods" is that it is merely a celebration of the person's life, as they had once lived. Let us take for instance Guan Gong, (Lord Guan, Guan Yu), in life he was a celebrated war general who fell in battle, but his life became so well known and his tribulations felt all throughout that it was his memory they decided to honor, forever and anon. Now don't misunderstand me, there are a few "mythological" character's in Taoism, mainly Fu Xi and Nu Wa, who are the basic sort of Adam and Eve, so to speak. The Yellow Emperor, who May have existed, as there are a lot of books attributed to him.

Then we have Buddhism, which admittedly I know little about, I can only say that it holds many similar aspects to Taoism, and has never fought a religious war in assertion that it's religion was right. The Mandate of Heaven, (popularized by Mencius's work) allowed the people of the Empire to judge the Empire to see if it was fit to rule. If not, they had the right to revolt and topple it. Such was the way of things. The ruling beliefs of China have only helped it's citizens, rather then stunt their growth as a people. It does not reject the advent of technology, nor does it proclaim holy war and blasphemy for what another people believe in. There is no "justification" to be done, though it has lead to a few revolts against corrupt governments (A Buddhist lead rebellion drove the mongol elites out of China in the 14th century) but nothing more then that. No grand crusades, or purgings to be done.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Kuraudo Sutoraifu

July 22, 2009, 04:30:47 pm #24 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Kuraudo Sutoraifu
Where do you get this idea of hell being a fiery cave?

philsov

July 22, 2009, 04:32:31 pm #25 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by philsov
QuoteYou are all only so much in referring to the Western World form of "religion",

Welcome to the wide wonderful world that is angstheism.
Just another rebel plotting rebellion.

Mental_Gear

July 22, 2009, 04:33:21 pm #26 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Mental_Gear
As long as faith does not contradict or seek to invade other's beliefs everything is fine with them.

And fine by me. I'm not going to push my beliefs on anyone, all I ask in return is they show me the same damn respect, and if they don't, then I'm a better person than them, simple as.

Kuraudo Sutoraifu

July 22, 2009, 04:36:46 pm #27 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Kuraudo Sutoraifu
^That^

Mental_Gear

July 22, 2009, 04:44:22 pm #28 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Mental_Gear
Crap, doesn't use HTML. sorry about that.

DarthPaul

July 22, 2009, 04:51:50 pm #29 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by darthpaul
Quote from: "Kuraudo Sutoraifu"Where do you get this idea of hell being a fiery cave?


Yomi. The Japanese form of hell is a cave. Sometimes told as being fiery sometimes being told as utter darkness.
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others. Oh damned soul wallowing in your sin, perhaps...it is time to die

tithin

July 22, 2009, 05:02:45 pm #30 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by tithin
Quote from: "Voldemort"
Quote from: "tithin"Voldemort you are quickly becoming the worst person because you keep banging on about religion and linking to terrible videos about the hypocrisy of religion. Quick piece of advice homey, we're all well aware.

if you were well aware, you would be beating up xtians irl like me

but clearly you are not

so I will continue to post videos sorry bro

Perhaps I have tolerance for idiocy and have learned to turn the other cheek?

Sry bro
14:45  @SilentB         ò "Hey, Cosgrove, how come you never married?"
14:45  @SilentB         ò "Because I eat too much meat."
14:46  @Celdia          ò Heresy. No such thing as 'too much meat'
14:47  @Celdia          ò One night with tithin would teach you that.

Pickle Girl Fanboy

July 22, 2009, 05:09:19 pm #31 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Pickle Girl Fanboy
Wasn't Confucianism used to justify what was essentially slavery based on gender?
And if you look at Myanmar and Thailand, both majority Buddhist nations, you'll find a history of institutional oppression against Muslims and Animists.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue, but I do know that people will use any excuse, destroy any good institution, hide behind everything they can to cling to power.

I think the problem is that people are perfectly balanced between good and evil.  If our natures were an inch to either pole, all the world's social ills would not exist today.

This may be irrelevant to this conversation, but here are Mark Twain's thoughts on religion, among other things, from what I think is called "The Mysterious Stranger."  Not sure on the title.
"In a little while you will be alone in shoreless space, to wander its limitless solitudes without friend or comrade forever--for you will remain a thought, the only existent thought, and by your nature inextinguishable, indestructible. But I, your poor servant, have revealed you to yourself and set you free. Dream other dreams, and better!

"Strange! that you should not have suspected years ago - centuries, ages, eons, ago! - for you have existed, companionless, through all the eternities.

Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane - like all dreams: a God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him! . . .

You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks - in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it. The dream-marks are all present; you should have recognized them earlier.

It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream - a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought - a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"


Quote from: "Zodiac"The Atheism revolt is part of the new era. There's no reason to just stand there and wait for things to happen. The more atheists revolts, the faster the new era will come.

Theism should be banned from the surface of earth.

Wasn't there a South Park episode about this, where Cartman travels to the future to get a video game system and Mrs. Garrison seduces a man who eventually leads the Atheist revolution and topples Theism, only to find that people start killing one another over obscure dogma concerning Mrs. Garrison?

Kuraudo Sutoraifu

July 22, 2009, 05:33:11 pm #32 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Kuraudo Sutoraifu
Cartman traveled into the future where two rival Athiests organizations war against each other over trivial reasons if I remember the episode correctly.

LastingDawn

July 22, 2009, 06:06:51 pm #33 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by LastingDawn
Quote from: "death is the road to awe"Wasn't Confucianism used to justify what was essentially slavery based on gender?
And if you look at Myanmar and Thailand, both majority Buddhist nations, you'll find a history of institutional oppression against Muslims and Animists.

What you are referring to is a branch of Confucianism, one of Confucius's original students made a bunch of rules up proclaiming that Confucius had said it, another original student denied that he had ever said such things, one was to the role of women (especially the comment about one legendary Emperor lacking an advisor because she was a woman), and he was adamant about the "choose a friend as someone as good as yourself and do not make friends with those that are not as good" which contradicts several other things he said. To this the student also replies that the master had never said such a thing but "to learn lessons from those of ill repute, and teach those of good repute". Though admittedly that pupil was all but ignored, as it was the other fellow (I believe his name may have been Zhu Xi?) that went on to be the base of Neo-Confucianism. Keep in mind though that it had the balancing forces of Taoism and Buddhism in most cases, over the years there is a myriad of powerful women throughout Chinese history. There is also the case that though Confucius was a revolutionary, he was still but a man of his time. Though just as there were great Queens in the process of European history (who Aristotle decried women as being "mutant"), there have been great Empresses in Chinese history.

QuoteI'm not sure where I stand on this issue, but I do know that people will use any excuse, destroy any good institution, hide behind everything they can to cling to power.

I think the problem is that people are perfectly balanced between good and evil.  If our natures were an inch to either pole, all the world's social ills would not exist today.

This may be irrelevant to this conversation, but here are Mark Twain's thoughts on religion, among other things, from what I think is called "The Mysterious Stranger."  Not sure on the title.

Believing mankind to only search for ulterior motives is rather realistic, but is it so far out of the range of possibility to believe that these people actually want to help others? Taoism, is a great example of this, what was the point of preaching what was already, pretty accepted by that time, aside from putting it into a very stylish way Confucius nor Lao-Tzu had said anything new, it just wasn't recorded on anything as of that time.

Quote
"In a little while you will be alone in shoreless space, to wander its limitless solitudes without friend or comrade forever--for you will remain a thought, the only existent thought, and by your nature inextinguishable, indestructible. But I, your poor servant, have revealed you to yourself and set you free. Dream other dreams, and better!

"Strange! that you should not have suspected years ago - centuries, ages, eons, ago! - for you have existed, companionless, through all the eternities.

Strange, indeed, that you should not have suspected that your universe and its contents were only dreams, visions, fiction! Strange, because they are so frankly and hysterically insane - like all dreams: a St. Ajora who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell - mouths mercy and invented hell - mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him! . . .

You perceive, now, that these things are all impossible except in a dream. You perceive that they are pure and puerile insanities, the silly creations of an imagination that is not conscious of its freaks - in a word, that they are a dream, and you the maker of it. The dream-marks are all present; you should have recognized them earlier.

It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no St. Ajora, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream - a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought - a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"

A nice poem, but only a poem. This of course is critical of only the Western view of Religion, with an All Powerful God, sitting at the top.
"Moment's anger can revert to joy,
sadness can be turned to delight.
A nation destroyed cannot be restored,
the dead brought back to life."

Art of War

Beta & Gretchen Forever!!!!

Kagebunji

July 22, 2009, 06:13:07 pm #34 Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 06:15:43 pm by Kagebunji
I get idea of Hell being fiery caverns from my dreams( I know it's sick), once I have been in that place and devil was pursuing me, when he caught me... the dream ends. It may be funny, but that's why I believe Hell is fiery cavern (I might be spelling from time to time, sorry I'm learnin)
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Mental_Gear

July 22, 2009, 06:14:40 pm #35 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Mental_Gear
Can't you say 'deity' instead of 'St. Ajora'?

Dormin Jake

July 22, 2009, 06:54:11 pm #36 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Dormin Jake
There is no St. Ajora but St. Ajora.  And Odin.
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We are Dormin. Thou art to bring us a tasty beverage.
  • Discord username: dorminjake

DarthPaul

July 22, 2009, 07:07:41 pm #37 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by darthpaul
I would like to throw an agnostic two cents into this conversation.

You can quote me if you like.

I don't know how the world was formed or exactly what forces bind it(god or physics). I don't need to know to live a generally happy life. I believe in scientific principles most of the time as an explanation. Then when I am emotionally distressed I look towards the baptist god (and sometimes Buddha and Izanagi) for guidance. What suits me at the time so long as I make it through it.

I don't even want to know the answer half the time. It might depress me fill me with rage or even make me lose the will to live on. As long as we have a little mystery in the world it is worth the adventure.

Also because life is semi fair when it ends you get the answer. If there is nothing after death then it does not matter you will not be aware of it just like before you where born. If any of the various religions ring true then you are judged and you shall be on your way.

I don't care either way because eternal sleep sounds lovely, and judgment won't be bad because I know that when I pass I will not have done anything worthy of punishment. Unless the true deity has a problem with living your life to the fullest. If so then I will take my punishment knowing that justice does not exist. That everything was for nothing, for I will be at peace with myself. Just knowing the answer in the end is enough to make the journey worthwhile.
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness, bringing torment and pain to others. Oh damned soul wallowing in your sin, perhaps...it is time to die

Redux

July 22, 2009, 08:01:57 pm #38 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Redux
Quote from: "Zodiac"The Atheism revolt is part of the new era. There's no reason to just stand there and wait for things to happen. The more atheists revolts, the faster the new era will come.

Theism should be banned from the surface of earth.
But, banning theism presents its own problems. Humans cannot use complete logic. We may have access to reason, but we are not masters of it. We never will be. For at its heart, reason is truth, and humanity will never be completely true to everything. We are a race of subjectives. Religion is one facet of ignorance, believe me i love bashing false masters of the infinite as much as the next guy, but religion is a symptom, not a condition or disease to cure.  The disease (as some would say, not I) is Humanity itself.

My point is people aren't perfect.  We cant percieve the whole realm of existance. as such we will never see complete reason or truth. Without that, we cant have true reason, it always gives way to hope and belief. Some atheists worship No-god, like xtians worship Jesus. Everyone has a altar we pray to, we see things to have more power than what something really posseses.

I can say for sure i am not a theist. But "God" help me if i am an atheist like that guy. He sees true reason witout religion, a blind belief based on nothnig but hope. He is right about religion causing problems, but think, without religion, LAw never would have began. Democracy wouldn't either. Just as Europe owed a lot to the cruel but just Romans, we owe ou concepts of free speech and will to philosophers whose ideas were based on the existance of a supreme being.

Finally, I believe in "god". small g. I believe that there was a genesis for this universe and that it indirectly caused existance by its perfection. In perfection, i don't mean a personal definition, i mean all things at once. God is not present for in being all things, it is the thesis and anti-thesis of all things, and cancels  out to nothing. I can argue the existance of this "god" define him as the source of all truth, neutral, not good or evil for those are human terms. But in the end i end up with a tiny leap of faith. I can't provide physical proof of "god", but i can argue for him. People cannot prove the non-existance of a "god-particle," genesis for this universe, but they can believe it. We are human. We are creatures of subjective hope and emotion. Therefor we have faith, whether we like it or not. I hope i didn't anger anyone. I odn't pick fights with religious people. I ask them questions, for the purpose of understanding, not blowing it in their faces. I respect their customs when talking to them. Hating someone for being religious is justm ore violence. Understanding and temperance can kill blind belief, not hate and "perfect" reason.

VincentCraven

July 22, 2009, 08:29:46 pm #39 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by VincentCraven
I was going to post a serious response to this thread.

But then I noticed it was in the Spam section. 8)
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.