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I need some opinions on Draw Out

Started by BlackMageShin, January 06, 2008, 07:04:15 pm

Archael

May 27, 2008, 01:00:19 am #20 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
@BlackMageShin

We tested 2D on DrawOut as a possible fix to Chirijiraden for V1.3 and, a couple things about this:

1) On my game, 2D DrawOut ate up the katana 100% of the time, without displaying "broken". No, not some of the time, every single Draw Out used resulted in 1 katana GONE from inventory. It simply vanished.

In other fights, the Katanas simply didn't break. Ever. Very buggy.

2) It can be boosted by Martial Arts. This means a Monk with Draw Out and ATK UP will deal wayyyy worse DO damage than the original DO you were trying to nerf.

^ That is why when you tested on Elmdor he was doing insane damage. Martial Arts boosts it and Elmdor always has Martial Arts equipped.


What we did for V1.3 was leave the good old Draw Out formula, since it correctly displays "broken" when katanas break, and just give the Samu very good MAM and nerf the DrawOut formula Y values.

This way, Draw Out damage is down overall, and Samurai is still good with it, and it top-end PA + MA UP DrawOut damage is nerfed at the same time.

100% AOE attacks should NOT be capable of doing high damage. The damn skillset has killer support / healing spells too. Not to mention samu innate Two Hands.

Xifanie

May 27, 2008, 08:40:42 am #21 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Xifanie
As I already said, Martial Arts + Attack up OR Two Hands both results in 2x DO damage. Two Hands + Martial arts = 3x damage; not sure you actually NEED a 2H weapon, but I doubt.
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Archael

May 27, 2008, 12:02:02 pm #22 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
Holy crap  :(

I didn't know about the Two Hands part.

VincentCraven

May 28, 2008, 06:32:16 am #23 Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 04:29:54 pm by VincentCraven
I too did a test, and the katana broke every time with no "broken" text.  Unfortunately, since not all katana can use the Holy Sword formula this causes an imbalance between Bizen Boat, Murasame, etc. versus the other offensive katana.

Not only does the BMG say that Mod2 attacks that are wpn-elemental (like Holy Sword) cannot be boosted by Martial Arts, but also I did a test myself.

Here's what I did:

I set up my SCUS_942.21 so that units would have Samurai, Monk, and Ninja unlocked at the start. Also DO skills cost 0 so that I didn't need to get the JP for real. Instead of starting from the vanilla version, I started from my FFTSigma style one, so I have a link to that here in case you would like to look at it.
For some reason I cannot post the digest file of changes. :cry:

I then went to a file that I had gotten to chapter 3 in and bought 5 male Gemini soldiers to keep the Zodiac sign variable constant.

I then did two tests and got the results below.  In both tests the primary subject was either Aquarius or Libra (both good compatibility).  Asura damage on the left, Heaven's Cloud damage on the right.  Br/Fa seems to have no effect (and it shouldn't):

Test1 - All Barehanded; against Omega the Steel Hawk
          PA   MA      Damage     Brave/Faith
Squire:    5 3      42/66         66/65
Chemist:   4 4      35/55         42/43
Ninja:     5 3      42/66         42/61
Samurai:   6 3      49/77         67/64
Monk:   6 3      49/77         46/40

Test2 - All with weapons; against Aigiparn the Red Panther
(Damage in parenthesis is normal compatibility)
                    Damage              Weapon (all at regular 7 power)
Squire:          42(35)/66(55)       Mythril Sword
Chemist:         35(28)/55(44)        Orichalcum
Ninja:           42(35)/66(55)        Orichalcum x2
Samurai:         49(42)/77(66)        Asura Knife
Monk:            49(42)/77(66)           ---

Now this data alone does not really negate what you have been saying, but it does mean that whatever I did works just fine.  Please do a test yourselves and/or point out any flaws in my experiments.

Edit: No really. If Voldemort7 had some fights in which the katana DIDN'T EVER break, then we might need more data.
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.

VincentCraven

May 28, 2008, 06:34:49 am #24 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by VincentCraven
The units
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.

VincentCraven

May 28, 2008, 06:39:14 am #25 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by VincentCraven
More units and a bonus pic.
I changed jobs and that has made all the difference.

Stormlock

August 03, 2008, 10:04:33 pm #26 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Stormlock
Wouldn't the simplest option be to make them require sword weilding? Then you can't throw it on a wizard without equip sword, which takes MA UP and rods/staves out of the picture. Still be pretty good on a Geomancer with the right gear, but thats hardly broken.

Archael

August 03, 2008, 10:25:01 pm #27 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
Quote from: "Stormlock"Wouldn't the simplest option be to make them require sword weilding? Then you can't throw it on a wizard without equip sword, which takes MA UP and rods/staves out of the picture. Still be pretty good on a Geomancer with the right gear, but thats hardly broken.


?????????

You mean changing Katana to a sword-type item, right?

Because if not, Samurais will not be able to use their own skillsets.

The Require Sword flag checks for Swords, FellSwords, and K Swords to be equipped.

It doesn't check for the Katana class of item.

Isn't the idea to check for Katanas to be equipped instead of Swords?

 Draw Out skills don't really have a weapon strike flag to begin with, they don't suggest that the caster must have a sword equipped, but rather, draws one out from inventory.

And if you do change katanas to sword-types to solve the problem, then that will remove Equip Knife from the game, and limit whoever wants to use DO to use Equip Sword as an S.

All a Wiz (or TM) has to do is Equip Sword + MA stack with standard DO Q's and reach insanely high damage no MA UP needed.


This method would also mean that every job that can equip Swords can now suddenly equip Katanas too.

It is a good idea, but it won't work as far as I can understand it.

Stormlock

August 04, 2008, 05:13:23 am #28 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Stormlock
Wasn't aware katanas don't count as swords for that purpose. How bizzare. Still, I don't see much of an issue changing katanas to swords and letting Sams equip them by default. Equip knife is pretty useless anyways, since katanas offer little besides raw attack power, and any class that would actually want to equip a high attack weapon would already have access to decent weapons and be better served by Attack UP or other support.

The main idea was simply to limit it to being used by tanky type characters. It's a pity the materia blade flag can't be fiddled with for this purpose- thats another skillset with an odd connection.

It's certainly a difficult problem. Raising Sams MA stat creates the issue of making them better spellcasters, which can be problematic with secondaries like Geomancy, Math, and summon. I suppose if you added MP costs or otherwise balanced those differently, gimped Sam MP and prevented them from wearing robes it would all work out. Otherwise Samurai are just mages with with knives and helmets instead of rods and hats. They also become better geomancers than geomancers. It's really the sort of problem you'd have to rebalance half the game around to fix, unfortunately.

Archael

August 04, 2008, 12:45:37 pm #29 Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 pm by Archael
Quote from: "Stormlock"It's certainly a difficult problem. Raising Sams MA stat creates the issue of making them better spellcasters, which can be problematic with secondaries like Geomancy, Math, and summon.


I do not see why this is a problem at all. Magical commands are HEAVILY under-used as secondaries.

If DrawOut Q are down (which they were too high for straight up MA*Y formula to begin with), Draw Out is automatically nerfed no matter what job it's on.

Let the samus get MA boost and be able to use nerfed  Q Draw Out just  as well as any other caster type.

I don't see the problem with high MA on Samurai supposing people decide to put Elemental, Summon Magic, or whatever other MA command they would like on their Samurai.

MA commands are heavily under-used on armor wearers, and it would hardly be broken on a Samurai. (By giving them better MA, it's a 10 or 20% boost, I'm not saying give them 150 MAM.)




I also don't see the problem with Samurai becoming a better Elemental carrier than a Geomancer.

Wizards carry Summon Magic better than Summoners. This hardly makes Summoner job useless does it?

Wizard and Time Mage also carries Math Skill better than Calculator, again, not a problem.

Geomancer carries Holy Sword better than Holy Knight due to their ability to wear clothes. Not a problem. Holy Knight still sees tons of use.

Ninja carries Talk Skill better than Mediator, and it also does not make them useless.

Hell, every job in the game carries the Item command better than a Chemist, you don't see anyone worried about Chemist job becoming useless do you?

If you're going to go nuts on balance, you must worry about the things the player will actually use, because no matter how "balanced" something is, there will simply be stronger mixes & strats than others, despite everything being balanced as much as possible.

One job carrying a primary better than the base job does not go against the idea of balance in the slightest.


QuoteStill, I don't see much of an issue changing katanas to swords and letting Sams equip them by default.

This works, as long as you're OK with Samurai now being able to equip Swords as well as Katana (Rune Blade plz!), Katanas being used to activate Sword Skill commands, removal of Equip Knife, and every job that can use swords (Knight, Geomancer, Squire, Sword Skillers, etc) now being able to equip Katana as well.