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Final Fantasy Hacktics

General => Archives => Tethical => Topic started by: lirmont on September 10, 2014, 05:03:47 am

Title: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on September 10, 2014, 05:03:47 am
Main composition: Heat of the Moment (1:20) (https://soundcloud.com/scott-overman/heat-of-the-moment).
Background music for this thread: Heat of the Moment (16:24) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/ffhackticks/tethical/Heat%20of%20the%20Moment%20%28programmatic%20variations%29.mp3).

So, some of you may be aware that I sunk a month into investigating FFT's music, including being able to replace the waveforms (essentially *.WAV files). I did this because I got to a point in developing the demos for the Kickstarter relaunch where I realized the music just didn't match with the quality of the graphics. A high-quality digital sound, in fact, is not what FFT used. They used pretty low quality (22040Hz) recordings, pumped them through a very heavy (but controllable) reverb, and obviously had very talented musicians write music for that system. While I can't provide the 3rd element, over that month I found free alternatives to the first ~100 of the nearly 200 instruments they used (see: Instruments Wiki (http://ffhacktics.com/wiki/Instruments)), and I began writing code to make use of a software MIDI synthesizer. Sadly, all of this stuff completely lacks the ability to be shown on youtube (some for copyright reasons, mostly for lack of visual nature of music and programming code).

Following the initial investigation, I worked the replacement instruments I found into a replacement table for the purposes of playback and composition. Since I've had the question asked already in-person: "Why does that even matter?" It matters because there are TONS of instruments in the world. If you don't start with just the ones FFT used, it's probably unlikely that you'll use anything like them unless you're skilled at writing music in the style of someone else in the first place. Furthermore, FFT instruments are synthesized, which means you couldn't even hope to find some of them without finding the source material (i.e. reverse-engineering the game) and programming a similar synthesized instrument yourself. So, this is a feature that attempts to offer you a pool of FFT-sounding instruments (without crippling you into only using them) for the purpose of writing songs/music/sound effects that mimic FFT's signature sound (re: low quality audio, massive reverb).

Did you listen to the music I linked yet? As you likely realized, it's all one piece. What changes is the musical theory foundation of: (1) tempo, (2) key (i.e. note like "C"), (3) octave, and (4) scale. These changes have the added benefit of providing an emotional characteristic, like "fear". So, "fear" becomes one configuration for the piece. Meaning, you can ask the engine to play a song like this (i.e. MIDI) in its "fear" configuration. Obviously, you'd have to set this stuff up ahead of time to make sure it sounds good, but the point is that you no longer have to think in terms of music after the initial composition is written; you can think in terms of what it lends itself to emotionally! That's a feature triple-A games have (ex. PSO2), and now so do you -- and it's orchestral-sounding (rather than electronic)!

Thanks for listening and staying interested in Tethical.

--

Since I don't want to make another post (information is over on twitter anyway), I rewrote gamepad support to use SDL2 (what Steam's Big Picture uses) since someone wrote a Python wrapper for it.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on September 10, 2014, 12:37:37 pm
Sounds pretty neat, i felt like grabbing a sword and going into an adventure while listening to that.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on September 22, 2014, 04:55:07 pm
@Vaan, thanks for listening!

--

Source Compositions

Here are two more pieces (this time composed by my father rather than me): Sleeping (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/ffhackticks/tethical/Sleeping/Sleeping.mp3) and Dreaming (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/ffhackticks/tethical/Dreaming/Dreaming.mp3).


Programmatic Variations on Source Compositions



Follow-up Questions

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I think I've found something that's effectively the palette swap for music. As I don't have an ear for music, it's important to have other people's opinion on these questions:


Thanks.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: 3lric on September 22, 2014, 06:21:14 pm
After listening to the bulk of them, I think I liked the dreaming version of Whimsical the most.

1. Yes, something like PSX Era.

2. Not really, more like LoZ dungeon music, but that's just my opinion.

3. Most of these sleeping and dreaming do sound rather similar, however, some of them sounded different enough to where you wouldn't notice it
as much in the heat of battle. (If it was the case that the song was being used for a battle rather than an event) they do this with several songs in
FFT. Slowed down or slight changes/additions

Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on September 22, 2014, 07:56:30 pm
I liked Sleeping Subdued Epic the most.

1-Certainly it would.

2-It sounded alot like some FFXII dungeon music mashed up with LoZ but coming out of a 32-bit console like PS1.

3-Yeah it was all pretty similar :/
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Angel on September 23, 2014, 01:25:35 pm
I definitely prefer the Dreaming tracks overall, but they're mostly harsh on the ear, if I'm honest.

1. Definitely. Absolutely definitely.
2. No, doesn't remind me of FFT. Still PSX-era JRPG (occasionally had a fleeting memory of Legend of Dragoon go through my head), but not FFT specifically.
3. A bit. It all felt of a limited palette and progression template, but if it were smoothed out a bit, it could be excellent background music. A wider sample of instruments with less reverb would go a very long way.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on September 30, 2014, 10:12:50 am
Reconfigured Variations

"Sleeping": Intense (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/ffhackticks/tethical/Sleeping/Intense.mp3) and Conclusive (2nd attempt) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/ffhackticks/tethical/Sleeping/Conclusive-2.mp3)

"Dreaming": Intense (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/ffhackticks/tethical/Dreaming/Intense.mp3)


Internal Changes

I think I'm going to run with this level of completion, since I should be able to adapt the handful of pieces I have.

Something unrelated (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/ffhackticks/tethical/Arcade%20Jingle.mp3) from the Jingles collection.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on September 30, 2014, 10:35:57 am
I liked alot Conclusive Sleeping for a battle, Intense Dreaming i could imagine it like either the FFT opening and main menu song or the game over song. The jingle would sound nice after you choose New Game or Load Game
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Angel on September 30, 2014, 02:02:48 pm
Sleeping Intense: A bit too percussion-heavy for the flavor of the song. Soften that, and I think we have a winner, because it is so much closer to the desired sound than any of the others before it.
Dreaming Intense: This struck me as FFT meets Wind Waker, which is still on the right track.
Sleeping Conclusive (2nd attempt): To be honest, this sounds less like MIDI and more like extremely low bitrate Ogg. So, so muffled. Difficult to form an opinion on, because I feel like I haven't really heard the song.

Going by your description of changes, though, I'm guessing any such criticisms could be mitigated?
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on September 30, 2014, 05:02:53 pm
@Vaan - There is an optional battle in need of such music, and I may well use your suggestion. The unreleated: Neo-Geo Boot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBGHHMfk9Ew).

--

At some point, there will be an interface where all the configurations can be changed/visualized. Thinking about dropping the sprites into that interface with musical instrument sprites (similar to the channel promo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCCkBkNIpnY)).

Settings from last time were 125% percussion velocity/strength.


Settings from last time were reverb level at 13%, with chorus, and 89% percussion velocity.


As always, thanks for helping out with this.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on September 30, 2014, 06:06:48 pm
Both Less 1's sounded better compared to the others, at least to me.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on October 05, 2014, 03:01:39 am
Okay, so the changes you guys have noted have been used, and that's how they'll play out in the demos. Thank you. In other news, I have written an importer for MIDI files into this format, and I'd like to give you guys the opportunity to suggest a song you might want to hear in some other emotion. The test subject I used to write the importer needed a complicated song, and, well, it's Frozen's "Let it Go". Don't close the thread in disgust! I generated a Halloween-esque version that I think is worth listening to: Let it Go (Imported) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Let%20It%20Go/Normal.mp3) and Let it Go (Sinister) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Let%20It%20Go/Sinister.mp3).
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on October 05, 2014, 09:41:11 am
Well definitively Sinister version sounds better than the actual thing.
As much as i'd like to listen to my favorite songs in FFT style, I think it would be better if you tried to convert rpg songs to FFT style, because RPG songs are songs that make you feel like fighting, that cheer you up, that strenghten you up, so here are some suggestions of my fav RPG songs:





Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Angel on October 05, 2014, 11:14:38 am


Anything you want to do with this, I'm game. King of Fighters Symphonic Sound Trax blew my mind with the dramatic way it changed the feel of some songs just by changing the instrumental arrangement, so really, I'm down for anything.



vs Symphonic:

Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on October 05, 2014, 07:14:50 pm
@Vaan - I could only find MIDI files for the two FF5 songs. Coincidentally, there are songs available for Disgaea (the first one) and Grandia (the first one). Couldn't find much of anything for Persona. If you'd like to pick other songs, that's fine by me. Thanks.

--

Guilty Gear XX

Blue Water, Blue Sky (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Guilty Gear XX/Blue Water, Blue Sky/Normal.mp3) and Blue Water, Blue Sky (Bad News) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Guilty Gear XX/Blue Water, Blue Sky/Bad News.mp3).

Bonus:
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on October 05, 2014, 08:35:54 pm
http://www.ehow.com/how_6121955_convert-audio-video-midi.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_6121955_convert-audio-video-midi.html)

www.youtube-mp3.org (http://www.youtube-mp3.org)

Use those and you can convert the videos into MIDI :v
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Angel on October 05, 2014, 09:56:54 pm
It later occurred to me that there should be two different MIDI versions of Blue Water Blue Sky to start from (arcade, which is rougher than rough; and Dreamcast, which is much more pleasing to the ear). Curious if you used either of those, or converted to MIDI like Vaan is directing.

In either case, it's surreal to hear a very familiar song interpreted so many ways... It's a lot easier to critique exactly what is going on when the song being manipulated is one you know by heart, and it's kind of fascinating to take in those tonality changes and get a completely different vibe.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on October 05, 2014, 10:09:06 pm
I used the one by "Feathers" on this page: VGMusic - Sony Playstation 2 Music (http://www.vgmusic.com/music/console/sony/ps2/).

I think the process for converting to a MIDI is too involved for this/me (i.e. requires actually knowing the piece's instruments, would require retouching vocal notes in the Persona Q track, etc; you cannot trust me with music or flying airship designs).

Also, if it is of interest, I have 49 musical scales (i.e. modes) that you can call in 12 different notes (i.e. keys; A, A#, B, etc), and that's 588 different variations in 1 octave. And there are of course 100+ instruments that you can swap in and out.

An example is the "Normal" one is written in "C Ionian", which is just: C, D, E, F, G, A, B. Whereas, the "Bad News" one moves it into the "C Chromatic" scale, which is: C, Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B. Epic is "C Insen": C, C#, F, G, A#. Sinister (Edgy) is "C Istrian": C, C#, D#, E, F#, G. Rebellious is "C Gypsy": C, D, D#, F#, G, G#, A#.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on October 05, 2014, 10:25:10 pm
Well Prinny dood, you can just convert the 2 FFV songs i said, i'd like to hear them while i try to remember any other cool rpg songs.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on October 07, 2014, 12:37:18 am
Final Fantasy 5

"Battle Theme"

Battle Theme (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF5/Battle%20Theme/Normal.mp3) and Battle Theme (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF5/Battle%20Theme/Intense.mp3).

Bonus:


"Clash on the Big Bridge"

Clash on the Big Bridge (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF5/Clash%20on%20the%20Big%20Bridge/Normal.mp3) and Clash on the Big Bridge (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF5/Clash%20on%20the%20Big%20Bridge/Intense.mp3).

Bonus:
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on October 07, 2014, 11:08:35 am
I liked Battle Theme (Intense) and Clash on the Big Bridge (Piqued) more.


Here's a new list of rpg songs, took me a while to remember those. Oh the nostalgia that i have now.






Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on October 08, 2014, 07:59:44 am
Chrono Trigger

Frog's Theme (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Chrono%20Trigger/Frog%27s%20Theme/Normal.mp3) and Frog's Theme (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Chrono%20Trigger/Frog%27s%20Theme/Intense.mp3).

Bonus:


I will get to the rest of that list sometime later this week. Thanks.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: Vaan on October 08, 2014, 12:19:46 pm
Frog's Theme (Intense) is my fav, although i could imagine whimsical in a pub and bright on some mystic forest or something. Also, take your time;
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on October 14, 2014, 12:36:57 pm
Final Fantasy X

Battle Theme

Battle Theme (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FFX/Battle%20Theme/Normal.mp3).

Variations:


Too much stuff going on with this track to FFT-ize it. Had to rewrite a large part of my playback/sequencing code to deal with the 8 different tempo changes this MIDI used, but that's done now. Also, had to go out and find a different soundfont (collection of instrument audio) to make it sound right-ish. Auto-panning for notes got added in the process of trying to get the music to sound right under reverb plus the usual instruments I use for the FFT style.

--

Final Fantasy 6

Celes' Theme

Celes' Theme (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF6/Celes%27%20Theme/Normal.mp3) and Celes' Theme (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF6/Celes%27%20Theme/Intense.mp3).

Couldn't get this one to sound anything other than sad. Will have to study this piece later.


Final Fantasy 4

Red Wings

Red Wings (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF4/Red%20Wings/Normal.mp3) and Red Wings (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FF4/Red%20Wings/Intense.mp3).


Golden Sun 2

Isaac Battle

Isaac Battle (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Golden%20Sun%202/Isaac%20Battle/Normal.mp3) and Isaac Battle (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Golden%20Sun%202/Isaac%20Battle/Intense.mp3).


Final Fantasy Tactics A2

Painful Battle

Painful Battle (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FFTA2/Painful%20Battle/Normal.mp3) and Painful Battle (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/FFTA2/Painful%20Battle/Intense.mp3).
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: 3lric on October 14, 2014, 07:35:21 pm
These are awesome Lirmont, well done.

Do you think you could give these two a try?
I'm going to be using them as new tracks in Jot5 Ch2

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53561892/Sweet%20Dreams%20are%20made%20of%20screams.mp3

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53561892/Yiruma%20-%20Dream%20A%20Little%20Dream%20of%20me%20-%20Piano.mp3


If you need, I also have the sheet music for these, if that might help.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on October 15, 2014, 03:22:14 am
Yiruma

Dream a Little Dream of Me

Dream a Little Dream of Me (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Yiruma/Dream%20a%20Little%20Dream%20of%20Me/Normal.mp3) and Dream a Little Dream of Me (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/Yiruma/Dream%20a%20Little%20Dream%20of%20Me/Intense.mp3).

Bonus:


myuuji

Jeff the Killer

Jeff the Killer (Normal) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/myuuji/Jeff%20the%20Killer/Normal.mp3) and Jeff the Killer (Intense) (http://darkabstraction.com/showOff/music/myuuji/Jeff%20the%20Killer/Intense.mp3).

Bonus:


--

If you're interested in a close alternative in FFT to the pizzicato strings used in the intense versions, 33-37 and 26 are all close.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: 3lric on October 15, 2014, 04:31:29 am
Wow, you did an amazing job with these Lirmont!

The only issue is I can't decide which ones I like best :D

Well player sir!
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on December 02, 2014, 04:55:53 pm
Tethical Music Engine




Special thanks to everyone in this thread; the video's idea came from your suggestions. The video runs through back-to-back 15-second previews of some of the stuff you've already heard, but it adds something new by providing audio waveforms that use the game logo of the music.

Thanks.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: mav on December 29, 2014, 09:32:12 pm
Holy titballs, this is incredible. All versions of the Dream a Little Dream of Me and Jeff the Killer tracks sound exceptional. I feel like the simplicity of the original tracks allowed the variations to come out much more professionally than the other tracks in this thread. Phenomenal work, Lirmont. I wish I could do something to support you guys.

If you need financial support or maybe some simple QA, I'd love to help out.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on December 30, 2014, 02:20:59 am
Thanks. There's less to cause conflict in simple pieces, for sure. Also, conflicts can be fixed and improvements can be added on a per-configuration basis by someone who actually knows what they're doing musically (re: professional orchestration). Unfortunately, that is not something I am capable of doing.

--

Here's my attempt to use this feature in a standard day-night cycle.



I've also just hooked up support for non-standard tunings, so music that doesn't exist in the standard tuning can be played natively. They're based on different ratios, and so they use different frequencies. Some of them can be read about here: Non-Western scales (wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_%28music%29#Non-Western_scales). I haven't gone out and found a MIDI file that makes use of this yet, but I will update this post with one at some point. There are 4,400+ such scales.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: mav on December 30, 2014, 07:24:01 pm
Fascinating. It's blowing my mind that you've implemented so many different elements to Tethical. And so cohesively at that.

Anyways, from what I can tell, it sounds like you're looking for a music theorist as well as a composer of sorts. I'm not sure where to find such people but I did notice someone recently introduce themselves (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=10509.0) to FFHacktics as a musician. There's also a fella on YouTube named William Kage. His channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrCOtkIukRBCVFajTI8XJ1A) has garnered a lot of attention. He's taken some old school SNES soundfonts and made some beautiful new compositions. Assuming he has the time and necessary capabilities, he could do wonders for making a couple cohesive soundtracks for Tethical.

If nothing else, his YouTube channel has some great tracks.
Title: Re: FFT-Like Music
Post by: lirmont on January 01, 2015, 04:24:13 am
Thanks for sharing that channel. That's what I envision someone who knows what they're doing would choose to do, bypassing all this (except maybe for playback). This is mostly geared at reconfiguring music that doesn't fit so that it does (without needing musical knowledge yourself). I'd certainly love to have music like that available, however soundfonts sampled off of actual games like that are illegal. So I wouldn't be able to hand content that falls into that category out exactly like it was meant to be (and would have to find close alternatives) even if someone generously let this project use it. I do already have a rewriting system in place to automatically change instruments (since this feature grew out of wanting to play and analyze FFT's music in a similar fashion), but new alternatives to heavily synthesized instruments would probably have to be created (since there's probably not a standard musical instrument that can take their place).

--

Micro-Tuned Music

Again, this music is not being played in a standard tuning. It's based off of a different ratio. This tuning is known as "Bhairavi", and can be read about on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhairavi_%28Hindustani%29). Unfortunately, it appears that my existing library of tricks does not work quite the same way outside of standard tunings. The output is nevertheless interesting.

Basant Mukhari (the Bhairavi, an Indian raag):
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