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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Mudvayne

August 19, 2015, 11:47:35 am #1800 Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 11:52:49 am by Mudvayne
I also still propose changing Geomancys formula from (MA+2)/2*PA to (MA+3)/2*PA. I've proposed this before but no-one ever really agrees with me. Since there has been suggestions to improve Geomancers base stats (which IMO are fine), I think maybe changing the Elemental formula (instead/as well?) would be nice. It not only helps Geomancers but any unit using Elemental which we mostly all can agree on, does have a pretty meh damage output even though it is instant, unevadable, and can trigger status procs. There are other unevadable moves with much higher AoE, higher damage output, can trigger status effects (Silf inflicing Dont Move/Dont Act while being unevadable), so I just feel like Elemental just lacks in comparison. This small buff won't make Elemental all of a sudden super appealing and OP, but it can make the damage output just slightly higher on elemental to give it that littttle extra oomph it needs IMO to actually be relevant on more units than just MA stacked units specifically built for elemental or having to rely on buffing  your PA/MA either through Accumulate/Focus, PA/MA Save, Magic/Battle Song, etc before getting a good damage output.

Plus, having it be MA+3 may not actually be all that more useful unless you end up with an odd ending MA stat, correct? Say you're 10 MA, so + 3 /2, would give you 6.5 * PA which I think FFT rounds down to 6 * PA? Do I understand that right? So it actually would only buff units that do end in an odd numbered MA stat?

dw6561

Unless I'm wrong, isn't the geomancy formula (PA+2)/2*MA? Also, geomancy is free (no MP cost) compared to those other AOE attacks that do pretty much the same thing, so the lower damage is a good trade off in my opinion.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Barren

Maybe we should also increase the geomancy status proc to 25%?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Reks

Quote from: dw6561 on August 19, 2015, 02:55:54 pm
Unless I'm wrong, isn't the geomancy formula (PA+2)/2*MA? Also, geomancy is free (no MP cost) compared to those other AOE attacks that do pretty much the same thing, so the lower damage is a good trade off in my opinion.


Geomancy is:

Free (doesn't cost MP)
Instant
AoE
Unblockable
Procs various status

So in my eyes, while it's among my favorite skills to use, strengthening it is a bit iffy, even if it's increasing just a single number in it's formula.

Increasing the n in (PA+n)/2*MA won't really do much.

Right now it's a 2, but in the case of the /2, it'll be rounded down.

So say you increase it to 3, and the unit in question has 12 PA and MA.

It'd then become (12+3)/2*12. The (12+3) would come first, so 15/2*12, and it'd end up being 7*12.

And it always rounds down. So you'd need 13 PA for it to become 8*12.



All it would really do is lower the PA required by 1 to achieve the higher number that's multiplied against your MA.

Which doesn't really say for much since MA is still the meatier part of the formula, and ignoring that would make your damage suffer.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

gatebuster202

As a Geo Builder this SCC, women were my focus in this due to the MA pump. In regular, when I can double my equipment up, It's Rune Blade, Genji Shield, Twisted Headband, Power Sleeve, 108 Gems. So PA is Now 12, MA is 11. So that's 77 Flat (PA +2/2 = 7 *11) + Boosted Elements, + MA Attack Up... Roughly 120, no evade, weakness can be applied, statuses can proc. Faith doesn't matter if I remember my tests.

Hit two units, and land a lucky stop, DM, DA... (OR cast it two times for most of people's HP. Scholars or any decent poke equals a kill.

+ At that MA and PA Yin Yang, Black and White Magic, Summon and Martial Arts(Maybe) become viable. Take the most common 4 or five geomancy and two utility spells on them. (Ouch.)

So, In my opinion, don't touch Geomancy. It's balanced that it caps at 120 or so reliable damage from a shorter range, and to do it right means the unit can't do much else. (See low MP totals.) Other Units hit harder from further away with better set ups. OR close faster and are in your face.
  • Modding version: PSX
Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

Reks

Quote from: gatebuster202 on August 19, 2015, 03:46:58 pm
As a Geo Builder this SCC, women were my focus in this due to the MA pump. In regular, when I can double my equipment up, It's Rune Blade, Genji Shield, Twisted Headband, Power Sleeve, 108 Gems. So PA is Now 12, MA is 11. So that's 77 Flat (PA +2/2 = 7 *11) + Boosted Elements, + MA Attack Up... Roughly 120, no evade, weakness can be applied, statuses can proc. Faith doesn't matter if I remember my tests.

Hit two units, and land a lucky stop, DM, DA... (OR cast it two times for most of people's HP. Scholars or any decent poke equals a kill.

+ At that MA and PA Yin Yang, Black and White Magic, Summon and Martial Arts(Maybe) become viable. Take the most common 4 or five geomancy and two utility spells on them. (Ouch.)

So, In my opinion, don't touch Geomancy. It's balanced that it caps at 120 or so reliable damage from a shorter range, and to do it right means the unit can't do much else. (See low MP totals.) Other Units hit harder from further away with better set ups. OR close faster and are in your face.


And can be increased further.

I have a snowballing team that builds MA with Song and Focus.

While building up to stupid damage is obviously what it's for, even after a few uses of both the damage went from 120 to 160 and above.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Mudvayne

Oops I did write the formula wrong, I did mean change it to (PA+3)/2*MA. Adding that 3 in there WON'T make a huge difference unless you do end up with an odd ending PA* point, meaning it won't make it super OP but does offer the chance to ever so slightly boost your damage output if you use say, the Mystic Blade that adds +1 MA/PA which could leave you with an odd ending PA stat if that was the only PA boosting gear you use.

Maybe (PA+3)/2*(MA+1)? Like I said I am not proposing being able to do 180 damage geomancy on every unit making it super OP. I just find it averages out at <100 damage on most units unless every item is there to boost MA and the unit has magic attack up and 108 gems for elemental boosting also. That's a lot of requirements to buff a unit to do only mediocre damage.

What is the status proc rate currently for Geomancy? 20%? Upping to 25% doesn't seem too out of line. Not 25% and an increased damage formula though, one or the other.

Reks

Quote from: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 03:55:29 pm
Oops I did write the formula wrong, I did mean change it to (PA+3)/2*MA. Adding that 3 in there WON'T make a huge difference unless you do end up with an odd ending PA* point, meaning it won't make it super OP but does offer the chance to ever so slightly boost your damage output if you use say, the Mystic Blade that adds +1 MA/PA which could leave you with an odd ending PA stat if that was the only PA boosting gear you use.

Maybe (PA+3)/2*(MA+1)? Like I said I am not proposing being able to do 180 damage geomancy on every unit making it super OP. I just find it averages out at <100 damage on most units unless every item is there to boost MA and the unit has magic attack up and 108 gems for elemental boosting also. That's a lot of requirements to buff a unit to do only mediocre damage.

What is the status proc rate currently for Geomancy? 20%? Upping to 25% doesn't seem too out of line. Not 25% and an increased damage formula though, one or the other.


The mediocre damage is not the catching point of Geomancy, though.

That it inflicts status is pretty powerful.

That it's instant, unevadable, and AoE? It really doesn't need to be doing stupid-high damage.



So yes while the damage is mediocre, it DOES build up. It's just not stellar on units that don't have the stats to make the damage worthwhile.



Though a weapon (like a gun, perhaps) that cast a geomancy spell on attack would be kinda nifty.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Mudvayne

August 19, 2015, 04:07:45 pm #1808 Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 04:20:19 pm by Mudvayne
I think a gun or maybe a book (since it does use a similar type formula using both PA/MA) that procs/shoots geomancy would be super cool. I think maybe adding a demi gun and maybe a geomancy book or something would be pretty unique additions.

Speaking of books... They seem to be a pretty under used weapon class entirely. I don't think I've personally ever used a unit that focused on using a book, and can't really remember or reference any teams that have. Not proposing anything since I'm drawing a blank, but it does seem to be pretty much the least used weapon type besides maybe Cloths.

On the subject of cloths, I know they are Dancer-specific weapons since Vanilla, but normally Dancers will opt out for a different weapon most of the time. Would maybe allowing other classes to use Cloths allow them to see more use also? Change their stats/buffs? It's a small class of only 3 weapons, but still. Between books and cloths, there was only 1 unit using either weapon type in the SCC tourney. I can't remember the stats for books/cloths from the previous tournament, but I'd be willing to assume it's probably around 1 use for both weapon types also.

gatebuster202

Honestly, Geo procing at 25% would be the only change I'd consider after thinking all day on it. Now, if the Books cast four of our Geomancies, that would be nice. (Not the Stop procs, or Don't Act.) Honestly a Cancel:Charging would be good. I'd even sacrifice the Stop for that, and then might consider a PA+1 overall in exchange for losing stop of the potential status list. Though, IF we do cancel: Charge and remove Stop, I'd really only think that's balanced if we go to 25% proc.

@Reks, I had considering synergy. It gets stupid with good Ability Synergy. Basic Skill, Sing, Earth Absorbing MA Save. Yeah, I'll consider using them in my Regular Season as the heavy hitters. (Maybe Celes gets ported to my regular team, since she has like, seven ninja kills.)
  • Modding version: PSX
Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

Mudvayne

Damage split is also pretty meh. Maybe up it to 40% from 33%?

Kurosabes


Some of the Elemental abilities are very situational. What are the odds of someone using Lava Ball or Quicksand? Maps could be changed, if not completely redesigned, to see some of the less common Elemental skills in action more often. The same goes for the most common ones being toned down. This won't happen in 140 due to the sheer amount of time investment this would require, especially since in many cases it wouldn't just be limited to some panel changes. But when the time comes for it I'd be willing to learn and help.


I wanted to add something about the Shieldrender. I feel it's quite similar to Dual Cutters, but weaker in every aspect except it can break shields (which still has a chance to fail). Dual Cutters come with +1 Move, higher WP and W-EV, and with two of them, you're almost guaranteed an extra attack. So either 2S or more W-EV on the Shieldrender (at least 20) wouldn't be farfetched in my opinion. I'd even throw in both.
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  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Barren

Maybe we can change one of the daggers to swordbreaker which can have a chance to proc weapon break
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You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

Quote from: Mudvayne on August 19, 2015, 04:07:45 pmSpeaking of books... They seem to be a pretty under used weapon class entirely. I don't think I've personally ever used a unit that focused on using a book, and can't really remember or reference any teams that have. Not proposing anything since I'm drawing a blank, but it does seem to be pretty much the least used weapon type besides maybe Cloths.


Books are hard to use.  The only class with PA and MA high enough for decent damage is scholars, and scholars, being squishy as they are, usually keep their fury at 40 and cast magic from a safe distance.  If scholars get redesigned (fingers crossed), I would like to give them more HP as well as shields so that they can use books more safely.

Cloths aren't used because Dancers aren't used, haha.  Maybe we could give both Bard/Dancers and Netherseers cloths in a future patch.

dw6561

Quote from: Barren on August 20, 2015, 07:08:42 am
Maybe we can change one of the daggers to swordbreaker which can have a chance to proc weapon break


That seems like it would be kind of broken (no pun intended) if it had too high of a proc rate since most melee units would be severely handicapped by having no weapon. Though I guess it would be balanced in that weapon break itself is percentage based.

Quote from: Gaignun on August 20, 2015, 07:30:40 am
Books are hard to use.  The only class with PA and MA high enough for decent damage is scholars, and scholars, being squishy as they are, usually keep their fury at 40 and cast magic from a safe distance.  If scholars get redesigned (fingers crossed), I would like to give them more HP as well as shields so that they can use books more safely.

Cloths aren't used because Dancers aren't used, haha.  Maybe we could give both Bard/Dancers and Netherseers cloths in a future patch.


I do agree that books are hard to use. And if the changes to scholar do happen, there is probably no need to tamper with the books themselves because they seem to be balanced at the moment. Although I do think that monster dict could have less WP and/or a different proc.

As for giving cloths to bard/dancer and netherseer, I think that's a great idea. I've never been enticed to use a dancer because of the cloths though, even if they do give buffs. Maybe cloths should be changed some to make them more attractive, or we can use the equip polearm idea.

Some Side Notes:
How is the AI going to deal with having both sing/dance abilities in one skill set, if we are merging them?

What does "proc" mean anyway? I've been told it's short for procedure or process but I've been stumped on that for ages.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Barren

In short "proc" mean programmed random occurance. It triggers under the correct circumstances. Elemental is a prime example of that.

Just like when we use the term "sand bag" it's a resurrection/healing chain. The sand bagging can continue until the loop gets broken
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

August 21, 2015, 04:34:21 am #1816 Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 09:54:58 am by Gaignun
I do not know the precise origin, but the first person I heard use the term "sandbag" in the way it is used now was Archae.l (I love the word filter Xifanie), an old commentator of FFT 1.3 AI tournaments and Let's Plays.  It's a bit of a misappropriation: In English, "to sandbag" is used in the context of sports to mean "playing at less than optimum performance for selfish gain."  As an example, in the London 2012 Summer Games, several badminton teams attempted to intentionally lose games in order to improve their positioning in later rounds.  These teams were accused of "sandbagging" and were disqualified.


I am taking a break from work to summarize all of my personal proposals for 1.40 so far.  There have been a lot of ideas tossed around recently, so I'm summarizing everything here for ease of reference.  Some proposals reflect those contributed by other users; other proposals are entirely new.


PALADIN: +5 C-EV
MONK: -15 MP, -1 PA (To avoid crazy Netherseer damage and encourage Focus Band use; for non-casters, the PA loss is compensated with a headband buff; see below)
SUMMONER: +20 MP
LANCER: +1 SP, -1 Jump, can now equip robes
SAMURAI: +1 PA, -1 MA, can now equip longbows and poles
SCHOLAR: Redesigned
--- Male | Female
HP 134 | 125
MP 086 | 092
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 08 | 10
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 0 | 0
Can equip Sword, Rod, Staff, Book, Pole, Shield, Helmet, Armor, Robe, Accessory
BARD/DANCER: Merged into a single class
--- Male | Female
HP 144 | 135
MP 067 | 072
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 10 | 12
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Knife, Sword, Harp, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Accessory
Netherseer: New class
--- Male | Female
HP 113 | 106
MP 072 | 077
SP 08 | 08
PA 12 | 10
MA 06 | 08
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Sword, Ninjatou, Book, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robe, Accessory


Basic skill:
Heal: Range increased from 1 to 3, now heals Innocent as well
Wish: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80
Ultima: CT reduced from 5 to 3

Item
Ether: MP heal increased from 30 to 40
Hi-Ether: MP heal increased from 70 to 80
Maintenance: Changed to a movement ability

Punch Art
Revive: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80

White Magic
Protect: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Protect, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100
Shell: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Shell, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100.
Regen: Moved to Lore

Black Magic
Poison: Moved to Lore
Frog: Moved to Yin Yang Magic
Death: Moved to Lore
Bio: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Bio 2: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Magic Missile: New skill, Dmg_B(MA*WP), Weapon element, 5 Rng, 6 MP, 0 CT, 200 JP

Time Magic
Haste: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Slow: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Stop: Accuracy modifier decreased from 70 to 65
Half of MP: Inherited from Summon Magic

Summon Magic
Titan: Now ignores M-EV, MP cost increased from 25 to 35, JP cost increased from 150 to 250
Carbunkle: MP cost removed
Half of MP: Moved to Time Magic

Steal
Heretic: Moved to Ninjutsu
Bad Luck: CT cost decreased from 4 to 0
Quickening: Removed from the game
Awareness: Moved to Lore

Yin Yang Magic
Frog: Received from Black Magic

Jump
CT formula changed from 50/SP to 21/Jump

Draw Out
Bizen Boat: AoE reduced from 2 to 1, Range increased from 0 to 1
Heaven's Cloud: Slow proc rate increased from 20% to 25%
Muramasa: Death Sentence proc rate increased from 20% to 25%

Ninjutsu
Heretic: Received from Steal
Misogi: New skill, Removes Blind/Silence/Poison/Slow/Don't Move, Self-target, 0 CT, 0 MP, 100 JP

Lore
Mad Science: Given to Nether Magic
Bio: Given to Black Magic
Bio 2: Given to Black Magic
Bio 3: Removed from the game
Poison: Inherited from Black Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Regen: Inherited from White Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Death: Inherited from Black Magic
Tornado: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Protect/Shell, Wind element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Quake: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Haste/Regen, Earth element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Damage Split: Given to Netherseer
Awareness: Inherited from Steal, now also applies EV even when charging/performing

Sing/Dance
All songs and dances are combined into a single skill set

Nether Magic (new skill set)
Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Dark Holy: Dmg_B(PA*15), Dark elemental, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 300 JP
Mad Science: Inherited from Lore, CT reduced from 4 to 3
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Damage Split: Inherited from Lore


Swords
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Shieldrender: Redesign?
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

Katana
Kotetsu Knife: WP increased from 9 to 10
Masamune: SP increased from -2 to -1, now adds Slow and Stop immunity

Staves
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

Guns
Mythril Gun: Changed to Demi Gun, Casts Demi, ignores M-EV, 6 Rng, Forced Two-Hands

Longbows
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Atheist Bow: Innocent proc rate decreased from 100% to 50%, Range increased from 4 to 5

Spears
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, +2 Jump
Spear/Mythril Spear/Partisan/Holy Lance: Redesign?

Poles
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

Cloths
Redesign?

Bags
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add MP Regen (or not if this not a trivial hack)

Shields
Genji Shield: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Aegis Shield: M-EV decreased from 30 to 25
Mirror Shield: New shield, 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield, 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen (Modified version of Reks' Bulwark)

Headbands
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

Armor
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence

Accessories
Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump (for mad hops)
N-Kai Armlet: Gains Darkness immunity
108 Gems: Gains Faith/Innocent immunity


That's all for now.  Back to work :<

Barren

Can we also add the immune death sentence to the genji shield and the gold armor? It prevents the AI from doing something foolish and let the enemy roam freely for a couple of turns and then DS failing spectulary
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

August 21, 2015, 09:07:50 am #1818 Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 10:32:34 am by Gaignun
Sure.  The changes are added.  I also added a few accessory and bag changes that were forgotten.

Quote from: dw6561 on August 20, 2015, 04:52:55 pmHow is the AI going to deal with having both sing/dance abilities in one skill set, if we are merging them?


My educated guess is that there will be nothing wrong with the skills themselves; the only difference between Song and Dance is the targets.  There might be difficulty with the performing animation, though.  Every skillset thus far uses only one type of animation if I'm not mistaken, and Song and Dance use different animations.

Mudvayne

August 21, 2015, 12:36:53 pm #1819 Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 12:44:01 pm by Mudvayne
Most of the proposed changes there I can get behind, Gaignun. I don't care for the 8 PA and 12 MA on the female Bard/Dancer class, though. It overpowers a female scholar who is only coming in at 10 MA and isn't female Wizards only 12 MA as well? Dancerbard shouldn't have the highest MA stat on a female unit, IMO. That doesn't seem right.

Male Netherseers with 12 PA are also pretty damn strong considering their skill set. I'm not entirely sold on the netherseer skill set having the skills be PA*X, it's not hard to get units with 18-20 PA like a monk for example who would now be able to successfully cast spells coming in at 250+ damage as well as doing 250+ damage punch arts? Ehhh.. Maybe something like (PA+MA)/2*X? I'm not sure how great that would work but I just feel like it would be pretty easy to make the Netherseer class and skill set pretty OP.

Also, I forget, is UnF now UnFury or UnFaith? And is that based off of your fury/faith, or the targets fury/faith, or both?