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FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread

Started by silentkaster, August 08, 2016, 03:57:10 pm

silentkaster

Well, with the proposed change of Immune: Innocent going to Aegis Shield, I wouldn't mind the current Secular Shield becoming an Immune: Blind shield so that you now have the choice. It gives players a lot of choices. Do they want to absorb the element, add PA, Strengthen the element or get Blind Immunity with their shield slot? It could just be renamed the Bronze Shield if needing a name.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

September 23, 2016, 03:51:04 pm #81 Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:56:17 pm by Gaignun
I can get behind that.  Something like

Bronze Shield: 15 PEv, 15 MEv, Immune: Blind

PEv is boosted by 5 to put the shield on par with the other options.  We can discuss the exact Ev values later.  Apart from Grand Cross, the shield can also be used to counter Blind Rage, etc.

Gaignun

Apologies for the double post.

How might we obtain consensus on changes for the next patch?  There are currently a ton of suggestions in the suggestions list as of 25 September. Many of these suggestions are incompatible.  (Shuriken alone has four separate suggestions.) Still many more are contingent on the implementation of others.  It would be infeasible to vote on each and every suggestion.

Might I suggest we isolate the skills, equipment, and jobs in most dire need of change and focus on only those in the next patch?  Smaller matters, as well as matters that might require extensive work (e.g., creating new active and RSM skills), could be relegated to a future patch.

dw6561

I agree. We are really just suggesting things like crazy because we get inspiration and ideas, but we need to weed out the actual important stuff from the creative "this would be cool" ideas. I don't think the suggestions list is really getting us anywhere anymore, it's kinda just there. I keep saying that we need to establish a priority cue, but it's difficult when we keep suggesting things and don't do anything with them.

Here's a list of what I, personally, feel we need to take a look at for the next patch. I had a rant typed up about how we need a new system but I don't want to be too strict...

My list is in this format:

Jobs: If a job needs something about it changed, like equipment/stats/etc, put it here
Skill Sets: If a skill set has skills that need to be looked at, list them and those skills here
Weapons: Put any weapons that need changes here
Shields: Put any shields that need changes here
Armor: Put any armor that needs changes here
Accessories: Put any accessories that need changes here
Statuses: Put statuses that need their protection/infliction/attributes/etc re-evaluated here


Jobs: Paladin, Summoner, Dancer

Skill Sets:
Basic Skill - Concentrate, Luck Up
White Magic - Raise 2, Piety
Chivalry - Lay on Hands
Punch Art - All damaging punch arts, Chakra, Martial Arts
Time Magic - Slow 2
Elemental - All non-elemental geomancies, Counter Flood
Ninjitsu - Shuriken
Steal - Roulette
Dance - Everything

Weapons:
All Spell Guns
Holy Lance
Javelin
Any crossbow besides Atma Bow or Gastrafitis
Staves other than healing/wizard
Meteor Rod

Shields:
Aegis Shield

Armor:
Triangle Hat
Golden Hairpin
Mythril Helmet

Accessories:
Cursed Ring

Statuses: Berserk, Undead, Slow, Sap
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Shintroy

The suggestion list is pretty flawed since it leads to bias and lead to unnecessary arguing. 140 worked because it was a community effort. There's no need for leaders or any hierarchy.


Jobs:
Mime - More HP
Monk - Balanced PA, 12(M), 10(F)
Samurai - 4 Move
Summoner - 10-15 C-EV

Skill Sets - Archer, Dancer,
Archer - Hawk's Eye
Bard - Nameless Song
Chemist - Phoenix Pinion, Phoenix Down(still vanilla)
Dancer - Everything
Mediator - Warn, add Wall(Reflect too low prioity and situational to be AI friendly)
Monk - All Physical Arts and Chakra. Martial Arts only works when Unarmed.
Ninja - Shuriken Give it an improved Gil Toss formula with 25% add poison. Still costs MP
Priest - Cure 1-4, Raise 2, Holy
Samurai - Bizen Boat
Scholar - Lore, Mad Science, Melt
Summoner - Bahamut, Zodiac, Cyclops
Thief - Roulette
Time Mage - Haste 2, Slow 2
Wizard - Dark Holy, Poison

Weapons
Cloths - All due to Dancer being balanced
Crossbows - All but Gastrophetes and Night Killer (Gastrophetes needs a name update)
Guns - Elemental Guns, Healing Gun
Katana - Chirijiraden, Muramasa
Knives - Toy Knife
Longbows - Long Bow, Poison Bow,
Ninja Swords - Hidden Knife, Iga and Koga Knife, Spell Edge
Rods - Remove joke weapons
staves - Gold Staff (12 WP), Rainbow Staff (10 WP), Wizard Staff (8 WP)
Swords - Remove Rune Blade, Change to Bag, Ultima Weapon +1 MA and PA

Shields
Crystal Shield - Always Reflect
Genji Shield - 30, 5, 1 PA, no special

Hats
Triangle Hat - Immune Faith, Innocent
Golden Hairpin

Headbands
Focus Band - POison and Sap Immunity

Helmets
Mythril Helmet - +1 Jump and Move, Immune Faith and Innocent

Clothes
Earth Clothes

Robes
Chameleon Robe

Accessories - Change all items that were balanced with weapon absorb synergy in mind. (Whale Whisker + Chantage, Air Knife + Sandstorm, etc)
Sandstorm Treks
Jade Armlet
Hyper Wrist,
Cursed Ring - Increase revival to 66%
Defense Ring
Chantage

Status Effects
Float -  Could be removed or changed into a buff that affects all elements. Maybe Half all elements?
Transparent - prevents performing?
Slow - 33%
Some day my people will be free.

Gaignun

October 02, 2016, 01:03:18 pm #85 Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 01:11:48 pm by Gaignun
Might as well post what I believe are priorities as well.  I'll intentionally keep this short:



  • Ninja lose flails OR Scorpion Tail reverts to 11 WP

  • Swap Time Mage and Summoner base HP





  • Give one skill Remove: Undead.  (Among the existing skills, Heal and Misogi are the best candidates.)

  • Buff Shuriken

  • Make offensive Punch Art formula linear to avoid runaway damage on Punch Art users that accumulate PA

  • Nerf Spin Fist slightly (e.g., remove smart targeting or reduce Vert to 0.)

  • Move Heretic to Ninjutsu

  • Fix Roulette somehow

  • Merge Caution and Awareness reaction abilities

  • Move Balance to Lore

  • Move Holy to Black Magic.  Move one or more Black status magic to another job if skill space is needed.

  • Remove Add: Regen from Masamune ONLY IF Regen and Refresh are merged.  In this event, change targeting from linear to AoE to compensate

  • Turn Lore into random fire AoE

  • Dance: Fix it!





  • Revert Scorpion Tail WP to 11 OR Ninja lose flail access

  • Nerf spell guns slightly (e.g., reduce WP or turn spell guns into books)

  • Redesign cloths to fulfill some unique role

  • Remove Hidden Knife from the game if it causes magic to pierce MEv

  • Make Rune Blade a bag OR remove Rune Blade from the game if Regen and Refresh are merged





  • Slightly nerf Aegis Shield

  • Slightly buff Genji Shield





  • Change Golden Hairpin from Strengthen: Holy, Dark to Halve: Holy, Dark.  Move Strengthen: Holy, Dark to a new or redesigned robe





  • Change Slow to -33% SP. Increase its CT if necessary.

  • Merge Regen and Refresh, as well as Poison and Sap




Other changes people think are essential are fine, too.

gatebuster202

I like all of Gaignun's suggestions. The only one I could add to that list... Change 4 Clothes
Black Costume   100   10   Absorb: Dark, Fire
Mirage Vest   100   10   Absorb: Holy, Wind
Rubber Suit   100   10   Absorb: Lighting, Earth
Aqua Suit   100   10   Absorb: Ice, Water
Replaces current elemental Clothing

Gives a balanced approach to Elemental Equipment and allows more interesting builds.
  • Modding version: PSX
Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

silentkaster

For a patch between major releases (unless we're jumping right into the next full version, which I don't think we are) I think we can be pretty concise. Having taken a look at the tournament and even what many melee teams are doing, I've tried to narrow it down to about ten changes for what I think should be in. I'm not saying that many of the other ideas aren't interesting, should or should not be implemented or whatnot, but I think we should be pretty limited as to what we introduce to the next patch. A reminder that 1.4a didn't get many changes from 1.4.


1. I think something needs to be done about the spell guns. They're pretty darn strong, unevadable, and are one shotting all over the place. My idea was to revamp them as totally different guns with more constant spells like Ultima, Balance, etc. but I think making them like a book weapon as Gaignun suggested is a pretty good idea too. That way, they're evadable, shorter range, etc.

2. Dark Holy/Holy should mirror each other and perhaps be at 15 MA each. Holy can go to Black Magic as well.

3. Swift Plate can be Immune: Haste, Immune: Slow with +1 Speed. I also think its evasion can be slightly buffed (perhaps to 10/10).

4. Heal should gain Remove: Undead and Misogi should gain Remove: Innocent.

5. Spin Fist should have its vertical removed.

6. Muramasa and Heavy Lance should change properties. (Since the design of a Samurai has very few defensive properties, I believe that the Spear could gain the 20% Decap Proc since it's more likely that a Defensive Lancer will be used. It still makes the Decap Proc exclusive to one class, while giving the Samurai the chance to Break Armor, which could actually be useful when using Elemental Draw Outs.)

7. Time Mages and Summoners swap base HP values.

8. Blind Rage loses some accuracy OR Battle Rod and Platinum Rod Switch properties. (Since it is more likely you'll be using the Platinum Sword in conjunction with a Melee unit, where you'll use a Rod with a mage type unit, it's probably more beneficial if Blind Rage stays the same to be immune to Berserk for the Mage unit. However, if we do this, I'd say rename it "Wizard Rod" so that way its name is consistent with what it means.)

9. If changing Golden Hairpin to Half: Dark, Holy, then add Clothing that strengthens it, not a robe. One of the reasons it's being discussed is that it provides a lot of MP on top of strengthening.

10. Add a point, or perhaps 2, of PA to Dancers.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

gatebuster202

Space for new Guns suggestion

To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP
  • Modding version: PSX
Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

Reks

Quote from: gatebuster202 on October 03, 2016, 05:02:28 pm
Space for new Guns suggestion

To Spellguns. We have "found" six untapped weapon slots. The Balls and Shirikens from Vanilla. WKW has tested them, and they can be used for Arena. We can turn them into Spellguns or other weapons. My suggestion is that they either be 4 range with one less weapon power and function as one handed books, or stay as 5 range guns and lose 2 WP


I would rather see weapons with fewer selections gain an extra option or two over seeing more spellguns.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Gaignun

@ gatebuster:

I like those clothes suggestions.

@ silentkaster:

I like your suggestions, too.  I would like to make two comments:

Holy/Dark Holy damage: Would it not be more consistent to make Dark Holy one point weaker than Holy?  Dark Holy is Nether Holy in all but name, and all Nether spells on Black Magic are one point weaker than their variants.  This is done to balance the safety of low brave with the risks of high faith.

Holy/Dark strengthening robe: I don't find the MP boost of a Holy/Dark strengthening robe a problem, given that we've had Black Robe for ages without any trouble. Nevertheless, making it clothes is OK with me, too.  No strong opinions here.

Shintroy

Dark Holy being as strong as Holy makes just as much sense as Holy on black magic.😂👌
Some day my people will be free.

gatebuster202

Reks, WKW and I were discussing Spellbooks casting the respective Ice/Fire/Lightning spell, leaving gun with just four options. The "books" being sourced from slots previously believed unusable. This would leave us with three new slots in general or three new guns. Ranged weapons in general don't have as much love as Melee options. I haven't composed my non-elemental gun thoughts, but when I do I will let this page know.
  • Modding version: PSX
Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

Reks

Aight, so I've given it a lot of thought, and

Well, I really don't have much of an opinion on many of the proposed changes. I DO agree where things -need- a change (Dancer), but for the most part I can't come up with a cohesive list of my own prioritized change offerings.

HOWEVER

I do have opinions towards - surprise surprise - Squires.

So, without further ado, a few things that came to mind during the dull period at work. (which is, in hindsight, pretty much all of it)

And do be aware that, yes, I am biased towards Squires a bit, so take what I say with a slight grain of salt (and not the whole damn shaker.)
Trying to be funny here, sorry if I sound a bit aggressive.



I don't like that someone (can't remember who) said that the skills in Basic Skill should be

Well

Basic, just BECAUSE they're a part of the skillset. This is a balance patch for PvP. It is extremely important that the skills here have SOMETHING desirable going for them, otherwise we're just suppressing a few skills that could be refurbished into something viable.

Stats!

Squires are pretty solid, statwise and equipment wise. I can't see any real reason to change anything, but... I do feel that Female's PA/MA is a bit out of balance, at least compared to the Male's and their Geomancer cousins. And they don't really benefit from having 8/8, as most female Squires are casters. So maybe a tiny adjustment to... I'unno, 7/9? 6/10 feels like it'd be copying Geo too much, though it'd put Males and females into perfect balance there. I mean, there are a lot of jobs for Male that share the 10 PA mark, or come extremely close to doing so, and I can see that having a very versatile job with the same MA as other jobs might give them less priority?

I dunno, they just feel unbalanced to me... Despite that they're in perfect balance at 8/8.

Skills!

Accumulate and Acla- no, calling it Focus: These two are pretty much the same skill, and nothing to really change. They're balanced, if a bit quirky with the AI's usage, and make for an okay option to grab when you wanna add a few more points of power.

Bullrush: I can't be nice here. This skill... Well, it sucks. There is literally 0 reason for anyone to grab it, or Counter Tackle, for that matter. And guess what? Tsumazuku now does the exact same thing and, while it has a tiny MP cost, it doesn't hurt you. So my suggestion is this - as Tsuma is now the (unused) answer to Masamune, make Bullrush the counter to Chivalry's Iron Will and Nurse, by forcefully removing Protect/Shell/Defending, and for that matter, remove it's P-EV penalty. The self-damage already makes it undesirable as it is, and despite that it's a free skill, the fact that it can miss just makes me overlook it every single time. This, at the very least, shouldn't make that much more desirable, but would guarantee it sees SOME use, especially since Chivalry is very popular now.

Throw Stone: Awesome as it is, nothing to say here.

Heal: Ahh, Heal. I have nothing to recommend for this except maybe adding Death Sentence or Undead removal to it. Undead is more preferred.

Yell: Well, we all know the AI loves to spam this because Haste, Haste, Haste! I really don't know what to suggest for this, as both Quickening and Mune do it's job better. Hell, Haste and Haste 2 do the job better. So if it'd be changed, rather than axed, it should add buffs that make sense.

Few of which do, so I support the newer Critical-heal skill in favor. (though that'd be used over AccumuFocus, since the AI weirdly uses those when they go into Critical.)

Wish: Oh, how I Wish you were better, but that'd probably just miss it's target. Seriously, I KNOW that Wish is supposed to be a poor man's Phoenix Down, but given the current meta of antisandbag (Via Geo, usually), it hurts any unit to carry this. The same can be said of Revive, and Fairy, but at least they're on more meta skillsets. I purposefully never touch Wish and actually recommend people AWAY from it because it runs the huge risk of getting you stuck in a easy sandbag loop. What's worse? It misses. A lot. I'm sorry, but when Raise 2's accuracy is on-par with you, AND that's almost always influenced by faith to be even higher...

Look, everything does it's job, but better, and keeping it as it is for the sake of "having the option of revival on a simple skillset" does not sell it. Phoenix Down doesn't miss. Revive heals for more. Fairy is multi-targeting.

If it CAN be done, and if nobody wants to risk making it's accuracy higher it in fear it'd make Item a less used skillset, have it work on fallen Undead units. That'd give it MASSIVE use and potential, especially if Heal gains the capability to remove Undead as well. Just

SOMETHING better than what it is currently. Please.

Ultima!: Well, my old suggestion of max(PA, MA)*9 still stands, because my latest team's demise has proven that it still is, in every way, inferior to Chiri.

Yeah, I know I've made a tangent about this before, but it's not because I think it's weak. Contrary wise, it hits as HARD as Chiri, and that's fantastic... Except that in order to do so, you have to sacrifice casting speed.

Yeah, a lot of units carry M-EV and Aegis Shields and it makes Ultima on par in the on-paper effectiveness, but when it comes down to it, Chiri being instant and easier to boost just makes Ultima go back to it's old, unused corner.

So what do I suggest, aside from the new above formula? Nothing, really. That small change will take it from it's current MA reliant state and let PA focused units use it, where it'd still largely be balanced because it has such a long casting time and would require sacrificing power at the cost of casting faster, which normally is useless on a PA Powerhouse.

[joke]Or make it's AoE 2 instead.[/joke]


Changes required in lieu of abovementioned suggestions:

Well, only one currently.

Ultima Weapon: if Ultima gains that new formula, it will need it's 2H capacity dropped, otherwise it'll become an effective 20 WP monster with an unevadable proc that hits for close to 200 each pop. And even so, it just steps on Shieldrender's toes even if it loses it's 2Hands.

I'd rather not see it lose both 2H and go back to being a 33% proc, but if that's what people require for a boost to Ultima, I suppose I can be happy with that.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Gaignun

I am fully in agreement with elevating Basic Skill to the level of... every other skill set.

Adjusting female Squires' PA and MA: If we change the female Squire's PA/MA to 7/9, then I believe we would incidentally change the male Squire's PA/MA to 9/7.  This co-dependence is why we currently have so many (generally) useless jobs in Arena (e.g., male wizard, female monk).

Bullrush: Oddly enough, I myself have considered making Bullrush unevadable.  Both this and making it cancel Protect and Shell are good ideas to me.  If Protect and Shell inherit the Refresh status as a priority flag (so that the AI uses Protect and Shell at the start of battle as they ought to), then Bullrush will have a solid role in the metagame.

Heal: In addition to adding Cancel: Undead, I would also love to see this skill receive +1 Range to put it on par with Wish.

Yell: Absolutely in favour of a redesign.  Silentkaster's critical-only heal skill is a nice idea.

Wish: I agree that this skill is the worst method of revival.  Having it ignore the Undead status wouldn't change this, but at least it would give it a niche application on Undead teams.  Perhaps we could turn Wish into the proposed Phoenix Pinion skill as an alternative.

Ultima: I think the problem has more to do with Chiri being overpowered than Ultima being underpowered.  Chiri walks all over not only Ultima, but Muramasa, as well.  If I had it my way, I would drop Chiri's damage from MA*9 to MA*8 and its JP cost from 400 to 200~300.  Then, Muramasa would become the sole MA*9 Draw Out skill.  Comparison of Ultima and Muramasa is much more charitable towards Ultima.

Barren

I was thinking about shuriken today and even though I think speed is its original formula for damage, if it needs a buff then why not do speed * 10 (or give it 0 MP cost so that way you can stack speed).

If it has to revert to its PA formula again, at least keep it single hit and doesn't phase through walls
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Gaignun

Here is something that has been kicking around the back of my mind for awhile.

RSM system redesign
How would people feel about replacing the RSM system with a "RSXM" system? The "X" in this new system stands for "Equip X."

Currently, we have seven "Equip X" abilities.  In spite of this, only 20 units used an Equip X ability during Season 5, and over half of those (11) was Equip Shield.  I believe the reason why Equip X is hardly used is because its opportunity cost almost never outweighs its benefits.  When you use Equip X, you receive a very slight and/or team-specific bonus.  Meanwhile, you pass up on much better support abilities such as (Magic) Attack/Defense UP.

In this new system, we would group all Equip X skills into a single, new ability class.  Other underwhelming abilities (such as Maintenance) can also be thrown into this new class.  Reaction, support, and movement ability classes would remain unchanged.  Then, units can equip up to three abilities as before, but only one ability from each of the (now) four classes.  In other words, players can choose to sacrifice not only their support slot, but also their reaction or movement slots to accommodate an Equip X ability.

Implementing this new system should be possible without any ASM tinkering.  Right now, RSM abilities seem to be able to be scrambled and still work as intended.  So, the game should be able to handle a unit with, say, Attack UP in the R slot, Move +1 in the S slot, and Equip Heavy Blade in the M slot without any hiccups.  All that is required is the consensus of the community.

This redesign ought to open up plenty of new, unconventional designs.  Attack UP, Excalibur Grand Cross Monk? No problem!  Short Charge, Equip Armor tank mage? You got it!  Of course, these unconventional designs will come at the cost of the R or M slot.

dw6561

RSXM System counter argument matches (and further reinforcement that spell guns need to be changed :P):

https://www.twitch.tv/dw6561/v/102629903

Team used:

Player: 0 dw6561
Team: Weird Supports
Palettes: Black/White
Last Revision: 2016-11-21

================================

Insane Jump
Male
Virgo
70
50
Monk
Jump
Brave Up
Overwhelm
Equip Polearm
Dragon Whisker

Focus Band
Power Sleeve
Feather Boots

Stigma Magic
Jump Range 6, Vertical Ignore

================================

Pseudo Scholar
Female
Pisces
40
70
Time Mage
White Magic
Piety
Short Charge
Equip Armor
Healing Staff
Flame Shield
Diamond Helm
Diamond Armor
Dracula Mantle

Slow, Sinkhole
Cure 3, Raise 2, Regen, Esuna

================================

Kinda Regular
Male
Virgo
40
50
Mediator
Draw Out
Abandon
Equip Shield
Move-1
Main Gauche
Aegis Shield
Flash Hat
Black Costume
Dracula Mantle

Blackmail, Preach, Solution, Insult, Mimic Daravon
Masamune

================================

Luck Guard
Female
Cancer
40
70
Wizard
Summon Magic
Projectile Guard
Short Charge
Equip Light Gear
Hidden Knife

Holy Miter
Wizard Outfit
Defense Armlet

Nether Fire
Moogle, Fairy, Carbunkle, Odin, Zodiac

================================


Teams fought:
Gaignun's season 5 team
Silentkaster's 100% accuracy
Dokurider's Oregon Trails
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Andrew

Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.

Nobody uses Equip Light Gear for the clothes+weapons combos, as they may as well just use a ninja for this purpose (honestly, it's pretty much Equip Ninja minus Two Swords, lol.)  If I see Equip Light Gear in action, it's usually for the Hidden Knife on mages.

Equip Magegear is rarely used; and, if it *is* used, it's for the weapons it has to offer.

Mind you, if we did this, we would have to adjust what jobs have which RSMs, but I don't think it would be all that troublesome.
  • Modding version: PSX

Gaignun

Thanks for the concept matches, dw.  You raise some good points!  An RSXM system would be hugely beneficial for units like monster truck monks with pointed sticks and mages with Hidden Knife.  As you kindly demonstrated, the current jobs and equipment aren't balanced to accommodate such a system.

Now that I think about it, opening up combos like Equip Spellgun/Magic Attack UP/Pilgrimage to every unit in the game would suck.  I hope spellguns get changed regardless, though.

Quote from: Andrew on November 22, 2016, 02:47:15 am
Instead of RSXM, what if we only had three Equip X support skills: Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Weapon?  Equip Armor would allow access to all armour except for headbands, Equip Shield would function just how it does currently, and Equip Weapon would allow access to *any* weapon.


I am personally fine with this.