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Monk skillset overhaul concept

Started by FFMaster, October 19, 2012, 07:10:22 am

FFMaster

NUMBERS WILL PROBABLY BE REALLY BAD. BASH IDEAS AS YOU LIKE OR ADD YOUR OWN

I thought about adding the Pokemon Elemental punches but decided against it. =)

Spin Fist - 2 AoE, 0 Vert, PA*9 damage(Basically, an AoE fist regular attack)
Repeating Fist - 1 Range, 0 Vert, 4 CT, 10 MP, PA*4 damage, hits 1-4 times(an actual repeating attack, we have a bunch already though i guess)
Wave Fist - 4 Range, 3 Vert, 3 MP, PA*8 damage(longer range and weaker than the melee attack)
Earth Slash - 6 Range, 1 Vert, 10 MP, linear, PA*6 damage(spell caster range attack, the idea is to attack casters, of course)
Secret Fist, Stigma Magic and Chakra will probably remain the same.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Barren

lol I would have laughed if you did add fire/ice/thunderpunch because I might have as well made a team of pokemon for FFT Arena :P

As far as my opinions on Punch Art overhaul: Spin Fist to me should be PA*7 instead of 9 because it's basically saying that Spin Fist hits harder than Wave Fist which to me is kind of strange considering that single target damage traditionally hits harder then AoE. Wave Fist is fine as it is if you want it to be a weaker melee attack)

Everything else seems okay to me. It's only my opinion of course

Maybe you can add (or replace Wave Fist) with Dark Fist which would be a Dark Elemental Attack; same formula as Wave Fist and maybe have the range be 2 sq. line in front of the user (or 4 panel range) whichever works for you
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

RavenOfRazgriz

October 19, 2012, 11:37:48 am #2 Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 11:46:09 am by RavenOfRazgriz
Spin Fist is fine.  PA*9 is the Barehanded damage value and should be considered the baseline for the damage on these skills.  If anything, the other skills are really weak when you consider most Magic skills have Ys of 8-12, and the only skill that dips into the 6 range is Dia, but that has easily accessed Elem Boost via Golden Hairpin which also gives MA for some reason, huge range, isn't evadable, is instant, etc.  And as mentioned before, other magic skills run 8-12~ Y on average, can be pretty much all be Elementally Boosted for higher damage, etc.  Considering all that and the fact that Y = WP and most WP are greater than 9, a lot of these skills are honestly too weak for anything but a Martial Arts Monk to use.  (For anyone wondering, the max a Martial Arts Monk can do with PA*9 is in the ballpark of 250 damage with 70 Fury v 70 Fury and Max PA.  Considering many units can do more than this, and many units the Monk will be attacking will either have sub-70 Fury, Defense UP, Protect, etc... yeah.  This is "acceptable" but not necessarily "the best."  This is why things like PA*6 are basically a joke, since even a completely min-maxed Monk will do maybe 170 damage on the best of days.)

So:

Spin Fist -> Fury_PA*9, 6 MP, Evadable/CounterGraspable/CounterFloodable, Self Range 2 Area 0 Vertical, 0 CT, No Element

Torrent Fist (Formerly Repeating Fist) -> Fury_PA*11, 8 MP, Unevadable/Uncounterable/CounterFloodable, 1 Range 0 Area 0 Vertical, 0 CT, Water Element

Wave Fist -> Fury_PA*9, 12 MP, Evadable/CounterGraspable/CounterFloodable, 3 Range 0 Area 3 Vertical, 0 CT, Wind Element

Earth Slash -> Fury_PA*8, 16 MP, Evadable/CounterGraspable/CounterFloodable, 6 Range Linear Area 1 Vertical, 0 CT, Earth Element

(You can probably drop the Ys on each of the last 3 skills by 1 each and have them still do decent damage, though I'd go no lower than that since that leaves Earth Slash at a dubious PA*7.  I wouldn't, though, since their damage at the listed values isn't OP considering everything that goes into the Monk class and its current potential, and the current values leave the skills actually usable as Secondary skills, unlike what lower Y values does.)

Notes:

The "actually repeating" Repeating Fist is kind of a dumb idea mostly because we have a strictly better version of it in Cover Fire, whereas old Repeating Fist still has some advantages over Hawk's Eye which are maintained with this version.  Shifting Repeating Fist to a Water skill and Wave Fist to a Wind skill also gives those Elements a tad bit more representation without adjusting game balance all that much and allows for a greater variety of Monk using builds.  The MP costs should be fine at this level because Monks have access to a +80 MP Headband and Chakra as basically a staple-skill, and most other classes have decent MP pools and will get better damage from these skills than old-style Monk ones anyway.  This way the MP costs can just actually be noticed instead of being "Hey, 3 MP is still an MP cost, it's balanced, right?", and can cause the Monk and Ninjitsu skills to actually compete for MP in a longer battle.

While most of these skills are on par or stronger than a basic Monk barehanded attack normally and all can beat it with Element boosting (aside from Spin Fist), the standard Attack still has the perks of being compatible with Two Swords (technically leaving it as one of the Monk's best DPS options in terms of raw damage) and not consuming MP now that these skills actually, y'know, consume MP.

Malroth

Like Raven's general idea's but Torrent Fist should cost the most since its ludicrously strong as he wrote it.   (360 damage unevadable uncounterable after martial arts and elemental boost gear)

RavenOfRazgriz

Not sure where you get 360 damage from.  Monks can't wear Twist Headbands, so you trade up Bracer for 108 Gems and your base PA only becomes 15.  15* 1.25 = 18.5 -> 18 * 1.5 = 27 * 11 = 297.  Double 1.05x Fury puts it at 327.  Should probably be reduced to *10, which would reduce the damage to 270 * Fury which is roughly 20 points higher than the current cap-out for Repeating Fist on a max-damage build, which is fine since it's still not a oneshot to most things that fight in that range unless they output the same or considerably more damage.  (Even a build as boring as a pair of Berserk Scorpion Tails on a Ninja can output over 350 damage a go.)

The Damned

October 20, 2012, 10:43:20 pm #5 Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 10:52:17 pm by The Damned
(Yeah, PA*11 and unevadable alone is a bit much, even if close-range and taking into account the like a third of mages will be "immune" to it due to Defense Ring and other units have potentially more [evadable] damage output.

Also, Dia's magically evadable or, at least, it should be, so I'm not sure whether you mean it's not physically evadable, which is the more common evasion [still], or are just getting confused with the fact that it's not subject to Reflect.)

Wait, are Monks losing Revive since it's not in the original post? I ask both to be sure and because I'm totally fine with that despite the fact that I suspect it's just an unintentional omission. If Monk lost Revive, then Wish could potentially become that and so not get screwed over so horribly by the new Poison; there are other potential solutions to the new "problem" with Wish though.

Anyway, let's talk about the actual abilities that Monk still has (or can get):


1. Spin Fist: I agree with Raven's assessment basically. I could see it going as low as Fury_PA*8 however just because it's at slightly more range than a normal attack even if the Monk is hitting one person with it. That and it still would presumably benefit Concentrate. Of course, it can easily backfire being non-elemental, but Spin Fist tends to be one of the moves that the AI isn't as dumb with.... (Of course, since "we" are "fixing" Spin Fist, this brings up the question of what exactly "we" should do to "fix" Houkouton?)

2. Earth Slash: I agree with Raven's assessment here, though I actually think it might cost a bit too much MP between Kikuichimonji being free and assuming that Ribbons won't change. Personally, I really would like Ribbons/Headbands to get overhauled as well come 139 and one of the changes I want to suggest for them involves them all having less than 80 MP. While it's not like Monk still won't have Chakra to restore MP, it seems for the best to just take into account that they tend to only have either 53 or 56 MP at most between Earth Clothes and how the Ribbon "Headband" still is the best one. I'll admit that MP level still is not bad for an almost entirely physical class, but I don't think there's much merit in making it so that anyone who doesn't want to use the +80 MP headband can only fire off three of these at best; by Raven's own admission and intention, Earth Slash shouldn't be OP enough to warrant that. If it was, then the 80 MP thing allowing for five more to be fired off would be even worse. I'd suggest to the MP down to 10 or 12 at most.

3. Wave Fist: Initially I wasn't too comfortable with this becoming Wind elemental even though I've basically done the same thing with it in Embargo. That was because I thought it both would step on Ninjutsu's Fuuton's toes a bit too much and because I thought there might still be the need for some non-projectile, non-elemental physical skill that wasn't just an "Attack" or Cover Fire. However, since Fuuton goes by Unfaith while this would be going by Fury and since Throwing Knife, Spin Fist & Hawk's Eye exist, I suppose I'm fine with this becoming Wind elemental. I think the MP cost is still a bit too high though, even if it's not as "overpriced" as I feel Raven's suggestion for Earth Slash to be, especially due to Magic Ring still absorbing Wind. Maybe 10 or 8 or even 6 MP? Other than that, maybe make Wave Fist into a Direct attack finally? It's always bothered me that it goes straight through/around objects and only damages one despite essentially being a shock-wave.

4. Repeating Fist: This becoming "Torrent Fist"--I guess "we" could rename "Wave Fist" as "Vacuum Fist" or "Vacuum Wave"--and Water elemental is fine with me. However, it having that much power and being unevadable alongside being uncounterable isn't. It can remain unevadable, but it should probably be Fury_PA*10 at most and subject to at least regular Countergrasp. It should also probably cost the most MP of the three since it's unevadable, but I'm kind of ambivalent about that since it only hit one single target unlike Earth Slash. It definitely shouldn't be Fury_PA*11 though.

5. Secret Fist: This remaining the same is fine, I suppose, especially since Death Sentence apparently still doesn't cancel Reraise (or vice versa) like I thought it was going to come 138. However, I could see a possible change coming about in making this (slightly) more accurate and immune to Counter Flood, but making it cost some MP and subject to P-EV. That at the very least would further prevent teams like the ones Raven purposely made to exhibit why 40-40 essentially dominates (or at least dominated) everything when you can just let Death Sentence take care of things. (I'm not sure how to "fix" Mediator's Death Sentence in the case, but meh.)

6. Stigma Magic: I guess this is fine as it is, though part of me still feels that it and Esuna should differ at least somewhat due to this being instant & lacking MP even if single-target. Still, I suppose it's fine to keep it as is, even if the way the AI destroys Charm on self with it still rather annoys me.

7. Chakra: I am also begrudgingly fine with this.


I've said my thoughts on Revive already.

As for Pokemon style elemental punches, I wouldn't necessarily mind those, especially since Fire & Lightning are elements that basically have no physical representation even with Grand Cross around. They're not strictly "necessary" though, especially given that "we" are essentially already adding two new attacks by re-making Repeating Fist and Wave Fist into elemental, MP-consuming versions of themselves.

(For the record, I'd be up for Ice Punch causing Don't Move, Fire Punch causing Blind and Thunder Punch causing Slow if we go there. Ice Punch "technically" should cause Stop just as Thunder Punch "should" cause Don't Act, but those are too strong with damage & potentially Concentrate, even up-close only. I suppose that Fire Punch "technically" should be causing Blind & Poison or just Poison, but meh; "Burn" can't really be replicated with the current status anyway.)

Monastic EDIT: I forgot to say that if we're going to have Monk's skills cost MP now, then even with Chakra, I'd support upping their initial MP a bit more. For instance, I think it would be fine for a male Monk to hit 50 MP from the get-go, with female Monks of course having slightly more. That way they can use their abilities a decent amount of times without having to rely on Chakra or equipment while at the same time not overshadowing the classes that actually use MA like Mediator & Geomancer in terms of MP cost; I'm ignoring Samurai here since that uses MA, but gets to wear Robes and cast damaging "spells" for free.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

The Damned, the MP on the skills for Monk is intentionally slightly high because Chakra exists, and is already a staple on the Monk set.  They have low base MP but a very strong move that can quickly and costlessly restore MP in their native skillset.  It lets their skills be powerful but regulated by needing to recharge their MP on a regular basis.  Other classes offset this by doing less damage but usually having a lot more MP.  It also further keeps the standard Attack relevant by it being a consistent form of damage that doesn't require that pause to recharge.  This is also why Spin Fist rivals a standard attack - it has no Element and slightly dips into your MP stores, so you get something pretty good for your buck.  Torrent Fist could go to PA*10 and be Countergraspable, though.

Also, Monk doesn't really need Element Punches.  That's just kind of tacky and the core 3 Elements don't really need any more representation.  The current setup also makes their be a good schism - "core" Elements are MA based, and "sub" Elements are PA based.  It keeps a nice creative divide that further adds depth to team creation.

The Damned

October 20, 2012, 10:55:44 pm #7 Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 11:01:40 pm by The Damned
(Understandable.)

Going with the fact that I edited that probably after you posted, I suppose I can get behind the MP costs as they are now, even if Monk didn't get more MP. I'm just kinda "hesitant" to say that Chakra is the universal solution since right now I can't remember how well the AI will use Chakra while idle just to replenish MP. That uncertainty when combined with the fact that literally the only MP+ options they have being +80 MP Headband, which I feel needs to change, and the mere +10 MP from Earth Clothes is why I think they're a bit much.

But, meh, I don't really even like the Monk class that much, so I'm fine with seeing how higher MP--damn it, put HP there initially--costs work out even if I've already admitted I'd like to see that +80 MP Headband change a good deal.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

Re: the AI using Chakra properly

Y U SO DERP can have words with you.  It's also still one of the more dominating teams in Arena and does not appreciate your slander, good sir.

The Damned

October 20, 2012, 11:05:02 pm #9 Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 11:18:46 pm by The Damned
(It was less slander than it was my crappy memory and inability to watch Youtube on my current desktop.)

Hey, if it uses it, then it uses it. Hurray.

Of course, I'm still of the mind that almost forcing Monks to always have Chakra is not really what we should be aiming for, especially since we pretty much already force Move-MP Up onto almost all mages. However, I realize that's more of a general MP-requirement argument that I really don't want to get into right now than anything that has to do with Monk specifically.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

FFMaster

Revive will be in the Monk skillset and probably remain the same.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

RavenOfRazgriz

That's the other thing my stuff was counting on, Secret Fist, Stigma Magic, Chakra, Revive are the same as always and have no MP cost.  So it's really only your DPS that is MP intensive, while your status and support will always function properly.