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We should make our own Indie SRPG

Started by Havermayer, December 13, 2011, 02:11:33 am

Havermayer

I don't think our community will go anywhere if we keep trying to modify a 14 year old video game.  Compare Tactics Ogre (snes) to FFT.  Notice how in FFT the maps are much smaller, have fewer units and allow only 5 units for your team?  All technical limitations because of the Playstation.  Even if we completely master the engine, we still have the same limitations that the FFT designers had back in 1997.   

We need to break out of that.  Make our own game engine.  That would remove all the technical limitations, and even allow for us to expand them.  Imagine a large map with, say 64 units for instance.  And before you complain, yes that would mean that the battle system would not be identical to FFT, which is not a big deal.  From my previous thread someone posted:

QuoteAdvantages of homebrew over hacking:
1) No copyright/DRM issues if done correctly
2) You can use advanced coding languages and translate into MIPS
3) You don't have to worry about hard-coded mechanics or inscrutable code (since you're the one writing it)
4) ROM size problems can be ignored.  If we're making a PC port, even RAM size is irrelevant since most modern PCs and laptops have far more usable RAM than the PSX/PSP (and it's highly unlikely we'll even use that much since we're probably not coding a 3D graphics/physics engine).


I'd call it "indie', not homebrew though. 

Quote
However, this requires us build EVERYTHING from scratch.  Also, a good number of us are actually more proficient in ASM than in C++.  In short, we will have to throw away everything FFT did right just to either jump through a legal hoop or to ensure total "freedom" to create a game.


This is all worth it in my opinion.  It's obvious that Squeenix has no intention of making a real FFT sequel.  If we pooled our resources I think we could make a top down, sprite based SRPG in the style of FFT/Tactics Ogre.  Keep it simple for the time being.  Perhaps some later project could "take it to the next level" of sorts.  I for one will begin to take my own advice and will read up on coding languages. 

Dome


"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Havermayer

December 13, 2011, 02:36:39 am #2 Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 02:41:46 am by Havermayer
Quote from: Dome on December 13, 2011, 02:18:33 am
Click here


My concern with that is that I'm seeing FFT maps, FFT characters, FFT music, etc.  None of this is legally okay.  I don't want a single line of code in this new project.  And how tied to the original game engine is it?  Does it have the same limitations? 

GeneralStrife

It's coded in whatchamacallit...just using placeholder fft art....Lijj had done some nice new sprites for it that looked 3d....lirmont was makin new maps.

Kaijyuu

One of my longtime planned projects is pretty much this. Have a storyline penned out, along with some unique gameplay mechanics (so it's not a pure FFT clone).

Since I'm making something completely different at the moment, I can't really contribute though.
  • Modding version: PSX

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: Havermayer on December 13, 2011, 02:36:39 am
My concern with that is that I'm seeing FFT maps, FFT characters, FFT music, etc.  None of this is legally okay.  I don't want a single line of code in this new project.  And how tied to the original game engine is it?  Does it have the same limitations? 


It's coded from scratch.  It's not coming bottom up from FFT's code, it's coming top-down and recreating all its mechanics (and likely more) with all its own code.  It also already has its own art direction (Kivutar works with Lijj, who has a distinct and personal spriting style) and several custom maps, with custom maps being easily made through Blender.  I'm pretty sure what the game reads for Sprite Sheets aren't the typical FFT Sprite Sheets either, but rather a specific kind of "full" Sprite Sheet that Xifanie's Palette Editor can output for previewing frames.  Very little if anything is done using any of FFT's actual code.  It uses graphics (for now) because - erm - we're an FFT modding community, not an indie game community, so it's easier to stick to roots until you're ready to actually unveil your project to the world.  Honestly, from a quick look through, it even looks technically "playable" from a PvP standpoint, if a bit bare-bones. 



The problem is - no one really /wants/ to code a completely new game here.  Or rather, they're not here to make an entirely new indie game or game engine.  That's why this is a hacking/modding community, and not a game design community, despite how incredibly similar those things are, or rather, should be.   You also underrate the difficulty of doing everything from scratch, by a lot.  I can't imagine how Kivutar intends to code an AI for Tethical, if at all, because they are not easy. 

Besides, what "Limitations" are you talking about?  Our ASMers have mauled this game thoroughly and are making/can make tons of things that don't exist in the Vanilla game.  We have a fairly robust (I know - I made it) Event Editing program if anyone would bother to try learning how to use it.  Etc.  The only real "technical limitation" I can think of that's truly a problem is the battles having a 9 Sprite Limitation so enemy formations can't match the player ones in variety.  You could also argue wanting more than 16 units on the field - but that's not really FFT's thing, FFT is about two small forces in a skirmish as far as the gameplay is concerned, not the clashing of armies.  If you want a clashing of armies, you should probably be modding one of the Ogre Battle / Tactics Ogre games, of which I believe such resources exist for.

Pickle Girl Fanboy

December 13, 2011, 01:20:33 pm #6 Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 01:28:20 pm by Pickle Girl Fanboy
Final Fantasy Tactics is a Tactical RPG - hence the tactics.  Ogre Battle MOTBQ is a Strategy RPG.

Yeah, Kivutar just used FFT images as placeholders until we get enough sprites - maybe a dozen - to make our own game.  And, while Tethical is just a PVP, there's nothing to say that it can't be forked, or otherwise modified and divided into the core engine with modules for single-player and online player vs player.  Trust me, a year from now, we'll have something which will blow FFT out of the water (or at least FFT Arena), and two years from that time, we could have a single-player clone of FFT.  Provided that people help Kivutar and Lirmont.

Honestly, Havermayer, everything's going fine.  Sure, we could use a better editor than FFTPatcher and all the different spreadsheets, but, while it isn't perfect (which is what bothers me, since I'm a perfectionist), it does the job.  Once we come up with a better system for keeping track of ASM hacks, hex edits, and hack-generating spreadsheets, we'll be able to keep them up to date, and to integrate hacking work into disassembly and optimization projects like FDC's formula rewrite hack.  And as we improve our editing tools, we will free up ASM hackers to work on obscure things like optimizing the sprite format, ripping and inserting music, and adding new functionalities into the game.

One other thing: I don't know who you've been listening to - though I can guess who - but this person doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.  He doesn't care about modding FFT, he doesn't care about freeing us from the limitations of the PS1, and he doesn't care about what's best for the community at large.  He just wants everyone to agree that he is not wrong, that he is being oppressed by people who have horrible ideas and want to shut him up, and that he is the only one who understands just what we need.  Bullshit, of course.  The only people who know what we need are the individuals that make up this community.  He understands that, so he is constantly operating behind the scenes to sow strife and division among us, to get people to abandon this community for his.

All that is supposition.  But it's what I'd do, if I thought like him, assuming his actions and words are reliable indicators of his thoughts.

If you want to help, then give Lirmont input about what you want in the interface for the Tethical data editor.  It's in one of the most recent threads at the Tethical board.

EDIT

If you want to edit a Strategy RPG, then you can edit Ogre Battle - March Of The Black Queen for SNES.  I didn't find the data for it, and I didn't make the first data spreadsheets, but I did try to make the most up-to-date spreadsheets, which you can find at the following location:
http://www.verve-fanworks.com/SMF/index.php?topic=75.0

And FYI, the Ogre Battle games are Strategy RPGS, but the Tactics Ogre games are Tactical RPGs, though they all take place in the same universe.

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: Pickle Girl Fanboy on December 13, 2011, 01:20:33 pmOne other thing: I don't know who you've been listening to - though I can guess who - but this person doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.  He doesn't care about modding FFT, he doesn't care about freeing us from the limitations of the PS1, and he doesn't care about what's best for the community at large.  He just wants everyone to agree that he is not wrong, that he is being oppressed by people who have horrible ideas and want to shut him up, and that he is the only one who understands just what we need.  Bullshit, of course.  The only people who know what we need are the individuals that make up this community.  He understands that, so he is constantly operating behind the scenes to sow strife and division among us, to get people to abandon this community for his.


The people sowing strife are people who don't know how to shut the fuck up about that situation and focus their energies elsewhere instead of dwelling on the past.   

Here's a pro-tip not to Pickle Girl Fanboy, but to everyone in particular: SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT IT ALREADY.  Every time this gets brought up for no fucking reason, everyone drops what they're doing and throws a hissyfit, instead of actually working and trying to prove such comments that are being alluded to in the quote above wrong.  I'm getting sick and fucking tired of being in a community full of whiny bitches who can't stop ranting about that one guy who threw sand in their eyes a few years ago and do something productive instead.  Really fucking sick of it.  Yeah.  I get it.  Most of you hate that guy who threw sand in your eyes.  We all get it.  So seriously, stop.  Stop and go do something useful.  This person has not been here for over a year save one incident where he was justified in appearing, and has not cared about us for over a year, so the only people "sow[ing] strife and division" are the people who don't know how to stop bringing shit back up.  The people "sow[ing] strife and division" are those spreading poor suppositions about things and people we shouldn't give a damn about anymore.  Was that entire situation leading up to the start of all this stupid?  Yes.  Was his reaction to what happened pretty fucking assholish? Yes.  Does that mean we need to dwell on it like two years later?  No way in hell.  Do you know what you fucking idiots do every time you bring this up?  Prove him correct.  Being a pissant little bitch and bringing this up either for no reason or over things we shouldn't give shits about should honestly just be a bannable offense at this point.  It helps no one, it brings down the site, it ruins productivity, and it makes us exactly all the negative things he calls us, because again, all it does is prove him right.  It's not even like there is an Us v Them mentality - this website and that one don't even overlap in what they do, 95% of the time.

Seriously - I'm tired of dealing with a community of pissant little bitches who can't just fucking grow a pair, move on, and get to working on something else instead of dwelling on all of this shit, to the point I'm very close to honestly just not wanting to be here anymore.  Grow the fuck up, stop being fucking pussies, move on, stop dwelling on things buried years into the past and get something done instead, so you can prove him wrong.  Because right now, he's correct, no matter how much your "I hate him!!111!" wants to nerd-rage you into trying to believe otherwise, and he won't stop being right until this bullshit stops and things start progressing.  That's the truth, accept it or die out holding petty grudges.  If the latter proves to be what's going to happen here, I know I for one will be jumping shark and heading to greener pastures instead of watching a tired old dog wither and die.  I'd much rather not, though.  So please, I implore everyone on this website - quit being a giant fucking fucktard.  Please.  For not only my sake, but all of yours.

Xifanie

Alright, and a little word from your lovely admin... This idea is impossble because:
1) We don't have coders
2) No one is willing to code and debug all that, programmation makes most people (including everyone on FFH!) go crazy as soon as they code/hack at a medium pace
3) No one has this much time to waste
4) It's all ideas, no people to do the job

Basically if you want it happening, I suggest you start racking up some serious $$$ to afford people working for you. Have you thought about those points before making the topic?

Fuck, and if we actually had that potential we would've already completely reverse-engineered the game back in 2009 lol.
  • Modding version: PSX
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Anything is possible as long as it is within the hardware's limits. (ie. disc space, RAM, Video RAM, processor, etc.)
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<Raijinili> remember that? it was awful

Dome

December 13, 2011, 02:48:57 pm #9 Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 02:54:54 pm by Dome
While I do not agree with the wording, I agree with what Raven said:
If you truly want to shut someone up do it with facts, and not with words.
Also, holding grudges (even if they are well deserved) brings nothing good; Just let them die, what has been done cannot be changed
Anyway...if you want a new custom game, at the moment, supporting Tethical is the best way to go, IMHO

P.s: Xif, your new avatar is creepy as hell

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"