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☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 2 ☢ ☢ ☢

Started by CT5Holy, July 05, 2013, 03:03:08 am

Wiz

The result of this match doesn't count, and I request a rematch under this reasonable set of ground.

Shieldrender's bugged. It's not designed to "hit twice/ get a doubleshot" occasionally in examples such as at 02:00, 07:14, 13:32, and 22:38. That's cheating. All what it's designed to do is "break one's shield", not what I just mentioned in the prior set of quotations. There's literally no negative impact whatsoever on Angelus' part for the squire. Those occasional doubleshots are free hits that the squire normally wouldn't be able to get until subsequent turns. Granted, one of the examples I just displayed him missing one shot, but the point still remains the same. A Berserked Squire who already has Two Hands deals 302 damage to a 40 Br + Defense UP Neutral Compat Unit (~58% physical damage reduction) because of this bug? Yeah, that's the epitome of bullshit. The biggest and most prominent example of this bug taking affect is at 18:48, where he did 302 as opposed to what he should've done, 151. Basically, the Squire's from time to time getting two attacks off from one attack action when he's not meant to do so. This put me at a severe handicap in that Angelus' DPS was substantially higher that it was intended to be. Now some you might argue the opposite with the squire not making as much of an impact as I perceive it to be, but you gotta at least give me some credit for bringing this match to a tiebreaker despite the clear and obvious disadvantage I had. That fact alone should at least put me in the position to ask for a rematch so that both teams are on a leveled playing field.

Easy Fix

1. Change out the phoenix blade's item attribute so it has none (Item Attribute = 00 in FFTP)
2. Give it the same weapon evasion as shieldrender
3. Substitute this for shieldrender for the squire and give him have no support ability since a 16 WP Phoenix Blade is the same as a 2-Handed Unit with shieldrender.

Seeing as how no one on my team has a shield nor a phoenix blade to begin with, it wouldn't impact the fight at all outside of fixing a bug that wasn't meant to be there in the first place.

Only thing I'm going to say in regards to this match itself is that I'm pretty sure that if Richter stole the Priest's Defense Ring that he missed in R1, she would've inevitably gotten pissed and went into a rage via Insult preventing her from raise spamming incidentally.

GG Angelus. I'm not yet whooping your ass. Once those training wheels come off, you're gonna feel the pain all over again, but it's only gonna hurt more.

If I end up winning in the presumed rematch and go on to fight CT5Holy, I'm going to get knocked out then. The oracle's high hit rate with paralyze (~55%) along with the immortal ninja are going to reck my shit. The other two will do so as well, but they won't be as apparent.

EDIT: Directed more towards Angelus, but applies to everyone as well. Whenever you fight this team, they're going to make you work via bust your ass off to earn your victory. When you do beat them legitimately, I hope you feel fulfilled in doing so.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Barren

Unfortunately the deal with the shield render is that its designed to be that doubleshot against non-shield user. It's working as its designed to do hence why the weapon has 8 WP. In other words: it essentially has 12 WP when the doubleshot procs against a unit with no shield equipped.Because otherwise a Shield Break proc would result in a unnecessary number of hits.

The documentation on the weapon is clear. It casts the Knight/Paladin ability "Shield Break" at a 50% rate Shield Break results in a normal Attack command on the target if the target has no Shield.

You still won round 2 in spite of that and Round 3 really could have gone either way. Plus it would be unfair to Angelus if I changed his setup on him just to do the rematch. Plus the shield render weapon was never banned in the tournament so anyone else could have used it. Besides, you still have a chance in the Loser's bracket and can still win. I'm sorry but that's how it is.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Angel

Stop whining every time you lose.
  • Modding version: PSX
* Angel should quit being a lazy bitch
<@Elric> I agree to that as well

nyanyame nyanyajuu nyanyado no nyarabide nyakunyaku inyanyaku nyanyahan nyanyadai nyannyaku nyarabete nyaganyagame
At the end of the day, are we not all trapped inside lemons?

Xifanie

Oh Christ. Stop being such a fucking sore loser.
  • Modding version: PSX
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Anything is possible as long as it is within the hardware's limits. (ie. disc space, RAM, Video RAM, processor, etc.)
<R999> My target market is not FFT mod players
<Raijinili> remember that? it was awful

Wiz

Quote from: Barren on July 18, 2013, 07:23:50 pm
Unfortunately the deal with the shield render is that its designed to be that doubleshot against non-shield user. It's working as its designed to do hence why the weapon has 8 WP. In other words: it essentially has 12 WP when the doubleshot procs against a unit with no shield equipped. Because otherwise a Shield Break proc would result in a unnecessary number of hits.

The documentation on the weapon is clear. It casts the Knight/Paladin ability "Shield Break" at a 50% rate Shield Break results in a normal Attack command on the target if the target has no Shield.



Then why does Armor Break not proc a doubleshot from the Bow Gun? If it has the same functionality as breaking equipment as a proc.. Why doesn't it occasionally give out a doubleshot then in addition to that? Is it because it's designed not to whereas shield break is? If it's the last question, the master guide does a pretty shitty job explaining that premise then. You're right in that it's a "50% Shield Break", which the Master Guide exactly states. It doesn't clarify "50% Shield Break ; 50% Doubleshot if no shield". That's ambiguous and it's never explained that way whatsoever. When the master guide deceives you by saying that it only breaks a shield 50% of the time and nothing else, then in actuality has a hidden proc of double-shotting someone when they don't have a shield, that's a pretty bad mess-up.

What you're basically saying is that I was "supposed to know" that shield break triggered a chance to inflict doubleshots on units that didn't have a shield despite the master guide never stating that.

Asking for a rematch because of a bug (which is what this is according to the master guide's own current definition "Shield Break: 50%") that made a difference in all the rounds altogether is a perfectly reasonable request. This bug is pretty much the equivalent of there being a hypothetical bug where Old Sagat from Super Turbo (Street Fighter II) in the arcades does a fixed amount of damage from any of his tiger uppercuts regardless of distance, and whether the opponents are in the air or not.

If this does go through (I believe it will as explained below), you can easily throw up another bo3 and give angelus a second chance assuming I win the next bout. And the altered version of Phoenix Blade I listed earlier would actually not change a difference in damage output from just one swing. It would still be exactly the same as before.

All what I'm going to say is chances are, you're probably going to get a lot of opposition with people asking for a rematch due to the master guide never explaining that if you don't have a shield, there's a chance they'll get a doubleshot in on you instead. If you want to consider my loss legitimate, that's fine, but chances are, the masses are going to be in disagreement with you. As far as I'm concerned, the loss is because of a bug that wasn't suppose to exist according to the way the master guide's written. Keep in mind, in spite of all of this, if the roles were reversed and I won because of that bug, I would've brought up this anyways, and not just because I lost like Xifanie and Toshiko above are trying to convey dishonestly. I will admit yes that I'm very vocal when I lose a bout against someone especially in a tournament setting, but I never disrespect my opponents and never bitch just for the sake of doing so.


If you're not going to provide any substance to the argument and only undeservedly call me a whiner about the fact that I'm concerned and annoyed that I lost because of a game-breaking bug that shouldn't be there when I provide a solution to fix it, don't post. All what this is is provocation on your ladies' end to get me riled up and do something that "crosses the line" here on the forums and you two should be ashamed of yourselves honestly especially Toshiko."TL;DR - Stop whining every time you lose", this is a deliberate misrepresentation of what Barren said, which is actually "Shield Break inflicts a double shot on the opponent when they don't have a shield, so I'm sorry I can't grant your request for a rematch" and I'm arguing against that. I'm surprised you're not being banned for purposely twisting someone's words and molding them into something that they aren't to take a jab at someone.

If I really were a "whiner"/"sore loser" about it, I would've bitched out Angelus and been like "ANGELUS, YOU SUCK COCK, YOU'RE A FUCKING ASSHOLE AND A RETARD", but I clearly wasn't, so don't try to project something that isn't true.

Idk if it's just something about me that rubs you two the wrong way in regards to previous encounters or whatever it may be, but you could at the very least be respectful towards someone you don't like and not relay your messages in such a way without having any basis behind them.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Barren

I'm not the one who created the weapons or documents to begin with. As far as why doesn't the armor break proc properly with the bowgun; I'm no hacker but it's probably a implementing error of some kind but you should really be asking that question to the person(s) who pitched the idea and the one that approved it. I talked to Raven about it and he told me that it is doing what its designed to do and that it acts like double breaking in vanilla FFT. If a break hits first then the second one is damage. It functions like a two sword x break only with one sword. It's weird I know but again that's how the weapon was designed. There's no ruling that a certain weapon is banned in this tournament, if there was then it would have been declared otherwise
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Angel

I idle in chat, and I lurk on the forums. Not to say I have -zero- presence, but every time you lose a match, you make a post explaining why it's not fair, and I get hours worth of chat erupting over how childish you are for never accepting a win gracefully, and for treating every loss as a slight against you by the game's programming, because you're too perfect to lose. It gets old. You don't know how vanilla works, even. Deal with your oversight and prepare for it next time instead of hoping for RNG to be on your side once you neuter your opponent's strategy.
  • Modding version: PSX
* Angel should quit being a lazy bitch
<@Elric> I agree to that as well

nyanyame nyanyajuu nyanyado no nyarabide nyakunyaku inyanyaku nyanyahan nyanyadai nyannyaku nyarabete nyaganyagame
At the end of the day, are we not all trapped inside lemons?

RavenOfRazgriz

Let's set the record straight.  Shieldrender's special text in the Master Guide reads "50% Cast: Shield Break."  This means it casts the Archer's Shield Break Active Ability, which will destroy the target's equipped Shield at a rate of (PA+8+55)% with a Physical Evasion Modifier.  If you do not have a Shield, casting Shield Break with a unit (even in Vanilla!) will result in that unit's cast of Shield Break defaulting to the Attack Command.  This means when the Shieldrender casts Shield Break after breaking the target's Shield or against a target that has no Shield to begin with, it will essentially cast Doubleshot instead.  This is why the weapon has 8 WP (8 *1.5 = 12 WP average with Doubleshooting, which is considered the average "competitive" WP for a Sword-class weapon) and is not compatible with Two Swords (else you could get quad- or octo- hits via the Shield Break procs).  If you think I'm lying, find the 1.38 development thread and the point Shieldrender was proposed (alongside the change to Bow Gun), where this is made very clear to be the intended interaction.  The Bow Gun not having this property is a bug, as the Armor Break replaced the old "Doubleshot" proc used by the Bow Gun in an attempt to make it a more competitive weapon.  You should direct your ire on Bow Gun not working correctly to FFMaster and tell him to fix it, I don't know what the fuck he did when implementing it that results in the incorrect behavior.

I guess I apologize that you don't understand how the Vanilla Ability "Shield Break" functions when the target doesn't have a Shield equipped.  Everyone else does.  Nothing is "hidden", it's up to you to understand how the skills being proc'd actually work, especially completely unaltered Vanilla skills.




FFMaster



Note that is says "50% Cast: Shield Break". It's the same as something like "50% Cast: Death". You cast the Shield Break ability, not that the shield is broken. You cast the Death spell, not adding the status.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

Wiz

My apologies for not understanding Shield Break's properties. The skill's description for the proc was just misleading as hell to me. I knew that if you attacked an enemy without a shield, it'd resort to damage instead. I just was completely caught off-guard that it additionally triggered a second hit and never personally experienced it doing so when playing vanilla myself. I now that's of my own ignorance and lack of understanding the mechanics of vanilla for fuck's sake. Again though, I admit I'm very vocal and quite often get pissed whenever I lose a match in a tournament setting, but it's not like as if I'm doing so without warrant and insult my opponents whenever that's the case. I don't go out of my way with wearing a trollface saying things like "'YOU"RE AND ASSHOLE FOR BEATING ME X' 'HOW DARE YOU'", and "NO, THAT DOESN'T COUNT AND I'M GOING TO GET WHAT I WANT QQ". If I really were a poor sport about losing Toshiko, I would've still kept on arguing to push for a rematch right now, but I'm not and have conceded that it was due to my lack of incompetence in game mechanics.

The only thing I take to terms with is your claim that I make excuses everytime I lose a match. It's inaccurate and a serious case of spreading misinformation. Before you edited your post, I briefly saw the chatlog you listed, and all I have to say it's pretty sad some people are getting severely worked up and are dramatizing this claim on the FFH Chat (I guess a couple people picked it up on ID, but w.e., nobody should care anymore) over the fact that I make comments and am upfront whenever I lose a match in a video game (Not that you're a part of this group of people). Can you see how ridiculous this is? That's not even taking for granted what you just expressed "every time you lose a match, you make a post explaining why it's not fair, and I get hours worth of chat erupting over how childish you are for never accepting a win gracefully, and for treating every loss as a slight against you by the game's programming, because you're too perfect to lose" Pointing out simple facts =/= an excuse, pouting, or whatever jibberish people are throwing out. After the S1 AI Tournament, more than a year ago, I've only made 10 posts (including this one) and a few comments in YT vids on FFT Arena content. And honestly, the only things I said in regards to the matches I lost since then were...


Dokurider's Updated "Stone Frogs" and "Quackening"

"'*Roll of the eyes* You hard-countered my team design. Doesn't say anything significant."

I'm not saying that's not fair or BS. I'm not even remotely insulting him. Hell, these are very deadly and unique teams. Props to you my man.

Barren's S2 Team and Doku's "Dorter's Most Wanted" from youtube

"Barren's team was a hard-counter with 2x Angel Rings + 2 Defense Rings. Nothing I could do with this version to cope with the immunity to Berserk & Darkness"
"Cursed Ring makes me cringe. Even though it was a counter, at least I almost won both of those rounds. Luck played a role too."

I'm just pointing out the obvious for the losses like I did with Doku's two teams. I didn't harp on them and go on a crusade about it.

Vs Angelus

"Why is a squire doing 300+ damage from a berserked two-handed weapon by doing occasionally two hits to someone who reduces the physical damage output by 58%? That's not fair and bullshit. It's not designed to do that. I want a rematch The master guide doesn't say anything about getting two hits when using shield break with a one-handed weapon. Oh, that's not the case? I'm surprised."

This is pretty much the only one I got close to before starting to pout like a sore loser because I refrained from carrying this on and conceded that's actually how it's supposed to be with shield break even though I personally disagree with a unit being able to equip two-hands and by using this weapon getting access to ''pseudo two-swords" also.


tl;dr spoiler ^, I firmly believed and argued upfront that the Shield Break mechanic wasn't designed that way it currently is asking for a rematch only to be proven wrong exhibiting a complete misunderstanding of one mechanic, and people lumped this into the category of "I always complain when I lose", when that's wholesomely untruthful.

It's very apparent, but I'm only addressing this notion Toshiko because you brought the subject up and I needed to set the record straight. Well, that's pretty much everything I want to say, and that should clear everything up.


/end discussion.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

reinoe

Wow that Squire was MVP in more ways than one.  In a previous match it was revealed that Bow Gun's proc is working mostly correctly.  In this match we got definitive proof that Shieldrender's proc is also working correctly.  Shieldrender was on the chopping block for being removed because we initially thought it's ability wasn't working.  I know when I looked at it and saw only 8wp I thought it was just a weak weapon.  Kudos to those braver than I for trying out new things.  Now I kinda wish I had the courage to submit my SYTYCD team to this tournament.  But I was a little chicken.


One Hour and a half later edit: The Angelus v Wiz match rates even higher in my eyes.  Since the match is nearly 30 minutes long, its perfectly timed.  I can watch it on my laptop while walking on my treadmill.  The time flew by because I was fixated on the match.  Exercising while watching Youtube.  Surely this is a first.  Is there nothing FFHACKTICS can't do?
My dreams can come true!

Stann

Quote from: Wiz on July 19, 2013, 12:05:04 am
(I guess a couple people picked it up on ID, but w.e., nobody should care anymore)



We were just poking fun at you for being a sore loser, Wiz. No harm intended. :v

I was rooting for your team the whole time, that was a really epic fight.

Gaignun

Quote from: Avalanche on July 18, 2013, 01:57:51 pm
the problem with the perception of rng. One is only concerned with the the outstanding events. But if you look at the whole Luck is balanced out quite good most of the time (as more events happen).


Two people, A and B, enter n lotteries, with one half awarding $1 at a 50% chance and the other half awarding $1000 at a 50% chance.  Person A wins every $1 lottery but loses every $1000 lottery.  Meanwhile, person B loses every $1 lottery but wins every $1000 lottery.  Although both people win the same number of times, person B still ends up better off than person A.

It's not just the number of wins that counts.  The gains are also important.


reinoe

Quote from: CT5Holy on July 19, 2013, 10:32:18 pm
FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 2 Match 24 - Gaignun vs Dol

FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 2 Match 25 - Dragonblade vs reinoe

Gaignun is getting no mileage out of his Scorpion Tail/Repel Knife setup.  Even though Gaignun started out at a disadvantage he was able to take over the match.  Slow 2 from the priest plus his units just hit so hard.  There wasn't really a key moment for him during match 1.  He just took over.  Round 2, was not as close.  Miscalculation on Dol's Part with the Battle Song.  The archer is just too fast for it.  The Mythril Bow on the Berserk unit was a good idea though.


I was able to win in large part because the Ancient Sword on the Samurai is a questionable choice.  I was worried about the Fire AoE from the wizard precisely because of my limited raise options.  But I knew I had a speed advantage.  Magic Break was an incredibly poor choice on my part.  I really need that to be Quickening.  I'm also regretting not giving the Archer "Black Costume".  I expected a lot more Lightning/Water and I was also thinking about Rek's team.  Sigh.  I have no hope of beating Gaignun.  Fortunately by winning two matches it allows me to "skip" a match in the Loser's Bracket.

GG Dragonblade, I'll join you shortly.



Quote from: reinoe on July 17, 2013, 08:48:54 pm
Since there's three people doing loser's, and only two people doing winner's, I'm sure it'll keep pace anyway.

Ok, admittedly, I am a little worried about the pace of Loser's Bracket now.
My dreams can come true!

Gaignun

Dragonblade's samurai was the MVP in R1.  I loved watching him stand guard in the doorway so that Gaignun's Ninja couldn't get at Dragonblade's juicy squishies.  I think the match was decided on the strength of charm, but even so, that samurai was getting it done.


Avalanche

No suprise Angelus won this. His Team is very good and Wiz´s Team barely is an improvment of his last season Team. Of course it still is a good Team just no top tier team imo.


Gaignung is my favorite of this season. Very strong indivudal Units and a good Team


Rising of the dead wins. GG

TrueLight

At least it was a lot closer than the last time I faced Barren in a tournament. I'm surprised that berserk didn't play a bigger role, but I guess it was for the better. Getting the Thief down early in round 1 really helped out and the don't act on the Mediator was huge. I still shake my head every time a unit jumps on someone who's sleeping. Round 2 was all Barren with some help from the RNG. Round 3 was super close. I really thought I had it if my Lancer or Archer could get one more attack on that Archer. But...then my Lancer got hit with don't act and the archer decided to run away. Then the undead units got back up and finished me off. So close, yet so far. Good game Barren.

Now to await who I will face in the losers bracket.
  • Modding version: PSX