FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[The Damned]

@Percentage-Based attacks: Eh, I don't know if Demi should be that quick or Demi 2 should be that much, but I think that I like CT5Holy's changes for the most part. These would all still be Dark-based, right?

@Strange Aeons: Given what you said to me last time about Odin being a gimmick, FFMaster, and Barren's exhibition showing what an idiot the computer is about Death even when giving the ability to apply 100% Faith to a target, it seems pretty clear that Death needs to die. It's useless and making it more likely to hit would just make it stupid. 

Similarly, is there a reason that Flare and Holy are affected by Reflect? It seems a tad...unfair given how much better than Black Magic and White Magic Summon Magic already is.

@Martial Arts: I actually don't really have a problem with Martial Arts on Mimes since they otherwise have no options and range, especially with the player not controlling them. Taking away from Martial Arts from Mimes while letting stupid-ass Monks keep it similarly seems kind of backwards, even if, yes, I realize that Monks wouldn't be able to equip Martial Arts if they didn't have it innately. (Boo-fucking-hoo.)

Speaking of Monks, I was being serious when I asked if we could nerf Chakra and Stigma Magic to single-target abilities. It's stupid that strongest class in vanilla is still the strongest class (or tied for the strongest class what with Paladin) in Arena even after the changes, primarily because it's seem the least changes and has only really gotten buffs. (Being able to equip Ribbons and having more HP now.) I mean, why the hell can something that deals so much damage be so good at healing, status removal AND revival? Even Summon Magic has the decency to only be good at two of those.

I just noticed a huge problem with Hawk's Eye, currently, it has a CT of 6, but whenever a unit moves after beginning to charge it, the charge cancels, resulting in the waste of a turn. So we either need to make Hawk's Eye instant cast or flag it to follow target.

:EDIT: scrapped what I said about a skillset swap, as it was pointed out to me that the problem wasn't with the archer's skillset but the flags set for Hawk's Eye, apparently this problem happens with any charge skill that doesn't also have follow target flagged.

Yep. There's a reason that Charge in-game prevents you from moving after you've activated it: Apparently the AI is too stupid to not move otherwise.

My incredibly vague fix for this was to flag Weapon Strike and Normal Attack? and unflag Targeting.

I like the sound of incredibly vague fixes.

i think there is a good reason why Demi is so much weaker than Lich.
Because time mage has the role of a supporter/disabler. If u want an strong atackspell u need to equip a second ability like black magic/summon magic. If Demi would become as strong that would boost time magic very much.

No one's arguing that Demi 1 should be stronger than Lich, just there's no reason to use any other percentage attack OTHER than Lich at present since Lich is both unavoidable and a 2HKO.

An ability that has no reason to be used should just be eliminated.

[CT5Holy]

Auto Potion could have a lower JP cost of about 350, I'd say.

[Skip Sandwich]

There has been a lot of dissatisfaction floating around lately for how strong Monks in general are and Martial Arts in specific is. So I ask, just why can't we just remove Martial Arts entirely? It'd be really easy to just give monks Two Swords innate, or Poles or Rods or something, or to just make the unarmed "weapon" itself stronger, while removing the ridiculous PA scaling that Martial Arts causes.

[CT5Holy]

Innate Overwhelm, then? Overwhelm + Attack UP would give monks (max PA setup) 26-28 effective PA (depending on whether or not FS Bag is equipped), as opposed to 33-36 effective PA from Martial Arts + Attack UP. Damage would be reasonably high, as opposed to ridiculously high.
I suggest innate Overwhelm instead of innate Attack UP because the AUP boost is larger -> less tradeoff in damage versus having a more defensive support for survivability. Overwhelm + Two Swords also probably won't be as... overwhelming as AUP + Two Swords/Martial Arts + Two Swords (then again, it's still probably a ton of damage).
Then again, since Overwhelm boost isn't as big, that might force Monks into max damage setups (which isn't a big deal for me, since that's what I always do, but it might be annoying for others, or if something pops up that would make me not use them for pure damage).

[PX_Timefordeath]

Change Chakra and Stigma Magic to linear targeting, so they can only affect the monk and the person in front of him. Would that satisfy you Damned over the brokenness of Monks? Also, I like that Overwhelm idea.

[The Damned]

That would be better and worthy of testing despite it still seems stronger than what I want.

However, this shouldn't be about what just I want? As (surprisingly) vocal and bossy as I am towards you guys at times (sorry about that; you'd think I was helping you moderator), I WOULD like to hear other people's opinions on this Monk matter. I say this especially because I admittedly have a bias against them.

Sight Unseeing EDIT: Wow, I completely overlooked Skip Sandwich's and CT5Holy's posts; I'd ask what was wrong with me, but we don't have all day. Anyway, I somewhat agree with the Overwhelm thing, though that would mean that Monks (and Mimes) would probably need even more HP. Attack UP is useless anyway since you can just use PA.

But, yeah, Martial Arts can die forever as far as I care.

[Skip Sandwich]

Rather then giving monks more HP, we could give the unarmed "weapon" a W-ev rating of 10 or so (not too high since even without Two Swords most monks will technically still have two unarmed "weapons" "equipped".

[Shade]

^^ I just like the idea because of two hands combination XD.

[Skip Sandwich]

Also, i've been thinking, maybe the solution for the Demi/Lich disparity is to turn Lich into something more like Hades/Doomtrain, a mass negative status inflictor, like a ranged Doku no Kyoukai. Of course, this would marginalize oracle spells even more, but those probably need to be overhauled anyway.

[FFMaster]

Instead of innate Overwhelm, I can easily make Martial Arts 25% instead. What do people think of that? And I think I might have an idea to get rid of 2 swords fist. As for unarmed gaining W-EV, I've never tampered with it, but assuming it changes in SCUS, there won't be room to edit that. I can add more C-EV to Monk instead as an alternative.

[Skip Sandwich]

you can give the unarmed "weapon" WP and W-ev in FFTPatcher, it's the blank spot right at the top of the weapon list

[Gaignun]

As another minor change, the ninja skillset "ninjitsu" should be written "ninjutsu."

[Skip Sandwich]

A point has been raised that perhaps song mimicking is too powerful, at least in regards to Battle Song, ESPECIALLY with Martial Arts still running around. So, do we nerf it's % hit rate as we did Cheer Song? Or do we give it some other unique function, such as a field-wide Berserk?

[Eternal]

I still say the best solution would be to use Xif's stat cap ASM. Much more easily balanced that way, IMO.

[Skip Sandwich]

I was not even aware that we had something like that, how does it work? Does it just cap raw stats (as displayed in the status screen) or does it cap adjusted stats as well?

[LightningHax]

Stat gain/break cap + Maintenance prevents stat break
WW/XX = Lower Limit which the stat can be reduced.
YY/ZZ = Upper Limit which the stat can be raised.
For example, a lower limit of 1/3 and a upper limit of 1/4 for someone with 18PA, would be:
lower cap: 18PA - (18PA * 1/3) = 12PA
upper cap: 18PA + (18PA * 1/4) = 22PA
This hack takes full consideration of equipment.

It only caps adjusted stats. Also, Maintenance preventing stat breaks could make it worth the JP.

[CT5Holy]

What are people's thoughts on increasing the range of most magic by 1? (Katon, Suiton, Raiton are obviously getting their range reduced) Offensive magic isn't too great - 40 Fa makes damage garbage, and at current ranges, it's easy for mages to be midcharged (no midcharge damage bonus is nice, but casters still die/get hurt -> sandbag mode etc). Offensive magic is essentially support - it's anti-sandbag/soften up enemies. It isn't too great at softening up units anyway though cause of 40 Faith. Buffed range would make magic even more of a support than a main source of damage, but mages could possibly squeeze in one more spell before dying.

[Squidgy]

Rant on class stats:

Chemist: Lots of MA/MP on a job set which doesn't use it, but not more MA than mage jobs. Should probably be 10 speed, to be an alternative to the Thief Itembots, but would require hits to PA/MA.
Mediator: Just really low all around, maybe good for a speedy Geomancy unit? But Geomancy scales multiplicatively, so slight drops in stats have a large impact. Mediator range isn't too amazing, so the health could use a boost, along with every other stat. PA only helps books/daggers, so it can be ignored as a perk if it were to get boosted.

Archer: Little low on MP considering Cover Fire costs 12 (was this 'cause of Conc? Haven't seen this used in ages.) and Hawk's Eye of 8, which I've never seen.
Wizard/Summoner: All the mage stats are so similar because they want the same thing, flat MA, but Oracle/Priest/Sage/Bard get more health, and the MP loss is hard to judge the importance of. Maybe these two could get even more MP base? Also Summoner have Books available, but terrible PA.
Samurai: Really low HP for a melee unit, but armor makes up for it... maybe more HP would help though. Dunno why MP is so high when Draw Out costs nothing.
Ninja: Really low stats, but nice CEv and innate Two Swords... which I find to be overpriced. Maybe boost stats a bit, ditch the innate, and lower the price a lot? MP's too low considering the costs on Ninjitsu skills.

Squire: Too good at everything. High HP, MP, PA, MA, Move, equips nearly everything. MP doesn't need to be so high, especially with robes available. All-around better than Geomancers, the best stat job in vanilla. Probably should knock everything down a little bit.
Paladin: High HP/PA, AND Armor, Shield, Katana/Sword for optimal stat buffing. The only reason I'm not using two Nikos in Save Me is because I don't want to... it'd be the best choice though.
Monk: Highest HP/PA with innate Martial Arts... 9 speed also? All at the cost of a hat, which'll be circumvented by Equip Armor, or a Ribbon/Cachusha.
Thief: Best speed/CEv, good HP. Best Move/Jump. No MP, but plenty of skillsets don't use MP.
Sage: Best mage stats with average PA.

Nerf suggestions for the best? Well, make the tradeoffs more noticeable. Thief/Paladin having terrible MP is a good one, but it's not enough given the great no-mana skillsets (that and Cross Helmets). Thief should only have more speed or CEv or health or mobility... maybe even two of those... compared to Ninjas, Squires ability to equip near everything means they can suffer a bit all around, and be worse than Geomancers overall. Monk and Paladin have the best in the most important areas, HP and PA, for clothed and armored. Make one the best for HP, one the best for PA, and probably ditch the Monk 9 speed. Sage doesn't need high HP due to absorb equips with the all-target magic, and high PA is a nice flavor touch for book use, but being tied for highest MA doesn't really fit with the nice HP and minute PA perk.

[Malroth]

Drop monks and paladins to 7 speed  and give Samurai either more HP or innate 2 hands

[CT5Holy]

Instead of ((PA+4)/2)*MA, make it (PA/2)*MA instead. Max (or at least close to max) damage Geomancy would be at 120, and the Geomancy user would be fairly squishy, too (~275 HP). Squidgy's Squires as they are would do 100 instead of 140. Damage should be more manageable. Also keep in mind that these numbers are for units fully (or almost fully) optimized for Elemental.
Making Elemental Faith-based would cripple its damage output (well, I suppose a different formula would be used, but I'm still against it) considering how many 40 Faith units there are.

Agree with Innate Two Hands for Samurai (I think I mentioned this at some point) and Two Hands, Two Swords being overpriced (I'd say -150-200 JP). Disagree with 7 speed units. Much too slow. Especially with Haste nerf (7 Speed Hasted = effectively 9 speed).
Also not a fan of Paladins being able to equip Katanas. Not much reason to go with Samurais for melee damage IMO.
Don't see why 10 Speed Chemists would need a hit to PA/MA when Thieves have decent PA. I think 9 or 10 Speed Chemists would be fine.
+1 PA/MA to Geomancers? This would make them the ideal Geomancy user as they would equal current Squire Geomancy damage but also have a secondary. Squire still has many other uses.
Talk Skill range +1 and/or different formula? Current formula demands high MA mage for decent reliability, and locks out low MA units from using it effectively.
Hawk's Eye CT down to 4? It certainly isn't impressive, not to mention Repeating Fist does the unevadable attack thing a lot better.
And that brings me to Abandon - I think it'd be ok to have Abandon double evasion again. Shield and Mantle evasion percentages are low enough that it probably won't be a big deal (well, max P-Ev setup gives ~80% evasion from front and sides, ~50% evasion from behind (and yes, I included everyone's innate Weapon Guard)). Awareness is still great for high C-Ev classes/those who want good evasion for attacks from behind, and there's still a good amount of unevadable attacks. And RNG hate, for what it's worth. XD