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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Reks

I use Raise for the speed and accuracy, but as Andrew said...
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

silentkaster

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on October 23, 2015, 02:30:51 am
I really question whether Raise should restore 45% HP instead of 50. Because at 50% HP or above, the AI will not bother healing. This means you have a revived unit but he remains at ~50% HP, which makes him an easy target. On the flip side, some may choose Raise over something like Revive or Fairy because they judge its not necessary to heal above 50% and just jump right back into the action instead of wasting an extra turn healing. So my question is, do you prefer your unit staying at 50-60% HP or you'd rather have them heal themselves or be healed beyond that?


Yeah, I wouldn't touch Raise, really. Raise 2 is obviously always great, but it works best on teams that might be a bit slower and have higher HP and/or tankier units. It's kinda slow, but it's worth the risk of having the enemy, who is often going to be faster than you, waste two or more turns taking down the unit that got hit with Raise 2.

I use Raise usually under the following circumstances:
1. I don't have enough JP to get Raise 2
2. I can't get short charge and Raise 2 together, and I'm worried about my Raise 2s getting midcharged.
3. I'm using a strategy that having Raise instead of Raise 2 would help propel (Balance or Moonlight would be obvious choices).
4. I'm trying to manipulate CT where having Raise would benefit me over Raise 2 (for example, having a dual wielding thief be faster than by Raise user...then the Raise user would cast Raise just in time for the thief to get a turn and advance where Raise 2 would make the thief miss his/her turn.)

So shifting it down by 5 won't affect much about the first 3 (tiny nerf, tiny nerf and tiny buff respectively) but it could hugely impact number 4. If said thief has item or something and decides to heal instead of attack, then my strategy goes out the window. (Of course, then it would just mean you can't use that strategy any more which isn't the end of the world...still though...something to note.)

One thing I will mention is that while at 50% HP they won't go for a direct heal, they will go for healing buffs at anything less than 100%. Spells like Reraise, Wall, Regen, Iron Will/Protect Shell, Mad Science...and of course always Nurse cuz the AI loves that ability.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

dw6561

I don't really know if raise should be lowered to 45%. I also use raise primarily for the accuracy on low faith teams where raise 2 is not a viable option. If your unit has regen or move-HP up, it really isn't too much of a problem and I like to have my units get right back into fighting instead of healing.

Speaking of raise/raise 2, I encountered a problem when designing Wind Walkers for the first time. My Scholar would midcharge Raise 2 with Fairy (or was it fairy with raise?), rendering it useless and wasting turns. It's probably a spell CT/AI thing, but I just wanted to mention that if anyone else has had the same issue.

Also, Fairy has the same CT as raise, but only recovers 33% HP. I remember someone saying that fairy's HP healing was insufficient but I may be imagining things. Really, I don't think the AOE of fairy really justifies the much lower accuracy or the lower healing, so I think fairy could get at least a hit percentage buff if anything.
  • Modding version: PSX
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Andrew

Quote from: dw6561 on October 23, 2015, 12:13:23 pm
<snip>

Also, Fairy has the same CT as raise, but only recovers 33% HP. I remember someone saying that fairy's HP healing was insufficient but I may be imagining things. Really, I don't think the AOE of fairy really justifies the much lower accuracy or the lower healing, so I think fairy could get at least a hit percentage buff if anything.


What if Fairy's healing, accuracy, and JP cost were increased to 50%, Hit_F(MA+80%) and 300?  An AoE Raise with a lower chance to land sounds fine to me... perhaps it could become a better counter to hard-hitting AoE damage skills?  (Especially in small maps)
  • Modding version: PSX

Kurosabes

I don't mind it being 33% healing (though I wouldn't mind more accuracy either), however I find it inconvenient that Summon Magic lacks status recovery. Maybe something could be thrown alongside Dead, like Cancel: Dead - <blank> - <blank>. Lots of possibilities here so I've left blank for discussion if people agree on it.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

reinoe

Hello everyone.  This is something I'm pretty shocked hasn't been mentioned yet.  With many of the HP totals increasing previously, I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention of Green Beret and Flashhat.  These two items received no adjustments with the most recent update.  Furthermore with BLACK HOOD getting 30 mp, it makes these two items nearly obsolete.

I would propose that

Both Green Beret and Flash hat receive +15 HP and +20 MP.  This way if someone wants MP they don't simply default to Blackhood or Golden Hairpin.

Furthermore The MOVE+1 and Elemental resistance should make them more competitive with Black Hood's raw HP.
My dreams can come true!

Reks

Quote from: reinoe on October 25, 2015, 02:40:43 pm
Hello everyone.  This is something I'm pretty shocked hasn't been mentioned yet.  With many of the HP totals increasing previously, I'm surprised there hasn't been any mention of Green Beret and Flashhat.  These two items received no adjustments with the most recent update.  Furthermore with BLACK HOOD getting 30 mp, it makes these two items nearly obsolete.

I would propose that

Both Green Beret and Flash hat receive +15 HP and +20 MP.  This way if someone wants MP they don't simply default to Blackhood or Golden Hairpin.

Furthermore The MOVE+1 and Elemental resistance should make them more competitive with Black Hood's raw HP.


I personally use the Green Beret far more than any other hat. I love the movement, even if the HP provided isn't as much as the Black Hood. Flash Hat could use a slight buff, but do remember that it halves three different elements and tends to be used on defensive units to resist Ninjas and Scholars
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dw6561

I wouldn't mind the flash hat or the green beret getting some more MP.

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on October 25, 2015, 04:56:08 am
I don't mind it being 33% healing (though I wouldn't mind more accuracy either), however I find it inconvenient that Summon Magic lacks status recovery. Maybe something could be thrown alongside Dead, like Cancel: Dead - <blank> - <blank>. Lots of possibilities here so I've left blank for discussion if people agree on it.


How about cancel: dead, stop, and something like undead? This way it can be used to counter stop. Esuna could do the same, but I think it has plenty of statuses right now as does stigma magic. As a side note, would making it cure both undead and dead allow it to raise undead characters, or is undead coded in such a way that it is not possible?
  • Modding version: PSX
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CT5Holy

uhhhhh the extra Move/Jump and elemental resistance already give plenty of reason to use Green Beret / Flash Hat over Black Hood... I'd prob use Flash Hat over Black Hood in most situations, honestly. Both of those hats are seeing plenty of use. I think Arena's Head / Body equips are at an excellent place in that they're basically all viable / usable -> there's no obvious choice -> interesting decisions.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Gaignun

I'm going to go with the popular opinion that Raise stays at 50% for reasons that silentkaster mentioned.

@dw6561: Concerning Fairy, I suggested increasing Fairy's healing to 50% at the cost of +1 CT back in July. A few people were for it, but Shintroy raised a dissenting opinion. The discussion pretty much ended there.

Be that as it may, I am glad to see others independently suggest that Fairy could use a buff.  If everyone cannot be convinced by my suggestion for 50% healing, then I personally would settle for adding status healing of some sort instead.  Cancel: Undead would be cool since there are currently so few ways to heal this status.  I wouldn't want to make Summon Magic too robust against status ailments, though, since the skillset is already pretty versatile.

Kurosabes

That would hurt them for 33% HP before curing the status. I wonder if the AI would use something like that. Well, it might... *glares at Lancer "waking up" an ally*

Berserk is also difficult to heal. I imagine the Fairy appease the enraged individual with calming words.
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Gaignun

It is certainly worth testing!  Counter Tackle and Transfusion already self-inflict HP damage.  Finding new situations in which this behaviour applies could expand this class of skills.

silentkaster

I was thinking about the Nether Seer's Raise ability. I was thinking that instead of having it be like any of the other revival methods, that it Raises like Cursed Ring...perhaps not undead but with a random amount of HP. Since it's already been mentioned, should the % chance for it to hit be based on unfury?
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

October 29, 2015, 03:09:19 am #2053 Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 04:59:23 am by Gaignun
Revival with random HP would be neat if achievable.  I am for it!
Edit: Upon implementation, it might be worthwhile to inspect the algorithm that determines Phoenix Down's or the Undead status's heal amount.  I am wondering if there is some value that determines this amount's deviation.

Concerning the formula modifier, the choice between UnFury and UnFaith is basically a choice between mages and melee units (... fighters after D&D?).  UnFury is strong against mages and incompatible with fighters, and UnFaith is strong against fighters and incompatible with mages.

(By incompatibility, I mean that the Netherseer and its teammates cannot heal and support each other well with their respective skills.)

At present, I believe we already have many skillsets compatible with mages, but comparatively few with fighters.  White, Summon, and Black magicks can be used to heal multiple high-faith units at once.  On the other hand, only Punch Art's Earth Slash can be used to heal multiple high-fury units at once.  Hence, high-fury teams typically fall back on weaker forms of healing and revival, such as Item.  This imbalance is what makes damage control on high-fury teams comparatively difficult.

Consequently, I believe that making all Nethermagicks UnFaith, including revival, would be more satisfactory for the sake of variety.  Would others be inclined to agree?

Kurosabes

I believe UnFaith would be better as well. I did say something of a similar degree a while back. I'll quote myself for easier reference:

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on August 14, 2015, 04:56:10 am
Nether spells: Not really a reply to anything, just a thought. I think it's a nice idea, but they really should be UnFaith-based. 40/40 units aren't that common builds and are hardly a threat. 40/70 units take more damage from regular spells. The 70/40 units are the real threat to Wizards. UnFaith Nethers would still work on the 40/40 units as well.


While I was wrong about 40/40 units (they can be, in fact, quite threatening), the rest still applies.
  • Modding version: PSX
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Gaignun

November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am #2055 Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 11:55:35 pm by Gaignun
Many proposals have been thrown around over the last few months. (Thank you for your input everybody!)

Accordingly, I have assembled another proposal summary to help everybody who has not been closely following the discussions get on the same page.  I tried to include every proposal that occurred in the last ~20 pages or so.  This should be the most comprehensive summary to date. Proposals that raised a hitherto unsettled debate, as well as those intended for patches beyond 1.40 (e.g., Lancer skillset redesign, Onion Knight, MP Regen, monsters?), are omitted.

I sneaked in a few minor ones of my own as well (e.g., (Hi-)Ether restoring an extra 10 MP).  Concerning shields, at least one status immunity is added to the elemental shields.  It would be much appreciated if people could provide input on these immunities.

If there are other proposals that are not included here, or if there are proposals that are in conflict with what is written here, please let me know and I'll accommodate them.

Skills/items that could use a redesign, but require a consensus:
Ninjutsu's Tsumazuku
Cloth weapon class
Shieldrender (sword) (I personally would prefer a radical redesign rather than an incremental change)
Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan, Holy Lance (spears) (Preferably redesigned for balanced two-hand use to accommodate Samurai)


SQUIRE: Can now equip helmets and poles. Can no longer equip books
PALADIN: +5 C-EV. Can now equip flails. Can no longer equip katana
MONK: -15 MP, -1 PA
THIEF: -1 PA, +5 C-EV
TIME MAGE: Can now equip poles
SUMMONER: +20 MP
LANCER: +1 SP, -1 Jump
SAMURAI: +1 PA, -1 MA. Can now equip spears and longbows
SCHOLAR: Redesigned (See "New Jobs")
BARD: No change OR merged with Dancer
DANCER: No change OR merged with Bard


BASIC SKILL
Heal: Range increased from 1 to 3, now also heals Innocent and Sadness
Yell: Now also adds Regen
Wish: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80
Ultima: Add smart-targeting, reduce CT to 4 too?

ITEM
Ether: MP heal increased from 30 to 40
Hi-Ether: MP heal increased from 70 to 80
Maintenance: Changed to a movement ability?

SNIPE
Hawk's Eye: No longer bypasses Blind.

PUNCH ART
Revive: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80

WHITE MAGIC
Protect: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Protect, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100
Shell: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Shell, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100.
Regen: Moved to Lore

BLACK MAGIC
Poison: Moved to Lore
Frog: Moved to Yin Yang Magic
Death: Moved to Lore
Bio: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Bio 2: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Magic Missile: New skill, Dmg_Fury(MA*WP), Weapon element, Weapon proc (if possible), 4 Rng, 6 MP, 0 CT, 150 JP (Essentially a ranged melee attack at the cost of MP.  Enabling the weapon proc will promote synergy with Fire/Ice/Thunder/Poison/Dragon rods)

TIME MAGIC
Haste: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Slow: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Stop: Accuracy modifier decreased from 70 to 65
Balance: Moved to Lore
Half of MP: Inherited from Summon Magic

SUMMON MAGIC
Titan: Now ignores M-EV, MP cost increased from 25 to 35, JP cost increased from 150 to 250
Carbunkle: MP cost removed
Fairy: AoE increased from 1 to 2.  Now cancels Berserk as well.
MP Switch: New reaction ability. Incurred damage removes MP instead of HP; excess damage removes HP. 300 JP
Half of MP: Moved to Time Magic

STEAL
Heretic: Moved to Ninjutsu
Good Luck: New skill. 100% add: Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison, 0 CT, 0 MP, Allies only, 200 JP
Bad Luck: 100% add: Poison, Death Sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen, 0 CT, 0 MP, Enemies only, 200 JP
Quickening: Removed from the game
Awareness: Moved to Lore
Damage Split: Inherited from Lore

YIN YANG MAGIC
Spell Absorb: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max MP. MP cost removed.
Life Steal: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max HP.  CT reduced from 3 to 1.
Dispel Magic: Now also removes Stop, Fury, and Sadness
Frog: Inherited from Black Magic

JUMP
CT formula changed from 50/SP to 21/Jump
Equip Polearm: Now also allows cloths to be equipped

DRAW OUT
Bizen Boat: AoE reduced from 2 to 1. Range increased from 0 to 1.
Heaven's Cloud: Made PA-based. No longer adds Slow.  Possible formula: (1) Dmg_(PA*6) and 3 AoE, (2) Dmg_(PA*7) and 2 AoE.
Muramasa: Death Sentence proc rate increased from 20% to 25%
Masamune: No longer adds Regen. Now 1 AoE in all directions (like old times).

NINJUTSU
Heretic: Received from Steal
Misogi: New skill, Removes Blind/Silence/Poison/Slow/Don't Move, Self-target, 0 CT, 0 MP, 100 JP
Shuriken: Dmg_(3*SP+80), 0 MP, 0 CT, MV Rng, 33% Add: Poison, M-Evadable, 150 JP
Speed +1: New movement ability. Adds 1 SP. 500 JP.

LORE
See "New Jobs"

DANCE
Nameless Dance: No longer adds Slow.  Now adds Death Sentence.


Scholar
Description: Redesigned as a battle mage. Combines the reliability of a tank with the utility of a support mage.  With the status resistance afforded by shields and heavy armor, this class is suited for status management.
--- Male | Female
HP 134 | 125
MP 086 | 092
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 08 | 10
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 0 | 0
Can equip Sword, Rod, Staff, Book, Pole, Shield, Helmet, Armor, Robe, Accessory

LORE
Mad Science: Given to Nether Magic
Bio: Given to Black Magic
Bio 2: Given to Black Magic
Bio 3: Removed from the game
Poison: Inherited from Black Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Regen: Inherited from White Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Balance: Inherited from Time Magic
Death: Inherited from Black Magic
Tornado: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Protect/Shell, Wind element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Quake:  Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Haste/Regen, Earth element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Damage Split: Given to Steal
Distribute: Given to Nether Magic
Awareness: Inherited from Steal, now also applies EV even when charging/performing
Cleanse: New reaction ability. Remove Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Oil, Slow, Innocent, and Sadness when taking HP damage. 200 JP
Equip Magegear: Now also allows instruments to be equipped

Netherseer
Description: A new class with a Middle Eastern aesthetic. A glass cannon not unlike Wizards, its skillset provides low-faith, high PA teams with a method for AoE damage/absorption, as well as resurrection.
--- Male | Female
HP 113 | 106
MP 072 | 077
SP 08 | 08
PA 12 | 10
MA 06 | 08
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Ninjatou, Katana, Book, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robe, Accessory

NETHER MAGIC
*Note: UF means "UnFaith"*
Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Dark: Dmg_UF(PA*15), Dark elemental, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 300 JP
Mad Science: Inherited from Lore. Formula changed to Hit_UF(PA+90)%. CT reduced from 4 to 3.
Nether Raise: Heal_Rnd(1~100%), Hit_UF(PA+75%), 5 Rng, 0 AoE, 3 CT, 15 MP, Reflectable, 200 JP
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Distribute: Inherited from Lore


SWORDS
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

KATANA
All katana are now forced two-hands and are no longer dual-wieldable.
Asura Knife: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, Fire element, 50% Cast: Asura, Strengthen: Fire removed
Kotetsu Knife: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kotetsu, Strengthen: Dark removed
Bizen Boat: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Bizen Boat
Murasame: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, Restore HP, Immune: Berserk
Heaven's Cloud: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Heaven's Cloud
Kiyomori: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kiyomori
Muramasa: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Muramasa
Kikuichimonji: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kikuichimonji
Masamune: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, 2 Rng, -1 SP, Always: Haste, Immune: Slow
Chirijiraden: 15 WP, 0 W-EV, +1 SP, Initial: Berserk

STAVES
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

GUNS
Stone Gun: Init: Petrify removed
Healing Gun: Replaces Mythril Gun. 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, Restores HP, Forced 2H
Demi Gun: New spellgun. 6 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Rng, ignores EV, 100% Cast: Demi

CROSSBOWS
Night Killer: WP increased from 10 to 12
Bacchus Bow: Replaces Poison Bow. 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Fury
Atheist Bow: Replaces Silencer, 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Innocent
Hunting Bow: WP increased from 10 to 12

LONGBOWS
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Silence Bow: Replaces Atheist Bow, 15 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, 100% Add: Silence

SPEARS
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, gains +2 Jump
Obelisk: Gains +1 Jump

POLES
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H (no change)

BAGS
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add Immune: Poison


All elemental weaknesses are removed.  Status immunities are added in their place.
Genji Shield: 25 P-EV, 0 M-EV, +1 PA, Immune: Blind
Aegis Shield: 0 P-EV, 25 M-EV, +1 MA, Immune: Silence
Zephyr Shield: 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, +1 SP
Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Water, Immune: Faith, Innocent, Fury, Sadness
Gold Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Wind, Immune: Don't Move
Flame Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Poison, Oil
Ice Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Ice, Immune: Slow
Diamond Shield: 5 P-EV, 25 M-EV, Absorb: Holy, Immune: Charm
Platina Shield: 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Absorb: Dark, Immune: Undead
Mirror Shield: Replaces Crystal Shield. 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield. 0 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen
Kaiser Plate: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Strengthen: Ice, Wind, Dark
Escutcheon II: 25 P-EV, 25 M-EV


HEADBANDS
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Init: Haste, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

ROBES
Light Robe: Add Immune: Poison

HELMETS
Genji Helmet: Add Always: Berserk

ARMOR
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Crystal Mail: Add Immune: Stop, Remove Immune: Faith/Innocent


Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump
Reflect Ring: Now Always: Reflect
N-Kai Armlet: Add Immune: Blind
108 Gems: Add Immune: Faith/Innocent/Fury/Sadness/Poison


Fury: Set Brave to 100
Sadness: Set Brave to 0 (or 10 if anything lower than 10 triggers the Chicken status).

Barren

Question about katana being forced two hands? Does this mean that samurais will lose innate two hands then? And if they don't lose innate two hands, how will samurais benefit with katanas being now forced two hands. I agree it should no longer be dual wieldable. Two sword katanas aren't worth much besides from maybe two chirijiradens but that's about it
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

dw6561

I actually agree with that. I tried using two sworded heaven's cloud with short edge once, and it didn't deal enough damage to be viable. It was a good concept too, ninja with snipe that breaks stuff then slows you...

I think the current katanas are great on samurai but not so much on other classes. Asura and Koutetsu Knife boost themselves, sure. But on a southern crossing-Paladin the low WP is a crutch. Heaven's Cloud and Bizen Boat are probably underused (from what I've seen, maybe they just haven't seen any interest lately) because of the absense of elemental boosting and the 100% status proc not being worth the damage output. At least with ninja swords, you get damage partially based off of speed so you can stack stats to make them even more potent. Masamune really needs no explanation.

Is there any way to balance katanas for other classes as well, keeping samurai in mind? If they loose the elemental aspect, they should go up in WP in my opinion. They shouldn't be forced two hands though. Paladins will certainly not benefit from this, making them even worse on Paladin than they are now, and samurai will suffer as well.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

silentkaster

Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am
Many proposals have been thrown around over the last few months. (Thank you for your input everybody!)

Accordingly, I have assembled another proposal summary to help everybody who has not been closely following the discussions get on the same page.  I tried to include every proposal that occurred in the last ~20 pages or so.  This should be the most comprehensive summary to date. Proposals that raised a hitherto unsettled debate, as well as those intended for patches beyond 1.40 (e.g., Lancer skillset redesign, Onion Knight, MP Regen, monsters?), are omitted.

I sneaked in a few minor ones of my own as well (e.g., (Hi-)Ether restoring an extra 10 MP).  Concerning shields, at least one status immunity is added to the elemental shields.  It would be much appreciated if people could provide input on these immunities.

If there are other proposals that are not included here, or if there are proposals that are in conflict with what is written here, please let me know and I'll accommodate them.

Skills/items that could use a redesign, but require a consensus:
Ninjutsu's Tsumazuku
Cloth weapon class
Shieldrender (sword) (I personally would prefer a radical redesign rather than an incremental change)
Spear, Mythril Spear, Partisan, Holy Lance (spears) (Preferably redesigned for balanced two-hand use to accommodate Samurai)


Cool! Thanks for doing that...I'll comment on what I think below. (Were we talking about MP Regen and Monsters for a future, beyond 1.40 patch? Either way, it's fine.)

Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

SQUIRE: Can now equip helmets and poles. Can no longer equip books
PALADIN: +5 C-EV. Can now equip flails. Can no longer equip katana
MONK: -15 MP, -1 PA
THIEF: -1 PA, +5 C-EV
TIME MAGE: Can now equip poles
SUMMONER: +20 MP
LANCER: +1 SP, -1 Jump
SAMURAI: +1 PA, -1 MA. Can now equip spears and longbows
SCHOLAR: Redesigned (See "New Jobs")
BARD: No change OR merged with Dancer
DANCER: No change OR merged with Bard


I guess those are fine? Why is Monk losing PA and MP? Even with the change to the Headbands you're proposing, I think just losing MP would be fine, or perhaps just losing the PA but both seems kinda unnecessary. Pretty fine with everything else.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

BASIC SKILL
Heal: Range increased from 1 to 3, now also heals Innocent and Sadness
Yell: Now also adds Regen
Wish: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80
Ultima: Add smart-targeting, reduce CT to 4 too?

ITEM
Ether: MP heal increased from 30 to 40
Hi-Ether: MP heal increased from 70 to 80
Maintenance: Changed to a movement ability?

SNIPE
Hawk's Eye: No longer bypasses Blind. Now takes weapon's element into account.

PUNCH ART
Revive: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 80

WHITE MAGIC
Protect: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Protect, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100
Shell: Formula changed to Heal_F(MA*5), 100% Add: Shell, MP increased from 6 to 10, CT increased from 1 to 2, JP increased from 50 to 100.
Regen: Moved to Lore

BLACK MAGIC
Poison: Moved to Lore
Frog: Moved to Yin Yang Magic
Death: Moved to Lore
Bio: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Bio 2: Inherited from Lore, made Dark elemental
Magic Missile: New skill, Dmg_Fury(MA*WP), Weapon element, Weapon proc (if possible), 4 Rng, 6 MP, 0 CT, 150 JP (Essentially a ranged melee attack at the cost of MP.  Enabling the weapon proc will promote synergy with Fire/Ice/Thunder/Poison/Dragon rods)

TIME MAGIC
Haste: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Slow: Accuracy modifier increased from 70 to 75
Stop: Accuracy modifier decreased from 70 to 65
Balance: Moved to Lore
Half of MP: Inherited from Summon Magic

SUMMON MAGIC
Titan: Now ignores M-EV, MP cost increased from 25 to 35, JP cost increased from 150 to 250
Carbunkle: MP cost removed
Fairy: AoE increased from 1 to 2.  Now cancels Berserk as well.
MP Switch: New reaction ability. Incurred damage removes MP instead of HP; excess damage removes HP. 300 JP
Half of MP: Moved to Time Magic

STEAL
Heretic: Moved to Ninjutsu
Good Luck: New skill. 100% add: Regen, Reraise, Protect, Shell, or Poison, 0 CT, 0 MP, Allies only
Bad Luck: 100% add: Poison, Death Sentence, Stop, Oil, or Regen, 0 CT, 0 MP, Enemies only
Quickening: Removed from the game
Awareness: Moved to Lore
Damage Split: Inherited from Lore

YIN YANG MAGIC
Spell Absorb: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max MP. MP cost removed.
Life Steal: Now absorbs 33% of the caster's max HP.  CT reduced from 3 to 1.
Dispel Magic: Now also removes Slow and Stop
Frog: Received from Black Magic

JUMP
CT formula changed from 50/SP to 21/Jump
Equip Polearm: Now also allows cloths to be equipped

DRAW OUT
Bizen Boat: AoE reduced from 2 to 1. Range increased from 0 to 1.
Heaven's Cloud: Formula changed to Dmg_(PA*6), AoE increase from 2 to 3. No longer adds Slow.
Muramasa: Death Sentence proc rate increased from 20% to 25%
Masamune: No longer adds Regen. Now 1 AoE in all directions (like old times).

NINJUTSU
Heretic: Received from Steal
Misogi: New skill, Removes Blind/Silence/Poison/Slow/Don't Move, Self-target, 0 CT, 0 MP, 100 JP
Shuriken: Dmg_(3*SP+80), 0 MP, 0 CT, MV Rng, 33% Add: Poison, M-Evadable, 150 JP
Speed UP: New movement ability. Adds 1 SP. 500 JP.

LORE
See "New Jobs"

DANCE
Nameless Dance: No longer adds Slow.  Now adds Death Sentence.


Scholar
Description: Redesigned as a battle mage. Combines the reliability of a tank with the utility of a support mage.  With the status resistance afforded by shields and heavy armor, this class is suited for status management.
--- Male | Female
HP 134 | 125
MP 086 | 092
SP 08 | 08
PA 10 | 08
MA 08 | 10
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 0 | 0
Can equip Sword, Rod, Staff, Book, Pole, Shield, Helmet, Armor, Robe, Accessory

LORE
Mad Science: Given to Nether Magic
Bio: Given to Black Magic
Bio 2: Given to Black Magic
Bio 3: Removed from the game
Poison: Inherited from Black Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Regen: Inherited from White Magic, CT reduced from 1 to 0
Balance: Inherited from Time Magic
Death: Inherited from Black Magic
Tornado: Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Protect/Shell, Wind element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert, 3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Quake:  Dmg_F(MA*8), 50% Cancel: Haste/Regen, Earth element, 5 Rng, 2 AoE,  2 Vert3 CT, 20 MP, 250 JP
Damage Split: Given to Steal
Distribute: Given to Nether Magic
Awareness: Inherited from Steal, now also applies EV even when charging/performing
Cleanse: New reaction ability. Remove Blind, Silence, Poison, Don't Move, Oil, Slow, Innocent, and Sadness when taking HP damage. 200 JP
Equip Magegear: Now also allows instruments to be equipped

Netherseer
Description: A new class with a Middle Eastern aesthetic. A glass cannon not unlike Wizards, its skillset provides low-faith, high PA teams with a method for AoE damage/absorption, as well as resurrection.
--- Male | Female
HP 113 | 106
MP 072 | 077
SP 08 | 08
PA 12 | 10
MA 06 | 08
MV 3 | 3
JM 3 | 3
EV 5 | 5
Can equip Ninjatou, Katana, Book, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robe, Accessory

NETHER MAGIC
*Note: UF means "UnFaith"*
Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Dark: Dmg_UF(PA*15), Dark elemental, 6 Rng, 0 AoE, 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 300 JP
Mad Science: Inherited from Lore. Formula changed to Hit_UF(PA+90)%. CT reduced from 4 to 3.
Nether Raise: Heal_Rnd(1~100%), Hit_UF(PA+75%), 5 Rng, 0 AoE, 3 CT, 15 MP, Reflectable, 200 JP
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 3 Vert, 0 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Distribute: Inherited from Lore



If I don't comment about something, it means I'm fairly indifferent or in mild support of the ability.
Maintenance being moved to Movement? I'm okay with that. Although it's not a movement ability in the sense of the word, I think it will see a lot more use when switching there. Not a bad idea.

Hawk's Eye already is Weapon Elemental. I thought it wasn't until seeing a recent match where a unit stepped in front of her ally being targeted with Hawk's Eye in order to receive healing. It just needs to be changed in the Master Guide.

With Dispel Magic...for some reason, the AI loves using that spell...probably because most players carry Haste on their team and the AI tries to get rid of it so frequently. If it got rid of Slow, carrying the spell could become cumbersome as I think the AI would just spam it. I was thinking perhaps if we want to add something to Dispel Magic, we could add getting rid of Stop and perhaps Innocent/Faith/Sadness/Fury (though be aware the AI would likely associate Sadness and Innocent as Negative status while considering Fury and Faith as positive status).

With Speed UP, I'm assuming that you don't mean the unit gains +1 Speed with every Movement on the Map and that you mean just add +1 Speed to the base stat. In that case, can we call it Speed +1 instead of Speed UP? With Move-MP UP and Move-HP UP these imply as you move around the map you gain MP and HP respectively. Defense UP and Magic Defend UP imply a 1/3 boost in those stats. Move +1 grants an extra +1 Move like you're proposing to do for speed so I'd prefer to keep those consistent if possible.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

SWORDS
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

KATANA
All katana are now forced two-hands and are no longer dual-wieldable.
Asura Knife: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, Fire element, 50% Cast: Asura, Strengthen: Fire removed
Kotetsu Knife: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kotetsu, Strengthen: Dark removed
Bizen Boat: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Bizen Boat
Murasame: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, Restore HP, Immune: Berserk
Heaven's Cloud: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Heaven's Cloud
Kiyomori: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kiyomori
Muramasa: 13 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Muramasa
Kikuichimonji: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Kikuichimonji
Masamune: 16 WP, 15 W-EV, 2 Rng, -1 SP, Always: Haste, Immune: Slow
Chirijiraden: 15 WP, 15 W-EV, +1 SP, Initial: Berserk

STAVES
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

GUNS
Stone Gun: Init: Petrify removed
Healing Gun: Replaces Mythril Gun. 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, Restores HP, Forced 2H
Demi Gun: New spellgun. 6 WP, 0 W-EV, 6 Rng, ignores EV, 100% Cast: Demi

CROSSBOWS
Night Killer: WP increased from 10 to 12
Bacchus Bow: Replaces Poison Bow. 10 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Fury
Atheist Bow: Replaces Silencer, 12 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Add: Innocent
Hunting Bow: WP increased from 10 to 12

LONGBOWS
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Silence Bow: Replaces Atheist Bow, 15 WP, 0 W-EV, 4 Rng, 100% Add: Silence

SPEARS
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, gains +2 Jump
Obelisk: Gains +1 Jump

POLES
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H (no change)

BAGS
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add Immune: Poison



I'm not so sure about Katanas becoming forced 2H. One thing that you're doing for Samurai is adding a point of PA. One unique ability the Samurai already has is to 2H any weapon it carriers if it is indeed 2 Hands but now that unique ability almost gets forced out. Giving them spears might help a bit, but then that's the only options the Samurai get for 2H and...eh...I'm not sure about that. I might agree with making SOME katana forced 2H but not all of them. For example, with the proposed Masamune, I'd argue that should be forced 2H because it seems pretty good. But some of the others, I'd say just lower the WP and let them be 2H. IDK...thoughts on this?

As far as the rods...Octagon rod casting frog instead of direct proc at a higher percentage is interesting. It would be evadable and faith based I'd assume? Still, being 2H, I'd like to see the proc percentage lowered from 50%...I believe that's a little too high. I assume the same for Ivory Rod (an evadable Stop spell being cast) but IDK. I think I'd still like to see that lowered.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

All elemental weaknesses are removed.  Status immunities are added in their place.
Genji Shield: 25 P-EV, 0 M-EV, +1 PA, Immune: Blind
Aegis Shield: 0 P-EV, 25 M-EV, +1 MA, Immune: Silence
Zephyr Shield: 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, +1 SP
Mythril Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Earth, Immune: Faith, Innocent, Fury, Sadness
Gold Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Lightning, Immune: Don't Move
Flame Shield: 15 P-EV, 20 M-EV, Absorb: Fire, Immune: Poison, Oil
Ice Shield: 20 P-EV, 15 M-EV, Absorb: Ice, Immune: Slow
Diamond Shield: 5 P-EV, 25 M-EV, Absorb: Holy, Immune: Charm
Platina Shield: 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Absorb: Dark, Immune: Undead
Mirror Shield: Replaces Crystal Shield. 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield. 0 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen
Escutcheon II: 25 P-EV, 25 M-EV


No comments on this section, really. I'm fine with everything.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

HEADBANDS
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Init: Haste, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

ROBES
Light Robe: Add Immune: Poison

HELMETS
Genji Helmet: Add Always: Berserk

ARMOR
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Crystal Mail: Add Immune: Stop, Remove Immune: Faith/Innocent


Pretty fine with those changes too.

Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump
Reflect Ring: Now Always: Reflect
N-Kai Armlet: Add Immune: Blind
108 Gems: Add Immune: Faith/Innocent/Fury/Sadness/Poison


I'd like to either get an extra accessory or modify an existing accessory to absorb Water. Probably Wind too. These two elements only have two things in the game that absorb them if I'm not mistaken. Maybe combine one with Holy Absorb? Only one accessory absorbs Holy also. I also think Defense Ring absorbing two elements is a bit overkill.


Quote from: Gaignun on November 05, 2015, 05:01:59 am

Fury: Set Brave to 100
Sadness: Set Brave to 0 (or 10 if anything lower than 10 triggers the Chicken status).



Seems fine to me.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

November 05, 2015, 11:01:28 am #2059 Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 11:18:27 am by Gaignun
A few responses:


I'll provide a summary concerning this change to the best of my ability.

On page 88, WKW proposed making katana force-2H in exchange for a WP boost.  I believe his intention was to make katana a more powerful version of knight swords so that Paladins had a reason to consider using one over the other.  At the same time he also suggested that innate 2H be moved from Samurai to Lancer.  I personally was against this second suggestion since two-handed spears on Lancers would outperform Lancers' own Jump ability.

Later on Shintroy backed the force-2H proposal, and meanwhile suggested that Paladin lose katana and gain flails.  Personally, I think the opportunity cost of a Paladin equipping a force-2H katana is too high even with the WP boost; if a Paladin is going to surrender his shield, it's hard to settle for anything other than the excellent set of knight swords we currently have.  Therefore, I am fine with Paladin losing katana.  In exchange, Netherseer, a glass cannon with much higher PA and no access to knight swords nor shields, gets katana as its go-to WP weapon.

At around the same time, Reks (and Barren?) suggested that katana receive Draw Out procs.

What is currently seen is my best attempt at combining WKW's, Shintroy's, and Reks' (and Barren's?) individual suggestions: Katana that are force-2H, have high WP, proc their respective Draw Out abilities where appropriate, and cannot be equipped by Paladin.  I have no idea if this combination satisfies anybody, even WKW, Shintroy, or Reks... (or Barren?)


Nope!  Not as far as I can tell.
Samurai's two-handable weapons are now spears.  However, these spears need to be designed!  Even if we scrap the idea of making katana force-2H, then these spears will still need to be designed, so feel free to pitch in/reiterate your suggestions.


To be brutally honest, these changes are primarily intended to keep monks from wrecking house with Nether Magic.  Currently, AoE skills are primarily MA-based, and no job has higher than 12 base MA.  With Nether Magic becoming the first PA-based AoE skill set, I thought it was fitting to reign in Monks' PA a bit.  To retain Monks' current damage output with Punch Art skills, we can do one of two things:

1. Introduce a headband that grants +1 PA, but does not grant any MP for Nether Magic spam.  This is what is currently written down.  The headband that gets this +1 PA is the headband that is currently weakest in the meta-game: Choice Band
2. Increase the multiplier of Punch Art skills by 1.  In this case, Choice Band would not get +1 PA, but would be redesigned in some other way.

Now that I think about it, I kind of like the second option more.


Sure, we can remove Cancel: Slow.  I think the primary suggestion was to add Cancel: Stop.  Cancel: Slow was thrown in their by association, but the apprehension about this causing the AI to spam Dispel Magic is grounded.

And Dispel Magic already cancels Faith and Innocent.  You'll probably never see it cancel the latter, though, since the status ailment itself prevents Dispel Magic from succeeding!  We can throw Cancel: Fury/Sadness in there as well for thematic consistency.


Yes, by Speed UP I mean Speed +1.  I'll change it.


Concerning new accessories, I would love to discuss any suggestions.  Feel free to throw something together!