• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 

FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

dw6561

Okay, so on the stream we were talking about how the haste and slow spells were kind of useless. I've come up with a few ways to possibly make it better:

1. We could make them a little more accurate, and increase the CT of Haste/Slow 2 to compensate. Even just the accuracy would help.
2. We could have just one haste spell and one slow spell.
3. We could make haste/slow instant or 1 CT. Though it might overshadow masamune or make the AI keep spamming it.

We could also just leave them as is, but I want to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Gaignun

I personally like increased accuracy the most, and possibly also lower MP cost.  These changes make the skills easier to use on non-casters.

silentkaster

Quote from: Gaignun on December 04, 2015, 06:20:19 am
I personally like increased accuracy the most, and possibly also lower MP cost.  These changes make the skills easier to use on non-casters.


Agreed. These skills aren't supposed to be particularly good since Haste 2 and Slow 2 exist. They are supposed to be there (I believe) to grab if you run low on JP or whatnot but still want that unit to use Haste or Slow. Right now, however, I feel they are not appealing enough. Since they're inaccurate, reflectable, evadable (in the case of Slow), cost significant MP more than they should, don't have good AOE, etc, there are a couple things that can be buffed. I don't think moving the spells up to 85% base would be bad at all since Evasion will still kick in against Slow and Haste still will require good compatibility to be fairly accurate. Not to mention, these skills will be useless with Reflect showing up on a team (at least against that/those unit(s).) Moving them down to 8 MP also puts them on the same level with Yell (which I still believe needs Regen), which either could be the better ability depending on the situation. (Example, do you want a 100% Add: Haste ability that isn't reflectable and is instant with no AOE? Or do you want a possibly slightly inaccurate spell that has a small AOE but is reflectable and requires a short charge time?)
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Barren

I was doing some quake healing testing. I noticed the first time around my scholar with 13 MA only healed herself for only 107 with earth boosting. Now next time she uses it, it's now 207. No MA UP or faith up or anything like that. I think the RNG needs to be fixed in terms of calculated damage. Geomancy also seems to be coming up with wrong numbers when regular geomancy damage and counter flood damage occurs
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Kurosabes

A similar thing happens to my Grand Cross Paladin. The healing goes beyond its limits, almost doubling. I can only guess, but it may have to do with the way Absorb works now. That, or my quick animation fix via ShiShi somehow messed with that part of the game... I can't recall it happening in someone else's recordings. Will have to pay more attention to that when there's absorb teams in action.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Andrew

Quote from: Barren on December 06, 2015, 09:03:59 am
I was doing some quake healing testing. I noticed the first time around my scholar with 13 MA only healed herself for only 107 with earth boosting. Now next time she uses it, it's now 207. No MA UP or faith up or anything like that. I think the RNG needs to be fixed in terms of calculated damage. Geomancy also seems to be coming up with wrong numbers when regular geomancy damage and counter flood damage occurs

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on December 06, 2015, 01:00:16 pm
A similar thing happens to my Grand Cross Paladin. The healing goes beyond its limits, almost doubling. I can only guess, but it may have to do with the way Absorb works now. That, or my quick animation fix via ShiShi somehow messed with that part of the game... I can't recall it happening in someone else's recordings. Will have to pay more attention to that when there's absorb teams in action.


I can't recall suffering from this issue, and I haven't edited my ISOs beyond simply patching them with Arena.
  • Modding version: PSX

Barren

It would be a good idea to keep an eye on those numbers since I used the shishi sprite editor to fix the patch. Though I think there could be more to it than that. Remember one of CT5Holy's stream. There was a counter flood error in terms of damage and he didn't use shishi
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Kurosabes

It's possible that CT5Holy did the ShiShi change as well. I've read patching over a patch can do weird things, but I didn't think ShiShi could mess with game mechanics. I could be completely off though. You could try reproducing the Quake absorb scenario with a new Arena ISO and see if the problem persists.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Reks

Quote from: Barren on December 06, 2015, 09:03:59 am
I was doing some quake healing testing. I noticed the first time around my scholar with 13 MA only healed herself for only 107 with earth boosting. Now next time she uses it, it's now 207. No MA UP or faith up or anything like that. I think the RNG needs to be fixed in terms of calculated damage. Geomancy also seems to be coming up with wrong numbers when regular geomancy damage and counter flood damage occurs


In my recent match that you recorded, my Samurai did far less with her first Holy in the second round than all of the rest she did, including those on the same Geomancer.

So it might actually be an issue.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Gaignun

Holy does less damage than it should from time to time for me, too.  It is difficult to reproduce, though.  I would suspect it is some kind of register bug, like the Shell flag is being retained in a register when damage is being calculated.

Is Shell or Magic Defend UP present on any unit when spells do less damage?

Quote from: silentkaster on December 04, 2015, 12:23:35 pmMoving [Haste and Shell] down to 8 MP also puts them on the same level with Yell (which I still believe needs Regen), which either could be the better ability depending on the situation. (Example, do you want a 100% Add: Haste ability that isn't reflectable and is instant with no AOE? Or do you want a possibly slightly inaccurate spell that has a small AOE but is reflectable and requires a short charge time?)


That is a good assessment:
Haste: AoE
Yell: Pierces reflect, instant, also applies Regen

silentkaster

Minor thing, but can we lower the JP of Consecration? It sits at the same JP as Raise 2 and while Consecration is instant and not faith dependent, it is speed dependant and does cost MP. Consecration can be situational and either depends on the enemy team having cursed rings or Zombie/Zombie procs hitting (speaking of which, everything that can cause Zombie is evadable with the exception of Quicksand [which hardly comes into play as far as a terrain for it goes] which is totally fine but adds to my point of Consecration being situational) while Raise 2 is pretty much universally a great skill and both have bases at 70 percent.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

silentkaster

I hate double posts, but this is a point that keeps coming up and in my testing and matches I've seen, I want to make it clear from what I've seen. Mimes don't have infinite MP. They do not use MP in using spells, that's true. However, similar to all other casters, they must start the turn with enough MP to cast the spell. What this means is that if they are hit with a Bizen Boat, Witch Hunt, etc, they will lose their MP and if they don't have enough after that to cast the spell, they will not be able to use the spell. Also, while there is currently no spell in Arena that would cost over a Mime's base MP, if one were to be added (say, Meteor for 70 MP or something), the Mime would be unable to use it at base...he/she would have to equip equipment to have enough MP to use said ability.

I only mention this since I see phrases like, "Mimes have infinite MP," or, "It's worthless to have Move-MP UP on a mime," because these statements aren't true, technically.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

I would love to compile a list of all these quirky bugs and hidden effects.

A few weeks ago, I encountered a most peculiar bug with Hawk's Eye in which I knocked a unit out of bounds and soft froze the game.  The map was Slums of Goug.  An enemy unit was standing atop the wooden shack on the tile indicated in the attached picture.  One of my archers hit this unit with Hawk's Eye.  The attack was a critical hit. The unit was knocked off the shack and drifted off into the blue expanse.

I wonder if it is possible to knock units off this tile in vanilla FFT.

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on December 17, 2015, 02:06:49 pm
I would love to compile a list of all these quirky bugs and hidden effects.

A few weeks ago, I encountered a most peculiar bug with Hawk's Eye in which I knocked a unit out of bounds and soft froze the game.  The map was Slums of Goug.  An enemy unit was standing atop the wooden shack on the tile indicated in the attached picture.  One of my archers hit this unit with Hawk's Eye.  The attack was a critical hit. The unit was knocked off the shack and drifted off into the blue expanse.

I wonder if it is possible to knock units off this tile in vanilla FFT.


I've done it before while playing CCP2, and the attack used (it was on the Zirekile Falls map) has the same animation that Hawk's Eye does.

It's probably an emulator issue.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Shintroy

Mage Masher - 12 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 SP, No 2s No 2h
Bizen Boat - 14 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 MA or PA, Forced 2h, No 2s, No 2h

Really just want a MP Damage only weapon in 140. Give it the same high WP that Healing Staff got, but not have it extremely exploitable with Dual Wield, Kagesougi and Snipe.
Would be a great weapon for PA*WP abilities like Southern Cross
Some day my people will be free.

Reks

Quote from: Shintroy on December 27, 2015, 03:27:50 pm
Mage Masher - 12 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 SP, No 2s No 2h
Bizen Boat - 14 WP, MP Damage Only, +1 MA or PA, Forced 2h, No 2s, No 2h

Really just want a MP Damage only weapon in 140. Give it the same high WP that Healing Staff got, but not have it extremely exploitable with Dual Wield, Kagesougi and Snipe.
Would be a great weapon for PA*WP abilities like Southern Cross


You talked about this before

And I wonder: would the AI actually just Attack with it?

I can only imagine that they'd treat it like they do with Bizen Boat: that is, in the same function of Sinkhole, but only if it would succeed in causing the casting to fail.

And if that's the case, the only usable part of it would be it's WP, and that's a bit of a poor argument.

Might as well make Sinkhole do MP damage instead /s
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

silentkaster

Quote from: Reks on December 28, 2015, 01:12:14 am
You talked about this before

And I wonder: would the AI actually just Attack with it?

I can only imagine that they'd treat it like they do with Bizen Boat: that is, in the same function of Sinkhole, but only if it would succeed in causing the casting to fail.

And if that's the case, the only usable part of it would be it's WP, and that's a bit of a poor argument.

Might as well make Sinkhole do MP damage instead /s


Reks, it would probably be treated as a low priority thing the AI could do. For example, it would be unlikely to attack if it was, say, an item bot that had healing to do or even if it could cast Dia or Comet or something, it would probably do that over attacking with the weapon if it had the option. Then, it would likely only attack if the enemy unit was outfitted with "important enough" MP using abilities. We often see the AI use Bizen Boat when the enemy is charging, but there is on occasion the place where they will use Bizen Boat without being prompted by charging, like on a White Magic user or Scholar or something like that. However, it would be very unlikely to use it on, say, a Squire with Accumulate or a Thief with Quickening.

I think there is a patch I've seen floating around somewhere where there is an MP draining weapon and the AI has used it, but again, it uses it in the middle of charging or when it has nothing better to do.

That being said, I do think it would be nice to have one of the lesser weapons that don't get used much changed into an MP damage weapon. It could be really interesting when combined with Salty Rage or another Berserk item, and just adding a stat to it or a Strengthen: X would make it a viable weapon to use without a Berserk item.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

Like a 0 WP P Bag, an MP damaging weapon could be used to prevent the AI from using melee strikes.  Does the weapon have to be Bizen Boat, though?

Kurosabes

It doesn't have to. Bizen Boat can just proc Bizen Boat as suggested before. This means Mage Masher becomes the main candidate for pure MP damage. It makes more sense too, as it is available to more jobs.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

dw6561

I would be fine with mage masher being an MP damage weapon. Stat boosts would be okay, though it may overlap with orichalcum or katar. And if we want to use it with Southern Cross it may need to be considered that Air Knife already has 12 WP and can be boosted. If we gave the weapon an element as well it wouldn't be much of a problem but we probably don't want to go too far into it considering that MP damage is its main property.

Speaking of elements, I would like to see more absorb on weapons like Mace of Zeus currently does. Not sure if it's actually practical, but would be a fun addition in my opinion.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.