• Welcome to Final Fantasy Hacktics. Please login or sign up.
 
March 28, 2024, 07:22:38 pm

News:

Don't be hasty to start your own mod; all our FFT modding projects are greatly understaffed! Find out how you can help in the Recruitment section or our Discord!


☢ ☢ ☢ FFT Arena AI Tournament Season 1 ☢ ☢ ☢ (FINISHED!)

Started by Gaignun, May 01, 2012, 03:48:46 am

Gaignun

I'm going to be putting links to the videos in the OP so people who fall behind don't need to fish for them.  I find Youtube's playlist to be inconvenient when browsing through dozens of videos.

CT5Holy

Quote from: Dome
Having 2 stickied topics about the tournament is confusing me >_>


With that said, now I will add to the confusion by talking about the matches here! =P

Agree with fdc about Leif's low damage output.

I like how mucus is using Equip Armor. Dunno if it's a "good" or "bad" way to use it since I'm not a big fan of Equip X abilities, but those Scholars can take a few hits, have Reflect, and get healed up a bunch from Hi-Potion.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Pierce

Ignorance itself is a crime! - Miluda

mucus

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 02, 2012, 02:33:08 pm
With that said, now I will add to the confusion by talking about the matches here! =P

Agree with fdc about Leif's low damage output.

I like how mucus is using Equip Armor. Dunno if it's a "good" or "bad" way to use it since I'm not a big fan of Equip X abilities, but those Scholars can take a few hits, have Reflect, and get healed up a bunch from Hi-Potion.


thanks!  yeah those scholars are a little tanky, it's really cool to see how much punishment they can take.


CT5Holy

My predictions for Round of 16:

Gaignun vs Shade
mucus vs dacheat
Squidgy vs Angelus
Wiz vs DomieV
AeroGP vs Fanatic
iamBQB vs Barren
fdc vs CT5
Ryason55 vs Celdia
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Reks

Thanks for the faith, CT5. Nah, jk.... I know I'll likely lose. But hey, the fun is in not knowing
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

dacheat

Thanks for the vote of confidence CT5. :3

Hopefully it's right.

The Damned

(I kinda agree with Dome here, which is funny because I was going to joke at his expense about it.)

Thanks for the tallies of things, Fantactic1316 and Gaignun.

Anyone want to finish things off and do a tally of weapons used? I'm pretty sure Throwing Knife and some of the crappier ones won't show up at all even as one-ofs. *cough*BowGun*cough* [/asking too much]

Anyway, I find it hilarious that 36 Black Costumes is low. Hahaha...that's kinda bad, especially given at least two other things absorb Dark that don't totally suck now, though at least N-Kai Armlet could still use a boost since Confusion doesn't even exist in ARENA anymore.

Quote from: Shade on May 02, 2012, 10:26:23 amLooked at what not healing skills are most used... masamune 32. Steal heart at 17... god I hate that ability. Also what is up with holy these days, it seems everyone uses holy instead flare these days.


Besides what Fantactic1316 already said, it's also because, on the flip side, Black Magic still sucks or, rather, it's at least still outpaced by other things as it unfortunately always has been since vanilla. All it has over Summon Magic, which has revival that Black Magic lacks and gets past both Reflect and M-EV, is Frog, Death, Poison and Flare. Death and Poison suck and are obviated by far too many things to be worth counting, so only Flare and Frog really count. Ironically, due to Reflect Ring's upgrade to blocking Silence and boosting magick, despite both Flare and Holy being reflectable, it means that the decreased use of Magic Ring means that Holy element isn't absorbed any more. As such, when that Reflect eventually does go down, Holy is not going to be absorbed and it is better for interrupting things and being more difficult to interrupt itself even without Short Charge as well as being cheaper MP-wise.

It's not that Black Magick isn't usable. It's just that, besides Flare (arguable), literally the only things it has going is elemental-absorption, that the elemental Tier 4 that gets past Reflect and Frog, which is useful if Frogged.

Even then, though, elemental-absorption is pretty much restricted to Fire since Scholars better Ice and Lightning abilities to abuse and even then Wizards have to compete with the utter BS of the currently overpowered magic guns, which are 100% accurate and don't take MP. Furthermore, outside of Flare, Wizard's whole direct offense gets severely hampered by singular pieces of equipment due to White Robe and Venetian Shield. Even Frog has to compete with both a couple of instant-cures to Frog (Stigma Magic & Maiden's Kiss) and the much quicker, more accurate Esuna as well as (ab)useable equipment that already blocks Frog like the universally wearable Chantage.

On top of all that, Black Magic has to compete with every other Faith-based magic being more useful since all that Black Magic can do is ultimately cause damage--usually only to single target--if it can get past M-EV or try to Frog people; Poison and Death don't count less because of the dismissive argument that they "suck", but because they're both ultimately useless since all Black Magic does besides Frog people is damage. Why the hell would you bother with minimal damage over time--especially when other classes have 100% Poison abilities--and an iffy chance pf single-target instant-Death when you already do is direct damage capable of OHKOing and you already have to deal with Raise 2's "everything's 100% okie-dokey" bullshit?

...Sorry, that ended up being a rant that would be better-suited Abilities thread and that isn't something I feel FFMaster or even ARENA itself are necessarily to blame for. However, needless to say, it's really not surprising that Holy is a lot more popular than Flare, especially since Mages don't automatically absorb Holy now by virtue of Magic Ring being the only mage-accessible item to block Silence.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

formerdeathcorps

May 03, 2012, 01:51:14 am #49 Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:18:44 am by formerdeathcorps
You are right in saying that wizard as a main class is inferior to summoner (which is why I suggested innate immunities to silence and berserk) and that wizard as a skillset is fairly repetitive (while not as defensive as lancer or quirky/fast as geomancer).  This is why I suggested added status procs to Tier1 and UnFury attacks to Tier 2 (while still being blocked by M-EV/Shell).  You are right in saying that reflect ring's should be changed (to null berserk and not to usurp magic ring with null: silence).  You are right in saying that venetian shield and white robe halving an entire build is probably too defensive (drop halve: bolt because there's already enough anti-lightning gear.  I say that an entire build is being halved because Wizards always do more with flare than the faster elemental spells so it's folly to run elemental spells and flare on most wizards.  The only exception may be elemental boosted Bolt4 vs. Flare [which is another good reason to exclude bolt from these equips], but both are too slow.)

However, I wish to challenge your unstated implication that we should nerf everything else because much of your evidence doesn't really hold water.  Raise2 averages 80% now and if you tried running 100% Raise2, your units are all exposing themselves to faith based attacks.  Mages shouldn't be automatically absorbing holy for the same reason why people shouldn't automatically slap on projectile guard; unless you are going to use it constructively to strengthen your team's synergy, it's too specific a metagame counter to merit notice.  Also, Damned, because of the changes to how faith and reaction abilities work, many holy casters CAN and do 1HKO or 2HKO physical units as well.  Stop thinking of mages as only fighting other mages: black magic now does a reasonable amount (more than summoner and scholar) to 40 Faith.  Yeah, holy may do more for the same CT, but black mage has AoE; nobody should be using black magic just for flare because that necessitates short charge.  Look at the other options: Fire2/3's CT and AoE are comparable to summoner, but with more damage; elementally boosted bolt4 does enough damage to rival flare while not being reflectable while AoE bolt attacks can easily be used (see my Broken team) on a 4x absorption team which completely obviates the need for cure and greatly speeds up the offense; ice functions as a MP efficient option and as an anti-metagame weapon because of how many people are trying to absorb fire/dark.
As for the spell guns, Damned, they really are not as good as black magic when used for spells.  A competent black mage with a black robe does more damage (especially off faith rod) because such a black mage ALWAYS will use Tier 2 or 3 spell rather than using the Tier 1 spell at 60%.  The arguments about evasion and instant attacks are mostly spurious.  If you synchronized your team correctly, you shouldn't be getting mid-charged (nor should it be a serious issue) and nobody runs M-EV right now except on overall evasion teams or as an afterthought on the venetian shield/kaiser plate.  The spell guns are currently broken because of high WP, leading to Kagesougi spam, which is broken and will be addressed in the next update.  The solution is simple: force the guns to always proc the Tier 3 spells and lower the WP by 4-5.

Unrelated, but:
Quote
However, Stigma magic being back to AoE just bugs me because of the sheer amount of things it cures and the fact that it hits the Monk using it at instant speed and that it's basically 100% successful.

Not really a problem.  If we compare this to Esuna (which people always run at Good/Best compat), that too is 100%, but is at range.  It's a fair tradeoff for the speed of the monk ability.  Also, many white mages are strictly support and are more likely to use Esuna compared to a monk with stigma magic (who may also have a KO at hand).  Considering most good teams have their mages with some innate MP restoration abilities, MP costs aren't really an issue for priest.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Dome

Quote from: FFMaster in the other threadNo idea why there are 2 threads. Closing this one and unstickying. Go to the other thread.

<3

Anyway, fun matches so far. MOAR!

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

FFMaster

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢ CAUTION CAUTION ☢

mucus

Quote from: CT5Holy on May 02, 2012, 09:43:58 pm
My predictions for Round of 16:

Gaignun vs Shade
mucus vs dacheat
Squidgy vs Angelus
Wiz vs DomieV
AeroGP vs Fanatic
iamBQB vs Barren
fdc vs CT5
Ryason55 vs Celdia

dacheat could rally give me a run for my money.

dacheat

Quote from: mucus on May 03, 2012, 12:48:57 pm
dacheat could rally give me a run for my money.


If I can put you into sandbag mode early I think I can win. My Holy users like to pre-charge Holy onto downed units that are about to reraise so that might hurt your Mad Science spamming a bit. That's easier said then done though since your Scholars are so tanky.

Barren

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Dome

That Raise2 pwned my team pretty hard
Seems it's time to search for a better accessory...or buff undeads a bit? Maybe allow them to return to life from death after the counter gets to 0?
Anyway, GG :-)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Zareb

Quote from: Dome on May 03, 2012, 04:00:14 pm
That Raise2 pwned my team pretty hard
Seems it's time to search for a better accessory...or buff undeads a bit? Maybe allow them to return to life from death after the counter gets to 0?



I like your last suggestion.
Now your blood travels through the veins of our history
It bursts forth in boiling black clouds from the wrists of kings

Dome


"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

formerdeathcorps


Undead users need to have reflect and halve: fire or they risk instant death.  It's perfectly doable as a team concept, just you need immediate offense to flatten someone.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

The Damned

May 03, 2012, 06:49:26 pm #59 Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 11:17:21 pm by The Damned
(Another wasted day, another reply for me.)

Might as well do this before I clean out this sluggishly slow computer of mine, especially since re-doing Team Submissions can wait a bit longer before I just go on that week-long hiatus.

Quote from: Barren on May 03, 2012, 03:43:07 pm
FFT Arena Season One A.I. Tournament Match 5 FFMaster vs Dome

The rest of my matches thus far will come between tonight and tomorrow night


Good to know. Again, remember not to burn yourself out Barren. [/nag]

Thanks again.

What? A Cursed Ring team lost to a team with Raise 2? Let me put on my shocked face.

....

Heavy sarcasm aside, I basically agree with formerdeathcorps here. That or the Raise spells just need to become Holy element, though that would make people use Holy-blocking gear besides Cursed Ring even less.

Maybe a compromise and just have it so that Undead units are guaranteed to always get back up (eventually), just not necessarily at full HP like they can now? That seems a lot more fair--yes, I'm using that horrible word--than this 50/50 "hope they get up" thing that people using Cursed Ring have to deal with on top of all the other issues with willing putting units under permanent Undead for very little reward.

Anyway, as for the match itself, I'm honestly surprised that Dome was able to win one, though I guess it helped in the second round that the Time Mage never got anywhere near either Scholar. Also, I think the Geomancer didn't attack the Time Mage because he saw that Shadow Shade was going to kill her...before the Moogle hit at least. Silly AI.


I can only hope that my match doesn't end up boring everyone to death, especially when it's apparent that I'm going to get my ass kicked. I preemptively allow you to skip ahead, Barren.


Quote from: formerdeathcorps on May 03, 2012, 01:51:14 amYou are right in saying that wizard as a main class is inferior to summoner (which is why I suggested innate immunities to silence and berserk) and that wizard as a skillset is fairly repetitive (while not as defensive as lancer or quirky/fast as geomancer).  This is why I suggested added status procs to Tier1 and UnFury attacks to Tier 2 (while still being blocked by M-EV/Shell).  You are right in saying that reflect ring's should be changed (to null berserk and not to usurp magic ring with null: silence).  You are right in saying that venetian shield and white robe halving an entire build is probably too defensive (drop halve: bolt because there's already enough anti-lightning gear.  I say that an entire build is being halved because Wizards always do more with flare than the faster elemental spells so it's folly to run elemental spells and flare on most wizards.  The only exception may be elemental boosted Bolt4 vs. Flare [which is another good reason to exclude bolt from these equips], but both are too slow.)


Well it's good to know that we can at least still agree on some things, though (and as hypocritical as this may seem in the face of some of Embargo's generics) I don't think innate Silence and/or Berserk immunity is the way to go about it here. I agree with everything else though, even as untested as "UnFury" abilities are.

I'll use spoilers for everything else just because a) I don't want to clog up this thread and b) it actually separates things more easily.

Never said we should nerf, though I could see how you get that implication given how much I've kvetched about it. It's not like it's any secret that I hate the ability and it instantly restoring people to full health more reliably than pretty much any other revival save Phoenix Down and Raise. However, I've long accepted that it's not going to change any time soon, so yeah.

I only brought up it because it's literally the exact opposite of Death right down to being, you know, usable whereas Death isn't (for reasons more than just Raise 2). Why bother using something like Death when Raise 2 is going to always be around? Why bother when you can more reliably OHKO with other spells in the same skill set that get around Reflect and M-EV?

Seriously, Death just needs to die. That's all I'm getting at. Raise 2 being as predictably popular as it is just seems like that should be all the more apparent--like Ninjutsu needing to be evadable given its power & speed--and yet it's still around for some unfathomable reason. It's not like Raise 2 is going anywhere any time soon, even with the "risks" you're talking about.


Yes, mages and higher Faith units aren't the only units that have to worry about getting nuked by Holy. ...And?

All I was pointing out was that, due to Magic Ring no longer being the sole Silence-blocking equipment piece that mages could readily use, despite Reflect Ring's popularity, Holy has "ironically" become even more reliable since mages that want to block Silence don't automatically end up blocking/absorbing Holy and Wind elements as well. That's it. With Reflect Ring and Robe of Lords both blocking Silence now, it means that Holy (element) indirectly got a boost since it ends being absorbed far less regularly.

Let's face it. When it comes to the abundance Holy-blocking-or-absorbing gear, most physical units aren't going to be using that stuff. Even the universally usable Small Mantle isn't something that people ever really use just because M-EV (alone) tends not to mean crap against the popular forms of magic, Faith-based or otherwise. So, yeah, while physical units have to worry about being targets as well (which I never denied, much less mentioned), that was never issue because they almost never used any equipment that got in the way of Holy doing damage to begin. The sole regular exception were Paladins when Excalibur absorbed Holy; I suppose when/if magical guns gets nerfed, we might see Paladins starting to use wear Chameleon Robes alongside Excalibur for Grand Cross's sake, but otherwise...yeah, I don't exactly expect to see a huge rise in Crystal Shield use and the like.


I never said that Black Magic has no good points. If I didn't think it did, then I would have outright said it was useless, which it isn't; it's just still almost as out-classed as it has been since vanilla. Again, yes, Black Magic can do quite a bit of damage, but outside of Frog, that's all it can do.

Additionally, even for all its damage potential, it has to contend with M-EV and Reflect getting in the way of most of its spells when most other forms of popular magical damage either have to only contend with one (M-EV for Draw Out, Reflect for Holy, technically Yin-Yang Magic if unit has Dispel Magic) or neither (Summon Magic, half of Lore). Fat lot of good doing more damage is going to do you when you can't hit anything as reliably as another class that has more AoE than you and revival.


Admittedly, my mention of spell guns with regards to Black Magic was poorly written, especially when they're neither the key issue to Black Magic's main problems nor is Black Magic the key victim of their current overpoweredness with Kagesougi & Grand Cross. That said, even being on classes with piss-poor MA (at least innately), their existence when Black Magic is already as relatively weak as it is doesn't help; I think even given your reservations about my "spurious" implications and claims, we can agree there.

It's like if there was a gun that was made to act like a longbow that ended up being overpowered due to some reason that had nothing to do with longbows. Sure, it wouldn't exactly do much more damage to longbows' relative weakness and lack of use, but it certainly wouldn't help. Spell Guns are the same, especially since, even as much you're downplaying it, their instant speed and getting past Reflect & M-EV do count for something; even if they do a lot less damage reliably than a Wizard (with/forced to wear Strengthening gear), they still do damage more reliably than said Wizard. The lack of MP use with them is a lot less of an issue, but it means not having to worry about MP restoration or MP depletion, which is certainly an issue among pretty much all mages.

No comment on the "solution" to those at present.


Yes, synching speed is good and all that, but it still doesn't do anything to prevent the potential mid-charging you seem to be definitively saying that it would. Even before the popularity of Haste & Slow and the various other abilities that freeze CT or lower Speed, it's rather inevitable that if a match drags on long enough, a unit with higher speed will eventually start out pacing an 8 Speed Wizard. This doesn't even address lower speed units intentionally "built" to disrupt mages with things like Throw Stone or Sinkhole or Talk Skill or Yin-Yang Magic or whatever.

Even for people who can actually build teams like you or RavenofRagriz or Wiz or Barren or CT5Holy, things don't always go off without a hitch, especially with the AI involved.


I already addressed the Stigma Magic thing, so let's just say that we'll have to agree to disagree, if only because I doubt you'll be able to convince me why it deserves to still cancel Charm even if you managed to convince me that it deserves its AoE (which you haven't).

Omission EDIT: Stupid omissions finally fixed.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"