FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[AeroGP]

I always thought the real reason was that people were still wary of float canceling it, so unless the move offered some other useful novelty (Quake's low ct, high area of effect; kiku-ichimoji/earth slash's flat, easily scalable damage) people shied away from it. That's certainly the reason why I avoided such moves for quite a while - if I even picked kiku, it was simply because I needed the extra range!

[Dokurider]

That's what I said. I think it's unwarranted nowadays because Float has fallen on the wayside. Float movement is cheap enough to grab, but Time Magic pretty spendy. Diamond Helmet is fine until you die. Feather Boots are...Feather Boots. And the only skill that adds Float is locked up in Lore and is also low on usage despite adding Reraise and Regen as well.

[Gaignun]

Titan is a poor man's Cyclops.  It costs half as much JP and 10 fewer MP, but it doesn't add Blind and doesn't work on floating targets.  Its damage cannot be boosted with headgear and is easily halved by Thief Hats, too.  What will make matters worse is that Float may become more common once Time Mages receive buffs.

What the Earth element lacks is reliability.  I suggest that we make Titan ignore M-EV for that reason.  Considering that Float effectively grants 100% M-EV against it, having it ignore M-EV won't break the game.

[reinoe]

I know the discussion about Masamune has kinda fallen by the wayside with the more pressing matter of Magic Guns and Time Mage needing help but I had an idea.  What if Masamune were to remain the exact same but the JP requirement was upped to 400?  I was looking at the JP requirement for Regen and Haste.  Considering that Masamune is instant, 100%, is not restricted by faith, and often hits 2 units the JP might make it balanced.  Just something that popped into my head while I was reading earlier pages of this thread.

[Barren]

I don't know if 400 would be the best idea for masamune to cost, that is a little too high. I think 200 is fine considering that the AoE is nerfed. Plus its still useful as it is, just not OP like before, at least in my opinion

[Dokurider]

My last video has told me two things:

• Spell Edge is not proccing period


• Reraise spam is kind of a problem, because it's basically Phoenix Blade in a can without Slow.

Also, in addition to the existence of Javelin II, there is also Escutcheon as well. But at 24 P Ev/3 M Ev, it's not exactly ground breaking.

[Dokurider]

Two ideas I had the other day:

1. Half of MP simply doesn't reduce MP costs enough for it to be a worthwhile on most classes. Either they have enough MP for Half of MP to not be necessary or don't have enough MP for Half of MP to make a worthwhile difference. So what I'm proposing is that Half of MP instead set all MP costs to 5 MP. That way, even the most MP deprived classes can cast a few spells here and there. Now before you all pull Quickening out of your ass, that proposed MP cost wasn't going to curb it's abuse that much to even begin with. Adding a charge time would do much more good to stop it's abuse.

2. I doubt that Dash/Bullrush will ever be a good move, so why don't we make it a good Reaction? Counter Tackle will always use Dash in it's reaction, so whatever we do to Dash, we do to Counter Tackle, as evidenced by the fact Counter Tackle also damages the user...

So here are some ideas I had:
Add 50% Poison
Add 33% Stop
Add 25% Dead
Dash deals 33% damage in target HP
Dash deals 33% damage in *caster* HP

[AeroGP]

I doubt that Dash/Bullrush will ever be a good move...

Bullrush is a good move. It's Squire's answer to Monk's Repeating Fist, does more damage on average and even cancels haste. Counter Tackle is the problem, alone - it can only do, at best, half of what Counter can do no matter what we give it.

[The Damned]

(Ugh, I meant to comment on this last night finally, but then...oblivion.)

Yeah, I agree with AeroGP on this actually, especially since Bullrush currently isn't avoidable as it "should" be/is supposed to be. You could maybe make it so that Bullrush canceled Regen as well as Haste since Masamune has an obnoxiously high saturation at present, especially with there currently being nothing multi-target that fully counters it 100% of the time. That' is probably all Bullrush "needs" at this point, however, unless you also want to slightly lower the recoil to like a fifth of the damage; I'm ambivalent about that given how much damage Bullrush can do and how cheap its JP cost is. If anything, it's Counter Tackle that's the flawed one, not least because it activating only when you probably get hit makes it likelier that your own recoil will kill you (as happened hilariously in one of the videos I just recorded).

As for other things, I'll just rapid-fire off "solutions" or general commentary:


1. Kagesougi "ambivalence": I should have explained less poorly before I "left". By "ambivalence" I meant more that even some of those who did agree were kind of "sure, why not" rather than all for it despite Kagesougi's obvious level of overpowering damage and status; Hawk's Eye is much the same way, really. Additionally, Kagesougi losing Don't Act is the bare minimum of what I think should happen to it; I still think it's going to end up being overpowered if that's all it loses, but if losing Don't Act could barely get "unanimous" support, then I'm not going to bother trying to push for it to lose anything but Don't Act (and perhaps taking more MP) for now.


2. Javelin II as an available weapon: No. Unless someone can think of a useful design with that has less power than Dragon Whisker and doesn't obviate anything else, then I see no point of adding another spear presently. Between everything else FFMaster already has to do for 139 and the fact that spears are already all at least decent and half of them are getting "necessary" fixes/boosts already, there's really no point to increase Jump's already too-great power, especially when Lancer itself is getting at least one definite and significant buff.


3. Hidden Knife still needing a nerf: Well, besides its W-EV being reduced to 0%, which again was the least thing that I thought should happen, I have something else in mind: get rid of it adding +1 Speed. There's really no reason that the sole weapon to give the user what's effectively Concentrate also enables its user to automatically get more hits in even if you just equip one of it, much less two of it; "ironically", it losing +1 Speed would somewhat boost since then there would no more reason to put two Hidden Knives one use, effectively "wasting" the second one. There's no reason to reduce its WP considering that 8 WP is already kind of low, but it can definitely be weakened further without making it useless, especially since currently has the same paradoxical treatment that Quickening has to a lesser extent. (That said, I would be fine with it retaining it's current meager W-EV of 5% if it lost Speed instead. I only ever wanted the W-EV gone because I figured people wouldn't go for speed and because it cleared up FFMaster's ambiguous phrasing of "Transparent cancels evasion".)


4.Titan being Outpaced: Well, outside of Quake and Tornado being way too quick at present and Quake having the same AoE and barely less power than the twice-as-slow Titan that can't even be used for Earth-absorption, Titan has the problem of being "bland" as well. When considering that the majority of summons have a status in addition to their power and that half of the ones that don't are sure-hit, with Titan also having to "deal" with Float and Thief Hat, there's little surprise that it's "left behind". [/screw that book series] This especially when Silf is sure-hit and causes status (which I still think is fine) and is only 3 CT vs. 5 CT and when both Odin & Cyclops have statuses and are easier to power-up--this will remain as such even after Golden Hairpin loses +1 MA. So, yes, Titan could use something.

That said, I agree that giving it +1 Range wouldn't help that much, pretty much because of both Kikuichimo(n)ji & Earth Slash; no need to step on the toes of two other Earth elements since Titan already stepped on old Quake as much as current Quake stomps on it. So, the one of the "best" solutions at present seems like it would be to just allow Titan the chance to add a negative status (or two). At present, the best statuses to have it potentially add seems like it would be Slow or, sigh, Stop. Everything else would be too overpowering or permanent.

That or just taking Gaignun's suggestion to have it ignore M-EV, which should probably be fine.


5. Masamune: I still think it would be more than fine at 200 JP if it only added Haste at 100% (or if Regen & Poison went back to not lasting past death). However, given that Ninja's "explosion tag" is being made specifically to counter it, Dispel Magic might become AoE 1 and a couple of other things are being buffed to due to how obnoxious it is, leaving it alone for now it is probably the best thing (unfortunately).


6. Reraise Spam: As I've said a couple of times already, just make Reraise unable to target one's self if it's going to remain instant. Otherwise it drags out matches way too much, especially when most of the time it's delaying the inevitable. Being unable to target the self would also mean that Death Sentence would remain viable if it and Reraise finally cancel each other like they "should".


7. Half of MP becoming 5 MP All: Honestly, that seems really broken Dokurider, especially when considering that Robe of Lords has both Block: Silence and some of the most MP and when taking into account that Bizen Boat really should just take M-EV overall. I personally think in most instances, Half of MP is "fine". It could maybe stand to be slightly cheaper JP-wise, but that's it.


8. Making Counter Tackle viable: Since I agree with AeroGP that Counter Tackle is more the problem, "we" could just use the fact that Counter Tackle will always use what's in Dash's spot to our advantage and move Bullrush somewhere else before making Counter Tackle's spot a move that isn't otherwise actively available. For instance, "we" could follow Eternal's lead and change Counter Tackle into "Jinx", which would try to add status to the opponent. Of course, that is both potentially (far) too powerful, somewhat steps on Counter Flood's toes (even if it would be single-target) and something better suited to Thief. In the case of that last point, however, I wouldn't be against shuffling around Squire and Thief's RSMs somewhat, especially since Squire's already losing Defend. Squire getting Caution (back) could allow it to finally see some use.

[Eternal]

...why can't we just make Reraise a normal spell again? CT, Faith based with an MP cost.

[The Damned]

(Probably because it was 100% on Priest as a spell for the longest time and never saw any use.)

It also being on Paladin now means that any attempt to make it actually use MA would just end up making it sub-par, as was Dia's fate until quite recently.

That said, I'd be up for making it have a CT if self-targeting is kept. To me, either keeping it instant but having unable to self-target or forcing it to take CT again but allowing it to be self-targeting would be fair. I also wouldn't mind it having more of JP cost, but meh.

[Gaignun]

1. Kagesougi "ambivalence"

3. Hidden Knife still needing a nerf:

These issues are related.  Kagesougi is nasty when it's paired with Hidden Knife.  Without Hidden Knife, you can guard against Kagesougi with P-EV (in addition to status-resistant armour as you can now).  Are people still against removing "Always: Transparent" from Hidden Knife?  We do have Concentrate now, after all.

[The Damned]

(Indeed, Hidden Knife just exacerbates the problem with Kagesougi.)

I'm definitely not against "Always: Transparent" getting removed from Hidden Knife (and it consequently probably getting to keep Speed +1). However, I'm not sure if anyone else can say that. From what I remember when I asked the same thing like...almost year ago already or whatever, FFMaster and Raven were against it. Someone else might have also been against it. Everyone else might have been ambivalent, if only because I don't remember them saying anything.

Kagesougi definitely has other problems though, even if Hidden Knife only adds to them. (Not trying to put words in your mouth that you're saying Hidden Knife is the only reason "Kagesougi is nasty". I just want to be personally clear since your wording is somewhat ambiguous.)

****

Your appearance reminds me that I was going over maps while I was "away" these past couple of lists, particularly with regards to your "approved list". While for the most part I can agree with them and I've found the list to be quite helpful--thanks for that--when it comes to recording, I disagree with VALKYRIES being an acceptable map as I typo'd before I left--I meant to put "awesome name". As I said, it's arguably an even worse map than END or even NOGIAS, which is saying something. It basically has all of TIGER's problems with any of TIGER's possible fairness, especially since it would be easier to "even out" TIGER than it would to even out VALKYRIES.

Beyond that, I also felt there were about a dozen or "fair" maps you left out, though I can understand your hesitance on some of them. I'm not sure if I should talk about this now, bump said thread or just wait until later considering people keep raising points that hardly get to get discussed in here.

*still waiting on Mediator feedback besides everyone agreeing about splitting Refute*

[Gaignun]

Without Hidden Knife, I'd say Kagesougi is "very good," like Raise 2 or Haste 2.   

Go ahead and scratch Valkyries from my list of maps.  If memory serves me right, I threw that list together in one evening.  Valkyries is that long, twisty map with a height difference, right?

As for your Mediator suggestions, I say:

YES to splitting Refute
YES to adding Hush (if there's a skill slot to spare)
NO to lowering base HP
NO to raising C-EV

Were there any others?

[The Damned]

(Yeah, VALKYRIES is the twisty map where one team starts way at the top and the other team starts way at the bottom. Basically like END, only not circular and not remedied by having Fly or Teleport.)

Only other thing about Mediators, since I'm fine with them keeping Preach and Solution now that I know the AI is actually using them and even if Mediators currently have no innate access to a healing item, is replacing Persuade since the AI still isn't currently using it. I proposed "Stall", which is basically a 100 or 150 JP single-target Add Stop, as a replacement.

Well, that and maybe me being adamant that neither of the Refute "pieces" cancel Innocent or Faith in addition to no longer canceling Charging or Performing. I also wouldn't mind the positive status canceling "piece" not canceling Reflect or the negative status canceling piece not canceling all non-Dead statuses, but those aren't "big" issues presently.

****

Oh, and speaking of map stuff, while I disagreed with Dokurider that Bervenia Volcano should banned before the SCC tournament happened, the more I look at that map, the more I realize that its starting positions really need to be changed. The team that starts out "on" the lava tends to be at huge disadvantage versus the team that starts towards the back of the map. It would be a lot better if the teams just started across on the opposing shores from each other with the lava in-between them so no non-Geomancers potentially get automatically stranded or at least stuck behind an ally.

Other maps could be improved starting position-wise, but that's only map "allowed" that I regard thinking could be improved so substantially.

Oh, right. Also think the Windmill Shed map, where you fight Wiegraf outside, is pretty terrible considering the team that starts behind the windmill tends to be heavily disadvantaged. It and VALKYRIES were the only two "allowed" maps that I currently have problems with though. (I also thought that Araguay Woods was more a Large map than a Medium one though, which is probably what I'm going to use it as from now since there aren't enough [good] Large maps and I rather like that map anyway.)

[Dokurider]

Just because something isn't being used, doesn't mean there's something wrong with it. Exhibit A: Silver Bow. On casual inspection, Silver Bow's proc, Holy, is powerful, but can't be used fully by it's native class, while it's twin, Windslash Bow, is universally useful. But there are three aspects of Silver Bow that set it apart from Windslash Bow and in fact, make it superior in ways. It's proc, while Archers aren't renown for their MA, Holy has such a high Q value, it allows for good damage anyways. Easily an extra 100 damage. That would be true, if most non-Spell Gun Archers had high faith. So in practice, it probably deals much less than that and falls flat of Hurricane.

But the second and third, and most important reasons of all, are that it's is Holy Elemental and therefore boosted by Golden Hairpin.  First of all, Holy, out of all the elements in the game, is the frequently least blocked Element in the game. Even with the ever-omnipresence of the Holy spell, I can count the number of teams that have even fielded Holy protection, let alone ran it as their primary absorption element, Holy, on one hand. Outside of Magic Ring, Holy is unblocked. Right now, it's an non-Oil Elemental without any of the drawbacks. So unlike Windslash Bow, it doesn't have to worry about running into a team that completely absorbs it's elemental, because there's only one team that does just that!

Golden Hairpin give Silver Bow a boost in a way most other elements would die for. Taking up the Head Slot leaves every other slot, including the all important Accessory slot, open for customization. Contrast that to Windslash Bow, that has to take 108 Gems, lowering it's customization (which is why I think Strengthen: Wind should be an attribute  for Head Items). Golden Hairpin also allows the unit to field Kagesougi with an ease Archers don't usually have, thanks to Golden Hairpin's massive MP bonus, and allowing them to replace the otherwise incompatible Holy proc with Kagesougi's procs for pure profit.

Damage wise, Silver Kagesougi stills falls short of Ultima Kagesougi, but that's probably because Ultima Bow is a hair too strong, basically being a 5 ranged Chaos Sword when paired with it's partner in crime. Small wonder why no one uses Gastro Feeties. And even then, that Silver Bow users has nearly 80 MP, so paired with Move MP Up, you can Kage all match long, even under a Witch Hunt Storm. You can even attach Meiton on just because you fucking can. And best of all, if you really wanted to, just have some buddies in Chameleon Robes for absorb strategies.

The point is, the Silver Bow is being overlooked, and it's not going to take it anymore. An item's popularity can only tell so much about how an item really is. Low usage can be a symptom of many things. It can mean the item is simply too weak, or it can be a sign that it's perfectly fine, but just being overshadowed by stronger items and pushed out of it's niche, or it can just mean no one has seriously tried using it yet.

Expect it guys. Expect to fly away, now.

[Dokurider]

7. Half of MP becoming 5 MP All: Honestly, that seems really broken Dokurider, especially when considering that Robe of Lords has both Block: Silence and some of the most MP and when taking into account that Bizen Boat really should just take M-EV overall. I personally think in most instances, Half of MP is "fine". It could maybe stand to be slightly cheaper JP-wise, but that's it.

1. I've been meaning to say this for a while now, but giving Bizen Boat will do absolutely nothing to curb it's so called 'abuse' for the simple fact that the AI will use Bizen Boat to interrupt spells. While said caster is Charging. Meaning they can't evade. Making adding M-Ev completely and utter worthless.

2. First, I realized that the code for decreasing costs to 5 MP would be difficult to code, especially for those spells with less than 5 MP. Instead, I'll ask for MP costs to be quartered instead.

Anyone with Robe of Lords can spam whatever spell of choice outside of Flare indefinitely when paired with Move MP Up any other MP recovery method. There is really no advantage to having infinite MP or near infinite MP, even aside the fact that most matches don't last long enough to exhaust your average mage's MP. The real reason is that most mages don't want to give up having a shorter charge time or hitting harder. In fact, they'll want to do anything else with their support slot except use Half of MP.

The simple fact is that Half of MP is not a support of mages. Not for a type of unit that can easily get all the MP it could ever need. So I don't know what you're worried about. Besides, lowering it's cost will do nothing. It's already incredibly cheap as is. It could be free and it'll still be just as unused.

[Reks]

As seen in my latest match with SWA (thanks again, Barren!), an odd thing happened.

Hawk's Eye was used on a unit, which it did what it's supposed to do: Oil and Poision. However, when said unit used Nurse to heal itself, it didn't get Regen.

Don't think that's supposed to happen, entirely.

[TrueLight]

As seen in my latest match with SWA (thanks again, Barren!), an odd thing happened.

Hawk's Eye was used on a unit, which it did what it's supposed to do: Oil and Poision. However, when said unit used Nurse to heal itself, it didn't get Regen.

Don't think that's supposed to happen, entirely.

Actually, I think it was suppose to happen. I was playing FFT Vanilla today and one of my units with a P Bag got poisoned. I tried taking it away with Masamune/Regen, but the poison continued to remain. I used Stigma Magic and when the poison was removed, Regen was back. I guess Vanilla and Arena has the same mechanics in terms of initial/always.

[Reks]

Actually, I think it was suppose to happen. I was playing FFT Vanilla today and one of my units with a P Bag got poisoned. I tried taking it away with Masamune/Regen, but the poison continued to remain. I used Stigma Magic and when the poison was removed, Regen was back. I guess Vanilla and Arena has the same mechanics in terms of initial/always.

Huh, interesting. Possible counter to Masamune and Nurse spam? Won't stop the Haste on Masamune, but....

EDIT: And then I read this post from The Damned on Youtube, same match.

"As for the Paladin's Nurse not restoring Regen status after he was Poisoned, it was because he still *had* Regen status from Light Robe, which for some weird reason doesn't just "reactivate" & negate Poison the next turn. It's been that way since Vanilla, but it's easy to miss for several reasons."