Stat Growth Idea

[Zaen]

If you've paid any attention to the 1.3 forum lately, you'd have noticed the annoying Growths debate. This relates to that for FFT in general.

Now, while I was trying to make fun of the no-growth people, I thought of an idea that makes more sense.

Let's say you start the game with a character who has stats of something such as 39 HP, 19 MP, 7 PA, 4 MA, and 6 SP. Generics, on the other hand have 37 HP, 17 MP, 6 PA, 5 MA for Male, and 33 HP, 21 MP, 5 PA, and 6 MA for Female. I know this is usually accomplished through multipliers. The problem is, it's hard to make a character come into the game at Lvl1 to have those stats with 100 Growths in all areas, unless you change that with something like FFTastic. Also, even multipliers is how I plan on making this idea unique.

My idea is this. Generic units all start out with their base HP, MP, PA, MA, and SP values for Male and Female. Special characters have slight variations on those starting values, if they were to be level 1. They should have some physical differences, seeing as they are special, not a random generic.
On top of this, when a character changes class, they don't change their Stats. This means multipliers for all jobs are the same. So if they don't have different multipliers, then what makes them different? you say. They have growths according to their uses as a class. Let's say Knight is it's base Vanilla class with no Ruins. This is a class that is heavily close range combat, and doesn't use magic. As a result, it gets no MA growth, and very little(if any at all) MP growth, and it's Speed growth doesn't excel because it's weighed down with heavy armor. A Geomancer, on the other hand, uses it's magical abilities AND physical abilities. Since it can equip Axes, it must be pretty strong. It's PA grows at a nice rate, but it doesn't focus on it's close range, so it gets decent HP growth. Since it uses magic, it'll get a nice MA growth and pretty good MP growth, and it's SP growth won't be lowered. You can guess that a thief or Ninja will grow it's speed much faster, with less on it's PA and MA, while a Mage gets standard speed growth, and more MP/MA, less PA/HP depending on how active it is in using those stats.

Here's some examples for classes.
Time Mage: HP G 16/MP G 11/PA G 70/MA G 45/SP G 100
Ninja:         HP G 13/MP G  0/PA G 44/MA G 90/SP G 80
Samurai:     HP G 10/MP G 15/PA G 40/MA G 43/SP G 103
Wizard:       HP G 20/MP G 9/ PA G 80/MA G 37/SP G 100
Priest:        HP G 14/MP G 11/PA G 75/MA G 42/SP G 95
Lancer:      HP G   9/MP G  0/PA G 37/MA G   0/SP G 98
Mime:         How the hell should I know? What does a mime specialize in/not specialize in?

These are just some ideas.

The point of this is to not only make what jobs you pick strategic for abilities, but how you grow your character to be strategic as well. It doesn't make much sense that if I were to be relatively smart, and become a teacher, but decide to be a lumberjack and instantly get dumber because of what I do. Instead, my knowledge would grow faster, being a teacher, than as being a lumberjack, and conversely I'd get stronger being a lumberjack a ton of a lot faster than if I was a teacher.

I figure this would be a better place to bring up this idea than new projects, as I haven't even gotten started on this yet and have nothing to show.
Any criticism and other ideas would be appreciated(especially for the Mime), as I eventually want to do this as a project in the time to come. I might even decide to incorporate new jobs and stuff with this idea, and make something more of it than just a personal lolpatch thing.

tl;dr Summary: Make class changes not affect initial stats, but heavily impact stat growth through constant multipliers. Changing jobs shouldn't change a person's abilities, but using that class should change what they grow in and how fast. Suggestions appreciated. This will eventually be a serious project, but there's nothing to show as of yet.

[CT5Holy]

This is really unique and interesting idea. I like it.

For Mime, they'd have to be pretty good at everything, so good/great growths all around? Similar to 1.3/Vanilla's Mime growths.

[Vanya]

This is not unlike how FF3 did it. It is a very interesting system and definitely adds to the game play experience. It's also more realistic.

I agree with Mime having all around high growth rates because it really needs *something* to make it useful.

[SilvasRuin]

Very interesting.  It's the polar opposite to what I've been considering, but... I like the dynamics.  The real challenge with balancing it would be coming up with 19 or 20 different growths without any being too clearly superior to the others.  I suppose you could make similar jobs have equal growths, but I kind of like diversity a bit more than that.  Hm...  I'm pretty sure it would require a bit more care and planning in the setup than flat growths and diversified multipliers.  This might go good with some of my ideas, particularly the ones involving equipment mimicking Wild ARMs XF.

[Archael]

I'm not sure if this idea is supposed to appease the no-growth people, but I'm sure they would dislike this system even more, as it places even less importance on actual job stats and more on growths

[philsov]

A level one's stats is completely determined by their pre-raw stats (ie, no growths in play), which are easily modifiable in a hex editor (see Raz's topic).  You can reduce the random HP/MP variance among humans and the massive PA/MA swings on monsters as well -- not to mention make both males and females the same, stat-wise, if desired.  

However, specials aren't in some super individual classification -- they're ultimately in the pit with the rest of the generics.  

But it is a great idea and I might in fact steal it (with your permission of course, dunno if you're planning a hack or sometihng and if so I'll back off).  The biggest obstacle to balance is speed growth, imo, which can (should?) be normalized at the expense of the "speed" classes of archer/theif/ninja.

[Zaen]

Go ahead and use it. I've figured that the most I can do for the community is contribute my ideas. I hate no superior hacking skills to anyone, so I guess I'm just better with concepts.

It's in no way to appease the no-growth people, but it stemmed from me trying to make fun of them, but then realizing this was a great idea.

It's a shame that I can't do that for specials, but I guess that's where their class comes in handy, giving them decent stats all around. As for speed growth, I was thinking maybe a SLIGHT as in 1 or 2 points over 100/under 100 for some mages and the heavy armor classes. I figured Priests need to be fast, as they're like a magical medic of sorts. Time Mage also seems like it'd be slightly better in speed growth than most other classes. I could put up my first thoughts on stats in my free time tomorrow. I highly doubt they'll be anywhere near spectacular, as I put them together rather quickly for a test run of this idea with vanilla, maybe even vanilla enemies with more Jlvls, so they aren't complete pushovers.

Thanks for all the feedback!

[Skip Sandwich]

This is a good idea, but the way I see it, there are only 7 main stat growth patterns (not counting HP and MP separately, since HP tends to follow Physical focus, and MP Magical Focus)
----------------------------
Balanced Growth

Physical Focus
Magical Focus
Speed Focus

Physical/Speed Hybrid
Magical/Speed Hybrid
Physical/Magical Hybrid
----------------------------

Now, there is of course room for reasonable variance within these general growth patterns, but the problem is that some or most of these patterns will not be easily available to train in from level 1. I can only think of two solutions

1) is to let higher tier jobs obtain better overall growth rates then lower tier jobs
This solution works best when approached in the way that 1.3 job growths were chosen, the lower tier, highly focused jobs (in 1.3, the knight, wizard and thief) have superior growths in the stat they are focused in, but lower overall growths then the higher tier jobs (1.3 mime, which has 2nd class stats, but it's 2nd class in EVERYTHING). This both provides a benefit to those with the patience to grind spillover jp for level 1 mimes or what have you, while not penalizing the optimization of units belonging to players to lack that patience and mindset.

OR

2) flatten the job tree so that more growth patterns are available earlier
basically, simply arrange the job tree so that all growth patterns can be reached with a minimum of grinding, this will probably result in the least amount of difference between growth sets within job trees, but should actually appease the no-growth people, by granting access to all relevant growth patterns right at the start, zero grinding for better statsets involved

[Kourama]

This is sort of similar to the way they did it in the Wild Arms XF game. Generics all have different base individual stats when you recruit them but in that game jobs had different multipliers depending on what they excelled in but everyone's stat growths were exactly the same regardless of job.

[Kaijyuu]

I personally despise job specific growth since it discourages changing jobs and encourages using a single job from 1-99. If you don't change jobs, there's no point in a job system existing.


The way I'd do it (which is currently impossible in FFT) is make the jobs give their stat bonuses on job level up, and make these bonuses static regardless of current job. So, Knight level 4 might give +16 hp, which would be +16 regardless of what job the character currently is. That way, those that use jobs would gain bonuses accordingly (which would satisfy the "teacher shouldn't be stupid if turned into a lumberjack" thing), and job switching wouldn't be inhibited.
Stat growth on level up would be static regardless of job, be different for each special character (same for every generic, perhaps with some randomization), and would follow the job multipliers.

I'd probably remove spillover JP if I could do this, too.

[Skip Sandwich]

@Kaijyuu
well, with growth option #2 that I proposed, job growths would be more or less homogenized within each branch of the job tree (amount of homogeneity up to personal tastes), and the jobs themselves would be placed according to those growths so that for each pattern type, there are a handful of different jobs that all offer the same or very similar growth rates, with the precise intention of encouraging unit flexibility, while still offering a small reward for those that prefer to specialize their units (pure focus jobs would have 1st rate in the associated stat, but 4th class in the other two, hybrid jobs would have 2nd class stats in their stats, but 4th class in the third, and balanced jobs would have 3rd class stats in all three, to give a very rough example)

[Samuraiblackbelt]

the only way I could see this working well is if stats grew a lot faster than in Vanilla. If you leveled up as a knight from 1-99 you should have close to 50 PA, if you leveled as a geomancer maybe have ~30-40, if you leveled as a priest you would have ~20. By making the difference greater you're opening up the possibility of having more options for end stats for more classes. However, this would require use of completely different equations for abilities to balance it out again.


Or, you could make having 1 more PA/MA/SP than someone else worth a lot more than in Vanilla (kinda like CoP, lower stats to make high stats seem higher). But this seems like it would require different equations too.

[Zaen]

What I was thinking to make some classes more useful, and making it harder to level as strictly one job was something like this..

Let's say you have a Thief. It's a completely physical class. No MP/MA needed. Leveling as a thief will grant you 1 or 2 MP ever level or two, but give you a very nice speed bonus. You won't get very high PA, since it's not hard hitting, but you'll at least get more than all of the mage classes.

Now, let's say you have a.. Summoner. It's a completely magic class, PA is 100% useless, and it has strong MA/MP. HP growth is that so it gets near no HP on level up. Maybe 1 or 2 per level. PA growth could be around 140... so it's almost no change unless you spend 15-20 levels there.

There's also another way to go with this. Higher tier classes get superior growth in areas they thrive in, but then heavier penalties. The only problem I see with this is the Samurai. It could be seen as using most of the stats. It would probably be best off as a very high tier class with high PA and decent MA growth with very moderate HP growth and lower MP growth. Or Samurai could be changed. That's highly unlikely. Geomancer is another balanced class that presents a problem. It's pretty much good at everything, and under this system, it would be similar to a Mime.


What does this all mean? If you're going into a job, leveling from 1-99 is HIGHLY unadvised. You're going to severely lack in certain areas, and your unit will be useful for only a few roles. The growths I plan to use if ever making a hack out of this would make leveling 1-99 as a Ninja or a Samurai or a Priest horrible ideas, whether it be lack of HP, lack of MP, lack of Speed, or somewhat of a combination. Mime.. it could use some loving, but giving it good stats across the board is dangerous territory.

Of course, changing the job tree is a must, or at least highly recommended. So... I remember seeing a 3 prong job tree. That's probably a direction that this kind of change to the game would require.


Also... the gaining stats on Job level up seems like a horribly bad idea. Think of how easily that could be abused, unless classes gave negative stat growths in an area on a job level increase. It also means your characters will turn out to be nearly identical unless you completely diversify and never max out all of the job levels. Stat growth at least promotes tactics instead of grind job level 8 on everyone.


I'm gonna get a chart up with Pre-Alpha test growths. I'll be looking for a lot of critiques, so don't hold back and feel free to give suggestions.

[Kaijyuu]

@Skip Sandwich
Your idea does help, but the issue is still there: punishment for changing job (types).

I'm fine with specializing units. I'm not fine with the bonuses and/or penalties being permanent.

Also... the gaining stats on Job level up seems like a horribly bad idea. Think of how easily that could be abused, unless classes gave negative stat growths in an area on a job level increase.

I don't see how it's any more "abusable" than FFT's stat bonus system. The game can be balanced around it easily enough. Not like enemies wouldn't have the bonuses too. EDIT: I feel I should reiterate that this is entirely hypothetical. My system isn't possible in FFT so no whining about that, anyone who chooses to reply :P

t also means your characters will turn out to be nearly identical unless you completely diversify and never max out all of the job levels.

Who maxes out all the jobs in FFT? I did once, but it took forever.
No one in a normal game of FFT will specialize in everything unless they grind for it. If they wanna do that, let them. And if it's too easy to do so, make it more time consuming.

Stat growth at least promotes tactics instead of grind job level 8 on everyone.

Min/maxing = tactics? Working everything out in a spreadsheet before doing anything may be fun to some people, and I'm not saying it's not a valid game mechanic. However, I wouldn't consider it something to encourage in a game like this. If stat growth had a smaller effect in the game, then sure, I'd be fine with it.
Also: "Stat growth coming from job levels at least promotes tactics instead of grind 1-99 in one job." Silly statements are silly, and can be replied with silly statements.

The job system exists to promote versatility. If you can't level a knight/priest combo (or whatever) without being permanently punished for it, then we might as well go with Vandal Heart's system: you choose your growth path once and never change. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that's exactly what you guys are suggesting.

[philsov]

The job system exists to promote versatility. If you can't level a knight/priest combo (or whatever) without being permanently punished for it, then we might as well go with Vandal Heart's system: you choose your growth path once and never change. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that's exactly what you guys are suggesting.

My take from it is not nearly unflexible.  

If you want to level a knight/priest hybrid then you level as both a knight and priest and get the resulting stats of such.  

All Zaen's idea proposes is that growths matter much much more than their current status, and then we null the modifiers down.  Its very akin to the system seen in Tactics Ogre, for example.

[Samuraiblackbelt]

If you're going into a job, leveling from 1-99 is HIGHLY unadvised.

I was using leveling 1-99 as an example of how you would have to make the stats larger to make the differences more severe.

[Kaijyuu]

If you want to level a knight/priest hybrid then you level as both a knight and priest and get the resulting stats of such.

And if you then wanted to change?

Make a whole new character. Yay.

(as opposed to some lesser leveling up with the added bonus of additional versatility)



Not saying my system would be free of frustrations. If someone wanted to level, say, a thief, they'd level up all the thief-related classes first... then feel required to level up completely unrelated classes for minor stat boosts. I have no problem with that, but I can certainly see it being irritating to some.

[philsov]

change into what, exactly?  Its not like the whole job tree is frozen.  A knight/priest hybrid would have average all-around stats.

The punishment is the same as the reward -- a knight/priest hybrid (e.g.) will be a better unit than a traditional FFT knight with white magic secondary; as a vanilla knight he'll lack the MA and MP (if robeless) and as a vanilla priest with battle skill he'll have less HP and PA.  This allows for a myriad of customizations regarding stats, rather than have most (almost all) of your stats simply determined by your current class with little relevance, stat-wise, to your previous classes.

Edit:  also the issue of "setting down on the desired path from the start" can also be fixed by simply making knight/monk/priest/wizard available at job level 1, no?

[Zaen]

If you're going into a job, leveling from 1-99 is HIGHLY unadvised.

I was using leveling 1-99 as an example of how you would have to make the stats larger to make the differences more severe.

I know, I wasn't saying that in reply to you. But yeah, I see what you meant.

Anyways, here's what I've got so far.

NOTICE: I SCREWED UP GROWTH, PUT 0 INSTEAD OF 255


Edit: I forgot to say it's in the order HP, MP, SP, PA, MA
And with that, I forgot Mime. Mime goes 12, 12, 95, 46, 46.

The only problem I'm seeing is that I might need to change growths a little since there's no multipliers.

[Archael]

HEY GUYS