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1.4 Discussion (and Official Discussion Thread Suggestions Compilation)

Started by Andrew, April 12, 2016, 09:53:18 pm

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Andrew

April 12, 2016, 09:53:18 pm Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 04:59:25 pm by Andrew
The idea to create a separate discussion thread for 1.4 was thought-up by some regulars during CT5's latest stream.  I've rummaged through the balance discussion thread from page 78 onward (October 15th 2014 +) and compiled every relevant balance suggestion.
































































































































































































  • Modding version: PSX

Shintroy

April 12, 2016, 10:29:57 pm #1
Suggesting that we discuss changes in phases. One month we talk about balancing cabilities, another on equipment, or something like that. That way the thread's organized unlike the balance discussion thread.
Some day my people will be free.

dw6561

April 13, 2016, 01:39:18 am #2
I agree with Shintroy. That way there is a definite cut off for each thing and we don't suggest too much at once. I think once Andrew finishes combing the balance discussion thread for everything, we can all decide what we want to talk about first.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Shintroy

April 15, 2016, 10:31:41 pm #3
Can't wait to discuss.
Some day my people will be free.

Reks

April 15, 2016, 11:41:34 pm #4
Quote from: Andrew on April 12, 2016, 09:53:18 pmAll the things


Just to let you know, the spoilers with " in the title box don't open
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

dw6561

April 16, 2016, 09:05:29 pm #5
In order to start discussing deeper things sooner and to have a solid foundation to build upon, I suggest we get these things out of the way first:

Speed altering skills: Should they be removed? A lot of our proposed changes revolve around this going away. I am all for it, but if anyone is strictly against it, now is the time to speak up.

MP Regen/Poison: Should we add them? The reason we need to get this out of the way is that they will affect the balance of skills and equipment.


Fury/Sadness statuses- Not feasable for 1.4, especially since none of us can code ASM too well and there are no hacks that already exist of this that I know of.

Innate: Transparent- I "don't see" the need to change this. As mentioned on the most recent stream, it is already balanced since you need to sacrifice power in order to get unevadable magic.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Reks

April 16, 2016, 09:30:47 pm #6
And one more slightly different proposal: changing MP Restore to something a little more useful, but still on-hit.

So what about this

Cleanse: removes negative status when struck with one that doesn't shut down Reactions.

The biggest odds I'd put this at is 66%, and that's if it's even a flat rate. More likely I'd say a combination of Fury and Faith as part of the formula.

I don't see it as THAT powerful since the strong statuses are the ones that lock down reactions anyway, and it might give a team weaker to statuses a chancy possibility to recover from it.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Shintroy

April 16, 2016, 11:25:14 pm #7 Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 11:43:33 pm by Shintroy
Before this turns into another request thread after all of Andrews hard work, here's my discussion order suggestion.

Suggestions for major class changes
Getting class revamping out the way first will make the other topics go by smoother. An example of a past class change is mime getting abilities and equipment access. Stat changes, Samurai losing innate two hands, SP altering abilities, Lancers getting robes, Jump's CT being calculated by Jump instead of SP, and so on.
Suggesting we only spend two weeks on this Squire half one week (archer, paladin, ..dancer, samurai), and Chemist half another week (chemist, wizard, ... bard, scholar) since according to the change request thread there weren't many major class changes being suggested.

Game mechanic changes
Anything from introducing new status effects like MP Regen/Poison, and balancing already existing things like sleep duration, critical hit knockback, Transparency, and anything else related.

Job ability changes
A class's abilities, spells, reactions, support, and movement. Can discuss where new abilities like the caster reaction that allows you to evade while charging and what already existing abilities can be balanced and moved around. I recommend we spend a week on a pair of classes.
Squire/Chemist, Archer/Paladin, Monk/Thief, Priest/Wizard, Time/Oracle, Med/Summon, Geo/Lancer, Nin/Sam, Bard/Dancer, Scholar/Mime.
Recommending we start with Squire and Chemist then we can vote on what pair we do next. Even if a pair doesn't need balancing we still have to spend a week on it. As the weeks go by someone can post the pair's updated stat and ability changes and maybe Andrew can add to the reserved post

Equipment
We can do the same as the above and spend a week on each equipment slot. I do think weapons should be split up so we can actually discuss all of them.
Swords/K.Swords, Daggers/N.Swords, Katana/Axes, Rods/Staves, Flails/Bags/Books, Guns/Bows/Crossbows, Harp/Cloth, Spear/Poles, Headwear, Shields/Robes, Armor/Clothes, Accessories
---
Let me know what you guys think.

Part 1 -
Looking forward to SP stat balancing and SP altering abilties being reworked/removed, Samurai and Lancer changes, 9SP Mime?!
Part 2 -
I actually like Jot5's poison and regen giving MP. This will make Masamune (ability) and Light Robe fun to discuss. The duration of some status effects will also be great to discuss(innocent, sleep, faith, oil, etc)
Part 3 -
Will chemist finally get an anti charm item? Soft is a golden needle makes sense. Steal Heart Nerf! Tornado and Quake nerfs :). Geomancer damage calculation buff? Fire NOT adding oil? So much to talk about.
Ninjitsu's Tons can use a CT of 1

Part 4 -
Shield, Katana, Gun changes, Hidden Knife, Initial Innocent/Faith equipment, Always Reflect, 100% Add Innocent weapons, Poison immunity, updating joke equipment (ultima weapon), and adding new equipment (leather armor).

---------------
WKW's list of elemental damage sources wil be extremely helpful when it comes to equipment changes.
--------------------
Bug discussion can probably go first. I don't know of any outside of the death sentence bugs due to equipment only protecting from dead, but not death sentence.
Some day my people will be free.

dw6561

April 17, 2016, 05:18:40 pm #8
At this rate this thread might as well become a discussion about discussing how we want to discuss things. I was going to suggest talking about game mechanics changes first because that affects equipment and ability decisions, but if there are really not that many major class changes we can knock that out first I suppose.

I was also thinking that we could change things on the go and maybe someone (aka me unless anyone else knows how to actually hack) could post the updated FFTPatcher files and stuff. More work done now means less tedium later on, after all. I was combing through each of the abilities to find all the relevant skills for the current patch so we have an idea of what we are working with, and also a list of changed formulas.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

silentkaster

April 18, 2016, 11:54:01 am #9
On this page there is a proposal for 1.4 by Gaignun. Also, read a bit past to see some ideas missed in his first proposal. I'd say this is a good place to start.

If DW and/or WKW (or anyone) are going to be working on it, he/she/they need concise ideas that they can implement. Having a free form discussion or thread will just allow for a lot of input that we have a ton of input on already.

The reason I say having a proposal like this, and just going through and tweaking what he has, if it needs to be tweaked, gives them a nice convenient checklist. They go through, change something, check it off and move on to the next item. In my opinion, as those not working on the patch, let's make their jobs as easy as possible and give them support. I think a proposal would be best.

Also, bear in mind that whoever works on the project may decide to alter from the proposal themselves and that's okay. After all, it's their project essentially that they're taking over.

So, let's start at this proposal. Then, we can take anything we have questions on and answer the questions concisely and revise the proposal. That is what I propose. We also don't need to implement everything right away. We can have the new patch out for a while and then see what needs to be tweaked/nerfed/buffed based on matches.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

dw6561

April 18, 2016, 03:44:10 pm #10 Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 03:50:22 pm by dw6561
Quote from: silentkaster on April 18, 2016, 11:54:01 am
On this page there is a proposal for 1.4 by Gaignun. Also, read a bit past to see some ideas missed in his first proposal. I'd say this is a good place to start.

If DW and/or WKW (or anyone) are going to be working on it, he/she/they need concise ideas that they can implement. Having a free form discussion or thread will just allow for a lot of input that we have a ton of input on already.

The reason I say having a proposal like this, and just going through and tweaking what he has, if it needs to be tweaked, gives them a nice convenient checklist. They go through, change something, check it off and move on to the next item. In my opinion, as those not working on the patch, let's make their jobs as easy as possible and give them support. I think a proposal would be best.


This exactly. This is one of the reasons I went along with the idea of an organized discussion, because as of right now there are just so many ideas that we still only really know that "X needs to be changed" or "Y needs to be nerfed", but no definite answer for how. If we could agree on definite changes or narrow them down to 1-2 ideas for each thing in question, that would make things much easier.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Shintroy

April 18, 2016, 08:36:42 pm #11
Let's just get the balance discussion out the way before we start working on the actual patching. We won't get anywhere if this becomes another random discussion like the other one is. We really need to focus on a couple things a week so that everyone can get their opinion on everything across.
Some day my people will be free.

Barren

May 08, 2016, 07:06:45 am #12 Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 08:23:31 am by Barren
Here's a video I promised about Katanas for 1.39c. Hopefully everyone will be entertained by this

This video contains the damage output on katanas assuming 70 brave vs 70 brave target with neutral compat and without Attack UP

FFT Arena 1.39c Katanas
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Andrew

May 08, 2016, 03:41:28 pm #13 Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 03:49:22 pm by Andrew
Amusing stuff, Barren!  It's always more fun to see the numbers in-game rather than on a spreadsheet, or calculator, etc.  Makes a man wonder what the damage would've been like of those samurai were wearing MAX PA EQUIPMEEEEENNNNTTTTTTT!  BIG NUMBERS MUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH----- I'm a simple person.  :P  A lot of them are pretty underwhelming considering that they were being affected by innate Two Hands AND both their users and their foes had 70 Brave.  The katana ideas we came-up with during our Discord sessions makes me hopeful for 1.4 male samurai!
  • Modding version: PSX

Barren

May 08, 2016, 08:15:22 pm #14
Glad you enjoyed it man. Any other weapon you guys want me to do for the sake of entertainment I'll do
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Chemist

May 11, 2016, 03:51:14 pm #15
Hello all! I'm relatively new here. So maybe I can be wrong about some of this but I am a fan of giving versatility and options to a player instead of locking everyone into a meta or a winning formula. I like everything to have a purpose or be semi-viable. With that being said I'll get on with it  xD

Kuro(WKW), DW and myself were talking today about some ideas theory crafting back and forth and here were somethings we spoke on. (Forgive me if these have already been suggested)

1st.
We were talking about the Bags as a whole. So far every bag had an option or a way to be used except the C Bag.

One of the options we discussed was making it a 0 DMG item. This way the A.I. uses it as an alternative to get rid of charm/sleep. I followed up with that idea saying it is possible to give the item a +1Move/Jump like the Tactician Blade to give the item a bit more of a kit.

I personally see Bags as an immediate way to give a unit some utility when all other options are exhausted. Whether it be PA for monks, Speed for support classes that could use it or MA for casters, I thought giving any bag a movement/jump utility would be beneficial.

----
2nd

We all agreed Silk Robe could use a little bit of love since it's the only robe that is just kind of meh over all. We all also agreed that maybe giving the Silk robe (since it's wearable by every caster class) a Faith/Innocent immunity. Especially if Gokuu Rod is going to stay the same and Atheist is getting regulated, we thought this would be a great addition because of the lack of anti-innocent support.
----
3rd

I am a bit biased in this endeavor but I feel that the Lancer(dragoon) is just subpar. I even asked WKW what they do and he said they were pretty much Item Bots lol. I'd like to see them used more often and do what they should be doing... Jumping, and doing it without sacrificing so much JP. Because at the moment, even if you sacrifice every reaction/movement.support you still wouldn't be able to complete their job tree.

Of course, they don't need their entire job tree but even Chemists with an extensive list of abilities don't have to sacrifice everything just simply to use their skills. So after talking about it with WKW he offered the idea of making the Level/Vert Jump2's free or 0JP like the Archer's Jump+1. Which consequently would lower the JP of everything else.

I think that would give Lancer's the ability to be used again without such a hefty JP tax.

I also think that they should have ignore height innate.. but that's a different discussion for another time.
---
4th

Right now Paladins in a big way are sponges for damage. They walk forward and they get stomped on by spells, ranged and more often than not speed. Of course, Genji Armor, swift plate, Sprint shoes, etc. can give them the speed that they lack but it is still moot when they are immediately put into a Revival loop. (Of course I'm speaking from just a competitive standpoint)

So my personal suggestion was a small boost to some of the other armor options HP wise. Right now the max is 495 on a Male/Paladin with the highest armors. Let me be very clear, that does not need to change. I just feel if we have silk robes that have 115 HP. Then Gold/Diamond Armor should at least be 120+ minimum. They are heavy armors for a reason and if Paladins are going to be slow then they need more options defensively when they finally do get a chance to move.

I'd even go so far as to give armors a boost in EV because that is the entire point of armors. Not to just walk forward and get rained on by Hawk's eye, Status aliments and Draw Out. But to have protection, to be the tank that walks forward and ultimately, live.

Especially with haste being such a big factor in most teams I don't think that this would be a massive change. On that same coin, helmets could also receive a bit of love given the similar reasons as above.

----
5th

Both WKW and DW, would like to see the mythril helm removed IF the silk robe obtains faith/innocent immunity. They feel there are too many helmets and slimming the list down would be a good idea. Given that any class that can wear helmets can wear robes too.

I am against the idea because I feel that any class that wears helmets is wearing them for the HP and/or for a reason and not may not necessarily be a caster unit. I feel that an alternative should be found for the Mythril helm only because Mythril in terms of fantasy is such a commonplace item and having a mythril armor, mythril shield and mythril weapons seems a bit off without a mythril helmet.

I do not have a suggestion for an alternative for the mythril helm, but I don't think outright removing our options is the best idea.

____________

Thank you for reading/listening to what I have to say! I apologize for my inexperience about these things and if as I said before any of these have been mentioned. Thank you!
  • Modding version: PSX
Lijj is the best! If you don't know, now you know!
~Elite Romanda Gunner~

Shintroy

May 12, 2016, 09:52:38 am #16
C bag gave classes that didn't have access to +2 ma weapons a chance to boost ma. RIP caster ninjas, thieves, and archers ;;
Some day my people will be free.

Chemist

May 12, 2016, 12:21:06 pm #17
Quote from: Shintroy on May 12, 2016, 09:52:38 am
C bag gave classes that didn't have access to +2 ma weapons a chance to boost ma. RIP caster ninjas, thieves, and archers ;;


This is actually exactly what I said and thought, but apparently there are much better options now. Regardess I also thought that maybe a 5th bag could be added that just didn't replace the old ones and/or give the bags newer abilities to shine.
  • Modding version: PSX
Lijj is the best! If you don't know, now you know!
~Elite Romanda Gunner~

dw6561

May 13, 2016, 05:04:43 pm #18
Ok guys, I know I fell asleep during the accessory discussion but I don't know about the mantle changes. I kind of liked the null: element effect as it was pretty unique and there aren't many items that have this. I guess we do need more water and wind absorb items right now, nobody was really utilizing their effects that much, and if you wanted absorb without evasion to apply you could use clothes instead, but...they were unique. I'm slightly less worried about small mantle because earth can be canceled with float and holy might be canceled by the new helm. If we put their effects on other things, I might be sold, but what else would we put it on? Other than that, I think the changes look fine. Defense ring loosing wind absorb is great and so is magic ring loosing earth.

Also, have we been considering half: element too in our changes? There's no half: holy/dark yet, though if the helm that gives cancel holy/dark gets introduced I don't think we'll need it. Just another thing to keep in mind as we go through the list and fine-tune things, I suppose.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Kurosabes

May 14, 2016, 07:18:07 am #19
Right, it was just about the Small Mantle's Null:Earth since I've felt that Earth protection was going to become even more of a thing, with Feather Boots becoming useful because of +1 Jump which helps the 140 Jumpers. You could even throw Null: Earth on those boots to make them... complete. As for Null Holy... well, nobody uses Cursed Ring for its Null Holy so I don't think anyone would be turning in the mantle's direction to 'make up for it'... either just leave it there as noob bait (great with Defend!) or bring a brand new accessory to replace it, something that would fill the gap for the lack of Wind/Water absorb in the accessories. Not necessarily both, one can go to something else. My ideas for brand new items are generally terrible so I'll be leaving the imagination to someone else this time.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312
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