FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[The Damned]

(*yawns as he just wakes up* Damn it, I was supposed to be editing video....)

I'm not really going to both using quotations this time since it's only two people. I'll respond to the stuff that I'm relatively apathetic about first:


1. Cover Fire: Fine. I was gone for a while last year and when I left, Cover Fire was...stupid. I thought the same applied when I returned, though it seems like people are fine with the current change; it just needs to be properly reflected in the Master Guide like some other things do.


2. Innocent & Faith on an Accessory: Okay, that's fine. I was merely raising the question again since we talking about accessories and when I mentioned it months ago, a couple of people showed interest but it was never talked about. Even if those strategies are rare, I merely figured that blocking them needed to be more than just one item, but I already got that with the change to the Headband with the most HP, so....


3. Spears keeping +1 Sp: Very well. Just something else I was throwing out there.


4. Healing Staff boosting Holy: I'm...not sure why this is a problem since even with its needed nerf, Golden Hairpin is going to be boosting Holy. Also, Holy itself should probably be nerfed at least a bit in power and maybe speed as well if we're trying to make Flare more usable and White Magick is getting a bunch of other buffs already. Considering Healing Staff is probably mainly going to be used by Priest anyway....


5. Attack Time Mages: Well, yeah, it ends up depending on what we do with them, but I honestly still don't see how wasting one whole item space on something they can do equally well with another item in the same set (read: Gold Staff) is all that necessary. Unless by "attack", you're also counting magick. Even then, though, I still say C Bag is more than fine there if that's the case. If you're not building your spell-caster with HP and/or evasion, then you probably don't want them going in to physically attack anyway, even if the A.I. can still be a bit stupid about Bags (and, hell, any non-healing, non-distance weapon). I just don't see the point of wasting a space we could actually be using for so much more with even if, yeah, it's not "broken" or anything; it's just redundant as hell and has been ever since Rods were switched to go by MA.


6. Dual Phoenix Blade: What? If I had to guess, then teams with it are now only doing "the worst" because it's become apparent how busted Quickening is and how powerful currently is Cursed Ring and how utterly broken they are together. Given that basically obviates Phoenix Blade and is even more accesible...yeah. Sure, Phoenix Blade wasn't exactly explosive in use before the plague of Undeath descended upon ARENA, but that weapon doesn't suck by any means and basically any time Dual Phoenix Blade showed up, half of the watchers rolled their eyes as the enemy A.I. became even dumber than usual.

Like I said before, I've understood what the point of Immune: Critical was as soon as Raven said; I just didn't and don't agree. Even ignoring my distaste for the weapon, current Phoenix Blade already disadvantages the enemy enough since they tend to waste turns focusing on the "always going to get back up" unit anyway. Granted, Quickening is also part of this problem, but I'm just...weary giving one of the weapons with the most WP (by "necessity") the opportunity for free (back-)attacks; the A.I. is kinda blind to resurrection unless it's immediately about to happen, as I'm sure everyone has seen with Cursed Ring. At the very least, can we decrease Phoenix Blade's W-EV a bit if we're giving it Immune: Critical? This would a) help Parry Edge and b) make it (slightly) less annoying in general.


7. Crossbows getting +2 WP: I'm not really comfortable giving Bow Gun any more power, at least without its Armor Break ability already working to see how well it does. So let's wait on that one. The others one getting to 12 WP. Eh...maybe. I'm pretty apathetic actually. I just feel like them all being the same power just means that Silencer is going to continue not getting used, but increasing it even more above the others would start stepping on Gastraphetes, especially if Gastraphetes was changed to what Dokurider suggested. Also, giving Crossbows more power also makes me weary because of Hawk's Eye, as "mediocre" as all them save for Hunting Bow and maybe Gastraphetes are.


8. Bards losing Swords & other Harps getting 50%: I'd be fine with both of those things, especially since I find Draw Out still rather...annoying; not like I haven't been guilty of using Rune Blade though. I'd still think that Bloody Strings would need to decrease a bit in power to 10 or even just 11 WP though given the way absorb currently works. Of course, it's question of would everyone else be fine with it....


9. Hawk's Eye: I agree about the Oil part, but I obviously disagree about the Poison aspect, especially since I tend to use mages. Still, with Cure becoming instant at least, if Oil became less...extreme, the bows Dokurider talked about lost a bit of power and maybe Poison (& Regen) got their CT lessened somewhat, then Hawk's Eye would definitely be fine. As it is now though, even with 12 MP, it seem like it will be still kinda be too good even with Archers probably maintaining crap MP given all it can do.


10. Oil in general: I'd be up for changing Oil to that and I assume it's possible just because it's basically the same thing as a status that formerdeathcorps was apparently thinking about for his own patch. Of course, I'm not sure how much of a pain in the ass it would be to code correctly, especially since FFMaster was finding problems with his Oil coding lately and I still know jack about coding, so I'm not going to pretend like that's an easy solution even if it's probably a preferable one.

Still, it has to be asked: Would that mean that Oil would still be canceled on hit? Similarly, would that mean that Holy & Dark would still not be compatible with Oil (given that Demi 2 issue)?


11. Crystal Shield being Immune: [Something]: That would be good, maybe. But it's going to be difficult for people to agree on what it should block, much less if it should still have Neutral All Elements and much, much less what its new stats should be.


When it comes to Punch Art/Martial Arts, I've "realized" that Stigma Magic should probably cost 150 JP and Revive should probably cost 250 JP. Considering that Stigma Magic is back to being an AoE 1 instant Esuna, there's no way it should be as cheap as 100 JP, especially if Heal is 150 JP and that only hits one person. Similarly, Revive isn't anywhere full revive like Raise 2 and is vertically challenged, so I'm not sure why it costs 300 JP; even the AoE revive of Fairy doesn't cost that much. Changing both of them would still keep the trio of Stigma Magic, Chakra & Revive at 600 JP for people who want to buy all three as well.

(I thought about this when I suggesting that Misogi probably needs to be 100 JP, especially we're changing Monk anyway.... For the record, I wouldn't mind Heal's JP getting decreased even if it comes to cancel Oil, though I think it would be fair as it is so long as Stigma Magic cost the same.)


P.S. I'm still thinking about Heaven's Cloud, Dokurider.

[Ecthel]

What about changing Hawk Eye's damage formula, or keeping it but splitting off Oil + Poison into another skill? A big issue with it is that the unit is doing comparable damage to decent PA attacks, but also going more often (after the slower mages who benefit from oil, as well) and applying debuffs. Maybe one skill based on SP*WP and another, weaker one for the debuffs? If the status part got split off into its own spell Hawk's Eye could even get a damage increase.

[CT5Holy]

In previous versions of Arena, there used to be two skills doing exactly what you propose. The skills weren't that strong on their own. People definitely used the skill that added Oil and Poison, too, and it never did much. Oil also got buffed this latest version, since it affects six elements instead of just Fire. That said, I still don't think splitting Hawk's Eye back into those component skills is the right answer.

[The Damned]

(Yeah, splitting Hawk's Eye up or having it go back to doing no damage isn't the solution.)

A large part of the reason I want it to lose Poison is because Poison Bow otherwise isn't going to see any use still unless its WP gets boosted absurdly, which then screws over Gastraphetes unless that gets its WP boosted absurdly.

Additionally, I still promote replacing Wiznaibus with "Dirty Dance", which would still be a source of adding All or Nothing Poison & Oil (at 50%), just without the already above average damage and 100% hit-rate output.

I can understand that people might not agree with or might just have different opinions in general, but even if Oil somehow gets made less extreme, Hawk's Eye having Poison still seems...a bit much.

Problematic EDIT: On top of meaning "solution" instead of "problem", the syntax of the second non-parenthetical paragraph was really muddy. That's been cleared up.

[Gaignun]

Speaking of Oil, is there a way to make it so Oil makes you one 'tier' worse in terms of elemental resistance? So if a unit had Oil and Absorbed an element, that unit would now Null the element, and Null -> Half, Half -> Normal, Normal -> Weak? I agree with Gaignun that Oil overriding elemental weakness is problematic, but if this were possible, then elemental resistance would still be effective, but Oil also wouldn't be completely shafted.

No idea here, since I've never looked at FFT's code, but from my knowledge of programming, I'd say this is tricky.  It sounds like a bunch of conditionals will be required in the code (e.g. If "Null: Fire", then replace with "Half: Fire"; if "Half: Fire", then replace with "Normal: Fire", and so on.)

Two easier ways of fixing Oil could be:

• Simply have it add the "Weak" flag


• Reduce the elemental weakness modifier from 2x to 1.5x

The first option is the better of the two (in my opinion), but the second option should require nothing more than a change of constant in the code, so it is easier to implement.

[Dokurider]

P.S. I'm still thinking about Heaven's Cloud, Dokurider.

It's really as simple as deciding whether Draw Out deserves a Friendly AoE. With Asura no longer friendly, it and Kotetsu are the Absorption Draw Outs. It would be easy to give Friendly Fire to Heaven's Cloud. Leaving Heaven's Cloud as is would make it too similar to Asura at best, a losing proposition. It also goes against the implicit design of Draw Out, which was to make every Draw Out distinct, and no, it's 20% proc doesn't do enough to make it stand out.

I don't think their anything wrong with Friendly AoE in Draw Out, and Heaven's Cloud isn't doing anything important right now, so put them together and get a good skill. I think it should keep it's Slow proc, as I only suggested it to make it a better Absorption skill, but that's moot if it can be friendly now. It wouldn't be the end of the world if everyone felt it had to go, but I don't think it should.

I know you don't think very highly of Draw Out thanks to it's constant presence, but leaving Heaven's Cloud in the dust as some attempt to address a perceived skill set usage issue (which is more of a fault with Masamune/Murasame than anything) is just awful design philosophy.

No idea here, since I've never looked at FFT's code, but from my knowledge of programming, I'd say this is tricky.  It sounds like a bunch of conditionals will be required in the code (e.g. If "Null: Fire", then replace with "Half: Fire"; if "Half: Fire", then replace with "Normal: Fire", and so on.)

Two easier ways of fixing Oil could be:

• Simply have it add the "Weak" flag


• Reduce the elemental weakness modifier from 2x to 1.5x

The first option is the better of the two (in my opinion), but the second option should require nothing more than a change of constant in the code, so it is easier to implement.

Agreed, if it can't be done reasonable (or at all, which is highly unlikely, but it does sound like a lot of work), a Plan B would be needed, and I think Option 1 sounds best.

Bloody Strings

The reason why Bloody Strings are getting nerfed is because it just shouldn't be at the same WP as the other Harps because Drain multiplies its offensive advantage to simply being greater than either one of the harps, and even arguably Blood Sword. It gets even worse: when paired with Magic Song, its drain effect just outright runs away. I have no doubt that the other harps are good and have their uses, but the Bloody Strings is simply better because it has a much stronger effect. And yes it is actually used quite a bit, it's just been a while since we've seen an orthodox bard. They are probably still out there, they just aren't getting recorded. Maybe it doesn't need to be nerfed all the way to 8 WP, but it does need a WP decrease.

Increasing the Harp procs to 50% would make locking down entire teams way too easy. Don't forget this can be used in pairs. They are that low for a reason. Maybe they can go up to 33% to make them easier to for Bards to bank on.

Phoenix Blade

Immune: Critical isn't that important anymore thanks to the Berserk Items becoming Always. If you want your Phoenix Blader attacking upon Revival, just slap that on and try to make the audience's eyes roll out of their sockets.

11. Crystal Shield being Immune: [Something]: That would be good, maybe. But it's going to be difficult for people to agree on what it should block, much less if it should still have Neutral All Elements and much, much less what its new stats should be.

Petrify + Frog immunity? Feel free to add Stop and/or Sleep immunity.

Let us not forget about CT5's idea of a reflect shield, which I'm hesitant to support because I don't know how increased Reflect access will effect the game, for good or worse (leaning toward worse here).

Bards losing Swords

MA Stacking on Bards will not end with the loss of Swords. They'll just promptly switch to C Bags and tough out the loss of a good melee. I will say this though, Bards and Dancers don't have to be perfectly symmetrical. I know it triggers your collective OCDs, but try to get over it and really take a look at what both classes actually need. That's all I'll elaborate about the subject for now.

Holy Spear

Yeah Lancers have terrible MA, but then again, only White Staff can get into the hands of a unit with decent MA and it procs Dia. They are supposed to be a way of boosting damage output without boosting WP or adding +stats, which can be very unbalancing. Holy Spear procs Holy Breath 50% of the time and I don't see Cyclops warranting a lower output, so it actually will increase the weapons' output.

Bow Guns

Speaking of Bow Gun, thank god it's proc didn't work this version, because mark my words, it would have been the most powerful gun of all. It's basically Mighty Sword: The Crossbow. Shieldrender, while losing your shield sucks, isn't absolutely essential to a unit's function most of the time. Hell, many units don't even carry shield, that just means they get double hammered by a Double Handed sword. Meanwhile Bow Gun not only does exactly that, but it's low damage gets a relative boost thanks to the usually significant loss of HP, so those double shots are more significant. It just needs to go back to the drawing board.

Giraffe Gun

As for Gastro Feeties, whatever proc rate Kagesougi has, it should have that too; it should be as close as possible to being Kagesougi.

[The Damned]

(So, I've thought about, fallen asleep like the indolent bastard I am and thought about it some more. Need more time to think about the Shield though.)

Again, no quotations because I'm lazy:


1. Asura, Heaven's Cloud and, I guess, Koutetsu: Having thought about it, I think I've reached a "solution" or at least an opinion: Asura remains enemy-only since Fire already has the most AoE to absorb & Koutetsu is already also absorbed by Black Costume still; I really don't remember people agreeing that Asura should no longer be enemy-only. Meanwhile, Koutetsu remains able to hit allies alike since its huge-ass AoE and being instant necessitates having to take Dark element affinity into account on the team or accidentally killing teammates (like with Chirijiraden). As for Heaven's Cloud, I guess I'm now of the opinion it should lose Slow as well and instead become the only offensive Draw Out that ignores M-EV (and thus all evasion); this even if it has to lose some power.

That seems preferably to making Fire absorb more powerful and Wind absorb even weaker because without Heaven's Cloud, even as much as it is currently underwhelming, the only AoE ability Wind is left without side of [Whatever] Cross is Tornado. I'd rather not have Wind absorb start to creep into oblivion and become like Water absorb before my nagging caused Water to get some Black Magick. There's unfortunately no room for Aero either on any class, so....


2. Oil: Of the two easier solutions, I'd presently rather go with the first, if only because the second solution is hampered by some problems that I've noticed with FFMaster's hack and I'm sure he's probably noticed. The main problem is that elemental weapon strikes are enhanced but don't cause Oil to go away unless, of course, they kill the unit since we've made it so that Dead cancels Oil.


3. Harps: The other harps are already 33%, which is that's part of the problem. I agree that 50% is probably too much, but I honestly have no idea what else to do if people don't want to decrease Bloody Strings even only to 10 WP, much less 9 or even 8 WP. Increasing the WP of the other Harps just seems like it would cause more problems than it solves, especially since Harps currently by pure MA now, unlike Books/Tomes with their (still) mixed stats. So...yeah. It seems like all the only changes include Bloody String taking some necessary hit in power (and Magic Song going back to 50%), but if people don't even want to do that....


4. Phoenix Blade and Always: Berserk: I agree, though I am of course admittedly against Phoenix Blade getting Critical. But...yeah, if Salty Rage and Genji Helmet become Always: Berserk, then there's really no excuse for Phoenix Blade to get Immune: Critical with Move-HP Up already existing and Regen still lasting such long time past death.


5. Bards Losing Swords: Yeah, they can still use C Bag...which I'm fine with. Like my "campaign" against Wizard Staff, I think a class no being able to its cake and eat it too (without any sacrifice) is what we should be. Taking a hit to its normal attack power if it's increasing MA from the get-go seems more than fair and I honestly can't think of any other swords I've seen a Bard use outside of my own Bard trying to use Ice Brand once or twice.


6. Holy Spear getting Cyclops: I'd be off for it even with Lancer's crap MA. I just want to know what FFMaster's solution was/is considering he didn't say anything the last time he was on the forum months ago even though I directly asked him.


7. Bow Gun: Yeah, it doesn't need more power at all. Still, there's a masochistic part of me that wants me to see it stay around with a working proc for at least a sub-version or two, especially given how difficult it was to convince people something as obviously broken as Quickening needed to go. It doesn't help that I can't think of what to do with regards to replacing it, given the Extra Attack Bow Gun never got used and Crossbows as a whole already have problems.


8. Giraffes Are Cool: Yeah, your suggestion for Gastraphetes seems to make the most sense.


*waits for people to comment on his comment about Heal, Stigma Magic & Revive*

[Dokurider]

Asura remains enemy-only since Fire already has the most AoE to absorb & Koutetsu is already also absorbed by Black Costume still; I really don't remember people agreeing that Asura should no longer be enemy-only.

Other than the Fire spells on Black Magic, there are no more Fire AoE spells. There aren't even Fire Weapons currently in the game aside from Asura and Fire Rod (oh and Blaze Gun). I suppose no one outright said they agreed to Asura, but it was in Gaignun's changes and nobody said anything about it, so I assume Silence = Quiet Yes.

As for Heaven's Cloud, I guess I'm now of the opinion it should lose Slow as well and instead become the only offensive Draw Out that ignores M-EV (and thus all evasion); this even if it has to lose some power.

That's also a decent suggestion.

That seems preferably to making Fire absorb more powerful and Wind absorb even weaker because without Heaven's Cloud, even as much as it is currently underwhelming, the only AoE ability Wind is left without side of [Whatever] Cross is Tornado. I'd rather not have Wind absorb start to creep into oblivion and become like Water absorb before my nagging caused Water to get some Black Magick. There's unfortunately no room for Aero either on any class, so....

Perhaps we can take Wind in a different direction other than setting up more absorb strategies? Maybe instead it can be more like Holy, an offensive element that can be absorbed, but otherwise doesn't really need to be. More independent if you will.

5. Bards Losing Swords: Yeah, they can still use C Bag...which I'm fine with. Like my "campaign" against Wizard Staff, I think a class no being able to its cake and eat it too (without any sacrifice) is what we should be. Taking a hit to its normal attack power if it's increasing MA from the get-go seems more than fair and I honestly can't think of any other swords I've seen a Bard use outside of my own Bard trying to use Ice Brand once or twice.

Having to take C-Bag will cause melee damage to drop from from 60 damage to 30 max damage on 40 Caster Fury (before target fury), which is a drop in the bucket. It's not really any kind of drawback for that kind of unit. All it does is cut down on potential Bard strategies. That being said, Bards don't seem to be all that capable of using swords in the first place. So if they were replaced by a weapon group with better synergy with Bards...

7. Bow Gun: Yeah, it doesn't need more power at all. Still, there's a masochistic part of me that wants me to see it stay around with a working proc for at least a sub-version or two, especially given how difficult it was to convince people something as obviously broken as Quickening needed to go. It doesn't help that I can't think of what to do with regards to replacing it, given the Extra Attack Bow Gun never got used and Crossbows as a whole already have problems.

If they are going to stick around with the same property, at least have the decency to make it Head Break instead of Armor Break.

*waits for people to comment on his comment about Heal, Stigma Magic & Revive*

Sounds reasonable enough. I can't think of any reason to oppose this.

[reinoe]

*waits for people to comment on his comment about Heal, Stigma Magic & Revive*

If anything happens with regards to Monks, I'd say that Chakra and Stigma Magic--which is basically instant, multi-target Esuna for free repeatably for a third of the JP--need to become single-target.

I disagree with this.  Physical units should get access to at least one multi-unit, multi-status recover ability.  As for "Heal" It can take a page from Wish and have a range of 3. 

However I'd like both Heal and stigma magic to stop getting rid of Charm.  Charm as an ability is quickly becoming obsolete.  Speaking of charm, Beguile's hit rate needs to be increased by 5-10%.  The spell costs too much mp, and it's too slow for how inaccurate it is.

[The Damned]

(Uh...that's not the Stigma Magic thing I was talking. In fact, that quote is like ancient considering I know it's from before I left more than a year ago.

I was talking about the JP adjustment at the bottom of my post that's at the top of the page.)

That said, people aren't going to go for that type of nerf to Heal or Stigma Magic. Trust me, I asked a while ago--longer ago than even what you quoted--and the above was the compromise to that. Of course, at the time, I had wanted it to be Esuna, rather than Heal, that got said nerf since Basic Skill had even more troubles around the time.

I think people would be fine with Beguile becoming slightly more accurate, but I've been (horribly) wrong before. I also wouldn't be against Heal getting some range like Wish even on top of the Oil curing buff and even though I don't think it's nearly as bad as Wish currently is.

With that addressed:


1. Asura and Fire type: I meant more that Fire element actually has an AoE variety of absorb-able abilities already as it is, even if it's all the same set. This is unlike Wind absorb, which has only Tornado right now since we both agree Heaven's Cloud is meh at best.

Anyway, I guess I'd be fine with Asura becoming non-enemy only if people want more variety, I just don't remember it ever coming up in the first place. Also, for me, it's rather dependent on what happens with Heaven's Cloud, which is still up in the air obviously. (Possible pun not intended.)


2. Heaven's Cloud and Wind element: What did you have in mind? Because as much as I don't see the need to change Monk's elements around at the present, I'm also not that against Gaignun's idea to make Earth as a whole the "unavoidable" element since I think that's something he and I have talked about for. (That or it was Pride. I can't remember. Sorry.)

Similarly, my Heaven Cloud's suggestion is...half-assed at best, so...yeah. I'd be totally for switch Asura and Heaven's Cloud...if Wind got some other AoE to absorb or some clear direction because right now, just like in my own patches, it's kinda of the element "out":

- Fire has AoE in ARENA.
- Ice has lower MP cost in ARENA.
- Lightning has higher damage in AoE in ARENA.
- Water ignores Reflect in ARENA.
- Holy does the highest damage, but tends to single-target in ARENA.
- Dark has percentage based attacks and Death in ARENA.


Wind and Earth don't really have anything, though unavoidable at least makes sense for Earth considering there's Float to counter. Additionally, given that absorb-able Wind is going to be missing something if Heaven Cloud's become enemy-only and isn't getting anything foreseeably back AoE-wise...yeah.

What do you have in mind? I have absolutely nothing currently since I think in the last notes of my patch, Wind just ended up becoming the quickest element because there was nothing else. (That or it went through Reflect, which Water already does in ARENA.)


3. Sword-less Bards: True, but the lessening in damage is still something since you know how the AI will idiotically attack at times even if it has absolutely no incentive and a crap weapon, i.e. a Bag, & Fury. I also don't think that Bards are *that* terrible at using Swords. It's just there's little incentive to use anything PA on them when a) Draw Out is as strong as it is, b) Magic Song is powerful as it is and got buffed in accuracy for no reason and c) they have automatic access to Magic Song.

Again, I currently have no solutions.


4. Bow Gun with Head Break: Probably. Still, like I said, I'm masochistic enough to want to see if it goes should breaks actually be able to work as weapon procs at all.

[Gaignun]

Black Magick's tier 1 and 2 spells have the same problem as White Magick's tier 2 and 3 Cure: The lower tier with Magic Attack UP is superior in every way to the upper tier with Short Charge (, doubly so since Magic Attack UP is native to the Wizard skill set).  Either the lower tier needs a nerf or the upper tier needs a buff.  With respect to MATK-UP tier 1 and Short-Charge tier 2:

• Reducing tier 1's multiplier by one makes it about 20~30 damage weaker than tier 2.


• Increasing tier 2's multiplier by one makes its damage roughly equal to that of tier 1.

Obviously, the first option is a blow to Wizards, which might not be called for.  We could drop tier 2's CT to 4 instead, but I'm hesitant about doing that.

As for Heaven's Cloud, having it ignore M-EV sounds really broken.  It'd be the only 0-CT AoE skill outside of Geomancy that hits at 100%, and it is a lot harder to boost Geomancy's damage.  Surely there's something else we can do with Heaven's Cloud.

Edit: I've been trying to balance staff damage using the next version of the team design tool.  Achieving balance with sword damage is most appropriate in my mind.  Here's what we have using 1.39 numbers:

2x Platinum Swords
Paladin: 13 PA, 8 SP, 420 HP, (122~171) x 2 damage
Thief: 14 PA, 10 SP, 294 HP, (132~185) x 2 damage
Squire: 15 PA, 8 SP, 315 HP, (141~198) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (8 WP) (current)
Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (119~167) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (9 WP)
Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (134~188) x 2 damage

For fair competition, I propose that Wizard Staff's WP is increased to 9.  To keep things rounded out, I also propose that Rainbow Staff's WP is increased to 11.  That way one Wizard Staff can be freely traded with Rainbow Staff for 2 fewer MA and Oil resistance with no damage penalty.  White Staff's WP should also be increased to 8 to keep pace.

With these changes, staves should be just as attractive as swords for melee.

[reinoe]

Edit: I've been trying to balance staff damage using the next version of the team design tool.  Achieving balance with sword damage is most appropriate in my mind.  Here's what we have using 1.39 numbers:

2x Platinum Swords
Paladin: 13 PA, 8 SP, 420 HP, (122~171) x 2 damage
Thief: 14 PA, 10 SP, 294 HP, (132~185) x 2 damage
Squire: 15 PA, 8 SP, 315 HP, (141~198) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (8 WP) (current)

Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (119~167) x 2 damage

2x Wizard Staves (9 WP)
Oracle: 19 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, (134~188) x 2 damage

For fair competition, I propose that Wizard Staff's WP is increased to 9.  To keep things rounded out, I also propose that Rainbow Staff's WP is increased to 11.  That way one Wizard Staff can be freely traded with Rainbow Staff for 2 fewer MA and Oil resistance with no damage penalty.  White Staff's WP should also be increased to 8 to keep pace.

With these changes, staves should be just as attractive as swords for melee.

Gaignun, just to follow along with your example I inserted the Oracle into the current design tool to replicate your results.

Right Hand=Wizard Staff
Left Hand=Wizard Staff
Head=Holy Miter
Body=Wizard Outfit
Accessory=Reflect Ring

I had to pimp out Oracle with every MA stacking gear just to get her (and I had to use a female) at 19 MA.  Wheras Paladins, Thieves, and Squires didn't have to utilize every equip slot to obtain 13, 14, or 15 PA.  Doesn't this suggest that for Melee mages to be able to do equivalent damage they actually need Staves to have even higher Power than what you suggest?

[Gaignun]

Are you sure?  The Paladin, Thief, and Squire are nearly maximized, too (Barbuta/Twist Headband, Carabini Mail/Power Sleeve, and a +1 PA accessory).  I wouldn't want to boost staff WP any further at any rate, since MA can be effectively applied to support secondaries such as White Magick and Draw Out, whereas PA cannot.  That's the benefit of using a slow, squishy mage as a melee unit, I suppose.

Edit: I've also been calculating rod damage.  Fire, Ice, and Thunder Rods are pretty scary.

2x Fire Rod (with Fire 2 buff)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (155~218) damage [381~534 total damage]

2x Fire Rod (current)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (141~198) damage [367~514 total damage]

Ice and Thunder Rods are progressively weaker, respectively.

These are easily the most damaging dual-wieldable weapons in the game, even now in 1.38d.  With 70 Brave and Faith, the oracle is highly susceptible to attacks that ignore evasion (e.g. guns, 1.39 Titan, etc.), but still!  One way to prevent this damage is to forbid these rods from being dual-wielded.  They'll still be viable as two-handable weapons, but the average spell proc rate will drop by 0.5, thereby reducing the average total damage by 80~110.

On a related note, the Ice and Thunder Rods need their WP boosted by 1 to be comparable to Fire Rod.

Finally:

I'm not sure how everyone feels about my proposal about dropping Ultimus Bow down a WP, perhaps hesitance?

Lowering Mythril Bow's and Ultimus Bow's WP by 1 is a good idea.  Kibaku Fuda is appearing to be pretty broken with its Dmg_B(SP*WP) formula. (e.g. A 14 SP archer deals around 190~260 damage using Kibaku Fuda with a Mythril Bow and Attack UP.  That is too high for what is supposed to be a debuffing skill.)  However, lowering Mythril Bow's WP by 1 only reduces Kibaku Fuda's damage by around 10 points.  For this reason, we probably need to settle on a new formula.  Is it possible to incorporate WP in the Geomancy formula [e.g. SP*(WP+Y)/2]?

[Barren]

If Poison and regen stick around even after death why not have also have blind and silence stick  around too, it would give a necessary buff imo for those statuses, especially if you're using night killer, nameless dance, bizen boat (katana), etc.

I'm fine with what ever else as long as its fairly balanced

[reinoe]

If giving Crystal shield "Immune:oil" isn't enough to make it worthwhile what about this...

"Immune:oil"
"initial:Reflect"

The problem then is that it would give Paladins and Lancers access to two Reflect abilities.

[TrueLight]

If Poison and regen stick around even after death why not have also have blind and silence stick  around too, it would give a necessary buff imo for those statuses, especially if you're using night killer, nameless dance, bizen boat (katana), etc.

I'm fine with what ever else as long as its fairly balanced

I have to disagree with this. The problem is that Blind and Silence are too much off a crippling status (imo). You can get by with Poison, but Blind and Silence can make a unit useless unless they can cure it quickly or have the status protection.

If giving Crystal shield "Immune:oil" isn't enough to make it worthwhile what about this...

"Immune:oil"
"initial:Reflect"

The problem then is that it would give Paladins and Lancers access to two Reflect abilities.

Reflect Ring and Reflect Mail already give Reflect, so I don't think we need another item that gives Reflect. Although, it does make sense since it is a "Crystal" shield. Hmm...

Since Quickening is "dieing", can we give its animation to Focus, or is there already something planned for it?

[Dokurider]

If giving Crystal shield "Immune:oil" isn't enough to make it worthwhile what about this...

"Immune:oil"
"initial:Reflect"

The problem then is that it would give Paladins and Lancers access to two Reflect abilities.

Actually, the real problem is that'll give Unarmored units Reflect Options, like say Cursed Ring units for Raise-Proofing. Even aside from that, that much Reflect can be a problem.

Edit: I've also been calculating rod damage.  Fire, Ice, and Thunder Rods are pretty scary.

2x Fire Rod (with Fire 2 buff)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (155~218) damage [381~534 total damage]

2x Fire Rod (current)
Oracle: 15 MA, 8 SP, 294 HP, 70 BrFa, (113~158)x2 + (141~198) damage [367~514 total damage]

Ice and Thunder Rods are progressively weaker, respectively.

These are easily the most damaging dual-wieldable weapons in the game, even now in 1.38d.  With 70 Brave and Faith, the oracle is highly susceptible to attacks that ignore evasion (e.g. guns, 1.39 Titan, etc.), but still!  One way to prevent this damage is to forbid these rods from being dual-wielded.  They'll still be viable as two-handable weapons, but the average spell proc rate will drop by 0.5, thereby reducing the average total damage by 80~110.

On a related note, the Ice and Thunder Rods need their WP boosted by 1 to be comparable to Fire Rod.

I've yet to see a successful Dual Rod build. I find that these Dual Rod fighters fail because they can't close the distance without significant Move/Speed/HP investment, including my own attempt at chasing the Poison Dragon. I don't see this as a big deal as a result. I've actually rarely gotten success with Death Melee strategies at all except with 2h Katar/Air Knife. That being said, I don't see a problem (other than loss of style points) in making the Elemental Rods and only the Elemental Rods un-Two Sword-able. WP buffs also sound good.

Lowering Mythril Bow's and Ultimus Bow's WP by 1 is a good idea.  Kibaku Fuda is appearing to be pretty broken with its Dmg_B(SP*WP) formula. (e.g. A 14 SP archer deals around 190~260 damage using Kibaku Fuda with a Mythril Bow and Attack UP.  That is too high for what is supposed to be a debuffing skill.)  However, lowering Mythril Bow's WP by 1 only reduces Kibaku Fuda's damage by around 10 points.  For this reason, we probably need to settle on a new formula.  Is it possible to incorporate WP in the Geomancy formula [e.g. SP*(WP+Y)/2]?

Or it can be MA * WP. It doesn't need to deal good damage or be a damage formula immediately relevant to it's native class. It steps on Spellbreaker's toes? Yeah well it's 1 range and nobody uses Spellbreaker in the first place.

Spellbreaker

Speaking of Spellbreaker, Spellbreaker could use a reworking into a more focused, more efficient skill. It's formula is going nowhere cross class wise because so many other weapons and skills do it's job already. I think a better use of Spellbreaker would be to solely destroy Reraise. See, Reraise can quite often putting a team on the defensive insanely difficult. Wiz's {S1} can often stop offensive pushes that would otherwise put them into survival mode because of that single instance of Reraise. They get up, heal themselves back up and resume fighting. So I think a skill devoted to destroying Reraise would be helpful to an offense.

Spellbreaker: 1 Range 2 Vertical, 0 CT, 0 MP, Cancel: Reraise, Defending, Float, 150 JP, not evadable, MA + 80.

(Defend can also be pretty similar on the right units.)

Not canceling Protect/Shell/Haste/Regen has the AI benefit of stopping the AI from wasting turns getting into a Masamune canceling war and lets it resume normal play afterwards.

Misogi: Self-targeting, 0 CT, 5 MP, Cancel: Poison, Blind, Silence, Slow, Don't Move, Oil, Faith, 100 JP

This skill has an excellent potential simply because it's self only property makes it very good for offensive AI behavior. That being said, it's still hard to justify a 5 MP price tag in comparison to the other MP free cleasing skills. It should be free to use.

[CT5Holy]

If Poison and regen stick around even after death why not have also have blind and silence stick  around too, it would give a necessary buff imo for those statuses, especially if you're using night killer, nameless dance, bizen boat (katana), etc.

My first inclination was to disagree, but, this change would likely shake things up a lot and change the meta (maybe?). I expect status immunity to become very important, for example (yes, I realize that's the most obvious/likely consequence =P). So, it depends on if people want a possibly drastic change in team building (going off status immunity becoming more important, the equipment use frequencies might change, etc).

[Gaignun]

I've yet to see a successful Dual Rod build... I don't see this as a big deal as a result.

Yeah, that's valid criticism.  It's probably better just to leave it in, then nerf it if it becomes a problem.

Or [Kibaku Fuda] can be MA * WP.

I want Ninja to deal damage with it, though.  Ninja's MA is so bad that the damage will hardly make up for that gained by regen.  The damage target on my mind is around 100 (average) ~ 150 (optimized).

Edit:  Does anyone mind if we increase Excalibur's WP to 14 or add a spiffy feature like Always: Haste?  Now that Defender's WP is being boosted, we need to do something to Excalibur to keep pace.   This will also make Ragnarok and Save the Queen weaker by comparison, which I think we can all agree will be necessary.

[CT5Holy]

Always: Haste on Excalibur would be spiffy indeed. I approve.

Piggybacking off of the Geomancy formula idea, how about SP*((PA+Y)/2), if it's easily doable? In other words, replace the MA with SP in the current Geomancy formula. I think the constant would have to be a bit higher though, say PA+~6? I think that gets right around the damage you'd like. Initial calculations put optimized damage as ~140-150, average (on Ninja) would be ~80-90.