FFT Arena: Questionnaire Time Again! (For 131)

[Squidgy]

Chemists get more MP? I thought their MP was already absurd given their skillset doesn't use any, but good to see a speed buff. Monks... buffed? Mediators still lacking in PA/MA, but that's fine if they're intended to only use guns. Samurai innate 2H doesn't sound good to me (but I'm against any innates which help damage or defense.)

Accumulate/Quickening CT seems unnecessary. What exactly's the purpose of a charge time if the effected target is always self? Exploit stupid AI decisions to charge when 10 people get turns directly after? Wish change is aesthetic. Equip Clothes has a JP cost still? I guess it lets you get robes too... ...lol... robes.

Interesting Black Magic changes... dunno what to say about them, but Fire/Ice/Bolt Absorb is so easy to get, I doubt I'll risk having one. Balance buff might just make me use it. Nothin' much to say for Summons, still seem mostly the same.

Steal Heart requires opposite gender again? *tear* Worst part of this changelog.

Yin Yang Magic... First: Silence Song is fine, but everyone and their mother is immune to Silence due to equip options. Oracle's problem is much more in equipment, not their skillset. Petrify being double Death's hit seems wrong, but anti-petrify is fairly common. It still stops CT. Still too many spells which seem exactly the same. Good call in Move-MP nerf, but nothing for Move-HP?

We'll see how the CTs work for Draw Out, but I'm glad some of them do different effects now. With Draw Out having all these downsides, Elemental's gonna look even better. Any chance of M-Ev for Ele? I'm for a select few skills bypassing Evade... but Elemental is too easy to pull off.

Haku Korosu shouldn't work on sleeping units; killing them is helping the enemy team most the time. Working on Blind units with 100% Night Bows? Yeah, Night Bows, yeah. Two Swords/Hands still seem expensive...

Equip Magegear would be neat if Squires couldn't already equip those things, and even then, Wizard Rod can be replaced with Rune Blade for better stats, and books are just awful... just... awful. Maybe if "Magegear" was gear mostly for +stats, and there weren't Swords with bonuses on par with mage gear... Nah, I doubt anyone will touch this.

Cloths deal more damage... why? Because you have some Dance/Sing nerfs in the works I hope. I don't care how overpowered Angel Song is, I don't think I can stand to see that animation thrice for every Bard/Dancers turn, or the extra thrice per Mime... Hate hate hate hate hate hate hate Sing/Dance now.

[FFMaster]

Dance/Sing changes are still in the works, not sure what to do about them. Probably make them lose Persevere and just go from there.
All items are still in the air, but expect a few items to lose Immune: Silence.
Accumulate will follow target if possible.
Mime changes are also still in the air, they are gaining more HP and a few other changes.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Dance/Sing changes are still in the works, not sure what to do about them. Probably make them lose Persevere and just go from there.

This... is an elegantly simple solution I hit myself for not seeing earlier.

Losing Perservere probably means they'll need to be buffed of all things, in a lot of cases.  I agree with heavy but well-thought Mime buffing and a lose of perservering on Songs/Dances combined with the classes / skills themselves being made generally better to compensate.  Making Mimes less rigged and making things not perservere fixes that problem pretty nicely.

It also makes the Accumulate change make more sense, but I question whether it'll still be usable unless you buff it to +2 PA or something to make it actually worth some CT/MP investment.

[The Damned]

(For the record, I'm not sure if I agree with Raven's latest Mime proposals just because of the significant PA and MA boosts to "make" up for Overwhelm.)

Also, for the record, I was having ideas for the new Poles despite still being unsure if the Item Attribute list I put up was even correct. But then something happened (besides my computer acting up 12+ hours ago while I was typing this):

- Monk loses Equip: Poles, gains Equip: Spears

So, yeah....

*flips table*

Sigh. Back to the drawing board.

Anyway, speaking of those changes, I'll just break up my opinions into the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Spoiler time a-go-go!

spoiler: The Good

Most of these things speak for themselves:

1. Fury and Darkness Hacks Actually Working as Intended Now: Yeah, doesn't really need to be said what's good about this.

2. Squire losing MA: Necessary.

3. Chemist gaining Speed: Necessary.

4. Mediator gaining HP: Necessary.

5. Samurai gaining HP: Necessary.

6. Throw Stone becomes PA*6: Necessary. Also, are you sure that the Charging canceling only happens 6.25% of the time? I just want to be sure.

7. Defend becomes free: Good. People might use it now. Might.

8. Auto Potion becomes 80: This was needed and seems like a good compromise between 50 and 100 HP. I'm guessing its JP stays the same then. Is this correct?

9. Magicward becomes Shell & Regen: This seems for the best, though now it means that no class at all can cause Reflect status....

10. Archer's three changes: These all seem for the better, though Projectile Guard might be a bit low. We'll see.

11. HP Restores becomes 500 JP: I still think it should be slightly more, but I hate Monks, so that might just be me.

12. Holy's nerfs: These seem fine, though are perhaps not necessary given the amount of stuff that absorbs Holy. But, hey, freaking healers not being able to blow people up (in one go) is always a good thing, especially since it's not like they're totally defenseless anyway.

13. Non-elemental Wizard changes: These are for the best, though Counter Magic might be a bit too cheap now considering the elemental absorb thing I was talking about.

14. Time Magic buffs: For the better.

15. Titan's decrease in damage: That seems for the best.

16. MP Restore becomes 550 JP: It might be a bit expensive, but considering how (ab)usable it is now, that's maybe for the best. I'd argue 500 JP at the most, though. It does need a name change, though, or at least for it to be pointed out that it doesn't happen only in Critical anymore now.

17. Talk Skill all increased +10%: For the best. It might not be enough for some, but it's a start.

18. Silence Song becomes 1 CT & 100 JP: Definitely a start, though like Squidgy said, the problem is more equipment, but I'd rather it be this now and have equipment a problem than it be what it was and not have equipment be as much of a problem.

19. Elemental's Y value becomes 1 instead of 4: Definitely a start. I still say they all either need to become magically evadable or have an Element, though. Maybe both.

20. Vertical Jumps go in increments of 50: Much needed given how little vertical differences of more than 3 actually matters on most maps.

21. Equip Polearm becomes cheaper: This was needed.

22. Two Hands becomes cheaper: Necessary, especially if Samurai has it Innate now.

22. Two Swords becomes cheaper: "Needed" or, at least, a welcome JP drop so that Ninja won't be the only person to be able to use Two Swords effectively if it's around.

23. Lore's two changes: It's a start.

24. Fist damage changes: So very needed.

spoiler: The Bad

The stuff that I feel you changed for the worse, though "bad" changes that are generally more "WTF" will go under "The Ugly". I'll also be talking about stuff that you haven't changed at all in both sections, though more with regards to stuff that's been posted since I know you said it was incomplete:

1. Monks lose Poles, gain Spears: So...Monks become better versions of Lancer minus Jump and Shields then? Because that's what giving Spears makes them, especially since they already have incentive to use Equip Armor due to Head equipment deficiency. I really don't see why you're giving a damaging distance option to a class that already has it, especially at the expense of another class that's far less powerful than Monk (unless it loses its Shield for expensive Two Hands).

2. Monks still have Innate Martial Arts: Given that you didn't say anything about it, I'm assuming they still have it. Yeah, that still needs to die, especially if Mimes lost it innately. And them still having it innately makes giving them Equip Spears either pointless or OP. It's difficult to know without "running some numbers", which I'm horrible at presently.

3. Mediator gains HP...and only HP: So, yeah, while nice, this doesn't really solve...any of the actual problems with Mediator, even with the intended Talk Skill boosts. I mean, hell, you just made Chemist, which was already better than Mediator, faster than Mediator. Why would I ever use a Mediator when I can use a Chemist with Talk Skill if I needed/wanted Talk Skill, especially when Chemist has an Innate that's actually relevant?

4. Accumulate has a CT: Even if you make it Follow Target, I think the computer is still going to be kinda of stupid about it and it's not really necessary anyway. Just make it cost MP without CT, please. Make it cost more MP if you think it needs to, though I think 10 MP is more than enough.

5. Wish healing becomes 5%: This is a start, but provided that you didn't change the accuracy, this means little ultimately. Can you at least make it so that it's 100% with Squire's normal PA (or slight above it) at Good or Best Zodiac compat.? Or is it that already?

6. Equip Clothes becomes 150 JP: It probably needs to be reduced to 100 JP, really, for reasons that Squidgy said, at least going off current equipment stats and current equipment access. It might even need to become free, though that seems to be pushing it....

7. Dia becomes range 5: A decent enough start, but it doesn't seem to go nearly far off, even with the Move-MP Up nerf.

8. Martial Arts becomes free: No. No. No. No. No. NO. Why would you make this of all things free? Hell, why would you even keep it around to begin with?

9. Quickening still around: Yeah...why is this not dead? I can understand wanting to test it out with CT, but unless that CT is like stupid long (like 7 or higher, and even then Short Charge gets around that), it's not really going to make a difference in making it more balanced. It needs to die.

10. Dragon Spirit becoming 300 JP: This is rather unnecessary, especially given how powerful Reraise can be.

11. Haku Korosu taking 100% HP and activating off Blind as well: Yeah...you overcompensated big time, here. It was arguably fine as it is, just that the classes that could put people to sleep en-mass sucked and, well, what Squidgy said about Sleep often being more detrimental than Dead. Anyway, this needs to do one or the other because right now, while I know you did this for Kagesougi, it becomes pretty required to protect against Blind unless you want your team to die to Ninja, Archer with Night Killer, another Ninja and another Archer with Ninja Killer teams. Personally, I'd vote for Blind over 100% off Sleep, but that's more because of "100%" even given how easy it is to Blind people.

12. Clothes becomes PA*WP: ...And you're making these Spears because...? They don't need any change, really, especially given that they work fine as they are now being "second armors" as opposed to just another thing to easily bash face in with.

spoiler: The Ugly

Pretty much everything else is relegated to the "WTF" bin:

1. Chemist get an increase in MP and see no decrease in MA: I...what. Why would you do this when they have no use for MP? Buffing their speed is enough. Now they're even more superior to Mediator.

2. Paladins lose access to Swords, but not Katana: ...What. I just...what? Why? You do like the exact opposite of what at least a couple of people suggested, so I'm curious as to why, especially when Samurai didn't get any additional equipment options sans Innate Two Hands, which actually cuts down their usable equipment even further (going by current equipment). Are you planning on making all Katana able to be Two Handed and not usable with Two Swords? Even if you are, there doesn't seem to be any real reason for Paladin to lose Swords or keep Katana.

3. Samurai gain Innate Two Hands: I'm rather...displeased with this personally, but I'm willing to see how it goes. I'm going to have assume that all Katana are able to be Two Handed, correct? It seems rather...unfair to restrict them to just Asura Knife, Murasame & Heaven's Cloud while letting Paladin still equip all manner of Katana.

4. Mime loses Innate Martial Arts & Unyielding and gains Innate Move-HP Up: While I am thankful you even considered my "Move-HP Up" bit and that you got rid of Innate Martial Arts for Mime (which makes you keeping it on Monks even more WTF), I hadn't wanted them to lose Unyielding. It seems like they kind of need that, though I suppose I'm fine to see where it goes considering you said that you had other Mime changes already in mind.

5. Black Magic elemental difference: Eh, I'm rather ambivalent to these. We'll see how it goes though.

6. Carbunkle becomes AoE 3: That might help. Might. Perhaps consider letting it back to its original self, capable of causing Reflect again given that Magicward no longer will and Time Mage's "Reflect" is an anti-Charging spell.

7. Silf and Odin become more likely to hit: I'm not sure that Silf needed the boost, especially given the chance to cause Don't Act or Don't Move over an AoE 2 is pretty damn good. I don't like Odin, so even if the increase might have been needed (debatable), I'll doubt I'll ever be able to see it as an "improvement".

8. Zodiac becomes AoE 3 at MA*20: I...want to agree with this, but MA*20 over AoE 3 is pretty damn strong, especially when it's only 1 CT slower than Leviathan & Salamander. Even if it's twice as expensive MP-wise, it can't be absorbed or halved or canceled like either of those two, which is what makes me wary. I know it's the same reason you made it Y equal 20 since that equals the power of Leviathan or Salamander when those are Strengthened. However, being non-elemental actually makes it a lot more dangerous, I'd argue, especially since you don't have to "waste" a slot on equipping something to Strengthen it. Still, this is probably the direction it needs to go; just not AoE 3 (at least at that power).

9. Steal Heart's changes: Well, it's nice to know that it's JP increased and it's back to being opposite sex only, but I'm not sure if that Y value of 40 is a bit much or not.

10. Steal Accessory buff: While I understand why you increased it the way you did and it's again nice to be listened to, I'd say that this is a bit much, especially since it basically just punishes anyone who doesn't wear a Mantle (or Power Wrist) as their accessory rather than hating on all accessories equally since it's still physically evadable. I still say just make it physically unavoidable & lower the Y a bit and make it not trigger Counter Flood.

11. Oracle's other buffs: While I appreciate being listened to again, outside of the change to Dispel Magic, which I still say need to be reduced more or have lower CT or MP, these seem to be overcompensating ever so slightly. I suppose I can understand Petrify being so cheap because of how easy it currently is to cure and avoid, but...still, it seems odd that you'd increase Death marginally and then increase Odin and Petrify quite a bit more. Blind Rage is too cheap for something that lasts forever, especially when cures and counters to Berserk status are a lot less common than cures and counters to Petrify. Sleep arguably didn't need that big of a buff considering the range it has now, but that's the buff that I'm least worried about. Beguile really didn't need to be that cheap, especially if you changed Steal Heart back to being opposite sex only.

12. Elemental still being unavoidable & having its original range: While the damage decrease will indeed help it be less "blow your face", with Counter Flood around, it really does need to be at least magically evadable.

13. Draw Out: I can't say I like these changes outside of Bizen Boat, especially since they don't solve the problem of Murasame and I think that CT of 3 is going to have some problems, especially if the unit with Draw Out "casts" and then retreats. Outside of Bizen Boat and Muramasa losing Confusion, the changes also seems rather random and unnecessary as a whole, especially when Elemental barely got touched.

14. Katon, Raiton & Suiton changes: These seem unnecessary. They shouldn't be that powerful and they shouldn't be doing that much damage anyway, especially since they're unavoidable; it's not like the Y increase is substantial, I'm just saying. Ninjutsu as a whole is largely fine ability-wise outside of Haku Korosu & Kagesougi and given that you made those play off each other....

15. Axes and Bags having the same damage formula still: Okay.... Axes REALLY need a boost then considering how close in power Bags are to Giant Axe still.

16. Rods become MA*WP: I can't say I like this (and it kind screws over one of my ideas), though I'd bitch about it a lot more if WP on all Rods except Dragon Rod (which I still say is a problem) weren't so damn crappy (which I think they should be). So, meh. We'll see how goes.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't proofread the above right now just because of how long it's taken to type this up. It's been...annoying.

Dance/Sing changes are still in the works, not sure what to do about them. Probably make them lose Persevere and just go from there.

As much as I don't feel this is necessary, it's probably for the best. At the very least, it's a starting point.

Unforgivable EDIT (08/22/2011 - 1:35 P.M.): Actually, don't forgive me. Because the amount of typos in this were atrocious and there's no excuse for that, tiredness be damned.

[Mando]

If geomancy gets changed... just by lowering the formula... I will go out on a limb and say I wouldn't bother using it anymore...

There isn't anything wrong with it in all honesty...

Now as for the draw outs... if I could make a suggestion~ I would make it use the geomancy formula... then you wouldn't be forced to give it a CT as mages won't be able to abuse it and samurais with a somewhat balanced stat could actually use it effectively....

I do feel ninja is a bit pointless at the moment... outside the skillset.

Also for axes... if I could suggest anything,if you lower the damage on geomancy, then give them multi-element boost similar to the giant axe... but one that will boost 4 at a time~  that way they aren't "forced" to use 108 gems and hey that means axes can be "useful again"


I also think that these weapons could be placed in more classes:

Flail, Ninja Knife, Spear, and dagger

like... the paladin getting a spear

ninja knife usable by a squire and geomancer~

dagger on geomancer

flail on paladin and geomancer...

the reason why I say allow geomancer to use those weapons as options... is because if your nerfing the spell... give them some more equipment... I mean after all squire already is doing a better job at being geo than a geo XD

[RavenOfRazgriz]

(For the record, I'm not sure if I agree with Raven's latest Mime proposals just because of the significant PA and MA boosts to "make" up for Overwhelm.)

You... do realize that +3 PA / +3 MA is the exact same thing as having innate Overwhelm, but without the bias toward Battle Song and Magic Song strategies because you no longer get "free" PA/MA points every so often, right?

Sometimes I love how I can go "let's boost them by 20-25%" and people will go "sure" then I'll go "let's move that 20-25% boost somewhere less abusive" and then people have an issue with it.  Confuses the hell out of me, man.

[Barren]

Well if you want to change equips and what not why not give paladins flails

geomancers are fine with swords and axes and flails.....daggers im not too sure

ninja knives should just stay with thieves and ninjas otherwise squires are just too universal

[FFMaster]

Here is a list of attributes from Arena 130. As Damned worked out correctly, there are exactly 3 spaces left. With some items shifting around and others being condensed, we may have more. I have yet to start work on items, since it's normally the messiest project and requires a bit of playing around.

Here is the list, you can check it in Patcher/Item Tables to make sure. One of the free attributes is used by Dagger, and is more a test item than anything else.

1 - Battle Boots
2 - Save the Queen
3 - Excalibur, Healing Staff, Diamond Helmet
4 - Ragnarok
6 - Thunder Rod
7 - Asura, Flame Rod, Flame Whip
8 - Ice Rod
9 - Rune Blade, Wizard Rod, Wizard Staff, Mythril Gun, Ice Bow, Lightning Bow, Mythril Spear, Ivory Rod, Holy Miter, Wizard Outfit, Wizard Robe, Magic Gauntlet
A - Spell Edge, Murasame, C Bag, Circlet, Platina Armor, Linen Robe, Genji Gauntlet
B - Platina Helmet, Dracula Mantle
C - Gold Helmet
D - Light Robe
E - Giant Axe
F - Ice Shield
10 - Flame Shield
11 - Genji Armor
12 - Kaiser Plate, Black Robe
13 - Venetian Shield, White Robe
14 - Green Beret, Defense Armlet
15 - Gold Armor
16 - Iga Knife
17 - Hidden Knife, Sasuke Knife, Mythril Bow, Javelin, Secret Clothes, Sprint Shoes
18 - Obelisk, Twist Headband, Judo Sleeve, Bracer
19 - Koga Knife
1A - Golen Hairpin
1B - Flash Hat
1C - Thief Hat
1D - Reflect Mail, Reflect Ring
1E - Santa Outfit
1F - H Bag
20 - Earth Clothes
21 - Platina Shield, Vanish Mantle
22 - Black Costume
23 - Rubber Costume
24 - Gold Shield
25 - Chameleon Robe
26 - Persia
27 - Cashmere
28 - Diamond Shield, Small Mantle
29 - Ninja Knife, Heaven's Cloud, Cross Bow, FS Bag, Barbuta, Carabini Mail, Power Wrist
2A - Aegis Shield
2B - Iron Boots
2C - Germinas Boots
2D - Rubber Shoes
2E - Feather Boots
2F - Leather Mantle
30 - Oricalcum, Red Shoes
32 - Mythril Shield
33 - Ryozan Silk
34 - Crystal Shield, Mythril Helmet
35 - P Bag
36 - Defense Ring
37 - Magic Ring
38 - Cursed Ring
39 - Angel Ring
3A - Diamond Armlet
3B - Jade Armlet
3C - 108 Gems
3D - N-Kai Armlet
3E - Flail
3F - Morning Star
41 - Chantage
42 - Cherche
43 - Setiemson
44 - Salty Rage
45 - Cachusha
46 - Barette
47 - Ribbon
48 - Stone Gun
49 - Genji Helmet, Wizard Mantle
4A - Crystal Mail
4B - Defender, Crystal Helmet, Dracula Mantle
4C - Mace of Zeus
4D - Platina Dagger, Main Gauche, Assassin Dagger, Air Knife
4E - Diamond Armor
4F - Genji Shield

Free Attributes - 5, 31, 40

EDIT: As for things that are addressed for Abilities/Classes so far(changed from the original changelog i posted):

- Monk loses Equip: Poles, loses Innate: Martial Arts
- Mediator HPM up to 80, MAM increased to 145, Move increased to 4
- Steal Accessory hit rate increased to Sp+70%, no longer triggers Counter Flood, not evadable
- Haku Korosu damage increased to 100%, and now also activates on Darkness, no longer activates on Sleep

Things I really want to try out but will change if people really hate it(in the order as they appear in my brain):
- New Fire/Bolt/Ice
- Paladins without Swords
- Sing/Dance without Persevere
- New Draw Out
- Move-HP Up Mime
- Monk, just... Monk lol

Feel free to flame and argue, as it is the only way to a balanced game. If it gets out of hand though, I ask any mods just step in.

Also, I want to condense some items, which I have said multiple times. My plan is to change the way gear works slightly. Right now, I'm going to try to gear Helmets/Armor towards status protection, while Hats/Clothes will have Elemental affinities. This would give some reasons to use Equip Clothes if you don't have a spare spot for an accessory or something and also give more diversity between the two. Not too sure what to do about +Stat items. If you have some good ideas, just put them here =)

PS: Item names are also appreciated unless you want terrible names plaguing the lists.

[Dol]

spoiler: FFM quote

EDIT: As for things that are addressed for Abilities/Classes so far(changed from the original changelog i posted):

- Monk loses Equip: Poles, loses Innate: Martial Arts
- Mediator HPM up to 80, MAM increased to 145, Move increased to 4
- Steal Accessory hit rate increased to Sp+70%, no longer triggers Counter Flood, not evadable
- Haku Korosu damage increased to 100%, and now also activates on Darkness, no longer activates on Sleep

Things I really want to try out but will change if people really hate it(in the order as they appear in my brain):
- New Fire/Bolt/Ice
- Paladins without Swords
- Sing/Dance without Persevere
- New Draw Out
- Move-HP Up Mime
- Monk, just... Monk lol

Feel free to flame and argue, as it is the only way to a balanced game. If it gets out of hand though, I ask any mods just step in.

Also, I want to condense some items, which I have said multiple times. My plan is to change the way gear works slightly. Right now, I'm going to try to gear Helmets/Armor towards status protection, while Hats/Clothes will have Elemental affinities. This would give some reasons to use Equip Clothes if you don't have a spare spot for an accessory or something and also give more diversity between the two. Not too sure what to do about +Stat items. If you have some good ideas, just put them here =)

PS: Item names are also appreciated unless you want terrible names plaguing the lists.

- Haku Korosu scares the hell out of me if its going to work off of Blind and not Sleep.  In addition to all the ways to add Blind and how good of a status it is with Concentrate out of the picture, Blind persists through death.  I absolutely would abuse that tactic with something like a Grand Cross Paladin, Night Killer Archer, Summoner w/ Clops, and a fast something or other with Ninjitsu.
My suggestion would be for it to proc off of Poison rather than Blind.  Not only is Poison rarer than Blind, it would give it a nice synergy with Shuriken.

- Paladins without swords still confuses me.  Katanas are better than regular swords (with the exception of the Blood Sword).  I guess youre trying to remove the Blood Sword as an option for Paladins to weaken them a bit, but I'm not quite following how this is really going to be helping the overall balance any.  Some enlightenment would be welcome  :)

- The nice thing about being the boss is that you can do what you want to  :cool:.  Go ahead and try what you want and we can test things out to see if they work well or not.  After thinking about it, I'm wary of the CT on DO now for the whole move after charging thing.  We will see though.

[Mando]

I don't think bloodsword is even that great with a paladin right now... the elemental weapons + absorbtion are much more powerful when combined with grandcross.

The proc on darkness will make my paladin/ninjitsu combo only that much more potent XD  even if people block against blind/darkness.Sleep made more sense on that one skill, and poison would just make the ninja stupid strong again.


However, I think I see where this is going... this is to counter the turtle teams that just try and outlast with low brave/faith

[RavenOfRazgriz]

You guys, FFMaster has a fix for the move after charging thing.  But no one would know this because he has a few hacks he's never released and that I know about only through pipelines.  You kids need to learn to release things, really.  

Looking over Paladin more, I think the problem is that the class is good at everything - high PA for damage, healing access, status access, buff access, high HP, etc.  combined with access to four different weapon types and Robes on top of heavy armor to allow it to compensate for its main weakness of low MP with ease if it desires.  It's a problem because it does too much - it hits hard, it tanks, it debuffs, it heals, and it supports, all without considering its secondary skillset or R/S/M.  I think the main issue is that the class is just able to do too many things at once and has far too many perks vs. faults, and honestly, removing Swords isn't going to fix that much outside of aforementioned Blood Sword.  Kind of like how I feel about the .30 Mime iteration, since it has the same issue - tons and tons of perks that play right into the most abusive strategy and silence many counters with little backlash for them outside of "it's a Mime", which obviously isn't a big decrement right now.

As for gear - segregating things like that is a good idea.  Let Clothes handle MP / Element related things, and Armor handle HP and protective related things, such as Status guards.  Just make sure you can't stack too many status defenses at once, or absorb too many elements at once, etc.  As for PA and MA boosting - I'd give Helms/Armors a PA +1 and MA +1 "set", and Clothes/Hats a PA +2 and MA +2 "set", and make them the lowest-HP items of their classes.  This way there's a 'standard' for people who want something less risk-reward or metagame oriented, but the lack of HP still gives them a suitable decrement.  In the same vein, there should obviously be a high-HP-end item of each Helm/Hat/Armor/Clothes for the same reason - but for more defensive oriented teams.  Having both an offensive and defensive "default" is good for the metagame, since it gives people a go-to while experimenting or trying to counter a strategy they're unfamiliar, then the higher-risk-higher-reward Items exist for them to begin trying to use once their strategy is down.  I know I don't mention Robes, but that's because I've always found them to be a frivilous Item type - they're Clothes that heavy armor units can wear as well as light armor ones.  ...Yeah that's not redundant at all.  Dunno what you can do with them, really.

As for names and shit, that should wait until after you have a good idea of what you actually want the stuff to do.

[Mando]

I concur with Raven on this. Pretty much to the T.

I would add that I think the axes/flails need a better use! I think FFM has some ideas in the works though.

[Pierce]

Just had a discussion on IRC about this:

Female mimes need a PA boost. As it stands, they're only really useful for mimicking, but they insist on using their melee attack. All they do is trigger reaction abilities while doing 50 damage or so. This differs from male mimes who can be used as attackers and do decent damage.
--Not sure if this has been discussed in the topic above, honestly didn't want to read all those walls of text.--

[Gaignun]

Black Magic
- All Fire spells gain 1 AoE and Fire 1/2/3/4 lose 2/4/6/12 Y respectively
- All Bolt spells except Bolt 4 gain 3 Y and cost 5 MP more
- Bolt 4 loses 5 Y
- All Ice spells cost half MP and cost 100 JP more
- Ice 4 loses 8 Y
- Frog hit rate increased to F(MA*2+145)%
- Death hit rate increased to F(MA*2+100)%
- Flare MP cost increased to 50 and Y reduced to 40
- Counter Magic JP reduced to 300

So bolt is stronger, fire hits a wider area, and ice costs more JP?  I feel that these changes give black magic more personality, but not any more attraction.  Has the thought of adding status effects to black magic been entertained?  For example, fire could inflict poison, bolt don't move, and ice slow.  Black magic would be as yin yang magic, but with damage as insurance.  This would also ease bad matchups, as units who halve the elemental damage may yet be vulnerable to the status effect, although whether the AI will bother to cast the spell on the units at all is a different story.   Yin yang magic might need a buff in compensation, such as lower CT times or higher Y values.

Second, I support Squidgy's suggestion that one of black magic's spell tiers be removed for other spells.  Dark elemental magic is under-represented.  With dark elemental spells, black magic could be used as a counter to teams that use light robes for passive regen and to heal undead units.

On the subject of undead units, is it possible to let them die and be revived as normal units?  Susceptibility to healing damage notwithstanding, their gimmicky auto-revival feature is what keeps me away from incorporating them in teams.

Draw out with a cast time is interesting.  I believe this harms the skillset's reliability.  Is this warranted?  Draw Out's attraction is its flat, instant damage at zero cost.  If a damage nerf alone isn't enough, why not give it an MP cost?  That way, it would still be attractive with its instant damage, but it would require maintenance.  An MP cost would only further increase dependence on item and move-MP up for MP healing, though.  Perhaps it's time to do as Tactics Ogre does and implement passive MP regen across the board?  That's probably impossible.

[Eternal]

Pride made an ASM that regenerates MP over time, replacing Wall status. Just give every job Auto: Wall. This disables Regen, though, IIRC.

[Pride]

It can be easily altered to not require Wall and doesn't disable Regen. If you have both, however, it won't display the MP Regen and only the HP Regen.

[Gaignun]

That's nifty.  It could even be set as an innate for only mages if they need the perk.

[The Damned]

(Giving everyone access to innate MP Regen seems like a horrible idea, at least to add on top of a mass of other changes. We hardly need to make MP-damaging techniques, of all things, even worse.)

*cracks knuckles*

So, I was gone for a week, so a couple of things I was going to reply to a while ago went unanswered. I suppose I should do this before I start watching Wiz's 4 and a half hour long video, so here goes:

You... do realize that +3 PA / +3 MA is the exact same thing as having innate Overwhelm, but without the bias toward Battle Song and Magic Song strategies because you no longer get "free" PA/MA points every so often, right?

Sometimes I love how I can go "let's boost them by 20-25%" and people will go "sure" then I'll go "let's move that 20-25% boost somewhere less abusive" and then people have an issue with it.  Confuses the hell out of me, man.

It's because it's a lot easier to work in percentages for people than it is for them to just see additive numbers to some unknown initial total, even if those percentages just as meaningless without knowing that beginning sum. Not everyone works with stats.

Anyway, that's what I figured you were getting at, but it doesn't quite emulate the same effect across the board, does it? If it does, then ignore this.

Even with the lack of the "abuse", wouldn't it not equal the same 20% for a quite few things, at least where magic and probably gender differences are concerned? Again, if it doesn't, then ignore this.

Here is a list of attributes from Arena 130. As Damned worked out correctly, there are exactly 3 spaces left. With some items shifting around and others being condensed, we may have more. I have yet to start work on items, since it's normally the messiest project and requires a bit of playing around.

Here is the list, you can check it in Patcher/Item Tables to make sure. One of the free attributes is used by Dagger, and is more a test item than anything else.

I honestly don't know how I managed to get the right number when I realized how much I screwed up just by going over the list I made an hour ago. I guess sometimes luck can overcome my idiocy in rare occasions.

There are some errors on your list too (as far as I can tell), but I think I sussed everything out. So tell me if this is "combined" list is accurate:

spoiler: ARENA equipment list

1: +1 PA, +1 Move - Battle Boots
2: Initial: Protect - Save the Queen
3: Absorb: Holy, Strengthen: Holy - Excalibur, Diamond Helmet (No Healing Staff here, though I'd be fine if you either combined that with this or weakened Excalibur to only Absorb Holy.)
4: Initial: Shell - Ragnarok
5: UNUSED
6: Strengthen: Lightning - Thunder Rod, Morning Star (I put Scorpion Tail here the first time, like an idiot.)
7: Strengthen: Fire - Asura Knife, Flame Rod, Flame Whip
8: Strengthen: Ice - Ice Rod
9: +2 MA - Rune Blade, Wizard Rod, Wizard Staff, Mythril Gun, Ice Bow, Lightning Bow, Mythril Spear, Ivory Rod, Holy Miter, Wizard Outfit, Wizard Robe, Magic Gauntlet
A: +1 MA - Spell Edge, Murasame, C Bag, Circlet, Platina Armor, Linen Robe, Genji Gauntlet
B: Absorb: Wind, Strengthen: Wind - Platina Helmet (I completely missed Platina Helmet the first time.) 
C: Immune: Frog, Chicken & Sleep - Gold Helmet
D: Always: Regen; Weak: Dark - Light Robe
E: Strengthen: Earth, Wind & Water - Giant Axe
F: Absorb: Ice; Weak: Fire - Ice Shield
10: Absorb: Fire; Weak: Ice - Flame Shield
11: Immune: Sleep - Genji Armor
12: Strengthen: Fire, Ice & Lightning - Kaiser Plate, Black Robe
13: Half: Fire, Ice & Lightning - Venetian Shield, White Robe
14: Immune: Don't Move & Don't Act - Green Beret, Defense Armlet
15: Immune: Petrify & Dead - Gold Armor
16: Strengthen: Earth - Iga Knife
17: +1 Speed - Hidden Knife, Sasuke Knife, Mythril Bow, Javelin, Secret Clothes, Sprint Shoes
18: +2 PA - Obelisk, Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer
19: Strengthen: Wind - Koga Knife
1A: +1 MA; Immune: Silence - Aegis Shield, Golden Hairpin (Aegis Shield is here since it has +1 MA as well.)
1B: +1 MA, + 1 Speed - Flash Hat
1C: +1 Speed; Immune: Charm - Thief Hat
1D: Always: Reflect - Reflect Mail, Reflect Ring
1E: Absorb: Ice; Immune: Sleep - Santa Outfit
1F: Half: All Elements - H Bag
20: Absorb: Earth, Strengthen: Earth - Earth Clothes
21: Immune: Wind & Water - Platina Shield, Vanish Mantle
22: Absorb: Fire; Immune: Stop - Black Costume
23: Absorb: Lightning; Immune: Don't Move - Rubber Costume
24: Absorb: Lightning; Weak: Earth - Gold Shield
25: Absorb: Holy; Immune: Dead - Chameleon Robe
26: Always: Defend, Protect - Persia
27: Always: Defend, Shell - Cashmere
28: Immune: Earth & Holy - Diamond Shield, Small Mantle
29: +1 PA - Ninja Knife, Heaven's Cloud, FS Bag, Barbuta, Carabini Mail, Power Wrist
2A: Initial: Defend, Immune: Don't Act? - Defender (That's the only thing that I can guess that goes here since Aegis Shield doesn't.)
2B: Always: Don't Move, Protect & Shell - Iron Boots
2C: +1 Move, +1 Jump - Germinas Boots
2D: +1 Move; Immune: Lightning, Don't Move - Rubber Shoes
2E: +1 Move: Always: Float - Feather Boots
2F: Absorb: Water - Leather Mantle
30: +1 MA, +1 Move - Orichalcum, Red Shoes
31: UNUSED
32: Absorb: Earth; Weak: Lightning - Mythril Shield
33: Always: Defend, Reflect - Ryozan Silk
34: Immune: Stop & Slow - Crystal Shield, Mythril Helmet
35: Always: Regen; Weak: All - P Bag
36: Immune: Berserk, Sleep & Death Sentence - Defense Ring
37: +1 MA; Absorb: Wind, Holy; Immune: Silence - Magic Ring
38: +1 PA, +1 MA, +1 Speed; Always: Undead; Absorb: Dark; Weak: Fire & Holy - Cursed Ring
39: Initial: Reraise; Immune: Blind & Dead - Angel Ring
3A: +1 PA, +1 MA; Immune: Slow - Diamond Armlet (I missed Diamond Armlet the first time.)
3B: Immune: Stop, Petrify & Chicken - Jade Armlet
3C: Immune: Psn, Frog, Und & BldSck; Strengthen: All - 108 Gems
3D: Immune: Charm & Confusion; Half: Dark - N-Kai Armlet
3E: Strengthen: Water - Flail
3F: Strengthen: Holy? - Healing Staff (I'm guessing this is what goes here since Morning Star shares the same Inflict Status code as Thunder Rod and Healing Staff doesn't Absorb Holy like how Excalibur and Diamond Helmet.)
40: UNUSED
41: Initial: Reraise; Immune: Sleep & Frog - Chantage
42: +1 PA; Initial: Protect - Cherche
43: +1 MA; Initial: Shell - Setiemson
44: Always: Berserk & Slow - Salty Rage
45: Absorb: Wind, Earth, Water & Holy - Cachusha
46: Immune: Dead, Conf, Sil, Chkn, Psn, Slw, DM & DS -  Barette
47: Immune: Undd, Ptry, Drkness, Frg, Stop, Chrm & DA - Ribbon
48: Initial: Petrify - Stone Gun
49: Immune: Don't Move - Genji Helmet, Wizard Mantle
4A: Immune: Undead - Crystal Armor/Mail
4B: Immune: Don't Act - Crystal Helmet, Dracula Mantle (Defender doesn't go here because of Initial: Defending, though I'd be fine with getting rid of that to consolidate and save some space.)
4C: Absorb: Lightning; Strengthen: Lightning - Mace of Zeus
4D: +1 Move - Platina Dagger, Main Gauche, Assassin Dagger, Air Knife
4E: Immune: Berserk, Darkness & Poison - Diamond Armor
4F: +1 PA; Immune: Dead - Genji Shield

Regardless, even though, yeah, equipment is quite annoying to try to do, I'll try to come up with something by Wednesday evening (my time).

EDIT: As for things that are addressed for Abilities/Classes so far(changed from the original changelog i posted):

- Monk loses Equip: Poles, loses Innate: Martial Arts
- Mediator HPM up to 80, MAM increased to 145, Move increased to 4
- Steal Accessory hit rate increased to Sp+70%, no longer triggers Counter Flood, not evadable
- Haku Korosu damage increased to 100%, and now also activates on Darkness, no longer activates on Sleep

1. Monks loses Poles and Martial Arts: A good start (even if them having Poles was fine to me), though I must ask: Is Martial Arts still available to equip as a Support even though it breaks the game? Do Monks still get new Spears to play with even though that stomps on Lancer's toes? If yes to either of those, then I can't say I like this change (in light of those).

That said, Monks should probably be able to equip Hats if they're losing Martial Arts. I don't hate them that much to say they shouldn't ever get anything (if they're losing quite a few things, as they need to).

2. Mediator gets more buffs: I'm guessing this is in addition to the aforementioned buffs Chemist got? I...guess it would still be okay even then. We'll see.

3. Steal Accessory isn't evadable and doesn't trigger counters: Thank you. I'd say you overcompensated a bit since Sp (which is at least 8)+70% is rather huge. Not sure if that's because it's still going to be 300 JP or not, though, so I don't think I'll complain too much about that. (I'd personally think that the X value would be fine at 50 or 55, but that might be a bit "low" for the JP cost and target in most cases.)

4. Haku Korosu triggers off Blind for 100%: As Dol pointed out, this is rather terrible idea, even if Blind didn't last past death. That it does combined with 100% damage, though, is quite bad. I'd say to make it trigger off Poison (though there's still a cross-bow for that) as Dol also suggested and to make it take 75% HP (since it's not like it goes off CurHP anyway, right?) rather than 100% HP. Poison is still relatively easy to apply, but at least it has half of the potential triggers that Blind does and it wears off after death; also, most of the poisoning abilities could use some incentive.

Things I really want to try out but will change if people really hate it(in the order as they appear in my brain):
- New Fire/Bolt/Ice
- Paladins without Swords
- Sing/Dance without Persevere
- New Draw Out
- Move-HP Up Mime
- Monk, just... Monk lol

Feel free to flame and argue, as it is the only way to a balanced game. If it gets out of hand though, I ask any mods just step in.

I thought you counted a mod, though?

Anyway, I'm fine with "trying out" all of these. I just want to know why you got rid of Swords instead of Katana for Paladin. It's just such a...bizarre decision and I know I'm not the only one confused, especially with Paladin being as problematic as they are.

Also, I want to condense some items, which I have said multiple times. My plan is to change the way gear works slightly. Right now, I'm going to try to gear Helmets/Armor towards status protection, while Hats/Clothes will have Elemental affinities. This would give some reasons to use Equip Clothes if you don't have a spare spot for an accessory or something and also give more diversity between the two. Not too sure what to do about +Stat items. If you have some good ideas, just put them here =)

As Raven pointed out, that sounds good.

PS: Item names are also appreciated unless you want terrible names plaguing the lists.

Again, as Raven pointed out, for most of these, you should probably just wait until you (think you) know what you want the item to do.

When I brought up the "terrible name" thing, I was just bringing up my (slight) annoyance at you correcting the Engrish from vanilla on only some things and not everything. I couldn't really care less if things like "Night Killer" become the intended "Knight Killer" from PSP just as long as egregious things like "Oberisk" and "Wiznaibus" are fixed.

[Squidgy]

(Giving everyone access to innate MP Regen seems like a horrible idea, at least to add on top of a mass of other changes. We hardly need to make MP-damaging techniques, of all things, even worse.)

I don't get it... Witch Hunt was stupidly powerful in some of those matches. I doubt the AI will use MP Regen correctly though, but I fail to see why letting the Time Mage with 0 mp do more than a suicidal staff whack is horrible. Or is every mage supposed to use Ether/Angel Song (so broken, even if it triggered only once due to mimes.) secondary? Currently I see Move-MP UP as a necessity, not a decision.

I just want to know why you got rid of Swords instead of Katana for Paladin.

Especially since Katanas are for the most part just better than Swords.

I'm still for gutting mimes, even though I'm sure lots of people enjoy their... "variety".

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Anyway, that's what I figured you were getting at, but it doesn't quite emulate the same effect across the board, does it? If it does, then ignore this.

It actually does, because you're essentially increasing the PAM and MAM of Mime by about 20-25%.  Because Mimes don't scale, this is almost exactly the same as the 20% boost from Overwhelm.  It's slightly different because Overwhelm affects final damage, but not to a noticeable degree.  The only time the effect between +3 PA and +3 MA is different is when using Battle Song or Magic Song - and again, +3 PA and +3 MA is the weaker of the two choices, because Overwhelm will give you +20% on all your stat boosts as well, which a hard +3 will not do.

Is Martial Arts still available to equip as a Support even though it breaks the game?

Fists are using PA*9*(CasFury+35)*(TarFury+35)/10000 on this new setup and not PA*.7*PA*(CasFury+40)*(TarFury+40)/10000 that they use in .30, and Martial Arts now takes a Support slot instead of being able to be stacked with other skills such as Attack UP, Overwhelm, Two Swords, or even defensive Supports like Defense UP and Equip Armor.  So, it doesn't break the game.  Honestly, Martial Arts is probably required as learnable to give Monks incentive to still use their Fists over a Spear - you can use Martial Arts, gain 1.5x to your 9 WP Fists and all your skills, or use a Spear + Attack UP for a 1.34x boost to your X (usually above 9) WP and all your skills while also getting a second Attack panel... or you can mix the two, using Martial Arts to maximize a skill like Chakra with a Spear to keep your Monk further from the fray, etc.  The game is far from broken.  You're just being colored by your hateful bias.  It just needs to cost ~250 JP to share some kind of commodity with Two Swords / Two Hands.

That said, Monks should probably be able to equip Hats if they're losing Martial Arts. I don't hate them that much to say they shouldn't ever get anything (if they're losing quite a few things, as they need to).

^ This.  Losing innate Martial Arts is like losing 6-7 PA on a minimized PA male... with maximum PA, it's more like 10-11 most likely, but I'm too lazy to click into other threads and check their gear options.  So yes, they definitely need Hat access to make up for this on some level.



I still don't think Song/Dance needs to lose Perservere personally if you go with even something relatively close to what I suggested before, because neither Bard/Dancers themselves or the Sing/Dance skillsets themselves are really the problem, it's Mimicing those things to essentially get 8 turns to the opponent's 4 - and the blame for that solely falls on the Mime's inability to be countered well because of its boss innates.  I honestly think just dropping those retarded-level innates (and maybe that debuff on Life/Angel Song you spoke of a while back on IRC) is enough - the source of the issue, Mime, becomes about 5x easier for most non-HERP DERP DAMAGE teams to deal with, and in turn the Mimicing becomes far less of a problem.