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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

dw6561

Last Dance proc? That sounds hilarious, I'd keep it.

@silentkaster:
My vote is for Initial Fury on a piece of armor because it would improve Heavy armored classes a bit and provide a bit more flavor to them. This turns Lancers/Paladins into pretty customizable units, being able to take the role of a tanky sandbagger or a glass cannon. Putting it on katar would be interesting too, but it would have to be used with high evasion or protect since the Fury increases the damage recieved. Both ideas have their charms, I'll admit, but I would love to see more options for armored classes.
  • Modding version: PSX
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Kurosabes

I like the Dance proc idea as well. I would be more inclined to place them on cloths though. Maybe one of the poles.


Initial: Fury makes it possible to pair Fury and Berserk. I'd be leaning towards a weapon because on anything else, it would make just about every weapon have OHKO potential.
  • Modding version: PSX
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dw6561

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 12, 2015, 08:44:40 pm
I like the Dance proc idea as well. I would be more inclined to place them on cloths though. Maybe one of the poles.


Initial: Fury makes it possible to pair Fury and Berserk. I'd be leaning towards a weapon because on anything else, it would make just about every weapon have OHKO potential.


I see what you're saying about the initial fury. If we put it on a weapon, we could overwrite shieldrender or Platinum Sword with something, or perhaps Katar like silentkaster said. Hmm...what if a piece of armor got initial: sadness to counter the effects of such a weapon? If that is too broken, then what would be a good counter to that? I guess counters to warpath also apply to fury since they give pretty much the same effect in the long run.
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Reks

Just be careful with all of the OHKO talks, as it'd make any form of healing outside of Raise/2 obsolete.

Not that it isn't possible right now, but such a unit has massive drawbacks. A weapon granting even Initial Fury might be too much unless it's WP is low enough that said unit HAS to be a glass cannon to achieve the OHKO status.

That being said, I like the idea of a unit that can be as scary as a Berserked unit and still Act normally...
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Reks

Been playing more FF6 and, after seeing the Hawkeye's sprite, gave me the idea that there should be at least one or two more 'throwing' weapons. In this case, it looked like an Axe, so

Tomahawk suggestion? The Hawkeye does 'random' damage as it has a proc to do more depending on if an enemy has Float or not, and that kinda fits the idea of Axes' random damage.

Problem here is balancing it. It shouldn't be as strong as the others, but not so weak that it's unusable.
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Kurosabes

I would rename the Slasher into Tomahawk, and simply exchange some WP for the added range. Also, possibly exchange its 2S ability for a 50% Cover Fire proc if 2S on a ranged weapon is too much.
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fpkfor

I think it would be fine for a ranged weapon to have 2S if it can only be paired with another same range weapon,like how wiz did for his patch

dw6561

I like WKW's idea. I wouldn't mind 2S on it but a cover fire proc sounds okay too.

Quote from: fpkfor on November 26, 2015, 05:38:11 pm
I think it would be fine for a ranged weapon to have 2S if it can only be paired with another same range weapon,like how wiz did for his patch


I do agree. 2S on a ranged weapon would be cool, but I don't know how everyone else feels about that. Of course we could just tell everyone that they can't pair up two different ranged weapons in the rules, but that feels like an obvious rule patch to me.
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silentkaster

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 26, 2015, 02:48:12 pm
I would rename the Slasher into Tomahawk, and simply exchange some WP for the added range. Also, possibly exchange its 2S ability for a 50% Cover Fire proc if 2S on a ranged weapon is too much.


I'd probably actually prefer to use the Giant Axe for that if this becomes a thing. Slasher has a place among the axes currently for rando-big numbers in either the form of two hands or two swords. Battle Axe has the nasty decap proc, but Giant Axe just seems so...meh for most purposes. I guess it could be alright on a Lore using Geomancer or maybe on a Grand Crossing Paladin who wants to use Earth, but the WP is just too low for the latter and with the former, other forms of set ups are generally more effective. We don't see a lot of use out of the Giant Axe, so I feel this weapon is better apt to be changed. But either way, I'm not too strong in this opinion since the only Axe I actually like and use is Battle Axe.
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Gaignun

Giant Axe will be great on nether magic squires, knights, and geomancers: +2~4 effective PA for wind and earth spells with +30% P-EV as a bonus.  In the current patch, Giant Axe would be good for Fuuton and Suiton were it not for monks' supercharged PA overshadowing everyone else.

Andrew

November 27, 2015, 10:17:54 am #2090 Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 11:47:57 am by Andrew
Monks definitely have it all... they're potentially resistant to a plethora of harmful statuses with a single helmet, have decent HP, 9 Speed, crazy PA, and a wonderful mix of offensive and defensive skills.  Hell, on top of that, they can wield bags.  I feel that, if any job should receive a nerf, it's Monk.  I've been hoping for an overall headbands rebalance; it would also be nice to see Monks lose 1-2 PA (EDIT: if they lose PA, maybe they can gain hats, as well?) in exchange for maybe a bit more MP (since Head Break is widely used and accurate) and a point of Move?  (EDIT 2: I'd even be fine with just the extra MP, no extra Move, nerfed PA, nerfed Chakra Band, and access to hats.)

Speaking of Move, I feel that Summoners should also be bumped to 4 Move and be given access to knives.  Low HP, high MP, high Move support caster is something that appeals to me.  I know that this suggestion is rather unorthodox, but so is a lot of Arena in comparison to other patches and especially vanilla.  :P
  • Modding version: PSX

fpkfor

Quote from: Gaignun on November 27, 2015, 12:00:41 am
Giant Axe will be great on nether magic squires, knights, and geomancers: +2~4 effective PA for wind and earth spells with +30% P-EV as a bonus.  In the current patch, Giant Axe would be good for Fuuton and Suiton were it not for monks' supercharged PA overshadowing everyone else.


Squires cant equip axes for some reason

Gaignun

Wow, you're right.  In spite of having not played vanilla FFT in many years, I was still under the impression that squires can equip axes.

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on November 27, 2015, 03:18:42 pm
Wow, you're right.  In spite of having not played vanilla FFT in many years, I was still under the impression that squires can equip axes.


Yep. Axes are Paladin and Geo only without the Heavy Blade support.

I know I've proposed a lot of new (ish) things by this point, but I got an idea purely to make the recorders flip out when it happens: if there's a rod to proc Bahamut, why not one to proc Meteor?
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Gaignun

I wouldn't mind a Meteor Staff, personally.  It sounds like stupid fun.

Quote from: Andrew on November 27, 2015, 10:17:54 amSpeaking of Move, I feel that Summoners should also be bumped to 4 Move and be given access to knives.  Low HP, high MP, high Move support caster is something that appeals to me.  I know that this suggestion is rather unorthodox, but so is a lot of Arena in comparison to other patches and especially vanilla.  :P


High movement on a squishy caster is kind of counterproductive, though.  The summoner will outpace its team on larger maps and be focus-fired.  Maybe we could give 4 movement to a tankier caster.

dw6561

What's this about a meteor staff? Sounds like I can do some evil stuff with that  :twisted:

The only tanky caster I can think of is maybe Oracle, and even then I don't think high movement suits them that well. Nor do I think summoner should gain a movement boost because of reasons already mentioned.
  • Modding version: PSX
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Andrew

  • Modding version: PSX

Kurosabes

I wonder, why was the Float skill removed? Is it because the AI never used it? Or because it is OP against Earth teams? I really don't have enough data on it, but for a start I propose for Don't Move to act as some counter to it. They would cancel each other out (like Slow and Haste). Perhaps in a later patch, units affected by Don't Move could also become more vulnerable to Earth (because they can't move).
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silentkaster

Quote from: White Knight Wiegraf on November 30, 2015, 01:42:00 pm
I wonder, why was the Float skill removed? Is it because the AI never used it? Or because it is OP against Earth teams? I really don't have enough data on it, but for a start I propose for Don't Move to act as some counter to it. They would cancel each other out (like Slow and Haste). Perhaps in a later patch, units affected by Don't Move could also become more vulnerable to Earth (because they can't move).


I suspect because there are very few instances where the AI could use it and players (nor the AI) would be able to use it very effectively. What I mean by that is that Float only works on magic based Earth elemental damage. The only abilities that I've found that Float will protect against are as follows:

Earth Dragon
Quake
Local Quake
Kikuichimonji
Earth Slash
Titan

(Pretty sure I got them all but not positive)

Of those, three of them are instant (so the AI will not use Float without cause) and Quake is very fast so it is a highly selective ability that counts on the enemy team basically having one of those two abilities (perhaps Quake in rare instances if Float were CT1)

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but Float will not protect you from abilities like an Earth based Grand Cross or Earth based weapon attacks. At least it has not in my testing. So I'm guessing it was just removed to allow space for other abilities.

However, I am curious about reflect. I know that Sinkhole uses the Reflect animation. However, in another patch that shall go unnamed here, the AI uses reflect very well. It will use it if a spell that can be reflected is targeted on an ally (or themselves). As long as it can get the reflect spell off in time, it works fine. There are a lot of teams based on reflect and I thought it would be fun to have a way to use it in battle, but the only way to apply reflect in battle is Nameless Song and even then, it's not only a not great ability, but it can backfire since the AI may literally not stop using it even to perform some things the AI normally holds as priorities.

I wouldn't want to add it back to Time Magic since Sinkhole is superior for midcharging, but it would be nice to possibly use the Persuade or Negotiate skill and give it to the mediator. Since we took away the ability to Midcharge from Refute (which, not sure why since I don't recall anyone complaining but maybe I missed something), we could add a Talk Skill that could add Reflect maybe MA + 65% of the time or something.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

December 02, 2015, 04:30:37 am #2099 Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 06:12:51 am by Gaignun
Quote from: dw6561 on November 28, 2015, 02:07:35 pmThe only tanky caster I can think of is maybe Oracle, and even then I don't think high movement suits them that well.


The other option is a redesigned scholar/battlemage.  4 movement would be right at home on a caster with Clairvoyance/Awareness and innate access to shields.

Quote from: silentkaster on November 30, 2015, 02:46:11 pm[We] could add a Talk Skill that could add Reflect maybe MA + 65% of the time or something.


Thank you for the Reflect critique, silentkaster.  If Float is only applied to avoid spells mid-charge, then a skill that applies Float should certainly have 0 CT.  As you suggest, a talk skill would be perfect for this.  Considering its situational application, this talk skill should probably be both cheap (~100 JP) as well as accurate (MA+75 or so).  As a counter, we could add Cancel: Float to Don't Move, as WKW suggests.  Don't Move would become something like gravity: It makes the target so heavy that they are forced to the ground and can't move.

To push Float into the metagame, it would also help to move forward with the Titan buff, so people start using Titan more often (or at all).

Last, I threw together a few spear ideas, some of which are based on CT5Holy's suggestions:

Jumping Spears (none can be used with Two Hands)
Javelin: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, +1 SP, +2 Jump
Obelisk: 11 WP, 10 W-EV, +2 PA, +1 Jump
Dragon Whisker: 14 WP, 10 W-EV

Poking Spears (all can be used with Two Hands)
Blood Spear: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Cast: Life Drain
Heavy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, 100% Knockback
Gungnir: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, 50% Cast: Last Dance OR 50% lower CT by 30
Holy Lance: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Holy element, +1 SP and Holy Breath proc removed