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Banned maps for up coming tourney

Started by Barren, December 17, 2012, 05:57:08 am

Barren

With the mono tournament coming up soon, which maps do you think should be banned?

I'll provide a list of maps that Dokurider picked out and we can all decide from there

Banned Maps

Zigolis Swamp: Hard to maneuver around with hard to avoid Poison tiles

Port of Warjilis: The ship is a massive Chokepoint

Goug Machine City: Massive Chokepoint; biased to second player

Underground Book Storage First Floor: Giant Bookshelf divides up teams

At the Gate of Riovanes Castle: Hard to move around for first(?) player

Citadel of Igros: Difficult to close the gap separating the players

In Front of Bethla Garrison's Sluice: Divides up the teams

Lost Sacred Precincts: Difficult to close the gap separating the players

Cementery of Heavenly Knight, Balbanes: Divides up the teams

Besrodio's House: Machine traps the first player in starting corner

Chapel of St. Muround Temple: Divides up players

Hospital in Slums: Walls absolutely divide the player, ugly chokepoint.

TIGER: Walls are a nasty hinderance

Inside of Windmill Shed: Miller is possibly too much of an obstacle

Barius Valley: Very treacherous chokepoint

Bervenia Volcano: Geomancer bias, hard to get around

Graveyard of Airships: Geomancer bias

Zarghias Trade City: Ugly Chokepoint, biased for AoE spells

TERMINATE: biased against low vert skills.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Reks

Well, good to know some of the ones I was worried about hitting were taken out for this one...



And you reminded me to remind VB to get his team done tomorrow, if it's not too late now.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Dokurider

Couple of notes from me:

1. I picked many of these maps with a wide brush. Many of this maps are ultimately playable, but may be unpopular enough to be excluded anyways.

2. Usually, TERMINATE's anti low vert tendencies would be just fine, but consider that we are running a Mono-Class Tourney, and more often than not, many teams will be forced to run sets like Punch Art just to survive. Forcing them onto a map that will easily screw them over just seems like a bad idea to me.

Barren

Quote from: Reks on December 17, 2012, 06:18:36 am
Well, good to know some of the ones I was worried about hitting were taken out for this one...



And you reminded me to remind VB to get his team done tomorrow, if it's not too late now.


no as a matter of a fact I extended the deadline to 12/19 11:59 pm EST so VireBlaze still has time. thats goes for everyone else who haven't submitted their teams yet
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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reinoe


Zigolis Swamp: Hard to maneuver around with hard to avoid Poison tiles
For this map I think it should stay.  In addition to it's low chance of getting selected it adds a benefit to Float/Float Boots.  Plus it hurts both players equally.



TIGER: Walls are a nasty hinderance.
I don't mind the walls.  My bigger concern is that it hurts player 2 who is at a height disadvantage


Inside of Windmill Shed: Miller is possibly too much of an obstacle:
The map is so small I don't know if it matters.



Graveyard of Airships: Geomancer bias
While I would agree somewhat with this on Bervenia Castle, here I don't.  Furthermore the Death proc from Lava Ball is no more dangerous than the death proc from Odin, plus Odin is far more accessible.


Zarghias Trade City: Ugly Chokepoint, biased for AoE spells
I don't agree with this one.  AoE spells have a much greater effect on small maps like Beolve Residence or Doguola Pass.

My dreams can come true!

Jumza

I thought we were using the Besrodio House that had no machine thing in the middle. Pretty much agree with everything else.
  • Modding version: PSX
Nyzer: Alma teleports out of her own possessed body.
Raijinili: Remember that you're telling a modding community that the game they love could use some fixing.

Barren

FFM didn't patch the new editted map (at least I don't think)
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Dol

Can we add Zirkilie Falls to the list?  The chokepoint there is an AoE nightmare.

Gaignun

Bervenia Volcano and Graveyard of Airships are the only two maps Lava Ball can be used on (I think).  I think these two maps should stay.  There is death-warding gear available for those afraid of Lava Ball's death proc.

TrueLight

End: If I recall, this is the 1 vs. 1 map consisting of 4 separate battles.

Nelveska Temple: Player 2 gets trapped under the temple sometimes.

Banished Fort: I just don't like that map...


  • Modding version: PSX

Dokurider

I'd like to retract Zarghias Trade City from that list. I got it mixed up with Church Outside of Town.

RavenOfRazgriz

END, Nevleska Temple, Zirekile Falls should all be Banned.

There's nothing really wrong with Zigolis Swamp, Graveyard of Airships, Bervenia Volcano, Zarghidas Trade City, or Windmill Shed.  The center of Windmill Shed doesn't trap either player and the map is fairly small, so it just means the map is shaped in something other than an open square.  Zigolis Swamp is an annoying map but there's nothing wrong with it besides that because there's no Depth 2 Water anymore.  It's literally like both maps were banned for having terrain.  That's not a crime, people.

The other two being banned for "Geomancer bias" is a complete joke.  Holy shit a map-dependent class performs well on some maps and not others.  Better ban all the maps that are 80% Local Quake too.  That's retarded.  Geomancer was already put under control when its procs were adjusted, and Dead is both easy to block and easy to recover from compared to some other Procs because all teams can (usually) counter their units dying, whereas something like Stop, Slow, etc. in the right hands will be more game-changing than an auto-kill in the long-term.

Barren

So would everyone agree that END, Nevleska Temple, Zirekile Falls should all be banned?

If so then I can rearrange the maps and change some that are initially selected.

And I know its somewhat off-topic but would everyone be okay if its small/large/medium or large/medium/small?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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The Damned

(Basically what Raven said, except slightly less acerbically.)

Of the suggested list in the initial posts, the only ones that I could maybe see are Tiger and possibly the First Floor of Book Storage. However, Tiger's problem isn't so much the walls as listed or, at least, just the walls; it's also the rather noticeable height advantage one entire team starts off with. There's another Deep Dungeon map that's basically the same, only without the walls though. I can't remember what the name of that map is presently (though it's not HORROR or END or the very first map).

Amusingly, until yesterday, I thought we had already banned Zigolis Swamp until Otabo's latest couple of videos. I'm fine with that staying...for now at least, if only because there's so much damn Regen everywhere as the swamp's Poison seems like it's rarely going to influence the outcome of that match.

P.S. Also, if there's any Goug map that I'd like to see be removed, then it's the one with the Windmill when you initially come into town, not the one where you have to save Mustadio. The Windmill map is shitty both because of the initial bunch up and basically saying screw you to any distance weapon (that isn't a Longbow). Still, that's not necessarily enough to get a map removed and it staying will work to my team's advantage in the tournament....
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Malroth

i'd prefer Large->Small->Random myself let everyone see what happens when the teams have time to buff first,  then we see them in a giant pileup and if we need a tiebreaker let the RNG pick the terrain.

Avalanche

December 18, 2012, 04:45:26 am #16 Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 04:54:15 am by Avalanche
I am against a random map as a tiebreaker. I think there are certain Teams who only can win if they can reach the other team in first turn melee-range. Plus some Teams with +1 Speed on their units might have a great advantage because they can cause havoc at first turn, forcing the other Team to heal up and be defensive.

I think a Team who cannot win matches at Melee/large maps is not well designed. Whereas even well designed teams can lose to not so well designed team on a small map.

So I would prefer
large/medium/small
Or if we can't find consent for this; large/small/medium


Two General Statements about the selection of maps:
1.   Good status procs of elemental magic should not be a reason to ban a map!
2.   We should accept, that some Units and abilities grant an advantage on certain maps, if not what reason would there be to use abilities like Jump, Teleport, Float, ignore high, etc. So I think we should only ban maps if they mess with the ai, give a Team a general advantage due to the starting position or if the advantages of certain abilities are unproportional big.


Barren

Quote from: Malroth on December 18, 2012, 12:28:51 am
i'd prefer Large->Small->Random myself let everyone see what happens when the teams have time to buff first,  then we see them in a giant pileup and if we need a tiebreaker let the RNG pick the terrain.


I already chose the tie breaker rounds for the blocks if its needed. once the deadline is done, I'll post the brackets and if it doesn't look evened out for everyone or if there's a mistake, please let me know and I'll fix it asap
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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The Damned

(I agree with Large/Small/Medium being the best configuration, mostly for reasons that Avalanche pointed out.)

That said, I'm admittedly biased towards Large maps anyway given I like to use mages and Longbows and thus usually get curbstomped on Small maps. I have extra incentive with purposely using what many agree to be the worst class--Time Mage--that has the added "bonus" of being pathetically squishy even among mages.

So, yeah: +1 to Large/Small/Medium.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"