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FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread

Started by silentkaster, August 08, 2016, 03:57:10 pm

Gaignun

My input:

Ultima formula change
I think Ultima is fine right now, but among the proposed formula I prefer max(PA/MA)*9 with a Matk UP modifier over PA*9 with an Atk UP modifier.  Don't forget that Ultima pierces evasion.  If Ultima becomes modified by Attack UP, then monks would gain access to a 5 Range 1 AoE Repeating Fist skill while also remaining equally capable of using their native skills.


Cure 4 formula changing to max(PA,MA)*15
I am usually in favour of increased variety. It is for this very reason that I would like to raise a dissenting opinion.  This would indeed open up White Magic to PA jobs, but it would relegate Item to even a more niche role.  White Magic (and particularly Cure 4) has been getting buffed and buffed over the years, whereas Item has remained unchanged.

Hear me out. In their present forms, Cure 4 is a supercharged X-Potion, Raise is a supercharged Phoenix Down, and Esuna is an AoE form of Antidote, Maiden's Kiss, Soft, and Bandage rolled into one.  These three skills are all yours for the low cost of 500 JP.  As a bonus, by purchasing these skills, we will also give you, for a small extra fee, Regen to cover your MP maintenance needs and Wall to watch yo' head.

Meanwhile, for a higher price of 800 JP, you can choose Item and settle for inferior forms of Cure 4, Raise, and Esuna.  In addition, to mimic the cast range of White Magic you will need to surrender an additional 250 JP and your support skill slot for Throw Item unless you are a Chemist, and you will have no means of applying Regen, Refresh, Protect, and Shell.

Long story short, White Magic is already superior to Item as a support skill set.  Item is typically chosen over White Magic only for curing Berserk and Undead, healing with PA jobs, and supporting ultra-low BrFa teams.  Moving this healing role over to White Magic feels like stealing from the poor and giving to the rich.



Reks

Quote from: CT5Holy on August 24, 2016, 01:17:46 am
By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.


My main point is that yeah, it's still underwhelming compared to other skills. The smart-targeting aspect improved it greatly, but there's still room for that last push to making it great - Right now it's still an undesirable choice.

Not so much being on Basic Skill that makes it underpowered, far from it. Rather, I'd like to see anyone able to pick up Basic Skill and being able to use it with a broader setup, which the Max of PA/MA would allow, and would let Ultima Blade become super good in the right hands.
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Gaignun

September 03, 2016, 12:14:48 pm #42 Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 12:40:48 pm by Gaignun
My input to the suggestion list uploaded by silentkaster on 1 September.  There are a ton of suggestions in this list, so I will break up my comments with spoiler tags.  Most comments of my own proposals are omitted.

2016.09.01 Suggestions


1. Remove C-Ev: We will need to think carefully about the ramifications of this, as all physical damage (weapons and skills) have been balanced with C-Ev in mind up until now.  The most apparent change to the meta is that all physical damage will become much more reliable. (E.g., Punch Art's Spin Fist will become at least as beastly as Chirijiraden.)  Attempting to compensate for this by boosting HP, etc. will have additional ramifications on job balancing etc.  In short, I believe this change can be done, but not frivolously.

I would also like to mention that this change will also reduce the randomized nature of matches.  Very few jobs have access to shields, so these jobs will need to equip a mantle or use Equip Shield to add P-Ev.  Assuming that the meta remains unchanged and few of these shieldless jobs do this, all physical attacks will hit these jobs with the reliability of guns.  This means we will no longer see those miraculous 5~10% dodges that allow an ailing team to overturn the state of battle.  If we're OK with this, then  go right ahead.

2. Dancer +1 PA: No opinion for now, but Lord knows this class needs something.

3. Classes lose access to innate, obsolete Movement skills: I agree.

4. Monks lose access to bags: Cautious agreement. Monks loss of access to the +2 PA bag should be done in tandem with Punch Art balancing.  I'd hate to nerf Monk's damage to oblivion.

5. Monks lose base HP: I think Monks' HP is fine where it is, personally.

6. Monks gain innate Martial Arts at the expense of losing base PA: I disagree. This would make balancing Punch Art across the jobs even more difficult.  The innate Martial Arts modifier can be multiplied by the Attack UP modifier to boost PA by a factor of 2. No other job can compete with that.

7. Swap Summoners' and Time Mage's base HP: I am OK with this.  I think shield-toting Time Mages are a little strong at the moment, after all.  (More on Time Mages at the end of this post.)



Basic Skill

  • Reduce Concentrate's JP: I think Concentrate is fine where it is.  This will change if we remove C-Ev.

  • Make Ultima max(PA,MA)*9: OK.

  • Cheer Up (0 AoE MP healing): Sure, if the ASM hack is not too much trouble.

  • Recover (self-targeting HP healing): Don't we already have Nurse for this?  Why not just move Nurse to Basic Skill?



Black Magic

  • Boost Dark Holy to MA*15 : I disagree. I think Dark Holy is already plenty strong for an Unbrave spell.

  • Poison gains Add Sap: Worth a shot I guess. (See my suggestions at the end of this post.)



Chivalry

  • Reduce Consecration JP cost to 200 and increase accuracy : I agree with both.

  • Increase accuracy of Lay on Hands by 5%: I am still in favour of making this UnFaith for optimum synergy with its host Paladin class, but this is compromise is easier to implement, I suppose.

  • Preservation: Sounds neat. I recommend a low JP cost, as a winning team never counts on staying dead.



Elemental

  • Move Move-HP UP to Mediator: I am OK with this

  • Geomastery: Cool idea, but geomancy is in need of a nerf.  To prepare for the introduction of this ability, I strongly recommend reducing geomancy damage across the board. (More on this at the end of this post.)



Item

  • Antidote cures Sap: I am OK with this, and also strongly in favour of this if Black Magic Poison adds Sap.

  • Chrono's Tear cures Slow: Also OK.  Can we also rename this item "Chronos Tear" while we're at it?  This ain't Chrono Trigger.

  • Echo Grass cures Charm, no longer cures Sap: OK

  • Ether and Hi-Ether cure +10 MP: Absolutely in favour.

  • Maiden's Kiss cures Petrify, no longer cures Sleep: Kinda ruins the Sleeping Beauty mythos of the name, but no particular objections here.

  • Smelling Salts: I doubt the AI will heal 90 HP and 20 MP with Smelling Salts when it can heal 130 HP with X-Potion and 80 MP with Hi-Ether.  Rather, this will be used to counter Mimic Daravon teams, where units who spend a turn applying Sleep will have their efforts, as well as 90 points of previously-applied damage, negated with Smelling Salts.

  • Phoenix Pinion: Nice idea for elevating Item as a support skill set. I suppose we can debate the exact healing amount later.

  • Volatile Flask: I am cautious about the utility of this skill.  The AI will use it as it uses Wall, but it will have only half the efficacy 66% of the time, and none of the efficacy 33% of the time (i.e. when Transparent is added).  Good idea, at least.  Perhaps we can expand on it.



Jump

  • Equip Polearm gives Cloth access: Sure.



Lore

  • Rework mapwide Lore into random-fire AoE: Excellent idea.  I had completely forgotten about this proposal of Dokurider's.  Is Dokurider able to help with this hack?



Ninjutsu

  • Misogi also removes Faith and Undead: Good idea about Faith.  Undead healing is also welcome, although if expanding Undead healing is what we're after, then it would be better to put Undead healing on a skill which can target other units. (See the end of this post.)

  • Shuriken changes: Among all suggestions, I am in favour of reverting Shuriken to its form in 1.39.

  • Adding Lightning elemental ton: Sure.



Punch Art

  • Linear Punch Art damage: To clarify, I originally suggested that only Spin Fist and Earth Slash have PA*10.  Repeating Fist and present-day Aurablast would have PA*12.  However, these multipliers will need to be adjusted in accordance with patch 1.41.  For example, if we remove C-Ev or leave Monk's base PA at 13, then we will need to drop these multipliers by one or two points.  I will renew this proposal once the final form of patch 1.41 starts to materialize.

  • Stigma Magic cures Berserk/Slow: If we add Berserk/Slow healing, then we ought to remove some other status healing to avoid turning Stigma Magic into a super Esuna. Petrify, Sleep, and/or Frog come to mind.



Snipe

  • Equip Ranged gives Harp access: I'm fine with this.  Pairs nicely with Equip Polearm giving Cloth access.

  • Hawk's Eye changes: No comments for now.

  • Monkey Grip: Cute idea, but I must reserve my judgment until I consider whether this skill would open up any potentially broken combinations or extinguish any currently viable combinations. (A 16 WP Gastrafitis with a shield triumphing over any other crossbow comes to mind.)



Steal

  • Ruins: I wonder if it is possible to change these to reducing a significant amount of PA, MA, and SP, but only temporarily as if they were status ailments.

  • Piracy: Nice idea for punishing speed freaks, although I'm not sure what the skill has to do with piracy.  Double damage to Hasted units seems a little extreme, however.  If there will be such a modifier, can we reduce it to 1.25~1.50?



Summon Magic
The proposals to Bahamut and Cyclops are OK with me.  Actually, I would like add my own summon magic proposals while we're at it.  Please see the end of this post.

  • Short Charge moving to Time Magic: I respect Barren's argument, but nevertheless I find Short Charge just as useful on Summoners, as Summons have some of the highest CTs in the game (6 CT Odin? Yikes!).  Ultimately, it's a tossup. However, I would rather have 1/3 of MP moved to Time Magick over Short Charge.  While Short Charge works on both Time Mages and Summoners, 1/3 of MP is unquestionably better for Time Magic users because they do not have Carbuncle.

  • Caution: It would be nice if this reaction ability could also subsume Awareness, as both reactions are a little lackluster on their own.

  • Increase Short Charge's JP to 500: I need to disagree here.  Both Short Charge and Magic Attack UP have a place.  Among the damage magic, Magic Attack UP is a huge opportunity cost for Short Charge.  Among the status magic, of course Short Charge is more useful. However, this doesn't mean Short Charge is superior to Magic Attack UP.  Rather, Short Charge and Magic Attack UP fulfill different roles. For example, Magic Attack UP beats Short Charge when using 0-CT magic such as Draw Out, Elemental, Counter Flood, Cure 1, and Dia.



Talk Skill

  • Drop Insult's JP cost to 200: Assuming we leave Blind Rage unchanged, this is justifiable.

  • Move Move-1 to Priests: OK

  • Increase Solution's JP cost to 200: OK.



Time Magic

  • Comet gains CM, CF flags: OK.

  • Demi 2 damage increases to 66%: Hesitantly optimistic.  This will turn Demi 2 into a ~200 damage AoE nuke with no MA-stacking required. Then again, it is less accurate than Black Magic and can never 1HKO.  Maybe this is OK?

  • Remove Float from the game: I'm scratching my head over this one.  Unless we're in need of memory space, Float is harmless on Time Magic. Float is nice; it lets me hard-counter Earth spam, gives me +1 Jump, and lets me glide over water.  I like Float. (I just like Move-MP UP better.) If we need to free up memory for new Movement skills, kill something like Fly instead.  Fly is a Teleport clone.

  • Remove Haste 2 and Slow 2: Noooo ;~; . I like these 2 AoE spells.  If you think the AI spams Haste 2 and Slow 2, wait until you see them spam Haste 1 and Slow 1.  With 1 AoE Haste/Slow, you often fail to target all relevant units in a single cast, so you waste the second turn casting the same spell again. Meanwhile, 1 AoE Slow is too terrible to be worth the turn that's spent casting it.  If you're going for a 1 AoE Slow, you might as well go for a 1 AoE Stop instead.  Why are these 2 AoE spells seen as so OP that we ought to remove them?

  • Sinkhole becomes unreflectable: OK.



White Magic

  • Nerf Cure 4: I say we reduce the multiplier or revert the CT to 3.

  • Esuna cures Berserk: I would not like Esuna to heal Berserk if Stigma Magic does as well.  One or the other, I say.

  • Esuna no longer heals Charm: Fine by me. White Magic could use some small nerfs.

  • Esuna cures Slow: We already have an AoE spell that cures Slow.  It's called Haste.

  • Nerf Holy to MA*15: Is the general consensus that Holy is still too powerful?  This spell has been getting nerfed and nerfed over the years.  I personally think Holy's position on White Magic is its biggest strength. Put it on something like Black Magic or Lore and we'll see it used much less.

  • Buff Protect and Shell: Insightful analysis by Andrew. It was originally suggested that Protect and Shell heal some HP while applying their respective buffs, but this proposal was lost in the transition to 1.40. (Actually, I am not sure how dirty a hack is required to pull this off.)  A much easier and straightforward solution would be to make Protect and Shell like Wall.  (I think I'd still use Wall over Protect and Shell, though. And that's a shame, because I love the cast animations of Protect 2 and Shell 2)

  • Raise 2 heals 99% to make Cursed Ring more viable: Even if we reduce healing from 100% to 99% undead's best safeguard from the Raise 2 nuke is, and will likely continue to be, MP Switch. At any rate, this is such a small nerf to Raise 2 that I cannot object.

  • Regen changes: This skill has finally become useable (and is, in my opinion, the single greatest change of 1.40), so I'd hate to see it nerfed. Nevertheless, in the interest of weakening White Magic, I recommend moving Regen to Lore.  (See the end of this post for a detailed argument.)



Yin Yang Magic

  • Blind Rage loses 10% accuracy: I respect Andrew's suggestion, but slashing Blind Rage's accuracy by 10% would likely consign it to oblivion. This is especially true if we also make Stigma Magic and/or Esuna cure Berserk, and also spread around Berserk immunity on caster equipment.




Interesting ideas on the whole.  My initial impressions:

  • Aquatic (M), +2 Move in water:Limited usefulness.  Not many maps have water.

  • Back attack (M), +25% physical damage from behind: No opinion at the moment.

  • Coated Weapon (S), Add Poison/Sap if target is in Critical after a (weapon?) attack: Sounds kind of weak.  Rather than play with poison, I'd equip Attack UP and kill the target outright.

  • Mirror force (R), Add Reflect when taking HP damage: A hard counter to Black Magic and Yin Yang Magic users without Dispel Magic .  Are we OK with this?

  • Elementalist (M), Reduce elemental damage by 12%: Sounds like a support ability to me.  I bet you can make some super tanky units with Elementalist and Magic Defend UP/Unyielding.

  • Null: Reflect (M), support magic pierces reflect: Great idea for incorporating Reflect Ring on magic-based teams.  My favourite RSM suggestion.

  • Requiem (R), inflict Bln/DM/Slw/Stp on attacker: Sounds sinister.  Not yet sure whether this is OP.

  • Shed (M), remove one status ailment after moving: This is definitely OP.  Unless you are getting hit by Kagesougi, you will likely be inflicted with at most one ailment per turn, so limiting the healed ailments to one per turn largely irrelevant. Why bother with Poison/Sap/Blind/DA/Berserk/Slow/Frog/Faith/Innocent protection when this skill will automatically remove them after moving? Oracles and Mediators will dump turns into casting status magic over and over on these units, while these units will charge right ahead and punch them in the face on every turn the status magic misses.

  • Vengeance (R), remove all buffs from the attacker when targeted by status magic: Cautiously optimistic about this one.




  • Increase Black Staff's proc rate to 33%: Welcome change.  We can reduce its WP as well if needs be.

  • Bow Gun, 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 33% Cast: Death: At first I thought it was 33% Add: Dead and got excited, but then saw that I misread the spell "Death" and felt sad.  This Bow Gun is pretty bad. Throwing Knife, another ranged accessory, outright kills its targets at 33% (although with a two-turn delay) and gives +15% W-EV and +1 Move as a bonus. 

  • Chaos Blade removes Refresh: Good idea.

  • Ethereal Spear inflicts Sap: OK.

  • Reduce Gambler's Axe's proc rate or WP: Is this axe OP?  I do not have enough experience with this axe to comment.

  • Gastrafitis becomes 12 WP, +2 PA, and one-handed: Nice idea. It's present form really doesn't fit with the other bows.

  • Healing Gun gains 2 range: How amusing.  I was about to suggest the very same thing!

  • Ice Brand and Thunder Blade gain +1 MA: OK. I don't think these swords are admired for their procs, anyway.

  • Masamune 15 WP, +1 SP, 2 Range, Immune Slow, Forced 2H: So, basically a superior form of the current Masamune. The current Masamune has -1 SP, but gives back this SP through Always Haste.  In addition, it turns the next point of added SP into +2 SP.  For example, a Samurai with Masamune and Genji Helm has 10 SP. With this new version, the Samurai will also have 10 SP. However, the important difference is that with this new version the samurai can be hasted to achieve 12 SP. If we recognize and are OK with this, then I have no objections.

  • Meteor Rod procs 200 damage comet: I'm OK with this for now.  Meteor Rod is certainly in need of a buff!

  • Night Killer, 33% Add Blind & Poison: Certainly better than its current form.  I still think this weapon is weak, however.

  • Platinum Sword, Immune: Slow: Welcome change.  Will help teams cope with Slow 2. (Fingers crossed that we do not kill Slow 2.)

  • Spellgun nerfs: I am personally in favour of dropping their WP by 1 or dropping their range by 1~2, but not both.

  • Dwarven Fan, 33% Cast Quake: Could be good on Scholars!

  • El Bow, Two-Swordable Crossbow: Fun idea for extending the range of melee weapons.  However, I believe the only class that has access to both Crossbows and melee weapons is Squire.  Still fine by me.




  • Swift Plate changes: My favourite suggestion is that the shield keeps +1 SP, but gains Haste immunity.  This will curb its use on Time Mages.  Also, I would suggest we also give the shield Slow immunity since Haste will not be able to remove this ailment.

  • Chivalry shields: Wouldn't it be easier to simply put the new skills on Chivalry and let these skills be used in spite of the shield?





  • Armor adding MP: Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer clothes and robes to be solely responsible for adding MP. Paladin, Lancers, and Samurai have access to robes for providing MP. As an alternative, there is 1/3 of MP.

  • Chakra Band losing -1 SP: Although I was initially hesitant, I do not mind -1 SP on Chakra Band after seeing teams still using it in the present tournament.  If we remove -1 SP anyway, perhaps reducing its HP to 10~20 would be an appropriate trade.

  • Golden Hairpin halves Holy & Dark: I am OK with this provided we add Holy & Dark strengthening to a robe as Andrew suggests.

  • Light Robe now adds Don't Act immunity instead of Always Regen: By removing Always Regen we are forsaking Paladins.  Light Robe has always been a Paladin robe since Paladins (1) have high HP pools to leverage Regen and (2) need an MP pool to use Chivalry skills.  Light Robe in its current form will be more relevant than ever if P Bag is changed to add Always Refresh and only Always Refresh (like Rune Blade).

  • Mythril Helmet provides +1 Move: Glad someone addressed my biggest concern with armored job: Their terrible Move stat.  I am completely in favour of turning this helmet into a Green Beret for armored jobs. 

  • Robe of Lords gains Sap immunity: Welcome suggestion.

  • Bronze Armor, Init: Innocent: OK.





  • Cursed Ring provides 100% revival: Disagree with this proposal.  We had Cursed Ring like this before, and it was as OP as hell.

  • Reflect Ring turns into a PA-based ring: Don't agree with the provided arguments. Reflect Ring is right at home on casters to cover high Faith, and this strategy is punished by Summon Magic.  The inability to cast support magic on units with Reflect Ring will be deftly solved if we implement DW's proposed Null: Reflect movement ability.




  • Killing Float: I personally like Float as an additional means of nullifying Earth damage.  In exchange, we make (or at least try to make) Earth magic more powerful than average.  This adds a bit of diversity between the elements. E.g.

    • Fire is wide AoE, but weak

    • Ice is average in power and affordable

    • Lightning is powerful, but expensive

    • Wind is fast but weak

    • Water is average in power, debuffs, and pierces reflect

    • Earth is average in speed, but hits like a truck


    Owing to the potency of 1HKO strategies, players have additional options for countering Earth damage.  I suppose this is really a matter of personal opinion.

  • Merge Poison and Sap: Not necessary in my opinion.  We need some easy ailments to apply, and Poison is one of them.  Merging Poison with Sap would make the ailment more powerful than it needs to be.




And finally, the most dreaded content of all


  • Undead healing: This ailment is powerful owing to the dearth of ways to heal it.  (Currently, only Holy Water cures Undead). In the interest of turning Undead into a more manageable ailment, and also making Squires and their skill set more viable, I propose we buff Heal:

    Heal: 2 Range, 0 AoE, Cancel: Berserk, Charm, Darkness, Poison, Oil, Stop, Undead


  • Scholars, Poison, and Regen: Persisting in my pursuit of the tank mage, I propose we give Scholars access to helmets as well as armor (and optionally also Shields at the expense of 1 or so base MA; Time Mages can lose shields while receiving something else, like +1 SP).  Hat access would be removed in exchange.  Next, we move Regen and Poison to Lore. The higher HP pool provided by full armor allows Scholars to leverage Regen.  Poison tags along as the antithesis of Regen, and viola: Scholars become the masters of HoT DoTs.


  • Geomancy: I feel that Geomancy is too strong at present.  Let's list its strengths:

    • 5 range

    • 0 CT

    • 1 AoE

    • Inflicts status ailments

    • Ignores evasion

    • Ignores Brave and Faith

    • Works with Counter Flood (This last one is a big strength)


    In patch 1.40, on top of all of the above, we gave Geomancers +1 PA and MA and also boosted the constant of non-elemental geomancy by 2.  Now we have Carve Models doing over 150 evasion-piercing, non-elemental damage on and between turns.  At the very least, I suggest we drop non-elemental geomancy to pre-1.40 levels.




In the words of James Brown, "Good God!" This was a long post.

gatebuster202

Why we will never give another Mage a Shield.

So long as Aegis Shield exists, you can not give another Mage Aegis shield. TM are only MA 9. On any Damaging Build they automatically go to 10 MA, get 30% M-Ev and 5% P-Ev.

This is fine on Time Mage, it puts them in line with White Mages and gives them a Evasion Edge. Other Mages innately start with a Better MA, more weapons and a more supportive or Damaging skillset. The Time Mage on the other hand, is a fifty/fifty skillset on support and disruption. They are not in and other themselves game winners, beyond Haste/Slow/Stop, which other skillsets do well and only Archers do it with Shields.

IF another mages gains shields they gain a free point of MA and a Free 30% M-Ev. I don't want Wizards getting any more power, and they are the least likely to get shields. However, a White Mage and Oracle now equals a Summoner and Summoner and Scholar equal a Black Mage with a free 30% M-Ev. If you nerf their MA, everyone who wants a damage mage will now have to Auto Equip Aegis Shield and you must commit to killing them with Physical Evasion, or Unevadeables. You can't punish people who don't want to build a Evasive, Magic User, by reducing their damage dealing.
  • Modding version: PSX
Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

dw6561


We all know I'm a geomancer nut but I don't see how geomancy needs a nerf. I think it's in the perfect spot right now. The real problem is counter flood which is basically free damage when hit with almost anything (the flags in patcher apparently don't affect the actual trigger). Counter Flood is particularly strong right now due to the damage bug that makes a charged skill or reaction (anything that happens in between turns) depend on fury. I have had 176 damage Elementals due to this bug. Without this bug (which I've fixed, btw- patch might come out soon) we'll have to see if counter flood damage is still a problem.

If we really need to nerf it that badly, Gatebuster proposed lowering elemental's range to 3 or 4. I'm ok with this as that allows mimes to be used effectively with these skills (the current range is too much for the mime to position themselves with a lot of skills).

There's not really much else we can DO to it to be honest. This is why I've been advocating changes to elemental, because something just doesn't sit right with me on how it works in a tournament patch setting. Geomancy is in a sort of unstable equilibrium right now, and the fact that there aren't that many ways to adjust Geomancy makes it very hard to balance (similar to magic guns). This is why I've been seeming like a crazy person and babbling about changing geomancy somewhat radically from its percieved "anti-sandbag" function.


Most of us are on board with this because it's a more elegant, smoother, well thought out way to make it work. Right now we have several problems with the new statuses, including the AI not curing Sap correctly and not being able to give these statuses a CT. These statuses have almost no AI coding either. Right now, Sap feels like a chunky add-on (ESPECIALLY Sap) that was introduced just to counter Refresh and never actually incorporated into the game. Like that one thing that's just there and not really utilized.

If we were to merge the statuses though, The AI cures poison well and uses it to midcharge casters often. They would use Poison and Regen's CT, so we no longer have to deal with them not lasting on death. We know that the AI does stuff with the blank status if we put it on regen, so we can still use it as a dummy status on that skill. This solves all of those problems and we don't need any new ASMs. It's much easier on me too since I don't have to try and replace the CT of other statuses just to make this idea work.


Quote
Remove Haste 2 and Slow 2: Noooo ;~; . I like these 2 AoE spells.  If you think the AI spams Haste 2 and Slow 2, wait until you see them spam Haste 1 and Slow 1.  With 1 AoE Haste/Slow, you often fail to target all relevant units in a single cast, so you waste the second turn casting the same spell again. Meanwhile, 1 AoE Slow is too terrible to be worth the turn that's spent casting it.  If you're going for a 1 AoE Slow, you might as well go for a 1 AoE Stop instead.  Why are these 2 AoE spells seen as so OP that we ought to remove them?

Haste 2 and Slow 2 are OP because they are smart targeting and 2 AoE, meaning you can spam them to your liking without the consequence of accidentally hitting a teammate with slow or hasting an enemy. It's a HUGE advantage for fast teams. I don't know if you saw that one match where my 8 SP team with no slow protection was completely rendered useless by these 2 skills because they couldn't do anything (enemy team was too fast with 10 SP + haste). If we try to reduce their accuracy, the skill becomes spammed just as much as yell. If we try to increase their JP cost, they become nigh unusable on most support builds. MP cost doesn't matter. Making them no longer smart target might be a bad idea because then they will backfire counter-productively. So...what else CAN we do to them?

Every team packs haste due to the lack of slow removal or protection we have in the game, as I guess these statuses were balanced with the aspect that they cancel each other in mind. We wanted to transition into a meta where haste isn't necessary on every single team in the world, hence why we are advocating more slow removal and reducing sources of haste.


I like float too! I'm not sure why Andrew was all gung-ho about removing float and every source of float from human access. The null-earth aspect is also its most useful aspect, and if we take that away then there's not really any reason to use it. Also monsters NEED the float/fly movement skills or else they will look incredibly awkward when treading through water. We can't just give every monster innate walk on water because A) that wastes an RSM slot and B) that gives those monsters an unfair advantage. I like float the way it is and don't want to see it changed.

But I'll still whip up a remove null: earth hack regardless.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

gatebuster202

On Float... If Float blocked Earth skills but not Earth Weapons I am ok with it. Earth skills roughly number 5. (Kiku, Quake, Earth Slash, Titan, Geomancies.) (I may have missed one.) Blocking all of those and then blocking all Earth-modified Weapons Skill including Grand and Southern Cross... That sucks. But then you take away the Giant Axe's ability to hit you. You remove Kiku, you remove any future earth weapon from the Equation... That sucks... In my opinion, leaving Float, and allowing to block Earth Skills should come at a cost. Weakness to (Wind or Lightning weapons and abilities.) or Earth Weapons... This would mean that when your floating your protected from Earth Dragon, Earth Slash, ect... But you do have a trade off. However small.
  • Modding version: PSX
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Andrew

Why don't we change Float so that it nulls Dark and Holy instead of Earth?  They're hard to counter due to the lack of half: X for them, easy to strengthen due to Golden Hairpin, and are often desirable to pair with one another (Bizen Boat/Kotetsu; Holy and Dark Holy).  So, wouldn't this change be the most appropriate?  People would be running Float much more often!  In case you weren't aware, I'm definitely kidding about this, since it would be *much* more feasible to simply change Golden Hairpin's strengthen Dark+Holy to half: Dark+Holy (and then introduce a new robe that grants Dark+Holy strengthening) than to do something like that.

Pre-140, I understood why Float nulled Earth, and it was mostly due to how OP Quake was at the time.  So, since Quake was already nerfed appropriately... why does Float still null Earth?  I think that the answer is Diamond Armlet & Earth Clothes.  Diamond Armlet provides some very handy status immunities (Oil+Slow), +1 PA, +1 MA, *and* absorbs Earth.  Earth Clothes absorbs *and* strengthens Earth, something that is only seen elsewhere on the Mace of Zeus, and for Lightning instead.  Why is Mace of Zeus rarely used despite doing this?  Because it's a weapon with low WP, and is limited to jobs that can equip staves, while Earth Clothes is body armour that can be worn by most jobs.  So, it's plain to see that these two pieces of equipment make Earth absorb team building a breeze.

If Float were to lose its null: Earth property, then Diamond Armlet & Earth Clothes could safely be nerfed with no consequences balance-wise.  Diamond Armlet could simply lose its +1 MA, which would promote Diamond Armlet to a physically-inclined accessory, and would mirror Magic Ring nicely.  Earth Clothes could go 100 HP/10 MP, lose its Earth strengthening, and gain Fire absorb; Black Costume could lose its Fire absorb and gain Water absorb; Rubber Costume could lose its Water absorb and gain Holy absorb.  There, all of the clothes would provide absorb options for all elements, and were swapped around to avoid OP absorb stacking for certain skillsets.

So, if the above changes were to happen, what benefits would Float provide still?  It would increase the affected's height by 1 and allow them traverse over water unimpeded.  That's nice and all, but hardly relevant due to the lack of maps with large bodies of water.  Float (movement) would be a disappointing waste of space, and Float (status) could simply be stripped from Diamond Helmet and it would still be a great choice, since people used the Crystal Helmet pre-140 and all it did was provide Don't Act immunity.

While we were developing 140, there were hypothetical suggestions for providing Float with alternate boons if its null Earth property was removed: WKW suggested that it could gain +1 Move and +1 Jump, but this would make the Float Movement skill incredibly desirable over Move +1 or Jump +1.  If there were others, I don't remember them, because they were (probably) not good enough *to* remember.  I still feel that simply removing Float's null Earth property, making the above changes to Diamond Armlet/Earth Clothes, and limiting its access to Bombs and Ghosts (two monster families that need always Float in order to not look glitchy) would be the most appropriate change we could make.
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gatebuster202

@Float.

With Andrew's idea of reworking Elemental clothes, I'd be ok with float being Removed altogether as a human option and only being something monsters can use in the future. Removing a point of MA off Diamond Armlet and reworking the clothes set to be more comprehensive on elemental absorb is a nice start. The proposed rework to Golden Hairpin, means that monk will lose elemental strengthening outside of 108 gems. I am completely ok with this, as Monks still have Chakra band.
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Winner of the 2nd FFT Arena SCC Tourney. -Geomancers

Gaignun

September 04, 2016, 02:23:41 pm #48 Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 02:49:44 pm by Gaignun
Merging Poison/Regen: Roger. I did not realise we would merge Regen and Refresh as well.  I have one concern: Hawk Eye and Scorpion Tail do big damage while incidentally applying Poison at a high rate.  If Poison turns into a mage killer, then something about these things might be in need of an adjustment.

Concerning Scorpion Tail, if this weapon remains unchanged, can we remove Flail access from Ninja?. When patch 1.40 reverted Scorpion Tail to 12 WP, Scorpion Tail's damage was boosted by 25% on Ninja with Attack Up.  These Ninja are hitting 40 Br units for over 300 damage without stacking a single point of PA.  Keep an eye on True Light's Ninja in the present tournament to see what I mean.

Since the Refresh flag has turned out to be an excellent method for coaxing the AI to use spells proactively, why not add it to Protect and Shell?  That way the AI will open battles with these spells as they ought to.  Wall can remain as a reactionary spell for the sake of variation.

Haste/Slow 2: Why not remove smart targeting and let the spells ocassionally backfire?  To use Slow 2, one's frontline units will require Slow immunity to avoid friendly fire.

Mages and shields: To clarify, I am suggesting we give Scholars shields in place of Time Mages.  Time Mages would receive 10 SP and become the Thieves of the magic world. Scholars would lose base MA so that they do not become Wizards with free EV.

Aegis Shield is a problem of its own.  It has been the most powerful all-purpose shield for mages ever since Venetian Shield became Swift Plate years ago.  I actually wanted to propose changes to Aegis Shield as well as Genji Shield in my previous post, but ran out of energy before writing them down.  Here they are:

Aegis Shield: 0 PEv, 25 MEv, +1 MA, Innocent immunity (partially subsumes Secular Shield)
Genji Shield: 25 PEv, 0 MEv, +1 PA, Darkness immunity

The Genji Shield change incidentally opens up the accessory slot for light armoured Grand Cross users (i.e. Squire and Geomancer).

Float: I cannot say anything at the moment about killing Float and shuffling around elemental absorptions because I am struggling to comprehend the arguments.  However, I can say that Earth elemental weapons do indeed ignore Float.  I recall seeing Earth elemental Grand Crosses hitting floating Time Mages while preparing for the present tournament.

Geomancy: Non-elemental Geomancy still pushes 150 according to its formula.  That's comparable to Draw Out.  It is mainly this non-elemental damage that I am concerned about, as there is no way to protect oneself from it other than with Shell.  Would it be agreeable if we gave all non-elemental geomancy an element and dropped their formula constants to 2?  That way geomancy fans can still deal high damage, while victims can protect themselves better with clothes, the above-proposed Elementalist movement ability, etc.

CT5Holy

I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Barren

I'm hoping for changes 2 or 3 for the shuriken formula (based off the suggestions Andrew sent me) because it does need a damage buff.

If we have to revert it back to 1.39, my only condition is that it doesn't phase through walls. Because if you were to hire a assassin let's say to come to someone's house and kill them, would they try to throw a shuriken throw a brick wall and hope it hits the target? Just think about how stupid the assassin would be for trying.

Anyhow, shuriken should still feel like it's a fresh addition to 1.4 and different from 1.39. That's all I hope for in the end.

I would still keep float too. People just haven't found reason to use it. But people also forget that since it's immune to earth, not even Oil can override it
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dw6561

Quote from: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 02:56:23 pm
I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.


I couldn't have worded it any better. With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140, but since we've never seen the null: earth on float be a problem before, I don't see a justification for removing it. 
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CT5Holy

Quote from: dw6561 on September 04, 2016, 03:51:00 pm
With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140...


Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

gatebuster202

Quote from: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 05:11:26 pm
Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.


I'm going to put a well thought out argument for Robes, Clothes and Hats to have some changes. Mostly it will be Elemental Interactions that I am looking at but won't touch the Stat-giving items. (They're in a nice place.)
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Gaignun

September 05, 2016, 07:10:27 am #55 Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 07:43:02 am by Gaignun
I'm looking forward to it, gatebuster.

Quote from: Barren on September 04, 2016, 03:39:26 pmBut people also forget that since [Float is] immune to earth, not even Oil can override it


That is a good point.

Quote from: CT5Holy on September 04, 2016, 05:11:26 pm
Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.


I agree.  In fact, I was a bit surprised to see MA*8 in the new formula for Bizen Boat.

For the sake of argument, is anyone comfortable with the idea of turning 1/3 of MP into Three Stars, a support ability (named after its appearance in Final Fantasies VI and X) which reduces the MP cost of all spells to 1?  Even with 1/3 of MP, units with low MP pools (e.g., Archer, Paladin, Thief) still expend their entire base MP bar after three or four casts of reasonably expensive magic (e.g., Raise 2, Demi 2, Paralyze).  Consequently, these classes must nevertheless equip at least one piece of MP equipment, usually Golden Hairpin or a robe, for sustained spellcasting.  How much better would this support ability be if its application allows one to eschew MP equipment entirely?

Perhaps a little. Think of it like this: Attack UP usually boosts PA by 3~4.  This allows players to equip their units with armor other than Twist Headband and Power Sleeve while maintaining the same effective PA.  By the same token, Three Stars will allow players to equip their low-MP units with armor other than Golden Hairpin/robes.  Thus, Three Stars and Attack UP become more comparable in potency at the design stage.

Nevertheless, Three Stars has its downside in battle, and thus is yet less potent than Attack UP.  By eschewing MP equipment with Three Stars, one becomes extremely vulnerable to MP damage; for example, a single tap of a Mage Masher by a feeble Wizard will nearly burn the entire MP bar of a 19 MP Thief.  And since Three Stars does not completely remove MP cost, such MP damage can still disrupt spell casting.  This downside also applies to those scheming to pair MP Switch and Three Stars together: Block a big hit with MP Switch and you'll still lose a turn recovering lost MP, Three Stars be damned.

dw6561

When I said that I didn't mean that golden hairpin changed, I was referring to the suggestion for it to half holy/dark. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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silentkaster

September 05, 2016, 06:10:28 pm #57 Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 06:29:22 pm by silentkaster
Okay, here are my thoughts on some stuff that I see proposed. I've only commented on stuff I'm not mostly indifferent on, or that I don't agree with. I kinda went in order of Gaignun's post as the document I had was at work. To be clear, if I haven't commented, it means I'm neutral or in agreement with the change (or my level of agreement/disagreement isn't too significant at the present moment.)


Totally against this. This adds an element of randomness to the game and there are so many ways around C-EV that we often don't even see it come into play at all during a match. I understand this was proposed for consistency and for elemental absorb teams so that attacks don't miss on team mates, but we balanced this last patch with elemental absorb teams taking a lot of fore-front and while I'm okay with that, it doesn't mean they shouldn't have to account for their own weakness or randomness.  Evasion is already unreliable as it is since there is no guarantee you'll even block the smallest of percentages, and there are plenty of ways around it. Therefore, I'm not interested in seeing this element of randomness go away.


I had previously suggested that Bards/Dancers just be made into one job and become Performer, and still behind this. I was told at the time that there would be some issues with the Bags/Harps, since all of a sudden they could equip each other's weapons (the male and female) but if they keep the same stats, that doesn't matter much. At least the logistics, anyway. If this for some reason can't be done, then Dancers gaining one PA (hell, even two) would be okay with me.


The reason this was suggested is because this is a skill that keeps the AI in the game. I've heard a lot of talk that people are saying "We don't need two items that give Regen in the game" but I have to disagree, and I'd argue that if changing P Bag, we need the Regen to move to an accessory. The thing about Regen is that it keeps the AI in the game. As players, we don't pay attention to this much but the reason that people are so Move-HP UP and Regen happy is because without it, the AI will go in critical and run. If they have no way to heal themselves, they'll stay in the corner while the enemy team picks them apart. It's not always easy to get Auto Regen or a healing ability on each unit, so my thought here was to add Recover to Basic Skill where the AI can only use it in critical. If this is the case, then the AI will at least be able to come back into the fight even if they waste one turn. Unlike Nurse where the AI will spam it and use it all the time, this only gives them HP when in critical and doesn't give Defending or Regen. Still, if Light Robe or P Bag needs to lose Regen, then we need to introduce something to make up for it. We do have additional Clothing spots and it can be added to an accessory as well if Light Robe or P Bag loses it.


I think it should be 15 MA and Holy should mirror. I didn't even realize this change (Dark Holy being nerfed) was passed for 1.4a and was annoyed that it had, but it's an unbrave nuke. It's on Black Magic, which is the only skillset that uses UnBrave calculation, it's slow to cast, and it is evadable to boot. I think the numbers of how many people used it in the tournament kinda justifies its need to be at least 15 MA. Black Magic, unlike Item (which we'll get to shortly) or Masamune, isn't a skillset you can just slap on any character you want. You still need to build for it.


I'm gonna but this all together and here we go.

Many people are coming up with a lot of reasons that White Magic should be nerfed. While I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, I'm getting the notion that "White Magic is unequivocally better than Item." This is simply not true. Here's why:

Item Benefits:
1. Does not require Faith or Brave on either unit to work.
2. Use up to 99 times of each item.
3. All abilities are instant.
4. Can currently cure all status ailments except Charm, Death Sentence, Faith, Innocent and Slow.
5. Does not require MP to work.
6. Items (with very rare exceptions that have weird height issues like Golgorand or Inside Windmill shed) never miss.

Item Drawbacks:
1. Can only heal or effect one unit at a time.
2. Can only use right next to you or on yourself unless you have Throw Item or are a Chemist.
3. Revival option is with minimal HP and Healing Options are for set amounts.
4. Can only, at the most, cure two status ailments at once.
5. Does not have any offensive moves in the skillset.
6. Must purchase each item individually with JP.

White Magic benefits:
1. Has access to two very powerful revival abilities that no other skillset can compare to in this department.
2. Has access to Dia and Holy, two offensive skills.
3. Has access to several Cure spells for different levels, one of which is instant.
4. Has access to several other support abilities which can buff allies.
5. Status Curing is AOE.
6. Healing is AOE.
7. Can be built so healing amounts are very strong.
8. JP can be conserved by buying certain abilities.

White Magic drawbacks:
1. Requires high faith in order to use to maximum effectiveness.
2. Even with high faith, requires compat stacking and/or increasing other teammates' faith, and still may not hit target.
3. Requires charge time for every ability except Wall and Cure.
4. Cannot cure Stop, Undead, Death Sentence, Slow, Innocent, Faith, Oil or Berserk.
5. Requires MP for every ability and, in most match ups, MP Restoration.
6. Some spells cannot be used to good effectiveness on low MA units.
7. Most abilities are reflectable and offensive abilities are also evadable.
8. Most "useful" reactions, supports and movements are on other skillsets.

There may be more, to each skillset that you can think of, but these are what have been mostly mentioned.

Now, how can you say that one skillset is superior to the other? One is constant and can be given to pretty much any unit. The other must be built for to a degree, but can lead to higher payoffs and rewards. If we look at this tournament, White Magic is number one for most popular skillset, where Item is number two. So clearly, people see the value in both.

So to balance Item, even though I'm not entirely convinced that it needs any of this, I've seen a few proposals. Here are mine.

1. Give item a damaging ability instead of a "random buff" type of item. I think the AI would be pretty dumb with that, whereas it would be consistent about using, "Pain Pills" giving random damage to the enemy or something (perhaps anywhere from 10-50% of target's HP or so to keep it so that stats aren't needed), and "Slow Potion" where it inflicts "Slow" or "Stop" on any unit that's hasted. (This would encourage teams to not auto use Haste as a side note.)

2. When adding Charm to an item, remove it from Esuna. It makes sense for Monks to have it with Stigma Magic to instantly cure themselves, but a White Magic user must actually charge up and do it, which makes less sense since they're proactively acting on the fact that they're charmed.

3. Lower the JP costs of some/all items making them easier to get.

Still, I can agree with Holy moving to Black Magic. It's a nuke spell and makes really strong support units. So I'm okay with it moving to Black Magic.

However, I'm not okay with Raise 2 receiving such a small nerf. Most people look at this and say, "It's 1%. That's no big deal." However, three reasons I have against this are:

1. When turning to a 99% raise, units will look at themselves as injured. Therefore, "reacting" to the injury could happen. For example, units with Nurse or Iron Will will now possibly use these abilities instead of going on the offensive. This gives less predictability when making teams and while that can be looked at as good, I'm not convinced because those who buy Raise 2 are doing so with the express purpose of restoring a unit to full. Also, as a side note, it is possible that on low HP units, that "1%" could be the difference between a spell gun (or something) one shotting them and not one shotting them. Rare, but can happen.

2. Raise 2 is fairly inaccurate. Many people go with Raise 1 simply due to the fact that they can run a 40 faith unit and not worry about Raise 1 missing, or have much better odds at the very least.

3. Cursed Ring units now have a much bigger reaction known as HP Restore to rely upon.

Because of these three reasons, I have 10 suggestions that I would rather see happen than Raise 2 lose 1% because of a singular accessory.

1. Make Raise 2 evadable (wouldn't matter for dead units presumably since they shouldn't be able to evade.) Then, give Cursed Ring a small amount of M-Ev.
2. Add Initial: Reflect to Cursed Ring (Fire weakness and it simply being initially reflectable instead of "always" reflect would still make Consecration and Seal Evil worth carrying, while giving Reflect Ring its purpose still.)
3. Cursed Ring has received two debuffs since 1.38 where it ran rampant. So simply give Cursed Ring its 100% revival back, or increase it at least to 75%.
4. With Speed Stacking presumably getting nerfed, give Cursed Ring +2 Speed and turn Sprint Shoes into something else. (Now you have Hyper Wrist where you're always poisoned or Cursed Ring where you're always Undead.)
5. Take away Cursed Ring's "Always: Undead" and instead, simply make it Immune: Crystal. Now the ally won't be undead, but he won't come back to life until revived by an ally. (Note that by making it Immune: Crystal, the unit would just stay dead until revived. I proposed a similar accessory before and I was told it was unbalanced to Arena. I'm still unsure why since if the unit just stays dead, it doesn't matter if he/she never crystallizes.)
6. Take away Cursed Ring's Fire weakness.
7. Give Cursed Ring Initial: Innocent.
8. Give Cursed Ring Always: Regen (This relates to what I said earlier with nixing Light Robe or P-Bag.
9. Increase the JP/MP cost of Raise, Raise 2 and Esuna (I know that I'm making arguments for Cursed Ring, but I'm going to explain this later in the post.)
10. I think we can tie Reactions to an item, right? Give it a reaction where when the ability Raise 2 misses, it then targets that unit with Heretic.

Now, the reason I had talked about increasing the JP/MP cost of all three of these abilities is that because when I look at LOH, it uses a similar formula to Raise, but costs a whopping 250 JP but has the same result. I admit I missed comparing these two, so I think Raise should at least be raised to 200, and I wouldn't mind seeing Esuna become 250 or 300 where Raise 2 becomes 400. These abilities are easy to grab. The infamous Move-MP, Short Charge, Raise 2/Esuna combo is already limiting for most jobs, so it would just limit the other abilities or reactions these jobs could carry even more. This in turn would buff Cursed Ring on that part alone.

Consecration can certainly gain accuracy and a JP cost reduction. I don't like 100%, but wouldn't mind some proposals of increasing it.

Finally, Cure 4 just seems a little too strong to me. It's a very short heal, unreflectable and pretty potent. I'm not as adamant about that as I am about other things, but would like to see it change a bit.

There's probably more, but I'm gonna leave it at that for now.


Again, I'd rather see a weapon, accessory, or something that simply grants Immune: Crystal than this. It doesn't need to grant Reraise, but simply make it so that either Stars appear above the dead unit's head (like in Vanilla) or when the countdown hits zero, it simply skips that unit's turn and resets the counter. This is a neat idea but with so many other Support abilities, I just feel an equippable item would be better.


Barren, I'm aware that you don't like the idea of this passing through walls, but it sounds like you're mostly opposed to it because of the logistics of the idea and not the ability itself. If that is right, can we compromise? Could we have it go back to the way it was, but simply name it something else like "Telekinesis" or "PsyBlade" or something? This way, it can perhaps use a different animation or something, but the ability would be reverted and I think it would make most parties happy. Please let me know if that suggestion would suit you.


Berserk? Sure. Slow? No. Haste can cure Slow and I'm even reluctant about an item being able to do that (but more okay with it than Stigma Magic). However, since Stigma Magic technically lose Silence and they obviously can't cure Berserk on themselves, I'm okay with Stigma Magic picking it up.


Agreed with Gaignun, here. I think that this is useful and not easily grabbed for most skillsets that need or want it. Therefore, I think it should remain at 400 JP.


I don't think it should change either. It's one of those options that is there for specific builds.


I suggested removing Haste 2/Slow 2 initially simply because lots of people had issues with it and just having them Haste/Slow with combined properties. However, why don't we just reverse the accuracies? Make the Haste2/Slow 2 cover more ground but less accurate and Haste/Slow cover less ground with slightly more accuracy, but be reflectable and evadable (obviously Haste wouldn't be evadable, but still reflectable.)


I'd want to know if the AI would "know" that they could do this. Attacking from the back is already more solid due to evasion being less effective in the back so just a bit curious about this.


Gaignun, would you rather this be Add: Dead perhaps at a 20% proc?


My vote is to reduce proc rate. Never noticed it was 100% until it was pointed out to me. (And that's my bad.)


I had, and still hold to, my proposals of three flat damage spells. I had said Balance, Life Drain and Demi initially, but was convinced to go with Ultima (since the Ultima Power cannot be boosted with moves like Pilgrimage and is non elemental) in place of Life Drain. These are not OP at all and I could even see them being reverted back to one handed. The weapon I have the most grudge with is Stone Gun and it's because I still find it pretty weak.


Still gotta say no, not in favor of this. I think one of the drawbacks of having 2S is to be forced to get close to your enemy and while I understand its WP is extremely weak, this would be used just for utility purposes which in my opinion, still makes it kinda meh.


I'm still in support of this. It could be similar to how it is applied in JOT5 or Chakra where it's 1/8 and then half of that for MP. This makes it so that it still kinda interferes with a Move-MP UP unit (if they're casting each turn, even Move-MP up won't be enough to combat the slow degeneration of Poison) while not providing quite enough to sustain MP without some other method. This is where it should be in my opinion...as a nuisance/light benefit but not the complete answer.


While I don't mind Scholars picking up Helmets and losing Hats (or even keeping hats as an option, doesn't bother me either way), I don't like Time Mages losing shields, especially since I like the swap Time Mage/Summoner HP. Having a ten speed, yet most frail unit in Arena doesn't sit right with me, and many of their innate abilities, particularly Haste and Sinkhole, tend to work best when moving last. Even nine speed can sometimes be a hindrance, though not nearly as often. I don't think a Scholar needs a Shield, especially if picking up Regen/Poison. I'd be more in favor of a further HP buff, perhaps moving up to where Thieves are, and picking up the choice of Helmets or Hats.


Edit: I had written "20" instead of "10" by mistake above.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Shintroy

Quote from: Andrew on September 04, 2016, 04:35:10 pm
I give up.

Still requesting an accurate team building spreadsheet without netherseer.
Some day my people will be free.

Gaignun

September 07, 2016, 04:55:49 am #59 Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 06:39:09 am by Gaignun
Glad to hear your input, silentkaster.

Merging Dancerbards: I don't mind merging the two jobs, nor allowing them to equip each other's weapons.  However, unless the algorithm which determines the stats of each sex has been unraveled, I don't believe we will be able to maintain 12 PA on female dancerbards, 8 PA on male dancerbards, etc.

Recover on Squires: I understand the need to keep units out of critical.  I only wish we can create something that isn't a handicapped version of Nurse.  Otherwise, what is stopping us from giving a recover skill to every job?

Shuriken: If it isn't any trouble, why don't we have the skill throw a series of 4 shurikens?  This way we keep the damage of 1.39 Shuriken, but prevent targeting through walls.

Haste/Slow: How about swapping the accuracies of only Slow and Slow 2?  The accuracy of Haste 2 isn't really a problem.

Bow Gun: Yeah, 20% Add: Dead is fine.  25% Add: Dead is even better.

10 SP Time Mages: 10 SP allows a Time Mage to cast 2 CT spells before 8 SP units get their first turn.  This is great for applying Haste before the 8 SP units disperse from their starting positions.  As for Sinkhole, it isn't much better on 9 SP Time Mages either.  Sinkhole works truly best on 8 SP units against other 8 SP units.

Scholar equipment: In the event that scholars get shields, I would prefer they lose hat access in order to prevent stacking the MA of Aegis Shield and Holy Miter.

Item and White Magic: I can't speak for others, but I don't think White Magic is unequivocally better than Item.  As you mentioned, Item can restore Berserk, Undead, and Stop.  However, aside from those ailments, White Magic is unequivocally more potent than Item.  For the significant cost of running a high-faith team, Cure 1 beats X-Potion and Raise 2 beats Phoenix Down hands down.

New skills on Item: Given the versatility of White Magic, which consists of a mixture of offensive and defensive skills, I am reluctant to the idea of putting offensive skills (damage or status) on Item.  A damage skill in particular will likely be overlooked by the AI, as Item users typically have other, more effective means of dealing single-target damage.  I think reducing the JP cost of status healing, and perhaps introducing an improved form of Phoenix Down, will be enough.

Cursed Ring: Cursed Ring was OP in 1.38 precisely because of its SP boost, which has never been nerfed.  Players would make 10~12 SP units with Cursed Ring, so while you attempt to finish off the rest of the team, the Cursed Ring units chew through the countdown clock, auto-revive, and get a free turn.  For this reason, giving Cursed Ring an extra point of SP and/or increasing the revival chance is a step backward in my opinion.  Removing its Fire weakness is OK, though.

Making Raise 2 evadeable: I believe this would also make friendly units evade their own Raise 2.

Edit: Cursed Ring Suggestion: Remove Weak: Fire and Always: Undead. Add Always: Poison and Immune: Regen.  We might as well remove Hyper Wrist from the game at the same time, since this form of Cursed Ring will be superior.  Not sure how popular this suggestion will be.