Archer skillset and archer in general

[logus]

Ok, let's try to address this problem here. Archer skillset is useless, we all know it. When I was imagining the archer's concept (rather, trying to copy stuff from D&D and other famous rpgs, actually ), some ideas came to my mind. Here we go:

-Archers shouldn't be able to equip a shield. In any rpg, even when using a crossbow, they have at tops a "buckler", which is a small shield used in the arm, but not a full-fledged shield. We can improve them in other areas to make up for the lack of a shield I believe, because creating a new subset of shields to cover for this would be too much work.

-Using a crossbow usually takes 2 hands to be done properly, which supports the above. There are special cases where you got smaller crossbows to be used on both hands, but these would do way less damage than the average crossbow.

-Taking D&D as an example, we can see some feats that could describe what would eventually be skills:
 Doubleshot = shoots two arrows at target, with slightly lower precision/damage per arrow.
 Far shot = Shoots an arrow with greater range (thinking weapon's range+2 for now), with slightly lower precision/damage
 Focused shot = shoots an arrow that never misses, with smaller range (I'm thinking (weapon's range - 1) for now)
 Arm Aim = same as we have now. It's still useful.
 Leg Aim = ^

ps: when I say "slightly slower precision/damage", I'm thinking about -10% hit and -1/2 (pa) or (pa+sp) applied to the damage calculation

if we do allow 2 swords to use 2 crossbows, focused shot creates versatilityfor the AI, as it can try for a sure-fire damage (iirc, skills will only use the right hand's weapon) or try for double damage with the crossbows. Although I'm still against using 2 crossbows =s.

As for the weapons, with such ideas, we will obviously need an overhaul. Without a shield, crossbows become a much less viable option for a lot of classes that need to abuse shield. But that's the only reason no one even cares to use bows, as bows will hinder your damage due to sp+pa/2 formula and will strip you the ability to have a shield.

Do the skills and general ideas sound right or am I totally off? o_O

[Skip Sandwich]

Some personal ideas of mine, these should all be 100% patcher compatible

Flaming Arrow: Deals PA * WP fire element damage at weapon range, mp cost 4

Oil Bolt: Inflicts Oil status at 60 + Sp% chance, weapon range

Warning Shot: deals no damage, but may reset target's CT to 00, weapon range

Signal Whistle: a loud and sharp whistle, cancel: Sleep/Confusion/Charm for all units near the caster

Cover Fire: Deals random damage to units in an area, range 4, area 1v3, mp cost 8, persisting, ct 4, uses old Repeating Fist formula

[logus]

whoa, I love the cover fire idea. You just made into words what I had in mind, but couldn't express. Fire arrow seems good as well to combo with oil, but I can't exactly picture "oil bolt".. a guy gets covered in oil due to one bolt/arrow..? Seems like we'd better have skills that add oil in other skillsets...Signal Whistle and Warning Shot seemed fine to me though

[The Damned]

Oh, I like Cover Fire. A lot. Although of course it would need testing with the AI....

That said, I find rather...strange that none of the abilities from ASM'd were borrowed/taken if the Arena was so inspired by it.

This is the list that philsov is currently using:

Camoflague [sic] - Self only, add transparent
Leg Up - Self only, inflicts float at 100%.
Execute - Deals 21% HP damage to a unit in the critical status. Instant.
Poison Volley - Inflicts Poison to an AoE.
Oil Bomb - Inflict Oil to a single target
Fire Arrow - Fire-elemental weapon strike onto a single target, with an additional 25% for more fire magic funsies.
Aim - Deals WP*SP damage, unevadeable. Has synergy with two-swords.
Impact - Deals WP*PA damage and inflicts silence
Salve - Cleanses target various negative status, and heals for 20% health upon success.

Let's look at it ability-by-ability:

• Camouflage - I tested it three months ago and others have similarly confirmed that the AI simply won't use it. No.
• Leg Up - A new technique that must have been added during my downtime/lazy bastard hiatus. I can't imagine it being used much considering almost no one uses Float (even as an non-activated ability) as it is. Not sure.
• Execute - I never much liked this technique, but it's conditionally effective without being broken even if doesn't Archers IMO. Maybe.
• Poison Volley - Might as well just go the Beso Toxico route. Too bad there's no way to effectively make something lower than PA*WP while factoring in WP since then the computer (and people) would have no reason other than to spam Beso Toxico all the time. Just replace it with a single-target Poison arrow that does damage.
• Oil Bomb - The Oil hack isn't even used being used right now. So this is pointless. Even with the Oil hack.... No.
• Fire Arrow - Similarly, the elemental Knight Sword hack isn't being used, so this would cause the AI to make even dumber decisions, especially with additional elemental absorbing equipment around. No.
• Aim - I remember it being OP'd for the beginning of the game, but at level 35, it should be fine. Should be. Yes.
• Impact - No real problem with this outside of the aforementioned limitation I mentioned under Poison Volley. Yes.
• Salve - Depends on what regular statuses it gets rid of. Kind of have to compete with Heal and every single-target status cure is obviated by Remedy anyway. Maybe.

So, let's say that we take the three Engineering skills, Aim, Impact, Cover Fire, Beso Toxico, Flaming Arrow (provided both the Knightsword hack and the Oil hack [FDC's, the one that works] is used, then Fire Arrow and Oil Bomb should be combined anyway IMO) and maybe Salve (or Signal Whistle, though I can't think of a reason right now why an Archer would have a whistle; I trust Skip, though) and Execute. Would that be enough?

P.S. For the record, I'm pretty sure Far Shot isn't possible because what happens when you use the Weapon Range flag....

[FFMaster]

if we do allow 2 swords to use 2 crossbows, focused shot creates versatilityfor the AI, as it can try for a sure-fire damage (iirc, skills will only use the right hand's weapon) or try for double damage with the crossbows. Although I'm still against using 2 crossbows =s.

2 swords with crossbows is buggy. You can have a crossbow on right hand, and a sword on the left, and have crossbow range for all attacks, meaning the sword strike will also hit. That was the only reason I didn't allow it.

[PX_Timefordeath]

2 Swords with xbows can work, we just have to remove xbows from Squires. Then Archers are the only class that can wield 2 Swords and Crossbows.

[philsov]

That was the only reason I didn't allow it.

That's also the only reason -anything- ranged isn't allowed to be two-sworded by default, from spears to guns.

[logus]

I'd rather see squires with crossbows than archers with 2 crossbows. 2 crossbows is just conceptually wrong. You might slightly raise crossbow and bow WP to compensate for the lack of significant damage boost abilities , but I don't think it's really needed, as you got atk up and concentrate is THE one great ability to use with a ranged weapon (as you'll most likely be facing enemies' fronts when using ranged weapons).

edit: forgot about focused shot lols. That is, if we do get it for archers' skillset. I'd love to see it, so Atk UP gets some use (it's currently useless since 2-swords/2-handed just generates better damage output, and Def Up is just better with 70 br 40 fa).

[philsov]

Far shot = Shoots an arrow with greater range (thinking weapon's range+2 for now), with slightly lower precision/damage
Focused shot = shoots an arrow that never misses, with smaller range (I'm thinking (weapon's range - 1) for now)

Those are roughly do-able between both the ARH and fftpatcher, but the kicker is that we'd have to set range to be exact, which is great unless longbows go back to 5 in which case the whole thing kind of gets screwed.

Both abilities require either an xbow or longbow equipped:

Far shot = 5 range, deals SP*WP damage (ie, less), possible MP cost.
Focused shot = 3 range, deals SP*WP damage, unevadeable.  

Personally I'm all for expanding the skillset, and find greased bolt to be... eh.  Currently there's not enough undead to warrant Seal Evil (and its possible to have cursed ring + petrify immune), so they really could use more than just Leg and Arm aim.

imo in the arena setting they shouldn't get a poison attack (there's a bow that already does that), salve is possibly good but upstages Heal in the HP curing bit.  Fire arrow gets nixed because there's way too much elemental stuff floating around already.  Cover fire does sound good, though.

So... suggesting:

Aim/Focused Shot
Execute
Cover Fire
Impact

or variants thereof.

[logus]

actually when I had the idea for far shot I pictured it being used by longbows only. I don't think xbows need any more help in terms of range, as they are heavily outclassing bows in the other areas imo (2-hands available for greater power, which should be removed imo; ability to pack a shield; roughly the same weapon power; better formula for damage calculation; etc). Maybe make far shot for longbows only and make another skill xbow only for balance?

[Dokurider]

I don't see why we need to make Crossbows 2 Swordable when making them 2 Handable is just as good and less buggy.