FFT Arena: Discussion Thread (12/29/09)

[FFMaster]

Fast mages are horrible.  The worst possible opener would be for a mage to go before a melee goes, march into the middle of the field, charge some big ass spell, and then promptly die from the charging debuff.  

Not exactly. The 10 speed Haste caster with 9 speed team works quite well, removing the chance of the team splitting up. Also, if the mage has 3 move and the rest of the team has 4-5, the mage will still be behind.

[Jon]

Sounds promising. Try to keep all the weapons especially balanced, otherwise this might become either very strange or ridiculous. Zodiac's ideas are solid, stick with those for now. Here is a totally weird idea, why not give all abilities 0 JP cost and all jobs are unlocked, but the rules are no more than one type of unit (with abilities) each. I know what you all are probably thinking - don't take it wrong - but get rid of the 1 hit spells like Death and also Death-Sentence spells, and get rid of Summon/Draw Out all together. Then there may be somewhat of a tactical experience, otherwise we may get a bunch of 1 hit killers which to me seems lame. Just dumb ideas thrown in, don't take what I said too seriously...

[Zaen]

It's to try NOT to ban stuff. Basically, every spell, skill, buff, debuff, item, weapon, armor, shield, accessory and job will be rebalanced for a new AI tourney patch. Pure awesome, in other words.

As for Squire, maybe just turn it into a Mystic Knight of some sort. Also, if we're not including monsters, there's a ton of room open for new abilities, though possibly not.. can't remember what abilities are hardcoded, if any. Hell, we could even make more classes. This doesn't even need a job wheel. The possibilities are endless.

[LastingDawn]

Problem with that Zaen, it wouldn't be FFT anymore, there's a limit to what can be done and still call it "FFT:Arena"

[Zaen]

Well, it is a tournament patch. There's most likely going to be no job levels, just spend a small amount of JP to unlock a job. Also, during testing of monsters in AI teams, I've heard of them being a hindrance(I'll follow this up later). Since this is a PvP balance patch, there shouldn't be a "weaker" class, but good at each job's thing. Squire doesn't have much use since it has lower stats in every way compared to Geomancer. It also has a near worthless skillset that's overpowered by everything else in most situations. That being said, it's possible to add in a job or two. Since this won't be using special units and most likely monsters(followed up), there's some room for those possible jobs.

The only way it'd get out of character, would be for it to include Tekken characters or something. If any jobs would be added at all, they'd be from the FF universe.

[Samuraiblackbelt]

I think we'll be taking the job changes from 1.3, since that already did a pretty good job of balancing the classes

[PX_Timefordeath]

For squire, I propose that we give them the ability to equip armor, but not helmets, give them more hp, and give them Half: All elements or something like that. Turn them into tanks.

I did some changes and put them on the first post. Tell me what you think?

[Xifanie]

Honestly I don't think we should be playing with elemental resistance on non-mage jobs. Better equips and more abilities yes, but elemental resistance feels off.

[Zaen]

Quite honestly, the only job I could think of having resistances would be Priest, halving Dark. Maybe Sage could have one as well, but eh.

Resistance should remain in the equipment, because it makes choices more important and allows for more strategy in choice.

[Dokurider]

I had an idea on what to do with Katanas. What if we gave them 25% to cast their respective drawouts (except Muramasa, Masamune and Kiyomori obviously)?

[Zaen]

That could work, and those other 3 would just be compensated by an extra 10% evade on the 30% we'll most likely give them. They might also do slightly more damage on contact.

[woodenbandman]

Actually, I think being able to choose your own action abilities adds to the fun. It allows to build more specialized unit members and teams.

We talked about this patch a bit in chat; here's the idea. Implement the fury hack to change physical damage to 25+fury%. If you get the idea with a fury range of 40 to 70 (65%-95%), 40 vs 40 fury would deal 42% physical damage while 70 vs 70 fury would deal 90% physical damage. Sure the difference is not HUGE, but for a mage reducing physical damage to 65% can mean a lot...
Yes weapons and other physical abilities will deal less damage but faith based magic really needs the boost compared to physical attacks. And anyway it gives a reason to have low fury(brave) on a unit.
If we were to make spell cast 100% on hit, we could see real different setups. A mage could use its rod to cast a strong spell on a target, but of course since most warriors have lower faith than mages, the overall damage will be much greater against other mages. Coincidentally, warriors could benefit from having higher faith or MA to cast stronger, or higher % hit to hit, spells with their weapon.

That is a fascinating prospect.

But Draw Out would become suddenly WAAAAY more powerful. It'd have to become faith based.

EDIT: General ideas:

Global C-EV (100/75/50 or 100/50/25), Innate weapon guard, reduce evasion of shields and mantles slightly, have each of the various shields either:

Guard against a status(es)
Give a positive status.

Change power sleeves and thief hats, we'll be fine with just flash hats and judo outfits. Make various armors defend against elements and/or even add support abilities to you (Armor of defense up?) If possible make these come with side effects like "attack down" or "always slow" or something.

Make some male only equips and allow ribbons and perfumes in, maybe like a "jockstrap of power" or something that gives men powers when worn on their leg slot.

Ideas for specific items:

Defense armlet becoems Heretic's symbol: An accesory that grants always: Innocent. That means no enemy magic but also no haste, raise, or any healing, even from draw out.
Feather hat becomes red, grants innate fly and 2 points of movement. ~ + 40 HP
Clothes become fire overalls, grant 4 points of jump, strengthen/absorb fire, and give +1 MA. + 65 HP
Cotton Robe becomes emperor's new clothes, grants always: Transparent and always: defending. +0 HP.
Cachusha becomes beer hat, adds always: protect, shell, berserk, poison, haste, male only. +40 HP
Barette becomes monocle, adds innate concentrate, immune blind, confusion, silence, berserk, +2 MA, male only, + 20HP
Leather vest becomes jockstrap of power, adds initial: haste, innocent, +2 PA, +60 HP, male only.

Okay some of those are jokes, but they might work as items. I especially like Fire overalls.

[Xifanie]

No "buts". We can just nerf them, that's far from being a problem.

[woodenbandman]

Well I edited in some suggestions, some are jokes but they could work as real items.

[PX_Timefordeath]

Well this has fallen off the board. Change log of what I've done so far is in the first post, but there needs to be more suggestions on what to change!!!!

[Dokurider]

You want more suggestions? You got 'em: (Referencing 1.3)

1. How about Romanda Gun and Mythril Gun be brought up to 8 and 10 WP respectively, with Romanda Gun giving some kind of status, maybe poison?

2. In addition to my katana idea, Muramasa should heal on hit, Masamune give +1 speed and Kiyomori...initial: Protect and Shell sound too painful? Perhaps initial: regen instead? Status immunity to something? I don't know.

3. Some Sword suggestions:
Rune Blade, 12 WP, +2 MA
Ice Brand, No Changes, 12 WP?
Platinum Sword, Various Status Immunities,
Ancient Sword, 12 WP
Sleep Sword, 12 WP
Blood Sword, No Changes
Coral Sword, 12 WP
Diamond Sword, Wind Element, 12 WP
Nagarock, no changes
Materia Blade, no changes
Mythril Sword, Doublestrike? +1 PA? Maybe other status immunities?
Long Sword, 14 WP
Broad Sword, More W-Ev

4. Take the Flail/Axe formula from ASM'D.

5. I think Defender should have more W-Ev, because I don't think those 10 extra points do enough to compare with  the other K swords.

6. Axes should be simple enough, leave the WP alone and just increase the W-Ev for the weaker Axes, 60/40/20 sound okay?

7. Assuming you are implementing the Flail/Axe hack, for Flails, Don't Act for Flail, Don't Move for Morning Star, and extra WP for Scorpion Tail?

8. Crossbows:

Bow Gun: 11 WP, Extra W-Ev
Night Killer: 11 WP, Add: Slow
Cross Bow: 11 WP, ??????
Arbalest: 11 WP, +1 PA
Hunting Bow: 11 WP, Range of 6
Gastrafitis: 12 WP

9. Bow suggestions:

Long Bow, 14 WP, More W-Ev
Silver Bow, 14 WP Element Holy?
Ice Bow, 14 WP
Windslash Bow, 14 WP
Mythril Bow, 14 WP, WP*WP formula
Ultimus Bow, 14 WP, Add: Dead
Yoichi Bow, 14 WP, Range of 6
Perseus Bow, 16 WP

10. Harps: ??????

11. Cloths: lol good luck

12. Books: Just standardize the WP and it should be okay.

13. Sticks:

Cypress Rod, 12 WP, More W-Ev
Battle Bamboo, 12 WP, Double Strike?
Musk Rod, 12 WP, Water Elemental
Iron Fan, 12 WP, Earth Elemental
Gokuu Rod, 10 WP, Always: Innocent?
Octagon Rod, no changes
Ivory Rod, Add: Undead
Whale Whisker: 14 WP

14. Spears:

Javelin, 14 WP, More W-Ev
Spear, 14 WP, Add: Jump?
Mythril Spear, 14 WP, Status Immunities
Partisan, 14 WP, Double Strike
Oberisk, 14 WP, Add: Confuse
Holy Lance, No changes
Dragon Whisker, 16 WP
Javelin 2, 18 WP, only one.

15. Knives, just give them all various statuses to add, maybe make one WP*WP, and that should do it.

16. Ninja Swords:

Hidden Knife, 12 WP, More W-Ev
Ninja Knife, 10 WP, Double Strike?
Short Edge, 12 WP, Add; Berserk
Ninja Edge, 12 WP, Add: Confuse
Spell Edge, 12 WP, No changes
Sasuke Knives, 14 WP,
Iga and Koga Knives,  12 WP, No other changes.

That's it for weapons for now.

[Zaen]

You could make a cool alternative for gun users. A weaker gun with 5 WP, but that can have Two Swords. It could also grant +1 Speed per gun, to balance out for weaker damage output.

I like the double strike being added to more weapons, it makes them a viable alternative. Thing is, the WP seem to be very close to each other.
Partisan should have less WP, like 11.
Ninja Knife should have 9 WP.
Bamboo Rod should have 10.
Mythril Bow should have quite a bit less if it's WP*WP. Maybe... 10, 11, or 12.
Arbalest should get 10 WP if it adds PA.
Crossbow could have 12 WP and 5 Range. They usually have 4, so Hunting Bow would still have a purpose, giving 6.
Axes should not have scaled evasion. Maybe 45 Ev with 11 WP, then 30 with 14, then 17 with 15.
Maybe instead of Confuse, the Oberisk or the Ninja Edge could add poison.
Harps could be like buff appliers.
Cloths could be dual status inflicters.

These below are casual suggestions, and obviously haven't had a large amount of thought put into them.
Defender: 50 W-EV, rest 30 W-EV.
Make Knight Swords have less OP effects. Defender gets 14 WP. Maybe make Excalibur be 2nd strongest, with 18 WP and +2 PA while Chaos Blade has 19 with +1 SP. Save the Queen could retain initial Protect at 16 WP, while Ragnarok could be 17 with +2 SP, initial Slow and Regen.

[woodenbandman]

That ragnarok you propose is clearly more powerful than any of the others. Also, similar WPs is boring, bring on the fun effects!

I don't think that knight swords (except excalibur) are particularly unbalanced. I say that the lack of the shield or the lack of 2 hands makes up for it. Samurai are, after all, still pretty much the be-all end-all physical unit. them and monks. Although, if universal C-Ev and weapon guard is implemented (hint hint, we've already been shown it works in the AI tournament), reduced W-EV is probably the best thing. Furthermore, increasing WP grants diminishing returns. Sure, 169 damage is better than 153 damage, but how much better is 500 damage than 487 damage? How much is one more measure of PA worth? How much will you care that your oracle hit for 30 more damage when it still takes 3 actions from your team to kill the knight? Interesting effects are key! going lower is a greater bane than going higher is of a boon.

more suggestions:

Guns:

romanda gun becomes machine gun, Range 5 8 WP, 1-4 hits
Mythril gun becomes shotgun, Range 3, WP 10, AoE 2, up to 6 hits
Stone Gun: Becomes mortar, Range 10, WP 10, AoE 3 cast Asura (Rafa's asura, using WP as MA, up to 10 hits) (adjust WP to make it just slightly weaker than a shotgun bullet hit).
Blaze Gun: Becomes B.B. gun, casts 60% Blind/30% berserk/10% sleep (as beowulf's magic sword or Oracle's spells)
Blast Gun: Becomes Tazer, casts 60% Don't Move, 30% Don't Act, 10% Galaxy Stop
Glacier Gun becomes sniper rifle, Range 9, cast death, or maybe make it Demi2/Gravi2/Death (it still would have to hit from the faith percentage).

Knives:
Bring back Main Gauche's high w-ev, and mage masher's silence.

Sticks:
Stick 1: 10 WP, deals MP damage, silence proc
Gokuu Rod: Always innocent, add innocent (niche uses)
Battle Bamboo: 12 WP, 25% power break proc
Musk Rod: 12 WP, 25% confuse
Octagon Rod: WP 4, PA x WP formula, same effect.
Whale Whisker: Same as-is

Crossbows: EDITED

Bow Gun becomes paper crossbow, ignores evasion (nobody would suspect you to kill them with a crossbow made of paper), WP 10
Night Killer becomes darkness elemental, absorbs dark, strengthens dark, WP 11, kotetsu proc instead of doubleshot
Cross Bow WP 12, best weapon evasion
Arbalest: range 7, no doublestrike. WP ~ 10
Hunting Bow becomes hand crossbow, 8 WP, 2 swords, allow ninjas to equip crossbow (whether or not the keep their innate 2 swords).
Gastrafitis: Range 5 WP 16, decent weapon evasion, 2 hands (the most powerful crossbow, unusually big gives a huge reaction)

Armor:
Maximilain becomes heavy plate, -1(maybe 2) speed, all other stats the same as in 1.3
Carabini, crystal, reflect mails all unchanged
Leather armor becomes recon armor, +2 move, +1 speed, HP + 50
Linen Curiass becomes Spiked Armor, all attacks against wearer cause damage as per the amount of damage a steel giant takes when using Dispose, HP + 110. If that's impossible (it doesn't sound too impossible), have it give the wearer innate damage split.
Bronze Armor becomes Mage Armor, MA + 2, HP + 100, MP + 80
Chain Mail becomes berserker armor, gives +2 PA, Initial haste and berserk, +160 HP
Plate Mail becomes Dragoon mail, gives +3 Jump and innate any ground/move on lava, HP + 130
Platina Armor: Immune don't move, don't act, slow, poison, stop HP + 110
Gold Armor: absorb and strengthen holy, immune dead, initial reraise
Genji Armor: Reduce HP to + 100

Helmets:
Platina Helmet: Immune Blind, Berserk, Silence, Sleep, Charm, blood suck, same HP

Shields:
Platina Shield: Immune invite, undead, petrify, dead, same stats

Swords:
Platina Sword: Immune chicken, Confusion, Frog, Anything else platina shield, helmet, and armor missed

Spears:

Javelin becomes lance, 2 hands range 3, effect line (range 3 line like earth slash), vert 4, WP 12
Javelin 2: -1 speed, 18 WP, 2 hands
Spear Becomes battle standard, EDIT: MA x WP formula 10 WP, heals on hit, add random positive status (but note that it still works with jump)
Mythril spear 10 WP +1 speed
Partisan 12 WP 100% knockback (if possible)
Oberisk: 14 WP
Dragon Whisker: WP 12, Absorb: fire, ice, lightning, holy

thats all i got

[Zaen]

Yeah... Save the Queen could use +1-2 MA, and I figured Ragnarok was a little too strong. It's just hard to balance out stuff. Maybe +1 PA and +1 SP?

The guns seem nearly impossible with ranked % chance, unless you mean that those status effects take the spot of Fire/Ice/Bolt in the spells list. that's how Blaze/Glacier/Blast guns work. Also, we have to remember that this is a Medieval time period, so the gun changes seem rather out of place, with swords and such around.

As for crossbow ideas, Ninja doesn't need that. It has Throw. Paper Crossbow is far to powerful for being paper. I guess Night killer could do that, even though the correct translation was Knight Killer.. like that matters.

Some small things I've noticed are armor and weapon ideas that are impossible, like the Spike armor idea, even with Damage Split. Armor and weapons can't give reactions. Also, it's impossible to make equipment lower stats. If you do that, you'd need to make everything GIVE speed from that slot. I tested it out personally, and it severely cripples those classes using heavier armor, no matter the HP. Knockback also can't be changed with weapons, and heal on hit is 100% chance.

The thing is, there's such a thing as too little special effects and too many. Somewhere between similar WP with a few status effects and extremely varying WP and status effects is the best bet, and probably more towards the first. Too much variation is just gonna cause problems for actually balancing the classes.

[woodenbandman]

Good points, it's easy to get carried away with this. I did mean for the gun abilities to take the place of fire/ice/lightning from the spell guns. the problem is there's only so much you can do with the existing status effects. It's either a variety of options that matter, or a variety of options that don't.