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Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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  • [August 24, 2016, 05:20:07 AM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2016, 05:20:07 AM »
My input:

Ultima formula change

Cure 4 formula changing to max(PA,MA)*15

METEORologist-in-training
Reks [Posts: 682]
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  • [August 24, 2016, 06:58:10 AM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2016, 06:58:10 AM »
By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.

My main point is that yeah, it's still underwhelming compared to other skills. The smart-targeting aspect improved it greatly, but there's still room for that last push to making it great - Right now it's still an undesirable choice.

Not so much being on Basic Skill that makes it underpowered, far from it. Rather, I'd like to see anyone able to pick up Basic Skill and being able to use it with a broader setup, which the Max of PA/MA would allow, and would let Ultima Blade become super good in the right hands.
Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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  • [September 03, 2016, 04:14:48 PM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2016, 04:14:48 PM »
My input to the suggestion list uploaded by silentkaster on 1 September.  There are a ton of suggestions in this list, so I will break up my comments with spoiler tags.  Most comments of my own proposals are omitted.

2016.09.01 Suggestions


And finally, the most dreaded content of all

In the words of James Brown, "Good God!" This was a long post.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 04:40:48 PM by Gaignun »
Back and Eventing. (Slowly)
gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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  • [September 03, 2016, 11:07:22 PM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2016, 11:07:22 PM »
Why we will never give another Mage a Shield.

So long as Aegis Shield exists, you can not give another Mage Aegis shield. TM are only MA 9. On any Damaging Build they automatically go to 10 MA, get 30% M-Ev and 5% P-Ev.

This is fine on Time Mage, it puts them in line with White Mages and gives them a Evasion Edge. Other Mages innately start with a Better MA, more weapons and a more supportive or Damaging skillset. The Time Mage on the other hand, is a fifty/fifty skillset on support and disruption. They are not in and other themselves game winners, beyond Haste/Slow/Stop, which other skillsets do well and only Archers do it with Shields.

IF another mages gains shields they gain a free point of MA and a Free 30% M-Ev. I don't want Wizards getting any more power, and they are the least likely to get shields. However, a White Mage and Oracle now equals a Summoner and Summoner and Scholar equal a Black Mage with a free 30% M-Ev. If you nerf their MA, everyone who wants a damage mage will now have to Auto Equip Aegis Shield and you must commit to killing them with Physical Evasion, or Unevadeables. You can't punish people who don't want to build a Evasive, Magic User, by reducing their damage dealing.

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    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 12:51:27 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #44 on: September 04, 2016, 12:51:27 AM »

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    gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 01:31:25 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #45 on: September 04, 2016, 01:31:25 AM »
    On Float... If Float blocked Earth skills but not Earth Weapons I am ok with it. Earth skills roughly number 5. (Kiku, Quake, Earth Slash, Titan, Geomancies.) (I may have missed one.) Blocking all of those and then blocking all Earth-modified Weapons Skill including Grand and Southern Cross... That sucks. But then you take away the Giant Axe's ability to hit you. You remove Kiku, you remove any future earth weapon from the Equation... That sucks... In my opinion, leaving Float, and allowing to block Earth Skills should come at a cost. Weakness to (Wind or Lightning weapons and abilities.) or Earth Weapons... This would mean that when your floating your protected from Earth Dragon, Earth Slash, ect... But you do have a trade off. However small.

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    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 05:30:25 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #46 on: September 04, 2016, 05:30:25 PM »
    Back and Eventing. (Slowly)
    gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 05:51:35 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #47 on: September 04, 2016, 05:51:35 PM »
    @Float.

    With Andrew's idea of reworking Elemental clothes, I'd be ok with float being Removed altogether as a human option and only being something monsters can use in the future. Removing a point of MA off Diamond Armlet and reworking the clothes set to be more comprehensive on elemental absorb is a nice start. The proposed rework to Golden Hairpin, means that monk will lose elemental strengthening outside of 108 gems. I am completely ok with this, as Monks still have Chakra band.

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    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 06:23:41 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #48 on: September 04, 2016, 06:23:41 PM »
    Merging Poison/Regen: Roger. I did not realise we would merge Regen and Refresh as well.  I have one concern: Hawk Eye and Scorpion Tail do big damage while incidentally applying Poison at a high rate.  If Poison turns into a mage killer, then something about these things might be in need of an adjustment.

    Concerning Scorpion Tail, if this weapon remains unchanged, can we remove Flail access from Ninja?. When patch 1.40 reverted Scorpion Tail to 12 WP, Scorpion Tail's damage was boosted by 25% on Ninja with Attack Up.  These Ninja are hitting 40 Br units for over 300 damage without stacking a single point of PA.  Keep an eye on True Light's Ninja in the present tournament to see what I mean.

    Since the Refresh flag has turned out to be an excellent method for coaxing the AI to use spells proactively, why not add it to Protect and Shell?  That way the AI will open battles with these spells as they ought to.  Wall can remain as a reactionary spell for the sake of variation.

    Haste/Slow 2: Why not remove smart targeting and let the spells ocassionally backfire?  To use Slow 2, one's frontline units will require Slow immunity to avoid friendly fire.

    Mages and shields: To clarify, I am suggesting we give Scholars shields in place of Time Mages.  Time Mages would receive 10 SP and become the Thieves of the magic world. Scholars would lose base MA so that they do not become Wizards with free EV.

    Aegis Shield is a problem of its own.  It has been the most powerful all-purpose shield for mages ever since Venetian Shield became Swift Plate years ago.  I actually wanted to propose changes to Aegis Shield as well as Genji Shield in my previous post, but ran out of energy before writing them down.  Here they are:

    Aegis Shield: 0 PEv, 25 MEv, +1 MA, Innocent immunity (partially subsumes Secular Shield)
    Genji Shield: 25 PEv, 0 MEv, +1 PA, Darkness immunity

    The Genji Shield change incidentally opens up the accessory slot for light armoured Grand Cross users (i.e. Squire and Geomancer).

    Float: I cannot say anything at the moment about killing Float and shuffling around elemental absorptions because I am struggling to comprehend the arguments.  However, I can say that Earth elemental weapons do indeed ignore Float.  I recall seeing Earth elemental Grand Crosses hitting floating Time Mages while preparing for the present tournament.

    Geomancy: Non-elemental Geomancy still pushes 150 according to its formula.  That's comparable to Draw Out.  It is mainly this non-elemental damage that I am concerned about, as there is no way to protect oneself from it other than with Shell.  Would it be agreeable if we gave all non-elemental geomancy an element and dropped their formula constants to 2?  That way geomancy fans can still deal high damage, while victims can protect themselves better with clothes, the above-proposed Elementalist movement ability, etc.
    « Last Edit: September 04, 2016, 06:49:44 PM by Gaignun »
    :D
    CT5Holy [Posts: 1104]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 06:56:23 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #49 on: September 04, 2016, 06:56:23 PM »
    I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

    I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.

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    Barren [Posts: 2544]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 07:39:26 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #50 on: September 04, 2016, 07:39:26 PM »
    I'm hoping for changes 2 or 3 for the shuriken formula (based off the suggestions Andrew sent me) because it does need a damage buff.

    If we have to revert it back to 1.39, my only condition is that it doesn't phase through walls. Because if you were to hire a assassin let's say to come to someone's house and kill them, would they try to throw a shuriken throw a brick wall and hope it hits the target? Just think about how stupid the assassin would be for trying.

    Anyhow, shuriken should still feel like it's a fresh addition to 1.4 and different from 1.39. That's all I hope for in the end.

    I would still keep float too. People just haven't found reason to use it. But people also forget that since it's immune to earth, not even Oil can override it

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    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 07:51:00 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #51 on: September 04, 2016, 07:51:00 PM »
    I know I've said this like three times already, but it's ok to have some elements be easier to build with and counter than others. As Andrew noted, Earth Clothes makes Earth rather potent; Float is an additional way to mitigate Earth's effectiveness. Float is rarely seen since other movements (MHPUP, MMPUP, Move+1) are more useful, and even when Float is used, it rarely makes an impact because not all teams are Earth-based! I'm pretty darn sure people making an Earth-based team are far more worried about Flash Hat and Diamond Armlet, two generally-useful equipment, than Float (or even Earth Clothes, as that's specific to Earth-based teams!).

    I don't see Float as a problem because it's... never been a problem. I see Float as an extra safety valve in case Earth stuff gets out of hand. With the bonus of sometimes being the perfect movement ability for specific setups.

    I couldn't have worded it any better. With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140, but since we've never seen the null: earth on float be a problem before, I don't see a justification for removing it. 

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    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 08:35:10 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #52 on: September 04, 2016, 08:35:10 PM »
    I give up.
    :D
    CT5Holy [Posts: 1104]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 09:11:26 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #53 on: September 04, 2016, 09:11:26 PM »
    With the gold hairpin change we have an experience with holy/dark damage getting out of hand for 140...

    Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.

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    gatebuster202 [Posts: 313]
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    • [September 04, 2016, 11:02:50 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #54 on: September 04, 2016, 11:02:50 PM »
    Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.

    I'm going to put a well thought out argument for Robes, Clothes and Hats to have some changes. Mostly it will be Elemental Interactions that I am looking at but won't touch the Stat-giving items. (They're in a nice place.)

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    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [September 05, 2016, 11:10:27 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #55 on: September 05, 2016, 11:10:27 AM »
    I'm looking forward to it, gatebuster.

    But people also forget that since [Float is] immune to earth, not even Oil can override it

    That is a good point.

    Well, Golden Hairpin didn't change... it's that we added a crucial new option each for Dark and Holy. People are well aware how devastating max MA Holy, Dia, Shadow Shade, and Kotetsu can be. Dark Holy and new Bizen Boat gave excellent tools to Dark (high single-target damage) and Holy (high AoE damage) that they didn't have before.

    I agree.  In fact, I was a bit surprised to see MA*8 in the new formula for Bizen Boat.

    For the sake of argument, is anyone comfortable with the idea of turning 1/3 of MP into Three Stars, a support ability (named after its appearance in Final Fantasies VI and X) which reduces the MP cost of all spells to 1?  Even with 1/3 of MP, units with low MP pools (e.g., Archer, Paladin, Thief) still expend their entire base MP bar after three or four casts of reasonably expensive magic (e.g., Raise 2, Demi 2, Paralyze).  Consequently, these classes must nevertheless equip at least one piece of MP equipment, usually Golden Hairpin or a robe, for sustained spellcasting.  How much better would this support ability be if its application allows one to eschew MP equipment entirely?

    Perhaps a little. Think of it like this: Attack UP usually boosts PA by 3~4.  This allows players to equip their units with armor other than Twist Headband and Power Sleeve while maintaining the same effective PA.  By the same token, Three Stars will allow players to equip their low-MP units with armor other than Golden Hairpin/robes.  Thus, Three Stars and Attack UP become more comparable in potency at the design stage.

    Nevertheless, Three Stars has its downside in battle, and thus is yet less potent than Attack UP.  By eschewing MP equipment with Three Stars, one becomes extremely vulnerable to MP damage; for example, a single tap of a Mage Masher by a feeble Wizard will nearly burn the entire MP bar of a 19 MP Thief.  And since Three Stars does not completely remove MP cost, such MP damage can still disrupt spell casting.  This downside also applies to those scheming to pair MP Switch and Three Stars together: Block a big hit with MP Switch and you'll still lose a turn recovering lost MP, Three Stars be damned.
    « Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 11:43:02 AM by Gaignun »
    Lol Whut?
    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [September 05, 2016, 01:20:19 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #56 on: September 05, 2016, 01:20:19 PM »
    When I said that I didn't mean that golden hairpin changed, I was referring to the suggestion for it to half holy/dark. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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    silentkaster [Posts: 541]
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    • [September 05, 2016, 10:10:28 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #57 on: September 05, 2016, 10:10:28 PM »
    Okay, here are my thoughts on some stuff that I see proposed. I've only commented on stuff I'm not mostly indifferent on, or that I don't agree with. I kinda went in order of Gaignun's post as the document I had was at work. To be clear, if I haven't commented, it means I'm neutral or in agreement with the change (or my level of agreement/disagreement isn't too significant at the present moment.)




















    Edit: I had written "20" instead of "10" by mistake above.
    « Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 10:29:22 PM by silentkaster »
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    Shintroy [Posts: 475]
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    • [September 06, 2016, 03:36:42 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #58 on: September 06, 2016, 03:36:42 PM »
    I give up.
    Still requesting an accurate team building spreadsheet without netherseer.

    Some day my people will be free.
    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [September 07, 2016, 08:55:49 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #59 on: September 07, 2016, 08:55:49 AM »
    Glad to hear your input, silentkaster.

    Merging Dancerbards: I don't mind merging the two jobs, nor allowing them to equip each other's weapons.  However, unless the algorithm which determines the stats of each sex has been unraveled, I don't believe we will be able to maintain 12 PA on female dancerbards, 8 PA on male dancerbards, etc.

    Recover on Squires: I understand the need to keep units out of critical.  I only wish we can create something that isn't a handicapped version of Nurse.  Otherwise, what is stopping us from giving a recover skill to every job?

    Shuriken: If it isn't any trouble, why don't we have the skill throw a series of 4 shurikens?  This way we keep the damage of 1.39 Shuriken, but prevent targeting through walls.

    Haste/Slow: How about swapping the accuracies of only Slow and Slow 2?  The accuracy of Haste 2 isn't really a problem.

    Bow Gun: Yeah, 20% Add: Dead is fine.  25% Add: Dead is even better.

    10 SP Time Mages: 10 SP allows a Time Mage to cast 2 CT spells before 8 SP units get their first turn.  This is great for applying Haste before the 8 SP units disperse from their starting positions.  As for Sinkhole, it isn't much better on 9 SP Time Mages either.  Sinkhole works truly best on 8 SP units against other 8 SP units.
     
    Scholar equipment: In the event that scholars get shields, I would prefer they lose hat access in order to prevent stacking the MA of Aegis Shield and Holy Miter.

    Item and White Magic: I can't speak for others, but I don't think White Magic is unequivocally better than Item.  As you mentioned, Item can restore Berserk, Undead, and Stop.  However, aside from those ailments, White Magic is unequivocally more potent than Item.  For the significant cost of running a high-faith team, Cure 1 beats X-Potion and Raise 2 beats Phoenix Down hands down.

    New skills on Item: Given the versatility of White Magic, which consists of a mixture of offensive and defensive skills, I am reluctant to the idea of putting offensive skills (damage or status) on Item.  A damage skill in particular will likely be overlooked by the AI, as Item users typically have other, more effective means of dealing single-target damage.  I think reducing the JP cost of status healing, and perhaps introducing an improved form of Phoenix Down, will be enough.

    Cursed Ring: Cursed Ring was OP in 1.38 precisely because of its SP boost, which has never been nerfed.  Players would make 10~12 SP units with Cursed Ring, so while you attempt to finish off the rest of the team, the Cursed Ring units chew through the countdown clock, auto-revive, and get a free turn.  For this reason, giving Cursed Ring an extra point of SP and/or increasing the revival chance is a step backward in my opinion.  Removing its Fire weakness is OK, though.

    Making Raise 2 evadeable: I believe this would also make friendly units evade their own Raise 2.

    Edit: Cursed Ring Suggestion: Remove Weak: Fire and Always: Undead. Add Always: Poison and Immune: Regen.  We might as well remove Hyper Wrist from the game at the same time, since this form of Cursed Ring will be superior.  Not sure how popular this suggestion will be.
    « Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 10:39:09 AM by Gaignun »
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