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Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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  • [August 10, 2016, 06:30:09 PM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2016, 06:30:09 PM »
Thank you for the feedback, everybody.  I will try to provide a few responses.


Finally, as for the most recent discord discussion,

Removing crits/knockback: Knockback is stupid fun, but I won't mind if it disappears.
Moving Ruin skills elsewhere: They certainly don't find much love on Thieves, but I think they are equally unattractive anywhere else.  We'll need to think carefully about this.
P Bag inheriting Rune Blade's properties: If we are reluctant to use further weapon slots, then sure.


Punch Art, Spin Fist
Current: (PA/2)*PA
Nonlinear: [(PA+2)/2]*PA
Linear: PA*10
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 06:51:32 PM by Gaignun »
Lol Whut?
dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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  • [August 10, 2016, 07:34:09 PM]
Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2016, 07:34:09 PM »
My bad, regenerator really does trigger on HP Damage according to the wiki. I don't think anything was changed, so I was mistaken. Was probably thinking about Piety when Emmy pointed out to me I was wrong in my ASM thread. Sorry for the confusion lol.

Also, yeah we wouldn't go that far with the RSM relocation. It also has to be useful for the class we put it on as well as classes that will use the secondary. Maybe putting 1/3 of MP on time mage wouldn't be as bad as I thought, and I'm just overthinking things. But yeah, they are already a very solid class as is, and I would stray away from giving them too much stuff that would be useful for them. Shields + 9 SP are already a huge boon, and I can see the other caster classes being neglected (especially scholar, which we nerfed to the ground) due to this.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 07:48:35 PM by dw6561 »
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    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [August 10, 2016, 07:44:50 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #22 on: August 10, 2016, 07:44:50 PM »
    Ah, gotcha.  So Piety has countergrasp, then?

    By the way, there's a wiki?
    silentkaster [Posts: 541]
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    • [August 10, 2016, 07:54:19 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #23 on: August 10, 2016, 07:54:19 PM »


    You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.
    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [August 11, 2016, 02:46:53 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #24 on: August 11, 2016, 02:46:53 AM »
    1. I think your arguments more pointed out, at least to me, that the Rainbow Staff is a bit overpowered more than I see the other staffs underpowered.

    And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.

    Thinking more about the elemental rods, it actually kind of saddens me since they proc Nether spells. These prevent the weapon being utilized effectively since in order to proc, you'd want low brave, but for the whack damage, you want higher brave. I have to think about that a bit more as they don't go well with each other.

    I hope my calculations have helped out a bit.  As they are, the elemental rods are kind of like the sisters of guns/flails: the rods' damage is roughly independent of Brave, just as the guns/flails damage are independent of PA and MA.

    2. Distribute is almost useless on TM I'm afraid which would why I'd be against swapping it. The scholar, due to the Lore spells and the popularity with absorb, is probably the right home for distribute (perhaps Wizard too.)

    True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

    I'm not totally against [Priests] losing Flails since they did gain books, but eh, would want something to replace them, and preferably a non MA weapon.

    How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).

    4. A lot. But it depends on the unit. Monks are probably the best at using their own skill set, tied only with Dancer in terms of being able to PA stack. But it becomes arguable when you look at other skills. For example, any of the Cross skills require Equip X which means they must now build for that in addition to losing Attack UP or Concentrate (with the barely notable exception that they want to bag Southern Cross). The tons, while they can couple with Attack Up or Concentrate, now sacrifice W-EV and S-EV and it might be more apt on a Squire, as well as having to choose between 108 Gems to strengthen or some other, more relevant, Accessory. (I won't go over all the different PA skill sets and such, but I think you get where I'm going.)

    Also, Monks are already kinda meh on their skillset without Martial Arts as it renders all but Stigma Magic, Revive and Secret Fist (and I think it affects them too but on a much more miniscule scale) from their native skillset very weakened. This sacrifices a support slot to use their own skillset. Even with Attack UP, it just can't produce the same results MA can.

    I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.

    As for the comparison between ton Monks and ton Squires, I believe Monks' higher HP, MP, SP, and access to Punch Art are well worth the loss of EV. By the numbers,

    Monk (13+5 PA, 108 Gems, Attack UP):
    30 effective PA, 335 HP, 98 MP, 9 SP, 10 P-EV, 0 M-EV, Poison/Sap immunity
    Squire (10+8 PA, Kaiser Plate, Attack UP)
    30 effective PA, 315 HP, 62 MP, 8 SP, 35 P-EV, 15 M-EV

    For the cost of 25 P-EV and 15 M-EV, Monks get
    • +20 HP
    • +36 MP
    • +1 SP
    • Poison/Sap immunity
    • the ability to restore their own MP with Chakra
    • the ability to hit multiple units with Earth Slash and Spin Fist, etc.
    The +1 SP boost alone is worth the price.  Just look at Swift Plate: 20 fewer P-EV and M-EV than Escutcheon II for +1 SP.

    Dropping Monks to 12 base PA would drop their effective PA from 30 to 28, adding an extra cost of 2 PA for the above benefits.

    Cross Monks getting nerfed is certainly true, but it is a price I would be willing to pay in exchange for making PA-based skills (like the new Jump) viable on other jobs without having Monks break them.

    Edit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.
    « Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 05:59:07 AM by Gaignun »
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    • [August 11, 2016, 10:05:16 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #25 on: August 11, 2016, 10:05:16 AM »
    Edit: I think I am going to backpedal a bit on my Monk proposal for the moment.  Monks being the reigning ton user still stands, but a few sloppy calculations show that Monks are no better at Jumping than Lancers.  Time for another approach.

    For damage purposes, Dancers are just as good now at Jumping with Overwhelm and a Ryotian Silk or a high WP Sword. They only jump slower, which can be covered. (granted, you gotta focus on Jumping with the Dancer, but most use them purely for their PA anyway.)
    silentkaster [Posts: 541]
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    • [August 12, 2016, 04:56:24 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #26 on: August 12, 2016, 04:56:24 PM »
    And yet Rainbow Staff is no better than Platinum Sword.

    The top class on the male side is 10 PA that can use the platinum sword without a support. On the female side who can use Rainbow Staff, it's 11 MA. With the 2H, 2S support or Samurai with Equip Magegear, this weapon can wreak havoc. But I guess the platinum sword could too on a correctly designed unit.

    While I see Dancer can use the PS with 12 PA, the 11 (and even 10) MA classes that can use the Rainbow Staff have skills in their primary skillset that can take advantage of added MA and/or movement that might be stacked. The Dancer does not (with the barely notable exceptions of Witch Hunt and Wiznaibus which gets boosted very small amounts comparatively with each stacking number.)

    I actually always had an issue with Platinum Sword as it was just a weapon that was kinda "there." I think it at least has a place now on certain units like a support Geomancer or Paladin, but it's still not spectacular in my eyes. (Note that above 10 PA, a 2H Platinum Sword will deal more damage than a 2H Lionheart which I guess is something.)

    On a side note, Berserk damage cannot be added to the Platinum Sword unless the unit is Always: Berserk. Rainbow Staff could get stronger with Berserk applied to the fighter in a fight.


    True, though it does not fare much better on Scholars, as I don't believe Distribute triggers on self-absorption.  Distribute would only work if you have two Scholars casting Lore on each other, at which point we're looking at a pretty niche team.  Still better than nothing.

    How about having Scholars and Priests swap flails and poles?  Poles are equally useable as PA weapons, and give Priests extra reach for melee attacks.  Perhaps the +1 Range of Poles could make up for reverting Priests to 3 Move, and Scholars could become the 4 Move mage (if that ever happens).

    I would be okay with them swapping rods and flails. That's about it. Again, I'm definitely not okay with Priests giving Flails to Scholars (unless Scholars give up Rods) period. Scholars get nothing from this exchange and Priests just lose something. Even if it were another weapon that priests pick up from Scholars, it would be beneficial only to the Priest and not the Scholar if it's flails that are exchanged.

    I would say that Monks and Dancers are the only classes that can use the top four skills of Punch Art.  Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to drop Monks' PA without buffing Punch Art, so no worries there.
    I disagree. These skills can be built and played with...but I suppose that's really not here or there.

    You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.
    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [August 13, 2016, 06:44:54 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #27 on: August 13, 2016, 06:44:54 PM »

    Would somebody care to give an account for following changes in 1.40a?  These must have been debated on Discord, because they were not discussed anywhere on the forums as far as I can tell.

    Quote
    BASIC SKILL
    - Yell: Lost MP Regen, 0 MP

    YIN YANG MAGIC
    - Blind --> “Douse”: 4 range, 0 AoE, 4 CT, 12 MP, Hit_F(MA+65)%, M-Ev, reflectable, Adds: Darkness and Oil, CF and CM, 150 JP
    - Blind Rage: Gained Darkness, 4 CT, Hit_F(MA+55)%
    Heroebal [Posts: 135]
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    • [August 13, 2016, 08:52:45 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #28 on: August 13, 2016, 08:52:45 PM »
    I have a geo on one of my beta test teams that uses the top 4 punch art skills pretty effectively, I think paladin (little less power tanky version), lancers (speed and/or power) or thieves (due to speed) can use those monk skills pretty well too. Also the nice thing about spin fist now is that it's smart targeting so pair it with 1 or 2 mimes and some pa stackage (sing or basic skill)........

    *squires too^
    « Last Edit: August 13, 2016, 10:02:05 PM by Heroebal »
    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [August 13, 2016, 10:04:33 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #29 on: August 13, 2016, 10:04:33 PM »
    @Gaignun: I would favour the linear formula (PA*10) a lot more than what we have currently.  We should definitely make this a thing!  We came-up with the Yell, Blind, and Blind Rage changes during the Discord 1.40a suggestions discussion.
    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [August 15, 2016, 09:47:48 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #30 on: August 15, 2016, 09:47:48 PM »
    Linear Punch Art!  As linear as FFXIII.

    Were any arguments made for the Yell, Douse, and Blind Rage changes?
    Lol Whut?
    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [August 15, 2016, 11:26:13 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #31 on: August 15, 2016, 11:26:13 PM »
    Yell lost MP Regen because the AI likes to spam yell until all 4 party members are hasted, which wastes a lot of turns. Having that be the ONLY direct way to add MP Regen sucks, so we moved it to regen instead. Fortuntately, the AI will now use Regen as a set up spell, so the change has an additional bonus too. Douse came to be because we wanted a skill that inflicts oil directly due to removing oil from Hawk's eye.

    Blind rage was changed because Insult outclassed it, and also due to the punny "Blind" Rage  :P . However, I currently have a problem with this skill mainly because the AI can't cure berserk and darkness at the same time (except through Heal, which requires being adjacent). It's very potent, so the accuracy should probably either go down or the skill could return to the way it was before.

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    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [August 16, 2016, 12:50:38 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #32 on: August 16, 2016, 12:50:38 AM »
    Ah, so MP Regen trips the AI into becoming a Yell bot? What status effect did MP Regen replace, by the way?  Also, could Yell spam be avoided if we give Yell HP Regen, as originally intended?

    I am glad to hear you share my thoughts on Blind Rage. Like Silence, Blind is one of those status effects that cripples an entire type of unit (i.e., melee units), lasts forever, and is impossible to cure efficiently, since the AI prioritizes almost everything over curing Blind, including attacking with those Blinded units.  Before, the only way to reliably apply Blind was with Kiyomori, which also adds Poison.  The AI cures Poison well, so both ailments were usually healed together.  Now, Oracles can apply Blind with both Douse and Blind Rage.  In the case of Blind Rage, the AI can heal Berserk and only Berserk with Echo Grass, but will leave Blind be.

    In a word, I think Blind Rage is currently OP. In the upcoming tournament, all melee units who face Yin Yang magicians and do not have Blind protection are going to be in real trouble.

    My proposal would be to remove Add: Blind from Blind Rage.  Having one skill on Yin Yang magic add Blind is enough.  I think Douse is a great skill; it takes over Hawk's Eye, and most importantly the AI actually uses it. It is fine if Blind Rage is outclassed by Insult on average; in exchange, Blind Rage is affected by the Faith buff (which is now much easier to apply), sister skill Paralyze outclasses Blackmail, etc.

    Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?
    « Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 01:36:48 AM by Gaignun »
    Lol Whut?
    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [August 16, 2016, 07:28:44 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #33 on: August 16, 2016, 07:28:44 AM »
    Its not the MP Regen, it's the haste. Yell is just an inherently bugged skill, doomed to be spammed until everyone is hasted. Anything we do to the skill is going to make this worse.

    MP Regen is the blank status, and MP Poison in dark/evil looking.

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    Andrew [Posts: 211]
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    • [August 18, 2016, 08:36:15 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #34 on: August 18, 2016, 08:36:15 PM »
    Edit: I notice in testing that Ninjutsu tons are now affected by P-EV.  Could this be corrected in the next patch?

    I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.
    :D
    CT5Holy [Posts: 1104]
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    • [August 18, 2016, 10:23:01 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #35 on: August 18, 2016, 10:23:01 PM »
    The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/

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    Gaignun [Posts: 526]
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    • [August 19, 2016, 08:27:32 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #36 on: August 19, 2016, 08:27:32 AM »
    I just tested the -tons in both 1.40a and 1.39c, and they are physical evade in both patches.  So, I guess that them being magic evade was just another old master guide error.  I'll update the spreadsheet image now.

    You're right, Andrew.  They were PEV-based in 1.39.  I think I reported it back then, too, then subsequently forgot about it.

    The original intent for the -tons was to be M-Evadable though =/

    Indeed  ):
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    • [August 23, 2016, 12:32:57 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #37 on: August 23, 2016, 12:32:57 PM »
    After some thought: Even with the buffs to Ultima, it still feels like we're trying to make it underwhelming given that it's on Squire. It's easy to make it overpowered, yeah, but the fact that it's still 5 CT and on a somewhat low MA job doesn't give it the opportunity to really shine.

    So a few alternative ideas: Make it PA based instead, so that it'll be the only true spell to use PA (the tons don't quite count), or give it something similar to the formula that poles use. That is, Max MA/PA *? (probably still 9).

    Can this be seen as OP? Well, you'd see a few people try units stacked for PA (assuming 18) with Short Charge... But at most you'd probably only see damage around what would be Chiri for units stacked with MA (and Magic Attack UP) and STILL with a CT delay at that, though the smart targeting and unevadable nature would place it's desirability about = to Chiri.

    I know in the past that people didn't really wanna touch Basic Skill because it's supposed to be "basic", but in a patch meant for balanced PvP combat, that concept feels silly because you're intentionally keeping something underpowered :v
    Lol Whut?
    dw6561 [Posts: 253]
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    • [August 23, 2016, 06:32:24 PM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #38 on: August 23, 2016, 06:32:24 PM »
    I would like for Ultima to become PA/MA based. The only PA based AoE we really have are cover fire and the two PA based draw outs, and I'd really like to see more. This would also help male squires out a bit seeing as how they have the same PA as a female squire has MA. We also don't have any skills like this currently and it would be pretty unique in that regard. I like the idea of basic skill being basic in that it can work with a wide variety of builds, and this change provides that kind of versatility.

    If that's not ok with most people, I would also be ok with it becoming purely PA based. The advantage there is that formula is already coded and everything, so all we have to do is patcher up and go. It would be boosted by attack up in this case, so just be aware of that.

    It's all about options, and I don't think either change would step on the toes of anything we have currently because it still has 5 CT and is relatively weak unless you stat stack.

    Speaking of PA/MA based things, What does everyone think of making cure 4 PA/MA based? It would still be a faith based emergency heal, but would then work for PA based classes as well. White Magic Lancers/Monks/Archers come to mind. I don't think this would step on chakra because chakra is instant, AoE, and recovers MP which synergizes well with MP Switch. They are two different skills amd have different uses. Also you would have to equip white magic, so it wouldn't be good for all builds/teams.

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    CT5Holy [Posts: 1104]
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    • [August 24, 2016, 05:17:46 AM]
    Re: FFT Arena Balance Discussion Thread
    « Reply #39 on: August 24, 2016, 05:17:46 AM »
    By making Ultima only hitting enemies, we took away it's biggest flaw, and yet it's still underwhelming? It does great damage that's Faith-independent. That's huge. Now the only worry is that it could get midcharged, but 1. that's something a lot of other spells have to deal with, and 2. no more redirects! I know I made that point already, but in 139 many Ultimas were redirected. Now it's just super solid damage. I fail to see how Ultima being on Basic Skill makes it underpowered. It's not! And on Basic Skill, you have access to Heal, which is one of the few ways to cure Stop, Berserk, and Oil.

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