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Discord Discussion

Started by silentkaster, April 26, 2016, 10:59:45 pm

silentkaster

You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Shintroy

Invite didn't work. Make an infinite invite.
Some day my people will be free.

dw6561

April 27, 2016, 12:20:21 am #2 Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 12:28:28 am by dw6561
try this: https://discord.gg/0yVBfKgVSrUfnnYc

I finally figured it out, lol.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Andrew

April 27, 2016, 01:49:11 am #3 Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 10:30:02 am by Andrew
What we all decided upon today, starting with skillsets and going in order according to the master guide.  DISCLAIMER: These are just ideas that we all managed to agree on to an extent, came-up with on the spot (or borrowed from previously-suggested ideas), and are not finalized.  As such, the ideas posted are rough, can be fine-tuned at a later date, and are lacking detailed information.  Ultimately, they may not all (if any) make it to 1.4.


BASIC SKILL - Heal: Gains Berserk removal; Ultima: Lowered to 3 CT.

ITEM - Hi Potion: Lowered JP cost (possibly?)

CHIVALRY - Grand Cross: 1 AoE around caster (like Muramasa)  OR  12 MP cost  OR  lower vertical tolerance; Reraise: sticky-targeting  OR  0 CT.

SNIPE - Hawk's Eye: Loses Poison and accounts for Darkness; Leg Aim: Stop or Don't Move (small JP increase);  Weapon Break: Becomes "Steal Weapon" and is given to Thief.

PUNCH ART - Spin Fist: smart-targeting with 200-250 JP cost; Wave Fist: Loses Wind elemental?

WHITE MAGIC - Cure 4: 60% healing, 100% chance?; Protect/Shell: 5-10% healing; Regen: 0 CT; Dia: 4 range, 1 AoE, 1 CT, 10 MP  OR  6 range.

BLACK MAGIC - Fire: Old Oil, low chance to land; Poison: smart-targeting, 0 CT  OR  10% HP damage.

TIME MAGIC - Haste/Slow: 75-80%; Haste2/Slow2: 90%~; Stop: 60%.

SUMMON MAGIC - Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit/Silf: MA*7; Salamander: Non-elemental  OR  20% Berserk with lower AoE; Zodiac: non-elemental; Fairy: 50% HP healing; Carbuncle: 0 MP cost.
  • Modding version: PSX

Shintroy

Don't agree with most, if not any of those changes due to making other abilities obsolete. Like Fairy being an AOE, smart targeting raise. I'll get into that at an appropriate time though.
Some day my people will be free.

Barren

I was thinking for Regenerator what if you get a 25% or 33% of Max HP heal then regen. That I think would help make regenerator more viable. Anyone here agree or disagree?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Reks

Quote from: Barren on April 27, 2016, 08:50:57 am
I was thinking for Regenerator what if you get a 25% or 33% of Max HP heal then regen. That I think would help make regenerator more viable. Anyone here agree or disagree?

Little heal and Regen is FAR better than just Regen. I can agree comfortably with at least 25%.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
  • Discord username: Reks#0128

Andrew

Quote from: Shintroy on April 27, 2016, 08:35:34 am
Don't agree with most, if not any of those changes due to making other abilities obsolete. Like Fairy being an AOE, smart targeting raise. I'll get into that at an appropriate time though.


These are just ideas that we all managed to agree on to an extent, came-up with on the spot (or borrowed from previously-suggested ideas), and are not finalized.  As such, the ideas posted are rough, can be fine-tuned at a later date, and are lacking detailed information.  Ultimately, they may not all (if any) make it to 1.4.  Besides, this is just the beginning, as we've simply started with the skillsets and are working our way up from there; we only had the patience/time to talk about Basic Skill to Summon Magic, in order according to the master guide.  So, for these changes making other skills "obsolete", we won't truly know this until we've finished discussing, well, everything else.

I hope that you can manage to join the Discord chat the next time we have it.  For the majority of us, it was something new to fiddle around with, so we weren't entirely sure why certain things were happening or not happening... such as your invite not working?
  • Modding version: PSX

dw6561

I updated the link, it should be a permanant invite now. If it still wasn't working I don't really know but I can try to play around with it. When do you all want to start up discussion again? I'm free pretty much any day around the times we've been streaming, but if we can go at another time that would be fine.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Barren

Well today i got plans after work but tomorrow might be a better day because I don't got work. Whatever time you want to do it just say the word
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

silentkaster

Quote from: Barren on April 27, 2016, 08:50:57 am
I was thinking for Regenerator what if you get a 25% or 33% of Max HP heal then regen. That I think would help make regenerator more viable. Anyone here agree or disagree?


Completely disagree, unfortunately. Auto Potion heals for 70 HP regardless of the unit's damage taken. You're talking about healing, at minimum, 75 HP on a 300 HP unit (and 300 HP is very easy to get to in most cases). For Auto Potion to break even with just the HP alone, we're talking the unit has to be 280 HP which most mages get to fairly easily as well. The 400 HP paladins that would have this as a reaction would be game breaking I feel like.

If anything, I'd say a JP drop is fine. It's in white magic and the reaction isn't really supposed to be great anyway due to the fact that White Magic is such a necessary skill set. It can deal with the poison from Wiznaibus spam and other poison attacks, and/or be a way of passive healing for units that otherwise can't restore their own HP.

Quote from: Shintroy on April 27, 2016, 08:35:34 am
Don't agree with most, if not any of those changes due to making other abilities obsolete. Like Fairy being an AOE, smart targeting raise. I'll get into that at an appropriate time though.


Then I hope you can join us for the next discussion. Realize that we spent a hefty amount of time on each class we discussed (which reminds me, I forgot to bring up an issue I had with time mage but I was up way too late :P) so none of the suggestions we came up with were taken lightly. The discussion went for a solid three+ hours on just those classes/abilities alone and while I don't agree with all of them either, I can see the reasoning behind each one. We haven't discussed the other eight classes yet or the Netherseer idea at all, so some of those abilities may change to compensate so if you know something we overlooked, please make sure you join us so we have that knowledge next time.

Quote from: Barren on April 27, 2016, 10:47:49 am
Well today i got plans after work but tomorrow might be a better day because I don't got work. Whatever time you want to do it just say the word


I'm fine with tomorrow at 7 or 7:30 EST if everyone else is. I'd at least like to get classes and abilities done this week if possible :P
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Kurosabes

Your disagreement on the ideas is understandable, especially since this is just a summary of the ideas without any details on why they should happen. Also it may just be an excuse, but most of us were tired, after all, the discussion started (and ended) fairly late and right after the stream, to boot. If our next Discord starts earlier, we'll be fresher and have clearer thoughts.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

CT5Holy

Unclear if I'll be making it tomorrow or not, but discuss away regardless~
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

Shintroy

It's just a lot of the suggestions just undo what FFMaster fixed from 138 to 139
Hi Potion - lowered JP defeats the purpose of even having two different potions.  Eventually there will be only one potion that heals based on %.

Grand Cross - Huge nerf to restrict it to aoe around caster only. It already does that so why not just nerf the vertical range on both "Cross" attacks.
Reraise - It's fine as is. It was too bugged and stall heavy at 0 CT.

Hawk's Eye - Fine with it being affected by Darkness. It must have been a bug in the first place. Also okay with it losing poison since the damage formula's already OP since it's based off pure SP. Keep it adding 100% oil though. Oil abilities need to be in the game. Keep it weapon elemental as well.

Weapon Break - Fine on archer. Doesn't really get much usage at the moment. If anything steal will need some new abilities since it may remove quickening and it has a lot of semi useless abilties like Bad Luck.

Monks getting Goblin Punch is okay with me. Let's just keep the vertical the same. No need to buff it to the point where it's a over powered insant physical summon/draw out like abliity.

Wave Fist being wind element made sense. If it was made non elemental I'd suggest it get it's vanilla JP cost of 300 since it's a strong buff  giving monk a reliable ranged damage option..

Cure 4 - Not a fan of any Cure spells getting % healing.

Protect/Shell - I'm behind these two getting low % healing so the AI use them.
Regen - Rather just give it smart targeting than change it. With version 140 getting poison immunity to an accessory or two there doesn't need to be too many hard counters to poison. Especially with one of the main moves for adding poison being changed to not anymore.

Fire - Same with Cure. Not a fan of it getting HP % damage. That's what Demi is for, let's keep it that way.  The poison status effect could be changed. Not sure to what though. Maybe poison?

Haste/Slow - Can definitely use a buff.
Haste2/Slow2 - No reason to nerf them

Don't agree with anything on for summon magic especially Fairy. I think I already listed why. Just posting now since it's not guaranteed I'll be in the discord tonight.

Please remember why some changes were made from 138 to 139 just in case I'm not there to remind everyone.
Some day my people will be free.

Andrew

April 28, 2016, 04:03:08 pm #14 Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 04:33:42 pm by Andrew
I probably won't be able to make it to the Discord, either, so I'll just post some detailed thoughts on the ideas we came up with:

Having another source of Berserk removal would be nice, and it's right at home with Heal due to its ability to heal "uncommon" status effects in the first place.  Besides, it has a short range, and its user may have difficulties trying to dispel a berserked ally anyway, which wouldn't make this alteration overpowered in the slightest, but instead a nice addition.


The main problem with Ultima is that it gets redirected very easily; and, since it's non-elemental and not reliant upon Faith, makes it more deadly for its users than its original targets.  I don't think anybody would ever argue over the suggestion to drop it to 3 CT.


With a single use, it has the potential to heal its user, damage multiple enemies AND heal multiple allies.  To make things worse, it's 0 CT, has a vertical tolerance of 3 (1 more than a melee Attack), and doesn't receive a damage penalty.  400 JP cost?  Who cares if your unit is just spamming Grand Cross anyway, which only costs 8 MP to use.  Melee range?  3 Move units would have an issue on large maps, but are fine on medium/small maps.  The AI is unable to understand that, unless they can kill, it's pointless trying to deal damage to a Grand Cross user at all, resulting in some very stupid AI behaviour.


If it were to be balanced, one out of three of the following ideas could work:

1) Make it 4-direction, 1 AoE, and still affecting the caster, just like how Masamune works.  This way, it can still heal its user, but only affect ONE other target, cutting its current potential efficiency in half.

2) Give it a CT of 2-3.  This way, it can be interrupted, makes its user vulnerable for that split moment, and the dumb AI can make it up to the player by moving out of the way of a potential one-hit-KO.

3) Lower its vertical tolerance to 1 (or even 0).  This would force its user to consider other attacks, such as its actual regular Attack, and prevent less situations where its user can pull-off such ridiculous feats of self-healing, ally healing, and enemy damage all in one swoop.  Mind you, this change wouldn't really affect its current OPness in flat maps, making this my least-impactful idea.


I was the one that suggested the lock-on targeting, but now that I've had more time to think about it, it really is fine the way it is, considering that it's very fast, has decent range, only costs 100 JP, and has a 100% chance to grant Reraise.  So, it's fine the way it is, really.


I hate this skill.  It works with any weapon type, it's unavoidable, deals SP*WP damage, ignores Darkness, AND afflicts Poison and Oil.  It's still worth picking up even on the weakest of units because of all of those pros.  Yeah, it has 3 CT and costs 12 MP to use, but proper unit order and using Hawk's Eye on any clothes/robes user (which is the mass majority of jobs) negates these downfalls.  While I don't mind it losing Poison and being subjected to Darkness, I feel that it should AT LEAST become evadable.  SP*WP damage promotes use with Long Bows, with most of those granting a point of Speed, having high WP, and ridiculous range.  It's very easy to build an archer that can spam high-damage Hawk's Eyes AND be able to do something else, unlike a Grand Cross spammer.


I'm all for this current suggestion.  Don't Move isn't nearly as useful as Stop is, but having it have a chance to afflict Stop as well would force the AI to use it more often.  Stop (skill) can backfire and costs MP.  Stall can be easily negated by Finger Guard users, and the fact that it has a short range in comparison.  Leg Aim is 0 CT and relies on its user's weapon range, allowing for the player apply Stop in a different fashion, all with the cost of having a 50% chance to apply Don't Move instead.  Sounds balanced to me, really.


Its current form is bad, due to the potential friendly-fire KOs and lack of vertical tolerance.  At least smart-targeting would be fine, just like Shintroy said, or a vertical increase of at least 1 would be neato!


Currently, the only reliable ranged attacks Punch Art has access to both have elements slapped on top of them.  Earth Slash I can understand, as it's been this way since vanilla, and people are used to it functioning like this.  Wave Fist, on the other hand, has the ability to strike from a distance in all directions, which sorely make up for the lack of vertical range on the likes of Spin Fist and Repeating Fist, and the 4-direction of Earth Slash.... unless you encounter Wind-absorbing enemies.  Yeah, there goes your flexibility, dear pugilist, unless you sacrificed a bunch of JP for Earth Slash, as well.  I'm ALL for it losing its Wind elemental status.  If this is the case, then Heaven's Cloud could adopt Asura's formula.


This is a skill that we spent nearly 20-30 minutes talking about; the result wasn't hastily decided upon.  If it becomes this way, CT and MP costs would be adjusted.  It was originally suggested to promote more White Magic usage amongst low-Faith users (like how Wall does).  Again, the numbers are rough, and can always be changed in the future.  I'm all for a Cure 4 functioning like this.


Promotes the AI to use them more proactively?  I'm all for it.  The current form of these skills SUCKS, as the AI typically only uses Protect/Shell/Faith when a unit's HP is just above/below half.


I'm okay with either smart-targeting or 0 CT, as they both would serve the same purpose in the end.  Another thought I had was making it land 100% of the time, again promoting White Magic amongst low-Faith users.  I don't believe this would be OP, since it still would have a CT and cost MP, and would be the higher-AoE alternative to Masamune.


I'm cool with either suggestion, but I feel that if it became AoE, it should still cost a bit more MP... maybe 12, at least?  Would definitely make it an interesting alternative to Holy spam.


The suggestion implied that it would still remain the same, but its proc would instead be of the old Oil, and have a lower chance to apply.  I feel impartial to this suggestion.


Shintroy, of course that Poison would still afflict Poison, I just listed ADDITIONS to its original effect.  Duh.  :P.  I'm fine with either, to be honest.


Completely fine with these two receiving accuracy boosts.


Considering how potent they are in their current state, an accuracy decrease sounds fine to me, as it would promote more Haste/Slow usage, and fail more often on low-faith targets.


A slight nerf to their damage to make-up for the fact that, in their current state, they're essentially more potent versions of Elemental.  Higher damage, unavoidable, much larger AoE.  Yeah, you need to invest faith, but there's also anti-low-faith skills out there, as well, and plenty of neutral skills like Talk Skill that simply don't give a shit.  Yeah, they cost MP, but so little that it won't matter on the units that can use them effectively.  Yeah, there's CT... but it's 3, lol.  In order for Elemental to be effective, you need to build specifically for it, unlike Summon Magic.  I'm all for this change, and I may be a wee-bit bias since I'm the one that suggested it, teehee!


A mid-tier summon that doesn't offer much over the low-tier summons, much like Leviathan and Titan.  At with making it non-elemental, it could be considered a faster, less-expensive Bahamut, with the addition of buffing its elemental buddies.  As for the Berserk suggestion, it's take it or leave it for me.  Definitely would see MUCH more use either way.


Comparing this boosted Fairy to the current Raise: it's more expensive MP-wise (nearly double), has roughly the accuracy of Raise 2, costs 200 JP (Raise costs 100 JP) and a VERY SMALL CHANCE of resurrecting multiple allies.  I've only ever seen it resurrect two before (only one time), but never anymore than that.  Honestly, what are the odds of two allies, much less three, all dying with 1 AoE of one another?  Fairy's AoE is more of a gimmick than anything else.  I'm all for this change... any less, even something like 45%, would cause the AI to waste turns healing.


Any skill that restores MP shouldn't cost MP to use, plain and simple.  If it were to become 0 MP, maybe it could heal MA*5 MP instead?  A slight nerf to its restoration capabilities in exchange for being able to use it when you NEED to use it.
  • Modding version: PSX

silentkaster

Who will be able to make it? I'm not sure if we had firm plans for tonight since only Barren confirmed and I said I'm fine if others are. I'd like at least 4-5 people for discussion...if not we can always reschedule. I can do tonight or if not, can do Saturday/Sunday in the morning, or any day next week 7 PM and after EST.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

dw6561

I'm available all day today, so I will definitely be there.
  • Modding version: PSX
This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

Andrew

I'll try my best to make it.  If I do, it'll be a little late, though, probably an hour or more, sorry.
  • Modding version: PSX

Kurosabes

I suppose I could fill in Andrew's role of summarizing

By the way, Hawk's Eye is 1 CT, the Master Guide is outdated.
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Kurosabes#0312

Barren

Are we having the discord discussion now?
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?