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FFT: kind of

Started by Asmo X, July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 am

Asmo X

July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 am Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 02:08:06 am by Asmo X
Since most patches are moving too far afield of the original FFT, I proposed an idea for a patch in channel that is a very basic overhaul of FFT that only really includes the most essential fixes, balances and changes. Part of this idea is embracing the flaws of the game and not doing anything drastic like ripping out the calculator and shoving something else in. The goal is to make a slightly improved, but harder and more balanced game. Basically what 1.3 was supposed to be when it was first conceived. This thread is for discussing what the best, most essential changes, fixes and balances to the game would be without changing it too radically. My current list:

My list of important stuff:

Blade Grasp only vs blades
Text error correction
JP Scroll Glitch fix
Best Fit Glitch fix   
Global C.ev
25% PD undead
Weapon Guard innate all
Oil Fix
Broken equip buyback (if possible)
Controllable guests
Better br & fa for starting generics
Consolidated move-find (always get 1 item)
Enemy equips set or random (no "nothings")
Swordskill changes (MP/evadable)
Drain/%-based attack change (less damage to lucavi)
Charge skillset PA*WP+Y and MA*WP+Y (same sort of thing)?
More enemy unit variety (fewer battles made up of Wizards, Knights and Archers)
No perm br and fa changes
Special characters can do propositions
Mighty Sword hits monsters?
Death sentence ignores cancel: dead
Soldier office rename any unit
Formulas that use (MA+X)% become (MA*2+X)%? (MA is more important for status effect success)
Secret hunt not required for fur shop
party level cloud
Regen/Poison change (capped)
Party level story enemies
Gear scaled to story (Glain's ASM) (These last 2 are for added difficulty)
Remove Degenerators - FFMaster
Malak Formula Fix - FFMaster
Engineer learns equip gun
Swordskillers learn equip sword
AI cant learn skills that it can't use
Perhaps allow for Elemental to be evaded
Perhaps make Summon Magic do slightly less damage, but let it keep smart-targeting and instead boost other Faith-based magic.
Either completely kill Golem or let it add Protect.
If Knight gets ranged breaks, then it should be the stat breaks ala 1.3.
Knight's equipment breaks should become more likely hit, but should NOT become unable to be dodged.
Thief's equipment steals should become unavoidable.
Lessen the amount spells that Math Skill has access to.
Kill the CT Parameter.
Give Calculators better stats or, at least, close-to-average speed.
Make Speed Break/Speed Ruin add Slow or -20 CT if possible.
Make Speed Save add +CT rather than +Speed.
Kill all other speed-stat increasing or decreasing abilities like Cheer Song, Slow Dance and Ramza's Scream.
Kill Hamedo (turn Hamedo into firststrike?).
Separate MP switch and Move mp by gender
Cap WP for all weapons at 20.
Give Cloths less W-EV.
Give Aegis Shield less M-EV so it doesn't single-handedly shut down Magic with Abandon.
Strengthen weak weapon (types) that aren't Bags, specially (Long)Bows, Staves and maybe Rods.
Weaken all gender-exclusive equipment.
Make Knightswords and Katana's damage formula PA*WP.
Change or kill Level Blast and Please Eat. (Heh. Completely forgot about Please Eat.)
Fix AI flags on some skills

As for PA/MA/SP - Xifanie has a hack that buffs Maintenance to block breaks on these and puts an upper/lower cap on how much they can be boosted or broken.  For something meant to embrace vanilla's faults while making them less outright dumb, this seems perfect here - you can keep Accumulate, Yell, Speed Break, etc. in all their vanilla deliciousness while removing the cheesier strategies most of them created in one masterful stroke.



More dubious stuff:

100% knockback throw stone
Ranged knight breaks OR unevadable
Lower range Lancer jumps
Limited calc skillset
Nerfed Orlandu

Zaen

July 08, 2011, 02:31:03 am #1 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 02:50:46 am by Zaen
I think that Meliadoul should have a unique skillset, in that Orlandu doesn't get those abilities. Also, balance out WP. Nothing should have much more than 20 WP, especially given Throw and how high SP and PA can get.



Edit: Orlandu:
Stasis Sword
Split Punch
Lightning Stab
Icewolf Bite
Blastar Punch
Night Sword
Dark Sword

More:
Speed Break/Ruin -20 CT
Less W-ev for cloth? It's currently 50%.
Stronger bows
Perfumes/Bags? What to do with them?
PA*WP for Bags, Knight Swords, Katanas?
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

FFMaster

July 08, 2011, 02:36:42 am #2 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 03:14:10 am by FFMaster
Remove all Degenerator Traps.
Malak formula fix (Innocent and Faith)
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RavenOfRazgriz

Equip Change Innate All should definitely NOT be included.

It gives the player an "easy out" to any enemy unit relying on the Battle Skill, Mighty Sword, or Steal Commands.  It adds no depth and just generally makes the game easier.  Part of what adds depth is restriction - if the player fucked up and brought the wrong weapon, or had to compromise on what weapon to bring, getting around THAT is part of the difficulty.  Making it easier for the player to have all their options at once makes the game easier, not harder.  More is not better 99% of the time.

I'll comment on more later tonight.

Zaen

Here's a project I started. I weeded out changes I made that didn't apply without ASM and such. It mainly has ability, skillset, and ENTD changes at this point in time. Also, I forgot to take out Golem. I might have changed it, though...

It could be a nice baseline for the project.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

Dome

July 08, 2011, 04:09:41 am #5 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 04:16:46 am by Dome
This would be awesome

Celdia consolidation patch
http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=6450.0
Download this, and apply the changes Asmo suggested

It would be a perfect FFT "Bug free" version and starting point for patches

P.s:
I'm against those
- Samurai hit self?
- Summon no smart targeting?

And equip change as Raven said

P.p.s:
Phil said somewhere that this "Broken equip buyback (if possible)" allows item duping, IIRC (That's why it's not implemented in FFT: Plus)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Asmo X

Yeah there are some bugs with that hack at the moment. If it's ever fixed though, I'd like to have it because I am adamantly opposed to permanent item breakage.

Dome

July 08, 2011, 04:18:58 am #7 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 04:38:14 am by Dome
Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 04:17:19 am
Yeah there are some bugs with that hack at the moment. If it's ever fixed though, I'd like to have it because I am adamantly opposed to permanent item breakage.

IIRC, if we somehow disable the possibility for charmed units to steal your own gear, item duping will no longer be possible

Also, what about reducing the money you get from battles? (I did this in FFT: Plus, giving some extra money for story battles)
And reducing item range to 3? (Item is so overpowered...)

P.s: Specials can do propositions is bugged as well...if you don't have at least 1 generic in your party, you cannot send specials doing propositions

P.p.s: Since enemies get equipments based on how far are you in the story, why not making all enemies "Party level"?

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

Asmo X

And apparently you can buy your enemies' weapons when you break them or something to that effect.

Less money might be a good idea and we need input for jp costs since I know basically nothing about that.

Dome

July 08, 2011, 04:43:31 am #9 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 05:05:42 am by Dome
Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 04:40:36 am
And apparently you can buy your enemies' weapons when you break them or something to that effect.

Less money might be a good idea and we need input for jp costs since I know basically nothing about that.

Reduce all jp costs by 25%/33% (And FFS make fly cost 500 jp), remove gained jp up and give move exp up and move jp up to the chemist job

As a general rule of thumb, level 8 in a job should allow you to master it, IMHO
(That's what I did for FFT: Plus)

"Be wise today so you don't cry tomorrow"

maugustus1

I started with this intent in my patch, but i just kept going... in case that happens to you try to keep the bugfree fft with the fewest changes possible as a ppf on your op alongside your more modified one, im sure a lot of people would be happy :)

Like dome said definitely make fly around 500 JP. I reccomend checking out fft1.3 or fftplus' jp levels and use those, no reason to do the math over!
As for the money, i went the route of making everything more expensive. In chapter 3 in fftretouched, armor and weps are around 20000 so you cant go crazy but you still get enough money to buy items. you can always reduce the money gained by levels by half or to 10, and then edit the entd to give different amounts of money after story battles.

Summon should definitely have smart targeting, keep it like other final fantasies.
Quote from: FFMaster on July 08, 2011, 02:36:42 am
Remove all Degenerator Traps.
Malak formula fix (Innocent and Faith)

definitely do that as well, and take of the squid monsters levelblast.
Quote from: Zaen on July 08, 2011, 02:31:03 am
I think that Meliadoul should have a unique skillset, in that Orlandu doesn't get those abilities. Also, balance out WP. Nothing should have much more than 20 WP, especially given Throw and how high SP and PA can get.



Edit: Orlandu:
Stasis Sword
Split Punch
Lightning Stab
Icewolf Bite
Blastar Punch
Night Sword
Dark Sword

More:
Speed Break/Ruin -20 CT
Less W-ev for cloth? It's currently 50%.
Stronger bows
Perfumes/Bags? What to do with them?
PA*WP for Bags, Knight Swords, Katanas?

Anything more than balancing WP goes beyond the necessary balances and fixes (imho orlandu was put there to be beastly!)

The Damned

July 08, 2011, 06:30:39 pm #11 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 06:36:01 pm by The Damned
(Hmmm...that's a decent rule of thumb, Dome. Not sure if it can or should apply to everything, though.)

Hmmm...that's definitely a simple yet "needed" goal for a patch, though I have to wonder if it and FFT: Plus will run into conflict. Anyway....

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amMy list of important stuff:
Increase jump damage by 3/2 regardless of weapon?


I don't think this should be done, personally. Spears are iffy enough as it is to take away one of the two things they're good at completely.

At present, this is the only "certain" change you're making that I don't agree with for the record. Well, I disagree with your PD does Demi damage to Undead, but not as strongly as the above.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amMore dubious stuff:

100% knockback throw stone


It seems like it would a nice yet subtle boost to Squire since by definition of your goals, you'd be forbidden to give it anything else.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amSamurai hit self?


Eh, that probably won't accomplish much, especially with access to Murasame and Kiyomori. If anything, it just seems like it'd make the AI even easier since I'd see it killing itself with Draw Out pretty much all the time.

Draw Outs just need to be evadeable and probably lose smart-targeting since we can't have them cost MP or give them CTs unfortunately. I'd argue the same goes for Elemental, though it's a much lesser offender.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amSummon no smart targeting?


And make the only Faith-based magic that not named Raise (2) even weaker from vanilla? Uh....

Summon Magic perhaps needs to hit less hard than it does, but it doesn't need to lose smart-targeting, especially how much MP everything costs. The only drastic change to Summon Magic that needs to be made is to Golem, which either needs to die or become like mass Protect like it was in the other games. It probably shouldn't become mass Shell because a) physical attacks will probably still be ultimately better than magical ones if we're sticking this close to vanilla, b) Priest need something over Summoner besides just revival (unless you're going to change Fairy too, which I don't think you should even as redundant as it is; at least don't change it to Revival I'd argue you) and c) as aforementioned, it has historical precedent IIRC.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amRanged knight breaks OR unevadable


This is probably the thing under the "dubious" section that I'm most divided about. On the one hand, making Knight breaks have a fixed range allows Knights to at least do something from range and makes them better at using their skills than classes that have longer reaching weapons. On the other hand, fixed range would probably be...strange-looking, especially if we're talking about the equipment breaks and if we're talking about the stat-breaks, then arguably they should just become like 1.3's Ruin Spells.

With regards to the inability to be dodged, I'd argue you know, at least for equipment breaks, which probably need it the most unfortunately. However, due to the fact that equipment breaks happen to do damage if used against a unique that isn't wearing (that type of) equipment, you'd basically be giving Knights innate Concentrate. Just looking at 1.3 Thieves should show you how stupid innate Concentrate can end up being, especially on a unit that already hits rather hard and can tank well.

Speaking of Thieves and Concentrate, I'd argue that Steal [Equipment] should become unevadeable, though. It's bad enough that all of its triggers the Countergrasp ability. Being evadeable and having low vertical tolerance is just adding insult to injury, especially since enemies didn't scale in vanilla & using Glain's (necessary) ASM takes away the level-up exploit and there wasn't much to steal in vanilla that was unique anyway. (There was only like, what, six things between Blood Sword and the Genji Gear? Everything else that was rather either had to be poached or found using Move-Find item.)

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amLower range Lancer jumps


Kill Level Jump8. There. Done.

Hell, I'd argue that you should kill Level Jump2 and Level Jump4 as well, but you can just make those so that the AI doesn't bother wasting time on them.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amLimited calc skillset


Not sure why this is under "dubious" when it is pretty much mandatory to balancing the game unless you just plan to replace all of the Math Skill, which seems rather counter to you wanting to change as little as possible. It's just a shame that we can't restrict certain spells--CT5Holy--to certain parameters.

As such, I think that all the "big" spells that Math Skill can affect probably need to no longer be accessible to it. I'd also argue that the CT parameter needs to die out right considering how 99% of the time it's used, it's used with the 5 parameter.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amNerfed Orlandu


Pretty much needs to happen. I think the 1.3 version of him is more or less ideal in most instances.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amSpecial boco?


As hypocritical of me as this will seem given how big a role (relatively) I'm trying to give Boco in Embargo, I'd say "no". Or, rather, "No, unless you also made Rad, Lavian and Alicia special classes", which I doubt that you would want to waste room on, at least ability-wise.

I suppose you could just buff Boco's stats but otherwise keep him a Yellow Chocobo, but that seems kind of half-assed.

Quote from: Asmo X on July 08, 2011, 02:28:51 amEquip change all


As RavenofRazgriz explained, this is a horrible idea.

Quote from: Zaen on July 08, 2011, 02:31:03 am
I think that Meliadoul should have a unique skillset, in that Orlandu doesn't get those abilities. Also, balance out WP. Nothing should have much more than 20 WP, especially given Throw and how high SP and PA can get.



Edit: Orlandu:
Stasis Sword
Split Punch
Lightning Stab
Icewolf Bite
Blastar Punch
Night Sword
Dark Sword

More:
Speed Break/Ruin -20 CT
Less W-ev for cloth? It's currently 50%.
Stronger bows
Perfumes/Bags? What to do with them?
PA*WP for Bags, Knight Swords, Katanas?


I agree pretty much agree with all of this outside of Meliadoul absolutely needing a unique skillset that's completely independent of Orlandu and that Bags should become PA*WP. Simply put: Screw bags. If anything, the gender-exclusive equipment needs to be weakened, not strengthened.

Quote from: maugustus1 on July 08, 2011, 05:40:04 pm(imho orlandu was put there to be beastly!)


Orlandu can still be the strongest special character overall without being able to fly around the map, OHKOing everything in his path. Heavenly Knight or not, the vanilla version of him dumbs down the game almost as much as things like Speed Save/Cheer Song/Slow Song and other stats stuff, Hamedo, MP Switch and some other things, which says a lot (even as inevitably broken as Final Fantasy games always are).

TL;DR Suggestion List:

  • Keep Spears as the only weapon to boost Jump.

  • Make Throw Stone 100% Knockback.

  • Don't make Draw Out hit the caster. Just make it non-discriminating and allow it to be evaded.

  • Perhaps allow for Elemental to be evaded.

  • Perhaps make Summon Magic do slightly less damage, but let it keep smart-targeting and instead boost other Faith-based magic.

  • Either completely kill Golem or let it add Protect.

  • If Knight gets ranged breaks, then it should be the stat breaks ala 1.3.

  • Knight's equipment breaks should become more likely hit, but should NOT become unable to be dodged.

  • Thief's equipment steals should become unavoidable.

  • Kill Jump Level8.

  • Lessen the amount spells that Math Skill has access to.

  • Kill the CT Parameter.

  • Give Calculators better stats or, at least, close-to-average speed.

  • "Nerf" Orlandu to his 1.3 self or at least use that as template skill set-wise.

  • Don't bother making Boco a special character unless you're going to do the same for Rad, Lavian and Alicia.

  • Do NOT give everyone innate Equip Change.

  • Make Speed Break/Speed Ruin add Slow or -20 CT if possible.

  • Make Speed Save add +CT rather than +Speed.

  • Kill all other speed-stat increasing or decreasing abilities like Cheer Song, Slow Dance and Ramza's Scream.

  • Kill Hamedo.

  • Kill MP Switch or, less preferably, do the 1.3 thing of having it separated by gender from Move-MP Up.

  • Cap WP for all weapons at 20.

  • Give Cloths less W-EV.

  • Give Aegis Shield less M-EV so it doesn't single-handedly shut down Magic with Abandon. Alternately, kill Abandon.

  • Strengthen weak weapon (types) that aren't Bags, specially (Long)Bows, Staves and maybe Rods.

  • Weaken all gender-exclusive equipment.

  • Make Knightswords and Katana's damage formula PA*WP.

  • Change or kill Level Blast and Please Eat. (Heh. Completely forgot about Please Eat.)

"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

July 08, 2011, 06:36:56 pm #12 Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 06:58:34 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Math Skill Idea:

QuoteHeight
Exp
Level

4
5
Prime

Fire
Bolt
Ice
Poison
Cure
Regen
Reraise
Esuna
Slow
Don't Move
Float
Demi
Blind
Pray Faith
Zombie
Dispel


It's meant to be a bit edgy, and includes Pray Faith to help empower the weaker Fire/Bolt/Ice/Cure Spells, but also fully embraces the two-sidedness of Math Skill by trying to make it difficult to easy-out the backlash.  This encourages element absorb to try and block the damage spells, and a status list that's both powerful but can easily backfire if used incorrectly.  It also excludes some skills intentionally, such as Raise, Haste, high end damage, and Don't Act - meaning if the player wants a lot of one thing instead of a mix of everything, there's still huge reason to use the sourced skillsets.

Everything on the basic change list looks okay, given what you're trying to do.  As far as Orlandu goes - I think his 1.3 skillset was fine, but his stats were too heavily nerfed.  If he couldn't match Setiemsion + far-weakened Chaos Blade via Excalibur + Bracer, there wouldn't be much making him better than the ladies outside of Night Sword.

As for PA/MA/SP - Xifanie has a hack that buffs Maintenance to block breaks on these and puts an upper/lower cap on how much they can be boosted or broken.  For something meant to embrace vanilla's faults while making them less outright dumb, this seems perfect here - you can keep Accumulate, Yell, Speed Break, etc. in all their vanilla deliciousness while removing the cheesier strategies most of them created in one masterful stroke.

Knight Breaks - this is again one I think 1.3 did right, except if you do the above Speed Ruin can actually ruin their Speed instead of adding Slow.

Samurai hitting self seems like a bad idea.  Then the Draw Outs mostly just become Self-Destruct like skills that all eat consumables, and Samurai have innately low HP.  The problem is that hardcoding prevents any real elegant solution from working, so the best route is to just weaken them by a noticeable margin, personally, probably more than 1.3 did considering their unevadable instant area damage with only a Gil-related cost, which is pretty sweet.  Aside - Katana, Knight Sword, Bags should all be PA*WP, yes.  I've even got FDC's Formula Hack rigged in a Spreadsheet in my Shoppe to do that for you.

Summon losing Smart Targeting makes it too much like Black Magic for my tastes, considering how close it already is to being Black Magic.  Golem needs to die in a fire though.

100% Knockback Throw Stone is fine considering how little use it gets even with that.

Special Boco is meh.  Why?  You get 16 character slots.  Usually that's Ramza, 4 of the 6 starting Generics, and all your primary Specials and subquest Specials, assuming you get Byblos.  There's just no room for new Specials without removing an old one unless you want to tell players they either need to give up one of their lovingly crafted Generics or not be able to have every unique unit.  That's not a good thing.  

The Damned

(Lol at Raven and I posting walls of text so close to each other.)

I pretty much agree with everything that RavenofRazgriz said outside of Golem needing to die; it can easily just be changed to something far, far less stupid that still has historical ties to other Final Fantasy. It's not terribly necessary for it to be saved, true, and I will admit that Summoner has a close place to my cold heart considering that I was almost the first person to finish a Summoner SSCC--freaking Altima and Zodiac compat--just on how stupidly powerful Golem was. That said, I figure if something has a historical form that's less broken, then that should be at least considered before it's eliminated, especially it doesn't step on something else. Golem inflicting Protect steps far less on Priest's toes than Fairy being made to inflict Revival as in 1.3., even as much as FFT perhaps needs more revival skills.

Anyway, I strongly support his proposed changes to Math Skill, especially given that he's killed CT Parameter as well, as well the Maintenance thing. I was aware of Xifanie's Maintenance hack, but I thought the stat break aspect was still acting wonky so I didn't want to mention it. If her hack works completely, though, then sure, go for broke with that.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

Zaen

Why was 4 taken out of Math Skill? CT is gone, 3 is gone. It's not that OP really to use 4 still.
"Oh, God!! The Hokuten!!" ~Guard, Sand Rat Cellar

RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: Zaen on July 08, 2011, 06:54:06 pm
Why was 4 taken out of Math Skill? CT is gone, 3 is gone. It's not that OP really to use 4 still.


For some reason I thought they had 2 instead of 4.  (Notice my factors are 2-5-Prime and not 4-5-Prime, lol leaving in 2 but not 3.)  Fixing that.

FFMaster

What was the reason for removing 3 again? If it was to remove Level 3 <spell>, then i think 3 can come back. Once your team hits level 99, the only thing left on the Calc skillset is Height, making him extremely weak at that point. I personally would favour Calculator still having some power at level 99.

As an alternate route to removing Degenerators (and Level Blast, thanks for the catch), we can make all stat growths equal. I have no preference to either method.

For the stat breaks, I'm not sure about. Speed breaking needs to go, imo, no questions asked. For the other stat breaks, they are strong for longer battles (Zodiac battles) but otherwise, I find them quite meh. We could extend Maintenance to block Stat Breaks and give it to all the ??? Monsters I guess?
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Eternal

Speaking of Lucavi, they'll need to be given immunity to some debuffs they can currently be vulnerable to. *glares at Ultima II*
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RavenOfRazgriz

Quote from: FFMaster on July 08, 2011, 09:25:36 pm
What was the reason for removing 3 again? If it was to remove Level 3 <spell>, then i think 3 can come back. Once your team hits level 99, the only thing left on the Calc skillset is Height, making him extremely weak at that point. I personally would favour Calculator still having some power at level 99.


Could always remove 5 instead of 3.

Quote from: FFMaster on July 08, 2011, 09:25:36 pmFor the stat breaks, I'm not sure about. Speed breaking needs to go, imo, no questions asked. For the other stat breaks, they are strong for longer battles (Zodiac battles) but otherwise, I find them quite meh. We could extend Maintenance to block Stat Breaks and give it to all the ??? Monsters I guess?


Doing that just makes stat breaks pointless.  "They're only good against ???, make them useless against ???."

I brought up Xifanie's hack because it BOTH extents Maintenance to that AND allows for an upper cap, meaning you can say "PA can't be reduced more than 5 levels" and not need to Maintenance the ??? units and still have a failsafe to not make it lolbork.

FFMaster

Well, there are other places to use them. I can see myself using stat breaks against Wiggy or any battle where I want to specifically drag out the battle to steal equipment(Elmdor and Balk off the top of my head). We could possibly add some good poachables to a few units along the way as well. Any method works for me personally.
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