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Arena battle videos and discussion

Started by PX_Timefordeath, August 04, 2010, 06:49:51 pm

Malroth

September 19, 2011, 02:21:03 am #780 Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 02:34:12 am by Malroth
Thanks to Raven I managed to get a memory card with my first strike team vs several others and ran several matches. I haven't set up any recording software yet But here's the anylisis of the matches i've run so far.


3-0 my favor
Dispite the mismatched score these were actually very close,  His Geomancy Mediators were able to do consistent damage and were fairly tanky, the thieves were doing a decent job of keeping one or two units alive. However on the large map The mimed Lore was too much and the mediators dropped before the engagement began, and in the small maps the Chemists couldn't keep up with the combination of stop procs from Nameless dance and mimed Bio2s.  One match almost went in the Cowards favor when a Mimic Davaron got off on one of the scholars before the Lore spamming even began combined with a thief redirecting Bio2 on my mime twice killing her,  however lucky slow procs allowed my team to sandbag back into the game and I eventually won the war of attrition


3-0 my favor
Total slaughter
Poor bastards never got a turn off regardless of large or small map


3-0 My Favor
His team hits rediculiously hard and he's fast enough to start inflicting damage before the lores hit,  however the first wave of Lore spam drops his support units leaving him only with a Berserked samurai and a Talk skill bard. The lack of Rez hurt him hard and he diddn't manage to ever recover.


0-3  voodoo's favor
For the first time i've gotten to see team voodoo in action they work surprisingly well, Voodoo's White magic samurai and Crossbow sniping monk easily weathered 2 rounds of lore spam allowing the Sam to raise everybody while the monk would take out at least 1 unit sometimes 2,  Then the newly revived Black mage would proceed to destroy first strikes survivors via flare spam.


1-2 My loss
Ravens no damage chemistry team showed its potency as the most powerful team in the thread,  Chemists laughed off Lore spam as if it was a mosquito, easlily healing the damage with a single potion before closing into range. Bio's did decent damage to the Chemists and took one out on several occasions but due to the stupidity of my mime this was not echoed into residual damage on the other chemist so any progress was quickly undone by phoenix downs and hi-potions.  Polka Polka and Slow dance ground on during the extended matchups, offsetting any gains i was making via PA save and eventually weakenign my team to uselessness. I only won 1 of the 3 matches and I attribute that one to several lucky misses of death sentence which let my scholars live to bio them.


2-1 my favor
This all Lancer team is pretty sweet, They have a variety of offensive and Defensive variation that makes them very hard to take out with a single attack type,  They also have some pretty potent healing power combined with strong solid hits. The Inclusion of Two Damage split units also served as a WONDERFUL counter to my AOE elemental healing via distribute. That being said,  having 2 of your units being killed and a third critical before the fight begins put him at a significant disadvantage,  That being said his units were resilliant enough to overcome this Initial handicap and win via superior hitting  power and solid sandbaging on one occasion and almost again on the second


2-1 my favor
Bolt throwing White mage saves the day for Gentle spark preventing a 3-0 sweep by taking out my scholars before the first wave of Lores started,  However on the other two maps They weren't as lucky,  the White Mage and Mediator get hit pretty hard and while He does pack a Damage split unit that sometimes cancels out my distributes, its on a unit with less bravery than team Gungir's so it wasn't interupting as consistently.  His Mediator was fairly resillient but given that nobody on the team could either negate nameless dance's status or absorb a combined Earth/Cold elemental assault he just couldn't heal fast enough once the Lore rain started




RavenOfRazgriz

September 19, 2011, 02:40:29 pm #782 Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 02:55:34 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Watching the others right now, but:

This battle went exactly like I said it would.  However, I need to request a rematch.  You said you caught my update but you didn't catch what I actually changed I think.  DERP is supposed to have Witch Hunt in addition to Slow Dance and apparently does not, based on the fact it was never used once between both matchups and the AI spams the hell out of it when the enemy has any MP at all and it has Witch Hunt available.  Only requesting it because Witch Hunt will have a huge effect on this matchup - Battle Song costs 5 MP, remember, and double Battle Song is a large part of what makes Mando win, possibly more than the missing Echo Grass since death still recovers Silence if he isn't doing so much damage he can essentially oneshot both Chemists in a single round.  I'm 95% sure I can either win or have games that aren't horrible shutouts with Witch Hunt, which is the only reason I'm requesting a rematch.  I wouldn't really care if it were something I didn't think would mean much anyway, but this is an important missing element.


Yeah... if he overpowered me, he was overpowering Eternal, since Eternal has even less hazing than I do from the looks of it.  This is also why I need to request the rematch based on Witch Hunt - those Battle Songs are what push Mando's Samurai especially into insane damage levels since he's sitting on a 4x multiplier to each PA point gained.  Herp innate Doublehand + Attack UP + Berserk derp.  Nothing can tank that shit.  I told FFMaster innate Doublehand was a terrible idea. :p

Barren

I can make the rematch for you Raven tomorrow. My bad on missing DERP's witch hunt
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Malroth

Yes nothing can tank a berserk 2 handed samurai, but it only has minimum speed, minimum movement and can only attack at a 1 panel range with no defensive gear or skills and max fury,  its literally the definition of a glass cannon just as your team is the definition of the unbreakable Wall.  I'd say at this point battle song's presence or absence is largely redundant  that samurai Is going to kill whatever is dumb enough to be within 3 panels of it during its turn regardless and the extra Patk only serves to make the huge numbers become even more nedlessly huge.

RavenOfRazgriz

September 19, 2011, 03:54:10 pm #785 Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 05:23:31 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: Barren on September 19, 2011, 03:29:35 pm
I can make the rematch for you Raven tomorrow. My bad on missing DERP's witch hunt


It's cool.  I wouldn't even ask for the rematch but it can have a huge effect on who wins, depending on how other factors in the match go.

Quote from: Malroth on September 19, 2011, 03:37:28 pm
Yes nothing can tank a berserk 2 handed samurai, but it only has minimum speed, minimum movement and can only attack at a 1 panel range with no defensive gear or skills and max fury,  its literally the definition of a glass cannon just as your team is the definition of the unbreakable Wall.  I'd say at this point battle song's presence or absence is largely redundant  that samurai Is going to kill whatever is dumb enough to be within 3 panels of it during its turn regardless and the extra Patk only serves to make the huge numbers become even more nedlessly huge.


In terms of vs. me, you're honestly very, very wrong.  Without any Battle Songs, Mando's Samurai and Archer together can only put a Chemist into Critical, and a knifewhack is needed to finish the job.  A single Battle Song buffs the damage on Mando's Samurai by about 30, after all his multipliers and my Unyielding are factored in, and buffs the Archer by about 18.  (The Archer just has huge base WP from its crossbow and Attack UP.)  1-2 Battle Songs allow him to kill the Chemists easily as he begins breaking 300 damage, whereas he takes a few turns to do so without them.  Witch Hunt prevents more than a sum of 4 Battle Songs or so from going off, and Polka Polka offsets the ones that do, so it should be pretty clear why this makes a huge difference.  Landing a Death Sentence on that Samurai is also huge with all these factors, because it cuts his multiplier from being 4x to about 2.5x since Berserk is lost.  Etc.

For Facial Reconstruction vs. everyone else, the Battle Songs probably are only so useful, but when that Samurai and Archer begin dishing 400-450 out each, defensive oriented teams like Eternal's seemed to be that can't shrug off damage the way mine can just fold even harder.  Like you said, it's a glass cannon, and if you can't paralyze it, the only way to win is to kill it first.  I was commenting that Eternal can't do either, and I was missing a key tool in paralyzing when Barren recorded it, and not some random thing that wouldn't have mattered anyway.

Pierce

I blame my loss solely on Auto-Potion being buggy and not working (Just kidding, I'm not so vain as to think that's the only reason I got my ass kicked). I thought there were a couple points where things might turn around for me, but your team got the best of me. GG Barren.


Holy shit. The 800 damage hit was the highlight of that match. Not sure how I feel about the balance there, but meh.
Ignorance itself is a crime! - Miluda

Barren

  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

RavenOfRazgriz

Barren, you used the completely wrong team this time somehow.  The Chemists are supposed to have Chantage and not Magic Ring (which you had right in the previous match but somehow wrong in this one?), you have X-Potion on the Chemists when it's supposed to be on the Dancers and vice-verse, at the very least.  Y U SO DERP v Facial Reconstruction is not your day, bro.  When you first recorded me vs Mando, they were supposed to be:

Chemist Y and Chemist U - Hi-Potion, Soft, Bandage, Phoenix Down, Blackmail, Death Sentence, Mimic Daravon, No Reaction, Unyielding, Move-HP UP, H Bag, No Left, Black Hood, Brigandine, Chantage

Dancer SO - Polka Polka, X-Potion, Hi-Ether, Antidote, Maiden's Kiss, Holy Water, HP Restore, Defense UP, P Bag, No Left, Green Beret, Black Costume, Iron Boots.

Dancer DERP - Witch Hunt, Slow Dance, X-Potion, Hi-Ether, Antidote, Maiden's Kiss, Holy Water, HP Restore, Defense UP, P Bag, No Left, Green Beret, Black Costume, Iron Boots.

I don't know how you went from having the almost correct team to an even more incorrect one when I intentionally didn't update my post before you posted the rematch, lol.    I'm only posting this here because I already updated my team again to have both Dancer SO and Dancer DERP running Ether, Finger Guard, Fly over HP Restore, so my post no longer corresponds to what the team should've been as of this match.  Whether you rematch again and which team version you use is up to you, just if you do, make sure you're using either the above team or the current one, please, because that team you used just now was really wrong, lol.

I think people are going to smile watching my team die so quickly even though it's completely wrong regardless, though, so let them have their false hope while it lasts.  I've run the match enough using the above team and my new one to know how it generally pans out so I'm indifferent as to whether you rematch it, so it's up to you whether to replay it a third time.


RavenOfRazgriz

Nice touch with the music.  I do think Octagon Rod is bugged, holy shit 100% Frog is the only way to explain that.  Doesn't help that Eternal's Paladins do almost 0 damage without Decapitate procs from the looks of it.


Look at that, another team that wins through indirect kills.  People after my own heart.  That Chemist isn't bulky enough for my tastes, but the team looks effective enough.  I've considered similar things, especially in terms of the Oracle, since Oracles can access a nice range of statuses if you want them to.  I'd use different setups, but I like the team.  Gotta feel bad for The Damned though, he has no luck when against indirect killers, it seems.


...What the fuck?  Why do his Wiznaibus and Witch Hunt land consistent damage and mine don't?  My ISO isn't dirty, and my Witch Hunt damage was randomized in your recording too, so I'm highly confused.  Outside of that, wow, dat PA Save.  If the Thief could've gotten in range more, Malroth might've been screwed, but that hazing had just enough DPS to keep him on Hi-Potion duty.  Same with Speed Save, the +20CTR version wouldn't have been a big setback if CT5Holy would've had more opportunities to attack.  Those Stop procs were definitely the clincher, though.   Third game especially, the Mime had just fallen and cut out Malroth's DPS by a good deal, but double Stop landed just in time to allow Malroth to win, else I think all the Speed Save would've allowed CT5Holy to recover and cut down those Scholars since he'd have been be more than able to out-heal them.

Malroth

The reason I'm able to do consistent damage with Wizanabus and you aren't Is because Both it and Witch Hunt are based on PA and Fury, as well as being affected by Attack Up.That being said   I'm still not 100% sold on your use of Iron boots Dancers,  Have you concidered the possibility of Cacusha wearing female monks with a dance secondary?  They could serve as additinoal sources of death sentence as well as tanky healers/rez bots even if they were running minimum Fury.

RavenOfRazgriz

September 22, 2011, 02:45:00 pm #792 Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 02:45:53 pm by RavenOfRazgriz
Quote from: Malroth on September 22, 2011, 02:15:01 pm
The reason I'm able to do consistent damage with Wizanabus and you aren't Is because Both it and Witch Hunt are based on PA and Fury, as well as being affected by Attack Up.That being said   I'm still not 100% sold on your use of Iron boots Dancers,  Have you concidered the possibility of Cacusha wearing female monks with a dance secondary?  They could serve as additinoal sources of death sentence as well as tanky healers/rez bots even if they were running minimum Fury.


Dance isn't affected by the Fury hack.  It does the same damage to every unit as long as the target doesn't have Unyielding or Defense UP.  You missed what I said - my damage is randomized, from 8-25.  The damage should always be consistent between the four targets you hit as long as they don't have a defensive support, which in my matchup vs Mando, none of his units do, and my damage changes between Witch Hunts on the same unit.  So trust me, there is something very, very wrong going on there, that wasn't present on my awful slapped together Wiznaibus Dancers in 1.30 that have the exact same stats.  Your Knight and Mime not exhibiting the same behavior is odd.

Not running Iron Boost reduces all defense by 33%, and there's no way in hell I'm doing that.  My latest update did give them Punch Art secondary with Secret Fist, Stigma Magic, Chakra, and Revive, so they have the ability to end games even after the Chemists go down now and can revive each other on any map they start adjacent on, etc.  Stigma Magic also cures Silence, meaning less pain about missing Echo Grass, and more awesome once Echo Grass is added back in.  I don't particularly need Cacuscha's buff either.  Ribbon is the only one I'd consider.  Base Monk HP and Ribbon means I get a bonus of 10 HP, but Monks also have 30 less MP and 2 less PA, meaning MP needs to be restored more often and Witch Hunt is weaker.  It does have an extra Speed point, though, and that and the Status defense makes switching the Primary and Secondary Jobs around somewhat appealing, but dropping down to 50/25 Chakras just seems beyond awful.  60/30 is bad enough as it is.  

The main thing is, with Finger Guard, Witch Hunt, 40 Faith, and Iron Boots, I don't really need any of Ribbon's status defenses besides Charm and maybe Frog, since Frog's on a couple weapons and Charm is the only one from a skill that I don't ruin the hit rate of via my defenses.  If I dislike this Punch Art variation, I'll probably go back to Dance/Item and test 4 Chemists because innate Throw Item is boss and the only decrement going from Chemist to Dancer is to PA - but it's 6 PA points, which does hurt Witch Hunt quite a big deal, and Witch Hunt is really important in the newer versions, more than I think people realize.

formerdeathcorps

September 23, 2011, 02:49:19 am #793 Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 03:08:12 am by formerdeathcorps
The dance bug was created by an inadvertent error introduced when we changed it so abilities that weren't flagged as weapon strike or ranged weapon could use formula 01 (since before, they used to have 0 WP and defaulted to the fist formula).  Dancer actually uses the weapon formula + the vanilla state of fist formulas to get PA * Br% as XA.  However, since we removed that check, XA is now the XA of your formula.  Thus, Raven was doing random damage with his witch hunt dancers.

To fix this, apply the following.
BATTLE.BIN
Offset: 0x1223B8
8117060C

EDIT: Dancers now take the formula PA + Y instead of PA + WP.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

The Damned

(Good thing to know with regards to Dances.)

Finally updated my team submission post. I think that's longest I've gone without updating it. Apologies for not seeing your PM earlier, Barren. I've been trying to get done with stuff with regards to Embargo and a few other things (to no avail, as ever).

Anyway, a new team there as a promised. As usual, it will probably flail about and accomplish nothing. As always, thanks for the videos.

Quote from: RavenOfRazgriz on September 22, 2011, 01:19:21 pm
Look at that, another team that wins through indirect kills.  People after my own heart.  That Chemist isn't bulky enough for my tastes, but the team looks effective enough.  I've considered similar things, especially in terms of the Oracle, since Oracles can access a nice range of statuses if you want them to.  I'd use different setups, but I like the team.  Gotta feel bad for The Damned though, he has no luck when against indirect killers, it seems.


I just have no luck in general, though of course it doesn't help that half of my teams suck and pretty much none of them do heavy damage outside of "Gravity, Well" and none of them focus on status since focusing on status before 1.31 was kinda...pointless & none of them are new. Well, were new.

I suppose it is extra ironic, though, since I'm pretty sure I overall try to protect against status the most out of everyone. It's just that Promo pretty much has no defenses against status and sucked--god, Firebrand was such a useless POS--so I got steamrolled, especially when you throw in my stubbornly horrible luck. (Yay at not getting a single Shuriken proc. I think that's literally a first for ARENA.)
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

RavenOfRazgriz

If it makes you feel any better, Shuriken didn't proc because something unrelated that got applied in 1.32 broke it, not because your luck is terrible.  Already fixed for 1.33, though.


Celdia


I knew I should've left the Dances off the skill list. Not that I think it would have made a huge difference but at least it wouldn't have been so much pointless dance spamming against status immune units.

Barren, that music rocked. I'm glad someone caught the reference. ^_^
  • Modding version: PSX
  • Discord username: Celdia#0

Barren

Quote from: Celdia on September 23, 2011, 03:58:33 pm

I knew I should've left the Dances off the skill list. Not that I think it would have made a huge difference but at least it wouldn't have been so much pointless dance spamming against status immune units.

Barren, that music rocked. I'm glad someone caught the reference. ^_^


Of course Celdia :) my late grandfather used to listen to the rat pack way back in the day
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

SoySauceMaster

Quote from: Celdia on September 23, 2011, 03:58:33 pm

I knew I should've left the Dances off the skill list. Not that I think it would have made a huge difference but at least it wouldn't have been so much pointless dance spamming against status immune units.

Barren, that music rocked. I'm glad someone caught the reference. ^_^



Well, if some of the Elemental procs would have triggered, you could have made a come-back. Your Bards did a good chunk of damage, it's just that you didn't have any designated tanks or healers. Did your Dancers have Wiznaibus? They could've done some decent damage with all that PA.