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☢ ☢ ☢ FFT 1.3 AI Tournament Season 5 ☢ ☢ ☢ [FINISHED] Post-Discussion

Started by Wiz, May 27, 2011, 12:04:42 am

Barren

Good job all loser's refs so far in this tournament....every match you've put up has been very exciting :) thanks again fdc, piercewise and gaignun for doing the loser's bracket matches! you three have been doing a tremendous job for us, keep up the good work
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Melancthon

GG phil (sorry to see a fellow Frogger go) and CT, and thanks for the good wishes!

Fear the Frog
Just a collaborator plotting collaboration.
"WHATS ST AJORA'S DEAL DUDE!?"

formerdeathcorps

June 25, 2011, 02:41:06 am #302 Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 02:43:35 am by formerdeathcorps

Even though I won, I'm sad to see Kokojo's squad go.  He has a very scrappy squad capable of beating anyone.  It's a good measure of quality that he managed to beat 2 tank squads (one with haste, even) with a seemingly inferior squad (lower HP, lower speed/no haste, lower evasion, lower movement, lower physical damage output) and only lost 2-1 to squads that usually sweep most foes 2-0.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

formerdeathcorps

June 26, 2011, 05:44:59 am #303 Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 05:46:17 am by formerdeathcorps
Double post, but here's the next two rounds from me (since we should be going in numerical order anyways).

Round 3:
Loser's Bracket #39
Loser's Bracket #40

Round 4:
Loser's Bracket #41
Loser's Bracket #42
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Barren

June 26, 2011, 09:27:22 am #304 Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 09:30:00 am by Barren
ZX played the game!


Go back to Gaurdiana Shining Force :P


Wow.....just wow


Good matchup
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

Wiz

Again, the Breaks have proven to be powerful

Ahh, BG's Ninja was on Sandbag Duty, I would've had better chances against him :(

Kiku OP. Good Compat Kiku from a 21 MA Wizard = 312 PER target.

Lot's of back and forth, but Lijj still prevailed due to Kiku


I request a rematch.

The grounds being my Teams Order in the spreadsheet's suppose to be 3,2,4,1,/Sm,Nj,Ln,Tm, not 1,2,3,4/Tm,Nj,Sm,Ln. Specifically, this affects the metagame in Rounds 1 and 2 because OGB's ninja gets an opening turn and throws w.e. at my ninja/samurai, besides the TM due to not being able to get in range to hit her.

tl;dr Basically, the proper placement allows the TM to cast haste off the bat/on the opening turn and prevents herself going into sandbag mode right away from a throw by OGB's ninja.

If I win this rematch, a third one will occur as the tiebreaker and when selecting maps, just use a program like random.org to unbiasedly select the fighting destinations. Thanks.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown

Mando

You know I think in a sense if the unit order is wrong it is fair it gets re-done.
So all in all I think a rematch would be fair so long as the maps stay the same on the first rematch, and change if a tiebreaker is needed.

^ New FFAT website made by St4r!

Barren

Quote from: Mando on June 26, 2011, 09:14:15 pm
You know I think in a sense if the unit order is wrong it is fair it gets re-done.
So all in all I think a rematch would be fair so long as the maps stay the same on the first rematch, and change if a tiebreaker is needed.


hopefully if fdc will take the time to post a rematch he could
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
You dare cross blades with me?

OhGodBears!

Good compat Kiku is riiiidiculous!  Also the beast mode Lancer crits.  (Ps. Nice almost clone Lancer Wiz!)

In terms of a rematch, I don't really care either way what you guys decide, although I think it would be unfair to whoever it was that didn't get a rematch before the piggy MA was changed in round 1 (unless I am remembering that wrong?) which was a bigger deal than unit placement which is pretty minor when you consider that the maps are just random anyway.  I know that I lucked out to this win with some crits/procs so I figure I'm not the favorite if we have a rematch.  Either way, it's all in good fun and I'm just happy to be in more matches.  Also I figure I should move on in the vain hope that Kokojo will return to announce the finals once I make it there. :P

Good fights Wiz and thanks for all the work you've done putting all this on

formerdeathcorps

June 27, 2011, 04:30:30 am #309 Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 04:56:23 am by formerdeathcorps

Some of this can be blamed on me.  Since I used FFTastic instead of the spreadsheets (mostly due to raw stat errors and other glitches in the memcard generator), I entered team data from the post Wiz made on the teams themselves.  They did not contain team ordering, so I presumed that Wiz typed up the team data as they would appear in battle (i.e. the spoilers for each team contained the submissions from the participants in the correct ordering), since anyone who would be testing their teams in advance for the S5 tournament to predict how well their submitted team will do probably should know such information about opposing teams.  Checking the spreadsheet again, it seems most teams used the 1/2/3/4 ordering, so most of my existing videos (besides sprite colors) should be mostly glitch free.

although I think it would be unfair to whoever it was that didn't get a rematch before the piggy MA was changed in round 1 (unless I am remembering that wrong?)

You misremember; dinosaur lost his first match despite the 90% charm.  The argument is that if 90% charm failed to secure the win, 65% charm would clearly fail as well.

The grounds being my Teams Order in the spreadsheet's suppose to be 3,2,4,1,/Sm,Nj,Ln,Tm, not 1,2,3,4/Tm,Nj,Sm,Ln. Specifically, this affects the metagame in Rounds 1 and 2 because
OGB's ninja gets an opening turn and throws w.e. at my ninja/samurai, besides the TM due to not being able to get in range to hit her.

I do agree with the content of your argument, but only for Match 1 (since you won despite that handicap on Match 2).  However, there's technically one match I screwed up much earlier.  Efrate's team's order was not 1/2/3/4, and thus was wrong as well, and her match against BlameGod was very early in the tournament.  Considering that she also lost 2-1 in a close series of matches (both hers and BG's squad had charm and R3 between the two dragged back-and-forth), if I redo your match, she would have legitimate claim for me to redo her match (and if she wins, I'd have to redo the rest of the bracket).  Furthermore, by the same argument of organizer errors, whoever lost to Zenius in Round 1 in the Winner's Bracket could ask for a rematch since Zenius' samurai had A Save (which is impossible on a male).  He could just as well argue (groundlessly) that Zenius won because of A Save.  Similarly, zxpr0jk could ask for a rematch against AeroGP in Round 1 of the Winner's Bracket since his thief didn't have Move-HP UP and that may have been decisive in his Match 2 loss (which zxpr0jk would have a case for, given how close Match 2 became).  Hence, I can't say I don't have at least some reluctance in redoing your match because of the potential to set the precedents mentioned above, which may then rewrite entire brackets.

In all likelihood however, I'd probably do it if enough people demand it and zxpr0jk and Efrate are satisfied with their results.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

The Damned

(I'm relatively indifferent to the necessity of a rematch along lines of only order, how legitimately order may sometimes affect things depending on the map. However, it is indeed--unfortunately--a relatively slippery slope, if only because other, more obvious instances didn't get rematches much earlier. If the majority want it, then I see no reason not re-run it to though.)

Well, the Loser's Bracket is...getting dominated by Kikuichimonji now. I can't say that I didn't see this coming, even if I had desired otherwise.

Oh well. There's still time for it to ultimately play out differently--ah, the naivete of hoping against hope--and as I said before, there will be plenty of time to curse out Kikuichimonji after Season 5 is done.

Regardless, thanks for getting these done so quickly, formerdeathcorps, especially considering how lengthy your pre-battle commentary is compared to everyone else.
"Sorrow cannot be abolished. It is meaningless to try." - FFX's Yunalesca

"Good and evil are relative, but being a dick cannot be allowed." - Oglaf's Thaumaturge in "The Abyss"

"Well, see, the real magic isn't believing in yourself. The real magic is manipulating people by telling them to believe in themselves. The more you believe, the less you check facts."  - Oglaf's Vanka in "Conviction"

formerdeathcorps

June 27, 2011, 05:02:22 am #311 Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 05:11:30 am by formerdeathcorps
Quote from: The Damned on June 27, 2011, 04:55:22 am
Well, the Loser's Bracket is...getting dominated by Kikuichimonji now. I can't say that I didn't see this coming, even if I had desired otherwise.


Look at the other side of this problem.  Abandon squads are everywhere in S5.  You need a good way to check that, and the only reliable way other than concentrate + heavy damage (or the equivalent 2 swords + bull's eye) is draw out (and kiku in particular).

Other Options:
1) 15 PA monk + Repeating Fists or Bull's Eye runs into the problem of range, attacker durability, attacker speed, or AI (since AoE and ranged attacks like spin/wave fist and earth slash will be used if the computer sees two targets).
2) Any less PA for RF or Bull's Eye is just a slightly stronger version of dash, really (and is less effective than damage optimized geomancy).  Most geomancy squads don't optimize geomancy damage (because it often is a drain for marginal increases).
3) Summon/flare/holy squads can't guarantee both damage and not getting midcharged.
4) Relying on counter abilities like meatbone slash, sunken state (so you can hopefully be invisible and ignore evasion), damage split, counter magic, or counter flood is simply unreliable due to Br% activation and you are essentially at the mercy of their evasive unit attacking you with damage (and not say...don't act or armor break).
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

krilz

Some criticism on FDC's videos:

* The palettes are still not fixed. I may have missed why they're not there in the first place, but it's really confusing following some matches in close combat when the teams use the same jobs and have the same colors. I expected this to be fixed after watching the first matches, but it still hasn't which I find troubling.
* The mic recording is really not up too par compared with the other commentators which makes a bit bothersome to listen to. Compare this to that there is also no background music, it makes it a somewhat dull experience compared to the other commentators.
* You say "ok" a lot. Once I hung up on this, I can't get it out of my head and it gets annoying. It's a common mistake among people giving speeches that they use a phrase too often and it makes it hard to listen too.
* You lose track quite often of what you're talking about. One minute you could give a good rant about why one of the teams is going to win this and then immediately shift to something completely else ("ok, he's down") and then get back on track. In one of your videos I remember you talked a lot of about the effects of Frog2 (or something the like) and it went on for about one and half minute because you kept interrupting yourself.

Add all this together and I'm very close to just turning the sound off and watching them without commentary. Now I'm not saying this to bash on you, I'm really not, but I felt it needed to be said to improve your commentary and I hope you'll take this as constructive feedback.

formerdeathcorps

June 27, 2011, 07:23:07 am #313 Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 07:25:27 am by formerdeathcorps
Quote
The palettes are still not fixed. I may have missed why they're not there in the first place, but it's really confusing following some matches in close combat when the teams use the same jobs and have the same colors. I expected this to be fixed after watching the first matches, but it still hasn't which I find troubling.

Can't do that on FFTastic unless the save file was already edited by a spreadsheet.  If you all want, I can make all the P1 Squads Red and the P2 Squads Green (since I happen to have a save file with those colors).

Quote
* The mic recording is really not up too par compared with the other commentators which makes a bit bothersome to listen to. Compare this to that there is also no background music, it makes it a somewhat dull experience compared to the other commentators.

Two interrelated problems.  The microphone is on a laptop; the battle is recorded on a PC.  I'm forced to have this separation because the computer recording the battle cannot record any sound while the laptop recording the sound has a bad tendency to automatically cancel my sound recording program halfway into a long match (forcing me to manually gather the sound file backups together, let the video run, and then commentate after the fact, which is never as fresh as during the battle).  This tendency becomes a near certainty if I also run FFT at the required FPS on that laptop.  Hence, because of the dual use of computers, I can't speak into the microphone while watching the battle.  Knowing that I have limited sound, I'm not going to put BGM over my voice (since it'll make it even harder to hear).

As for the other two issues, I can certainly try to address those.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

zxpr0jk

I'm not really concerned with getting a rematch. Even when I did tests against AeroGP before the tourney started, I lost 10 to 1 matches. So the the move hp probably wouldn't have saved me. It's all in good fun and mistakes happen.

I'm surprised I made it as far as I did considering how out of wack my move and speed stats were. Definitely winning by the grace of the RNG many times. The tourney was a good pressure keg to refine. No idea why Underdog refused to use good compat charms in that last match though. Think I could have won that if she had.

Best of luck to everyone else. Looking forward to the next season.

FDC is definitely my favorite caster. The second round took a while to get uploaded, but no big deal. Just sort out the mic issues somehow and keep the pregame from dragging on too much and it'll be perfect. He doesn't parrot every little thing going on during matches, and tries to keep everything in perspective in the grand scheme of the match instead. Keep up the good work, FDC. Hope you get my matches in the future.

(Underdog will return after she visits the soldier office for some new recruits)


Gaignun

June 28, 2011, 09:53:21 pm #316 Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 10:24:35 pm by Gaignun
Ah, I had those recorded already, Wiz.  I reread my request and realized that I wasn't very clear.

Edit: It might be too late to replace your matches with mine.  I won't be specific, but revealing winners in yours as losers in mine would cause controversy.  Let's hold yours as official.

Melancthon

Ah, I guess it had to end sometime.  GG Lurker.  Gaigun, I would LOVE to know if my match ended differently in your version.  I promise not to start a controversy!


Just a collaborator plotting collaboration.
"WHATS ST AJORA'S DEAL DUDE!?"

formerdeathcorps


I'm willing to bet in Gaignun's videos, I lost to Kaz.  I got extremely lucky against that abandon ninja.  Those early KOs forced the Short Charge Oracle to use Raise2 rather than Paralyze, which allowed my team to permanently stay on the offense.


Gaignun, you still have 2 days before your trip.  Please post your version of those three matches (assuming you haven't already deleted them) and have Wiz archive them.  We might as well see what could have happened.
The destruction of the will is the rape of the mind.
The dogmas of every era are nothing but the fantasies of those in power; their dreams are our waking nightmares.

Piercewise

Hooray, my turn again!!

Match 46 LOSER'S BRACKET
Match 47 LOSER'S BRACKET
Match 48 LOSER'S BRACKET

And kicking off the next round...

Match 49 LOSER'S BRACKET

The matches are only getting better - can't wait to call the loser's bracket finals!
Seto: "Are you trying to tell me that Yugi and I are destined to play card games for eternity?"
Ishizu: "Yes."
Seto: "Best. Destiny. Ever."