FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Corosar]

Shintroy i honestly would not mind seeing a weapon like what reks states in FFTA honestly. how would the formula be messed up if the WP of the weapon shifts as health decreased. To me would it not just use the knight sword formula currently implemented making the complaint against the Atma sword reks put up kinda negated? as the only thing effected is WP. it would not fit into the formula right as it is stated then? not sure how WP would be made to shift based on how much health a unit currently has but it would bring in the idea of trying to keep a unit fully healed or it won't deal enough damage to one shot people... and the idea of innate immune to berserk would prevent 1 shotting through the attack buff berserk gives. if the weapon was balanced so that it had a weakness to counter such a high power i don't see any issues with sugesting it.

[Kurosabes]

@WKW I'm not aware of any arena secret club irc. Maybe it's the regular FFH irc? I stopped going there since I only really pay attention to arena and it's usually dead anyway.

I'm assuming it takes place at the regular FFH IRC channel. But the problem is you never know when these discussions take place when the chat is dead over 90% of the time, and I don't really dare starting a conversation about it with all the non-Arena guys over there. That's why there should be some organised gatherings for balance discussion that everyone could be aware of.

Also as I've said the other night in the stream, and I'll say it here too, I support the 2 range Masamune, as well as Javelin being a thrown weapon like you've briefly suggested. As for Lancet, reworking the Lancer's skillset would be a pretty big deal which won't happen in 140, so until that happens, Lancet could be a proc from one of the spears.

[Shintroy]

@Corosar That's a good way at looking at the weapon Corosar. As a Knight Sword and on an absorb team though? It'd be a pretty bad ass weapon for Knight Sword users on Lore Absorb teams. Best combat, constantly being healed by the scholar, maybe even distribute... Sounds pretty fair that way. Counter and Meatbone Slash would become more viable against Atma Weapon users since, like you said, it's users aren't always guaranteed to be at full health or even OHKOing units.

Atma Weapon at 12-15 sounds best. I'd balance it around southern cross use and max HP damage. Paladins with nurse are likely to have over 50% health, so I'd balance the WP for southern cross for a 380-420 health unit, at a health range where they won't use nurse over southern cross which I'd aim to deal more damage than a melee attack at that range. There's a lot of depth to the weapon that way and it balances the weapon for high PA, above average health classes like Monk and Dancer. I'm probably looking into it too much. Too many competitive games.

spoiler

I loaded my FF6 file yesterday and found my favorite character, Celes using the weapon. I'd definitely make a FFVI themed team the first day of 140's release. It's been a while since I removed the undefeated FFIII team, and I haven't done FFVI outside of the berserk mime, gau team which was bugged. I'd like to see the weapon if it got Knight Swords on the map.

Is there enough room to add another Knight Sword? I think there's still room to have more swords, but I'm not sure about Knight Swords.

@WKW I'm all for discussing Arena live. Set a date people can agree on and I'll be there most likely.
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Katanas need more love. Forced 2 Hand buff or not, I think a fun weapon like the 2 range masamune could help that out. It'd be great if they got a WP buff on that was on par, or maybe even surpassing Knight Swords. To do that though, I think Paladins could ,and maybe even should, no longer have access to katanas and instead gain access to flails. It's been asked for on several occasions by multiple players so I'm asking for it not only as a balancing change, but as a fun request I think a other players can appreciate.
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As for Lancet and balancing the Lancer skillset, that's for a later patch. I think FFMaster should stick to what(I think) he wanted to do for 139 and balance spears. Someone else suggested changing jump's CT to use Jump over SP, but I think that could be kept in mind for the balancing of spears simply for the fact that most spears give SP.

With the possible removal of SP altering abilities and Arena having period where units will have static SP values, I could see lancers getting a boost in SP. At 9 SP, and maybe even the addition of an SP+1 helmet I think spears could stand to lose most, or maybe all SP boosts. I say most because I wouldn't want to see all lancers being balanced for jump. Maybe someone wants a 9 SP armored unit that won't use jump? Having Dragon Whisker and SP spear would add depth the class needs.

On the subject of lancer and spear's depth, let's not forget elemental spears. Why weren't they given elemental affinity in 139? Were there any in 138 outside of Holy Lance (which must have been even worse than it is now with all so many cursed ring, null holy units on a team)?  Maybe Jump could get the an elemental = weapon change? It could be looked at as a buff or a nerf.

Elemental Jump would be useless against a unit or team that absorbs or nullifies the element of the spear, where a non elemental jump with an elemental spear gives lancer, or the jump skill set to be more accurate, a decent option against an absorb unit. I don't know which one I'd be more of a fan of really. Strengthen element combined with 1.5 PA x WP jump damage formula, or 2 range elemental melee option combined with the a non element, still damaging jump. It's a coin toss really. I'm more comfortable with keeping jump at non-elemental for the sake of depth. Even though an elemental jump would potentially give non-spear users enough damage to compete with nonelemental spear jumps, I think a melee unit with a non elemental damage option would be better in the long run.

That being said.... if ranged Javelin got into arena I'm making a Diablo inspired team. Maybe give the weapon the chance of attacking twice.

Currently Lancers are 8SP 10PA 4MA for males and 8SP 8PA 6MA for females.
Javelin - 9 WP - 3 range, +1SP,  Proc Double Attack (same effect as dual cutter) 2H No 2S No
Sounds fair? What about...
Javelin - 10 WP - 3 Range , +1 SP 2H No 2S Yes/No

Didn't 138 have a knife that worked similarly?

[dw6561]

I like the idea of a weapon that adjusts its WP based on your HP. I really have no opinion on this as far as balance so far other than what has already been said.

Paladins with flails sounds interesting, as the flails are elemental so they could be used with grand/southern cross. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I do agree with spears getting an element, but for jump itself, I would stick with it being non-elemental. Jump is already underused already, and introducing an absorb barrier would make elemental spears less appealing. I would be okay with Lancers getting a speed buff if the jump CT was changed to be based off of the jump stat.

Also, there's a chat room? Count me in! Around the time we did the stream is fine for me.

[Reks]

I like the idea of a weapon that adjusts its WP based on your HP. I really have no opinion on this as far as balance so far other than what has already been said.

Paladins with flails sounds interesting, as the flails are elemental so they could be used with grand/southern cross. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I do agree with spears getting an element, but for jump itself, I would stick with it being non-elemental. Jump is already underused already, and introducing an absorb barrier would make elemental spears less appealing. I would be okay with Lancers getting a speed buff if the jump CT was changed to be based off of the jump stat.

Also, there's a chat room? Count me in! Around the time we did the stream is fine for me.

Actually, Arena is very rarely ever discussed in the IRC, and if even then it's only a few passing comments either made by myself or another who frequents the Arena subforum.

[Heroebal]

I believe I've uncovered another glitch with mimes and white magic as secondary, mp is not depleting as far as I can tell. I've been toying around with MimesMania some more, I threw the setup below against Headhunters and the mime was spamming raises/raise 2 the whole mage with out losing mp. There was also only like 1 round of carbunkles.

spoiler: MimesMania test team

Mimerva
female
taurus
40
70
mime
draw out
counter magic
overwhelm


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

murasame, heaven's cloud, muramasa, kikuichimonji, masamune

MimesAlot
female
taurus
40
70
mime
white magic
counter magic
short charge


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

cure, cure 2, cure 4, raise, raise 2, wall, esuna

Mandy
female
taurus
40
70
scholar
draw out
distribute
overwhelm

faith rod

holy miter
earth clothes
defense ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
murasame, heaven's cloud, kikuichimnoji, masamune



Mindy
female
capricorn
40
70
scholar
summon magic
distribute
short charge

faith rod

holy miter
santa outfit
magic ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
moogle, shiva, ramuh, ifrit, leviathan, titan, fairy, carbunkle

[reinoe]

I believe I've uncovered another glitch with mimes and white magic as secondary, mp is not depleting as far as I can tell. I've been toying around with MimesMania some more, I threw the setup below against Headhunters and the mime was spamming raises/raise 2 the whole mage with out losing mp. There was also only like 1 round of carbunkles.

spoiler: MimesMania test team

Mimerva
female
taurus
40
70
mime
draw out
counter magic
overwhelm


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

murasame, heaven's cloud, muramasa, kikuichimonji, masamune

MimesAlot
female
taurus
40
70
mime
white magic
counter magic
short charge


flash hat
platina armor
setiemson

cure, cure 2, cure 4, raise, raise 2, wall, esuna

Mandy
female
taurus
40
70
scholar
draw out
distribute
overwhelm

faith rod

holy miter
earth clothes
defense ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
murasame, heaven's cloud, kikuichimnoji, masamune



Mindy
female
capricorn
40
70
scholar
summon magic
distribute
short charge

faith rod

holy miter
santa outfit
magic ring

earth dragon, mad science, tornado, quake
moogle, shiva, ramuh, ifrit, leviathan, titan, fairy, carbunkle

Yes, I believe there is a glitch/wonderful feature where mimes will not use MP no matter what the skill is.  Quickening, Focus/Accumulate, spellcasting.  Mimes don't use MP.  I wouldn't call it a glitch.  ;)  :more:

[Shintroy]

Check out the Damned's post in this thread Heroebal. http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=7896.0 There's a lot more mime bugs you may want to know about like giving your mime MP moves makes its teammate never EVER use some abilities, or the more commonly known weapon equip bug where Mimes with equip weapon give other mimes their weapon and vice versa to the point where either all mimes have the weapon or everyone is unequipped.

[Heroebal]

Check out the Damned's post in this thread Heroebal. http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=7896.0 There's a lot more mime bugs you may want to know about like giving your mime MP moves makes its teammate never EVER use some abilities, or the more commonly known weapon equip bug where Mimes with equip weapon give other mimes their weapon and vice versa to the point where either all mimes have the weapon or everyone is unequipped.

nice to know that, if white magic/other magics are legit ok for use here in Arena I might try some different set ups with it. It looks like mimes can be berserked and still mime... I may have to tinker with that at some point.

[Shintroy]

nice to know that, if white magic/other magics are legit ok for use here in Arena I might try some different set ups with it. It looks like mimes can be berserked and still mime... I may have to tinker with that at some point.

Berserk mime has the worst bug out of all arena bugs I know of. It doesnt always happen, but when a berserked mime mimics theres a chance they will equip the ability they mimic. It sounds great, but it's actually only the ability graphic meaning they cant targt or harm anyone until they mimic a regular attack and reequip.

Check out my berserk mime teams The Veldt and North Star on youtube to see for yourself. I believe its rare when the mime has a non equip support including two hands and two swords. When you have any of the above though, the mime is almost guaranteed to equip an ability. The mime will still mimic abilities, but unless they unequip, they're harmless wben using attack.

[Kurosabes]

Mime is really iffy to mess with due to these glitches/bugs, that is why most go the safer route and stick to instant secondary attacks, and not CT-based secondaries like White Magic. However, Cure, Dia and Wall work fine due to 0 CT. For everything else, prioritize quicker spells, less chance of your own allies getting turns before the spell resolves. Setup your other units so that their turn doesn't come up soon after the Mime's and you may even be able to land slower spells effectively. It's really just a matter of careful planning. I always look forward to see more mage Mimes.

---

... I really don't want to invade the main FFH channel and I don't know how to create a different IRC room. In fact I can't even use IRC, only Mibbit. I'll think of a solution later on. Until then, I was thinking maybe every 1.5 - 2 weeks we have a live chat, that way we don't run out of discussion too quickly. Chat would have to be logged of course, preferably by more than one person just to be sure

As for what we would be talking about, to begin it should be subjects that we can't really get consensus on or that just require an "I am OK with this". What quickly comes to mind:

- Cloths/Veils. Things have been proposed all over the place but it never seems to get anywhere.

- Removal of speed buffs. From what I've seen it seems to be agreed on but what can't reach consensus is the consequences of these changes. Slow Dance and Cheer Song would need a new purpose, for instance, which might end up changing other songs/dances like dominos.

- Elemental Shields. The recurring suggestion is to simply take out weaknesses. Would that really solve things? It still feels unclear to me, between this and the new shield proposals I have seen, overall, shields just need to be discussed in depth.

- Some abilities moving to other skillsets or getting removed. This is a bit more vague but I would like to reach consensus on most of these as well.

If you think of more feel free to add.

[Jumza]

... I really don't want to invade the main FFH channel

I don't think anyone would mind, in fact it could probably use the activity. Go for it

[Reks]

Some thoughts before bed.

spoiler: Thoughts

Combine Poison with Bio - effectively guaranteed poison on top of relatively minor damage
Perhaps giving some White Magic™ buffs (namely Protect and Shell. First level, that is) a small chance to Regen as well? 25-33%
Remove Slow from Nameless Dance and give it Death Sentence: mostly to give it actual appeal. Not that it'd be any more overpowered than say, Death Sentence the Talk Skill or Secret Fist, which some teams already whore out. It'd also balance out with Nameless Song, which gives Reraise.
Either raise Ultima the spell's Range by 1, or decrease it's CT by 1
Shield Equivalent of the Tactician's Blade, low Evade
Potential weapon/shield/accessory that raises HP/MP by 10% at the cost of having no other benefit (probably useless but by this point it's something?)
New Potion bag that breaks a randomly determined amount of potions (2-4) on the target/victim upon Attack[/obvious joke]
Low-WP, low ranged Gun ('Duel'ing pistols?) capable of being used with 2 Swords[/obvious joke]

Older ideas:
Katanas proccing their respective Draw Out: Knights Paladins lose access to Katanas and gain Knives[/sarcasm?]
Demi-Gun
Medi-Gun (potion-gun?)
Dark element sword?
Shields getting minor status protection/more unique shields IE Ensanguined Shield

[Shintroy]

Bio already adds poison, even though it's not at 100% like Kiyomori. At the moment, the AI will only use poison to cancel out regen, if there are no other offensive options and their the CT allows it, or if they're able to target more units than their other spells.
Someone pointed out that giving abilities a chance to add regen messes with the AI. Life song already has these problems I wouldn't want to see protect users being bugged the same way. Shell is fine as is as well. It can be use flagged by lore spells just like heretic and solution. My old mime team "Caster Shell" used shell in this way to have a mime tank lore combined with white robe. Protect is only used when a unit is near critical health (Iron Will, Wall).
I'd be more open to a reaction ability that adds protect, shell or maybe wall. There are reactions like this in other mods so it wouldn't take much work to add to arena.
I also suggested Death Sentence to nameless dance to balance out the performances. Also there hasn't been any successful teams in 139 using mainly death sentence. I can't wait for the return of death sentence teams when the genji shield and gld armor status immunities are fixed. Punch Art and Talk Skill mime will become an even stronger.
I suggested an armor equivalent of the green beret a while back actually. I thought of a shield option too, but thought it would be obsolete since daggers already give move. Lancer, Samurai, and even Paladin which already has access to the T.Blade, deserve itmore since none of them have dagger options, rely heavily on their accessory slot which usually rules out movement.
10% to HP and MP sounds completely useless on armor. On a shield, accessory, or weapon though it sounds great. I'd suggest it to P Bag if it doesn't get poison immunity like others including me suggest.
I'd like a dual wielding range weapon jokes aside. My 3 range javelin suggestions included a dual wieldable verison, but I'd like like a gun or crossbow too. If bowgun doesn't get a visual effect we can see I'd like to see some dual bow gun squire, ninja, and archer builds.

Still more of a fan of Katanas getting a WP buff, but forcing 2 hands. Flails over knives for paladins too. Knives have move+1 and a damage formula that includes speed. It wouldn't be great, or that fair if paladins got this. Especially if there's a movement increasing piece of armor added.
Demi Gun and a healing gun. 33% of max hp damage and a gun that couldn't do any damage outside of PA/MA*WP abilities... I like both concepts since they fit gun's pattern of dealing a set amount of damage. Healing Gun would have to deal WP*WP... Easy enough to balance. 10-12 WP with some sort of status immunity or attribute maybe.
Demi gun's a special case. Demi deals damage based off a unit's max amount of HP making it neither fit the regular gun's damage forumla or spellgun's. It wouldn't be influenced by faith either since there's no need. Demi would hit 100% of the time and Demi already deals a set amount of damage. I figure the only way to balance the gun would be to give it extremely low WP, 4-6 similar to bags, and give it the spell gun's random damage.
Q = 25% damage 60% of the time, 33% 30% of the time, and 50% 10% of the time seems balanced. Maybe just giving it 33 and 50% sounds better.
One handed paired with the low WP also sounds good. Spellguns getting back either 1 hand or their range has been talked about before. I'm more in favor of the demi gun being one handed with 6 range since pairing it with low WP and it dealing non elemental damage would give demi gun units versatility equal to romanda gun.

There was a post by.... WKW I believe that listed all options for each element. Dark was definitely low on the list. Koutetsu would get a buff if katanas got the forced 2 hand and WP increase. Still though, even with that I'd like to see more options for the kaiser shield. Air Knife, tons, and Ice Brand are the shield's main uses. MA weapons and spears are need some attention. I'd be down to discuss addtions for poles and other unused weapons than the ever popular swords and such.

Still a fan of shields getting status immunty. The absorb/weakness thing they have going for them now makes most of them pretty bad for most teams due to the oil change of 139. the earth, lightning, holy and dark shields could be redone without anyone missing this version for sure. Ensanguined shield halved fire ice and lightning right in FFT right? What about giving it holy and dark instead to match robes?. Shields having traits of clothes, robes, and armor sounds like the direction they're headednow.

[Reks]

Still a fan of shields getting status immunty. The absorb/weakness thing they have going for them now makes most of them pretty bad for most teams due to the oil change of 139. the earth, lightning, holy and dark shields could be redone without anyone missing this version for sure. Ensanguined shield halved fire ice and lightning right in FFT right? What about giving it holy and dark instead to match robes?. Shields having traits of clothes, robes, and armor sounds like the direction they're headednow.

No, the Ensanguined Shield I was referring to is FFXII's.

And Gaig proposed the idea as well.

Perma Protect and/or shell, but perma Poison (maybe something else, too)and immunity to Regen.

[Barren]

The only use I can see with this shield is a unit with high MA + HP/MP using balance. Perhaps cursed ring users can benefit too although that in it of itself is a very possible risk of being out of commission for the duration of the battle. Paladins, Geomancers or Samurais with balance comes to mind

[Reks]

The only use I can see with this shield is a unit with high MA + HP/MP using balance. Perhaps cursed ring users can benefit too although that in it of itself is a very possible risk of being out of commission for the duration of the battle. Paladins, Geomancers or Samurais with balance comes to mind

Attack UP Blood Sword?

Would work with Berserk pretty well.

Yeah, it's pretty limiting. Though a Shield that does inflict some form of status on the user in return for more potent evasion/more powerful buff seems pretty neat.

spoiler

A large part of why I keep proposing somewhat odd things is because I like to keep ideas going and largely because it's just fun

Half of the time I'm not even wholly serious and just wanna see what others think about the ideas.

So if something I post is a bit strange to you all, just smile and wave and/or amuse the idea long enough to shoot it in the face because it's probably me being weird again.

Edit: Also because I'm a fan of more than one thing changing at a time before something can be called a patch. Yeah, the metagame should shift away from speed come 1.4, but it never hurts to look at other stuff and freshen it up a bit either.

[Gaignun]

Apart from Balance and Blood Sword, Ensanguined Shield could also be used with Moonlight.

If we're going to go into ASM with Atma Weapon, one ASM hack I would really love to see is the implementation of MP Regen.  Putting MP regen on a bag or adding it to White Magic Regenerator would be fantastic for casters.

[Barren]

I think that C Bag would be perfect then for MP Regen, since it already adds 2 MA

[dw6561]

The concept of MP regen sounds fascinating. I don't really see regenerator being used much (which couln't possibly have anything to do with the masamune skill, not at all), so there's an incentive to add it there. C Bag would also be a good choice as well. But what do we do about move-MP up then? Or were we thinking of making it an entirely new status?

And what about the possibility of brave analogs of faith and innocent? I think this would be cool, although I don't know exactly how the priorities would work out seeing as the AI already needs to be coaxed into using faith and innocent.