FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

[Shintroy]

Chrono Trigger you need to be hit in order for it to work. I guess you're just unlucky. If you want friendly fire to trigger reaction abilities, try low damaging lores. A unit with quickening and chrono trigger is awesome.

I don't know I made a team with 4 scholars all with chrono trigger just to see if I was unlucky. Chrono trigger still never activated unless the enemy team attacked.

[Barren]

Hmm, in that case maybe you just simply needed to be hit.

Maybe next patch chrono trigger should activate upon hitting even by physical elemental healing similar to dragon spirit

[Gaignun]

I think that burning a target's MP is fine, a team that relies on MP should have means of restoring MP anyway. However I would agree it should just be slightly less AoE. It has the potential of dropping an entire opponent's team's MP from full to zero in a single attack. By removing 1 AoE and giving it 1 Range like Koutetsu/Masamune, something like this becomes much less likely to happen and it retains its purpose, dropping a target's MP to zero.

I agree with this.  Bizen Boat won't be so bad if we give mages a way to restore their MP from 0.  The only active skills that can be used to recover from it is Ether and Chakra.  Both are on skill sets that mages cannot use well.  The skills that mages can use well, namely Carbunkle and Spell Absorb, cannot be used because these spells themselves cost MP.  Having a skill require the very parameter it is used to restore is silly.  It's like having Cure or Moogle cost HP.

If Spell Absorb gets buffed and both Spell Absorb and Carbunkle lose their MP cost, then Bizen Boat won't be as fatal as it is now.

[dw6561]

I agree with this.  Bizen Boat won't be so bad if we give mages a way to restore their MP from 0.  The only active skills that can be used to recover from it is Ether and Chakra.  Both are on skill sets that mages cannot use well.  The skills that mages can use well, namely Carbunkle and Spell Absorb, cannot be used because these spells themselves cost MP.  Having a skill require the very parameter it is used to restore is silly.  It's like having Cure or Moogle cost HP.

If Spell Absorb gets buffed and both Spell Absorb and Carbunkle lose their MP cost, then Bizen Boat won't be as fatal as it is now.

I second this. I remember a conversation earlier about removing carbunkle's MP cost involving the AI's limited ability to judge whether to restore MP, so it could potentially fix two issues. Bizen Boat getting less AOE and having one range would also (mostly) solve the issue of accidentally burning a teammate's MP as well. And I agree that spell absorb is not really too appealing right now.

[Mudvayne]

+1 to that. Carbunkle and Spell Absorb should both be free to cast, and Spell Absorb needs a buff for sure.

Bizen boat really needs a nerf badly. It cripples entire teams MP with one use. And with the current situation with mages not being able to restore their mp with the spells mentioned above... Yeah.

[Barren]

Here's another idea about song/dance. If we remove any speed altering like quickening, what if cheer song/slow dance has like a 33% chance to inflict haste/slow

That way at least these songs can still be good without altering.

I was also thinking that life song can just heal HP but regen moved back to nameless song.

And nameless dance should have poison instead of wiznaibus but also don't move, silence, blind and don't act. At least that would give nameless dance something to be useful for.

Of course, its just a thought

[Corosar]

i am agreeing with barren here. if we remove SP buffs from the next patch (which i find that bards refuse to use Cheer song unless there is nothing much else given to them) they should give haste and slow... it would open up more ways of getting that buff out... though it could make haste 2 and slow 2 less used due to the songs and dances hitting the entire field instead of a 3 aoe.

+1 to that. Carbunkle and Spell Absorb should both be free to cast, and Spell Absorb needs a buff for sure.

Bizen boat really needs a nerf badly. It cripples entire teams MP with one use. And with the current situation with mages not being able to restore their mp with the spells mentioned above... Yeah.

I will agree with that bizen boat is insane against a caster team as it is!

[silentkaster]

Here's another idea about song/dance. If we remove any speed altering like quickening, what if cheer song/slow dance has like a 33% chance to inflict haste/slow

That way at least these songs can still be good without altering.

I was also thinking that life song can just heal HP but regen moved back to nameless song.

And nameless dance should have poison instead of wiznaibus but also don't move, silence, blind and don't act. At least that would give nameless dance something to be useful for.

Of course, its just a thought

The problem with this (I believe) is that the AI won't stop using the skill. From what I read, the AI doesn't stop using the skill "Nameless Dance," or "Nameless Song," after it starts because there is a chance for haste to be inflicted. Therefore, the AI won't prioritize healing, or damage, or even killing an enemy once it starts a Nameless technique because it just won't stop that technique...at least that's the case a huge percentage of the time with these skills.

My suggestion is to simply add +25 CT to Nameless Song (along with Regen and removing it from Life Song). While some might say this steps on Last Song, it really doesn't. It adds +25 CT less than 10% of the time as 50% of the time the technique will miss and the other 50% (If we add Regen) it will give +25 CT less than 10% of the time. Even without adding Regen, it would only be a 10% chance of ever striking an ally, while Last Song has a 40% chance of adding 100 CT to any ally. The uses of these two songs would still be very different.

With Nameless Dance, Don't Act would probably be fine. If anything, people will start blocking this heavily (though if Don't Act is added, I might suggest adding Don't Act Protection to an additional accessory or Robe, say, the Silk Robe or the Angel Ring.) If people have a problem with that, then we could do -25 CT on the Nameless Dance as well.

+1 to that. Carbunkle and Spell Absorb should both be free to cast, and Spell Absorb needs a buff for sure.

Bizen boat really needs a nerf badly. It cripples entire teams MP with one use. And with the current situation with mages not being able to restore their mp with the spells mentioned above... Yeah.

Bizen Boat is really the only skill that counters Move-MP UP. Since the AI almost only exclusively uses it against enemies who are in the process of casting (there are exceptions, but the AI will generally use another skill it has if something else is available), I don't think nerfing it much, if at all, is a good idea. Perhaps allowing MP Restore and Absorb MP (which means giving Bizen Boat an MP use of at least 1 MP I guess?) to trigger on them would be a good idea. It makes these skills more attractive in comparison if you fear Bizen Boat.

I realize the tournament showed a lot of people how Bizen Boat can interfere with casting and it hurts. However, remember that someone must put it on their team using the Draw Out Skill Set (an expensive skillset in general I might add) and have enough JP left over for it; a rule which didn't apply in our tournament. Skills like Masamune, Murasame and Chirijiraden are usually staples, and Bizen Boat takes a back seat when you have to pick and choose. If a nerf is still felt as necessary, then a small JP cost increase or a small MP cost would be better, in my opinion, than nerfing the skill itself.

[dw6561]

The problem with this (I believe) is that the AI won't stop using the skill. From what I read, the AI doesn't stop using the skill "Nameless Dance," or "Nameless Song," after it starts because there is a chance for haste to be inflicted. Therefore, the AI won't prioritize healing, or damage, or even killing an enemy once it starts a Nameless technique because it just won't stop that technique...at least that's the case a huge percentage of the time with these skills.

My suggestion is to simply add +25 CT to Nameless Song (along with Regen and removing it from Life Song). While some might say this steps on Last Song, it really doesn't. It adds +25 CT less than 10% of the time as 50% of the time the technique will miss and the other 50% (If we add Regen) it will give +25 CT less than 10% of the time. Even without adding Regen, it would only be a 10% chance of ever striking an ally, while Last Song has a 40% chance of adding 100 CT to any ally. The uses of these two songs would still be very different.

With Nameless Dance, Don't Act would probably be fine. If anything, people will start blocking this heavily (though if Don't Act is added, I might suggest adding Don't Act Protection to an additional accessory or Robe, say, the Silk Robe or the Angel Ring.) If people have a problem with that, then we could do -25 CT on the Nameless Dance as well.

Good point, haste is too much of a priority for the AI. Though I think nameless song/dance will be underused no matter what because of the random nature of the skills. I wasn't aware that you could split up stat increasing attributes of an ability like that, but you guys work miracles so I wouldn't be surprised if there actually is a way.

I'm not too sure about nameless dance getting don't act. I do agree with some clothes/robes gaining some status protection though. I think it would be good because there are not many units that can equip armor innately.

On the subject of songs/dances, I also kind of liked the idea of brave/faith altering songs and dances mentioned earlier (would these be stackable with faith up?), although brave probably shouldn't be allowed to be lowered past 40 because of the fury mechanic. Matches would take forever.

[Shintroy]

Not a fan of clothes getting status protection. Shields sure, but not clothes. Armored users don't get enough use as is. The next thing we'll be asking for is armor getting the abillity to absorb.

[Gaignun]

I agree with Shintroy.  Status protection is armor's domain.  Robe of Lords is an anomaly, I suppose.

[Reks]

I agree with Shintroy.  Status protection is armor's domain.  Robe of Lords is an anomaly, I suppose.

Not so much an anomaly just as Silence is a killer for mages. Sure, there's a ton of Silence protecting accessories out there, but Robe of Lords opens the accessory slot if you're only trying to prevent Silence/want lots of MP on top of it.



For a few suggestions, mostly building off of past ones/restating them for recap reasons:

Giving Mage Masher a set MP damage Proc (75 sounds nice) would help it actually see use.
Spears gaining Jump to boost, well, Jump would help it immensely(and Jump-based movements). Samurai gaining them might be iffy depending on which can be doublehanded, but can still be powerful.
Demi-gun is neat. Not sure on 2-hands or range, though.
Please, PLEASE consider Netherseers. They're an awesome idea and I have lots of ideas in mind for them already.
Katana(s) gaining respective Draw Out skill. Not so great for Paladins, but Paladins rarely seem to use them anyway and it's more incentive for other jobs to use Equip Heavy Blade.
A few shield changes. Ensanguined Shield? I forgot what was proposed for it. Ohright.

spoiler: Gaignun previously proposed changes, equipment edition

Swords
Phoenix Blade: W-EV decreased from 25 to 10
Mystic Blade: WP increased from 9 to 10
Shieldrender: Redesign?
Ultima Weapon: WP decreased from 10 to 9, Ultima proc rate increased from 33% to 50%

Katana
Kotetsu Knife: WP increased from 9 to 10
Masamune: SP increased from -2 to -1, now adds Slow and Stop immunity

Staves
Healing Staff: Can no longer be dual-wielded

Guns
Mythril Gun: Changed to Demi Gun, Casts Demi, ignores M-EV, 6 Rng, Forced Two-Hands

Longbows
Silver Bow: WP reduced from 14 to 11, Holy proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Ice Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Lightning Bow: SP bonus removed, WP increased from 12 to 13
Windslash Bow: SP bonus removed, Hurricane proc rate increased from 20% to 33%
Atheist Bow: Innocent proc rate decreased from 100% to 50%, Range increased from 4 to 5

Spears
Javelin: SP bonus decreased from 2 to 1, +2 Jump
Spear/Mythril Spear/Partisan/Holy Lance: Redesign?

Poles
Iron Fan: 14 WP, 15 W-EV, Dark element
Gokuu Rod: 8 WP, 0 W-EV, 50% Cast: Petrify, 2H
Ivory Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H
Octagon Rod: 9 WP, 15 W-EV, 50% Cast: Frog, 2H
Whale Whisker: 10 WP, 15 W-EV, Water element, 2H

Cloths
Redesign?

Bags
P Bag: WP reduced to 0, Add MP Regen (or not if this not a trivial hack)

Shields
Genji Shield: Add Immune: Death Sentence
Aegis Shield: M-EV decreased from 30 to 25
Mirror Shield: New shield, 25 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Init: Reflect
Ensanguined Shield: New shield, 5 P-EV, 5 M-EV, Always: Protect/Shell/Poison, Immune: Regen (Modified version of Reks' Bulwark)

Headbands
Choice Band: 60 HP, +1 PA, +1 MA, Immune: Dead/Death Sentence

Armor
Gold Armor: Add Immune: Death Sentence

Accessories
Germinas Boots: +2 Move, +2 Jump (for mad hops)
N-Kai Armlet: Gains Darkness immunity
108 Gems: Gains Faith/Innocent immunity

[/spoiler]

And ideas borrowed from CCP2, like the Dragoon Boots or such.(turns Attack into Jump, with a limited range and height but frees up a secondary for other use, and adds +2 to Jump movement)

[Shintroy]

It's known by most Mime can't use weapons correctly due to bugs that make them either unequip their primary weapon or equip clothes as weapons resulting in bugged attacks. I don't think it's known to most mimes can equip shields just fine without any equip bugs though. With that, I'll again suggest mime either getting a 9 SP buff or the innate ability to equip shields. I'm more of a fan of the latter since it adds more depth to mime teams without taking away from other units and classes with 8 speed by having to deal with turn order and such.

Lancers getting 9 SP if all spears and the jump CT formula get reworked seems fine as well. Armored units don't get enough attention since they're all base 8 SP and out of all armored classes, lancers would be the best choice in getting the speed boost.

Robes aren't in the same category of equipment as clothing just like clothing and armor. Robes differ by always boosting MP across the board and having the only buff on equipment as seen on Light Robe. It's not odd that robes have status immunities or absorb properties since there's chameleon robe.

And ideas borrowed from CCP2, like the Dragoon Boots or such.(turns Attack into Jump, with a limited range and height but frees up a secondary for other use, and adds +2 to Jump movement)

Completely against items giving abilities since that defeats the purpose of the JP cap. I'd be fine with a piece of equipment that strengthened abilities similarly to elemental strengthening equipment. Sounds like too much work me though.

I'd like to keep the Arena jobs as they are. I read a suggestion a while ago of wanting to replace mime with another class like blue mage since no one really used mime. This may have been an early 139, or even end 138 post, but it's still a bit too much for me to see a class go.

I'd be completely okay with adding a class to arena though. Could it even be done? Maybe change a male and female guest class into a matching job/ability set? There's no need to change classes through the formation menu so I could see it being possible in the future. I'm more in favor of adding traditional final fantasy classes though. Red Mage.... green... blue... a bunch of ideas to throw around. The discussion would have to have it's own thread since it's not a part of the meta.... If a gunner job gets introduced then spell guns will be a thing of the past. We could have two hand and one handed guns with abilities that work similar to jump with a boost in damage when you have guns equipped maybe?

Would it be possible to add weapon specific boosts in damage to abilities actually? Kagesougi with a .75 damage nerf to non katana weapons sounds great. This would balance builds like double healing staff without having to nerf the WP of healing staff which would hurt the weapon's base function.

140 news when?

[Barren]

If we do add netherseer class we can always use Rafa and Malak sprites if Rek's design doesn't work out. I was also thinking of re adding the fire/thunder tons from an earlier patch. At least to their skillset

[Reks]

If we do add netherseer class we can always use Rafa and Malak sprites if Rek's design doesn't work out. I was also thinking of re adding the fire/thunder tons from an earlier patch. At least to their skillset

Unless the spriting guys are up for it, the design wouldn't matter too much anyway

But yes here's hoping.

[Shintroy]

Oh netherseer is Malak and Rafa's class? It's been so long. If we're going to use exact Rafa and Malak sprites it would be odd to see more than one of either sprite on a team. I'd suggest a hero job/class balancing rule where you're only allowed one non generic unit per team if there if that was the case. Would be much better to just balance the skillset and get a spriter to slightly edit Rafa and Malak's spirte and portrait to look more generic. With that said, I'd like dark knight in the game since the sprite is already complete. Onion Knight as well. I imagine that just being a class with great stats with no skill set of its own.

Male Onion Knight - 11 PA, 9 MA, 9SP, 3 Move, 3 Jump
Female  - 9 PA, 11 MA
Equips all equipment including headbands similar to mime. Equips all weapons.

...Doesn't seem OP. Would adding innate Two Swords and Two Hands be too much?

[Reks]

Oh netherseer is Malak and Rafa's class? It's been so long. If we're going to use exact Rafa and Malak sprites it would be odd to see more than one of either sprite on a team. I'd suggest a hero job/class balancing rule where you're only allowed one non generic unit per team if there if that was the case. Would be much better to just balance the skillset and get a spriter to slightly edit Rafa and Malak's spirte and portrait to look more generic. With that said, I'd like dark knight in the game since the sprite is already complete. Onion Knight as well. I imagine that just being a class with great stats with no skill set of its own.

Male Onion Knight - 11 PA, 9 MA, 9SP, 3 Move, 3 Jump
Female  - 9 PA, 11 MA
Equips all equipment including headbands similar to mime. Equips all weapons.

...Doesn't seem OP. Would adding innate Two Swords and Two Hands be too much?

If you're gonna limit a class, you might as well limit Mimes and Thieves and Squires too.

IF they use Rafa/Malak, it's nothing more than a fill-in for thematic purposes. My idea could be neat (I've been too depressed to draw much, sadly), but spriting is a lot of work.

Even editing them to look more generic is a good amount of effort.

[Shintroy]

Just a suggestion towards guest, or special jobs introduced from vanilla since they were usually designed to be more OP than generic classes. Besides, the current arena classes are already balanced. There's no reason to add a new rule towards them and it was only a suggestion if we used Malak and Rafa's sprites. It'd would be pretty lazy of us to use those their sprites even if adding their classes to Arena. It would eventually lead to using other special character sprites for arena classes like Weigraf and Agrias as male and female Holy Knight character sprites. I know they're just sprites, but I think unless somethings done to them they should still have a rule that only applies to them.

I do agree on limiting the amount of squires per team though. Pretty OP job if you ask me.

[Reks]

Just a suggestion towards guest, or special jobs introduced from vanilla since they were usually designed to be more OP than generic classes. Besides, the current arena classes are already balanced. There's no reason to add a new rule towards them and it was only a suggestion if we used Malak and Rafa's sprites. It'd would be pretty lazy of us to use those their sprites even if adding their classes to Arena. It would eventually lead to using other special character sprites for arena classes like Weigraf and Agrias as male and female Holy Knight character sprites. I know they're just sprites, but I think unless somethings done to them they should still have a rule that only applies to them.

I do agree on limiting the amount of squires per team though. Pretty OP job if you ask me.

... I was being sarcastic. Limiting a job in regular rules should never happen.

Netherseer isn't a job introduced from vanilla, it was thought up by Gaignun with abilities that use a similar mechanic to -ton spells. Using the unique existing sprites is literally just a fill in, because a lot of free work forced on others does not equal lazy. And sprites are unimportant so long as things work, no? It's remarkably silly to want to limit a new class because you don't want to use what vanilla already has that might work in case the spriters can't/don't want to make new ones.

[Jumza]

If you're ever concerned about sprites just remember that any sprite can have more palettes added to it even if it's unique (up to the limit of course).