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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Elmdork

Few more things of note:

Totally fine with quickening going for at least a season if not, forever. I stopped using it because I felt it was cheap, not a slight against people who use it, I try to make an alternate solution to the turn issue so I don't feel bad playing against a quickening team either. I don't like it because I don't feel it should be treated like PA or MA where more is merrier, it should be more tactical and offer benefits for being slower, such as "no foolin'" you saw in the tournament, but there is a thresh hold. Being 8 speed is bad now, it really just is.

Samurai never loses two hand. Ever. Because.
Katana aren't bad, but few are using them to their potential, though masamune isn't right yet. If it lost all the speed/haste stuff and became the shield sword, it'd be cool. Increased evasion with slow immunity and decent wp, least it'd get used. Magic evade forced 2 hands? just spitballing at this point.

Mime must stay at 8 speed for 2 reasons:

1. Team versatility is crucial, It's harder for some units to attain bonus speed and do their job as intended. Perhaps you want your paladin to be straight up tanky and grand cross all day, that should be cool to mime. It increases the difficulty on an already hard to design unit/team. If you don't get the turn order just the way you want it, your mime will make you sad.

2. Mimes can equip pretty much anything. 13 speed mime is attainable... fragile, but attainable. Between that 8 speed, you really should be able to do whatever you intend to do.. I haven't seen a team that actually needed that, but time will tell. If you wanna live in the world of 17 speed(w/haste) mimes, be my guest, but remember i said "no"

About poison (and eviscerating wizard, plz no) yeah.. poison doesn't really work on wizard.. their job is to pummel the enemy with huge aoe damage and making poison a viable cast would be gimping their potential. The other statii the have are lethal, if not nearly, so a death/frog wizard is really the only way to go in that sense. I suggest moving poison to either squire or scholar. Possible ninjitsu but the formula would have to be done differently in either.

Oh, and as much as I like the idea of oracle getting frog and calling monopoly on all the froggies, it really should stay on black magic. If it must go somewhere, yin yang magic is the place to go, but wizard has few statii especially if poison gets moved (yes, oracle could get poison, but it would get used about as often as blind or silence song)
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  • Discord username: rouroni elmdor

Shintroy

Mime has a weapon bug that will disarm them when a teammate attacks. So without a weapon and having equip shield they can only have a max of 12 SP. I'm only for Mime getting an SP buff if SP boosting is removed otherwise keep them 8 SP since it's easy for them to increase it with Cheer Song and Quickening. Don't forget if the Mime has an ability that uses MP, except for the ruins apparently, the AI won't use attribute boosting abilities. Besides, in most situations it's best for the mime to go first so teammates going after can potentially line themselves up for a mimic.

I've never seen blind used in 139. Not even on my old high evasion team "Power Rangers", which I use for team testing every time I make a new team. I don't know what can be done to that ability to make the AI use it. Poison on Oracle seems okay, but I'm more worried about poison protection for cloth wearers. Hopefully there's some more poison protection in the next patch.

Speaking of status effects, let's not forget about fixing death sentence on dead immune equipment. Looking forward to Death Sentence making a return. We haven't seen Secret first since probably month 1 of arena.

Quake and Tornado I'm fine with being at *9 MA, but can we have it at 3 CT instead of 2?
Some day my people will be free.

silentkaster

Quote from: Gaignun on July 11, 2015, 08:55:27 am

Regen: 0 CT, Ally Only
Poison: 0 CT, Enemy Only

0 CT will not provide very much benefit to Regen.  A 0 CT Cure already keeps its caster alive from poison damage.
While I wouldn't mind seeing a 0 CT Poison, I believe that it is similarly unnecessary.




Actually, I think it would make Regen very usable. One of the biggest problems with Regen right now is that it requires CT. One way that Regen can be useful is when you put White Magic on a non MA based unit like Archer or Paladin, they aren't able to heal others well with a White Magic ability because their MA isn't high enough...but with Regen, they can at least provide some type of semi-reliable healing. But because it requires one CT, they have to use it, hope for it to hit (and I have seen it miss), and then they don't get the benefit until their next turn when casting it on themselves. That's the biggest problem as opposed to say, Masamune, where Regen is applied right away and the unit gets 15% of its health back immediately. That's a huge advantage as it can bring the unit out of critical immediately (as opposed to casting Regen where it could take two or more turns for the unit to recover).

While a 0CT cure keeps the unit alive from poison, it isn't an (good) option on units with low MA who are using White Magic and I don't think that's the argument here anyway. Curing poison isn't the reason that this spell is used; providing a light buff for healing and damage control is a much better use since its AOE allows the caster to get its whole party if it can.

I think it's a much needed boost and would help Regen a lot. The same could probably be said for Poison, though I think that one of the main reasons it isn't seen often is because of the AI itself...it just won't use it very often when given other options. Still though, it would at least help.

(I wrote this a long time ago but just brought out my laptop...still I'm sure relevant.)
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

July 25, 2015, 02:04:57 pm #1763 Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 02:47:49 pm by Gaignun
That's a convincing explanation, silentkaster.  I can get behind the proposal now.  Though if Regen gets a cure bonus, we might need to adjust the CT, MP, etc. for the sake of balance.

Barren

I say after the SCC tournament is done we get back to discussing changes that should be made to make it more balanced. I know not everyone will agree what's proposed at the moment but new ideas may emerge so of anyone wants to either reinforce their ideas and bring up new ones please post here. Let's get creative!
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Reks

August 13, 2015, 10:01:53 pm #1765 Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 10:15:01 pm by Reks
Quote from: Barren on August 13, 2015, 06:29:00 pm
I say after the SCC tournament is done we get back to discussing changes that should be made to make it more balanced. I know not everyone will agree what's proposed at the moment but new ideas may emerge so of anyone wants to either reinforce their ideas and bring up new ones please post here. Let's get creative!

All just ideas and off of the top of my head to boot.

Though some are serious (mostly regarding weapons), the rest are just things to discuss. Bolded for convenience and a little bit of fun.

Ultima Weapon's Proc should be 50% at the least.
Change/Add sword: Rapier : 9-11 WP, 15-30% W-EV, +1 Speed or replace Shieldrender for Shield-Break proc, no 2S or 2H (because admit it, the Shieldrender is useless now with it's WP reduction. Replacing it with a slightly stronger but non 2H version will help it see more use, and Rapiers just make sense for piercing things.)
Change/Add current gun: Demi Gun - Casts Demi on target. 5 range, 1 hand (because it can't do any more damage than 33% without weakness, and giving it a low WP total will prevent Kage-spam and the like)
Squires could gain use of Helmets, but not Armor, losing a weapon choice if need be. (Helmets are not particularly OP considering Armor covers more immunities, and somewhat gives Squires more room for versatility. They'd still need Equip Armor for Armor, as I see it. I keep thinking of the cliche of a pot-helmet trainee, thus what created the idea for this.)
Same suggestions as before with Jump and Spears: CT of Jump modified by total Jump movement, and Spears Increasing Jump movement over Speed.
Giving Paladins access to Knives makes them a little more historically accurate (and a small easy movement boost for more defensive Pallys and creative offensive units)
Same for Samurai: access to Spears and/or Bows.
Give Lancers access to dresses Robes for rebalancing purposes.
Place Instruments under Equip Magegear and Cloths under Equip Polearm (for lack of a better thematic fit and because of their 2-range attack function)


That's all for right now. Will think more on changes/ideas later.
  • Modding version: Other/Unknown
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Kurosabes


I finally have internet back. It's nice to see approval on some of my suggestions, such as Samurai using bows. Thanks for the inputs. I will try to reply in chronological order.


Disapproval on Black Magic changes: Fair enough, it was already a contested change. I do begin to like Water after extensively using it in test runs. It would be a shame to see these spells go. Bio spells could be Dark elemental if them being non-elemental is an issue. But having Bio abilities would mean sacrificing Poison, Frog and Death ability slots, which isn't something that seems to reach consensus either. I suppose merging all the Bio procs into one single random proccing Bio and take away Poison. I'll leave the proc rate for discussion.

Nether spells: Not really a reply to anything, just a thought. I think it's a nice idea, but they really should be UnFaith-based. 40/40 units aren't that common builds and are hardly a threat. 40/70 units take more damage from regular spells. The 70/40 units are the real threat to Wizards. UnFaith Nethers would still work on the 40/40 units as well.


Draw Outs: I understand Murasame losing AoE would be significant. As suggested, you could target other panels next to yourself like the current Koutetsu, so you could still heal someone 2 panels away despite dropping the AoE to 1. Same thing with Bizen Boat. It would still be a nerf, but not as drastic and more reasonable. I've also thought of Heaven's Cloud becoming the AoE-heavy ability of the skillset, by increasing its AoE to 3. Maybe that would see it getting some actual use despite running the risk of hitting your own allies, or proccing Slow if you're an air absorb team. In any case, it needs some sort of buff.


Bags: I've seen the 'heal on hit' suggestion and this made me think. How about dropping one of them to 0 WP? The AI would then whack someone to wake them out of Charm or Sleep instead of attempting mundane physical attacks on the enemy. C Bag could become the "Chemist Bag" for that purpose. It could cancel various other bad status to boot. The P Bag, on the other hand, would protect yourself from status, not your allies. Both would lose 2S since protecting both yourself and your allies from status may be OP.


Swapping palettes: What I meant is that currently, female Summoners under the yellow palette are currently shown as purple, and vice versa. Just a simple display issue that needs to be resolved.


I will respond to more later.
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dw6561

This post is kind of long, so I put it in a spoiler.


1) I do think that geomancer should be bumped up to 10/8 and 8/10. Maybe I'm just biased, but I don't like to see a class using geomancy better than the class that can use it innately without specifically tailoring that unit for that purpose. Also, geomancers should have even stats from the get go due to the way the geomancy formula works, even with our proposed changes to elemental.

2) I think Bards could have major potential with Robes, but I think it makes them too much like better geomancers without the shields. While robes don't give many stat boosts or HP, I feel that the lack of MP balances out the fact that they have higher MA than any other male unit. Plus, I think that these SCC teams proved that male casters can definitely be used for some crazy stuff like that gastrafitis oracle or the two swords wizard.

3) Yeah, I agree that the draw out set is a little overpowered, and nobody ever uses heaven's cloud. Speaking of which, I think Asura may need a boost as well, maybe PA*8 instead so that male samurai can shine more. Samurai also getting access to spears/bows would be cool as well since it means they can be faster/have better jump. If samurai get access to spears, I feel that more of the spears should become usable with two hands if they don't gain an element. And directing the AOE's sounds like a good way to handle murasame and bizen boat, because the AI would then try to avoid hitting the wrong side with it similar to the current chakra and the crosses.

4) I like the idea of spears giving jump instead of speed. Lancers are underrepresented as a class, possibly due to their limited skill set and inability to use it because of the dang speed stacking. This is even more of a problem with them being a slow class. Jump CT being based on the jump stat would really help with this issue. Additionally, the spears with procs could be based on PA to benefit lancers more, or they could be their respective element. Also, I think that no item should boost speed by more than +1.

5) I'm not too surprised that just a normal sword gets so neglected when surrounded by all these cooler options. Maybe platinum sword should get the evasion of the phoenix blade or even better since it would benefit many classes who can't equip axes/knight swords/other stuff and it wouldn't be overpowered. I think phoenix blade could stand to loose the evasion boost because it already can be boosted by 108 gems/black robe, has 16 WP, and gives initial reraise.

6) I think Aegis Shield is too good as it is now, with its 30 M.EV and silence protection AND +1 MA.

7) Giving a bag 0 WP sounds like an intriguing idea. I'd love to see bags take on a more defensive role than just boosting stats.

8) The nether spells being based on Unfaith could be really cool, since it would provide some more use for innocent. However, there would be no more moves using Unfury as a result. I just wanted to bring that up.

9) Maybe oracle could stand to loose the blind spell since it's not really used and it could be put on a more physical class. Would thieves getting a blind skill in place of quickening or perhaps Bad Luck be too overpowered? Because I think that would be a good skill for them, since it has the potential to make them even more evasive.

10) I don't want to see the water spells go either. I think that the bio spells could be combined, but the random procs as opposed to just one might be a turn off.
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Gaignun

August 15, 2015, 07:43:02 am #1768 Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 07:59:47 am by Gaignun
A few additions/responses/repetitions:

Echoing Reinoe's sword proposals
Ultima weapon: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 10 to 9.
Moonlight: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 9 to 8.  I'll try to crunch some numbers later to see whether these changes keep balance among the other swords.
Rapier: Extremely hesitant about +1 SP.  I would like to see SP bonuses on weapons reigned in, if anything.

Lancer/spear changes
Increase Lancer's base SP from 8 to 9.
Decrease Lancer's base Jump from 5 to 4.
Remove SP bonus from all spearsGive all spears +1 JumpGive one of those spears an additional +1 Jump.
Change Jump formula from 50/SP to 21/Jump.

Changing Nether spells to unfaith
I cannot get behind this change.  Every other spell in Black magic follows a faith formula, so if Nether spells are changed to unfaith, then black magic users will become unable to use nether spells and the other spells simultaneously and effectively.  At that point we might as well just split off Nether spells into their own skill set.

... On that thought, I think it would be really cool if we could redesign a skillset to do exactly this.  How many people would object if we shuffled the Dance skills to Bards, blew up the Dance skillset, then redesigned Dancers as PA-based unfaith mages?  We could relabel Dancer as Netherseer (after Malak) or something.

Barren

Well dances currently are underwhelming because of how unreliable they are. especially nameless dance which is countered hard by anti-status, heavy armor in particular. I mean witch hunt and last dance is still nice but nothing game changing. If last dance had a buff in accuracy then yea it'd be somehting. The bard skill set is far superior in almost every way. Even if Life Song and Nameless aren't that great to begin with considering the buffs from Nameless song is random, at least last song and magic/battle songs has a lot of impact to the matches themselves. Jumza demonstrated that against me. Along with Faith UP this alone proves that no 40 faith units are truly safe from magic.

So maybe making dancer nether mages or netherseer might be intriguing. Just that their stats has to be reworked obviously to benefit the low faith and MA nether spells need to work.

As far as Swords, I think that the underused Swords deserve some love. Platinum Swords people don't use despite its 12 WP and can be dual wielded. Maybe we should increase the WP Evade? Or give it like a double shot proc similar to dual cutters except lower its WP to maybe 9 or 10.

I still think that we could use a reflect shield considering that there isn't enough reflect based tactics that are dedicated among teams. Yea you see instances of reflect but I think that maybe the Crystal Shield should be the Mirror Shield with Always reflect. That way you can have that unit be the set to use long distance spells. Helps mages alot too.
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Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 07:43:02 am
A few additions/responses/repetitions:

Echoing Reinoe's sword proposals
Ultima weapon: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 10 to 9.
Moonlight: Increase proc rate from 33% to 50%Decrease WP from 9 to 8.  I'll try to crunch some numbers later to see whether these changes keep balance among the other swords.
Rapier: Extremely hesitant about +1 SP.  I would like to see SP bonuses on weapons reigned in, if anything.

Lancer/spear changes
Increase Lancer's base SP from 8 to 9.
Decrease Lancer's base Jump from 5 to 4.
Remove SP bonus from all spearsGive all spears +1 JumpGive one of those spears an additional +1 Jump.
Change Jump formula from 50/SP to 21/Jump.

Changing Nether spells to unfaith
I cannot get behind this change.  Every other spell in Black magic follows a faith formula, so if Nether spells are changed to unfaith, then black magic users will become unable to use nether spells and the other spells simultaneously and effectively.  At that point we might as well just split off Nether spells into their own skill set.

... On that thought, I think it would be really cool if we could redesign a skillset to do exactly this.  How many people would object if we shuffled the Dance skills to Bards, blew up the Dance skillset, then redesigned Dancers as PA-based unfaith mages?  We could relabel Dancer as Netherseer (after Malak) or something.


Reinoe? :P

But yeah.

I suggested the +1 Speed and/or high W-EV mostly because sword users tend to be slow. But again, I don't think the Shieldrender will be used anymore in it's current state, thus why I offered the idea of strengthening it (and giving it more W-EV) but removing it's 2H capabilities. (and I just found Rapiers thematically appropriate for this.)

You'd STILL get two hits in now and again, even if it's not the damage of 2Hing it.

I CAN most certainly agree with increasing the procs of Ultima Weapon and Moonlight both to 50%.
Quote from: Barren on August 15, 2015, 08:19:25 am
Well dances currently are underwhelming because of how unreliable they are. especially nameless dance which is countered hard by anti-status, heavy armor in particular. I mean witch hunt and last dance is still nice but nothing game changing. If last dance had a buff in accuracy then yea it'd be somehting. The bard skill set is far superior in almost every way. Even if Life Song and Nameless aren't that great to begin with considering the buffs from Nameless song is random, at least last song and magic/battle songs has a lot of impact to the matches themselves. Jumza demonstrated that against me. Along with Faith UP this alone proves that no 40 faith units are truly safe from magic.

So maybe making dancer nether mages or netherseer might be intriguing. Just that their stats has to be reworked obviously to benefit the low faith and MA nether spells need to work.

As far as Swords, I think that the underused Swords deserve some love. Platinum Swords people don't use despite its 12 WP and can be dual wielded. Maybe we should increase the WP Evade? Or give it like a double shot proc similar to dual cutters except lower its WP to maybe 9 or 10.

I still think that we could use a reflect shield considering that there isn't enough reflect based tactics that are dedicated among teams. Yea you see instances of reflect but I think that maybe the Crystal Shield should be the Mirror Shield with Always reflect. That way you can have that unit be the set to use long distance spells. Helps mages alot too.


I can get behind the underused swords seeing love, but I don't think a small W-EV boost would help it see more love (and if the Shieldrender is improved/changed to Rapier, a Dual-Cutter effect would be redundant). I remember when Platinum Sword/Platina Dagger Thieves were VERY deadly.

So while it -might- be seen as iffy, I'd prefer an increase to WP (probably 13. That's reasonable enough, I think) over anything else since the Platinum Sword's strength is it's no-element and Dual-Wielding capabilities. (because there's almost no reason to use it otherwise. The Lionheart is always a better choice with 2H, and no other swords can be used with 2S that are nearly as strong but have some proc that balances that.)

All other swords are fine as they are with maybe some tweaking (like Phoenix Blade losing a bit of W-EV to another sword)

I really like the concept of a Mirror Shield, though it was brought up on Shields having too many buffs being somewhat iffy (though I like the idea of something like FFXII's Ensanguined Shield, where it had stupid good perks but perma Sap and Poison)

So here's some ideas, once again off the top of my head:

Stonewall Shield/Bulwark: P/M-EV 10%, Always: Protect, Shell | Initial: Petrify | -1 Speed
Primary Guard: P/M-EV 5-15%, Cancel: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Holy damage | Weak: Water, Wind, Earth, Dark
Tetric Barrier: Same EV as above, Cancel: Water, Wind, Earth, Dark | Weak: Fire, Ice, Lightning, Holy
Focus Guard: 5% P/M-EV, +1 PA, +1 MA | Cancel: Charm


While some of these make current shields somewhat redundant, more creative and colorful options seems like an interesting way to change things up a bit.
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Barren

I also think windslash bow needs an upgrade. 20% hurricane isn't really hot atm. It's need a percentage boost. 33% perhaps?
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Gaignun

August 15, 2015, 10:08:05 am #1772 Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 04:16:37 pm by Gaignun
So sorry, Reks!  I have the mind of a senile old man.  Or I can't get reinoe out of my thoughts.  Probably both.

As a start, Netherseers could be something like:

106 HP, 72 MP, 8 SP, 12 PA, 6 MA, 3 Move, 3 Jump, 5 C-EV
Can equip Knives, Swords, Cloth, Hat, Clothes, Robes, Accessories

Nether Wind: Dmg_UF(PA*7), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Wind 2: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Wind elemental, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 5 CT, 24 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Earth: Dmg_UF(PA*9), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 18 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Earth 2: Dmg_UF(PA*11), Earth elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT 5 CT, 30 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Holy: Dmg_UF(PA*8), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT, 6 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP
Nether Holy 2: Dmg_UF(PA*10), Holy elemental, 5 Rng, 1 AoE, 2 Vert, 3 CT 5 CT, 12 MP, M-Evadable, Reflectable, 150 JP
Nether Raise: Heal_(50%), Hit_UF(PA+80)%, Cancel: Dead, 5 Rng, 3 CT, 15 MP, Reflectable, 200 JP
Oil: Hit_UF(PA+90)%, Add: Oil, 5 Rng, 2 AoE, 2 Vert, 1 CT, 6 MP, Not evadable, Reflectable, 100 JP

※ Nether Wind 2 and Nether Earth 2 may be regarded as redesigned versions of Lore's Tornado and Quake.  They may even appropriate Tornado's and Quake's animations.
※ Oil exists to get around elemental absorption on the opposing team.  You could learn only Nether Earth and Oil, then use Oil to get around enemy earth absorption at the expense of a turn.  This can also synergize with other elemental skill users on your team, like Monks or Samurai.  As for a battle animation, it could recycle Poison's with a palette swap (if that's possible), or it could appropriate one of the Bio animations following a reduction of the Bio series.

I wouldn't want to add status ailments to any of these spells in order to keep the skill set viable for elemental healing.  Low-faith teams are in sore need of AoE healing outside Draw Out, and Netherseers on Wind/Earth/Holy absorb teams can fill this role.  Wind and Earth can be absorbed by clothes wearers (squires, archers, etc.), and Holy can be absorbed by robe wearers (paladins, samurai, etc.)

I don't like Mirror Shield and Always: Reflect because it completely shuts down Yin Yang Magic.  There is no need to bother with status immunities when a single shield protects you from everything Oracles can throw at you.  I understand that Always: Reflect also interferes with White Magic support, but I am nevertheless hesitant.  On the other hand, I am perfectly fine with a Mirror Shield with Initial: Reflect and other perks, like decent P-EV and/or M-EV.

Concerning long bows, is it OK if we remove all SP bonuses?  In exchange, we can give them +1 WP or extra range.  This isn't so much to weaken long bows as it is to make 8 SP melee units viable.  Archers already have 9 base SP.  In my opinion, letting them reach 10 SP with a long-range, high-WP weapon with a status proc to boot outclasses what an 8 SP Paladin gets with shields.

I think giving Windslash Bow a percentage boost as well is OK.

Edit: The more I think about Netherseer, the more I come to like it. If the spells are PA-based, then Squires, Paladins, male Geomancers, and male Samurai can comfortably use them as well.  All of these classes can equip robes, so they can attain decent MP.  Furthermore, if the EV reaction ability is implemented, then Squires, Paladins, and Geomancers can cast the spells while maintaining their shield's functionality.  Paladin's could boost Nether Holy with Excalibur and self-heal with Chameleon Robe.  Nether Holy has a small MP cost, so Paladins won't be impaired by their low base MP.  All shield-wearers could boost Nether Wind with Kaiser Plate.  All could absorb Nether Earth with Diamond Armlet while utilizing the +1 PA to boost spell damage and protecting themselves from Slow 2.  All could equip Punch Art to effectively replenish their MP upon its depletion, or they could equip Jump and turn themselves into Lancers to pierce reflect and M-EV.  The possibilities go on and on.  In comparison to these classes, Netherseer has the most PA, but the lowest HP and has no access to shields, so it serves as the glass cannon of Nether magic, just as the wizard is the glass cannon of faith magic.

Barren

When you put it that way I guess I can live with initial reflect. I just think that reflect funsies are needed more often. Also removing the speed bonuses for long bows is fine but the percentage procs like holy and hurricane needs a buff to compensate
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CT5Holy

Netherseer sounds awesome. If we use the Dancer job slot though, can we make it so Netherseer is available to both sexes?
Winner of the 1st FFT 1.3 AI Tourney

silentkaster

Hmmm. I'm not sure why so many people are pro-removing speed. Lancers are kind of a meh class already since they can't equip robes (unsure of why that was removed to start?), they're slow, and their skill set can easily backfire not only on sleeping units, but the AI "forgets" about a jump sometimes, so it will kill a unit that is targeted by a lethal jump already. On top of that, it makes the skillset very static, only able to cause a 1 target damage unlike other skillsets like Summon Magic which gives healing, damage, revival in AOE fashion. And Yes, there are a few benefits to Jump like Jumping out of spells before they resolve or to avoid poison, but this is this really worth all the problems with Jump?

It sounds reasonable to argue to make spears +X Jump except that when we look at the statistics in the tournament, not one person used +1 or +2 Jump. Three units used Ignore Height, yes, but I feel even those were oversights. Teleport is obviously better since it allows you to not only move as much height as you want but to also go through enemies and other obstacles, but Fly provides almost all the same benefit (there are exceptions, like in the Nelveska Temple map, but I digress). Most people knew that, and we see that 14 units have teleport. So when you decide to change the spear to +X Jump, you give very little reason for someone to use, say, Equip Polearm or the Lancer skillset in general.

You may say, "But that's why we're changing jump too to resolve faster!" Yes, but now you're decreasing one of the fewer benefits of Jump (if Jump resolves faster, this will mean that there is less chance for a Jumper to avoid a spell) to increase the likelihood that the AI will use jump. It still does not solve the obvious problems with Jump, like the AI using it to wake up (and kill) sleeping and charmed allies or the AI not recognizing their ally is going to resolve the jump and kills an enemy that was going to be killed by the Jump anyway.

I think it's a good start to buff Lancers, but why debuff their weapons so much? +X Jump is not a benefit that most people really want to begin with, and the primary purpose people equip spears currently is to A) Get the Jump bonus when using Jump or B) to increase the speed of units who have a speed based skillset like Talk Skill or Item to be more effective. The +2 speed on Javelin might be a bit obnoxious, but not when you consider that their primary users are just a meh class on most stats anyway.

Also, the +X speed is a non dependant ability. In almost all cases, regardless of the map or team they're facing, equipping speed on a particular unit benefits them. However, the +X Jump doesn't matter AT ALL on maps like Mandalia Plains, the Pub, or The Arena. Most of the Office maps it won't matter on either, and many others. It could be somewhat or very useful on some maps, but I'd even wager to say not the majority of them. Even +X Move would be better than +X Jump, as the designers of the maps have, in most cases, allowed +X Move to compensate if for some reason, a certain area of a map was only accessible to a +X Jump, but could be reached if the unit went around the obstacle like going up the stairs or something.

If we do remove +X speed from spears, I suggest boosting the Lancers considerably. I'm talking equip robes innately, boost PA to 12 for males, and increase base speed to 10.

As far as the +1 speed sword goes, I thought it would be nice, personally IF WE ALSO REMOVE +1 SPEED FROM SASUKE KNIFE. See, the +1 speed sword is heavily countered by the very good weapons you find in the sword field already. It may be a difficult choice, for say, a Martial Arts Dancer or Paladin to either equip the Lionheart or the +1 Speed sword. Both would be very useful. However, the Sasuke Knife is a Ninja Knife that has a pretty high WP on its own, but is balanced by the fact that it is not 2S or 2H. Well, ninjas aren't going to use it for the most part since that basically kills off a huge benefit to having a Ninja in the first place. So this leaves thieves, which if adding the +1 speed sword and removing the Sasuke Knife (or redesigning it...I'd say doing Always: Haste -1 Speed, which would beg for a redesign of the current trap weapon Masamune) would make the weapon not only accessible to thieves, but every class that can equip a sword (and there are a lot).

As far as the bows...eh...one of the problems with equipping a bow on the innate class is that you lose access to the Shield. Sure, you could add PA and the bows themselves would be as powerful, but it would slightly debuff them because the bows would be fired with less frequency. I guess if you added 2 PA to them, it would not debuff them, but then do you want to add 2 PA to the long bows? IDK how I feel about that, either.

If we want to talk about removing some weapons that provide benefits, let's talk about the +2MA weapons. There are literally a ton of these. In fact, every class except Ninja and Monk can innately equip at least one weapon that has greater WP, has some W-EV and is all around better than the C-Bag. Never mind the fact that Monks can't equip ANY weapons but bags, Ninjas can equip two Orichalcums to achieve a +2 MA effect, and that neither of these skill sets rely on MA at all (the lone, barely notable exception being Secret Fist from the Monk.)

The netherseer idea sounds pretty interesting. I'd love to see what we can do. I do have a couple comments on the suggestions posed.

Nether Earth needs a longer CT time if it will be PA*11 with AOE. A spell that strong that resolves in 3CT that can be boosted by Earth Clothes? I could see people using those monks now with Magic Attack UP and wrecking house (at least Focus Band would be used more often though). I'd suggest 5 CT on that. Maybe on Nether Holy too, though not sure.

I was thinking something that would be fun. A Nether Raise would be pretty cool. But what about adding a Nether Raise 2, where it Raises a dead unit with full HP but then makes them Undead when they get up? IDK, just a thought. I had been thinking about adding an ability like this to Geo or Wizard, but with this new skillset being proposed, that's something I'd be very interested in seeing.

Okay, done ranting now :D
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

dw6561

I agree, Netherseer sounds interesting. Having a raise spell that is unfaith based would be very beneficial. I don't think a move can inflict and cancel a status at the same time unless the two statii cancel each other out, so I don't know about the nether raise 2. And if we are making this class available to both genders, can we also make bard like that as well? I know there is some gender hard-coding involved with those classes.

Also, did anyone see my previous post? Sometimes I am too subtle for my own good.
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Gaignun

August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm #1777 Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 05:42:19 pm by Gaignun
Whoops.  Nether Earth 2 and Nether Holy 2 were supposed to have 5 CT.  The above post has been edited to reflect this intention.

@CT5Holy:
If we had male Netherseers, we would need a male Netherseer sprite.  Maybe we could merge the current Dancer and Bard sprites into a single class, then use entirely new male and female sprites for Netherseers.  I'm not sure of the work involved in this.

@silentkaster:
As for Jump and spears, I think that none of us can deny that the benefit of Jump is map-dependent, and even then it is something that most people can do without.  However, changing the Jump formula from SP to Jump gives players the opportunity to strongly influence the reliability of the Jump command.  One can leave the jump stat at 4 for a slow jump that is hard to land, but dodges spells, or one can max out the jump stat at 7 for a quick jump that can be used reliably to pierce evasion.  This is not possible with the current SP formula, since boosting SP to a comparable degree makes the unit broken in so many other ways. (E.g., 7 Jump would be equivalent to 17 SP.)  The new Jump formula also gives the Jump movement skills a new purpose, which is a motion I am always in favor of.

Spears' current SP bonus will be assimilated into the Lancer's base SP to ensure that Lancers will not be weakened by the change.

Equip Polearm will become less attractive as a support skill as far as SP boosting is concerned.  However, it will still have a purpose on units using the Jump command as a secondary skill, and on units who equip sticks.  All in all, the support skill takes a small hit; a price I am willing to pay for the above changes.

I am having difficulty following the proposal to give Lancers +2 SP and +2 PA if spears lose 1 SP.  Do you mean that the Lancer class needs +1 SP and +2 PA irrespective of the spear changes?

@dw6561:
I'll try commenting on a few of your changes.

Buffing Geomancers' PA/MA to 10/8 and 8/10: I think this change makes Squires less attractive on all fronts.  Squires have only 10/6 and 8/8 PA/MA, and worse, only 3 move.  The only jobs that can currently use Elemental better than Geomancers are Bards/Dancers and Scholars; three classes that may be redesigned in the next patch.  If these redesigns are implemented, Geomancers might just become the best users of Elemental.  All this aside, Geomancers are also the only class that can use Elemental well and equip a useful support skillset like White Magic or Time Magic.  These boons tend to compensate the slightly weaker Elemental damage in practice.

Samurai getting longbows and spears: I am in favour of this.  For what it's worth, samurai using longbows is historically accurate.

Sword changes: Most swords are more or less balanced with each other at the moment.  If we buff Platinum sword, we would need to adjust the other swords as well.  I must also remark that just because a particular weapon isn't being regularly used doesn't necessarily mean that it is underpowered.

Aegis Shield being too good: I personally think that the other shields are rather bad. In particular, the shields that give elemental weaknesses are hard to use on classes with no access to clothes.  Perhaps we can drop Aegis Shield's M-EV by 5~10 if need be.  Removing the +1 MA or Silence immunity would make the shield less attractive to mages, who learn Equip Shield specifically for those attributes.

0 WP bag: If any bag gets 0 WP, I suggest it be P Bag.

Oracles losing Blind: Not necessary in my opinion.  The problem with Blind isn't so much about its host skillset as it is about the AI being incapable of using it well.  One, the AI gives the Darkness status ailment a low priority, and two, the AI cannot discern which enemies rely on abilities that will be impaired by Darkness.  Unless somebody can convince me otherwise, I don't think these facts will change no matter which skillset we put Blind on.  This is why there's been a motion to add Darkness incidentally rather than especially, e.g., by having Grand Cross and Cyclops add Darkness.  This way, even if Darkness doesn't impair the target, the target at least suffers raw damage.

reinoe

A long time ago I suggest a movement ability that shortens the duration of negative status.  Instead of creating a new movement is it possible to attach such an ability directly to ignore height?

Speaking of movement abilities, what about a movement of speed +1?  I know it was suggested by Gaignun and it had a lot of support but it obviously wasn't implemented for 1.39.  Speculating about the ability I would say you can have it cost 750 jp and it would still probably get a lot of use.
My dreams can come true!

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on August 15, 2015, 05:10:48 pm
Whoops.  Nether Earth 2 and Nether Holy 2 were supposed to have 5 CT.  The above post has been edited to reflect this intention.

@CT5Holy:
If we had male Netherseers, we would need a male Netherseer sprite.  Maybe we could merge the current Dancer and Bard sprites into a single class, then use entirely new male and female sprites for Netherseers.  I'm not sure of the work involved in this.

@silentkaster:
As for Jump and spears, I think that none of us can deny that the benefit of Jump is map-dependent, and even then it is something that most people can do without.  However, changing the Jump formula from SP to Jump gives players the opportunity to strongly influence the reliability of the Jump command.  One can leave the jump stat at 4 for a slow jump that is hard to land, but dodges spells, or one can max out the jump stat at 7 for a quick jump that can be used reliably to pierce evasion.  This is not possible with the current SP formula, since boosting SP to a comparable degree makes the unit broken in so many other ways. (E.g., 7 Jump would be equivalent to 17 SP.)  The new Jump formula also gives the Jump movement skills a new purpose, which is a motion I am always in favor of.

Spears' current SP bonus will be assimilated into the Lancer's base SP to ensure that Lancers will not be weakened by the change.

Equip Polearm will become less attractive as a support skill as far as SP boosting is concerned.  However, it will still have a purpose on units using the Jump command as a secondary skill, and on units who equip sticks.  All in all, the support skill takes a small hit; a price I am willing to pay for the above changes.

Sword changes: Most swords are more or less balanced with each other at the moment.  If we buff Platinum sword, we would need to adjust the other swords as well.  I must also remark that just because a particular weapon isn't being regularly used doesn't necessarily mean that it is underpowered.


Okay, I LOVE the Netherseer idea.

As for Equip Polearm, it could be given access to Cloths (especially if Dancer is merged) and that'd somewhat balance Spears becoming a bit less useful for Speed and such.

And with all of the Sword changes, what do you think specifically should be done with them?

I mean, each as they are.
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