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FFT Arena: Balance Discussion Thread

Started by FFMaster, July 13, 2010, 07:56:57 pm

Shintroy

July 04, 2015, 06:55:47 am #1740 Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 11:25:11 pm by Shintroy
Welcome back FFMaster. Surprised to see a MP damaging weapon being suggested. I'd still prefer it on a ranged item since it can be paired with WP*PA abilities



Main Class - I think everyone can agree on summoner needing a slight HP buff to be a bit more viable as a main class and a bigger MP pool since summoner's known for being leagues ahead of all classes in MP.

Skillset - Summoner has a strong set of abilities in versatility, but I havne't really seen anyone really try to make use of it. Probably due to summoner having no answer for status effect or buffs making it hard to me to sole. Smart targetting makes summons not work on absorb teams and also makes the AI one demensional, only using summon magic offensively or defensively. Not really a bad thing since mimic summon is even stronger now due to Mime getting buffed in 139.

Moogle - Fine as is. MA*9 and Ally only?

Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh - Fine as is. 3 CT. Unevadable. 2 AoE paired with Magic Attack UP and strengthen element they're pretty strong spells at only 12 MA. As far as I know there hasn't been a strong showing with these spells.

Leviathan, Salamander - Needs a buff. I recommend 4 CT. Makes the spells more versatile instead of automatically being paired with Short Charge. Leviathan could use a 25-33% cancel status proc up from 20. MA*8 is fine sine these two have 3 AoE.

Titan - MA*9. 4 CT. Quake will still be stronger since it has a room place on absorb teams and may recieve a CT nerf. (I recommend 3 CT nerf for quake/tornado)

Fairy - Fine as is. 33% is more than enough HP to recover with. There's also always a chance of it hitting more than one unit since 1 AoE abilities are a thing.

Carbunkle - Fine as is.

Silf - Nerf to 4 CT. I'd reorganize summon magic so this is paired with the other tier 2 summons(Leviathan,Sala, Titan).

Odin - Buff to 5 CT

Bahamut - Buff to 6 CT

Lich - F(MA+55%) is questionable. I'd say fine as is since it's only been used  recently in 139.

Cyclops - The Holy Element is pretty weak at the moment as a whole. I'd call this a fine spell since it can be easily strengthened with Golden Hairpin and Prismatic Rod. Maybe at most get a 4 CT buff since it's holy elemental.

Zodiac - Fine as is. I haven't seen team use Zodiac in 139. It was great in with mime before since mime had incredible base stats.

Half of MP - Move to Time Mage


MP Restore/Short Charge - fine as is. I recommended CT buffs to and even number so summoner can make the most out of its own support ability. Summoner's MP recovery only comes into question rarely. Bizen Boat tends to be the only ability that can cripple a summoner only using Carbunkle for MP recovery.



No need to go back to 1.3 dagger with the SP. Where is the Damned when we need him ;;



Time Mage at 9 SP needs to stick. There's always Priest/White Magic for an 8 SP Haste 2 unit Priest has better status than Time Mage outside of SP so why is this a problem? Staple builds shouldn't have to suffer because no one's willing to explore other builds. Besides, if Haste and Slow 1 got buffs there wouldn't be as much of a problem with Time Mage being so linear. More JP for Time Magic units to spend makes for more progress to be made.

Haste/Slow - Buff to 75%

Stop - Nerf to 55%-60%. Hit rate is way too high on 40 faith units. At 60% it's just as powerful as Oracle's tier 2 spells Paralyze and Sleep.

Don't Move - Maybe change to enemy only and loser the hit%. 

Demi/Demi 2 - Underused spells. If it doesn't already do Max HP damage change it to that. Otherwise fine as is since the main reason people don't use it is due to JP restrictions and Demi being included with status spells.

If Time Mage gets the Half MP support the underused time magics will get more attention.



If there were more reflect options I think there would be a better caster/anti caster meta.

I'm all for Protect and Shell getting a low HP% heal so the AI uses them when needed. Regen could probably get the same treatment without it being OP. Masamune's used to remove poison and adds Haste. Why can't regen get the same treatment, but heal for a low percentage?

Protect/Shell - Heal 10% Hit_F(MA+75-80%) Add Status. 1 CT

Protect2/Shell2 - Heal 20% Hit_F(MA+90-100%) Add Status. 3 CT

Regen - Heal 10% Hit_F(MA+100%) Add Regen.  1 CT

Wall - Fine as is as an instant 100% hit buff.

Iron Will A Add Protect, Shell, Defend. Probably a bit much since it's likely the AI will use it at the start of the match. This takes away from Ragnarok and Save the Queen

Nurse - Fine as is. Adding critical only might cause more bad than good. 

Mad Science - With buffs to Regen, Paladin having a better Reraisee, and the AI not being able to use this to counter earth at 4CT , Scholar could do without this abililty. (replace with Dark Holy maybe?)


I'll wait for the AI tourament to be over to talk about the current meta. SP plays a huge part a team's success and being able to increase and decrease it mid battle is a bit overpowered. If SP altering abilities are removed entirely we can buff cursed ring to maybe 66% revival so more jobs can use the item reliably. Having another 9 sP class like Summoner or buffing SP gear would be more well recieved if SP stacking was removed as well.

I'm all for there being a reaction that allows for evasion during casting. Including it into awareness could definitely work since. Would this give berserked units evasion as well? 10/10 change if so.


I've made some tables for better comparison.

Elemental Abilities, by accessibility (139c)

Element     Jobs (# of abilities)               Target type
Fire        Wz(3),Su(2),Ge(2),Sm(1)             AoE(8)
Ice         Wz(3),Su(1),Ge(1),Sc(1)             AoE(5),Map(1)
Lightning   Wz(3),Su(1),Sc(1)                   AoE(4),Map(1)
Water       Wz(3),Su(1),Ge(2),Nj(1),Sc(1)       Single(1),AoE(6),Map(1)
Wind        Mk(1),Su(1),Ge(3),Sm(1),Nj(1),Sc(1) Single(2),AoE(5),Map(1)
Earth       Mk(1),Su(1),Ge(1),Sm(1),Sc(1)       Single(1),AoE(3),Linear(2)
Dark        Wz(1),Tm(2),Su(1),Sm(1),Nj(1),Sc(2) Single(2),AoE(5),Map(1)
Holy        Pr(2),Su(1)                         Single(2),AoE(1)



Fire
Fire, Nether Fire, Fire 2, Ifrit, Salamander, Demon Fire, Lava Ball, Asura
Ice
Ice, Nether Ice, Ice 2, Shiva, Blizzard, Rime Bolt
Lightning
Bolt, Nether Bolt, Bolt 2, Ramuh, Thunder Flare
Water
Water, Nether Water, Water 2, Leviathan, Water Ball, Quicksand, Suiton, Maelstrom
Wind
Wave Fist, Silf, Kamaitachi, Sand Storm, Gusty Wind, Heaven's Cloud, Fuuton, Tornado
Earth
Earth Slash, Titan, Local Quake, Kikuichimoji, Earth Dragon, Quake
Dark
Death, Demi, Demi 2, Odin, Koutetsu, Meiton, Shadow Shade, Bio 3
Holy
Dia, Holy, Cyclops



Elemental Weapons, by type (139c)

Element     Formula Type                      Distance
Fire        PA(2), MA(1), Faith(1)            Melee(3), Ranged(1)
Ice         PA(1), MA(1), PA/SP(1), Faith(1)  Melee(2), Ranged(2)
Lightning   MA(2), PA/SP(1), Faith(1)         Melee(2), Ranged(2)
Water       PA(1), MA(1), WP(1)               Melee(3)
Wind        PA(1), PA/SP(3), WP(1)            Melee(4), Ranged(1)
Earth       PA(2), PA/SP(1)                   Melee(3)
Dark        PA(1), WP(1)                      Melee(2)
Holy        PA(2), MA(1), PA/SP(1)            Melee(3), Ranged(1)



Fire
Phoenix Blade, Asura Knife, Flame Rod, Blaze Gun
Ice
Ice Brand, Ice Rod, Glacier Gun, Ice Bow
Lightning
Thunder Rod, Mace of Zeus, Blast Gun, Lightning Bow
Water
Coral Sword, Aspergillum, Whale Whisker
Wind
Air Knife, Iga Knife, Heaven's Cloud, Spiked Fuuton, Windslash Bow
Earth
Koga Knife, Kikuichimonji, Giant Axe
Dark
Koutestsu, Sadists whip
Holy
Excalibur, White Staff, Silver Bow, Holy Lance
All (not in table)

Rainbow Staff


The idea of having Lightning on Elemental could work but I think 'Enemy Only' should be removed too. Not like friendly fire happens often with that anyway. If that's really an issue, Shields could get a status immunity to whatever they absorb (e.g. Mythril Shield gets Immune: Petrify to cancel the Petrify procs from Local Quake). As for weapons, well the Dragon Breath proc spears could actually have their respective elements. Maybe something like the Ninja Edge could be Lightning elemental too.

[/quote]


Holy Elemental weapons could use some changes. Cursed Ring being the biggest counter to the holy element isn't as big of a problem for weapons mainly used by classes that counter undead. Silver Bow has Seal Evil. Excalibur has Consecration. White Staff is a terrible item as it is since Healing staff strengthens holy, has 12 WP and +1 SP. Definitely in the novelty item category at the moment. Holy Lance can only be used by Lancer and while jump is non elemental, it's not as reliable since Jump is too situational as is.



Main Class - Makes for a mediocre jump unit, but works better using some secondary since it has Javelin, armor and shields. Probably on the same level as summoner in terms of viablity maybe worse since Jump's pretty bad

Jump - Jump CT being based off of Jump instead of SP would definitely make lancers the best class for using jump since Laner currently has the highest base Jump in the game. Changing Jump's element to weapon sounds like a good idea as well. If not then give Jump the option to be paired up with Attack UP.

Spears - These suggustions as based off of Jump CT being changed.

Javelin 10 WP, +1 SP, +1 Jump - 2H Yes

Ice Lance/Spear 11 WP, Ice Element, +1 Jump 2H Yes (Kaiser Shield vs 2H)

Lava Spear - 13 WP Fire Element, +1 Jump 2H Yes

Gae Bolg 12 WP Lightning Element, +1 Jump, 2H Yes

Mythril Spear - 9-11 WP, +2 MA, +1 Jump, 2H No (Keep in mind Lnc can use poles)

Holy Lance 10-14 WP, Holy Elemental +1 Jump, Strengthen Holy(?) 2H(?)

Gungnir A 12-14 WP, Always Transparent, +1 Jump 2H No(not OP since Jump is already 100%)

Gungnir B 10-14 WP, Dark elemental, +1 Jump  20% Add Dead 2H No

Dragon Whisker 13 WP +1 PA +1 Jump 2H Yes (Not as OP as 2H Katar since Lancer can't stack PA like Thief could Stack SP) Even if Lancer

Main Class Lancer - If Spears and Jump alone got buffed then Lancer automatically becomes a better class with 139 stats. If SP boosting gets removed then give Lancer 9SP. If a +1 SP Helm gets introduced at all then keep lancer at 8 SP.



Bad Luck What about making this a random add buff/debuff similar to the juggler class from FFTA?

2 CT, MP 10, Hit 100%, 1 Range,  100% Random Add Haste, Slow, Death Sentence, Regen

No idea how the AI will act with this. I'm sure there's a combination that makes the AI only use this on enemies without making it only target enemies.

Spell Absorb, Life Drain Instead of going by % make it go by MA* or Max MA/PA*

Non Elemental Geomancy Dmg (((PA/2)+2)*MA+1 or 2

Elemental Geomancy Dmg_ ((PA+2)/2*(MA+1)

Mudvayne requested a buff to Geomancy/Elemental. I think giving giving non elemental geomancy a better formula and slightly boosting elemental geomancy damage is the best way to go.


Death Sentence Currently unused due to some items not being immune to both dead and death sentence. I'm looking forward to these items being fixed and the return of defensive and absorb teams using death sentence.

Gold Armor, Genji Shield mainly. Chammeleon Robe and Angel Ring could be looked at to be safe.

Mirror Shield I like the idea of this being Always reflect. Raise 2 might have to be unreflectable with this in the game. I can see a lot of cursed ring units being paired up with This shield like Flash Hat was in the past. Cure 4 and Raise 2 will still be able to take down Cursed Ring units. It's not like Cursed ring is 100% revival anyway.


Fire and Ice Shield can remain the same.

Wizard and Dracula Mantle can remain the same

Genji Shield Make it the polar opposite of Aegis Shield. 5 M-EV, 30 P-EV. Immune Darkness +1 PA.

Mythril, Gold, Diamond, Platina Shield Give each shield 2  status immunity from the armor and helmet.

Gold Shield - Immune Frog, Dead, Death Sentence

Mythril Shield - There's no Mythril Armor and Immune Slow could be on Zephyr Shield. Either Immune Faith/Inonocent or replaced by Mirror Shield

Platina -Immune Poison, Stop (maybe combined 139 crystal shield and platina helm)

Diamond - Immune Don't move, Berserk

Zephyr Shield - Name Change Immune Slow. (giving sprint shoes and this the same slow immunity either balances SP stacking or unbalances it since you can have 4 units with +1 SP and slow immunity)

Crystal Shield - P-EV 15% M-EV 15% Immune Oil, Neutral All Elements

Escutcheon II - Fine as is.

Small Mantle - There's already Feather Boots and Float for earth immunity. Holy isn't affected by the oil changes in 139. Not sure what this can be changed to really

Vanish Mantle - Initial Transparent.




Clothes - Why not make them  similar to Harps stat and effect wise?

Persia - +2 PA , 12 WP

Cashmere - Heal HP 12 WP (gives dancer more options with Kagesougi, Hawk's eye and other PA*WP abilities)

Ryozan Silk - There's no opposite of Charm so what about giving Dancer a 100% Cancel positive status weapon? If it's possible to make this 100% cancel charging then give it that instead.

--------------
10 SP Time Mage sounds like a bit much. I'm all for it if SP stacking is removed and Cursed Ring gets a slight increase in revival %. Looking forward to Rainbow Staff, 12 SP Cursed Ring Balance Time Mage.

---------------

Is it possible for brown to be replaced by brown without changing the crystal colors? If so can we swap it in? Brown's the least used color in 139 and purple was a popular color when it worked so I don't see why not.
Some day my people will be free.

silentkaster

FFMaster! Welcome back...good to see you.

I have limited time on a laptop so I'm gonna get right into it...I'd been saying for a while I was going to post about the shields and other things here...but haven't had the opportunity.

Anyway, I'll try to spoiler everything so people reading only have to read what they might be interested in.


I think Shields definitely need a refreshing...I'll go over them here.

Aegis Shield: Only Shield I think is actually somewhat OP. 30% M-EV +1 MA and Immunity to Silence? That's not so bad except when you see that its counterpart (either the Genji Shield or the Crystal Shield, depending on how you look at them, but I'll get to them in a minute) don't reach quite the same measure. Most people relying on MA (not all mind you but quite a few) will have a large benefit with immunity to silence while giving themselves a hefty defense against enemy magic. But the other shields provide immunities to a status which may or may not be relevant (Okay, Immunity to dead could always be relevant to any unit, but it isn't a status like Berserk or Silence that makes the unit pretty much a waste.) I think decreasing this shield's evasion to match Genji's P-EV is in order or perhaps just Double (at 20% M-EV). (I do realize that since they'll be using magic sometimes and therefore charging, the evade won't come into play so it's helpful to be slightly above its counterpart but I think 30% is a bit much considering everything else you get.)

Zephyr Shield/Swift Plate: Fine as it is...I know Barren advocated boosting this shield a little bit, but in reality, this shield gives a speed point which is helpful all across the board. This can kind of be a free point of speed for many units and gives slight evasion to boot, so I don't think this needs a boost.

Genji Shield: I think this shield is fine as it is, also. It provides an immunity to a status that is universally helpful while providing PA and slight evasion. It's a solid contender among some of the other shields.

Escutcheon II: This shield seems fine as well. It's used on evasion tanks and increasing the evasion may not be what's best.

Kaiser Plate: Good for Grand Crossers with the Air Knife and Ice Brand, specifically. I think a decent dark weapon needs to be added to give this shield max potential without being OP but we can discuss that later...

Crystal Shield: I think this is a terrible shield in current gameplay. In the last patch, it had more overall evasion which I think made it a bit more tempting. However, now I just feel it's kinda bad. Sure, it grants immunity to Oil and neutralizes all elements, but the only set up that could be relevant with is with the cursed ring and trying to get rid of the fire weakness. And the immunity to Oil is wasted on this particular unit since dark isn't affected by oil (with the exception of equipping your unit with something else that absorbs an element.) So, in essence, the only unit that could take full advantage of this shield is a highly physical evasive unit who is wearing a cursed ring that is on an elemental absorb team that isn't absorbing Dark or Fire...hmmm...

Furthermore, another drawback of this shield is that it actually hampers the effectiveness of other equipment including the widely used Flash Hat and White Robe. This will actually backfire on those units negating the halving of those pieces of equipment.

Finally, it could even backfire on that set up since a unit could evade its own absorb from its teammates (or itself, though that's kind of a chance with any unit running any type of evade and using elemental ways to heal themselves.)

What I think should happen will be listed below after I discuss...

Every Other Shield: I'm not a fan of any of the other shields. They could be useful if it weren't for the "Weak: X" following the element they absorb. I get that it's for dual absorbing elements and making teams that can absorb several. But the drawback of the shield will sometimes make it a liability and harder to build equipment around. I think they can at least get rid of the Weak: X but that's just me.

I think the Shields should give initial buffs. (Initial Haste, Protect, Shell, Reflect, Innocent and Faith; one of these on each that currently Absorb/Weak to elements) and the Crystal Shield should be a shield that absorbs water, since there are only two pieces of equipment that currently grant water absorb.



If I don't mention a class, I think it's fine.

Monk: I'd like to see the female have an initial 11 PA if possible. They only have one more MA than the male but trail the male by three points in PA...Female Monks are good for tanky dancing and not much else, unfortunately.

Squire: I'd like to see Heal actually cure Berserk (only Refute and Echo Grass currently do).

Chemist: Is it possible they can get something that can cure Charm? I'm not saying I actually want this but it'd be interesting to see how people feel.

Priest: I'd like to see Regen be an instant cast...I think it would be used more often and the unit can feel the effects immediately.

Wizard: I wouldn't mind seeing the water spells swapped with the Bio spells...this would make the Scholar have ALL elemental spells while the Wizard would have some elemental and some not.

Time Mage: I guess I wouldn't mind seeing a 10 Speed TM with making the necessary HP/MP adjustments. After all, Thieves are a really good class and the Time Mage doesn't have great stats going for it, so I'd be alright with increasing the speed while decreasing HP/MP.  Also, Chrono Trigger...it's a nifty idea, but I was thinking maybe Sunken State (moved to Thief or something) or making this the "Mage evasion" reaction.

Summoner: I looked over Gaignun's suggestions and thought they sounded pretty good...I'd be fine seeing those changes I think (including moving Half of MP to TM).


Thief: Bad Luck is pretty terrible, I have to say. I looked at Shintroy's idea, and I'd be okay with something like that if the risk/reward ratio was higher for the attacking unit. For example: 100% Add Random: Dead, Petrify, Reraise, Regen. Then, there's a 50% chance that unit is going down or getting a decent buff, and that's fair since the move still costs CT to use (and can therefore be mid-charged) and also costs MP (which a Thief doesn't have much of to begin with.)

Mediator: I'm not sure why Refute no longer can "mid-charge" but can we bring that back? Its hit % isn't that high to begin with, and it's a cool way to disrupt an enemy unit, as well as have a risk/reward ratio for friendly units (it's not often, but I have seen a friendly mediator refute their own unit who was charging a spell because the unit was poisoned or DS or something, and it's fun AI shenanigans!)

Oracle: Why were Pray Faith and Doubt Faith removed? There may be a good reason, I'm just not aware of it...but I wouldn't mind seeing those back in action.

Geomancer: I'd like to see their stats go back up to 10/8 and 8/10. Also, I was reading the ideas about elemental. Keep in mind that elemental doesn't cost MP, is unevadable and can proc a status in addition to damage. I have a team where the Bard is 12/15 and does over 120 damage with elemental (more when he starts singing magic song, obviously.) So...while I don't necessarily mind seeing Elemental boosted, I would rather see the Geomancer class itself buffed, or perhaps, give it a post on the PA side (like PA+3 instead of +2). The Geo starting with odd numbers really makes a big difference since elemental damage will round down on the PA side, so I'd advocate them starting at even numbers instead.

Scholar: I'd like to see Mad Science moved over to Time Mage so that they have some kind of healing/support ability. Also, I'm torn on this, but Damage Split could probably use a very minor buff...like to 35 or 40%.

I probably have other stuff I want to see but I'm eager to move on to the next category so if I come up with something, I'll edit it on my phone.



Knives:
Repel Knife: I think needs to have its proc have a lower percentage. While it could backfire somewhat if a unit has DA immunity, it's still vastly powerful. I think 35% would be fine.

Mage Masher: I think boosting its proc a bit, to 33% would be ideal.

Katar: I think adding 10% PA evade or two WP would help it to see more use.

Ninja Swords:
Hidden Knife: Perhaps lowering its WP to 9 would be fine...I think 8 was a bit low, 10 was a bit much...I think 9 is great.

Swords:
Mystic Blade: I think adding Immune: Berserk would see this weapon get a lot more action...it's clearly designed for Geomancy but in balancing stats, it's often overlooked...so therefore I think that adding an immunity would help it see more action.

Platinum Sword: This sword is overlooked since Lionheart pretty much overshadows it in the 2H department...while other swords are more attractive in the 2S department because they can proc status (and stronger weapons exist in the 1H departments for things like Southern Cross and whatnot). I think this could become a good Holy or Dark weapon for people to play with GC on those two elements more. Perhaps: 14 WP 10% evade Element: Dark 25% Proc: Demi

Shieldrender: This needs a little bit more WP to be relevant again, IMO.

Rune Blade: I think this sword is starting to be overshadowed by every other +2 MA weapon out there. Giving this sword extra evade might be in order (extra WP won't help since it's a PA*WP weapon) or something else to make it stand out...not sure what.

Ultima Weapon: I think it should gain 2S, but lower the proc to 20%.

Katana:
Kotetsu: Increase to 10 WP

Masamune: Either change the -2 to -1 SP, or VASTLY improve the WP (I'm talking 14 WP still using 2H). This weapon can not benefit anyone. A thief breaks even if using Equip Heavy Blade and cannot be hasted to increase their speed (since they're already hasted). On the other hand, slow cripples the unit that uses this weapon, especially since they can't add haste back. Also, if just increasing it to -1 SP, at least make this guy Immune: Slow and if you do leave it the way it is with -2 Speed and not increasing the WP, at the very least please add Always: Regen because this weapon is really unusable.

Axes:
Battle Axe: Could just be my imagination, but is Battle Axe only proccing at 25%? It seems much higher in the tests I'm running.

Rods:
Dragon Rod: I think Bahamut could go off 33% of the time and this weapon still not be OP. It's currently very underused.

Staves:
White Staff: There really is no place currently for this Staff, since every other staff provides something else that the equipper would be looking for...I was thinking possibly make it Immune to certain statii...perhaps DA, Sleep, Poison or others. Just two statii that are somewhat lethal in general would probably give this staff a lot more use.

Gold Staff: Better than the current White Staff, but still doesn't have much place. I'd like to see the WP increased perhaps to 10.

Guns:
Mythril Gun: I think that this would be really fun shooting Demi or Demi 2 (which Demi could be unevadable but if Demi 2 is chosen, I'd still like it to be evadable and faith based for it hitting in general.) As I also said, a Brave based healing gun would also be fun, or adding 1 speed.

Romanda Gun: Okay as is

Every other Gun: Yeah, still sticking to my guns (Har har har) about these. I feel these are underpowered as is...less range, forced 2h and 108 Gems was debuffed also. I think that increasing the range back would be completely fine, or keeping the four range but having them equip a shield again would be okay too. Again, the only shield that can boost a gun is the Kaiser Plate which currently only boosts Ice...so it would require that Shield and Gun combo. If we're concerned about that being OP, we could always switch the Defense Ring or Magic Ring to absorb Ice...(which I'll get to later). At least change the Stone Gun...it can't one shot anyone and you have to start off petrified to boot.

Bows:
Long Bow: I think it could add the +1 Speed like the other bows have (the range doesn't help that much, really and its WP is lower than some of the other Bows).

Atheist Bow: It has the most WP of all the bows and adds 100% innocent...though its range is shorter, I think that at least lowering its WP is in order...maybe to 13.

Spears:
All Spears: Yeah, what everyone else is saying, basically. I'm not a fan of the Lancer in general, and boosting and rearranging the spears will probably make them a lot less meh. I also think the Holy Lance should be changed to a Wind Weapon like...Tornado Pole: Element: Wind 10% W-EV Proc: Tornado 30% (I change it to wind because...)

Sticks:
Iron Fan: Eh, increase its weapon power a bit or have it an elemental weapon where the element doesn't appear in the spears. For example: Iron Fan: Element: Holy 15% W-EV, Proc: Dia 20% (as long as you change the White Staff to something that doesn't proc Dia, of course.)

Cloths: I read over Shintroy's proposals...I'm going to say that they don't need to rival the Bard's weapons. I love the +2 PA option, and I like the "Cancel: Charging" option (especially with mages gaining that reaction ability to possibly evade), but a healing cloth? I would say perhaps with a buff...like Always: Regen or something. But there is a distinct liability in having a healing weapon that has to be overcome, and it's unlikely players will use this for Kagesougi dancers since they have access to swords which are more powerful (for instance, the Platinum Sword in its current form would be better for Kagesougi since it's 2S-able, despite it's lowered range...it can deal twice as much damage potentially), and that it would have to be 100% hit for it to be effective as a "Healing Cloth." But with a proper buff, it could be doable (that +1 SP on healing staff makes a huge difference, so it would need something to put it in contention with that.)


Defense Ring/Magic Ring: I think this should be changed to Absorb: Ice (instead of Lightning) and Magic Ring changed to Absorb: Lightning (getting rid of Absorb Earth). The reason is because there is already another, good accessory that absorbs earth (Diamond Armlet) as well as a Mantle that negates it, a Shield and clothes that absorb Earth, as well as Float which negates Earth (admittedly, if we change shields to not absorb anymore, I would entertain the idea of Earth being absorbed by, say, Reflect Ring or something).

108 Gems: Please at least bring back Immune: Poison. There is currently other accessory that is Immune: Poison.


These are just scattered thoughts that I have right now that I'd like to see changed...I'm kinda in a crunch for time writing this so I probably have more things I want to say but...good start for my opinions for now...

Thanks again FFMaster, and either way it goes I really enjoy the game even if you change nothing. Your work is definitely appreciated.
You've stepped in puddles less shallow than me.

Gaignun

A few comments:

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmAegis Shield: Only Shield I think is actually somewhat OP. ... (I do realize that since they'll be using magic sometimes and therefore charging, the evade won't come into play so it's helpful to be slightly above [Genji Shield]...)


I think you hit the nail on the head here.  It's a mage's shield so there's the risk of being midcharged.  Furthermore, most mages cannot equip shields, so they'll need to sacrifice their support ability to equip it.  When nerfing Aegis shield, it is good to bear in mind that it'll affect squire-mages and geomancer-mages the most.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmCrystal Shield: I think this is a terrible shield in current gameplay. ...

Every Other Shield: I'm not a fan of any of the other shields. ...


I agree with these comments.  In particular, apart from Cursed Ring, the elemental shields stand alone as the only pieces of equipment that make its user weaker to stuff.  These weaknesses are particularly hard to cover on units that can't equip clothes.  I wouldn't mind if these shields were changed up a bit. 

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmMonk: I'd like to see the female have an initial 11 PA if possible. They only have one more MA than the male but trail the male by three points in PA...Female Monks are good for tanky dancing and not much else, unfortunately.


I don't believe it is possible to individually tune each gender's stats at the moment, unfortunately. 

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Squire: I'd like to see Heal actually cure Berserk (only Refute and Echo Grass currently do).


I'm OK with this.  Maybe give it 3 range while we're at it so squires can do a better job as cheap White Magic supports.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Chemist: Is it possible they can get something that can cure Charm? I'm not saying I actually want this but it'd be interesting to see how people feel.


Don't Chemists break charm well enough with guns?  (I'm not sure about this one.)

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pmThief: Bad Luck is pretty terrible, I have to say. ...


How about scrapping the "luck" part of it altogether and giving it a new purpose?  Something like Steal HP/MP.  It would be really cool if we could implement "Steal Positive Statii," but I won't hold my breath.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Platinum Sword: This sword is overlooked since Lionheart pretty much overshadows it in the 2H department...while other swords are more attractive in the 2S department because they can proc status (and stronger weapons exist in the 1H departments for things like Southern Cross and whatnot). I think this could become a good Holy or Dark weapon for people to play with GC on those two elements more. Perhaps: 14 WP 10% evade Element: Dark 25% Proc: Demi


Many moons ago, we gathered a few suggestions for new swords.  I'll reprint them here:

Balmung: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, Dark Element, 50% Cast: Stop, 2H, 2S
Kazekiri: 10 WP, 10 W-EV, Wind Element, +1 Range, 2S
Sword of Storms: 9 WP, 10 W-EV, Lightning Element, 33% Add: DM or DA, 2H, 2S

I'm not sure how relevant any of these are to the current patch.   I thought the Balmung was pretty cool at the time.  It's a faith sword that doesn't need high MA to be effective.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Rune Blade: I think this sword is starting to be overshadowed by every other +2 MA weapon out there. Giving this sword extra evade might be in order (extra WP won't help since it's a PA*WP weapon) or something else to make it stand out...not sure what.


While not particularly unique, I think it's fine.  It's right at home on mage Bards and Geomancers.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Masamune: Either change the -2 to -1 SP, or VASTLY improve the WP (I'm talking 14 WP still using 2H). This weapon can not benefit anyone. A thief breaks even if using Equip Heavy Blade and cannot be hasted to increase their speed (since they're already hasted). On the other hand, slow cripples the unit that uses this weapon, especially since they can't add haste back. Also, if just increasing it to -1 SP, at least make this guy Immune: Slow and if you do leave it the way it is with -2 Speed and not increasing the WP, at the very least please add Always: Regen because this weapon is really unusable.


I am with you on this one.  Immune: Slow would be nice at the very least.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Gold Staff: Better than the current White Staff, but still doesn't have much place. I'd like to see the WP increased perhaps to 10.


This weapon will be good if battle mages become a thing.  Dual-wielding Gold Staff in one hand and a destructive weapon in the other will allow one to both debuff a target and deal damage at the same time.  Its W-EV is great, to boot.

Quote from: silentkaster on July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm
Every other Gun: Yeah, still sticking to my guns (Har har har) about these. I feel these are underpowered as is...less range, forced 2h and 108 Gems was debuffed also. I think that increasing the range back would be completely fine, or keeping the four range but having them equip a shield again would be okay too. Again, the only shield that can boost a gun is the Kaiser Plate which currently only boosts Ice...so it would require that Shield and Gun combo. If we're concerned about that being OP, we could always switch the Defense Ring or Magic Ring to absorb Ice...(which I'll get to later). At least change the Stone Gun...it can't one shot anyone and you have to start off petrified to boot.


I personally think magic guns are fine.  They're still good on units with Pilgrimage, and they're scary if another unit applies Faith to targets with a Spell Edge.  Whatever changes, I would discourage removing forced-2H.  Otherwise, archers will start using magic guns over longbows all over again.


That's all for now.  It'll be easier to evaluate proposals once we start to obtain consensus on things.

Kurosabes

I've compiled a few pages of suggestions for 140. It's not complete, I've run out of time. I'll be moving tomorrow and don't know when I'll be getting internet back, so I'll post what I have now (including a few new ideas of my own)

Green = Buff
Maroon = Nerf
Blue = Neutral
Red = Contested changes


Paladin
C-EV% increased to 5

Priest
Loses Regen

Wizard
Loses Water, Nether Water, Water 2, Poison and Frog
Gains Bio, Nether Bio (Bio 2), Bio 2 (Bio 3)

Bio: 50% Add: Poison

Time Mage
Gains Regen, Poison

Stop: Hit_F(MA+60%) or 5 CT
Regen: 0 CT, Ally Only
Poison: 0 CT, Enemy Only

Thief
Quickening is either scrapped (contested) or moved to another job such as Time Mage. Either way, Thief would lose it.
Loses Heretic

Bad Luck: No consensus except for how terrible it is now

Mediator
Blackmail: 200 JP
Stall: 250 JP

Oracle
Gains Frog

Life Drain: Non-reflectable
Spell Absorb: Non-reflectable

Lancer
Gains Robes, Lose Shields

The purpose behind the idea is to make the Jump stat more valuable. Overall the CT would just be slightly lower. Jump can be stacked up to a value of 7. Raising this cap would require ASM.

3 Jump: 7 CT
4 Jump: 6 CT
5 Jump: 5 CT
6 Jump: 4 CT
7 Jump: 3 CT

We would see actual use for Jump+1 and Jump+2 as a result. Spears would probably get a +Jump treatment instead of +Speed as a result. Their native speed would go up to 9.

Gains innate Two Hands

Samurai/Draw Out
Gains Longbows
Lose innate Two Hands. See Katanas under the Item spoiler to see why.
Draw Out requires a Katana equipped (or Longbow, if the above is implemented)

Asura: 3 directional
Bizen Boat: 1 AoE (Arguably not really a nerf, since you're less likely to hit your own allies. I've heard about how the AI can be derpy with this ability)
Murasame: 1 AoE
Heaven's Cloud: Enemy Only and/or 100 JP
Masamune: 300 JP

Ninja/Ninjitsu
Gains Heretic

Scholar/Lore
Tornado: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable
Quake: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable

Bard/Sing
Angel Song: 50% Cancel: Silence
Life Song: 5 CT, Heal_HP(MA+23), 25% Random: Regen - Reraise or 50% Cancel: Blind
Battle Song: Hit_(50%) PA+1
Magic Song: Hit_(50%) MA+1
Nameless Song: No real consensus. Suggestions include moving Regen and/or Transparent here and removing Reraise, or canceling negative status
Last Song: 8-9 CT, Non-Mimic

Warcry: A song that could increase the Brave values of your party. Higher hit rate than Battle Song
Faith Song: A song that could increase the Faith values of your party. Higher hit rate than Magic Song


Dancer/Dance
Wiznaibus: 50% Add: Blind
Witch Hunt: 50% Add: Silence, 0 MP
Polka Polka: Hit_(50-66%) PA-1
Disillusion: Hit_(50-66%) MA-1
Nameless Dance: No real consensus. Suggestions include moving Poison and/or adding Don't Move and removing Silence, or canceling positive status
Last Dance: 8-9 CT, Hit_(20%) CT 00 or Non-Mimic

War Dance: A dance that could decrease the Brave values of the enemy's party. Higher hit rate than Polka Polka
Wizardry: A dance that could decrease the Faith values of the enemy's party. Higher hit rate than Disillusion



Swords/Straight swords
Phoenix Blade: 15-20 W-EV%, Immune:Undead - Petrify - Crystal - Treasure, Initial: Reraise removed
Ice Brand: 13 WP

Katanas
(IMO, Katanas should go Forced 2 hands and get an overall WP increase, so you might see Paladins actually use them since right now, they have to compete with swords, who have higher WP. Knight Swords are defensive, while Katanas lean on the offensive. Samurais would lose innate 2 hands, and possibly the Two Hands support. This would go to Lancers, who would lose shields in the process.)


Asura Knife: 9 WP, +1 PA, Strengthen: Fire - Ice - Lightning
Koutetsu Knife: 10 WP, Strengthen: Holy - Dark
Bizen Boat: +1 MA
Murasame: 13 WP
Heaven's Cloud: 8 WP, Strengthen: Earth - Wind - Water
Kiyomori: Loses MA bonus, Immune: Blind
Muramasa: Revert to 138 version (I guess this is considered a buff, as current Muramasa is hardly used)
Masamune: Needs a buff of some kind, but no consensus
Chirijiraden: +1 Speed replaced with +1 Move

Staves
Gold Staff: +1 Move

Guns
Mythril Gun: Redesigned into Demi Gun/Healing Gun/Esuna Gun
Stone Gun: 6 Range

Longbows
Ice Bow: Remove MA bonus
Lightning Bow: Remove MA bonus
Silver Bow: 13 WP

Spears
+1 Jump across all spears, +1 Speed removed
Ice/Flame/Thunder Lance/Spear: Ice/Fire/Lightning elemental, Absorb: Ice/Fire/Lightning

Bags
C Bag: MA bonus reduced/removed, possibly gets some status immunities
P Bag: Status immunities

Cloths/Veils
No real consensus, as far as I've seen

Helmets
Genji Helmet: 70 HP, Loses Initial: Berserk, +1 Speed

Headbands
Some different ideas for headbands, but not really any consensus.

Armor
Reflect Mail: Always: Reflect

Robes
Silk Robe: Immune: Berserk

Accessories
108 Gems: Strengthen: All, Immune: Poison
N-Kai Armlet: Immune: Charm - Undead - Blind, Absorb: Dark



- Re-add a 'Check CT/Target' flag to Reraise since it (once more) has CT and can Follow Targets

Status:
- Undead cancels and cannot stack with Regen/Poison

ShiShi:
- Swap/Fix Yellow/Purple female Summoner's palettes
- Change back Thief to TYPE1, Scholar to TYPE2

Master Guide:
- Female Geomancer should be 4 Move
- Rainbow Staff is Non-elemental
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Gaignun

July 11, 2015, 08:55:27 am #1744 Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 09:03:24 am by Gaignun
My input:

Paladin
C-EV% increased to 5

Pretty cool with.

Time Mage
Gains Regen, Poison

Not OK.  I believe that Time Magic should have no healing (apart from Demi absorb).  I'd rather buff it and leave it on Priests or put it on a redesigned Scholar.  I feel less strongly about Poison.  While I am OK with it leaving Wizard, again I would rather see it on a redesigned Scholar, one who is focused on emaciating the enemy with reliable DoTs and light damage.

Wizard
Loses Water, Nether Water, Water 2, Poison and Frog
Gains Bio, Nether Bio (Bio 2), Bio 2 (Bio 3)

Not OK.  Wizards should have no conventional non-elemental damage.  They deal heavy burst AoE damage but cannot get around elemental defense without Oil.  Also, Water is an under-represented element.  I would hate to see it disappear.

Stop: Hit_F(MA+60%) or 5 CT

My vote is for lower accuracy.  Keep it easy to use.

Regen: 0 CT, Ally Only
Poison: 0 CT, Enemy Only

0 CT will not provide very much benefit to Regen.  A 0 CT Cure already keeps its caster alive from poison damage.
While I wouldn't mind seeing a 0 CT Poison, I believe that it is similarly unnecessary.

Thief
Quickening is either scrapped (contested) or moved to another job such as Time Mage. Either way, Thief would lose it.

Not OK with moving Quickening to Time Magic.  The AI won't use Quickening at all if it can use more than one other spell that uses MP.  It is best to just kill it off.

Mediator
Blackmail: 200 JP
Stall: 250 JP

Sure.

Oracle
Gains Frog
Life Drain: Non-reflectable
Spell Absorb: Non-reflectable

Don't mind.

Lancer
Gains Robes, Lose Shields
Change Jump's CT formula from 50 / Speed to 21 / Jump
Gains innate Two Hands

Samurai/Draw Out
Gains Longbows
Lose innate Two Hands. See Katanas under the Item spoiler to see why.
Draw Out requires a Katana equipped (or Longbow, if the above is implemented)

Not OK with Lancers gaining Innate Two Hands and +1 SP.  If this were to happen, then male Samurai would disappear from the metagame as physical damage dealers.

Similarly, I am not OK with making Katana force-2H.  If this were the case, then Samurai would become the only class that cannot equip a shield and use one of its native weapons at the same time.  I am also not OK with making Draw Out require Katana.  This will (a) make the Draw Out skillset much less accessible for every other job, and (b) allow Weapon Break to permanently silence the Draw Out skillset mid-battle, along with every point of JP invested into it.

Asura: 3 directional
Bizen Boat: 1 AoE (Arguably not really a nerf, since you're less likely to hit your own allies. I've heard about how the AI can be derpy with this ability)
Murasame: 1 AoE
Heaven's Cloud: Enemy Only and/or 100 JP
Masamune: 300 JP

All but Heaven's Cloud sounds like a nerf, and I'm not particularly OK with any of them:

  • Asura is bad enough as it is.  Nerfing its AoE won't help.

  • A 1 AoE Bizen Boat will almost never catch a mage midcharge given that these mages cast their spells from a distance. At the very least give it +1 range like Koutetsu.

  • Murasame now competes with buffed Cure, Cure 3, and Cure 4 spells. Nerfing Murasame will make people only more dependent on White Magic.

  • No strong opinions about Masamune at 300 JP as of now.



Ninja/Ninjitsu
Gains Heretic

Welcome change!

Scholar/Lore
Tornado: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable
Quake: 3-4 CT, Dmg_F(MA*8) and/or Reflectable

I would rather redesign Scholars with FFMaster's input than tinker with their existing skillset.  At any rate, nerfing Tornado and Quake in not one, but three areas simultaneously is a little overkill in my opinion.

Swords/Straight swords
Phoenix Blade: 15-20 W-EV%, Immune:Undead - Petrify - Crystal - Treasure, Initial: Reraise removed
Ice Brand: 13 WP

Don't agree with Phoenix Blade granting Immune: Crystal.  It goes against the spirit of the game in my opinion.  Fights would drag on.

Staves
Gold Staff: +1 Move

Wary about this. Gold Staff is decent as it is now, but it will provide a nice buff to battle mages (its primary users), who suffer from 3 base Move.

Guns
Stone Gun: 6 Range

If Stone Gun needs a buff, I would rather remove Init: Petrify than increase range, myself.  This would keep longbows and Romanda Gun more relevant to the metagame.

Bags
C Bag: MA bonus reduced/removed, possibly gets some status immunities
P Bag: Status immunities

Whatever changes, it would be nice if one bag healed on hit -- not for the healing, but for disabling physical attacks so that the AI can use quirky skills (e.g., Preach and Solution) more reliably.

Robes
Silk Robe: Immune: Berserk

I would rather see this on an underpowered staff (maybe Rainbow Staff or Holy Staff), but I'm fine either way.  I don't want to make Berserk immunity too easy to attain for mages given that it is supposed to counter them.

- Swap/Fix Yellow/Purple female Summoner's palettes

If we swap any palettes, we should vote first.  I personally prefer the yellow palette, myself.  I think it is a well-coordinated palette.



I'm pretty much OK with everything else at the moment.


Finally, I would like to add one nerf of my own to the list:

Staves
Healing Staff: Loses 2S
No more equipping two of these to reach ridiculous speeds.

Heroebal

Stone gun suggestion: how about make it earth elemental and give it like quake or maybe make it like an earth slash. Formula could be PA and/or MA based. Another option is could make it like a geomancy gun.

dw6561

I was actually thinking the same thing. An Earth elemental stone gun could double as a healing gun for units with equipment that absorb earth, and it could also be boosted. I don't think I want another spell gun if we were to implement the demi gun idea, but a non-faith based elemental gun would be a welcome change in my opinion. Although, I was thinking of just the plain old WP*WP damage formula instead of it being based on stats. Also, I don't know about a geomancy gun unless there's a way to make it AOE, because that's one of the selling points of geomancy along with 100% hits (which guns have anyway for the most part) and the status procs.
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This is FF Tactics. All the Tactics you can ever have, all in one byte.

reinoe

I agree with Gaignun on everything except these 2 Things I want to mention...

1.
Despite many of the complaints about Quickening, it's actually not that OP and the very best teams are only set up to use it occasionally at the start of a match or provide a long term boost for a very long match.  However in that regard Quickening is no different than Accumulate or Focus OR PA/MA save.  The only difference is that there has been a definitive way to get the A.I. to use quickening whereas the A.I. using Accumulate and/or Focus is less documented. 


2.
Maybe it's just because I pitched the idea and I want to protect my baby...

I really like Healing staff granting +1 speed. 
My dreams can come true!

Reks

Quote from: reinoe on July 11, 2015, 10:54:23 pm
I agree with Gaignun on everything except these 2 Things I want to mention...

1.
Despite many of the complaints about Quickening, it's actually not that OP and the very best teams are only set up to use it occasionally at the start of a match or provide a long term boost for a very long match.  However in that regard Quickening is no different than Accumulate or Focus OR PA/MA save.  The only difference is that there has been a definitive way to get the A.I. to use quickening whereas the A.I. using Accumulate and/or Focus is less documented. 


2.
Maybe it's just because I pitched the idea and I want to protect my baby...

I really like Healing staff granting +1 speed. 



The AI seems to use Accumulate/Focus when it can't otherwise deal damage or something useful.

The staff granting +1 speed is fine. The staff being capable of being dual wielded is a bit iffy.

I've grown... A distaste for speed + status teams. Now, that doesn't mean ALL of them. Ones like Truelight's, I like a lot.

But the ones that just drag a match out and just sap all hope of winning from the opposing team for the sole reason that they're faster, forcing both watchers and recorder to slog through what is usually 30+ minutes of the same thing over and over and over?

Kill them with fire.

I mean, teams that drag a match out are generally fine? That's acceptable and still a good strategy. It's when you lose because a guy can just shut you down, guaranteed, because they double or triple turn you that makes me hate being in Arena at times. I might be selfish in throwing such hate at that kind of team, but I'm pretty sure nobody wants to sit through that over and over. Have better things to do with our time.

And Healing Staff losing Two-Swords is more than enough to cut that loose.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy using the staff because mages are normally slow. I just hate it's abuse capacity at the moment.
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Gaignun

Are many mages dual wielding healing staves?  I am primarily concerned with 12 SP ninjas, myself.

I'm cool with the SP bonus, but not so much about getting the bonus twice.

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on July 12, 2015, 03:23:39 am
Are many mages dual wielding healing staves?  I am primarily concerned with 12 SP ninjas, myself.

I'm cool with the SP bonus, but not so much about getting the bonus twice.


As far as I've seen people prefer to give most mages who have them Short Charge.

It's the Ninjas, mostly.
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Shintroy

Heavily Time Mage getting non time magic spells. Poison, Bio, Regen were never considered time magic spells.
FF12 and further don't count


By far the best idea so far is the Two hand and Katana change WKWeigraf suggested. Samurai having Long Bows comes in second.

Since Katanas could have the forced 2H change then can I get a 2 range Masamune?
Some day my people will be free.

Elmdork

Samurai could gain innate access to bows and/or spears and I think it'd be okay. If ff master insists on keeping breath procs, that could give a decent reason to. They would also need 2h access and probably a wp nerf to make work though.

Scholar needs overhaul.. stats and all. why choose wizard when the scholar has better HP/pa/equip and innate access to lore that also needs reworking.

Time mage is pretty good at 9 speed, with innate access to the healing staff you get an easy 10 speed mage. They are slightly dwarfed by the mediator in terms of stats, but I think the key lies in the abilities. You want a 10 speed caster that has mp and decent ma? TM has their place. Mediator with white magic is more popular than with time magic because it's a better rounded unit, though either are fine.

Summon magic isn't bad. I would loves me some more damage on my summon units, but what you pay for jp-wise is utility. You get a nice choice of elements, statii, tons of unevadable elemental magic and support with huge aoe on everything. With the tools available, you can drop 200+ damage Shiva/Ifrit/ramuh which are unevadable, or short charge drop big summons if you fear you'll be mid charged.
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Eating my wings to make me tame
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Heroebal

I think an easy fix for breath procs on lancer's spears would just to switch the breath proc damage formula from ma based to PA or SP or PA+MA or PA + SP(<-- maybe this one since those spears give +sp). Could lower the *8 to like *6/*4 if the damage output is too high at *8.

Shintroy

If Katana gets changed to forced 2 Hand Paladin should lose the ability to equip them. Katana could always be replaced with flails for Paladin too. Ninja could gain Katana proficiency if Katana becomes forced 2 Hand as well without being OP.

Two Hands still has a place in arena even with the forced 2H katana change. Definitely doesn't have to be removed, and I still think it's powerful enough to keep its 500 JP cost.

With Samurai no longer having innate Two Hands, they could use a buff in PA as well since they'll no longer have Two Hands + Concentrate/Attack Up. 10 PA/9 MA for males and 11 MA/9 PA for female doesn't sound OP since, out of all the armored classes, samurai has the worst weapon options and no access to shields. Rouroni's spear suggestion for samurai also makes sense. 2 Range, forced 2H masamune with Concentrate/Attack Up vs 2Hand Spear? We would see so much variety in Samurai builds that's for sure.
Paladin loses Katana proficiency for Flail.
Nin
Some day my people will be free.

Shintroy

No idea what happened to the rest of my previous post.

Would the AI know to use brave and faith songs and dances? I really like the idea for having more ways to increase, and finally decrease, brave and faith. This adds a lot of versatility to Arena since we'll have more Silver Bow, magic proc weapons, ninjitsu, and use of the dance and sing skill set.

Would giving lancer the Lancet ability be possible? I like the sound of an ability to drain both HP and MP being in a usualy unused skill set.

Lancet - Rng 2 - AoE 0 - Vert 1 - CT 0 - MP 10 - Formula AbsHP_(?) AbsMP_(?) - Physical Evade

No idea how the formula could work without being OP.Probably something like geomancy but better.

Speaking of absorb abilities, Oracle's HP and MP absorb spells could use a change. I believe it's based off the target's HP and not the casters. Either way they're both really weak abilities even with a max HP unit factored in. Can it instead drain 50% HP or MP? Maybe base it off of the user's max HP and MP. Not possible to make these spells OP since they're included with status effects. Units using these spells will probably have to choose between status and HP/MP draining abilities.

Really looking forward to SP altering abilties being removed. We could probably have some teams rely on quick and 00 CT performances. There needs to be more teams as badass as CT5Holy's Delay Buster.
Some day my people will be free.

Gaignun

July 15, 2015, 05:07:43 pm #1756 Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 05:23:27 pm by Gaignun
It is my humble opinion that no unit should be able to reach 12 SP without making some serious sacrifices.  12 SP is significant, since it is the value at which Haste grants an additional point of SP.  If units can hit 12 SP while retaining destructive potential, then 8 SP units like Paladin become quite unpalatable.

This means allowing no weapon to grant +1 SP while also doubling as an effective melee weapon, like knives.  Healing Staff gets a pass for now because all classes that can equip it have 8 base SP.  (Time Mage has 9 SP, but suffers from lousy HP and MA, so it's fine.)  However, letting Healing Staff be dual-wielded makes it too effective on Ninja, since Ninja can use Healing Staff for breaks and Kagesougi.

In fact, seeing how Thieves have a whopping 10 base SP and have the easiest time reaching 12 SP, I wouldn't mind seeing them lose an extra 10 base HP.  This change isn't so much to weaken Thieves as it is to buff Paladin and male Samurai by comparison.

Quote from: Shintroy on July 13, 2015, 04:29:53 am
With Samurai no longer having innate Two Hands, they could use a buff in PA as well since they'll no longer have Two Hands + Concentrate/Attack Up. 10 PA/9 MA for males and 11 MA/9 PA for female doesn't sound OP since, out of all the armored classes, samurai has the worst weapon options and no access to shields.


If female samurai have 9 PA, male samurai would have 11 PA, if I'm not mistaken.

Another word of caution to giving lancers innate two-hands: If lancers have innate two-hands, then spears will need to take a hit to WP to prevent lancers from 1HKOing everything with a pulse.  Unfortunately, this will cripple the Jump command: Jump is not affected by two-hands, so Jump will deal less damage across the board.  Jump will also deal less damage than a simple two-handed melee strike unless the lancer equips a shield for whatever reason (which won't be easy if lancers also lose access to shields.)

Considering how difficult it is to use Jump to begin with, I would not recommend giving lancers innate two-hands.  Otherwise, lancers will become incompatible with their own skill set.

Reks

Quote from: Gaignun on July 15, 2015, 05:07:43 pm
It is my humble opinion that no unit should be able to reach 12 SP without making some serious sacrifices.  12 SP is significant, since it is the value at which Haste grants an additional point of SP.  If units can hit 12 SP while retaining destructive potential, then 8 SP units like Paladin become quite unpalatable.

This means allowing no weapon to grant +1 SP while also doubling as an effective melee weapon, like knives.  Healing Staff gets a pass for now because all classes that can equip it have 8 base SP.  (Time Mage has 9 SP, but suffers from lousy HP and MA, so it's fine.)  However, letting Healing Staff be dual-wielded makes it too effective on Ninja, since Ninja can use Healing Staff for breaks and Kagesougi.

In fact, seeing how Thieves have a whopping 10 base SP and have the easiest time reaching 12 SP, I wouldn't mind seeing them lose an extra 10 base HP.  This change isn't so much to weaken Thieves as it is to buff Paladin and male Samurai by comparison.

I agree completely.

In fact, I try to avoid using a Paladin as, aside from the tankiness, there's not much they can do if they're outsped (and giving them Slow protection is a must).

Speed is a touchy topic in general for obvious reasons, but in the end I'm of the mindset that it should not be so easy to abuse for the jobs that are already fast.
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Rev4nd

I don't know if I should post this here but the Dragon's Rod in game says that the Bahamut cast is 50% instead of 25% like the master guide says. I did some testing with dual wielding rods and Bahamut seems to be casted more than the other casting rods.

Shintroy

A lot, if not most, of the in game descriptions are off. Stick to the master guide for equipment data.
Some day my people will be free.